(Prolifer)ations 5/8/08
by JivinJ
The center will be a highly visible symbol of the region’s commitment to stem cell research, and a place where the taxpayers footing the bill can see what progress their money has fueled, said Dr. Edward Holmes, the consortium’s president and formerly head of UCSD’s medical school.
If I was a CA taxpayer, I’d be thinking: We were promised cures but all we got for our $6 billion dollars was a bunch of fancy buildings….
The onus is on those who claim that C-484 can be used to “police” and “punish” pregnant women to prove how. Given they are unable to do this, then intellectual honesty and integrity demand that they put an immediate end to their campaign of fear.
The Elizabeth House program is simple: It’s for homeless adolescent girls from 16 to 20 who have decided to keep their babies — and who want to set personal goals, particularly educational ambitions. The group usually takes in young women during their second trimesters, after they have decided to become parents. They can stay in the program two to three years.
But remember according to some pro-choicers, pro-lifers’ concern for life only extends to birth.
Hite told police she had tried to get an abortion in Anchorage but a women’s health clinic would not perform the procedure because she was 15 1/2 weeks pregnant, the affidavit says. Alaska law limits abortions to the first 14 weeks of pregnancy.
Huh? Not according to Alaska’s abortion statistics. Alaska even gets an “A-“ from NARAL. I’m guessing the “women’s health clinic” is Planned Parenthood which offers surgical abortion through the end of the 13th week.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Most media accounts about stem cell research do not bother to distinguish between embryonic stem cells and adult stem cells. Why the huge investment in the former when only the latter has given us any successes? Without even touching on the moral dimensions of the issue, it seems an incredibly irresponsible use of taxpayer funds to go down this road when even proponents of embryonic stem cell research say we are years away from any potential breakthroughs.
ASCR has given us TREATMENTS- ESCR could give us cures. This is the primary difference.
Also, the problem with ESC research is that it’s a young science and also an extremely complex one and thus no miracle cures have yet come about, but that doesn’t mean we should give up on it by any means.
This sound like a good idea?
“Hey, why are you trying to forge metal? We have perfectly good pointy rocks!”
“Hey, stop messing around with iron, we all know bronze works just fine.”
“Stop playing with that saltpeter, we have perfectly good bows and arrows!!”
The Minnesota House and Senate passed bills that allows state-funds to go towards ESCR…probably due to a ton of lobbying from the U which has a fairly large ESCR program.
reposting here, for the most prayers…
Guys I need some really BIG TIME prayers. My cousin, a sweet, sweet girl (she lived with us for awhile when she was a teenager) has 2 daughters, 12 and 9. She’s been going to school to be a nurse and graduates next Saturday. Last October, (some of you may remember this)her husband had a stroke, after which blood clots were floating around and there was nothing they could do. We’d all but picked out the coffin for him. After a really strange miracle, (involving A LOT of nuns and Our Lady of Frachou) he was given a clean bill of health. A week ago he fainted, and the tests have just come back…he has Leukemia AND Bone Cancer…Joe is a really great guy. Has five brothers and they all play in a band…The Dooley Brothers. Some of you (from the Chicago Area) may have heard of them. They’ve been around forever.
Anywho, PLEASE, PLEASE, pray.
Erin,
It’s funny that you chose instruments of death for your illustration.
And yes, quite frankly, I wish we would have stuck with pointy rock :)
Lol, metal, iron, and gunpowder all have very constructive uses, too, ya know!
We’d be out a TON of technology, and not just weaponry, if we didn’t have those inventions. No fireworks on the 4th of July. No cars. No printing press. No computers.
I dunno about you, but I like living in the now!
ESCR will NEVER produce a cure. What happens when there’s not an excess “supply” to do “research” on? Will poor women be exploited for their eggs? Yes!
Adult Stem Cells (including umbilical cord blood) are what are going to provide the treatments and cures.
ESCR is not.
‘Elizabeth House’ is a great idea. I hope more of these are opened around the country.
No John McD.
No John L.
No Laura.
No Jess.
No JLM.
No Bethany.
No J Keller.
No Lyssie.
No Midnite.
No Doug.
What the heck is goin’ on! Where is my family????
Oh, and mk, your cousin’s husband is in my prayers!
Ahhhh but Erin,
When people have to die to further science, it’s just not worth it. Especially, when there is a way to do the same things, without ending any lives.
What if we found out that tomorrow we could cure every disease known to man, by farming 5 year olds. Factorys of kindergarteners, that when killed on their 5th birthday would cure all sickness. Would you do it? What if you could do the same thing by simply using their fingernail clippings. Wouldn’t you say it was just a wee bit unethical to choose killing them?
Thank you so much Liz…
@MK: I know Lyssie and Midnite are busy with finals, they’ll be back soon enough. :)
mk,
Joe and family will be a special intention in our family rosary tonight.
The Elizabeth House is an answer to prayers and an awesome thing for the Church to do for these young mothers. Truly living the mission of Jesus.
Lots of people died before the polio vaccine was perfected, and many, MANY people died before anesthesia was even a quarter of what it is today. Marie Curie, anyone?
Hey MK,
What am I the ugly forgotten step sister?
Just kidding.
I said a prayer for your cousin, her husband and her family.
I am so sorry.
Jill, you wrote: “If I was a CA taxpayer, I’d be thinking: We were promised cures but all we got for our $6 billion dollars was a bunch of fancy buildings. ”
Maybe if you were a stupid CA taxpayer.
LizfromNebraska, you wrote: “ESCR will NEVER produce a cure. ”
You don’t know that. And even if you did, ESCR would still be important as basic research. Knowledge of the human body for its own sake.
Sometime this millenium, humans will design their offspring.
Maybe if you were a stupid CA taxpayer.
Posted by: SoMG at May 8, 2008 11:38 PM
SOMG, you post just to call someone stupid. That is not a very convincing and not a very intelligent argument. Is that the mindset of an abortionist? To get your jollies by abusing someone else.
Sometime this millenium, humans will design their offspring.
Posted by: SoMG at May 8, 2008 11:42 PM
SOMG, I am sorry to say you may be somewhat right about this. Some people already pick their geneolgy from a clinic. Another attack on the traditional family. It may also eventually lead to a single disease/mutation that could wipe out the entore line of genetically engineered humans. Have you thought about that SOMG?
MK, i wish the best for your cousin and her husband. what a terrible ordeal they’re facing. Although my prayers wouldn’t be much help, I will send along my best wishes and hopes that everything works out for you and for them.
your friend
Hal
Hal,
Actually, a prayer from you would be worth a thousand prayers from me. God hearing from you is exactly the kind of thing that produces miracles. But I’ll gladly accept your thoughts. Thanks.
Truthseeker,
Thank you.
Sandy,
I didn’t mention you because you’ve been on lately. But those other guys have just plum disappeared. John McD just left me. I’m filing for divorce on abandonment charges. And thank you so much for the prayers.
Erin,
Lots of people died before the polio vaccine was perfected, and many, MANY people died before anesthesia was even a quarter of what it is today. Marie Curie, anyone?
And lots of people die today for all kinds of reasons. The point is, finding a cure for polio did not involve “killing” people. So you didn’t answer my question about killing kindergarteners.
Hi MK,
Praying for you and yours.
God Bless!!
MK:
Do you know what the prognosis is yet? That may sound like a dumb question but I have a good childhood friend who was diagnosed with stage 4 bone cancer just before Christmas 2006. He is farmer so, in some ways it’s not surprising. He was going for bone scans every 2 years and in between that time they figure he developed prostate cancer which then spread. He is still alive today and doing reasonably well.
My understanding is that while bone cancer cannot be cured, it can be treated and managed with drugs and chemo to give him a few more years. My friend has EIGHT children and a dairy farm with a stay-at-home wife. So you can imagine how this has affected their lives.
You can add my name to the list of prayer warriors.
God bless
Thank you Carla. Very Much.
Erin, 6:22p, said: “ASCR has given us TREATMENTS- ESCR could give us cures. This is the primary difference.”
Well, that’s a new, interesting soundbite… and baloney.
One of my best friends has a 21-year-old son, Joey, who had leukemia as a child. He’s cured, thanks to bone marrow (read: “adult stem cell”) transplants.
That’s just 1 example in response to your rubbish, Erin.
The fact is, adult stem cells have provided a multitude of treatments and cures.
You know human embryonic stem cells have not. But I don’t even care if they did. Using esc’s for treatment or cures would still kill other humans in the process, so they’re simply out of bounds.
What is your fixation with them?
Patricia,
Thank you for that hope. No, we don’t really know anything yet. Waiting for more results.
And thank you the prayers. I’m afraid prayer is all we have right now.
Hehe…It’s so ironic we are talking about ESCR and ASC..I’m doing my persuasive speech on it today! I didn’t practice it as much so it might suck a little, but I think it will be good! Pray for me too!
MK,
Can we start another Novena? I posted this question on another thread. I loved paricitpating in the last one!!!
MK,
If prayer is all we have, we are in good hands. Indeed. Rest in His love and peace.
I know you’ve got my e-mail from the previous one Novena mk. Count me in on the next one too.
Sandy and TS,
You’ve got it. I think sometime next week. Sound good?
Let’s do it! Me and the baby are in!
Jill- my fixation is that a non-religious government is allowing religious fanaticism to interfere with vital scientific progress.
It PISSES ME OFF.
MK- you’re in a burning building. You can save a petri dish with an embryo in it or a kindergartener. Which are you going to choose?
The assumption that a frozen embryo and a kindergartener are EXACTLY the same is just absurd.
ASCR has important uses. I agree. But the degree of uses that we can get from ESCR are phenomenal. If we can learn how to control their multiplication, we could rejuvenate tissue, something that ASCR CANNOT do, no matter how much you want to pretend it can. The reason we haven’t seen any results from it thus far is because A, it’s a YOUNG SCIENCE. When Copernicus started observing space, we didn’t automatically get to the moon or develop the Hubble telescope. But it got there eventually. B, it’s because of ridiculous restrictions on the research. You can’t give a chemist a toy chemistry set and expect results from nothing but baking powder and vinegar, which is pretty much what researchers have at this point.
Sorry to interrupt here but the Duggars are pregnant with their 18th baby! Happy Mother’s Day!!
It can be amorally acceptable choice to save either the child or an embryo. What one needs to keep in mind is that saving anyone from a burning building is a supererogatory work, and hence in no way has any bearing on personhood. One argument to be made to save the child is that the child will experience pain and suffering in the fire. Also, one would like to save the person who has a better chance of surviving. Again, keep in mind that these considerations do NOT take away from the humanity of the embryo. We could turn the question around and say “who would you save in a burning fire? a child or a 90 year old man?” Well, probably the child because he has a better chance of living longer, but that in no way takes away from the humanity of the old man. Or what about one child vs. ten 90-year olds? Is the life of a child worth more than the lives of ten 90-year olds? It’s a prudential judgment, and because you are doing an extra-ordinary work that is not required of you, either choice is a good moral choice.
The argument could also be made for saving the embryo. Suppose after you save the embryo, it is implanted, and 20 years later after he is born, he throws you a celebration for having saved him in the fire. Would he not be justified? Was it not HIM that you saved in that fire? Indeed it was.
So Ellen Goodman’s little fire scenario really doesn’t prove anything. The humanity of the embryo is clear from science, the only question that remains is philosophical. For an irrefutable defense of the humanity of the embryo, I suggest the book “Embryo” by Robert George and Christopher Tollefsen. They build up its humanity from a purely secular, scientific, and philosophical point of view. The only time that God or religion is mentioned in the book is in the introduction to say that God or religion will not be used for the rest of the book. A MUST for everyone.
“It can be amorally acceptable choice”
Oops! Above should read “It can be a morally acceptable choice…”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14925729/
http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/287/2/H471?maxtoshow=&HITS=&hits=&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=embryonic+stem+cells&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1117057367538_4023&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=1
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11212
Hey Bobby – I just got Embryo and diving in – excellent!
What position would you say Erin is arguing from?
Embryo technology, as opposed to science? Looks like terms need to be clarified.
Erin- your mother and your little sister are in a broken building that is on fire, you only have time enough to save one of them, which one will you save?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14925729/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/23/AR2008042302329.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18440532?dopt=Abstract
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111124158.htm
Jill, I’m trying to submit a post with a bunch of links but it says something about a ‘header’ and won’t post it.
Frankly, I think if you’re in a burning building, and you grab a petri dish instead of a screaming, thinking, feeling, sobbing 5 year old…there’s something wrong with you. Very, very wrong.
Hey Chris. You’ll love the book! In the first few (??) chapters, they quote a man named Father Nic Austriaco. Father Nic was the one who recommended me this book before it came out :)
“Frankly, I think if you’re in a burning building, and you grab a petri dish instead of a screaming, thinking, feeling, sobbing 5 year old…there’s something wrong with you. Very, very wrong.”
Erin, I understand what you’re sating here. But you’re arguing from emotion, from the way things look and seem. I want to argue from the point of view of science and reason.
So you’re really, honestly going to tell me that an embryo in a petri dish is just as much of a person as a 5 year old child?
Science and reason says that an embryo can’t feel pain. That in itself should be a good enough reason. I would HAPPILY allow destruction of multiple oblivious embryos to cure my suffering grandfather right now. In a heartbeat. Heck, if I had any practical laboratory knowledge, I’d do it myself.
Also, Jill, or any mods, this is what comes up when I try to post links:
“Publish error in template ‘Comment Response’: Error in tag: Can’t find included template module ‘Header'”
“Science and reason says that an embryo can’t feel pain.”
So that is what determines personhood?
Bobby- no. Consciousness does.
So what does the pain part have to do with anything?
ESCR has produced nothing but tumors in the animal experiments. There’s no guarantee that won’t happen in humans. It could be a lot worse – it could kill a person who was trying to get a cure.
Again I ask: what happens if the excess supply of embryos runs out? What then? Poor women will be exploited for their eggs, that’s what will happen.
And what determines consciousness? What kind of scientific or physical test can we perform with someone to determine in they are conscience?
Liz- I just explained that they need a way to control the multiplication of ESCs. With modern science, however, it is completely possible.
Grrr…someone help me so I can post these links!
(The gist of them is that infertile couples support use of their extra embryos for research, that ASCR has no use in cardiac tissue, and that Parkinson’s in primates has been cured with ESCR)
EEG, Bobby.
Also, Liz, that’s why we’ll probably clone the embryos.
So you’re against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions?
Bobby- bodily autonomy, cherub. I’m against aborting after the point of viability, though, yes. Personally, I consider that to be 24 weeks.
Wait, but if the woman has bodily autonomy, how can you tell her she can’t do what she wishes with her body at 30 weeks?
Because at that point labor could be induced for almost as little trouble as an abortion.
Jill, a bone marrow transplant is not a cure. A cure implies that the disease won’t come back.
Cancer is a chronic illness, thus, when people say the cancer patient is in remission, they mean the disease is absent but there is a possibility it will return. That is why a bone marrow transplant is a treatment and not a cure. We have yet to find a cure for cancer.
Feel free to disagree, but my mother had leukemia and a bone marrow transplant as well, and the doctor was very clear about the fact that it was not a cure. Every day she has the possibility of the cancer coming back.
MK, my best wishes for your friend and his family.
I agree, but what if she doesn’t want the child nor does she want the child to be given up for adoption?
:-P I dunno, Bobby. You either keep it or give it away. There’s not really a middle ground. Heck, for all I care, she never has to even see it.
I saw this really messed up Law and Order SVU the other night about fake abortion clinics, where PL people masqueraded as abortionists and his staff and lied to their patients until they were past the legal boundary. It was MESSED UP.
OK Erin, good talkin to you. Done with exams, ehh? In your face, GSU!
MK- you’re in a burning building. You can save a petri dish with an embryo in it or a kindergartener. Which are you going to choose?
Posted by Erin at May 9, 2008 10:58 AM
Erin, I save the kindergartener first. But give me the choice between a pro-lifer and a pro-abort, I would definitely save the person who respected the sanctity of life first.
Oops, wait a sec… are you done with exams, Erin? Earlier I thought I read that in your fb status, but now I see that that was someone else’s status but I thought it was yours…
Erin,
If you were in a burning building and could only save one of a set of twins which would you save?
That question is ludicrous. I’d save which ever one I could. Probably whoever was nearest…easiet…most likely to make it.
To you there is a difference between an embryo and a a 5 year old. To me, there isn’t. Except in my biased perceptions.
Bobby, I would love to read “Embryo”.
My kids are pooling their money to put it on my Chapters gift card. Can’t wait to order those books and Embryo will be one!
Very good posts about the fire scenario both Bobby and Chris.
I always learn something from them. I have a few of Chris’ posts save in a word doc.He had a debate with Doug which unfortunately, it appears Doug never answered a critical question.
I waited and waited, but alas, no Doug…..
Hahaha, Bobby. I’m actually not at GSU anymore, I’m working towards a court reporting certification now, and we go with a quarter system, so no summer break for me :-(
mk, next week sounds good. I’ll look out for your email
Because at that point labor could be induced for almost as little trouble as an abortion.
Posted by: Erin at May 9, 2008 12:25 PM
How about maybe because it’s a baby, not a blob!
Erin said Science and reason says that an embryo can’t feel pain.
Erin – it kind of looks like you’re arguing a moral-dualism to me.
The simple way to visualize what you’re saying is a bell curve – less human substance-functionality means less value of the person, until it reaches a point where it’s “normal”, and then diminishes later on if there is a disease or incident that causes a degeneration or dying to occur at a non-normal rate.
Is this an accurate description of what you are arguing in relation to the sense of a moral being?
“Very good posts about the fire scenario both Bobby”
The idea was taken right from George’s book. Hands down that book has THE best refutation of the fire scenario. It goes into much more detail and is much more eloquently written than what I wrote. God love you.
Forgiveness starts with repentance and it will set you free, Erin.
Bobby Bambino @ 1:08 PM
Actually it would be interesting for Erin to meet Noah and tell his parents that he wasn’t worth saving. ;-)
Erin,
Suppose you’re in a fire and there are 5 year old twins. You could only save one. Which one would you save? You never answered.
I just bought “Embryo”. I haven’t read anything but technical manuals for work or Scriture for years. I am looking forward to reading this book though. Thanks for the tip Bobby.
Excellent, TS. You’ll learn a TON! I should let you know, though, that the main thrust of the authors in demonstrating the humanity and full personhood of the embryo (zygote, really) because they have ESCR in mind. So since it isn’t a book about abortion per se, the bodily autonomy argument is not addressed. But we shouldn’t expect it to, I suppose.
“Hey, stop messing around with iron, we all know bronze works just fine.”
Did the advancement of working with iron involve the intentional killing of human beings?
“Jill- my fixation is that a non-religious government is allowing religious fanaticism to interfere with vital scientific progress.”
Oh, good! I haven’t gotten to correct somebody on this in at least three days!
Erin, you don’t need to be a “religious fanatic” in order to have a problem with the destruction of embryonic human beings. In fact, you need not even believe in a higher power at all.
Erin: “Science and reason says that an embryo can’t feel pain.”
Bobby: “So that is what determines personhood?”
Erin: “Bobby- no. Consciousness does.”
Ah, no, it doesn’t. No science textbook suggests that consciousness is a requisite for being a person.
What the heck is goin’ on! Where is my family????
Bless you, MK – what a sweetheart you are.
I was crying, literally, when I read John McD’s post saying he was going. Whoa – he said no even to e-mail…. Who knows, but I will certainly try to contact him in the future. He mentioned dreaming of flying; I was thinking of taking him up in a balloon. Then he said he was severely afraid of heights….
My wife has never seen Canada, and some year we may go across it – I’d plan to stop in and see John.
I imagine that Laura won’t be gone forever, and you know Bethany will be around. Jess – another unique person here on Jill’s blog, like John M, I miss her too.
I guess if I have a “what the heck is going on here?” feeling it relates to Midnite. Sure hope she’s okay and going along….
Erin: “Science and reason says that an embryo can’t feel pain.”
Bobby: “So that is what determines personhood?”
Erin: “Bobby – no. Consciousness does.”
BMMG: Ah, no, it doesn’t. No science textbook suggests that consciousness is a requisite for being a person.
She’s not quoting from a textbook, Dude. She identifies with many of the same things that vast numbers of people do, including me. It’s not merely being “human” that make us people – there are any number of “unique” species on earth, etc. What makes us people are our brains, with a certain amount of development, function, and connection with the rest of the nervous system.
If you want “textbook,” then you already know what the law is, I figure. That’s not the argument.
She’s not quoting from a textbook, Dude.
Posted by: Doug at May 12, 2008 12:12 AM
Doug, science is supposed to be provable through repeatable experiment. You know, like theory from textbooks and experiments in labs. You can’t even come close to provingconsciousness exists or doesn’t exist in a fetus and that is why you fall back on the law as your textbook.
Honestly, Truthseeker…. I don’t “fall back” on the law – either one agrees with it, or not, in varying degrees.
There is no “proving consciousness doesn’t exist” as you see it, since you’re asking for the proof of a negative. You may imagine there is consciousness, sure, but if it’s not provable to be anything more than imaginary then you shouldn’t be surprised at people not taking it all that seriously, nor at them thinking it silly to base public policy on it.
Medical technology has long been able to detect brainwaves and and we know the states of consciousness associated with them.
Anyway, Erin wasn’t talking about the law or about textbooks, and I think that should have been obvious.
Doug,
I understand why we believe differently on his issue. I believe there is a spiritual existense of consciousness which can and does exist even outside of our bodies. You believe there is no existense outside our bodies/brain activity. So you define consciousness as a point where your brain inside your body can perceive certain stimuli that exist when brain activity occurs. IMHO it is intellectually dishonest to preclude existence of consciousness outside of said brain activity just because you can perceive brain activity when a person performs certain functions.
Well said, TS, but I don’t “preclude” it. There may be any number of things extant that I or we don’t know of, (things that cannot be proven to be non-existent, of course). I do think it’s often “wishful thinking” on people’s parts, but there too I’m not stating that it’s impossible that so-and-so exists. Still, lack of proof is lack of proof, and IMO it’s not suitable to make public policy on that which cannot be proven to be more than imaginary.
Still, lack of proof is lack of proof, and IMO it’s not suitable to make public policy on that which cannot be proven to be more than imaginary.
As you know, there’s much more to this than public policy! We’re talking the eternal life of your soul. God’s not going to look you in the eye (or any of us) at the end of the world and say, “you didn’t acknowledge Me, but you sure were fair not to push the abortion issue on anyone, so come on in and join us”!
Janet, maybe, maybe not….
Doug: “She’s not quoting from a textbook, Dude. She identifies with many of the same things that vast numbers of people do, including me.”
And there we have it!
We’re always hearing that the pro-abortion, pro-ESCR side is the one with scientific fact in its favor, and that the other side is rooted in mere religious ideology. But when presented with scientific fact, pro-ESCR people say that they don’t really CARE what science textbooks say, that they’d rather fall back on touchy-feely, arbitrarily determined, self-serving definitions for what it means to be a human being.
Scientific fact is extremely inconvenient to the pro-ESCR lobby, and so they simply appoint themselves as the deciders for who is and who is not a human being. Human history is littered with tragic examples of people doing precisely that.
The one positive is that Doug has at least admitted that they’re not the least bit interested in scientific fact, when it comes down to it.