Her first mistake
Evan Marc Katz, author of two books, I Can’t Believe I’m Buying This Book – A Commonsense Guide to Successful Internet Dating, and Why You’re Still Single: Things Your Friends Would Tell You If You Promised Not to Get Mad, wrote a Yahoo article, “10 Classic Online Dating Mistakes That Women Make.” He listed this as #10:
Mistake #10: Thinking That Your Great Date Actually Meant Something
Have you ever had a man say how much he likes you, how sexy you are, and how he’s serious about finding a long-term relationship? Ever have an amazing date where the chemistry was great, the conversation flowed, and you hooked up with him afterwards.
Have you ever had a man do all of these things and then NOT call?
No, you’re not crazy or delusional….
Your mistake is thinking that what a man says on a date actually means something. It doesn’t. It means he’s being in the moment. So don’t put too much weight on a great date. The only way you can tell how a man REALLY feels about you is by how quickly he follows up for another date.
Feminists to the Rescue took issue with that:
In short, ladies, your mistake is in expecting men to follow up on their word. Your mistake is to expect more out of men than what they normally give you as a second-class citizen. That’s your mistake, not theirs….
Oi. Hate catchy little lists about what’s so wrong with women that they can’t get a wonderful man to date them. Really hate them.
I can’t believe but can that Katz declared men innocent of exploiting women for sex as simply “being in the moment,” when thousands of years of the same sad story prove there’s usually premeditation involved. He even quoted the classic come-on lines.
And while Feminists caught Katz’s sexism (dare I say, misogyny?), she missed the real mistake women make here that keeps them from getting a “wonderful man.” Did you catch it?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
would it be the hooking up part?
I am guessing the real mistake is sleeping with a guy on the first date. Not a good idea.
I’ll second that.
In short, ladies, your mistake is in expecting men to follow up on their word.
Well, friggin’ DUH!
You slept with him, he apparently has no respect for you for doing so, you apparently have no respect for yourself for doing so, and you get all indignant that “he didn’t follow up on his word.” You, my lady, are an IDIOT.
Do the indiscretions of women excuse men from being panty predators? No. But you should know better by now than to have sex with a man to whom you’re not married. That’s just stupid.
What makes you think that if you sleep with a man he automatically has no respect for you?
What makes you think that if you sleep with a man he automatically has no respect for you?
Because, frankly, you’re not very respectable, now are ya?
So we’re back to the idiotic archaic insistance that sex is only for married people who would be willing to continue a pregnancy.
Because, frankly, you’re not very respectable, now are ya?
Posted by: Jacqueline at August 30, 2007 2:38 PM
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What a completely disgusting attitude and what a contemptible b**** thing to say.
Why?
I’m a little more liberal on the issue, I think sleeping with a guy on the first date is not respectful to anyone, but I think someone in a serious relationship is justified in doing so. They should have established a level of trust before they jump into it, as I like to say. But this also in my opinion shouldn’t be the pathway to abortion, as they both should trust each other enough to take responsibility of what happens.
Note: That wasn’t an attack. It was an answer. “You” didn’t refer to Leah.
So we’re back to the idiotic archaic insistance that sex is only for married people who would be willing to continue a pregnancy.
You got it. Everything else is detrimental to men, women, and children.
What a completely disgusting attitude and what a contemptible b**** thing to say.
I guess we define disgusting differently- I define disgusting as dismembered unborn children and genital warts (which will effect upwards of 60% of sexually-active people), you define disgusting as believing sex is reserved for a loving, committed, healthy relationship.
PIP -
*applauds* Bravo!
Leah -
“What makes you think that if you sleep with a man he automatically has no respect for you?”
Because most men will tell you that they won’t respect you if you do. Of course, he will only be saying that if you 1. have already turned him down for a date but are friends or 2. you already have a steady relationship with him and he tells you that if you had slept with him on the first date he wouldn’t have respected you or called you afterward or 3. he doesn’t want a first date with you.
But this also in my opinion shouldn’t be the pathway to abortion, as they both should trust each other enough to take responsibility of what happens.
I think we agree that “taking responsibility” for what happens is birthing rather than aborting the babies. I guess where we differ here is that a baby born to people in a “serious” relationship but no real, tangible commitment to eachother is an injustice to that child who would likely end up between parents. So for children’s sake, sex belongs to people permanent marital relationships. Even those long-term relationship that last through the baby’s entire childhood still don’t offer hope or stability to the child.
I have talked to tons of guys who say “If she gives it up on the first date, she’s easy.”
I saw something on an episode of Dharma & Greg (I loved that show) that surprised me. The episode was when Dharma’s parents were finally getting married but were about to cancel the wedding at the last minute. Dharma became angry and said something like, “All my life I was told that my parents were together, not because they were married, but because they chose to be together. Everyday they *chose* to be together. Imagine being a child waking up every morning and wondering if today was the day my parents were going to choose not to be together.”
That surprised me.
I have talked to tons of guys who say “If she gives it up on the first date, she’s easy.”
Posted by: Heather at August 30, 2007 4:01 PM
It’s my opinion that any guy that gives it up on the first date is easy.
In short, ladies, your mistake is in expecting men to follow up on their word.
Well, friggin’ DUH!
You slept with him, he apparently has no respect for you for doing so, you apparently have no respect for yourself for doing so, and you get all indignant that “he didn’t follow up on his word.” You, my lady, are an IDIOT.
Do the indiscretions of women excuse men from being panty predators? No. But you should know better by now than to have sex with a man to whom you’re not married. That’s just stupid.
Posted by: Jacqueline at August 30, 2007 1:56 PM
I seriously doubt that I will ever marry again. I’m certainly not giving up sex. Why should I? I certainly don’t want any more kids. Not that marrying before having children was any guarentee that hubby wouldn’t start sleeping around the countryside. Marriage is a guarentee of nothing.
Jacqueline–
I agree that marriage is the best environment for kids. However, I do not want to say that sex during a loving, trusting, and strong long-term relationship is unacceptable, as long as they are not committed to abortion. If they try not to become pregnant they can use methods (i.e. condoms etc) to refrain from doing so.
I also believe that because many of unwanted pregancies happen to unmarried, single, women, we should have services for her to make it easier to carry to term (especially if she plans for higher education). Sure, it is not the best situation to be born to a single mother, or unmarried mother and father, etc, but we can at least create environments that help the mother provide for her child and enable relationships that help create a nurturing environment so he or she can grow up to become a balanced person.
Sally,
Or just horny!
I agree with PIP. I think that its fine for people in serious relationships to sleep with one another. I frown on causal hookups, but why should marriage be the only place where sex is acceptable?
Jacqueline, I disagree. In having an abortion, a woman is taking responsibility for her actions. She is admitting that she can not deal with either the resulting child or the conditions of pregnancy. If this is the case, not getting an abortion would be irresponsible.
Enigma,
Jacqueline, I disagree. In having an abortion, a woman is taking responsibility for her actions.
And this didn’t occur to her before she took her clothes off why? And a child has to die because she thought of it after the horse was out of the barn, why?
Why?
Posted by: Heather at August 30, 2007 3:39 PM
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Why is she a contemptible b****? Ask her.
Trying to pretend that a woman doesnt deserve respect and isnt respectable just because she had sex with a man she wasnt married to is archaic idiocy and misogynistic nonsense.
You got it. Everything else is detrimental to men, women, and children.
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Frigid idiocy.
I guess we define disgusting differently- I define disgusting as dismembered unborn children and genital warts (which will effect upwards of 60% of sexually-active people), you define disgusting as believing sex is reserved for a loving, committed, healthy relationship.
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Unborn children is an oxymoron and your attitude towards women is more disgusting than a ‘genital wart’. And while we’re at it, why dont you tell me where you got your ’60%’ figure? And explain why you harbor the delusion that a loving commited healthy relationship can only be within a marriage? Your comment about a woman not being ‘respectable’ was misogynistic idiocy.
Because most men will tell you that they won’t respect you if you do. Of course, he will only be saying that if you 1. have already turned him down for a date but are friends or 2. you already have a steady relationship with him and he tells you that if you had slept with him on the first date he wouldn’t have respected you or called you afterward or 3. he doesn’t want a first date with you.
Posted by: valerie at August 30, 2007 3:54 PM
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Then you really hang out with some low lifes.
I think we agree that “taking responsibility” for what happens is birthing rather than aborting the babies. I guess where we differ here is that a baby born to people in a “serious” relationship but no real, tangible commitment to eachother is an injustice to that child who would likely end up between parents. So for children’s sake, sex belongs to people permanent marital relationships. Even those long-term relationship that last through the baby’s entire childhood still don’t offer hope or stability to the child.
Posted by: Jacqueline at August 30, 2007 3:59 PM
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what incredibly arrogance – all those rules you fantasize other people ‘should’ follow or they arent ‘respectable’
I have talked to tons of guys who say “If she gives it up on the first date, she’s easy.”
Posted by: Heather at August 30, 2007 4:01 PM
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Obviously you attract really low quality men.
And this didn’t occur to her before she took her clothes off why? And a child has to die because she thought of it after the horse was out of the barn, why?
Posted by: mk at August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
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Back to your rabid frothing attack of the woman pregnant – typical antichoice control freak misogyny – she just shouldnt have had sex if she wasnt going to follow YOUR rules. YOU should be the one telling everyone else how they ‘have to’ live. And by the way, there is no ‘child involved. There is mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure. And agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy.
TexasRed:
Nope, no lowlife’s in my life. My husband is a great provider, lover and person. And he said the same thing to me (see condition #2). Even my father, who was married to my mother for 39 years before she died agreed. I hang out with honest men who arent’ afraid of admitting their faults and telling the truth.
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As for children being born in married families. I do think that is best, but it is no guarentee that they will stay together. In the age of “no fault” divorces and $250 and your divorce, it is just the same as “I woke up everyday wondering when they will choose not to be together”. I’m Catholic and was raised that way. When I was younger (Jr. High School) Many of my friends parents were getting divorced and that scared me! Until then I didn’t know you could just walk away like that. It didn’t provide me any stability. That is until I asked my Mom if she and Dad would ever divorce and her answer was “I can’t divorce your Father, who would take care of him?” That made me feel better. My Dad was a bit helpless in the domestic department. Let’s put it this way, when Mom died my sisters and I took most of the sharp objects out of the kitchen and any cooking utensil that we knew he had never seen before. (None of us live close to him). We were so happy when he remarried!
I just babbled didn’t I?
Jacqueline–
I agree that marriage is the best environment for kids. However, I do not want to say that sex during a loving, trusting, and strong long-term relationship is unacceptable, as long as they are not committed to abortion. If they try not to become pregnant they can use methods (i.e. condoms etc) to refrain from doing so.
I also believe that because many of unwanted pregancies happen to unmarried, single, women, we should have services for her to make it easier to carry to term (especially if she plans for higher education). Sure, it is not the best situation to be born to a single mother, or unmarried mother and father, etc, but we can at least create environments that help the mother provide for her child and enable relationships that help create a nurturing environment so he or she can grow up to become a balanced person.
Posted by: prettyinpink at August 30, 2007 5:19 PM
I’m so all over the concept of real help for mothers married or unmarried. Having been a military wife living below poverty wages when I became a mother, I know how tough it can be without a support system. But then I chose to continue my pregnancies under such conditions. I couldn’t ask anyone else to do the same if they were not willing.
As for working on an education with a child or children, I’m not sure how we could provide support for a woman with a chronically ill child, one that won’t sleep throught the night……..I doubt if any woman manages an education without surrogate parents for her child.
TexasRed:
“And agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy. ”
I have a couple biology books that you should read. It may help you out with the “birds and the bees”.
Enigma,
Jacqueline, I disagree. In having an abortion, a woman is taking responsibility for her actions.
And this didn’t occur to her before she took her clothes off why? And a child has to die because she thought of it after the horse was out of the barn, why?
Posted by: mk at August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
MK
I’m pretty sure that a woman knows that taking her clothes off does not cause pregnancy. In this day and age, I would hope that she would know that if her BC fails she may abort. I certainly did. I also know that it takes a lot more than sex to create a child.
I have talked to tons of guys who say “If she gives it up on the first date, she’s easy.”
Posted by: Heather at August 30, 2007 4:01 PM
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Heather: If a guy confessed to me that was what he thought of women who have normal, human sex drives, I would dump him. He would have told me exactly what I would need to know to stay away from that man. He would have implicitly paid me the worst insult that he could have possibly have paid me, and shown absolute disrespect to me as a human being: he would have assumed that I should also assume that I shouldn’t have a sex drive like a normal human being. No one could degrade someone to a worse degree than assuming this. I am sorry if you are such a degraded soul as to assume this about women (and about yourself).
Women’s sexuality is NOT something that should be “held out” for the highest bidder! Women are actual players in the game, not trophies or objects–and pretending that it’s RIGHT that men don’t respect women if they have sex with them is just as bad as any man who thinks of women as trophies. If ANY men still think they should consider themselves objects to be held out on the bargaining table until the guy marries them, those men don’t deserve respects OR dates!
I think we agree that “taking responsibility” for what happens is birthing rather than aborting the babies. I guess where we differ here is that a baby born to people in a “serious” relationship but no real, tangible commitment to eachother is an injustice to that child who would likely end up between parents. So for children’s sake, sex belongs to people permanent marital relationships. Even those long-term relationship that last through the baby’s entire childhood still don’t offer hope or stability to the child.
Posted by: Jacqueline at August 30, 2007 3:59 PM
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No one is responsible for gestating a pregnancy merely because she had sex. This is nonsense to the extreme.
Also, if women are able to support themselves as well as a child financially, I don’t see why they should feel obligated to be married to have children.
TexasRed:
“And agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy. ”
I have a couple biology books that you should read. It may help you out with the “birds and the bees”.
Posted by: valerie at August 30, 2007 6:24 PM
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Please post the titles of biology books that state that women are somehow responsible for gestating unwanted pregnancies because they had sex. I want to see them. I want to know who is going to hold women responsible for gestating unwanted pregnancies–especially since many pregnancies undergo spontaneous abortions. Who is going to hold Mother Nature responsible for this?
“As for working on an education with a child or children, I’m not sure how we could provide support for a woman with a chronically ill child, one that won’t sleep throught the night……..I doubt if any woman manages an education without surrogate parents for her child.”
Sally, I’ve had some ideas in this department. I think for all higher education institutions these services should be implemented:
*free day care run by work study students
*dorm scholarship for single mothers (this includes setting aside dorms for mothers, hopefully collectively-where they can have a support system with someone going through the same thing.)
*This also means RAs that are trained to work with children
*sponsored clubs connecting mothers together–activities for mothers and babies, etc.
*in institutions teaching health care professionals, set up ill children (chronic or otherwise) in the teaching hospitals so they can get free or discounted care while mutually benefiting the university
*A pregnancy resources office, for pregnant mothers to recieve information about their options, support structures, etc
*Just as a side note, I think instead of “freshman orientation” classes they should teach life skills classes, which are full of all sorts of stuff including pregnancy prevention etc
I’m sure there are lots of creative people that want to help ease these problems and have more ideas or practical ways of carrying these out. I’m ready for the movement to begin. As FFL says, women shouldn’t have to choose between education and a child. They deserve better!
“Women are actual players in the game, not trophies or objects”
And babies are actual players in the game, not boobie prizes to be trashed. Talk about treating human beings like objects…..
PIP,
They all sound great except “*in institutions teaching health care professionals, set up ill children (chronic or otherwise) in the teaching hospitals so they can get free or discounted care while mutually benefiting the university”
I don’t like the idea of making a child a guinea pig because he can’t afford something better. My neice had to be in the hospital and it was a teaching hospital. It was horrible, one person would tell the parents one thing and another person would tell them something completely different. They operated twice because they “overlooked” something the first time. Just the way I feel though.
I would definitely offer my own daycare services after my kids are older though, love that idea in fact.
Rosie, you think so?
I’ve been in several teachign hospitals myself, and never had a problem. But I guess it does depend on the kind of hospital and school. I just thought it might be a good idea, because teaching hospitals are usually non-profit, and they are connected with the school so it would be easy to access.
Anna,
“No one is responsible for gestating a pregnancy merely because she had sex. This is nonsense to the extreme.”
Well said.
TexasRed,
“Trying to pretend that a woman doesnt deserve respect and isnt respectable just because she had sex with a man she wasnt married to is archaic idiocy and misogynistic nonsense.”
I completely agree.
Jaqueline,
“You slept with him, he apparently has no respect for you for doing so, you apparently have no respect for yourself for doing so, and you get all indignant that “he didn’t follow up on his word.” You, my lady, are an IDIOT.”
Why does agreeing to sleep with someone mean that a woman has no respect for herself? This is due to an archaic notion that rightfully belongs in a heap with all the other discarded and harmful archaic notions of the world.
“Do the indiscretions of women…”
Last time I checked, an unmarried women having sex was not a crime. If this unmarried women chooses to have sex, she is perfectly entitled to do so. She has every right to live by her rules instead of yours.
“But you should know better by now than to have sex with a man to whom you’re not married. That’s just stupid.”
If this is how you wish to live your life, have fun with it. But its not how everyone chooses to live their lives. Sleeping with a man while being unmarried is not necessarily a poor decision.
“you define disgusting as believing sex is reserved for a loving, committed, healthy relationship.”
Actually that’s not what he said. He said that the view that sex should only occur between married couples was misogynistic and archaic. Marriage is not an instant indicator of a healthy relationship. One can be in a healthy relationship without being married. Or one can be stuck in an unhealthy marital relationship.
__________________________________________________
“So we’re back to the idiotic archaic insistance that sex is only for married people who would be willing to continue a pregnancy.”
“You got it. Everything else is detrimental to men, women, and children.”
Sex between consenting and unmarried adults in no way hurts men, women, or children.
_________________________________________________
MK
“And this didn’t occur to her before she took her clothes off why? And a child has to die because she thought of it after the horse was out of the barn, why?”
A fetus is not a child. Abortion does not harm children.
And yes, sex does come with the risk of pregnancy. That does not mean that a woman who takes precautions to prevent it and yet ends up pregnant anyway should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.
Anna -
“Please post the titles of biology books that state that women are somehow responsible for gestating unwanted pregnancies because they had sex. I want to see them. I want to know who is going to hold women responsible for gestating unwanted pregnancies–especially since many pregnancies undergo spontaneous abortions. Who is going to hold Mother Nature responsible for this? ”
Okay – here is what you do. Go to the library. Ask for the science and biology area. Pick up any book in that area and read how babies are made. You see, when a male and female (most mammals and many other species of animal) have intercourse the male releases sperm….oh, I will leave the ending for you to read.
Now let me guess. You are the type of person who says that since birth control was used that means you didn’t consent to the pregnancy right? I’ve heard that alot around here. If this is how you feel, then I have a few thoughts for you. If this isn’t how you feel, then I am posting this for the others who do feel this way. (however, if this is not how you feel, please explain to me how procreation is done without sex. and don’t bother with the in vitro BS because we are dealing with unwanted pregnancies here and not wanted. Anyone who doesn’t want babies and goes through in vitro would need to have their head examined.)
Does this mean that if I were speeding on the highway and I have my radar detector on that I don’t consent to the speeding ticket? The radar detector is my protection against getting caught right?
Does this mean that if I want to rob a bank and I have my face covered that I don’t consent to being arrested? The mask is my protection against getting identified right?
Does this mean that if I jump out of an airplane and the parachute doesn’t open up that I don’t consent to falling? The parachute is my protection against falling to fast back to the earth right?
Does this mean that if I assist in X-rays in an Animal hospital and I wear the apron, throid protector and gloves that I don’t consent to getting cancer? The apron, thyroid protector and gloves were my protection against that right?
You see, no matter what protection you may use there may still be consequences to your actions. In all these scenerio’s I knew that there were consequences to my actions. In knowing this I attempted to protect myself. However, the protection failed. Doesn’t this still make me responsible for my actions?
Also, I have a response to your comment about spontanious abortions. Having had 3 myself in the past 4 1/2 years I think I am more than qualified to reply. Spontanious abortions happen for medical reasons. There is a medical answer and purpose for those spontanious abortions. Sometimes those precise reasons are unknown to us. Kinda like how my father ate correctly his whole life, excercised (he has jogged everyday of my life, and he started before my birth), had regualar check ups and all the right medical tests done but he still had a heart attack. He obviously didn’t consent to that heart attack since he was taking all the precautions but for some medical reason it happened. No reason for it and no one to blame, it just happened. I had sex and got pregnant. I took responsibility for that sex. I lost the baby(s) in a spontanious abortion. There is no one to blame in this scenerio. No one’s actions caused my spontanious abortion. It was natural.
Valerie,
From Leah,
…And our Ignorant Post of the Day winner is Joe!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“I think this type of things happens to a lot of women. They meet a guy who thinks the world of them and things are going really great, then they sleep together. Then neither of them can figure out what went wrong. The jaded girl ends up crushed. She never really gets over it, instead she just accepts it as how the world is. Many of them never learn it doesn
Joe,
Joe,
Lesbians everywhere would be insulted by how you think. Heck, I’m insulted for them! Women do not ‘become’ lesbians because they get disillusioned about men and about finding a good man who won’t just use them. Women don’t become lesbians at all. Some women are simply born that way.
Feminists everywhere would also be insulted by yours views. Since I’m a feminist, I’m insulted. My views have nothing to do with being disillusioned and everything to do with how women are viewed in society.
PIP,
She was in “University of Loyola” medical center and her parents were really toying with the idea of moving her to another hospital. But yes, I suppose you are right that it depends on the hospital, staff etc… I think i’ll have to think about this some more:)
Joe:
Okay, first of all: “My guess is that this is how a lot of lesbians and feminists come into being.”
Yeah, because lesbians decide to become attracted to women because some guy was a jerk to them. Hon, that is not the way it works, and I am so sorry if you have such a backwards way of thinking. And feminists, for the record, are people who are for sexual EQUALITY–the women who you see man-bashing are NOT feminists–they are chauvinists. Female chauvinists.
Okay, moving on.
If this is the case, then isn’t the problem the men? I guess my question is why would a woman want to waste her time with a guy who would treat her so horribly? No guys I’ve ever slept with have lost respect for me as a result.
I wouldn’t call sex before true love the root of the problem–but having sex with someone you are in love with is certainly a more incredible experience, I have found. If a guy loses respect for me because if it, he isn’t worth my time.
Leah,
“If a guy loses respect for me because of it, he isn’t worth my time.”
Well said. I like how you think.
Enigma, “Women don’t become lesbians at all.”
And I am supposed to believe you why? Because this is what some overrated sitcom told you? Don’t be such a tool.
ps:
If the woman loses her respectability for having sex, what about the man?
Enigma: Cheers!
Anonymous,
“And I am supposed to believe you why? Because this is what some overrated sitcom told you? Don’t be such a tool.”
Overrated sitcom? I have to admit that I have no idea what show you’re referring to. I don’t actually watch that much TV.
I base that statement (that women don’t choose to become lesbians off two things.)
The first is medical research. They have shown that gay men and lesbians react to pheromones more like women, in the former case, and men, in the later case, then heterosexual individuals of their gender.
The second is simple logic. Would someone really choose to become a member of a minority that’s faced with so much opposition and oppression (Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell; no gay marriage; ect.)? Does that even make sense? I’m sure that men and women wake up every morning and go “gee, my life isn’t hard enough….I know…I’ll become gay…it’ll be so much better.”
Leah you wrote, “And feminists, for the record, are people who are for sexual EQUALITY”
Feminist are people who are consumed with sexual equality. Why would they be consumed with it if it were not for some man? This stuff is not rocket science. Don’t try to make it more complex than it really is.
Joe
“Feminist are people who are consumed with sexual equality.”
And sexual equality is a bad thing? I don’t think so.
“Why would they be consumed with it if it were not for some man?”
Maybe because they want equal pay for equal work. Maybe because they want to be respected for who they are and not because of how they look. Maybe because they don’t want to be sex objects. Need I go on?
I was anonymous in post at 11:12PM… Sorry.
Joe: I’m actually simplifying it. Feminism has nothing to do with consumption of anything–simply the desire for equality. What’s wrong with that? Why would anyone not support equality?
It’s happened to me more times than I want to remember. Don’t worry about it.
Leah,
“Why would anyone not support equality?”
You know, that’s something that I’ve never been able to answer.
“My guess is that this is how a lot of lesbians and feminists come into being.”
WHAT?!
Joe, the overrated sitcom would be on your end.
“Oh yeah, that chick hated me, so she became a lesbian.”
NO, I’ve never ever seen that in my entire life, and I know a lot of people who are GBLT.
For my prize I would like the coffee cup with the caricature of Margaret Sanger being slapped on the fanny by her hero Adolf Hitler.
Wow. That is… so inappropriate. Not only are you ignorant, but you are offensive. If this is your idea of humor…
PIP: I LOVE the cartoon in your blog!
Well, it’s late and I’m off. Have fun debating and I hope everyone has a good night.
Thanks Leah
Enigma,
Then why are there so many unhappy marriages that end in divorce?
A very dear friend of mine has a theory on this: he believes that people often marry knowing each other only as lovers, when it is important to know each other as friends as well. This way, you know your partner in many aspects–because there are things you discuss with your friends that you would never consider discussing with your lover. If your lover is your friend, you don’t have this problem. My friend believes–evidently–that lack of communication is a huge problem in relationships.
So, my answer really has nothing to do with this debate… which, in a way, sums up my views on marriage–I share those of my friend.
Enigma,
But Joe, wouldn’t the arousal sitution be towards the type of molestation rather than the building?
You are talking about classical conditioning, no? When the bell rings, the dog starts salivating, but he isn’t really doing that for the bell is he? But for the food?
I haven’t ever seen an article, so someone interject here:
CAN you classical condition using pheromones? Have we even isolated and studied many human pheromones? I am not well versed in this aspect of biology, as of yet.
PrettyInPink,
“Oh yeah, that chick hated me, so she became a lesbian.”
I love this… Thanks for stuping.
What does stuping mean?
Also, just throwing your own insults back at ya. You claim that overrated sitcoms are the reasons why we think about something. But I’ve seen a lot of sitcoms where it was the other way around.
Obviously they shouldn’t be taken seriously, as they are said in jest. But for some reason you have focused on them. It’s just…interesting.
Sex is so powerful that if you molested a guy in a hamburger factory every day for a month he would develop an arousal situation when he visits Burger King.
Joe, that is ridiculous and completely nonsensical. Can you back this up with unbiased research?
That’s like saying a woman who is raped in a back alley experiences arousal as she walks through alleys. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
PrettyInPink,
“But Joe, wouldn’t the arousal sitution be towards the type of molestation rather than the building?”
Sex is so powerful I’ll bet it is everything.
I met a divorced woman who’s husband got into pornography. She complained about him buying an expensive flat screen television that he never watched because all he did all day was look at pornography on the computer. He wouldn’t touch her and it caused so many problems that it ended in divorce. Now I am sure this woman had pheromones. At least more available to his senses than a computer screen. But when push came to shove he made his decision. The human mind associates a lot of different things when it comes to sex. If a man is molested it may create an aversion to the molester (As I have heard stories of men becoming homosexual after being molested by their mothers).
A lot of male homosexuality may be able to be explained by infants and toddlers being molested by their mothers who mistakenly think they are just calming them down. But liberals would never bring science to that level. I don
Sorry for the double-post!
“A lot of male homosexuality may be able to be explained by infants and toddlers being molested by their mothers who mistakenly think they are just calming them down. But liberals would never bring science to that level.”
~*~*~*~*~*~*
And I thought I’d seen it all. I really did.
I think I can die now, knowing I’ve met the most STUPID person in the world.
Good grief.
::stabbity::
Rae, I think that the word “stabbity” is probably the cutest way I’ve ever heard anyone express anger.
@Leah: It’s not so much anger as complete, abject…astonishment, really. I’m genuinely gobsmacked at the fact that ANYBODY could possibly come to a conclusion like that.
I…don’t know what to say.
Perhaps it would have been better that I had said nothing anything at all.
Wow.
“Joe, that is ridiculous and completely nonsensical. Can you back this up with unbiased research?”
I don’t really know of any studies. When I said “Sex is so powerful that…” I was going more towards what PIP related to earlier where Pavlov’s dog would salivate after hearing a bell.
The bottom line is sex IS powerful. Maybe not as important to the human person as oxygen or food, but nevertheless it probably has similar properties when we attempt to comprehend it in how it relates to human physiology.
Science has NOT determined the cause of homosexuality. It has looked for the “gay gene” and can’t tell us anything definitive. So we look to the gays to tell us what is going on and the best they can come up with is “we were born this way.” I say that is ridiculous. Who remembers their birth? Much more importantly which one of us remembers when we realized our sexual preference. A good friend of mines wife just “discovered” she was bi-sexual and is moving to Delaware with her new girlfriend. When he told her she should have metioned that before they got married, she said, “Wel.. I didn’t know.” What the heck are any of us to learn from that? Was she born bisexual? Only to find out when she was 25 and married? Or did it have something to do with her father who was locked up for 4 years for possession of child pornography? Science gives me no answers to this. So I am left to speculate.
You may say it is “nonsensical” but it
Psh. I share the sentiment. How could anyone come up with such garbage?
So Leah, how much do you want to bet that Jasper and a few others are going to pop in tomorrow morning and read this guy’s crap and chime in with:
“Right on! You are soooooooo right! Feminists are stupid! Liberals are even more stupid! Christians are the only smart people out there! SCIENCE IS WRONG!”
::stabbity::
Oy vey. I’m almost glad I’ll be on the road all day tomorrow. I mean, I enjoy engaging in debate and everything, but every now and then I get seriously frustrated and I need a break.
Stabbity, indeed.
So… what are you doing up so late?
I’m watching South Park.
I can’t sleep because I’ve been working so many overnights lately, I’m just used to being up all night.
But I think I shall follow your lead and take a few weeks off again as I did before…I recall my mood being vastly improved by *not* being here. I really need to stop being such a masochist.
Cheers to that. Don’t get me wrong (all y’all who are reading this tomorrow morning and all that) it’s nice to engage in debate and all that.
But I am seriously trying very very very hard to eliminate all negativity from my life. Been going through some really hard emotional stuff lately and I feel that the best things I can do for myself are keeping busy and keeping positive. I even tore down all my anti-Bush stuff because of the negativity. No, no, no–I don’t like him. But I feel it’s better to be pro-something than anti-something.
I am up late for no good reason at all and really should go to sleep… but I don’t wanna.
Rae, “SCIENCE IS WRONG!”"
I would prefer, “junk science is wrong”.
And as for “”stabbity” is probably the cutest way I’ve ever heard anyone express anger.”
Yeah… Because it is like stabbing someone with a knife? Actually to use a liberal phrase “stabbity” is too extreme to be cute. You should be ashamed.
@Joe: When I say “stabbity” I don’t mean with a knife. For me, “stabbity” means poking somebody with a spork…which makes it funny.
Good grief (again).
You know what? WHY is it that everybody keeps hiding between their idiotic partisan beliefs of either “Liberals are all godless heathens who want to kill ALL THE BABIES IN TEH WORLD!” or “Conservatives are all a bunch of bible thumping fundies who hate women and homos!”
It’s soooooo frustrating to have people throw around “liberal” and “conservative” like they are insults. Grow up people, mocking somebody by calling them “baby-killing liberal” or “racist/sexist conservative” is very childish, immature and definitely not conducive to mature, educated debate and discussion. Partisan politics does nothing but split people up, create division when in reality we need to be united and it gets us no where people!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
“Actually to use a liberal phrase “stabbity” is too extreme to be cute. You should be ashamed.”
Oh please…again, with the pathetic “namecalling”.
Seriously Joe, grow up and act your age (as I’m assuming you are older than 15, correct me if I”m wrong). I’m not ashamed for using a word that I made up on my own, and that you have misinterpreted/assumed incorrectly about. Bravo.
((sings)) All I care about is loooooove! That’s what I’m here for!
Well, I’m off to bed. Nothing else good is on the tube. And I really should get some rest… what with the 5-hour car ride tomorrow. More like 7-hour what with Labor Day traffic. Woot.
Rae: On the subject of sporks (obviously, you are a spork enthusiast… or something). You know how sporks are always plastic? Well, I had such a discussion with my aforementioned dear, dear friend right before he left France (he left about a week before I did), and on the way home he was served food… with a METAL SPORK! And when I saw him the next week, he gave it to me. Best… present… ever!
Don’t worry, Joe. You’re being poked with a normal plastic spork.
Anna -
“Please post the titles of biology books that state that women are somehow responsible for gestating unwanted pregnancies because they had sex. I want to see them. I want to know who is going to hold women responsible for gestating unwanted pregnancies–especially since many pregnancies undergo spontaneous abortions. Who is going to hold Mother Nature responsible for this? ”
Okay – here is what you do. Go to the library. Ask for the science and biology area. Pick up any book in that area and read how babies are made. You see, when a male and female (most mammals and many other species of animal) have intercourse the male releases sperm….oh, I will leave the ending for you to read.
***************
Anna: Valerie, none of the above that you have stated addresses my point. I know how animals are conceived. My point was that merely because a conception has taken place, there is absolutely no obligation on the part of the original host to allow that conceptus to be gestated to term. Your attempt to address my point falls under the logical fallacy of the “strawman”–unable to address your opponent’s argument, you must pretend the opponent is making a statement that is much easier to counter, and pretend that your opponent does not know how animals breed. My point is that, simply, no one is responsible for what ends up in her uterus–she has no moral obligation for it merely because she happens to have a uterus that conceived against her wishes.
*********
Valerie: Now let me guess. You are the type of person who says that since birth control was used that means you didn’t consent to the pregnancy right? I’ve heard that alot around here. If this is how you feel, then I have a few thoughts for you. If this isn’t how you feel, then I am posting this for the others who do feel this way. (however, if this is not how you feel, please explain to me how procreation is done without sex. and don’t bother with the in vitro BS because we are dealing with unwanted pregnancies here and not wanted. Anyone who doesn’t want babies and goes through in vitro would need to have their head examined.)
Does this mean that if I were speeding on the highway and I have my radar detector on that I don’t consent to the speeding ticket? The radar detector is my protection against getting caught right?
Does this mean that if I want to rob a bank and I have my face covered that I don’t consent to being arrested? The mask is my protection against getting identified right?
Does this mean that if I jump out of an airplane and the parachute doesn’t open up that I don’t consent to falling? The parachute is my protection against falling to fast back to the earth right?
Does this mean that if I assist in X-rays in an Animal hospital and I wear the apron, throid protector and gloves that I don’t consent to getting cancer? The apron, thyroid protector and gloves were my protection against that right?
You see, no matter what protection you may use there may still be consequences to your actions. In all these scenerio’s I knew that there were consequences to my actions. In knowing this I attempted to protect myself. However, the protection failed. Doesn’t this still make me responsible for my actions?
*************
Anna: Valerie, you are responsible for your actions as far as they go. When one has sex, one knows that conception CAN occur, just like a traffic ticket, a car accident, a mishap in a lab. The problem is you are not dealing logically with the procedure that can and does follow this immediate cause of the before stated effect: we pay the traffic ticket, and, likewise, we have an abortion if we do not want to gestate the pregnancy. No one is disputing that pregnancy can occur via sex–what IS disputed is whether or not the woman should be held responsible for GESTATING the pregnancy to term merely because she discovers an unwanted pregnancy in her uterus. And the law says no–you are not responsible for NOT treating the cancer that might occur in dangerous lab practices; you are responsible, perhaps, for getting it, but no one would expect you to fail to treat it once gotten; and, similarly, no one (normal) expects a woman not to treat her unwanted pregnancy with abortion.
AS for the fact that women who take BC demonstrate they do not want an unwanted pregnancy beforehand and therefore have given “warning” of their intents to abort after the discovery of any unwanted pregnancy, I hold them no more or less responsible for the pregnancy than the woman who doesn’t take BC and doesn’t want to gestate an unwanted pregnancy: NO ONE is responsible for gestating an unwanted pregnancy. NO ONE is under obligation to support the life another human individual with her internal organs; by this token, no one is under obligation to support the life of a nonviable Z/E/F with her internal organs, REGARDLESS of “how” the the nonviable Z/E/F ended up there. You can pretend all you like that since it happens to end up there, the woman in question should be bound to support it, but this is nonsense on your part and no one’s human life and human body should be forced to bow to your nonsense–no one should be punished on the basis of the presence of an organ in her system; no one should have to gestate an unwanted pregnancy merely because she has a uterus.
************
Also, I have a response to your comment about spontanious abortions. Having had 3 myself in the past 4 1/2 years I think I am more than qualified to reply. Spontanious abortions happen for medical reasons. There is a medical answer and purpose for those spontanious abortions. Sometimes those precise reasons are unknown to us. Kinda like how my father ate correctly his whole life, excercised (he has jogged everyday of my life, and he started before my birth), had regualar check ups and all the right medical tests done but he still had a heart attack. He obviously didn’t consent to that heart attack since he was taking all the precautions but for some medical reason it happened. No reason for it and no one to blame, it just happened. I had sex and got pregnant. I took responsibility for that sex. I lost the baby(s) in a spontanious abortion. There is no one to blame in this scenerio. No one’s actions caused my spontanious abortion. It was natural.
Posted by: valerie at August 30, 2007 9:05 PM
***************
Anna: And, Valerie, I do not think anyone is to blame in the scenario where an abortion is sought out: the women in question are not to blame for the fact that they have uteruses and that there are nonviable fetuses in their uteruses–they are not to blame for being born female in the first place. An abortion for women who do not want to gestate pregnancies IS an act of taking responsibility of the body and the life of the woman who is pregnant: she does not want a fetus in her uterus, and an abortion is the way of getting it out of her uterus. Women who have abortion are burdened by nature with organs that they do not always want to use; they take responsibility for their very lives by refusing to use them to gestate pregnancies. I consider these women responsible indeed–rather than merely letting nature take a destructive course in their lives, they arrest the growth of the nonviable fetus in their uterus by having it removed from the uterus. Similarly, one can say that we cannot control the fact that certain bodies are predisposed to develop cancerous growths; rather than let nature and heredity kill us, we undergo surgery, chemo and radiation to have these growths killed and removed from our bodies. We take responsibility for our lives as thinking things should.
I can’t believe but can that Katz declared men innocent of exploiting women for sex as simply “being in the moment,” when thousands of years of the same sad story prove there’s usually premeditation involved.
Jill, I read that blog, and I’m quite sure that it was sarcasm.
Have a good weekend, all!
Enigma,
One is always responsible for one
Enigma: Then why are there so many unhappy marriages that end in divorce?
Good question. My opinion is that it’s hard to know oneself and one’s prospective partner enough to really be sure, and that people sometimes rush into it, even if that “rushing” takes years.
I agree that it takes committment, but also think there has to be a real basic *rightness* to it. It’s said that you can work at a marriage, but no amount of work can make up for it not being *right* down deep.
Often, things look better beforehand, and the reality of marriage isn’t known yet, and things are felt to go downhill later on. I’d say you really better be sure, because you often don’t know all that’s coming. So if you have doubts before getting married, I’d say that’s one or even two strikes against you.
There are all the obvious things to point to, like one person thinking they will change the other person, or that being married will change them. Playing long odds there….
Waited until I was 41 before I got married, and I’m glad I did.
Doug
MK: I smoke. I will most likely end up with cancer. Everytime I light a cigarette, I am in essence saying that I understand the risks, but for whatever lame brain reason, I am willing to take them. I accept the consequences for my actions. I don’t want cancer. But I realize that if I get it, I have no one to blame but myself. It sucks, but there you have it. This is called being a “grown-up”.
MK, we all do things where we take on risks, but that really is not any necessary agreement to suffer the consequences without seeking remedies.
If you get cancer, I’d expect you to fight it, to seek treatment, to try and get rid of the unwanted situation. Same for people with unwanted pregnancies – they often will get abortions. There was a risk, and the unwanted condition occurred.
Doug
Jacqueline: I think we agree that “taking responsibility” for what happens is birthing rather than aborting the babies. I guess where we differ here is that a baby born to people in a “serious” relationship but no real, tangible commitment to each other is an injustice to that child who would likely end up between parents. So for children’s sake, sex belongs to people permanent marital relationships. Even those long-term relationship that last through the baby’s entire childhood still don’t offer hope or stability to the child.
Jacqueline, I disagree on it being the responsibility of the woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy, but I think you are right on about there being injustice to kids when the parents don’t provide stability and hope.
Looking back at my childhood, I think of some of the parents of my friends and fellow students, and it’s like, “Whew…they were messed up…”
Doug
MK, we all do things where we take on risks, but that really is not any necessary agreement to suffer the consequences without seeking remedies.
If you get cancer, I’d expect you to fight it, to seek treatment, to try and get rid of the unwanted situation. Same for people with unwanted pregnancies – they often will get abortions. There was a risk, and the unwanted condition occurred.
Yes, Doug, but a baby is not a cancer, which will kill a woman if not removed (in the vast majority of cases). ‘Treatment’, in this case, would be helping this woman through her pregnancy, giving her adequate medical attention, making sure that her pregnancy is as comfortable as possible, etc. Also, counseling is in order in many cases. This is something that we freely provide for women in these cases.
Treatment in this case would not include removal of the baby, since the baby poses no immediate threat, as cancer does. If the baby does pose an immediate threat, there is no dispute over removing the child. So yes, we agree that a woman who gets pregnant deserves medical treatment, we simply disagree on what “treatment” entails.
P.S. of course, the baby is removed at the appropriate time, and if the mother wants to stop being a mother, she can give the baby up for adoption at that time. That is how she removes the baby, not by abortion.
Think about it this way. How long is cancer treatment? Does it happen in 1 five minute treatment? Can you remove a cancer that quickly?
Likewise, you shouldn’t remove the baby until the appropriate time. It takes time. You wouldn’t expect the doctor to be able to pull your cancer out in 5 minutes time, and you shouldn’t expect to have your baby removed within 5 minutes, then dumped in the disposal like a piece of garbage.
“treatment” takes time, and in this case treatment would take 7-9 months.
Enigma -
“This isn
You can’t pick and choose which consequence you will accept and which one you won’t. This isn’t lala land.
>>
Enigma -
“The first is medical research. They have shown that gay men and lesbians react to pheromones more like women, in the former case, and men, in the later case, then heterosexual individuals of their gender. ”
Be very very very careful with this analogy. We have discussed this before. If reactions to pheromones has nothing to do with control than that means homosexuality could be genetic. If genetic than there could be tests to show if your child has a predisposition to be gay. This means a test can be developed to test this in utero. This means that gays could become the next victim of eugenics through abortion. Just like down syndrome. It is estimated that Down’s children are aborted 90% of the time. We do not want this for the homosexual community.
Joe,
” I guess to simplify people who get divorced lied on their wedding day.”
This statement would be highly offensive to anyone who has gotten divorced. Since I’ve known people who have gotten divorced, I’m offended on their behalf.
People who get divorces did not lie on their wedding day. One cannot tell a lie if one believes it at the time at which it was uttered. Circumstances may change later. Things may happen. People fall out love. People loose their children and find that they can’t cope while still married to their partner. Other people find that they married the wrong person. None of this means that any of them uttered a lie when they said “I do.”
oops, that was ((applause))
Leah,
I agree with views on the importance of being friends before marriage.
Enigma -
(joke!)
“And sexual equality is a bad thing? I don’t think so.”
I don’t understand this. Why would any woman want to be a sexual equal to men. We are better than that!
“Maybe because they want equal pay for equal work….”
Hey! We agree on something!
“Maybe because they want to be respected for who they are and not because of how they look.”
Do you think maybe we should stop showing off the look? Example: Have you ever seen a man go to work in a muscle Tee shirt and short shorts? This is because they wouldn’t be respected if the do. Why then, do women expect to be able to wear low cut shirts and short skirts and then demand a man look at our brains. Remember the pheramone conversation……..
“Maybe because they don’t want to be sex objects. Need I go on? ”
Maybe we should frown upon “the apprentice” star who posed in playboy instead of glorifying her. If we don’t want to be seen as sex objects then we have to stop acting like sex objects. Why are most men not looked upon as sex objects? Because most men don’t act like they are.
Joe,
“Sex is so powerful that if you molested a guy in a hamburger factory every day for a month he would develop an arousal situation when he visits Burger King. Liberals would then conclude that men should be able to marry buildings. Then when I complain about this on line, they would say things like,
“A lot of male homosexuality may be able to be explained by infants and toddlers being molested by their mothers who mistakenly think they are just calming them down. ”
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the overuse of punctuation, but I am so shocked and horrified by this claim that I literally have nothing to say.
Leah,
“Why would anyone not support equality?”
You know, that’s something that I’ve never been able to answer.
Posted by: Enigma at August 30, 2007 11:28 PM
**************************
Wouldn’t it depend on the conversation of equality? I mean – equal pay, yes…. being taken seriously, yes….
but do we really want men to treat us as their equals? Have you seen how guys treat their male friends who they consider equal? I don’t want to be treated like that! I want to be treated better than that! I don’t want a man to burp in my face expecting me to start a burping war. I also would not want to be insulted the way men (playfully) insult each other. Need I go on?
I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, its just a thought that has been bothering me lately so I thought I would put it out there….
Valerie, I agree…I want to be treated like a LADY! I enjoy being the lady.
Leah -
” he believes that people often marry knowing each other only as lovers, when it is important to know each other as friends as well. ”
shouldn’t this be the very reason why people should wait until marriage to become lovers? This way when you marry you know for sure that it is indeed a strong friendship and has nothing to do with really good sex. I mean, think about it, Really good sex can feel like a really good friendship because how could it be that good if your not very good friends? However, that happens all the time; mistaking sex for love/friendship.
Joe
“Science has NOT determined the cause of homosexuality. It has looked for the “gay gene” and can’t tell us anything definitive. So we look to the gays to tell us what is going on and the best they can come up with is “we were born this way.” I say that is ridiculous. Who remembers their birth?”
It’s not necessary to remember one’s birth in order to be born a certain way. Science may not be able to answer definitively yet but that does not mean that the answer isn’t there.
“When he told her she should have metioned that before they got married, she said, “Wel.. I didn’t know.” What the heck are any of us to learn from that? Was she born bisexual? Only to find out when she was 25 and married? Or did it have something to do with her father who was locked up for 4 years for possession of child pornography?”
It’s very easy to overlook aspects of oneself, especailly when there is as much societal pressure as their is in this culture to be straight.
It’s also quite simply not to know something about oneself. Let’s use an example. I carry the heterozygous combination for Factor 5 Liden. Basically, it puts me at a higher risk for deep vein thrombosis. I didn’t know this until I was 19. Did that mean that I didn’t have it before then? Of course not. It simply meant that I hadn’t realized it yet.
Joe,
“The older ideas about sex is what we suffer from now.”
Oh, you mean that the idea that sex is acceptable between committed partners as well as during marriage is an older idea. I’d like to see something to back up this claim.
“And it always seems to lead to abortion.”
Married people have abortions to. And just because one has sex outside of marriage does not automatically mean that one will obtain an abortion.
Oh, and there’s nothing wrong with abortion.
PIP -
“You are talking about classical conditioning, no? When the bell rings, the dog starts salivating, but he isn’t really doing that for the bell is he? But for the food?”
Classical conditioning can be whatever you want. You can ring a bell but instead of conditioning the dog to salivate, you can condition him to run into the kitchen. This is the very reason why cats come to the sound of the can opener. They don’t salivate, they come to you in an attempt to get the food from the can. You can condition anyone/animal to hate/like/be attracked to a particular place or smell.
“CAN you classical condition using pheromones? Have we even isolated and studied many human pheromones? ”
Yes.
MK,
“Then “one” is not working with a full deck or so deep in denial that the truth can’t penetrate.”
That’s your perception of the truth. Since I argue that truth is self-created, it fails to worry me at all that I don’t allow your “truth” to penetrate. I much prefer my own.
Waiver arguments would carry more weight with me if they weren’t used solely for legal reasons
“Saying that you didn’t consent to pregnancy when you had sex is juvenile. It’s saying I consented to the fun, but I refuse to consent to the consequences.”
Actually, it’s not juvenile in the least. You’re asking me to accept your definition of the consequences and your definition of sex simply because you believe that your views are right. Now who’s being juvenile?
“It’s what small children do. Adults take responsibility for their actions. They understand the notion of “cause and effect”. They accept reality and don’t try to rewrite science to “get away with” certain behavior.
I smoke. I will most likely end up with cancer. Everytime I light a cigarette, I am in essence saying that I understand the risks, but for whatever lame brain reason, I am willing to take them. I accept the consequences for my actions. I don’t want cancer. But I realize that if I get it, I have no one to blame but myself. It sucks, but there you have it. This is called being a “grown-up”.”
Wow. Just wow. So simply because I don’t accept your views of responsibility, consent, and sex I am suddenly acting like a child? I don’t think so.
Leah -
“with a METAL SPORK! And when I saw him the next week, he gave it to me. Best… present… ever!”
I’ve never seen a metal spork! Thats cool…
Who are you, Joe? You intrigue me…
I also believe that because many of unwanted pregancies happen to unmarried, single, women, we should have services for her to make it easier to carry to term (especially if she plans for higher education). Sure, it is not the best situation to be born to a single mother, or unmarried mother and father, etc, but we can at least create environments that help the mother provide for her child and enable relationships that help create a nurturing environment so he or she can grow up to become a balanced person.
Absolutely! But you do recognize that it’s not the best situation. That’s precisely my point. If women and men made better choices, children can just as easily be born into the best situation as they are into lousy ones. I am all for supporting single mothers, but you’ll recognize that there’s always a defcit there that no amount of external support can fill- like a dad that comes home to the family at night. My friends born to single women that had no fathers tell me that what that absence said was “My mother and I weren’t good enough, or my father would have stuck around.”
There are no guarentees. Just because a couple is married doesn’t mean that one or more of the parents might not die, or have a mid-life crisis and take off, etc. But it’s much more of a guarentee for a child when the couple has legally cemented their lifetime commitment than two people in a serious relationship. And by the way, how does one define “serious”? Serious typically implies strongly considering marriage. So why not just wait for marriage?
So it’s poor choices (one night stands) v. better choices (serious relationships) v. ideal choices (marriage). And it’s not situational. Women can always make the ideal choice. And, making anything less than the ideal choice is foolish. Bad, Better and Ideal are on the table and when choose Bad or Better? How is that not stupid?
Bethany,
“Treatment’, in this case, would be helping this woman through her pregnancy, giving her adequate medical attention, making sure that her pregnancy is as comfortable as possible, etc. ”
Adoption is not a solution to an unwanted pregnancy. It is a solution to an unwanted child. There is a subtle yet important difference.
“Treatment in this case would not include removal of the baby, since the baby poses no immediate threat, as cancer does. ”
All pregnancies pose risks to the mother. It is unconscionable to force a woman to accept those risks when she did not consent to the pregnancy.
Anna -
I wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring your post. It was well thought out. I do think that what I would say to your comments I have already said Enigma. I don’t want to post my idea’s twice.
“All pregnancies pose risks to the mother. It is unconscionable to force a woman to accept those risks when she did not consent to the pregnancy.”
It’s unconscionable not to…. Your way Enigma results in death, our way results in life.
Ladies- It’s hard to respect yourself when someone can so easily gain entrance to your body. When anyone, without any obligation to you whatsoever, can possibly create a life with you and abandon you to parent alone or convalesce after lying on the abortion table, you’ve made a bad decision. Even those “serious relationships” offer little comfort, because how serious is a man about you if he’s not willing to commit to you publicly, legally, and exclusively (sounds like he’s still wanting an easy way out should he change his mind about you).
The only true obligation in relationships is marriage. Although it’s been reduced to almost nothing, it’s still a legal bind and a public recognition of commitment. Boyfriend, Girlfriend, Fiance, etc. are all BS terms, because anyone can walk away at anytime for any reason. This is not a healthy place to introduce sexual intimacy or create children. It may be better than a one-night stand, but it’s still a crappy situation.
Enigma, I too am repulsed by everything Joe has said so far.
I am considering just ignoring him.
I have seen it happen so often. True story. I was talking to a young, attractive black woman one evening. She was crying. I asked her what was wrong, and she proceeded to complain about a man she’d had sex with, not returning her calls. She kept obsessively calling him in front of me, and he kept hanging up on her. She went on to explain that they’d had sex after “hanging out” for a week. She also explained that she had “feelings for him.” Need I say more?
Valerie,
“TexasRed said: “”And agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy. ”
No where in there does it say anything about being forced to gestate. My comment was that sex is the cause of pregnancy.”
That is not in dispute. What is indispute is whether or not a woman should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term simply because she agreed to have sex. A biology lecture doesn’t further your argument.
“Exactly how is that an accurate statement?” (Previous comment: Engaging in an action does not mean that one has consented to all of the possible consequences of the action.)
Simple. Just because I have consented to an action does not mean that I have consented to all the possible consequences of the action.
Let’s continue your car example. I’m blissfully speeding down the freeway because I like going fast. The possible consequences of my actions are as follows: A.) I could get into an accident B.) I could get to my destination more quickly C.) I could have more fun behind the wheel or D.) I could get a ticket. While all of these outcomes are possible, I have only consented to two of them.
Are you really trying to tell me that you consent to get sick or die of food poisoning every time you indulge in a snack or a meal?
Now let’s pause for a moment and ponder a woman’s responsibility for engaging in sex. In deciding to have sex, a woman not volunteer to surrender her uterus for nine months. Her bodily autonomy is not revoked because she decided to have sex. Having an abortion is not shirking her responsibility for having sex. Having sex does not compel her to carry a pregnancy. Abortion is another way of taking responsibility for the consequences of ones actions.
“You can’t pick and choose which consequence you will accept and which one you won’t.”
Really? We do this all the time. If one smokes and one gets lung cancer, one gets treatment to thwart the consequences. If one is in a potentially fatal car accident, one gets treatment to thwart the consequences. Need I go on? Why should pregnancy and abortion be any different?
“It is obvious how much you have missed my point.”
I have missed it because I disagree with it. A woman has no responsibility to continue an unwanted pregnancy. That is based on a false notion of what responsibility is and what a woman’s role should be.
“You say that abortion isn’t murder, yet medical science has proven time and time again that the fetus is alive and is human.”
Um, a little more is required for a death to be considered murder. For starters, it has to be considered illegal. Secondly, the circumstances have to be taken into account. Since a woman is entitled to decide whether or not to allow others to use her body, any actions that she takes in this regard (ie. abortion) to defend her bodily autonomy are justified.
“The heart is beating.”
This is not indicative of human life. Organ donors still have beating hearts too. So why is okay to cut them open and remove viable organs?
“There is involuntary movement which suggest that the central nervous system is beginning to mature.”
Involuntary movement is only indicative of the most rudimentary nervous action.
“There is a response to stimulus.”
I need sources, and I need to know the age of the fetus.
“Why should we destroy a developing human being because we don’t want that consequence of our actions? I can’t just kill a human being because they were in my way and wouldn’t let me live my life the way I wanted to. It is a crime for a woman to kill an abusive husband who won’t let a woman live the way she wants (and all the beating will probably affect her organs.) This is because murder is wrong. She has to prove in a court of law that it was self defense. That if she didn’t murder her abusive spouse (or significant other) she would have died. The death rate for dying from complications of being pregnant is .0091% This by know means says that abortion is self defense.”
Emotional appeals have no place in this debate.
“liable to be called on to answer
able to answer for one’s conduct and obligations”
And that is what a woman is doing when she has an abortion.
“I cannot destroy any human life and then say I was being responsible through its destruction because I didn’t think about the consequence.”
Who says that woman who have abortions don’t think about the consequences before they have sex? No one wants to have an abortion. People have abortions because they feel that it is the best option left available to them.
“All you have to do to understand this is watch National Geographics “In the Womb”.”
All you have to do to understand is to realize that a woman has rights to her own body. All you have to do is realize that a woman who has sex does not agree to share her body with another. All you have to understand is that it is a woman’s right to refuse to allow another to use her body.
No individual has the right to use another individual’s body without that individual’s consent. Why should fetuses be any different. You can’t say that they’re human and then try to give them rights that normal humans do not have.
“It show how medical science has proven that the development of a human begins at the moment of conception.”
I don’t think so. The z/e/f has human DNA but this DNA does not make one a living human being deserving to be treated as such.
Bethany: You can’t pick and choose which consequence you will accept and which one you won’t. This isn’t lala land.
Sure you can; women do it all the time in this matter. In no way do they “owe” it to you or anybody else to continue an unwanted pregnancy.
Doug
I have seen it happen so often. True story. I was talking to a young, attractive black woman one evening. She was crying. I asked her what was wrong, and she proceeded to complain about a man she’d had sex with, not returning her calls. She kept obsessively calling him in front of me, and he kept hanging up on her. She went on to explain that they’d had sex after “hanging out” for a week. She also explained that she had “feelings for him.” Need I say more?
Heather, sex need not be a part of it for that to happen. Plenty of people don’t call again, even if they didn’t have sex, and the other person can be just as broken-hearted.
Doug
I’m back for a moment while Caleb is doing his math…
Are you really trying to tell me that you consent to get sick or die of food poisoning every time you indulge in a snack or a meal?
Enigma, if you eat a raw egg, knowing it could very well contain salmonella, you are accepting the risk, and very well might have to throw up and have very painful diarrea for the next few days as a result, if it actually DID contain salmonella. Yes, eating something that you know COULD cause a problem, is accepting that risk, and you do have to suffer consequences of that action.
Emotional appeals have no place in this debate.
Then why do you people always appeal to emotion with the “poor woman” who shouldn’t be forced to do something she doesn’t desire to do? Or the woman who is raped? That isn’t emotional appeal? If emotions aren’t allowed, then a woman’s feelings or emotions regarding her pregnancy don’t matter in this debate, at all.
Who says that woman who have abortions don’t think about the consequences before they have sex? No one wants to have an abortion. People have abortions because they feel that it is the best option left available to them.
See? “they feel”
feeling equals emotion equals “doesn’t belong in this debate” according to you.
I don’t think so. The z/e/f has human DNA but this DNA does not make one a living human being deserving to be treated as such.
It is not only the DNA, Enigma and you know that. The human child in the womb is a member of the human species, is genetically complete, is biologically alive, and even the sex and characteristics are determined from conception forward. The DNA is additional, but not the ONLY thing making the baby so.
If they are not living human beings, what are they? A dead human being? An alien? A chicken?
This is not indicative of human life. Organ donors still have beating hearts too
And guess what? They’re living human beings. Until that heart stops beating, they may be “brain dead” but they are alive, they are human, and they are not anything else. They don’t automatically turn into “non human beings”. That’s ridiculous.
“MK, we all do things where we take on risks, but that really is not any necessary agreement to suffer the consequences without seeking remedies.
If you get cancer, I’d expect you to fight it, to seek treatment, to try and get rid of the unwanted situation. Same for people with unwanted pregnancies – they often will get abortions. There was a risk, and the unwanted condition occurred.”
Bethany: Yes, Doug, but a baby is not a cancer, which will kill a woman if not removed (in the vast majority of cases).
Agreed, but they are both still unwanted situations, and people will seek remedies.
……..
‘Treatment’, in this case, would be helping this woman through her pregnancy, giving her adequate medical attention, making sure that her pregnancy is as comfortable as possible, etc.
Maybe, and maybe not. If she wants to end the pregnancy then “helping her through it” isn’t going to get it.
……..
Also, counseling is in order in many cases. This is something that we freely provide for women in these cases.
The same thing can be said for many women with wanted pregnancies.
……..
Treatment in this case would not include removal of the baby, since the baby poses no immediate threat, as cancer does. If the baby does pose an immediate threat, there is no dispute over removing the child. So yes, we agree that a woman who gets pregnant deserves medical treatment, we simply disagree on what “treatment” entails.
Yes, there is disagreement about that, and I’m not at all saying that babies are “cancer.” But the fact remains that a pregnancy can be unwanted just like a cancer.
Doug
“It show how medical science has proven that the development of a human begins at the moment of conception.”
Enigma: “I don’t think so.”
If human development does not start at conception Enigma, then when does it start?
was this little boy deserve the right to life?:
http://www.prolifetraining.com/AbortionPictures/22-Weeks.htm
…or do think it should still should be legal because he was violating his Mom’s bodily autonomy?
Rae, 1:27a, said: “So Leah, how much do you want to bet that Jasper and a few others are going to pop in tomorrow morning and read this guy’s crap and chime in with: ‘Right on! You are soooooooo right! Feminists are stupid! Liberals are even more stupid! Christians are the only smart people out there! SCIENCE IS WRONG!’”
Ahem. Pop.
Joe, right on! Your comments were excellent, as evidenced by the exaggerated overreaction against them by our pro-abort friends (and our beloved PIP, who still has some learnin’ to do).
Some modern-day feminists/liberals may indeed by stupid, although I’d say some are smart but have been mislead to strangely attempt to make rules for women according to rules for men and rules for men according to rules for women. My, that was profound. I think I’d better stop.
Some modern-day feminists/liberals may indeed by stupid, although I’d say some are smart but have been mislead to strangely attempt to make rules for women according to rules for men and rules for men according to rules for women. My, that was profound. I think I’d better stop.
That was profound! One of countless reasons why Jac loves Jill.
*deflates*
Well, I think I’m going to shove off again. I may or may not be back in a few weeks.
But for the record: I don’t think feminists should try to have women treated like men. There are very distinct differences between the two sexes that needs to be addressed. Men can’t have babies. Women can. ’tis simple and men and women should be treated accordingly for that reason.
Anywho. Adios.
“and our beloved PIP, who still has some learnin’ to do”
About what?
But for the record: I don’t think feminists should try to have women treated like men. There are very distinct differences between the two sexes that needs to be addressed. Men can’t have babies. Women can. ’tis simple and men and women should be treated accordingly for that reason.
Amen! I also think this difference is why she should exercise self-control and discretion in who we choose to have sex with and when.
“and our beloved PIP, who still has some learnin’ to do”
Hey, Jill. That’s a little condascending towards PIP. She’s very intelligent, listens to counter-points and comes to her own conclusions on issues (as evidenced by her willingness to see that she was wrong in being pro-choice). I expect that even if we don’t agree, that I’ll see her rationale and if we never agree on something, I respect her opinions. I don’t pat her on the head when we disagree and say, “Aww, young ‘un. You’ll learn.”
Thank you, Jacqueline.
Speaking of Joe, I am confused why you are actually supporting him. Isn’t it time you call a spade a spade? In this case, Joe being an extremist?
btw, good news! A FFL speaker is scheduled to come to SLU for respect for life week!
PIP, I didn’t read but pieces Joe’s comments. So I’m not supporting him at all…But I am intrigued. I think him a man in his 60′s. I’d love to know if I’m right.
.
That’s awesome. FFL has some amazing new speakers this year! I can’t wait to see them. I actually have a dream of seeing Sally Winn or Serrin Foster speak. I missed an opportunity in DC last year.
By the way, my membership expired and I can’t afford to renew right now. Double
Yup, we are getting Ann Lworey Forster to speak. I’m so excited!
Hopefully if my thesis for my final paper in Christian Morality is approved, I can use the lecture as a source.
*Lowrey
Jill,
Thanks for the “pop in” comments.
Joe
“In this case, Joe being an extremist?”
And liberals are extreme in their use of the word “extreme”. And also extreme in their use of the word “stability”… And also extreme in he use of the word “spork”.
Because I used the word extreme to describe my “intellectual adversaries” does this give my opinion more weight?
I also think the liberals on this blog are not very open minded.
Valerie,
“Be very very very careful with this analogy. We have discussed this before.”
You may have discussed this before, but I have not.
“If reactions to pheromones has nothing to do with control than that means homosexuality could be genetic. If genetic than there could be tests to show if your child has a predisposition to be gay.”
Correct.
“This means a test can be developed to test this in utero.”
Correct.
“This means that gays could become the next victim of eugenics through abortion.”
So your argument here is that I should not argue that there might be a predisposition to be gay because that might lead to parents aborting their potentially gay fetuses?
You are correct, there is a risk. And people do occasionally abort their fetuses because they have some sort of defect. That does not mean, however, that wide-scale eugenics is practiced through the use of abortion.
Valerie
(Previous quote of mine.)”And sexual equality is a bad thing? I don’t think so.”
This quote refers to the fact that woman are discriminated against on the basis of sex.
“Hey! We agree on something!”
I would hope so.
“Do you think maybe we should stop showing off the look?”
Which is why I do not typically dress in the clothing that you have described. It doesn’t always help. In this society, women are objectified.
“Maybe we should frown upon “the apprentice” star who posed in playboy instead of glorifying her. If we don’t want to be seen as sex objects then we have to stop acting like sex objects.”
I don’t act like a sex object and I don’t glorify those who do. But I am society. I am one person with one opinion.
“Because most men don’t act like they are.”
So it’s our fault that we’re treated like objects? Lovely logic there. Blame the victim.
Valerie
“Wouldn’t it depend on the conversation of equality? I mean – equal pay, yes…. being taken seriously, yes….”
You have a point.
“but do we really want men to treat us as their equals? Have you seen how guys treat their male friends who they consider equal?”
There’s a difference between being on equal footing with someone and viewing them as your equal and treating everyone the exact same way.
For example, I have both male and female friends whom I view as being equals (and they view me the same way). This doesn’t mean that I treat each of my friends in exactly the same way. I can view each person as having equal worth without being forced to ignore their individual traits and attributes that make them who they are.
(Okay, senseless rant first. I apologize. Why won’t the car repariman get here already. I’ve been waiting for almost five hours!!!!!)
Valerie
“shouldn’t this be the very reason why people should wait until marriage to become lovers?”
Actually, that’s a reason in the other direction. For a marriage to work a couple needs to be both friends and lovers. If they work as friends and not as lovers the marriage probably won’t work. How will they know that they work as lovers unless they have sex before marriage?
Jacequeline,
“And by the way, how does one define “serious”? Serious typically implies strongly considering marriage. So why not just wait for marriage?”
Maybe marriage doesn’t fit into the picture. That doesn’t mean that two individuals cannot have a serious, committed relationship.
“So it’s poor choices (one night stands) v. better choices (serious relationships) v. ideal choices (marriage).”
And who defines ideal? What is ideal for you may not be ideal for someone else.
“How is that not stupid?”
It’s not at all stupid to have a different value system than someone else. What’s stupid (to use your term) is when someone else tries to force their beliefs and values onto someone who has their own.
Jasper,
“It unconscionable not to…You way Enigma results in death, our way results in life.”
At what cost? Personally, I think the loss of life (or potential life) is justified by the control that women should have over their bodies. I don’t know about you, but I’d object to being told that the state was forcibly seizing possession of my body in order to help another.
Jacqueline,
“Ladies- It’s hard to respect yourself when someone can so easily gain entrance to your body.”
Why? How do you understand what constitutes self-respect better than the woman who is deciding what self-respect mean to her.
And it isn’t simply a choice between being “easy” and refusing to sleep with a man until marriage. There are may stages in between. Someone who waits years while in a committed relationship to have sex can hardly be said to be easy.
“Even those “serious relationships” offer little comfort, because how serious is a man about you if he’s not willing to commit to you publicly, legally, and exclusively (sounds like he’s still wanting an easy way out should he change his mind about you).”
Maybe marriage doesn’t fit into the picture. Maybe they’ve decided to wait. Why does making something public make it so much more official?
“The only true obligation in relationships is marriage.”
Your opinion. I don’t know about you, but I have obligations towards my friends and towards my boyfriend without marriage being involved.
“Although it’s been reduced to almost nothing, it’s still a legal bind and a public recognition of commitment.”
Why is public recognition needed? Does it make somehow more meaningful? If you think that something needs to be made public to have meaning than I pity you.
Heather
Just because cases like that exist does not mean that it always happens. It does not mean that it’s either that or marriage. All it means is that in the one instance, it happened. Nothing more.
Enigma,
And who defines ideal? What is ideal for you may not be ideal for someone else.
We’re talking about ideal for children. Having two, married parents is the universally accepted ideal situation to raise a child in. Not as a single parent, not as a broken home. Not in some flaky psuedo-family with no legal commitment.
How will they know that they work as lovers unless they have sex before marriage?
Two people that love eachother mind, body and soul don’t divorce because of premature ejaculation or failure to find a g-spot. They work through that. Furthermore, sex to people like that isn’t merely recreational or scratching a carnal itch, but an expression of love and ultimate closeness (the pleasure being a secondary factor). Besides, would you give up someone that you truly loved because he wasn’t quite what you wanted in bed?
I doubt a couple that loves eachother so much they want a lifetime commitment (and waits for sex until the honeymoon) discovers that sex between them doesn’t “work.” (What? It won’t fit?)In fact, all of my friends that waited claim the exact opposite. They take nothing into their marriage bed but eachother and talk about extremely satisfying, intimate (and downright kinky) sex lives.
Maybe marriage doesn’t fit into the picture. That doesn’t mean that two individuals cannot have a serious, committed relationship.
In what jacked-up Jerry Springer scenario can marriage not fit into the picture?
Life has a set of natural rules. You can’t make up your own without dire consequences.
“And liberals are extreme in their use of the word “extreme”. And also extreme in their use of the word “stability”… And also extreme in he use of the word “spork”.”
What?
“Because I used the word extreme to describe my “intellectual adversaries” does this give my opinion more weight?”
No, unless you are right. I would call most of the comments you have said to be extreme in that the majority of even conservatives would have a problem with it. I know plenty of my conservative friends would have problems with it. Like these:
“My guess is that this is how a lot of lesbians and feminists come into being.”
“Feminist are people who are consumed with sexual equality. Why would they be consumed with it if it were not for some man? This stuff is not rocket science. Don’t try to make it more complex than it really is.” (women are simple. They can’t possibly want to be equal to men unless some horrible man jilted them! Not like they would actually want to fight for equality because they think it is the right thing to do!)
“Sex is so powerful that if you molested a guy in a hamburger factory every day for a month he would develop an arousal situation when he visits Burger King. Liberals would then conclude that men should be able to marry buildings. Then when I complain about this on line, they would say things like,
Hasn’t anyone ever heard the expression “I hit it and quit it.” That’s what guys say about an easy lay.
Enigma,
Thanks, but you didn’t answer my 2nd question:
If human development does not start at conception Enigma, then when does it start?
does this little boy deserve the right to life?:
http://www.prolifetraining.com/AbortionPictures/22-Weeks.htm
…or do think it should still should be legal because he was violating his Mom’s bodily autonomy?
I know plenty of women who think they’re “ALL THAT AND A BAG OF CHIPS”…. they tell me about how they make sure their sheets stay afire. Giving up “good sex.”.. Most of the time, these women end up flabbergasted to find out that the bum is cheating. Turns out he met someone who was worth the chase. Men don’t like easy women.
jasper, that picture is awful! What woman could do that??
PIP: “You don’t have to be open minded to intolerance or injustice. The minute it happens one becomes extreme and illegitimate.”
PIP, here is what real injustice is:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/LateTermAbortions/abortedbaby11.html
Jac, 1:10p, said: “Two people that love eachother mind, body and soul don’t divorce because of premature ejaculation or failure to find a g-spot. They work through that. Furthermore, sex to people like that isn’t merely recreational or scratching a carnal itch, but an expression of love and ultimate closeness (the pleasure being a secondary factor). Besides, would you give up someone that you truly loved because he wasn’t quite what you wanted in bed?”
Very well put. I’ve been trying to think of a succinct response to the proposal that one must take another for a sexual test drive before committing. Now I don’t have to.
PIP, I’m sorry, I did condescend to you. For the record, I was referring to your positions on homosexuality and evolution. Am thrilled someone from FFL is coming to your campus. You simply must meet whoever that is (do you know? did I miss it?) and work your way into their organization.
Rae, don’t go.
“jasper, that picture is awful! What woman could do that??”
I know, thats why its important for “pro-choicers” to see the truth.
jasper, I shudder at the thought of those beheaded children. What the hell happened? What kind of a monster could do that?
Nope, no lowlife’s in my life. My husband is a great provider, lover and person. And he said the same thing to me (see condition #2). Even my father, who was married to my mother for 39 years before she died agreed. I hang out with honest men who arent’ afraid of admitting their faults and telling the truth.
*************
A man who has the attitudes towards women which you described is a low life.
Jasper
I know. To keep things in some semblance of order, I respond to the oldest posts first.
Bethany
“Yes, eating something that you know COULD cause a problem, is accepting that risk, and you do have to suffer consequences of that action.”
You completely misunderstand. I’m not referring to someone that you know poses a risk, I’m referring to just normal food. I’ve gotten food poisoning from pasta. Did I consent? Of course not.
I used food as an example because any time someone takes a foreign substance into their body their is risk involved. There could be chlorine in the water. There could be pesticide residue on your fruit. That hamburger could be undercooked and contain tapeworms. Did you consent to any of these calamities simply by eating or drinking? Of course not.
“Then why do you people always appeal to emotion with the “poor woman” who shouldn’t be forced to do something she doesn’t desire to do? Or the woman who is raped? That isn’t emotional appeal?”
Point. I try to avoid arguments based solely on emotion. I don’t trust them. They aren’t logical. They aren’t rational.
“See? “they feel”
feeling equals emotion equals “doesn’t belong in this debate” according to you.”
Okay, in this case I mispoke. I meant “People have abortions because they think that it is the best option left available to them.
“The human child in the womb is a member of the human species, is genetically complete, is biologically alive, and even the sex and characteristics are determined from conception forward. The DNA is additional, but not the ONLY thing making the baby so.”
DNA isn’t the only thing that determines the status of the fetus. You are correct.
“If they are not living human beings, what are they? A dead human being? An alien? A chicken?”
I never said they weren’t alive. I only argued that they have the potential for human life. (I know, it seems a little contradictory, I’ll try to clear that up.) The determining factor in whether or not a human being is alive is whether or not that person has a functioning brain. It’s why organ donation is legal. Even though the bodies are alive, the people are dead. They no longer possess human life.
“Until that heart stops beating, they may be “brain dead” but they are alive, they are human, and they are not anything else.”
Medically untrue. They no longer have the defining characteristics that determine whether or not a body possess human life.
“They don’t automatically turn into “non human beings”.”
Well, technically one is still a human being even when one is dead. One is just no longer a living human being.
Joe used the word “tool”. He must be under 35.
I will determine your indentity, Joe. Oh yes, I will determine your identity.
TexasRed:
“And agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy. ”
I have a couple biology books that you should read. It may help you out with the “birds and the bees”.
Posted by: valerie at August 30, 2007 6:24 PM
********************************************
Youre obviously not very bright. Biology has nothing to do with my statement and it certainly doesnt negate it. Simply agreeing to sex is NOT agreeing to pregnancy. In fact most heterosexual sex wont lead to pregnancy simply because the woman is fertile only a few days out of the month and she can be sexually active any time. Thats how ‘natural family planning’ is supposed to work.
Jasper,
“It show how medical science has proven that the development of a human begins at the moment of conception.”
Enigma: “I don’t think so.”
“If human development does not start at conception Enigma, then when does it start?”
I apologize. You are correct. I misread that sentence. Human development does indeed begin at conception.
Heather: If a guy confessed to me that was what he thought of women who have normal, human sex drives, I would dump him.
************************************************
VERY well put! that attitude says a great deal more about that particular male than it does about any woman!
And babies are actual players in the game, not boobie prizes to be trashed. Talk about treating human beings like objects…..
Posted by: Ellie at August 30, 2007 8:08 PM
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What in the world are you gibbering about?
Does this mean that if I were speeding on the highway and I have my radar detector on that I don’t consent to the speeding ticket? The radar detector is my protection against getting caught right?
*********************
Does this mean youre looking like an idiot, trying to defend a really imbecilic assertions? Why yes, yes it does! Agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy.
Rae and Jacqueline,
“I don’t think feminists should try to have women treated like men. There are very distinct differences between the two sexes that needs to be addressed. Men can’t have babies. Women can. ’tis simple and men and women should be treated accordingly for that reason.”
There are many different types of feminists. Some will argue that woman should be treated just like men. I am not one of them. I recognize that there are differences between the sexes and that these differences should be treated accordingly. But there is a difference between different treatment for different people and worse treatment for different people.
e treated accordingly for that reason.
“Amen! I also think this difference is why she should exercise self-control and discretion in who we choose to have sex with and when.”
I agree that self-control and discretion in sexual matters are important. But I think that they are important, or should be, for both sexes. And I dispute that “self-control and discretion” can only mean marital sex.
He lost all respect for her. I felt so sorry for her.
*********************************
She’s lucky to be rid of a creep like that. It probably hurt her feelings but in the long run she was much much better off without that pig.
Leah,
“If a guy loses respect for me because of it, he isn’t worth my time.”
Well said. I like how you think.
Posted by: Enigma at August 30, 2007 11:11 PM
*******************************************
Yup – I agree.
Joe
“And liberals are extreme in their use of the word “extreme”. And also extreme in their use of the word “stability”… And also extreme in he use of the word “spork”.”
Please, everyone, can we not turn this into a liberal vs. conservative debate? That never ends well for anyone.
“I also think the liberals on this blog are not very open minded.”
I could say the same to you (well, if you change the liberal label).
Besides, the definition of being open minded is not “I’ll blindly conform to your world view.”
My litmus test is the commitment that lasts until death, nothing less.
***********************************************
And youre how old? And have been married for how many years?
A lot of male homosexuality may be able to be explained by infants and toddlers being molested by their mothers who mistakenly think they are just calming them down. But liberals would never bring science to that level. I don
Don’t worry, Joe. You’re being poked with a normal plastic spork.
Posted by: Leah at August 31, 2007 2:09 AM
*********************
Take the plastic spork, bend it a little bit, and then let go – splunk him on the head with it ……
Jacqueline,
“We’re talking about ideal for children.”
And so then the only point of having sex or being married is to have children?
as lovers unless they have sex before marriage?
“Two people that love eachother mind, body and soul don’t divorce because of premature ejaculation or failure to find a g-spot.”
Some people simply aren’t sexually compatible and no amount of love can change that. Some people don’t have compatible sex drives. No amount of love can change that either.
“Furthermore, sex to people like that isn’t merely recreational or scratching a carnal itch, but an expression of love and ultimate closeness (the pleasure being a secondary factor).”
I may not be one of “those people” but I agree. And there is no reason that unmarried people cannot engage in sexual activities for that reason.
“Besides, would you give up someone that you truly loved because he wasn’t quite what you wanted in bed?”
I don’t have enough experience with either love or sex to answer that.
“In what jacked-up Jerry Springer scenario can marriage not fit into the picture?”
Some people don’t want to get married. Others believe that they have found the right person but that its not the right time to get married (think young ppl, high school sweethearts, that sort of thing).
“Life has a set of natural rules. You can’t make up your own without dire consequences.”
Where did you find these rules? I’m not familiar with them.
P.S. Just because you believe that there are rules for life does not mean that they actually exist.
Oy, I’m at work:
“I recognize that there are differences between the sexes and that these differences should be treated accordingly. But there is a difference between different treatment for different people and worse treatment for different people.”
@Enigma: I agree, I don’t mean that one should be treated worse than the other, but institutions like education and the workforce ought to value the contributions women make to society and be more understanding of the fact that yes…women get pregnant and have children.
@Jill: I’ll probably be back, no worries, this is my last message. I’m just getting too frustrated/angry again, ’tis time for a break (again…already).
“All pregnancies pose risks to the mother. It is unconscionable to force a woman to accept those risks when she did not consent to the pregnancy.”
It’s unconscionable not to…. Your way Enigma results in death, our way results in life.
Posted by: jasper at August 31, 2007 9:29 AM
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YOUR way doesnt mean a thing if YOURE not the one pregnant. Its unconscionable to harbor the delusion that youre in a better position to make this decision than the woman who is going to be dealing with the demands of the pregnancy.
How is the destruction of human development being responsible? Why can I not apply your logic to any other aspect in my life? I cannot destroy any human life and then say I was being responsible through its destruction because I didn’t think about the consequence.
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There is nothing ‘responsible’ about having a child you dont want and cannot take care of. Whining about ‘other’ aspects of your life is idiotic. There is no parallell between ‘other’ aspects of your life and being pregnant.
PIP, “Your sexist, homophobic and just plain messed up comments are what makes me think you are extreme. ”
My post was to illustrate how the buzz words you use are weak. For example. You say I am homophobic because I am critical of the homosexual lifestyle. I say liberals homophobic because they are afraid of what homosexuals will do if they are critical of the homosexual lifestyle.
So… In a nutshell… You are homophobic and close-minded. Because to you… Homosexual activity is above reproach. Which is not only irresponsible, but very illogical and unscientific.
Life has a set of natural rules. You can’t make up your own without dire consequences.
Posted by: Jacqueline at August 31, 2007 1:19 PM
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And what does marriage have to do with ‘natural rules’?
I have seen it happen so often. True story. I was talking to a young, attractive black woman one evening. She was crying. I asked her what was wrong, and she proceeded to complain about a man she’d had sex with, not returning her calls. She kept obsessively calling him in front of me, and he kept hanging up on her. She went on to explain that they’d had sex after “hanging out” for a week. She also explained that she had “feelings for him.” Need I say more?
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That woman had a LOT more problems than just having sex with someone.
Hasn’t anyone ever heard the expression “I hit it and quit it.” That’s what guys say about an easy lay.
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 1:26 PM
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As I pointed out, the guys youre hanging out with are scum.
I know plenty of women who think they’re “ALL THAT AND A BAG OF CHIPS”…. they tell me about how they make sure their sheets stay afire. Giving up “good sex.”.. Most of the time, these women end up flabbergasted to find out that the bum is cheating. Turns out he met someone who was worth the chase. Men don’t like easy women.
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 1:32 PM
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Sounds like a great deal of resentment and jealousy on your part and a whole lot of wishful thinking – wanting to pretend that only bad things will happen to these women.
PIP, here is what real injustice is:
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Anyone who thinks PriestsForLife is a credible site cannot expect to be taken seriously.
Hi TexasRed. I think what Jacqueline is talking about is the natural law, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law . Although it isn’t related to marriage directly, I think a lot of the principles that she was saying were pertinent inside of marriage fall under the natural law, although I could just be putting words in her mouth. Check it out, its some really good stuff. God love you, Tex.
Texas Red, I think you have it backwards. I talk to business men, doctors, musicians, and lawyers. So, if that’s scum…… well, what can I say? Did you think I was hanging out at the Jerry Springer show to meet guys like this?
Texas Red, the fact that you make all of these false accusations against me, it makes you look like a real fool. Why are you ranting and raving like a juvenile?
I know, thats why its important for “pro-choicers” to see the truth.
Posted by: jasper at August 31, 2007 1:40 PM
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What ‘truth’? Do you know the picture IS the truth? Do you know its a fetus and not a rubber model or a manipulated picture? Do you know when it was taken? where? who took it? If it is a picture of an aborted fetus, do you know the name hospital or the clinic? do you know why the procedure was performed? No, you dont know anything. You just found a picture on a web page and you cant prove its real and you dont care if its a lie or not. Its something you want to believe so you present it and whine you want ‘everyone to know the truth’ – and if its NOT the truth you couldnt care less.
Texas Red, if you landed your hubby on a one night stand, I’ll bet he’s a real winner. @@
Tex, “Absolutely amazing that anyone could really be this stupid ………. ”
Homosexuals are a perplexing bunch. Some of them support NAMBLA a pedophile organization. Others frequent public bathrooms for sex which spreads all sorts of very dangerous STDs. Some absolutely detest women to the point they can’t be around them. These queer maladies need to be studied, but as soon as someone tries, they are labeled homophobe and discredited.
So… Science fails us here… We need to draw some conclusions on our own. I say homosexuality is a DISORDER. In light of the issues above I would even be so bold as to say and EXTREME DISORDER. You can disagree with me all you like, but no matter how many times you use the words, stupid, extreme, homophobe, it won’t take away from the relevance of my statements.
Texas Red, I think you have it backwards. I talk to business men, doctors, musicians, and lawyers. So, if that’s scum…… well, what can I say? Did you think I was hanging out at the Jerry Springer show to meet guys like this?
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 2:30 PM
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Given the attitudes you say these men have towards women, they are misogynistic pigs and they are scum.
Hi TexasRed. I think what Jacqueline is talking about is the natural law, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law . Although it isn’t related to marriage directly, I think a lot of the principles that she was saying were pertinent inside of marriage fall under the natural law, although I could just be putting words in her mouth. Check it out, its some really good stuff. God love you, Tex.
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I know what ‘natural law’ is. Marriage is a human construct. Life long pair bonds occur sometimes in nature, but rarely. Marriage is not part of ‘natural law’.
Hi Texas. Well, if you don’t believe the picture is real, just google 16 week old fetus and look for an image of one that you trust. Then check out http://abort73.com/HTML/I-A-3-techniques.html which describes abortion techniques. If you don’t believe this site, they have links to abortion providers sites which describe the procedure. So one can find objective facts about how an abortion is performed and also real pictures of the developing human at any week. You can use your imagination to think about what it would look like to have an abortion performed. And it looks like a very small, bloody, ripped-apart person. So i don’t see too much reason to doubt the picture. God love you, Texasred.
Texas Red, the fact that you make all of these false accusations against me, it makes you look like a real fool. Why are you ranting and raving like a juvenile?
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 2:33 PM
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What ‘false accusations’? Youre the one making all these misogynistic assertions regarding ‘what men think’ and ‘how men feel’. How do you fantasize you can speak for men? If anyone looks like a juvenile its you. The attitude YOU SAY men hold is very juvenile. If the men you spend time with actually hold those attitudes then they are immature and they are misogynistic swine.
I disagree. They are just being honest. A misogynist would lie about such things.
DING BAT Texas Red, I talked TO them!!! Pay attention.
Texas Red, if you landed your hubby on a one night stand, I’ll bet he’s a real winner. @@
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 2:35 PM
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ROFL! Talk about looking like a juvenile! in fact thats something that would be immature and idiotic for someone in Jr High to come up with.
“Marriage is not part of ‘natural law’.”
Correct, but I think Jacqueline was saying that other things that were being argued above are part of the natural law. I don’t think she was saying the concept of marriage is found in the natural law.
How I think men feel? What??