Feminist Majority Foundation to offer free condom placement
Well, that’s all they have left to do.
The Feminist Majority Foundation released a remarkably indicting statement today.
Entitled, “Unintended pregnancies linked to ineffective contraception use,” it admits “many” baby-averse but sexually active females don’t use the contraceptives they know they should or are sloppy or lazy about them. Well, that’s not quite how FMF put it…
A recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey of over 7,000 women revealed that many women, despite their desire to avoid pregnancy, fail to use birth control or do so improperly and ineffectively. The CDC reports that approximately 50% of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended.
Though oral contraception is 92-99% effective when used correctly, many women who rely on this method fail to take the pill consistently – at the same time everyday. Similarly, condoms are reported to be about have a 95% effectiveness rate, but their actual effectiveness is about 85% due to frequent improper usage.
FMF links to a CDC report that indicates by “many” it actually meant “darn near all”:
In the US, almost half of all pregnancies are unintended…. [M]ost women of reproductive age use birth control. In 2002, 98% of women who had ever had sexual intercourse had used at least one method of birth control. However, 7.4% of women who were currently at risk of unintended pregnancy were not using a contraceptive method.
If half of all pregnancies are accidents, but 98% of sexually active females not only know about but have demonstrated they can use contraceptives, then only 2% of unintended pregnancies are of mothers who are completely ignorant about contraception. These would have to include young girls who are victims of rape and incest.
What, unintended pregnancies are not entirely the fault of abstinence education, or mostly, or even somewhat? Rather, they’re predominantly the fault of usually unmarried (83%) young women (18-29) who have been taught how to be sexually active but lack the maturity or wherewithal to protect themselves?
The CDC adds:
Since 2000, several new methods of birth control have become available in the US, including the levonorgestrel-releasing intrauterine system, the hormonal contraceptive patch, the hormonal contraceptive ring, the hormonal implant, a 91-day regimen of oral contraceptives, two new barrier methods, and a new form of female sterilization.
So there is a wide array of contraceptive options available, something for everyone.
One other point. Guttmacher states “about half” of abortions are repeats. So its post-abortive comprehensive sex ed is also a pathetic failure – at least 50%, not counting mothers becoming accidentally pregnant again who decide against an abortion redo.
Now Planned Parenthood is spearheading a drive for a government panel to declare contraceptives “preventive” medicine, so they’ll be provided free as part of Obamacare?
Due to the dismal failure of the 1960s contraceptive mentality social experiment, part of the cost of this “preventive” care will have to be employing workers to physically dispense the Pill every day in little cups woman to woman or stand by for condom placement.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If Obamacare pays for contraceptives as preventive care, I want Obamacare to pay for my toothbrushes, toothpaste,and dental floss.
It’s worth mentioning that what they are calling “contraception” often kills unborn children, so their claim that it reduces abortion is disingenuous at best. Any post about hormonal birth control should mention this, and you should never refer to hormonal birth control as contraception.
Ever heard of girls being pressured into sex by their boyfriends? The famous line, “If you love me, you’ll have sex without a condom?” Or birth control sabotage? Happens more than we’d like to think. But then again, women are completely in control of proper preventive measures, but completely vulnerable fools when they wash up on the abortionist’s doorstep. Right. Men are just as reponsible for lack of consistent birth control use. And yes, mistakes happen. What do you propose, punishing people with a baby if they goof up?
Megan, I’d love to see you look an adult who was once an “unwanted baby” in the eye and say, “Your existence was a punishment to your parents.” I say this because I know you’d never have the guts to do it.
At least it seems we agree that women can be vulnerable…
Ha, ask half the kids in juvenile detention whether they feel loved by their parents, and you’ll see the point.
And back to the distortions:
Unintended vs. intended pregnancies in Mississippi, a hotbed of conservative activity:
http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/cPONDER/default.aspx?page=DisplayAllYears&state=14&year=0&category=17&variable=16
Hmmm
Carla! My friend who had an abortion last year & who has been stricken with infertility problems is finally pregnant!
I knew she could forgive herself! Oh I’m so happy for her!
None of my babies are “punishment” thank you. They are people. And I won’t consider myself “punished” if my mother suffers an “unplanned” stroke and I suddenly become responsible for yet another LIFE either….
Megan, don’t you realize how insulting that comment is to over 80% of sexually active young women? It implies they have no CHOICE when it comes to sex, EVER, and so the only way to save them from the horrific punishment of motherhood (insult to all mothers) is to give them the equally, if not more so, pressured “CHOICE” of feticide. All women are victims. Victims of choice, victims of no choice…. they’re just poor weak pathetic fools…. except when they’re lying spread eagled on the abortionists table with a Dremel between their legs. Then they’re “empowered”. Please.
Girls CAN say NO. They can say “if you loved me, you’d respect me and not use me for sex”.
Dear FMF: Condoms don’t heal a broken heart!
In a report that will surprise few of Bush’s critics on the issue, the Centers for Disease Control says years of falling rates of teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted disease infections under previous administrations were reversed or stalled in the Bush years. According to the CDC, birth rates among teenagers aged 15 or older had been in decline since 1991 but are up sharply in more than half of American states since 2005. The study also revealed that the number of teenage females with syphilis has risen by nearly half after a significant decrease while a two-decade fall in the gonorrhea infection rate is being reversed. The number of AIDS cases in adolescent boys has nearly doubled.”
Sioko,
Women who are pressured into either abortion or pregnancy, whether directly or by having a lack of access to appropriate resources, do not exercise as much choice as women who give birth or abort of their own volition. If abortion is criminalized, how would it not be a form of punishment to tell women with unwanted pregnancies, “Oops, you messed up, now you’re going to be a mom?” Sure, some women might accept this situation and make the best of it, but there will also be many, many angry pregnant women.
Due to the dismal failure of the 1960s contraceptive mentality social experiment, part of the cost of this “preventive” care will have to be employing workers to physically dispense the Pill every day in little cups woman to woman or stand by for condom placement.
This reminds me a whole lot of Huxley’s Brave New World. Here’s a piece I wrote on it a while back.
http://subcreators.com/blog/2009/11/26/that-lovely-pink-glass-tower/
Huxley understood that even constant government drill in contraceptive taking isn’t going to be enough — that abortion follows contraception as closely as night follows day.
Cranium:
If you’ll check the abortion numbers from all the states reporting to the CDC in ’05 and compare teen abortion rates between the states accepting abstinence-only funds vs. those rejecting it, you’ll find that abortion rates for teens are 46% HIGHER in states which reject abstinence-only funding.
hrmmmm….. nope, that’s not actually an improvement, especially considering all the physical and mental damage that often occurs after making such a “choice”.
A few examples:
Journal of Anxiety Disorders: women who aborted their unintended pregnancies were 30 percent more likely to subsequently report all the symptoms of generalized anxiety disorder than those women who had carried their unintended pregnancies to term.
American Journal of Orthopsychiatry in 2002: showed that the rate of mental health claims for women who aborted was 17 percent higher than those who had carried their children to term.
Southern Medical Journal 2002: the risk of death from suicide is two to six times higher for women who have had abortions when compared, again, with women who have given birth.
I have more….
The real problem PP and the like have with abstinence-only education is that it takes such a bite out of their bottom line. They could care less what effect their “service” has on the women themselves after they walk out of the clinic.
And what other causal factors were at play?
I’m sure you have more, pity they’re so out of date.
http://www.suite101.com/content/high-std-rates-abstinence-ed-link-a53691
Lori, abortion will also follow not using contraception, even more.
Women who try to separate sex from procreation are surprised to find themselves pregnant. The mentality that sex comes without attachments is foolish and dangerous in so many ways. However, when we embrace the gravity and the true importance of intimacy, sexual and otherwise, we are able to fully share in the gift we have been given!
Jill, I respect your blog very much, but you know as well as many of us do that “the pill” and other hormonal contraceptives are NOT preventative even IF they were used correctly 100% of the time. Why go down this rabbit hole?
Megan
November 15th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
What do you propose, punishing people with a baby if they goof up?
Spoken like a true and honest member of Barack Hussein Obama Fan Club! He also thinks that a baby is a punishment…
MaryRose
November 15th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Women who try to separate sex from procreation are surprised to find themselves pregnant. The mentality that sex comes without attachments is foolish…
Exactly, MaryRose, thank you! I couldn’t said better. Pregnancy is a natural consequence to sex, so no matter how many and what kind of contraceptions a woman ir using, she should still keep in mind that no contraception is 100% effective and she can still get pregnant. That’s why I oppose contraception, it creates a false sense of security, leads to unintended pergnancies and abortions. There is NOTHING wrong with abstinence and respecting yourself and your body while you wait for a relationship in which you would like to have a child! Tried and tested!
“There is NOTHING wrong with abstinence and respecting yourself and your body while you wait for a relationship in which you would like to have a child! Tried and tested!”
Agreed, and there is also nothing wrong with respecting yourself and your body while you have enjoyable and recreational sex with another consenting adult.
Agreed, and there is also nothing wrong with respecting yourself and your body while you have enjoyable and recreational sex with another consenting adult.
If you see nothing wrong with using another human being and letting yourself be used (quite the opposite of self-respect)- but you can’t really argue that killing a third, unconsenting human being that is the consequence of your recreational activity isn’t wrong. I know you do argue that, but it defies all concepts of good and evil. How you can’t see that creating a person and killing that person isn’t only wrong, it’s ridiculous- that’s just mind-boggling, dude.
Furthermore, if the you were the one that would be killed as a consequence of two people having enjoyable and recreational sex, I’m sure your opinion would change.
hal
November 16th, 2010 at 8:15 am
recreational sex with another consenting adult.
Sex is not recreation, but procreation!
I don’t have any problem with sex for recreation, as long as the married couple recognize that sex can and often does cause babies and will welcome that child appropriately. Two people who are not married can not offer a child the home/family that he/she deserves- not that this is a good excuse for killing the child. Moreover it’s a good reason to not have sex outside of marriage.
Austin, point taken, thanks.
MaryRose wrote, “Jill, I respect your blog very much, but you know as well as many of us do that “the pill” and other hormonal contraceptives are NOT preventative even IF they were used correctly 100% of the time. Why go down this rabbit hole?”
MaryRose, there is a misunderstanding of my post. You and I agree 100% here.
And in some cases a couple who happen to be married cannot offer a child the things the child deserves, either. And sometimes a couple who may not be legally married can.
Agreed, and there is also nothing wrong with respecting yourself and your body while you have enjoyable and recreational sex with another consenting adult
Well Hal,
Do you want to know the physiological/emotional/hormonal problems with that statement or, in some faiths (especially Jewish and Christian ones) the moral problems with that statement? I can go either way.
Sure, some women might accept this situation and make the best of it, but there will also be many, many angry pregnant women
Megan,
You like to use this statement as if it’s some form of deciding factor. It really isn’t.
As I’ve stated in another post, someone’s always going to be angry over something that is or isn’t legal.
The murderer that doesn’t get away with the murder will probably be angry over the fact that they are getting punished for something they view is perfectly fine.
A kid isn’t gonna like that it’s not all right with his or her parents that they go around hitting people.
Drivers often get mad on the road for whatever reason: being cut off, not being able to turn at a place they wish they could, accidents, etc…
Someone is always going to be mad about something that is or isn’t legal that is or isn’t right, that is or isn’t acceptable. It’s because a lot of times we all want to do whatever we want whenever we want and that just doesn’t work because if we did, it would render chaos. We humans need order and laws to function as a working society. Without order, things would be mindless chaos. (And things get crazy enough without that, in my opnion).
“Well Hal,
Do you want to know the physiological/emotional/hormonal problems with that statement or, in some faiths (especially Jewish and Christian ones) the moral problems with that statement? I can go either way.”
People need to take responsibility for their own physiological/emotional/hormonal issues. That’s what free adults are expected to do. If sex outside marriage is not for you, no problem. If it is, accept the pros and cons. [note: one could still argue that if the woman becomes pregnant in such a situation she should not abort. That’s a different issue.]
That’s the thing, Hal. You aren’t accepting the pros and cons because when the “con” of a baby comes from your recreational sex, you have that child killed. Once again, if it were you that died, I think your opinion would change.
Ha, ask half the kids in juvenile detention whether they feel loved by their parents, and you’ll see the point.
Megan, my son was in juvie for nearly three years. He was an angry, confused kid, despite the fact that he grew up in a middle class home with two parents and a sister who loved him very much. He had trips abroad, summer camp, and lots of love and attention, but he just chose the wrong path. I really don’t know what his problem was. Sometimes parents do the best they can and kids just do what they want to do, consequences be damned. I find your comments hurtful.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say — that troubled kids are “unwanted” and “should have” been aborted?
Phillymiss, I wondered the same thing.
If my mom was angry about being pregnant, then I’d prefer she leave the hospital without me AFTER DELIVERY. Don’t want to raise a child, then don’t. But don’t kill a child who is alive and has every right to his birthday.
In an earlier comment, the poster also mentioned girls getting pressured into having sex. When that happens, the girl has a problem. Killing babies does not solve that problem. After the child is dead, how has anyone done anything to solve the problem of a guy who puts on pressure and a girl who gives in despite her wishes? This hypothetical couple needs something other than a dead baby. No one can adopt a dead baby.
Ha, ask half the kids in juvenile detention whether they feel loved by their parents, and you’ll see the point
Okay, ask half the kids in juvenile detention if they would like to be dismembered with forceps and you’ll see MY point. Death is not a good substitute for love.
10 million couples will happily adopt that baby. The idea that it’s abortion or parenthood is a clever lie that people use to justify abortion by saying that mother’s are unfit or unwilling. Fine. There are 10 million who are more than fit and more than willing.
Gee, Megan….
ever heard of something called ADOPTION? It’s not ok to kill your child because “YOU” have “problems”. Killing your child doesn’t “magically” change YOUR life. It just SUDDENLY makes you the mother/father of a dead child.
One of the girls I work with has Turner Syndrome and therefore cannot get pregnant. She and her husband were recently able to adopt a beautiful baby girl because the biological parents recognized that they were not capable of raising the child but still chose to give her life. When I get home from Boise it’s finally my chance to get some cuddle time with the newest little member of our hospital staff family… I can’t wait to see our new precious Addison!!
My daughter is not a punishment, no matter how advantageous it would’ve been for me and her father to have her killed in an abortion. It’s terrible that you can think of another human in such a manner.
People need to take responsibility for their own physiological/emotional/hormonal issues. That’s what free adults are expected to do. If sex outside marriage is not for you, no problem. If it is, accept the pros and cons. [note: one could still argue that if the woman becomes pregnant in such a situation she should not abort. That’s a different issue.]
Hal,
Some people don’t have all the facts. In my experience as a Chastity Speaker, I came across teens that hadn’t been told anything but “Don’t have sex outside of marriage.” They knew a little about AIDS and STDs and STIs (STIs are Sexually Transmitted Infections). Even some adults don’t know a lot about sexual intercourse and its affect on the human’s emotional/psychological and if you believe in the spiritual, spiritual and emotional health of a person.
Some people even think condoms and other birth control methods meant you’d be fine…but they didn’t realize those methods could fail (and sometimes do–I’ve met several people who had a method of artificial birth control NOT prevent a pregnancy and let’s face it, other than abstainance I don’t know of a single birth control method that prevents STDs or STIs). (Or the impact hormonal birth control can have on a body). Some people don’t bother reading/listening to the warnings and some don’t understand the warnings (depending on how they’re worded and where a person hears/reads about them).
The other thing that I’ve learned is that A LOT of people don’t realize the during an orgasm the hormone, Oxytocin is released in a woman (I think this can happen in a man, too, but since my information on oxytocin in men is limited, I can’t say this for sure), which binds her emotionally and psychologically to the man she’s having sexual intercourse with. This bond doesn’t go away. The woman might not even be consciously aware of it, either. The thing about this bond is that the more sexual partners a woman has, the more “memories” her body retains and the less she’s likely to be able to bond fully with a man–even her own husband.
A lot of chastity speakers use this analogy: Take a piece of duct tape. Stick it to something. When you peel it away it takes bits and pieces of what it was stuck to with it…keep doing that over and over and suddenly it’s so chalk full of bits and pieces of all the different things it was stuck to it won’t stick anymore. (Jason Evert is one such chastity speaker who uses this example. http://www.chastity.com and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Evert. Christopher West talks about sex and it’s affect on a person’s emotional/psychological/spiritual/physiological health: http://www.christopherwest.com Mary Beth Bonacci also has several things available about sex before marriage and how it affects a person: http://www.reallove.net/index2.asp?CID=1 I haven’t read/heard as much of her material as I have of Christopher West and Jason Evert–although I read part of her book, “Real Love” and decided I liked West and Evert’s approaches better–Jason Evert’s wife, Crystallina has also done Chastity talks, including doing some with Jason–I saw one on VHS or DVD called “Romance Without Regret” that was filmed 11 days before their wedding–I also saw Jason speak on his own in 2001 and read at least 2 of his books).
This can happen to women…and it can even happen the very first time the woman has sexual intercourse.
The woman’s body is designed to develop a recognition of a man’s sperm (particularly her husband’s) let’s say the woman had other sexual partner(s) before she gets married. There’s potential that her body will never form a recognition of her husband’s sperm, so her body will reject it and she won’t be able to have a child with her husband (even if she desires one).
Men have some oxytocin, too. But, like I said, I don’t know as much about how it works in men as I do about how it works in women.
Oxytocin is the same hormone that bonds a mother to her baby when she breastfeeds.
Men also have the hormone vassopression. Based on some of the reading I’ve done on vassopressin this hormone helps the man bond with a woman but it also is supposed to encourage maturity and the whole “protect and provide” for the woman (wife) and any children. It’s got that whole “Hello, I’m about to be a father, gotta make sure I provide for my kid” type of kick in the rear some men experience. (This isn’t the only way vassopressin works, but it’s one of the ways).
Wikipedia has some information on how Oxytocin works in bonding (and some of the synethic forms). Oxytocin is a strange hormone (in my opinion) and in small doses seems to be relatively safe (although like with most anything there are health risks, at least according to this article): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin
Wikipedia’s article on Vassopressin doesn’t seem to touch much on the bonding associated with Vassopressin, but still looks like an interesting read. There’s a link to it on the Oxytocin article.
There’s some interesting things associated with Vassopressin. I’ve read things that call it the “monogamy hormone” articles that talk about people researching the link between Vassopressin and aggression (that was something I hadn’t seen before in my research–I wonder how recent that is–so far I haven’t found anything that says how long people have been researching that link), to things like sex and fatherhood.
The bottom line is: if you look at the way humans bond it’s obvious that in our bodies, at least, we’re set up for monogamy (whether we personally believe this or not, whether we’re consciouslly aware of it or not).
Hormones are sometimes tricky things–everyone’s hormonal make up is different and I’ve heard that our hormonal make up can change from one day to the next (that was mind blowing, at least for me).
Bottom line: Recreational sex is never just plain recreation whether we’re consciously aware of the changes in us from the experience or not.
Thank you Mother in Texas!
Very nice post!
Take a piece of duct tape. Stick it to something. When you peel it away it takes bits and pieces of what it was stuck to with it…keep doing that over and over and suddenly it’s so chalk full of bits and pieces of all the different things it was stuck to it won’t stick anymore.
I did want to comment that after I was that piece of duct tape that was stuck with bits and pieces, Jesus still wanted me. A lost and lonely and used up, promiscuous girl was wanted and loved by Him. That is the heart of the gospel.
10 million couples will happily adopt that baby.
Jacqueline, that figure seems rather high. Don’t get me wrong — I am very prolife and pro-adoption, and I’m not trying to be combative — but what kind of babies do they want? “Blue ribbon” (white male) babies? Would these hypothetical couples want a special needs child, a black or Latino baby, or a mixed race infant? A handicapped baby? It seems that many white couples are willing to travel thousands of miles for an Asian baby, but wouldn’t adopt a black or Latino baby here.
Mother in Texas, That was great! Thank you! :) (ps. I love Christopher West!)
Mother in Texas,
Thanks for the links. The Wiki article on Oxytocin should be an interesting read even for people who are not convinced by other sources on the subject.
WOO HOO, XALISAE IS BACK! :D
Phillymiss
I have very dear friends who prayed and searched and gladly accepted the blessing of a baby girl, who also happens to be black. I have dear friends who’s son was a “special needs” child with severe behavioral issues when he was adopted by them and are now a happy family, issues not withstanding :)
I would gladly adopt any child offered me, even an addicted Latino/black baby with cerebral palsy. Or a 4-5yr old taking out his/her frustrations on the world because they’ve never felt loved. There are a couple families in my fellowship praying for the opportunity to do just that. There are 2 families just in my small fellowship joyfully fostering children and several families happily choosing to work in children’s homes with the seriously disturbed and angry youth (and getting beaten up alot too) just for the opportunity to show them they are LOVED regardless of their past. And this is just one small corner of America, a small example. We are out here. Waiting. Trudging through red tape and parents who change their minds (thank God and God be with them) and waiting periods, and thousands of dollars of fees….
10 million may not be an exact number…. but it’s certainly not unrepresentative. There are ALOT of us out here.
To say that contraceptives “kill babies” is not only ludicrous,but insane.
Anti-choicers are pathetically ignorant and misinformed about birth control methods.
Saying that a pill can “kill a baby” is like saying that throwing out one of the many nuts and bolts which go into the making of an automobile is “destroying a car”.
No,it’s not a good idea for people to be sexually promiscuous and irresponsible,
but the fact remains that many are,and always have been.
But it’s totally unrealistic to ecpect people to have sex only within marriage and not to use any means of cotraception. But this is the appallingly foolish and misguided demand of the Roman Catholic church and other religious conservatives.
And people who are both opposed to abortion and want to make contraceptives illegal are
imbeciles. They are also a bunch of self-righteous busybodies who think they have the right to meddle with other people’s sex lives,and they also want the government in our bedrooms.
It disgusts me to see conservatives in America who are calling for “freedom” and don’t want the government to interfere with our lives but who want to make abortion and contraceptives illegal and to have the government in our bedrooms. This is the rakest hypocrisy.
With freedom like theirs,who needs tyranny?
And people who are both opposed to abortion and want to make contraceptives illegal are imbeciles.
Well, thank heavens that, according to Robert Berger, I am NOT an imbecile! :D
I don’t see a need for making contraceptives illegal. While I do believe that the Pill can cause unintended abortion, I believe that the possibility of an occurrence is miniscule. What typically happens is that if the barrier fails, a child is conceived. I don’t like the Pill because I believe it wreaks havoc on women’s bodies (as evidenced by my own testimonial early on when I used the Pill for the 1st 2 years of my marriage before I knew the mechanism of it and as evidenced by the testimonials of several friends). But to push to make it illegal? No, I’m not into that.
they also want the government in our bedrooms
Tell me, Robert, if I as the taxpayer have to pay for your STD treatment or your abortion, how is that NOT getting government into your bedroom? Sorry to break this to ya, but things that happen in the bedroom (or Vegas) just do not stay there. They affect society at large.
I would rather pay tax money for providing contraceptives and abortion than see the catastrophic results of making abortion illegal in America. That would also waste infinitely more money than trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
And yes,many conservatives DO want the government in our bedrooms. Like other pro-choicers,I don’t want to see a large number of women going to dangerous back-alley abortionists and risking their lives and health, and to see more and more women die from botched illegal abortions,and to see more and more children left without mothers because of this.
Anti-choicers delude themselves into thinking that making abortion illegal will do any good for America.It won’t. They are in denial.They don’t realize that if abortion ever become illegal again here, the number of abortions will actually increase greatly.
And there’s another factor. How will the US government enforce the law? It won’t be able to. Enforcing laws against abortion is absolutely impossible,because women will always find a way to have illegal abortions. Remember prohibition? The possible illegality of abortion in the future will be no more effective in stopping abortion than prohibition was in stopping alcohol consumption.
The US government will waste billions in the futile attempt to stop abortion, and have to turn America into a police state like Orwell’s 1984 in the attempt. Organized crime will no doubt get involved with providing illegtal abortions,too,and make a fortune. The Mob will be profoundly greatful to the incredibly foolsih anti-choice movement if it is ever able to make abortion illegal again.
Anti-choicers,be careful what you ask for.
But it’s totally unrealistic to ecpect people to have sex only within marriage and not to use any means of cotraception. But this is the appallingly foolish and misguided demand of the Roman Catholic church and other religious conservatives.
My husband and me had sex only within marriage and the only contraception we used was NFP (which worked wonders), so what that makes us – foolish or misguided? And, shock horror, we managed to abstain from sex throughout our entire relationship and engagement before marriage. That must be some sort of “denying of sexual pleasure for more than a month human rights abuse” or something, according to pro-aborts who want to have sex all the time with anyone without a single consequence. Well, sorry guys, but sex HAS consequences – either emotional/psychological, either pregnancy, either STD/STI, just to name a few. Just like contraception does. And to claim that it’s all SOO very consequence free is foolish and misguided. Wishful thinking and nothing more.
To say that contraceptives “kill babies” is not only ludicrous,but insane.
Anti-choicers are pathetically ignorant and misinformed about birth control methods.
Saying that a pill can “kill a baby” is like saying that throwing out one of the many nuts and bolts which go into the making of an automobile is “destroying a car”.
Robert,
So, you’re comparing human life to a car. Well, you’re not the first person, and I doubt you’ll be the last person to do so.
Human life is not an automobile. We’re not made for “test drives” and we’re not made to be “tossed in the junkyard” when something isn’t quite right (that may or may not be “fixed” or “cured”).
Human beings are alive, thinking, feeling, emotive creatures with a dignity given to them by God and nature.
Now that I’ve gotten THAT out of the way…
Some people don’t believe life begins at the moment of conception. But, for those who do, aritifical birth control kills a baby when the egg and sperm have joined together (conception) thus creating a new life. That’s where pro-lifers get that.
As for being educated on artificial birth control, it might surprise you just how well educated some pro-lifers are on artificial birth control and its risks. I can provide you with a site that has pamphlets written by a medical doctor on the risks and problems of artificial birth control (Go here:
http://onemoresoul.com/contraception/risks-consequences/what-a-woman-should-know-about-birth-control.html
http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/women-at-high-risk-of-significant-bone-loss-on-injectable-birth-control-identified.html
http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/study-abortion-contraception-raise-breast-cancer-risk.html).
Furthermore, all you need do is look at the PAGES of warnings to know they aren’t the savior people think they are.
Pro-lifers aren’t against people having choices as so popularly protrayed. We’re all for people having choices, but we’re AGAINST WRONG choices and abortion IS a wrong choice. We’ve spent a slew of posts (and keep posting and reposting) the reasons WHY we say this. I expect you’re capable of going and reading those reasons. If not, do say so and we’ll reiterate them for you.
I think what we need to do is go back to finding the dignity in human life and respecting one another. The lack of respect for one’s self and another is rampant in society.
The moment we give consent to treat each other as casual commodities of our own pleasure is the moment we give up some of the most precious thing about ourselves and others: the dignity of life. (Abortion treats pregnancy and the pre-born baby like a tumor rather than a human being).
Abortion does NOTHING to improve or encourage dignity of life or even respect or self respect. It says “It’s all about me, me, me” It says “It doesn’t matter what else happens, just as long as I have my way, the way I want it, how I want it, when I want it and who cares who gets hurt in the process as long as I get what I want right now.”
Life is a challenge at times. It has stresses in it. The moment we stop looking for HEALTHY ways of dealing with those stresses and challenges is the moment adults behave like children and teenagers don’t get an opportunity to rise up and show just how capable they are of becoming incredible adults.
It’s a disservice to ourselves and humanity.
Phillymiss,
Yes, some kids end up in juvie despite coming from the most loving of homes. But based on my Dad’s testimony (he worked closely w/ jd centers for many years), an overwhelming number of them come from overwhelmed families with completely uninvolved parents. Many women had children for the sake of holding together a relationship or marriage and just couldn’t deal with motherhood. There is no retrospective “she should have aborted/she should have put her baby up for adoption.” That’s not how it works. The kids are here and need to be cared for. But for future women in similar circumstances, it’s important for them to really consider the consequences of having a baby. That having a baby to improve a relationship is probably a bad idea. Or having a baby out of some sense of fetal obligation, despite crummy life circumstances, might not turn out to be all sunshine and rainbows.
Saying that a pill can “kill a baby” is like saying that throwing out one of the many nuts and bolts which go into the making of an automobile is “destroying a car”.
Robert,
The pill sometimes creates an inhospitable environment for implantation. I’d say a better analogy would be planting a bomb in a tunnel that detonates as a car enters it, thereby destroying the car.
Carla, Mary Rose and Janet–
You’re quite welcome.
Mary Rose–Christopher West is incredible human being and I’m privileged to have heard him speak on more than one occasion.
Vita,
You’ve told your story before. I’m glad you find your match. But what if people don’t find that one person they want to settle down with forever? Should these people never seek intimacy or sex? And what about college kids who get married at age 18 so they can have sex? Know a few lovebirds who’ve gone down that route, and the outcome isn’t that pretty. But whatevs, their decision. Why should we care?
The problem with your worldview is that it’s none of your business what consenting adults do in their bedroom. Married women get abortions too, so enough with the assumption that “promiscuity” is the sole cause unwanted pregnancy. Sometimes married couples just want to enjoy each other and not worry about kids, or feel unable to afford/take care of them. Does that offend your understanding of marriage? And marriage can be profoundly isolating. Buh-bye living with friends, time to turn the attention to building a fam. Uh, no thanks, not right now.
I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation in the 21st century.
But for future women in similar circumstances, it’s important for them to really consider the consequences of having a baby. That having a baby to improve a relationship is probably a bad idea. Or having a baby out of some sense of fetal obligation, despite crummy life circumstances, might not turn out to be all sunshine and rainbows.
Megan,
I highly agree that women should think before having sex and shouldn’t have children just because they think it’ll fix a bad situation. That’s why education and help for these women is so important. That’s why HEALTHY alternatives to recreational sex and abortion and artificial contraception is so important. If a woman should contract a health problem as a result of using artificial birth control that won’t help their situation.
But abortion won’t help these women learn, and abortion won’t fix their circumstances anymore than getting pregnant will. They have to be willing to get the help they need.
I’ve seen kids demonstrate the sticky tape exercise. Yep, perpetuates the idea that girls who experiment sexually are hoes. Guys get off the hook because it’s more culturally acceptable for men to be more sexually experienced. Does a real lot for the sixteen-year-old female psyche, being told she’s a piece of used-up plastic.
Sometimes married couples just want to enjoy each other and not worry about kids, or feel unable to afford/take care of them. Does that offend your understanding of marriage? And marriage can be profoundly isolating. Buh-bye living with friends, time to turn the attention to building a fam. Uh, no thanks, not right now.
I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation in the 21st century.
There’s ways a married couple can keep track of the woman’s fertility. Natural Family Planning does this. There’s many methods available and should you be interested in the information, Megan, I’ll be happy to share it. (And no, it’s not JUST for Catholics. I know a Baptist NFP teaching couple for one thing, for another, all kinds of people from different walks of life have learned and used NFP successfully).
People don’t HAVE to have sex every time they get turned on. Learning to exercise self control isn’t a bad habit to learn and it helps you “stop and think before you leap” (as the saying goes).
Megan
November 16th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
I’ve seen kids demonstrate the sticky tape exercise. Yep, perpetuates the idea that girls who experiment sexually are hoes. Guys get off the hook because it’s more culturally acceptable for men to be more sexually experienced. Does a real lot for the sixteen-year-old female psyche, being told she’s a piece of used-up plastic.
I didn’t say anything about excusing men from their responsibility. It was just one example.
I have said (at least in my chastity talks, if not here) that everyone has a responsibility to exercising self control, but it is no secret that women have a lot riding on sexual intercourse. It’s the way our bodies are designed/created/made/ooperate.
The fact of the matter is, I’ve seen men hurt from pre-marital sex just as I’ve seen women hurt from it.
When I give my chastity talks nobody is freed from responsibility, but as a woman, I tend to know more about how a woman is affected just as men usually know more about how they’re affected since they are men. (Which is one of the reasons I think Jason and Crystalina Evert are such an effective team because they are able to present both points of view. Christopher West is awesome because he can speak directly to men man to man AND when he talks to women it’s with respect and reference. In fact, in a ton of his talks he says something like this: ”Women have been hurt by men using them. If there’s any woman in the room who has been hurt by a man in this way, please accept my apology from the bottom of my heart.” He almost ALWAYS apologizes to women in his talks for when they’re used by men selfishly).
And yes,many conservatives DO want the government in our bedrooms. Like other pro-choicers,I don’t want to see a large number of women going to dangerous back-alley abortionists and risking their lives and health, and to see more and more women die from botched illegal abortions,and to see more and more children left without mothers because of this.
Ah, so when you say “government in our bedrooms” you were referring to… abortion in our bedrooms??? Robert, you really need to try not to hopscotch around when it suits your whim, and try to make an actual point. The government is the one that granted a “right” to abortion in the first place. See, because the problem with you, Robert, is that you can’t seem to make up your mind. Are anti-choicers crazy because we’re against abortion, or against contraception, or because we can’t see the cost-effectiveness of abortion and the HUGE HELP it’s been to abolishing poverty in our country. Oh, wait…
People find a way to rape and murder, too, Robert, but it is against the law and when those people are apprehended, they are dealt with according to the law, on a case-by-case basis. So your argument about not being able to enforce illegal behavior in regards to abortion is not really an argument at all. Unless we are to assume that drug use INCREASES where it is made illegal and where it is discouraged societally, or we are to assume that rape and murder increase in societies where they are made illegal. Making something illegal means the government and society are discouraging such behavior and recognizing it as harmful to society.
Here’s a problem: You want gov’t “out of your bedroom” but you want gov’t to provide for those who reap STDs and abortion from their behavior in those bedrooms. If we could total up how much of a cost to society STD treatment, prevention and education cost… or how much money the gov’t puts toward the abortion industry, not just HERE, but around the world… well, the cost to our society of “bedroom behavior” is, quite frankly, ENORMOUS.
In Africa, the government has decided NOT to stay out of people’s bedrooms in order to try and cope with the epidemic of AIDS in many of those countries. Would you prefer the gov’t stay out of that fight? I’m guessing not. I’m guessing you’re a person who believes everyone needs to send monetary aid to help in combating the spread of this deadly disease in Africa. (By the way, I believe in helping those people, as well.) However, as you can plainly see, the “bedroom behavior” of certain sects in that society have cost an incalculable amount of money and energy and aid from around the world. It’s a perfect example of how sexual behavior isn’t “isolated” at all. Sexual behavior does affect society at large.
Nice that you’re so willing to pay for the public’s contraception, but see, once again, that’d be “the government in the bedroom.”
It’s amazing to think that at one time in America, abortion was illegal, and yet, somehow we as a nation did not go down to our catastrophic doom.
Vita,you and your husband may have been “chaste”, which is good,but the fact remains that just because you and your husband have lived this way ,you still cannot expect every one to do this.
You can’t expect adults who have never been married not to have sex. Not every one has that much self control. People should be careful about their sex lives,yes, but it’s still ttoally unrealistic to expect every one to have sex only within marriage.
This has never been the way of all mankind,and never will.The human sex drive is unstoppable. That’s a fact. A please don’t be so smug about your own life and demand that every one else live like you.
The Roman Catholic church has terrible policies toward human sexuality,marriage and the family. This is not meant to be disrespectful to indvividual Catholics . Old men in robes
who have never been married foolishly demand that only married couples should ever have sex, that they never use contraceptives, that no woman may ever have an abortion for any reason even if a pregnancy would kill her or ruin her health and leave her permanently disabled, and that every married couple should have lots of children even if they are to poor to support them, and all that pathetic garbage.
These old men are terribly messed up in the head and appallingly sexually repressed. Some are guilty of molesting children and some are secretly homosexual.
They have done so much to mess up the world.
These old men are terribly messed up in the head and appallingly sexually repressed. Some are guilty of molesting children and some are secretly homosexual.
They have done so much to mess up the world.
Keep attacking the Catholic Church, Robert, and you’ll be banned pretty quickly for repeated inflammatory comments. I’m not Catholic, but I get really tired of the Catholic-bashing.
Oh, and btw, being against molesting children but promoting their slaughter before birth is pretty messed up.
And another thing – being sexually repressed doesn’t cause things like molestation, but being sexually deviant does.
This has never been the way of all mankind,and never will.The human sex drive is unstoppable. That’s a fact. A please don’t be so smug about your own life and demand that every one else live like you.
Then please don’t be so randy about your own sex life, and expect the rest of us to pay for it.
I wish more married couples would learn about NFP. Learning about how the woman’s cycle works (and guess what, she can only become pregnant a handful of days a month!) would be a great way to bond. Marriage isn’t all about sex, its about a lifetime of love and commitment. And children should be a possible part of that. No one is asking a couple to have 19 children (it takes a unique family for that!) but it is asking to be open to the possibility of life.
NFP is not grandma’s “rhythm method” since there are many different methods (one involves taking temperature). They are side effect free: no blood clots or other side effects that contraceptives can cause.
Sometimes married couples just want to enjoy each other and not worry about kids
Thanks, Mother In Texas! I was about to reply to that comment and you got ahead of me. Just to add – there are great NFP monitors (different from fertility monitors that only work for people trying for a baby), I’ve used one called Persona (http://www.persona.org.uk/uk/what_is.php) right until we decided to have a baby, and no problem – we didn’t get pregnant when we didn’t want to. But I think a few days of abstinence in a month is close to incomprehensible to most of pro-aborts.
And marriage can be profoundly isolating.
You CAN isolate yourself if you want once you get married, but that isn’t generally the case. Maybe you quit living with a bunch of friends at the dormitory, but you can still have a bunch of friends in your life, new married friends joining the company as well, house parties and intensive social life. Marriage doesn’t make people isolated, people MAKE themselves isolated on their own. Also – what does that point (of marriage and isolation) have to do with abortion?
My sister interned at Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas as part of her education to be a doctor.
She was interviewing a paitient and getting a medical history.
She asked the lady if she was using any kind of contraceptive.
The woman replied she had tried the the spermicidal jelly, but had ceased using it.
When my sister asked why, the lady said, ”It don’t taste good.”
True story.
[I would have suggested adding toasted bread and peanut butter.]
More proof that humans are stupid and the condition is not peculiar to any particlar age, race or gender.
Given that human beings have sexual desire, drive, attraction and ability beyond merely the times of optimal fertalization, it is obvious that sex is not just for procreation. This is supported by the fact that some of you practice roman roulette. You want sex even when you know full well you will not get pregnant.
So when it comes to having sex beyond intended pregnancy it’s purely a case of personal choice, opinion and belief. This is evidenced by Mother In Texas’s words.
Vita, a baby is not a ‘punishment’ unless it is forced upon you. Since humans have sought to control their fertility since the dawn of time, the fact that we have contraception and abortion demonstrates that we have achieved a certain level of choosing when to have a baby.
Having consensual sex for love, friendship or pleasure is not ‘using’ someone in the sense that you attribute to it Jacqueline. That is simply your personal viewpoint.
“Sex is not recreation, but procreation!” – that is just so wrong. Vita, you have explained that you have sex with no intention to procreate. Sure you will accept the outcome if you do fall pregnant, but it is not your intent when you have sex.
“Due to the dismal failure of the 1960s contraceptive mentality social experiment, part of the cost of this “preventive” care will have to be employing workers to physically dispense the Pill every day in little cups woman to woman or stand by for condom placement.”
Or the new millenium feministas could volunteer to stand in as surrogate sexual objects.
Some times if you want something done right, you just have to do it yourself.
This has never been the way of all mankind,and never will.The human sex drive is unstoppable. That’s a fact.
I must disagree. For centuries the only acceptable sexual relationship was between a husband and a wife. Many cultures even had rituals to make sure if a young bride is virgin (now I don’t say I agree with those rituals, but it proves the point – majority of women were entering marriage before any sexual contact). That’s not to say that all men were entering the marriage chaste or that there weren’t any sad stories about girls pretty much abandoned because they had sex or child outside marriage, but that is another topic. And are you saying that pre-marital and extra-marital sex is all good and dandy? What GOOD does it actually bring to society or a person, apart from temporary physical pleasure? The STI’s haven’t ever been as widespread as now, single parent families (however I adore parents who choose to raise a child without a partner), which isn’t ideal environment for children, divorce, abortion, AIDS, the list could go on.
You can’t expect adults who have never been married not to have sex. Not every one has that much self control.
If a man with no self-control was stranded on a deserted island for 10 years with only his mother for company, are you saying he’d assault her? I bet no – however limited his self-control was. Which means, EVERYONE (maybe excluding people with mental disability) is capable of having appropriate amount of self-control, but not everyone is willing to use it.
The Roman Catholic church has terrible policies toward human sexuality,marriage and the family.
Spoken by someone who has no in-depth un-biased knowledge of Catholic Faith.
cranium
“Sex is not recreation, but procreation!” – that is just so wrong. Vita, you have explained that you have sex with no intention to procreate. Sure you will accept the outcome if you do fall pregnant, but it is not your intent when you have sex.
Good point, cranium, well noticed. However, this was a response to someone claiming that sex is merely a recreational activity, which I totally disagree with and just liked how both words rhymed. I should have said something like “Sex is not only recreation, but also procreation”, which would reflect my views better. As there is no separation between two, sex was always and will always be procreation (there is no 100% human control over that) as well as recreation (in a sense of providing a bonding between a husband and wife, intimacy and pleasure). And if you’re about to claim that I remove procreational part of the sex if I have sex only on infertile days, that’s not exactly true because I’m still open for procreation (don’t use any contraception) in case IF by some mistake it was a fertile day after all.
The Roman Catholic church has terrible policies toward human sexuality,marriage and the family. This is not meant to be disrespectful to indvividual Catholics . Old men in robes
who have never been married foolishly demand that only married couples should ever have sex, that they never use contraceptives, that no woman may ever have an abortion for any reason even if a pregnancy would kill her or ruin her health and leave her permanently disabled, and that every married couple should have lots of children even if they are to poor to support them, and all that pathetic garbage.
Robert,
You know what, you are being inflammatory. You say “No disrespect to individual Catholics” yet, in your post you proceed to attack the Catholic Church, clergy, beliefs and whatever else you deem a target.
How else am I supposed to take your words other than a disrespect to me (since I AM a practicing and devout Catholic) other than disrespect when you slam my faith and Church up one side and down the other? How else SHOULD a person take that, Robert? (And I’m NOT the only Catholic on here, either).
Sure that’s your opinion, yet, you said “no disrespect” but disrespecting is EXACTLY what you did.
As for “old men in robes” you’d be amazed to know there are YOUNG priests out there preaching abstainance before marriage and chastity within marriage. Priests as young as in their 30’s. That’s hardly “old men”.
Another thing is, the Catholic Church is going by what Jesus taught.
The Catholic Church ALSO doesn’t say sex is only for procreation, it says that there’s two MAIN purposes of sexual intercourse:
Unitative and procrative.
Unitative meaning reaffirming the marriage vows. Unmarried couples do not have any marriage vows to reaffirm so what is their sexual intercourse encounter reaffirming?
Procreative, which is being open to the possibility of children. The Church recognizes that not every couple can have children and recognizes that not every time a husband and wife have sexual intercourse will a child happen, they ask that the couple be open to the POSSBILITY of that happening…that is, everytime they have sexual intercourse not using anything specifically designed to prevent pregnancy.
NFP is the only method that works WITH a woman’s fertility to help the couple determine when she is most and least fertile.
A couple that has carefully thought out whether or not they could provide for a child (a responsibility all couples have regarding sexual intercourse) then they proceed accordingly. However, should a “suprise pregnancy” happen this means the couple will work within God’s plan for marriage to provide for that child, which does not include aborting said child.
THAT is what the Catholic Church teaches in a nutshell.
Next time, look up “The Catechism Of The Catholic Church” before posting what you THINK the Catholic Church teaches in order to provide a INFORMED post rather than your own image of the Catholic Church and its teachings.
cranium
November 16th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Vita, a baby is not a ‘punishment’ unless it is forced upon you. Since humans have sought to control their fertility since the dawn of time, the fact that we have contraception and abortion demonstrates that we have achieved a certain level of choosing when to have a baby.
No, a baby is not punishment, regardless. They are a person. If someone is being punished, they are made to sit in a corner, not handed a child. People are not punishments.
And the fact that we have contraception and abortion demonstrates that people are aware that sex leads to children. The very fact that someone is using birth control when having sex demonstrates that they understand what sex does. You do not take steps to prevent something when you consider it to be unrelated to the activity in which you are participating. That, of itself, means that if someone does get pregnant, even if they were using birth control at the time, they were aware of that possibility before they had sex. They must have been or else they wouldn’t have taken steps to avoid it.
To argue that someone who voluntarily undertakes an activity, with the foreknowledge of a potential consequence, is allowed to kill a third party who is present as a result of their voluntary activity, is stupid even when that person didn’t take steps to avoid that consequence, but even more so when they did. They knew this consequence was possible and chose to act as they did anyway. This is true regardless of whether the initial action was right or wrong (a subject into which I will not get).
Mother In Texas
November 16th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I loved it! Thank you for standing up for our Faith!!!
Priests as young as in their 30?s. That’s hardly “old men”.
Like a balm to my heart, you just reminded me of my brother who is in his 2nd year of training for priesthood in seminary, bless him :) As I’ve always said – he’s 6 years younger and 6 years wiser than me, Holy Spirit and Love just radiates from him! And (fingers crossed) he’ll be a priest before he’s even 30. Yeeeeyyyy!!!
Given that human beings have sexual desire, drive, attraction and ability beyond merely the times of optimal fertalization, it is obvious that sex is not just for procreation. This is supported by the fact that some of you practice roman roulette. You want sex even when you know full well you will not get pregnant.
So when it comes to having sex beyond intended pregnancy it’s purely a case of personal choice, opinion and belief. This is evidenced by Mother In Texas’s words.
I never said that sex was just for procreation and I never said it should be treated as some sort of recreational activity to engage in on a whim.
One of the MAIN purposes of sexual intercourse is procreation. The other is unititive (reaffirmation of the marriage vows).
The fact that the husband and wife are capable (and often do) enjoy sex is a gift from God not to be used irresponsbily and not to engage in selflishly, since sexual intercourse is an expression of giving oneself to another–which is supposed to be an unselfish act.
I also never said people should go around having sexual intercouse willy-nilly without considering the fact that pregnancy is a possiblity. And I don’t mean that means artificial contraception is acceptable, I mean that when one is having sexual intercourse, being willing to accept the fact that the woman could become pregnant and recognizing the couple will have to be responsbile for the child that’s conceived from the moment of his/her conception.
This means when a woman is pregnant, she goes through the pregnancy and either A. takes care of said child or B. places child for adoption.
Being that abortion is wrong, that’s not an option, so I didn’t put it as one.
Vita said: I loved it! Thank you for standing up for our Faith!!!
No problem, Vita. I love our faith. Not everyone agrees the Catholic Church is a beautiful faith, but I definitely think so.
VITA SAID: Like a balm to my heart, you just reminded me of my brother who is in his 2nd year of training for priesthood in seminary, bless him As I’ve always said – he’s 6 years younger and 6 years wiser than me, Holy Spirit and Love just radiates from him! And (fingers crossed) he’ll be a priest before he’s even 30. Yeeeeyyyy!!!
Hurray for your brother! God bless and best wishes to him!
(And no, it’s not JUST for Catholics. I know a Baptist NFP teaching couple for one thing, for another, all kinds of people from different walks of life have learned and used NFP successfully).
True story! At the risk of sharing too much information, I’m agnostic and have used NFP for quite some time now. Not being Catholic, I don’t see any need to abstain when there’s a chance I could get pregnant – there are a variety of ways to enjoy time with the person I love, whether sexually or not. So there is really not much difference in my sex life at all.
I have never used the pill and never will. I don’t think it should be illegal but I do wish more women examined what they are doing and why. I run in pretty hippie-dippie circles, and most of the women I’m friends with get enraged at the slightest hint of sexism in advertising or cultural attitude, and won’t microwave plastic or use vinyl shower curtains or paint with environmentally unfriendly paint lest it damage their health – but they are almost universally shocked to find that I’m NOT on the pill. I often find myself wondering at the blind spot. I certainly believe that everyone should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies for whatever reason, but I do find it odd that birth control gets such a pass. Few products are similarly absolved of scrutiny.
On a practical note, how do y’all manage to counsel unmarried pregnant women while disguising these obvious feelings of self-righteousness and disdain for non-normative, non-marital sex?
“I certainly believe that everyone should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies for whatever reason”
so you wouldn’t mind if it’s legal for a 10 yr old to smoke crack or shoot heroin? or a 37 week pregnant women drank a bottle of vodka?
We love them and help them. We love them where they are at. We can not change their lifestyle or choices – but I’ve seen it happen – that young women want to change and get into good relationships.
No self-righteousness here – just genuine concern and love. we want the best for them – and some of the things we tell them they have never heard before. PP doesn’t take the time. Doctors don’t take the time. But we have time for them because we make time for them and their families.
look up secondary virginity. Women deserve better – and they do better when they decide to love themselves enough to wait for the right circumstances.
On a practical note, how do y’all manage to counsel unmarried pregnant women
Uh, some of us were unmarried pregnant women.
Honestly, I can’t understand why we as a society have such an aversion to learning anything. It is my opinion that we should be teaching the concepts behind NFP to young women as a whole. Every time I have mentioned that I practice NFP, I’ve had to contend with the reaction that I’m somehow being foolish by not blindly trusting a condom or the pill to improve intimacy and prevent pregnancy in my relationship. Quite frankly, the numbers game is very much in support of sympto-thermal NFP.
I get so incensed by the way that we trap ourselves by SEX. Since WHEN exactly does one have to be sexually promiscuous to experience freedom of one’s spirit? Since when are men so completely base and so completely controlled by their bodies that they cannot survive without daily “release”? Since when are we so base and so primal that our libidos dictate our freedoms?
What a culture we have become! We bow to the so-called god of immediate gratification. We fail to see the value in anything that we cannot get easily, here, and now! We quantify everything and everyone in our lives by how useful it is in satisfying our urges. And when anyone dares call the lie for what it is, we antagonize them. We call them outdated or bigoted or restrictive. We employ whatever measures we must to detract from the Truth they reveal.
How maddening!
Mods, Bobby in particular-
I have two minds on Berger’s consistent Catholic attacks. Why is his clearly inflammatory language allowed towards Catholics? Because he uses the lame ‘no offense to you personally’ canard? No offense to us, guess us Catholics are all just idiots for choosing Catholicism. Whatever.
On the other hand, he weakens the pro-choice-for-death position considerably by speaking in such a hostile and biased way that taints any arguments he might otherwise be able to make.
If that’s why you allow such attacks on Catholics, I guess I can live with it. Please advise on how to take such insults when they’re supposedly not allowed. I love this blog, and I’m sincerely curious.
What a culture we have become! We bow to the so-called god of immediate gratification. We fail to see the value in anything that we cannot get easily, here, and now! We quantify everything and everyone in our lives by how useful it is in satisfying our urges. And when anyone dares call the lie for what it is, we antagonize them. We call them outdated or bigoted or restrictive. We employ whatever measures we must to detract from the Truth they reveal.
How maddening!
Mary Rose,
We’re all fallen human beings whether we fall into the trap of sexual sin or another trap. As a Christian, you recognize our Jewish roots and know the story of Adam and Eve. Sin entered the world, but God is merciful.
It is maddening to be a fallen creature, but God is order and strength and grace. This is one of the reasons I cling to my faith because without it I (I don’t know about anyone else) would feel lost.
If I offended any one with my comments here,I apologize. Perhaps my comments were
over the top.But I don’t hate individual Catholics at all.I know many myself and they are fine people. I don’t condemn any one merely for being Catholic or any other Christian denomination.
I was merely using harsh criticism of the Pope and the Cardinals in the Vatican,who for the most part ARE older men. Yes,I know there are plenty of younger priests who follow Vatican policy. But I simply disapprove very strongly of those policies. These policies don’t “protect life”.
They don’t stop abortion in any way and never will because they can’t.
I wasn’t condoning promiscuity or reckless,self-indulgent,sexually careless lifestyle.
I was merely using harsh language to point out how terribly misguided,unrealistic and counterproductive Catholic policies on marriage,the family and human sexuality are.
I promise to be more restarined in my comments. I don’t hate you folks here at jillstanek.com. I’m just appalled at what you advocate for society.
Robert,
I appreciate the apology. In the future I will try my best to delete ALL Catholic pedophile/priest bashing comments. So don’t go there.
I’m just appalled at what you advocate for society.
Right back atcha, Robert. After all of your years here, seeing what abortion does to unborn children and how it hurts women and men, I am appalled that you continue to advocate and promote abortion.
Robert,
I didn’t copy the comments I’m responding to because my computer is being tempramental.
I appreciate your apology. And the Catholic Church is well aware there are people who won’t follow their policies because of Free Will.
There are going to be people who say “to heck with what the Church teaches, I’m going to do what I want” but those rules/doctorine/dogmas are there to guide us in forming our consciences to know what’s right and what’s wrong. We may, as beings who have Free Will and the ability to discern matters, choose to go contrary to God’s laws passed down through tradition and teaching in the Catholic Church and the Bible, but we are responsible for whatever consequences our choices render. Serious sins have serious consequences and the Church simply cannot ignore those things.
As to your other comment, I agree with Carla. You may be “appalled” (as you said) at what Catholics and pro-lifers “advocate for society” but we’re appalled that you’re just fine with the murdering of thousands of pre-born human beings who’s only so-called “crime” is being conceived when the mother (and/or father or other relatives) don’t want him or her to exist.
so you wouldn’t mind if it’s legal for a 10 yr old to smoke crack or shoot heroin? or a 37 week pregnant women drank a bottle of vodka?
Jasper, don’t be dense and don’t change the subject. Obviously there is a difference between a 10-year old smoking crack, a pregnant woman drinking massive quantities of vodka, and a non-pregnant adult woman ingesting a synthetic hormone. Adults take medication every single day, and lots of the time I am uncomfortable with some of those medications or circumstances, but I don’t try to criminalize them simply for that reason. If you really want to have this conversation, the one where we talk about age of majority and ability to consent and obligation to another person versus personal liberty, then fine, we’ll have it, but I’m pretty sure you know exactly what I mean, as you so often do when you randomly jump all over me for a single sentence.
Robert – apology accepted – and I would add that most people don’t understand the teaching and think it’s absurd – but I thought that way too until my eyes were opened to the beauty and the power of the teaching now.
We are trying to have people lead less sinful lives – a life of service to others, a life of service from one spouse to another. When my husband announced that he could not contracept anymore, I knew that something was wrong but could not imaging that that was it.
In our learning NFP, we expanded our love for one another. we do not use each other for sexual gain or power. We have the marital embrace with pure intention and love… nothing withheld, including our fertility.
We have been practicing NFP for 18 years now – were able to space our children, grow in love for each other and even purposely used the method to conceive our second daughter (yes- it’s that accurate).
The Church’s teaching on human sexuality and family is beautiful. But one has to be open to it’s beauty and want to find out more. It is right-living, for sure and helps people to carve out an authentically Catholic Christian life – good for everything.
I was wrong when I was younger – strong willed and living a sin-filled life. Now I don’t even recognize myself from that past stage – and it has made my love for God and others even stronger.
What I did not understand, I could not use. what I did for myself was selfish, self-centered and sinful. By the grace of God – that was a prior life.
The Catholic view of the human is that humankind is strong, capable and loving. That we have the capacity to do good for others, and to act uprightly. And with self-mastery, everyone can leave the me,me,me way to look at life, and to live it in service for you, you, you. That is the essence of the teaching. Beautiful.
Alexandra, you said: “I certainly believe that everyone should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies for whatever reason”
What’s the problem? There are conditions? There should be limitations? Pfft.
Is this a good time to plug The Theology of the Body? It’s a great thing. You can find it in book form, as a workshop on CD and in other forms. Non-catholics and Catholics alike can learn a lot from it.
You know what’s nice about older people? Wisdom and life experience. I don’t mind a bunch of older bishops and priests. It would be age-ist and sex-ist of me to dislike them based on their advanced age and male gender. Catholic bashers sometimes exhibit a funny blindness: we worship Mary, they think, but we hate women, they think. Influential leaders, generals, emperors, and the like all tried to kill the Church when it was starting out. Two thousand years later the Church is still here, still spans the globe, and every year welcomes new converts. We’re not too worried about attacks from without. It’s the attacks from within that concern us more.
I agree that it’s a good idea for women to understand how their bodies work. But NFP seems to require a patient spouse, a solid marriage and relatively good health on the part of the woman. What to do when those conditions can’t be met?
I don’t like the moral hierarchy you create. In touting NFP as the only family planning method aligned with Truth, you’re making more of a comment on the state of a couple’s marriage than anything else. Yes, NFP might have worked for you, but in other instances couples can use it as a “tool for sexual game or power.” Is NFP the “right” method to use for a couple in which a husband desperately wants to conceive a girl after having two boys, and the wife has had it with being pregnant? Or in a marriage where a wife feels she can devote the love and attention necessary for having a baby, but the husband does not?
@Megan: It would make a lot more sense if women were angry that they’re allowing, even encouraging, themselves to be used as objects for sexual gratification, rather than being angry because they’re pregnant, wouldn’t it? Then we’d be dealing with the PROBLEM (women having sex while foolishly, childishly pretending that conception is not one of sex’s functions), instead of the SYMPTOM (unintended pregnancies). Women fail to recognize that their lack of self-esteem and self-concept is what drives them to have sex when they aren’t prepared for the potential consequences. Until women correct the problem, having abortions is rubbing salt in the wound. (And yes, I’m a woman.)
DA,
Awesome comment!!! Totally agree!!
Megan,
It is a good idea to work out all of the expectations of children before marrying. I always wanted four and my husband agreed. We didn’t plan on two miscarriages and didn’t know if we COULD have four. Just like some friends of mine didn’t plan on infertility but have since adopted.
I had a friend who married and they both wanted quite a few children. After she was pregnant once she said she would NEVER do that again. She didn’t. They divorced.
There are no guarantees that we will have the number of children we want, when we want them.
MaryLee, taken in context I was saying that I think that my friends should be able to take medication even if I disagree with their decision to do so, lest Megan immediately accuse me of wanting to ban birth control simply because I use NFP. There are always conditions, to everything we do and say and ingest and everything else. The point is that I wish my friends would more closely examine their decisions but will not prevent them from making those decision JUST BECAUSE they are not examining them more closely.
“But NFP seems to require a patient spouse, a solid marriage and relatively good health on the part of the woman. What to do when those conditions can’t be met?”
While this is certainly true, I think there may be some reverse correlation as well- in other words, I think that using NFP promotes patient spouses and a solid marriage to some extent. I don’t do stats, so I have no numbers to back this up, but this is my intuition based on my experiences with others.
Megan
November 17th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
I agree that it’s a good idea for women to understand how their bodies work. But NFP seems to require a patient spouse, a solid marriage and relatively good health on the part of the woman. What to do when those conditions can’t be met?
Yes, in some cases, it does require patience–but that really depends on the couple involved. For some, they don’t mind how many children they have –they want a big family, so conceiving isn’t a worry/concern for them. Others, like myself, might have health concerns, which is why my husband and I exercise extreme caution when it comes to sexual intercourse. It doesn’t mean we can’t HAVE sexual intercourse, it means we have to watch my body’s signals and charts to prayerfully make the best decisions for us and our marriage and family.
However, even people like myself and others who might have worse health problems, you can still practice NFP. It might be a little more difficult, but it’s rarely impossible.
(Speaking of one of the benefits, one of my sisters discovered the early stages of breast cancer from an analmoly on her NFP charts. The doc was shocked because normally women don’t notice a problem as early as she did. She’s been in remission for a number of years and part of it was that they caught it so early).
I don’t like the moral hierarchy you create. In touting NFP as the only family planning method aligned with Truth, you’re making more of a comment on the state of a couple’s marriage than anything else. Yes, NFP might have worked for you, but in other instances couples can use it as a “tool for sexual game or power.” Is NFP the “right” method to use for a couple in which a husband desperately wants to conceive a girl after having two boys, and the wife has had it with being pregnant? Or in a marriage where a wife feels she can devote the love and attention necessary for having a baby, but the husband does not?
You can use NFP to conceive or avoid pregnancy. My husband and I have used it both ways. Other couples have, too.
As for conceiving two boys and two girls or whatever gender preference in children a person wants, nobody has control over the gender of their child. It’s silly for anyone, regardless of the method of family planning they use to have such expectations.
(I have heard somewhere that sperm that could conceive a boy moves slowly than that sperm that could conceive a girl so in some cases it’s possible a couple could have sexual intercourse at a point in the woman’s fertile period that would raise the chances of having a girl rather than a boy, but even then, there’s NO guarentees. A couple could’ve had sexual intercourse thinking it’s the time of the fertile period they could conceive a girl and STILL end up having a boy).
Before marriage, it’s very important a couple communicates their thoughts, fears, hopes and dreams regarding their marriage, and potential children. They must work TOGETHER (and for those who have religious background–prayerfully consider) what would work for them.
NFP isn’t a method to conceive one gender over another…it’s a method of family planning.
I don’t know of anything (except gender selection with perhaps IVF) that could “guarentee” 2 boys and a girl or two girls and a boy or whatever gender for a couple’s child(ren).
I know several teaching couples and an NFP consultant who’s contact information I have, so, should you want more information, I can contact somebody and ask whatever questions you have about Natural Family Planning.
Robert,
I would highly recommend that, if you truly do want to know more about the Catholic teachings on things, that you read Love and Responsibility by Pope John Paul iI. you would be quite shocked at what some of those old men in robes really **do** know about the human condition, love, and the particular way sexual relationships can effect women.
i would also like to point out that some of these comments about NFP sort of paint the picture that, from the Catholic perspective, it’s a-ok to use NFP to routinely delay having children by simply abstaining on fertile days for months, years on end without batting an eye. i’m not saying this is what the posters intended i’m simply saying that that’s how it could be interpreted by an unknowing person. this is not the case, and Catholics who misuse NFP are also in the wrong.
megan:
i’m a bit confused.
you say
” Is NFP the “right” method to use for a couple in which a husband desperately wants to conceive a girl after having two boys, and the wife has had it with being pregnant? Or in a marriage where a wife feels she can devote the love and attention necessary for having a baby, but the husband does not?”
what, in your opinion, would be the correct method in these situations? does popping a pill solve the problem? will the pill help to reconcile the marrital differences you elude to about a husband wanting a girl but the wife not wanting to be pregnant or a woman who wants a child but a man who does not? of course it won’t. it will instead leave the problem unresolved. the sex might continue, but so will the conflict. so i’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make here.
“I would highly recommend that, if you truly do want to know more about the Catholic teachings on things, that you read Love and Responsibility by Pope John Paul iI. you would be quite shocked at what some of those old men in robes really **do** know about the human condition, love, and the particular way sexual relationships can effect women.”
Isn’t that the book where the future Pope talks about the beauty of a mutual orgasm in, I believe, chapter 4? Shocking!
Mother in Texas,
Of course, you’re right, and thanks be to God that you are! It’s just so difficult to be good when you’re surrounded by such a dangerous set of rules. I get impassioned at times, I will admit.
Bobby,
When couples start using NFP, their divorce rates plummet. Of course, I have yet to find a site that HBC advocates won’t respond to with, “Bias!” but that is because who but biased individuals is going to study divorce rates for NFP practicing couples? But here are the references I have. The numbers suggest a range from 0.2% to 3% divorce rates in couples practicing NFP. I’d say that is certainly a case to suggest that yes, NFP promotes a solid marriage. http://www.physiciansforlife.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=193 http://hliamerica.org/news-commentary/divorce-rate-comparisons-between-couples-using-natural-family-planning-artificial-birth-control/ http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062704.html http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/wils/wils_01naturalfamilyplanning2.html
Speaking from personal experience, also, I am married to a man who, although he supports my stance, has no particular feelings one way or the other about most non-abortifacient preventative measures (barriers, spermicide, vasectomies, etc). Since we have begun practicing NFP, we have seen an increase in positive communication, a better bedroom life, and we have found ourselves more understanding of one another’s position. I don’t know how much of it is to do with NFP, but I can tell you that he has mentioned to me on numerous occasions how glad he is that he let me talk him into NFP.
I am so impressed with the eloquence and caliber of the people on this blog! I just had to repost a few of my favorites:
Carla: I did want to comment that after I was that piece of duct tape that was stuck with bits and pieces, Jesus still wanted me. A lost and lonely and used up, promiscuous girl was wanted and loved by Him. That is the heart of the gospel.
Ninek: Don’t want to raise a child, then don’t. But don’t kill a child who is alive and has every right to his birthday.
Vita: Well, sorry guys, but sex HAS consequences – either emotional/psychological, either pregnancy, either STD/STI, just to name a few. Just like contraception does. And to claim that it’s all SOO very consequence free is foolish and misguided. Wishful thinking and nothing more.
Mother in Texas: I think what we need to do is go back to finding the dignity in human life and respecting one another. The lack of respect for one’s self and another is rampant in society.
The moment we give consent to treat each other as casual commodities of our own pleasure is the moment we give up some of the most precious thing about ourselves and others: the dignity of life. (Abortion treats pregnancy and the pre-born baby like a tumor rather than a human being).
Alexandra: I have never used the pill and never will. I don’t think it should be illegal but I do wish more women examined what they are doing and why. I run in pretty hippie-dippie circles, and most of the women I’m friends with get enraged at the slightest hint of sexism in advertising or cultural attitude, and won’t microwave plastic or use vinyl shower curtains or paint with environmentally unfriendly paint lest it damage their health – but they are almost universally shocked to find that I’m NOT on the pill.
Mary Rose: What a culture we have become! We bow to the so-called god of immediate gratification. We fail to see the value in anything that we cannot get easily, here, and now! We quantify everything and everyone in our lives by how useful it is in satisfying our urges. And when anyone dares call the lie for what it is, we antagonize them. We call them outdated or bigoted or restrictive. We employ whatever measures we must to detract from the Truth they reveal.
How maddening!
Joy from Illinois: The Catholic view of the human is that humankind is strong, capable and loving. That we have the capacity to do good for others, and to act uprightly. And with self-mastery, everyone can leave the me,me,me way to look at life, and to live it in service for you, you, you. That is the essence of the teaching. Beautiful.
i would also like to point out that some of these comments about NFP sort of paint the picture that, from the Catholic perspective, it’s a-ok to use NFP to routinely delay having children by simply abstaining on fertile days for months, years on end without batting an eye. i’m not saying this is what the posters intended i’m simply saying that that’s how it could be interpreted by an unknowing person. this is not the case, and Catholics who misuse NFP are also in the wrong.
I definitely agree, lux! Usually that conversation comes up here eventually – ycw and Jacqueline are always quite articulate on it, I recall – but I would not want to muddy the issue, which is why I usually try to note that I, at least, am not Catholic.
Bobby wrote:
I don’t do stats…
I knew there was a reason why I liked you… ;) Aside from the standard Mark Twain quote, I liked the college professor quote about statistics being (paraphrase) “the contamination of pristine math with the filth of human chaos”…
i would also like to point out that some of these comments about NFP sort of paint the picture that, from the Catholic perspective, it’s a-ok to use NFP to routinely delay having children by simply abstaining on fertile days for months, years on end without batting an eye. i’m not saying this is what the posters intended i’m simply saying that that’s how it could be interpreted by an unknowing person. this is not the case, and Catholics who misuse NFP are also in the wrong.
Lux,
In the Catholic Church, the way NFP is taught (at least the method I learned) is that the couple must PRAYERFULLY consider whether or not they can/should conceive a child. This means that we involve God in the decision making.
NFP is not designed to be used as an excuse for couples not to consider God’s plan for the marriage, it’s meant to be a tool to help with the marriage, family planning and having a family.
Each fertile and non-fertile time (this means each charting period) the couple must think hard on why they either want/don’t want to conceive and involve God in the process of making that decision through prayer and discernment.
Cat,
Thank you. Sweet of you to say that. :-)
Thanks Cat also. ;)
Hi Cat!!
Thanks. :)
There are some amazing prolifers here!!
Hey all – I just wanted to relay some news from here.
During a one-day symposium for high school parents – we heard directly from those young students on what they are doing in their families now, and how they ended up being parents so young.
Every one of the couples said they knew how to use contraception, had access to it, and even had it – but they decided not to use it …
I thought that was very interesting. So despite the ‘knowledge’ they decided not to use what was available.
And the essence is that people know deep down that using a condom, and any other contraception, does change things in intimacy. It’s not only a physical thing – but it’s more than that. I truly think that these couples knew instinctively that using contraception produces a barrier of sorts (physically, emotionally and spiritually) and they wanted to be totally together with no barriers.
I appreciated their candor and their willingness to share what was happening to them.
I thought that was very interesting. So despite the ‘knowledge’ they decided not to use what was available.
Joy,
I agree, that is interesting. Many people in favor of artificial contraception seem to think that’s what’s going to solve all our sexual/abortion problems, when in fact some people view it as more problematic.
I’m not saying there’s a perfect solution, however, some are healthier and safer (like abstainance with chastity and chastity within marriage) than other methods (like the birth control pill).
But people still have Free Will. Forcing someone on artificial contraception isn’t gonna work any better than trying to force someone to abstain from sex.
We have to educate and encourage the healthy methods. But in the end, we can’t control what people will decide to do, we can only advocate teaching methods, laws, and protocols that encourage safer/healthier choices.
And we can keep defending those healthier methods/choices.