Penance

sad.jpgI received this email today from Amanda:

Dear Jill,
I have decided it’s time for me to face what I have done in the past. It isn’t religion that has driven me here, but my own life and the life of my surviving child each day, mine under the shadow that follows me, my past….

When I was 14 I became pregnant, and my mother made me have an abortion. I know people can’t “make” you do it, but at 14 I didn’t know or feel I had any choice. Nor was I aware of just what abortion really meant. I remember seeing the baby in the ultrasound that day.
I could see a little person and the image has never left me. Now I know there were other options for this child. And I carry that with me every day.
As if that isn’t terrible enough, I had a second abortion early 2005. At this point I had a child so I should have known just what I was doing. Honestly, I can’t tell you what it was that made me do it. Well, I had looked into adoption and the agencies and attorneys I had spoken with said that because of the situation with the father I probably wouldn’t be able to put it up for adoption. I was hardly able to care for my child I had. I know it is NO justification for TAKING A LIFE. I know.
Something has deeply changed inside me. I have read about babies suffering through abortions. I guess we (people who would have or have had abortions) have dehumanized these little people. I really didn’t see it that way before. I guess I wish my mother had not led me to believe that it was the best choice. Again, I have no excuse.
After the second one (and I cried as I was coaxed by the clinic staff) I swore to myself I had made a mistake. More than a mistake. Much more. To add to these feelings I had a son who died of SIDS at a later date. The preciousness of LIFE really hit me then. How could I have been so blind?
I am not a religious person, yet I pray for aborted babies. I pray people will search for the better alternative. And I hope people will pray for the children I destroyed. I am so sorry. I can’t be sorry enough.
I am now expecting my final child. A planned pregnancy. I apologize to this one daily for not cherishing his or her siblings as I should have. Babies have only us to trust and depend on. How can we betray that? And worse, treat them like they are trash? I cherish my children. I am deeply sorry for what I have done. I do what I can to make up for it. I try and do good things in this world and raise my children to love and cherish life and people.
And I can’t wait to cherish what I’ve been so lucky to receive, a baby that is protected carefully. Others died to make me really aware of just how precious he/she is. And I hope every aborted child somehow serves in this way, so their tiny lives and deaths are not entirely in vain.
I’m not a bad person. Please know that. I wrote this to finally make my feelings public and apologize to this world for what I’ve done. Thank you for being compassionate and championing a cause that needs you.

I responded with encouraging thoughts to Amanda and told her I would post her note per her request. If you have any thoughts to add, Amanda will be reading this. Moderators are requested to delete any inappropriate comments on this post. Save those for a different post. This is not the time.
[Photo courtesy of SaveOne, a wonderful post-abortive organization]

136 thoughts on “Penance”

  1. Oh Sweet Baby Girl,
    This is the pain and joy of life…that it goes on.
    The joy I feel at your new understanding of LIFE is so great that it diminishes the pain that I feel for the times that you chose it’s opposite.
    Know that there is ALWAYS forgiveness. ALWAYS mercy. ALWAYS a new day…
    Your babies have forgiven you because they are rollicking with their brothers and sisters in heaven.
    Their greatest pain was not the procedure itself, but the separation from your love. The loneliness and sense of abandonment. If you reach out to them now, that pain will be erased. They are STILL your children. They still need and long for their mother. Speak with them daily. Tell them about their siblings. Sing them their lullabies. You WILL hold them one day. And you will be able to look them in the eye and say “You were NOT forgotten, and you ARE loved”…
    God bless you and keep you…
    Your witness alone to the thousands of women out their struggling with their own pain, is enough to know that good CAN come from evil…
    peace.

  2. Amanda, thank you for speaking out against abortion. This is what we mean by PAS. Abortion hurts women. I’m sorry for your pain. I second MK’s post!

  3. Amanda,
    What you did takes courage and integrity. God has forgiven you. God bless.
    Still looking for a house is Massachusetts??

  4. Amanda … thanks for writing to Jill. To take a little aside here, you know what former smokers are like, right? Really driven people you can barely be around because of their new-found fervor for life. Well, that’s what we women who have had abortions are all about. When we realize what we’ve done is dead wrong, then after whatever time is necessary to get to the next step, we can help change the world. Your babies in heaven are fine … they’re hanging with my little girl as we speak. Ask for their assistance (and remember to ask Christ too!) in how you can best help out with the elimination of abortion from this earth. They will answer! I promise! God love you.

  5. Laura sorry this was not appropriate. Jill told you that any disrespectful posts would be deleted.
    You are welcome to repost your feelings in a less offensive way.
    -Lauren

  6. Laura,
    Are you serious? Are you kidding me? I am first going to say that even though it was ultimately Amanda choice when she was 14 to have an abortion parents and other things influence these decisions. Deciding to overpower your PARENT when you are FOURTEEN and say “nope I’m not having an abortion” would be pretty hard to do. You have no idea what her parents would have said or done. Maybe they would have thrown her out on the street or disowned her. Can you imagine losing your family and being forced to take care of yourself at the age of 14?
    Secondly show some respect! It takes courage to do what Amanda did. Where you see it or not.
    I am also willing to bet your comment will be deleted.

  7. Deciding to overpower your PARENT when you are FOURTEEN and say “nope I’m not having an abortion” would be pretty hard to do.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I have to assume she was out having sex without her parent’s blessing. When did the headstrong wild child suddenly become the meek, obedient daughter?
    What’s her point? Does she want abortion outlawed?

  8. Laura:
    My God, I am pro-choice, but shut up!! What happens to a 14 year old is dictated by their parents. Yes, she chose to have sex. But if a mother tells her child “you will do this or I’ll throw you out of my house and disown you”, the child obeys and does what he/she is told (this happened to my friend. She was forced into an abortion by her mother). I feel this wrong.
    Just as I can not tell her woman what she can not do with body, no one should tell another woman what she has to do with her body.
    You make the Pro-Choice Side look horrible BTW.

  9. Also,
    Amanda: I am sorry that you were forced into your first abortion and felt “coaxed” into your second. No one should make another human do something that he or she does not want to do. I hope that one day you will find peace.
    ::Hugs::

  10. Oh my gosh Laura! I have sex without my parents blessing. Does that mean I am a “headstrong, wild child?” I am far from that.
    Her point was to express herself. To open up to someone and share her story.

  11. I’m alright MK, I had a rough week with my students so I took the day off. Currently they are working on a 10 page math packet.

  12. “Others died to make me really aware of just how precious he/she is.”
    Funny how that works isn’t it? I have never had an abortion but can empathize all the same. It makes things much more clear when you see your own child’s mortality.

  13. Yes I am a math teacher. I have four separate blocks of students and they all will be doing this math packet today. Pretty basic stuff. Multiplication, rounding etc.

  14. I’m still in school, actually. I’m a graduate student in math, so I spend my days playing on the computer and downloading podcasts. I do some math sometimes, though. We’re on quarters, so class doesn’t start till the end of the month, at which time I’ll actually have to start getting serious, hehe. God loVe you, JM.

  15. Laura,
    I appears that she has taken responsibility for what she did. Apparently that was not enough and she needed to “express herself” (as JM stated). Sometimes taking responsibility is not enough for some people. Everyone deals with different things differently. And you attacking her is not helping the PC side. We are supposed to support every choice a woman makes. Even if that choice is to later regret an abortion.
    We support ALL choices women make, and this forum is a culmination of our undeniable support of a woman who chooses to give birth, one who chooses to put their child up for adoption, or one who chooses to abort. There is no one singular answer or choice, and those of us here support a woman through whatever she chooses as best for her body, her mind, her family, or herself.
    Support a Woman’s Right to Chose on Facebook. The mission statement says it all Laura. Read it.

  16. I very rarely agree with anything mk says but this time I think she has some good advice. Your children are looking down on you from heaven and they know that they are loved.
    Good luck and God bless sweetie

  17. I hope you don’t delete this because it’s OT but yeah, pro choice means CHOICE. It doesn’t mean you have to get an abortion if you are young or poor or whatever. It means you can have as many or as few children as you want. I think that is one of the reasons I support same sex adoption.
    Oh on that note – Amanda I hope you don’t have any hard feelings towards your mother. I’m sure she thought she was saving you from a whole lot of pain, giving you a chance for a better life.
    Thanks for listening and shareing : )

  18. Yes I am the same Jess that said she was going to throw her tampon at protestors.
    I expect I’ll be a regular here now.

  19. Jess, we tend to get a bit off topic around here!
    Generally, the only reason anything gets deleted is if it is spam or a double post.
    This thread is a bit more sensitive, and we will be editing hurtful posts directed at Amanda.
    You’re fine.

  20. *small cough* I am very sorry that Amanda feels this way. Really, I am. But you can’t use cases like this to generalize how all post-abortive women feel about it. Just a note.

  21. Midnite,
    That was awesome. You saved me from having to bring up the pro-abort, pro-choice argument again. Pro-choice would mean being supportive of ALL women.
    Jess,
    What? You mean you don’t write down every word I say and keep it close to your heart? I’m devastated! :)
    Laura,
    I’m really disappointed in you. You had a chance to take the high road here. I’ve seen you do it before. I love your sense of humor and I love your witty sarcasm…but this was not the time or place. I think an apology is in order. Not for feeling what you feel, but for disregarding someones feelings when you were expressly asked to tread lightly…

  22. Mk, my ex boyfriends mother once told me that if I ever got pregnant she would make me abort. So I said, as sweet as pie, “Like hell you’re getting a say in what happens to my uterus!”. Yeah, now I’m with a guy who is confident that I am smart enough to make the right choice when it comes to my children.

  23. Erin, I don’t think that most of us believe abortion should be illegal because some women are harmed by it. I understand why you would think that, because we talk about both abortion hurting women and wanting abortion illegal.
    We talk about abortion hurting women because the abortion industry has manufactured a huge, irrational PR campaign that abortion exists in a vacuum and no women are ever harmed because of it. We know differently. We want women who are hurting to know that we are here to support them. We also want women who are considering abortion will not always leave them with “relief”, but instead deep emotional pain.
    For me at least, this is outside of the legality debate.

  24. Hey folks,
    time for a wee bit of history, many months BEFORE midnite came on board and everyone else here, Amanda was the first articulate PC to put this fledgling site through its paces – yes, before MK, HisMan and the rest of the PL helpers. And she did run both Jill and I crazy, with her immense knowledge and dedication to PC.
    What she has done here is absolutely immense …….
    in tears … ((((PEACE Amanda))))) and much, much thanks.
    Your kids DO have a super-Mom!
    love you,
    John

  25. Erin,
    To use Amandas story (on this post anyway) to further our agenda would be just as crass as Lauras comments…
    The word ALL and FEEL can NEVER be used in the same sentence. For every person there is a different, complex reaction.
    But the fact remains that some women do share her feelings of regret, and I for one am very touched that Amanda chose to share those feelings here on Jill’s site. I am so happy that Jill’s site is a “safe” place for pro-choice and pro-life alike.

  26. “I for one am very touched that Amanda chose to share those feelings here on Jill’s site. I am so happy that Jill’s site is a “safe” place for pro-choice and pro-life alike.”
    Ditto

  27. Amanda…wait, this isn’t the Amanda I know, right? The one that worked for PP? And…no, it’s not, because I’ve seen her posting on SAWRTC recently. Hrm. Confusion.

  28. John, no, this isn’t the same Amanda.
    Heather, 12:21p, said: “I couldn’t imagine taking this story to an all pro choice blog.”
    and
    MK, 12:16p, said (with a JM ditto): “I for one am very touched that Amanda chose to share those feelings here on Jill’s site. I am so happy that Jill’s site is a ‘safe’ place for pro-choice and pro-life alike.”
    You raise good points. Obviously, it is pro-lifers that post-abortive women look to for comfort and help after the fact, not pro-aborts. Isn’t that interesting. You’d think it would be the other way around.
    Just why is it pro-lifers aren’t the ones who tell post-abortive mothers to suck it up, told you so? By all rights, they should be.
    And isn’t it interesting that we have developed the tools to provide comfort and help, not pro-aborts?
    Worst of all, the most rabid, like Laura, forbid regrets and even add insults, which is unconscionable.

  29. Jill, I’ve often wondered that myself. I went to an all PC site a few times. Every other word was F***, S*** and D***. I don’t always have the best vocabulary, but this stuff was bad! They all took turns making fun of someone or something. I didn’t get it. Texas Red has it down to a science. Laura, maybe you are starting to like us. *puts fingers real close, almost touching*….just a smidgen?

  30. If anyone came to me after having and regreting their abortion I would be there to listen to them and just be there for them. If they felt like it was the death of a child then I would treat it as the death of a child. If they treated it as if it were a blob of cells I would treat it like a blob of cells. And then if they wanted my opinion I would give it to them.
    And yeah I’m pro-choice by the way if you haven’t noticed.

  31. Just why is it pro-lifers aren’t the ones who tell post-abortive mothers to suck it up, told you so? By all rights, they should be.
    And isn’t it interesting that we have developed the tools to provide comfort and help, not pro-aborts?

    Jill: That is not always the case. I would more than be willing to talk to someone who said that they regretted their abortion. And please, just once say Pro-Choice. Have you not noticed that I am not a pro abort by now??

  32. Actually, I ran a search for PC “support groups.” I wasn’t able to find one. Midnite, I’m sure you and jess would be understanding about abortion. You have shown that here. I’m talking about these die hards. The Pro Choicer who only sees it one way. Their way. “Get over it.” “You have no reason to be sad.” That’s what I’m talking about.

  33. Amanda, you have done a very brave thing here to open up and speak about your feelings. I am so sorry about what happened when you were 14, and I am thankful that you have come to realize since that abortion and the last, how precious life is. I am also so terribly sorry for the loss of your other child by SIDS. That must have been so difficult for you. I can’t even imagine. I hope that you have found comfort since that day.
    MaryKay is right, there is ALWAYS forgiveness, there is ALWAYS mercy…. We care about you and appreciate what you are now doing in support of life.
    Best wishes on your new pregnancy. (((hugs)))

  34. Ok those people are pro-aborts, but midnite and I are pro-choice and we support all choices (or at least I do, ican’t speak for her).
    Like when I’m eating with people and they find out I’m a veg they always are so apologetic. But it’s like, just because I do it doesn’t mean everyone else has to. Some vegans hate me because i drink milk and eat cheese.

  35. Oh Bethany I was reading in your blog about the once-a-month-cooking and I’m just wondering what you do for other meals (breakfast and lunch) and if you only shop for those also only once a month. Yeah I’m starting observation in cardio rehab and nutrition so I’m really interested. From what I’ve seen though it looks healthy and tasty (if I ate meat lol).

  36. Ok those people are pro-aborts, but midnite and I are pro-choice and we support all choices (or at least I do, ican’t speak for her).
    Jess: Regarding that you can speak for me. I am not a pro abort, I am pro choice as I described what all I support in a post above.

  37. My bad – ‘Amanda’ in my country is a very unusual name – so, I figured there’d be only one …
    At any rate, what you did was superb … so do not go around kicking yourself …. just hang around here a bit and you will be loved !!!!!!!

  38. “Well those people suck. Just like the extremists on your side suck.”
    That made me laugh out loud.
    I get kind of tired being called a pro-abort too. I support all choices. Just like many pro-choice individuals. I have been relatively respectful here, do I have off days.. Yeah of course I do. But I would like the respect in return.

  39. Well I’m off to eat lunch with my brother. Then i’m going to watch some tv, correct some papers and then go get a massage. I’ll check in later. Have a great day everyone.

  40. Oh Bethany I was reading in your blog about the once-a-month-cooking and I’m just wondering what you do for other meals (breakfast and lunch) and if you only shop for those also only once a month. Yeah I’m starting observation in cardio rehab and nutrition so I’m really interested. From what I’ve seen though it looks healthy and tasty (if I ate meat lol).
    Jess, thank you! I actually do the rest of the cooking daily…although I have considered doing lunches once a month too. I buy certain things weekly, like eggs, butter, lettuce, bread. We have sandwiches, leftovers, soups, etc for lunches.
    For breakfast, the kids usually have toast, and I usually have nothing but coffee, and occasionally an egg.
    I did actually make a whole bunch of burritos at one time though. These work great for a quick lunch.
    You can do this with almost any kind of burrito filling and they turn out great…you can see the pictures here:
    http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/05/21/lots-of-burritos.aspx
    And a folding burritos tutorial here (someone asked me how to fold them with both ends closed):
    http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/05/23/how-to-roll-a-burrito.aspx

  41. Bethany,
    On the cooking note…awhile back you expressed interest in some spanish beans recipes. Basically, if you have access to any Goya brand beans in the hispanic section of the grocery store, you can’t go wrong with the recipes they print on the back of the can. I would add cilantro if they don’t have it on the list of ingredients. Let me know if you need further suggestions.
    And Amanda, thank you. What a cross to bear. May you see your little ones in heaven…

  42. Hmmmmm…..I didn’t know the name Amanda was rare in Canada. I guess you learn something new everyday. :-)
    BTW, Amanda, good luck with your pregnancy, may your child be born healthy and happy. :-)

  43. SOMG, Laura, your comments were deleted. SOMG, we have already answered your question several times in different topics. Please respect the rules.
    Thanks.

  44. It seems to me that Amanda is already suffering enough; A punishment would be redundant. God love you, SoMG.

  45. Bobby Bambino, would you say the same about someone who killed an ALREADY-BORN child and then felt guilty? He’s already suffering enough, so don’t punish him?

  46. And I really don’t see what you’re all so upset about.
    You believe abortion is murder, right?
    So all I’m asking is, how should Amanda be punished for hiring people to murder her unborn children?
    Why is that such an upsetting question for you?

  47. I’d be happy to discuss this more, SoMG, but I don’t think this is the post for it. God love you.

  48. Amanda –
    Thank you for your strength and your words. It took alot of courage to come here and say those things. All your children are with you and love you.
    We know that you are not a bad person. Most women who have abortions are not bad. They are misled. Can you see how your story has brought most of us together? The PL and PC on the same side in support of you. Thank you for that as well. We will never accomplish anything in these debates if we never see the human side of each other.
    No matter what anyone says, it is only God who can judge your actions. Only God knows what is truly in your heart and He knows of your pain before your abortions, during and now. Don’t let the Laura’s and SOMG’s of this world get you down. They are just a handful of people. The rest are people who are here for you.
    May God bless you and your family.

  49. Hi gang,
    yep I is from Canada – you know that c-c-cold place! Actually, it may be my generation too … we now have the phenomenon of kids being named with the unusual names of characters from American soaps. In line with this, my friend Jennifer claimed a minimum of seven ‘Jennifer’s’ in each grade school class, while in school
    & midnite makes my life so simple re. ‘pro-choice’ is a meaningless term, because it means anything what colour towels (besides pink) do you want, YOUR CHOICE …. please defend my right/choice to be a Nazi; … a communist then; …. how about my defense of flat-earth … on and on! [In rather a strange way being PC is actually more cruel than being pro-abort. You can remain indifferent to the inclusion of being supportive person. YOUR choice, non?]
    I think that many are in the pro-choice camp because it’s cool to be different or, at least oppose the smallzie Pl (who all sound like Bible-thumpers and so-squeaky-clean). One of the biggest problems with being cool for so long (like laura & SoMG), when you turn cold, you cannot see the CHANGE from difference to indifference!

  50. John:
    Pro Choice is not a “meaningless” term when it comes to women’s reproductive health (at least to me). You can chose to be pro Nazi or pro KKK if you so wish (but seeing as it does not pertain to a woman’s reproductive health), I will not openly support you.
    I support ALL choices women make; and an undeniable support of a woman who chooses to give birth, one who chooses to put their child up for adoption, or one who chooses to abort. There is no one singular answer or choice, and I support a woman through whatever she chooses as best for her body, her mind, her family, or herself.
    Have I made my self crystal clear yet??

  51. And Also John;
    I do not try to be different by “choosing” the other side (I am just different in general, not by what I support, but b/c of who I am). I have said many times on here that I would not (personally) have an abortion unless 1. I was raped or 2. my life was in danger (aka, if I didn’t abort, I would die). But I do not feel that I have the right to tell another human what they can or can not do with their own body. Did I think it was stupid of my cousin to get his girlfriend’s initials tattooed on his arm in bright pink letters? Yes, I did. Did I tell him not to do it? Nope, b/c it’s not my body. Do you see the point I am making here?
    I am not trying to be cool either. I was not cool in high school (and did not care either) so why in the hell would I try now that I am adult?
    Also, please do not compare me to Laura or SOMG. They represent the fanatical side of my position just like Zeke and HisMan represent the fanatical side of your camp. Do I agree with what Laura and SOMG have to say most of the time? Nope, I think they have no empathy for the human race, and that truly saddens me beyond belief. Do you personally think that AIDS is a “gay disease” and is God’s “divine intervention” to wipe the world of homosexuals? Once again, there are nuts on every side of every issue. Does that mean that he/she represents everyone who agrees/disagrees with an issue? Nope, it does not. I don’t think that ever single PL is like Robert Rudolph. That would be truly ignorant.

  52. I must say Midnite…I feel a parental pride for you today…standing up to Laura and SoMG even tho it meant siding with the enemy…you rock!

  53. MK:
    I told you I can have my moments when it suits me. But honestly they way they were talking about this Amanda girl just pisses me off. I mean when someone decides to do something and then later regrets it (be it abortion, marriage, anything), it is sad.
    You do not rub it in their face (especially when they can hear you, or see what you are saying). Also, if a woman has miscarriage, would they attack her in the same form? I don’t know, but it just bothers me when people attack someone for something that they regret. Especially when they are trying to save someone from the same mistake (they believe) that they made.
    (And Jasper/HisMan said I have no empathy)
    And you just made my day MK, thank you (and no you’re not the enemy. We just have different opinions on some topics, and that is just fine.)

  54. Midnite:
    “I support ALL choices women make” (in reference to reproductive health)
    When would this ‘choice’ be going to far? Some “choicers” believe a woman has a certain time after birth to “abort”. Who in the ‘choice’ organization makes the decision of which choice is right and which choice would be going too far?
    “Did I think it was stupid of my cousin to get his girlfriend’s initials tattooed on his arm in bright pink letters? Yes, I did. Did I tell him not to do it? Nope, b/c it’s not my body.”
    Did you at least tell him how stupid it is? ;-)
    “Do you personally think that AIDS is a “gay disease” and is God’s “divine intervention” to wipe the world of homosexuals? ”
    You know that I have to say this right? If DNA can prove a “gay” gene it won’t be AIDS that will wipe the world of homosexuals. It could be abortion. Never forget that 90% of Down’s children are aborted and I don’t think they are discriminated against as much as gay’s are.
    ALSO –
    I agree with MK. You are standing up for your beliefs and not letting some organization/group to tell you what to think and how to act. I’m really glad you are here.
    ;-)

  55. but midnite,
    over and over …. you say you choose to be human. In logic your choice is +A – +B or +A + +B where +A is Mom; +B(is her baby) …and ‘+’ living; ‘-‘ dead. Please note that the +B means that the baby is alive is both cases … so, your choice is keeping a live baby living or making a live baby dead … and this is a right (for pregnant humans)? In must be some kind of pretend humanity that will choose to kill its own.
    Abortion wil not cause a woman to be un-pregnant as much as it will cause death to her offspring. The baby is the one purposely/selectively killed in abortion …. ‘pro-choice’ is a choice to obscure what is direct. It does no favors!

  56. Thanks Valerie :-)
    And yes I told him I thought it was stupid, and he agrees with me now that they broke up.
    Also, I don’t always agree with other choicers, b/c honestly I don’t have to (and some them I think are aliens, aka not human). I have my own opinions on the topic and they are the only ones that I follow.
    When would this ‘choice’ be going to far? Some “choicers” believe a woman has a certain time after birth to “abort”. Who in the ‘choice’ organization makes the decision of which choice is right and which choice would be going too far?
    I don’t think third trimester abortions should be done unless they are necessary to save a woman’s life (no silly shit like I am depressed. Real life danger to the mother). I don’t think it is the “choice organizations” right to chose, it should be up to the woman. Nor should it be old white men on Capital Hill telling her the right choice to make.
    “Aborting a child” after birth? I think that is infanticide, murder and illegal. If the woman in question is mentally ill, get her the help she needs. If she had a culpable mental state, causation & actus reas; well send her ass to jail and throw away the key (I say this b/c most of y’all are against the death penalty, and I am not. Another topic for another time).
    If the mother doesn’t want to abort, but doesn’t want to keep her child; let me help her find an adoption agency that will make sure her baby finds a good home. If she wants to keep her child, more power to her. Let me help her find some programs to help her along the way if she needs them.
    ———————
    Does that make any sense or did I just ramble too long?

  57. over and over …. you say you choose to be human. In logic your choice is +A – +B or +A + +B where +A is Mom; +B(is her baby) …and ‘+’ living; ‘-‘ dead. Please note that the +B means that the baby is alive is both cases … so, your choice is keeping a live baby living or making a live baby dead … and this is a right (for pregnant humans)? In must be some kind of pretend humanity that will choose to kill its own.
    Abortion will not cause a woman to be un-pregnant as much as it will cause death to her offspring. The baby is the one purposely/selectively killed in abortion …. ‘pro-choice’ is a choice to obscure what is direct. It does no favors!
    First let me note that I did not chose to be human. Hell I did not chose to be born. I just was. And sometimes I think my mother waisted nine months of her life (but that is a horse of a different color for another time as well).
    Yes, I know what abortion does. It kills a human. But it is still to this day legal in America (and other countries as well). Where we disagree is how much “Rights” you afford this unborn child. Why should this child have more rights than a live human does? (I think we have discussed this before at length if I am not mistaken).
    And yes the death (as you say) of her fetus will make her un-pregnant. And that, apparently is the outcome said woman desires.

  58. “I did actually make a whole bunch of burritos at one time though. These work great for a quick lunch.”
    I love bean burritos! Thanks!
    If we learned anything today I hope it was that there are good and bad people on each side and if we really want things to change then we have to not only be empathetic but sympathetic.

  59. Midnight, children and disabled people have “more” rights than able bodied adults. While I would be charged with neglect if I kicked my 2 year old son out on the streets, my in laws could kick my 21 year old brother in law out of their house and no one would bat an eye. (Well, other than those who would say “He’s 21 and still living at home?!?!”)
    My point is, children are a protected class in our society. The fact that such class exists immediatley nulifies any argument regarding “special rights” not existing.

  60. Um, yes it does Lauren. You can not be forced to keep me alive, nor can I be forced to keep you alive. No adult human can be forced into that situation.

  61. The death penalty is not a deterrant. The highest crime rates are in states where they execute the most prisoners.
    Jesus, Zeke, I wonder sometimes how you can be so unforgiving. Is there a heart under there?
    Also, Valerie, simply finding the gay gene would not be enough to know if the child you are carrying will be gay or not.
    simply put, we would have to know whether it was dominant or recessive, or complex (on different loci). I think it would be very hard to predict, esp. if the gene would not represent a condition (i.e. risks to health).

  62. Midnite, you argued that there were no “special rights for certain people”, I showed you that there are.
    Your only argument is to prove that A)Rights are weighted and B) In this weighted system the right to bodily domain superceeds the right to life.
    I do not think this is possible, especially if we look to our constitution as a guide to our rights.

  63. Bethany: For breakfast, the kids usually have toast, and I usually have nothing but coffee, and occasionally an egg.
    I think that’s the greatest breakfast – just coffee. Sure, there are various reasons why this isn’t that good, overall, but it’s fast and easy and lunch or supper isn’t that far away and you haven’t done much in the morning, yet…
    Doug

  64. John: yep I is from Canada – you know that c-c-cold place!
    Lots of good people in Canada. I think the average Canadian is nicer than the average American.
    Worked in Canada from 1986 through 1994, and lived there the last 4 years, in Nova Scotia.
    Doug

  65. Midnite –
    “Also, I don’t always agree with other choicers, b/c honestly I don’t have to (and some them I think are aliens, aka not human). I have my own opinions on the topic and they are the only ones that I follow. ”
    I think that is my biggest problem with the Pro-Choice movement. There is no uniformity. Everything is just so wishy washy and no one will make a decision. Sure, you all make individuale decisions, but there is no guidence; no mentorship. I know that Pro-Life have some disagreements too….but we have very vocal decision makers. Some PC say no abortion after first trimester, others say into second is okay. some say the baby is human, others say the baby is a blob of tissue. There are no ideas as to when life starts – that is left to the individuale to decide. There are no ideas on life of mother when the baby is viable – why isn’t it considered murder when a baby is aborted but could have lived outside the womb? 3rd trimester abortions are the riskiest of all abortions – yet some still say “life of mother” when the only way to remove the baby one way or another is the same. Only difference is in one method that baby lives, in the other the baby dies. No difference to the mother. (not to mention the AMA can’t even come up with a legit “life of mother” reason for abortion when the baby is viable.)
    Gee, now whose babbling? I guess what I am saying is that no one will make a decision in the PC group. Sure, they say keep abortion legal, but no one knows when limitations should be set.
    “I don’t think it is the “choice organizations” right to chose, it should be up to the woman.”
    But shouldn’t the “choice” people provide some sort of guidence? In Pro-Life we are told that the answer is life no matter what. If we think any other way than we are really pro-choice with limitations. Someone has made a decision. Not all may agree with it, but at least a decision was made.
    but I digress….
    “”Aborting a child” after birth? I think that is infanticide, murder and illegal. ”
    Actually that wasn’t the case until the partial birth abortion was banned. Until then, if the baby was accidently born, S/he didn’t even get a chance to fight for life. The doctor would take that chance away. Also, why wasn’t it murder when 3/4 of the baby was out of the mother’s body?
    —- I know I’m asking you question you can’t possibly answer outside of your opinion. And to be honest, I would understand if you just ignored this post all together. ;-)

  66. PIP –
    “Also, Valerie, simply finding the gay gene would not be enough to know if the child you are carrying will be gay or not.
    simply put, we would have to know whether it was dominant or recessive, or complex (on different loci). I think it would be very hard to predict, esp. if the gene would not represent a condition (i.e. risks to health).”
    The triple screen and quad screen tests are not that 100% accurate. And since 90% of postives are being aborted, no one can say for sure how accurate the screenings are now. There are alot of false-positives and false-negatives.
    What you say about the test not being enough for people to want to abort – same thing was said when the Trisomy 18 was first discussed. Now we have researchers finding out how they can test earlier so abortions can be done at the safest time for the mother.
    Don’t turn your back on this one PIP – you have no idea how society will react.

  67. “I think that is my biggest problem with the Pro-Choice movement. There is no uniformity. Everything is just so wishy washy and no one will make a decision.”
    Amen Valerie.

  68. Jess,
    If we learned anything today I hope it was that there are good and bad people on each side and if we really want things to change then we have to not only be empathetic but sympathetic.
    The fact that you view this site and these posts as an opportunity to “learn something” is awesome. It speaks volumes about you. We might agree on more than you think. I too view these discussions as learning experiences. That was really nice to hear. Thanks.

  69. Valerie: I think that is my biggest problem with the Pro-Choice movement. There is no uniformity. Everything is just so wishy washy and no one will make a decision. Sure, you all make individual decisions, but there is no guidance; no mentorship. I know that Pro-Life have some disagreements too….but we have very vocal decision makers.
    Nothing “wishy-washy” about it, Valerie. To viability, leave it to the woman. Who needs “guidance” for that? Who needs “mentorship”? We don’t need to be told how to think.
    …….
    Some PC say no abortion after first trimester, others say into second is okay. some say the baby is human, others say the baby is a blob of tissue.
    Yes, some people feel different about the second trimester. If you see somebody say “the baby is not human,” then they are wrong. “Blob of tissue” – applies at some stages depending on the observer. Heck, we’re all “blobs of tissue,” looking at it one way.
    ……
    There are no ideas as to when life starts – that is left to the individuale to decide.
    Not really. Continuing or ending the pregnancy is what is left to the individual.
    …….
    There are no ideas on life of mother when the baby is viable – why isn’t it considered murder when a baby is aborted but could have lived outside the womb? 3rd trimester abortions are the riskiest of all abortions – yet some still say “life of mother” when the only way to remove the baby one way or another is the same. Only difference is in one method that baby lives, in the other the baby dies. No difference to the mother. (not to mention the AMA can’t even come up with a legit “life of mother” reason for abortion when the baby is viable.)
    Most times the pregnancy can be ended by inducing delivery after viability. There are some cases of gestational diabetes, heart disease, etc., occasionally there are factors like the position of the fetus in the womb which complicates things further, but abortion in the third trimester is very rare to start with, and those are usually for atypical reasons, not because the woman just doesn’t want to be pregnant.
    Doug

  70. Doug,
    To viability, leave it to the woman.
    That’s your valuation. If it was everyones then we wouldn’t have had to pass the “Born Alive” act, or ban partial birth abortion…Apparently many people believe that past viability is okay. Including people on this board.
    but abortion in the third trimester is very rare to start with, and those are usually for atypical reasons, not because the woman just doesn’t want to be pregnant.
    I may be rarer, but 4,000 a year is not rare. And they ARE done because the woman just doesn’t want to be pregnant…it’s too late tonight but if you want me to tomorrow, I’ll give you plenty of examples. Plenty!

  71. Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there is no exact data for the number of abortions performed after viability. [14] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[15]
    wikipedia

  72. * More than a million abortions every year is a staggeringly high figure, especially when one considers that the number of unborn babies who die every year from abortion is higher than all American casualties from the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World War I & 11, the Korean War, Vietnam, and Persian Gulf Wars combined.
    o Abortions 1.5 million/year
    o Gulf War less than 200
    o Vietnam War 58,151
    o Korean War 54,246
    o WW II 407,316
    o WW I 116,708
    o Civil War 498,332
    o Revol. War 25,324
    o Total War Deaths 1,043,569

  73. Nearly all of the 1.3 million abortions a year are done because the woman did not want to be pregnant at that particular time (although 70% say they intend to have children in the future). The majority of women undergoing an abortion give one or more of the following reasons:
    * a baby would interfere with work, school, or other responsibilities (75%)
    * cannot afford to have a child (66%)
    * do not want to be a single parent or have problems in the relationship with their husband or partner (50%)
    * Only 1% of women aborting say they have been advised that their unborn baby has a defect, and only I% say they became pregnant by rape or incest. (Facts in Brief, The Alan Guttmacher Institute, September 1995.)

  74. * Almost half of the women undergoing an abortion – – 46% – – have already had at least one previous abortion,’ a percentage which has tripled since 1974. In 1983, 39% of abortion patients reported having 1, 2, 3, or more abortions; in 1974 the percentage was 15. (Facts in Brief, Alan Guttmacher Institute, September 1995.)
    * Now, at least 15% of the women have had 2 or more abortions. The Alan Guttmacher Institute has not published a breakdown on repeat abortions recently, but in 1987 26.9% of abortion patients reported I previous abortion, 10.7 had 2, and 5.3 reported 3 or more earlier abortions. (“Characteristics of U.S. Women Having Abortions, 1982-1983,” Family Planning Perspectives, January/February 1987, p. 3.)

  75. * In 1984, then-Surgeon General C. Everett Koop estimated that about 4,000 “third trimester” (after 26 weeks) abortions occur each year in the United States, and that “less than five percent of that number have induced abortion because of a known defect in the fetus.”
    * Dr. Martin Haskell, who specializes in partial-birth abortions which are done on late-term babies, reported that he had performed over 1,000 of these abortions himself. The late Dr. James McMahon admitted performing over 2,000.
    * An employee of Kansas abortionist George Tiller wrote in 1991, “I saw the medical records of every abortion patient for a period of over six months. At least (conservatively) an average of ten (24-30-week gestation) late-term abortions were done each week” in that facility alone – – which would be over 500 a year.

  76. “Don’t turn your back on this one PIP – you have no idea how society will react.”
    I agree–Remember, I agree with you!! But I do think that it will take lots and lots of time before we ever develop a viable test. We haven’t even looked at embryotic factors–which help determine how genetic factors are expressed.Although I am pro-life, for obvious reasons I don’t support such a thing to be a reason for abortion–but I think we have a lot of time to pass legislation before hand, if we do find a genetic link.

  77. Lauren, you wrote: “Your only argument is to prove that A)Rights are weighted and B) In this weighted system the right to bodily domain superceeds the right to life. ”
    Your point B is obviously true, otherwise we would take lifesaving blood by force from unwilling donors.

  78. Not to mention transplantable organs. Did you know it’s safer to donate a kidney for transplant than it is to undergo childbirth? (A typical person has six times more nephron tissue than he needs, and the remaining kidney will increase in size and function over time).

  79. “I think that is my biggest problem with the Pro-Choice movement. There is no uniformity. Everything is just so wishy washy and no one will make a decision.”
    I don’t think that’s fair, Valerie.
    I think the Pro-Life movement doesn’t have all that much uniformity either.

  80. Stephanie,
    Ask a pro choicer when life begins and you’ll get as many answers as people you ask.
    Ask a pro lifer the same question, and you’ll get one answer…at conception.
    Ask a pro-choicer when it’s okay to have an abortion and you’ll get as many answers as people you ask.
    Ask a pro-lifer and you’ll get one, or two. Never, or when the life of the mother is in immediate danger.

  81. That was a beautiful post Amanda…
    It reminds me of the saying:
    Men use “love” to get sex.
    Women use “sex” to get love.
    and I love the line about most teens in 1957 being married…

  82. SoMG, I can just as easily argue that point B is false by saying that one conjoined twin can’t kill the other off simply because they share a kidney. Unless the situation is such that either one will die, or both, the right to life wins out over the right to bodily domain.

  83. “I think that is my biggest problem with the Pro-Choice movement. There is no uniformity. Everything is just so wishy washy and no one will make a decision.”
    That’s called Freedom. Everyone can make their own decisions.

  84. Hal,
    The following comment overlooks some important features of the human condition:
    “That’s called Freedom. Everyone can make their own decisions.”
    Posted by: Hal at September 8, 2007 11:16 AM
    Just due to the nature of the human condition, each person at times is unable to make his or her own decision.
    How then should society deal with those who cannot decide?
    How shall we balance the desires of those who can decide when they conflict with those who cannot?
    Our country was founded on the liberal proposition that it is “self evident that all men are created equal”. . . . “with inalienable rights among them life,”
    We can take the liberal interpretation of all to mean all, even the defenseless, dependent, and incapacitated.
    Or we can say that we just mean those who can exercise and defend their rights.
    I can

  85. Hippie, I have no objection to giving rights to the “defenseless, dependent, and incapacitated” people who have been born.

  86. “To viability, leave it to the woman.”
    MK: That’s your valuation. If it was everyones then we wouldn’t have had to pass the “Born Alive” act, or ban partial birth abortion…Apparently many people believe that past viability is okay. Including people on this board.
    I don’t think it is any substantial part of the pro-choice “platform” is there is one, for third-trimester abortions to be on a truly “elective” basis. By far, the vast majority of the pro-choicers I know aren’t really worried about restrictions after viability / in the third trimester. If the argument ended now, with elective abortion okay to viability, I don’t think you’d see many pro-choicers bumming, at all.
    Banning D & X abortions didn’t affect anything – the same pregnancies can be ended for the same reasons at the same time in gestation.
    I don’t think people on this board are for elective abortions after viability – I may have missed something but I don’t remember seeing anything such.
    …..
    but abortion in the third trimester is very rare to start with, and those are usually for atypical reasons, not because the woman just doesn’t want to be pregnant.
    I may be rarer, but 4,000 a year is not rare. And they ARE done because the woman just doesn’t want to be pregnant…it’s too late tonight but if you want me to tomorrow, I’ll give you plenty of examples. Plenty!
    Well, ante up, MK – because the JAMA says it’s 500 – 600 third trimester abortions per year (why the difference in our figures?), and these are typically for danger to the woman or severe fetal deficiency. I’m interested in what proof you have of third-trimester abortions on an “elective” basis.
    Doug

  87. Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there is no exact data for the number of abortions performed after viability. [14] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[15]
    MK – yeah, and the frequency of abortions is going down fast, week-by-week, there.
    A thousand or a little more after 24 weeks fits well with the 500-600 number for the third trimester.
    Doug

  88. MK: In 1984, then-Surgeon General C. Everett Koop estimated that about 4,000 “third trimester” (after 26 weeks) abortions occur each year in the United States, and that “less than five percent of that number have induced abortion because of a known defect in the fetus.”
    Koop was wrong about many things, and his estimate isn’t confirmed, at all. Unless things really were different in 1984. Nowadays, it’s 500-600 in the third trimester.
    …..
    * Dr. Martin Haskell, who specializes in partial-birth abortions which are done on late-term babies, reported that he had performed over 1,000 of these abortions himself. The late Dr. James McMahon admitted performing over 2,000.
    Meaningless – what is “late-term”? Could be 20 weeks, 21 weeks, etc.
    …..
    * An employee of Kansas abortionist George Tiller wrote in 1991, “I saw the medical records of every abortion patient for a period of over six months. At least (conservatively) an average of ten (24-30-week gestation) late-term abortions were done each week” in that facility alone – – which would be over 500 a year.
    Hearsay, for starters. Also, the 24th and 25th week, which have a higher incidence than later weeks, are not in the third trimester.
    …..
    Doug, You’ve got to get out more…
    Been through this many times before, MK. So much obfuscation and inaccuracy has to be gotten through before we really get to the thrid trimester, all the vague “late-term” and “post-viability” stuff, etc.
    However, I do have to go back to the jobsite tonight to help the other guy do some stuff….sigh. Dagnabbit.
    Doug

  89. Hippie: The founders of our nation said yes, all equal.
    Nietzsche said no, only the fit.
    Only some are able to choose. However, all deserve rights even those who cannot choose.
    Hippie, some great Nietzsche quotes:
    “Thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!”
    “when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”
    I love this stuff.
    Doug

  90. This is a ‘strange’ interpretation of the Constitution that I would like explained (by Hal, Doug or SoMG): the constitution while making no direct reference to unborn humans or their status … this is interpreted by pro-aborts as an ‘option to kill”. How so?
    Humans also have a powerful urge to protect … their, property, their country, their way-of-life, etc. And Americans are also very much implicated here. How come this ‘right to kill’ dominates a powerful sense to protect.
    The picture of the vulture waiting for the starving child to die (posted here by Laura), reminds me that protecting vulnerable humans is a human trait. Discarding vulnerable humans, places us with the species – vultures.
    How can you think that abortion services render little besides lining an abortionist pocket with money? Does SoMG, PP need protecting? [It seems we ‘protect’ vultures, non?

  91. John: This is a ‘strange’ interpretation of the Constitution that I would like explained (by Hal, Doug or SoMG): the constitution while making no direct reference to unborn humans or their status … this is interpreted by pro-aborts as an ‘option to kill”. How so?
    John, the unborn aren’t mentioned in the Constitution, and there’s no precedent for treating them as if they’re protected under it. I would say that the woman’s liberty and “right to happiness” argues for letting her keep the freedom she now has in the matter.
    When the Constitution was written, as well as before that and after it, abortion was legal to a point in gestation. And yes, in an abortion the embryo or fetus is killed.
    ……
    Humans also have a powerful urge to protect … their, property, their country, their way-of-life, etc. And Americans are also very much implicated here. How come this ‘right to kill’ dominates a powerful sense to protect.
    You know that there are big disagreements about this, but to a large extent it’s arguing protecting the woman and what she wants versus protecting the unborn life.
    …….
    The picture of the vulture waiting for the starving child to die (posted here by Laura), reminds me that protecting vulnerable humans is a human trait. Discarding vulnerable humans, places us with the species – vultures.
    And all other species as well. Not every life will be preserved (to say the least). It’s the way of the world. We humans have more consciousness about such issues, but the bottom line is still wanted or unwanted.
    …….
    How can you think that abortion services render little besides lining an abortionist pocket with money? Does SoMG, PP need protecting? [It seems we ‘protect’ vultures, non?
    It’s a medical procedure that is wanted, sometimes. Few doctors will work for no money, regardless of what they’re doing.
    Doug

  92. This is the Amanda that originally wrote the letter. (No, I do not know any of you.) I just wanted to thank you for your kindness and support. It means a lot to me. As for the comments about a willful child having sex with or without my parents’ blessing… My parents are/were not good parents. They were neglectful and abusive and I was homeless a good portion of my teen years as well as while I was pregnant with my now 4-year old. I chose to give him life and for that I was thrown out of my boyfriend’s home, and then my mother’s after going to her home because both parties insisted I have an abortion. At that point I was 20 years old so I had my own feelings about life and a right to exist and I didn’t want to take that away from this child. But at 14 I only really had the ethical training my parents had given me and I was afraid and I hadn’t been taught anything about the value of human life. I know I had my own mind, but I believe we are largely products of our environment, particularly when we’re children. I am less likely to give that excuse to adults, however, because we then have the wherewithal and experience and education to make good decisions. Again, I did make some bad decisions. it’s taken me some time to realize the person I want to be and separate myself from my past. I apologize again for what I have done. I know it’s not much but all I can do is offer love for the people I’ve done wrong and be sure to be the best parent I can to the children I am fortunate to have now.
    Thank you all, again, for the encouragement and compassion. I have the same for you and wish you all the best in your personal lives, as well. Give your own children a big hug for all those that never were.
    XOXO
    Amanda

  93. Penance II

    Amanda, who wrote the Penance email I posted September 7, wrote a response to all your comments that I don’t think anyone saw because it slipped off the main page by the time she did. Here ’tis: September 10 10:54a…

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