Fighting liars with fires
Perhaps inspired by the determination of Operation Rescue leaders against late-term abortionist George Tiller in Wichita, or perhaps enraged by the audacity of Aurora’s Planned Parenthood, it seems to me pro-lifers are just not taking it any more.
Three evidences….
Planned Parenthood in Aurora, IL
Thomas More Society gave Aurora’s outside counsel an ultimatum yesterday: Agree to let teens proceed with their rally tomorrow at the Planned Parenthood mill without permit or police overbearance or make another trek to court today.
Aurora counsel agreed in an email the kids could “bring protest signs in addition to the white crosses to their rallies… carry those signs… lay them down in the parkway when they are tired… lean them against parkway trees… [and] protest without acquiring an assembly permit under the City Code.”
Aurora counsel further desired to “either reach permanent or temporary resolution of them, or bring them before the judge in a manner that does not waste judicial or legal resources.”
Reporting this, Thomas More lead attorney Tom Brejcha said in an email, with language that always captivates me:
[S]o things are going foward in a positive way although we remain very aggrieved by the city’s adamant refusal to simply give the pro-lifers the same treatment which they routinely give to labor union strikers and picketers and even to commercial vendors, who have staked signs and tents into Aurora’s city parkways all over town without so much as a gesture of interference on the part of Aurora’s finest.
We had photos of labor signs and commercial signs taken by Eric [Scheidler] a week ago today appended to our verified complaint last week, and yesterday – in the wake of the police directive that vigil participants give up their big box in which they kept rain gear, Bibles, leaflets, water bottles and snacks, etc. – Eric photographed a tent that a labor union had put up and staked into a parkway at another Aurora location, under which the strikers’ and picketers’ private effects were sheltered from the elements! So, this is what we call egregious “viewpoint discrimination” – a blatant First Amendment violation.
The Aurora lawyer seems anxious not to “waste judicial resources,” but he’s got a surprise coming if he thinks we’ll put up with and settle for these mere half-measures, welcome as they are. The pro-lifers are fully deserving of equal, non-discriminatory treatment on the same terms as those enjoyed by Aurora’s labor and commercial spokespeople.
Pro-lifers are not second class citizens. Bravo, Tom.
Planned Parenthood in Bellmawr, New Jersey
Reported Life Advocacy Briefing today:
Controversy is stirring around a Planned Parenthood outpost in Bellmawr, New Jersey, which “operates,” writes Courier-Post reporter Jim Walsh, “from a Camden County regional health center in the municipal complex.”
Citizens are “collecting signatures,” reports Mr. Walsh, “sending letters and expressing their displeasure to elected officials.”
The cooperative arrangement has existed for several years, according to the South Jersey Courier-Post report, but is now the focus of concern by area clergy, led by Pastor Vincent Kovlak Jr. of Bellmawr Baptist Church. “‘Planned Parenthood promotes abortion and promiscuity,'” said Pastor Kovlak, apparently in a letter to other area clergymen, quoted in the Courier-Post. “‘They are on the wrong side of God’s laws.'”
The deputy county administrator for human services, defending the arrangement, acknowledged to the Courier-Post, “the protest ‘has gained a little bit of momentum.'”
Planned Parenthood in Ann Arbor, MI
An email sent by Lauren Werda, Lex Vitae president, Ave Maria School of Law, today:
The students of Ave Maria Law… will be forming a Life Chain out on 3100 Professional Dr… September 1 from 10am-11am! We are kicking off our semester witness at PP by this unique stand for life…. If we fill the street, we will spill onto Huron Dr. We hope to have an incredible presence out there….
As you may know – we are still in a dispute with the city about where we can stand on Professional Dr. We are currently working to resolve this important dispute.
Isn’t all this news encouraging? Unless you’re a PP exec, then oy.
“Agree to let teens proceed with their rally tomorrow at the Planned Parenthood mill without permit or police overbearance or make another trek to court today.”
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I’ve always taught young people to disobey the law. Usually I just encourage them to buy guns and meth, but I’ve given a few lessons in auto theft. I figure as long as they’re not going to be tried as adults, they might as well enjoy High School to the fullest. I agree with the Thomas More Law Center; give the cops the finger, scream “187!” and hit the gas! ANARCHY!
I find it ironic that you encourage your own child to go to Washington and work within the system, while you encourage other people’s children to engage in behavior that could get them arrested, get them fired, get their vehicles siezed, and cause them to lose school scholarships and grants.
I’ve always felt that embryos were expendable, but you seem to extend that sentiment to other people’s children.
I’ve always taught young people to disobey the law. Usually I just encourage them to buy guns and meth, but I’ve given a few lessons in auto theft.
Oh yes, cause peacefully walking around with signs in your hands is completely analogous to using meth and car theft.
Oh yes, cause peacefully walking around with signs in your hands is completely analogous to using meth and car theft.
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Intetionally breaking the law will get those young people arrested, which can and will result in cancelled grants and scholarships, loss of employment, vehicle siezure and worse.
Heck, at the very LEAST it will automatically get you kicked out of virtually every Catholic School in the land.
Intetionally breaking the law will get those young people arrested, which can and will result in cancelled grants and scholarships, loss of employment, vehicle siezure and worse.
Heck, at the very LEAST it will automatically get you kicked out of virtually every Catholic School in the land.
Bethany,
You have me laughing my butt off with those little cartoons!!!!!
Ooh ooh I discovered something.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w
“The Aurora lawyer seems anxious not to “waste judicial resources,” but he’s got a surprise coming if he thinks we’ll put up with and settle for these mere half-measures, welcome as they are. The pro-lifers are fully deserving of equal, non-discriminatory treatment on the same terms as those enjoyed by Aurora’s labor and commercial spokespeople.”
amen Tom Brejcha.
No, this is perfect…
People like Jill send their children to recieve an upscale education, then send the “privledged” to Washington to work within the system.
Then Jill sends YOUR children – the “lesser beings,” – to get arrested in an illegal street fight in Illinois.
Flawless.
“privledged”
Sorry, I meant “privileged.”
Laura, permits are great, but not if violating First Amendment rights, wouldn’t you agree?
As I explained, officials and police in Aurora interpret their city codes subjectively, dependent on the group. It has been demonstrated they impose undue burdens on pro-lifers they don’t impose on others – viewpoint discrimination.
And btw, does your concern that some receive an “upscale education” and others don’t mean you support school choice? You’re all about choice, after all, right?
And btw, does your concern that some receive an “upscale education” and others don’t mean you support school choice? You’re all about choice, after all, right?
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Absolutely!
…And gay, as well as childfree America, shouldn’t have to pay to educate and incarcerate children that we didn’t produce. WE should get the huge tax breaks and credits. After all, we are the most productive workers and cost FAR less in insurance premiums. We should be rewarded.
Yes – Laura, that would be great! But you shouldn’t count on retirement, because the children that the rest of us pay to raise and educate shouldn’t have to spend their adult working lives supporting you in your old age, when you have been so stingy in your younger days.
You have me laughing my butt off with those little cartoons!!!!!
I am currently reading “The Coming Generational Storm” which is a book by some economists that explains what the US govt is facing in the trillions of dollars for unfunded programs like Social Security and Medicare. The main problem is that soon there will more people collecting benefits than those working. The generation that follows will pay higher taxes and collect fewer benefits. The people who have ten kids actually help the retirees and the govt most in this situation. People are a society
Oops, I should have said,
inadequately funded programs
sorry
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sheltielover/FF%20smilies/waiting.gif
Awesome.
Doug
When the church wakes up in the realization that judgement begins with them, they will understand that God holds the church responsible for every abortion committed in our land. Why, because we have allowed it to happen with only a whimper of protest? The pulpits of you namby-pamby preachers should be wretched from your grasp.
And this in a land where we have the right of protest, free speech and fredom of assembly. So to sit by and do nothing is without excuse and damnable, especailly of the church.
Every God-fearing Chritian needs to be made aware that to sit back and do nothing about abortion is an insult to God. What worse thing can one do then let the innocent object of his intent be destroyed. We are salt and light. We are God’s mouth here on earth.
Take courage, rise up and speak out against every abomination we under assualt with including the murder of unborn children, the perversion of homosexuality and the degradation of marriage.
And Hippie, the book you espouse has everything to do with abortion. We reap what we sow my friend.
His Man, please come by more often. Where have you been?
Jill,
Reading Laura’s posts are like reading the comics. It’s unimaginable what goes on in her illogical head.
Hey Heather,
Fighting the good fight.
Have lost 30 pounds, got my daughter off to college, restructuring my business, building a house, etc.
I will be back tougher and harder against these idiots called pro-choicers.
THANK GOD! We need you!
Welcome back!!!!!!!!
Hey HisMan,
Glad to here from you again buddy, hope everything is going ok with you…. I went through the house building stuff as well, keep an eye on those contractors (if your using them) sometimes they like to cut corners.
Every God-fearing Chritian needs to be made aware that to sit back and do nothing about abortion is an insult to God. What worse thing can one do then let the innocent object of his intent be destroyed. We are salt and light. We are God’s mouth here on earth.
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God who? There are 3500 “supreme deities” recognized on this planet.
Faith is a personal matter. I would kill and die to protect your right to practice your faith, but your practice stops right where my uterus starts.
Reading Laura’s posts are like reading the comics. It’s unimaginable what goes on in her illogical head.
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…Said the man whose value system is based on the whims of a magic invisible sky ghostie.
“I will be back tougher and harder against these idiots called pro-choicers.”
People are glad he’s back with this language? How come when someone who is pro-choice uses this language pro-lifers jump down their throat. But when someone who is pro-life uses it its okay?
laura, i’m sorry but your first few posts make so sense whatsoever. I agree, allow these kids to protest. Even though I’m pro-choice I still think its awesome. These teens believe in something and I think its great that they are standing up for those beliefs. There are a lot of teenagers out there that care about nothing. Even though these teens are on the other side of what I believe in, I am still proud of them. I am sure they are aware of the consequences of going to the rally, or rather what could be the consequences.
“Reading Laura’s posts are like reading the comics. It’s unimaginable what goes on in her illogical head.”
Thats funny hisman, I think the same about your posts.
“I will be back tougher and harder against these idiots called pro-choicers.”
JM: People are glad he’s back with this language? How come when someone who is pro-choice uses this language pro-lifers jump down their throat. But when someone who is pro-life uses it its okay?
JM, I think it’s just gonna happen at times, from both sides of the argument. I imagine it is frustrating for HisMan to come up against the fact that many people won’t blindly swallow the stuff he promotes – stuff which cannot be proven to be anything beyond imaginary.
Doug
Right on JM!
Doug, the things you spew are your own made up self beliefs.
How can you PROVE that God doesn’t exist?
Heather-
Thats the problem… you can’t prove that God does exist but you can’t prove that he doesn’t exist either.
Heather: Doug, the things you spew are your own made up self beliefs.
Grouch.
And no – it is fact that different people have different opinions about this matter, regardless of what they ascribe it to. It is fact that many items of “faith” cannot be proven. It’s fact that what one values may not be what another values.
Doug
People are glad he’s back with this language? How come when someone who is pro-choice uses this language pro-lifers jump down their throat. But when someone who is pro-life uses it its okay?
I am happy to see him back because I had been missing him lately…and was thinking about emailing him and then wow, there he was. It was kind of neat. Wasn’t really paying any attention to anything he said anyway, just the fact that he’s here. About what he said though, I am not sure, but I think he was referring to the new arrivals, like Laura &TexasRed. At least, that’s how I took it, since he posted right after Laura had been saying all of her typical sarcastic posts..I don’t think that anyone thinks of you or people like you here (Rae, Lyssie, Jkeller) as an idiot. You are actually very fair, even though we disagree.
BETHANY!!! Hi how have you been!
And you are probably right.
To be honest I was kind of wondering where hisman has been too.
laura, i’m sorry but your first few posts make so sense whatsoever. I agree, allow these kids to protest. Even though I’m pro-choice I still think its awesome. These teens believe in something and I think its great that they are standing up for those beliefs. There are a lot of teenagers out there that care about nothing.
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Wait-
Illinois is currently a designated disater area and you’re going to encourage healthy young people to go there to stand around and whine? How about wasting law enforcement resources on crowd control when those same officers could be out helping the Red Cross and flood victims?
Some people have some SERIOUS priority issues…
Laura,
I hardly think that a bunch of teenagers protesting for the end of abortion is going to cause a ruckus. Seriously Laura, I bet if the situation was reversed and it was pro-choice teenagers doing the protesting without permission from the city you’d wouldn’t have a problem.
Laura, JM is pro-choice, and she disagrees with you. That should tell you something. What happened to free speech in this country and the right to peacefully protest? If people like you ran the country, there would be no free speech- that is, for people who disagree with you.
Jm, thanks! How have you been? Are the kids at school treating you well? I’ve been doing good. Still haven’t caught up on my laundry today, but working on it! ;)
School is getting better. I have gotten very strict with the students. I have sent several students out of my room to do work when they can’t do it quietly in my room. I usually send them to a teacher they don’t want to disappoint and have them work in that teachers room. Then that teacher will try and have a little talk about respect and why they are in their room.
I don’t mind doing laundry… what I hate doing is folding the laundry and putting it away.
Laura,
Can you be more specific and tell us how the flood victims are being seriously affected by young people demonstrating? Perhaps I missed it, but are you just as concerned about law enforcement resources being tied up with drunk drivers, parking violators, and people complaining about loudly barking dogs? Also, the entire law enforcement community is not helping with flood relief, they can’t. Do you know for certain that these young people have done absolutely nothing to assist with flood relief?
Well said Bethany, I highly doubt teenagers protesting at PP is going to get out of hand.
Well said Mary. Very well said!
Laura- Don’t tell me I don’t care about flood victims. My parents and many family friends are from South-eastern MN. Several people I knew growing up are homeless because of the flooding.
JM,
Excellent point on your 3:42PM post. Demonstrations and protests are just fine, so long as I agree with them.
Are you a student teacher? I haven’t been able to follow posts too well this weekend so maybe you could update me.
School is getting better. I have gotten very strict with the students. I have sent several students out of my room to do work when they can’t do it quietly in my room. I usually send them to a teacher they don’t want to disappoint and have them work in that teachers room. Then that teacher will try and have a little talk about respect and why they are in their room.
Good idea! It sounds like it’s working for you too! :)
Mary-
I am a first year teacher. I am teaching 7th grade. I am crazy… I don’t know why I picked the toughest age group to teach my first year. But I am confident things will keep getting better. I am getting very strict with my kids. But also telling them a couple times a week that I care about them and that they mean a lot to me.
Bethany-
Wednesday I sent a student who is always disruptive and disrespectful into a 1st grade teachers room. I think she did a great job of making him feel guilty for how he and some of the 7th grade students have treated me.
JM,
Good for you. You most certainly did pick a difficult age, but someone has to! Good luck to you, it sounds like you’re on the right track with the students and I know you will do a wonderful job.
Oh, and thank you for your compliment.
Laura writes, “Absolutely!…And gay, as well as childfree America, shouldn’t have to pay to educate and incarcerate children that we didn’t produce. WE should get the huge tax breaks and credits. After all, we are the most productive workers and cost FAR less in insurance premiums. We should be rewarded.”
I say… We shouldn’t have to pay for the heathcare of loose women and sodomites who clog the hospitals with thier STDs. But I would NEVER EVER want to seen any of them aborted… EVER!
Perhaps libs will eventually turn on the queers once they get too expesive… I would watch my A$$ if I were them (No pun intended).
JM, keep up the good work. It does get easier.
Doug
Mary, excellent point! [Your post to Laura] Laura, have you done your part in assisting flood victims.
Laura wrote “SOME PEOPLE HAVE SOME SERIOUS PRIORITY ISSUES” I’ll agree. We can start with a bunch of Hollywood Stars giving money to Planned Parenthood. I can’t help but wonder if any of them have ever given a penny to a good cause. Maybe Cheryl Crow thinks that children ought to be aborted so we can SAVE THE MONEY ON TOILET PAPER! What is that chick smokin?
Joe,
Once again lighting up the room with compassion I see. Well done!
Laura, no it doesn’t. We live in a representative republic. This means that if enough people want it to happen we can re-institute slavery, make Yahewh the official diety of the United States, and take away your right to vote.
It’s called “amending the Constitution”. It’s been done in the past to eliminate slavery, give women the right to vote, take away our right to consume alcohol and grant it again.
Since you “pro-choice” people are supporting the killing of a huge number of people who might later in life share your viewpoint and vote that viewpoint, you are leaving the country of the next couple of generations to quiverfull Christians, devout Catholics and devout Muslims.
How about having “Allah” as the official diety of the United States?
Hope you look good in a burkah, Laura.
ooooh Tony,
I like you!
GO TONY!!!!!!!
“Since you “pro-choice” people are supporting the killing of a huge number of people who might later in life share your viewpoint and vote that viewpoint, you are leaving the country of the next couple of generations to quiverfull Christians, devout Catholics and devout Muslims.”
Except the fact that just because someone is nonreligious (or pr0-choice) doesn’t mean they aren’t going to have children. It also doesn’t mean that they will have abortions. While I see the point you are trying to make. Its pretty far fetched.
Laura, no it doesn’t. We live in a representative republic. This means that if enough people want it to happen we can re-institute slavery, make Yahewh the official diety of the United States, and take away your right to vote.
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No, Tony, we live in a Constitutional Republic.
Look it up. Failing High School Civics must have been SO humiliating…
This is my comment in regards to the “YOUTH FOR TRUTH” rally held on Saturday, Sept. 1, at the site of the new PP abortion killing center in Aurora.
I drove all the way from Chicago to witness these young people and their parents and friends express their belief that every child is a precious gift of God, no matter how small. I was so impressed by the large number of attendees at this rally. Eric Scheidler and his people estimate there were about 750 people all together. It was just fantastic. I have not seen anything like this except for the annual March For Life in Washington, DC, and that is a national event that takes a year of planning.
Yesterdays “YOUTH FOR TRUTH” rally was planned in about one week’s time. The young people and adults that were there know they live in a free country that has been blessed by God with freedom to express one’s opinions in a lawful and peacefull manner WITHOUT INTERFERENCE BY THE POLICE OR OTHERS. I thank Eric Scheidler and Tom Brejcha, attorney with the Thomas More Center, for working to protect the rights of these young people and their parents to be able to express their First Amendment Rights.
Now as far as what they were there to say:
These young people know that a human life begins at conception. They know that life is sacred. They know that abortion is the deliberate killing of a human life and is equivalent to murder. They want the practice of abortion to STOP completely: in Aurora, in Illinois, in the United States of America, and in the whole world. When these young people become adults in just a few years, they are going to demand that abortion stop by only electing candidates to office that will vote for laws to prohibit abotion, ALL ABORTION.
Thank you Jesus for these wonderful young people. I now know there is HOPE for our country because of them. God bless them and protect them.
AND LAURA…. get a life, read the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. And read the Bible. There is only One God. And you are not Him. Neither am I or anyone else. He created you and me and everyone that has ever lived. He created all children, even those millions upon millions who were cruelly aborted. And they and you and I belong to Him. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO KILL GOD’S PRECIOUS INFANTS.
“AND LAURA…. get a life, read the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. And read the Bible. There is only One God. And you are not Him. Neither am I or anyone else. He created you and me and everyone that has ever lived. He created all children, even those millions upon millions who were cruelly aborted. And they and you and I belong to Him. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO KILL GOD’S PRECIOUS INFANTS.”
EXCUSE ME? Another words your saying that your religion is the correct one and everyone else is WRONG?
“EXCUSE ME? Another words your saying that your religion is the correct one and everyone else is WRONG?”
Yes.
Thank you Jasper, thank you Paul. You just reminded me why I don’t practice any organized religion.
I guess the next question is which religion within christianity is correct. Catholics? Lutherans? Methodists? Baptists? etc…. Does that mean every religion before christianity was incorrect? Ah forget this I am not in the mood at the moment.
Jm, the Bible makes it clear that ANY church which confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, can only say this of God. That’s how we know which religions are of God, and which are not. There are differences in the religions, but we do have one thing in common- our Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the most important thing. Hope that clears it up for you. :) Sorry I have to pop in and out today, don’t have much time.
Tony: How about having “Allah” as the official diety of the United States?
Any such religious extremism is bad news.
“Thank you Jasper, thank you Paul. You just reminded me why I don’t practice any organized religion.”
JM, you asked a question and I gave you my honest answer of what I believe.
Jasper, Thank you for the honest answer. I appreciate it.
I apologize to everyone if I seem a little off this weekend. My brother, who I live with, went to a wedding this weekend. I am by myself and suffering from homesickness. :(
Bethany,
My aunt is a crazy Christan religion. I don’t recall the name of the religion. She preaches that anyone who is not her religion is going to hell, even other Christians. She said you have to be baptized in the name of Jesus. (being baptized in the name of father, son and holy spirit (for catholics)) doesn’t count. It needs to be in Jesus’ name only. She’s not allowed to cut her hair, wear make up or own a tv. Shes only allowed to wear dresses. She says parts of the bible were written by the devil. That the devil spoke to the apostles after Jesus’ death. She also has to give a certain percentage of her paycheck to her church. She preaches that my grandfather, grandmother and uncle who have all passed away and were great people are in hell. I want to say she could be some form of Pentecostal but I am not sure if that is right.
Sidenote:
My grandmother and grandfather were devote catholics.
“I apologize to everyone if I seem a little off this weekend. My brother, who I live with, went to a wedding this weekend. I am by myself and suffering from homesickness”
No problem JM, it’s ok…
I agree with bethany’s answer:
“There are differences in the religions, but we do have one thing in common- our Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the most important thing. ”
Yikes, JM. That kind of stuff makes me a little sick to my stomach.
My aunt is a crazy Christan religion. I don’t recall the name of the religion. She preaches that anyone who is not her religion is going to hell, even other Christians. She said you have to be baptized in the name of Jesus. (being baptized in the name of father, son and holy spirit (for catholics)) doesn’t count. It needs to be in Jesus’ name only. She’s not allowed to cut her hair, wear make up or own a tv. Shes only allowed to wear dresses. She says parts of the bible were written by the devil. That the devil spoke to the apostles after Jesus’ death. She also has to give a certain percentage of her paycheck to her church. She preaches that my grandfather, grandmother and uncle who have all passed away and were great people are in hell. I want to say she could be some form of Pentecostal but I am not sure if that is right.
If she states these things, than she is perverting the scriptures and she is lying about having accepted Christ.
I didn’t have much time to expound on my answer yesterday, but there are exceptions to the rule. There are those that claim to be Christians and are not. These are the ones referred to in the Bible as Hypocrites and liars…and the ones who will say at judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Sorry I wasn’t able to clarify yesterday. Jesus is what we have in common, but not a perverted version of Jesus. It must add up with who he was in the Bible. The most important commandment that Jesus told us was that we should hold “love” above all. This woman doesn’t have love, and she doesn’t have Jesus, even though she uses His name.
And the Bible says if you don’t have love, you don’t have God.
I once had a preacher who believed that Baptists and Catholics were going to hell.
@Pip,
sorry, had to post this here because of your notion of ‘free speech’ being stifled by all Catholic institutions except SLU …
from yesterday on another thread … MK …
“And the Gospel according to Luke:
“When you hold a lunch or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or your wealthy neighbors, in case they may invite you back and you have repayment. Rather, when you hold a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind; blessed indeed will you be because of their inability to repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous…”
this is a Christian banquet …. just where does the vagina monologues fit here? Oh yes, they are both about banquets.
Let’s try Jesus’ banquet first, eh? I think pre-born children fit nicely here in Luke’s list … don’t you?
Bethany-
Thank you for clarifying. I wasn’t trying to be mean or anything. Just wanted to share. It personally reminds me somewhat of a cult in a way. One day I will have to tell you the story of how she became this religion. It is quite the story. I hope you are having a great holiday. I had a rough weekend. My brother was at a wedding and I was home alone. My homesickness was the worst it has been since I moved here. I think I cried…. four times yesterday. You know what I miss the most? Hugs! I miss hugs. Before I moved down here I was getting 10 or more hugs a day. I’ve been here for 1.5 months and its a stretch to say that I’ve gotten 10 hugs in all. :( Sorry for rambling on.
AAAWWWW, JM. I’m so sorry to hear that. We are all here for you. Is there anything you can do to make yourself feel better? Why not rent a movie, and order out. Chinese? Mexican? Pizza? Have you made any new friends? Maybe you could go out by yourself? Get a massage, or get a good book. I now give you a great big hug through my computer. Maybe I’ll just have to fly out to Arizona, and we’ll just hang out.LOL!
“I think pre-born children fit nicely here in Luke’s list … don’t you?”
Why yes I do, John.
“this is a Christian banquet …. just where does the vagina monologues fit here”
So…feminists aren’t allowed at Jesus’ table?
So…we can’t invite Muslims, Hindus, etc. to our school because this is Jesus’ table?
I’m not sure where you are getting this idea from your scripture. The unborn thing, yes. feminism and different religions invited to the school, no.
So another answer to your question:
“just where does the vagina monologues fit here”
It doesn’t, because that scripture doesn’t address it at all!
Sorry. My typing is a wee bit off today. I just got out of the hospital. Level 20 migraine. I feel looped!{{medication}}
Hi Pip,
the banquet is a recurring theme in Jesus’ teachings. This is not an-as-you-like-it scenario but an in-your-face confrontation between those our society ostracizes and us. Where is our place as this banquet-of-rejects? If we are also not on St. Luke’s list – are WE anywhere near to God?
we have all sorts of trouble embracing the poor to such an extent that we prefer to be poor ourselves.
The Hindus, Muslims, and feminists are people in-need-of-love: where is this to be found? Instead of the monologues have a rally of ‘huggers’, eh?
Heather-
YOU GET MIGRAINES TOO? They are horrible aren’t they? I started getting them when I was in 3 or 4th grade. I would get about 20 a month. They finally put me on medication to try and prevent them. But I still usually got them once a week. And as you know. Migraines are NOT headaches. When I got a migraine then, I was out for the rest of the day. Laying down thrashing and screaming because of the pain. Sometimes even throwing up. No matter how hard you try you just can not get comfortable. Now that I am older I don’t get them as often, and when I do I take Imitrex. Every once in awhile (about 3 weeks ago) I get a really bad one where I get sick and I am so uncomfortable. Sometimes I get frustrated when people complain about a nasty headache… I always think, try having a migraine! Do you know what I mean? I’ve never been hopstialized for my migraines although I am sure there are times I probably could have been.
Thanks for the words of support. I have made very few friends out here. Only one so far and I haven’t done anything with that person other than getting dinner after work. I considered calling her but ah I dunno. I ended up watching TV and movies yesterday. Today I will watch another movie and read a little. (I also planned and corrected papers). I get to go home to MN for a visit in T-minus 32 days. Thanks for the virtual hug Heather. :) I love hugs don’t you! There are a few people on here that have been very supportive of me this last month and I thank them very much for that. Let me know if you every do come to AZ (although right now the plan is to move back to MN at the end of the school year) Where are you from anyway heather? Oh and I still want to hear the story about your son. :)
Heather,
I’m sorry about your migraine, my wife gets them really bad too.
Laura said:
Same basic concept, Laura. It doesn’t alter my main point that our Constitution is amendable. This means that any rights granted by that document, or implied and not specifically granted can be removed if enough people elect representatives who will make that happen.
I believe in God. Hence, I believe that there are certain inalienable rights that God granted, such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (did you miss that one in your high school civics class?). Since I believe God granted those rights, only God can take them away.
If you don’t believe in God, and God doesn’t grant those rights to you, they are granted by the state. And as such, the state can take them away from you. No rights of yours are protected if enough people vote in representatives who say otherwise.
Lucky for you, I believe in the second amendment, and if anyone tried to take away your right to life without due process, I’d put mine on the line to defend you.
Too bad you wouldn’t do the same with the weakest and most vulnerable of us.
Doug said:
I absolutely agree with you. Point I was trying to make is that if you subscribe to a secular viewpoint, and believe that a state religion is bad for the country, killing those people who might share your viewpoint is a bad idea.
If enough people believe that a certain God ought to reign supreme in the government, it’s a good idea to not let them out reproduce you.
Take the Duggars, for instance. They are quiverfull Christians who currently have 17 children each and every one appearing to be conservative Christian.
Compare them to the next generation of Laura, who for the sake of argument let’s say has two kids.
The Duggars have 19 votes, Laura’s family has 4 votes.
Take it to the next generation. Let’s say the children average 5 kids of their own, and Laura’s kids have 2. Now Laura’s kids’ families have 6 votes, the Duggar kids’ families have 85 votes. And it goes geometrically from there.
The good news is that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar don’t appear to be interested in having a theocracy in the United States. However, change the names to Hakim and Ashaya Hassan who are devout Shia Muslims? They believe Allah ought to control everything including government.
I’m not too worried about “abortion rights”. I don’t believe there will be any such thing in another generation.
But I’m wondering if our culture will ever weather the genocide we’re doing to it. I think ours will. I don’t think there will be a Europe recognized as European in 50 years.
“The Hindus, Muslims, and feminists are people in-need-of-love: where is this to be found? Instead of the monologues have a rally of ‘huggers’, eh?”
Sure, let’s hug them. But really, it has nothing to do with the monologues. You can’t say, feminists’ place is pity– all they need is a hug–because feminism is all about escaping that sort of mindset. Do Muslims want to be pitied? Yes, they can use a “hug”, but forcing them to attend mass is completely disrespectful of their religion and their personhood.
Mass being promoted while not required is a symbol that the school promotes the presence of God in the Christian/Catholic faith; likewise, it is a sign of respect for those equally devout to other religions but love the school for the opportunities it presents.
Not allowing the vagina monologues is them saying “NO.” Even SLU eventually said no to the v.m., which was cut to leave out the most controversial ones. John, my point is, them saying NO is the opposite of “inviting them to the banquet.” It is saying “you are not welcome here.” (Unless you want a hug? That analogy is lost on me.)
Here’s another thing. They say, “this promotes statutory rape.” Well, that part was cut out of our production! Couldn’t that be a somewhat fair compromise? They can say their piece, even if it is not a Catholic moral treatise, but please don’t say anything that is very controversial? And then say, “this does not reflect the views of the Catholic church” beforehand? How in the world would that be heretical?
Does everything produced by college students have the be a strict following of Catholic moral law? Do you want to outlaw masturbation in the dorms? Censor journalists who may criticise the college policies? Only put on theatre productions that are essentially just parables? This, to me, is a suppression of free speech and even the allowance of others to think for themselves. A University like that will never gain my respect!
PIP,
Does everything produced by college students have the be a strict following of Catholic moral law? Do you want to outlaw masturbation in the dorms? Censor journalists who may criticise the college policies? Only put on theatre productions that are essentially just parables? This, to me, is a suppression of free speech and even the allowance of others to think for themselves. A University like that will never gain my respect!supposed to be about promoting the faith. Anything, and I do mean anything, that is in direct opposition to Catholic Teaching should not be allowed on Campus.
You are correct to say that you would have nothing to do with a school like this. You are free to leave. But that’s why Catholic Schools exist. We are not a democracy. The church is most definitely not about polls and opinions. If you think we are then you are definitely in the wrong place. Why do you think we pay the big bucks for Catholic Education when we can get it for free down the street. Park Ridge has some of the best public schools in the country, but I’m paying 6,000 dollars a year for a Catholic Education…and I expect it to be just that. Catholic!
“That would be the ideal, yes. Again, not in a public school. But people are in Catholic schools by choice. If I went to a School of Islam and they required me to cover my head do you think they would be out of line.”
Not if they were a college trying to welcome diversity and a well-rounded education.
“Should they server pork tenderloin in a Hebrew School?”
If their goal is an education that a broad, diverse people can attend. SLU built a vegetarian place for the Hindus at our school.
“Should they be forced to let Nazi’s give speeches at a Jewish School.”
No, not forced. Noone is “forcing” Catholic schools to do anything.
Here’s the difference: what is “encouraged” what is “forced” and what the goal of the university is.
If Hebrew schools’ only goal is to train others to be a Rabbi, then of course everything there would be for the jewish there, because that is the point!
If a Muslim school is primarily there for education soley of Muslims or converts, yes, I would expect them to observe their traditions as such.
But, the Catholic schools like BU, SLU, and Georgetown have goals of diversity, well-rounded education, and a foundation of both American and Catholic values…to call them heretical for not suppressing any sort of alternate view is missing the point of it all. Riiight?
“Catholic schools are Asupposed to be about promoting the faith. Anything, and I do mean anything, that is in direct opposition to Catholic Teaching should not be allowed on Campus.”
Really? So…should science not be allowed, because the science curriculum has the goal of a good scientific education? Their goal is not conversion?
I guess you want the Muslim Student Association, the Indian Studen Association, etc, disbanded because it is not Catholic?
“You are correct to say that you would have nothing to do with a school like this. You are free to leave.”
That’s why I don’t go to a school like that. You can go to Bob Jones University if you’d like, but I don’t.
“We are not a democracy”
I wouldn’t say that it should be totalitarian, either. If the goal of the university is a well-rounded education then making it a totalitarian place where discussions about anything other than Catholicism is disallowed, that would sort of defeat the purpose, no?
“Why do you think we pay the big bucks for Catholic Education when we can get it for free down the street.”
Because they are usually dedicated to true education that is deeply entertwined with the teachings of Jesus, which often make great schools. I mean, Georgetown is a great school.
“I’m paying 6,000 dollars a year for a Catholic Education…and I expect it to be just that. Catholic!”
Yes, but again, you have to look at the goals of the school. What we are getting hung up on here is that some Catholic schools like to welcome people from all walks of life but still have a large Christian presence on the University. I guess others would rather not. For those that value freedom of thought, it would be nonsensical to say that and then do another thing. May I ask again why it is heretical to allow other views to be heard.
A strong point I would like to make here that I didn’t make completely clear:
What a school can do and what a school shouldn’t do.
That is what we are arguing. Any Catholic school because it is private can do what they want. Some are just more strict than others. To call a school heretical because it DOES allow other views to be heard is stupid. That’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not saying we should FORCE schools to be anything, so why should a catholic school be forced to be a totalitarian place? Shouldn’t the school, so long as it promotes the Catholic values, be allowed some sort of freedom to allow the freedoms of others tobe exercised?
In my opinion, a school shouldn’t feel like they have to be a [religious] pseudo-communist institution to be considered religious. I dont’ think it should be forced either way. But you guys are essentially saying, “Catholic schools should be forced to not allow other groups to speak their minds on campus, but they also shouldn’t be forced to let them.” This is an inherent hypocrisy, no?
t@PiP,
you are very wrong because you have a very limited view on what ‘freedom’ entails. For you, most feminists, even most Americans, ‘freedom’ is confined to the exercise of the will – to choose. However, the whole concept of what freedom means changes if you consider ‘freedom’ is so-central a reality that it deserves to be expressed in the whole of life and not only the will. Do you want to be a ‘free’ being or merely have the right to choose?
Much the same shift is made by seeking truth (education) and living in the Truth (who is Jesus).
These two are often united, but it was not for the scholars of ancient Greece that scorned St. Paul. We live in Truth and at times we are killed for being foolish … and not accepting truth. Jesus was crucified because He said He is God. ‘He seems not to have made many friends … after all there are not PhD’s, nor masters on St. Luke’s list … are you there?
Thank you for clarifying. I wasn’t trying to be mean or anything. Just wanted to share. It personally reminds me somewhat of a cult in a way.
I have to agree with you, JM…it sounds, from what you told me, that it could very well be a cult.
One day I will have to tell you the story of how she became this religion. It is quite the story.
I’m very interested!
I hope you are having a great holiday. I had a rough weekend. My brother was at a wedding and I was home alone. My homesickness was the worst it has been since I moved here. I think I cried…. four times yesterday. You know what I miss the most? Hugs! I miss hugs. Before I moved down here I was getting 10 or more hugs a day. I’ve been here for 1.5 months and its a stretch to say that I’ve gotten 10 hugs in all. :( Sorry for rambling on.
Aww JM, I’m so sorry. Here’s a BIG CYBER HUG for you!
“you are very wrong because you have a very limited view on what ‘freedom’ entails. For you, most feminists, even most Americans, ‘freedom’ is confined to the exercise of the will – to choose. However, the whole concept of what freedom means changes if you consider ‘freedom’ is so-central a reality that it deserves to be expressed in the whole of life and not only the will. Do you want to be a ‘free’ being or merely have the right to choose?”
Can’t you have both? Isn’t the inherent freedom of will that God gave a gift? And therefore the freedoms that America itself upholds are not only the capability of being a free agent, but in the freedom of expression (and action so long as it is legal)?
Why would the Catholic education stifle these freedoms? Why not allow it as long as it doesn’t stray dangerously far from its teachings?
“Much the same shift is made by seeking truth (education) and living in the Truth (who is Jesus).”
They should not be mutually exclusive.
“These two are often united, but it was not for the scholars of ancient Greece that scorned St. Paul. We live in Truth and at times we are killed for being foolish … and not accepting truth. Jesus was crucified because He said He is God. ‘He seems not to have made many friends … after all there are not PhD’s, nor masters on St. Luke’s list … are you there?”
I am not understanding what you are trying to say here. That scholars are unable to accept truth? That only those on “St. Luke’s list” should be allowed in Catholic schools? This does not have much to do with myself per se, but to what extent that you guys view education as heretical. Does it become heretical when simply allowing separate views to be expressed? Or when it starts saying that heretical views reflect Catholic values? I believe there are differences between the two, but you guys essentially do not.
JM, I just got up from a long nap. I take Imitrex too! I had run out, and I had a headache that left me unable to move. I had to call 911. I felt silly, but they told me not to. I was throwing up, and it felt like their was an icepick stuck in my skull. I’m still having some visual disturbances. No. They are not ordinary headaches! jasper, I feel bad for your wife too.
Bethany- Thank you for the hug! :)
Heather- I had run out of Imitrex too. I hadn’t been to see a doctor here yet. Once I had my first horrible migraine I decided it was a good idea to call a doctor, make an appointment and get my prescription.
JM and Heather,
If you have problems with migraines, try co-enzyme Q10. Check your nearest health food store for recommended doses. I’ve seen it work wonders!
Mary, thank you. I’ll try it.
PIP,
Yes, but again, you have to look at the goals of the school. What we are getting hung up on here is that some Catholic schools like to welcome people from all walks of life but still have a large Christian presence on the University. I guess others would rather not. For those that value freedom of thought, it would be nonsensical to say that and then do another thing. May I ask again why it is heretical to allow other views to be heard.
Huh? Say that last part again, cuz from where I’m sitting they are saying the same thing…
And as long as the directive comes from the church and not the government, then I certainly do think that certain speakers should be forbidden from speaking and others should be encouraged. Anything directly opposed or anyone directly opposed to Catholic teaching should be forbidden. It’s not like you can’t get that anywhere. Catholic schools should be a safe haven, the one place where you don’t have to listen to heresy, and immorality and filth.
@PiP,
most scholars will not (including priests) accept a reality like Truth (with a capital ‘T’) and fixate on truth (small ‘t’). The Big-T is a person … a who. We follow where He leads. [that is why St. Lukes list challenges us to the core. We think of such as a nice saying, but I have known very few who will actually embrace poverty, hardship and ridicule.] You ain’t there and nor am I. The urgings of feminism is a call to excessive pride. Jesus’ call is to a life of joy. We cannot even fathom inviting a poor person for supper. how about raising funds and taking a group of retarded people for a vacation in France? (a friend did this years ago).
The small ‘t’ are the principles in the head … can be controlled and is at the disposal of the master … a human brain.
“Huh? Say that last part again, cuz from where I’m sitting they are saying the same thing…”
When a Catholic school lists a holistic education as a goal, then letting other viewpoints be spoken seems the next logical step toward reaching that goal. I am not sure which part of this is heretical. This, therefore, is my problem.
“Anything directly opposed or anyone directly opposed to Catholic teaching should be forbidden. It’s not like you can’t get that anywhere.”
Couldn’t you say that about anything? And since when is feminism (etc) directly opposed to Catholicism? Does it teach that a dress must be worn at all times, for example?
“Catholic schools should be a safe haven, the one place where you don’t have to listen to heresy, and immorality and filth.”
Nobody is forcing you to go see the vagina monologues. Nobody is forcing you to take classes that (heaven forbid) discuss sex, nobody is forcing you to take an evolution class. Likewise, should a school be forced not to? Was there ever a decree from the highest authority that says opposing viewpoints on anything should NOT be heard?
“most scholars will not (including priests) accept a reality like Truth (with a capital ‘T’) and fixate on truth (small ‘t’).”
This is a broad statement pointed at no one in particular, but to say that you probably should have something in mind. Would a theologian fall under this category, for example? When people teach a separate subject than Jesus, would that be heretical?
“The urgings of feminism is a call to excessive pride.”
That makes me think you don’t understand it. Wanting to have equal pay, the ability to stand out of your gender role, etc. is not excessively prideful. Saying, “I have a vagina and I think its beautiful” is not excessive pride. It is a declaration of humanity and a call for respect. When did respect ever equal excessive pride?
“Jesus’ call is to a life of joy.”
Can feminists be a part of Jesus’ call? Or must they all be housewives without the choice to pursue another profession? If roles in society don’t matter to Jesus, how is the goal of attaining equal pay and employment opportunities turning away from Jesus’ call to a life of joy?
“We cannot even fathom inviting a poor person for supper.”
Our on-campus group, Campus Kitchens, does this every day. Wanna come volunteer with us?
“how about raising funds and taking a group of retarded people for a vacation in France? (a friend did this years ago).”
Then this can be done.
There are many ways to do such a thing. How about writing letters that free a person of conscience? How about trying to start change to end the tragedy in Darfur? How about spending time and eating with single mothers in the YWCA with the meal that you helped cook?
“The small ‘t’ are the principles in the head … can be controlled and is at the disposal of the master … a human brain.”
Yes.
But this doesn’t really apply to what we were discussing. That is, how, according to you, there is no difference between allowing other people to express themselves and the university saying that [something contrary to doctrine and dogma] represents the Catholic Church.
I would think that the difference is obvious.
@PiP,
I guess not so obvious … been having this same problem in other threads too. Maybe I can explain it this way: Every Mom of a two year old comes across a situation where the young one insists on doing things ‘his’ way … in direct opposition to his mother’s will’. If he is stubborn and insists on playing with cars, what is your role as mother … allow him his free-choice and get killed by a car or invoke your protective role and haul him out of there. [He does Not like option #2 … especially when it’ll be understood sometime.]
Feminism (a substantial part of it anyway) is something like the car traffic. While alluring, it can become deadly … eg. abortion. Reading one of the books by Ayn Rand puts me in that kind of mental framework … not a place for me.
A university is also a business … to survive it offers credits and courses that are appealing. They do not offer courses in flat-earth theory, because that is intellectual heresy. Why do you think it an option to grant acceptance of moral
heresy. [Not Catholic heresy but moral heresy.] Tell me if you ever see even part of the curriculum for mechanical engineering … how to build an efficient gas chamber.
PiP, about the social help ,,, the problem comes about when it shifts to an academic pursuit. [It is very different when you do-the-swimming rather than having a doctorate in swimming, but not actually ever getting wet – called immersion.] A friend of mine was asked to attend a discussion on the poor, knowing that he worked closely with poor people for 40 years. He went to the conference turned around and just walked out, “Silly people … standing on 2″-plush carpeting discussing poverty!” He just shook his head.
“Likewise, should a school be forced not to? Was there ever a decree from the highest authority that says opposing viewpoints on anything should NOT be heard?”
PIP, would you mind if your catholic school invited the KKK to perform a play about torturing black people and celebrating it and justiying it? That would be OK in your book correct? anything goes? right. All view points no matter what. Sick.
[I’m sorry if this gets lengthy.] I?m interested in how others feel about this issue. First of all I’m glad for those who stand up for their beliefs. Abortion has become a big political issue as off late. I tend to follow a more libertarian perspective on most of my political beliefs. I was raised Catholic however as an adult I do not practice a specific religion although I am spiritual and do attend places of worship of various denominations on occasion. I strongly feel that the government has no right to sticks it’s paws into our personal affairs, including the doctor/patient relationship. However I don’t think the government do has a right to legislate against murder. I know in reality there is a (market) demand for abortions, as horrible as a procedure as it may be, there will still be women who seek to have this procedure, and there have been throughout history women who sought abortions. Realistically, if the government decides that abortions are to become illegal, this could jeopardize the lives of some women who may be in a life-threatening position in which a terminated pregnancy may save her life, and then there are the victims of sexual assault. I am a survivor of sexual assault, so this issue is very personal to me. My concern is that they would be forced to carry a pregnancy to term and I couldn’t imagine a young girl, say a 13 year-old assault victim carrying a pregnancy to term for which was forced upon her. This would have terrible implications for the future lives of both children (I say the 13 year old is a child just as much as an unborn child and both deserve consideration) I think abortion very much is a personal affair since it involved personal religious belief and a women’s body. I know that abortion can never be an easy decision, and do believe that abortion shouldn’t be just another form of birth control, and should only be used as a last resort in extenuating circumstances. I also believe a pregnancy forced upon a child, via an assault, is just as criminal as murder, as a survivor I know the life long effect this has on a person. I feel that although an abortion outlaw would save unborn children, it would be a trade off because it would put lives of women in danger. I don’t like the black and white take on the abortion debate that most people define at pro-life vs. pro-choice. Life is more complicated than black and white, and there is a whole lot of gray in the abortion debate, I think that everything needs to be balanced carefully so that we can have the best outcome. In the end I don’t think the government has the right to make this decision. I’ve been following the 2008 candidates and Dr. Paul said in the debate that as a doctor he knows that life begins at conception, and I respect his beliefs. But to me it is interesting that the Church’s historical stance on this position has gone back and forth throughout history. It was dominated by the belief of “delayed ensoulment” either after “quickening” or through a distinction between “fetus animatus” and “fetus inanimatus”: “contraception and abortion were not condemned if performed early in gestation [90 days]. It is only if the abortion is done later in pregnancy that a human soul is destroyed” And the traditional Jewish faith’s position: “The Jewish faith was generally opposed to both infanticide and abortion. An exception occurred if the continuation of a pregnancy posed a risk to the life of the pregnant woman or to her other children. In such cases, the pregnant woman is actually obligated to abort the fetus; the fetus is then considered “radef” — a pursuer.” I think that since we are a country of religious tolerance, and it is known that different religions have different beliefs as to when life begins and what constitutes infanticide, that we can never say with certain, when a life truly begins, or that life begins at conception. The Vatican has changed its position on this issue recently and now states that a life begins at conception or even two weeks before conception. Even “when a delivery goes terribly wrong, and the attending physicians have the choice of (a) killing the fetus, and saving the life of the woman, or (b) doing nothing, allowing nature to take its course, and watching both the woman and fetus die, the only moral decision in the eyes of the church is the latter” (since no evil should ever be done no matter what good may come of it.) The Jewish faith’s current view on the issue differs from the Vatican’s. It can be taken from Jewish law: Halacha (Jewish law) defines when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). “…a baby…becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a ‘partial life.’ ” In the case of a “feet-first” delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother’s body.” So there is a difference of beliefs among modern religions as to when a fetus can be considered a living being. I don’t think the government should be able to decide upon when life begins because there is a difference among (modern)religious opinion as well as a historical wavering on this issue. The issue of when life begins is a very controversial topic to this day and people often express personal beliefs but I still do not think that the government should be the one to decide upon this controversy, it would set a precedent of the government getting involved in religious doctrine. It would assume that all religious beliefs about life are the same (that life begins at conception). Even today the Vatican states there are a few exceptions to its strict laws regarding abortion. I certainly understand the right to life but, even considering right to life, there is controversy as to when a life begins thus controversy as to when abortion can be considered infanticide. If the government were to state that “life starts at conception” they would be inadvertently adopting a religious bias by not acknowledging the beliefs of other religions who may have differing views, such as the Jewish law. I am personally for life in every way, I’m against war, executions and all killing in general, even when it comes to animals, I don’t eat meat! I love life!. But I think there is much hypocrisy among both sides of the abortion debate. I know many pro-lifers who are for execution and war! And then there are “pro-choice” people who are only pro-choice because they hate the pro-life people. It’s become a big fight among everyone and I think that we need to bridge this divide and come up with a practical solution for the good of everyone. The way we can start is opening up discussion over conflict, which means getting lifers and choicers together for communication (as opposed to fighting). I actually consider myself both pro-life and pro-choice, which is the point I was trying to make earlier about all this grey area, some people may disagree and say you can’t be both, but I like to think that we can all get along and create a world where everyone’s free and loves each other and life is sacred all that good stuff:) I’d like to hear what anyone else thinks about what I wrote. Thank you for reading my comment.
John McDonnel and jasper,
It seems you don’t have a very good idea of what feminism is. Have you ever heard of a backlash? After the equality rights of the 70’s much of “feminism” got a bad rap. Fingers started pointing toward people like Madonna as being representative of the feminists gains, the truth is feminists of the 70’s would never have imagined or intended what happened later on in the 80’s 90’s and even today. Feminists get a bad rap and usually those who like to blame feminists or feminism point to those who in no way represent what feminism is or strives for. There are many different “versions” of feminists, they call them “waves” sometime. But really feminism boils down to is the same goals of civil rights movements and equality movements. Feminist have much in common with those who strive for an end to racism, for example. Feminists want equality, this includes a safe work environment, equal pay, equal economic opportunity, freedom from discrimination. And while there has been progress (like the right to vote) sexism, like racism is still alive and well. Many people who don’t understand feminism point at thing like pornography and the proliferation of sex and say say “see what those feminists did!”. Maybe this was an unintended result of the civil rights movement, but pornography and sexual exploitation (like a figure of a “sexy” woman used to sell a car) is not feminism. Being treated like a sex object and forced into stereotypes is not feminism. Blacks and those who understand race can see very well the racism that plays out in our society and will say in an instant that racism is alive and well, maybe not in the form of men in white sheets, but racism is all around us. The same is true with sexism. I don’t think many men, except those who may have been educated by their female feminist friend understands this. I can’t tell you how many guys have told me to read ayn rand. Well after my reading I can still say with confidence that most people do not understand what feminism is about. I say this because the majority of women do not even understand the ideals of feminism or the pervasiveness of sexism in our everyday lives. You will probably disagree with me, but the feminism that you speak of is not feminism. It is a fictitious version made up by pundits commentators, and authors for the purpose of pointing to Madonna and saying “see, you had your little movement, now you can be a single working mom and make $0.75 to a man’s $1.00, so shut up! In fact it is because of feminist that you women have unequal pay and are being beaten by your husbands” Part of this is the blame the victim mentality, but most of it is a whole other topic of psychology and sociology entirely. Along with the Ayn Rand fans there has been another phenomenon, which is whole idea that because of the civil right’s movement and women’s rights that the “white male” is now an endangered species, this is absolute lunacy. I’m not saying that you fall into the crowd who totes this belief (who knows maybe not), but for every rights movement, you will find an often violent backlash of those who ardently disagree. There are a few in this country who would like to see womens’ and blacks’ rights taken away and sadly these people often get media coverage for the simple reason because their beliefs are so outrageous. They will start an outrageous unpopular idea because they can get attention, and maybe they do believe in it, but often they will end up recruiting other who truly are misogynists or racists and so now you get hundreds of people who think the “white male” is being discriminated against and it all starts to snowball. Maybe these people are angry that their girlfriend cheated on them or did something they didn’t like, but nevertheless they are being driven by anger and hate. My point is, that I think you are quite wrong about feminism, there are many who call themselves feminists but truly are not, these imposter’s obviously will attract attention like the endangered white male and soon you have a following as well as a movement against these people. If you choose to disagree with what I am saying, please so I can understand you, explain specifically you problem with feminism and give some examples, my point is not to argue, but to understand and again, I don’t want you to have a misunderstanding, or misinformation about feminists, because I know many people who truly are misinformed. An analogy perhaps would be those who think the likes of a hijacker or terrorist represent Islam (obviously they don’t), this has happened with feminism although in a more subtle way. And jasper, when Pip said that we should tolerate alternative views and allow people to speak freely even in our school, she did not mean that a school should put on a kkk play. You seem to want to jump to the most outrageous scenario. It would be like saying we should repeal the right to bear arms because some nut is going to shoot up a bunch of people. Or that we shouldn’t have free speech because (god forbid) someone might say something we don’t agree with. It seems these feelings of animosity toward freedom and tolerance are more a manifestation of insecurity or ignorance among those who are resistant. Think about how silly your argument sounds. Do you still stand by what you said?
Thank you, nicole, you said just what I was going to say.
A play about women is not a play that is meant to antagonize or spread hate or animosity towards anyone.
It is the Church that feels threatened. My comment about allowing alternate views means they should, as long as the people are respectful back. The play is not disprespectful to the Catholic Church in particular, they just have separate views.
No, I don’t think it is wise to allow a KKK play (or at least, one that is all about how awesome they are). Unlike the KKK, Feminism is about EQUALITY, acceptance, and a greater understanding about women.
I think you two have a misunderstanding of what feminism is about and what it stands for.
Nicole, you explained it much better than me!
Have a good one!