A Hodari save born this week
On July 18, 2007, a mother named Taffiney entered late-term abortionist Alberto Hodari’s Flint, MI, pole barn abortion mill (pictured right, with 1 of Hodari’s classic cars on display; click to enlarge) to abort her 4th baby, about 6 weeks old. She told me last night, “It’s a day I’ll never forget.”
Taffiney and her husband were having a hard time making ends meet with 3 children and didn’t think they could afford another. Neither had been involved in abortion before but thought there was no other way out of their bind.
On A-Day they began washing clothes at a nearby laundromat, and then Taffiney went ahead of her husband to Hodari’s mill to start the paperwork….
On his way into the mill to join Taffiney after finishing the laundry, hubbie was greeted by pro-life sidewalk counselors including stalwart Karen Mercino.
“He called me inside the clinic on Miss Judy’s cell phone,” Taffiney told me. “We were both crying; we didn’t want to do it. He said, ‘I’ve been out here talking to these ladies, and they’ve been making sense to me. If God didn’t want us to have kids you wouldn’t have gotten pregnant.'”
Taffiney left the mill. “Everyone was crying,” she said. “I’m so glad they were out there that day. I honestly think – I know – we would have done it.”
Taffiney continued, “I swear to this day Miss Judy, Miss Karen, and Miss Daphne have been lifesavers. I hate to say it took abortion for us to meet them, but I’m glad we did.”
I asked Taffiney what she remembered of Hodari’s mill. “There was a lot of grief, not just mine, but you could see grief on other people’s faces. The nurses were not compassionate.”
Pro-lifers helped Taffiney’s family through her pregnancy, giving them money and dinner at Thanksgiving, purchasing Christmas toys for their other 3 children, “checking on me more than my family does,” said Taffiney.
On March 8 Flint Co. Right to Life, lead by president Judy Climer, sponsored a baby shower for Taffiney, also giving gifts to her other 3 children as well as grocery cards, gift cards, and baskets of groceries. So much was given, a car and a van were filled.
Then on March 18, little Aubrey Marie entered the world at 7#, 14 oz., and 20″ long.
Taffiney concluded, “Now that I look at her I think abortion would have been the worst mistake I ever made.”
I speak at several pregnancy care banquets each year. Every one has 1-3 client testimonies, just variations of Taffiney’s.
[Photos courtesy of Judy Paga]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Oh, Aubrey. Sweet little angel baby.
Odd, a friend of mine wanted to talk to me about her abortion the other day. She had the procedure, her first abortion, several months ago, and this was the first time she had ever actually told me what happened. She had opted for Versed, so she would sleep through the procedure. She explained, “I was terrified.” “I waited with the other girls, and some of them were back for their second and third abortions.” She continued, “After I woke up, I was crying, and the nurse was mean to me.” “In what way?” I asked. She said that the nurse never took a moment to comfort her, handed her a sanitary pad, and gruffly said “Get up!” With that she was escorted to the recovery room. Then she saw the abortionist while she was still sobbing. She said he never said a word. Just kept walking. She even gave him the benefit of the doubt by saying “I think he wanted to give me my privacy.”
awww
I was flabbergasted. I know I’ve read a lot of horror stories about abortionists and abortion clinic workers, but I never knew that “Kathy” had just been subjected to the very same treatment. Anyway, I’m so glad this woman[[above post]] had her baby. Proof that side walk counselors do make a difference. BTW, my friend in my above post is pregnant again, and she is happy about that!
Little Aubrey is beautiful;]
Heather,
I am so glad your friend is starting to talk about it!! I am also thankful that you are there to listen. She needs you.
That describes the way I was treated as well. They were NOT kind, compassionate, caring people. How can they be? They were mean and rough and ignored all of those crying girls in their recliners. I am sure those that work in mills have to be hardened to the horror of what they are participating in. It is a terrifying place. It was an awful experience!
How can those that claim to be prochoice but have never had an abortion know how horrifying it is?? They simply want to dismiss the experience as a “simple medical procedure.”
Carla, I was just wondering how abortion clinic workers get away with this? It’s like treating a woman worse than a dog. Other women claim that their procedures were “uneventful.” Some even told me about the abortion staff members being friendly. I just couldn’t imagine.
What I mean is. Believe me. An abortion is terrifying. The procedure itself is painful. There is no compassion for the pain you experience. I was shuttled around with others like a bunch of cattle. The cries and screams of women going through it is horrifying. The doctors do the deed, that is all. The nurses want you out as fast as possible.
It is not simple. It’s not.
It’s one thing to read about it on web sites, but it’s quite another to hear it from the horses mouth.
Heather,
It adds to the shame of what you have done. If it were ok wouldn’t everyone be cheerful? Happy? Like a visit to your regular doctor? A kind warm face and a listening ear? Why is that NOT the norm in a mill?!
Carla, thank you for sharing. Were you awake for your procedure? I would also like to ask PJ mama about her experience.
I was awake.
Carla, I got ya;] I was just wondering why nobody would report that. I can tell that “Kathy” just wants to put it behind her. I am very glad she is talking to me.
I had an issue with an ER nurse once. She was very verbally abusive to me. I reported her as soon as I got home.
Not sure. Seems pointless. When there are abortion doctors killing and molesting women, throwing aborted babies and confidential papers into a dumpster and hardly a stink being raised…
I mean really will Tiller EVER be convicted of ANYTHING??!!
Carla, I understand. Maybe they are just so used to it.
Carla, hahahaha. Did you see where he was somewhat incoherent in court??
heather – if your friend is willing, it might be a good time for her to talk with CareNet or another PRC. They may be able to help with the current pregnancy, and when she gets far enough along they may be able to provide a limited obstetrical ultrasound if available.
I don’t want to assume your friend is grieving, but if her experiences weren’t compassionate then having others available to talk confidentially with might be beneficial.
I couldn’t imagine any other procedure where a nurse would yell “get up” while I was still groggy from the anesthesia.
Chris, thank you so much!! Yes. She is indeed grieving.
Wichita, KS
I dug er up.
I think I blocked out a lot of what happened until I started to regret what I had done. They I really had to go back and look at how I was treated.
Denial is a powerful thing.
Carla, PJ mama and I were talking about that! Denial sure is. PJ called it “self protection.” I’m sooooo glad you’re both here. We’ll learn a ot from you 2:]
*oops* that should read a lot. Above post.
Thanks for the Tiller update!! I get impatient with “the system” that seems to bend over backwards to protect the abortionists.
Right. I still say that this nut is gonna crack soon. And, you’re welcome.
You people can never be satisfied.
If the abortion clinic atmosphere was bad, shame on the doctors and nurses for not comforting the patients or whatever.
If the abortion clinic atmosphere was cheerful, shame on those horrible, devilish, stupid, lower-than-a-dog women for thinking abortion is ok (which it is).
Stephanie, I’ve heard it both ways. Either way, it’s bad.
Also, I’m assuming that the abortionist and his staff are all pro choice. So, why would they be mean?
I’ll be satisfied when abortion becomes illegal.
You’re right Stephanie. Bad “mills” are bad. Modern nice “clinics” are really bad.
Hal, I’m talking about the way the abortion staff treats women. You will never have to worry about an abortion, cuz you’ll never have one.
No one has to worry about an abortion. Don’t want one, don’t have one. If you do want one, pick a provider who will treat you right. That’s the free market.
Heather,
Aren’t you glad you didn’t write your friend off?
So Hal I should have “shopped around” eh??
How were your wife’s two abortions?
It’s not about “wanting” an abortion. I did not “want” one. I did not know what else to do.
Don’t want one, don’t have one. Simple as that, right?! Another bumper sticker slogan.
No one has to worry about an abortion. Don’t want one, don’t have one. If you do want one, pick a provider who will treat you right. That’s the free market.
Does the aborted child get a voice in the choice of provider?
“So Hal I should have “shopped around” eh??
How were your wife’s two abortions?”
Yes, you should have shopped around. You shop around for a dentist don’t you. My wife’s abortions were fine. We were in our regular ob/gyn’s office, he was kind and competent.
Carla, I’m sorry you did not know what else to do. Maybe there weren’t any good options. Regretting your decision, however, is not a good reason to take the right to make that decision away from other women.
“Does the aborted child get a voice in the choice of provider?”
No. No voice at all.
A dentist doesn’t kill babies.
I appreciate that you say you are sorry that I didn’t know what else to do. There were other options for me though weren’t there Hal?? I could have carried my child to term and kept her. I could have carried my child to term and put her up for adoption. Unfortunately I was ALONE. I acted in haste, an irrational decision made in a time of crisis. No family, no friends, no job, no money.
I would love to hear your wife’s point of view.
“Does the aborted child get a voice in the choice of provider?”
No. No voice at all.
I guess that narcissism is its own reward.
“I guess that narcissism is its own reward.”
I wish!
My boyfriend did not want a baby. I cried and pleaded with him, to no avail. It just simply would not have been acceptable to have a baby out of wedlock, so what choice did I have but to abort? So I thought…
I made the appointment, and my boyfriend drove me to the mill. I was so afraid that there would be protesters there, but there weren’t. Now, I look back and wish that there had been. Things could have been different.
I went inside. No sonogram. No pelvic exam. No pregnancy test. They not only took my word for it that I was pregnant, they didn’t even bother to find out how far along I was. My not having any experience with pregnancy, childbirth, or medicine, it was not something that I was aware that I should be asking for. I figured they knew what they were doing, so I didn’t ask any questions…except for one.
I was signing papers and while I was crying, I asked the office manager behind the desk “I just have a question…how big is it now?” I remember practically whispering the words. She said with a wave of her hand, “it’s just a blob of cells, like a blood clot…now I need the money, please.” I gave it to her.
They gave me two valium. About a half hour later, I got on the table and the abortionist, who I’d never seen before and never would see again entered the room. He injected my cervix with some anesthetic, and then began the suction abortion. It was very painful, felt like my insides were being sucked out, and seemed to last forever. I sobbed the whole time and I remember saying “my baby, my baby”. The woman in the room with us said sternly “ssshhhh, it’s not a baby”, but I continued to cry.
Then, when it was over, the abortionist said something that will haunt me to this day. “Well, it looks like you were a little further along than 12 weeks, so it took a bit longer than normal.” At the time, it didn’t register, but today looking back I am sickened by his callousness. First of all, why would they allow me to diagnose my own pregnancy and gestation? Secondly, why tell me that information if he didn’t have to, now that the abortion was over and done with? He seemed to take some kind of glee in telling me something that he knew would probably be painful to me down the road. At the time, I simply was not knowledgeable about fetal development, so this revelation kind of went in one ear and out the other…until 17 years later, that is, when I learned the facts. Although he didn’t tell me the gestational age of my baby at the time of the abortion, I would imagine that I could not have been off by more than 2 weeks in my calculation from the date of my last period, so I would estimate that my baby was 14 weeks old when I had him or her aborted.
This is something that I have never told anyone.
I’ve read many stories of abortionists who grow to hate the mothers that they “treat”. I think that the other workers there do, too. They probably get tired of dealing with emotional women all day and they develop a callousness that is probably part of a natural human reaction to protect themselves. Natural selection dictates that those who allow themselves to become emotionally invested in the mothers there eventually become burned out and ultimately quit. So, the only ones left are the “hard ones”.
BTW, it was very hard for me to decide to click “Post” on that last one…
I am sorry PJ. Sorry that you went through that and were treated the way you were. Sorry that your boyfriend abandoned you.
Are stories are similar in so many ways. No denying that the majority of women are treated so rudely by the “hard ones.”
PJ,
You are helping others by posting. I know you are. Thank you!!
PajamaMama, thanks for sharing your story. You might be right about how the workers at a “mill” would end up being the “hard ones.” It seems to me that better staff and facilities are certainly needed. If a woman comes in, like you, with mixed feelings about what they are wrestling with, they should have someone to talk to and options if they want them. Women who have thought it all through and are comfortable with their decisions would probably like better treatment too.
This is a really nice story, and if people did things like that for EVERY woman who is in a situation like that, we’d be having a very different dialouge about abortion in this country I think. Its always heartwarming to hear stories like this, or watch Extreme Makeover Home Edition, or Oprah’s big gives, etc etc – but then its important to remind myself for every person that was lucky enough to get the help they needed, there are hundreds more who slip through the cracks and wonder why no one is helping THEM.
And sadly, for every story like this, there is a story from the other side. Of women being called whores and sluts, of pro lifers telling them they should have just “kept their legs closed”, of women being told they don’t deserve handouts because welfare is only for lazy slobs. I have heard these things myself, and heard other girls tell me their stories about it. In fact, I recieved an email once from a person who told me she hoped I got raped, because that was the only way to punish me for being pro choice, before I died and burned in Hell.
Someday, I will get the courage to stand outside an abortion mill and offer facts, encouragement, and material assistance for mothers considering abortion. The day that I am able to save even ONE baby from abortion will be the day that my horrible abortion experience has come full circle.
Please pray for God to give me the courage to stand out there and tell my story in person…
Amanda,
PJ’s story is a “really nice story”? I’m confused.
PJ,
You may have saved a baby already. You never know.:)
Yes, we shall both stand outside the mills and encourage others to not abort their babies. We shall speak the truth in love.
I would also love to be one of those “undercover” people. I hear you don’t have to be pregnant to get an abortion anymore.
Thank you Carla. Thank you. I hope to find at least one other post-abortive mother in my area so we can stand out there arm in arm to support each other. I think I’ll ask the ladies at the local CPC that I donate to if they know anyone who is interested in sidewalk counseling with a partner.
Oh, and I think Amanda meant that the original post was a nice story, not mine. She may have started typing her comment before mine was posted.
PJ mom, I think you’re on your way:]
Amanda, the abortion staff treated my friend like cr*p. These people ARE all pro choice.
yes, Carla. I would love to do undercover stuff, too, although I may be too emotionally involved to keep my cool in such a situation.
Although, once when I was thinking a lot about how my question about fetal development was brushed off, I decided to do an experiment. I kept thinking that maybe because my abortion was such a long time ago, that “nowadays” maybe they tell the truth to a mother who asks. So, I decided to call up Planned Parenthood and ask a nurse again just to see what she said. Here’s how it went;
PJMama: “Hi, I’m 10 weeks pregnant and thinking about having an abortion, but I’d like to know how big the fetus is now. Can you tell me?”
PP Nurse: “Uh, you’d have to look that up for yourself on the internet. We don’t have that information.”
PJMama: “But I don’t have the internet at my home and I wouldn’t be comfortable looking up that information at work. Can’t you just tell me?”
PP Nurse: “No. I suggest you go to the library if you don’t have the internet.”
PJMama: “You’re seriously telling me that you, a nurse, don’t KNOW how big a 10 week old fetus is, or are you telling me that you just WON’T tell me?”
PP Nurse: “You’re just gonna have to look it up yourself.”
click
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I cried for an hour after that call.
rosie, this friend was worth keeping. She had immediate regrets, and now she needs someone to talk to. I kind of think that the current pregnancy is the “replacement baby.” It occurred only 4 or 5 months after her abortion. I’m told that some people cycle like this for some reason. Getting pregnant soon after an abortion is not uncommon at all.
PJ mama, My friend didn’t get any counseling. I guess the abortionist just asked her “Are you sure this is what you want to do?” I KNOW she ABSOLUTLY regrets it. She acted out of haste.
Amanda,
PJ’s story is a “really nice story”? I’m confused.
———- me too.
Heather – Did you read anything I wrote past the first sentence, about how nice it is when people donate to people in need? I was (obviously) responding to the story in Jills post, not PJ’s.
Oh, sorry.
PJ Mama, How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doc to murder your unborn baby?
Death? Life in prison? How?
Sorry from me too, Amanda.
Ooh, Pj. Interesting undercover work you did already!!
There was a clinic that opened up in our town. It was called Womens Healthcare Clinic or something. Right next to a pizza place. I called
Me-“I need an abortion.”
Lady-“What?!”
Me-“I said I need an abortion and I don’t know what to do.”
Lady-“We don’t do those here.” click
Oooooooh, good going girls! You’re doing homework! This is good stuff!
Again with that question SOMG?! You asked me that same question months ago!!
Let’s beat a dead horse, shall we?!
Posted by: SoMG at March 21, 2008 2:43 PM
PJ Mama, How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doc to murder your unborn baby?
Death? Life in prison? How?
++++++++
I already expounded on this subject in another post, so I’ll just cut and paste.
The whole “aborting mothers should be put to death” thing doesn’t really bother me much, for several reasons, the MAJOR one being that I, like Carla and other repentent abortive mothers, have the love and forgiveness of our sin from Jesus Christ – can’t stress that enough. And through that love and forgiveness, even a sentence of death from mankind would not erase the comfort we feel. We would die knowing that we have been saved.
Secondly, at the time of our transgression, our sin was “legal”, so there would be no chance that we would be subjected to such a punishment retroactively. Even Zeke acknowledged that would be unjust.
Thirdly, once our society accepts and embraces the humanity of the unborn, and the reality of abortion is widely known and condemned by our legal sysem, it is only then that a proper penalty for aborting mothers, abortionists, and their accessories could be formulated. It seems to me that abortion could be considered either equal to or possibly a minutely lesser crime than the crime of say, infanticide at birth, which happens often these days. I’m not sure what the criminal penalties for that are, but I would imagine that they are considered more akin to manslaughter than to murder. As such, I imagine that any criminal penalty would not include execution, anyway, only prison time to the tune of 10 years or so.
In conclusion, actions are only deserving of worldly criminal penalties when a society collectively agrees that they are crimes and then widely proclaims them as such.
Those crimes are separate from what God says are sins, which have their own divine penalties. An example that we have is adultery. Not against the law, but a sin against God. If we as a society collectively decided that adultery was also ILLEGAL, then it would be our duty and our right to impose a criminal penalty upon it.
So, until abortion is outlawed, discussions about “public and painful executions” of aborting mothers are moot (Zeke) and do nothing to help the pro-life cause. Naturally, IF and WHEN society decides that abortion is illegal, only then can a fitting and proper criminal penalty be discussed.
Don’t let Somg throw you. He’s just a troll with no facts whatsoever.
AND…if abortion had been illegal at the time of my pregnancy, I would not have committed abortion, of that I am certain. As I’ve said before, never been much of a scofflaw.
well put!
Heather,
I like hanging out with you. You are too sweet!
Thank you. This sucker makes a quick exit whenever he sees me:]
PJ Mama (and Carla) So….every abortion should be illegal, except yours. Is that your idea?
Somg, should every abortionist dispose of his medical records in dumpsters, or just Dr. Hodari?
Editorial: 4th Annual Abortionist of the Year Award (2008)
The National Day of Appreciation for Abortion Providers is just around the corner
Somg, have you seen this?
Yes, I agree that Lawrence Reich is the worst of the abortion docs on Jill’s list.
It’s worth noting that ultra-pro-choice Senator Barbara Boxer (D, Ca) publically campaigned for Reich to be stripped of his licence.
well, well, well…I can’t believe this! You have finally agreed!
Carla, you wrote: “will Tiller EVER be convicted of ANYTHING??!!”
Not when the accusers are right-to-lifers who everyone knows would try to shut him down even if he were perfect.
The practice of bringing nuisance suits and nuisance cases such as Kline’s against Dr. Tiller has destroyed his accusers’ credibility in the eyes of many Kansans.
Even if Dr. Tiller committed a real crime, no one would believe his accusers.
Once again, it’s the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
He’s not perfect? Could we be making some progress?
Yes, I agree that Lawrence Reich is the worst of the abortion docs on Jill’s list.
It’s worth noting that ultra-pro-choice Senator Barbara Boxer (D, Ca) publically campaigned for Reich to be stripped of his licence.
Posted by: SoMG at March 21, 2008 3:48 PM*************** Jill, make a note of this. LOL!
SOMG,
So Tiller has never done anything illegal?
And once again I point out that the case against Dr. Turkish is obvious right-to-life bullshit. He does not belong on a list of bad abortion docs.
Carla, Dr. Tiller is innocent until proven guilty.
And the crimes he’s accused of are insignificant.
How about Pendergraft?
It’s also not clear that Dr. Osathanondh belongs on the list of bad abortion docs. A rare reaction to anaesthesia can happen to anyone who uses anaesthesia, and is not necessarily his fault. Unless there’s more to the story than I have seen, he shouldn’t have let it get to him.
How about Hodari?
Somg, how can you say that? He kills children up until the day before birth. He takes armfuls of babies, and he tosses them into the oven. Doesn’t that bother you? Doesn’t that disturb you emotionally?
Heather, I don’t know enough about Dr. Prendergraft’s case to make a judgement. (Neither do you.)
Innocent until proven guilty. OK.
Has Tiller done anything that is against the law?
How about Kabacy and the kiddie porn?
Heather, you wrote: “He kills children up until the day before birth. He takes armfuls of babies, and he tosses them into the oven. Doesn’t that bother you? Doesn’t that disturb you emotionally?”
Who? We have several conversations going on about several different abortion docs. Clarify pls.
And no, tossing abortus-pathology specimens into the oven doesn’t bother me. They’re already dead.
SOMG, shouldn’t he suffer the same punishment as any other guy looking at kiddie porn?
George Tiller.
Yes, I support laws against kiddie porn, and I support enforcing these laws evenly against abortion docs, but it’s no reason the doc shouldn’t be allowed to practice medicine after (s)he has paid his/her debt to society.
I mean, a record of viewing kiddie porn does not reflect on the doc’s competence to do abortions (or other aspects of medicine) safely and effectively.
I’d rather my patient have a competent surgeon who has previously gotten in trouble for viewing kiddie porn than an incompetent or dangerous surgeon with a clean criminal record.
Carla, the crimes Dr. Tiller is accused of are insignficant violations of BS laws written by right-to-lifers, whose goal is not to make abortion safe but to put obstacles in the way of abortion docs. If he gets found guilty of violating such laws, he should (and likely will) receive a minimal punishment such as a small fine.
I would support a law saying no law affecting abortion may be written or passed by right-to-life legislators. Right-to-life legislators should be deemed ideologically incapable of making rational laws.
But what if he’s going to perform an abortion on an 11 year old?
Oops–the end of that previous post should read “…incapable of making rational ABORTION laws.”
You know that Kabacy is turned on by kids… [yuk!] so should he really be around kids? Especially when it comes to performing a procedure on their private parts?
No, I’m not a supporter of Kabacy. He should be punished according to the law.
Somg, good for you!
Why do you support Tiller? What is it about this guy that you like so much?
Jack Nicholson quote of the day: “I only use viagra when I’m with two women at a time.”
I think he may need it for just one.
Heather, you wrote: “Why do you support Tiller? What is it about this guy that you like so much?”
Two reasons:
1. He’s good at his job. If you’re a doctor and you have a patient who needs an abortion late in pregnancy, for whatever reason convinces you and her, you can count on Dr. Tiller to get it done safely and with minimal stress to the patient’s cervix and vagina.
2. He continues to provide abortion in spite of having been shot, and having his office bombed, by right-to-life terrorists. Gotta admire his guts!
Somg, do you like children at all? You have refused to answer me before, but would you just answer?
Do you have any children? Ever hold a baby before?
Also a third reason: He coped successfully with a serious addiction to pain medication and now serves on an oversight board dealing with the problem of physician-addiction.
I never knew that. Could you please answer me about children.
Yes, I love children, I love working with them, and I have held newborns (not my own) in my hands.
Thank you for the response. I never would have thought so.
I love feeling the body heat that babies and newborns give off.
Have you ever delivered a baby?
Newborns are so soft.
I’ve participated in deliveries (vaginal and surgical), but I have never been responsible for a delivery.
I’ve never found obstetricians pleasant to work with. Too high-stress. God bless and keep them far away from me!
Well, that’s excellent.
You have mentioned that before. What was so bad about them?
Heather, in my experience obstetricians have high-stress personalities (probably because crises can arise so quickly and suddenly) and tend to be dictatorial. Also they tend not to have senses of humor, probably because they have to pay such high malpractice insurance premiumes.
SOMG,
Are you an abortionist?
But I stress that this is just my personal experience. I would not necessarily generalize to all obstetricians.
Carla: That would be telling.
So tell.
But I’ll tell you this much: I have more personal experience with abortion than (almost) all of you on this board, and I have participated in the emergence of non-surgical abortion technology into the mainstream of medicine, so I proudly take a little bit of personal credit for its beneficial effects.
Why didn’t you just become an Obgyn?
Laymans terms please.
How long have you been at it?
“In fact, I recieved an email once from a person who told me she hoped I got raped, because that was the only way to punish me for being pro choice, before I died and burned in Hell.”
Why would you give your email address to such a person?
hahahahaha! Yeah, why?
Heather, how many times do I have to tell you that I don’t like working with OBs?
Okay. Fine. I’m glad to see a little bit of your human side tonight;] Why do you visit Pro life boards?
Heather, I told you before, I enjoy feeling superior to those of you who profess strong feelings about abortion without knowing much about it.
“In fact, I recieved an email once from a person who told me she hoped I got raped, because that was the only way to punish me for being pro choice, before I died and burned in Hell.”
————- Hopefully you tracked that person down and reported him/her for abuse.
Somg, ooooookay.
hmmm, interesting to hear the “he’s innocent until proven guilty” arguement for defending abortionist quacks, I actually just heard this exact same thing regarding Hodari and his dumpster dilemma while debating on another board on Babycenter earlier today.
I went in circles for a bit with a pro-abort who insists that Monica Miller and the other PL’ers in Michigan somehow obtained the remains of aborted fetuses from an outside source and then created fake medical records so that they could “plant” this evidence and FRAME poor innocent Mr. Hodari.
I seriously can not believe anyone with half a brain would honestly believe such a wild conspiracy theory when faced with the truth.
Poor little Hodari. He’s such a victim in all this.
***GAG***
Kristi, you’ve gotta be kidding!
SoMG, why don’t you like working with OB”s?
Somg, it can’t only be Obs that exhibit no personality or sense of humor. You should meet my foot doctor. He has the personality of a napkin, but he’s a nice guy.
Heather, I’m sure your foot doctor is very nice and seems very bland TO YOU.
You cannot judge a doctor’s personality by how (s)he behaves with patients. Doctors learn to change or suppress their personalities as they go through their socialization into the hierarchy. The hierarchy rewards, and selects for, the ability to appear bland. When you’re with a patient, it’s not about you it’s about the patient. You’re on the job.
If you are a med student learning to interact with patients, your most desired outcome is that the patients not remember your name or who you are. This is a better outcome than having a patient like you or notice how nice you are. God forbid a patient should mention your name favorably to your supervisor–you’ll get labelled among the residents as someone who hogs the action, talks too much, and might say the wrong thing. Next thing you know no one wants to let you near their patients.
How does your foot doctor treat his staff? His family? His colleagues? Of course you have little or no opportunity to observe, but you might be surprised if you imagine he’s really the kind of person he seems to be to his patiets.
Well, he trains students. He had one present when he performed my foot surgery.
Patricia, because in my personal experience OBs are overstressed, secretive, and nasty (to everyone except the patients).
No, Heather, I’m totally serious!!! This woman actually argued with me repeatedly insisting that all the evidence was planted and only proved that the PL’ers were “nut jobs”.
I mean, can’t you just call someone up and get the bodies of 25+ aborted babies if you need them for a media event?
Astounding ignorance!!!
SoMG, I guess I’ve missed it but trying to read between the lines …. if you don’t mind sharing, what type of medicine are you in?
Heather, who do you suppose one calls to order up a shipment of two dozen aborted fetus bodies? Do they carry that on amazon?
NO, NO, I’ve got it, eBay!! You can get ANYTHING on eBay!!!!
Somg, secrative about what?
Kristi, some people are so blind! I did find the site in question. I’ve got to log myself in.
hmm, no luck on eBay, I just checked. *sigh* What’s a nut-job pro-lifer to do????
***stomps feet like a 5-yr old****
kristi, I hope you let her have it.
Somg, you must admit, they chose that profession. Why do you think they do if it’s so God awful?
Somg, it sounds like someone gave you a hard time during your rotation.[?????]
“Patricia, because in my personal experience OBs are overstressed, secretive, and nasty (to everyone except the patients).”
This is strange. I don’t believe you SoMG. First of all your 6:56pm post is very cynical. I know both my dentist and my family doctor professionally and personally. They are wonderful people and not different when they see their patients (I have friends who are also patients of both, so I know how they respond to them).
Of course, these people are practicing Catholics who are quite comfortable with who they are and would not treat a patient in any way other than respectful. Their idea of medicine is to treat the patients to the best of their God-given ability and to first of all, do no harm.
What you mention is certainly not the way med schools in Canada train doctors.
I wonder why you feel so ostracized and isolated from your fellow professionals. If you are an abortionist, it would make sense to me why you have this attitude towards ob’s. Otherwise it does not.
kristi, I hope you let her have it.
Posted by: heather at March 21, 2008 7:11 PM
I wish I could have really gone to town on that one, but unfortunately I had to remain pretty tame. The bulletin board where this took place is called “termination alternatives” … women considering abortion come to that board to discuss their options and I help as a lay-counselor talking with the women there. So it wasn’t the appropriate venue to really get into a debate.
http://boards.babycenter.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=bcus5724
click on “sad news story”. My screen name is MamaK
Posted by: SoMG at March 21, 2008 3:33 PM
PJ Mama (and Carla) So….every abortion should be illegal, except yours. Is that your idea?
++++++++
So, SoMG, I’m assuming then that you have heard the phrase “The only moral abortion is MY abortion”? It’s a common method that “pro-choicers” use to point out hypocrisy of the pro-life side. They hold up examples of preachers and other pro-lifers who have had or have sent their daughters in for abortions while maintaining that abortion is wrong “except in their particular and unique situation”.
While I find the behavior of these so-called “pro-lifers” hypocritical, offensive, and quite sad, I also submit to you that the “pro-choice” side bears their own burden of hypocrisy, combined with a hefty dose of elitism and judgment.
You see, it’s very popular today to proclaim “I believe that it is wrong to kill an unborn child, and I would not do it to my child. But, I think it’s okay for other unborn children to be aborted if their mother so chooses, especially if the mother is young or poor or the child is deformed.”
In other words “The only moral abortion is the abortion of YOUR child. Please, do your substandard kid a favor and end his miserable life before he is born.”
It’s important to understand that this “pro-choice” view is much more prevalent than the former “pro-life” view. Understand that there are disengenuous people on both sides and that none of them deserve respect. Consistency is the only truth.
“Life is full of misery, loneliness, and suffering – and it’s all over much too soon.” – Woody Allen (1935 – )
So, SoMG…do you think that my child deserved to die?
PJM,
I just read all the comments, which took a while, but I read your story and it made me cry. I’m so sorry you had to go through that…I was in your situation but I didn’t have an abortion. I can’t imagine where or who I would be right now if I had. I consider myself very lucky to have gone to my church in the beginning. I just went into the office of my church and talked to one of the women there and she helped me and told me about CPC’s and all that. I knew how helpful my church could be because they had helped my family in the past when we were going through a rough time. I feel sad for you that you did not have anywhere to turn at a time when you needed help the most. I feel the same way for all women who have abortions in these circumstances. I have only known one girl who had an abortion at the age of 16 and it was because her mother made her. She is 23 and has a little girl now, but she is still very messed up as a result of having that abortion. My heart goes out to all post-abortive mothers.
Elizabeth: thank you so much for your kind words. Each time I talk to someone like you my heart gets stronger and stronger so that eventually I know that I can do something constructive with my experience.
Keep telling your friend’s story to others, and keep being there for her. She needs you! :0)
If there is any way I’d like to donate some money to this family.
Jill, could you let me know how?
People, how in the world do you expect abortionists to act? If you can kill an innocent baby in the womb you have a seared conscience – a heart of stone, for you are committing one of the most heinous acts a person can commit. Why would you expect any compassion from them?
These people are pathetic murdering worms and these psychos should all be imprisoned. SoMG, you’re one of them.
PJMama, you wrote: “Do you think that my child deserved to die?”
No, your fetus was just unlucky.
funny…that’s what my grandfather said about his excised tumor…”what an unlucky tumor”.
tell me, SoMG, how can a “mass of cells” be unlucky? do you often attribute human qualities to inanimate objects? isn’t that what a fetus is to you…an object to be disposed of at will?
are all of the babies who die at your hand also unlucky? come on…admit it…you’re an abortionist. Repent and join us in the light.
P.S. There is no such thing as luck.
I don’t buy Somg’s story for one minute. He/she is not in the abortion field at all. If he/she was, he’d be more forthcoming with information and answers to the questions directed at him, and would be staunchly defending his practice.
Somg is either a woman who has aborted and can’t face what she’s done, or is a man who forced a woman to do so and is in like frame of mind.
In either case, he/she is a pathetic character who is more to be pitied, than censored.
I’d like to address some of the earlier posts that spoke about having better providers, as well as PJMama’s acknowledgment that she was essentially refused any info on fetal development on the day of her procedure:
If you were in the “business” of abortion, would you really WANT a woman to make an “informed” decision? Be honest here. If you made THAT much money every day from desperate women, you’d have to lie to yourself in order to keep going. These people must have complexes and mental problems beyond what we can imagine. How else could they live with themselves, with what they see and do every day??
See, everyone slaps down the pro-lifers because we have these *gasp* horrid pregnancy centers that DON’T tell women where to get abortions…well, think about it, folks, we have no money to make off of ANY services at a PRC. ZERO. We give women info on fetal development, possible risks from the procedure, as well as describing what is actually done in the typical abortion procedure, along with free pregnancy testing and often free ultrasound.
We have NOTHING to gain monetarily…believe me, I know, because I was the director of a PRC for almost four years. It was a struggle just to raise funds and keep the doors open, and there were times when I paid the rent and didn’t pay myself that month. Because WE, as pro-lifers, are not the ones who stand to gain anything other than the knowledge that perhaps there is one more woman who won’t have to regret her abortion for the rest of her life…one MORE child in this world who is a blessing to her parents…one MORE voice who can stand up and say, “I am alive.” That is what we have to gain.
When I was director of the PRC in the city where I used to live, we had a young woman who came in seeking information. We gave her a free test (which was positive), and showed her information on fetal development, etc…we did everything that we could have done to change her mind. Instead, she chose abortion because she “had a future.” She wanted to go into the military. Okay, fine…whatever…grand plan and all. Anyway, months later, she came in again, and I recognized her…but this time she had brought with her two much younger teen girls. I sat down with her for a moment and she said to me, “Do you remember me?” I responded that I did. She said, “I came here and you gave me information that I needed. I did have an abortion, but I want you to know that I brought these girls here today because you were honest with me and told me everything I should know, and you treated me with respect. So I want you to tell THOSE girls why they should not have sex, because I know you’ll tell them the truth.”
I have never forgotten that. Even though she chose abortion, she knew that we were telling the absolute truth at our Center. And she wanted to make sure her young friends didn’t end up like she did…having to make that horrible choice. :(
That young woman may come to regret her decision one day (and who knows, maybe she does already), but at least she will remember that we never lied to her, never tried to “frighten” her…we just told her what EVERY woman should know before making that choice.
Why do you think the pro-choice folks are the ones fighting AGAINST waiting periods and informed consent laws?? Because they prey upon ignorance and desperation. For money.
Please pray for God to give me the courage to stand out there and tell my story in person…
Posted by: PajamaMama at March 21, 2008 1:55 PM
****
PjM,
I know where you can get training on sidewalk counseling if you live in the Chicago area. Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood has been offering these trainings.
I am sorry that you were subjected to such an evil as abortion. I pray the Holy Spirit give you the strength to serve God by reaching out to help those who would commit azbortion. You will make an awesome sidewalk counselor some day.
Please pray for God to give me the courage to stand out there and tell my story in person…
Posted by: PajamaMama at March 21, 2008 1:55 PM
****
PjM,
I am sorry that you were subjected to such an evil as abortion. I pray the Holy Spirit give you the strength to serve God by reaching out to help those who would commit abortion. You will make an awesome sidewalk counselor some day. I know Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood has been offering sidewalk counselor trainings in the Chicago area every now and again. I was going to see if it is available on video or PDF. I could ley you know what I find out, if your would be interested.
Yes, I love children, I love working with them, and I have held newborns (not my own) in my hands.
Posted by: SoMG at March 21, 2008 4:50 PM
****
SoMG, I’ll bet the babies were screaming there heads off whe they felt you holding them. Did they vomit on you? Don’t blame them if they did. I think I would vomit on you too if I got too close to you. Did the mother know you were a baby killer and still let you hold her baby? Did you tell her that her baby was not innocent and that you could take care of getting rid of the problem?
A beautiful story. I thank those women that saved this woman and her husband from making the worst decision of their lives.
Thank God for the blessing of life!
Mike, I don’t want to dwell on Somg too much, but I’m 99% sure it’s a male. I also do believe that he does something job wise in the abortion industry. Just my thought.
Pj mama, I am also new to the pro life movement. I wanted to get active too. You can always become a member of your local RTL organization. You can go out and protest clinics with others. They will welcome you. Also, there is an annual March for Life in DC. I attend that when I’m able. Based on your past experience, you could save someone from making the same mistake:]
If Somg is in the abortion industry why not just say it then? Not taking pride in your profession?!
Carla, he might be the janitor. Oh, never mind. Abortion mills don’t employ them:] lol.
PJ mom, you might have more luck than someone like I would. You have actually experienced the horrid procedure. We can all be blessings to both post abortive women, as well as women who are considering it.
Thanks everyone. When I hear these stories of babies saved outside abortion mills, it is so uplifting. I just can’t take my eyes off of little Aubrey Marie’s sweet face in that picture. These tireless volunteers who stay out there day after day to minister to these mothers and fathers are a true blessing from God. And the mothers and fathers who care enough to stop and listen to the inconvenient truth are true heroes.
BTW, I live in Albany, NY. Praise God for removing the super-pro-abort criminal gov Spitzer.
Goodbye, Spitter!
Heather, in some cases the staff blame the women for being “stupid” and “irresponsible” enough to get pregnant when they didn’t want to be, “forcing” them (the staff) to undertake the distasteful task of disposing of their babies. The workers keep themselves going by convincing themselves that they’re helping. But when the woman doesn’t seem very helped, when she’s crying and miserable, it bursts the Angels of Mercy bubble. They want to get her the hell out of their sight ASAP.
Read Rachel McNair’s excellent Achieving Peace in the Abortion War online.
Christina, thanks for the link:]
Christina,
None of us gals were smiling and thanking them for their “help.” Nobody made much eye contact at all.
Good point.
I would also venture to say that a lot of the pro choice nurses have aborted themselves at some point. I’d think that it would take a certain type to work in a mill.
Maybe it bothers them to relive that experience.
PJM – thanks for sharing your story.
My prayer is God would strengthen and encourage women and men who’ve suffered to step forward one day, and with one voice thunderously declare – no more abortion!
PJM, I also want to tell you that you are very brave for sharing your story. If anyone should be punished in the story it should have been your horrible, cowardly boyfriend who first had sex with you then refused to support your right to choose (which was to keep the child). If I was the clinics councilor I would have told you there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a single parent and I would have discussed ways with you to become financially independent.
I mean we should have better day care for working parents. If a single mother could have free day care then she could get work at a minimum wage job full time she could afford a small apartment and enough to get by. Then if she could get a free education at a community college she could work her way up to getting a better job and becoming financially stable and able to pay all her expenses herself rather then just being on welfare.
I know, I know, I’m a progressive.
But Jess, that’s what I was trying to say in my post above…and believe it or not, I actually did post above. LOL Guess it was too long for folks to read. Ok.
Anyway, Jess, if you would tell a woman that there’s nothing wrong with being a single parent who could keep and raise her child, then you would not be HIRED as a counselor at a Planned Parenthood or any other abortion facility. Because they are there to make money from the women, not to encourage or empower them.
Sorry I read like the first few then just skimmed : )
Ok Kel then maybe I’ll make my own abortion clinic were we encourage women to make their own choices. If they don’t want to be pregnant then they don’t have to be. If they do want a child then we would make sure they have everything they need. No pressure, all the information one would need to make an informed decision and we would offer sonograms and ultrasounds on demand.
BTW, PJM–you’re exactly right when you say that the pro-choice position is “The only moral abortion is YOUR abortion.” Great point. Thank you. :)
As a pro-choicer I try not to judge anyone. It is your choice. It should always be your choice whether or not to have sex (with your partners consent) and it should be your choice whether or not have children. Some people just don’t want to be pregnant and that’s fine. Some people do and that’s fine to. It’s their body.
Jess, then the only difference between a PRC and “your imaginary clinic” is the fact that you would still perform abortions. Would you perform them for free, too, Jess? Because if not, then you would still be profiting from a woman in a desperate situation.
If you did charge, it’d be awfully hard to refuse that “repeat business” you’d be getting…a few hundred dollars here, a few hundred more there…
I have a solution to the woman not wanting to be pregnant: wait nine months, then place the child for adoption. Voila! Not pregnant anymore. ;)
I know this might get deleted but I’ll give it a go; once my roommate and I were watching one of those “shock” video’s on a dare. It was a man cutting off his own genitals. My initial thought was, “OMG what a freak.” But then I thought, well, it is his body and he isn’t affecting anyone else by his decision so he should be able to do it without my criticism.
Well since I’m not a doctor i wouldn’t be able to preform abortions. I guess it would just be referrals so I wouldn’t be profiting.
Oh, Jess, don’t be silly. It’s not just HER body we’re talking about here, and you know it.
Is a child just “part of a woman’s body?” An unborn male child, for example, inside a woman is definitely NOT “part of her body”. He is a wholly different human being, genetically. So you cannot use the argument that “it’s her body” when there is another, newly created life (dependent upon her) living within her.
“When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.”- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, feminist foremother, 1868.
Oh, Jess, don’t be silly. It’s not just HER body we’re talking about here, and you know it.
Is a child just “part of a woman’s body?” An unborn male child, for example, inside a woman is definitely NOT “part of her body”. He is a wholly different human being, genetically. So you cannot use the argument that “it’s her body” when there is another, newly created life (dependent upon her) living within her.
“When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.”- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, feminist foremother, 1873.
Sorry, the second quote has the correct year in it.
The woman is in a state of pregnancy though. She has the right not to be pregnant. So I say up until the point of viability. The way I see it the purpose of abortion is not to kill a child but end a pregnancy. Of course the child is killed when the pregnancy is ended but that wasn’t the point of the abortion. That’s why I don’t believe in letting a child die if it is born alive during the abortion. If the child is out of the woman’s body then she is not pregnant and thus the abortion was complete. The child has every right to live now that it is not causing the woman to be pregnant.
Say there’s an etopic pregnancy; the child is causing the woman to die. The child has to be removed in order to save the woman’s life. I know the child didn’t ask to be an etopic pregnancy but I don’t think a woman should be forced to agree to die every time she has sex. I know it’s a little far fetched but I thought it could help you understand my position a little more. So while you think human has the right to be born, I think a woman’s right to choose to be pregnant or not trumps that.
And I’m sorry I know I spelt etopic wrong what’s the right way to spell it?
And I know there is always going to be some stupid clam on the pro-choice side that thinks people should be able to kill children, even outside of the womb, for the hell of it and there’s always going to be pro-life people who want to kill everyone (Eric Rudolph) but those aren’t really pro-life or pro-choice, those are just extreme wack jobs who ruin it for the rest of us.
“Would you perform them for free, too, Jess? Because if not, then you would still be profiting from a woman in a desperate situation.”
Even if a clinic is free, you still have bills to pay, such as disposal of hazardous waste, electricity, water, rental of the building. Doctors still need to be paid (after 6+ years of medical school and training, do you really think they won’t get compensated at least a little?), materials need to be purchased…the list goes on and on.
I’ll get the Unitarians to pay for it. Or what was the other pro-choice religion that Jill posted that was hosting a pro-choice lobbyist convention?
If this country was progressive the government would pay for it.
Jess,
Why should the gov’t, i.e. the taxpayers, pay for abortion?
Mary, because by paying for the abortion, we avoid paying for childbirth, which costs a lot more.
Paying for abortions SAVES the taxpayers money. If we didn’t fund abortions for the indigent, we’d have to pay HIGHER taxes.
PJMama, you wrote: “how can a “mass of cells” be unlucky? do you often attribute human qualities to inanimate objects? isn’t that what a fetus is to you”
You are new to the site, so you don’t yet know that I consider the unborn to be human persons, but I believe that pregnant women are entitled to kill and expel them at will anyway.
Your fetus was unlucky to be conceived inside a woman (you) who didn’t want it. That’s unlucky for it.
Mike, I’ll tell you this much: you are mistaken. I have more personal experience with abortion, and know more about abortion, than (almost) anyone here.
And by the way, you wrote: “more to be pitied, than censored.”
The correct expression is “more to be pitied than CENSURED.” “Censure” and “Censor” are different words. Look it up.
It was a typo.
Get over yourself.
“Mike, I’ll tell you this much: you are mistaken. I have more personal experience with abortion, and know more about abortion, than (almost) anyone here.”
Then tell us SoMG what EXACTLY you do with regards to abortion. And WHY do you post here? To convert us ignorant fetus-worshippers?
Your statement:”I consider the unborn to be human persons, but I believe that pregnant women are entitled to kill and expel them at will anyway.”
means you are a psychopath. Anyone who believes in killing a human without any conscience or second thought is a psychopath.
You are to be pitied and prayed for.
Here’s one of your hated ob’s who found his way to the TRUTH, SoMG:
http://www.thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3066&PLID=70
Of course the child is killed when the pregnancy is ended but that wasn’t the point of the abortion
Maybe in the land of denial it’s not, but for those of us living in reality…it is. You’re having an abortion because you don’t want what? A Child? So that’s the point of it, to kill a child, unborn baby, whatever you want to call it.
The child has every right to live now that it is not causing the woman to be pregnant.
Errrr, what? The woman caused herself to be pregnant?…a child can’t by some magic make itself in the womb of a woman who didn’t have sex.
:said with love of course Jess: :)
If a single mother could have free day care then she could get work at a minimum wage job full time she could afford a small apartment and enough to get by.
There are government programs that pay for daycare.
Then if she could get a free education at a community college she could work her way up to getting a better job and becoming financially stable and able to pay all her expenses herself rather then just being on welfare.
At the one I go to, there were at least 20 or more scholarships SPECIFICALLY for single mothers. It’s out there, Jess…I think the key is to making people AWARE of it.
Nobody wants other people to suffer. But implementing more programs when there already ARE programs out there (people just don’t know about them) is just a waste of taxpayer dollars. And the more money people make that they get to KEEP helps people too. Here’s a thought…maybe if the government would quit taking money and blowing it on sh*t…single mothers wouldn’t have it so bad. :)
Jess, you are correct. An ectopic pregnancy is a DIRECT threat to the woman’s LIFE. In that case, where it is DEFINITE that she and her unborn child WILL DIE if the pregnancy is not terminated, then there really is no other choice. It would be irresponsible to refuse to save the life of the mother and allow her to die along with her child.
In the case of an ELECTIVE or “THERAPEUTIC” abortion, we are talking about something wholly different. An elective abortion is just that…something that one “elects” or chooses to do, for whatever reason. A therapeutic abortion is done for other reasons, usually in the case of a fetal abnormality of some sort. As you can imagine, I don’t care for the term “therapeutic” when it comes to abortion. It makes me think “abortion=therapy.” And wow, is that ever FAR from the truth!
When you use the argument of ectopic pregnancy, it really isn’t the same thing…the woman isn’t “electing” to not be pregnant anymore. Her very LIFE is being saved by that procedure. It is a life or death situation for that mother. It has nothing to do with her “choosing or not choosing” to continue with that pregnancy.
And um…the thing that “causes a woman to be pregnant” is that fact that she had sex. Cause: sex; effect: pregnancy. The possible RESULT of sex is a pregnancy. One cannot be pregnant with anything BUT a child (Does anyone say, “Well, today, a tumor in my uterus has caused me to be pregnant”??), so your argument makes no sense to me. No one says, “Oh, gosh, this baby sure has caused me to be pregnant.” LOL
The very act of sex between a man and a woman is one which leads to REPRODUCTION, which I believe is something they’ve forgotten to teach young people today. If a young woman does not wish to become pregnant (with a BABY, of course) then she should take precautions against it…there are plenty of birth control options out there, which the public schools are no doubt handing out for free and teaching students how to use. (I’m not saying I think that’s all super-duper, I’m just saying that’s how it is.)
Anyone who blames the unborn child for the pregnancy really needs to have his or her head examined.
Actions have consequences, Jess. If a man and woman engage in sex, they need to be prepared to accept and deal with those consequences afterward, whatever they may be. Disposing of a new life that they created is not okay. You take the action, you deal with the consequence, you don’t pay someone to cover it up so you can go off and do it again. I’m not trying to be insensitive to those here who have had abortions, please don’t misunderstand me…I’m trying to say that abortion seems to mock the very idea of any sort of personal, human responsibility. And it certainly teaches “me-ism”, as well as the right of a stronger person to snuff out the life of a weaker (defenseless) one.
Is it okay for someone to enslave another person simply because they can? Is it okay for someone to kill another person simply because they’re making that person’s life rather inconvenient? Or do you just think it’s okay to do so in abortion because of the baby’s size and location? Is that what you’re saying here, Jess? It’s okay to kill, as long as the baby doesn’t show its little face to the world before we get to it?
Kel, you wrote: “Is it okay for someone to enslave another person simply because they can? Is it okay for someone to kill another person simply because they’re making that person’s life rather inconvenient? Or do you just think it’s okay to do so in abortion because of the baby’s size and location? ”
Location is important.
For instance, if I hold a pencil three inches away from your eye, that’s no crime.
But if I change its location by three inches, poking you in the eye, that’s a serious crime.
And all that has changed is location.
If someone is located in your body, you are entitled to kill and expel them at will. Why? Because they’re inside YOUR body.
Patricia, your link pointed to a doc at whose clinic now “No contraceptives are prescribed, and no abortions are referred. ”
We can afford for him to do this, because his patients can easily obtain their abortions elsewhere. We don’t need him.
But if we lived in, say, Brazil, where abortion is difficult to obtain, then the doc would sooner or later have the experience of turning away a patient requesting abortion, and seeing her die later from an illegal abortion or an attempt to self-abort. Then he’d be in the position of having failed to prevent his patient’s death because of his fetus fetish. I think he would find it difficult to continue to decline patients’ requests for abortion services after that experience.
Why do you guys keep saying “fetus fetish?” I just don’t want to see children killed! Is there something wrong with that?? Somg, are you smarter than a fifth grader?
SOMG, 9:24PM
That was the favorite argument 30 years ago and I see it hasn’t changed much. Its so much cheaper just to kill them off. Think of all the money saved. Another favorite was that poor women would die like flies from illegal abortion. That never happened either. I remember the heyday of tax payer funded abortion SOMG, and I have no memory of decreasing social problems or expenses, only women who didn’t bother with birth control because they could get an abortion for “free”.
I also recall there was only “concern” for the poor when they couldn’t have abortions.
SOMG 12:49am
So you would argue that a woman can kill and expel a full term baby at will.
Mary, I think SoMG has made that perfectly clear. I understand the need to have him or clarify ad nauseum, but I for one choose to receive his message at face value. He is a sociopath. A dangerous person who should never be around children.
I would also suggest that anyone who knows him refuse any dinner invitation to his home, as he may be waiting there with a shotgun to get rid of them based on their location, even though he invited them there. Humanity be damned, it’s the location that makes them expendible in his twisted logic.
Again, get help SoMG.
I find it frightening that he may be an abortionist. He doesn’t respect women at all.
However, I think most abortionists are sociopaths. Look at the things they do and say. Remember when we had that abortionists on Jill’s site? He sounded just like Somg. He even wrote that term paper on bodily autonomy. The man was very mentally disturbed.
Mary, the fact remains that taxes would be higher if we didn’t subsidize abortion services for the indigent.
Why should pro-choicers have to pay higher taxes to cover the costs of right-to-life policies they don’t agree with?
SOMG,
You abortion advocates always argue how much worse a problem would be without abortion, but fail miserably to solve any social problems with abortion. That’s like a police chief taking credit for the crime rate not being higher in a crime ridden community. SOMG, there shouldn’t be any money spent on the indigent at all because abortion was going to cure poverty, or are you too young to remember when abortion advocates made this claim?
Also, if we would concentrate our efforts on eliminating poverty and not the unborn children of poor women, then we would really see a difference in the money spent on the indigent.
Uh SOMG, why should pro-life taxpayers have to subsidize abortions they don’t agree with and don’t see as any solution to social problems?
Taxes are high because of irresponsible government spending and policies that have only promoted poverty and government dependency. If you have such an issue with higher taxes supporting the indigent, then write your congressperson and senator and demand they be more responsible with your tax dollars.
Mary, you wrote: “Uh SOMG, why should pro-life taxpayers have to subsidize abortions they don’t agree with and don’t see as any solution to social problems?”
Because if we didn’t subsidize the abortions for the indigent we’d all have to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the costs of the childbirths.
Paying $500 for an abortion allows you to save thousands of dollars which you would otherwise have to pay for childbirth costs. You enjoy extra money in your pocket because of abortions. They save more than they cost.
The cost of the abortion is like paying a small entrance fee to get into a room filled with gold you can take out.
The right-to-life policy is the more expensive one.
I don’t know how many ways I can explain it before you understand. Abortions for the indigent save you more than they cost. By paying for them, you get to keep more of your own money because you don’t have to pay for the births. If you want a right-to-life policy, YOU have to pay extra for it.
You wrote: “You abortion advocates always argue how much worse a problem would be without abortion, but fail miserably to solve any social problems with abortion. ”
That’s not true. We have solved the Problem of the Black Market in Abortion Services, which killed many women and criminalized many more.
Abortion in the USA kills fewer than one patient per hundred thousand abortions. Eighty-eight percent of our abortions are done in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy. These are numbers to be proud of.
Yes, PJMama, you’re right…sociopath. Dangerous. Most definitely.
And also: “If someone is located in your body, you are entitled to kill and expel them at will. Why? Because they’re inside YOUR body.”
SomeONE? Not a thing? Wow. I’m honestly stunned that you are referring to the unborn child in terms of personhood.
And yet, no problem with killing them.
I find that very interesting. And sick.
BTW, your statistic, SoMG, on abortion killing only one patient per hundred thousand abortions: you forgot to mention that there were a hundred thousand (plus one) ACTUAL DEATHS. Golly gee, you must be bursting with pride.
sweet rolls royce
the pregnant woman is who, nobody else.
Down, WRONG!
Somg, you’re arguments are completely insane. You aren’t supposed to kill anyone. You just kill defenseless children because you can. How do you live with yourself? How do you sleep at night?
SOMG,
How many times do I have to explain to you that until we address the problem of poverty itself we will do nothing to solve the problem or its costs.
Also, if abortion does indeed cure poverty, shouldn’t poverty be non-existent after 35 years of legal abortion?
SOMG,
You’ve solved the problem of the black market in abortion services? All that has happened SOMG is that back street hacks have moved up to the avenue and hung a shingle. Hodari is only one example. Legalizing anything does not put the criminal element out of business, it all too often only gives them more and better opportunities.
However women dying of legal abortion is not quite as bad as women dying of illegal abortion, right?
Mary, did you get my e-mail? My computer has been acting up. Just wondering.
Mary, that’s right. Poverty remains.
Heather,
Yes I did and I will get back to you. Its been a busy few days.
Mary, okay.
Mary: How many times do I have to explain to you that until we address the problem of poverty itself we will do nothing to solve the problem or its costs.
Mary, do you think that’s possible, in the first place? I think it’s human nature that it’s going to be present, at times due to nothing more than the attitudes and desires of the individual himself that is said to be in poverty.
……
Also, if abortion does indeed cure poverty, shouldn’t poverty be non-existent after 35 years of legal abortion?
You’re generalizing from the particular. Yes, people sometimes want to end pregnancies because of their financial situation, and yes, it can be said that not having kids or having less kids helps some people financially, but as above I don’t think there is any “curing poverty.” Legal abortion or no, there’s gonna be poor people; really has nothing to do with it, overall – poor people with kids and without.
Doug,
I certainly don’t think there’s any one cure all for poverty and any number of factors can contribute to it. Sometimes its people with no ability to manage their lives and money(my grandmother, may she rest in peace) or other times its people content to do nothing to better themselves. Also. people can be victims of circumstances beyond their control.
I’m making the point to SOMG that taxpayer or otherwise funded abortion will not and never has cured poverty. Its not that simplistic a problem.
Pro-life people made the argument from the beginning that abortion is no cure all for poverty, that the human problems are what need to be addressed. You and I are definitely in agreeement there.
Isn’t it obvious by now, that Somg is an abortionist?
He’s just terrified that he’s soon going to be put out of business.
In 1970, I was raped, became pregnant and found myself at a PP, seeking a pregnancy test.
At the time, abortion was illegal in our state and the only option offered to me by PP, was to go to California for an abortion.
Just graduating from high school, no job, no money, quite young and naive, I had no idea what to do.
I did know this; I was pregnant with a baby, not a blob of tissue and knew if I were to get an abortion, it would kill the baby.
Keeping the secret of my pregancy and living in denial worked for a little while. I told a few friends and my granma. My grandma was very supportive and told me I could stay with her and give the baby up for adoption. She said she knew of other girls that chose this option.
My father was scheduled for heart surgery, so I went home for that. He died.
My mother was grieving the loss of her husband and I couldn’t add to her sorrow, so I kept my pregancy a secret from her a little longer.
My brothers were home for our dad’s funeral, so I told them and my sister in laws about my pregnancy.
My brother who lived in town said we should wait a little and sit down and tell my mom together.
I was almost 5 months pregnant when I told her and hadn’t had any prenatal care up to that point.
When we told her about my pregnancy, she almost fainted. Although, she supported me and helped me to find help, through a Catholic sliding scale clinic.
I was counseled for adoption.
When my daughter was born, in March of 71, I asked to see her, before I signed the final papers. My mom was there.
As I held her, I looked at my mom and said it would be very hard to give her up. She had tears in her eyes, too.
I said, it would be hard, not having a job and no means of support to take on the responsibility of caring for this precious little girl, but I really wanted to keep her.
My mom smiled and I told her I didn’t know how, but I would find a way to be a good mom and she just held both of us in her arms.
It’s so true, God being the author of all life, doesn’t make mistakes. He knew this little girl, before time began.
I can’t imagine this life without her. She will be 37 soon. She has touched many people’s lives in a positive way and this world wouldn’t be the same without her.
There are two little kids who call me “grandma” because of her.
Until we make abortion unthinkable, we will have to suffer the consequencial loss of many wonderful
and talented people, who are ending up in the trash can of abortion mills.
Maybe the person who would have grown up to cure cancer, or aids, is in one of those trash cans?
Thanks to all who have bravely, shared their story of abortion. Without your first hand knowledge there are many who would make the wrong choice. It’s easy to judge, when you haven’t walked in someone’s shoes.
God is good and with Jesus there is love and mercy!
In 1970, I was raped, became pregnant and found myself at a PP, seeking a pregnancy test.
At the time, abortion was illegal in our state and the only option offered to me by PP, was to go to California for an abortion.
Just graduating from high school, no job, no money, quite young and naive, I had no idea what to do.
I did know this; I was pregnant with a baby, not a blob of tissue and knew if I were to get an abortion, it would kill the baby.
Keeping the secret of my pregancy and living in denial worked for a little while. I told a few friends and my granma, who I went to visit out of state. My grandma was very supportive and told me I could stay with her and give the baby up for adoption. She said she knew of other girls that chose this option.
My father was scheduled for heart surgery, so I went home for that. He died.
My mother was grieving the loss of her husband and I couldn’t add to her sorrow, so I kept my pregancy a secret from her a little longer.
My brothers were home for our dad’s funeral, so I told them and my sister in laws about my pregnancy.
My brother who lived in town said we should wait a little and we would sit down and tell my mom together.
I was almost 5 months pregnant when I told her and hadn’t had any prenatal care up to that point.
When we told her about my pregnancy, she almost fainted. Although, she supported me and helped me to find help, through a Catholic sliding scale clinic.
I was counseled for adoption.
When my daughter was born, in March of 71, I asked to see her, before I signed the final papers. My mom was there.
As I held her, I looked at my mom and said it would be very hard to give her up. She had tears in her eyes, too.
I said, it would be hard, not having a job and no means of support to take on the responsibility of caring for this precious little girl, but I really wanted to keep her.
My mom smiled and I told her I didn’t know how, but I would find a way to be a good mom and she just held both of us in her arms.
I went on to go to school through a program for single moms.
With my mom’s help and support I cared for and raised my daughter.
I met a wonderful man, who I married when she was 14. He loves my daughter as his own!
God worked it out for me in his perfect plan; I truly believe!
It’s so true, God being the author of all life, doesn’t make mistakes. He knew this little girl, before time began.
I can’t imagine this life without her. She will be 37 soon. She has touched many people’s lives in a positive way and this world wouldn’t be the same without her.
There are two little kids who call me “grandma” because of her.
Until we make abortion unthinkable, we will have to suffer the consequencial loss of many wonderful
and talented people, who are ending up in the trash can of abortion mills.
Maybe the person who would have grown up to cure cancer, or aids, is in one of those trash cans?
Thanks to all who have bravely, shared their story of abortion. Without your first hand knowledge there are many who would make the wrong choice. It’s easy to judge, when you haven’t walked in someone’s shoes.
God is good and with Jesus there is love and mercy!
sorry about the double post…still trying to figure out this computer stuff! God bless you all!
AZ Grandma, what a beautiful story! Thank you for sharing.
Except the rape, just to make that part clear.
AZ Grandma,
Your post made me cry. I am so thankful that you chose life for your daughter. What a precious gift God has given you in her and her children!!! Please comment again! :)
I’m making the point to SOMG that taxpayer or otherwise funded abortion will not and never has cured poverty. Its not that simplistic a problem.
Mary, I don’t think SoMG or anybody else claimed that all poverty would magically vanish with legal abortion or funded abortion. It’s an individual thing, while poverty affects many (or not) regardless of abortion. Agreed that it’s not a simple thing, at all. Individual-by-individual, however, not having kids or having less kids can make a huge difference, financially.
……
Pro-life people made the argument from the beginning that abortion is no cure all for poverty, that the human problems are what need to be addressed. You and I are definitely in agreeement there.
“Addressing human problems” – there are quite a few countries where most of the people would look at what we in the US consider a very poor person, and say, “Human problems? You want to see problems, come here. You ain’t got no problems….”
IMO there are simply going to be “poor people.” I think the dynamics of human societies and human nature ensure that. When societies try to “ban poverty” a la communism or socialism, the total amount of wealth produced lessens so much that the odds are incredibly against any chance of success in real terms – the average person ends up poorer, in fact, quite a bit poorer.
As far as you and others wanting pregnant girls (for example) to be helped monetarily if it’s lack of money that’s having them want abortions, that sounds okay to me. Somebody feeling like they have to have an abortion because of money matters sounds sad to me. I also don’t think that people should do what they cannot afford, but if we are to spend tax dollars caring for people, helping pregnant girls is on the list as far as I’m concerned.
And of course there are people that are going to want to end pregnancies beyond any money issues – they just don’t want to be pregnant, at least not at that time.
Doug
AZ Grandma, that indeed was a nice story, and I’m glad your daughter had the choice, as I’m glad others have the choice to do what is best for them – whichever decision they make.
Doug
Doug,
SOMG claimed that we pay more in taxes to subsidize the poor and would not have to if the gov’t paid for abortion. Obviously he/she is of the impression that the more abortions the indigent have, the fewer of them we have to support, i.e. less poverty stricken people. A way to cut down on poverty and its costs. If only it were that simple.
When the Hyde Amendment went into effect, cutting off medicaid funding, abortion advocates howled liked banshees. We were again reminded of how much cheaper it was to dispose of the unborn children of the poor then it was to support them on welfare. Again, the mentality that abortion will solve poverty. It also played well with our society, which always prefers a simple solution where none exists.
I certainly agree about other countries and how they view us. We have absolutely no concept of true poverty in this country. Our poverty would be the last word in luxury to most of the world’s poor.
AZ Grandma,
An incredible story, thank you. Welcome to this blog. I hope you will be a regular poster here. You have so much insight and wisdom to offer all of us.
SOMG claimed that we pay more in taxes to subsidize the poor and would not have to if the gov’t paid for abortion. Obviously he/she is of the impression that the more abortions the indigent have, the fewer of them we have to support, i.e. less poverty stricken people. A way to cut down on poverty and its costs. If only it were that simple.
Mary, for example, it is not only the indigent that are poor, thus yes – it’s not so simple, but I would think that paying for an abortion is certainly much less costly than supporting somebody for years.
Again, it matters what constitutes “poor.” As taxpayers, we could support certain people less, and they’d often remain “poor.” The more hardline argument there is that it’d motivate them to work more, etc. We could also support them more, and we could still call them “poor” versus most of the rest of us.
On the whole, I’d think it depends on whether there are poor people not having abortions because they can’t pay for them. If so, then SoMG’s argument could be made, but otherwise not.
……
When the Hyde Amendment went into effect, cutting off medicaid funding, abortion advocates howled liked banshees. We were again reminded of how much cheaper it was to dispose of the unborn children of the poor then it was to support them on welfare. Again, the mentality that abortion will solve poverty. It also played well with our society, which always prefers a simple solution where none exists.
Well, if the cutting off of funding, which saved federal money, would result in increased costs overall, then the “cheaper” argument would certainly apply. That’s not saying that abortion “solves poverty,” just that from the standpoint of expenditures a cost/benefit analysis could be done. It’s also saying nothing about the moral issues.
AZGrandma,
Your post made me cry…you and your mother are wonderful people as is your daughter I am sure. How lucky she is to have a mother like you.
Some day I will be a grandma with a fabulous story like that to share as well! :)
AZGrandma, thank you so much for sharing your story…it brought tears to my eyes. I’ve often told young women that nothing surprises God…He sees it all and knows it all. How blessed you were to have a supportive, loving family around you.
I am amazed at your strength of character in the face of a grievous act committed against you…and only God is awesome enough to take a bad situation and turn it around for good. You (and your daughter and her children) are living, breathing examples of His indescribable goodness.
Doug,
You’re right. Killing them is much cheaper in the long run and I don’t doubt for a minute that all this “concern” for poor women was motivated only by a deep and profound sense of charity.
The poor aren’t having abortions because they can’t afford them? How about the possibility of the poor using “free” abortion for birth control?
I don’t have a source but I well remember reading that when one Southern state, maybe Georgia but don’t hold me to that, cut out taxpayer funded abortion. Despite the wailing Cassandras who warned us of imminent doom, no women were dying of illegal abortions. What was discovered instead was that the pregnancy rate among the poor went down! The only thing that could be determined was that when taxpayer funded abortion was not available, women who truly did not want to be pregnant took more precautions against unwanted pregnancy. Money saved on both fronts there!
I think Ron Weddington, who argued for Roe v Wade before the Supreme Court, summed it up when he wrote to then President Bill Clinton and urged the use of abortion “to eliminate the barely educated, unhealthy, and poor segment of our country”.
Sure sounds to me like getting rid of the “undesirables” and the money they cost is what motivates this “concern” for poor women and the desire to get as many of them on the abortion table as possible.
Doug,
I would like to add that almost 40 years ago I worked in a large city hospital. Being young and naive, I was shocked to see the single women producing babies. I was even more shocked when these women admitted these pregnancies were very much planned and wanted. These were not naive school girls, they were for the most part grown women who certainly knew where babies came from and could obtain birth control.
Abortion would curb the expenses of having these children? Fat chance, as I said these pregnancies were not accidents. What I see today isn’t much different. You have no idea how many of these teenagers and young women I have seen deliberately becoming pregnant, no matter how desperate their circumstances or what opportunities they have been blessed with, which they often throw away.
Another favorite is the women I’ve encountered who were sexually active, used no contraception, and were “shocked” they became pregnant. Off to the abortionist! Maybe they and their partners would have been more careful to begin with if abortion wasn’t so readily available, and HE knew he would be financially responsible for the results of his sexual activity.
Its been my experience that with “free” or readily available abortion those who want to have babies will keep having them, and those that don’t want them won’t bother with birth control.
AZ Grandma;
I cried when I read your post. Thank you for sharing that intensely personal and life-affirming story with all of us.
PJMama
AZ Grandma:
What a wonderful Mother you had, it was quite a sacrifice that you BOTH made for your daughter! God bless you and your family for your witness to Life!
Mary: I would like to add that almost 40 years ago I worked in a large city hospital. Being young and naive, I was shocked to see the single women producing babies. I was even more shocked when these women admitted these pregnancies were very much planned and wanted. These were not naive school girls, they were for the most part grown women who certainly knew where babies came from and could obtain birth control.
Mary, you’re really good – you see a way to go to the ways other people perceive things. I am thankful for that.
……
Abortion would curb the expenses of having these children? Fat chance, as I said these pregnancies were not accidents. What I see today isn’t much different. You have no idea how many of these teenagers and young women I have seen deliberately becoming pregnant, no matter how desperate their circumstances or what opportunities they have been blessed with, which they often throw away.
Here too, I hear ya. I know that some of the motivation is to have “a little person who will love me,” or that they “fall in loive” with the idea of having a baby without the realization of what being a mother really entails. To me, that is anathema, but no doubt it happens. A lot.
…….
Another favorite is the women I’ve encountered who were sexually active, used no contraception, and were “shocked” they became pregnant. Off to the abortionist! Maybe they and their partners would have been more careful to begin with if abortion wasn’t so readily available, and HE knew he would be financially responsible for the results of his sexual activity.
Okay, I do agree that it’s mighty silly to think there is zero or insubstantial risk of pregnancy. However, regardless of the circumstances of coinception, for many women with unwanted pregnancies the best thing to do is have an abortion.
……
Its been my experience that with “free” or readily available abortion those who want to have babies will keep having them, and those that don’t want them won’t bother with birth control.
For those who want to have babies, what does “readily available abortion” matter or not?
I disagree on those who “don’t want to have babies” – you generalize but most of them do use birth control.
I never knew my brother. My mother had her tubes tied and the doctor didn’t realize she was pregnant. This same doctor told her the baby might not be perfect so she “chose” to abort him. My parents were well off church going people and my father came from a wealthy family. There were none of the usual excuses like we don’t have the money to raise another child, etc… They were rich and married and already had me. One night we were watching the news and there was footage of pro-lifers protesting. Only a 5th grader, I agreed and said I couldn’t understand how anyone would kill their own baby. My mother started with “well what if the child was retarded”, blah blah blah and then proceeded to tell me that she had an abortion the year before that. I don’t remember any details beyond the ones I have already typed, but I remember sitting on that floor beside her like it happened yesterday. I have forgiven her, but I’ve never been able to look at her the same since then. My father refused to have any say so in the “decision”. He has been majorly depressed ever since then and my mother is so mentally and emotionally scarred that she cannot even hold my daughter’s hand (her only grandchild). She holds her wrist.
To this day she is incapable of sympathy or empathy of any kind. She cannot feel any emotion but anger.
She passed that burden on to me without my permission. I carry the weight on my shoulders of what she did, although I had absolutely no part in it. I am now 30 years old, and 20 years later I still hurt. I wonder if I would have made better choices as a teenager if I’d had a brother to help look after me. I wonder if I would have had a mother capable of playing with me or talking to me, rather than cursing me and my father out all the time and telling me to stay in my room. I wonder when his birthday would have been, what he would have looked like, and what my job would have been in caring for him had he not been perfect. I wonder what it would be like for my daughter to have an uncle or cousins had he been allowed to live and get married to have a family of his own. I wonder if I would have had someone to talk to through the many struggles and heartbreaks in my life, and I wonder if my dad would have loved to have a son to go fishing and hunting with him. I wonder, would he have been my best friend and would he have loved my husband as much as I do? Would I have had someone to love me when I was growing up rather than consider me a burden and an annoying task to care for in the perfect wealthy American dream of a life my parents created together.
Her “choice” ruined her, ruined my father, and ruined me in many ways. I hated her with such passion for so many years that I can’t even describe it to you. I have since forgiven her only by much conviction and grace from God almighty.
One day I will have the courage to ask her when his birthday was. And one day I hope she will be able to feel human again, and one day in heaven I know I will meet my brother and tell him how I’ve missed him.
Sorry this is so long (trust me, I could go on and on), but siblings are affected too and people need to know that.
If you have had an abortion, never ever tell your living children. It will haunt them in a way that you cannot imagine. Carry the pain yourself and shield them from the unnecessary grief that my mother caused me.
I don’t expect anyone to actually read this since it’s so long, but in some way it is therapy for me to post this anonymously. The best therapy will be the day that I see his face in the presence of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Until then..
Thank you sincerely,
A. T. M , North Carolina
a.t.m, what a story. I’m so sorry you had to experience this. Your mom and dad seem to be suffering. I’ll pray for you and them. Please stay on the blog. We could sure use your input.
Thank you so much A.T.M. for sharing your experience with abortion.
Whether or not to tell living children of having had an unborn child of yours aborted is something that many post-abortive parents struggle with. I have tried to decide what I will do many times, although my two living sons are still very young (5 and 2). Thank you for telling your side of the story to give all of us some frame of reference for this decision of whether to tell your living children about your abortion.
I would say that perhaps the bitter manner in which your mother revealed this to you, along with I feel your much-too-young age, are contributing factors to your negative reaction. She blindsided you with this without any thought of how it might affect you, and that was improper.
I’m not saying that I will ever tell my sons about my abortion, but if I do so, I will make sure to tell the story in the vein of a teaching moment to warn against careless sexual practices and against the devastating after-effects of abortion, accompanied by a healthy dose of humility and self-reflection.
And it will definitely not be when they’re only ten years old.
I am so sorry for your pain. Just know that God loves you and that you are blessed with the gift of self-reflection, forgiveness toward others, and the ability to learn from the mistakes of others.
Bless your heart and God bless your little brother’s soul in heaven.
Doug 12:08am
What I’m pointing out is that there are men and women who will take absolutely no responsibility for protecting themselves from unwanted pregnancy. Perhaps they would if abortion were not so readily available.
Also the argument that “free” abortion will cut down on poverty or its expense doesn’t hold. Women, poor or not, who want to have babies will have them, abortion will do nothing to keep these women off welfare.
Those that don’t want to be pregnant will not bother with birth control, why should they? Abortion is “free”.
I am not saying all low income women have this mentality, I have seen plenty have tubal ligations or otherwise limit their family size through contraception. Its mostly the younger, more irresponsible women AND men who I have seen regard “free” abortion as an easy out. Unfortunately I have also seen this in older women AND men as well who you think would be more responsible.
Arizona grandma, your story is beautiful and it brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for sharing
Mary,
I agree that some people are now not using birth control where they would or probably would if abortion was illegal. Not nearly enough of a good reason to make it illegal, there, IMO – it’s taking away the rights of all women for the sake of trying to influence a much smaller part of the population on the basis of an already small amount of public opinion.
And sure – legal abortion doesn’t keep everybody off welfare, but it does cut down on poverty and expenses since there are less kids on welfare than there would be without it. I don’t see a woman on welfare with suffering kids as any better, necessarily, than the woman on welfare alone.
Doug, your story really stuck a chord with me. I am almost fifty now, but when I was a teenager my family was going through some very difficult times financially. This was in New York State, which always has had liberal abortion laws. My parents found out that they were pregnant with their fifth child. I don’t know if both of them reached the decision to have the procedure together, but I remember my mom coming home from the hospital and crying on the bed. Her stomach was red and swollen and looked horrible. She was crying and said that she had been “salted down” and she saw her dead baby in some kind of container — it was a little boy. Apparently she had had a saline abortion. In my 11 year old mind I didn’t now what was going on, I wasn’t sure what abortion was, but I realized it caused pain and tears. I must add that my mother suffers from mental illness and at the time was not very stable. The mental and emotional distress of the mother has often been used as an excuse for abortion, but I can’t believe that having a dangerous second-trimester abortion, one in which she delivered what is essentially a scalded corpse, discarded like so much “medical waste,” could have helped her mental state.
Many years later, I heard my father say “we could had that baby.. But they hadn’t. I sometimes think about my little brother, the one who was, but was not to be. In my mind I can imagine him though, smart, funny, annoying in that little brother name. I even have a name for him.
I call him Simon.