Jivin J’s Life Links 9-23-10
by JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat
- Abortionist Stephen Brigham is now accused of violating the standards of care for at least 2 more patients. Here are some more details about Brigham’s abortion of a 33-week child with Down Syndrome:
In early August, Brigham performed an abortion for a 35-year-old Canadian who was 33 weeks pregnant, the documents show. The fetus had Down syndrome but was otherwise viable…..
The procedure on the Canadian patient “seriously violated medical standard of care and, to my knowledge, is not sanctioned by any statute or regulation,” Dr. Gary Brickner wrote in an expert opinion to the medical board. He noted that the woman’s pregnancy “did not involve a fetus with a lethal defect or a condition dangerous to the mother’s health.”
- At the Abortioneers blog, “anti-anti” has a post entitled “Deception” in which she relates a story about how she called a CPC and lied about possibly being pregnant. The CPC does nothing deceptive. They say they offer free pregnancy tests, don’t have a doctor on staff and could give her information at the center. She somehow surmises that because the CPC wouldn’t give her medical information over the phone that “they wanted me to come in so they could hold me hostage and force feed me propaganda.””Anti-anti” then notes the website of a CPC in MI which she calls “*sorta* honest.” So who’s being deceptive?
- At Feministe, a guest blogger posts a video by the Center for Reproductive Rights about the Hyde Amendment. Besides a fundraising gimmick, I don’t see the point of the video. Yes, when tax dollars don’t pay for elective abortions, women who are poor and want elective abortions have to pay for the abortion themselves. They don’t like this. Tell us something that isn’t obvious. I guess it does note that the federal government only paid for 85 abortions in 2006 (Hyde doesn’t restrict funding for abortions because of rape, incest or life of the mother).
Sep.23, 2010 1:00 pm |
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Who shall be the Lila Rose and go undercover and film the deceptive practices of CPC’s?
Get a move on, proaborts.
33 weeks? A woman went in for an abortion at 33 weeks? She was pregnant all that time and couldn’t wait a few more days, 21 days at the most? Sick.
I was thinking the same thing, ninek. And her baby’s only “fault” was having Down Syndrome…an otherwise HEALTHY baby. She could have had that baby and given him/her to someone who would consider him/her a BLESSING.
So, if women are too ashamed to carry a baby and then make adoption arrangments, how did this 33 weeks pregnant woman (and I mean this to other late term mothers who want to kill their children), how did she intend to go back to her life and explain to everyone where her baby went??? If adoption is not an option, do you really tell your friends and neighbors who’ve already seen you pregnant, that you paid someone to kill him or her? That is really easier than adoption? Really?
ninek- I’ve had it come up a number of times where patients will tell friends and families that “the baby died” or “I lost the baby” and then indicate that it’s too painful to further discuss. That type of statement tends to generate a lot of sympathy without too much prying for specific details.
This really gets to me , because my daughter was born- HEALTHY- at 33 weeks.
Wow, Pamela. I was a preemie, born before my 30th week. So I think that’s why this hits so close to home. My dad hovered over my incubator every chance he got. When they brought me home, my mom put her wedding ring on my wrist like a bracelet and had to make my diapers because they didn’t sell small ones in those days. I treasure those stories, how much my parents loved me. I was so, so blessed.
And we’re BLESSED to have you, ninek! :D
I’d like to see evidence that CPCs actually give out statistics like that, that 30% of women who have abortions die from them. It’s crazy to think anyone would believe a statistic like that, and I find it hard to believe any CPC would think women gullible enough to believe that.
Although, even if CPCs did make up wacky statistics, how is that any better than abortion clinics blatantly lying to women about fetal development? Heartbeat at nine weeks’ gestation, my fanny.
Carla, while I can’t speak for these ‘pro-aborts’ you mention, I can speak as a pro-choice person.
I haven’t found undercover film as yet but there is certainly a lot of first hand reports of the deceptive practices conducted by CPC’s. (Of course there is also the deception perpetrated by people such as Lila Rose in the lies told to PP’s plus the fact that it is quite easy to ‘amend’ footage and it’s content).
This one is quite interesting:
http://www.universitychronicle.com/opinions/religious-backed-pregnancy-resource-centers-are-problematic-1.1775677
and to highlight from the article:
‘A 2006 study by the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform found that 20 out of 23 CPCs surveyed provided false or misleading information about abortion (87 percent!).
These centers were telling women that abortion causes breast cancer, infertility and depression, all of which are not true. These CPCs are government funded to tell lies and spread mistruths. Since 2001, CPCs have gotten more than $30 million in federal funding’
as is this one (which you will of course harrumph over because it’s by feminists):
http://www.feministcampus.org/act/cpc/default.asp
There is much more out there demonstrating the lies and deceptions conducted by CPC’s. But I suppose the bottom line is that CPC’s generally deliver the same thinking and claims that I see on this site. And much of that has been refuted.
“But I suppose the bottom line is that CPC’s generally deliver the same thinking and claims that I see on this sit.”
Yup, that abortion kills human beings. Cranium, you admit abortion kills a human fetus yourself but this simple fact alone isn’t enough to make abortion wrong to you.
If you are OK with the killing of humans, there is nothing anyone here can say or do for you. All that is left is for us to pray for your conversion. Why do you keep coming here? There must be many athiest blogs for you to argue on.
I personally think that you come back here because you know we are right, you really love us and because we remind you of that of which you are missing in your life.
Abortion causes depression. It did for me and thousands of other post abortive women. Abortion causes infertility. 3 of my friends and could NEVER have children after their abortions. Please prove that infertility is NOT a risk of abortion. Please prove that depression is NOT a risk of abortion. Please link to Planned Parenthood. LOL
I believe Dr. Nadal is covering the ABC link on his blog. Everyday he is doing a post on a study. Hey!! Lifenews has a write up about it!
http://lifenews.com/nat6718.html
Oh, but don’t take my word for it, Cran. I have only lived it.
Nice thoughts Praxedes, but not quite. I come here because someone needs to demonstrate the truth on the occasions when it is hidden, misrepresented or misconstrued. We don’t want people wandering in and getting the wrong information now do we.
Praxedes, I think everyone knows that abortion kills, extinguishes the life of, or terminates the gestation of a potential child. But it’s been happening for thousands of years and will continue to do so. Legal or illegal. ‘Right’ or ‘wrong’.
‘…you admit abortion kills a human fetus yourself but this simple fact alone isn’t enough to make abortion wrong to you.’ – exactly. People accept it. Even anti-choice protesters have been known to ‘slip inside’ an abortion clinic when the need arises for them.
You will continue to campaign on the grounds that it is ‘murder’ and anti-scriptural. Just don’t try to justify your cause with untruths about mortality rates and other physiological or psychological factors.
And how many people suffer depression or other impacts because they didn’t have an abortion? That sort of data doesn’t get collected. What about the other socio-economic factors flowing from unwanted pregnancies. That sort of data doesn’t get collected either.
‘Abortion causes infertility.’ – prove it - ‘3 of my friends and could NEVER have children after their abortions.’ – prove the link - ‘Please prove that infertility is NOT a risk of abortion.’ – what? You make such statements and then demand that I refute them? How about you provide something to back up your assertions. ‘Please prove that depression is NOT a risk of abortion.’ – it probably is – please prove that depression is NOT a risk of unwanted pregnancies. ‘Please link to Planned Parenthood. LOL’ – Please link to CPC’s ROFLMAO!
Dr. Nadal? Did you not see my response to him yesterday? Lifenews? –
‘A microbiologist says there are so many published studies confirming the link between induced abortion and breast cancer’ -ah, if only that were true. Again, refer to my response to Dr. Nadal yesterday.
I do take your word for it Carla. You have suffered depression. You may have suffered depression beacuse you had an abortion. Can you provide evidence that ‘thousands’ of post-abort women have depression and that it is due to their abortion only? Can you provide evidence of the ‘thousands’ of women who suffer depression because of the situation an unwanted pregnancy has led to because it wasn’t terminated?
I am a State Leader for Operation Outcry. We have collected close to 5,000 declarations that document the personal stories of women who have suffered depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, nightmares, drug abuse and infertility. It is THEIR OWN STORIES about their abortions that are filed as friend of the court briefs in prolife legislation.
You know what, Cran? It doesn’t really matter what I write does it?
Good night.
If you have been hurt by abortion please fill out a declaration online. Join your voice with the thousands of others that have been hurt by abortion.
http://www.operationoutcry.org
If it didn’t matter Carla, I wouldn’t be here. I stipulated that earlier.
I have no disagreement with the claim of 5,000 declarations. My point is that to what extent are they scientifically validated? It is easy to say ‘I am depressed. I had an abortion. That must be why’. Yes of course in some cases it would definitely be so. But are there proven causal links for all of the depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, nightmares, drug abuse and infertility? It may actually be that they are all valid and directly linked. It could be.
What we do not have are a similar set of reports, declarations and personal stories from those who continued an unplanned pregnancy for whatever reason. How many of these people are driven to depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, nightmares, drug abuse and infertility because of their ensuing circumstances? The reports and data concerning THEIR OWN STORIES is not collected let alone tabulated.
Pleasant dreams Carla.
You do take my word for it. Even though my word is not scientifically validated? Ha
Personal abortion stories are irrefutable, Cran. I swear I have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about my abortion experience.
To follow your logic I guess who you need to interview are MOMS who now have their children with them but weren’t sure what to do when they first found out they were pregnant. Go for it. Not sure how that refutes the pain of abortion but ok.
Night.
Cranium, you realized that the majority of studies indicate a link. Some of these studies were done by breast cancer doctors. The problem is not the studies. Liberal don’t want any consequences to abortion. Since breast cancer is so prevalent any possible link to abortion has to be debunked.
As a woman, the first thing that changed when I was pregnant were my breasts. Pregnancy is a major hormonal change. How interesting that there is postpartum syndrome after pregnancy, depression after miscarriage, but abortion, oh no consequence there. After all the woman choose the procedure. Since abortion brings the death of a human fetus I suspect it to be more devastating than a miscarriage. Unless of course is nothing more than a troublesome body part.
A few years ago, I remember reading a blog about miscarriage in which one of the ways a woman consoles herself, is by accepting that there was nothing that they did or could avoid to not have a miscarriage. For abortion, what can be said? Sorry, you choose the procedure, deal with it. You should be happy, since you can get back to your life….
Cranium, without looking for studies since abortion is so political, one can guess there are reproductive and health consequences to abortion. Use common sense.
Prolifers I love and appreciate you guys but you know cran is trolling with endless circular arguments, playing “bait and switch” with you and wasting your precious time, right? Talk about “casting your pearls before swine”. It is very patient of you but it makes cran feel he/she is a “brain”. When I read his reason for staying on this blog (on a different thread) it was interesting, feeds the narcissistic ego, but carry on guys it is a free country (at least for now until BHO “transforms America”).
Can’t seem to take my own advice but I just can’t resist responding to his attack on CPCs. So here it goes.
(Sarcasm Alert!) Pro-aborts of the world unite. Attack CPCs for saving babies lives it is a crime against humanity. If a woman wants a dead baby be sure she gets one or it is a human rights violation. Guarantee that every woman who wants a dead baby gets one and if she is talked out of aborting and shown an ultrasound make sure that the CPC is charged with a crime. Saving babies from mutilation and dismemberment is in violation of insuring every woman’s right to a dead baby whether the baby is at 33 weeks, 40 weeks or at any point she deems appropriate. If the woman doesn’t want the baby it is a “fetus” worthy of death, ‘it” does not become a human being until the woman decides she wants it. Get rid of CPCs don’t allow them to save another life.
And if you truly knew THE MASTER( Jesus Christ), Nick, YOU wouldn’t be such a slave to your own bitterness and pettiness.
Carla, I accepted that you have 5,000 declarations based on your ‘I swear I have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’ – and that was before you even said it! :-)
‘Personal abortion stories are irrefutable’ – but are they? Depression is such a nefariously complex condition that it cannot always be irrefutably be linked to what the sufferer believes to be the cause. The same question mark must apply to varying degrees to the other conditions you mentioned too.
What I questioned was the data sets regarding reasons and causal links. That we can’t be sure of. I said that if I acceded that these instances were all factual there was still an issue because there is no comparison data for the ‘other side of the coin’. It may not refute the pain of abortion but it might show us to what extent the pain of not having an abortion impacts.
Pleasant dreams Carla, again.
‘Cranium, you realized that the majority of studies indicate a link.’ – no Chantal, that is exactly wrong. Quotes from scientific articles which I cited in one of my comments on another thread yesterday:
‘…concludes that there are, to date, insufficient data to justify warning women of future breast-cancer risk when counselling them about abortion.’
‘In conclusion, we find no increased risk for breast cancer associated with induced abortion in young women, regardless of parity.’
‘The problem is not the studies’ – well it is Chantal, at least for those who try to espouse that there is a link. Because the studies show that there isn’t one.
‘Liberal don’t want any consequences to abortion. Since breast cancer is so prevalent any possible link to abortion has to be debunked’ – or is it more a case of ‘abortion is so prevalent any possible link to breast cancer has to be promoted’.
‘Cranium, without looking for studies since abortion is so political, one can guess there are reproductive and health consequences to abortion. Use common sense’ – why is it political? It should only be medical. I can think of a few things I’d like to make ‘political’ and pursue with the fervor of some anti-choicers. Of course there are reproductive and health consequences, but how about some truth as to what they are. And how do they compare with numerous other factors and scenarios? Less women die through abortion than delivery, surely logic would dictate the cessation of births? That would, of course, be counterproductive. But everything has a cost (not just in $ terms) and some negative impacts – but how much and compared to what?
Pro-aborts of the world unite. – yes, protect freedom!
Attack CPCs for saving babies lives it is a crime against humanity. – no, it’s not.
If a woman wants a dead baby be sure she gets one or it is a human rights violation. – yes!
Guarantee that every woman who wants a dead baby gets one and if she is talked out of aborting – through the use of lies and misinformation- and shown an ultrasound make sure that the CPC is charged with a crime. – nah, just cut their funding.
Saving babies from mutilation and dismemberment is in violation of insuring every woman’s right to a dead baby whether the baby is at 33 weeks, 40 weeks or at any point she deems appropriate. – that is correct.
If the woman doesn’t want the baby it is a “fetus” worthy of death, ‘it” does not become a human being until the woman decides she wants it. – that is correct, the proof is everywhere, every day.
Get rid of CPCs don’t allow them to save another life. – nah, cut off their funding but let them remain; after all, it’s all about CHOICE.
I don’t think rants like that add any value Prolifer L., for or by either of us. And claiming things like ‘bait and switch’ and ‘narcissistic ego’ are amusing but fatuous.
I think everyone knows that abortion kills, extinguishes the life of, or terminates the gestation of a potential child.
Not potential. Child. Unless you call yourself a “potential” senior citizen.
And abortion doesn’t “kill a gestation.” It kills a child.
You know what, Carla? I don’t think we can “prove” that the soldiers coming back from a war zone suffer trauma because of that experience, either.
Nor can we “prove” that women who are raped suffer trauma. I’ve never heard anyone say, “Oh, well, you might just be depressed because of OTHER factors. The fact that you were raped *could*, I suppose, have something to do with it, but you can’t prove it.”
Funny how people accept it, though, isn’t it?
Careful you don’t run too far or fast with that little piece of string Kel, it might break and you could fall over.
“Oh, well, you might just be depressed because of OTHER factors. The fact that you were raped *could*, I suppose, have something to do with it, but you can’t prove it.” – well you can actually, and that’s my point. Not trying a bit of Prolifer L.’s ‘bait and switch’ are you?
The appropriate diagnostic analysis of peoples’ condition will usually identify the specific cause. Ergo, soldiers returning from wars, because they are assessed. My question was that while there may be 5,000 declarations, how many of those have been clinically diagnosed as to their cause???
Yes, potential child.
[n] a young person of either sex (between birth and puberty); “she writes books for children”; “they’re just kids”; “`tiddler’ is a British term for youngsters”
I do call myself a ‘potential’ senior citizen. I haven’t got that far to go!
Guarantee that every woman who wants a dead baby gets one and if she is talked out of aborting – through the use of lies and misinformation- and shown an ultrasound make sure that the CPC is charged with a crime. – nah, just cut their funding.
Um… WHAT funding??
Saving babies from mutilation and dismemberment is in violation of insuring every woman’s right to a dead baby whether the baby is at 33 weeks, 40 weeks or at any point she deems appropriate. – that is correct.
If the woman doesn’t want the baby it is a “fetus” worthy of death, ‘it” does not become a human being until the woman decides she wants it. – that is correct, the proof is everywhere, every day.
Well, that was nauseating to read. I can’t believe people actually think this way. I know you say don’t perform abortions, cranium, but you certainly sound like an abortionist. I’m sure you’ll take that as a compliment.
Get rid of CPCs don’t allow them to save another life. – nah, cut off their funding but let them remain; after all, it’s all about CHOICE.
Again, WHAT funding are you referring to? When I operated a CPC, I had to work my tail off to raise money from churches and individuals. We got no government funding. (And shall we take Planned Parenthood’s millions away? If not, why not? They would shut down if not for gov’t funding.) There were times I went without a paycheck so I could pay the rent and keep the doors open so babies could be saved and moms could have formula, diapers, and clothes for their children. If it were really about “choice,” there wouldn’t be such a massive effort to demonize CPCs. What pro-“choicers” want is for us to shut up and go away. But we will not go away, as long as babies continue to be slaughtered in the name of “choice.” You and others can continue to gloat and say it’s a futile effort, but you know what? We don’t care. If what we do saves one more life, helps one more mother or one more father to see the value of their beautiful children, it will be worth it all. It will be worth the slander and the persecution. It will be worth the mocking that we endure in person, in the political arena, and on message boards every day.
The best birthday gift I ever got was a phone call. The woman on the other end had come in for a free pregnancy test months before. When she left that day, after taking all the information on fetal development and allowing me to pray for her, I believed she would abort anyway. Months later, she found my business card in her drawer and called me to tell me she had her baby, a little boy, and I got to meet him a few months later. She came to one of our fundraisers and said how if we hadn’t been there, HE would not have been there. Worth it? Most definitely.
“Oh, well, you might just be depressed because of OTHER factors. The fact that you were raped *could*, I suppose, have something to do with it, but you can’t prove it.” – well you can actually, and that’s my point. Not trying a bit of Prolifer L.’s ‘bait and switch’ are you?
It’s called making a valid comparison. Oh, wait, I forgot, you don’t equate rape with abortion, because abortion does not violate any human rights. Uh huh. Got it.
My question was that while there may be 5,000 declarations, how many of those have been clinically diagnosed as to their cause???
It does not matter how many have been clinically diagnosed. It matters that there are 5000 declarations of women who regret their abortions, were lied to, and who continue to suffer from that decision, mentally, emotionally, and physically, since that day. How do we know that the soldiers or the rape victims didn’t have mental issues before their encounters? We don’t. And pro-aborts are fond of saying all the women who regret their abortions were mentally ill beforehand. Shall we say the same about war veterans and rape victims?
“Potential children” are ones who have not yet been conceived. I really don’t know why you’re obfuscating your true opinion here. Why not just say that abortion kills a human child? You support it up to the day of birth (as you stated previously), so I don’t see why it’s so difficult. If you’re pro-killing unborn children, I don’t know why you’d have to hide behind deceptive terminology.
And ProliferL is right. No one can get anywhere with you – very circular.
I hope no one tries to take away your rights as a senior citizen one day, simply because you are in a stage of life that is deemed of less worth than another.
cranium September 23rd, 2010 at 11:02 pm If the woman doesn’t want the baby it is a “fetus” worthy of death, ‘it” does not become a human being until the woman decides she wants it. – that is correct, the proof is everywhere, every day.
How does one get to the point where one truly believes this? Why? Are you saying that if a woman didn’t declare that she wanted her baby, she could kill him or her say, an hour after birth? Two days? And your ‘proof’ is where? This is sickening.
‘WHAT funding?’ –
At least eight U.S. states, subsidize crisis pregnancy centers.
In seventeen states individuals can support CPCs by purchasing “Choose Life” license plates. Motorists in these states can request these plates and pay an extra fee, a portion of which is used by the state to fund crisis pregnancy centers and adoption support organizations.
As of July, 2006, 50 CPCs had received federal funding. Between 2001 and 2006, over $60 million in federal funds were given to crisis pregnancy centers.
Not to mention indirect funding whereby government funded organizations then pass funds to CPC’s.
‘I can’t believe people actually think this way’ – well obviously they do Kel, otherwise abortions simply wouldn’t happen. ‘…you certainly sound like an abortionist. I’m sure you’ll take that as a compliment’ – how droll. I could say in kind that you certainly sound like someone who just cannot accept that the whole world doesn’t live, behave and believe as you do.
‘raise money from churches’ – which receive tax benefits at the very least – taxpayers money.
‘If it were really about “choice,” there wouldn’t be such a massive effort to demonize CPCs’ – pointing out lies and misrepresentations is demonizing?
‘What pro-”choicers” want is for us to shut up and go away.’ – and why not? Your whole cause and campaign is predicated on your personal values and beliefs, not everyone elses. But we live in a free society, so I would not intend to attempt to shut you up, just keep you honest in your campaigning.
‘It’s called making a valid comparison. Oh, wait, I forgot, you don’t equate rape with abortion, because abortion does not violate any human rights. Uh huh. Got it.’ – now you are perpetrating a ‘bait and switch’! How do you go from discussing clinically diagnosed causes of trauma to a comparison between rape and abortion. How disingenuous!
‘It does not matter how many have been clinically diagnosed’ – yes it does actually. You cannot allege depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, nightmares, drug abuse and infertility as being cause by abortion just because someone regrets their decision. How many other factors could be contributors? Why did they have an abortion in the first place?
‘How do we know that the soldiers or the rape victims didn’t have mental issues before their encounters? We don’t’ – we do. It’s called psychoanalysis, amongst various diagnostic tools.
‘And pro-aborts are fond of saying all the women who regret their abortions were mentally ill beforehand.’ – proof? How many is ‘fond’? Two, Six or a thousand? Out of how many pro-choicers?
Abortion kills a human fetus. How many times do I need to provide the definition of ‘child’?
‘No one can get anywhere with you – very circular.’ – if you care to see how you approached the whole rape and abortion thing in the context of what I was discussing, versus what you came out with above; you will see why you can’t get anywhere.
Amanda K. your inability to comprehend how people think that way is about the same as my inability to comprehend how people have faith.
‘And your ‘proof’ is where?’ – I’m guessing you’re referring to the proof that ‘If the woman doesn’t want the baby it is a “fetus” worthy of death, ‘it” does not become a human being until the woman decides she wants it’ which is that people choose abortion.
I guess its goodnight for all you good people. May peace be upon you all.
Hi Kel,
You know why I am here. I am here for all of the women who are struggling after their abortions. They may not comment but they are reading. They email me. They call me. They pour out their hearts to me. They realize that they are not alone. They can’t understand that if abortion is their “right” why do they feel so awful?? Why were they convinced there were no risks to abortion? Some were coerced, forced and lied to and abandoned. They have been treated like sh** by those that claim they “care about women.”
As a Rachel’s Vineyard facilitator there is a time when all attending sit around and share their abortion stories.(Scientific validation? HA!!!)Abortion hurt them and killed their babies. Abortion hurt me and killed my child. The truth sets us free.
If anyone needs me I am here for you carla@jillstanek.com
I will offer to you all that I have been given.
Dearest Nick and Cran,
You HAVE to believe the lies that abortion is the best thing to offer women. You HAVE to believe everything you type here. Your livelihood depends on you being sold out to evil. God help you.
Cranium,
Even if abortion had no consequences for the woman physically or psychologically, we are still left with the most important question of all: is it morally okay to kill an innocent living, human being (the fetus) who has done nothing to deserve capitol punishment?
“My question was that while there may be 5,000 declarations, how many of those have been clinically diagnosed as to their cause?” ~ Cranium</em>
Cranium,
I’d like to know how many of the women who claim to have “no regrets” about abortion have been clinically diagnosed to prove this. Do they really have no regrets or are they in denial? When was their testimony written? Days after the abortion? Let’s interview them again in ten years and see if they still feel the same way. Plus, since they haven’t been clinically diagnosed as psychologically a-okay after an abortion, how do we know some of these testimonies aren’t coming from sociopaths?
Again, at the end of the day, the most important question remains the same: Is it okay to kill an innocent human being? The answer is no.
Bekah,
You took the words right out of my mouth. :)
I think that on the internet, the pro-choice disturbers are a kind of similar animal one to another. They post in order to disturb. But in our daily lives, many of our friends and relatives who are pro-choice are ignorant, mislead, and actually believe that they mean well toward women. This site, and how Jill so kindly tolerates their comments, reveals a lot about the extreme side of the pro-abortion crowd that frequents the internet.
Now the ray of hope is this: they know that we pray for them. I see comments by pro-lifers that they pray and I know that I do. Even these nicknames they pick, I use them in my prayers. Do they feel this on a level unnoticed by their concious minds? Perhaps they do. Perhaps that is the lure of us: the light of prayer and compassion. I will continue to pray for all the Ashleys, Biggz, and Craniums of the world. We are all God’s children, and God loves all of us, even the atheists, even the abortioneers, even the mother who makes the worst decision of her life. God is always ready for us, ready to receive us and comfort us. May the Lord bless you and keep you, may his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he look upon you kindly and give you peace. Amen.
Cranium,
Pro-choicers “work” of trying to eliminate the “shame” of abortion and encouraging woman of being proud to have had an abortion, even making tee-shirts with that says ” I had an abortion!” If their work was successful, the recall bias would be less. I guess recall is only good when pro-choicers want to be proud of their deed. Right? However if it might affect a medical diagnostic, then a woman would lie? They are told left right and center to be proud of their decision that they made for the best.
I dunno, for my second child I was asked, how many times I’ve been pregnant. I said three, one was a miscarriage. Seems for medical purposes, one would want to be truthful.
Cranium, what are the consequences for the pro-choicers, when it is finally accepted that the rick of breast cancer can be increased by abortion? How is their business affected?
For us even if abortion does not increase the risk, you are still ending the beginning life of a human being it doesn’t change our position.
I think you guys can see from cran’s responses what you are truly dealing with. A promoter of “death”. I think you probably have much better things to do with your time. Ignore the troll, sounds like a good plan to me.
I do want to encourage all prolifers, CPC volunteers, directors, ex-directors (like Kel), counselors and staff today. Iknow you deserve it after all the accusations from the promoter of “death”. Remember the old commercial “Life, what a beautiful choice”. Isn’t it great to be pro-life, instead of pro-death? For every baby saved from mutilation and death, every woman or man counseled, every hug given to mothers and precious babies, every tear shed with a client, every dollar, crib, stroller, baby item, item of maternity clothers, prenatal visit, parenting class, GED class and job training you have GIVEN free of charge, you have brought light and LIFE into the world instead of the curse of death and darkness. Be blessed. The promoter of death and “the accuser of the brethern”, doth protest too much.
On a side note even if there are 5 studies indicating a link, for you 1 study done by pro-choicers trumps them all. One study is enough for the federal medical boards to say, there is not enough evidence to indicate a link. Maybe they will admit a possible link when the studies outnumber 10 to 1. Maybe cranium, it is not politically correct to admit there is a link? Just maybe? Imagine the political consequences if they admit that abortion increases breast cancer….
‘WHAT funding?’ –
At least eight U.S. states, subsidize crisis pregnancy centers.
In seventeen states individuals can support CPCs by purchasing “Choose Life” license plates. Motorists in these states can request these plates and pay an extra fee, a portion of which is used by the state to fund crisis pregnancy centers and adoption support organizations.
As of July, 2006, 50 CPCs had received federal funding. Between 2001 and 2006, over $60 million in federal funds were given to crisis pregnancy centers.
Not to mention indirect funding whereby government funded organizations then pass funds to CPC’s.
Oh, good, is that something I can thank President Bush for, with the faith based initiatives? I don’t honestly know. When I was at a CPC, it was well before any of the programs you mentioned. Most likely, the federal funds going to CPCs are for abstinence education, which many CPCs facilitate in the public and private schools. The fact remains that almost every penny of support for CPCs comes from individual and church donations. It’s very nice, however, that the government has seen fit to give certain grants to CPCs in recent years, as well. It’s only right, since they dump all that taxpayer $$ into Planned Parenthood.
‘…you certainly sound like an abortionist. I’m sure you’ll take that as a compliment’ – how droll. I could say in kind that you certainly sound like someone who just cannot accept that the whole world doesn’t live, behave and believe as you do.
Hmm, let’s see, if I have to choose between being labeled “intolerant of abortion” and “having the mindset of an abortionist,” I’ll choose the former.
‘raise money from churches’ – which receive tax benefits at the very least – taxpayers money.
Taxpayers’ money which they willingly give. It is not forcibly taken and distributed. Charitable giving, heard of it?
‘If it were really about “choice,” there wouldn’t be such a massive effort to demonize CPCs’ – pointing out lies and misrepresentations is demonizing?
Which lies are they telling? And please, for the love of all that’s holy, don’t send me to a website that has anecdotes of pro-abortion zealots who have “gone undercover” to try and “catch” CPCs in lies. Those claims are so unsubstantiated, it’s really not funny.
‘What pro-”choicers” want is for us to shut up and go away.’ – and why not? Your whole cause and campaign is predicated on your personal values and beliefs, not everyone elses.
Yes, that’s right. They are my values, and I believe them to be correct, or I wouldn’t do what I do. I believe that a single human’s rights stop where he/she would cause another innocent human deliberate bodily harm.
But we live in a free society, so I would not intend to attempt to shut you up, just keep you honest in your campaigning.
Right. Honesty. It’s neat how that value is held so highly by you, while the value of life isn’t. And before you say you value “life,” it really isn’t true. You value one person’s liberty over another person’s life.
‘It’s called making a valid comparison. Oh, wait, I forgot, you don’t equate rape with abortion, because abortion does not violate any human rights. Uh huh. Got it.’ – now you are perpetrating a ‘bait and switch’! How do you go from discussing clinically diagnosed causes of trauma to a comparison between rape and abortion. How disingenuous!
I thought you and I discussed comparing rape and abortion on another thread, which is why I mentioned it. Was it not you? I wasn’t attempting a bait and switch. I believed we had discussed this before. Perhaps I’m thinking of Biggz or another commenter.
‘It does not matter how many have been clinically diagnosed’ – yes it does actually. You cannot allege depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, nightmares, drug abuse and infertility as being cause by abortion just because someone regrets their decision. How many other factors could be contributors? Why did they have an abortion in the first place?
But they all happen to have that one main thing in common: abortion. They all happen to remember the trauma of that situation.
‘How do we know that the soldiers or the rape victims didn’t have mental issues before their encounters? We don’t’ – we do. It’s called psychoanalysis, amongst various diagnostic tools.
So, they were all analyzed before these incidents occurred?
‘And pro-aborts are fond of saying all the women who regret their abortions were mentally ill beforehand.’ – proof? How many is ‘fond’? Two, Six or a thousand? Out of how many pro-choicers?
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/myths/post_abortion_syndrome.html : “Significant psychiatric illness following abortion occurs most commonly in women who were psychiatrically ill before pregnancy, in those who decided to undergo abortion under external pressure, and in those who underwent abortion in aversive circumstances, for example, abandonment.”
Abortion kills a human fetus. How many times do I need to provide the definition of ‘child’?
Thanks. Now the next time you call a human fetus “potential life,” I get to remind you that there is no such thing. Right?
‘No one can get anywhere with you – very circular.’ – if you care to see how you approached the whole rape and abortion thing in the context of what I was discussing, versus what you came out with above; you will see why you can’t get anywhere.
And I explained that I brought it up because I thought we had discussed it before. If we didn’t, I apologize for confusing you with someone else.
‘K, think I’m done wasting my time and energy replying to you now.
Cranium,
It’s interesting to note that while the prochoice community vehemently denies any connection between abortion and post-traumatic stress disorder (or more specifically, post-abortion syndrome), the American Psychiatric Association does in fact list abortion as a *trigger* of PTSD.
Source: [American Psychiatric Association, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, rev. ed. (1987), pg. 250.]
Oh my goodness! So much to respond to.
Carla – ‘Some were coerced, forced and lied to and abandoned.’ – this goes on in many circumstances with women who fall pregnant unfortunately. Not just those who choose abortion.
‘You HAVE to believe the lies that abortion is the best thing to offer women.’ – who ever said it was the best thing? What a statement!
‘You HAVE to believe everything you type here.’ – we don’t have to, we just do.
‘Your livelihood depends on you being sold out to evil.’ – how do you figure that?
‘God help you’ – ahem, well, enough said.
Bekah – ‘is it morally okay to kill an innocent living, human fetus’ – apparently it is. The majority accept it. ‘The answer is no.’– again, the majority disagree.
‘how many of the women who claim to have “no regrets” about abortion have been clinically diagnosed to prove this’ – probably very few. And the number of women who were prevented from having an abortion aren’t either. That is the point I was making. We only have the stories and diagnoses of those who have had abortions and regret it, we don’t have anyone elses stories or diagnoses.
‘many of our friends and relatives who are pro-choice are ignorant, mislead’ – why ninek? Because they disagree with your position?
‘the extreme side of the pro-abortion crowd’ – what, like lining road sides with huge horror photos of aborted fetuses, and of miscarriages portrayed as aborted fetuses? Or bombing? Or shooting?
Pray for us if you wish. Just be aware that it means nothing to me. I also wish you joy and peace. May the sun shine upon you and the weather be kind to you.
Chantal – ‘what are the consequences for the pro-choicers, when it is finally accepted that the rick of breast cancer can be increased by abortion’ – All current independent studies show no link between abortion and breast cancer so your question is rather moot.
‘A promoter of “death”’ –that simply isn’t true Prolifer L. and it adds nothing to your argument.
Nor does your ‘On a side note even if there are 5 studies indicating a link, for you 1 study done by pro-choicers trumps them all’ Chantal. That is not the case. I go with the WEIGHT of evidence.
‘Maybe cranium, it is not politically correct to admit there is a link? Just maybe?’ – I’m afraid your wish is not true Chantal.If there was a demonstrable link it would be shouted from the rooftops. Just look at the volume of protest over some possible abortion funding in the healthcare package.
Greetings Kel – ‘thank President Bush for, with the faith based initiatives’ – I thought there is supposed to be separation of church and state?
‘Taxpayers’ money which they willingly give’ – not quite. For every tax exemption given to churches, the more income tax is required from everyone else. I’m one of these.
‘Which lies are they telling?’ – of course you won’t acknowledge the swathe of reports indicating dishonest operating methods. ‘Those claims are so unsubstantiated, it’s really not funny.’ – no? Well what about ‘‘A 2006 study by the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform found that 20 out of 23 CPCs surveyed provided false or misleading information about abortion (87 percent!). These centers were telling women that abortion causes breast cancer, infertility and depression, all of which are not true. These CPCs are government funded to tell lies and spread mistruths. Since 2001, CPCs have gotten more than $30 million in federal funding’
‘I thought you and I discussed comparing rape and abortion on another thread’ – we did. But that had absolutely zero correlation to the point under discussion on this thread. I found the fact that you introduced it in the way you did to perhaps fit into that ‘bait and switch’ thingy.
‘But they all happen to have that one main thing in common: abortion. They all happen to remember the trauma of that situation.’ – and what else did they have in common? And what were their circumstances leading up to their abortion?
‘So, they were all analyzed before these incidents occurred?’ – no, it’s generally done after the event, when problems have manifested.
Cran,
Carla – ‘Some were coerced, forced and lied to and abandoned.’ – this goes on in many circumstances with women who fall pregnant unfortunately. Not just those who choose abortion.
Some were coerced into abortion.
Some were forced to abort.
Some were lied to and because of those lies they aborted.
Some were abandoned by family, friends and boyfriends and aborted.
Pay attention.
I was talking about abortion.
“Pray for us if you wish. Just be aware that it means nothing to me.”
The fact that it means nothing to you is exactly why we pray for you Cran. Jill’s Place is so filled with love, I know it’s hard to stay away.
I’ve prayed that you keep coming back here and what do you know? My prayers have been answered again!
A little video to let you know I’ve been thinking about you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzXKWKaxt3c
I get your point Carla, but the fact is that:
Some were coerced into pregnancy.
Some were forced to stay pregnant.
Some were lied to and because of those lies they did not abort.
Some were abandoned by family, friends and boyfriends and unable to obtain an abortion.
it happens in all sorts of circumstances, all equally bad.
‘Jill’s Place is so filled with love, I know it’s hard to stay away’ – well you are good intentioned people. It’s not always filled with love though.
‘I’ve prayed that you keep coming back here and what do you know? My prayers have been answered again!’ – ah, how convenient. And if I didn’t who’s prayers were being answered then? And why did one set of prayers not have the success that other ones did?
Oh yes well all righty then Cran. Thanks for clearing that up. That makes so much more sense now.
::eyeroll::
If a woman doesn’t abort, in 9 months the pregnancy is terminated BY THE BIRTH OF A BABY!(Can she kill it then??)
“And if I didn’t who’s prayers were being answered then?”
But you did.
“And why did one set of prayers not have the success that other ones did?”
Who was praying that you would stay away?
‘is it morally okay to kill an innocent living, human fetus’ – apparently it is. The majority accept it. ‘The answer is no.’– again, the majority disagree.
Yes, and at one time, the majority agreed that slavery was a great thing, too.
Greetings Kel – ‘thank President Bush for, with the faith based initiatives’ – I thought there is supposed to be separation of church and state?
Is that a question or a statement? “Separation of church and state” was written in an 1802 letter (I believe it was 1802) by Thomas Jefferson. it isn’t in the founding documents of the U.S.
And am I to surmise from your disdain for anything “faith based” that you believe all organizations which are affiliated with a religion are somehow unworthy of funding, thought they may be doing worthy things?
A 2006 study by the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform found that 20 out of 23 CPCs surveyed provided false or misleading information about abortion (87 percent!).
20 out of 3,000 CPCs?
These centers were telling women that abortion causes breast cancer, infertility and depression, all of which are not true.
It is more likely that they were telling clients there was a risk of these complications. Does every patient always experience every adverse risk from a procedure? No. But women deserve to know. BTW, repeat abortions, especially, can cause scarring and infertility, and depression is common after an abortion.
These CPCs are government funded to tell lies and spread mistruths.
If a center is being funded, the funds must go toward education and human services. You do know they provide clothing, diapers, and other services to women as well, regardless of whether or not they were in crisis pregnancies or not, right?
http://www.atcmag.com/v5n1/article6.asp
But they all happen to have that one main thing in common: abortion. They all happen to remember the trauma of that situation.’ – and what else did they have in common? And what were their circumstances leading up to their abortion?
And here is where I will bring up rape again. Do all rape victims have several things in common? What about victims of car crashes? What about war veterans? What were their mental faculties like before they encountered those traumas, and what were the circumstances they were in before those things occurred?
‘So, they were all analyzed before these incidents occurred?’ – no, it’s generally done after the event, when problems have manifested.
Exactly. That’s my point. But I would not presume to tell a rape victim or car crash victim that somehow their trauma couldn’t have anything to do with the event in question simply because I was convinced there couldn’t possibly be any trauma associated with the event. Unfortunately, due to extreme bias, many people discount the testimonials of women who suffer from abortion. This is WRONG, and it’s why they’re now speaking out. War veterans had to do the same thing years ago. It took over 100 years for military doctors to truly understand the trauma of battle and what effects it was taking on soldiers. Just because not all soldiers experience this trauma does not discount the experiences of others who do.
I hope it doesn’t take 100 years for medicine to recognize that abortion can be traumatic, as well. Many of these symptoms are experienced by post-abortive women:
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/emotional_psychological_trauma.htm
Emotional symptoms of trauma:
Shock, denial, or disbelief
Anger, irritability, mood swings
Guilt, shame, self-blame
Feeling sad or hopeless
Confusion, difficulty concentrating
Anxiety and fear
Withdrawing from others
Feeling disconnected or numb
Physical symptoms of trauma:
Insomnia or nightmares
Being startled easily
Racing heartbeat
Aches and pains
Fatigue
Difficulty concentrating
Edginess and agitation
Muscle tension
These symptoms and feelings typically last from a few days to a few months, gradually fading as you process the trauma. But even when you’re feeling better, you may be troubled from time to time by painful memories or emotions—especially in response to triggers such as an anniversary of the event or an image, sound, or situation that reminds you of the traumatic experience.
Grieving is normal following a traumatic event
Whether or not a traumatic event involves death, survivors must cope with the loss, at least temporarily, of their sense of safety and security. The natural reaction to this loss is grief. Like people who have lost a loved one, trauma survivors go through a grieving process. This process, while inherently painful, is easier if you turn to others for support, take care of yourself, and talk about how you feel
When to seek professional help for emotional or psychological trauma
Recovering from a traumatic event takes time, and everyone heals at his or her own pace. But if months have passed and your symptoms aren’t letting up, you may need professional help from a trauma expert.
It’s a good idea to seek professional help if you’re:
Having trouble functioning at home or work
Suffering from severe fear, anxiety, or depression
Unable to form close, satisfying relationships
Experiencing terrifying memories, nightmares, or flashbacks
Avoiding more and more things that remind you of the trauma
Emotionally numb and disconnected from others
Using alcohol or drugs to feel better
“A 2006 study by the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform found that 20 out of 23 CPCs surveyed provided false or misleading information about abortion (87 percent!).”
Oh, and btw, I was browsing WebMD for some info, only to find that their information on abortion risks was done by none other than Guttmacher, the research arm of Planned Parenthood. No bias there.
cranium
September 24th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Bekah – ‘is it morally okay to kill an innocent living, human fetus’ – apparently it is. The majority accept it. ‘The answer is no.’– again, the majority disagree.
For someone nicknamed Cranium, where is the rationality and logic in this response?
There have been countless atrocities, past and present, that were supported by the majority! Anyone who hides behind the majority is displaying abject cowardice. Like the Nazis who slaughtered six millions Jews, the cult personality of Joseph Stalin and his followers, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, the American Slave Trade … Today: Communist China where women are forced to abort their children or else be put in prison, the Congo where woman are raped and mutilated in unfathomable numbers, Darfur … Iran, et al, where the majority believes women are the property of men … the list goes on and on. To claim that killing innocent human beings (fetuses) is okay because the majority believes it is okay, is the same as supporting all these other atrocities in the name of “majority.” The majority has been wrong time and time again – history proves that.
‘Yes, and at one time, the majority agreed that slavery was a great thing, too.’ – it’s interesting that this attempted analogy pops up regularly. The fact is that times changed from the majority approving of slavery to the majority disapproving due to it’s inherent bigotry and power and control over people. With abortion, it has gone from the majority disapproving due to patriarchy and power and control over people (women) to the majority approving. So as you can see, your analogy is inverted.
’20 out of 3,000 CPCs?’ – nice try. 20 out of 23, 87%. If they had surveyed all 3000 I dare say the percentage would not have changed substantially.
‘Anyone who hides behind the majority is displaying abject cowardice. Like the Nazis who slaughtered six millions Jews, the cult personality of Joseph Stalin and his followers, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, the American Slave Trade …’ – abortion does not fit into this category. It’s not a valid comparison.
‘The majority has been wrong time and time again – history proves that.’ – yes, you are right. And preventing women from controlling their own bodies due to reasons of misogyny, patriarchy or (in some cases) religion is one of those cases. Thus the legalization of contraception and abortion.
cranium
September 26th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
‘Anyone who hides behind the majority is displaying abject cowardice. Like the Nazis who slaughtered six millions Jews, the cult personality of Joseph Stalin and his followers, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, the American Slave Trade …’ – “abortion does not fit into this category. It’s not a valid comparison.”
It’s a completely valid comparison. Abortion is the mass slaughter of an entire class of people. 1+ million fetuses are slaughtered annually in America alone. Only intellectual and spiritual blindness would prevent someone from seeing the obvious comparison between the genocides and massacres of history and the current atrocity of abortion.
No Bekah, they are different mindsets, different social and political phenomena, and have significantly different causes.
Your right Cranium, there are different social and political phenomena and different causes that underly the holocausts.
And innocent humans are still ending up dead due to the difference between my mindset and yours.