Conversion stories I: prettyinpink
I’m launching a new feature called “Conversion stories.” There have been a couple on this blog in the last month – abortion proponents who came here to duel and over time converted to the pro-life position.
I applaud these people for giving honest thought to pro-life apologetics, confronting their own ideology with it, and then publicly making the switch. This is a major undertaking.
I also applaud the dedicated pro-life conversationalists on this blog for their wit, knowledge, passion, honest concern for people behind the debate, and for not letting one falsehood go unanswered.
Today, we honor prettyinpink, aka PIP or Kate. PIP politely introduced herself to us a month ago as one who “used to be blindly conservative, but sometime during high school I became an active liberal.” Somewhere, though, during her 378 (!) posts, PIP changed her thinking. Here is her story.
First, meet PIP on this video a friend and she made of the song, “You can call me Al.” (PIP is a big fan of Simon & Garfunkel.)
PIP’s story….
I’ve been a liberal ever since I started to make my own opinions. In middle school, I was conservative, because that is what my friends were. [But] I began looking at all of the arguments, and I tended to choose the most empathetic viewpoint, which tended to keep me on the liberal side of things.
I always felt pro-choice WAS the most empathetic view because it seemed really cruel to force someone to stay pregnant considering all of the problems it may cause in our increasingly stressful and at times unforgiving society….
At the time, I kept thinking “if I were pregnant, people would stop talking to me. I would drop out of high school and never get the dream job I’ve always wanted. And these people are wanting to force these women into these situations.” It seemed so asinine to think that this tiny clump of cells was worth more to them than the lives of the mothers.
Because I’m a big fan of science many of my previous debates have been in favor of evolution, but that got very tiring…. I thought it would be more fun to debate something that was more of a gray area. This site is very fun and extremely addictive. But when I started listening to the arguments, more and more I started to agree with the pro-life side.
Although I never approved of late term abortions it dawned on me that my arguments couldn’t work on any other group of the population, except, in my opinion, the unborn. I realized how ridiculous it was.
But I couldn’t bring it to myself to become pro-life because of everything that came with it. I couldn’t see myself protesting at Planned Parenthood, because at least they offer health services, for example. I checked out Feminists for Life (I am a big feminist myself), and reading their mission statement I thought “bingo. This is what I’m looking for.”
I guess right now I should classify myself as a liberal pro-lifer. I mean, I still support IVF, birth control, sex education, and all that, but responsibility is very important in my understanding of these issues.
And I’m still pretty liberal on a lot of other issues (although, the Oklahoman idea of liberal is pretty much the American idea of centrist).
I think that, once we have the opportunities to help every woman in need, abortion will stop being a symptom of a society that makes a woman choose between education and children. We will become a society that allows both, and since abortion would be practically meaningless, we can begin to make elective abortion illegal.

If you still relish the grey area debates….
You mentioning “repsonsibility” suggests to me that you’ve fallen prey the the naturalistic fallacy, or more appropriately, the is “is ought” thing.
It’s interesting to note that within that lengthy post, there is actually no treatment of the debate, beyond you using the word responsibility, and it’s kind of meaningless.
A conversion such as this is no small thing, and I hope you’d agree it’s equally fascinating… so please elaborate.
Best,
Cameron
Kate, I am so encouraged and inspired by your story and Samantha’s story…I am so thankful for you two!
APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE!
Well you can tell the world about this
You can tell the nation about that
Tell’em what the master has done
Tell’em that the gospel has come
Tell’em that the victory’s been won
He brought joy,joy,joy,joy,joy,joy,
Into my heart
“Fools,” said I, “you do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.”
“Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you.”
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed in the wells of silence.
He was singin’ on his knees
An angry mob trailed along
They shot my brother dead
Because he hated what was wrong
He was my brother
Tears can’t bring him back to me
He was my brother
And he died so his brothers could be free
He died so his brothers could be free
And so you see I have come to doubt
All that I once held as true
I stand alone without beliefs
The only truth I know is you
Blessed are the stained glass, window pane glass.
Blessed is the church service, makes me nervous
Blessed are the penny rookers, Cheap hookers, Groovy lookers.
O Lord, Why have you forsaken me?
I have tended my own garden
Much too long.
We come on the ship they call the Mayflower
We come on the ship that sailed the moon
We come in the age’s most uncertain hour
and sing an American tune
Sound of Silence is one of my most loved songs….My high school vocal ensemble did a rendition of it paired with scarborough faire….It was the most beautiful pairing EVER.
Great taste in music. :D
Cameron and SOMG,
As long as I’m quotin’ the “Great Ones”, here’s one for you…
He was a most peculiar man.
That’s what Mrs. Riordan says and she should know;
She lived upstairs from him
She said he was a most peculiar man.
He was a most peculiar man.
He lived all alone within a house,
Within a room, within himself,
A most peculiar man.
He had no friends, he seldom spoke
And no one in turn ever spoke to him,
‘Cause he wasn’t friendly and he didn’t care
And he wasn’t like them.
Oh, no! he was a most peculiar man.
He died last Saturday.
He turned on the gas and he went to sleep
With the windows closed so he’d never wake up
To his silent world and his tiny room;
And Mrs. Riordan says he has a brother somewhere
Who should be notified soon.
And all the people said, “What a shame that he’s dead,
But wasn’t he a most peculiar man?”
Thanks Alyssa,
Those were a tribute to PIP who thinks Simon and Garfunkel are the bomb! It’s just something else that we share…
mk
Everybody, feel free to ask me questions!
And thank you for your support :)
Cameron,
Let me know what you would like me to elaborate on. I just came to realize that I could no longer justify killing a human being for reasons other than health issues. And most of all, I realized that abortion actually exploits women, and Feminists for Life points it out beautifully. Once we revamp the aid programs and build more support systems, women no longer have to choose between going to school, having a career, and being pregnant. I don’t think she should have to. Again let me know if you have any specific questions you would like to answer.
Alyssa- Invest in a Simon and Garfunkel CD! You won’t be disappointed! (I own all of them XD plus a few solo albums)
Kathy’s Song is one of my favorites..and American Tune! You picked a good selection MK!! Recently I got Wednesday Morning, 3 am on vinyl.. It’s pretty exciting.
PIP,
Did you listen to Dougie MacLean yet?
I think you’re gonna like him…
mk
PIP,
I guess I still don’t know what you converted from. The position you describe in your post is generally how most pro-choicers feel right now. That is, once society has provided enough means to help a woman through a unintended pregnancy, provides a better comprehensive sex education, and gets rid of the ridiculous social stigma of being an unmarried (teenage) mother, then abortion will become obsolete.
I just wanted to point that out. We have more in common with pro-lifers than we think, and we aren’t the demons they paint us to be.
I checked out Feminists for Life.
It was a pretty good website.
Great story, prettyinpink.
And yeah — “once we revamp.”
The long dark chapter of abortion says far more about our culture than about individual women who choose abortion. A culture is capable of leading individuals pedagogically. We have schools, after all; we even have forced indoctrination in our universities for those students whose free expression of ideas threatens the regnant ideologies of academe. The law is also a pedagogue; indeed Paul points this out in Romans.
However in the matter of abortion, the value of life was discarded as a value to be taught, because a higher value was personal prerogative, unborn be damed (c.f. Mary Ann Glendon http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/00291182) The notion that the autonomous self trumps all communal claims — including the most intimate claim of an unborn child on its own mother — was triumphantly proclaimed as the attainment of Just What Women Needed.
Feminists for Life proves such notions nonsensical, obviously.
When the culture again leads in showing how unborn life IS valued (in law forbidding abortion, in supporting women with laws that force their children’s “fathers” to support the child financially until 18 years of age, and in private institutions that assist mothers going it alone), then the long night will be over.
Meanwhile, the repudiation of the pedagogy of death must continue. Those who have led the culture off the cliff — those who have led people there by turning them into moral lemings — must be opposed at every turn. They are not truth-tellers, they do not value life, and they destroy lives from gestation on through the generations to the deluded grandmother marching for “choice.” Their victims walk among us every day.
How do we heal the wounded AND defeat a callous enemy? That’s the question we face every day.
I saw the video for Caledonia. Very pretty.
Should I invest in an album?
Yeah, Stephanie, I do realize that. I am just more pro-life now than pro-choice. If there was a line I just recently hopped across it. While pro-choicers generally let the mother choose (their premise of the debate), pro-lifers view it as attempting to justify killing one’s own child..somethign inherently wrong and must be stopped. Right? That’s how I see it, anyway.
Scott, nice post!
PIP, funny video. I’m glad to see that you have compassion for unborn babies and switch to pro-life.
PIP: I have already requested a few CD’s from Lala.com, and I hope I get them. Music is my escape, along with books. :D
PIP
“Let me know what you would like me to elaborate on.”
Thanks!
“I just came to realize that I could no longer justify killing a human being for reasons other than health issues.”
That
PIP,
My husband just buys the songs I want off the internet. I don’t care for his Live albums.
I’ll be happy to give you a list of my fav’s.
this is one of my favorites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y8VCk4IZsI
This one has great words…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFCudS3QwGw
If you want to buy a CD let me know and I’ll point you to a good one…
mk
PIP,
Is there something in particular at the Feminist for Life web site that moved you with regard to abortion??? I can’t find the “exploitation” thing readily without reading through all the topics… and I don’t have time for that.
Cameron, I would not presume to speak for Kate, but I personally in the midst of this debate came to realize that I consider the right to live to be paramount and to supercede all other rights. If the rights to life are juxtaposed, then the mother must come first, of course; however, I do not consider the mother’s right to sexual pleasure more important than the conceived child’s right to live. Women certainly have the right to do as they please in their sex lives, and I would advocate whole-heartedly the use of the more effective contraceptives in conjunction with each other (I am both a liberal pro-lifer and a Protestant). I just think that people should realize that, as Bethany has stated many times, the birth control is available for free use, and that pregnancy is a consequence of the act of sex, altho an avoidable one if correct measures are taken.
MK I have a question for you…
Are you a Carey Grant fan? I am watching Father Goose, which I L O V E, and it has occurred to me that this seems to be a movie that would appeal to you.
Oh Honey,
You just said two of my favorite words in the world…
CARY GRANT…
My husband knows that there are only two men in the whole world I’d leave him for. Paul Simon and Cary Grant! Thank goodness Cary is dead. And Paul is married!
Really tho, I was just having a Cary Grant conversation with my sis-in-law yesterday. The man is AWESOME…
Great, now I have to go and take a cold shower…way to go Samantha…
What station are you watching?
mk
Haha, MK…you sound like my mom….only she’s a Richard Gere fan…
*giggles heartily*
Cold shower, MK? FOR SHAME!! hahaha
Hey,
Just think of the cold shower as NFP…
Told we weren’t opposed to the dirty deed…
Oh shoot, I just got cold water all over the keyboard…
Does thinking about sex with a dead man count as adultery?
Dang, back in the shower for me…
Can’t we talk about Rock Hudson? Much safer…
mk
Don’t tell anybody, but I’ve got a secret hankerin’ for Johnny Depp too. But I’ll deny it in public. After all, he’s alive. Besides, doesn’t everybody have a hankerin’ after JD?
LMAO. MK, you “harlot”, you. Sometimes I think you pro-lifers think about sex more than we do. *giggle*
Not that it’s a bad thing. :D
Yeah, I tell you what…I think way too many women were disappointed about the Rock Hudson thing.
What’s also really sad is that one of my most attractive male friends just came out of the closet. He’s a sweet, funny, talented, intelligent, GORGEOUS man. Damnit, girls…we lost another one. *sad* It took him 19 years to admit that he was gay. I love him all the more for being honest to himself and to others.
MK:
*looks up at giant five-foot poster of JD plastered to her dorm room ceiling*
*drools slightly*
Not everyone has a hankering for Mr. Depp…I am perfectly composed and not thinking of hi….*quickly runs to shower*
*shifty eyes*
Im watching a DVD my Dad sent me…
Ive gotta tell ya, a guy who can wear eyeliner as comfortably as Mr. Depp just doesnt really do anything for me. I personally prefer Matthew McConnaghey and that Texas drawl. Im all about cowboys.
Alyssa,
My hands are getting pruney…
I want a giant 5-foot poster of Johnny.
My youngest son is named Johnny (6). Everyone thinks he’s named after his father and St John Bosco…
And I’m not sayin’ that he isn’t…
mk
How ’bout that Don Knotts? or ummm…Fred Astaire?
Captain Kangaroo?
I’m dyin’ here…
mk
Pshaw, you girls and your Johnny Depp. No, no, I require accents in my fantasy men. There’s a little known English actor, James D’Arcy…he makes me smile in that special sort of way. I have a thing for accents, though.
Samantha,
Yes, he does wear eyeliner…
But when he wears it he’s a piiiiiiirate
Shiver me timbers…
It’s cold water time again…
How bout those cubbies? Gardening anyone?
HisMan? A few verses to cool my soul?
Heeeeeeelllppppp…
Samantha;
“cameron, I would not presume to speak for Kate, but I personally in the midst of this debate came to realize that I consider the right to live to be paramount and to supercede all other rights.”
This reminds me of the violinist analogy… and forcing people to donate organs so that another person might live… if in fact, the right to live is paramount and supersedes all other rights. Fortunately, it does not.
“If the rights to life are juxtaposed, then the mother must come first, of course; however, I do not consider the mother’s right to sexual pleasure more important than the conceived child’s right to live.”
You make it sound like people have abortions because it
Ahhhhh,
Saved by Cameron. If anything could throw cold water on the party, it’s him!
Thanks, Cam, I needed that…
Okay,
back to reality!
mk
MK, wow!
Hahahaha….
*stares at pictures of her amazingly attractive boyfriend to cool off as well*
But I also agree with Samantha about Matthew….my mom says that she’s too old for him (she thinks he’s completely fine, too). She then states…yeah…I’m about twice his age, probably….that’s ok, I’ll take 2 of him!!
Alyssa,
Give your mom a high five for me!
After all, we’re only dreamin’ right?
Oh there’s the phone…you don’t think it’s Johnny or Cary, do ya?
Quick, where’s my lipstick?
Dang, Toll free call…
Where were we?
Oh yes, we’re only dreaming, right?
mk
HEHEHEH.
Unfortunately so. But I do think my boyfriend is just about the gosh-darned sexiest man alive. (He’s a Marine…obsessed with keeping in shape….*drools a bit more*).
I can’t help it, MK!! I’m weak, oh so weak!!
I think with the amount of cold water I’ve gone through today, you could hydrate an entire third-world country. *sigh*
Hey,
This’ll throw ya…
I’ve got a thing for John Cleese too. If that freaks you out, don’t worry, it freaks me out too.
I mean the man is funny, but sexy?
No accounting for taste, but I’d rendezvous with him. I’d never be bored, that’s for sure.
Say no more, Say no more. Wink and a nod.
Cameron, I hate this argument, I really do, as a reformed pro-choicer, but it is the heart of the matter here. A natural and beautiful consequence of sexual intercourse is pregnancy; it is not like this breast cancer from abortion causal correlation debate we have going on, but is a fact. If a woman does not want to have a child and absolutely knows that she cannot afford to carry a pregnancy to term to give a child up for adoption, she should not have sex. If she cannot face the possibility of the failure rate of combined contraceptives, she may investigate permanent options, such as a hysterectomy or vasectomy. However, as I am sure you know, intercourse is not the only way to achieve orgasmic pleasure, and the penis should simply be kept out of the vagina if a child one does not want.
Speaking of peculiar men,
Did we scare Cameron off?
Just when I was comin’ back to earth…
Warning Will Robinson…Danger! Danger!
Go Sam Go…Go, Go, Go!!!!!
Gotta go enjoy the warm day while there’s still some left. Be back later…
and no fair talkin’ about George Clooney while I’m gone…
mk
Alyssa Im watching a movie now on TBS with Richard Gere in it. Im not sure which one it is, but he has long hair and Sean Connery is King Richard….
Oh heaven help me!
Did you just say Sean Connery? I’m running, not walking away from the computer…
Goin’ straight to the confessional….
I’M COMIN’ LORD…HOLD THE DOOR!!!!!!!
hahahaha, MK, you poor thing….what are we women supposed to do with so many gorgeous men on the planet? I have a huge for too many band members too…*smacks self*
MK –
You and I have the same taste. weird. But I have to admit, I have something for Gary Olman. I have no idea why. Maybe it is the accent thing?
I absolutely LOVE Father Goose! My son actually likes to watch it too, but I think he is mostly looking at the girls. ;-)
PIP – I’m very proud of you! I still remember our first debate on Partial Birth Abortion. Gotta tell ya, I didn’t think you were convertable. ;-)
Happy dances!!!!
that should say “I have a huge crush for…”
hehehe. I can’t even type correctly. TOO MANY GORGEOUS MALES KEEP DANCING THROUGH MY HEAD.
*thinks of boyfriend*
*gives him a call*
*will see you all later*
*giggle*
I have a huge for too many band members too…
Which brings us full circle to Paul Simon and PIP!
Good Work Pip.
You too Samantha. When’s your conversion story?
Talk to y’all tonight….
mk
Haha MK you crack me up all the time! Valerie, I love that little girl who has the imaginary friend, Gretchen, and she makes him put Gretchen in the little boat with them…. Its such a funny movie. Operation Petticoat is pretty good, too. I really like the movies where Carey Grant costars with Doris Day…she is one of my all-time favorites! Have you ever seen That Touch of Mink? I can see MK breaking out in a rash as Carey Grant propositions her… And my favorite Doris Day/Rock Hudson is Pillow Talk.
I am about to spoil the mood here, so if you are enjoying all the cold showers, don’t read this.
Cameron –
I do have to say that I don’t understand the whole smoker analogy. Someone smokes. They get cancer. and somewhere in there if you are pro-life then you are to deny this smoker of treatment. But that is not true.
Here is the truth in using that analogy:
Pro-life: A smoker gets lung cancer. He needs to go through Chemo/Radiation in the hopes of getting better. He needs medication so he is not in too much pain. He needs to realize that he needs to quit smoking so he can hopefully prevent this from happening again.
Pro-Choice: A smoker gets lung cancer. Take out the left lung. Won’t have to deal with cancer anymore. Continue to smoke all you want, you still have the right lung.
There is a huge difference.
You see, we don’t deny the pregnant woman medical treatment. We WANT her to get medical treatment. Pre-natal care is a must when pregnant. So where is it that you believe we don’t want the smoker to have medical treatment. It is a stupid argument that makes no sense! We do think she needs to take responsibilty, just as the smoker needs to take responsibiltiy and not blame the tobacco industry. Just as the pregnant woman needs to take responsibility and not blame the child.
Any questions?
Cameron:
“Conservatives have been cutting aid and support (Medicaid/WIC/CHIPs) in response to paranoia that undocumented workers are parasitizing our tax-payers via social services.”
Call for references.
You’re citing a particular action, and attributing a specific motive to it.
Why should this connection be given credence? Do you have a source that demonstrates a connection between the claimed motive and the claimed action?
If not, where do you come by this point of view?
Cameron, your own way of reducing reality to easily digestible generalizations about entire classes of people belies your advocacy for the courageous willingness to embrace complexity that you claim pro-choice people possess, and pro-life folk do not.
Operation petticoat!!
I LOVE that movie!
PiP –
I forgot. Feminist for life is a wonderful organization! I support them as much as I can. They have great idea’s that are already working in some college campuses.
These are very interesting conversations you ladies are having. Let me throw in my two cents:
johny Depp: He’a a dork, lives in France and bashes America. Good riddance
Sean Connery: was good in the Bond films, but ever since….
Cary Grant: overkill on him, he’s too pathetic. .
The best actor ever is Gregory Peck, ever see him in 12 O’Clock High?
oohhhhh…. Gregory Peck!
Now I’ve gotta go take a cold shower.
Wasn’t he the one in “A Gentlemans Agreement”? I’ve never seen 12 O’clock high. Should I?
Gregory Peck is kinda creepy looking, at least to me. Then again, I’m with MK on the John Cleese thing: my parents love the British sitcom Faulty Towers, so I grew up with the guy. I remember having a little girl crush on him when I was, like, ten. I swear, it’s the accent.
I like JD as a person/actor, I just don’t find him desperately attractive. He reminds me of the character of Mellors in the third Lady Chatterley, to be honest. Not that it’s a bad thing, just not my type.
Aaaanyway.
Samantha, you’re correct: intercourse is not the only way to achieve orgasm. It is, however, one of the only ways to achieve that level of bonding: pregnancy is not the only reason for sex. I, personally, loathe the idea of going through pregnancy. I love kids and will adopt someday, but I have no desire to be pregnant. As I have no wish to undergo elective surgery, however, I choose to remain intact and use contraceptives. Now, when I marry, should I abstain from sex with my husband? I know I’ve asked this of MK and Valerie before, and both have answered similarly. Now, I’m curious as to what you would say.
I have a crush on Edward Norton. He’s a good actor and he’s quite cute. :D
even though no accent…
Yes, watch 12 O’Clock High. The men especially in your life will love it and my wife liked it as well..
It’s got it all. Great acting, war story and a plot that moves really well. Also shows great acts of courage and sacrifice, something much needed today.
“But all that still doesn’t change the fact that scare tactics photos are insensitive, exploitive of not only the fetus but the previous mother of the fetus, and only work temporarily. I’m highly disappointed in the pro-life movement for such juvenile and underhanded methods. Again I ask, don’t you have an argument good enough to stand on it’s own without gruesome photos?”
This is taken from one of Jess’s comments in a conversation with Valerie about Tuesday’s post. Im sorry it has taken me so long to comment, Jess, but I would just like to tell you that I personally was a rude, liberal, staunch pro-choicer when I came to this site only two months ago with the express goal of refuting every point the pro-lifers made. The photos I have seen of the embryos/fetuses/babies that are “reduced” by elective abortion played the single largest role in my changing my mind about the morality of the procedure. Wednesday’s blog post features a picture of the head of a baby that was dismembered thru abortion, and the loss of such a perfect little life is sickening to me.
Good point SamanthaT. In my opinion and experience, the use of graphic images in exposing the truth about what abortion does to the child is the single most effective way in changing people’s minds.
They have a way of cutting through the rhetoric and philosophy and turning the hardest of hearts towards the child and away from this narcisistic focus on myself and what is best for me.
Less, I will also adopt, altho for reasons different from your own. I disagree with you that physical intimacy is the only way to achieve the deepest level of personal intimacy, for I believe that people who are incapable of having sex do form this bond with their partners. Now for your question.
Okay, I just want to make sure I have this information correct. You do not want to be pregnant, and I have no reason to believe that this is due to any specific medical problem from which you now suffer. You also do not want to have surgery to remove the organs involved in conception.
Well, first of all, I believe that if you are using contraception correctly, especially multiple forms, you are quite safe to begin with as well as responsible. However, as you know, no method is guaranteed to be safe. Given the fact that you have been offered the fail-proof alternatives to either abstain or to have a hysterectomy, and that you have chosen to do neither, and combined with my personal belief that a child’s right to be born once it has been implanted in your uterus supercedes your right to not be pregnant for no pressing medical reason, I would say that I beleive that if you should become pregnant, you should remain pregnant unless your pregnancy were to become life-threatening.
Andrew…
Are you just agreeing with me because you dissed Mr. Carey Grant? ;-)
“If a woman does not want to have a child and absolutely knows that she cannot afford to carry a pregnancy to term to give a child up for adoption, she should not have sex.”
You are confusing the responsibility for sex with responsibility for fetus.
“Pro-life: A smoker gets lung cancer. He needs to go through Chemo/Radiation in the hopes of getting better. He needs medication so he is not in too much pain. He needs to realize that he needs to quit smoking so he can hopefully prevent this from happening again. Pro-Choice: A smoker gets lung cancer. Take out the left lung. Won’t have to deal with cancer anymore. Continue to smoke all you want, you still have the right lung.”
very amusing… was I suppose to take this seriously?
Hi Less, I want to respond to something you said a while back.
You said that if you did get pregnant, then you would be comfortable in getting an abortion with no pressure.
My wife is currently expecting so we have not looked at adopting, but I would be very happy to adopt your child if you were to become pregnant.
This has been on my mind..
Sorry Samantha, Carey Grant is dominated by women in all of his movies and he usually plays a weak character who bounces around according to what they tell him to do.
Funny, yes, but ultimately I end up not getting his flicks.
“Cameron, your own way of reducing reality to easily digestible generalizations about entire classes of people belies your advocacy for the courageous willingness to embrace complexity that you claim pro-choice people possess, and pro-life folk do not.”
Again.. .finding fault with me personally and employing the two wrongs make a right defense.
Good work Scott!
Here are the infant mortality rate reports… most of which initially spun out of a New York Times article a few weeks ago.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Infant+mortality%22+rise
The connection to medicaid cuts and rising infant mortality rates is reasonably infered from the following scientific peer reviewed research which demonstrates significant correlation between access to medicine and any number of prenatal/postnatal outcomes for mother and child.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=medicaid+%22infant+mortality%22&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search
Cameron, I really dont think Im confused. In fact, for the first time, I think Im exactly the opposite.
You have stated that I am confusing the responsibility for sex with the responsibility for a fetus. Responsibility is, quite simply, accoutability for one’s actions, according to dictionary.com. A person whose actions have conceived the life of another is accountable to the conceived to see that he is delivered thru pregnancy as safely as possible. So, you see, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Andrew, it isn’t the child I have a problem with. I don’t love kids, though I think that has more to do with my current age and less to do with my actual feelings on the matter.
It’s the pregnancy I dislike. I very much dislike the idea of being in that condition for nine months: it’s extraordinarily distateful to me. It isn’t a fear, just an entire dislike. There might come a time when I change my mind, but right now, that’s the stance. If it wasn’t for that, I’d not have an abortion.
Less, I really am honestly not intending to sound condescending, altho Im sure that is how this is going to come across.
Step outside yourself, if possible, and just consider what you just said. You are actually willing to kill a living human being simply because you find the state of pregnancy “distasteful.” You are not willing to endure nine months of discomfort to give life to another person. The adjective you used to describe pregnancy is what my eighty-three year old grandmother uses to describe my sixteen year old cousin’s tubetops.
Please just think about this for a couple of days and get back to me. I found myself having to admit, when I examined these kinds of comments honestly, that aborting a child because pregnancy is distasteful is not a far cry from slaughtering Germans for being handicapped.
Hey everyone, sorry I’ve been gone, I had to go shopping and pick up an Rx.
“That
Less, thanks for being open about this.
From my perspective as a husband and father, I can honestly tell you that my wife’s pregnancy has been one of the greatest things that has ever happened to me.
Also, I have noticed that women who have had children see their pregnancies as a high point in their lives. Many times I get the impression that they wished they could have more children and that the desire to have grandchildren once their own children are grown reflects this.
Ask the mothers on this site how they feel about this. Remember, this is something that a man cannot experience and it’s what “sets you apart” so to speak.
Besides the which, the love and attention you will receive when pregnant is truly astonishing. People want to know everything about what is going on, when is the next doctors visit, how soon can they visit in the hospital etc…
I thought all of this was annoying at first, but now I am relishing in it as well. It really is amazing and it brings me and wife together in a way that was not possible before.
Andrew, it’s not about the attention or the love, things like that. I loathe the idea of being in such a weakened state. I fully intend to go into a male-dominated, very active career. Becoming pregnant would jepordize this, and right now that career ranks far higher than any pregnancy. This is an addition to the fact that becoming pregnant is repellent to me. I have no desire to have something growing in me.
I realize that other women feel differently from me: I have watched my aunt and two sisters in law go through pregnancies, and watched my aunt give birth. It is not something I wish to do. While my feelings on children are fairly fluid (which indicates that my current desire to remain childfree will likely change), my feelings on pregnancy has never changed. I’ve never thought it to be something I’d like to do.
Were my feelings different, I’d be quite happy to keep the child, to be honest. I can say that at the moment, I have quite a good support system for said child, and even a pregnancy. It just isn’t something I want to do.
PIP, 2:41p, said: “I still believe in plan B because aborting a pregnancy is wrong to me, and plan B prevents pregnancy. That separates me from the others on this website, I know, but since plan B prevents pregnancy it does not commit an abortion and therefore is preferable to abortion.”
PIP, food for thought. Let’s just take away the word “pregnancy.”
Abortion ends a human life.
Plan B ends a human life, if the third mode of action Plan B lists on its website occurs: “It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary, and may also prevent the fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg). Plan B may also work by preventing it from attaching to the uterus (womb).” (http://www.go2planb.com/ForConsumers/AboutPlanB/HowItWorks.aspx)
But it is truly hard to say how often this occurs given that a fertilized egg fails to implant naturally quite often. We can’t assume that Plan B does this primarily or even that often (unless there are statistics as to otherwise? let me know), so it primarily prevents pregnancy via the other two pathways.
It’s hard to say how often Plan B ends human life, and most of those who take it do so to prevent such an occurance.
Whereas, that is abortion’s primary purpose.
That’s the difference for me, at least.
Samantha,
“Responsibility is, quite simply, accountability for one’s actions, according to dictionary.com.”
LMOA
That is not the definition which appears at dictionary.com.
While accountability is listed there as a synonym, accountability and actions do not appear in any of the definitions. This is, in no uncertain terms, your morally loaded attempt to lie and twist the language in order to presume guilt.
The correct definition, with respect to the abortion debate, is “burden of obligation.” Of course, that
Less, it is not “something” growing in you, it is somebody!
I know that when I speak to my daughter in my wife’s womb, she responds and reacts. She recognizes when her daddy is speaking to her and she begins to kick. This sends a shiver up my spine.
Somehow, without me being able to explain how, a bond has formed between my daughter and myself. Love, which is something I am not good at, has already staked a claim on me and I am somewhat unable to resist.
Think about that: A person I have never met, seen or heard already has penetrated deeply into me in a way I had no control over.
I can understand why you would not want to be pregnant if you think that the child in your womb is a “leech.” I would too, and I think that might be an unhealthy way to think about pregnancy.
Besides the which, doesn’t all of this point to a reality outside of ourselves? If it is possible to form a strong relationship with someone I have not met, heard or seen, then I think that points to a God who does the exact same thing. After all, He intercedes in our lives in much the same way we interact with each other ie. He uses other people to teach us things we might not otherwise understand.
At any rate, here is some totally unsolicited advice for working in a male-dominated environment: Men are not compassionate or sensitive. Deal with them straightforwardly. This does not mean you should be a b____. You know what I mean. You will be hated. There is a way for women to be succesful in a man’s environment and that is to be smarter and to work harder than everyone else.
Once you prove your brains and ability, then you can start to overcome their natural instinct to distrust you. This may take time, so don’t give up easily!
Cameron,
re
PIP
“But that’s what crisis pregnancy centers and the variety of heath and support programs are there for. To help the mothers. It’s entirely possible to support both the mother and the child in their situation. That is what pro-life is all about.”
CPCs do not have the resources, equipment, and expertise we are talking about PIP. We
Thanks Jill!
“PIP, food for thought. Let’s just take away the word “pregnancy.” Abortion ends a human life.”
Translation: if it has human DNA, it must be kept metabolically function by any means possible.
Sorry Beth…
We were talking about the noun, not the adjective. Of course, you’re welcome to advance the notion that all woman have that innate quality upon getting pregnant…
LOL
“We
Cameron, if someone is “responsible“, do they or do they not act with “responsibility”?
And in order to know what “Responsibility” means, you HAVE to know what responsibile means. Read the below definition from dictionary.com.
re
Andrew, I taught at a taekwondo school for four years: I was the only female teacher there. Believe me, I have loads of experience dealing with a male-dominated environment. I also have entirely male siblings, and have dealt with being the lone girl since I was born. I’ve always been honest and straightforward to a fault: because of my personality, I have almost exclusivly male friends. Honestly, working in a male-dominated environment is my preference: I’d rather have straight out attacks on me because of my gender than the backstabbing catiness that I’ve seen in female dominated environments.
You’re right, though, in hardcore male environments you do have to work harder than everyone else. I’m okay with that. Luckily, my career path is becoming more and more open to people of both genders, so hopefully I can help bring about further changes.
I’m not a religious person, Andrew: I find organized religion to be extremely dissonant with my own spiritual views.
Sam, I have thought about it. I’ve had my share of pregnancy scares, and thought about the options each time. After I figured out that they were just scares, I reviewed my options. I’ve always came up with the same answer. Even now that I have a very strong support system, including a campus that has low-cost prenatal care, I would choose to abort. It might be a human life, I might reap horrific karmatic consequences, and my decision might be selfish in your eyes. But ultimately, this is my choice.
PIP said: “You don
Sam, I have thought about it. I’ve had my share of pregnancy scares, and thought about the options each time. After I figured out that they were just scares, I reviewed my options. I’ve always came up with the same answer. Even now that I have a very strong support system, including a campus that has low-cost prenatal care, I would choose to abort. It might be a human life, I might reap horrific karmatic consequences, and my decision might be selfish in your eyes. But ultimately, this is my choice.
Wow, there you have it.
She has support. She has no health issues. She has prior knowledge that she doesn’t want children, and decides not to take permanent measures to make sure she does not become pregnant. She can afford a baby. She simply doesn’t want one. She simply dislikes babies and would kill one if she turned out to be pregnanct, simply because she finds pregnancy “distasteful”, and children “disgusting”.
THIS is what “choice” is all about. Sickening. The right to kill simply because you feel like it.
Less,
I know you are not a heartless person. You’ve shown that. So I can only believe that something is stopping you from realizing that this truly, really is a human being. Fully human. Total person. I know you say that you believe it, but I wonder if it has reached your heart yet.
I also can’t help wondering what went “off” somewhere. Why this aversion to pregnancy? What is it that you find repulsive?
I can tell you for myself, that with my first pregnancy I found it a “little” weird having another person moving around inside of me. Like a little, tiny alien had invaded my body.
For me, I think it was a control issue. I wasn’t the one causing this person to move, so how dare it do all kinds of things inside of me without my permission?
I can promise you that it didn’t last long, and I never felt that way with the next 5, but the first moments of “something” doing things to my body without my initiating it was kind of creepy!
Eventually, I gave in, rode the wave and grew to love it. But I am def. one of those people who wants to control every last detail in my life. Or at least I used to be. Giving all that nit-picking perfectionism over to God was the best thing I could have done. No more worries, mate.
Pregnancy kind of helped me realize this. I mean your very body is out of your control…and it can be disconcerting…
But once you let go, and let it happen, stop fighting it, it is actually one of the most liberating feelings in the world!
You’re growing a human being. It doesn’t get more powerful than that. (Not to mention, you get to boss them around for a few years.)
So I’m just asking you to think about this. Is it a control issue? Could being the only girl in your family have made you afraid of ever showing weakness? Do you feel like you always have to prove yourself by being in control of yourself at all times?
I know I’m doing some heavy duty amateur psychoanalyzing here, but everything else about you sounds like you’d make a great mom. And a great wife. And a great person. This just doesn’t click. Does that make sense?
mk
Hey again guys. Good to see all of you!
Bethany, I thought I’d jump in.
You have to know that as beautiful and miraculous as it is, pregnancy is not for everyone. Their reasons for not wanting a biological child should be just as respected as your reasons for wanting one. How Less personally feels is really immaterial, and doesn’t affect you in the slightest. I doubt she would get personal enjoyment out of an abortion. It’s not like she attempts to get pregnant just to terminate it. She just knows what choice she would make in the event of a pregnancy.
And given her discussion of adoption, and the fluidity in her opinion on wanting children, it’s wrong to say she, “simply dislikes babies”. To me, the case is she really dislikes the thought of being pregnant.
The control issues the pro-life movement has really disturbs me. The pro-life movement is largely Christian, so you guys do come with a package deal. Most lobby for making abortion illegal, but would also limit sexual freedom, encourage more traditional gender separated roles, and basically for one moral view of the world and our actions. The desire to limit the choices when people, especially women, are faced with a potentially destructive situation is frankly a little scary. The desire to control people’s lives is scary.
I have a lot of pro-life loved ones, but you better believe I don’t ask for their advice when it comes to this stuff. The judgement and control are unbearable.
You have to know that as beautiful and miraculous as it is, pregnancy is not for everyone. Their reasons for not wanting a biological child should be just as respected as your reasons for wanting one. How Less personally feels is really immaterial, and doesn’t affect you in the slightest. I doubt she would get personal enjoyment out of an abortion. It’s not like she attempts to get pregnant just to terminate it. She just knows what choice she would make in the event of a pregnancy.
And given her discussion of adoption, and the fluidity in her opinion on wanting children, it’s wrong to say she, “simply dislikes babies”. To me, the case is she really dislikes the thought of being pregnant.
Jen, if she really doesn’t want children, why is she willing to undergo an abortion surgery rather than a tubal? Either one is a surgery, but she prefers the one that destroys a human life…why?
No, you’re right..it doesn’t personally affect me if she aborts her child. But should I not be concerned with things that don’t personally affect me…like rape, for instance? Should I decide that since it doesn’t personally affect me, rapists should be able to choose to rape any woman they want…after all, doesn’t hurt me! Yes, I could easily turn a blind eye to injustices. Does that make it the right thing to do?
Less just said that she does NOT want children. Under any circumstances. She does not LIKE children, she thinks they’re “repulsive”???? I mean, do you hear how cold that sounds?
She implies that pregnancy is like a disease.
If she truly feels this way, why not take permanent measures, to make sure it doesn’t happen? It’s highly irresponsible, and that’s putting it lightly, to do something that you know can cause pregnancy (no matter how good birth control can be, sometimes it fails), and then to say, well if a life is created, I’ll take it. No question about it.
I’m sorry if you think I sound mean, but my goodness, look at the things that she said. Imagine that she said that stuff about a 1 year old, about terminating the life of a 1 year old. Then you might understand my outrage over this kind of thinking!
To further your comment, Jen, I want to remind you that not all pro-lifers are conservative, either. It dosn’t always come as a “package.”
Jen C –
I have always been pro-life.
For approx 15 years I considered myself Agnostic.
You do the math.
Just because I have gone back to the Catholic faith, doesn’t mean I have changed. And ask anyone on here. I very rarely bring my religion into the debate unless I am asked to. and on the rare occasion that I bring it up, I give fair warning so people don’t have to read it.
“The desire to limit the choices when people, especially women, are faced with a potentially destructive situation is frankly a little scary. ”
Please explain this to me. I don’t understand what you are saying. Why are women, especially, faced with potentially destructive situations?
Val, why did you decide to come back to the Church?
Awesome video PIP :-)
I notice on your website that you are a Ravenclaw, I am a Gryffindor
Bethany, I have stated numerous times that I don’t dislike children. I have numerous cousins, nieces, and nephews, and my mom is a teacher. I, myself, volunteer taught for nearly four years. It isn’t a dislike of children, and I don’t find them repulsive. At some point, I would love to adopt. I’m not particularly fond of newborns, but I think that has more to due (after some thought) with the fact that I have very little patience for things that can’t reason back. Having babysat/been around newborns since I was nine, I’ve found my cat to be more reasonable: even when he was a kitten. That doesn’t mean I find them repulsive, just that I don’t have a desire to ever birth one.
I don’t want to have a tubal ligation as I have no desire to have a surgery that, to me, is unnecessary. I’m on birth control, take it just as the instructions mandate, and use condoms. The odds are against me becoming pregnant. I’m not going to have an incredibly invasive procedure done simply because you are squeamish with the idea of me using birth control, or my having premarital sex, or (should absolutely everything fail) my having an abortion. Ultimately, it’s not up to you. If you find me a monster for making those choices, well and good: your reaction to my pixels has little to do with who I actually am.
MK, it isn’t a control issue. I accept that ultimately, I have very little control over my life, and I’m okay with that. All I can do, really, is react to what I’m given. I’ve been given very little patience: in reaction, I’ll go into a fast-paced career, and I’ll marry a guy who is, perhaps, a bit more willing to slow down.
No, I just don’t like the idea of being pregnant. It’s really more an issue of disliking the idea of sacrificing my career (dangerous and active as it is) for an unchosen and unwanted child, or changing the entire course of my life for something that was not only accidentel, but something that I clearly did not want or choose.
Nor is this a dislike of my femininity. I’m a very assertive sort of person: to that end, very few of my paramours have “been kind to the female” in me, to quote Lady Chatterley. My fiance is. He understands that just because I’m not the stereotypical female, that doesn’t mean I’m not a female, and treats me as a female. I absolutely luxuriate in that. I simply do not wish to be pregnant: it might be natural, it might be a part of being female, but I’ve no desire to participate. Frankly, when it comes down to it, why should I? I maintain that I am more than my uterus.
Thanks JK!
Excited for the new movie? And book? In the same summer?!
Cameron, I apologize for having typed “responsibility” when the word to which I was referring was “responsible.”
Bethany, thanks. If all he can find to respond to in my posts is what he considers a problem with an abridged definition, then I guess there’s not much debate left to be had.
Less, at some point it comes down to the fact that you are a woman and you have a uterus and a baby can grow there if you have sex. In a perfect world, babies would be like mortgages and require several appointments and credit checks for approval; in the real world, that isnt how things work. If you can consensually engage in an act that is known to be the only way to create the miracle of human life and agree with your partner that if such a miracle should be granted to the two of you, then you will snuff it out by tearing it limb from limb, then you are wise in saying that it is best for you not to have children.
Wow, I happen to read this every once in awhile when I have the time, and I know I’m coming in late, but why are you constantly questioning Less’s personal beliefs? I know she posted them, but just because you can imply that she murders unborn children (Samantha: “then you will snuff it out by tearing it limb from limb”) doesn’t mean you should. Do you really think that will change her mind about her position on pregnancy? Where’s the respect for other people’s opinions? It seems like you just cut others down on this site (ironic, too, since many of you are so pro-life).
Leah, I have not been disrespectful of Less’s opinion. I have yet to call her a slut or a whore, or to tell her that she will spend a firey eternity burning in hell for her sins… If you are opposed to my brief description of what an early abortion entails, I am all for any corrections you can offer. This is just my understanding that the majority of abortions occur in the first twelve weeks thru vacuum aspiration, which does in fact dismember the embryo/fetus. However, if you are offended, I think you must consider that 1) most everything posted on this blog is someone’s opinion and 2) abortion is not something people are going to discuss while picking flowers and sipping tea. It is a heated issue that hits close to home for a lot of people, especially women, and opinions on both sides must be heard and considered to progress.
Fine…I tried to make a point. Consider it someday when you calm down.
Actually, Samantha, I’d likely use herbal abortion methods, which simply initiates a miscarriage. No tearing limb from limb here. A baby could grow in my uterus: I choose to not allow it. Sex is not solely for procreation; the clitorus is evidence enough of that. And human life is frankly no miracle to me. We’re born and created and die every day, how is any of that a miracle? Puppies and kitties and armadillos reproduce the same way we do.
Frankly, as you implied that my ability to be a mother is directly related to my willingness to abort, I would say you are being subtly disrespectful. It’s beans to me, as this is a heated issue, but don’t go about claiming that just because you didn’t overtly call me names that you were respectful.
Also, it’s bad form to post the same thing on two different accounts.
And for the record, Samantha? I do sip tea the majority of the time during these arguments, and I’m also generally looking at various blogs containing cute baby animals: close enough to flower picking for you?
We don’t all get up in arms about this issue. I’m passionate about my right to choose, but that doesn’t mean I get huffy. My stance is pretty set, so I’m really not too concerned about the arugments. I’m here because it’s interesting to see the point of view of the other side, and because I frankly enjoy arguing.
“In a perfect world, babies would be like mortgages and require several appointments and credit checks for approval; in the real world, that isnt how things work.”
In a perfect world, every child would be born into a loving family that is able to support it. Rape would never occur and diseases wouldn’t exist. Adoption would be possible, because there would be families who actually want a child, regardless of it’s sex, skin colour or age.
In the real world, rape and diseases exist. Children are born into abusive families or to drug addicts. Not every family is able to support their children. There are more than 5 million children in the US foster care system that don’t meet expectations (too old, wrong sex, wrong skin colour) and whose chances to be adopted are slim to non-existant.
Leah,
but just because you can imply that she murders unborn children (Samantha: “then you will snuff it out by tearing it limb from limb”) doesn’t mean you should.
Well now, there’s the whole pro-life argument in a nutshell.
Just because you can snuff out a childs life by tearing it limb from limb, doesn’t mean you should.
Do you hear yourself? Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should?
And if you had read the entire post, you’d realize that everyone is getting along just fine. The point of the post is that PIP had a conversion and we are talking about why. Less joined the conversation. I’m sure she is a big girl and understands that we are going to question why she feels as she does. She’s not a simpleton.
It is a plain and simple fact that having an abortion often involves ripping a baby limb from limb and those of us who are pro-life, (new and old) have every right to wonder why you would choose this course of action as opposed to doing something that would permanently eliminate the possibility of it ever happening. ie: removing the dreaded uterus
It appears selfish to us that Less would want to keep her womb (when she by her own admission has no intention of EVER using it) and instead opt to “rip her unborn child from limb to limb”…How does it appear to you? Noble? As a “belief” system? As a reasonable option?
mk
Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
“An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered.”
“What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism.”
“To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.”
Ingrid,
In the real world, rape and diseases exist. Children are born into abusive families or to drug addicts. Not every family is able to support their children. There are more than 5 million children in the US foster care system that don’t meet expectations (too old, wrong sex, wrong skin colour) and whose chances to be adopted are slim to non-existant.
This is simply NOT true. There are actually relatively few children in foster homes that are not adopted.
The ones that are in foster care and remain there, do so because of legal reasons. They are simply not “qualified” to be adopted. Many times they are there temporarily until they can be placed back into their own homes.
And the solution to children not being loved and wanted, or being born into poverty or alcohol/drug abusive homes, is NOT to kill them. That’s just insanity!
Murder is not a solution. I don’t have all the answers and I certainly can’t “cure” the world, but I do know that murder solves nothing. NOTHING!
Abortion might appear to be a quicker and easier fix than feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and/or helping people overcome their addictions, but it adds to the problems. It does not eliminate them. That is an illusion of the evilest kind. I’m surprised you fell for it.
mk
The above quotes are all G K Chestertons.
And while he has a great mind, and I am a lover of humor and brilliance, for some reason G K just doesn’t do it for me the way Johnny Depp or John Cleese does.
Speaking of Ed Norton…shower time!
mk
Yeah, PIP
I’ll be barricading myself in my apartment in order to read Deathly Hallows uninterrupted (and so no one spoils the ending for me) because I won’t be able to read it until the 24th (I’ll be over in Italy til then)
The new movie looks really good from what I’ve seen through the trailers, I just hope they didn’t cut too much out. The group I’m going to Italy with are hoping to be able to see a non-dubbed version of the movie while we’re there.
Less, Im not sure what you mean about posting from two different accounts. The only account I have on here is the account under the name “SamanthaT.”
“…as you implied that my ability to be a mother is directly related to my willingness to abort…”
I have not implied anything. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it to you flat-out. But I will state it again: if you are willing to have sex and take the risk that you will get pregnant when you have been provided alternative methods to prevent pregnancy altogether and have rejected them, then you value your freedom for sexual pleasure above the life of another individual.
Less –
“I’m not going to have an incredibly invasive procedure done”
Having your tubes tied is not incredibly invasive. It is a very small incision in your belly button and the rest is done (I can’t remember the name – the technology that allows them to do that.) laprascopy (?). I had it done because of health reasons, and it is no biggie. Recovery is less than 48 hours. Recovery after an abortion is about a week isn’t it?
As you know, I am a believer in natural medicine. However, to quote a herbolist (she is getting her Masters in herbology) friend of mine, “anyone who aborts by use of herbs is like the person who defends themself is court. One is a stupid patient, and one is a stupid client.”
Not only is it dangerous, but can have more side effects than a surgical abortion. I know that many will glamorize it. I know that some have done it and have been fine. I also know one person who tried it. Afterward she had a 2 regular periods. When she was 16 weeks pregnant she found out it didn’t work. She saw the ultra sound and couldn’t go to an abortionist. Her child is permantely brain damaged. oh – did I forget to mention that because of all the herbs she took, she now has liver and kidney problems? Herbal medication is just as dangerous as chemical medication.
And as I have said before: Sex is not just for procreation. However procation is just through sex. You can’t have it both ways. You know that sex ’causes’ pregnancy. Just because you don’t ‘choose’ pregnancy in your mind, doesn’t mean your body will agree with your ‘choices’.
“I maintain that I am more than my uterus. ”
I totally agree with you. We are women because of our minds and actions, not because of our organs and breasts. I hated it when I was in my suport groups after the miscarriages and women would say “I don’t feel like a woman”, just because they miscarried. It was rediculous. Our minds is what sets us apart. Reproduction sets us apart to, but you don’t have to reproduce to be a woman. (how’s that for slipping in that I support you not having children of your own. That is a ‘choice’ I can live with. The other ‘choice’ I have problems with)
Ingrid –
Here is from another subject we had when foster care came up:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/03/the_freakonomic.html
from Jen”
“Of the 513,000 children placed in foster care, over 20% had case goals of “adoption”. That means 102,600 children should have been adopted, but only half actually were.”
from MK
“Okay, I’m worse at math than science but 102,600 is a lot less than 513,000. And if half of those 102,600 were adopted that leaves about 51,000 adoptable babies/children. ”
From Jen:
“Of the children waiting for adoption that had adoption listed as a case goal at the time of this report, 21,003 were under the age of 2. ”
Jen was getting her information from a government source. I beleive she has it in her posts…
Posted by: prettyinpink at April 28, 2007 10:22 PM
“Val, why did you decide to come back to the Church?”
Long story – but I will simplify.
Premature child = friends walk away because ‘they’ can’t handle it.
3 miscarriages with severe depression = more friends walk away because ‘they’ don’t want to deal with it.
Sister-n-law going through nasty divorce = parent-n-law sides with abusive SOB husband and family splits apart.
Mom going off HRT = Suicide.
We had no where to go. No where for help. No one to talk to. (my family is not around us, only his and we havn’t seen them in over 2 years. they are just 5 miles down the road from us too) Our marriage was falling apart. Divorce was being mentioned. Our dog (155 pound Mastiff) was becoming agressive from all the stress in the house. Danny’s autistic symptoms were getting worse because of the stress.
Stu decided he wanted to talk to someone about everything that was going on. He doesn’t like the idea of therapy, so I recommended he talk to a priest. So he made an appt. They talked for somewhere around 3 hours. When he came home, he was the man I married. It was amazing. So we started looking into going back to church (something his family never did). We have found friends that don’t turn their backs. We have found people that supported us when we needed it. We have found a great community that will be there no matter what. And we have found a purpose.
Trust me: never in my life did I think I would be one of “those people” who say “my life was spiraling out of control and then I found God.”
It has been an amazing ride!
PIP, You rock! Jeff Goldblum……Shower time!!
Valerie- Aww. I am really happy for you. I asked you because I had been thinking of returning. I decided to break away and be a “spiritual Christian” because I felt like a hypocrite, going to church but not believing in the doctrine. But then I became rather spiritually lazy and I thought “I need a community to keep me on my toes.” I have a lot of atheist friends, so most religious conversations involved arguing over the existance of God..hard to reinforce faith, you know?
I don’t think I could be a Protestant..I have been to a few services and found them uninspiring (no offense to the protestants on this board).
After school I’m going to think about this long and hard..any advice?
One more thing…my mom doesn’t want me to volunteer at that CPC because it is in a bad area :(
I told her that is where the CPC is needed, but she still wants me to find a different place to volunteer. Sad. :(
PiP,
I just want to stick my two cents in. I too am a “re”vert to Catholicism.
If I could give you any advice it would be to go slowly, read everything, ask a million questions, and remember that this is a journey, and as such will take twists and turns that you don’t expect.
Start a conversation with Himself, and speak to His mother. She will lead you, oh so gently, where you need to be.
God Bless,
Remember Val and I will be “thrilled” to answer any questions that you have..
love,
MK
PIP –
Do you have any idea’s of what Religion? One nice thing about Catholics is that you can go through a year long course (Called RCIA) before deciding if you want to join. You have all the resources you need for getting questions answered. Plus, you will be in a class with other people considering joining the Church so you also have them to talk to as well. (Even if you were raised Catholic – don’t know if you have ever said – It was awsome going through RCIA with Stu. I learned alot and remembered alot.)
Stu’s RCIA class started with I think 35 people thinking of joining. 9 people decided not to join. I’m telling you think so you know there is no commitment by taking the classes.
I agree with MK. Take everything slowly. Ask many questions. I have always been the ‘doubting Thomas’ in my family and have been encouraged to do so. Blind faith is worse than no faith at all, IMHO.
“But then I became rather spiritually lazy and I thought “I need a community to keep me on my toes.”
BINGO! I know how that is!
I went through Confirmation but I am not going to lie, our teacher was rather relaxed and our conversations were just reflection on a passage. We took out catechisms for some thigns, but it wasn’t a hardcore “this is the Catholic church’s beliefs and doctrin.” You know?
I will try to take things slowly, and let you know how it goes.
Hi folks,
perhaps I should take this from a different angle, because this concept was roundly ditzed the first time I brought this up. It has always seemed a wee bit weird to me, that we constantly point fingers and say “Oh, I would never ……” but fail utterly to know why we would ‘never’. It is in this vein that the following is proposed … we ALL have a lot of growing-up to do and age/experience is only a very small part of it.
We are all constructed of chemicals. Just saying many of their names can be downright confusing. One of the key groups of these chemicals are the minerals. They are so involved with the processes inside our bodies and they are not manufactured by us, so they must be eaten. If you have 90% of the minerals you need to live, depending on the kinds of minerals that are short, the deficit in experiences of life could easily double that percentage. Let’s use Leah’s experiences in France as one example. She is very bright … What would her life be if she could enhance it 20%? [This is NOT about fault, but once known, then maybe you can do something about it.]
One of the body’s key minerals for proper functioning is zinc. As a matter of fact some researchers attest to the fact that over 90% of all genetic birth defects could be avoided if adequate zinc and vitamin B6 were taken during pregnancy. (‘Zinc and Copper in Medicine’ eds Sarper & Karcioglu)
This same text also talks about 4 PHASES where zinc requirements are peaked. All four are particular ages of physical development. Phase I corresponds to earliest development period of 5-8 wks gestation … for optic and very earliest brain formation. PHASE II is the 3rd-trimester, to prepare all organ systems for post-womb life. [for instance, the pancreaqs with makes insulin and digestive enzymes, is only activated 2 days prior to birth.] PHASE III seems to be but a continuation of PHASE II with a finishing touch on organ systems, but immediately after birth. PHASE IV starts in puberty but easily extends to early adulthood.
Some drugs and burns, cuts can also increase our body’s demand for zinc.
A while passed before I found out that the main way that zinc is digested from food is a ligand called PgE2. Since then, I’ve thought that if cell’s were like the size of street blocks then the way our body uses zinc would look like the block’s lawns. Then each blade of grass: M(membrane…soil)-Zn(zinc …. the roots)-taurine(a small amino acid – the green shoot). [“Symposia on Taurine 1974 & ’76” eds A. Barbeau and R. Huxtable]
The plot now thickens, because several decades ago a Dr. Patrick Dunn of New Zealand who was a Obs/Gyn wondered if the women who choose to abort did so in a rational fashion [something touted by feminists during these years]. So, he traced the moods of women during pregnancy and found (as today) that over 80% of abortions were between weeks 7-10 [the lowest downward spike was week 8]. It was strange because these were precisely the times of greatest despondency. He also traced depressions for the 3rd trimester and postpartum depressions.
This phenomenon was so close to the timing for zinc, I wondered if the two were related. The feature that was an ‘aha’ moment for me was the knowledge of the influence of PHASE IV …. not only is it a time of co-ordination and zit-formation + extreme growth spurt by boys, but many girls have PMS + mood swings. Therefore, a pregnant teen was a shoe-in for pregnancy related depressions.
More on the taurine front … a baby makes as much taurine as it wants, but this ability stops when brain maturation ceases (@14 yrs). Therefore there is little taurine to tie any zinc to membranes.
Besides the presence of large amounts of zinc required by the mossy-fiber layers of the cerebellum. Taurine acts to cool down any excess excitability of all cell membranes. [It was first used as a medication to hamper epilepsy attacks.] A deficit of zinc means a deficit of taurine …. and a lack of an even temperament.
Recommendations: – if pregnant – 40mg zinc + 4mg copper + 500-1000mg taurine taken together each day. This is a very small amount of taurine – less than 1/3 tsp.
– for teens – 25 mg zinc + 2.5mg copper + 500-1000mg taurine taken together each day. [A person with PMS-symptoms would take the pregnancy amounts + 400mg of potassium.]
– for matured adults – 15 mg zinc + 1.5mg copper + 500-1000mg taurine taken together each day.
NB …. THIS SHOULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD AS A REPLACEMENT FOR MEDICATON. Meds are used to treat one (maybe two) things. Zinc in our bodies does literally hundreds of different jobs.
I sure hope you will give this your consideration.
I can tell you what converts right-to-life women to pro-choice: unplanned pregnancy.
“I’m pro-life, but I just CAN’T have a baby now!” –I hear this all the time (well frequently, anyway).
“‘I’m pro-life, but I just CAN’T have a baby now!’ –I hear this all the time (well frequently, anyway).”
In other words, “Im so dedicated to preserving the sanctity of human life that I am going to murder my own child.” The woman who says that is a liar, as well as a hypocrite.
…. or a convert to pro-choice.
(Not that there’s any shortage of pro-life liars and hypocrites.)
Anyone who would be willing to do that, was never truly “pro-life”. They would have deluded themselves by giving themselves that title in order to make themselves feel better.
If one REALLY believes abortion is murder, and believes because of that it would be morally wrong to abort, there is nothing that would cause them to think murder could ever be justified.
Actually, that would be a really interesting study for someone to do: find out how many abortion patients are “pro-life”, or rather, how many used to be right-to-lifers until confronted with their own unwanted pregnancies.
My bet: more than you’d expect. Probably more common among younger women.
To reiterate:
Anyone who would be willing to do that, was never truly “pro-life”. They would have deluded themselves by giving themselves that title in order to make themselves feel better.
If one REALLY believes abortion is murder, and believes because of that it would be morally wrong to abort, there is nothing that would cause them to think murder could ever be justified.
In that case, a lot of women who call themselves “pro-life”, aren’t, “really”.
That’s right Bethany. She couldn’t have been that pro-life to begin with. SoMg, I wonder if you have ever concerned yourself with a woman’s mental health, following abortion? I really doubt it. Don’t get me wrong, I do know of women that maintain that an abortion was “The best thing for me.” How about those that don’t? You seem so gung- ho on promoting abortions. I have NEVER once heard you mention the woman keeping the child. Sad. It just seems like all you want to do is kill, kill, kill!!!
There are also plenty on the flip side of that. Many pro-choice women have abortions, and they become pro-life afterwards.
SoMG, the reason why you can point out hypocritocal pro-lifers more easily than hypocritical pro-choicers is because the pro-choice category is more of an anything-goes section. It is akin to gnostic libertinism.
SoMg, Frankly I feel sorry for any woman that may come in contact with you. I think you do perform abortions. If you don’t, it is quite clear that you want to. I could never see you telling her that she has other options.
Heather, virtually all abortion clinics inform the patients of all their options as a matter of course.
But most patients have already made up their minds by the time they enter the clinic. And (despite what Operation Rescue and Jill would like to believe) changes of mind are pretty rare. Even if you offer to show them their sonograms.
Back to the control issues:
It scares me that pro-lifers (and religious people, in general, though I know all pro-lifers are not all Christian) have the unyielding desire to control nearly every social aspects of our lives, most notably sexual freedom and education. I realize that the fetishization of the fetus makes it almost idol worship for you people and the thought of destroying something you nearly deify for 9 months is earth shattering, but you have to realize something. The fact that the fetus loses it’s special status as soon as it’s safely out of the womb turns them into a suspect class, something we avoid at all costs in this country. It either gives or denies rights to a certain group of people (which can be debated because born persons are typically the only ones guaranteed rights). Giving a fetus rights to a woman’s organ only to take away those rights once it is born is illogical and unfair. Did I miss my window of organ rights once I took my first breath? Because damn, I wish I could have the mental fortitude to demand that awesome kidney you have over there. See what I mean?
It just strikes me as odd that most pro-lifers adhere to the ten commandments, several of which seem to be just toeing the line.
Do not worship any other gods before me.
–The dedication and near-worship of fetuses by some seem to get a little too close to that
Thou shalt not make for yourself an idol or any image of the heavens
–Those abortion pictures seem to come pretty close to me as a “graven image”. Worshipping the fetus at the alter of a protest sign. Pretty heretic if you ask me.
Just rambling here, I guess. I’m super tired.
Jen C, we don’t pray to unborn children, we pray for them.
Big difference.
SOMG,
“I’m pro-life, but I just CAN’T have a baby now!” –I hear this all the time (well frequently, anyway).
Well in your line of work you would hear that often.
However, I would say these girls are lying about one thing or the other.
Either they are NOT PRO-LIFE or they CAN have a baby right now…
Can’t very well be pro-life standing in an abortion clinic requesting an abortion now, can you?
mk
SOMG,
In that case, a lot of women who call themselves “pro-life”, aren’t, “really”.
well, duh!
mk
Tell me SOMG,
What kind of soap do you use, to get the blood off of your hands? Does it get under your fingernails?
Because it certainly doesn’t get under your skin.
Peculiar, peculiar, peculiar.
You must be very lonely. You are either surrounded by people as twisted as you are, or you are completely alone.
If you do have any friends, I wouldn’t turn my back on them…
mk
PIP and Samantha,
Does it just kill you to hear this stuff come out of the “other” sides mouths and realize that 2 months ago you bought into it? Scary, isn’t it, how easily you can be led down dark alleyways…
Welcome to the light. Breathe some fresh air.
It can be so frustrating to know that there are these beautiful, warm, compassionate women trapped inside of these hard, cold shells. If you listen, I swear you can hear their tiny voices whispering, “help me….”
You were there. What can we do? They think we judge them and don’t love them. But you’ve been on both sides. Which side do you feel could love you more deeply. Which side is really offering compassion? Which side is drowning?
mk
Jen C
“have the unyielding desire to control nearly every social aspects of our lives, most notably sexual freedom and education. ”
Exactly what part are we trying to control? We say you want to have sex, go ahead. How is that controlling? We just ask you to take some responsibility for your choice. He ask you not to murder. One of those nasty ten commandments that you seem to have forgotten. When it comes to education we think enough is enough. How much more education can you give? They have condom commercials on MTV. Planned Parenthood has a website devoted to teens (and adults if you need it) and on there has every contraception available with information on how to use it. Including a video with written instructions on how to put on a condom. Aslo, peers teach each other what they have learned. Many schools teach contraception in schools, not to mention parents. How much more education? Since the beginning of readily available contraception abortion has been increasing. To me this says that education isn’t the answer. Putting responsibility back into our lives is. I keep mentioning this, and I will continue to do so, maybe one day you and others will read it:
Guttmacher institute: In the year 2000 there was approximately 9.1 million new STI’s reported for people between the ages of 15 – 24. 9.1 million! I will repeat: 9.1 million! We are killing are children and all you can say is we are too controlling. How about this – we actually care about those kids. That is why we do what we do. 9.1 MILLION!!!! Has it sunk in yet? We have been educating the kids. It’s not working. More education is just going to make that # go up. And when you deny this, I just want you to make a mental note to remember this conversation when the # goes up to 15 million. How many children have to get sick before somebody out there wakes up?
“I realize that the fetishization of the fetus makes it almost idol worship for you people and the thought of destroying something you nearly deify for 9 months is earth shattering”
Do you feel the same way when there are protests to stop an execution? Don’t the people who want capital punishment stopped deify the criminals? Or how about the vegetarians who want all “animal abuse” to stop. Are they deifing the cow? This is not idol worship. It is called compassion. It means that we care that people are destroying a human life. And 93% of the time it is for selfish, not medical, non rape, reasons.
“Giving a fetus rights to a woman’s organ only to take away those rights once it is born is illogical and unfair. Did I miss my window of organ rights once I took my first breath? Because damn, I wish I could have the mental fortitude to demand that awesome kidney you have over there. See what I mean?”
Nope, don’t see what you mean. This is where I can see that you were tired when you wrote this. I can usually understand what you are saying, but this is confusing the hell out of me.
Jen, I may have missed the boat somehow, but I dont really understand how someone who believes that a woman should not have the right to kill an unborn fetus is worshipping it. A woman engaged in an activity knowing fully that it could lead to her pregnancy, and yet she wants to kill the life that she created because it is inconvenient. How about a deal; when you show me a woman who got pregnant without knowing that sex could make her so, I will concede that she should be entitled to an abortion.
As for your assertion that most pro-lifers are Christians, isnt that intuitive? A lot of pro-choicers are atheists or agnostic. Its just common sense. People who believe that there is no God who punishes and therefore are no sins will also believe that they can murder at will without consequence. People who cherish the sanctity of life will try to preserve it rather than extinguish it at whim.
Samantha, one of your three posts was posted under the name samanthat, all lowercase. It could just have been a trick of my computer, however: I
Less, when I post, I have to identify myself. My computer has automatically stored “samanthat” and so I sometimes choose this option if Im feeling lazy rather than typing out SamanthaT, which is how my name appeared before I cleared the cookies. The type key account is not case sensitive, so it doesnt care which one I use. Last night my computer was feeling schizophrenic, and I ended up posting too many times in an effort to refresh my browser.
“Also, I would like some proof that gives any indication whatsoever that willingness to abort is at all related to later parenting ability.”
Okay. So you dont understand how a willingness to kill a defenseless young human is an indication that a person values her career above the life of others and would sacrifice them to maintain what she considered optimal conditions for herself. If you dont get it, I will just leave it at “we disagree.”
Ah, that makes sense Samantha.
I was asking for proof, not your opinion, and not questioning my reading comprehension, complete with emotional appeals. It’s not a young human, it’s a fetus; she values her career over a fetus, not born others. If your opinion is based on so little that you can’t provide me with proof, well…
Less, perhaps you could provide an example of what you would consider proof? I personally had heretofore considered the measure of a good parent to be subjective and relative.
On the flip side, Im glad to know that you had a pleasant day, as I personally have been cramming for a quantum physics final. At least someone in the universe was able to enjoy the beautiful day. =)
Samantha, I could actually surf my academic journal databases for something in a bit. I generally consider any sort of repeatable study proof. I’d agree that good parenting is highly subjective and dependent to some extent upon the child, but basic ideas such as abuse, neglect, resentment for child could be measured. That’s mostly what I was talking about.
Blergh, I have all my finals this week. I was getting sick from being constantly in my dorm studying and writing papers, and finally decided to blow it off and take a day of rest. I can catch up tonight and tomorrow morning, and today was completely worth it. Cool lake water is the best remedy for craming blues. :P
SoMG:
“Not that there’s any shortage of pro-life liars and hypocrites.”
For my part, I think a vast majority of abortions are not cases of a woman’s choice at all, but an action compelled by a man weilding undue power in her life. If — if this is true, then “pro-choice” is, to the extent that it’s true, a sham.
Consider the moratoria on death sentences around the country, based on serious problems such as the rash of proven cases of innocent people on death row. These remain exceptions, but they’re enough to call the whole system into question.
IMO, if a significant proportion of women feel compelled by another person to have an abortion, then pro-choice advocacy of her action is purely pro-abortion, not pro-choice at all.
Pro-life believe life compels one choice — if we can call it that. Nature doesn’t negotiate — it dictates. Seen this way, abortion is just one further of modernity’s many battles with nature. What’s frightful is that we’ve taken modernity’s battle with nature into the womb, and our children are not only not collateral damage — they’re the enemy.
Nah. We are.
Valerie, you wrote: “In the year 2000 there was approximately 9.1 million new STI’s reported for people between the ages of 15 – 24. 9.1 million! I will repeat: 9.1 million! We are killing are children and all you can say is we are too controlling. How about this – we actually care about those kids. That is why we do what we do.”
What you do is you try to outlaw abortion. How would outlawing abortion prevent STIs?
Just wondering.
Rasqual, you wrote: “For my part, I think a vast majority of abortions are not cases of a woman’s choice at all, but an action compelled by a man weilding undue power in her life.”
Really, Rasqual? A MAJORITY of abortions? A VAST majority? Where did you get such a silly idea?
Less, I googled “abortion child abuse” just to see if I could find anything, and I found several articles that refer to the dramatic increase in child abuse cases in conjunction with the legalization of abortion. One had testimonies taken from cross-examination of mothers who had beaten or murdered their children, who explained that their abortions were the reason that they felt compelled to injure their children. Im not posting these sources as fact because Im not convinced that they are unbiased, in addition to the fact that correlation and causation are not the same, but it is something to think about.
I think a problem in proving whether or not abortion is linked to child abuse is simply that when a mother is arrested for child abuse, the line of questioning probably doesnt involve her reproductive history. I cant seem to find any reliable data, which may mean that there isnt any at all.
Pretty in Pink:
Wow! My internet goes down for a few days and I read this. This makes all the hours spent debating and all the abuse I get from Cameron worth it. The truth alwasy wins out.
Remember when I told you God had a plan for you for leadership?
Well, what you did switching to Pro-life is an indication of that leadership. You have courage.
Way to think for yourself. You will not regret that.
God Bless You and give you the desires of your heart whatever they may be.
SoMG, can Valerie not simultaneously fight to end abortion and to stop the spread of STIs, or do you know something she doesnt? And since the cause for abortions = sex, and the cause for the spread of STIs = sex, it seems pretty self-explanatory that the two are related.
Nice to see you back His Man.
His Man, Samantha T. has converted too. I do believe that God has called these 2. God needs more people to speak out for life. Many are called, but few a chosen.
SoMg,You never answered my question. Does abortion cause damage to the cervix? If not, do you have any FACTS to back this up?
“Really, Rasqual? A MAJORITY of abortions? A VAST majority? Where did you get such a silly idea?”
Actually, I’ll immediately mea culpa that. As I said elsewhere, my wife works with such women every day. My remark attributed to the far horizon the things that happen to be blocking out the sun nearby. My bad.
SOMG:
In regards to my post proving that we are killing are kids by telling them “kids are going to do it (sex) anyway.”
It was in response to a previous post talking about birth control and education. Perhaps if you read all the posts and not just pick and choose what you want, you would have known this.
Less –
Your Aunt went to a butcher, not an OB/GYN. I talked to my Aunt about having the tubal done because she had one about 20 years ago and the only difference with hers and mine was how big the incision was and location. My incision was literally in my belly button, Hers is just below the belly button and can barely be seen. She was back at work (RN) the next day with no problems. I had mine done just 2 months after Catherine was born so…do I need to explain that rest was impossible?
I am not saying that I think you should do this. You are young and could change your mind on the baby thing. I didn’t want kids until I was in my late 20’s before that I was “no kids, no way”. However, I wanted to let you know that it isn’t invasive just in case you do choose it. It is not reversable and when done correctly is 100% effective. There is also a new method of blocking the tubes. The Dr. implants some sort of device in the tubes and in 3 months the tubes close in around it closing the tube. Again a permanet sterizlation. This procedure is not considered surgery and I believe can be done in the office. It was offered to me, but it was still to new for me to risk it. (Remember, my health is at stake if I get preg. again.)
I will talk to my friend and get some websites for you. Also, do you have a naturopath anywhere near you? Or a Holistic Dr? As you know, I am 100% abortion in any way, but if you do it I don’t want you to have the wrong information. Plus, herbology is facinating and something you may be interested in. I have considered getting certified to be a herbologist.
What makes you a woman? Hormones baby! Hormones all the way!
;-)
HisMan! Welcome back! I was wondering where you were.
Glad you were able to get back on the internet.
;-)
Wow, so this is blogging.
I’m fairly new at this, please have mercy.
I was a die-hard, pro-choice feminist during my high school years.I was a good student, extrememly promising future, etc. Never wanted kids, graduated early. Got pregnant at 18 while on the pill, all my friends agreed with me on my decision to abort.
After my abortion. I was numb. Why didn’t I feel like the big feminist champion I was supposed to be?
Planned Parenthood said it “was all in my head, most women don’t feel this way. It must be pressure from those stupid right-wing conservative groups.” No way, I surrounded myself with liberal, pro-choicers. (what pro-lifer would want to be around me then?) Still, I was disgusted with myself, couldn’t shake that feeling.
Two years later I got pregnant again, practicing “safe” sex. Was not going to have someone tell me “it was all in my head” after another abortion.
I had killed a someone. It wasn’t about choice.
I kept my baby. She is twelve now. It wasn’t newspapers that changed me, or the president’s personal religious views.
It was acknowledging that all the time I was fighting for the rights of women, I did not fight for the right of one little baby, who might’ve been a woman some day. I am very thankful I got a second chance to make the right choice.
I am a mother. My life is much different than the one I thought I would have. I couldn’t have chosen a better one. I understand that there are other opinions out there, but I can sleep at night knowing I’ve made at least one right decision in my life, and it did not involve any gain on my part, except the chance to know what real love can be.
Janet, thank you so much for your testimony. I have tears in my eyes thinking of how hard it must have been for you, and how hard it must be for all women who believe they should feel nothing and yet feel that horrible pain after abortion, and have seemingly no one to turn to. I’m very sorry for your loss.
I am so thankful that there are people out there like you, who are willing to share their stories and help other women in the same situation!
Janet,God bless you. I think that there is a huge misunderstanding about RTL’s. Most of us would and have reached out to those in pain. Gee, how many bad choices have I made in this life?? It’s not about judgement, it’s about making the wrong things right.
P.S. Janet thanks for sharing your story.
Janet, nice post. Welcome to the blogosphere.
“I am very thankful I got a second chance to make the right choice.”
Give yourself a break, I think you made two good choices, not just one.
Hal,she made it clear that she regrets the first choice. Show a little respect for what she has said. Show some for her feelings as well.
SamanthaT, you wrote: “And since the cause for abortions = sex, and the cause for the spread of STIs = sex, it seems pretty self-explanatory that the two are related. ”
You are falling into a common error–thinking that because one thing causes two effects, that the two effects are causally related.
Just because sex causes abortion and sex causes STIs, does not mean that abortion causes STIs. In fact it doesn’t.
Heather4Life, abortion can cause damage to the cervix in some cases. But labor and delivery of a live infant causes more damage to the cervix, more frequently, than abortion. Wider dilation = more potential for damage.
Hal, 3:53p, said: “Give yourself a break, I think you made two good choices, not just one.”
Hal, Heather is right. Don’t force your view on Janet, a convenient view for you since you aborted and are fine and dandy.
By not allowing women to feel loss following abortion and feel responsibility for that loss, you show another way abortion exploits women.
Jilll, I’m not “forcing” my view on Janet. I’m “allowing” her to feel what she wants, just pointing out another way to view it. You converted PIP, maybe I can have some influence over Janet.
If she can stop feeling guilty or “a loss” over her decision, wouldn’t that be a good thing?
It seems to me you all are being inappropriately gentle with Janet. Janet hired an abortionist to kill her first baby! Doesn’t that make her a murderer, and don’t murderers deserve to rot in jail?
Hal,guilt is a normal and much needed response to things that we have done which were wrong. If I were to have an affair with a married man,should I feel guilty? The answer is yes.Why? Because it’s wrong.The answer would be to repent of it, and never repeat the mistake. The same holds true of abortion. The best thing to do is acknowledge that you made a mistake,repent,and don’t repeat it. Hal, you should work on that one yourself.
Somg, Big difference. Janet is no longer condoning murder.
Somg, Do you have any proof that childbirth causes MORE damage to that cervix than abortion, or are you just grasping at straws?
Oh Hal, We have 2 converted people. Where have you been?
Hal and SoMg, Who loves abortion? Answer; Irresponsible men. Must I keep reminding you????
haha yeah I’d like to see some kind of proof of that, Somg. Let’s see it.
Heather4life, I understand the concept. You should feel sorry about things that are wrong. If it’s not wrong, there is nothing to repent. We simply disagree on whether abortion is wrong or not. Janet had an abortion, felt bad about it, had a child, and felt good about that.
We all wish her the best. You guys say “you did a terrible thing, but you’ve repented, good for you.” I say “you did nothing wrong, don’t be so hard on yourself.” If that’s exploiting women, I just don’t undertand.
Hal, Abortion is murder,and it’s wrong. Please get out of denial. There is forgiveness for you and your wife. I assure you of that.
I think the reality of abortion is more complicated than can simply being explained by “irresponsible men” love abortion. Some irresponsible men don’t love abortion at all I would imagine. Some responsible men might accept abortion because the woman they love want one. Some woman might have abortions because they ARE responsible.
I’ll pretend you were not personally attacking me as “irresponsible.”
Hi Bethany. Yes, I would like to see that proof. I’ll bet we don’t. Hal, you don’t seem like a bad person, but you do seem confused.Please stop lying to yourself. C’mon, step out of the darkness. Step into the light. I promise, you’ll feel better.
“Hal, Abortion is murder,and it’s wrong.”
well, that’s the crux of the question isn’t it?
If it’s not “murder and wrong,” then I’m right about everything, and if it “murder and wrong,” then you are.
Hal,Perhaps your wife wanted the abortion.If so,I am sorry. I agree that some men would make excellent fathers, but they are deprived of that chance. There are plenty of irresponsible women too. There is forgiveness for both of you. It’s there if you want it.
Heather4Life, I’m a responsible female and I’m pro-choice. It isn’t only “irresponsible men.”
Hal, what??
Sorry Less, I always think of that woman I know. She had 7 abortions. I asked her if she had ever bothered to use a condom. She replied “What for?” “If I get pregnant,I’ll just have another abortion.”……..Who likes abortion? Answer: Irresponsible men/women. That’s better.
Hal, I understand what you are trying to do, but the thing is, she herself recognizes what she did as wrong. She herself believes it was wrong, and the way she has gotten comfort is from accepting that it was wrong and accepting the forgiveness she was given after doing it.
Before, when she believed abortion was okay, and kept getting the reassuring “You did nothing to be ashamed of”, and she kept telling herself it was the right thing, she was sinking into a deeper well of depression, according to what she said.
If you deny her the opportunity to grieve her loss, you’re hurting her worse than you are helping her, even if you don’t realize it.
Even Norma McCorvey {Roe} was totally appalled when women approached her and thanked her for helping to legalize abortion. She is now pro-life!
Heather, I was just commenting on your “abortion is murder and wrong” comment.
You are asserting what you are trying to prove.
If I believed abortion was murder and wrong, I would agree with everything else you say. Hence, we are talking past each other mostly. I don’t think abortion is murder or that it is wrong. I don’t need forgiveness.
Thanks for recognizing that I don’t “seem like a bad person.” However, I’m not confused, nor am I lying to myself. Of course, I could be wrong. So could you. It’s amazing to realize I’m as sure in my position as you are in yours.
Okay Hal. End of discussion. Let me just assure you of one true thing. Abortion is murder.
Heather, some facts are so obvious and firmly established in the GYN community that it’s difficult to find formal documentation of them.
A little common sense might help here: Abortion typically dilates the cervix less than 1.4 mm. Childbirth typically dilates the cervix 10-14 cm. Which do you think is more likely to cause tearing or trauma?
I’ll leave the googling to you. And I challenge you to find even one practising GYN or OB or OB/GYN resident who disagrees with me on this.
OOPS! That should be “… less than 14 mm.” or “… less than 1.4 cm.” Sorry for the error.
SOMG,
The cervix in delivery dilates naturally to 10 centimeters. It does it slowly over period of days, sometimes weeks.
What happened on that video is forcing an unopened cervix to open unnaturally so that you can shove metal objects blindly into it.
Hardly comparable!
Not to mention I don’t think I’ve ever had, or would ever want to have my cervix clamped…
SOMG,
You made the assertion, you google!
mk
Again this fetishizing of the natural. Natural does not mean good for you.
Cancer is natural and the surgery that cures cancer is unnatural.
I challenge you (again) to find any practising OB/GYN who disutes that full-term delivery is more dangerous to the cervix than first-trimester abortion.
Again this fetishizing of the natural. Natural does not mean good for you.
Cancer is natural and the surgery that cures cancer is unnatural.
An unborn child is not a disease, so that analogy does not work. Try again.
Oh and okay, SOMG, the next time I go to my gynecologist for a checkup, I will be sure to ask her.
However, the ball is still in your court to find evidence to support your claims. If every Ob-gyn agrees with you, why can you not find any documented evidence to share with us?
SOMG,
“Cancer is natural …”
No it isn’t. It’s nature gone awry. Healthy cells are natural. Unless of course you mean found in nature. Toads with three legs and two heads are also found in nature. But I wouldn’t call them natural.
Sex is also natural, MK. Why are you willing to put restrictions upon that?
SOMG –
I don’t have much time for research.
This is from the American Pregnancy Association:
What causes an incompetent or weakened cervix?
– A weakened cervix can be caused by one or more of the following conditions:
– Previous surgery on the cervix
– Damage during a difficult birth
– Malformed cervix or uterus from a birth defect
– Previous trauma to the cervix, such as a D&C (dilation and curettage) from a termination or a miscarriage
– DES (Diethylstilbestrol) exposure
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/incompetentcervix.html
________________________
It says “difficult birth” not all birth. Yet, it doesn’t say anything about “difficult” D&C. It just says a D&C.
Here is where you will find a list of the Doctors that participate for this association
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/main/mac.html
There’s alot of Gynocologists on that list.
Also: Here is a discription of a D&C
1) You may receive antibiotics intravenously or orally to help prevent infection.
2) The cervix is examined to evaluate if it is open or not. If the cervix is closed, dilators
(narrow instruments in varying sizes) will be inserted to open the cervix to allow the surgical instruments to pass through. A speculum will be placed to keep the cervix open.
3) The vacuum aspiration (also called suction curettage) procedure uses a plastic cannula (a flexible tube) attached to a suction device to remove the contents of the uterus. The cannula is approximately the diameter in millimeters as the number of weeks gestation the pregnancy is. For example, a 7mm cannula would be used for a pregnancy that is 7 weeks gestation. The use of a curette (sharp edged loop) to scrape the lining of the uterus may also be used, but is often not necessary.
4) The tissue removed during the procedure may be sent off to the pathology lab for testing.
5) Once the health care provider has seen that the uterus has firmed up and that the bleeding has stopped or is minimal, the speculum will be removed and you will be sent to recovery.
_______________
Do you see where it says that the cervix is naturally dialated? I don’t.
So – I’ve shown you my information. Let’s see yours.
Less –
Pregnancy is natural. Why are you willing to put restrictions on that?
I’m not putting restrictions on that, Valerie: I’m working to let each individual woman do whatever she wants when she gets pregnant.
You are putting restrictions of pregnancy Less. You say that if you get pregnant you will abort. This is restricting the length of pregnancy.
You say that women can restrict pregnancy by abortion.
That is putting a restriction on pregnancy.
Get it?
SOMG –
How about the University of Illinois medical center information on a D&C:
“After a woman has a pelvic exam to check the size and position of her uterus, a tool called a speculum is placed inside her vagina. This tool, which is also used during a Pap smear, allows the cervix to be seen. A special tool straightens the cervix and instills local numbing medicine if general anesthesia is not used. Special rods of increasing size are passed through the opening of the cervix so as to dilate the cervix.
Once the opening is wide enough, the healthcare professional can put other tools into the uterus……”
Once again, no natural dilation. Forced dilation.
No, I’m putting restrictions on my pregnancy. I also put restrictions on my sex life. My personal choices are a far cry from what the government should or should not do.
I do indeed say that women can restrict pregnancy by abortion. That’s not the same as saying women should restrict pregnancy by abortion, as MK says that people should restrict sex by not having premartial sex.
Whoa, my bolding messed up, sorry about that.
SOMG –
How about Georgetown University definition for causes of a weakened cervix:
“The exact cause of an incompetent or weakened cervix is unknown, though it is sometimes associated with a previous traumatic birth (during which the cervix was torn), a cone biopsy, or repeated or late-term abortion. It is also associated with an abnormally developed cervix, a finding in daughters of mothers who were exposed to the drug DES (diethylstilbestrol) during their pregnancy.”
This time it is a “traumatic birth” and must have tearing done to the cervix. Yet that nasty abortion thing still comes up.
Cameron, because of your threatening and obscene posts last night, you are now banned from this site.
Jill – WOOHOO!!!
Less:
“That’s not the same as saying women should restrict pregnancy by abortion, as MK says that people should restrict sex by not having premartial sex. ”
You’ll have to explain how that is different. Both are restrictions which equals….. restrictions. It doesn’t matter what KIND of restrictions.
Also, you will have to explain how to do bold and such…. I have no idea how to do that!
Samantha and Valerie,
I will send you an email on how to do the bold and italics. :)
SoMg,I think I got you! You can’t prove that abortion doesn’t cause cervical damage. I can’t find a single article to back up your claim. If every OBGYN agrees with you, then why can’t I find anything? A link please.
Cameron, you burned your own bridge pal.No love lost.
Valerie: I’m not saying every pregnancy should end in abortion. I’m saying if a woman chooses, her individual pregnacy can end in abortion. It’s up to the woman what she chooses: frankly, it’s none of my business either way. I put no restrictions on what a woman wants to do with her pregnancy.
If I was saying that every pregancy should end in birth/abortion, that would be putting restrictions on pregnancy. Similar to people saying that sex should take place only during marriage.
I feel like the whole thing comes down to respect for life. A baby didn’t make a choice to be conceived. A baby is dependant on the mother, but s/he is not a tumor to be cut out (or herbally medicated out, etc.) I don’t believe abortion is a women’s health issue. I have not read any specific instances where a woman really needed to have an abortion to save her life.
Look, call me naive, but the last time I checked, sex between a man and a woman puts a chance out there for pregnancy. Just because a woman didn’t intend to get pregnant does not mean there shouldn’t be a consequence. I don’t think the baby should be the one to pay it. When I first got pregnant, I though my consequence was going to be a hard life with a screaming baby, without a future. I totally shortchanged myself. When I chose Life, I found that I very well could reach goals, even if it wasn’t the way I planned it. And I had a little miracle with me.
Well, is a baby a life or not? Should it really be a “choice” to keep or kill?
Great post Janet!!!
Heather, this is one of those facts that is so obvious to everyone that it’s hard to document online.
For instance, I challenge you to prove, using internet sources, that one plus one equals two, or that deep stab wounds are worse than peripheral stab wounds, or that getting hit by a car is worse than getting hit by a bicycle. Everyone knows these things, but you can’t prove them because they’re too obvious to be worth documenting.
Again, I challenge you to find even ONE practising OB/GYN who disputes that full-term delivery of a live infant is more dangerous to the cervix than first-trimester abortion.
SoMg,There must be some web sites if this is true
Heather, are you disputing that one plus one equals two (no web sites) or that deep stab wounds are worse for you than peripheral stab wounds (no web sites) or that getting hit by a car is worse for you than getting hit by a bicycle (no web sites)?
SoMg, Where did you get your info.?
That’s great that you feel that way Janet; I don’t care. Are you going to force every woman to think how you do? I loathe the idea of a screaming child, no matter how much support I have, and I certainly don’t consider it a miracle. People are born every day, nothing special about it.
You say that you’re willing to use pregnancy as a consequence. Does that mean you’re willing to equate a baby with a punishment? Not everyone considers them “little miracles:” I dislike newborns quite a bit, and would frankly consider it a curse. As I am never willing to get pregnant, should I never have sex?
Heather, I get my info from inside the GYN industry.
SoMg, I doubt it.
Less,
Consequence does not always have to be negative.
Obviously I do not consider a baby to be a punishment. That’s exactly it-that is how they are depicted, just to get rid of the baby. The baby I kept was not a screaming child. Everything about her is a miracle.
I’m sorry you don’t care, but I do. That is why I am on a pro-life site, not a pro-abort. Yes, people are born every day. People are also aborted every day. If an everyday occurence is not a miracle to you, I don’t know why you’d waste time fighting for it.
Unlike you, I don’t know why, but I care about you and the way you feel about children. I’m sorry you don’t care about infants, that you’d rather call them a curse. If everyone felt like you, you wouldn’t exist, the people you love wouldn’t exist.
I guess that’s enough. Everyone, good evening, good night.
I fight for it, Janet, because I believe it to be important to protect the bodily rights of women. I refuse to force women to keep a pregnancy that is obviously unwanted. Frankly, if abortion were outlawed and I becamse pregnant, I would find every way possible to end it. I dislike the condition and I dislike newborns: I love kids, but newborns disturb me a bit.
Frankly, I realize that my opinion on pregnancy and infants is just that: my opinion. In my perfect world, absolutely every child would be wanted, this ridiculous stigma against unwed mothers would dissappear, sex would be recognized for the natural and beautiful thing that it is and wouldn’t be tabbooed, and there would be an 100% perfect form of non-surgical contraception, so women like me who never want pregnancy would be safe from it. Infants would be safe; it isn’t as though I want all of them dead. I just don’t want one for myself.
Less,
I respect your opinions.
I actually agree with much of what you say.
I believe rights of women should be protected, would love to see that every child in this world be loved, nurtured and treasured. I agree that sex is a beautiful and natural thing.
I don’t agree that killing a child has anything to do with the rights of women.
You say you dislike newborns. They become “kids” very quickly (you love kids, I’m assuming you mean newborns that have grown into older children). Just because they disturb you does not change the fact that they have the same rights as “kids”, the very ones you love. That’s my point. Newborns, babies unseen because they are in the mother, they are human beings. That respect for life is gone right now. Eventually, that will affect us directly when we are old and gray. The younger generation will look upon us as a stain, or a tumor that they won’t want to deal with. Will we be done away with as well?
Also, I don’t believe there is a stigma against unwed mothers. There are plenty of single women having children nowadays. Adopting them, too. There are so many programs that help support single mothers financially and emotionally.
As for sex being taboo, I can’t even watch an NBA game without having to watch those dumb Pussycat Dolls gyrating on the screen during time outs. While buying groceries, all the magazines at the checkout have “better sex” and the like on their covers. Sex is everywhere, not just implied. Every kind of sex is displayed, and even named. If anything, society right now glorifies sex. No, sex is not taboo in the United States. It is exploited, which is not a beautiful, natural thing.
I agree this is not a perfect world.
But the fact is, life is life. It may be a bother to become pregnant, be pregnant, raise a child or give it up for adoption. Does it change the fact there is a child involved?
I do want to thank you for reminding me that you don’t want all infants dead. I realize you don’t want a child right now. I definitely don’t think of you as a butcher, but do need to remember you are a person, with feeling and a past that I don’t know about. Thanks for making yourself vulnerable on this site because of what you believe. This is probably not a compliment to you, but on my end I am saying this in the nicest way,
you remind me of me.
I still must say:
It does not change the fact that life is to be respected. I don’t even know you, but as a human being, I respect you as a fellow human being. If you think that some lives are worthier than others, and that’s your stance, done.
Thanks, Less. I’ve learned alot just from reading your posts.
~janet
Janet –
BRAVO!!
Janet, Double Bravo! I liked the part where you pointed out old age. Time flies. Before you know it,we are old. Should we be discarded?