MTV “partnered” with pro-abortion groups for upcoming abortion reality special
According to Entertainment Weekly, MTV’s December 28 abortion reality show “will tackle all sides of the issue.”
This apparently means the pro-life perspective will simply get tackled.
The new website, 16 and Loved, sponsored by the pro-abortion group Exhale, states MTV collaborated with it for the program:
16 & Loved is a campaign to give our public support to the 3 young women who told their abortion story on the MTV special – “No Easy Decision” – created for the popular series “16 & Pregnant.”…
16 & Loved is brought to you by Exhale, a nonprofit organization which provides the 1st and only national, multilingual after-abortion talkline. We partnered with MTV on the special….
What’s more, the “No Easy Decision” website links only to pro-abortion groups (including The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy and, of course, Planned Parenthood) and false and dangerous contraceptive propaganda….
Actually, according to Guttmacher, the pregnancy failure rate of condoms is 17.4%, never mind the failure rate for STDs, some of those deadly.
What’s more, pro-abort blog Jezebel reports:
They’ve also gotten feminist bloggers like Jessica Valenti, Lynn Harris, and Steph Herold (disclosure: all friends of the site and this writer) to live-blog or tweet the show. There will also be a Women’s Media Center watch-in.
16 and Loved’s Facebook page inadvertently shows how pro-lifers can attempt to balance the spin:
Follow the conversation live on Twitter with the hashtags #16andloved, #WMCwatchin, and #provoice.
Pro-life tweeters can use those same hashtags as well.
Pro-lifers should also contact MTV to express disapproval that pro-life groups were not also contacted to “partner” on this show, if MTV were truly interested in balance. While MTV makes it difficult to email complaints (perhaps someone will have better luck finding an email address), it does host a community forum at which pro-lifers can certainly express themselves.
And while the pro-abortion side focuses on showing approval and love to a teen who has aborted, the pro-life message is to love both the teen and her baby. It does not have to be either-or.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Claire Culwell’s story (a twin who survived the abortion her 13 y o mom was taken for) will also be on TV the same night: Claire will be featured on ABC Family at 9:30Eastern Time/8:30 Central Time on December 28th.
16 and loved. Thats thought-provoking in and of itself. When were these teens first “loved”? When they themselves were in the womb? After their birth? When they hit 10? At 16? And did their worth only come from being “loved”? Loved by who? Their moms? Their boyfriends who “loved” them enough to fornicate with them without the protection of marriage?
Messed up. I am contacting MTV right now. I will see if I can find an email.
I sent them an email this way.
http://www.mtvpress.com/contacts/
Not sure if they’ll get it but it let me send it so we’ll see. They certainly don’t make it easy to contact them!
MTV execs are living in another decade: their target age demographic is pro-life!
We already know the PC crowd thinks statutory rape is a-ok. They’ve said as much here themselves. Now we have a show dedicated to being “16 And Loved”. Kinda figured it’d come along soon. They’ve been showing 24-hour commercials for sex and sexualized the youth so that being “16 And Loved” isn’t just acceptable, but expected within that peer group. Of course abortion was soon to follow. I’m just sorry that these kids are going to have to find out that “17 And The Mother Of A Dead Baby” is harder than this so-called hard decision.
xalisae-
Are you under the impression that the “Loved” part of 16 and Loved is an inappropriate relationship? That’s how your comment comes across. Loved isn’t about sex, it’s about telling these young ladies that there are people in the world who care about them and love them for who they are.
Are you under the impression that the “Loved” part of 16 and Loved is an inappropriate relationship? That’s how your comment comes across.
Good, because that’s how I meant it. 16 year olds shouldn’t be having sex. So many people are failing these children, and killing their kids then telling them how loved they are is like trying to put a dime-sized band-aid on a mutilated limb.
This is Melissa Barreto’s email address, (it doesn’t list her title) but she is the only contact for “16 and pregnant”
melissa.barreto@mtvstaff.com
Sydney: Speaking of sex before marriage, here’s an interesting study that found that people who waited had stronger marriages:
http://www.themedguru.com/20101223/newsfeature/avoid-sex-marriage-strong-relationship-study-86143083.html
If they are going to do a show about abortion on teens, they might have to check back a few yerars later to see how the poor girls are dealing with their post abortion syndrome.
sorry about the typo
Do they plan to show us an actual abortion on the new show? If not, why not? How about a 3rd trimester removal of “fetal tissue”????? No way. They can’t and they wont. And how do the mom and dad continue the show once the baby is dead? Do they follow the teens until they break up a week later following the abortion??? Face it. Dead baby=no show!
@Georgia Ana Larson how ironic is it that ABC Family will feature the story of the twin that survived abortion when that channel is owned by Disney who funds Planned Parenthood….OH the tangled webs….
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I really miss when MTV was MUSIC Television…..I didn’t watch it much (I watched TRL when they aired NSYNC Music videos, but that’s been at least 10 years ago) but I also watched a fun game show (sometimes) called Remote Control that aired in the 1980s. Now its just reality trash television…..RTTV
I’m so glad that they’re doing this show! These women are so brave to speak out about their experiences. I just hope that they aren’t harassed too hard by all the right wing nut-jobs. As someone who had an abortion four years ago (and is still with the same boyfriend btw) I can honestly say that it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. I was 21 at the time and in a healthy monogamous relationship. It was the result of a birth control slip-up and I’ve never once regretted it. I hope this show is an example of how wrong all the anti-choice propaganda really is. Women are more than able to terminate a pregnancy and continue to live a happy, productive life.
Wow Shannon. You do know that “terminating a pregnancy” is such a cliche way to inoculate yourself from the truth of what you did. Whats a pregnancy? Its an event not an object. The BABY is growing in the mother’s womb therefore she is pregnant or going through pregnancy. When you “terminate” a pregnancy you terminated your child’ life. Why use such silly phrases. If you celebrate what you did why not just come right out and own it? “Yeah, I decided my life was too young and I was too important so I chose to kill my baby so that I didn’t have to be bothered after a birth control slip-up.” Thats more along the lines of truth isn’t it?
I also had a birth control slip-up 4 years ago. Feb 2006 I found out my pill failed. October 2006 my son made his triumphant way out of my womb and into my arms. I’ve never regretted my decision. And my little son was soooo excited when Santa came yesterday. He is up in bed right now clutching his new helicopters and Scooby-Doo toys. Soooo glad I chose life.
Funny how you don’t regret your decision yet you chose to come to a pro-life website at Christmas time. Is the ghost of your dead child haunting you this time of year? Christmas is especially a time for kids you know. “Tiny tots with their eyes all aglow, will find it hard to sleep tonight…” Are you secretly missing your little child as watch children rushing around to see Santa?
Merry Christmas, Shannon and welcome!!
I sure hope that they don’t spew proabort propaganda about how safe abortion is and how there are no side effects at all and that by “terminating your pregnancy” you are only disposing of “a bunch of cells.”
Can’t wait to hear all of the stories of women like me who regret their abortions!!
That would make a fairly balanced show.
I am wondering if you are missing a certain special someone that would be what(?)almost 4 years old this Christmas?
Did you come here so we could all cheer you and your boyfriend on about the decision you made to end the life of your child?
GO YOU!!
Gee, how condescending, Shannon, tell that to all the women at the politically neutral Pass Support Boards and Silent No More, who’s experiences and feelings differ from yours. There are many different experiences and outcomes and no one correct way to feel after an abortion. These other women’s voices, experiences, and feelings matter too.
Unfortunately Shannon will not be brave enough to respond to the comments as she was not brave enough to accept the life she and her “boyfriend” created. And her label of “right wing nut jobs” just goes to show she has totally bought into the lies she was told to justify her actions. The reality of it is, she nor her boyfriend have realized the lasting effects of their choice. They will come up eventually, probably when she has complications with her next “slip-up” or is diagnosed with breast cancer, or suffers from the severe depression that she is currently suppressing. But it will come to light one day, and oh what a sad day that will be! My mother had 3 late term abortions before she chose life and I was born. The Lord had his hands on my life from the very beginning. She is 47 yrs old, has recently lost her home, hasn’t been able to function in society and hold a job for years, has had 3 lumps in her breast removed, had to have a historectomy after years of complications, suffers from sever depression and chemical imbalances and a terrible drug addiction. She is drowning in misery and its awful to watch! We don’t speak and she has nothing to do with my children. She has walked in and out of my life, my entire life. So Shannon, I will continue to pray for u and all the other young women who choose murder rather than self-control over their bodies! May God bless u and may his Holy Spirit convict u of ur sin so that u can be forgiven and saved from the eternal damnation that u facing for eternity. God still loves u and He will forgive u, He is crying right now over ur soul, calling u to come to Him, He will give u peace! But only after u confess ur murder….
Christa,
I am grateful to God for your life! And to your mother. I am sorry that she is where she is. Sad. Abortion pain comes out sideways if stuffed down. Depression, drinking, drug abuse and all of the rest makes total sense when on the outside looking in on someone’s pain.
Maybe Shannon and her boyfriend will get married and they will decide the “timing” is just right and the money is there and their careers are in place and it is time for a baby!! Maybe she will know and understand like I did that a baby is a baby is a baby. The one murdered in an abortion is the same as one lost to miscarriage or the one eagerly waited for and stared at on the ultrasound!!! We are all former embryos.
I will be praying with you.
1 John 3:1-2 See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him.
Carla, thank u! I’m very thankful as well and count my blessings everyday! I praise the Lord for giving me life so abundant and free, not measured with the worlds standards but measured with love! I feel obligated to be the voice for my brothers and sisters who didn’t survive her “choice”. I just wish everyone would see the true value of life and realize that at this point in the history of this nation, the most dangerous place to live is in the womb! U can label me whatever u’d like, but a Christian will be radical, right wingd,(Ecclesiastes 10:22 A wise man’s heart is at his right hand; but a fool’s heart at his left. 3 Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool) and totally against the “main stream” which is NOT the stream of living water! May God bless u all and please at all cost continue to spread the truth of Abortions!
Shannon, I am so sorry for your loss. How awful to feel that the best choice you had was to end your baby’s life! I have two living children, ages 2 1/2 and 1, and they are such a joy. Right now my little girl is reading her baby brother a book and my little boy is playing with a plastic lawn mower. I have also had pregnancies which terminated without a live birth, though not by my choice. I still miss the children I have lost to miscarriage, and I wonder if there were something different I could have done to save my other children… if I had just eaten more healthfully, or been on a drug to control some of the effects of my PCOS… so I understand what it is to miss someone in my family who just isn’t here. I was so scared when I was pregnant with my daughter that something would happen to her. I don’t think I ever really thought that she would end up perfectly healthy, and I would bring her home. But I am so grateful to God for these two children–their smiles light up my heart and my life. It is so amazing to me that my husband and I helped to create these marvelous little people, with their own faces and talents and personalities and likes and dislikes… and sometimes I wonder who is missing. Would Joseph have looked like his daddy? Would Ruby have the same heart for prayer my daughter already does? What would our tree look like with presents for 12 children under it? I love my children so much, but I also miss their siblings who are lost. I hope you can find comfort this Christmas, Shannon. Jesus came to Earth much as your son or daughter did–as the child of a young, unmarried mother. But unlike your child or any of mine, Jesus was God from the moment He began to exist. And He came to give comfort to those who are hurting, and to save us from all the wrong decisions we’ve made, decisions which hurt God and those we love or even those we do not know. He felt the same weight of our sins that we do, because God put that weight on Him as He hung on the cross, a victim of sin. But the victim became the victor, and He triumphed over both sin and death. I don’t need to wonder where my children are–they are in heaven with God! And so is your son or daughter. And while it hurts to be separate now, not to know them–one day their father, their sister, their brother and I will be with them in heaven. We will spend eternity together, and have all of time to get to know each other as we worship God.
I hope you will join us–all you need to do is ask forgiveness for the wrong things you have done and give your life to Him. He will show you how you should go.
Wow. Such hatred. I don’t pretend to speak for all women, but can only share my personal experience. I was hoping that perhaps it was possible for you all to acknowledge that all women have different experiences with abortion, and very different feelings after. Apparently not.
I came on here because I wanted to test the waters, to see what these brave young women would be up against. For the record, I did acknowledge my pregnancy as a potential for human life (a “baby” if you will). I still had no problem terminating the pregnancy. (Or aborting it, or killing it, or whatever you want to call it). I have no problem being around children, and generally have a lot of fun playing with my nephew. However, I know that I do not, in any sense, wish to be a parent. Not now, and probably not ever. It simply doesn’t appeal to me. Not parenting, and certainly not the physical pregnancy.
It never ceases to amaze me, how cold, cruel and condescending anti-choicers are to women who are doing nothing more than sharing their stories. I have no interest in changing your minds, but couldn’t we at least learn to honor the discussion? To allow women to feel safe and comfortable expressing their range of emotions and experiences? Abortion isn’t the right decision for everyone, but it certainly was for me.
If you’re so concerned with the “life of the baby” why don’t you spend your time and energy attacking the health system the gives women inadequate information about their bodies and their birth control or the government for not funding access to such birth control? You’re all so backwards. What you’re doing is so pointless. You aren’t going to change anyone’s mind. Only a pregnant woman knows how she feels about ending that particular pregnancy, and no amount of screaming or scare tactics will stop her from doing what she believes is right.
I have no reason to continue this discussion, you can all go marinate in your own hate, reinforce each others ignorance. That’s fine by me. But I’m curious, would you be able to say any of this to my face? Or to the face’s of the women who will be on MTV? THEY are strong enough to speak up on national television. To put themselves out there to be crucified by the right and hated by the likes of you. Would you be so brave? I doubt it.
Shannon, we are ANTI-MURDER! That’s what abortion is…MURDER! and of course every person here would “say it to ur face”!
and it’s not that these CHILDREN on MTV are BRAVE! they are being exploited! They are being thrown into the fire along with millions of other who have the same ignorant beliefs( and i use the term beliefs loosely!) as u! There was no hatred in my comment only my genuine desire for u to realize that u took the life of another human. How would u feel if someone murdered ur nephew? if they held him down, jabbed a hole in the back of his head, sucked his brains out and proceeded to dismember him, then took him and put him in a bag and threw him in the trash can. or better yet ground him up and made “medicine” out of him????!!!!
or what if they gave him a shot of saline and chemically burned him to death. i dare you, for the sake of “honoring the discussion” to go to http://www.herestheblood.com, watch the video and tell me u still think that was the “best decision you’ve ever made”….but i know u wont…
No hatred here Shannon but you can throw that out and run away instead of actually engaging in any kind of conversation. And yes I would say to your face that BOTH of our children died in our abortions.
I have changed the minds of 3 women by telling my abortion story.
My abortion was the most horrifying experience of my life. Now you say,”Well mine wasn’t!” How does that in any way refute my story? I was lied to at the clinic and coerced into an abortion I didn’t want.
Please do the right thing. Make the right choice. Get your tubes tied.
Oh and you are hardly the first person to come here type that abortion was the best thing you ever did and run away.
WHY did you come here if not to start something??
I just came to this site to see what other people felt about 16 and Loved. Thank you Shannon for sharing your story here, despite the ugliness thrown at you. Still, just looking, reading…
I’m not “running away”, but I have a very busy life and can’t be bothered to constantly monitor a chat. I’m very sorry that your experience was so traumatic. It clearly effected you deeply and I would advise that you seek out counseling or some sort of professional support. I think we can all agree that nobody should ever be coerced into this sort of decision, but I can assure that not all abortion providers are that way. Mine went to great lengths to provide me with information about all my options and to get me in touch with local adoption agencies if need be. They did a good job of making sure that I was confident in my decision and knew what to expect. I had a very peaceful and positive experience.
I think that one of the reasons that some abortions are so traumatic is because there isn’t a lot of oversight, especially in states where their are so many restrictions and legal loopholes to jump through. If this were a procedure that were treated by the medical community as legitimate, it could be better regulated and you may have been spared your negative experience.
Also, I happen to know for a fact that one of the women on the MTV show was 20 years old at the time of her abortion. They are hardly exploited children.
I’m not sure about the whole “tubes tied” thing…that a pretty invasive and serious procedure. I would much more be in favor of my partner having a vasectomy. However, that argument is irrelevant because we are way to young for any doctor to do it…and most of the time they want you to have children, be married and fall into some other ridiculous social category.
Brenda,
Are you talking about the ugliness of abortion? Yeah I would agree that it is.
Shannon,
LOL
Thank you for the advice and assurance. My abortion was 20 years ago. Have gone through the denial, the anger, the drinking, partying, nightmares, suicidal thoughts and a suicide attempt and found my way to healing thank you very much.
Blah blah blah to all of the rest of how some abortion providers are good and that is nice and they are supportive and that is good and it is peaceful…………they kill children and hurt women for profit.
What you are really saying is that it’s ok that your child died in your abortion cause you think it’s ok.
And somehow it’s not ok for my child to have died in my abortion because I don’t think it’s ok.
See any disconnect there at all?
The reason abortions are so traumatic is because a child is forcefully ripped from a mother’s womb while still alive.
I could have been “spared my negative experience” had I reached out for the help and support I desperately wanted and needed to continue my pregnancy. Instead of thinking that an abortion clinic actually “cared” about me in any way, shape or form. They cared about their payment.
They took the life of my child that day after lying to me about fetal development and omitting ANY of the risks of abortion.
Spare me your thoughts on MY abortion experience please. It is done. I paid for someone to kill my child and I can’t go back and do anything to change it.
And so you would end the life of your second child as well if you got pregnant again?
Oh and you already are a mother, Shannon.
Carla, i think instead of government issued birth control and government funded condoms and government funded sex education and government funded reproductive rights and government funded abortions i think government funded tubals or vasectomies (since we wouldn’t wound to perform such intrusive procedures on women, yeah right!!) is an excellent idea!!
Also, Christa…
Ironically enough my boyfriend and I watched that video right after my procedure. He was asking me all sorts of questions and I said he should just look online. We found that nonsense. First of all, I was very early along and my fetus was not that well developed or that large (my procedure took about 3 minutes) and well, that’s not at all what happened to me. Second, we both seriously question the authenticity of that video. It looks very, fake…especially considering that fact that I’ve seen a still born 3rd (or it may have been late 2nd) trimester baby. It wasn’t so transparent and jelly-like, you could see the bones and organs and whatnot. Some of the other images used in that video may very well be “real”, and perhaps (although unlikely) they are from abortions (there are a lot of still born births)…but you can tell from the quality of the footage that it’s very old. Last, honestly? It doesn’t do much to me. I would’ve terminated that pregnancy even if I had had to do it myself.
In regards to my nephew…it’s a very different situation. He’s no longer physically dependent on my sister. So, if someone killed him it would be pretty sad. But you know, he’s an independent, autonomous person. Had my sister wanted to terminate at any point in her pregnancy, I would have supported her.
and for the record, a tubal is done now through a tiny hole made in the belly button. far less intrusive than an abortion with far fewer complications! JUST SAYING!!
ugh! ur sick!! please leave!
and the video is real!
http://www.abortionno.org/About_Us/lawsuits/authenticity.html
I’m sorry that it’s so upsetting for you to hear my personal story. And, while I’m surprised that the video is real, it still doesn’t bother me. Honestly. I worked in a vet clinic for some time in high school and I’m really quite comfortable with blood and whatnot. And IF those are true abortions, then I’m glad that those women had the ability to make that decision, and I wish them all the support in the world.
I would say that getting cut open is pretty invasive (even it it’s a “small” hole). But whatever, once I’m done with graduate school and more certain about my future plans, I will certainly look into it. I still think we would be more likely to go the vasectomy route.
And you’re right, my decision to discontinue my unwanted pregnancy was a mothering decision, and should be respected as such. Also, I completely agree…all reproductive services should be provided free of charge.
Here ya go Shannon and Brenda,
This is my abortion story.
http://outcrywisconsin.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-story-at-faith-community-church.html
So far your personal story of abortion is that it’s peaceful and perfect and the best thing you’ve ever done. Hmmmmmmm.
Shannon,
If these women are now heartbroken and overcome with regret and struggling with depression and suffering emotional anguish over the killing of their own child do you still support them?
And just HOW does the abortion clinic help them now?
I am beginning to doubt your story btw.
That’s very sad. I’m sorry that you’ve had such a traumatic and difficult life. I wish that you had had more support and could have made the decision that was right for you (clearly it was not to have an abortion). You absolutely should not have been forced into something that you were uncomfortable and unsure of. I’m sending positive thoughts and support and wish you healing.
I hope that you would be able to understand that I WAS sure of what I was doing. My experience was very, very different from yours. I’ve always had a supportive a loving family who instilled in me the confidence and self esteem to know myself, and to make reflective and confident decisions for myself.
Making a decision regarding our reproductive selves is never EASY, but sometimes women do make the correct decision for themselves. I am very much at peace with my choice, and am glad that I had the ability to make it. I hope you find healing in your faith. And compassion and empathy for women who have had experiences that are different from yours.
Absolutely I support them! I know that had my sister chosen to terminate her child, she would have had a much more difficult time than I had and would probably have regretted it. Similarly, she respects my decision and knows that I made the choice that was right for me. Abortion is not right for everyone, but it is right for some.
All clinics are different, and based on their budget etc. they may not have resources available (the unfortunately result of anti-choice legislation). The particular clinic I went to did offer post-abortion counseling through an external psychologist. They also reference women to Exhale hotlines.
You should watch the MTV show.
I think that one of the reasons that some abortions are so traumatic is because there isn’t a lot of oversight,
I think that another one of the reasons that some abortions are so traumatic is because parents are paying butchers to kill their own children
I’m sorry that it’s so upsetting for you to hear my personal story
And I’m sorry that it doesn’t upset you to pay to have a human being killed. More sorry than those of you without a conscience can ever know.
Confident decisions? If you were so confident about your decision to kill your baby, you wouldn’t have come here defending your wonderful decision.
I would also tell you to your face that your child died during your abortion. Legal doesn’t always make moral.
You didn’t come here by mistake ya know.
Abortion is NEVER right for the innocent, growing fully human child who is killed.
What you are failing to grasp is our natural response as prolifers Shannon to your child being killed in the abortion you and your boyfriend paid for and are FINE with.
That is what you came to this prolife blog to say and now you have said it.
You better get back to work.
Knowing your nephew, and the person he is now, and how much you supposedly love him, you would be a-ok with your sister having decided to kill him. Alright. We’re done here. I think that says everything that needs to be said.
Regarding Carla’s comment, dated: Carla, December 27th, 2010 at 2:40 PM
” … Blah blah blah to all of the rest of how some abortion providers are good and that is nice and they are supportive and that is good and it is peaceful…………<b>they kill children and hurt women for profit.</b> … ”
Well said, Carla!
The bottom line is, people are behaving like Barack Hussein Obama. it is all about them. it is all about how they feel. It is all about if they look good, feel good, are being treated well, are favored by those around them, etc. It is not about the fact that induced, elective abortion is the intentional slaughter, mangling, butchering, burning, etc., of new, tiny, living, unarmed, innocent human beings, and denying them their guaranteed right (In the USA) to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
By the logic of some who defend abortion as being peaceful, and that the abortuary personnel were gentle, etc., then if you are gentle you can justify slaughtering, raping, abusing, robbing, and so forth.
It is okay to agress against someone else, so long as you are doing so gently. Ha, ha, ha!
That is about as funny as a screen door in a submarine, or a flood in a Fizzies factory, or a house on fire.
For the participants in the grevious, violent, cruel, rights denying act of induced, elective abortions and their associated processes - chemical, pharmaceutical, ripping, cutting, suctioning, etc., it is all fun and games wonderful, sweetness, and light. For the baby it is pure, unadulterated aggression and slaughter. For women who are coereced into abortion, it is horrific. For women who are beaten, harassed, and murdered for refusing to abort, and there are many, it is murder.
For those who think, “If you personally oppose abortion, don’t have one,” and that you have no right to tell someone else what they can or cannot do, then if you personally oppose rape, torture, kidnapping, murder, robbery, home invasion, etc,. then don’t have one, but you have no right to tell anyone else that they cannot do so!
Disgusting!
Shannon, what hate? You came here and called us names. Who is showing hate? Clearly not us.
Secondly, I am so very glad you are comfortable with blood and guts. How does that change the fact that an irreplaceable human child was killed during your abortion? If you were uncomfortable with blood and guts would it be WRONG to abort but because you are okie dokie with blood and guts abortion is morally okay? Your reasoning skills are flabbergasting. Truly.
I haven’t called any of you, specifically, names. I don’t hate any of you.
Sydney: That “logic” wasn’t in regards to my own decision to have an abortion, it was in response to anti-choice propaganda videos like the one cited earlier in the post- namely, that they don’t bother me because I’m not the queasy sort and respect the individual decisions of women.
“16 and Loved”? Although I am thoroughly pro-life, I believe that the way that other people live their lives should be their own opinion. But, if the show 16 and Loved refers to post-abortion mothers, does that mean that if you’re pregnant, you’re not loved? That’s just messed up.
I have some other comments regarding the choice of parenting, abortion, and adoption:
~I can totally understand mothers not wanting to be pregnant. Many people in the world don’t want to be pregnant. Although I have never been pregnant, I know that it is a tiring, painful procedure. Do you know how you can fix that? You can choose not to have sex in the first place, or you can get your tubes tied, or have your partner get a vasectomy.
~If your reason to have an abortion is because you aren’t ready to be a parent, or you don’t have the money or time to take care of a child, that is OKAY. You don’t need to choose to keep your child, adoption is a very valid option. Although it may be hard for a mother to give up her child to a different family, you can rest assured that you won’t have your hands stained with the blood of murder. There are many different kinds of adoptions that you can look into, including adoptions that let you come in and be a part of the childs life as he or she grows up.
~If you wouldn’t kill a person walking down your street, or your brother, sister, mother, cousin, or anyone like that, why would you kill your OWN CHILD?
**I just wanted to add something. I am very supportive of the women who have had abortions. They made a hard decision, whether they have lived to regret it or not. The bible tells us to love everyone, no matter what. I AM, however, extremely pro-life. I believe that abortion should be illegal, just as murder is. I won’t admit that a woman who has had an abortion made the right decision, but I will be there for you no matter what. I will pray for all mothers, whether their children survived the womb or not!
^If any of this is hard to understand, I would be happy to clarify. It all makes sense to me, but it might not to people who don’t feel the same way.
Sorry to post so much, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK3zs7EV6Tk
Its slightly off- topic and unrelated, but its so beautiful that I had to share it with all of you!
Sophia,
I hear what you are saying!!
Abortion decisions are oftentimes made in fear and desperation. There is panic and having an abortion may not be well thought out. A woman may feel as if she has no other choice! Also many abortions are forced and coerced. Which is not choice.
When shown the ultrasound 90% of women choose life. Knowledge of fetal development, a support network of caring friends and family makes the choice for life EASIER!
Abortion is NEVER the right decision.
Also, we all have a right to our own opinions that is true but I will not sit back and say nothing when 3,000+ babies are killed everyday and their mothers wounded.
Hi William,
I don’t care if an abortion clinic has the best elevator music, bright shiny posters of sunny beaches and palm trees, the walls painted a delicious coffee color, potted plants, the smell of lavender essential oil, the staff smiling and eager to chat all day, juice and jelly toast for you after your abortion and a Target gift card given as you leave.
Your child who was living when you walked in has died.
And NOTHING can change that.
Exhale is pro-abortion. What kind of counseling do you suppose a woman who regrets her abortion will get from a pro-abortion, pro-hey-it’s-no-big-deal type of psychologist? A pat on the hand and an “It’s ok, honey, you didn’t do anything wrong. This guilt will pass eventually. It’s just the lingering remains of the religious tripe you were brought up with.” Hmm?
They did a good job of making sure that I was confident in my decision and knew what to expect. I had a very peaceful and positive experience.
Well, that’s nice. For you, anyway. Your child did not have a peaceful or positive experience. Dismemberment usually isn’t.
If this were a procedure that were treated by the medical community as legitimate, it could be better regulated and you may have been spared your negative experience.
So, you think women regret their abortions because child killing isn’t regulated enough?
Women can be spared their negative abortion experiences by choosing life.
Also, I happen to know for a fact that one of the women on the MTV show was 20 years old at the time of her abortion. They are hardly exploited children.
So, you’re saying many of them are selfish, spoiled, and wholly self-focused young adults who are simply acting like children? They are grown up enough for sex, but not for caring for the offspring that results from sex? Perhaps if one isn’t ready to accept the consequences for sex, then one is not old enough/mature enough to be engaged in sexual intercourse. I dunno – just a thought.
I’m not sure about the whole “tubes tied” thing…that a pretty invasive and serious procedure.
I didn’t realize dismembering a child wasn’t at all invasive. Dilating the cervix, putting a powerful vacuum up inside the uterus and removing the growing offspring inside is apparently just not so serious, huh? You do realize that abortion takes a human life, correct? Not a “potential” human life, but a biological, new human life with wholly distinct DNA from both mother and father.
I’ve always had a supportive a loving family who instilled in me the confidence and self esteem to know myself, and to make reflective and confident decisions for myself.
Did they teach you to make decisions which would disregard other human lives in the process? You didn’t just make a decision for yourself. You made it for your child, who had no say in the matter. You terminated the life support of someone who depended on you for nourishment and who had committed no crime (unless you count mere existence a crime).
If I were you, Shannon, I’d worry less about Carla’s remorse at having killed her own child and worry more about your lack of it.
And yes, I’d say all of this face to face.
Way to go, Kel! Great points trough and through. You are totally right in saying that abortion should never be an option.
Carla- You are such an amazingly strong woman. I want you to know that I will be praying for you EVERY DAY, and I am sure that God and Aubrey are both smiling down on you right now, proud of your accomplishments, and happy that you are saving innocent lives. You have touched my life, and because of you, i will speak out against the horrors of abortion! Keep on being the amazing person that you are. Thank you!
I have one more comment: I would prefer it if I wasn’t called “anti-choice” or “anti-abort”. It’s “Pro-life”. I don’t want “Anti” in the title of my beliefs, because there should be nothing negative about saving lives.
16 & Loved as opposed to 16 & Pregnant? How about 16 & post-abortion? That is a better opposite to 16 & Pregnant isn’t it? Did 16 & Pregnant talk about the hard choice to remain pregnant? Will they follow these girls and find out how they feel about their choices years down the track?
I seriously believe that there would be an outcry against abortion if the procedure was shown in all it’s glory (gory) on TV. I doubt that will happen though, it’s far too truthful.
Sharron blood and gut on TV doesn’t bother me either. I can watch a tumour being removed, eye surgery, I’ve even seen open heart surgery in the flesh without flinching. I am bothered by the abortion videos though because what they show is not the saving of a life but the ending of one.
Thank you Sophia!! What a sweet comment! I covet your prayers and I will pray for you as well!
(((KEL)))
Kylie,
I wholeheartedly agree and would also LOVE to see high schools show a video of a real abortion!
I’ve always had a supportive a loving family who instilled in me the confidence and self esteem to know myself, and to make reflective and confident decisions for myself.
That’s just code for “I’ve been taught from a young age that I am the center of the universe. I have been instructed to be a self-centered individual callous and cruel to any and all who might stand in the way of what I want, even to the point of not batting an eye at their death, even if the one dying is my child.”
Megan’s the same way. So are MANY women who abort. They’re not scared. They’re not frightened. They’re not lied to or lead astray. They just don’t care. And there’s no hope for people like this.
Yet they are deceived. Deceived into thinking that abortion is the “best” thing they could have ever done. They believe the lie that abortion “helps” and “heals” and is simply another medical procedure.
IF they ever come to fully realize the gravity of what they have done in the killing of their own child and regret the day they ever walked into that clinic, I WILL STILL BE HERE FOR THEM.
They are never beyond hope or His grace and forgiveness.
That’s just code for “I’ve been taught from a young age that I am the center of the universe. I have been instructed to be a self-centered individual callous and cruel to any and all who might stand in the way of what I want, even to the point of not batting an eye at their death, even if the one dying is my child.
You’re right, X.
I heard the powers that be are considering narcissistic personality disorder to no longer be a disorder, due to the fact that narcissism is so widespread. How tragic are we as a society?
And there’s no hope for people like this.
There is hope in Christ for all. I’ve seen Him change the hardest of hearts, and I’ve been absolutely stunned by how He works.
As I wrote to MTV, any show that is only pro-choice is an episode-long advertisement for abortion. Shannon reveals a lot in her posts, such as that she never wants to be a mother. That is a common event in the psyche of a post-abortive woman. A coping mechanism is to deny all maternal instinct. “It’s alright to kill my child because I am not the mothering type” is a kind of self-protective mental loop. Killing children is no way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. In fact, this feminista idea that pregnancy is unwanted is the very heart of the problem, not the poor baby who didn’t do anything to deserve death. Shannon, you jumped right in with the ‘right wing nut’ comment, so don’t expect that with such a biased insult, everyone would just go all warm and gooey on you. Get real. You think you’re tough because you killed your kid and you have no remorse. Yep, lots of post-abortive moms feel that way…for a while. Your psyche is a ticking time bomb.
There is no common ground or honorable discussion about child murder.
Jon, get off your high horse. Explain to me from a non-religious stance how raping a woman is wrong if you don’t think she is created in the image of God and has a soul and has worth. How is rape wrong?
And btw, if you aren’t willing to give me $100,000 right now then you can shut up if I choose to kill my son today. Its none of your business if you aren’t willing to pay me to not kill my child.
Oh yes, let everybody live their own life as long as every body doesn’t include really tiny bodies that just started out in life.
I would like girls like Shannon to read Jon’s rant very carefully, how he wishes murder on the rest of us. Those are your comrades, Shannon. Aren’t they grand?
Jon,
Your posts have been deleted. In the future I advise you to type out your thoughts carefully minus the blasphemy and swearing.
Thank you.
Yet another post that confirms the true mental illness of the prodeath mindsets.
Maybe reading through wacko posts like Jon’s will cause a few fence riders to jump to the prolife side.
Deranged.
I say we all come together for a group hug. Thats just me, though.
Virtual group hug!!
Jon, you really are a dunce. I was being FACETIOUS. If thats a big word for you look it up in a dictionary.
I’m a woman. Of course I think rape is wrong. I also think killing unborn children is wrong but your little brain can’t seem to grasp that. You make absurd arguments about how aside from religious views abortion can’t be wrong and can anyone prove that to you. I could explain biology to you and how the unborn child is a genetically unique human being that is ALIVE from the moment of conception, but somehow I don’t think your circuitry is all that intact and I doubt you could grasp so heady a concept.
But thanks for wishing death on my child, Jon (thats me being facetious again Jon). Shannon… nice comrades you have. They won’t stop at just killing unborn children but are now wishing death upon my 4 year old son. Nice.
You’re a lost, sick, diseased soul Jon. You need God’s grace and mercy… like right now!
I had an unplanned pregnancy Jon. My son is alive because I don’t think I have the right to kill another human being just for being an inconvenience or because I don’t have enough money or whatever petty, stupid reason you could come up with.
My point was that you claimed pro-lifers have to donate 100,000 bucks to women or they have the moral right to abort their children. I was just thinking, if we are going to adopt your argument why stop there? How bout you give me 100,000 bucks or I’ll kill my BORN child! Why don’t I have the right to do that? Its my choice whether or not to be a mother, right?
But now I see you’re really just a cold-blooded murderer and you don’t have a problem with abortion because you threaten to kill born children too. I hope you are locked up in prison because you are seriously sick in the head. You are a danger to society.
I’m almost disappointed his post was removed. Readers, I found his most offensive idea was this: he wished that one of the babies we save would grow up to be a murderer and kill one us who saved him. Nice. He also challenged us to come up with a non-religious rationale for being pro-life. Despite the fact that the secular pro-life folks are already hard at work explaining that on their website (thanks for the support! You don’t have to believe in God to be pro-life) but in a nutshell:
Humans are mammals. We gestate only a few young at a time, usually one. The children are vulnerable and need care for the first phases of life. This is true of many primates and mammals. Now, other species of animals, such as frogs or turtles, lay a whole lot of eggs because a lot will be lost by death, eating, natural mishaps, and only a few of those zygotes will survive into adulthood to reproduce themselves. This is basic biological fact. Mammals have a natural inclination to care for their young, just as birds have a natural inclination to build nests and return to them with food after the eggs have hatched. Birds are not mammals like humans, but there are other animals as you can see besides mammals that care for their young.
Animals like us, mammals and some birds, etc., use this caring behavior to keep our species alive. If and when a mammal destroys it’s young, you can be sure that some kind of pathology is involved. If a species of mammal began to destroy only 1 or 2% of its young, maybe in the big picture, the species could still survive and flourish. However, when a species kills off 30% to 50% of its young, in the case of human beings in the world today who live in America, England, much of Europe, Eastern Europe, India, China, etc., that is a species catastrophe. When a species kills off such a high percentage of its young, the pathology is immense and has reached endemic proportions. The bubonic plague killed a lower percentage of the population than abortion currently does.
Today, we are entering population winter. For a while, people will be able to fool themselves that it’s not happening. But in a few short years, no one will be able to deny it. Now, lets talk briefly about a notion that the government should take care of everyone. Who’s going to pay taxes? If everyone has only one child, as Ted Turner the Hypocrite suggests, then each child will be responsible for both of his parents plus his grandparents. That’s one person supporting 6 aging adults. Can anyone see how inverting the population pyramid just might be a bad idea? Anyone?
you know what would fix this whole problem? technology. Its amazing how far science can take us. if we could find out a way to safely remove a baby from the mothers womb and care for him and nurture him instead of aborting, everyone would be happy. Instead of fighting over it, why dont we come together and figure this out?
It doesn’t take any technology for a young woman to say, “Hey, you know what? This is 2011. I can walk around pregnant if I want to and no one can say boo to me!” That would be liberating for both the mother and the baby. Right now, there is still a silent social stigma for a young woman to carry to term while making adoption arrangements or for a mother of three to make adoption arrangements for her 4th child. Why can’t that be more socially acceptable? It’s often no extra cost (many adoptive families take on the cost of prenatal care and/or birth) and no added danger to the child.
I wish when I were younger I had proudly shown off my pregnancy instead of shamefully hiding it by murdering my own child. It was I who behaved as if it were an earlier century. My child deserved better.
ninek: Its totally true. and thats what i would do if i was in that situation! But, for the people with lives that are SO SAD that they have to stoop down so low as to murder their own children, i think this is a healthy alternative. (not to hurt your feelings, or anyone else’s who has gone through that- pregnancy is a very stressful time, and people, many times, are scared and confused about it. im very sorry if that made you feel bad!) And I did bring up adoption before- its a great alternative that every expectant mother who can’t take care of her own child should explore.
God bless you, ninek, because you are a great person, and always will be. Thank you for speaking out against this heartless murder with me!
Another group hug! Thanks Sophia. I also hope that soon even ectopic pregnancies will be able to be moved to the womb. How heartbreaking it must be for a mom who’s trying to have a family and the pregnancy goes wrong like that.
(Ninek): If a species of mammal began to destroy only 1 or 2% of its young, maybe in the big picture, the species could still survive and flourish. However, when a species kills off 30% to 50% of its young, in the case of human beings in the world today who live in America, England, much of Europe, Eastern Europe, India, China, etc., that is a species catastrophe. When a species kills off such a high percentage of its young, the pathology is immense and has reached endemic proportions. The bubonic plague killed a lower percentage of the population than abortion currently does.
Today, we are entering population winter. For a while, people will be able to fool themselves that it’s not happening. But in a few short years, no one will be able to deny it.
Well, as far as “population winter” we’re not really even into autumn yet. In my lifetime (1959+) alone, the population has gone from 3 billion to well over 6 billion, and the US Census Bureau says 9 billion in 2044, thus in the next 34 years a huge further increase in population, with all the accompanying pressures.
Every hour, there are over 15,000 births, as well as over 6,000 deaths. I think it is population pressure itself that is one of the biggest hurdles the pro-life agenda faces.
Dear Friends,
I’ve read most of the comments and it seems like no one here really watched the show.
Most of you have made statements before even watching the show itself which shows how quick you all are to judge others.
What kind of people make judgements before listening to these young girls stories first?
Please don’t be blinded by your personal agendas and assume things without listening. Please enlighten yourselves with empathy and maybe this world will have less hate.
Thanks :)
Dear G,
Please enlighten yourself with empathy for all humans, regardless of their size, and this world will, not maybe will, have less hate.
Thanks. :)
Dear Praxedes,
Like I said, fighting empathy with hate and closeminded-ness is very driven by your personal agenda and not anyone else’s.
You are imposing your political beliefs onto others and that is the exact reason for hate in this world. You are speaking for God and other’s and that is very selfish.
No one can speak for God except God and he accepts everyone regardless of what you read.
Gea,
How selfish of you to impose your beliefs on others that they are selfish.
PS
Just a heads up. Whenever Planned Parenthood is involved in ANY kind of project they bring their own agenda driven by the greed that comes from killing babies and harming women. The promiscuity of the young is PP’s bread and butter and exploiting women is par for the course.
Just to clarify, God does loves us all, SO, he sent himself, through His son to be pierced, beaten, and scorned to make randsom for our souls. He didn’t do it so that everyone will be accepted! He did it so if u chose to accept his gift, accept him as ur savior and repent (which is doing a 180, completely turning from sin) be obediant to his will and laws, u can have life abundant and free, u can spend eternity with him vs eternity in hell completely sperated and in darkness!! He didn’t do it so that humans can continue to live in sin and of this world. Even Lukewarm Christians will be spit out, we will all be judged for our actions and EVERY idol word spoken. So I would suggest u speak carefully!! And act cautiously!! He is a loving God who HATES sin! He despises sin and WILL NOT tolerate it! Now on to the show, I do not need to watch it to know its wretched! As I stated before its complete and utter disgust and exploitation! As is teen mom and 16&pregnant! Just realize who these show target, who they are sponsored by, and their ultimate goal!! Thou shall not murder!
Just know also that the devil cannot attack the heart so he goes for the mind. Rendering open-mindedness a door for him to slip in and take ur soul!! And don’t get me wrong, I’m not judging anyones salvation here just stating the facts! The devil preys on the naive.
Ugh… really. Gea, stop making God who YOU think He should be and read His Word and understand Him for who He already was way before you and your “enlightenment” came on the scene.
God loves EVERYONE. Yes, that is true. He does. But He does not ACCEPT everyone. Something must be done with sin. If someone will not turn from sin they are NOT going to be accepted by a perfect, holy God. So while God is not going to reject someone because they wore an ugly purple sweater to a party (what we humans judge one another on) He will reject someone who lived an immoral life of sexual perversion, killed precious children through abortion and never repented! The flip side is anyone who repents God is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.”
Remember, the Bible says “wide is the gate that leadeth to destruction” and “narrow is the gate” that leads to eternal life and “few there be that find it!” FEW. FEW will find eternal life. How sad is that? Not God’s fault. He sent His Son to take the punishment for sin but we are such an obstinate, foolish race. We refuse to read God’s Word and do what He says!
Its time to call sin, sin Gea. Stop playing around with it because God doesn’t. And this isn’t MY two cents. This is Biblical. READ THE BIBLE. God will reveal Himself. “They that seek Me shall find Me.”
Wow. I came here to read this post and look over some comments to see if I could get a view of what “the other side” is thinking and maybe try to make some connections. At 26, I honestly don’t know anyone who is pro-life. But let me tell you, I am horrified.
“or suffers from the severe depression that she is currently suppressing.”
How presumptuous! Honestly, that’s the feeling I get from most posts here. I understand you folks feel it is “murder” and that is why you’re so vitriolic, but you’re not winning any converts. You have people like me who know that at early stages of pregnancy it is a clump of cells and not a ‘human being’. We don’t consider it murder.
What I don’t understand is, why not focus your efforts on reducing abortions via education and other means, NOT outlawing it? Why not make efforts to improve the adoption / foster network in this country? Many children that aren’t young white babies languish in foster networks for years, if not their whole childhood. It is not an optimal world to bring an unwanted baby into.
CS it is YOUR side that says they would rather abort their children than place the baby for adoption so how exactly are we supposed to improve adoption when you keep killing the babies that would be adopted?
Secondly, that is NOT TRUE that non-white babies languish in foster care for any reason other than it takes a long time for children to be adopted when they are removed from parental care and placed in the foster system. I have several friends who tried to adopt foster kids and just as the adoption would have gone through (after YEARS) the kids were yanked back and placed with the parents again, many who were drug addicts. So what does abortion have to do with that? These were “wanted” kids that the parents had and were raising but abused them. Are you saying the solution is to kill non-white foster children? Is that what you’re getting at? That it would be better if these non-white foster kids had been dismembered while in the womb?
Its not a clump of cells. I am not even going to debate science with you. If you really want to learn then look it up and see the truth. I’ve been pregnant. VERY EARLY (like one month pregnant) my son had a beating heart, a human shape and arms and legs. Not a ball of cells. When you make uneducated statements like that its hard for me to take anything else you say seriously. I am close to your age. I don’t know how you can be so naive at 26. Stop being so close-minded and maybe you’ll have friends with opposing views. I have pro-choice friends. I am not afraid of their opinions or to debate them because I know I’m right and have truth on my side. Why are you afraid to open up your limited little world to others with opposing view points. You apparently need to surround yourself only with pro-choice friends because your arguments are weak and wouldn’t stand a real debate with a pro-lifer.
You have people like me who know that at early stages of pregnancy it is a clump of cells and not a ‘human being’.
At what stage of pregnancy, in your opinion, does it change from “a clump of cells” into a human being? And is there any stage at which you feel it is NOT ok to kill that “clump of cells?” If there is no time during fetal development when you would say “stop, this is NOT ok,” then you have absolutely zero reason to bring up “lack of” fetal development as an argument for your POV.
Trick question: When does the offspring of two humans become human?
http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php
It is not an optimal world to bring an unwanted baby into.
So, are we to assume you believe ending the lives of unwanted babies is better than allowing them to live? Being “unwanted” has nothing to do whatsoever with the inherent value of any human. It does, however, give us insight into the mentality of those who would CALL any human “unwanted.” Being unwanted is not a shortcoming of the child, but of his/her parents. And if killing is the solution to ridding the world of unwanted children, why not extend that to postpartem? Many pro-choicers do, and if you are truly pro-choice, it is the only logical progression of your viewpoint. What is the developmental or inherent difference between a child who has just exited the womb and one who is beginning his descent down the vaginal tract?
My wife recently had an abortion and it was the hardest decision we’ve ever made but also the right decision and I am so thankful that we were able to have the decision to make. We were 15 weeks pregnant and found out our baby had a host of medical problems. The baby wasn’t going to survive and if it stayed in my wife longer my wife would have been severely injured and most likely wouldn’t be able to have another baby. Our doctors, family (who is mostly pro-life) and friends were all extremely supportive. I know that our situation is very different than the 3 presented on the MTV show but it’s still the same choice. Being pro-choice does not mean being pro-abortion. I’m not pro-abortion and it shouldn’t be used as back up birth control but it is not my decision or your decision or the court’s decision. It’s the decision of the mother.
Charles,
Did your wife’s regular OBGYN perform the procedure?
What is the difference in the result of an abortion as birth control and an abortion as the “solution” to treating a child with medical issues?
Kel, no, we had to go to a clinic as her insurance wouldn’t pay for the procedure. Also, you missed my point. It wasn’t a solution, it was a necessity. The baby was not going to come to term and if we let it progress my wife’s health was in jeopardy.
And by the way, I am very sorry for your loss. However, I have counseled post-abortive women who have been in your situation and being “thankful” you had that “choice” does not necessarily make it easier to live with the guilt and knowledge that you ended your child’s life unnaturally.
I have no guilt. I’m sad that we never got to meet her but fully believe that we made the right choice. But that’s the kicker. It was a choice. That choice may not be right for everyone but it was for us. Again pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.
I am sorry Charles.
Did you name your baby? Find out the sex? Have a memorial service? Do you have the ultrasounds kept as mementos? Did you do anything as parents to memorialize and remember this special child?
There are medical situations that require emergency c sections or early inductions that cause the death of the child to save the mother. I have no moral argument against that as the INTENT in those instances is to save TWO lives. There are mothers that I know personally that carried their children with extreme health problems that would prove to be fatal.
What you are saying is that your doctors told you the baby had problems and might have “severely injured” your wife(whatever that means)and you went ahead and aborted the child.
Am I understanding that correctly?
a friend of mine was told early in her pregnancy that her baby would have downs syndrome, she considered abortion…when her baby was born (after much prayer) there were absolutely no complications and she had a healthy baby girl. we are so reliant on “tests” these day and don’t even consider maybe just maybe the results could be wrong. Charles, i don’t know ur situation, but aborting a live baby and aborting a “dead in utero” baby are totally different. and Kel, most pro-lifers speak from some sort of experience, wither it be first had or just being involved. I can say from the bottom of my heart that it’s totally impossible for a woman to kill her offspring and not suffer from depression. that’s why i said she is currently suppressing it. It will come out eventually! I’m 28 and honestly couldn’t name one person in my group of friends that’s Pro-abortion or pro-choice as u’d like to call it, so i say it’s more a matter of who u choose to associate with. I’m sure where u live and the school system u were raised in has a lot to with ur “opinion”.
Kel is a moderator here.
A mother and an amazing prolife warrior.
FYI
Here is a website for parents who have some severe prenatal diagnosis and choose NOT to abort their children.
For some abortion is NEVER a choice.
http://www.benotafraid.net
Carla,
We did find out the sex, we ended up not naming her and yes, we did keep the ultrasounds and early presents as mementos. We have a memory box that we made of all these things. You’re right in that we took a gamble. We weren’t 100% positive the baby wasn’t going to make it but after seeing our normal OB, and two high risk specialists we were given the information that the baby had down syndrome, CMV, very small size and my wife’s amniotic sac had collapsed which had serious implications for her well being and future pregnancies. So yes, we made the choice to go ahead and terminate while it was still legal in our state to do so. It’s very easy to say you’re strictly pro-life until it happens to you. Did you know that 90% of all down syndrome diagnoses end in abortion? No way that all of those 90% were pro-choice beforehand.
Carla, another great website. http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com
Do you think you will name your daughter?
I never said you took a gamble.
I ended the life of my first child through abortion and yes I can adamantly tell you right now I would NEVER have another abortion. It is that clear cut for me.
When a test comes back positive for DS(and they can be wrong)many prochoice doctors immediately offer a “termination of pregnancy” instead of letting the shock wear off and offering AMAZING support networks of parents of children with Down Syndrome.
PS
Down Syndrome is not a disease.
Yes. I am familiar with websites that justify abortion.
Carla, it wasn’t the down syndrome. If it was just that we would have kept her. It was the CMV and the small size of the fetus and the worries of our doctors of how the CMV would interact with the down syndrome. Once they saw that her amniotic sac had collapsed we were told that there was a very very high chance the baby would never come to term. We waited about 2 weeks after the initial diagnosis before we made our decision. We talked to parents of down syndrome babies, parents of CMV babies, talked to our genetic counselors, talked to our families, prayed, and ultimately came to our decision. I don’t know if we’ll name her. I have in my letters that I’ve written to her but it’s more difficult for my wife as it should be since she was carrying her, not me.
and Kel, most pro-lifers speak from some sort of experience, wither it be first had or just being involved. I can say from the bottom of my heart that it’s totally impossible for a woman to kill her offspring and not suffer from depression. that’s why i said she is currently suppressing it. It will come out eventually! I’m 28 and honestly couldn’t name one person in my group of friends that’s Pro-abortion or pro-choice as u’d like to call it, so i say it’s more a matter of who u choose to associate with. I’m sure where u live and the school system u were raised in has a lot to with ur “opinion”.
Christa, you’ve lost me. Which of my comments are you referring to?
I think you may have meant to address your comment to CS.
Charles wrote
Did you know that 90% of all down syndrome diagnoses end in abortion? No way that all of those 90% were pro-choice beforehand.
Carla responded
When a test comes back positive for DS(and they can be wrong)many prochoice doctors immediately offer a “termination of pregnancy” instead of letting the shock wear off and offering AMAZING support networks of parents of children with Down Syndrome.
PS
Down Syndrome is not a disease.
Charles,
You and your wife are the parents of a child who died by abortion. Please do not leave your wife to flounder along in her grief and leave the naming of your child up to her cause “she carried her.”
We are talking about your daughter.
I have had an abortion and two miscarriages. I grieve them all.
Not sure why you came on here today but my heart is breaking that your child died.
If you came here to justify your abortion to a bunch of prolifers well, now you have.
If you came here to justify your abortion to a bunch of prolifers well, now you have.
That is usually why they come here, Carla. As you know.
Carla,
I found a link to this post from salon.com in their article on the mtv special. I wanted to show another example of why people have abortions and why it is important that we have this choice in our country. MTV showcased teen (or early 20’s) women who made the choice to terminate based on their life situations. I wanted to share a story of people who are financially/emotionally ready to have children but for other reasons an abortion has become a heartbreaking choice. And it’s a choice that not everyone would/should make. It was a choice that we made. Yes, you should grieve for my child as have we. However, at the end of the day as sad and awful as our choice was, it was the right choice for us, and I truly believe the right choice for our baby. Obviously people on this site will not agree with me and you have every right to disagree but I just wanted to share a story.
Charles, you defended your choice but then said abortion should not be used as back up to birth control. If abortion is not the murder of an innocent child then why SHOULDN’T it be used as back up for birth control? Why not? Please explain.
So are you advocating the murder of disabled people? Sick people? You say abortion should not be chosen for frivolous reasons but somehow your case is different because your daughter MIGHT have been sick or MIGHT have died and your wife MIGHT have been injured. So in other words you’re advocating the murder of disabled people since your daughter MIGHT have been disabled and that wasn’t good enough for you. I’m sorry but I can’t accept or understand the mindset of parents who purposefully kill their children because they MIGHT die. HUH?
I watched the 16 & Pregnant Abortion special last night – I had no idea it was on, but I watch the show simply because I was pregnant when I was 15 (decades ago) and the subject is of interest to me. I was taken by surprise with the Abortion special & the entire time I felt that it was some sort of propaganda…I kept telling my husband that someone had to be behind this…that the pro-abortion (and YES there are pro-abortion people) groups must have raised a stink that MTV only covered keeping & adoption. So I started searching to see of what I suspected was true & I found this blog – first time here.
One thing that REALLY struck me about the show was that it seemed to be touting abortion as a viable, reasonable, completely acceptable & healthy option. Dr. Drew pointed out a couple times that lots of women are even happy & relieved after their abortion. But the 3 women there to tell their stories seemed absolutely miserable; one oif them could not bear to be around her toddler nephew still 2 years after her abortion. My point is, there seemed to be a disconnect between what the show was trying to promote & the actual state of mind of the girls who had actually been through the procedure.
The eldest girl of the group said she was happy with her decision, though she also teared up ad said that she was not strong enough for adoption & that abortion was easier for her. The whole thing was surreal to watch.
The body is remarkable. When a child cannot live for whatever reason a child in the womb dies naturally. There are physical reasons that a child in utero dies.
What you are advocating Charles is killing a child before she dies naturally.
Why Do Women Have Abortions?
– a statistical breakdown*
Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
(Approx.)
“Hard Cases” (given as primary reason)
TOTAL:
7%
(Approx.)
The majority of abortions are done for convenience NOT the hard cases.
Charles,
If your wife begins struggling please get her some help. She is grieving your child and her abortion.
Oh and this is my abortion story
http://outcrywisconsin.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-story-at-faith-community-church.html
Megan,
Welcome!! Your hunch was correct!! :)
Not hard to find the trail that leads right to the ones who profit from the killing of innocent children.
Oh and I would agree(even though I didn’t watch the show)that to display women that SEEM fine with their abortions but are crying and struggling only adds to the confusion of how abortion affects women.
Their tears are the truth.
btw
If you are post abortive and would like to comment on the MTV 16 show
here you go
http://www.mtv.com/videos/no-easy-decision-special/1654990/playlist.jhtml
Megan- Welcome! however, you might want to choose a different moniker, as the one you have is currently taken by a vitriolic post-abortive little girl.
Charles,
I am very sad for you and your wife that you made the decision to abort your daughter. Please give her a name.
I was about as far along with my third baby as your wife was when it was recommended to me that I abort my child due to complications and fears for my health. This was a scary time for me and even someone I thought was strictly prolife told me she thought I should consider aborting.
Fortunately, I have seen the humanity in the preborn since I saw aborted pics of babies in a book as a child. I refused to make the ‘choice’ the ‘professionals’ recommended and my son celebrated his golden birthday this December 14th.
Your daughter deserved to live until God decided to take her.
You are imposing your political beliefs onto others and that is the exact reason for hate in this world.
Gea,
Have you ever heard of groups that want to legalize sex with children? I’m opposed to their political beliefs too.
Call me a hater. . . . . .
I am pro-choice. Pro-woman. Pro-child. And a Christian. These young women are brave and I am SOO elated that they did this special. Abortion is one of THE SAFEST medical procedures. A third of all teen pregnancies end in abortion. It is shameful for you to use your religion as a tool to shame other women. You are not pro-life. You are ANTI-WOMAN and anti-choice. For you to want to make decisions for other women is disgraceful. Just because you would never have an abortion does not mean you can make decisions and chastise others. I had an abortion three years ago and I am happy and have lead a very productive life.
So, being a christian (christ-like) how do u think God feels about ur “choice” to murder one of his children? I almost threw up reading ur comment.
Alyssa, if abortion didn’t take the life of an innocent human being, then none of us would be here disputing it. No one argues when someone needs their appendix out. No one has to “shame” anyone for having open heart surgery.
It’s too bad you weren’t pro-your-own-child because it was not convenient at the time for you to parent. It’s too bad your Christian faith did not seem to have any bearing on your decision-making either before or after your child was conceived. It is unfortunate that your “productive” and “happy” life came at the expense of the life of another. Your own child. I have no doubt you were elated to see other young women making the same self-focused decision you made. It’s comforting. It’s easier when we can compare our own mistakes to those of others and see how we aren’t really “all that bad” and that other people do the same or even worse. We can compare ourselves all we like, but it won’t change what we and others have done – regardless of how high the numbers are. We also have a 50% or higher divorce rate. That doesn’t mean divorce is a wonderful, happy, harmless event.
Very few people here actually use religion as a defense for being pro-life. Pro-life is the pro-science view, and there are plenty of us who are agnostics and atheists.
And btw, labeling those of us who have actually helped women in unplanned pregnancies as “anti-woman” is rather short-sighted, don’t you think?
Hi Alyssa.
“It is shameful for you to use your religion as a tool to shame other women.”
Abortion is the unjust taking of innocent human life. Once does not need to appeal to religion to be able to say that
1) Human life is sacred and precious simply because it is human. We value human beings because of what they are intrinsically, not because of something they can do or an attribute they have attained.
2) Any action that directly takes innocent human life is wrong.
3) Abortion takes an innocent human life.
Therefore, abortion is wrong.
No appeal to religion, just the simple notion that human beings should not be killed in light of what they are.
“You are ANTI-WOMAN and anti-choice.”
Suppose I am anti-woman. How does that invalidate the above argument? Indeed, when it comes to the “choice” to kill an innocent human being I am anti-choice.
“For you to want to make decisions for other women is disgraceful.”
I would like them to not be allowed to kill people. Is it so disgraceful for me to want to make the decision for someone else that they can’t kill someone?
” Just because you would never have an abortion does not mean you can make decisions and chastise others.”
No one believes that the reason they “can make decisions and chastise others” is because they would not have an abortion. It is because they believe that abortion is the unjust taking of human life.
Alyssa, all of your arguments are question begging. They assume without proof that the unborn do not have an inherent right to life or that they are not human, which is precisely what pro-lifers claim. If they aren’t human, then great. Abortions for all, tax funded abortions, it’s all good. No need to appeal to “safeness” or all this semantical language about “choice” and “decision.” Anything can be hidden in that language. Observe:
“How dare you tell me what to do with my body? You’re anti-man! You’re against my right to make a safe decision as regards to what I do. It’s disgraceful that you would take away my decision. My decision is what I decide for me. If you’re against decision, don’t participate in the action that is decision, but don’t tell me that I can’t decide.”
Who knows what the heck I’m talking about there? It’s a bunch of meaningless drivel that has no substance or content- just emotionally charged rhetoric, which masks what I’m really talking about, all hidden with the word “decision.” Clearly what I mean by “decision” will greatly affect whether or not someone agrees or not with what I am saying.
So let us try to answer the question- is abortion the unjust taking of human life or not? If it is not, no justification for abortion is necessary. If it is, no justification for abortion is adequate.
Alyssa said,
” Just because you would never have an abortion does not mean you can make decisions and chastise others.”
Several of us here are post abortive and deeply regret paying an abortionist to kill our children.
Try again.
Oh and thank you for coming here to chastise us. :)
Abortion is one of THE SAFEST medical procedures
Alyssa, How great that you are happy and productive after paying to have your child go through what you knew would be THE MOST UNSAFE medical procedure for him.
I’m watching the show now and am I the only one who thinks its ironic they are featuring a black girl! Let’s look @ planned parenthood and the founder. Her main goal was to get rid of African Americans. 1 of EVERY 2 black pregnancies are aborted! Minorities, under educated and low income are targeted. This girl is balling her eyes out because in her heart she knows its wrong to abort but she’s too selfish to give the baby up for adoption! She keeps saying she doesn’t want her 1st baby to suffer but she has yet to accept the fact they already made the choice when they had unprotected sex…..can’t believe the clinic told her they use “gentle suction”. I have a feeling if there were ppl praying (like 40 days for life) or sidewalk counelers giving her options she would have changed her mind! They told her not to think of what the baby really was, 10 fingers and toes. And can’t believe they are bring up God!!! She will suffer with this for the rest of her life!! She will never feel “normal” again! So sad!!
I hope they come back to this girl in 5 years and show where she’s at emotionally….and in 20 yrs physically! She has mixed emotions because she knows she murdered an innocent baby that felt that procedure! She keeps saying “no-one wants to have an abortion”. Wow she really is way off! Dr (and I used that term loosely) drew said 1 in 3 women will have an abortion!
There is no such thing as post abortion syndrome.
You all keep saying how emotional and a wreck she’s gonna be in 20 years. Maybe she will be. But many other women feel perfectly fine with their decision. They know they made the right one. They’re not “grieving” over the “baby”.
Hi Alyssa,
Whether a woman actually grasps the fact that she paid an abortionist to kill her child or she doesn’t grasp that fact doesn’t change the truth that the child is dead.
Gads. If I had a nickel for every post abortive woman who came here trying to justify her abortion………
A full, grown LIVE woman should have more rights than a zygote, or embryo or whatever you want to call it.
By the time a woman finds out she is pregnant the zygote phase is over.
From one former zygote and embryo to another……………
You will tell yourself and anyone else whatever you can to deny that you had your own child killed in your abortion.
If you EVER start to feel yourself struggling please reach out for help. There is amazing post abortion recovery available.
ps
Most women do not begin to feel the full effects of their abortion for 7-9 years after it. Just an FYI
Here’s an FYI for you. Instead of preaching and telling other people what they should do and shaming women for “murdering” an unborn child, go out and actually do something WORTHWHILE to help another LIVE human being struggling. You don’t know what other women go through or the emotions they felt and experiences they’ve had.
No worries. I already do that.
One more thing, Alyssa. How dare you try to deny me my grief over the killing of my daughter in my abortion 20 years ago!!! How cold and cruel of you to deny the pain of my abortion experience that brought depression, nightmares, suicidal thoughts and a suicide attempt! You are ok with preaching at and shaming women who DO REGRET their abortions!
My abortion story is irrefutable and just as valid as one who says, “My abortion was the best thing I’ve ever done!”
There is no such thing as post abortion syndrome.
Sure there is. It often starts out with flimsy attempts to rationalize irrational choices with people you know will never change their prolife position. I have never met or heard of a vocal prolifer who later became a proabort.
Welcome to Jill Stanek’s place. Even if you never comment again, I think I’m safe in saying, you’ll be back to read.
Remember Carla’s name. Best wishes for a safe and happy 2011.
I’m sorry that you are grieving. But listen, you cannot make decisions for other women. Abortion cannot be made illegal because it is not fair.
What would be “unfair” about abortion being made illegal, Alyssa?
Did you read Bobby Bambino’s post above? He laid it out perfectly. Answer the questions he posed. The pro-life position is a very logical and coherent one. We don’t hate women. We don’t hate sex. We don’t want to control every woman and make her life miserable.
We do not want to see the lives of innocents taken. That’s it. You do what you want with your body, but your rights should stop where they stand to take the life of another human being. And again, let’s not split hairs here – a human zygote will never become any more or less human than it is. Regardless of stage of development – zygote, embryo, fetus, neonate, toddler, pre-teen, adolescent, adult, elderly – humans are humans.
again, none of you are talking about the show itself. you all have your own personal agendas and personal INTERPRETATIONS of what God says. Who are you to speak for God? Sto being elitist. You have all been brainwashed into becoming close minded haters of anyone that deviates from your point of view. No one should have to name their aborted fetus if they don’t want to. Stop pushing your agenda. People are free to make choices. Stop hating others and spreading propaganda.
Alyssa,
“A full, grown LIVE woman should have more rights than a zygote, or embryo or whatever you want to call it.”
I have many, many critiques of this criteria. Let us first point out the fact that you have not given any reason at all whatsoever to believe this. You simply assert it without any evidence. Unfortunately I think that is the least of the problems with this. First, I am not sure what you mean by “live” woman. Do you mean “alive”? If so, that is simply incorrect. The embryo is very much alive. It undergoes cell differentiation and is an organism that, given teh proper nutrition and environment, will grow and develop through all stages of human-hood. Please note that the argument is NOT that if it is alive and human, then it is a human being. So many times I see pro-choicers make this very, very bizarre error where they claim that the embryo is not alive, the pro-lifer responds by showing that it is indeed alive, and then the pro-choicer “counters” by saying something like “the skin cells on my arm are alive- does that mean that I kill people every time I scratch my arm?” Being alive is a necessary condition for being a human being, not a sufficient one.
Next, it is true that full grown women have more rights then embryos. They have the right to vote, to drink alcohol, to drive, etc. But your assertion (again) begs the question by assuming that abortion is a right that someone has. But if anything, your assertion proves too much. For a 16 year old girl is certainly not full grown, and thus would not be allowed an abortion in your worldview. Also, why should full-grownness warrant rights like the right to life?
This gets at the next problem with the statement which is that it implies that those who are full grown are “worth more” than those who are not. Thus, I am worth more than my 3 year old, she is worth more than her 1.5 year old sister and, of course, they are both worth more than the 16 week old fetus in my wife’s womb. So while I do have more rights than my children, I do not have more “natural” rights than them- I do not have the right to kill them, or even do something much less serious, like cut them. But if it is the woman’s full-grownness that allows her to kill the unborn, it seems like if she can kill someone who is unborn, she should at least be able to say, break their arm if they are a newborn. Because if natural rights are determined by state of growth, then natural rights should progress gradually and in stages. The more full grown are worth more and have more rights than the less full grown.
“Instead of preaching and telling other people what they should do and shaming women for “murdering” an unborn child, go out and actually do something WORTHWHILE to help another LIVE human being struggling. You don’t know what other women go through or the emotions they felt and experiences they’ve had.”
Suppose I never have and never will help anyone with anything ever. How does it follow that abortion is not the unjust taking of an innocent human life? How are the above arguments refuted?
Suppose I do more than anyone in teh history of the world ever has for unborn and pregnant women. Would you then become pro-life? How would my actions in regards to your demand affect your position on the unborn? Again, your quoted statement is an ad hominem argument, one that does not at all address the issues at hand in any way, shape, or form but rather attacks the individual making the arguments.
Sydney, you are sadly misinformed. “My side” does not want to abort babies. Yes, we want to keep that option open. But I, and every other pro-choice friend I have, would prefer that children are born and adopted into a loving, wanted home. My mother was adopted and I plan to adopt myself. In 2009 there was almost half a million kids waiting to be adopted in this country alone. Many kids “age out” of foster care.
Does this mean that unwanted babies should be aborted? No. Does this mean that unwanted CLUMPS OF CELLS should be aborted? Sure. (More on what I consider life to be, below.)
I also have a coworker who went to adopt a child, grew attached to them, and then the birth mother pulled the child back due to probably wanting to collect money. Is this fair? No. Does adoption in this country need to be changed? YES! Of that we are both in agreement.
But instead of making efforts to perhaps change the adoption process in this country, you rail against abortion. Look, I knew you’d come back and scream about your science. Sound science SHOULD guide our abortion policy. Fortunately, sound science currently falls under abortion’s favor, which is why it is still legal. Of course I want them to keep studying it. I guarantee when they find conclusive, testable, repeatable evidence that it causes some catastrophic harm abortion will be outlawed. Moreover, abortion actually saves many lives – of women! Abortions WILL still happen in this country, outlawed or not. Never again should a woman have to use a coat hanger or go to Mexico for a back alley abortion.
I find your insistence that just because I am pro-choice also means I’d have no problem killing a baby absolutely laughable. It’s because you believe that life starts at conception, whereas I do not. It is a hotly debated issue and more studies need to be done. I believe that when a baby can survive outside the womb, ie it is viable, then it is a life. I agree with outlawing late-term abortions.
Prior to the baby being viable I DO BELIEVE it is a clump of cells and would have no problem terminating it for any reason whatsoever. This is really the crux of the issue, I suppose.
I can see that any sort of “friendly” debating with you folks is out of the question. With the exception of perhaps Kel you are all extremely defensive and I find your dismissal of other people’s experiences with abortion (“I hope you’re there for her when the extreme depression she’s going through manifests itself…so you chose to possibly severely injure your wife and you’re okay with it?”) absolutely disgusting. I find it ironic that Carla says “how dare you deny me my grief!” when she is the main one dismissing others’ experiences and says they must be WRONG to be okay with having an abortion!
Hi Alyssa,
You are sorry for my grief over my abortion? I can appreciate that.
Hi CS,
If someone comes here to a prolife blog to start proclaiming that they had an abortion and are FINE with it they should expect SOME KIND of push back, no? Or do we all just give each other a cyber high five and swallow our deeply held and opposite viewpoints?
Now I have to ask if you DON’T regret something why would you feel the need to keep saying you don’t regret it?? Hmmmmm.
I find abortion absolutely disgusting.
CS,
please enlighten me how sound science is on the proabort side.
CS – I can be unfriendly when I want to be. LOL!
Bobby’s comment above is excellent. I’d appreciate it if you and other pro-choicers like Alyssa would please address his questions.
As for when life begins: http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
Thank you Gea. I’m done now. Unfortunately for you, abortion will remain legal and a safe option for young women :) Preach all you want. I doubt we’ll see the day your pro-life stance is made into a law. Thanks for your time!
By the way, here is a site that will help you tackle the issues you say I am not supplying you with. Take a look. And stop judging other people when you have NO IDEA what they are going through or have gone through. http://www.livestrong.com/article/13934-nine-reasons-why-abortions-are-legal/
Alyssa,
First of all, there are MUCH better atricles defending the morality of abortion than those written by Planned Parenthood. While there are many intelligent pro-choicers who can rationally and intelligently defend abortion, PP is not one of them. Now I don’t have time to refute every point on the link, but all of the arguments are either question begging (i.e. assuming that the fetus is not a human being) or extremely weak. I will look at what, in my opinion, is the “best” argument provided. If you believe that there is a better argument, I would be happy to respond to it.
“There’s an argument these days that a fetus is a “person” that is “indistinguishable from the rest of us,” and that it deserves rights equal to women’s. On this question, there is a tremendous spectrum of religious, philosophical, scientific and medical opinion. It’s been argued for centuries.”
Okay, so far so good.
“Fortunately, our society has recognized that each woman must be able to make this decision, based on her own conscience.”
This, of course, begs the question. Suppose we are talking about whether or not a woman should be allowed to kill a two year old. Would the same line of reasoning work? Of course not. The argument assumes that the unborn are not worthy of life and that indeed, they are NOT a person as the first few quoted sentances lays out. This needs to be argued. No one would say that you can kill a person if your conscience dictates it is moral. So if it isn’t person, no justification is necessary, as we have seen before.
“To impose a law defining a fetus as a “person,” granting it rights equal to or superior to a woman’s–a thinking, feeling, conscious human being–is arrogant and absurd. It only serves to diminish women.”
This is a VERY standard thing to do. Simply list a whole bunch of properties that people at a certain time of development have (usually around teh age of 3 or 4) in an attempt to overwhelm the reader in a kind of “buck shot” strategy. “It can’t do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this.” as if those conditions are necessary for having dignity and moral worth. The question is: if you feel, is that what makes you valuable? Or is it the fact that one is conscious that makes one valuable? Which of those criteria (or is it ALL of them) infuses dignity and moral worth on a being? If I can’t think, do I deserve to die? How do we determine when someone thinks, is conscience, and feels enough in order to allow them to live? In other words, is teh reason I shouldn’t kill you because you can feel? What do we have to feel? How do we measure this “feel” criteria?
Now if there is any sort of clarification or further explanation about this “argument” of PP, I am happy to entertain it. But again, none of the arguments are spelled out carefully or thoughtfully so all I can do is speculate about what they are trying to say.
And like I said, if you find any one of the other arguments of theirs more compelling than the one I quoted, I am happy to entertain it.
“By the way, here is a site that will help you tackle the issues you say I am not supplying you with. ”
In fact, Alyssa, the article you provided does no such thing. No, I’m not saying that I’m not satisfied with the answers, I am saying that it does NOT at ALL tackle the points I brought up. I don’t know if you either didn’t read what I wrote or didn’t read teh article by PP or what. The closes it came to doing so was indeed in teh 2 sentences that I quotes and refuted above, but other than that, they are all standard, question begging arguments which most thinking pro-choicers have long ago abandoned. So I’m honestly not sure what to think at this point.
I have been where you are Alyssa. I felt relief after my abortion at first too. I felt that something was wrong but didn’t know what to do about it. So I drank like a fish. I have walked this journey for 20 years which lends itself to a certain credibility when talking about abortion. My experience allows me to talk all I would like to about it. And I do.
Just like you.
CS if viability is the line between “clump of cells” and human being does that mean the line moves every time medical science advances in saving pre-term babies?
http://www.lovingit.co.uk/2010/06/can-babies-feel-pain-at-24-weeks.html
Photo of a baby born at 23 weeks, before viability. Doesn’t look like a clump of cells to me. No more than I am a clump of cells anyway. You claim science is on your side and then say “I believe” it is a bunch of cells. So which is it a belief or science?
Kylie, if I had money for every time a so-called “scientific” pro-choicer decided to wax philosophical when it came to the “when does life begin” question, I’d be filthy rich right now.
They don’t WANT to accept the science that a new human life begins at conception, so they say “AHEM, well, world religions do not agree on when a fetus is infused with a soul…” and so on. They don’t want to hear about our “religious arguments” but they like to toss their own into the ring when they’re shown the facts.
Alyssa cannot refute anything that’s been said here. That’s why she’s referenced an article that doesn’t address any of the points anyone has made and has decided she is “done here.” Alyssa has rhetoric and emotion on her side, but not science or logic.
I met a friend of a friend recently who is pretty high up at Planned Parenthood. She described her job as somewhat of “Quality Control.” Basically she travels around to clinics which are not hitting there abortion numbers & finds out why & then works with the folks at these clinics to get the “numbers” up. Like all government funded “nonprofits” the govt $$ is on a “use it or lose it” basis. This woman is insanely busy & travels constantly trying to keep the abortion numbers up all over the country.
I am actually REALLY confused as to why adoption is rarely even mentioned as a choice. I do understand the fate of “unwanted” children as the PP statement on the Livestrong (Lance Armstrong, model of morality) website, but newborn babies are FAR from unwanted – in every region, race & mix. I have 3 friends currently adopting from foreign countries because it was too difficult for them to get a child born here!!!! Is the abortion industry purposely blockading the road to adoption in the US so that they don’t lose their numbers??? I’m so confused……
Prior to the baby being viable I DO BELIEVE it is a clump of cells and would have no problem terminating it for any reason whatsoever.
CS also refers to preborn humans as both babies AND clumps of cells all in one sentence. So which is it? a baby or a clump of cells?
We all know that all humans are made up of cells. What you are really saying CS is that you would have no problem killing a human baby. Nice. If that doesn’t speak pure hatred, I don’t know what does.
Alyssa, just because you have the legal right to do something, doesn’t make it the right thing to do. Abortion (like murder, arson, battery and rape) has always been, currently is and always will be an irrational, evil choice.
The more you rationalize today, the quicker you can move through and on to the next step in the PAS process. Good luck.
There was an accurent affairs program here that quoted an abortion doctor saying, “Science doesn’t know when life begins, religion doesn’t know when life begins, I think life begins when the mothers heart says it does.”
What a load of rubbish. Life, humanity, important etc have nothing to do with wantedness. If it did any person who didn’t want a baby, child, or elderly person in their life could just kill them with no consequences.
CS, “more studies need to be done”. HA! HA HA HA HA HA! How many more “studies” do you need? You wouldn’t accept them anyhow! We now have ultrasound and fetology that demonstrate over and over and over the humanity of the unborn and that the unborn has LIFE and yet here comes the Geas and Alyssas and CS’s of the world shaking their fingers at us, defending murder and saying we don’t know when human life begins and we need more study.
CS, I daresay you would look at me and contemplate seriously if I had human life. Who is to say? You are seriously blinded.
Alyssa, better watch out. Your reasoning that one human ought to have “more rights” than another human being is why whites enslaved blacks and why men used to have voting rights and land ownership and women could not. We are saying all human life is valuable and equal. Just because your child could not speak or cry out “I want to live Mama!” does not mean your child was any less valuable than you.
Bobby, you say the same things over and over again. Everything any pro-choice person says to you will “beg the question”. What you say is not better than what anyone else says. Get over it. You cannot even hold a viable conversation. Rethink the way you speak.
Sydney, it is absolutely despicable the way you compare that to slavery. Seriously? You’re crazy. You seem to forget that I do not think that something inside the womb is a HUMAN. “I want to live Mama!” You’re sick haha. You make me laugh.
The rest of you. I don’t know why you keep saying the same things over and over again. And frankly, there is no point. You stick to the same story and the facts you think you know and believe in and reiterate it over and over gain. In fact, you all bore me. Not one of you has said anything that remotely makes me want to change my stance on a abortion. And I know that anyone who truly believes in women’s rights will never be pro-life like you bunch. In fact, I believe you actually turn people against you.
Instead of shoving abstinence-only education in young women’s faces, you should be teaching them comprehensive sex education. And access to birth control must be made more available. Then maybe one third of all pregnancies would not end in abortion. Why don’t you spend your time doing that rather than preaching your beliefs. You need to accept the fact that women have rights. And one of those is to end her pregnancy. Especially when she has been raped or is a victim of incest. Do you ever think about that? You’re all shameful. Have wonderful lives. I only hope that one day you will all come to your senses.
How is abortion not like slavery Alyssa? If we believe the fetus is a human being and that born people are saying unborn people have no rights and using them as they see fit, you really don’t see the correlation to slavery? Are you really that dense? You cannot possibly be.
We are making the same argument over and over and over until you GET IT. Its like how I am teaching my 4 year old to tie his sneakers right now. I go over the same part of shoe tying over and over and over and over until he GETS IT. Then I move to the next part. Somewhere there is a disconnect in your brain that you can’t even comprehend rational thought. So we’re breaking it down real simple so that maybe you , Gea and whoever else keeps rah-rahing abortion might, just might finally grasp it even if you don’t agree with it.
I wasn’t making jokes Alyssa. You’re a pretty soul sick person if you think thats funny. You need counseling.
Why are anti-choice people so full of hate and judgement?
Reading this forum feels my heart with sadness that you women are attacking each other with such harshness and malice. Instead of empathy and comfort, you throw stones!
Being from London, England, I’m so glad my society is better at accepting a woman’s right to choose.
I pray that God helps you to have more love in your hearts and stop casting stones at others.
Fiona
Seriously? You’re crazy. You seem to forget that I do not think that something inside the womb is a HUMAN.
There is nothing else human offspring could be in utero other than human. You can disagree and choose to ignore facts and science. That’s your choice. But simply because you “do not think” it doesn’t change the actual fact whatsoever.
Not one of you has said anything that remotely makes me want to change my stance on a abortion.
That could be because your stance on abortion has little to do with logic or facts. Your stance on abortion exists because you made that choice and you will now defend that choice, regardless of the facts and regardless of how strong anyone’s argument is. We will, however, continue to give you the facts. And when you are ready to face them, there are people here who are willing to help you. Laugh in our faces and mock us now. But you can only run from the truth for so long.
Instead of shoving abstinence-only education in young women’s faces, you should be teaching them comprehensive sex education. And access to birth control must be made more available. Then maybe one third of all pregnancies would not end in abortion.
Would comprehensive sex education and birth control have caused you to choose not to end your child’s life through abortion?
You need to accept the fact that women have rights. And one of those is to end her pregnancy. Especially when she has been raped or is a victim of incest. Do you ever think about that? You’re all shameful.
In our society, it appears the only time we promote the killing a child for the crime of her father is when she has been conceived through incest or rape. Because those children are worth so much less than children conceived in other circumstances. Right?
There is nothing shameful about actually HELPING a rape or incest victim through her trauma instead of helping her to become the perpetrator of an even greater violation of humanity.
Have wonderful lives. I only hope that one day you will all come to your senses.
Come to our senses and see that the taking of innocent human life is the best way to go? Not likely. But when you come to the end of what you hope your storybook life will be (since you’ve gotten rid of that little inconvenience), I hope you’ll think of us here and know there are places you can go for help if you so choose.
Why are anti-choice people so full of hate and judgement?
What I hate is the taking of innocent human life. Those who have come here seeking to justify their abortions will not find a pat on the head. They will find the truth. That’s the only thing that will eventually set them free.
By the way, do you only invoke the name of God when trying to guilt or shame others and manipulate them emotionally? Or do you invoke His name and the power of His Holy Spirit to help you in your daily living and to “rescue those who are being led away to death?” The God I know has said “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew You; before you were born, I set you apart.” He also spoke through David in the Psalms, saying,
“For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.”
Those of you who claim to know Christ and yet commend and promote the slaughter of unborn innocents might be fooling yourselves, but you’re not fooling Him.
I think I’ll go check on all my little blessings sleeping in their beds now, and take myself to bed as well. Goodnight.
Kel, I went to the princeton link. First off, do not, do not, do not “snipe” quotes from articles. I am very wary of a giant page full of out-of-context quotes. I could make Richard Dawkins look anti-evolutionary if I wanted to.
I think the key is what “life” means to you and I. Yes, your link has correct science. An embryo begins at fertilization. I don’t consider an embryo to be a human life. I consider it to be…again…a group of cells that has the potential to be human life. The fetus doesn’t truly become neurologically active until around the fifth month.
So, you and I are defining life in different ways. To you, an embryo is alive. And you are right; sperm is alive, eggs are alive, cancer is alive e.coli is alive. An embryo is alive. What life means to me is when does that living group of cells get human status conferred to it? To me it is NOT at the point of conception when an embryo begins.
Kylie, I attempted to look at the links showing studies where babies can feel pain at 8 weeks and it was a dead link. So, I Googled it. I found one study from 1980. You will also notice that there are many varying degrees of interpretation to these studies. Reflex? Actual pain? More studies need to be done. Here’s an interesting article: http://news.discovery.com/human/fetus-pain-abortion-law.html Ultimately, one research paper does not a conclusion make.
Prax, really? That’s all I’m going to say to that. It absolutely blows my mind that you people genuinely believe that we want to kill babies. BLOWS my mind.
You know what else blows my mind? I’ve never seen a pro-lifer interested in post-birth services. We can outlaw abortion when the number of unwanted children placed in loving homes is under half a million, when low-income mothers not ready for babies have affordable health and child care. Fight for THOSE changes, folks.
Hi Alyssa.
“Bobby, you say the same things over and over again. Everything any pro-choice person says to you will “beg the question”.”
Yes, I realize it sounds like that, but that is because, in my estimation, about 95% of pro-choice arguemnts do indeed beg the question. The problem is not on my end, but in the fact that teh pro-choice movement does not seem to be aware of any other logical fallacy besides begging the question. I keep repeating myself because I have yet to hear a response to my counter-argument. If you gave a response and I missed it or did not respond, please let me know. But of course I keep repeating myself- no one has refuted any arguments.
Also, how does the fact that I claim that all the arguments beg the question somehow refute my refutations? It doesn’t.
“What you say is not better than what anyone else says.”
This is not an argument.
“Get over it.”
Get over what? You haven’t said anything of substance, Alyssa. You haven’t made any points or given me anything to think about. All you have done is point out the fact that I realize that most pro-choice arguments beg the question.
“You cannot even hold a viable conversation.”
Alyssa, you have simply not given me any chance nor anything to work with.
“Rethink the way you speak.”
First of all I’m writing, not speaking. Second of all, I have no idea how you would like me to write differently. Should i not point out errors in logic? I’m being sincere here. I have no idea what i did to offend you so much nor why you are so closed to discussing anything.
“Bobby, you say the same things over and over again. Everything any pro-choice person says to you will “beg the question”.”
Oh and actually, this is not true at all. As I said, 95% of PC arguments are question begging. However, there are two kinds of PC arguments that are not question-begging. One is a “persnhood theory” where the PCer admits that indeed the embryo is a human being, but just being biologically human is not enough to confir the stauts of a right to life. It must be viable, or have brain waves, or be sentient, etc. We see CS making such a personhood theory above (though CS still seems to be confused about the biological status of the embryo). So what CS is saying RIGHT ABOVE does NOT beg the question.
The second argument in favor of abortion that does not beg the question is the argument from bodily autonomy. This argument says that not only is the embryo human, but, for the sake of argument, it is a person with the same rights as you and me. However the embryo, so the argument goes, does not have the right to “use” a woman’s body if she does not want it. It is an unwelcome guest, much like a burglar in her house, so she has the right to defend herself against the embryo, even to the point of killing it. It would be justifiable homicide.
So there are two arguments that do not beg the question. If you would like to expound upon them further, I would be happy to do so.
I was working at a school for children with disabilities when I became pregnant with a clump of cells. These children were all experiencing behaviors that were extreme, to the point of being either self-injurious/violent towards others. Another woman who had been working there a little bit before I was hired also had a clump of cells that had died (wait…if it’s just a clump of cells, how did they all decide to die in unison unless IT WAS A SEPARATE LIVING ORGANISM?!) because she was attacked by a student and kicked in the abdomen. I loved my work there, but if I wanted to safely carry my clump of cells, I’d have to go.
Now, when I found out about my clump of cells, my clump of cells’ father (wait…so…it didn’t just randomly divide there, or sprout up like cancer? Hmm…) decided he would like to have our clump of cells killed/eliminated. He was physically and psychologically abusive, and said that if we didn’t have the clump of cells killed, he’d kill himself.
I was living with my grandparents at the time. I was staying with them because I had had to move out of my mom and dad’s place because my father had struck me, actually knocking out one of my teeth. Needless to say, I did not want to go back. My grandparents told me that if I ended up with a clump of cells, I’d be kicked out of the house. This factor would’ve made killing my clump of cells even more attractive a proposition.
One of my coworkers told me about how she had killed her clump of cells when she was 17, and it was the greatest thing she ever did! She was able to go backpacking around Europe because she killed her clump of cells, and I should think about doing it too, because it would give me all kinds of opportunities if I did.
But, I figured since it was only a clump of cells, if I just left it alone, it’d integrate, or go away, or fuse into the rest of my bodily systems, or kill me or something, so I just kinda let it ride.
But the weirdest thing happened! Apparently, while I just kinda let it go, the clump of cells ended up making more and more cells, and a few months later, this weird grayish slimy bloody clump came out. It weighed 7lbs and 6oz, and turned out to be a female clump. She acted hungry, so I decided to feed it, and now she’s an 8 year old clump that comes up to my shoulders (I’m 5’6″), has a 5th grade reading level, loves My Little Ponies just like I did when I was that age, and kicks my butt at Halo: Reach on a regular basis.
Those “clumps” ARE people. It’s easy to say “Oh, yeah, I’m pro-choice. Clumps are clumps, man, it’s not HUMAN.”, but when you put a face on one of those clumps, and give it some time to grow, you will find out that all those “clumps” you’re talking about are real people with dreams, hopes, thoughts, and feelings, and you’re advocating their killing.
“Reading this forum feels my heart with sadness that you women are attacking each other with such harshness and malice.”
No. Killing my daughter in an abortion would’ve been the most harsh, malicious thing I ever would’ve done in my life to that point, and I want to end deaths like that for every other woman in the womb that’s threatened with having her little body ripped to shreds or otherwise killed and expelled and thrown into the trash. THAT is “harshness” and “malice”.
Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions.
Clearly they are airing “opinions”. Pro-lifers know the truth and value of human life!
Proverbs 18:7 A fool’s mouth is his undoing, and his lips are a snare to his soul.
Its quite evident that on the day of judgment they will have to give account for their lies and idol words spoken that follow their wicked actions. Its not until one has a true relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ that they can be freed from the devils bondage!
Proverbs 23:9 Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
The banter @ this point is useless. Let them drown in their misery of deceit, time to brush the dust off and move on!
And their response will be “u bible-beating-radical-christian-right-wing-wackos”. Well so be it!!
CS I linked you to a picture on a page with an article about pain but pain wasn’t the point. The point was the born, non-viable human baby pictured. Not a clump of cell but a human being.
What we do about post-birth services does not make killing a baby right. But how to you know what pro-lifers do? How do you know if any of us have adopted babies? How do you know if we donate money to help struggling mothers? How do you know if we campaign our governments affordable health and child care? You have made assumptions about every pro-lifer here without asking anything.
xalisae, I cried reading ur post! What a testimony! One day, if u haven’t already, that will be a powerful example to share with ur daughter about the value of life and owning up to ur responsibilities!! So did u end up leaving ur abusive “clump of cells father”? And did ur grandparents kick u out? I’m so intrigued!! =)
After much trying in the relationship (which also was not my daughter’s fault), he and I split quite awhile ago. But even he sees now that killing his daughter would’ve been wrong, and he won’t talk about it with me anymore.
I moved out of my grandparents house and into an apartment, we bounced around for awhile, now I’m working somewhere else.
Circumstances are not a reason to kill your child. Circumstances change. Dead is dead forever.
Prax, really? That’s all I’m going to say to that. It absolutely blows my mind that you people genuinely believe that we want to kill babies.
CS, yes, really.
Reread. I responded to Alyssa’s quote where she says, “Prior to the baby being viable I DO BELIEVE it is a clump of cells and would have no problem terminating it for any reason whatsoever.”
Do you see where Alyssa says, “Prior to the BABY being viable…”??
Alyssa used the word ‘baby’ herself! If it helps to ease your conscience, I will get rid of the word ‘baby’ just for you.
Proaborts genuinely want to kill humans. Proaborts kill their own children. Proaborts believe in killing others. Proaborts advocate killing the preborn. Proaborts cheer on mom’s paying butchers to kill their offspring. Proaborts support legal killing.
Even simpler: Proaborts kill.
My bad CS. I reread and it was actually you, not Alyssa, who referred to the fetus as a baby.
You KNOW that preborns are humans and you advocate killing them anyway. Pure hatred.
You also say, “I’ve never seen a pro-lifer interested in post-birth services.
You don’t get out much, do you?
First of all, that was not my quote. It was CS’s. Please read more carefully.
Second, “Proaborts genuinely want to kill humans. Proaborts kill their own children. Proaborts believe in killing others. Proaborts advocate killing the preborn. Proaborts cheer on mom’s paying butchers to kill their offspring. Proaborts support legal killing.
Even simpler: Proaborts kill.”
You are sadly misinformed if you believe that this is what the pro-choice stance is about. This is absolutely UNTRUE. And any person who actually believes this is beyond conceivable.
First off, do not, do not, do not “snipe” quotes from articles. I am very wary of a giant page full of out-of-context quotes.
I don’t see how any of those quotes from biology and medical texts are out of context. They’re no more out of context than Wikipedia’s or the online dictionaries’ definitions. But I can see why you’d like to believe they are.
I think the key is what “life” means to you and I.
Actually, no. The key is what “life” actually is, scientifically. This isn’t a philosophical issue.
Yes, your link has correct science. An embryo begins at fertilization.
Oh, so NOW apparently it doesn’t matter if they’re “out of context?”
I don’t consider an embryo to be a human life.
Well, that depends. If it’s a human embryo, it’s a human life. If it’s another species of embryo, then it would be, say, a bovine life or canine life.
I consider it to be…again…a group of cells that has the potential to be human life.
A sperm and egg separately have the “potential” to become human life. They have the “potential” to fuse and create a wholly distinct organism with distinct DNA. But one that fusion occurs, it is no longer “potential.” I’m sorry, but the pro-choice “potential human life” argument is a philosophical one, NOT a scientific one. You can continue to believe this all you like, but it isn’t science.
The fetus doesn’t truly become neurologically active until around the fifth month.
Is being neurologically active your criteria for personhood? Should the fetus in utero THEN be protected by law? Because if your answer is “no” then all your criteria don’t matter anyway. You still believe a woman should have the choice to kill her “neurologically active” child in utero.
Alyssa,
You’re right. I should have read more carefully. See my post above yours. Sincere apology.
If my statements about proaborts are so “UNTRUE”, maybe you can tell me specifically what you went into the abortion clinic WITH that you later walked out of the abortion clinic WITHOUT?
You paid someone big bucks to do something at the abortion clinic. What exactly did they do for you?
Ended my pregnancy. It is that simple to me. But the choice wasn’t simple. It was carefully thought out and I decided that is what was best. I am not going to get into the specifics because I do not feel I have to justify MY abortion. But I think it is important to realize that women do have that option and instead of demeaning them, you should be sympathizing. And for you to tell me that I “genuinely want to kill humans” is absurd. And maybe to you it isn’t, but to me it is. And that’s the point. We have two completely different views on the issue. I will never agree with your side and you will never agree with mine.
In the end, you can believe what you want about abortion, but I don’t think people should make choices for other women. And that’s what “my side” comes down to: choice. And that choice may not be yours, but it shouldn’t be taken away from someone else.
What was taken out of your body that ended your pregnancy Alyssa? Be specific.
And that’s what “my side” comes down to: choice.’
Yup. You are for the choice to end pregnancies, which we all KNOW also kills at least one human.
We have two completely different views on the issue.
I absolutely agree. I am opposed to humans choosing to kill other humans. You are not. It’s that simple.
Choose away Alyssa.
And that choice may not be yours, but it shouldn’t be taken away from someone else.
But this is what abortion does, Alyssa. You chose death for another unique, living being. Your child. You can’t even say the words. You’ve veiled everything in rhetoric. “Choice.” “Ended my pregnancy.” Birth also ends a pregnancy. You didn’t just “end a pregnancy.” You terminated the life of a new, living organism. Your offspring. You aren’t getting into “specifics” because you can’t even admit to yourself what you’ve done.
When I had several outpatient surgeries over the years, I didn’t have to agonize over them or carefully think them out to decide if they were best. Abortion is a whole different ballgame, because somewhere inside, we ALL know what abortion really means. We just jump through hoops, deny scientific evidence, label others as haters so we don’t have to actually consider that their viewpoints may be valid, and become armchair philosophers in order to deal with what we’ve done.
I’ve seen some completely honest pro-choicers on this site who say to us “Yes, it’s a human life, and yes, I can kill it if I want to.” Peter Singer from Princeton is also an honest pro-choicer who believes parents should have at least the first year after birth to decide whether or not they want to allow their newborn’s life to continue. Singer doesn’t have to jump through hoops. He’s taken the pro-choice belief to its natural conclusion.
The only reason you are HERE is to justify your abortion, Alyssa. You just don’t recognize it like the rest of us who have seen it a thousand times.
I terminated four pregnancies. By giving birth.
Dearest Alyssa,
I do sympathize. I have done the same thing you have done by ending the life of my child through abortion. I have said what you are saying. I justified it for years and advised so many young women to ABORT. Thank God that my sisters didn’t listen and I have two beautiful nephews!
IF you ever find your life spinning out of control and you cannot figure out why and struggle with everything that has to do with pregnancy or babies please come find me.
I wouldn’t be a true caring human being if I didn’t try to point you to the truth in love. If I didn’t at least TRY to point out the error in your thinking. If you were fine with your “choice” you wouldn’t keep coming here telling us you are fine with your “choice.”
That is all we have tried to do. In our snarkiness and exasperation and unrelenting posting of the truth we reach out to you and other women like you.
I happen to care very much about post abortive women who are hurting. My deepest pain from my abortion has become my greatest passion.
Never say never.
I wish you well.
carla@jillstanek.com
Prax – yes, I did refer to “baby” and “clump of cells” in a single sentence, but reading comprehension is your friend. Am embryo, this clump of cells, does eventually become what we call a baby. This is fact.
You, and other pro-lifers, believe an embryo is a baby.
I, and other pro-choices, do not believe an embryo is a baby.
Ergo, pro-choicers are not okay with killing babies.
Embryos are alive. They will eventually become human. If you want to call them “human life” due to this fact, that’s fine.
But even your “human life” argument is flawed. I know you’ve heard this argument before, but the cells on my toes are human life, too. They are alive, and they are from a human…human life. Ever had a pedicure?
So. Human life is not enough of a qualifer to refuse to kill it, and neither is just “life” – ever killed a mosquito?
Therefore the only logical way to qualify whether abortions should still be legal is when we transfer HUMAN RIGHTS to an embryo. Just because an embryo has the potential to be an autonomous, thinking, feeling human being doesn’t mean it is or that all rights should be conferred on it. This group of cells depends upon my body for life. It doesn’t think. It doesn’t feel. It is not a candidate for human rights.
By the way, as a reasonable person, I can see your point of view, that you believe an embryo is human life and therefore must be protected. I also hope you can see our point of view that an embryo the size of a tadpole which feels neither pain nor consciousness should be conferred the same rights as you or I, thinking, breathing, feeling people.
Abortion is anti-women. Were I to accidentally become pregnant – and I am married and use birth control – I would not want the emotional and physical toll of pregnancy, nor would I want to bring another child into the world and into our adoption system. One less baby in the adoption system means one of the half a million kids currently in the system will get adopted instead of mine. And again, to me, I am killing a non-human. You are deluding yourself if you think science is in full conclusion that human life starts an embryo. Google it. There are scientists on your side, and scientists on ours, and scientists who just aren’t sure but are researching diligently.
Abortions will always happen. ALWAYS. If outlawed, women will simply go to abortion mills; use homemade means; travel to Europe, where this is considered a basic reproductive right. And that’s exactly what it is.
Pro-lifers, you can affect abortion change without outlawing it. Work to bring abortion rates down via sex education and other means. Look at your life – are you out there picketing Planned Parenthood in a completely useless measure, or are you trying to enact change? Are you active in post-birth measures? If you are not, you are a hypocrite.
In any case, this will be my last post. I refuse to have a discussion with folks that genuinely believe that pro-choicers want to kill babies. It is absurd and ridiculous.
Also, thanks to you folks, I will be doing something I haven’t done before: donating to abortion funding! I will be donating $500 “in honor of” your names – Prax, Kel, and Christa specifically – to fund abortions for women who couldn’t otherwise pay for them. These women thank you!
Hi CS.
“But even your “human life” argument is flawed. I know you’ve heard this argument before, but the cells on my toes are human life, too. They are alive, and they are from a human…human life. Ever had a pedicure?”
The embryo and a skin cell are different in kind. They are different kind of organisms. An embryo, given the proper environment and nutrition, will grow and develop through all stages of humanity (the embryo stage being one of them). The embryo is self-directed in this sense. It is a whole, complete organism which is human but simply less developed than you or me. That is not the case with a skin cell. It is a biological fact that you and I and every other person has been an embryo at one point. The organism that is CS was once in teh stage of development known as embryonic. That is NOT the case with a skin cell. The embryo that you were is the same organism that you are now. you were never a skin cell nor does a skin cell have the natural potential to develop into an adult.
“Therefore the only logical way to qualify whether abortions should still be legal is when we transfer HUMAN RIGHTS to an embryo.”
Yes, I agree. However, that is why many people make a distinction between “human being” and “human person.” Biologically, it is a simple fact, as Kel as pointed out, that embryology unequivically affirms that the embryo is a human being- a human organism. But the question, as yolu stated, is when should it attain rights?
“Just because an embryo has the potential to be an autonomous, thinking, feeling human being doesn’t mean it is or that all rights should be conferred on it. This group of cells depends upon my body for life. It doesn’t think. It doesn’t feel. It is not a candidate for human rights.”
So what is it that makes someone worthy of rights? Is it the fact that they feel? Is it the fact that they think? Must all the things you mentioned be present in order to deem it with moral dignity and worth? In fact, if I were to ask you why you can’t kill a two year old, what would the answer be? Would teh answer be taht you can’t kill it because it can feel? No. The reason we can’t kill someone is not because of something tehy can do or a status tehy have attained, but simply because of WHAT they are, which is a human being. And again, the “group of cells” comment is simply incorrect. It is a unified whole which self-directs in order to grow and develop, just like you and me and a toddler.
“You are deluding yourself if you think science is in full conclusion that human life starts an embryo. Google it. There are scientists on your side, and scientists on ours, and scientists who just aren’t sure but are researching diligently.”
This really is not the case. If you have actual examples, I would be happy to read them, but I am 99.9999% certain that they will be personhood theoreis- i.e. it isn’t human because it isn’t viable or sentient or can be frozen and thawed while surviving or has teh potential to split and recombine etc etc. I have never ever ever seen a scientific text claim that biologically the zygote or embryo is anything but a human organism. Again, like I said, I am happy to read anything, but you should read anything that claims that the embryo is not human very carefully because chances are that it is not for a scientific reason but for a philosophical reason. This fact is hit home further when one sees that all the “big name” pro-choicers- all the intellectuals who argue for abortion rights in universities and of college campuses ALL admit that the embryo is a human being. There wouldn’t be personhood theories or bodily autonomy arguments if there was ANY chance that the embryo was anything other than human.
“Are you active in post-birth measures? If you are not, you are a hypocrite.”
I have to call you out on this here. How is this hypocritical? Suppose I do nothing at all to help the born. What about my actions is hypocritical? Only in the pro-life movement is an argument like this accepted. For suppose a doctor devotes his entire life to curing colon cancer. Would you argue that he is a hypocrite because all he cares about is colon cancer and completely ignores those with breast cancer? Would I be justified in blasting “take back the night” beacsue “yeah, they do things to help women, but they don’t care at all about men! Where are they when men are abused?” In other words, if I have a cause that I stand behind and do a lot of work for, am I a hypocrite for not getting involved in and helping with similar causes, even if I support teh actions of those causes? How much stuff do I have to do and to what degree in order to both be against abortion and not be a hypocrite? If all pro-lifers were extremely active in post-birth stuff, would abortion then become immoral?
Thank you for the discussion.
Hi CS!!
I just donated a bajillion dollars to the nearest PRC in your honor!! They help women choose life and also help women with abortion recovery!!
WIN WIN!
CS, my mother had 3 abortions before she gave birth to me. I survived the womb. U can’t hurt me! However ur donation will destroy lives…so if u can sleep at night with a free heart, good for u. This life is short, ur next life won’t be! I’ll be praying fervently for u and ur fellow pro-murderers!!! The devil has waged war for ur soul and seems like he’s winning! My soul is covered in the precious blood o Christ and I know to whom I belong.
But even your “human life” argument is flawed. I know you’ve heard this argument before, but the cells on my toes are human life, too. They are alive, and they are from a human…human life. Ever had a pedicure?
My cells belong to me. They have my DNA, and ONLY my DNA. A new human life has his/her own distinct DNA. You are being disingenuous, and you know it. Scraping cells off your toe isn’t the same as killing a newly developing human life. You aren’t even TRYING to be honest here.
It doesn’t think. It doesn’t feel. It is not a candidate for human rights.
So you are the determiner of human rights? If I am on life support with no brain activity, am I still human?
I also hope you can see our point of view that an embryo the size of a tadpole which feels neither pain nor consciousness should be conferred the same rights as you or I, thinking, breathing, feeling people.
Your attempts to dehumanize unborn life are duly noted. If I am disabled and can feel no pain, or if I am unconscious, or dependent on a ventilator, does that make me non-human?
The only discrepancy about when life begins exists in philosophical arguments, not in scientific ones. Even pro-choicers like Peter Singer agree with the Pope that life begins at conception. This isn’t a difficult concept. If you believe taking developing human life is ok because it’s tadpole-sized and less valuable than a neonate, then own it. Don’t obfuscate.
BTW, it sounds like you believe most pro-lifers are on sidewalks picketing abortion clinics. Many are, but many of us are also actively helping women to carry to term and thereafter by supporting maternity homes, CPCs, and the like. So your blood money donation “in honor of” certain pro-lifers really makes no difference. Except that your money is going to take life and my money goes to GIVE life. Many of us have been directly responsible for helping women to choose life when they were under great pressure to abort, and we have had the joy of seeing them with their children and helping them through their temporary financial hardships.
LIFE wins. Always. I hope one day you’ll be able to see that.
CS, human embryos don’t “become human.” They ARE human! They can’t become what they already are. And they are already human because a basic biological fact is that species reproduce after their own kind. I can’t give birth to a monkey or a kitten because I am not a monkey, nor a cat. I am a human so when I reproduce my offspring will be the same kind of being I am from the moment of existence, albeit smaller and less developed than me. But in no way less HUMAN. This is not genetic engineering we are talking about here. This is basic science! BASIC! My 4 year old understands it. Why can’t pro-choicers? You are not carrying a different species when you are pregnant. The embryo IS human.
Cells on your toe will always just be cells on your toe. They have the same DNA as you. They are part of your body. An embryo has DIFFERENT DNA than the mom and will grow and change in form and function. The body that once was a ball of cells grows appendages, produces its own blood, maybe even has different genitalia than the mom and continues to grow and develop until adulthood. The human embryo will always be a human from one cell to billions of cells. The cells on your toes will always just be your stinky toe cells. And you know it. But nice grasping at straws.
I notice no one responded to my post. It’s not very nice when you can put a human face on those “clumps”, is it.
CS, we are the only ones here who completely understand what being pro-choice means (not pro-killing people, which is completely false). They honestly believe that they are better people than we are. It is very sad that instead of supporting women, they demean them. We are the only ones here who believe in women’s rights. They think they know for a fact what God believes. And that is fine. We’ll see when we pass away. I have a hunch though… Either way, we have Roe V. Wade on our side. And we will do everything it takes to protect that. I wish all you women well.
CS, we are the only ones here who completely understand what being pro-choice means (not pro-killing people, which is completely false).
I get it. You’re simply for the “choice” to allow grown women to kill the children growing in their wombs. For pretty much any reason. But I know – you can say “I’m not pro-killing people!” because you’ve decided that since they’re as small as tadpoles, that means they’re not ACTUAL people. They’re something else, something out there in the philosophical land of “whatever I think they are, they are.”
They honestly believe that they are better people than we are.
Being “better” has nothing to do with anything. We do not believe that killing unborn human beings should be anyone’s right or privilege. That’s all. But I’ll admit that personally, I don’t think highly of someone who advocates for someone else’s “right” to kill innocent people arbitrarily.
It is very sad that instead of supporting women, they demean them. We are the only ones here who believe in women’s rights.
Many of us here have helped women and their children for years now, through CPCs, through maternity homes, through adoption, through taking in women who had nowhere else to go, and so on.
I believe in women’s rights to do anything they want to do. But ANY person’s rights (not just women’s rights) should stop where those “rights” cause irreparable harm to another human life. You can’t just go out and shoot people in the head without consequences. It isn’t your right. Neither should it be your right to kill your child, either in or out of the womb.
They think they know for a fact what God believes.
Isn’t that funny? No one here has used God in ANY of our arguments for our pro-life stance, yet you persist in bringing Him up. You can think what you want, but abortion’s not about religion. Once you get that through your head, you might learn something.
And that is fine. We’ll see when we pass away. I have a hunch though…
LOL. Yeah, I can just picture God up there, smiling and nodding in approval as you throw away the gifts of life He’s given you. Psalm 127:3 says “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.” So far, that’s the only verse I’ve given you from the Bible, and I think it pretty much blows your little “hunch” out of the water.
Either way, we have Roe V. Wade on our side.
Yes, be sure to cite Roe v. Wade when you meet that happy-go-lucky “god” of yours in the afterlife. :D
When you get done defending Roe v. Wade and trolling pro-life websites to justify your abortion, just know that women like Carla are here for you. You know where to find them. Take care now, Alyssa.
I don’t think I am a better person than you or anyone else Alyssa, including preborn humans. If our country legalized killing anyone with the name of Alyssa, I would fight to stop these killings too.
You know exactly what you left the abortion clinic without although you refuse to answer this question. The abortionist did not suck out a clump of toe cells or sperm cells or plant cells or a wart or a tadpole or a shrimp. The abortionist sucked your child out of your body thereby causing his death. I know it, you know it, CS knows it and everyone reading this knows it.
Your life is not more important than your child’s was anymore than my life is more important than yours. I will not say what you want to hear because that is not in your best interest. There are women and men here, myself included, who tell you the truth because we love you and care about your future.
Once you admit what you KNOW to be the truth, recovery and Hope will follow.
You didn’t come here by accident.
My mom had an abortion 32 years ago, between my brother and myself (after my brother there was/is another little sister).
She hasn’t regretted it once. Actually, when I raised the issue a couple of years ago, she said she hardly ever thought about it. It was bad timing, there were some health issues, and she had me to take care of. ::shrug::
Most abortions are performed by mothers, who are concerned about their other, existing children, and don’t have the resources to take care of another child at that time. Most women who have abortions go on to have other children later.
Reading what you guys have to say, and your blindness towards other people (“I have a right to my grief because it’s mine and it’s how I feel!! But you other women who feel no grief are wrong wrong wrong and I will now tell you how you ACTUALLY feel or will feel because I am Every Woman Ever!!!”), all I can do is thank the good Lord (in whom I do not believe, being an atheist), that I live in a civilized country that does not think it has a right over my body, or believe that the rights of a pre-born trump mine,.
Happy New Year, all!!
It’s very hard to take someone serious who thanks someone she doesn’t believe exists.
In spite of this, you also know WHO your mother had with her before her abortion that she didn’t have with her afterwards.
Abortion does not just harm the mother and kill the child, it affects other family members as well. I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your sibling Gillian.
Supporting the killing of humans does not make you civilized, it actually makes you just the opposite.
Happy New Year to you too!
Gillian: If I were you, I’d be thanking the lord that I don’t believe in that it wasn’t ME in my mother’s womb when she decided to have whoever was in there executed.
I never understand this. If the issue is that there are only enough resources for ONE child at the time, then why not kill the child already born? After all, no risk to the mother THAT way. Abortion always carries some risk but killing a child out of the womb means no surgery, no risk! Eh, that would suck for you now wouldn’t it Gillian?
Shannon, you killed your baby. You may not see it that way know, but you will one day. You and the man may still break up. He’s just using you if he hasn’t respected you enough to marry you. You are just there for sex. I only know of 1 woman who aborted and married the man. It’s rare though. Be careful. 98% of women who abort their bfriend’s kids do not last. My girlfriend aborted her baby 13 years ago and still says “I’m okay with it.” Yeah right! She’s very insecure. She’s almost 200 pounds [she usede to be 130] She sees a shrink. She is on tons of medications for psychiatric problems. She always thinks her hubby is cheating on her. She has jealousy problems, and she has been hospitalized with mental health issues 3 times……. BUT SWHE DOES NOT REGRET THAT ABORTION! ????? She DOES! Anyway, she and the man broke up 5 weeks after her abortion. It ruined the relationship. She aborted cuz she was in college at the time.
sorry 4 the typos
I am a pro-life woman and I find you women and men extremely offensive. You make us look like we do not care about the women who have abortions. Instead of blaring out things like “YOU KILLED YOUR BABY” maybe you should handle the situation with love and care. It is very disrespectful.
Shannon, although her problems may be from the abortion, have you ever thought it might not be? You shouldn’t exploit your friend by writing about how fat she is and how she sees a shrink. I am a psychologist and you should not make it seem likes it is a problem that she is seeing one. It’s very hurtful what you did.
You say that you want to support and care for women who have had abortions, but I do not see any love and support here. I am very disappointed. You have been terribly hurtful and abusive to these women who are sharing their stories. It is important for both sides of the issue to express their opinion without being relentlessly and repeatedly attacked.
Hi Chloe,
I think you are addressing Heather?
There are several post abortive women who comment here. I am one of them. I have been here for 3 years and a moderator for 2. I have been shown much love and compassion from my fellow prolifers. From the proaborts? Not so much.
The truth is my child was killed in my abortion and I deeply regret it. So it stands to reason that a child is killed in an abortion whether or not the mom accepts that truth or not.
It is also sometimes hard to believe that proaborts come here and sing the praises of abortion. Moms who had abortions come here specifically to say Yes it was a baby. My baby. And I am glad I did it!! I find that extremely offensive. Many of us do and we deal with that in our own way.
I have a friend who had an abortion. She goes to my church. Every time she has heard me tell my abortion story at church she specifically searches me out to tell me that she is so glad that her abortion never “bothered” her the way it “bothers” me.
She is extremely overweight, struggles with depression and has been on every kind of anti depressant there is. That does not sound healthy does it? I am not being hurtful by telling of the friends I have that are post abortive. Some have found healing and some haven’t.
I do wish it were true that I am not treated rudely and abusively when I stand with my I Regret My Abortion sign. Sadly, that is not the case.
Carla, I am not speaking about you, but as a moderator I would have thought you would not have condoned some of the abuse that goes on in this thread, and maybe even others.
I am speaking about the people who repeatedly demean and batter these women with words of hatred. And then after tearing them apart end their post with a condescending “oh and by the way, I hope you are recovering well, we are all here for you, we love you”. When they have shown nothing of the sort. It does not do the page justice.
I actually came here looking for some positive conversation between pro-lifers AND pro-choicers , even though I am pro-life, and I don’t see much positive here. I hope that when and if I come back in the future I will see some type of change, and if not then maybe this isn’t the blog for me and I will have to find supportive conversations elsewhere.
And also, modern medicine has helped so many people. Since I do not have a PhD, I cannot prescribe medicine, but I have colleagues who do. Please do not imply that antidepressants and other medicine is something to be ashamed of. It is not. The women who seek help from therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists and the like are very strong women, and the medicine helps them cope with whatever it is they need. Not just because of an abortion.
LOL @ “Christian” bullies who hide behind the anonymity of the internet. “Oh, we don’t hate you; we just think you’re a BABY MURDERER!” Yeah, no hate there. </sarcasm>
<i>In spite of this, you also know WHO your mother had with her before her abortion that she didn’t have with her afterwards.</i>
Em, no. She had a potential child. She decided not to realize that potential. The only person emotional about it is you. You can repeat the same words over and over again, it will not make the foetus my mother aborted anything more that a potential sibling I might have had in another life and a parallel universe. Kinda like the different person _I_ would have been had my parents had the sex that gave them their first-born (me!!!) a few weeks before they actually did.
As for “be thankful that your mother didn’t abort you” – meaningless statement. Be thankful your parents didn’t have sex in a different position so that a different sperm did not fertilize your mom’s ovum, resulting in a different person.
<i>I never understand this. If the issue is that there are only enough resources for ONE child at the time, then why not kill the child already born? </i>
Because it is an independent human life that can continue without the constant support of your every internal organ?
<i>She is extremely overweight, struggles with depression and has been on every kind of anti depressant there is<i>
Yeah. Reminds me of this (ex) friend of mine. She got religion, married young, now has 6 children, and is extremely overweight, struggles with depression, and has been on every kind of anti depressant there is. Doesn’t sound very healthy, does it? maybe if she hadn’t had all those 6 kids….
Also – if you guys truly do not see any difference between an actual human baby and a foetus/embryo (the whole ridiculous “why not kill an existing baby” – which parents, usually fathers, used to do in many cultures), why are you not raising funds to research that most horrific of “childhood” diseases – the dreaded miscarriage that occurs to over 50% (!!!!) of pregnancies in the first few weeks due to chromosomal abnormalities?
Hello again Chloe,
In the future I suggest you simply address the offending commenter then. Call em out. Ask why they are speaking that way. Flat out engage with them.
There are quite a few moderators here. None of us find anything to delete on this thread.
Good luck finding positive conversation with some of the proaborts here.
Gillian wrote “Em, no. She had a potential child. She decided not to realize that potential. The only person emotional about it is you. You can repeat the same words over and over again, it will not make the foetus my mother aborted anything more that a potential sibling I might have had in another life and a parallel universe. Kinda like the different person _I_ would have been had my parents had the sex that gave them their first-born (me!!!) a few weeks before they actually did.”
I am interested in knowing when you think a fetus becomes an “actual” child Gillian. Don’t tell me “at birth”. Because then I will ask you what the vagina does to the child that makes them become an “actual” child. I really want to know WHEN (I mean the EXACT moment) that a “potential” child in fetal form becomes an “actual” child.
Chloe, I’m no expert of medicine but suffice it to say, anti-depressants alter receptors in the brain rendering it a “coping” mechanism. Its used to alter or suppress emotions, no different than alcohol or drugs.
Carla, this is what I mean “Good luck finding positive conversation with some of the proaborts here.” So condescending. I never said I wanted to spend my time conversing with proaborts. I find prolife blogs for a reason. You guys bully people around and it is not right.
I am sorry you feel that way, Chloe.
I disagree.
There are several that promote abortion here and only seek to stir up and incite prolifers. That is the truth.
Chloe,
In my view, accusing “you guys” of “bullying” people around without giving examples is poor communication.
Please point out who and what you believe to be bullying behavior. I don’t see Carla’s last comment as bullying but as fact. She didn’t say ALL proaborts she said SOME. Isn’t saying you don’t want to spend your time conversing with proaborts a bit condescending in itself?
I am sincerely curious.
I read the following in a post,
“…I am interested in knowing when you think a fetus becomes an “actual” child…”
from which I gather that the anti-abortion poster considers that life, as a human being begins at the instant the egg and sperm cells unite, and the zygote is formed, and that an abortion, at any stage, destroys a human life. I find it inconsistent that people can lobby to make abortions illegal without also calling fo sanctions against those mothers who, because of poor choices, suffer a spontaneous abortion. Seems like they should be incited for (at least) negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter.
Is there a group like yours which lobbies for stricter control over miscarriages caused by poor life-style choices?
A final question…how many posters here have adopted children? Seems as if the likelihood of a good and loving home would be a deterrent to the choice to abort.
Keep up the good work,
IZZY Kiddnya
A miscarriage happens naturally. I have had two.
An abortion forcefully dilates the cervix and vacuums out the body of a baby, killing that child. The intent
of the abortion is to kill the child.
Pretty sure you already knew that though.
If I never lift another finger to help anyone in the prolife movement or never am moved to adopt how does it follow that an innocent, growing human child is not killed in an abortion?
Ugh, Alyssa and CS just prove over and over how ignorant pro-aborts are. “Choice” and “my body” and a COMPLETE disregard for science, and then claiming that their OPINIONS and “BELIEFS” are science (it’s not a baby! it’s not a person! because I say so!) and “me me me me me” and not knowing the difference between a human life (i.e. cells) and the LIFE of a HUMAN BEING, dehumanizing little humans to justify their killing, claiming it’s in the name of “choice” and “liberty”….My eyes rolled so hard they were almost stuck in the back of my head.
Obviously, to admit the humanity of the baby means that we must admit that abortion is cruel, unjust, and disgusting. But in order to keep abortion some sort of fake “feminist” act, pro-aborts continue to shirk responsibility, think ONLY of themselves, use slogans and excuses, and do NOTHING to actually help women AND babies. Just abort! Abort abort abort! That’s what it’s all about! I am convinced that being in favor of abortion is a form of mental illness. The blindness and ignorance and lack of integrity in the pro-abortion community….Holy moly.
I find it inconsistent that people can lobby to make abortions illegal without also calling fo sanctions against those mothers who, because of poor choices, suffer a spontaneous abortion.
So, you think choosing to kill one’s child is the same as a woman who, perhaps without knowing she is pregnant, consumes a medication that might cause a miscarriage? Most early miscarriages are due to fetal defect. And early miscarriages are much more common than late miscarriages. Which “poor choices” are you referring to? It isn’t inconsistent to say that the premeditated killing of one’s unborn child should be banned while accidental miscarriage should not be prosecuted. However, have you read about cases where boyfriends kicked their girlfriends in the stomachs to induce “miscarriages?” Please note that those men were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
A final question…how many posters here have adopted children? Seems as if the likelihood of a good and loving home would be a deterrent to the choice to abort.
Many posters here have adopted children. But whether we adopt children or not doesn’t change the fact that killing children should not be considered a “solution” to “unwanted” children. And no, adoption is NOT a deterrent to choosing to abort. Not for most women, many of whom I’ve counseled personally, who say, “I could NEVER give my baby up for adoption!” Yet they choose to abort. Out of sight, out of mind. It’s “easier” and more immediate for them to just rid themselves of the whole unselfish adoption process by killing their unwanted/unplanned children. There is a very real and illogical (and incredibly selfish) disconnect for many of these women.
Kiddanya… ha. What a original moniker. (Note, being facetious)
I have not adopted any. I am still planning on birthing more children. But my sister is trying to adopt one and GASP! There is SHORTAGE of children eligible for adoption. Even most foster kids are not actually able to be adopted because they looked into that too. They didn’t need a baby to adopt as they have 4 boys. But there are just a shortage of kids to adopt and too many would-be adoptive parents. How bout that?
So what is your ridiculous point? If I don’t adopt every baby in the world then abortion doesn’t kill a human being? Nice try.
Answer my question now. WHEN does a “potential child” become an “actual” child. Explain scientifically why this is so.
@Bobby Bambino
> Abortion is the unjust taking of innocent human life.
No. Abortion is termination of pregnancy (please, all of you, look it up).
> Once does not need to appeal to religion to be able to say that
When you follow that statement, Robert, with the statement “human life is sacred”, that puts you firmly in the “religious” coterie. “Sacred” relates to worship of a deity. You’re religious, and all of your arguments fail because you are religious. E.G. your statement: “Human life is sacred and precious simply because it is human.”
That is a textbook example of a circular argument, using the conclusion of an argument as a premise to that same argument. Religious types use circular reasoning a lot, E.G. “God can do anything because … He’s God!” That’s why you write, “begging the question” so much. That’s a logical fallacy because you’re assuming the proposition, to be proven, in the premise. No one is “begging” the question but … YOU. It’s the same thing, circular reasoning. You can read more about circular reasoning here:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Circular_argument
> We value human beings because of what they are intrinsically, not because of something they can do or an attribute they have attained.
No. That’s why YOU value, Robert. Not me. My reasons are completely different and just as legitimate as yours. We all get to have our own reasons. This is not a theocracy. Again, your argument fails.
> Any action that directly takes innocent human life is wrong.
Let me help; the term is homicide: the taking of one life by another.
> Abortion takes an innocent human life.
No. And here’s why, Robert, and all of the rest of you. There is no life in utero. As any logical, sentient person knows: Life begins at childbirth. Any other definition thereof is incorrect, illogical and tainted with religious claptrap.
Your argument fails because you believe that some barely-connected, unmyelinated neurons which have never experienced the world are sentient. This is a belief, Robert, NOT a fact. And it will never be a fact because abortion will never be criminalized, thankfully, in this non-theocratic democracy we live in.
> Therefore, abortion is wrong.
A fetus does NOT satisfy criteria for homicide in the Model Penal Code. Repeat: does NOT satisfy criteria for homicide. And it never will. You can look it up. Therefore it can NOT be criminalized. End of argument. I win. You lose.
However, I hear the weather in Iran is quite nice though. Definitely no abortions there. In that theocratic dictatorship.
Nosiree-Bobby!
Any atheist pro-lifers here want to point out where Steve’s arguments fail? Or even non-atheist ones? ;D
There is no life in utero. As any logical, sentient person knows: Life begins at childbirth. Any other definition thereof is incorrect, illogical and tainted with religious claptrap.
There is no life in utero? The fetus blob of “barely-connected unmyelinated neurons” just becomes alive upon exiting the birth canal? Would you care to explain how this occurs?
Dear Steve,
Thank you for the laugh. Your ignorance is really astonishing.
I find it inconsistent that people can lobby to make abortions illegal without also calling fo sanctions against those mothers who, because of poor choices, suffer a spontaneous abortion.
I’ve had a miscarriage and maybe you can pinpoint exactly what caused the loss of my child because even my doctors can’t. Maybe you could be the go-to-gal who lets everyone know what causes specific miscarriages. Don’t forget that some miscarriages may also be attributed to the father’s poor choices.
However, I have found it’s much easier to figure out what causes an abortion.
Steve MacMahon… I have to be blunt. You said “No. And here’s why, Robert, and all of the rest of you. There is no life in utero. As any logical, sentient person knows: Life begins at childbirth. Any other definition thereof is incorrect, illogical and tainted with religious claptrap.”
That is REALLY STUPID. That is one of the top stupidest statements from a pro-choicer of all time. Were you dropped on your head as an infant? Cause that is the most ABSURD, scientifically FALSE and just plain DUMB argument I’ve ever heard.
Let me break it down for you Steve. I’ve been pregnant. So thanks for “educating” me about the lack of life in the womb but I have had the ultrasounds (earliest one was 5 weeks after conception and there was a heartbeat already. Oh, and brainwaves!)
I watched my son kick, twist, turn, hiccup, suck his thumb, “yawn”, cross his feet and do all sorts of things during the 4 ultrasounds I had during my pregnancy. From very early at 5 weeks to 35 weeks which was 3 weeks before he was born. He was identifiably human and very much alive. In fact, when I was in labor they stuck an electrode on my son’s scalp. If he wasn’t alive yet because he was not yet birthed then what the heck were they so intent on monitoring?
My friends lost their son when the cord wrapped around his neck during the fifth month of pregnancy. I am so glad you don’t know them as you would have explained to them that they didn’t lose anyone and no one died because he hadn’t been born yet. The funeral with a teeny tiny casket was what then? There was a BABY, a very small but formed baby in that casket. That baby died. He was alive but he died. Every doctor who assisted them could try and explain it to you but since basic biology obviously confuses you I doubt it would help.
But boy, those magical vaginas! They turn unformed masses into babies as the masses travel down the birth canal!
Hi Steve.
“No. Abortion is termination of pregnancy (please, all of you, look it up).”
I would say that even if this is teh “popular” definition, it is a very sloppy one. Giving birth also terminates a pregnancy. The main action in an abortion is taking the life of the fetus. That is the point of an abortion and main purpose. Thus for purposes of this discussion, when I talk about an abortion I mean any action taken or not taken which has as its end either the direct or indirect killing of an (unborn) fetus.
“Once does not need to appeal to religion to be able to say that
When you follow that statement, Robert, with the statement “human life is sacred”, that puts you firmly in the “religious” coterie. “Sacred” relates to worship of a deity.”
I don’t want to get too much into semantics, but by sacred, all that I mean is that human life is set aside and has a special purpose. This is an ethic which any sort of humanist can agree with. We don’t kill human beings because there is value in the kind of thing a human is. One is certainly justified in holding that as an axiom. I think it can also be argued as to WHY one would think that, but I see no reason why it would be irrational to start with the ethic that humans have value because they are human. No appeal to a God necessary.
“You’re religious, and all of your arguments fail because you are religious. ”
Indeed I am religious. My arguments failing or not I leave up to the reader.
“That is a textbook example of a circular argument, using the conclusion of an argument as a premise to that same argument.”
What you quoted this in response to isn’t actually an argument. Again, it is pointing out the fact that one is completely justified in holding that human life has value because of the kind of thing it is. It point out the fact that by definition of what it is, human life is precious.
” That’s why you write, “begging the question” so much.”
Yes, I write it because most pro-choice arguments do that. I assume you can see that and are able to tell good pro-choice arguments from bad ones. As you are aware, I was responding to many bad pro-choice arguments.
“No one is “begging” the question but … YOU. ”
If you are able to show why the arguments I responded to were not question begging, I am all ears.
“No. That’s why YOU value, Robert. Not me. My reasons are completely different and just as legitimate as yours. We all get to have our own reasons. ”
Steve, first of all, when I wrote this, I was not responding to anything you said, but to someone else. If you have your reasons, I would be happy to hear them. My appeal is to our simple moral intuition. Why can’t I kill you or my grandma or a two year old? My guess is that if no one had “the whole abortion debate” in the back of their mind, their answer would be because they are a human being. That is what makes them valuable. But I’m all ears for other theories.
“Again, your argument fails”
Thanks.
“No. And here’s why, Robert, and all of the rest of you. There is no life in utero. As any logical, sentient person knows: Life begins at childbirth.”
You have not at all argued in defense of this position. What reason is there to believe this? I’m sure you are aware of the fact that the biological entity that is you was once an embryo- that you went through teh embryonic stage, fetal stage, infant stage, child stage, etc.
“Any other definition thereof is incorrect, illogical and tainted with religious claptrap.”
Again, please provide a reason why life begins at childbirth rather than simply assert it and throw in words like “illogical” and “claptrap.”
“Your argument fails because you believe that some barely-connected, unmyelinated neurons which have never experienced the world are sentient.”
I never made this argument at all, so I don’t know where this is coming from. Again, I do not base my valuing of the unborn on sentience. I base it on what it is, which is a human being. It is an integrated whole who, given the proper nourishment and environment, will grow and develop through all stages of life. It is self-directed in the sense that its growth comes from within, not through some outside force putting it together like a car.
“This is a belief, Robert, NOT a fact. And it will never be a fact because abortion will never be criminalized”
See this is interesting now… are you claiming that if it was criminalized, then it would become a fact? Is the ontological status of the embryo determined by teh law?
“A fetus does NOT satisfy criteria for homicide in the Model Penal Code. ”
Steve, you must know why this argument means nothing to me. Of course this is true, but I am not arguing from a legal point of view. I am arguing, and I assume others are, from the point of view of moral realism- that is, that there really are objective moral values out there which transcend humanity and it is our job to discover them. Thus, what is moral is not determined by law. If you would like to discuss that, I would be happy to do so as well, but I think the position of moral realism is one that can easily be assumed to be believe by all unless otherwise stated. Take care.
http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/why_being_anti_choice_is_misogynist_period/
his column is a regurgitation of the same talking points that Jill “Chicago hospitals deliver babies and then stab them in the head with scissors, I swear, I totally saw it, why would I lie just because I’m a wild-eyed ideologue nutbar?” Stanek is pushing
Didn’t have to read any further than this comment to remind myself that Amanda Marcotte’s straw men (and this is a biggie) and rants are only popular because people are prone to stopping and staring at car accidents and train wrecks.
Women will still have abortions even if they are illegal. They will just have unsafe ones that put their lives and raise the chances of them dying during the procedure.
Making abortion illegal doesn’t save the fetus’ life – it’ll just raise the risk of the mom dying. You’re not saving a life by making abortion illegal but rather running the risk of ending two lives. Do you really want that on your hands? I’m sure a sister will miss her sister more than her unknown neice. A husband will probably miss his soulmate that he’s know for 20 years over a fetus he’s known for two months. An 8 year old will miss his mom more than a sibling that he never knew about.
Making abortions illegal do not stop them – so what is your goal? To have more lives end?
Some women regret their abortions, some don’t. Some are sad, others are relieved. Just because you feel regret over your choice that you got to make doesn’t mean all women do nor are they wrong if they don’t.
Futher, why do you get to enjoy the right to chose but can’t let other women make that same choice?
MTV has aired about 35 hours worth of women who have kept or chosen adoption through it’s Teen Mom and 16 & Pregnant shows alone. Yet, when they air a 30 minute pro-choice episode, they’re being one sided?
Hi Chelle.
“Women will still have abortions even if they are illegal. They will just have unsafe ones that put their lives and raise the chances of them dying during the procedure.”
The pro-life claim is that abortion is the taking of an innocent human life. Thus your argument is that if people will hurt themselves trying to kill a certain class of people, we should make it legal to kill that certain class of people to reduce the risk of teh original class of people hurting themselves. Is this really a moral principle that you are willing to defend? If a class of people X wishes to kill a class of people Y and having a “professional” kill the people in class Y will reduce the risk to the class of people in X, then it should be morally permissible to kill people in class Y? Or do you not consider the unborn to be persons? So that is the real question then, isn’t it?
“Making abortion illegal doesn’t save the fetus’ life”
Sure it does. Saying you legally can’t kill someone means that they won’t be killed legally.
Hola Bobby,
Yes, the real question in the abortion debate is what qualifies a person as a person. I’m not going to argue that cells aren’t living, since embryos, cancer and eyes are all living cells. I’m not going to argue that it’s not a life either – but so are animals and we eat those.
No, I don’t consider the unborns to be people and neither does science. They’re considered living but not people.
Therefore, we have to define what a person is. Since we can argue forever and never reach an answer, the most acceptable defination is a person is a human being that can survice independent of any one person. An embryo/fetus is not a person because it needs a specific person in order to survice. A baby is a person because a baby can be given to any one and cared for.
Therefore, you can’t compare aborting an embryo/fetus that can’t live on it’s own to killing a group of people. Two different things.
And I’ll cut you off at the pass: a fetus in the third term may be able to survice outside of its mother. However, third term abortions are illegal, rare and only done when the mother’s life at stake.
It’s illegal to smoke pot, yet that happens every day. People do illegal things and abortion, if made illegal, will be one of those things. Making abortion illegal does not detur women from having them. They just end up having unsafe abortions since only legal abortions are regulated and they end up dying. When the women dies, the embryo/fetus dies as well. Therefore, two lives are loss instead of one.
Bottom line – be pro-choice and save a life, be anti-choice and risk killing two.
By the way, if everyone here considers women that have chosen abortions to be murderers, why aren’t the anti-choice women here that have had abortions suggesting that they, themselves, should be in jail with other murderers?
Thanks for the response, Chelle.
“Since we can argue forever and never reach an answer, the most acceptable defination is a person is a human being that can survice independent of any one person. An embryo/fetus is not a person because it needs a specific person in order to survice. A baby is a person because a baby can be given to any one and cared for.”
I would strongly disagree with this. For what is it about teh fact that someone can survive independent of any one person constitute dignity and moral worth upon them? In other words, what makes you and me and a toddler valuable? Is it the fact that they are a thing that can survive without another person? No, they are valuable because of what they are intrinsically. In fact, this definition will change depending on our technology. Many years ago, a 30 week old fetus would not be considered a person according to your definition and hence, a D & X abortion would be morally acceptable. However, according to your definition above, at this point in time, a 30 week old fetus could NOT be killed by D & X since it can survive outside the body of another person. This leads to what I believe is in important feature of a good definition of a person- it should be independent of time, technology, and current circumstances. Some being in question should be a person 3000 years ago, today, and 3000 years from now.
“People do illegal things and abortion, if made illegal, will be one of those things. Making abortion illegal does not detur women from having them.”
I am not at all convinced of this. Certainly some will continue to do it just like, as you said, people still smoke pot. But I have every reason to believe that more people would smoke pot were it legal. In many people’s minds, legality implies that it is morally good. I remember looking at the PP website once and reading how abortion is a safe, legal procedure. For some reason, teh fact that it said “legal” really stuck out in my mind and it seemed to me that anyone reading that who was considering an abortion but ahd some reservations about whether or not it is morally acceptable would have their worries eased by reading that. Granted, this is simply a piece of “my opinion, anecdotal” evidence, but I do really think that just knowing that something is legal puts people’s minds at ease that it is also morally good.
“They just end up having unsafe abortions since only legal abortions are regulated and they end up dying. When the women dies, the embryo/fetus dies as well. Therefore, two lives are loss instead of one.”
Some will indeed, and that is horrible. I don’t want a single woman to die. But teh question is: why should the law be faulted when people decide to break it? The law is put in place for teh good of the people. The same argument can be made when it comes to anything like armed robbery or rape. I’m sure some people are hurt by tehir victims when they are attempting to rape them. Should when then say that since people will rape anyway and they may be hurt doing so taht we should make it legal? In other words, the one being raped needs to sit back and take it? Of course not, because rape is evil and should never be tolerated. This of course is not a perfect analogy, but I think it puts forward the problem with teh principle taht we should make an action legal if doing it by oneself might cause the person harm, regardless of the morality of teh original action in question.
BTW, Chelle, I would like to commend you for actually addressing the issue. This is much more than I can say for many of the above commentators. :)
“For what is it about teh fact that someone can survive independent of any one person constitute dignity and moral worth upon them? In other words, what makes you and me and a toddler valuable? Is it the fact that they are a thing that can survive without another person? No, they are valuable because of what they are intrinsically.”
Everything on this planet is made up of their own unique DNA strands. This does not stop us from cutting down trees or eatting animals.
What makes a person a person? What seperates us from other animals? Since you can’t bring religion/spirituality into the discussion (not everyone believes in the same thing) the only fact you really have to go on is that a baby, child, teenager, adult, can all live independent of one specific person. An embryo/fetus can’t. It is a parasite.
“Many years ago, a 30 week old fetus would not be considered a person according to your definition and hence, a D & X abortion would be morally acceptable.”
I’ve already pointed out that third term abortions are illegal except in cases where the mother’s life is at risk. I believe there’s only two doctors in this country that will actually perform them. Further, third term abortions, even when legal, made up such a small portion of abortions. Most are done in the first term, where the embryo/fetus can’t live independently without a specific woman.
“In many people’s minds, legality implies that it is morally good.”
Well, the only people in this country that can decree what is morally good across the board for everyone is the Supreme Court. And they’ve decided it’s morally good for women to make their own private, personal choice.
“I remember looking at the PP website once and reading how abortion is a safe, legal procedure. For some reason, teh fact that it said “legal” really stuck out in my mind and it seemed to me that anyone reading that who was considering an abortion but ahd some reservations about whether or not it is morally acceptable would have their worries eased by reading that. Granted, this is simply a piece of “my opinion, anecdotal” evidence, but I do really think that just knowing that something is legal puts people’s minds at ease that it is also morally good.”
Some people don’t know that abortion is legal. The key word in that sentence is safe not legal. Women don’t want to die and anti-choicers have pushed the myth that abortions aren’t safe. However, when regulated ie legal, abortions are one of the safest medical procedures out there.
I personally believe that if a person truely does not want an abortion, they will not get it. If a simple word can sway a woman into getting an abortion, then that woman wasn’t committed to carring out the pregnancy from the beginning.
“But teh question is: why should the law be faulted when people decide to break it? The law is put in place for teh good of the people.”
And the good of the people, according to our legal system, is that abortions are a personal, private decision that a woman should be able to make based on her own circumstances that only she fully understands.
“I’m sure some people are hurt by tehir victims when they are attempting to rape them. Should when then say that since people will rape anyway and they may be hurt doing so taht we should make it legal? In other words, the one being raped needs to sit back and take it? Of course not, because rape is evil and should never be tolerated. This of course is not a perfect analogy, but I think it puts forward the problem with teh principle taht we should make an action legal if doing it by oneself might cause the person harm, regardless of the morality of teh original action in question.”
Its an awful an analogy and very offensive. A rape victim is a person, an embryo/fetus is not.
70,000 women across the globe die each year from illegal abortions and these are just the ones we know about.
http://www.genderacrossborders.com/2009/10/19/70000-a-year-die-from-illegal-abortions/
Making abortion illegal does not detur women from getting them nor does it save embryos/fetuses. These 70,000 women are people who are now gone because they weren’t allowed to make a personal, private decision based on their own beliefs but rather on the beliefs other people.
BTW, Chelle, I would like to commend you for actually addressing the issue. This is much more than I can say for many of the above commentators
Thanks Bobby, but it’s a lot easier to make clear arguments when there’s no one calling me a murderer or telling me that I will regret killing my “child” just because they made a choice that they regret.
At least they got that choice, you know? Just because they regret doesn’t mean every woman does. Nor does that mean they have any right to take a way the choice from other women.
I ask again, if abortion is made illegal, are you comfortable putting these women in jail? Just because they regret it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be murderers under that law, you know?
Steve, who is the ghoul. You want women to spread their legs and have instruments shoved up into their bodies, forcibly yanking open their cervixes and dismembering their unborn children. You’re a ghoul if you support that.
And want to reiterate, who cares what you say anyhow? You don’t even know that an unborn baby is alive so who cares a flip what a knucklehead like you says.
Sorry Steve, but Roe V. Wade WILL be overturned. Women WILL finally get the real love and support that we deserve and stop being treated like sexual meat for the gratification of men. We will finally stop being told that if we get pregnant we have to “take care of it” by killing our beloved children. We will finally stop crying these bitter tears as we are maimed and abused for the monetary profit of the abortion industry. Its gonna happen Steve. Just watch.
Hi again Chelle.
“Everything on this planet is made up of their own unique DNA strands. This does not stop us from cutting down trees or eatting animals.”
I don’t think this was my argument. I am not one to say that just because something has its own DNA it is a person. Rather, that is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for being a human. I afford special rights to human beings because a human being has teh natural potential for rational, moral thought. The only reason I mention this is to differentiate between why I think humans should have certain rights but not other animals.
“What makes a person a person? What seperates us from other animals?”
As I mentioned above, it is teh natural potential taht we have for rational and moral thought, given to us by God, or evolution, or chance, or whatever. This fits, I believe, into any worldview. This is a view that coincides with our moral intuition which states that humans are unique as a species.
“Since you can’t bring religion/spirituality into the discussion (not everyone believes in the same thing) the only fact you really have to go on is that a baby, child, teenager, adult, can all live independent of one specific person. An embryo/fetus can’t.”
Well, I actually thought of this example after I posted before, but an embryo does live outside a woman’s womb in the case of frozen embryos “leftover” from IVF. Though they are in suspended animation, they are very much alive. Now on your worldview, the frozen embryo would be a person when it is created in a petri dish and frozen, lose its personhood when implanted into a woman, and then become a person again after it was viable. This seems couterintuative.
Now I don’t think you’re trying to do this, but a fetus by definition is an unborn insode the woman, and once it comes out and survives on its own, it is no longer a fetus. But teh fact remains that there simply does not seem to be a good reason to constitute personhood to a human being based only on whether or not they are able to survive outside of another person.
For consider another case. I don’t know if we have this kind of technology currently, but one can imagine a technology where I volunteer to give my body up to someone so taht tehy can live. Maybe something like I”m physically linked to them through tubs giving them my blood, and without it, they would die. Now I have volunteered to do this out of my own free will, but this human that is hooked up to me is completely dependent on me to live. In yoru understanding of what makes a person, it seems to me that this being who is hooked up to me loses his persnohood. The question then becomes what kind of being is he on a moral par with? Is this human who is hooked up to me teh same moral status as an animal, maybe a monkey or dog? Would I be morally justified in treating that human teh same way i treat a dog while he’s hooked up to me? In this scenario, this human seems to lose his personhood, and hence, it seems that we could treat him as a non-person.
“It is a parasite.”
Biologically this is certainly not teh case. A parasitic relationship is one between two different species and the law of biogenesis states that organisms produce after tehir own kind so that dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats, and humans beget humans. But i realize that your point is more subtle than that. If the unborn really is a parasite in the sense taht it is doing some sort of harm to the woman, then taht is the case in all pregnancies, not just unwanted ones. So every single one of us were once parasites. This is not at all teh case with preganncy, which is a natural process by which human beings begin their biological development.
“I’ve already pointed out that third term abortions are illegal except in cases where the mother’s life is at risk. I believe there’s only two doctors in this country that will actually perform them. Further, third term abortions, even when legal, made up such a small portion of abortions. Most are done in the first term, where the embryo/fetus can’t live independently without a specific woman.”
This was not my argument. I am not interested in what teh law says. I am talking morally. In your personhood theory, there would be nothing wrong with killing a 30 week old fetus 100 years ago, legal or not, but it would be immoral now. That is the point I was trying to make.
“Well, the only people in this country that can decree what is morally good across the board for everyone is the Supreme Court. And they’ve decided it’s morally good for women to make their own private, personal choice.”
Correct, and I am arguing that they are wrong. It is certainly logically possible for them to be wrong, and as you know, we have ahd many unjust laws in this country such as Dred Scott.
“I personally believe that if a person truely does not want an abortion, they will not get it. If a simple word can sway a woman into getting an abortion, then that woman wasn’t committed to carring out the pregnancy from the beginning.”
Well, I probably shouldn’t get too much deeper into this. I don’t know enough about how people think and what their reactions would be other then my speculation.
“And the good of the people, according to our legal system, is that abortions are a personal, private decision that a woman should be able to make based on her own circumstances that only she fully understands.”
I realize that’s what teh law says, but that doesn’t address the claim that abortion is the unjust taking of a human life. If abortion kills a person, there can be no government neutrality on teh question. But of course, this hinges on teh question of whether or not the unborn is a person, as we are discussing above.
“Its an awful an analogy and very offensive. A rape victim is a person, an embryo/fetus is not.”
You haven’t really said why though. I’m not at all seeing a good reason to hold to your definition of a person, and without that the above quoted statement isn’t terribly compelling.
“70,000 women across the globe die each year from illegal abortions and these are just the ones we know about.”
So you linked to an article that talked about teh study that teh Guttmacher Institute did. I am certainly not one to blow off studies because of who did them. Unfortunately the article does not link to the actual paper of teh study. But I believe that this is the same study that I looked at a couple years ago when it came out. I remember the 70000 number and I looked carefully through the study to see exactly what the methodology for how Guttmacher arrived at that number. In fact, I was able to find teh old post from Jill’s blog on which I critiqued this. I will post my text below along with a link:
“BTW, here is an example of the kind of scholarship we’ve all come to expect from Guttmacher. On page 32, they state “Globally, an estimated 70,000 women die every year as a
result of unsafe abortions,137” where the number 137 refers to reference number 137 found at the end of the article. This reference should presumably tell us the methodology by which the author arrived at the number 70,000. Here is what reference 137 says:
137. Ĺhman E, estimate for 2005, personal communication,
Feb. 3, 2009.
Personal Communication. WOW. Now this is not an uncommon thing to do in articles, but it is usually something trivial- not an integral part of the research paper. I thought that the purpose of “peer-reviewed” articles was so that other scientists could repeat your experiments and test your methodologies and see if they arrive at the same conclusion. In this case, though, we have NO IDEA where the number 70000 came from. No one can look at the methodology to see if it was derived from reasonable estimates.”
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/10/bubble_zone_bac.html
Thus, as a mathematician, I find the 70000 number very problematic.
But really, that is neither here no there, only a small critique of the junk-science that is Gutmacher. The point remains that just because someone can hurt themselves doing an action does not mean that we should make that action illegal. Any woman who dies because of an abortion, legal or illegal, is horrid. But it does not justify acceptance of killing people… that is, unless the being in question is not a person…
“Making abortion illegal does not detur women from getting them nor does it save embryos/fetuses. These 70,000 women are people who are now gone because they weren’t allowed to make a personal, private decision based on their own beliefs but rather on the beliefs other people.”
Again, Chelle, this argument is question begging. It assumes taht the decision to have an abortion is not teh decision to unjustly take the life of an innocent human being by hiding what is really going on with words like “person” “private” and “decision.” If the unborn are not persons, tehn great, have all teh abortions one wants, government funded abortions, no problem. I’d be all for abortions then.
So let me make sure I understand what you are saying here. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the unborn are persons just like you and me and that indeed, abortion is murder. Are you still in favor of legal abortion based on the fact that women die from illegal abortions, even though it is murder? Because that seems to be the thrust of your argument here. If you can convince me that teh unborn are not persons, then this argument about women dying is moot. But if you can’t, you still seem to want to try and convince me that abortions should be legal. But if I really think that abortion is murder, is it really a compelling argument that I should support legal murder because some women hurt themselves trying to murder? I know that sounds harsh and flippant, but that is essentially what you’re trying to convince me of with this argument.
“Thanks Bobby, but it’s a lot easier to make clear arguments when there’s no one calling me a murderer or telling me that I will regret killing my “child” just because they made a choice that they regret.”
:)
“I ask again, if abortion is made illegal, are you comfortable putting these women in jail? Just because they regret it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be murderers under that law, you know?”
It depends. Like all acts of killing, it depends on the circumstances, the knowledge of teh individual, and a whole host of other factors. Like any instance where we find out that someone kills someoen else, it must be judged on a case by case basis with the competent people looking into teh facts and details of teh matter. But in theory, no, I do not have a problem with punishments for those who procure and participate in an abortion. Certainly the abortionist is a priori much more guilty than the woman procuring an abortion.
Also, as far as women who have had abortions, isn’t there some law about not being able to be punished for something you did when it was legal AFTER it becomes illegal? If not, I think a law like that makes sense.
Okay, take care Chelle.
Hi Steve. Thanks for the kind response.
“Then explain why, in answer to another post, where Chelle wisely pointed out…”
Sure. My point to you was that morality should NOT be DETERMINED by what is legal. But my point to to Chelle was that the LAW should REFLECT what is moral. That is a very important difference, and one that I believe anyone giving my posts a fair reading can see. What it seemed to me that you were saying (and perhaps I was misreading you, but that’s a moot point) was that what is legal is moral. That I disagree with. But what I advocated for with Chelle is that the law should reflect what is moral. The law follows from what is moral, not teh other way around.
Ghouls.
Don’t ghouls prey on other human beings? I think that probably fits the pro-abortion agenda slightly more than the pro-life one, Steve. :D
You don’t care about reason or logic or ethics or even morality, for that matter. It is ALL about control, about opinion, your opinion and your opinion only. You want to drive our society back to the dark days of back-alley, coat-hangar abortions. At any cost. And that is repugnant.
I’m not going to bother to go thru your responses. They are riddled with puerile circular reasoning and just downright fatuity. Sorry, there’s no other word for it. Your bronze-age ideology has blinded you to any attempt at modern reasoning or enlightenment.
This is hilarious!! You won’t respond to any of the arguments? LOL!! I can’t say I’m actually surprised, I just find it funny.
So if you got your wish and a fetus was mis-defined as human being
Is a human fetus human?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act
There would be lots & lots of executions of women and that would suit you inflictors of cruelty just fine. Wouldn’t it.
Oh NOOO, you’ve found us out! We just want a whole bunch of dead women to add to the 50 million dead children. I can’t believe you figured out our big secret.
You can namecall and patronize all you want, but it really only makes you look like a pompous, heartless jerk. I guess we “self-righteous moralists” are in good company.
Oh also Chelle, I’m pretty sure your article with the 70000 is the same as the one I’m thinking of based on the dates matching up. If you want to see the actual article that Guttmacher put out, I link to it (as a pdf) in the link I posted in my above post to you. Just google the name “Bobby Bambino” and you should find teh post where I link to it, and you can see for yourself exactly how they derived that number.
Finally, I wanted to tell you that you remind me of another poster we have here at Jill’s, Alexandra. I think you’d really like her. She is really nice and sweet. If you continue to follow Jill’s, you’ll see some of her stuff.
Oops, I mean “cntrl F Bobby Bambino” not “google Bobby Bambino.”