The gay abortionist who can’t find a baby to adopt
On November 20 the Toronto Star published an in-depth look at the shortage of abortionists in Canada, using pseudonymed Dr. Evan James, pictured above, as its focal point.
There are a few stories inside this article, which is worth reading in its entirety. But I’m pulling excerpts that focus on the psyche of this particular abortionist, because I’ve become more interested recently in the under-reported topic of the homosexual movement’s involvement in abortion.
Expanding on a comment I made on my recent post about the transgender student who ravaged a pro-life graphic display, here we have a man who simultaneously identifies with but fears or abhors women – but supports violating the decidedly female condition of pregnancy so as to supposedly place women on the same reproductive playing field as men.
This particular man supports abortion so strongly he’s willing to violently murder both early and late-term preborn babies himself – via a procedure many mothers later equate to surgical rape.
Meanwhile, he has discovered maternal/paternal instincts. This is a very mixed up man.
As a sidebar I note “Health Reporter” Megan Ogilvie needs to brush up on medical terminology and biology and quit obfuscating that who is being aborted…
Dr. Evan James never wavered in his determination to become an abortion provider….
He found that he enjoyed the work and was not put off by a woman’s tears or the tissue he extracted from her womb….
Only when his personal life was thrust up against his professional beliefs was his firm stance on abortion shaken.
James and his partner desperately wanted to adopt a child.
Suddenly, there were days when he found it hard to commit to being an abortion doctor. For the first time, he began to see shades of grey instead of just black and white.
As [28-yr-old] James’s desire to have a family deepened, he began to think an uneasy thing: how could he terminate pregnancies when each abortion meant there would be one less child for adoption?
He also wondered how he would explain what he did for a living to his adopted child. After all, wouldn’t his son or daughter have been born because the birth mother had not chosen abortion?…
Because he is gay, James also considered becoming a doctor for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community….
James saw his first abortion when he was 22….
He was keen to watch, wondering how he would feel during the procedure – and after, when the doctor looked at the pregnancy tissue….
James remembers feeling a gentle shock each of those first few times. But even after viewing a 2nd-term abortion, he was not haunted by what he saw.
“During the direct examination, you might see an arm or an umbilical cord or, even, the body. It doesn’t all come out in one piece. With your imagination, you can see that it resembles a human….
“I didn’t understand that until I saw it,” he says. “I very strongly believe that women make a maternal decision when they decide to end a pregnancy. Because they are deciding for that child it is the best option, that (by having an abortion) they are preventing suffering and preventing a life that they wouldn’t wish upon anyone else, let alone their child. That was very powerful for me.”…
[T]he first step towards becoming providers is being able to watch a termination. The next is to find out whether they can do one.
In a woman’s 1st trimester, a surgical abortion… is a straightforward process, taking no more than 10 minutes…..
Pulling up on the vacuum’s plunger, the doctor sweeps the catheter along the wall of the uterus to remove what physicians call “the products of conception.”…
“It turns out,” he says, “that it’s something I’m good at doing.”…
“I tell them [aborting mothers] that this is something we will get through together.”…
An added complication to Canada’s shortage of abortion doctors is the scarcity of those who will do the procedure in the 2nd trimester. A doctor who has no qualms giving an abortion to a woman who is 12 weeks pregnant may never be comfortable terminating a pregnancy at 20 weeks.
“They are more graphic, they just are,” says Dr. Meredith Simon, medical director of the Kensington Clinic…. “The fetus is bigger, and there is a lot more tissue.”…
In the days after his return from Morgentaler, James was buoyant. He was proud that he was able to do – and do well – the thing he had, for years, been so passionate about. His path forward seemed clear….
But a month later, in August 2009, James and his partner, “Jack,” started the adoption process. They had been married for 2 years and felt it was time to start their family. Suddenly, James’s commitment to being an abortion doctor faltered….
One year after questions started to swirl through his mind, he has made his choice.
James will be an abortion doctor.
Not only that, but James plans to do 2nd-trimester abortions as part of his practice…..
What he learned about himself is that he is not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. This means both abortion and adoption are part of the spectrum of care he believes in. With this distinction James was able to reconcile having one foot in an abortion clinic and the other in an adoption agency.
“In some ways, this wait has made me more pro-choice, because I see that women have all of these options,” says James. “I don’t think I’ll ever have trouble being honest with my children about telling them what I do. To me, it will allow me to say to my child: your mother had a choice, and she decided that you should be here and wanted somebody to care for you.”
That he is part of a profession that, at its roots, cares for people in need also helped James regain his firm stance on abortion….
He hopes his child will be proud of him for taking it.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
May God Himself rescue this lost soul. <shudder>
Jesus, I trust in YOU. +
Gay or not, abortionists should not be allowed to adopt. His child, if he ever has one, is more likely to be terrified of him than proud of him. Reading this article made me sick to my stomach.
On a related note, I was watching a Discovery Health special last night called “Quads with 2 Moms.” It was typical sensationalist trash for the most part, but because they conceived through IVF (and implanted all four embryos), they had images of their children at just five days after conception. They showed the photos to the camera: “This is Andrew. This one is Sofia.” etc. They understood. The real issue is not your sexual orientation, but your willingness to see the humanity of the unborn child.
This story makes me sick to my stomach.
How very sick. Oh please Jesus, forbid any child be placed in this man’s home. He is so thoroughly deceived and lost!
This was to have been my first story in Proliferations. Big Blue Wave showcases it but comments on the article completely dismissing that lack of humanity of the pre born but like you I am amazed at how this abortionist completely compartmentalizing his thinking. Wanting to adopt and committing abortion, hiding his profession and then thinking forward how he will justify what he does to future children should he and partner be allowed to adopt. It also shows how MSM wants to be perceived as so politically correct in their presentations especially on the homosexual issue and abortion that they don’t realize how they twist their story and come off looking like idiots. I agree this is one mixed up man for sure.
Humans are stupid.
But GOD can fix stupid.
Abortion providers such as this continuously deceive themselves and minimalize what it is they are removing, as they have all studied prenatal development in med school (they know it is more than just tissue, that it is an individual human organism), in order to justify their decision to be abortion providers and as to remove any qualms they may have.
BTW…love the titel
I tell them that this is something we will get through together.
These abortionists talk as if they expect to get a Christmas card every year from the mothers whose children they killed.
Delusional.
abortionists should NEVER be allowed to adopt, regardless of the other half of their life.
Same thing applies to hit men and gang members.
WOW. This man gives new meaning to the term “double-minded”. I agree with those who pray that no child will ever enter his home.
Sounds like he’s just about ripe for a conversion.
I am afraid of what violence he would commit, later on and without any remorse, if he decided that he no longer wanted a child after all.
WOW! Talk about compartmentalizing. You could not make up this stuff. This so sick it made me want to puke. God help this man. Every good doctor I ever met wanted to be a healer to preserve and save lives not be on a “search, destroy and mutilate mission”. Only the butchers who couldn’t cut it became the abortionist by default. I do pray he will never adopt and when the adoption agency asks “What do you do for a living?”, they will deny him when he answers “I dialate women’s cervixes, mutilate unborn “fetuses” with a curette, vacuum suction them out and then piece back together unborn babies to make sure that I got it all”.
I had a migraine before I read this and now it’s even worse! Some things are so sick that they’re just hard to comprehend. But I bet this guy will be able to find a baby to adopt, even if he has to get one on the gray market.
It’s interesting that there’s a shortage of abortionists in liberal Canada. I heard that this is true in other countries, such as South Africa and Spain. I guess there still are some medical professionals that think that abortion is just a bit more involved than pulling a tooth.
Chris Arsenault hit the nail on the head with her comment about gang members and hit men.
That’s exactly what abortionists are: HIT MEN FOR HIRE.
Gay or not, this “doctor” should be kept as far away from BORN children as is humanly possible.
This entire story makes me want to vomit.
Jill,
You are on to something very consequential here, and should not let go. The gays of the 1980’s mercilessly ripped into Cardinal O’Connor in New York for his refusal to support abortion rights. I have the NY Times quotes ad will dig them up later.
This is more than just a political alliance between feminists and gays. Many in the gay community refer to heterosexuals contemptuously as “breeders”, and in that they differ little from the feminists who take a dim view of children and large families.
When it comes to the children abortionist Evan James might raise…Do his worries of what they might think of him have any scientific merit?
There have been whole books recounting the special and personal struggles of presidents children, “All the Presidents’ Children: Triumph and Tragedy in the Lives of America’s First Families” by Doug Wead; and the children of preachers,
“Memoirs of a Preacher’s Kid” by Jessica Ellis… Does anyone know of a study on the adult outcomes of the children of abortionists?
Remember the story of Dr. Anthony Levatino
He ran abortion clinics and he and wife adopted then child was run over by a car and that tragedy opened his eyes to the tragedy of abortion. A convert….and now pro life activist.
Thank goodness this guy was able to successfully rationalize his way out of any sort of pangs of conscience. 9_9
So I think we should take a poll. If the only options allowed for a specific fetus was to be aborted, or to be born and then adopted by an abortion provider, which would you choose?
Hmm — wonder if abortionists take their kids to work on “take your daughters to work day?”
I say let the abortionist – uh, er, abortion provider adopt the “specific fetus,” who will grow up and become so horrified by her parent’s profession that she becomes a prolife convert. ;-)
Golly gee, KM, that’s gotta be one of the dumbest questions I’ve ever seen asked on a PRO-LIFE website.
Set up a poll on your own website. I’m sure you’ll have some takers.
KushielsMoon @ 2:03pm
Ask your question of anyone who is actually a child of an abortion provider and 99% will say they would rather be alive.
I think it is rather sick to suggest that anyones life (least of all a childs life) might be a “fate worse than death”.
Tommy R, Jill had an interesting couple of blogs about “The Abortion Nurse’s Daughter.” It was pretty grim reading, but quite interesting.
KM isn’t following the vote on the other thread? There’s not a real pro-lifer alive who’d kill a baby rather than see it live. That’s what being pro-life means, but of course the abortion advocates have trouble with the concept. If the child was going to grow up to be Hilter, we woudn’t abort it. If the child was going to grow up eating nothing but dandelion leaves, we wouldn’t abort it. If the child was going to be born to a couple of idiot parents, we wouldn’t abort it (obviously, it happens all the time, lol!). Good lawd, over the last 40 years I’ve seen every crazy hypothetical situation the pro-aborts can come up with, and the answer is still going to be: NO, we wouldn’t abort the child.
Ok, so there is a connection between the gay rights movement and the pro-abortion movement. But I’m wondering if there is proof of a connection between the pro-abortion movement and the anti-adoption movement, something juicy, like the pro-aborts propping up the anti-adoption folks financially. It’s no secret that the hard core pro-aborts (meaning they are NOT pro-choice, if you get my drift) are very disdainful of adoption and take a dim view of it. But I’d like to know if there is proof that the two groups are in cohoots with each other.
I’ve become more interested recently in the under-reported topic of the homosexual movement’s involvement in abortion.
I too am becoming more interested in this topic. I’d like to see some wide-reaching, legitimate data on this, not just, “Look, here’s so-and-so the gay and vehement pro-choicer. This confirms what we knew about gay people all along.”
[H]ere we have a man who simultaneously identifies with but fears or abhors women – but supports violating the decidedly female condition of pregnancy so as to supposedly place women on the same reproductive playing field as men.
Jill, I’m sorry, but looking at this part I get the impression that you don’t know the first thing about homosexuality. Gay men don’t sexually desire women and sexually desire men instead. End of definition. I have met a lot of gay men throughout the years and I have never, ever gotten the impression that any of them hated women. Not wanting to have sex with someone has nothing to do with fearing or abhorring that person. I have absolutely zero desire for lots of people, but do I fear or abhor them? No. I’m sure there are gay men who fear or abhor women, but that’s not why they’re gay.
Besides, if gay men all “identified with women,” gay male couples would be, what? Wannabe lesbians?
I really don’t care if you think homosexuality is a sin, but from what I can tell, you have absolutely no comprehension of gay sexuality besides the fact that gay people have sex with each other.
@Ceecee – I don’t know if there is a link, but did you ever notice that the media is pretty anti-adoption? Adopted children, especially in horror movies, are usually portrayed as maladjusted or downright evil. The “Son of Sam” (David Bertkowitz) was adopted, and the media metioned this time and time again. However, I’ve never heard the media mention that a murderer or psycho or some other deranged person is the biological child of their parents!
It is “acceptable,” however, for a liberal celebrity to travel to another country to adopt a baby.
@Marauder — Some gay men DO dislike women and straight people in general, referring to us as “breeders.” And I am always puzzled by feminist criticism of the fashion industry and their distored ideas of how women’s bodies should look. The fashion industry is dominated by gay men, that’s an open secret. These men seem to think that the idea female body should look like that of a six foot anorexic nineteen year old male. How many women have bodies like this? I have yet to hear a straight man say “hey, look at the hipbones on that one!” Yet, if someone points this out, they are decried as being a “homophobe.”
It’s amazing the things a person will tell themselves so as not to face the truth of their actions. Sounds like this man has found all the excuses he can because he lacks the courage to do what must be done, which is to not perform abortions.
May God lead us closer to His graces and give us the strength and courage to give up abortion!
I would also like to know where this “here we have a man who simultaneously identifies with but fears or abhors women” comes from?
“I am afraid of what violence he would commit, later on and without any remorse, if he decided that he no longer wanted a child after all.” – what’s that all about? Abortion and infanticide are chalk and cheese.
I shall resist the obvious response to your little ditty yor bro ken.
Abortion and infanticide are chalk and cheese.
This, coming from a man who claims a baby’s not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut after birth. The level of denial required to be a pro-abort is just astounding to me.
Some gay men DO dislike women and straight people in general, referring to us as “breeders.”
Yeah, as I said, I’m sure there are some gay men who don’t like women. That’s still not why they’re gay.
Anyway, I sure as heck wouldn’t want this guy raising a kid, but it’s interesting that he started having the slightest of doubts about abortion once he wanted a kid himself.
“Pregnancy tissue” has got to be one of the dumbest phrases I’ve ever heard.
Denial of what Kel? The fact that most people don’t consider a fetus a baby until they can actually hold it in their arms?
It may be astounding to you Kel but how do you think women who choose abortion see it? To the vast majority there is no correlation between abortion and infanticide.
Maybe these are part of your ‘level of denial’.
Phillymiss,
What a great idea – Take your child to work day! I wonder if there are actually any abortionists who have participated in the “take your kid(s) to work day”? Can you imagine the horror? ”Oh, here, son, this is what you call a vacuum aspirator and this helps get rid of the “contents of the uterus.” Or if it’s a later term pregnancy, like Gianna Jessen, who of course, survived a saline abortion, “and, daughter, this is a needle filled with saline and it will be injected into the fetus’s heart.”
Of course this would probably never happen because the abortionist knows deep within his/her heart a child would be traumatized and horrified at the evil of it all. Such a secretive dirty business it is.
Gee, to Susan Smith and that Yates woman it was chalk and chalk. I don’t have a handy set of statistics to quote, but some post-abortive women who experience extreme detachment are not above killing their living children.
I have read a lot of true crime accounts of infanticide as well as mothers who kill their older children that have Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, but as I say, don’t have the numbers. There are also people who believe that a lot of SIDS deaths were actually infanticides, but of course that’s a terrible suspicion to have toward a family who tragically lost their infant to natural causes.
I’m willing to bet that the ‘vast majority’ of women who seek abortion for the first time do not have a true understanding of what they are really doing. Reading the testimonials of women and teenage girls who regret their abortions is very sobering. Many had no idea how terrible the aftermath would be. Many abortions, according to published statistics, are performed on women who are terminating their second or third. For those women, I’m guessing that they are experiencing a dreadful sense of detachment and post-traumatic stress. One commenter here who is post-abortive wrote a very revealing sentence recently: “I cannot fathom carrying a pregnancy to term.” Denial is a powerful coping mechanism. People who have experienced trauma use denial to get beyond an event that is too painful to deal with in the present moment.
The most dangerous denial, though, comes from abortion advocates who lead others to the slaughter.
Hm, I wonder if an orthopedic surgeon would drag their child into the operating room to watch a hip replacement? Or a neurosurgeon take theirs to see the removal of a tumor? What would a proctologist show theirs? Maybe an ambulance driver could take theirs to a motor vehicle fatality? That wouldn’t cause trauma would it?
ninek, I agree that infanticide is horrific, whatever the cause, as you have shown us in your explanation. Still has nothing to do with abortion though.
Your denial ain’t just a river in Egypt! Infantacide and abortion are linked, but you don’t care about truth. You just like to come here and argue. That’s ok. You make sense every two hundred sentences or so, lol!
And yes, I went to work with the parent that worked in a medical office, and yes I saw a most gnarly, nasty tumor get removed. So, yeah, it happens. I wasn’t traumatized, mostly because the surgery wasn’t killing anyone’s baby. I’ve always liked medical shows, even House’s silly accent and facial hair. It’s not lupus, it’s never lupus!
@cranium…
yep, there’s something magical in cutting the umbilical cord and exposing a tumor-like mass to air… and so amazing that they all turn out to be human rather than sea slugs!
there’s quite a difference in exposing your child to life taking (no matter how ”sanitized” the are versus life-saving procedures, no matter how “graphic” they may be. (I still can’t look at picture of my spine surgery!)
are we sure you’ve been exposed to the air long enough to be considered human??
To you, they are linked, but not to most. A developing fetus is distinctly different to a babe in arms to the majority of people. Abortion is terminating a life before it is born. Infanticide is killing someone who has been born and exists in the same world as you and I. And that is how most people ‘see’ it. Otherwise abortion would not exist.
A medical ‘office’. So was it a brain tumor being removed? If you were a paramedic, would you take a young child to a motor vehicle accident scene?
What a confused little comment ‘just say’. Your drawing of totally unrelated parallels is something.
And what do we usually call “terminating a life”? Is there a single word to describe this action?
No xalisae, there isn’t.
Here’s a hypothetical scenario that I would love to know Mr. Gay Abortionist’s answer to:
SUPPOSE they actually identified a “gay gene’ and had irrefutable PROOF that said gene does in fact make one gay…
Mr. Gay abortionist is all about equal rights for gays and is a staunch supporter of such.
In comes Patient X who wants an abortion because her fetus tested positive for the gay gene and she does NOT want a gay child.
Would he refuse to do the “procedure” because said fetus is gay and he can’t bear the thought of killing one of “his own” OR, would he treat the fetus as any other and abort it anyway…OR would he think “now’s my chance to have the baby “we” want..AND, it’s GAY, like us. Maybe I can make a deal with this woman to not abort and we can get the baby we want. I could never abort a gay fetus.”
What do you all think the gay community would do if they knew there were gay abortionists aborting babies just because they’re gay?
It would cause an uproar the likes of which have never been seen. Talk about a conflict of interest…
Cran at 7:40pm,
Maybe that’s how most pro-aborts “see” it. You’re confusing environment and stages of development. That pre-born human still exists in this world, whether you would like to admit it or not. That pre-born human is just inside of his or her mother’s womb and developing in this world. Did you exist when you were in your mother’s womb?
This doctor does not have to adopt. He merely has to find a nice girl, love her, marry her, and produce his/her own flesh and blood child.
It isn’t rocket science. It is humanity and reproduction 101.
Did you hear about the woman who aborted her baby? She aborted because she wanted to adopt. “I wanted to give a baby a good home. I aborted because my child was an unwanted child, and I did not want her to grow up to be an unwanted child. (Not really. It is just meant to point out the absuridty of the situation.)
Lots of prayers for him….God can convert any heart…
Cran- if you prefer that we call abortion “terminating a life,” do you mind if from now on we refer to abortion doctors as “The Terminators”?
BTW- I don’t mind using your term to describe abortion- are there any other euphemisms that you would like us to use to make you feel better about your endorsement of the poisoning or dismemberment of amnio-breathing humans?
Saying that the prerequisite of full legal rights towards a human being is that the individual needs to be held by its parents and loved by them is saying that the right to life in not inherent.
cranium November 22nd, 2010 at 8:26 pm No xalisae, there isn’t.
Silly me. I was expecting honesty and intellectual integrity from someone who thinks it should be legal for a mother to deem her own child “unwanted” and be legally permitted to kill him/her. What was I thinking?
Hm, I wonder if an orthopedic surgeon would drag their child into the operating room to watch a hip replacement? Or a neurosurgeon take theirs to see the removal of a tumor? What would a proctologist show theirs? Maybe an ambulance driver could take theirs to a motor vehicle fatality? That wouldn’t cause trauma would it?
My dad was a pharmacist. Once he came to school to tell the class about his profession for Career Day. I was proud of him. I don’t think orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, ambulance drivers, or proctologists, even though they deal with some pretty serious situations, would have a problem explaining to their children, or their children’s friends, what they do for a living, would they, cran?
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Is anyone having trouble getting their comments to post? Please let me know.
I was, but I switched to Opera, and it’s fine now.
http://kill.askdefine.com/
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing
He can find lots of babies.
He just can’t keep himself from killing them.
Mike, interesting question. But already, I wonder, do women abortionists have any problem aborting a female because the mother prefers a male?
Oh, Crane, back to yesterday’s; no it was not a brain tumor, but I couldn’t give out any information unless I want to out which parent worked where and all that. Although it was years before Hipaa, you never know who’s roaming the web. I can just imagine the phone call, “Stop writing about me on the interwebs!” Not all our older parents are afraid of the computer, lol!
Xalisae, I was commenting on another website recently, and the abortionist there actually quoted a dictionary definition including a group of crows as a definition of murder to prove to me that abortion isn’t murder! Killing a baby is not a murder of crows, so I guess it must be ok. haha!
I am being honest xalisae, there is more than one term for terminating a life. Do you claim that there is only one term? Explain how my answer lacks intellectual integrity.
Call them what you wish Michelle. Far be it from me to tell you what to do.
So it wasn’t a major and invasive procedure conducted within an operating theatre then ninek?
I am being honest xalisae, there is more than one term for terminating a life. Do you claim that there is only one term? Explain how my answer lacks intellectual integrity.
I didn’t ask how many terms there were for this, or what they were. I just asked if there was a single word that would describe such an act. You said there was not. I illustrated how that was a lie on your part, and one you submitted knowingly, apparently, if you acknowledge that the one I submitted accurately describes it. Why are euphemisms so important to you that you would deny an obvious statement? Do you really need such a mental crutch to keep from being repulsed by the actions you advocate?
Just for clarity xalisae, let’s repeat your question.
“And what do we usually call “terminating a life”? Is there a single word to describe this action?”
That was the extent of your question. And the answer is that there are many words and terms for terminating a life.
You are aware of the various forms of ‘terminating a life’ aren’t you? How you could think one word or term would encompass them all is beyond me.
So on what basis do you claim that I lied, or that I was dishonest, or that I lacked intellectual integrity?
I applied no euphemisms. And what did you submit, apart from the original question followed by your casting of aspertions?
What mental crutch is it that you refer to?
Gee, I wish you would elaborate on what you are trying to do here. Can you understand how I might be wondering about either your intellectual integrity or capacity?
” Is there a single word to describe this action (terminating a life, as you put it)?”
Does the SINGLE WORD-killing-accurately surmise the term you used to describe abortion? Please submit a “yes” or “no” answer, as I’m tired of the verbal gymnastics you insist on engaging in to keep from making the connection in your own mind for some reason.
Since you seem to be overwhelmed by the fact there are “various forms” of “terminating a life”, let me explain it in a sufficiently simple manner for you:
kill
Noun
1 the act of terminating a life [syn: killing, putting to death]
See? That one term seems to be adequate to describe the act of “terminating a life”, no matter how you go about it or the circumstances of the demise. It’s good enough for Merriam-Webster, at any rate, and I think they hold just a tad more sway than you. But I’ll let you get back to your rationalizing and philosophizing to excuse the inexcusable now.
Also, I’d just like to point out what appears to be an obvious aversion to referring to abortion as “killing” you display. I think that says more than any verbose tirade I could ever muster.
cranium said: “The fact that most people don’t consider a fetus a baby until they can actually hold it in their arms?”
Yes that is so right. When we feel our “fetus” move we say, “Oh the fetus just kicked!”
And yes when we tell people after seeing the ultrasound, “oh we are having a fetus boy…”
And then again when we miscarry at 6 months we all say (out loud please!) “I lost my fetus.”.
Get your head checked you turkey-burger.
“To the vast majority there is no correlation between abortion and infanticide.”
I think you are quite wrong there. Most women KNOW they have killed their baby, they have destroyed a new life. They KNOW. Many simply do not openly admit it though.
“…here we have a man who simultaneously identifies with but fears or abhors women…”
As a gay pro-life man, I take issue with the assertion that gay men are somehow innately feminine or identify with women. This is a blatant (and often inaccurate) stereotype. I am proud of my male gender and I identify with men. I am attracted to men but that doesn’t have any relevance to the horror of abortion which involves taking the life of an innocent child.
I love your blog for pro-life news but it has been increasingly anti-gay. We may disagree on my right to marry the person I love but that is irrelevant to abortion. You may lose a dedicated reader if you continue to insult me and my sexuality.
You may lose a dedicated reader if you continue to insult me and my sexuality.
C’mon Abe. This blog is dedicated to saving humans from murder. Any correlation that adds to these murders needs to be looked at. I know it may be hard to fathom, but the world doesn’t revolve around your sexual encounters.
Ah, your question was specifically in regard to abortion xalisae. Since you were not part of the ‘conversation’ a few of us were having at that time and simply dropped in your question with no context or reference, how did you expect me to know you weren’t talking about all sorts of ‘terminating a life’ scenarios? I’m not psychic.
I’m not surprised you became overwhelmed with frustration and intellectually overwrought.
So, your question is actually “And what do we usually call “terminating a life” through abortion? Is there a single word to describe this action?” isn’t it?
And then you provide us with a definition:
kill
Noun
1 the act of terminating a life [syn: killing, putting to death]
from the Merriam-Webster.
Well for a start I see a whole lot more of a range of definitions and descriptors when I look it up, such as ‘to deprive of life’:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kill
Suicide is to ‘kill’ ourselves. Euthanasia is when someone assists us to ‘kill’ ourselves’. To end a project prematurely is to ‘kill’ the project’. Murder is when we ‘kill’ someone who doesn’t want to die – you know, like the death penalty. Or we may ‘kill’ someone in a motor vehicle accident.
Anyway, to answer the question you thought you were asking – “And what do we usually call “terminating a life” through abortion? Is there a single word to describe this action?” – the truth is we usually call it abortion, or terminating a pregnancy, or terminating a fetus. Those who oppose abortion call it killing a child or even murder. But then that’s a subjective application of language.
So, NO, it is not. And its not an ‘aversion’, I simply don’t see it as ‘killing’.
“turkey-burger” – would you like fries with that angel?
“Most women KNOW they have killed their baby, they have destroyed a new life. They KNOW” – prove it.
Abe, I asked that question early in this thread and did not get a response. It’s one of those little ‘rattlers’ which get tossed into the middle of an article to try to add strength to the case. I also see it used in many articles on various topics penned by conservatives.
“– the truth is we usually call it abortion, or terminating a pregnancy, or terminating a fetus. Those who oppose abortion call it killing a child or even murder. But then that’s a subjective application of language. ……So, NO, it is not. And its not an ‘aversion’, I simply don’t see it as ‘killing’.
Cranium,
Can we terminate you?
No more than I would wish for you to be terminated Jasper. I’ve been born, entered this world, had the umbilical cord cut etc. etc.
Plus my mother chose to have me, so here I am.
“Most women KNOW they have killed their baby, they have destroyed a new life. They KNOW” – prove it.
LOL! And cranium once again shows himself to be *excellent* at dodging questions, since he doesn’t try to prove any of his “facts” here. Instead, he makes mud pies and throws them at other posters any time they ask him to back up his facts and accuses them of “subjective language” and throws out statements like “the majority of people” and “most people.” Next time he makes any sort of statement at all, I think that’s what we should tell cranium. “Prove it.” Oh, and while we’re at it, in regards to his “facts” – when he can prove there is no God, we’re all ears.
The statement I asked for proof of is much more subjective than the fact that polls that have appeared on this site show that the majority of people think abortion is ok either in any circumstance or in certain circumstances. Then there is the sheer massive volume of abortions that we keep being told occur each year. I think those add up to “the majority of people” or “most people”.
If you care to read my comments thoroughly, you’ll find that many of them are about the whole subject, and the terminology used, being subjective. That’s the point. I just try to let you know why abortion exists and persists. It’s because people just do not see it or think of it or feel about it the same way that you do. That is what I keep saying.
I have no need to prove there is no god. If I claimed that an alien race was on earth killing people and releasing controlled replicants into society I think you would have a justified expectation that I provide some sort of evidence before taking any action. In this case you are the one making a claim for the existence of something. Therefore it is up to you to provide the evidence if you wish others to believe your story. So if you can come up with some evidence I will be “all ears”.
I’ve been born, entered this world, had the umbilical cord cut etc. etc.
Plus my mother chose to have me, so here I am.
Oh, I see, once the umbilical cord is cut then you get your rights…and the when you’re in your mothers belly, you haven’t ‘entered the world’ yet..
thats facinating news…
Angel- you took the words right out of my mouth! I think the statement that most people don’t consider a fetus a baby until they can actually hold it in their arms is radical and false. I have never known anyone who thinks this, even those who say they are pro choice. You must associate with the people at NARAL and NOW, Cranium.
Comments like this are good examples of how people rationalize immoral and wrong things.
“Plus my mother chose to have me, so here I am.”
So would you say that your value is completely determined by your mother’s choice? In other words, whether or not you have value was completely dependent on the choice of your mother? There is nothing intrinsically valuable about you- you simply have value because your mother placed value in you, kind of like how I currently value my office chair, but there is nothing about it in-and-of-itself that warrants some kind of objective value apart from my desires. Is that a correct understanding?
C’mon Abe. This blog is dedicated to saving humans from murder. Any correlation that adds to these murders needs to be looked at.
Stating that gay men are gay because they fear or abhor women has nothing to do with any “correlation” between gay people and pro-choicers. I have yet to see any type of far-reaching data around here that there is any such correlation. It’s all, “Oh look, here’s so-and-so the gay pro-choicer.”
I know it may be hard to fathom, but the world doesn’t revolve around your sexual encounters.
Being gay is all about sex to you, isn’t it? Not love or attraction or affection or romance. Just sex. That’s half the communication problem right there.
“Ah, your question was specifically in regard to abortion xalisae.”
Yeah…on a pro-life blog…FANCY THAT. Duuuuuuh.
“I’m not surprised you became overwhelmed with frustration and intellectually overwrought.”
“Intellectually overwrought”? That’s laughable coming from the person who refuses to acknowledge a simple dictionary entry (and actively disagrees with it, no less) and feigns perplexity with the most elementary of concepts, purposefully obfuscating the issue with nonsensical musings and undue navel-gazing.
So, your question is actually “And what do we usually call “terminating a life” through abortion? Is there a single word to describe this action?” isn’t it?
And then you provide us with a definition:
kill
Noun
1 the act of terminating a life [syn: killing, putting to death]
from the Merriam-Webster….
So, NO, it is not. And its not an ‘aversion’, I simply don’t see it as ‘killing’.”
So…waitaminute….Let me get this straight…You just disagreed with the dictionary? Seriously?
So, if I said, “If someone/something is alive, and you perform an action-any action at all-that kills that organism, you are killing. You have killed.” you would dispute the validity of that claim? You would say that I was being non-factual?
How do you moral relativists function without set definitions of anything? Do you have a degree in anything? If so, what classes did you take? I’d like to know what I can major in that I can submit a paper claiming absolutely anything and get an “A” no matter what my answer is.
It’s been interesting reading your dialogue, Xal and Cran. Moral relativism is alive and well. What’s good for you is good for you, and what’s good for me is good for me. Cran, this way of thinking is frightening. Obviously there are different circumstances in which killing is justified, i.e. self-defense, times of war, etc. I heard a preacher once say, “Why doesn’t the Pro-Choice movement ever finish their statment? Pro-Choice to what??? Finish the sentence Pro-Choice Crowd!
Being gay is all about sex to you, isn’t it?
Marauder, Abe brought up his sexuality, not me. He said, “You may lose a dedicated reader if you continue to insult me and my sexuality.”
I responded to HIS comment about his sexuality. Definitions for Sexuality:
1. The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex.
2. Concern with or interest in sexual activity.
3. Sexual character or potency.
If there is a correlation to specific sexual behaviors and views regarding abortion, I am willing to listen. Aren’t you?
Hello xalisae. A valiant attempt to denigrate what I said, but inadequate. I keep reading that this site, whilst being premised on anti-choice, has much discussion of politics and other matters. Gee, there are even articles on DWTS and little clips about music and stuff. So as I said, when you stumbled into an existing conversation with your question without context or reference, why am I to assume that you only intended to be referring to abortions.
So, again, your question, modified to reflect it’s actual intent – “And what do we usually call “terminating a life” through abortion? Is there a single word to describe this action?”
And the factual answer, as I said, is NO. I do not dispute that one of the dictionary references for ‘kill’ is ‘the act of terminating a life’. Plus you did not supply the dictionary information in its entirety.
That does not preclude the fact that the terms most often used are ‘abortion’ or ‘termination’. These are what most people ‘usually call’ terminating a life through abortion.
If you have a salad do you ever say you ‘killed’ a lettuce? What about when you peel and slice and apple, did you ‘kill’ it? You have terminated a life, therfore you have killed it.
What about vegetarians, they accuse carnivores of being ‘killers’, but do most meat-eaters see themselves this way?
So the fact that you are anti-choice means that you will subjectively state that people who have or perform abortions ‘kill babies’. Yet the reality is that anyone else says ‘abortion’ or ‘termination’.
Yes Doe, moral relativism is alive and well. While the vast majority of us hold very similar views about what is ‘moral’ and what is ‘immoral’, there is not a definitive set.
Thus there are those who think sex outside of marriage is immoral. Some believe that the use of contraceptives is immoral. And of course there are those who hold abortion as being immoral.
Take a look around society. See how many people have sex without marriage? See how many use contraception? This very site tells us repeatedly of the huge numbers of people who have abortions each year. So whose morals are they?
“If you have a salad do you ever say you ‘killed’ a lettuce? What about when you peel and slice and apple, did you ‘kill’ it? You have terminated a life, therfore you have killed it. What about vegetarians, they accuse carnivores of being ‘killers’, but do most meat-eaters see themselves this way?”
Would I say that? As a manner of speaking, no, I wouldn’t. Would it be factually accurate to say that? Absolutely, and if anyone wanted to, they could. At least I wouldn’t feel any sort of moral obligation to dispute the fact, either.
It would appear that you live your life based upon the moral imperative of “most people”. I suppose we should be glad that you don’t live in a country with an abnormally high incidence of rape, or else you would engage in that behavior or at the very least see it as morally permissible, since it’s engaged in by “most people”.
You know what xalisae? I think there may actually be a possibility that we are within cooee of being somewhere in the vicinity of being reasonably close to being on the same page here, a little bit.
“As a manner of speaking, no, I wouldn’t”
“Would it be factually accurate to say that? Absolutely…”
and that’s my point. Factually it is ‘killing’ but the answer to the question you posed is ‘as a manner of speaking, no…’.
I didn’t dispute any fact, I answered your question honestly and accurately.
Your second paragraph is enlightening. There are no countries where rape is engaged in by ‘most people’. And that would be because it is a moral of very high common belief. Nor are there any countries where murder is engaged by ‘most people’, because it is a commonly held moral. But when we get to sex outside of marriage and contraceptive use, it’s a different story. So it is demonstrated that most people do hold the same moral imperatives as ‘most people’.
So…if the percentage in South Africa goes up just a little bit (More than 25 per cent of South African men questioned in a survey published by the Medical Research Council (MRC) in June 2009 admitted to raping someone…) you’d be cool with rape then, if you lived in South Africa. M’kay.
And let me just add that your personal philosophy is absolutely absurd. Extended to a conclusion, it would seem that in order to make, for instance, bank robbery an acceptable moral practice, one would need only to launch some sort of add campaign touting its benefits and creating a PR campaign which successfully changed the collective’s opinion of said practice to the point it became acceptable and more people engaged in it.
I think you’re a long way short of finding any country where more than a minority believe rape to be ok xalisae. Got any data showing us what percentage of South Africans believe it is morally ‘right’ to commit rape? I’d say at least 50% would say no, wouldn’t you? And do you seriously believe that any campaign to ‘promote’ bank robbery would realise a majority level of approval or even acceptance? How many people got married a few thousand years ago? Stop trying to argue in black and white, that’s not the world we live in. You’re grasping at straws.
Mr. Mackey.
Stop trying to argue in black and white, that’s not the world we live in.
Do you believe there is right and wrong, according to whatever society dictates at the time?
Do you believe that there is any time when rape would be morally permissible, or is it never permissible?
How about first-degree murder? Never permissible, or permissible in certain circumstances?
Not everything is black and white. But an awful lot of things are.
X, cranium tends to live his life according to whatever popular opinion is at the time. Or at least what HE deems “most people” believe.
However, somehow I think if one day morality shifted and “most people” believed the things he doesn’t believe now, he’d still believe what he wants to believe.
Aha, I think you’ve cracked it Kel! Do you recall how often I have said that there is an intrinsic set of ‘morals’ common to almost everyone and that these are predicated on survival instincts as per the lower echelons of Maslow’s theory? But as we’ve attained higher levels on that hierarchy (self realisation) we have what basically amounts to a secondary set. These can be societal but some are purely personal.
So we don’t murder. We don’t rape. But we do have non-marital sex and we do have abortions.
I don’t simply live my life according to popular opinion. I am an element of that popular opinion. Part of its formation. That does not mean I like every aspect of it of course.
So, Cran, it seems to me (by your thought process) that the Hindu practice of Sati isn’t morally evil. If not, why then was it outlawed?
Because India wants to be a ‘player’ on the world stage and so attempts to moderate elements of its traditions which ‘western’ culture may find abhorrent. Sati still isn’t considered immoral by vast numbers of hindus. But you and I probably consider that it is. Although if a widow wants to willingly undertake it, is it intrinsically immoral? Or is it proof that as societies change, grow and integrate across the world, morals change relativistically? Morals appear to change as cultures move from isolation to integration.
“Oh! what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive”. Macabre! That is the only adjective I can think for this poor lost soul’s behavior. He has hardly an ounce of conscience. He needs our prayers badly, so that he gets one.
Happy and blessed Thanksgiving everyone!!
If there is a correlation to specific sexual behaviors and views regarding abortion, I am willing to listen. Aren’t you? – Praxedes
I too am becoming more interested in this topic. I’d like to see some wide-reaching, legitimate data on this, not just, “Look, here’s so-and-so the gay and vehement pro-choicer. This confirms what we knew about gay people all along.” – me
Stop trying to argue in black and white, that’s not the world we live in.
Wow. If I had a dollar for every time a debate I was having with a pro-choicer broke down to this one statement, I wouldn’t have to be at work right now. It’s pretty much just an admission that nothing I say matters, because this individual’s world revolves around him/her, and whatever they feel makes their life more comfortable at the time, and to hell with everyone else (even their own children). There’s really no arguing with someone willing to seek their own pleasure/comfort even at the cost of the lives of others-their young included. They’ve already done all the rationalizing required to make any action they choose acceptable (to them). I’m done here.
I like Gerald’s comment just about “ripe for a conversion.” but I also see a bible verse that explains it all Mat 13:13 “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.” Their mouths confess it is a baby and the logic of NOT killing them but their brains never get it!
Well xalisae, just because you don’t like that statement or it doesn’t suit you does not render it invalid. If you cannot accept that the world is not black and white then I really feel you have a tenuous grip on reality.
Even the simplest, most basic of societal tenets are not just black and white. Otherwise everything would be the same forever, nothing would change. And we certainly do have change.
The same remarks could be made about your good self in regards to your arguments for things being the way you want them and people behaving according to your belief system.