The grief liberal feminists cruelly forbid
Over at GoodMenProject.com, blogger Lu Fong opened up a conversation about my blog post, “Aborting father confronts pro-life protesters.”
Commenter Shelley responded with what I consider one of the cruelest liberal feminist myths, “[C]hoosing to have an abortion does not cause adverse mental health issues.” To which I responded, “How awful of you to deny a woman the right to grieve her abortion.”
Liberal feminists embrace postpartum depression because its fits their narrative, but they vehemently deny loss of a baby via abortion has any negative psychological consequences whatsoever.
Enter the emotional fallout from miscarriage, which feminists don’t like to talk about, because it is problematic. If mothers can suffer emotionally after miscarriages of wanted babies, why can’t mothers suffer emotionally after abortions of babies they say they would have wanted under different circumstances – and even unwanted – babies? And when pregnant again, do liberal feminists really believe psychological conflict is nonexistent, as if the abortion never happened?
This leads to singer Mariah Carey and singer husband Nick Cannon’s revelation that they suffered terribly after miscarrying a baby 2 years ago, this while making the happy announcement she is pregnant again. From Access Hollywood, October 28:
Mariah and Nick spoke candidly about… a terrifying miscarriage they experienced not quite two years ago. Mariah and Nick revealed they were getting ready to tell their friends and family the good news that they were expecting over the holidays back at that time, when they found out she was no longer pregnant.
“It kind of shook us both and took us into a place that was really dark and difficult,” Mariah told Billy about the devastating miscarriage. “When that happened… I wasn’t able to even talk to anybody about it. That was not easy.”
After the miscarriage, Nick said that the experience has made them stronger as a couple and he admires Mariah’s strength.
“It definitely brought us closer together,” Nick told Billy. “It strengthened our relationship so much… She handled it so well.”…
“Literally the day we were supposed to travel to Aspen, we had an ultrasound with the OB/GYN and unfortunately that was the time where he said, ‘I’m sorry, but this, you know, the pregnancy is unsuccessful,’ and that moment for me, even though it was emotional for both of us, that’s when I really saw the strength in this woman right here,” Nick recalled. “To see, literally, not only did she handle it so well… and then to get on a plane and have to spend Christmas with friends and family?”
“We had really to absorb this and take it in,” Mariah said.
“And that’s what I said, like her strength would literally be during the day so festive and smiling, obviously for cameras, and spending time with everyone and, you know, literally, that night crying herself to sleep,” Nick continued.
Billy also asked Mariah about the stress she was under after enduring so much speculation about a possible pregnancy.
“I wonder after losing the first child, was there a part of you – because of the media pressure – that felt like, ‘Can I do this?’’… that you had to get pregnant or else you would have failed in some way?” Billy asked.
“I mean obviously, that would be someone’s… you would imagine that that would enter someone’s mind,” Mariah explained. “When that happened and I wasn’t able to even talk to anybody about it, that was not OK. That was not easy….”
[The photos of a 10-wk-old miscarried baby, posted on flickr with commentary at LiveAction.org, were taken by OB/GYN med student Dr. Suparna Sinha in India on November 27, 2008, using a Nikon CoolpixS210.]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Commenter Shelley responded with what I consider one of the cruelest liberal feminist myths, “[C]hoosing to have an abortion does not cause adverse mental health issues.” To which I responded, “How awful of you to deny a woman the right to grieve her abortion.”
From the bottom of my heart, Thank you.
amen.
That picture is incredible.
Praying for you Carla!
That is the greatest picture… an undeniable human being. It simply cannot be called a blob of nothing by any honest, rational person. That’s a baby. And what does it say of our society that we justify preying on our smallest, weakest neighbors?
What’s truly ridiculous is that those who claim that post-abortive stress and grief is not real (these liberal feminists) deny scientific truth. When a naturally-occurring process is interrupted via natural miscarriage or abortion, the aftermath of the abrupt change in hormones is, at minimum, a case of depression for the mother. It makes me wonder if they themselves could possibly be truly in-tune with their own bodies, with the beautiful orchestra of hormones and events that make us women truly unique — for if they were, their natural reaction would be to immediately sympathize with these women. The truly feminine experiences strike a chord in the heart of other women, knowing innately from personal experience the changes that hormonal fluctuations affect in our bodies and in our emotions. The cognitive dissonance allowing these women to sympathize with women who miscarry but scoff at post-abortive trauma and grief is disgusting. One must be rational all of the time, except in their perspective when scientific truths and logic work against them. Pitiful.
No, Carla, thank YOU… :)
I don’t think anyone has ever said women NEVER feel guilt or regret after an abortion, just that it’s not nearly as common a feeling as anti-choice makes it out to be, and is 9 times out of 10 only felt by women who were anti-choice and aborted anyway or were unsure about their feelings.
Also, those pictures are so very, very shopped. I suppose they’re half-way decent; enough to fool someone who isn’t knowledgeable about light, a developing fetus, or how forms move. But an Intro to Computer Graphics student could do better. I’m not accusing anyone affiliated with this blog of creating them, just stating that those picture are obviously not photographs taken from real life.
Indeed, …, I do not know much about light. But I do think I know what a 10 week old fetus looks like. Do you have any photos of actual 10 week old fetuses?
Also, those pictures are so very, very shopped
Your right, Dotdotdot. This is really a photo of doll parts added to hamburger.
You didn’t grow up on a farm did you?
Uh, well, I guess the pictures of human fetuses in biology textbooks are “shopped” as well.
Prax, we all know that human beings aren’t human until they’re born, so that’s acutally a chicken embryo with arms and legs.
Uh, well, I guess the pictures of human fetuses in biology textbooks are “shopped” as well.
Yeah, those biology photos are definitely photoshopped, but the artist illustrations in the evolution section of the textbooks are always completely, 100% accurate.
When grieving for an abortion or miscarriage, friends are often at a loss as to what to say. But other people who think that the regret is deserved, comes with the territory, or doesn’t exist, well, they lack basic compassion. Compassion and cooperation are very valuable human attributes. They are the traits we value and look for in our friends and try to nurture in children. When we deny someone else’s pain, we are getting in the way of their healing. We show much love, even if we don’t know what to say, when we say we care. I am so glad that my mother took the time while raising us to teach us to have empathy for other people. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating: My mom is my hero.
I have to respond since someone amazingly claimed the above picture is “so very, very shopped.” What?! That makes no sense whatsoever! Anyway, I’ll share my firsthand experience. I’ve had 3 children, and have owned a week by week fetal development book for years. It was always so exciting with each pregnancy to see what the baby looked like and how big he was getting. I use midwives, not OBs, so I don’t get the ultrasounds most women do nowadays.
This past July, I became pregnant again, but sadly, the baby died. I found out when I started bleeding and actually passed the baby, intact in his sac, a few days later. That day, I was 11 1/2 weeks pregnant (I knew my conception date), although true fetal age would have been 9 1/2 weeks, as we all know pregnancy is dated from menstruation, not conception, so there is always a two week difference between true gestational age and how many weeks pregnant a lady is considered.
Anyway, by my book, I was expecting to see the baby to be the approximate size for that week, which would have been around two inches, but I instantly knew the baby was much too small and had died some time before. I looked in my book and was able to determine that death had occurred a few weeks prior. I never knew the baby had died. He fit the description and size of a 6 week old baby, or at 8 weeks pregnant. (Sorry if that is confusing. I don’t know why they count the first two weeks as being pregnant when you are really not.) A midwife came over, looked at the baby, and confirmed my age guess.
He was already distinctly human, with head, eyes, body, arms, and legs, and about 3/4 of an inch long. He was much smaller than the baby in the above picture, yet undeniably human. Not a blob of tissue, a baby. I never took him out of his sac, as I was afraid I might damage him. We buried him, and yes, it’s still sad, but I am trusting God.
I didn’t take any pictures, and I wouldn’t expect someone who believes the above photo is a fake to believe me if I did have a photo to share. I don’t how you can argue with science, and massive ultrasound images, and all the aborted and miscarried babies we have to witness. I guess you just have to shut your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears, and yell, “la, la, la, la….”
Christy,
I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your baby. Thank you for sharing. Praying for you.
I miscarried my 10 week old baby into my hand. The photo above is like the baby picture I never had.
Kristen,
Thank you for praying for me. :)
Sorry to hear about your miscarriages, Carly and Christa. What a painful experience. And they definitely weren’t “blobs!”
Also, those pictures are so very, very shopped. I suppose they’re half-way decent; enough to fool someone who isn’t knowledgeable about light, a developing fetus, or how forms move.
What are your credentials as a photographer and Photoshop expert?
Only God could create such a perfect human being – my two cents.
Jill, Carla,
I pray daily for both of you, for God’s abundant blessings of peace in the midst of this storm. You’ll never know until it is revealed in Heaven how many lives of babies you have saved, and how many women’s lives have been spared the ravages following abortion.
Yeah, the big reply to by pro-abort femis in the face of evidence showing the reality of PASS, is “oh, it is just hormonal fluctuations following a pregnancy termination, not grief.” So if a woman who aborts feels anything other than relief & empowerment, it is just her hormones. Don’t men get slapped for that kind of thing when referring to PMS? Can’t women have real emotions without their FEMALE hormones being the cause?
To the person who believes the photo to have been altered, I ask what your background is in pathology. I’ve seen plenty of these ‘specimens’ in pathology labs and can not discern a difference. Folks should go to this site to see real embryoscopy videos as a basis of comparison:
http://www.ehd.org/movies-index.php
What one needs to bear in mind is that living organisms begin to change in appearance in the moments following death as oxygen-deprived tissues begin to change. In one of the photos, the refraction of light as a function of the clarity of the fluid and the curvature of the sack cause the image of the researcher’s fingers to be bent and shifted, the same way a pencil appears when placed in a clear class half-filled with water.
I don’t see the basis of your assertion at all.
Dr. Nadal,
What is in the sac to the left of the baby?
My mom has a book from the 70s about fetal development, and the unborn babies in that book look a lot like this picture. Awfully long time for pro-choicers to sit on their butts and not produce “the truth” about what unborn babies look like, isn’t it? Come on, people, get to work!
Janet,
The red appears to be blood by the head, and above the left foot is the umbilical cord with some blood around it. Does that address what you are referencing, or is there some other structure?
(As a reference, I am using the baby’s left hand side, and not our left as we look at the photo)
Dr. Nadal,
The first photo is more clear than the second, there is something fleshy and yellow that almost looks like a separate “flap of skin” to the left of the bambino. I’m wondering what that is. Thanks.
(I’m referencing to the left as we look at the photo.)
Janet,
Gotcha! That’s actually the researcher’s glove. The glove is loose-fitting and there are folds in it. If you start above the baby’s head, you can see the image of the gloved finger curving down toward the baby. It then gets lost behind the baby and appears again below the torso with that extra fold of glove appearing as a fleshy fold. The discoloration of the amnionic fluid from the blood imparts a darker, flesh-toned appearance to the white glove behind it.
I’m running to a few appointments, but will be free after 7 PM EST for any other questions.
God Bless.
I totally missed that! Thank you, Dr. Gerard. God bless you too!
To the commenter called “…”
I know a lot about light – I’m a professional photographer, and an extremely experienced Photoshop user. I also have created/programmed Photoshop filters, understand image creation and analysis, have studied optics and refraction. I’m also quite knowledgable about 3D CGI.
While I leave the pathology to Dr. Nadal – your claim that the image above was Photoshopped is baseless – you need to provide evidence.
After examining the 2 provided images, I’ll give you 3 possibilities:
1. CGI – computer generated image: For this to be true, the modeling would have to be multi-layer/complex. Internal organs are visible through a translucent skin – consistent with the skin of a 10 week old fetus. Further, if you notice the shift/perspective of the child’s body means motion, animation of the model. To produce the final output would require considerable work in the compositor.
2: Photoshop composite: for this to be a Photoshop composite would require a tremendous amount of time/skill. There’s several points you have to answer:
a. where did the original tones/photobase come from?
b. how come there is no evidence of jpeg multi-artificating?
c. where did the consistent stochastic noise come from in the top photo and would someone actually spend the time to write an algorithm to map that correctly to the sensor photosite characteristics of the Nikon Coolpix camera?
3. A physical model: someone was able to use a variety of silicones and resins to recreate a pliable, fluid simulation of an actual sac of amniotic fluid and 10 week old fetus. They them staged and lit it, photographed it. The light refraction, anatomical detail and other details such as dust and particulate matter was carefully added later in PS. Additional time was then spent carefully on this created fraud to make it simulate an inexpensive camera.
I can tell the lower picture has been cropped and recompressed from the original. So, in that case it has been photoshopped – but that’s not to say it’s not from a false original.
Given those possibilities – please explain to us your evidence to indicate these are faked photos.
Dot,dot,dot
Way to wound all the bereaved mothers who have held their little 10 week miscarried babies in the palm of their hands, witnessing firsthand their personhood, naming them, and laying them to rest. I’m reminded of a song by the Imperials…..
“what human intellect can’t sway,
must be explained away”
Re: what the various body parts are, I refer you to the original flickr page:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74896762@N00/3166520949/in/pool-50303459@N00/
Hover your mouse over the body and annotations will appear.
I’m no expert but don’t think the photos were photoshopped. The photographer has a gallery. Click on the images to see the largest view.
Photoshopped or not (I’m on the not side, BTW), I agree with Jill that it is a shame that post-abortive women are so silenced by the abortion apologists. Grief doesn’t fit the narrative and so can not be allowed. It is, as Jill said, very cruel.
Thank you, Gerry for your prayers. :)
Drawing the sword over your sisters!
God’s handiwork is awe filled – we are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made!
The point that the pro-aborts consistently fail to miss that that we pro-lifers endeavor to stop the slaughter of the unborn because they are innocent, defenceless human beings, not because of what they look like.
Even if a 10 week human fetus looked like a meatball, we would still oppose his/her destruction.
Inconvieniently for the pro-abort, a 10 week human fetus does indeed look like a tiny human baby. Rather than admit that the “blob” arguments are false, they must imagine a world-wide grand conspiracy between embryology textbook authors, obstetricians, midwives, sonographers, pathologists, miscarried mothers and pro-lifers. Wow, we have been busy!
This particular picture wasn’t even an abortion- it was from a mother who was pregnant at the time it was discovered she had advanced uterine cancer. Her uterus was removed with this tiny baby inside it to save her life and a doctor took this picture, in awe of the beautiful little one whose life ended too soon due to tragic circumstances.
I suspect dotdotdot was a member of the Planned Parenthood debate team that was recently featured here that was claiming that fetal hearbeats begin at 24 weeks. In the past few months, I have personally witnessed, with sight and sound, the rhythmic beating hearts of about 50 1st trimester pre-born humans- a moment that often brings tears to the eyes of anyone in the room- but hey, we’re the ones who are making this stuff up.
Even if aborted babies didn’t have identifiable fingers, toes, faces, rib cages and spines as they very often (but not always) do, I will still fight to my very last breath to see all innocent human beings of any age protected from being killed, no matter what they look like.
beingkari: “ When a naturally-occurring process is interrupted via natural miscarriage or abortion, the aftermath of the abrupt change in hormones is, at minimum, a case of depression for the mother”
Not true. A miscarrying woman does not necessarily experience grief or depression.
Ledasmom,
I will not speak for every mother who has miscarried. I have had two miscarriages and they were devastating for me. Especially the child I miscarried into my hand. The baby I got to see with my own eyes. I grieved and still grieve for them. Because I love them.
Oh and I also still grieve the baby that died in my abortion.
One more thought
My grief was compounded when the proabort dr. I had while I miscarried dismissed my sadness and just told me I would pass a plum sized clot.(Soooo did not happen that way)She was unmoved while I sat crying in her office after she told me my baby’s heart had stopped beating. In fact, she just walked out after I refused a D & C.
I found a prolife dr. and while miscarrying a second time he held me while I sobbed in his office. His nurse also held me and let me stay as long as I wanted. They both comforted me by saying, “I am so sorry!”
When miscarriage is treated as no biggie that is terribly confusing to a woman that loves her baby.
That is the great disconnect. If we are talking about “a bunch of cells” then women would not grieve a miscarriage or an abortion.
that photo is amazing!
In fact, it doesn’t look too different from the “The Little One” fetal model I have that is the size of a baby about 10-12 weeks after conception.
DotDotDot: we don’t magically get all our organs, etc, as we are born. We already have them. Ultrasounds, embryoscopy and other advances show the humanity of these tiny little persons before birth.
You need to go back to Biology class and learn a little science.
Carla,
I would say it is also terribly confusing for those who do not experience grief from miscarriage to say that a woman should grieve or that it is abnormal not to.
Who would tell a woman what she SHOULD feel after miscarriage?
Google grief and miscarriage.
If someone does not grieve their miscarriage I am sure they will not be looking into resources about grief would they?
Nowhere have I read that it is abnormal to not grieve a miscarriage. If you can point me to that resource I would be glad to read it and so would my friend Bethany(another moderator here)who is working on a book about miscarriage.
I will tell you that my miscarriage stirred some very deep emotions for me about my abortion. Subsequent pregnancies can have that effect. A “wanted” child comes with ultrasounds, books with photos on fetal development and with time a baby is born!
Carla, there’s no reason to think that your doctor’s being a jerk had anything to do with her position on abortion. Some doctors are jerks. But when you say “When miscarriage is treated as no biggie that is terribly confusing to a woman that loves her baby”, that’s generalizing from your experience to the experience of any woman. I’m quite fond of my two children, and was quite fond of them when they were babies, but my miscarriage was no big deal – no grieving, no depression from it. I’d have been quite irritated if my doctor had made a big deal out of the miscarriage, or expected me to be emotionally off-kilter because of it, instead of offering me the option of letting it proceed naturally or having the D&C.
Of course, your particular doctor was a jerk, as I said, because you did need emotional comfort and she dismissed that. But I do think it’s a mistake for doctors to start out assuming that comfort is wanted or desired.
Ledasmom,
“Of course, your particular doctor was a jerk, as I said, because you did need emotional comfort and she dismissed that. But I do think it’s a mistake for doctors to start out assuming that comfort is wanted or desired.”
Yes, he was a jerk. I strongly disagree with the second part of your comment. A doctor who shows no empathy towards his patients should not be allowed to practice as an OB/GYN. This is where medical schools fail us. They should have directed him to another specialty. But then, if the medical school teaches abortion, what can we do? The doctor who treated Carla should have been working in a laboratory somewhere.
She is more than a “jerk.”
She is a proabort. She refers women for abortions.
One would think it common sense that a woman sobbing about a miscarriage would indeed need some words of comfort or a hug!! I sat there with my head in my hands trying to talk to her through my tears for goodness sake! She offered me nothing but her medical jargon. I believe it is called being intuitive? Having compassion? Going off the emotional response of a patient? If someone is not crying, does not appear upset in the least what Dr. in his/her right mind would go in for a hug??
I do not know that I said ALL women who ever have a miscarriage grieve. ALL of them, ALL the time. My experience with pregnancy loss has led me to so many women that have told me the same thing and validated my experience with theirs. Oh, and I was not emotionally off kilter. I had just been told my baby died. It’s called shock.
You didn’t grieve your miscarriage. Ok. Were you terribly confused by others who did? Or by those telling you they were so sorry?
When a woman loves her baby from the moment she sees the positive pregnancy test and plans and dreams and begins buying baby clothes and the doctor is cold and hard about the death of her child, it is terribly confusing.
Is that a generalization? I think it would be common sense. Family and friends also can tend to deny a mother’s grief.
guys, as a pro-choice feminist, I have to say that I think you’re deliberately misreading that quote. I have never, ever in all the pro-choice feminists that I have met, found a single one who would deny that abortion can be traumatic for the mother. We just disagree that abortion definitely is traumatic for every woman–I can tell you that there are plenty of women who are thoughtful but unharmed emotionally after their abortions–and we disagree that abortion is the sole cause of emotional distress for many women who count it as a factor. Pro-choice feminists believe in -choice-. We believe that abortion may be the right choice for some women some of the time, and we believe that if every woman has the ability to make that choice without duress, harassment, financial reasons, and in conjunction with God and with her doctor, that every woman is entirely capable of making that decision, and that it is better to fight for a world where every woman who does consider abortion never does so out of financial duress, lack of support, or because of outside influences, rather than fighting to outlaw abortion entirely–the worldwide figures on death and injuries from illegal abortions in countries where abortion is not safely available support this. I will remind you that the Dutch have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world, and it is because they have comprehensive sex education, readily available birth control and a high rate of responsible use of it, a society where women and families receive more support than they do in the U.S., and therefore a society where abortion is frequently unnecessary. Certainly it seems like all our vitriol over abortion would be better channeled into making a world where no woman feels the need to have an abortion, rather than a world where no woman who truly does need an abortion, and has come to this decision with her doctor and with God, is unable to have one safely.
Most pro-choice feminists are reasonable, empathic men and women who feel, as I’m sure you do, that they are only receiving attacks from the other side of the argument and not any sort of reasonable dialogue. Almost no one wants to deny any individual woman her right to grief, though it may get pushed aside sometimes in favor of making a point, just as the stories of all of the millions of women who do not regret their abortions do by the pro-life side. Surely none of us benefits from making this issue more simple than it is.
hera,
My sister (a nurse with two special needs children and multiple miscarriages) put it this way about abortion: If any other procedure had the same proportion and level of side-effects afterwards, it would’ve been banned immediately.
Nobody that I can remember has ever claimed every woman experiences trauma. So it is you who doesn’t even understand the pro-life position. But for all the caring about women in every other aspect of their lives, funny how pro-aborts just switch off if the cause of grief may have been abortion and abortion alone. You admit it can be traumatic but for some magical reason you claim it can never be the sole cause of grief. Why?
As for ‘choice’ – that word is sooooo misleading – the unborn get no choice, even if they are unborn women. Your ’empathy’ is meaningless to the millions slaughtered annually globally each year. With that knowledge, the only “reasonable” thing is to end abortion.
“You didn’t grieve your miscarriage. Ok. Were you terribly confused by others who did? Or by those telling you they were so sorry?”
Eh, I don’t think we told more than, oh, four people or so (not including medical personnel) about the miscarriage, partly because (at least on my part) of not particularly wanting to deal with unwanted sympathy. Frankly, the worst part of the whole experience was the medical effects on me – prolonged bleeding, resulting in anemia, resulting in a D&C after a few months, and, again frankly, if I had known when I started having abnormal bleeding with that pregnancy that it was going to terminate, I would have had an abortion at that point and tried to avoid the later problems. I do not regret the miscarriage, knowing that if I had not had it, I would not now have my younger son. Anybody else’s response to their own miscarriage is none of my business, unless they tell me about it, in which case I would probably offer the usual words of sympathy, and more if it were wanted – I am not good at the whole empathy bit, though, and I can’t imagine anybody using me as a shoulder to cry on.
Remember that I originally objected to the idea that the termination of a pregnancy, whether spontaneously or by artificial means, necessarily results in depression and grieving. If it doesn’t in the case of miscarriage, there is no reason to think that it necessarily does in the case of abortion.
An abortion kills a living child.
An abortion does not kill a child that has already died in the womb. That is called a miscarriage.
One cannot regret a miscarriage.
One can regret an abortion.
I grieve both.
Whether you object to the idea or not there are women that grieve miscarriage and women that don’t. I met one today. :)
There are women that regret and grieve their abortions and women that don’t.
In the case of abortion and miscarriage a child has died. There is no refuting that.
I will remind you that the Dutch have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world, and it is because they have comprehensive sex education, readily available birth control and a high rate of responsible use of it, a society where women and families receive more support than they do in the U.S., and therefore a society where abortion is frequently unnecessary.
The Dutch have more restrictive abortion laws than the US does. Proaborts who like to cite European countries as having lower abortion rates tend to fight against passing similar laws here. For example, the Dutch have a requirement for mandatory counseling that addresses alternatives to abortion and the welfare of the unborn child. There is a mandatory waiting period. Abortion is not permitted through all nine months as in the US.
Are there any proabort commenters here who would support mandated waiting periods and mandatory counseling that includes alternatives?
I said that I object to the idea that an abortion or miscarriage necessarily produces grief and depression, not to the idea that it can.
I have never lost a child. I have two children, both living. I lost an embryo, about six weeks. Yes, I do know what it looked like at the time; I had a transvaginal ultrasound to confirm embryonic death; I had an ultrasound before that, when its heart was still beating. There’s a pretty good chance that this embryo was never going to develop further, no matter what: possibly 50% or more of embryos lost through miscarriage carry genetic anomalies incompatible with life. I don’t find any purpose for me in mourning a potential that may never, given the genes that embryo carried from conception, have existed at all. I expect the whole thing would have been rougher if I’d been further along – my mother suffered a late miscarriage, which I gather was quite hard for her, although she confided to me later that it was probably just as well that she and my father did not have a third child.
I don’t consider it abnormal or weird or anything else for women other than myself to mourn a miscarriage in whatever way they need to or want to; normal for other people is not necessarily normal for me. But it is not true that the only normal way to respond to pregnancy loss of any sort is with depression and/or grieving, as stated in the post by beingkari that I replied to.
Incidentally, the article linked from “the emotional fallout from miscarriage, which feminists don’t like to talk about” appears to be about relative mental distress from abortion versus miscarriage, and I don’t quite see what it has to do with feminists liking or not liking to talk about distress from miscarriage.
You may object to whatever you wish.
Here is a 6 week old fetus
and a 7 week old fetus.
If that is not a child then what is he/she?
http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/6-7wkfetus.htm
That is what we would generally call an embryo – that is, post-blastocyst up until about the eighth week post-conception or ten weeks from LMP. As I said, not something I consider to be a child; a pre-child, at most. You may, of course, consider it to be anything you like.
Note that my objection is a matter of fact – the existence of at least one woman who does not react to a miscarriage/abortion with grief and/or depression disproves the statement that “When a naturally-occurring process is interrupted via natural miscarriage or abortion, the aftermath of the abrupt change in hormones is, at minimum, a case of depression for the mother”.
Consider it a grape. Fine by me.
If my three children were not children I would not grieve their deaths.
Goodnight, ledasmom. Nice to meet you.
there’s no such thing as a ‘pre-child’
You are human the moment you are conceived.
Human, yes. Child, no. If having human DNA were the same thing as being a person, most organ transplants would be ethically impossible (due to the status of the donor, not the status of the organ).
The only thing worse than grieving a miscarriage (I’ve had three) is not grieving a miscarriage.
Because that means the mother has detached herself emotionally from her offspring; she has desensitized herself to the reality of that child’s life, however brief.
What kind of mother doesn’t grieve the loss of a child, regardless of how it dies?
Ledasmom, since you are a mom, you already know a child is not an organ of the body; the child has his/her own body, with his/her own organs.
It’s one thing to take out an appendix or gall bladder (and of course, those things are done to save a life, not end one).
It’s a completely different thing to kill an unwanted baby.
Wow, Carla, those pictures are … I have no words.
The first picture looks like a tiny doll, except it’s a real person.
My husband’s dear grandmother, who treated me like her own grandchild, told me of miscarrying a baby in the 1930s, at home. She lost the baby very early in the pregnancy, yet she told me of seeing all its features as clear as day. She had no idea that babies developed that early and still marvelled at that — with tears in her eyes — when she was in her 90s.
She often said she looked forward to meeting that child (and finding out whether it was a boy or girl) when she got to Heaven.
For those who have lost a baby for any reason and need comfort, healing, and hope, I recommend this very inexpensive little book. A number of women have told me it helped them tremendously. I wish I had known about it when I miscarried my little ones.
I’ll Hold You in Heaven: Healings and Hope for the Parent of a Miscarried, Aborted, or Stillborn Child, by Dr. Jack Hayford
http://www.amazon.com/Ill-Hold-You-Heaven-Revision/dp/0830732594
(BTW, though the first review shows some similarities to my experience, I did not write it.)
Claire, I haven’t criticized your grief; why have you criticized my lack of grief?
What level of grief is acceptable to you? What’s the minimum of anguish I must endure to make my experience, in your eyes, normal?
CLAIRE!!
I’ll Hold You in Heaven is one of the most precious books I have ever read! Thank you for the link! I usually have a stack at my house. I give it to women grieving their miscarriages, abortions, or still born babies.
Thank you also for sharing the story of your husband’s grandmother.
I have to say that I smile every time I see or hear the name Claire. When I was young and working in a clothing store the manager needed me up at the register. She kept yelling, “Clarie!! Claire!! Claire!!” I did not respond as my name is Carla. :)
This is my story.
http://outcrywisconsin.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-story-at-faith-community-church.html
Hmph. Not only did I post this originally in the wrong thread, but now it’s broken! Sorry about that; fumble-fingers meet fumble-mind, and the rest is history! Let me try again:
Ledasmom,
If I could take a guess: some of the objections levelled against you involve the fact that a lack of grief is the exception, not the rule. I’m sure we could find someone who experienced no grief (or at least wasn’t conscious of any, or at least claimed to experience no grief) after killing their own 3-year-old daughter… but I think I’m safe in saying that such a person’s lack of grief is neither expected nor–forgive me–indicative of sanity. (Please don’t misunderstand: I’m not calling you insane; I use an extreme example, removed somewhat from your case, to illustrate a point more clearly.) When Kari wrote her comment, she was (correct me if I’m wrong, Kari) talking about the general rule of things, over and against the propaganda from the abortion-tolerant camp which often tries to deny any grief after the death of ANY unborn child (“Nothing to see here; move along! Grief would imply something wrong, and our agenda doesn’t allow that, thank you!”). It’s a bit like saying, “touch a hot stove, and you’ll soon be in pain!”; of course it doesn’t allow for the rare individual with no functional nerve endings… but really, did you expect it to do that? Just so, with the grief from a miscarriage (i.e. a child who dies in the womb); such grief is as expected as Wisconsin snow in winter.
Does that clarify?
Also: you wouldn’t happen to call yourself “pro-choice”, would you?
Ledasmom, after I had posted this post last night, I regretted the way I worded it. Unfortunately, by the time I thought of it, it was too late to edit it. It was also past my bedtime. This is what I wish I had said, as it more accurately reflects my thoughts:
——————————————–
It seems to me the only thing worse than grieving a miscarriage (I’ve had three) is not grieving a miscarriage.
It seems to me this would mean the mother had detached herself emotionally from her offspring, that she had desensitized herself to the reality of that child’s life, however brief.
How can a mother not grieve the loss of a child, regardless of how it dies?
—————————————–
Upon further reflection after posting my earlier comment last night, I realized that I can only view this subject through the lens of my own heart and experience, and that other women could obviously have a different viewpoint. I did not mean to sound so judgmental by stating my thoughts as fact instead of my opinion, and I apologize for that.
Carla, what a blessing to know that book is special to you, too! :)
Thanks so much for posting your story. I can’t wait to read it. God bless you for your strong witness here.
Claire,
Yes, that makes more sense. Thank you.
As I said, it was a very early miscarriage, and there had been bleeding over the course of a week or so, at least (don’t remember the details; it’s nine-ten years in the past). We weren’t particularly expecting a good outcome, so the lack of heartbeat on ultrasound wasn’t a shock – though seeing the embryo was pretty cool. No particular sense of attachment to the embryo, no.
And as I said, it would be awfully hard to regret it, since we wouldn’t have my younger son if I hadn’t miscarried that pregnancy.
And as I said, it would be awfully hard to regret it, since we wouldn’t have my younger son if I hadn’t miscarried that pregnancy.
I was conceived shortly after my mother had a miscarriage, and I don’t see her feelings of loss or sadness over that miscarriage as some kind of rejection of me. I see it as her wishing the circumstances had been different and both of us could have been born. If she said, “I don’t regret having a miscarriage at all because otherwise you wouldn’t have been born,” I’d find her to be a creepy and somewhat heartless person who thought of children as interchangeable, rather than unique beings.
I think that the perception of a woman who doesn’t regret or feel sorrow over a miscarriage as creepy or heartless is what ledasmom is talking about. People react in different ways to different situations. It is possible for someone to be pro-life and still feel little emotional connection an unborn child, particularly in the first trimester or so. For a woman like this, the pragmatic reality of an earlier pregnancy being carried to term preventing you from bearing the child you currently know and love and care for – because that is, of course, reality - could easily outweigh other factors that go into affecting an emotional reaction. Personal emotions are highly individual and, as long as they don’t cloud intellectual judgment or logical reasoning, should be respected or at least left alone, IMO.
My daughter who died in my abortion and my two miscarried sons take their rightful place in our family. My children know about their brothers and sister and hang up their little stockings every Christmas. I still have the ultrasounds for two of them. Their names are written in the sibling section of the baby books and in our family Bible. They ask how old each child might be had they lived. They are part of our family.
Some might think it creepy that I remember those babies and cherish their short lives. Oh well.
I don’t think it creepy for those that don’t grieve their children. Just sort of sad.
Don’t think it’s sad, Carla! I don’t think it’s creepy that you remember and mourn your chlidren who were never born. I don’t think it’s sad, either. It’s sad that they were never born, but not sad that you remember them. It’s just you. :)
With my mom, it would be creepy and heartless if she didn’t regret having a miscarriage, because she and my dad went through ten years and lots of infertility treatments trying to get pregnant.
Alexandra,
I am me. That is true. I try to do the best I can to be me. :)
And you are the sweetest Alexandra I know!!
I’ve been pondering…
Some people prefer the term “anti-choice” instead of “pro-life”. Many of them take great pains and go to great lengths to avoid the term “pro-life”.
The term “anti-” indicates negativity while “pro-” indicates positivity, so it suits their cause.
Has anyone ever considered the term “anti-baby”?
After all, if the baby is perceived as ‘the problem’, if the baby is ‘the enemy’, if the baby must be killed in order for someone’s life to go on as scheduled – despite the fact the baby is the innocent party; s/he did not ask to be conceived — it seems to me the term “anti-baby” is the most concise, the most accurate, the most truthful, when speaking of a positive view of abortion on demand.
If the pen is indeed mightier than the sword, it seems to me it behooves us to speak the truth when we address this subject.
I am a liberal feminist, and a pro-choicer and I fully acknowledge the sorrow, loss and guilt that can be (and often is) felt after having an abortion. When I am advising women about abortion, I always take care to include this aspect and to suggest support and counselling before, during and after having an abortion.
Equally, there are some women who experience none of these emotions – whether they have had an abortion, or a miscarriage.
I think its dishonest for somebody on either side of the abortion debate not to acknowledge both truths.
I’m sure there are feminists or pro-choicers out there who do trivialise the feelings that surround an abortion, but I wish people wouldn’t talk as though this is an essential part of being either a feminist or a pro-choicer. I don’t see the use in bludgeoning a strawman version of your debating opponent to death! Now that is dishonesty, too.
“Equally, there are some women who experience none of these emotions – whether they have had an abortion, or a miscarriage.”
Can I also just iterate how offensive it is to label someone who feels this way as “heartless”, “unable to love children”, or “insane”.
Different cultures, different women – have differenty ideas about what it means to be pregnant, about what the child means, about the beginning of life, about the beginning of love, and about how things are “meant to be”.
I think the important lesson is not to devalue, insult or ignore the way that any woman feels about her pregnancy or how it ends.
Jen, I’m glad to see you recognize that deep regret and grief can and do accompany abortion for at least some women. Unfortunately, this is far from the only reaction that supporters of legal abortion have towards women who publicly express their regret. Do you really think that NARAL’s website or Ms. Magazine would publish testimonies from women who regret their abortions? At least one Planned Parenthood counsellor would rather write articles condemning them, before going on to compare the decision to abort to the decision to eat fast food:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/reader-diaries/2009/04/13/trusting-women
I’ve also seen abortion proponents dismiss these emotions as hormonal, or blame abortion opponents for “stigmatizing” abortion. I’ve even seen someone say something along the lines of that “the best thing about abortion is that if you regret it, you can just try again.” The overall attitude seems to be that no woman ever makes the wrong choice, even if she regrets it afterward. The comments above also show that people, including (female) medical doctors, often act insensitively towards women who have had miscarriages.
I’m aware that some women don’t regret their abortions (or, at least, deny feeling this way). That doesn’t change what abortion does to an unborn human being. Even if all women felt satisfied with their decision, the ethics of abortion would be unchanged.
Can I also just iterate how offensive it is to label someone who feels this way as “heartless”, “unable to love children”, or “insane”.
I wouldn’t automatically label them. Judging a person and judging a choice are two different things.
Different cultures, different women – have differenty [sic] ideas about what it means to be pregnant, about what the child means, about the beginning of life, about the beginning of love, and about how things are “meant to be”.
Yes, these different ideas would probably explain (in part) why some women don’t regret abortion without being “heartless”, “unable to love children”, or “insane”. Lack of consensus, however, does not translate to lack of truth. Different cultures and different people once had different ideas about the shape of the Earth (and still do, to a certain extent). The science, however, clearly shows that the Earth is not flat but approximately spherical. Similarly, as early at 1933, Dr. Alan Guttmacher (the founder and namesake of Planned Parenthood’s research arm) wrote the following in his book Life in the Making on the first page:
“We of today know that man is born of sexual union; that he starts life as an embryo within the body of the female; and that the embryo is formed from the fusion of two single cells, the ovum and the sperm.”
It gets better:
“This all seems so simple and evident to us that it is difficult to picture a time when it was not part of the common knowledge.”
Modern embryology textbooks and top-level pro-choice philosophers like David Boonin and Peter Singer are on the same page as pro-lifers on when life begins.
I think the important lesson is not to devalue, insult or ignore the way that any woman feels about her pregnancy or how it ends.
I agree, and Alexandra said it pretty well. The issue is psychologically complex, and no two people are the same.