Father hides daughter in cellar dungeon 24 years; fathers 7 children
This is a horrifying story from Austria. It is not directly tied to the pro-life issue but is so shocking I must blog on it. Reported the AFP today:
An elderly Austrian… confessed Monday to imprisoning his daughter in a cellar for 24 years and fathering her 7 children, prosecutors said.
Josef Fritzl, 73, “has admitted building the dungeon and to holding his daughter and three children there,” prosecution spokesman Gerhard Sedlacek [said].
Fritzl also admitted incest “but insisted there was no force involved,” said Sedlacek. One of the children died at an early age….
Read how the story came to light and view police photos of the cellar dungeon on page 2.
[Photo of Fritzl courtesy of AFP; police photos courtesy of MonstersandCritics.com]
14 police meanwhile scoured the 3 cramped underground rooms in the family house in Amstetten… where Elisabeth Fritzl and her children were held prisoner.
She has alleged she was drugged by her father in August 1984 and had been his prisoner ever since. All seven children were born in the “dungeon”.
The 6 surviving children are 3 boys and 3 girls aged between five and 20.
The rooms, measuring “50-60 square metres in all” and with a ceiling just 1.70 metres (5.5 feet) high were “furnished like a flat”, Sedlacek said.
Lower Austria police chief, Franz Polzer, said there was “a wide range of questions that still need answering” such as how Fritzl supplied the woman and children with food, how the babies were born and cared for in such cramped conditions, and how he could have incarcerated his victims for so long without his wife knowing….
DNA tests are being carried out to establish if Fritzl is the father of the 6surviving children. The 7th child, a twin, is believed to have died shortly after birth and the body subsequently burned, police said.
The… tabloid portrayed Fritzl as a keen fisherman, popular among neighbours and locals….
He legally adopted 2 of the boys and 1 girl, allegedly telling his wife, Rosemarie, and local authorities that 3 babies had been left by Elisabeth on their doorstep, in different years.
Each delivery was accompanied by a letter purportedly signed by Elisabeth Fritzl saying she could not support the child because she already had others to care for.
The trio went to school as normal, seemingly unaware that their mother and three other siblings (a girl of 19, and boys at 18 and 5) were trapped underground.
Neither neighbours nor social services appear to have had any inkling, either.
“They had a swimming pool in the garden, we would hear them laughing the three of them,” said one neighbour….
Elisabeth Fritzl told investigators her mother knew nothing about the sexual abuse she had endured since the age of 11, some seven years before she was locked away.
The crime came to light when one of the dungeoned children grew ill. According to the Associated Press:
The case unfolded after a gravely ill teenager was found unconscious on April 19 in the building where her grandparents live, and taken to a hospital in the town of Amstetten. Told that the sick 19-year-old’s mother was missing, authorities publicly appealed for her to come forward.
Officers received a tip and picked up the mother near the hospital on Saturday, police said.
The mother, whom authorities identified as Elisabeth F., told officers that she had just been released after two decades of captivity at the hands of her father. She said that on Aug. 28, 1984 her father had sedated her, handcuffed her and locked her in a room in the cellar of the family’s apartment building….
Police said Josef, 73, and Rosemarie had raised three of Elisabeth’s children in their apartment in a two-story building in Amstetten, a small town about 80 miles west of Vienna.
Josef and Rosemarie registered the children with authorities, saying that they had found them outside their home in 1993, 1994 and 1997, at least one with a note from Elisabeth saying she could not care for the child.
The three other children apparently remained in the cellar with Elisabeth, police said….
Police said the sick 19-year-old, Kerstin, had been found unconscious on April 19 in the apartment building, with a handwritten note purportedly signed by Elisabeth, asking that she be given care.
More info from the Times Online:
A 7th child was said to have died 3 days after his birth. His body was tossed into an incinerator at the family home….
Beneath the family home beyond a hidden electronic trapdoor the children, aged 19, 18, 16, 14, 11, and 5, were conceived and born….
Police have spent the last two days exploring the network of rooms where they say Elisabeth was first imprisoned on August 28 1984, aged 19, after being drugged and handcuffed by her father. The tiny entrance was concealed in a workshop in a public part of the cellar.
“There was a shelf with plenty of cans and containers, and behind the shelf was a door made of reinforced concrete, secured electronically and running on steel rails, and only the suspect knew the code,” said Heinz Lenze, a local police official.
Once inside the dungeon, police reported, they found all the passages extremely narrow, the ceiling is no higher than 5ft 6ins (170cm) and the floors uneven. They have found a makeshift shower room, cooking rings for the secret family to heat food, and a room lined entirely in rubber.
Mr F, a retired engineer who used to work for the construction company Zehnter, was said by police to have been continuously renovating and extending the hidden cellar. Detectives say they have not ruled out finding further secret rooms underneath the sprawling villa.
All 7 children were born in the cellar, police say, but within months of their births they were divided between the dark and the light. As babies aged between nine and 15 months, three of them were adopted and raised by their grandparents, leading normal lives – attending school and playing in the swimming pool in the gardens of the villa.

Oh how sick!! How terribly sick and so very sad. :-(
What a deranged bunch of people. Lord have mercy on their souls.
So many questions, such little time…
This is a sick,sick story….
I heard about that. I don’t even know what to say about it.
The wife heard nothing?! Sick and sad is right.
What happened if they got sick? How was this girl pregnant for 9 months, 7 times and never ONCE saw a doctor? How did they decide which kids had to be trapped down there and which got to live upstairs, go to school, etc.?
More importantly, how did the guy build this whole secret dungeon contraption without his wife knowing about it? I think I read it had an electronic trapdoor…and YET, the wife had no clue?
Wow is all I can say to this.
I don’t care what the press says, the perv’s wife HAD to know what was going on. Hope the kids get the help they need.
How could she NOT know? Or maybe she did but didn’t WANT to know?! Too many questions in my brain on this one.
I think its safe to assume that even if the mother didn’t know, she’s not exactly all there mentally either…
But even though you said this isn’t related to pro life, I actually have a question specific to cases like these that is part of the reason I can’t reconcile becoming pro life.
What if that 19 year old who was found is pregnant? With a case like this, its more than likely he kept the older girls in the dungeon so he could have sex with them too.
If she wanted an abortion, would you all be comfortable with FORCING a 19 year old girl, already the result of incest, who’d spent her entire life in a dungeon and impregnated by her father to go through with that pregnancy?
Would killing her child make the incest go away? Would an abortion heal her? An abortion can never undo a rape or incest. It can only add to the trauma.
Hi again Amanda,
I have 2 friends that were raped at ages 14 and 17. They both had abortions. Another friend was a virgin and was raped. She kept that beautiful baby boy.
2 have the guilt and remorse of abortion. One has a gorgeous son.
How much power do you think I wield to FORCE someone to carry a baby? I cannot force anyone to do anything. Can I help them look at all of the options and choose life? Yep.
Thats not an answer to my question.
Having the baby wouldn’t make the incest go away or heal her either. You can’t erase the past no matter what choice you make.
In a case where the mother has not consented AND does not want to carry the child, you would be comfortable preventing a victim of incest and imprisonment from having an abortion if thats what she wanted?
How can I prevent someone from having an abortion??
I am not comfortable with someone going to have one after we have talked and prayed together. It breaks my heart. Truly. But Amanda, how can I force someone to carry a child or not carry a child?
“How much power do you think I wield to FORCE someone to carry a baby? I cannot force anyone to do anything. Can I help them look at all of the options and choose life? Yep.”
Those are two VERY different things. If you support abortion being made illegal, even in cases like this, you support the goverment forcing victims who want to abort to continue their pregnancy. Thats what Im asking. Are you comfortable with the goverment telling this woman she doesn’t GET to choose or consider her options, she HAS to have the baby.
Offering them options and alternatives is completely different – thats something you could still do with abortion remaining legal for those who choose it.
Incidentally, I also know 2 girls I went to high school who were raped. One had an abortion and said she can’t even imagine how she could have healed if she’d had the baby. The other one developed a drug problem, and her mom now has custody of the baby. There are a zillion different situations for a zillion different people – which is why I don’t think anyone can decide what the best choice is for all as a whole, rather than looking at individual cases.
I am comfortable with abortion being illegal and for ALL of us supporting women in VERY difficult circumstances. I am not a monster Amanda. I don’t think killing a baby is EVER going to solve anything. Choosing life is always going to be the right thing to do.
Thanks for picking my brain today. See? No name calling. A rational discussion. Thanks again. My cherubs just walked in from school. :)
How Bazzar. This is pure insanity, and even reading this makes me feel insane. But what’s worse is how many other stories like this are out there. How many other humans are kept in a prison to be exploited by some mad man? That’s what’s really scary.
Amanda –
In these situations there is no answer from either side of the debate. And to assume there is one is to be blinded by political correctness.
We have no idea the intelligence level of these kids. We have no idea what they have been taught in the area of reproduction and faith. We have no idea if she would understand what an abortion is – What kind of thoughts would she have on this? She was raised in a dungeon – no one can know what that is like – if someone brought up abortion in a situation like this – I sure hope they bring up extensive counseling as well. She could possibly see it as an answer to a question she doesn’t fully understand.
Should she be “forced” to go through pregnancy? Should she be “talked into” having an abortion? Not one of us can answer those questions. For the most part, since modern medicince, no doctor has watched a patient die because she was pregnant and the baby wasn’t viable. Would she be at a great risk of suicide by either decision? The question here isn’t if abortion should be legal – the question is how much counseling could be done to help her make a decision or to find out how close to deep depression she would be.
Do you ,or anyone, know of any studies that have been done and what the precentage is of women who end up regretting the abortion or regretting having the baby? I haven’t looked….Yet.
“In these situations there is no answer from either side of the debate. And to assume there is one is to be blinded by political correctness.”
Agreed – which is why I find the idea of it being outright illegal for a woman in a situation like this to have an abortion (if she so chooses) INCREDIBLY scary.
I find legal abortion on demand, for any reason or every reason, incredibly scary as well.
That’s so f***ked up…that piece of s**t needs to be put down like the scum he is. I don’t see how this relates to abortion though.
Valerie said: 4:25: “In these situations there is no answer from either side of the debate. And to assume there is one is to be blinded by political correctness.”
Amanda said: 4:41: Agreed – which is why I find the idea of it being outright illegal for a woman in a situation like this to have an abortion (if she so chooses) INCREDIBLY scary.
Carla said: 5:04: I find legal abortion on demand, for any reason or every reason, incredibly scary as well.
Carla, I agree.
Valerie: No correct answer???? Wait a minute. The answer is plain as day. If there is a baby, it’s a life, it should be allowed to be born. The answer is based on morality, not legality.
I don’t see anywhere in this nightmare of a true story where anyone is currently pregnant. Don’t you think there are enough problems to solve without guessing that someone is currently pregnant. This girl and her children have been living in that hell hole with this low-life the 8760 day, 210 thousand hours. Do you, could you even imagine what that is like?
How soon can they hang this vermin father by the testicles? That’s my question!
Outraged –
There was no mention of her being pregnant. I brought it up because these situations are an example of what I’ve tried to explain to a lot of the regulars here makes it hard for me to justify an outright ban on all abortions for all reasons.
You know… I’m normally against cruel and unusual punishment… but for some reason jail time just doesn’t seem enough.
Same for these people.
Sometimes I just wish I believed in hell so I can imagine these people in it.
Amanda,
Situations like this are so incredibly rare (Thank GOD!) that to use it as a justification for taking a human beings life is just too big a stretch.
If we banned abortion except for the rare instance where women are locked in basements by their fathers and raped over and over resulting in pregnancy 7 times, there would only be 1 abortion in 200 years.
And in a rare, rare case like this, I think you rally around this girl, her children and any siblings and help her through it the best you can.
But compounding this horrible evil with another evil is not the way to make things right. It would only make it more wrong. Now you’d have a messed up girl, 7 messed up kids and one dead baby.
The baby did not rape this girl, the baby did not lock her in a basement, the baby is an innocent bystander and should not be given the death penalty for her father/grandfathers crimes.
70 to 90 percent of children are molested by someone they know.
Roughly 33% of girls and 14% of boys are molested before the age of 18, according to the U.S. Justice Department.
More than 32,000 pregnancies result from rape every year.
So what if not every one of those women was locked in a basement? I don’t consider 32,000 a year a small number, do you?
“It is not directly tied to the pro-life issue but is so shocking I must blog on it.”
Didn’t take long, Jill. At the end of the day, it has certainly become a pro-life issue. In a most dangerous way.
“Elisabeth Fritzl told investigators her mother knew nothing about the sexual abuse she had endured since the age of 11, some seven years before she was locked away”.
BS…
As for the story itself, unreal. Absolutely unreal.
Which reminds me of the incarceration of Blessed Margaret of Castello. Some of us here on the blog are familiar with her (“wink, wink”)
She was born cripple, blind, and downright ugly. Her noble parents were horrified at the prospect of having such a deformed child. At the tender age of 6 they built a cell adjacent to a chapel and sealed her up in there for several years. Her only contact was with a parish priest. She was permitted to recieve communion during that time, but forced to be isolated.
I have to go, but mk, maybe you could finish the story.
This whole story just reminded me of the abuse Blessed Margaret endured.
This kind of reminds me of the Texas FLDS scandal, just on a smaller scale.
This monster’s wife claims she knew nothing about what was going on, yet three of the children lived upstairs with them. Where did the wife think they came from? The stork brought them.
Evil such as this makes a good case for reinstating the auto-da-fe’. Find a big stadium, sell tickets, and auction of the privelege of lighting the match. At least this would help defray some of the cost of treating this woman and her children for the rest of their lives.
One would think that this woman would have self aborted. Impregnated by her father 7 times?! Maybe she’s prolife.
One would think that this woman would have self aborted. Impregnated by her father 7 times?! Maybe she’s prolife.
Posted by: Carla at April 28, 2008 10:10 PM
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Yeah! …And those kids in Darfur, maybe they’re anorexic!
Laura:
31 of the 53 girls aged 14-17 from that compound have either had children or are pregnant.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage “spiritual” marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect’s children.
Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.
Amanda,
You’re assuming the majority of women who have been raped want abortions and this often wasn’t the case…
Both sides of the debate typically accept the notion that women with a pregnancy resulting from a sexual assault would want an abortion and the abortion will some how help her heal or recover from the assault. “But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent chose against abortion.”(2)Having an abortion is a major life event which is almost always stressful and sometimes even traumatic. Will an abortion truly help her, or will it only cause further hurt? “In answering this question, it is helpful to begin by noting that many women report that their abortions felt like a degrading and brutal form of medical rape”(3). Abortion involves an often intimate and painful examination of a woman’s sexual organs. Also, once she is on the operating table, she must temporarily give up control of her body. This experiential association between abortion and sexual assault is very strong for many women. It is especially strong for women who have a prior history of sexual assault, whether or not she is presently pregnant as the result of an assault(4).
2. Mahkorn, “Pregnancy and Sexual Assault,” The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69
3. Francke, The Ambivalence of Abortion (New York: Random House, 1978) 84-95, 167.; Reardon, Aborted Women – Silent No More (Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1987), 51, 126.
4. 3. Zakus, “Adolescent Abortion Option,” Social Work in Health Care, 12(4):87 (1987).
SPRINGFIELD, IL September 7, 2006
Abortion creates more problems for rape and incest victims than it solves, according to the Ad Hoc Committee of Women Pregnant by Sexual Assault (WPSA).
In an effort to gain a public voice in the contentious abortion debate, the group has written a petition to Congress and state legislatures asking for public hearings at which women who’ve become pregnant through sexual assault can share their stories and address the real concerns that they have faced.
“In virtually every case, those people who claim to represent our interests have never taken the time to actually listen to us or to learn about our true circumstances, needs, and concerns,” they wrote. “We are deeply offended and dismayed each time our difficult circumstances are exploited for public consumption to promote the political agenda of others.”
The group is particularly concerned about the widespread misconception, even among people who generally oppose abortion, that sexual assault victims generally want or benefit from abortions.
For example, a statewide survey in South Dakota recently found a proposed abortion ban there would receive overwhelming support at the polls as long as it provided an exception for rape and incest cases. Without the exception, the ban is favored by only 39 percent, with 47 percent opposing it and 14 percent undecided.
However, the WPSA members say abortion does nothing to help women pregnant through sexual assault, and in many cases is actually detrimental to them.
“In many cases, we felt pressured to abort by family members, social workers, and doctors who insisted that abortion was the ‘best’ solution,” they wrote. “For many the abortion caused physical and emotional trauma equal to or exceeding the trauma of the sexual assault that our abortions were supposed to ‘cure.'”
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/sep/06090702.html
Abortion creates more problems for rape and incest victims than it solves, according to the Ad Hoc Committee of Women Pregnant by Sexual Assault (WPSA).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Women Pregnant by Sexual Assault, better known as the right hand of lying fraud David Reardon and the post office box known as The Elliot Institute:
http://www.afterabortion.info/news/WPSApetition.htm
I don’t see how in any way, this is related to the issue of abortion, let alone supporting the pro life view point.
If anything, this makes me think of how sad it is that these children were allowed to be born in the first place, and that if abortion were possible in this situation, it would have saved them from a life of utter misery.
Just my two cents.
I don’t see how in any way, this is related to the issue of abortion, let alone supporting the pro life view point.
If anything, this makes me think of how sad it is that these children were allowed to be born in the first place, and that if abortion were possible in this situation, it would have saved them from a life of utter misery.
Just my two cents.
So do you think forced abortion would solve our problems then, Tara?
I’m just curious…
http://tinyurl.com/5eycu2
There’s one great big cellar right there.
I think the father may wish he had never been born.
Tere,
As sick as the father was, I find your attitude just as sick. If those around these children support and love and care for them maybe they can find some happiness? We have a lot to learn from them…strength through suffering, a strong will, survival.
“Amanda,
You’re assuming the majority of women who have been raped want abortions and this often wasn’t the case…”
Please identify in my post where exactly I assumed anything??
I said nothing of the sort. Only that I find it quite scary that a woman who is pregnant without consent can have her bodily integrity robbed from her AGAIN by forcing her to give birth to a baby that is a result of rape or incest if she doesn’t WANT TO. If she wants to, more power to her. I made no assertion whatsoever about the “majority”.
.strength through suffering, a strong will, survival.
Yes, Carla, yes!!!
I was saying to my sister that I have very little faith in certain European/Canadian type “justice” systems to deal with this MONSTER appropriately. Sure enough I see this man can only get up to 15 years. What a joke. He says he wants to redeem himself. Why, because he got caught? Is`nt that convenient. In my opinion, he should do at least as long as the sentence he gave her. 24 years. I don`t care if he is 103. Fotunately for him, his rights will be protected, he will get to see sunlight and no one will be raping him. I have very little respect for some of these “justice” systems as they tend to make excuses for and enable criminals while sweeping victims under the rug.
I said nothing of the sort. Only that I find it quite scary that a woman who is pregnant without consent can have her bodily integrity robbed from her AGAIN by forcing her to give birth to a baby that is a result of rape or incest if she doesn’t WANT TO. If she wants to, more power to her. I made no assertion whatsoever about the “majority”.
No forcing is necessary, Amanda. It’s a natural process. Abortion is force. Pregnancy is natural. And the baby inside her doesn’t deserve to die for the sins of the father.
I’m not interested in hearing about women who were victims of INCEST and opted to have an abortion and now feel remorse, or those who didn’t and now are glad. These children that are born from incest, as we all know, have serious health problems. They also must live with the knowledge that their father is also their uncle, or grandfather, etc. Being born of a rape is one thing (A woman must always have the option in that case anyway because she DIDN’T PLAN OR CONSENT TO IT – WHY SHOULD HER LIFE BE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN BECAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSE’S DECISION)
But being born of incest goes deeper. The mother has to consider more than her own happiness. She has to consider what that child will have to live through for the rest of its life. Its not like finding out your child is going to be born disabled, or mentally retarded, this is obviously never a reason to end a pregnancy. (though I’m not a woman, so I feel like that’s not my choice anyway) Incest is such an inconceivable abomination. The mother has consider more than herself.
AND – BETHANY, who said:
“No forcing is necessary, Amanda. It’s a natural process. Abortion is force. Pregnancy is natural. And the baby inside her doesn’t deserve to die for the sins of the father.”
Abortion isn’t force if the mother chooses it. And why should the woman suffer because of the sins of the father? I understand and respect the opinions of pro-lifers. BUT people who insist on it being removed as an option for victims, you truly are missing something in your brain.
BETHANY, who said:
“No forcing is necessary, Amanda. It’s a natural process. Abortion is force. Pregnancy is natural. And the baby inside her doesn’t deserve to die for the sins of the father.”
Abortion isn’t force if the mother chooses it. And why should the woman suffer because of the sins of the father? I understand and respect the opinions of pro-lifers. BUT people who insist on it being removed as an option for victims, you truly are missing something in your brain.
BETHANY, who said:
“No forcing is necessary, Amanda. It’s a natural process. Abortion is force. Pregnancy is natural. And the baby inside her doesn’t deserve to die for the sins of the father.”
Abortion isn’t force if the mother chooses it. And why should the woman suffer because of the sins of the father? I understand and respect the opinions of pro-lifers. BUT people who insist on it being removed as an option for victims, you truly are missing something in your brain.
OH, AND BETHANY, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS FORCE?
RAPE.
OH, AND BETHANY, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS FORCE?
RAPE.
Of course rape is force. Who in the world suggested it was not?
Abortion isn’t force if the mother chooses it.
No, it still requires physical force to remove the baby from the body. That’s simply a basic fact.
And why should the woman suffer because of the sins of the father?
The woman has already suffered because of the sins of the father, after being raped. She needs counseling, love, sympathy, support, not abortion. Abortion doesn’t solve her problem.
I understand and respect the opinions of pro-lifers. BUT people who insist on it being removed as an option for victims, you truly are missing something in your brain.
I don’t see it like you. The unborn child is just as human to me as a born baby, and there is no reason that I can see that is good enough to kill a born baby. Why would I then find a good reason to kill an unborn baby?
I’m not interested in hearing about women who were victims of INCEST and opted to have an abortion and now feel remorse, or those who didn’t and now are glad. These children that are born from incest, as we all know, have serious health problems.
Would you advocate killing them today, as born children, to spare them future pain, since you know this is true? If not, why not? You clearly advocate killing them before they’re born for the same reasons.
They also must live with the knowledge that their father is also their uncle, or grandfather, etc. Being born of a rape is one thing (A woman must always have the option in that case anyway because she DIDN’T PLAN OR CONSENT TO IT – WHY SHOULD HER LIFE BE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN BECAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSE’S DECISION)
But being born of incest goes deeper. The mother has to consider more than her own happiness. She has to consider what that child will have to live through for the rest of its life.
Its not like finding out your child is going to be born disabled, or mentally retarded, this is obviously never a reason to end a pregnancy. (though I’m not a woman, so I feel like that’s not my choice anyway) Incest is such an inconceivable abomination. The mother has consider more than herself.
So are you saying you would you recommend forcing victims of incest to abort?
But being born of incest goes deeper. The mother has to consider more than her own happiness. She has to consider what that child will have to live through for the rest of its life. Its not like finding out your child is going to be born disabled, or mentally retarded, this is obviously never a reason to end a pregnancy. (though I’m not a woman, so I feel like that’s not my choice anyway) Incest is such an inconceivable abomination. The mother has consider more than herself.
also, why do you feel that a mother should consider more than herself in one situation, but not in another?
Yes, the mother has to consider more than herself. Like the life of her child, perhaps? However that child was conceived it is HERS as well.
Rachael, 12:56…great article. It is so sad that women who are raped, then abort, become victims once again by abortion.
“No forcing is necessary, Amanda. It’s a natural process. Abortion is force. Pregnancy is natural. And the baby inside her doesn’t deserve to die for the sins of the father.”
Uhh… perhaps I’m harping on semantics, but I don’t think theres ANYTHING “natural” about a pregnancy that is a result of a father having sex with his daughter or his daughters’ daughter who is also his daughter.
And it is most certainly “force” if the government forbids her from having an abortion if that is what she WANTS. An abortion is not force unless she doesn’t want one but is coerced or told to have one.
I once had a student who found out at the age of 16 that her grandfather was really her father and her sister was her mother. I know……it was all so twisted and I almost threw up every time I had to meet with the parents BUT I am thankful to have gotten to know such an awesome girl. She was a joy to teach. There are blessings to be found in the most sick situations.
Laura,
First of all, your link doesn’t work. Second of all, don’t all rape victims deserve to be heard, including those who’ve carried to term?
Laura,
First of all, your link doesn’t work. Second of all, regardless, don’t all rape victims deserve to be heard, including those who’ve chosen to carry to term?
Rachael,
I have a feeling that there are more voices longing to be heard…men who have been hurt by abortion, African Americans, women who conceived in rape/incest…it is a matter of time before we can no longer ignore their stories. I am trying to be patient.
I said nothing of the sort. Only that I find it quite scary that a woman who is pregnant without consent can have her bodily integrity robbed from her AGAIN by forcing her to give birth to a baby that is a result of rape or incest if she doesn’t WANT TO. If she wants to, more power to her. I made no assertion whatsoever about the “majority”.
Amanda, you’re still missing the point. We’ve listened to the voices of women who are victims of rape and incest, both who’ve carried to term and aborted, and the majority do not want abortion for the reasons cited above in the article, nor do they want to be pushed to have an abortion by well-meaning doctors, social-workers, family members, or friends who think it’s in their best interest, such as Tere above.
Since when was it decided that what is good for the majority is what is best for EVERYONE?
Unless “majority” = 100% (which it doesn’t), it should still be an available service for those who WANT it.
1973
Hmm, Let’s see…in the case of abortion rights, NARAL and the Feminist Majority Foundation seems to have spoken on the belief that the majority of women want abortion to be legal without restrictions, yet recent polls show this isn’t the case. They shut out dissenting women voices and dismiss those women who’s personal experience does not fit into their political agenda.
Amanda,
What do you have to say to Teres and other well-meaning individuals, such as doctors, social-workers, family members, or friends who think it’s in their best interest and encourage or pressure women to have an abortion in the case of rape or incest. Does it not violate their bodily integrety and invidual rights too? After all the right to choose includes the right to choose free of pressure or coercion and the right to choose abortion alternatives, does it not?
Rachael –
Those well-meaning individuals are doing the same thing your sidewalk counselors are doing – trying to encourage their viewpoint on to another person who may or may not agree.
If you think thats wrong, then its wrong from both ends.
Personally, I think that ALL people like to listen to their peers, loved ones, or people they respect and consider their thoughts before making a big decision. There’s a huge difference between advice and encouragement vs. coersion.
You can encourage life for a baby or death, Amanda.
The woman has already suffered because of the sins of the father, after being raped. She needs counseling, love, sympathy, support, not abortion. Abortion doesn’t solve her problem.
Look, I’ve been sexually assaulted, and the last thing I would want if a rape resulted in a pregnancy is to spend the next 9 months explaining to everyone that I got pregnant against my will, from someone I didn’t want to impregnate me. I don’t think a part of “healing” has to be telling the whole world how I got pregnant. Do you think they wouldn’t ask? Because they would.
I would imagine it would be even worse for incest survivors.
Here’s another statistic for you: If 80 percent of rape victims who get pregnant keep there children, that means about 6,400 women (every year) choose to have an abortion.
I’m appalled that you think you have the right to decide what’s best for that woman. Try a healthy dose of empathy every once in awhile.
I’m so sorry Edyt.
Out of love, concern and care for my friend who was raped and got pregnant, nobody asked.
I have every right to say what I think is best for an innocent baby.
That’s BS. If they didn’t ask her it’s because they already knew what happened. It doesn’t change the fact that people knew about a situation she probably didn’t want them knowing about.
And your “every right to say what I think is best” applies to the mother. Why don’t you tell her she should have a C-section too? Or where she should go to the doctor and how she should feel about her pregnancy?
If she aborts then she wouldn’t need a c-section, or any pregnancy advice from me. Problem solved, I guess, right?
sigh
Well, Carla, why not? If we force women to go through pregnancies it’s only logical that we should want the best for those unborn babies, so we should also force her to take certain types of vitamins and give birth a certain way. We may as well force her to not exercise vigorously and any other harmful things to the baby. And if she miscarries we should punish her for failure to keep the baby alive.
Always a pleasure Edyt. Have a nice afternoon.
how he could have incarcerated his victims for so long without his wife knowing….
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She knew. She couldnt have avoided it. But as is the case with most incest, she pretended to not know and chose to protect herself and her life style instead of her child.
Would killing her child make the incest go away? Would an abortion heal her? An abortion can never undo a rape or incest. It can only add to the trauma.
Posted by: Carla at April 28, 2008 3:17 PM
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It doesnt ‘add to the trauma’ if its what the woman wants. If a woman is pro choice before she is raped why would she *suddenly* become traumatized by ending an unwanted pregnancy? that’s one more lie from the antichoice side. Do you really imagine this woman could possibly have been any more traumatized by a wanted abortion than by being held captive in a hole in the ground and raped repeatedly by her own father and having 7 children by him?
I am comfortable with abortion being illegal and for ALL of us supporting women in VERY difficult circumstances. I am not a monster Amanda. I don’t think killing a baby is EVER going to solve anything. Choosing life is always going to be the right thing to do.
Thanks for picking my brain today. See? No name calling. A rational discussion. Thanks again. My cherubs just walked in from school. :)
Posted by: Carla at April 28, 2008 3:40 PM
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In my opinion that callous disregard for the welfare of the woman pregnant does make you a monster. Trying to pretend that a 12 year old rape victim has some obligation to continue a pregnancy regardless of what it does to her body or her mind makes my skin crawl.
I am not arguing she is traumatized. Not at all. Her father is a monster and I hope and pray that justice is served.
Oh, and I am also not arguing with you TR. Sorry.
And again. NOT getting into with you. I don’t give a rats’ what you think of me.
SHE DID CONTINUE HER PREGNANCIES THOUGH DIDN’T SHE?? HHHMMMMM….
Do you ,or anyone, know of any studies that have been done and what the precentage is of women who end up regretting the abortion or regretting having the baby? I haven’t looked….Yet.
Posted by: valerie at April 28, 2008 4:25 PM
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A study like that wouldnt really mean anything. Either continuing or ending a pregnancy can be the right or wrong choice depending on the woman. If a woman is against abortion and she is impregnated as a result of rape then she might very well be traumatized by an abortion. If a woman is already pro choice why would an abortion traumatize her? Abortion isnt “the best choice” for everyone. The insanity comes when some stranger is certain the decision should be left up to HER because SHE is ‘so traumatized’ by someone ELSES abortion and that the opinion of that other woman doesnt mean a thing.
However, the WPSA members say abortion does nothing to help women pregnant through sexual assault, and in many cases is actually detrimental to them.
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Of course they say that. They’re antiabortion to begin with.
Doug,
There’s one great big cellar right there.
Given their religiosity and the fact that they hold children in such great esteem (like trophies?) I doubt that abortion would be an issue here. Something tells me this group is more pro life than we are…lol.
Women Pregnant by Sexual Assault, better known as the right hand of lying fraud David Reardon and the post office box known as The Elliot Institute:
http://www.afterabortion.info/news/WPSApetition.htm
Posted by: Laura at April 29, 2008 1:54 AM
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Yup – the favorite antichoice fraud and charlattan – his *research techniques* are a laughing stock. He’s the one who tried to pretend that diagnosis of schitzophrenia and bioplar disorder where ‘proof of mental illness after an abortion’ when those conditions obviously existed before the woman ever got pregnant. The list goes on and on.
You know… I’m normally against cruel and unusual punishment… but for some reason jail time just doesn’t seem enough.
Same for these people.
Sometimes I just wish I believed in hell so I can imagine these people in it.
Posted by: Edyt at April 28, 2008 7:28 PM
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http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/warren_jeffs/1_index.html
Jeffs, the leader of the cult, is currently in jail for his part of the rape of a 14 year old girl whom he forced to marry her first cousin. He and his father before him set the cultural ‘norms’ for this cult. There are no birth certificates for the children born at the Texas compound. Birth certificates have to give the age of the mother when she gave birth and has to list the father. This is information they really dont want to be available.
I don’t see it like you. The unborn child is just as human to me as a born baby, and there is no reason that I can see that is good enough to kill a born baby. Why would I then find a good reason to kill an unborn baby?
Posted by: Bethany at April 29, 2008 10:13 AM
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Its not about YOU and thats the point. When YOU are the victim of rape or incest then YOU get to decide what you will do next. The problem comes when you make the assumption that some one else has some ‘responsibility’ to continue a pregnancy based on what YOU feel while you totally ignore how SHE feels about it. Its NOT about YOU if YOU arent the one pregnant.
Rachael,
I have a feeling that there are more voices longing to be heard…men who have been hurt by abortion, African Americans, women who conceived in rape/incest…it is a matter of time before we can no longer ignore their stories. I am trying to be patient.
Posted by: Carla at April 29, 2008 10:49 AM
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Youre more than happy to ignore the stories you dont agree with and dont want to hear.
I’m so sorry Edyt.
Out of love, concern and care for my friend who was raped and got pregnant, nobody asked.
I have every right to say what I think is best for an innocent baby.
Posted by: Carla at April 29, 2008 12:52 PM
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And I have every right to say that obsessing over oblivious nonviable tissue while totally disregarding the welfare and rights of the thinking feeling reasoning woman is disgusting, misogynistic and sickening.
Genetically unless there are some serious recessive genes the children should be ok. The psychological damage is quite another matter though. What these kids have had to endure is beyond my comprehension.
I am more than happy to ignore you TR.
Its not about YOU and thats the point. When YOU are the victim of rape or incest then YOU get to decide what you will do next. The problem comes when you make the assumption that some one else has some ‘responsibility’ to continue a pregnancy based on what YOU feel while you totally ignore how SHE feels about it. Its NOT about YOU if YOU arent the one pregnant.
And?
Child molestation is also not about me, but I still think I have the right as an American to speak out against it, TR.
Domestic abuse is not about me, but I think I have a right to speak out against it.
Etc etc etc.
Sorry, I think the idea that it has to be something that personally affects me in order for me to speak out against it is just baloney, plain and simple.
And I have every right to say that obsessing over oblivious nonviable tissue while totally disregarding the welfare and rights of the thinking feeling reasoning woman is disgusting, misogynistic and sickening.
When you actually find that pro-lifer who ignores the woman, let me know.
P.S. We need a little more than your assumption to go on there….
My volunteer work involves helping women on a day to day basis.
So does Carla’s…and so does pretty much every pro-lifer I know who is an activist in that area.
I can’t say I’ve seen the same help available for women from pro-abortion organizations.
Carla, 4:11 High five, sister!
However, the WPSA members say abortion does nothing to help women pregnant through sexual assault, and in many cases is actually detrimental to them.
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Of course they say that. They’re antiabortion to begin with.
Oh come on.
If they were anti-abortion to begin with, they wouldn’t have had an abortion.
Well, Carla, why not? If we force women to go through pregnancies it’s only logical that we should want the best for those unborn babies, so we should also force her to take certain types of vitamins and give birth a certain way. We may as well force her to not exercise vigorously and any other harmful things to the baby. And if she miscarries we should punish her for failure to keep the baby alive.
That is so unrealistic.
It’s like saying that keeping infanticide illegal will eventually lead to us forcing mothers to feed their babies vitamin filled formulas, and to make sure that they have exactly the right amount of exercise and sunshine; That they will be forced to breastfeed a certain way. That she will be forced not to co-sleep, etc. And if the baby dies, through no fault of her own, she will be charged with murder.
I guess by your logic we should make and keep infanticide , rape , child molestation, domestic abuse, shoplifting, and any other crime you can think of, legal, cause we sure wouldn’t want anyone to go to crazy extremes!
Given their religiosity and the fact that they hold children in such great esteem (like trophies?) I doubt that abortion would be an issue here. Something tells me this group is more pro life than we are…lol.
Heh – wouldn’t doubt it,MK. Gives me the chills…
this is disgusting!! what an ass!!
OMG this is horrible i cant belive somebody would be so vile! i feel so bad for this mans daughter and her children for this cruel abuse they had to go through! it must have been really terrible for the three “adopted” children living w/ this man, when they found out about they’re mother and siblings! its horrible!
Carla,
I was giving my opinion, no need to insult me.
Bethany,
My name is Tere, not Tara, and I said NOTHING about forced abortion.
Both of you:
Grow up and get off your high horse.
She knew. She couldnt have avoided it. But as is the case with most incest, she pretended to not know and chose to protect herself and her life style instead of her child.
Posted by: TexasRed at April 29, 2008 3:22 PM
TR, at least she wasn’t selfish. You know, since she chose to have kids, unlike those childless jerk pro-choicers.
Jeffs, the leader of the cult, is currently in jail for his part of the rape of a 14 year old girl whom he forced to marry her first cousin. He and his father before him set the cultural ‘norms’ for this cult. There are no birth certificates for the children born at the Texas compound. Birth certificates have to give the age of the mother when she gave birth and has to list the father. This is information they really dont want to be available.
I can only hope that while he’s in jail, some real justice is done to him by his cellmates … I’ve heard they don’t take kindly to rapists and child molesters.
P.S. Anyone else think it’s about time we made rape/sexual assault a greater crime than nonviolent drug offenses? I’m really sick of hearing about how they get out of jail in 5-15 years, while drug addicts (who would probably do well with rehab and job training) stay in for 20-30.
Edyt:2:26: P.S. Anyone else think it’s about time we made rape/sexual assault a greater crime than nonviolent drug offenses? I’m really sick of hearing about how they get out of jail in 5-15 years, while drug addicts (who would probably do well with rehab and job training) stay in for 20-30.
Yes, I think non-violent drug offenders need rehab and job training and not a free bed and meals for “x” years. Persons convicted of rape/sexual assault deserve longer convictions.
Bethany,
My name is Tere, not Tara, and I said NOTHING about forced abortion.
I’m sorry, Tere, I thought it said Tara.
And I never claimed you did say anything about forced abortion. Your post implied that you felt this would be a solution. Let me show you your post again:
“If anything, this makes me think of how sad it is that these children were allowed to be born in the first place, and that if abortion were possible in this situation, it would have saved them from a life of utter misery“.
The logical implication here is that you support forced abortions. Number one, because you implied that ALLOWING these children to be born was wrong. (the opposite of this would be forcing them NOT to be born, wouldn’t it?)
Number two, because you said that if abortion were possible in this situation ,it would have saved them from a life of utter misery.
Well, the woman obviously delivered them to term, and there is no reason to assume that she desired abortion. You only assume that. If she had desired to carry to term, would you tell her she was wrong to do so?
It’s a logical question, based on your obvious implications, Tere. I’d really appreciate an answer. Would you support forced abortions in the case of incest?
TR, at least she wasn’t selfish. You know, since she chose to have kids, unlike those childless jerk pro-choicers.
That is a strawman, Edyt.
Choosing to have kids doesn’t automatically make you unselfish. Pro-lifers have never implied that it does. There are plenty of selfish and jerk parents to go around.
Tere,
I am sorry if you think I insulted you. I took offense to you saying how sad that those children were allowed to be born in the first place. Your statement gave me chills.
The father will soon wish he had never been born. There are 3 children that are probably THRILLED to be alive today…..seeing the sun for the very first time.
P.S. Anyone else think it’s about time we made rape/sexual assault a greater crime than nonviolent drug offenses? I’m really sick of hearing about how they get out of jail in 5-15 years, while drug addicts (who would probably do well with rehab and job training) stay in for 20-30.
I agree Edyt, I think that’s sick and disgusting and just plain wrong that drug addicts get more time in jail than rapists and pedophiles. I have expressed that to my husband on multiple occasions (mostly after watching “to catch a predator”- so many of those men, even the ones who are caught in the act, don’t even end up going to prison at all!!)
I completely agree with your sentiments here.
Hhhmmmm…maybe this father should be sentenced to stay in the bunker that he built, to live out the last of his days. Sick, sick, sick man.
I am more than happy to ignore you TR.
Posted by: Carla at April 29, 2008 4:11 PM
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Stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and whine ‘lalalala I cant hear you’
Of course they say that. They’re antiabortion to begin with.
Oh come on.
If they were anti-abortion to begin with, they wouldn’t have had an abortion.
Posted by: Bethany at April 29, 2008 4:19 PM
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Would you like to tell me where it said the members of WPSA had all had abortions?
And arent there several antichoicers who post here who have had abortions themselves?
Would you like to tell me where it said the members of WPSA had all had abortions?
And arent there several antichoicers who post here who have had abortions themselves?
I’m sorry, TR, I misunderstood your point then about the WPSA.
However, in answer to your second question, yes, there are many pro-lifers who have had abortions, and not a single one of them was truly pro-life before the abortion.
how tupid just 24 yr punishment for dat gay guy
he shld be locked up 4 da rest of hz lyf and n dat place der should be no light insects and all type of horrible stuff
it should be like a grave, extremely small and then afta 24 yrz if he z still alive den brn hm 2 death
how tupid just 24 yr punishment for dat gay guy
he shld be locked up 4 da rest of hz lyf and n dat place der should be no light insects and all type of horrible stuff
it should be like a grave, extremely small and then afta 24 yrz if he z still alive den burn hm 2 death
I have worked for WAPA a few times.
I just would like to put out a thought.
Many “Christians” are prolife.
If you believe in God you believe in Heaven, so why not send an unwanted baby to heaven instead of giving birth to an unwanted child.
Losing a loved one or a family member can really take a toll on people, yes. But with the given circumstances and what his daughter went through, not to mention what her kids went through, this is the worst possible thing that can happen to them or for that matter the worse possible thing that one human being can do to another. It just comes to show that the people you know and/or see on a daily basis you really don’t have any idea whats going on behind their doors..
It’s a really, really sick and deranged topic.
I saw this poor girl on the TV show called “The Longest Night”. At first i was not interested but then i started hearing of this man named Joseph then about what he does. When i finished seeing the show I was left in shock. Thoughts about that innocent girl that did not deserve to get sexually abused at age 11 consumed me. Yet that bastered Joseph Fritzl has no answer to why he REALLY put his daughter there than just for the Incest and raip. He destroyed that her childhood completly , his daughter’s childhood. I pray that Joseph Fritzl dies, and when he dies he burns in HELL where he should be for all he has done