Jivin J’s Life Links 11-5-10
by JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat
- Two MIT students have written one of the most absurd sentences I’ve ever seen:A government’s failure to provide abortions constitutes depraved indifference to human life.
They also have a very low view of women:
Equality of the sexes is impossible without free access to abortions.
They never once attempt to make any argument about the what the unborn are and why it should be legal to kill them and conclude with this:
- We look forward to a world in which every woman is guaranteed her right to an abortion whenever she wants, for any reason.
- What kind of physicians would work for a man who has lost his medical license in numerous states and has a long history of skirting the law and botching abortions? As Operation Rescue shows, criminals and physicians who likely can’t find work anywhere else.
- Thabiti Anyabwhile (a pro-life pastor in the Cayman Islands) argues that pro-lifers should avoid comparing abortion to slavery, without at least spending a good amount of time showing your empathy towards how slaves suffered:A suggestion: If you have an African American audience with whom you’re using this analogy and you have 30 minutes to win their support, spend the first 20 minutes showing your familiarity with the brutality of suffering and affirming the humanity of the sufferer before you employ the suffering and the sufferer in your cause. Otherwise, I’m guessing most of your audience is saying, “How dare you?!” …
But having said that, the person who wants to compare abortion to slavery – especially the politically and theologically conservative white person – needs to be ready to hear a lot of people question them personally for doing so. Here’s why. You fit a type in the African American mind. You look, think, speak, and act a lot like the very folks who held slaves. Your views on some things are hauntingly and terrifyingly similar. We sometimes hear you making political arguments about other issues (take states’ rights, for example) and we think, This dude is a Dixiecrat. Now you show up and you talk about the suffering of African Americans in a way that doesn’t deeply explore that suffering or memorialize that humanity and you become very suspect.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Wow! What’s next? Is some rabbi going to have the audacity to suggest that comparing abortion to the Holocaust might be slightly offensive to Jews? The mighty pro-life warriors here, who are experts at making friends and influencing people, know better.
“Equality of the sexes is impossible without free access to abortions.”
Amazing. According to their worldview, women are naturally inferior to men. The way that women are, when their body functions properly and they can’t kill their unborn, they are naturally inferior to men. They need to be able to have abortions in order to be equal. It takes the intercession of human beings to raise teh woman up to being equal to man because on their own without this interference, women are naturally inferior to men. Only with abortion do women have the same dignity as men. If there is no abortion, women are not the equal of men, but inferior by means of what they are intrinsically.
These statements are absolutely right. Making abortion illegal threatens the lives of women everywhere,as well as depriving so many children of their mothers when they die of botched illegal abortions.
Yes,women cannot be equal if they are denied the right to choose an abortion. This reduces them the the status of baby-making machines, which is profoundly immoral.
The anti-choice3 movement is anti-women,anti-children,and anti-life.It is the REAL culture of death. Ditto the Catholic church. No disrespect meant to individual Catholics,most of whom are good people. But the appallingly counterproductive policies of the Vatican regarding marriage,the family, contraception,abortion and human sexuality in general are deadly and catastrophic and must be stopped at all costs.
Robert Berger
November 5th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Yes,women cannot be equal if they are denied the right to choose an abortion. This reduces them the the status of baby-making machines, which is profoundly immoral.
No. You view pregnant women as baby-making machines. That is the only reason you could possibly make that statement. Pregnancy is natural, normal, and perfectly ordinary. There’s nothing wrong with it. The fact that you think there is something wrong with it is very revealing. Your view of pregnancy as a mechanical process that holds women back or keeps women down is profoundly anti-feminist and is, quite honestly, deeply offensive.
As is that entire article, from start to finish. To go through and point out all the sexism in it would take all day, but that sentence is the worst. The fact that you agree with it, Robert, is bad enough, but the fact that you are a man agreeing with it kind of makes it worse.
“Yes,women cannot be equal if they are denied the right to choose an abortion. This reduces them the the status of baby-making machines, which is profoundly immoral.”
I find this offensive, Robert. Women are baby-making human beings, not baby-making machines. I do not need the so-called right to kill my own fetus to be equal to you or any man. Do not tell me I need the option to murder my young.
I agree with Bobby Bambino and his post above, did you read it? The quote “If there is no abortion, women are not the equal of men, but inferior by means of what they are intrinsically” is exactly right.
To bring the absurdity of the idea that women are not equal to men without abortion home further, let us consider a thought experiment. Suppose there is a world catastrophe (like maybe on, I dunno, Dec 21 2012) which wipes out all of mankind except one woman and one man who are both ignorant of biology and the human reproductive system. Now neither of them knows how to perform an abortion or has any clue where one would begin. In other words, this woman, through an act of nature, has no access to a safe abortion. According to the above statement, this woman is inferior to the man by virtue of what she is intrinsically. The service of abortion, which she NEEDED to ELEVATE her natural status of being inferior to a man, and thus in her natural state of being, given the circumstances of the world, she is inferior to this man.
Of course, the pro-life view views women and men as equal under any and all circumstances, regardless of age, size, location, level of development, or state of affairs of the world. There is no possible state of humanity which would naturally constitute that a man or woman was inferior to a woman or man, respectability. The level of dignity and moral worth of both teh man and the women is equal, and independent of these extenuating circumstances.
You’ve completely misunderstood me. I and other pro-choicers are not opposed to
women having children.We’re just opposed to FORCING them to in circumstances which
would be disasdtrous to them and their children. And yes, government-ordered mandatory
child-bearing is extremely demeaning to women and disastrous for society.
It’s blocking a womans right to choose, preventing her from controlling her own body, which makes her a machine. Giving her choice and control is what makes her human.
Bobby, things might drift along quite nicely for a while, with the woman being the true equal of the man in your little scenario. But then eventually someone will come along and claim that there is some reason or some grounds on which they are entitled to dictate how the man and woman live and behave. They’d probably claim to be the messenger of some god. It is this person who would reduce the rights of the woman and make her less equal. Because once the man and woman learned how they reproduced, they would seek to have the ability to control their lives. ‘Gods messenger’ would rail against this.
You’ve completely misunderstood me. I and other pro-choicers are not opposed to women having children.
I understood you just fine. You view pregnancy as something that makes women weak and less-than. If you did not, you would not claim abortion is necessary to make them equal, because if they were equal intrinsically, nothing would be necessary to make them that way.
What other pro-choicers think I will leave to them to say.
Keli Hu, when will some of you people stop misrepresenting the situation and twisting what is said. Are you that desperately short of facts with which to press your case?
Pro-choicers do NOT view pregnancy as something that makes women weak and less-than.
It is the attempts at controlling and limiting women by not allowing them control of their own bodies and having choices as to what they do which makes women less-than.
Women are more than equal. It’s equal RIGHTS and equal OPPORTUNITIES which need to be protected from mysoginistic, patriarchal thinking and behavior.
“We’re just opposed to FORCING them to in circumstances which would be disasdtrous to them and their children. And yes, government-ordered mandatory child-bearing is extremely demeaning to women and disastrous for society.”
I agree 100%. I do not know any pro-lifers who believe in forcing women to have children. Honestly, I am not even sure how such a thing would work. I do believe, however, the government should tell people not to kill their existing children. No one can force a woman to continue a pregnancy…it is a natural biological process. I forgot where I read this, otherwise I would give credit, but someone said “I cannot force you to remain pregnant by not allowing you an abortion, anymore than I can force you to breathe but not allowing you to stick a plastic bag over your head.”
It is interesting you mention the well-being of a woman and her children as a reason for abortion. The fetus is just as much her child and family as her born children.
Also, we get that pro-choicers are not opposed to having children. Especially children that are born to financially well-off, married 30-somethings. But if you are a young, single college student, sure it is your choice…but choosing to let the child live is a dumb choice that will screw over your education and make you inferior to men.
Cranium- We women can control our lives just fine without “choicing” our children, born or unborn.
Men like Berger and cranium are bright and do realize that abortion further degrades women and “keeps women in their place.”
This is why they are so vocal in support of abortion. It is not for any reason that comes close to caring about women. Any woman who has survived an abusive relationship or has been pressured to abort by the father has no problem picking out the mysoginists among us.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart to Prolife men who love us and realize we don’t have to kill anyone to become equal to men.
p.s. When I was pro-choice in high school, I went on a trip to a small town in Rwanda with a liberal organization. The leaders of the group (all men btw) educated and empowered the local women by telling them they needed to have the right to kill their unborn so they could control their bodies and be equal to men. Looking at the Rwandan women, I had never seen a group of people more baffled and horrified in my life.
You amaze me Praxedes. Your deliberative ability to completely and utterly misconstrue what is said, to misrepresent clear and unequivocal statements, re-asign key words and phrases and to twist and distort what is being said is genuinely gob-smacking. Well done. You completely destroy any semblence of rational debate you may purport to participate in.
cranium
November 5th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
One more time, since you seem to be struggling with it. If abortion rights are necessary in order to make women equal in society, then women are not equal by nature. Why? Because abortion is not a natural process. It is an interruption of a natural process. If you believe abortion rights are required to for women’s equality, then you cannot believe women are equal on their own. This is the logical requirement of that position. If you hold the one, you must hold the other, or else you either don’t really believe abortion rights are necessary, or you haven’t really thought this position through, or you are a hypocrite. This is not rocket science.
You amaze me Praxedes.
Thanks cran. The feeling is mutual.
One more time, lets see if you can get it.
Women are intrinsically at least the equal of men.
Women’s equal RIGHTS are limited by anything which prevents them controlling their own bodies.
No-one is saying they must have an abortion to ‘prove’ or ‘establish’ their equality. What is required is that no individual or group prevents women from doing what they wish or need.
It is those that are trying to tell women what they must or must not do who engender inequality of gender.
Any person who attempts to coerce or force any woman to have an abortion is a monster and a criminal. Any person who attempts to prevent or delay a woman from having an abortion if she so wishes, is not a whole lot better.
How ‘natural’ is heart transplantation or hip replacement? They are also interruptions of a ‘natural process’.
It is not abortion rights per se which are required for womens equality. It is the right to control their own body and destiny. Equal pay, equal political access, equal educational opportunities. This also includes access to contraception and abortion.
So stop trying to cast invalid assertions.
” Because abortion is not a natural process. It is an interruption of a natural process.”
No surgical procedure is a “natural process”. The liberal philosophy upon which modern western civilization is based includes the fundamental right of self-ownership. This right of self-ownership includes the right to interrupt unwanted natural processes if the person feels that it is in their best interest to do so. That’s really the only justification that abortion needs.
Robert, Cranium and all the other pro-abortion men who are commenting…i just want to point out that when women are pregnant we are not weak, defenseless creatures that must lay around the house for 9 months. You act like when a woman is pregnant she can’t do anything else but BE pregnant and certainly cannot hold down a job or go to school or contribute to society in any meaningful way. That is how each one of you pompous men come across to all of us pro-life ladies.
I’ll have you know that I worked 50 hours a week while pregnant including 3 weeks without a single day off while 7 months pregnant (that was torture but I did it!). I was certainly not some sick, weak, pitiful lil ole lady in need of big strong men like yourself giving me the right to kill my son so that I could be equal to you.
You can huff all you want Cranium and claim thats not what you meant but that is EXACTLY how your comments come across… as incredibly sexist and with a sneer on your face when you talk about a NATURAL part of being a woman (carrying a baby). While you “defend” women’s right to kill their babies you just demean us all and insinuate how weak and stupid we are in your estimation.
Sydney stop whining. Kudus to you for being a stellar mother and a pro-life martyr and for being married, unlike those selfish mommies who have sex out of wedlock and now must prostrate themselves at the feet of kind, selfless CPC workers (forgot to comment when you posted that little rant a couple weeks back).
Oops, digression. Anyway, what you’re wiilfully forgetting is that you elected to get pregnant and remain pregnant. If abortion were not legal right now and I got pregnant, I’d be pretty angry to have to deal with so much bodily self-sacrifice to have a kid I didn’t want. What scares you so much about cranium acknowledging that pregnancy and motherhood are–shock–labor-intensive? Maybe because such an acknowledgment brings to the fore an understanding that anything so demanding, like motherhood, should be entirely voluntary?
Crying SEXISM the minute a pro-choice male points out the inherently demanding nature of reproduction only serves as a cover for a very antifeminist desire: for women to just shut up and suck it up in the name of a higher good, i.e. the fetus, the family, the state.
cranium, what about men’s destinies? For a short time of pleasure they’re forced to pay child support? Mothers have been intimately connected to and nurturing their children for weeks before this issue can even come up. Oh, the inequality of it all!
And a hip replacement is unnatural, so what’s the big deal about unnaturally killing a child? Really?
I’m overweight.
I didn’t intend to get this way. I did admittedly consume more calories than my body used, but I was really hoping my thighs wouldn’t notice. I remember learning about nutrition in school and they said I could stay safe from weight gain as long as I was careful. So I ate off the low-fat menu, went to a few Zumba classes, and even took some diet pills to be sure. I guess I’m unlucky because none of it worked, and now I’m fat.
I have decided that I want to reverse the process of obesity because it is making my life more difficult than that of a thin person.
I know I have the choice to terminate my excess weight naturally through diet and exercise- but that would be too inconvenient for me and would probably take at least nine months or so.
I choose liposuction, a breast reduction and a tummy tuck. Immediately.
But that’s not all. I believe my surgeries should be paid for by all the thin people. It is my right to look good in a bikini, and since none of this is my fault, I am sure as heck not going to pay the bill. It’s the least all the lucky thin people can do for me, to make me equal with them.
Don’t try to tell me that I should have made wiser choices in the first place, and that no one was forcing me to eat all those fries. I have a huge appetite that’s impossible for me to control.
If you don’t give me free surgery right now, you are forcing me to stay fat and denying me the same right to a happy, bodily autonomous life that all those thin people have. I will never be equal to a thin person until I have access to a free, safe and legal plastic surgeon, ready to nip and tuck me at a moment’s notice. I’ll try to only use his services on the rare occasion, I promise.
Miami Beach, here I come! (Now, where did I put those potato chips?)
Michelle,
Brilliant! A point very well made.
When your plastic surgeon is done with you I would love a breast, face, and butt lift, in addition to several nips and tucks. Its not my fault I got old and flabby! It isn’t fair that only women with money and celebrities can afford all these procedures as they age and I can’t! Oh sure I could exercise, apply makeup more skillfully, eat better, stay active. But that is such an inconvenience and won’t do what a good plastic surgeon can do and in much shorter time.
How do you think I feel working with all these pretty young things? You can’t fathom my emotional trauma. Mental health is certainly an issue here and its never been specified exactly what is meant by mental health. I would think this is in the eye of the beholder and my emotional trauma certainly qualifies as a mental health issue.
Like you Michelle I agree that someone else should pay. This isn’t my fault, we all get old. Attractive young women owe me like thin women owe you. It isn’t fair that some women can easily afford cosmetic surgery and others cannot and that you and I should be denied simply because we can’t pay for it.
I won’t be equal to pretty young women until I also have access to a free plastic surgeon at my beck and call.
In the meantime, I’ll sit in my easy chair with my feet up enjoying adult beverages while watching my favorite TV shows.
joan,Megan, Robert Berger, and cranium
Abortion in Asia is causing an imbalance of the female/male birth ratio as women/couples choose to kill off unborn females, an update of the ages old practice of female infanticide. Were newborn females killed in the past because they were valued so highly? Hardly.
A doctor in India, when asked about his performance of sex selection abortions, regarded it as a good social policy. This way, he said, women were not forced to give birth to many “undesireable females” before having a much coveted male child.
Looks like abortion has become a more socially acceptable means to relegate women back to or maintain the status of second choice, second best, and second class, wouldn’t you agree?
I do not think my original point about equality of the sexes has at all been significantly addressed.
First, let us recall the original statement we were addressing:
“Equality of the sexes is impossible without free access to abortions.”
The “only one man and one woman” scenario was set up to show that you can have a state of affairs where women do not have access to free abortions not because of anti-choice theocracy, not because of bad leadership, but simply in a natural state of affairs. The two lone survivors could even agree with the quoted statement, but since they cannot perform an abortion and they are the only two people, there is no free access to abortion even though every human being alive wishes it. Thus, by the above statement, we have so free access to abortion so it follows that women are not equal to men, even though EVERY LIVING PERSON desires that equality. This shows that there is something intrinsic about teh woman that makes her inferior to a man. There is something lacking in her that mankind MUST be able to provide in order to raise her up to the level of dignity that a man has. Because without free access to abortion, the sexes can never be equal.
The second problem I see is the understanding of what we mean by the word “natural.” Natural, in this context, does not simply mean “found in nature” or “a product of nature.” No. Rather, when we say that an action is natural, we mean that the action acts in accordance with the nature or purpose of an object to either continue its proper function, bring it about, or restore it. Thus, heart surgery would indeed fall under the category of being natural because its aim is to restore proper function to teh heart. When one needs heart surgery, the heart is acting unnatural. It needs to be fixed and heart surgery restores that proper function. ON teh other hand, a tumor would not be natural because it interferes with proper function of the body.
Now, the question is, is being pregnant natural? IN other words, if a woman is pregnant, is her body functioning properly? Unfortunately I am gone all day and will not be around to continue this conversation, but hopefully some other pro-lifers see where I am going with this and can pick it up. My guess is that the pro-choice answer would be “it depends on if teh mother wants it” which I would argue is an absurd understanding of proper function. For we would never ever apply THAT criteria to any other bodily function. For example, would that be an adequate answer if I asked whether or not the heart pumping blood is proper function? “It is if you want it pumping blood, but it isn’t if you don’t want it pumping blood.” This of course is insane. The same thing is true of the answer I foresee to whether or not the woman’s body is functioning properly when pregnant.
Alrighty, talk to everyone later.
Michelle and Mary,
Awesome points.
Crying SEXISM the minute a pro-choice male points out the inherently demanding nature of reproduction only serves as a cover for a very antifeminist desire
LOL Megan, what do you cry when a prolife father states he wants to keep the child both parents knew full well they had a chance of conceiving? We all know prochoice females are so open-minded with prolife men and would never cry SEXISM.
Why is it all about what the mother wants? To not allow the father a say in any of it is sexism. You are only willing to listen to men that advocate you killing the child you both are responsible for creating.
Despite the many comparisons between abortion and slavery, I think abortion is worse. At least most slave owners had a financial interest in keeping their slaves alive, unless they were so rich that they worked their slaves to death and then bought a bunch of new ones. Due to all the misinformation about fetal development and a society that makes women believe they have no choice but to have an abortion, I don’t think women who’ve had abortions are worse than slave-owners, but the effects of abortion on unborn babies are worse than the effects of slavery on slaves.
Abortion doesn’t give women “equal rights” when it comes to deciding if they want to be parents. There’s a case in my Family Law book involving a young boy who was statutorily raped by his teenage babysitter. She got pregnant and had their baby, and when the court ordered him to pay child support, he and his parents argued that not only was he the father of the baby through being a victim of a crime, but he was a kid and didn’t have any money anyway. The court said he had to pay at least something to support the baby, who was “the fully innocent party.”
Not only did this kid become a father through being a crime victim, but the minute the sperm made it to the egg, he lost any and all legal control over the situation. He was at the mercy of an older girl who had statutorily raped him, and nothing he thought or felt made any difference. Courts usually don’t allow boys or men to give up their parental rights just because they don’t want to be parents. The general attitude is, “Well, you’re the one who decided to have sex, so don’t come crying to us.”
If it’s so unfair to “force” women to be mothers, it should be equally unfair to “force” men to be fathers. When abortion was illegal, anyone who had sex that led to conception had two choices – become at least the biological parent of a child, or break the law. If this was all about “equality of the sexes,” pro-choicers would be advocating for men to be able to legally give up their parental rights at any time for any reason. After all, they don’t get a nine-month period during which they can destroy a child they may have never wanted. Instead, “deadbeat dads” are villains of modern-day society and women who have abortions are embraced by pro-choicers as having exercised their “freedom of choice.” When women have had sex and don’t want to be mothers, they can legally opt out. When men have had sex and don’t want to be fathers, they’re the bad guys.
Hi Praxedes, 8:29am
Thank you for the compliment.
I think it should be pointed out that it is never sexist for a man to support abortion or profit from it, only to oppose it. Over the years I never recall feminists or abortion advocates telling PA men they were not in any position to support abortion, that a man supporting abortion could never experience an unwanted pregnancy, or that men supporting abortion should just shut up, this is a woman’s issue. Somehow, these were only characteristics of men, and rules to be followed by men, who opposed abortion.
Megan you come here often enough to attack and bite and froth at the mouth. Actually read something we post okay? I have posted my story enough times. I did NOT elect to get pregnant, okay Megan? My son was UNPLANNED. Did he deserve to die Megan?
“Not only did this kid become a father through being a crime victim, but the minute the sperm made it to the egg, he lost any and all legal control over the situation. He was at the mercy of an older girl who had statutorily raped him, and nothing he thought or felt made any difference. Courts usually don’t allow boys or men to give up their parental rights just because they don’t want to be parents. The general attitude is, “Well, you’re the one who decided to have sex, so don’t come crying to us.”
If it’s so unfair to “force” women to be mothers, it should be equally unfair to “force” men to be fathers.”
Your example is certainly an egregious miscarriage of justice. For the record, the pro-choice position is neutral on what, if any, state-mandated role the father must play in providing for his offspring. I personally would allow potential fathers to preemptively opt-out of paying child support or assuming legal responsibility for the child during the period in which an abortion is possible and only require it after both parents have positively affirmed their willingness to care for their new child.
@Mary, @Michelle: your analogies only hold when compared against a situation where abortion is provided and paid for by the state, which again is not a necessary component of the pro-choice position.
no joan,
Ever hear of medicaid funded abortions? Currently 17 states do. Also, the PA folks fought tooth and nail for “federally funded” abortion, i.e. taxpayer.
The favorite argument of the PA side has always been “fairness” and “concern” for the poor, which BTW only seems to rear its head when poor women can’t have abortions.
Michelle and I agree that fair is fair. PA people long argued it was not fair that rich women can get abortions and poor women cannot. What those with money, means and celebrity can do we should all be able to do,or does this just apply to abortion? Michelle and I couldn’t agree more and have simply expanded the argument. Are poor women any less responsible for their pregnancies than Michelle is for her obesity or my being an old has been? Absolutely not! So Michelle and I are using the same argument PA forces have used for years and continue to use.
Its only fair that poor women have the same access to abortion as rich women, that Michelle look like a fashion model and that I more closely resemble Raquel Welch. If this must be obtained by others paying, well, fair is fair.
Marauder
What a horrible case. There were really two victims in this entire thing- the boy and the baby. And you make an excellent point. You will be a good lawyer, I suspect. :)
I’ve been inspired by you- I want to make something for local CPC for Christmas. Or some sort of group- maybe Childhaven. Preferably both. I’m sewing vests right now. Maybe when I get these done, I’ll buy some doll patterns. I actually had this idea of volunteering with children’s groups, like Childhaven- maybe I could make Halloween costumes for them (of course I thought of this right after Halloween…ugh).
I’m not sure what I could do for the CPC, though! I don’t know who runs it (I tried volunteering once- I was stopped in my tracks when I read that you have to be eighteen). I can’t knit or crochet. Suggestions?
Sydney,’
Sorry, but you’re not a martyr for having a baby you didn’t want. Bringing a child into the world is a value-neutral activity; it’s what happens afterward that counts.
You know what Megan? If you were here I would punch you in your wretched face. I said he was UNPLANNED not that he was unwanted. My son was a human being from the moment of his conception. He is a person and not you or any other pro-baby killers will take away his right to live or his dignity EVER. Not when he was unborn and not when he is an old man. I am not trying to sound like I am a martyr. I am saying that if a woman has to inconvenience herself for a few months so that a child isn’t killed, SO BE IT. I did it, its not that hard, women like you need to stop being so selfish and whiny. Think about someone besides MEGAN for a minute, okay? the world does not revolve around YOU. I know that is a shocking concept for you to take in so I’ll give you a minute to mull that over.
No one has a right to kill children Megan even if a pregnancy is a drag on a woman. Once you’re pregnant another human being exists. I don’t have a right to kill you for being a wretch do I? No. Even though you have offended me and made derogatory comments about my son and insinuated his life isn’t worth much and even though my mother bear instincts want to tear you apart, I don’t have a right to end your life. Because right to life is granted by a Higher Power not by other human beings, even if I think you’re annoying, disrespectful, hateful, selfish and wonder what you’re doing to help society. You should be thankful your right to life is granted by God and not by other people.
You can’t force a person to be a mother or a father any more than you can force them to breath by not letting them put a plastic bag over their heads.
Pregnancy is a naturally occuring phenomenon. Abortion isn’t ‘value neutral’, it is murder. No one is forced to be pregnant any more than you are forced to fall down because of the law of gravity. No one can be forced to be pregnant because it as a naturally occuring event. Now, Joan will no doubt jump all over the crime of rape. Yes, rape exists. But the child conceived in rape is a naturally occuring person, powerless and innocent. You cannot force anyone to RAISE a child. Any women can legally not raise her own child. No one is forcing anyone to RAISE a child.
Joan and Megan believe that before pregnancy, the prospective mother and father must be planning and willing to have a child in order for that pregnancy to be acceptable to them. However, in the real world of real biology, pregnancy occurs after sexual intercourse. Just like the rotation of the earth, it’s not really up to us to decide exactly when conception will occur. But no, the pro-aborts will argue, it IS up to us to decide. Sorry, no, it’s not. You are trying to impose a man-made idea onto the natural world. A volcano doesn’t wait to erupt until it is given permission by a man or a woman. A child doesn’t wait to develop until it is given permission to do so. Biology is what it is. We who accept natural law and those of us who accept a moral code, we don’t need anyone to prove to us why murder is wrong. But a mentally ill person, cannot comprehend or believe in natural law. They are broken, mentally, they cannot learn, they cannot comprehend. They live in a mental cage where all events are controllable and all things that seem to stand in the way of that control are criminal. Poor pro-aborts and their broken reasoning…
Sydney, you insult all of us by suggesting that a new set of DNA is entitlement for entrance into the human community. That doesn’t say a lot for humanity. You demean yourself and all women by WHINING that zygotes should be entitled to the same rights as their adult mothers. Was sitting at a public health conference in Denver today, thinking about the sheer absurdity of Personhood 62. Seriously, when women are still dying in childbirth in the United States your lot zeroes in on codifying the rights of fertilized eggs?!! The US has a long way to go before women’s rights are fully realized, and yes–abortion is a HUMAN RIGHT, just as being able to give birth to a healthy baby is a HUMAN RIGHT.
Also, find out how many of your pro-life buddies support war, the death penalty, and liberal gun laws and then come back to me with your argument that the pro-choice mentality engenders a “culture of death.”
Well then what entitles us to “entrance to the human community” Megan? Who decides? You? Me? Who?
Hi Sydney,
You did not insult me.
You did not demean yourself or me as a woman. :)
Likewise Carla, I am not insulted or demeaned that you love all your children… including Aubrey and Jaime. :-)
“Seriously, when women are still dying in childbirth in the United States your lot zeroes in on codifying the rights of fertilized eggs?!! The US has a long way to go before women’s rights are fully realized, and yes–abortion is a HUMAN RIGHT, just as being able to give birth to a healthy baby is a HUMAN RIGHT.”
What a load of.
Yes, women die in childbirth. This is tragic. However, it is a medical problem that cannot be solved by legislation. What’s your solution? Mandate abortion when a mother’s life may be at risk? How does the existence of death in childbirth–a medical problem which medical researchers are striving to solve–make it wrong to fight for the lives of unborn children?
Being able to give birth to a healthy baby is a human right too? Okay, I want to do that right now. What? I’m not pregnant? Help, help, I’m being oppressed. Is this a right for postmenopausal women? Women whose uteri have been removed? Men?
Personhood 62 is a dumb law that draws attention to what pro-life policymakers actually care about: zygotes and fetuses rather than their mothers. And um, yes, legislation can improve public health. How bout the government, your beloved pro-life legislators, direct some money to improve women’s health so they can experience healthy pregnancies? Poverty is a huge indicator of who will fare well in pregnancy and who won’t.
But nah, it’s all about the unborn. Too bad if you’re an adult woman, the condom broke, you forgot to take the Pill, you goofed up, you were raped: your freedom’s up, time to surrender your body to the next generation.
I think you’re more insightful and compassionate than you come across here. Health is a human right, so yes, there should be rights attached to reproduction. Every woman–you, me, Mrs. Duggar, the lesbian next door–is entitled to a safe pregnancy, including the right to end that pregnancy. If you feel there are significant external obstacles preventing you from having a healthy baby in a safe manner, then yes, you have the right to demand that the State redress these issues. For example, a Mohawk woman, Katsi Cook, saw that an automobile manufacturing company was dumping chemicals into her reservation’s water supply. This resulted in many health complications for mothers and their babies, especially during breastfeeding when babies directly took in chemicals from their mothers’ bodies. Cook galvanized support among these women and challenged the automobile company and the government to clean up the area. Another example: women in developing countries experience high maternal mortality because there’s a shortage of skilled birth attendants. This is a direct example of a violation of rights.
I don’t think your universe is so circumscribed that you can’t see the importance of being able to give birth willingly and safely, and that there must be some recourse for women whose societies have failed to provide them with adequate resources to do so.
Young Christian Woman,
Exactly!
~~~
Every woman–you, me, Mrs. Duggar, the lesbian next door–is entitled to a safe pregnancy, including the right to end that pregnancy.
Megan,
You don’t realize how illogical that sounds? Being a mother is a privilege, not an entitlement.
Another example: women in developing countries experience high maternal mortality because there’s a shortage of skilled birth attendants. This is a direct example of a violation of rights.
Hi Megan,
I guess I often wonder why so many look to the government to solve things that groups around the world are already trying to solve???
http://rescuebabiesnow.org/
http://www.savingmothers.org/kits.html
We are responsible to help each other!!!!
Carla:
ABSOLUTELY. Unfortunately, funding needs to come from some place, and I think that if a government can finance a war, than it can finance NGOs or public improvement programs.
Also, I love SavingMothers. Great organization.
The funding comes from us.
You and I and others who love our fellow human beings and realize just HOW BLESSED we are in this country!
Thank you for showing me this side of you, Megan. :)
Am I entitled to some sperm? What if no one is willing to give it? Am I entitled to sex? With whom?