Breaking: NY Planned Parenthood supervisor caught in Live Action sex trafficking sting
This morning Live Action released its 6th investigative video showing employees at Planned Parenthood abortion clinics around the country, this one in the Bronx, NY, aiding and abetting someone who they thought was a sex trafficker get abortions, STD treatments, and contraceptives for sex slaves as young as 14 and/or in the country illegally.
In this video, a PP staffer goes so far as to tell the “pimp” he can post as a guardian to get taxpayer funded services for his minor prostitutes.
The video additionally shows a PP Supervisor also willing to assist the “pimp.”…
When told by a man posing as a pimp that he needs help with girls he manages as young as 14-15 years old, a Bronx NY, PP staffer is unphased and offers to go one better: “We see people as young as 13 – everything is totally confidential.”
New undercover Live Action footage from inside this PP clinic shows for the first time a PP supervisor/practitioner willing to assist a man posing as a pimp, even offering guidance on how the pimp’s underage girls can get insurance through tax payer funded programs to pay for abortions and other services even if the underage girls that are not U.S. citizens.
PP Supervisor/Practitioner: I’m one of the practitioners here.
Pimp: Oh, ok. I was wondering, uh, do you have a moment?
PP Supervisor/Practitioner: Mhm
Pimp: I was wondering, um, so like is this still confidential?
PP Supervisor/Practitioner: Yeah.
Pimp: We’re involved in sex work –
PP Supervisor/Practitioner: Mhm.
Pimp: We have some girls that are kind of young like, 14, 15, that they might need an abortion –
Planned Parenthood Supervisor/Practitioner: Mhm.
Pimp: And, how is the best way should they could go about it?
PP Supervisor/Practitioner: They just show up, and set up an appointment. Do they have insurance?
Pimp: They don’t have insurance, some don’t even speak that good of English ‘cause you know, they just got here.
PP Supervisor/Practitioner: Right. So we have an interpretation phone, so if they don’t speak Spanish that’s not a problem. I mean if they don’t speak English that’s not a problem cause we can have an interpreter –
This latest reel of footage uncovers what organization President, Lila Rose, calls an “institutional crisis in which PP is willing to assist sex trafficking and exploitation of minors and young women.”
Live Action has released numerous videos over the past three years offering compounding evidence that Rose says, “unequivocally shows that PP is unsafe and puts underage girls and young women in harm’s way.”
“PP has shown repeatedly for the past three years of our investigation that they are willing to aid and abet the sexual exploitation of minors and young girls, even girls as young as 13 and here illegally, all under a sick code of ‘confidentiality.’ For PP, this ‘confidentiality’ supersedes a zero tolerance for sex trafficking and exploitation of minors and young women,” Rose said.
Last week, Live Action released raw footage of five PP clinics, one in New Jersey and four in Virginia, all revealing employees willing to counsel a self-identified sex-trafficker on how to obtain STD testing, birth control and abortions for underage girls that he “manages” in “sex work.”
“Today, we are making full footage and transcripts available to NY law enforcement officials and we are calling upon NY Attorney General Eric Schneiderman to launch a formal investigation as has been done in NJ by Attorney General Paula Dow. This footage shows that underage girls and young women are at potentially grave risk when they walk into PP clinics,” Rose said.
Additional findings from the footage:
Prostitute: They just came over, they’re workin’ with us, and we’re helpin’ them out –
PP Staffer: Mhm
Prostitute: Just keeping them safe.
Pimp: Could we even sign off as guardians? Could we even sign off as a guardian, is that even possible?
PP Staffer: If you were writing the support letter, yeah, you could say –
Prostitute: Oh good
PP Staffer: That you take care of them, you support them.
Pimp: Cool!
PP Staffer: But nothing here, like, our patients, we don’t ask for guardian’s signature. Everything is the patient. Like a 13-year-old could come in and get the services she needed, by herself.
Pimp: So, how would you recommend for them best to do it? Cause we don’t want them getting confused or what not, and it’s kind of a sensitive subject, so we don’t want you know, them saying the wrong thing, you know getting refused or turned away, so how would you suggest they go about you know being able to get the access even in spite of what they do, you know?
PP Staffer: Yeah, like, like I said everything’s confidential, they don’t have to tell anybody what it is that they do when they make the an appointment, it’s just gonna be between them and the Physician they see.
Live Action has previously released more than a dozen hidden camera videos from ten states. This body of visual evidence shows several alarming patterns of illegal PP activities including cover-up of sexual abuse of minors, the skirting of parental consent laws, citing unscientific and fabricated medical information to manipulate women to have abortions, and PP’s willingness to accept donations earmarked to abort African-American babies.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I am all in favor of these videos being released, but I see some problems.
First, the media are not giving this the play that it deserves, because I think they are trying to protect Planned Parenthood.
Second, the Senate is still controlled by the Democrats, who are controlled by the abortionists, so I do not know if we can even get Planned Parenthood definanced. A year from now PP will still be killing human beings and likely receiving hundreds of millions of dollars of your money.
Third, the goal is to stop prenatal homicide, not make PP look bad. Almost everyone opposes child sex trafficking, but not everyone opposes child killing. The goal should be to convince people that killing unborn children is a crime and should be prohibited. Otherwise, you show corruption and bad practices at PP and they promise to develop safeguards to prevent this in the future and then what have you gained? The killing of over 300,000 children a year would continue unabated.
What is needed is for Lila Rose and the major leaders of the unborn human rights movement to issue a strong condemnation of Planned Parenthood for killing over 300,000 human beings every year and tie this into their sleazy behavior in these videos.
We must remember the real crime is the abortionists’ killing of large numbers of unborn human beings every year, rather than the awful institutional defects which have been revealed by the videos, as bad as those defects are.
We must always keep all our energy focused on convincing the people that killing human beings in the unborn stage is a crime which must be prohibited.
Lila has a great strategy here when it comes to the timing of releasing these. First she announced there were videos, and PP squirmed. Then she released the first video and they tried to dismiss it as an anamoly. The second one was released and they looked like they were either stupid or part of a cover-up. Now this one is out and the fact that the organization will lie and break laws to perform abortions and cover up the sexual trafficking of children is starkly obvious.
wonder how Jessica Lappin and Christine Quinn will feel about this…
Joe, you are in the right in what you say, but we live in a fallen world where huge numbers of people couldn’t care less about hundreds of thousands of unborn children being killed. They’re more concerned about the latest episode of Jersey Shore or about which team Cliff Lee is going to play for next baseball season.
For over 30 years we have tried to tell and show people the evil of abortion, and they just don’t care. But people do care about prostitution, because it’s titillating. Like Michael Savage says, most people care about “sports and porn”, but little else. So if these videos showing Planned Parenthood as an unlawful organization aiding pimps and prostitutes with their criminal acts get people to actually pay attention, it’s possible that there will be enough pressure on Congress (at least the House of Representatives) to stop funding Planned Parenthood, which is the first step to putting them out of business.
Makes me worried that Lila Rose has received death threats. The pro-aborts are crazy and violent! They are threatening the life of this beautiful young woman because THEY were caught with their pants down so to speak.
Imagine being a 14 (or any age) year old girl and being forced to be a prostitute. You’ve lost your family that might not care anyway. No friends to help you. You finally end up in a medical facility, praying that the adults there will see what’s happening and help you. You say what you’re told to say so you aren’t beaten later. You then realize that the personnel at PP KNOW you are a sex slave and instead of helping you escape, they abuse you and return you to the hell you’re living. There is no hope…
Will THIS GUY get investigated? (NSFW: contains language and sexual threat) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPupTS4gkr0
Cranky, my Hindu pals might say that Margaret Sanger has been reincarnated as that Nutjob.
Joe, while your points are valid, Let LiveAction do their thing. You want to connect the dots, then do it. PP is sucking up our tax dollars on a federal, state, and local level. The sooner that ends, the better. Kill the body of the hydra and the heads will fall.
Those who are posing as sex traffickers are lying, Isn’t lying, even for a good reason, a sin?
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm
Well CC,
Police officers and federal agents working undercover lie. Is this a sin?
Oh yeah, CC, of COURSE people should tell the truth at all costs because lying is a sin. The axe murderer at your front door is screaming for his estranged wife? Let him right in and tell him she’s hiding in your basement.
Ninek 9:25am
Good point as to what brings down PP. Who cares if it was the IRS that finally put Al Capone in prison so long as he was finally in prison?
“Isn’t lying, even for a good reason, a sin?”
Perhaps this isn’t teh best time to bring this up, but I actually sympathize with CC’s point here. It is difficult for me to see how lying to bring about a good can be moral. I realize there are passages in the bible that seem to condone lying in certain cases (Abraham talking about whether Sara was his wife or not, Rahab, etc.) but on the other hand Jesus has very strong words against those who speak against the truth. I’m not positive how to reconcile them, but I do lean more towards the idea that lying (defined properly, excluding things like acting and sarcasm etc) is always and everywhere disordered, no matter what good may come out of it. If we start arguing that “look at the good that we have in mind by lying” then it seems consequentialist, which is certainly not a Christian ideal. I don’t know. I’d be interested in reading some more thoughts on this because indeed, while it is wonderful that PP is being exposed for the evil organization taht they are, it’s hard for me to reconcile the means by which it is done, and more generally, lying to bring about any good. I’m happy to hear any thoughts.
CC,
I wasn’t going to comment, but I think that you can do better than this. Scratch that: I know that you can come up with better than that.
I’m going to spend my snow day (Yes! Today is a snow day!) researching just what happened here. I don’t want to think of anyone as being supportive of sex trafficking- so I’ll do some research on this to get my facts straight. Ugh. How awful.
Hi Vannah,
“I’ll do some research on this to get my facts straight”.
Always a wise first move.
Oooh, I wish I had a snow day. (Here in Minnesota, you’re more likely to get a day off because the pipes froze.) Good use of time, Vannah. :)
In order to catch people/groups involved in predatory behavior, many people go in as undercover investigators. Many pose as underage teens online to catch child predators. Many pose as “johns” to catch prostitution rings.
I don’t see how this is any different, and I fully support it.
I don’t see how anyone who is anti-Christian and anti-Church and has zero understanding of Scripture anyway should be derailing this thread with the most lame comment ever and causing others to doubt the work of Lila Rose.
Thank you, Lila. I, for one, support these videos.
me too – preach it Kel!
Yikes, okay, sorry.
Bobby, my comment was directed more at CC than it was at you. You are most definitely entitled to your opinion. I am just frustrated with the constant derailing of threads by commenters like CC who really don’t give a rat’s butt that PP is doing anything illegal and only has a problem that anyone dared to go and attempt to expose the corrupt system of PP.
CC bashes Christians and religion here continually and only brings up tenets of religion when she believes she can twist them to make Christians look bad, since obviously she believes lying is far worse than slaughtering babies by the millions.
We covered lying in the Bible on another thread.
CC, you asked some questions on Jivin 2/7/11 links, so let’s hear some answers to those. For example, you think that the Catholic church doesn’t care about women because we don’t condone killing viable, healthy babies or cutting short a healthy pregnancy. You said that you guessed the Church likes dead women.
CC, why doesn’t Planned Parenthood help women with ectopic pregnancies? Hm?? I guess they like dead women.
Why doesn’t PP have delivery rooms for healthy babies to be born to healthy women who want them? Why not CC? Oh, because PP only likes dead babies.
CC, why do you worship at the Temple of Cecile, but you look down on everyone else’s worship? Do you also get on Buddhist blogs and harp on them for being vegetarian and “only caring about animals”? Why not CC? If you worship Planned Dead Babyhood, why can’t everyone else also enjoy their religious freedom? Why not CC? Why don’t you answer, CC??
Bobby, I think I understand what you’re getting at, and I admit there can be a slippery-slope in using “lies” to obtain the truth. Probably not the best way to uncover evil.
But then again, what Mary said is true: What about undercover agents and police officers? Their work is so important and lives depend on it; yet in reality, they are lying. Do we consider that sinful? Hmmm….
Another question I’ve had for the last week is, why is Drudge ignoring this story? I haven’t seen a single mention of any of these videos. Anyone know why?
Let’s ask Drudge.
If you worship Planned Dead Babyhood, why can’t everyone else also enjoy their religious freedom? Why not CC? Why don’t you answer, CC??
You don’t have the right to impose your relgious views on the reproductive rights of women.
Why doesn’t PP have delivery rooms for healthy babies to be born to healthy women who want them? Why not CC? Oh, because PP only likes dead babies
OH please, of all the ridiculous statement that I’ve heard from the “pro-life” movement, that one is probably the worst. PP doesn’t “like dead babies” (and fetuses aren’t “babies” until they’re born) – they like healthy women who are able to make the choice as to whether or not they want to reproduce and if they don’t want that, PP is there to provide them with contraception and abortions – as well as other vital gynecological care that you guys totally ignore. Abortions constitute only a small percentage of what PP does. Perhaps you like women with untreated STD’s and other reproductive organ problems? I know that you do like women burdened with children they don’t want – especially poor women whose quality of life would be dramatically reduced if PP’s funding gets cut. Yeah, you really love women.
And BTW, this latest video is a bunch of junk. Nothing inappropriate or illegal went on. PP, like an other agency that serves the public, is required to provide their clients with information which includes guardianship requirements.
“In the video, filmed at a New York City clinic, two individuals tell clinic employees that they are involved in sex work and ask questions about documentation, making appointments, insurance and guardianship requirements for services for teenage girls who do not speak fluent English.Planned Parenthood responded to the latest release saying the conversation as portrayed is not accurate and defended the actions of its employees.”Unlike other publicized tapes, the hoax patients in New York were not able to get beyond the reception desk for private consultation,” said a statement from Planned Parenthood of New York City.”Like other encounters that have been recently publicized in Virginia, our staff responded professionally to questions, discussed these encounters with management, and provided a report to the FBI…”
Whine all you want about these what these highly edited videos present but the fact is that PP contacted law enforcement. There is clearly a political agenda behind Ms. Rose (former crony of the discredited and very misogynistic James O’Keefe) but our folks are prepared for it.
About the ethics of “lying” —
Sometimes lying is the morally right thing to do. When the Nazi’s enter your home to see if you or your neighbor are hiding Jews, you must lie. No one questions the ethics of Jan and Miep Gies during the years of lies they had to perpetrate while hiding Anne Frank’s family.
This undercover work is also not “lying,” in any sinful sense. There is no “false witness.” LiveAction is merely presenting Planned Parenthood with a scenario, and reporting truthfully on how they react.
If LiveAction were doctoring the videos, to make Planned Parenthood seem worse than they are…. that would be the sort of lying that every Christian and Pro-Lifer should condemn.
there is nothing unethical about LiveAction’s methods thus far. They are bravely exposing the abuse and injustice. We should support their good work.
Three anti-abortion lies right here.
–>3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
CC,
You’ve got to be joking. Those arguments are sooooo tired.
Now we’re on the sixth video where PP is caught enabling sex slavery.
Gone is the ‘isolated incident’ excuse.
Gone is the ‘highly edited’ excuse when Live Action has released full videos, easy to find for anyone with the desire to do so.
Gone is the ‘they called the FBI’ coverup when PP circled the corporate wagons and called national authorities to report the sting. With the exception of one clinic so far, there is no evidence that local authorities were contacted, as is the point behind mandated reporting.
We have before us an institutional coverup of enabling the abuse of minors. Clear evidence of aiding criminal activity and doing *nothing* to release young women from their pimps/slavers.
The last gasp from desperate PP defenders? “This involved lying!”. That should
be the quote of the day!! But it needn’t derail this thread, and it won’t derail investigation of PP.
Where local authorities are wiling and have enough resources, Live Action has
given them good reason to probe farther and reminded them of the necessity of investigative journalism and undercover operations to bring justice to girls (and boys) trapped in the sex slave trade.
CC, you did NOT answer the question: Why does Planned Parenthood NOT deliver live babies to mothers who have decided to give birth? Why does Planned Parenthood only want DEAD BABIES?? Answer the question CC. Why does an organization that calls itself Planned Parenthood (calls itself that, I didn’t name it) ONLY KILL BABIES? Why do they not offer prenatal care? Why do women who say they’ve gone there for prenatal care come here and tell us that they had to stop going in because PP only wants to sell them an abortion? Why CC??? Why??? YOU DIDN’T ANSWER. Next time, focus and don’t deflect with your BS about STD’s. ANSWER CC!!
With the exception of one clinic so far, there is no evidence that local authorities were contacted, as is the point behind mandated reporting.
On what do you base your assertion that “there is no evidence.” Planned Parenthood has clearly stated that the authorities were contacted. Oh, right, you don’t believe them.
And “institutional coverup” – based on edited videos of how many PP’s out of how many in the US?
BTW, how many prosecutions of PP have ensued from these videos?
Again – this new video is more of nothing. The workers did everything appropriately. What were they supposed to do – make a “citizens arrest?” Actually, it’s a good thing for Lila’s crew that they didn’t because the “john” would have been exposed immediately as a liar.
Bobby, I understand what you’ve been saying, but I think that lying in order to save lives is acceptable.
I somehow don’t think think that Corrie Ten Boom, who hid Jews during the Holocaust, will be severely condemned for lying. She saved hundreds of lived and risked her own life (she was taken to a Concentration Camp and lost her whole family) in order to save the lives of a people group that society held in derision.
Evil is secretive and often will masquerade as good (Planned Parenthood, Nazis, North Korea, etc) and will go through great lengths to hide the evil that is being done. I’m sorry, but we cannot simply sit by and do nothing because we may dirty our hands by lying.
Lila Rose and anyone who takes a stand against abortion and works to uncover evil is doing a good thing.
How many women walk out of a Planned Parenthood with a newborn cradled in their arms? How many baby pictures does Planned Parenthood have on it’s bulletin boards? If my ob/gyn also treats STD’s, why does she have baby pictures and thank you cards on her wall? Why doesn’t PP ever deliver live babies? Why not CC?
again – mandatory reporting – it’s the law. It is supposed to be done immediately and let the authorities sort things out.
I thought we were supposed to protect and care about women – even underage sex workers.
Remember the victims: of abortion, sex trafficking, of botched abortions… oh – but out-of-sight must mean out-of-mind.
(and fetuses aren’t “babies” until they’re born)
So fetuses aren’t human beings? Then what are women pregnant with for 9 months? I didn’t see anything but a human being on the ultrasound when I got ultrasounds done while I was pregnant. I had several ultrasounds done when I was pregnant. None of them rendered pictures of anything other than a human being. I didn’t see just a “mound of tissues” and I didn’t see any other being except human. I have video of one of my ultrasounds that proves what I’m saying. I heard a heartbeat VERY early on in my pregnancy.
The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary doesn’t say the “Fetus” isn’t human–it says it’s “an unhatched/unborn being, specifically human..”: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus (the emphasis is theirs).
The Oxford Online Dictionary defines “fetus” this way: “an unborn offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.” http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1246780#m_en_us1246780
In my Pocket American Thesaurus Second Edition It says under “unborn” “adjective: embryonic fetal, in utero; expected.” (The sentence they give as an example is this: “Smoking can be harmful to your unborn child.”). (Copyright 2008 by Oxford University Press–First Edition 2002, Second Edition 2008) You can find Second and Third Editions here: http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?WRD=pocket+oxford+american+thesaurus&page=index&prod=univ&choice=allproducts&query=Pocket+Oxford+American+Thesaurus&flag=False&ugrp=2
regarding pre-natal care: Too much money – our local PP used to birth babies of poor women and give good care with nurse-midwives. No more — not enough $ to the bottom line. But they kept on accepting $ from United Way for the birthing of babies, even after they stopped the program.
Did PP give the donated $ back to United Way? LOL. no – of course not.
“Why does Planned Parenthood NOT deliver live babies to mothers who have decided to give birth”
That’s not their *mission. They are not in the “maternity” business. Why should thay be involved in childbirth and pre/post natal care. Not all gynocologists are involved in obstetrics. The community health centers, which don’t do abortions, provide the kind of care that you think PP should be doing – but they don’t. Bottom line.
I’ve answered and I’m not going to continue to play your silly game any more. Your hissy fit is getting tedious and I do seem to be agitating you. Once again, I don’t care what people have “told” you because that’s anecdotal and serves to validate your anti-choice position.
*Planned Parenthood believes in the fundamental right of each individual, throughout the world, to manage his or her fertility, regardless of the individual’s income, marital status, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, national origin, or residence. We believe that respect and value for diversity in all aspects of our organization are essential to our well-being. We believe that reproductive self-determination must be voluntary and preserve the individual’s right to privacy. We further believe that such self-determination will contribute to an enhancement of the quality of life and strong family relationships.
Based on these beliefs, and reflecting the diverse communities within which we operate, the mission of Planned Parenthood is
to provide comprehensive reproductive and complementary health care services in settings which preserve and protect the essential privacy and rights of each individual
to advocate public policies which guarantee these rights and ensure access to such services
to provide educational programs which enhance understanding of individual and societal implications of human sexuality
to promote research and the advancement of technology in reproductive health care and encourage understanding of their inherent bioethical, behavioral, and social implications
And Ninek – your constant refrain about how PP “wants dead babies” is both simplistic and ridiculous. At least some of the other posters here have a more – ah – intellectual approach.
and fetuses aren’t “babies” until they’re born
You might want to check out the biology books which are used in the schools. Fetuses are not referred to as “babies.”
Sounds nice – but evil is evil. period. Too bad people bought into the talking points of PP. That is how good people get sucked in.
Notice they do not say the word ‘abortion’ in that talking point. Why not? Isn’t abortion totally acceptable? Nobel? Honorable? a non-money-maker? No on all 4 points. They are clever with their gobbledygook.
Confuse, disclaimer, point in another direction, don’t follow the money and don’t follow reality.
PP – the world LARGEST provider of abortions in the world. And every abortion ends a pre-born human life.
Why do you think they do not shout that from the roof-tops? Because they do not want to remind people of what they do. And do it well, they do. Ca-ching all the way to the bank.
Fetus means ‘little one’ and no biology books would say that pre-born ‘little one’ was from a species other than human. Science is science.
Oh – and laughable about family relationships – abortionists who worked for PP acknowledge that one of the main goals was to try to separate girls from their families on these issues, so that the secrecy would bring a young girl to PP instead of parents (for the most part). it’s part of the game to get at least one abortion from every girl. See blood money (DVD). You will hear their own voices proclaim it so.
A fine mess we have made for ourselves. And our young and the women are paying for it. Remember – it’s all about the women and the babies. I wish PP wanted them both whole and thriving.
no biology books would say that pre-born ‘little one’ was from a species other than human
Species human – obviously. “Person” – no. “Baby” – definitely not.
And the texts that describe abortion do not claim it is “killing” a “human being.” The language is much more clinical and scientific.
Sample
Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2091
You might want to know that in the definition of “baby,” however, is a reference to the unborn child or fetus.
http://www.answers.com/topic/manchester-mark-i
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&client=firefox-a&hs=iYt&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&defl=en&q=define:baby&sa=X&ei=05FRTf3yHoL78Aa73_W0Cg&ved=0CBMQkAE
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby
The dictionaries know they’re the same thing. Logical people with common sense know fetuses and babies are the same thing. It is nothing short of psychological denial to continue insisting “they’re not babies.” What are they, then? Are they not young members of the human species? Is that not how one would define “baby?” A fetus is a baby; a baby in utero from 8 weeks on is a fetus. Potato, Po-TAH-to.
What’s the inherent difference between a 30 week fetus in-utero and a 30 week fetus who had his spine severed by Gosnell in his clinic?
– abortionists who worked for PP acknowledge that one of the main goals was to try to separate girls from their families on these issues,
Source?
If it makes you feel better to say a 22, 12, 35, 40 week unborn human is not a baby or a person, you can continue in that belief. It’s just as discriminatory and arbitrary a belief as others through the ages about the Jews and Blacks, among others. It makes it easier to commit injustice when we can dehumanize the victims of that injustice, no?
The dictionaries know they’re the same thing
Rather than citing dictionaries, we should be citing science texts.
SOURCE: Blood Money If you’d like some help identifying the women in the film, I’m sure others will chime in, but among them are Carol Everett, Norma McCorvey (you’d know her as Roe of Roe v. Wade) and Angele, mother of baby Rowan.
It makes it easier to commit injustice when we can dehumanize the victims of that injustice, no
Funny how the majority of those who identify as Reformed Jews (and many conservative and some orthodox – see Joe Liebermann) are pro-choice.
Sounds nice – but evil is evil.
Joyfromillinois,
My thoughts exactly. This is probably obvious but I’ll say it anyways…..Pro-aborts accuse pro-lifers of trying to impose their religion on others, but there’s much more to it than that. The abortion industry covers up a multitude of sins. It’s not just poor women and women who can’t handle a fifth child who are getting abortions (as pro-aborts want us to believe). It’s sex-slaves, prostitutes, and adulterers. We have a sizable segment of the population in this country whose livelihood and personal reputations depend on legal abortion. The more this is exposed, the better.
There you go! Jump on it people! CC just admitted that Planned Parenthood isn’t really about offering a CHOICE. Just about offering abortions.
It was on PP’s own website that Jill linked to a few years ago that showed the majority of what they do is indeed abortions. There is no money to be made in pap smears, dear CC.
Cranky,
That video you posted of the ranting blogger is truly hideous. At least he is a very transparent example of the flagrant racism and sexism of many Planned Parenthood supporters.
I’ve never been to a fetus shower….only BABY showers. When my sister in law was pregnant with my brother’s oldest daughter (she’s 9 years old now), I schemed with her older sister to plan a surprise BABY shower….not Fetus shower. My best friend from childhood is expecting her third baby, not fetus. I’ve also never seen a invitation for a Fetus shower in the stores…..guess my eyes are bad!
CC said: You might want to check out the biology books which are used in the schools. Fetuses are not referred to as “babies.”
At 9 weeks – the age when an embryo becomes a fetus – it’s undeniable a human baby.
http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images.php?thum_id=358
Want to play semantic games?
How would you feel if others imposed a criteria of inhumanity upon you that you impose on human children?
@CC: What evidence is there that PP didn’t report anything? How about a news article where local cops say that no such report was filed?
Albemarle police Sgt. Darrell Byers said Friday that he knew of no one in his department who received information about the “fake patient.” He said it was possible the workers could have called but that no report was made.
So, yeah. It’s not PP saying they did with no evidence to prove that they did. It’s PP saying they did, with evidence that says they didn’t. So…yeah. I don’t believe them. I think they’re lying.
My response:
http://gerardnadal.com/2011/02/08/christine-quinns-legislative-support-of-the-child-sex-traffickers-she-loves/
Kel —
I’m afraid that pro-aborts such as “CC” are incapable of using logic. We could spend hours debating them and it still wouldn’t convince them of the humanity of the unborn and the intrinsic evil of abortion. Thanks for trying, though; your arguments are solid and articulate.
You are right CC a fetus isn´t a baby just like a baby isn´t a preschooler or a teen. They are names to categorize development or stages of the human life.
The entity is the same. An abortion ends the beginning life of a human being.
Ninek: “Why does Planned Parenthood NOT deliver live babies to mothers who have decided to give birth”
CC: “That’s not their *mission. They are not in the “maternity” business. Why should thay be involved in childbirth and pre/post natal care. Not all gynocologists are involved in obstetrics. The community health centers, which don’t do abortions, provide the kind of care that you think PP should be doing – but they don’t. Bottom line.”….. the mission of Planned Parenthood is to provide comprehensive reproductive and complementary health care services…”
And Ninek – your constant refrain about how PP “wants dead babies” is both simplistic and ridiculous. At least some of the other posters here have a more – ah – intellectual approach.”
And you proved me wrong, exactly how? PML!! (It’s the new lol).
I’m having fun. Are you?
So, new question: Since Kermit Gosnell got arrested the DA’s office in Philly has been ‘ringing off the hook’ with women coming forward to say, ‘me too, he was a monster’. So, Planned Parenthood Apostles, where are the young women who were saved from sexual abuse by PP staff? Oh, there must be a few. Surely, someone at PP at some time, in some city has called the authorities which resulted in saving someone from abuse. Why don’t any of these young women come forward? Why don’t any of the victims advocates come forward and defend PP? How come the advocates are outraged? How come they are not defending PP and all of it’s wonderful service to the community? How come the only people defending PP are hostile to the pre-born? How come people like you and Joan are the only ones coming forward to comment on a pro-life site? You and Joan both regularly make hostile comments about religion, poor people, and the non-person status you wish to impose on the pre-born? You’re not convincing anyone of anything, except that abortion advocates are hostile to the poor and hostile to families, and above all, hostile to pre-born human children.
Chantal, you beat me to it… fetus, toddler, juvenile, pre-teen, etc are all different stages of the life of Homo sapiens sapiens. Great post.
“It’s PP saying they did, with evidence that says they didn’t.”
Far be it from me to defend PP, but I think that’s an unfair statement. I’ve called police many times when no report was made. If I happened to call the dispatcher, chances are my call was recorded. If I called a more specialized reporting number for something very specific, my call may not have been recorded. Lack of evidence that I called isn’t evidence that says I didn’t.
It’s just common sense to document your referrals so that if you need to demonstrate that you made one, you aren’t dependent on the other source for confirmation.
Matt:
Good to have you aboard.
I read your column all the time at:
http://www.renewamerica.com
CC,
Give me one good reason not to cite a Dictionary? Where do you go for the definition of words…a DICTIONARY–whether Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Medical, Psychological, et cetera…to define a word you go to a Dictionary. I was defining a word, so I went to 2 dictionaries plus a Thesaurus. If I wanted a medical definition of a word I’d go to a medical dictionary. As it was, I was looking for the definition of the word, whether medical or not. You want me to seek out a medical dictionary. Fine. I will.
Here’s from an Online Dictionary: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fetus
Here’s what a Medical Dictionary said: http://www.online-medical-dictionary.org/omd.asp?q=Fetus
From an Online Biology Dictionary: http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Fetus
Might not say “baby” in particular, but really, what else is a human offspring? Human offsprings can’t be kittens or any other being. It must be human.
CC SAID:
Sample
Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost
Did you notice “premature exit” (I added the bold font to show where I got that).
Shall we look up the definition of “premature”?
Oxford Online Dictionary says: http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1280357#m_en_us1280357 ”adjective
occurring or done before the usual or proper time ; too early:the sun can cause premature aging[with infinitive] :it would be premature to do so at this stage
(of a baby) born before the end of the full term of gestation, especially three or more weeks before. ”
CC why does it matter what developmental stage said human is in? Even after birth humans do continue to develop. In fact, full maturation doesn’t occur until like age 18 or something like that (I forget the exact age) and even then humans are constantly evolving/changing: opinions, hairstyles, looks, attitudes, you name it (that’s another form of development).
You’re trying to dehumanize the unborn human being by saying they aren’t really human until they’re born, HOWEVER you said: “Species human – obviously.”
So if said unborn being is human, how come they’re not a person? That makes NO sense.
I think you’re grasping at straws here. I recommend a different route. Take care and God bless.
no biology books would say that pre-born ‘little one’ was from a species other than human
Species human – obviously. “Person” – no.
The more you speak CC, the more I’m inclined to agree with you.
At least in your case.
Zygote.
Embryo.
Fetus.
Infant.
Toddler.
Little Kid.
Adolescent.
Young Adult.
Middle Age Adult.
Old Age Adult.
Same human being.
Same Lifespan.
Fundamentally the same.
I love these debates…
—-
Not much on Planned Parenthood in the news. I want to find a source that isn’t from a pro-choice or pro-life organization- no offense to anyone, but I feel that a source that is less biased will be most trustworthy with all of the facts.
Vannah,
Don’t fall for the trick that each side always uses – that there’s a built-in “bias”. One of them has to be closer to the truth than the other.
ok – I’m back from my conference call…
The separating parents and children was from a quote in the bloodmoney trailer – and others who have worked for Planned Parenthood attest to. – PP was to become the ‘trusted’ guide in a young person’s life. And because of secrecy and other items, things fell into place. Just watch the trailer. The woman who is speaking was an abortionist and she knew full well what the game-plan was.
Also – don’t you find it ironic that some prominent Reformed Jews are Pro-Choice? Since it was their people who were targeted by the Nazi regime for extermination – one would think they would be FIRST in line to protect the defenseless. Most Democrats who were Pro-Life, once they got to the national stage of politics ‘became pro-choice.’ Regrettable, for sure.
And the same with Black politicians (like Jesse Jackson)- again – a population that should remembers the horrors of its history of being a race subjected to torture and death – all because some folk considered them sub-human. When they got to a national stage in their career – again with the Democratic Party – it was a change to Pro-Choice from a previously held pro-Life position.
I think the saying is that “power corrupts.” and ‘might makes right,’
Remember – an abortion is a purposeful event – the purposeful ending of a pre-born human’s life. Lord have mercy!
“The abortion industry covers up a multitude of sins. It’s not just poor women and women who can’t handle a fifth child who are getting abortions (as pro-aborts want us to believe). It’s sex-slaves, prostitutes, and adulterers.”
Really? Source? According to Guttmacher, 60% of women who obtain abortions are already mothers. I know the facts can be confusing when you’ve got some white slavery hysteria that makes you believe that every girl in an abortion clinic has been frogmarched there by a merciless pimp. News flash: Lila Rose didn’t bust a sex trafficking sting. She and her cronies merely played dress-up.
“Oh – and laughable about family relationships – abortionists who worked for PP acknowledge that one of the main goals was to try to separate girls from their families on these issues, so that the secrecy would bring a young girl to PP instead of parents…”
PP serves 3 million women a year. They’re realistic–kids have sex. They provide resources when parents are unwilling to face those facts. Also, PP provides preventive sexual health services to women of all ages, particularly the low-income and those without health insurance. When I leave school I won’t have HI, and you can bet I’ll be heading to PP for my annual gyno appt. until I get a job that covers me.
Go right ahead to PP for all your health needs – and know that having those services helps PP do EVERYTHING it does, including abortions.
As I have stated here before – PP does not really look out for your safety – in my case, they never asked about my family’s history – I am a DES daughter and have been wounded by man-made artificial hormones and should have never been prescribed more. I knew my history – but I am not a doctor – and when they gave me the hormones I figured they knew what they were doing. Wrong. I needed to be a better health consumer – but their first priority is to be an excellent doctor and health care facility.
I’m afraid they came up uber short in both departments. No sting operation there – just real life experience. Sorry. I know first hand that they are not really looking out for everyone.
Vannah wrote:
Not much on Planned Parenthood in the news.
Hmmm… with something this big and pandemic? It’s enough to make someone a bit suspicious, isn’t it? :)
Out of curiosity: what sources were you counting as “news”? Were they “mainstream media” (ABC, CBS, NBC, major newspapers, etc.)? In my experience, those agencies are much more likely to downplay bad news stories about abortion, than they are to play them up. If memory serves, more MSM journalists self-identify as “pro-choice” than otherwise. (Here’s the only link I could find, in the limited time I have to search, at the moment:
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/losing-the-pro-abortion-media-bias/
You might want to keep that in mind, when looking for alleged “unbiased” sources of reporting…
Megan,
Please read my comment more carefully and you will see that I’m not talking about 100% of abortions. That said, I don’t think young girls who are held as sex-slaves would appreciate your dismissing the response to this PP story as “white slavery hysteria”. (Where do you get the idea that only white girls are affected, anyways?)
News flash: Lila Rose didn’t bust a sex trafficking sting. She and her cronies merely played dress-up.
No matter.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and is responded to like one would to a duck….. then they (PP) thought it was a duck.
Megan,
I’ll see if I can come up with some statistics on abortions among minor sex workers, prostitutes, adulterers, etc…. If anyone else has them, help would be appreciated. I’ll have to take a break for now…
Even if your number is true, and 60% of abortions are to women who are already mothers, that doesn’t automatically remove them from the other pools reported, like prostitutes, etc., right?
Oh Janet…
PP knew it was a game all along. They were just playing along for fun…
Gerard,
It just makes me want to cry. Those poor young girls are being used and abused by adults – the sex traffickers AND the abortion industry. If they cared, PP wouldn’t be fighting parental notification at every turn in every State. Ugh.
It makes it easier to commit injustice when we can dehumanize the victims of that injustice, no
Funny how the majority of those who identify as Reformed Jews (and many conservative and some orthodox – see Joe Liebermann) are pro-choice.
How does this response have anything to do with my comment about dehumanizing other humans? We already know the unborn are human beings. Are you saying you believe Jews or Blacks or any other group who has been victimized is somehow incapable of dehumanizing or is somehow infallible? Are you saying that because a “majority” of a group believes someone is disposable makes it so?
The dictionaries know they’re the same thing
Rather than citing dictionaries, we should be citing science texts.
Oh, really? Do you refer to “science texts” to make your arguments about why preborn human beings should be considered less human and disposable in comparison to other humans, or are you relying on something a bit more philosophical and arbitrary? Hmm?
Live Action has busted enablers of the sex slave trade. PP clinic directors, etc. supplied enough ready info to who they thought was a pimp/slaver to lead reasoanable people to believe that they are not strangers to this. It will be interesting to see what investigations turn up and how long PP devotees make excuses.
What I don’t understand is why people who were and are rightly concerned about institutional cover up of abuse of minors at the hands of priests don’t seem to care about similar cover ups at the hands of PP. Either sex abuse matters, or it doesn’t.
It is a lot more difficult for sex slaves to come forward, for obvious reasons. My hope is that the undercover investigations that Live Action did will not only result in defunding a corrupt institution, but that local authorities will dontheir own work and sex rings will be busted and girls and boys set free. PP could still help with that, if it had the will to do so.
Oh, and the dictionary is a book that lists commonly accepted definitions in our society. Which means society at large agrees with the statement that a fetus is a baby and vice versa. Scientifically we know a fetus is a human child, and societally we accept that a fetus is a human child as well.
Please answer my question, CC: What’s the inherent difference between a 30 week fetus in-utero and a 30 week fetus who had his spine severed by Gosnell in his clinic?
Kel –
I’m afraid that pro-aborts such as “CC” are incapable of using logic. We could spend hours debating them and it still wouldn’t convince them of the humanity of the unborn and the intrinsic evil of abortion. Thanks for trying, though; your arguments are solid and articulate.
Hi Matt! Thanks, and welcome.
I have never been to doctors office, dentist office, hospital, county health clinic, crisis pregnancy center, veteranarian’s office,… where they had bullet proof glass separating them from their patients/clients.
That looks more like the tellers cage at a 24 hour ‘stop and rob’.
The bank tellers in the drive thru’s have the same kind of glass bunker.
The one thing all these places have in common that have the bullet proof glass is a lot of cash on hand.
Now there is something to ponder.
Why all the cash if their goal is to help POOR women in distress by providing health care subsidized by the government?
Why all the cash if their goal is to help POOR women in distress by providing health care subsidized by the government?
That’s a good point Ken. All you proaborts keep talking about how Planned Parenthoods goal is to provide help to poor women in hard times, but if that was their goal, you’d think they’d donate some of the money they make in women’s healthcare commercial genocide to those women.
Very good point, yor bro ken.
For years my father owned check cashing businesses in MS. Same set-up, thick bullet proof glass – though he had emergency police call buttons as well.
PP might benefit from those, but I think they’re concerned with pushing other sorts of buttons.
I’ve picked on poor CC a bit these last 2 days, but I’m glad we both finally agree: PP is not in the maternity business. When I rebuke you, it’s for your own good, like telling you to brush your teeth and eat your vegetables. You don’t thank me now, but someday I know you will.
Pro-choice Megan, you commented that 60% of women seeking abortions were already mothers. I just need to correct your statistic: 100% of women seeking abortions are already mothers.
I also want to say howdy to the new commenters and Hi! to the old ones..er I mean, commenters I’m more familiar with.
Howdy ninek :) I’m glad I found this blog, there’s some excellent debates here.
“That said, I don’t think young girls who are held as sex-slaves would appreciate your dismissing the response to this PP story as ‘white slavery hysteria’. (Where do you get the idea that only white girls are affected, anyways?)”
Especially seeing as the “pimp” says in one of the videos, “Some of them are, like, Asian.”
Why does anyone even bother to pretend that PP surely must be innocent of such ANTI-FEMALE complicity in sex slave trade?
The evidence is apparently very easy to expose.
AND the abortion industry defenders, the devoted, trusting, chanting choicists, infest the internet.
Obviously the abortion industry is well aware that they can profit from complicity with sleazy pimps, counting on the abortion industry lobby groups (NARAL, NOW, etc.), biased leftist media, AND also COUNTING ON chanting choicist sheeple, to cover for the no matter WHAT they commit.
CC, do you even really care about the victims of child sex slavery? Exactly how many times would the abortion industry have to be caught in complicity before you’d maybe start to question or criticize your beloved abortion industry? Just how confident can those employed in the abortion industry be in your continued devotion, no matter what?
Can’t you see that devotees like you are a MAJOR reason the abortion industry feels confident they can get away with it – the more you blindly defend them – the more likely it will continue – thanks to you.
You don’t care about the babies killed by abortionists AND you don’t care about underage female sex slaves either. You’ve been brainwashed to believe that the former is somehow ‘pro-woman’… good luck convincing anyone, including yourself, that the latter is ‘feminist’.
Wake up and stop allowing the abortion industry to exploit your worshipful naivety.
The fact that there are chanting choicists who will defend the abortion industry no matter what they get caught doing makes it MUCH, MUCH MORE likely and believable that the abortion industry does, and will continue to, commit such disgusting things.
KNOWING that they will be defended no matter what, that their complicity will be covered-up and denied, enables criminals, rather than protects their victims.
unborn babies vs abortionists: CC sides with the killers
underage sex slaves vs abortion industry: CC still sides with the abortionists
I bet the abortion industry secretly makes fun of such faithful devotees.
No doubt it saves them a lot of pr money because of all the free fans.
Written by CC:
That’s not their *mission. They are not in the “maternity” business. Why should thay be involved in childbirth and pre/post natal care. Not all gynocologists are involved in obstetrics. The community health centers, which don’t do abortions, provide the kind of care that you think PP should be doing – but they don’t. Bottom line.
Maybe PP should be providing prenatal care and childbirth services to low-income individuals because they claims to provide comprehensive and full spectrum reproductive health services (although their prenatal care, infertility, & adoption counseling services are almost non-existent).
Oh, but what do you know, those same community health clinics also provide all the same reproductive health services as Planned Parenthood with the addition of primary care, prenatal care, and parenting support programs, for low-income women & their families. In fact, women & their families would likely seek their care at these and low-cost hospital-run clinics instead, if any number of PP clinics were closed down.
Whatever PP’s mission is, they are not above the law. Their behavior in this scandal demonstrates plain old corruption and disregard for the lives and wellbeing of sex slaves. It’s really hard to see them as defenders of women when this last tape shows a clinic supervisor giving advice as to how a pimp/slaver can become the legal guardian of of his prostitute/slaves. How anti woman, warped and awful is that idea?!?
PP’s devotees can’t protect them from investigation, and hopefully being defunded. They deserve nothing from the taxpayer, and some are itching for jail time based on their illegal coverup of abuse of minors.
Real feminists and people who care for women are outraged!
Planned Parenthood / formerly American Eugenics Society: child sacrifice times two, both the teens and their unborn. Coming from one of the organizations closest to fascism and fascist population ideology.
Of course it does. Either a good one or a bad one.
All this talk about Planned Parenthood Planned Parehthood WILL continue to get funding. If they don’t, then the Catholic Church shouldn’t get funding, either.
And, if a few bad workers at PP are dirty, that doesn’t indict the whole organization.
Just as if a few Catholic priests and members of the hierarchy are dirty, that doesn’t indict the whole organization. But you knew that, right?
What type of federal funding does the Catholic Church get anyway? Answer: zero. Unlike Planned Parenthood. Many that’s the reason for all the citizen outrage against PP?
By the way, Peter, you should know that I have decided to send a dollar to the pro-life fund of the Archdiocese of New York for every anti-Catholic remark made on this site. (At first it was just CC’s rants, but they’re getting too repetitious). If you don’t watch your mouth, you’re going to be a supporter of the eeee-vil Catholic Church!
That’s $9 so far.
Suzy says:
No, ninek, just because one is pregnant doesn’t make her a mother.
Hans Johnson says:
Of course it does. Either a good one or a bad one.
Excellent response Hans Johnson! And in response to CC’s wish to use scientific textbooks, biology textbooks routinely refer to the person in whose uterus an embryo or fetus is developing as “mother” and her blood supply is “maternal” (from Latin, the adjective form for “mother”) and separate from the embryo or fetus.
Suzy,
Sincere question, here: what (exactly), in your mind, does make a woman a “mother”?
Lori wrote:
Just as if a few Catholic priests and members of the hierarchy are dirty, that doesn’t indict the whole organization. But you knew that, right? What type of federal funding does the Catholic Church get anyway? Answer: zero. Unlike Planned Parenthood. Many that’s the reason for all the citizen outrage against PP?
:) Very nice catch!
(BTW: I don’t see an original comment by “Peter”; I assume it was deleted?)
Suzy, you are completely, foolishly, wrong. Being pregnant means you ARE a mother. When I was pregnant they constantly talked to me about “maternal health”. If I was not a mother yet why were they referring to my “maternal health”? They even, GASP, referred to my growing little boy as a “baby”!
What type of federal funding does the Catholic Church get anyway? Answer: zero
Is Catholic charities distinct from the church?
“Alexandria, Va., Aug 4, 2009 / 04:42 am (CNA).- Catholic Charities USA has received a five-year, 100 million dollar federal contract to aid in disaster relief throughout the United States. The contract is the charity’s first ever federal contract.”
Also, what percentage of federal monies (Medicare, Medicaid) , that go to Catholic hospitals is taken as church profit after operating expenses are deducted?
I have never been to doctors office, dentist office, hospital, county health clinic, crisis pregnancy center, veteranarian’s office,… where they had bullet proof glass separating them from their patients/clients
That’s because they are under threat of attack from angry, crazy “pro-lifers” at any given time. If past is prologue, they are at serious risk.
Just so you know – Suzy/Peter/Ricardo/Sam, and others like CC, anti-Catholic comments like many of the ones you’ve been posting will be removed. Those are considered “deliberate inflammatory comments.”
You might want to re-read the rules for posting. Thanks.
CC, yes Catholic Charties is a separate organization from the Catholic Church as such. As are Catholic hospitals. And Medicaid and Medicare barely pay a pittance. You really think there is going to be anything left over to enrich the Church?
As someone who hasn’t darkedned a church door since she was 12, you shouldnt play the expert on the Churchh.
what percentage of federal monies (Medicare, Medicaid) , that go to Catholic hospitals is taken as church profit after operating expenses are deducted?
ROFL. It’s been a long time since I saw the words “Medicare,” “Medicaid,” and “profit” in the same sentence. Thanks for making me laugh.
cc – please stop re-producing rhetoric you know nothing about. As a sidewalk counselor – I am not a ‘crazy pro-lifer’ and I pose NO THREAT to anyone at any clinic.
In fact – I have helped people right at our local PP that PP could care less about – the homeless (which they ignored on a cold, snowy day when they gave nice hot chocolate to their pro-choice supporters who were outside the building while a homeless woman who was sitting at the dumpster at edge of their property they ignored completely), the people having car trouble (who I asked for permission to come onto the property to give her car battery a jump).
And I am the one who was almost run over 3 times by a PP employee who cavalierly made comments about ‘hey you want to watch where you stand – you wouldn’t want to get run over now would you?’ After the second time I made a police complaint.
As proven time and time again – the pro-lifers are on any given day more at risk of violence than the clinic and the staff, despite PP painting a picture of the opposite. On day-to-day activities it’s the pro-lifers that stand to get shoved, punched, yelled at, etc.
One day an angry young man came over – I thought I was going to get decked, but thankfully was able to talk him into being calm.
True pro-lifers do not want to harm anyone. That is why they do the work they do. it’s pro-life – not pro-harm.
True pro-lifers do not want to harm anyone. That is why they do the work they do. it’s pro-life – not pro-harm
I didn’t mean to say that all those outside clinics were “crazy.” I was referring to those individuals, who, in the past, have murdered clinic staff inside clinics. The danger for Planned Parenthood is always present. A relative of mine worked the main desk at a clinic and she got threatening phone calls on a daily basis. They were also sent white powder. When I did escort duty, I was trained in what to do if the clinic was rushed – as happened during the 80’s when Operation Rescue was doing some radical stuff – especially at Tiller’s clinic. Tiller was wounded outside his clinic by a deranged anti-choicer. On the days when abortions take place, our PP has a Providence police person outside the clinic which has had incidents where seemingly deranged anti-choicers have tried to forcibly enter. One even tried to scale a fence to find out if the “dead babies” were in the trash. During that period, the head of our PP was stalked by somebody who was not “pro-choice.” Eventually, a restraining order was established and he moved out of town.
The protesters (and shouting/praying at women as they walk into a clinic is not counseling) that I have encountered are harmless and nice folks. But those people (who claim that they are “pro-life”) who have committed acts of violence against PP are crazy and that’s why PP is well protected.
I agree that violence in any form is not ok and those pro-lifers who are truly pro-life condemn such violence. It is the antithesis of pro-life work.
Sorry to hear that you actually escorted women into the clinic and sorry to hear that your relative endured harassing phone calls.
I just feel very sorry that pp and others really do not understand that we are there for everyone’s welfare. We see abortion as an injustice to the human race. We see the detriment to women who have had abortions – and the reason I am at the sidewalk at all doing what I do is because of a friend of mine who has no children due to her abortion history.
She really convicted me when she said – ‘Joy, if just one person was there, I would have never had my abortion.’ And she and I devised a peaceful, prayerful way to witness to others (I am so glad the Holy Spirit was there to guide us!).
We firmly believed that we should offer help in any way possible – and we do. We tell people where they can get low cost/free health care, furniture, food, and the information needed from other service providers. We truly want to see women whole and functioning – and their family thriving in every way possible.
I am now arranging for whole households of furniture to get to those in need. We deliver food, clothes, diapers, slow cookers, beds, dressers, sheets and anything a woman might need. If we can get it, we give it.
and most of all, we give women hope. We believe in them. We know that they are capable.
When women chose abortion, they are out of hope. It’s an act of desperation and that desperation hurts them in many ways – not only in the short and long run, but spiritually as well.
Remember – we are viewing this as a human rights violation. If any certain class of humans is denigrated, we all suffer.
Sorry about your experiences. Hope the future holds out more joy for you.
Suzy says:
February 9, 2011 at 1:09 am
No, ninek, just because one is pregnant doesn’t make her a mother.
What else could she possibly be? When I was pregnant my mother told me I was already a mother. She said the moment a woman conceives a child that is when she is a mother because that’s the moment a separate, unique human being forms.
Since pro-lifer-on-clinic violence is so very rare, I can’t conclude that escorts really serve to protect women. In fact, the deathscorts’ main purpose is to make sure the mother doesn’t back out and take her baby and her money elsewhere.
I’m glad other people caught the irony in PP’s “comprehensive” care that CC posted. Can you imagine a urologist claiming to provide ‘comprehensive care’ and then refusing to help a man with a bladder infection? Only in the surreal world of abortion-for-hire can you call a corporation ‘planned parenthood’ and make it your corporate mission to make sure NONE of your clients actually become parents of living children. Only in the Bizarro land of abortion can you claim to provide ‘reproductive care’ that only ensures that no human reproduction can be completed. Only in the topsy-turvy world of prenatal homicide can you ignore science and biology and claim that a mother isn’t a mother until she and her boyfriend or husband and/or parents all agree that she may become a mother at some future point despite the fact that a human individual has already begun growing. Since all other animals (including all the other placental mammals) are biologically parents when their offspring are conceived, it is almost laughable that anti-lifers think they can impose relativism on scientific and biological fact. It would be laughable if they weren’t murdering the English language to justify murdering human children.
Now for a little tune:
Defund. Defund. Defund. Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody defund tonight.
Great post ninek – love reading your comments!
So Ninek, you totally dismiss what Planned Parenthood provides apart from abortion? So you think that pap smears and STD testing is unnecessary. How bout screenings for breast cancer?
BTW, the defunding bill will be “aborted” in the Senate.
BTW Ninek, I don’t know where you live, but where I live PP is considered a vital part of our community. Regional/educational difference – I know….
cc – again we have free and low cost clinics all over – and every one of them do basic care and most do OB/GYN. The only reason that people come to PP is for the ‘free’ stuff and that these doctors and providers are OUT of the MAINSTREAM – and their clients know it.
Secrecy hides much – and evil flourishes in the dark.
The services can be had elsewhere – but the abortions are the silent business no one wants to talk about. That is why pro-abortionists really don’t want to talk about baby’s body parts, death and tragedy. It’s all about the ‘other stuff.’
Because abortion is truly hard to look at in the face. pun intended.
So Ninek, you totally dismiss what Planned Parenthood provides apart from abortion? So you think that pap smears and STD testing is unnecessary. How bout screenings for breast cancer?
Of course those services are important, but there are institutions that offer them and don’t kill innocent human beings.
I don’t know where you live, but where I live PP is considered a vital part of our community
Yep, that PP sure has a great public relations team, now if only they had scientific fact and basic common sense. Speaking of which, I haven’t seen a comment from you educating us as to why fetuses aren’t people.
CC, putting words in my mouth? In which post on which day did I declare that I didn’t care about STD’s and breast cancer? However, PP promotes the very vicious cycle that perpetuates STD’s, cervical, and breast cancer. A vital part of your community? Where do you live, the 5th circle of Hell?
PML!!!
So Ninek, you totally dismiss what Planned Parenthood provides apart from abortion? So you think that pap smears and STD testing is unnecessary. How bout screenings for breast cancer?
CC,
I can go to my doctor for a pap smear and testing. Like joy said there are low cost clinics that provide these services as well (that are NOT PP).
Also, like Ninek says, she never said testing and pap smears aren’t important, she never ever said that.
Pro-lifers believe in testing and pap smears, we just know that PP is mostly known for abortions.
Btw, the 5th circle is a reference to Dante’s Divine Comedy, but I wouldn’t expect you to have studied it. I assume some people were too busy learning how to misspell women as “womyn” or “wymen” in their “wimmin’s study” classes, lol!
Gosh, I can’t believe I myself used to correct people and say “herstory” instead of “history!” But now I look back on the hagosaurus that taught me that, and I can’t believe I took vocabulary advice from such a hateful old crone. I bet she lives alone now with about a hundred cats. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…
Where do you live, the 5th circle of Hell?
Proud to say that I am a 62 year old resident, since birth, of Rhode Island – founded by Puritan dissident Roger Williams who believed in the liberty of conscience and whose religous descendants are now the liberal and pro-choice United Church of Christ. RI – home to Brown University. RI – a place where Narragansett Bay is treated with the reverence that a natural resource should be treated. RI – a place that encompasses the working class neighborhoods of the Blackstone Valley with the mansions of Ocean Drive Newport. RI – a place where cinema and the arts flourish. RI – a place that has elected a pro-gay marriage and pro-choice Episcopalian (another proud history) governor. RI -a place that elected an openly gay (pro-choice, part Jewish) member of congress and former mayor of Providence, David Cicciline. RI, the “Ocean State.” RI – proudly pro-choice. Yes, we have our problems but since we fired that shot on the British revenue cutter (the “Gaspee) we have always survived. And we, the “Ocean State,” are beautiful.
5th circle of hell – Surely you jest.
Btw, the 5th circle is a reference to Dante’s Divine Comedy, but I wouldn’t expect you to have studied it
Actually, I have a copy of “La Divina Comedia” (encompasses all three “levels”) by Dante which I studied in freshman world lit. As I am somewhat proficient in Italian, I can read some of it in the original. Can you? I was a member of Phi Alpha Theta, an honor society in history. Were you? And I have only one cat and a husband of 37 years and we’re doing quite well, thank you very much. (Don’t like to brag but the old homestead is worth, even in this economy, a bit) But it’s amusing to see your “fantasy” of me. LOL.
CC, perhaps now that the taking-people’s-statements-too-seriously portion of your rant is over, you’d like to start the counter-argument part? Unless of course you don’t have one…
you’d like to start the counter-argument part? Unless of course you don’t have one
Which is what, exactly? Oh, right abortion is killing your baby. Same old, same old.
Bottom line – the law is on my side. Abortion is legal. And if Roe goes down my beautiful blue state, as well as the rest of New England (which traditionally values liberty) will still keep it legal. Inasmuch as you folks think that everybody hates abortion, it just isn’t true. Reality. Sorry.
Joy: “Fetus means ‘little one’ and no biology books would say that pre-born ‘little one’ was from a species other than human. Science is science.”
Well, no, it does not mean “little one,” for starters.
Years ago there must have been some pro-life website that claimed that, but it’s just silly.
Ninek: “Pro-choice Megan, you commented that 60% of women seeking abortions were already mothers. I just need to correct your statistic: 100% of women seeking abortions are already mothers.”
There is no no one single way it has to be, there. Yes, you can say that at conception there is a biological father and mother. And you can also say that, “She’s going to have a baby” or “going to have a child,” or that “I became a father today – my wife just gave birth so here, have a cigar.”
CC, It was my poli-sci teacher who I called ‘hagosaurus’ not you, but that’s ok. I just have to wonder what kind of community would consider PP a vital part of itself. I get the heebie jeebies just thinking of it. RI is a beautiful state and has a lot more going for it than to consider PP a vital part of itself.
Now that you mention your age, I admit I did think you were younger. Your rhetoric is old, but it’s similar to what I hear from late twenty-early thirties women who have not yet shed the indoctrination they received at the hands of bitter, older women like my poli-sci hag. I don’t speak Italian, but I do speak a total of 4 languages.
Like I said, I myself used to use that crazy feminist vocabulary and even used to talk of ‘forced pregnancy.’ I think once you wake up from that haze and get the feminist kool aid out of your system, the whole brain functions more efficiently. You are old enough to remember the ERA’s defeat in 1972, I see. Now, in light of that, when the Roe v Wade travesty occured in early 1973, feminists hailed it as some kind of victory. Why didn’t they wonder why men embraced abortion but rejected equal pay for equal work? I keep asking myself that. We could have done more to help women but abortion sidetracked us in the worst way. It was no victory. It was a negation of everything that is whole and good about being female. We stopped fighting for equal pay, we stopped fighting for daycare at work and daycare at school. We turned on our own children, and now where do we find ourselves? Sitting on top of a heap of tiny bones, that’s where.
Bottom line – the law is on my side. Abortion is legal
And at one point the law was on the side of the Soth and slavery was legal as well, but that doesn’t makke it any less of a human rights violation.
Inasmuch as you folks think that everybody hates abortion, it just isn’t true. Reality. Sorry.
If we thought everybody hated abortion, we wouldn’t have a need for blogs like this one.
Well, no, it does not mean “little one,” for starters.
We can continue to argue about terminology for as long as you want. So what if fetuses aren’t babies? Children, adolescents, and adults aren’t babies either, that doesn’t mean that they don’t have the right to life.
CC says:
February 9, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Proud to say that I am a 62 year old resident,
AH, we do get it CC. You are a boomer feminist and quite angry about the younger women not buying the trash our generation tried to sell them!
When you and I are dead and gone CC, I’m hoping we leave behind a generation of women who choose to be mothers and recognize that being a mother is a beautiful enriching part of life.
Not like our generation who burned their bras and murdered their children so we could get uh, liberated….
Yeah right.
Angel,
CC is good and angry because she killed her own child in a turkey baster drive-by. She’s in her 60’s now and seethes at the sight of other’s happiness with their children, though she’ll never admit as much.
It all comes out as contempt for pro-lifers.
Relax CC, even if Roe is overturned, I doubt that legislation will specifically mention your particular culinary deviancy.
(Doug): “Well, no, it does not mean “little one,” for starters.”
NAR): “We can continue to argue about terminology for as long as you want. So what if fetuses aren’t babies? Children, adolescents, and adults aren’t babies either, that doesn’t mean that they don’t have the right to life.”
Hi NAR. It’s not an argument, it’s just that I find it humorous how some people will latch onto bumper-sticker type slogans even if they are patently false, and IMO it’s silly to think of “little one” for “fetus” given the influence of Latin on English, i.e. you’d think there would be some recognizable stuff in there, even for us non-Latin speakers, that would apparently have something to do with “little” or “one.” Well, I’d think that, anyway.
I think some rascal just conjured the “little one” deal up out of thin air, and lo and behold there are those gullible enough to believe it. And I’m not saying it’s a huge matter – if anything I bet the rascal is out there, likely laughing to himself at how his creation is still hanging around – I’ve seen it for years.
I agree that arguing over terminology isn’t the real deal of the abortion debate. While there are medically correct terms, and while the unborn here are definitely human beings as far as being living human organisms, when we get to “child” or not, and “baby” or not, it’s all subjective. For what it’s worth, “unborn baby” is fine with me….
When you come to the right to life, then yeah – that’s the real deal, at least one of them, within the abortion argument.
Doug: ok guys – sorry about the ‘little one’ – I must have had a brain hiccup!
Fetus means human unborn young – and that does not negate the naturally human worth of that ‘unborn young’ one. science is still science.
A fetus is a noun – a person, place or thing. And since the definition also includes ‘human’ in the definition, it’s not a place or a thing, even if those who support abortion want it to be.
And CC – as Ninek said – she was not talking about you living the end of life alone and with many cats – it was her feminist teacher she was talking about. Nice to hear you are married.
I like Rhode Island, and as a native Nutmegger (Connecticut), I am saddened as the culture has been secularized and the core values my ancestors came to this country with have been pushed aside, with the help of many things unsavory.
And for having law on your side – we continue to pray for just laws that protect ALL humans – not just some. And since you are clearly human, we hope that you would want protection for all our brothers and sisters in our human family, including the littlest neighbors in the womb.
It takes an honest woman to say ‘I made a horrible mistake,’ and start healing. It is a decision one can not take back – only a decision we must live with until the end of our lives. Choosing abortion is not like choosing vanilla or chocolate ice cream. We can not undo-it once it’s completed. But we can learn from our experiences, learn from our mistakes.
I always say that our biggest sins can be some of our biggest teachers, if we let them be that for us. But that means introspection and honesty.
Our biggest compassion in the Pro-Life movement is the post-abortive man or woman. They know the truth, they know the cost, they know what they have gone thru and they have come to a place of healing, help and repentance.
God’s mercy is bigger than any sin, including the sin of abortion. Letting Him in to heal and help is huge.
Let’s remember that vocabulary does not create reality (which is how proaborts advance their agenda).
Vocabulary reflects reality. We begin with the fact that a single-celled human organism, the zygote, is a new organism, a separate and distinct animal in its earliest developmental stage.
Whatever the names we choose for those stages, they do not eliminate that fundamental biological reality. The rights attendant to that new organism are either a function of the kind of organism it is (human), or else they are a function of political whim—conferred and taken away by a mindless, heartless, gutless, pseudo-intellectual, self-appointed aristocracy.
Can you imagine a urologist claiming to provide ‘comprehensive care’ and then refusing to help a man with a bladder infection?
Ninek, is THIS really your gripe with PP? That they don’t provide maternity services yet call the services they do provide “comprehensive”? If my husband calls himself an orthopaedic surgeon but doesn’t treat shoulder injuries, should I shake my finger at him and accuse him of misrepresenting himself? Honestly, there are bigger things in life to be concerned about than the wording of PP’s mission statement.
Only in the surreal world of abortion-for-hire can you call a corporation ‘planned parenthood’ and make it your corporate mission to make sure NONE of your clients actually become parents of living children.
An intentional misinterpretation of the “corporate mission,” of course. Every person reading this site knows perfectly well that the mission of PP is NOT to ensure that every patient who walks through the door dies childless. That’s just silly talk.
“ok guys – sorry about the ‘little one’ – I must have had a brain hiccup!”
Joy, you’re nice and I hope you didn’t feel I was jeering too much at you, personally. I have seen the ‘little one” thing for several, if not many, years, though (along with quite a lot of other stuff from pro-life websites which are aimed at gullible people), and I just have to laugh about it.
_____
“Fetus means human unborn young – and that does not negate the naturally human worth of that ‘unborn young’ one. science is still science.”
Heh – here we go again. Fetus isn’t just for humans. It’s for most mammals, at least, and I think it can include some other vertebrates that give birth to live young (rather than laying eggs) too, which means some fishes and reptiles.
As to “natural worth,” that has nothing to do with science. Science makes no such proclamations.
_____
“A fetus is a noun – a person, place or thing. And since the definition also includes ‘human’ in the definition, it’s not a place or a thing, even if those who support abortion want it to be.”
It would have to be “human fetus” before ‘human’ would be included in it. Agreed that the unborn in the abortion debate are “human beings” under a broad enough definition so that it need mean nothing more than “living human organism.”
_____
“I like Rhode Island, and as a native Nutmegger (Connecticut), I am saddened as the culture has been secularized and the core values my ancestors came to this country with have been pushed aside, with the help of many things unsavory.”
Lots of people came to the “new world” for more freedom from government intrusion into their lives, and while I realize you don’t like abortion, it should be no surprise that many people favor women keeping the freedom they now have with respect to their own pregnancies.
I appreciate the sentiment Doug.
I took the medical definition of fetus taken from dictionary.com. many of the definitions did make special reference to human fetus – and since we are talking about human pregnancies and what human women are carrying in their wombs, then by science – and the theory of homo-genesis – human species begets humans…
My grandparents immigrated here from Italy in the early 1900’s – to provide a better life for their families. They came here before 1973 and were horrified to have abortion be legalized. They lived through two world wars and saw the carnage against humanity.
And there is no freedom in any sin, including abortion. while I assume that the word sin may have no impact – abortion changes family trees forever. While some women don’t have a problem with that, my friends who are post abortive have and none of them have escaped the clutches of abortion.
One never had her own natural children. She went to bed every day knowing she killed her child, and woke up each morning the same. One has emotional problems, and tried to dull her pain with alcohol. I have never met a woman who did not have some sort of regret. And one woman, who was abused by her family was forced to have her first abortion at age 10. She endured 7 of them. She was brave enough to allow one of those children to live – and that child is now in college. She is now beginning her healing and was able to save another child from being snuffed out by abortion.
When she told her story to two women (one who was pregnant and both thought that abortion was just another choice. No big deal. A woman’s choice. What business is it of anyone’s anyway?) …One of those women was her daughter, the other was her pregnant friend. Upon hearing her story, the daughter realized that abortion was a big deal, because if her mother was again forced to have that abortion, she would not be here….
So while this may be hypothetical to you – I know women harmed personally by abortion. And we have not even talked about the injustice of abortion to the unborn humans.
We can talk all we want about freedoms, but if one segment of our population is not free we are all under chains. Just ask the slaves, just ask the Jews, just ask any segment of humanity that is deemed ‘different’ less-than-human’, undesirable or having less rights than others.
Women now have super rights – not equal rights – but big, super and imposing rights. Mothers now have the right to end the life of their unborn children – for any reason at all, against her families wishes, her husband’s wishes, the father of her baby’s wishes, against her own nature…and if the baby could actually communicate – her baby’s wishes.
That indiscriminate power of life and death is not freedom. It’s death – to the soul, to the heart and to the child. And sometimes – even with ‘safe, legal and rare’ – death to the woman herself. Even here, in the good old USA.
Why are you fighting so hard to say that you think abortion is bad or that abortion is good? Just say you believe it. and that you believe anything that goes against that opinion is bad. You all justify and try to make yourselves feel right. absurdity.
Hi NAR. It’s not an argument, it’s just that I find it humorous how some people will latch onto bumper-sticker type slogans even if they are patently false, and IMO it’s silly to think of “little one” for “fetus” given the influence of Latin on English, i.e. you’d think there would be some recognizable stuff in there, even for us non-Latin speakers, that would apparently have something to do with “little” or “one.” Well, I’d think that, anyway.
I think some rascal just conjured the “little one” deal up out of thin air, and lo and behold there are those gullible enough to believe it. And I’m not saying it’s a huge matter – if anything I bet the rascal is out there, likely laughing to himself at how his creation is still hanging around – I’ve seen it for years.
Ahem, Doug: the following is from Lewis and Short’s classical Latin dictionary entry for “fetus” [the stuff in brackets is my translation of the Latin]
I. Abstr., a bringing forth, bearing, dropping, hatching of young (rare but class.). . . .
B. Transf., of plants, a bearing, producing: . .
II. Concr., young, offspring, progeny, brood (the predominant signif. of the word, in sing. and plur.; esp. freq. in poets; cf.: “catulus, pullus, hinnus, hinnuleus) [all diminuitives for young animals]: . . . “cervae lactens fetus,” [deer nursing a fawn] Ov. M. 6, 637: “melliferarum apium,” id. ib. 15, 382: “ex die emptionis, et fetus pecorum et ancillarum partus ad emptorem pertinent,” Paul. Sent. 2, 17, 7: “quis (paveat), Germania quos horrida parturit Fetus?” the German brood, Hor. C. 4, 5, 27.—So very rarely of human beings: “si vitium factum esset, ut (mulier) concipere fetus non posset [that a woman cannot conceive a child],” Gell. 4, 2, 10.—
2. Transf., of plants, fruit, produce: “
B. progeny, growth.
This is the original meaning of the word, and I don’t see why “little one” wouldnt fit as a definition, especially since it is said to have been primarily a poetic term in the beginning. Maybe “young one” is better. Note that there is no separate listing for “unborn child” as a meaning? The meaning seems to have been quite undifferentiated in the beginning; evidently doctors /scientists just later arbitrarily chose this word to refer to the child before birth.
So yes, “fetus” is derived from a Latin word that can mean “little one,” not even necessarily an unborn little one.
Don’t ever apologize to this guy, joy.
Why didn’t they wonder why men embraced abortion but rejected equal pay for equal work? I keep asking myself that. We could have done more to help women but abortion sidetracked us in the worst way. It was no victory. It was a negation of everything that is whole and good about being female. We stopped fighting for equal pay, we stopped fighting for daycare at work and daycare at school. We turned on our own children, and now where do we find ourselves? Sitting on top of a heap of tiny bones, that’s where.
EXACTLY!! Dr. Bernard Nathanson talked about this in his book Aborting America. As one of the founders of NARAL, he went around convincing feminists that if women were going to be in the workplace they would “need abortion” to be on a level playing field with the men. Note: not thay would “need good maternity leave and daycare, or equal pay,” but they would “need abortion.” So much more convenient for the men.
Come to think of it, you owe joy an apology, Doug.
So yes, “fetus” is derived from a Latin word that can mean “little one,” not even necessarily an unborn little one.
Lori, that is such a stretching of things that it has nothing to do with the bumper-sticker sounding “fetus means ‘little one.'”
As far as the bringing forth of offspring, etc., yeah – sure, and I’ve seen that many times. If anything, from what you posted it’s clear that nothing “human” was necessarily implied, and it looks like it mainly was used for animals. And that makes sense to me – if “little one” as far as being human was indeed applicable, then rather than “fetus” it should be “parvulus” or “infans” or “puerulus” etc.
As one of the founders of NARAL, he went around convincing feminists that if women were going to be in the workplace they would “need abortion” to be on a level playing field with the men.
Whether or not one is a feminist, even whether or not one has a particular position with regard to abortion, this is such a generalization as to render it very inapplicable when we get to the individual woman with an unwanted pregnancy. She may not think things are “equal,” i.e. men can’t get pregnant in the first place, nor will she necessarily be concerned at all with “leveling the playing field.” She is one individual, and the idea for pro-choicers is that she should be free to make her best choice. In no way is it necessarily any matter of “class action.”
Lori,
I drool over your proficiency in Latin. Mine is like a rusted out auto body.
Doug, you keep swinging and missing. What’s up with that buddy?
Your Latin stinks.
Your biology is worse.
Your history is deplorable.
Your epistemology is nonexistent.
Your logic is flawed.
And you couldn’t argue your way out of a paper bag. These women have shut you down. Better luck next whine.
Joy, very nice post from you.
My grandparents immigrated here from Italy in the early 1900’s – to provide a better life for their families. They came here before 1973 and were horrified to have abortion be legalized. They lived through two world wars and saw the carnage against humanity.
Do you think seeing the killing in the wars made them more against abortion than they already would have been?
I see abortion as such a substantial debate since it takes us down to the unprovable assumptions we all share. And to the points where the assumptions diverge – that’s where the arguing starts.
My wife is Italian, too. Her great-grandparents came from Agrigento, Sicily, and San Fele, which is in the southern region of Basilicata on the mainland.
Gerard, if we go with the notion that “fetus” can be extended all the way to meaning “little one,” then we could as well say that it means “can be aborted” since surely that is just as applicable.
Saying that “under some senses and usages of the word, ‘little one’ might be construed as one of the meanings of ‘fetus’ in Latin” would be one thing. Flatly stating that “fetus means ‘little one'” is much more of a stretch. By that logic, “fetus” would then mean thousands of things – we can see that from what Lori posted – but that is not at all the intent of the “bumper-sticker” type usage we see, which IMO is quite misleading.
You can say “little one” in Latin, and if we take the most applicable words and phrases pertaining to it, it would be quite a while until we come to “fetus.”
Doug, you are raving. If “nothing human was necessarily implied,” why does the last example bolded specifically refer to a WOMAN conceiving her child or offspring? (There are other similar examples from the very long definition I didn’t include).
And no the word does not mean “thousands” of things. As far as it a noun relating to the creature, rather than a process, all the meanings refer to something “young” or “little” as their basic meaning. (Catulus = puppy, or little dog- it is called a diminuitive, a means of referring to a little example of something). If you want to say fetus doesn’t mean “little one” because “little one” implies something specifically human — well, I wouldn’t attempt that without a net.
It’s amazing to me that you would spend so much time sneering at people for their definition of the word when you clearly didnt know the definition yourself. If you did, you would have given it. You clearly knew the word came from Latin, but were so arrogant you couldn’t look up the meaning.
There is far from one way to say something (including “little”) in any language. You want to console yourself for your mistake by whining “well it’s not the most common way of saying little” as if that did anything to mitigate the fat that you were wrong. Your ideas about translation and word meaning are ludicrous – I say this as someone who has extensive training in Latin, have done editions of Latin texts and am a professional translator to boot.
Like I said, you should apologize to Joy.
Lori, not raving here. If I am missing something, let me know, but is the “si vitium factum esset, ut (mulier) concipere fetus non posset” not just one quote?
And what does the “So very rarely of human beings” mean, there?
As far as the noun relating to the creature, yes, certainly. And I agree that “young one” is probably a better, closer meaning. If we say that “little one” can be applied to the creature, then my point is that hundreds, or yes – even thousands of things can be similarly applied to it.
I’m not too lazy or arrogant to look up the meaning, and have done so quite a few times. “The unborn of mammals after a point in gestation” is very common, or the even more inclusive “unborn of viviparous vertebrates….” Or even the more inclusive “unborn or unhatched vertebrates….”
Joy didn’t refer to the meaning in Latin, and while we can discuss it, at the very least you have to admit that if we include “little one” as one possible meaning, then there are many others.
My point all along is that when we see the statement, ” ‘ fetus’ means ‘little one’ ” – is that not supposed to elicit a mental or emotional response?
Take all the species to which it can apply, take all the synonyms for “little” and “young” and “unborn”, etc., etc., and we really do have hundreds, thousands of terms and combinations.
So what is the response to the ‘little one’ assertion? Even going with it, I’d say, “Well, by that logic it can mean a huge number of things, so what does this have to do with abortion?”
If we are saying, “fetuses are small,” yeah, sure, no problem, but surely that is not the intent of the “little one” statement in the pro-life context.
Wow – ‘little’ did I know that one quickly typed statement would unleash a torrent of posts! Good Golly!
Thank you Lori for the valiant Latin and the the defense! Doug – thank you for the compliment.
Doug – my grandparents immigrated from various places in Italy – my Grandfather and Mother on my Mom’s side – from the Rome area – Gaeta, and my father’s parents from a little town in Sicily – Cannicatinibani (which I am not sure I am spelling correctly but which means ‘dog and cat bath’ … which i think is very funny and I had the good fortune of actually visiting and met some of my relatives there.
Do I think that the carnage of WWI & II made them more abhorrent to abortion. Probably yes. My Grandfather actually fought for the US forces in WWI. But naturally – abortion was considered unthinkable – against nature – out of mind just because. The Italians are a life-loving people. And in the ‘olden days’ people did not live a self-centered life. One lived, worked, enjoyed life and sacrificed for their children. But in Italian homes there is much joy.
Now in modern Italy, people have embraced a secular life-style. Yes – everyone still enjoys family, food, nature, etc. – but adult children live a long time with parents while sleeping with their boyfriends/girlfriends. They worry much more on fashion and things than our grandparents did – and they have abandoned the teachings and safety of the Church.
The Italian people are still lovely – but many moderns have lost their way, and my Grandparents, who are now all passed – God rest their souls – would be horrified to see what has happened.
I grieve for all those hurt by abortion. It is no benign thing. It is literally life and death. And like I have said before – people are thinking of things so casually to not think of the infinite consequences – the finality of the decision and the forever changing of the family tree – our own flesh and blood.
Abortion was just unthinkable. I wish it were so for modern men and women.
Doug,
I’m a biologist, and we’re the ones who name things. Often we name things after our wives (and since I’m a microbiologist, Mrs. Nadal has assured me that the day I ever name a disease after her is the day that she serves me with divorce papers).
Therefore, nomenclature can be an entirely arbitrary endeavor that is not descriptive of the biological entity before us.
For example, Escherichia coli (E. coli) does not look at all like Dr. Theodor Escherich who discovered it. (Trust me on this one. I’ve looked at lots of E. coli under the scope.) Nevertheless, Dr. Escherich spent his life saving people, and while some E. coli are normal gut flora without which we would die, some that have acquired some pretty nasty genes can kill us in a matter of days (the dreaded 0157:H7).
So not even a namesake necessarily shares the function of the one whose name it bears.
The same with developmental nomenclature. The reality of the embryological or fetal organism is not governed by its name any more than the benign/killer natures of Escherichia strains are a function of that sainted physician’s name.
Fetus describes a developmental stage shared by many organisms in the animal kingdom. Thus, there is nothing particularly human about the word for a biologist. Thus the word is hardly descriptive of the reality. (Pro-lifers don’t go to war over the deaths of fetal pigs, which are used by the tens of thousands in biology labs annually)
The truth here is that a human organism has a defined life cycle which begins at the moment of fertilization of a human egg (mother’s gametic tissue) by a human sperm (father’s gametic tissue) and becomes a new entity which is neither mother, nor father’s gametic tissue, but a stand-alone organism. A new human animal with its own unique genetic identity.
The rights attendant to that new animal derive from the kind of animal it is (human). If one disagrees with this fundamental premise, then one would not be at all disturbed by the happenings at Dr. Kermit Gosnell’s office. Further, one would not be any more bothered at the thought of saving those fetuses for a dissection lab than one would at the thought of using fetal pigs. For that matter, it would be an interesting lab to dissect a fetal human side-by-side with a fetal pig.
But I’m sure that the very thought of that wrenches the gut of even the most strident pro-abort, and the question is:
Why?
good question Dr. Gerard!
Well, Doug, the one thing you definitely can’t say, as you did, is that the meaning of “little one” was just invented by some “rascal” on the internet. Joy’s orginal source may have simply said that the word was dervied from a Latin word meaning “little one.” And if it is emotive, is it not also factual? Should be avoid using a certain definition because it has an emotional connotation as well as a specific meaning? Oh, I forgot, that wouldnt support your pro-abortion intentions. Silly me.
Yes, the use for specifically human young was rare in classical Latin (obviously not afterwards), which is what Lewis and short limit themselves to, but that doesn’t do a thing to the meaning, unless you say that “little one” MUST mean “human little one.”
Wow – ‘little’ did I know that one quickly typed statement would unleash a torrent of posts! Good Golly!
Joy, ha! Yes, arguments can spring up all of a sudden, at times. Like a party. ; )
Lori may be right – I may owe you an apology. For one thing, I did not mean to sneer at you, personally. If it felt that way to you, at all, then I am sorry.
Let me ask you – when you wrote “Fetus means ‘little one,’ ” what did that mean to you? No wrong answers here, I’m just wondering.
I’ve been to Italy twice, and my wife and I are going again this June. I hear what you say about the changes that have occurred and are occurring.
For one thing, the same decline in both fertility and mortality that we have in the US is present there, and for all the rights and wrongs of it, there’s no “going back,” I think.
Doug,
Care to take a swing at the softball I just pitched to you?
Thanks, Doug.
Fetus describes a developmental stage shared by many organisms in the animal kingdom. Thus, there is nothing particularly human about the word for a biologist. Thus the word is hardly descriptive of the reality. (Pro-lifers don’t go to war over the deaths of fetal pigs, which are used by the tens of thousands in biology labs annually.)
Gerard, agreed on most of what you said in your post. In my opinion, saying “Fetus means ‘little one’ ” in the pro-choice context implies more than what is true, and it also is saying that a direct translation is at work, which I disagree with.
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The rights attendant to that new animal derive from the kind of animal it is (a new human animal with its own unique genetic identity). If one disagrees with this fundamental premise, then one would not be at all disturbed by the happenings at Dr. Kermit Gosnell’s office. Further, one would not be any more bothered at the thought of saving those fetuses for a dissection lab than one would at the thought of using fetal pigs. For that matter, it would be an interesting lab to dissect a fetal human side-by-side with a fetal pig.
I don’t agree on “inherent rights,” but that doesn’t mean that some of Gosnell’s actions don’t bother me. Regardless of the abortion debate, born living babies are supposed to be protected by law just as you and I are.
Biology is fascinating, but there is a “yuck” factor for many of us with dissections, be it of humans or pigs. Same for autopsies.
Well, Doug, the one thing you definitely can’t say, as you did, is that the meaning of “little one” was just invented by some “rascal” on the internet. Joy’s orginal source may have simply said that the word was dervied from a Latin word meaning “little one.” And if it is emotive, is it not also factual? Should be avoid using a certain definition because it has an emotional connotation as well as a specific meaning? Oh, I forgot, that wouldnt support your pro-abortion intentions. Silly me. Yes, the use for specifically human young was rare in classical Latin (obviously not afterwards), which is what Lewis and short limit themselves to, but that doesn’t do a thing to the meaning, unless you say that “little one” MUST mean “human little one.”
Lori, I had never seen so much of the origin of the word in Latin prior to your posting. I’m not willing to concede that the “rascal” was not at work, however. I like to argue and I’m willing to discuss Latin, even with people that know it 10,000 times better than I do, but I maintain that saying “fetus means ‘little one’ ” implies that it’s a direct translation, rather than just a usage where some case for it can be made in relation to a comparitively rare frequency of appearance from long ago.
Until now, I have never seen any reference to a derivation from another word; it’s always been the flat-out assertion of “means ‘little one.” I also do think there is a necessarily-implied emotive content that “fetus,” by itself, does not necessarily qualify for.
I would not object to “young one” as much, and I agree with you that it would be a better translation. “Little one” – well, yes I guess it’s going to be smaller than full-grown members of the individual species under consideration, but an elephant fetus, for example, will be bigger than most members of most species on earth, regardless of their age. Heck, for that matter, I bet a human fetus is too.
Hey Doug!
I think that Gerard was stating if the aim was using human fetuses in the same way as fetal pigs in science experiments – at least that is what I took away from his comment.
and little one – for me – I was using to describe the human pre-born fetus – an early human in utero, basically since we are talking about humans (mostly) in pro-life. Animal right are another thread.
Glad to hear you went to Italy. I hope that you and your wife have a lovely time!! have a nice cup of Italian coffee, nice pasta and a fresh fig for me! I have friends who live there!
…We can all learn from and appreciate older cultures – I hope we take the best and learn …And I don’t think it’s too late to go back – one family making a commitment in lifestyle can mentor another family, one act of kindness and heroic measures helps another and so on.
I also know that people can change … their worst, most horrible experience can change people radically. I like to think of Saul who became St. Paul (eventually) after a dramatic occurrence on the way to Damascus.
If a persecutor of Christians can change to one of the most loving, eloquent evangelists in history – dying to protect the cause he personally sought to destroy – much like the former abortionists who are now firmly in the Pro-life camp – then there is help for all of us and all of society. with God’s help – all things are possible!
It’s just love conquering the heart and acting on that. totally possible. i like to think positively. ;)
Gerard, a question – aren’t dissections done on fetal humans?
If the family wants to bury the baby, I certainly don’t advocate going against their wishes, and in the case of Gosnell, his collecton of feet can’t really be justified, IMO, but otherwise what is wrong with the dissection if there is good to be gotten from it, i.e. advancing our knowledge, the same as there is good to be gotten from people “donating their bodies to science”?
and I think technically, that should be Love, not love. ;)
ah – yes Doug – but using human bodies in experimentation should only be done with permission of the person donating his body to science, or in the case of an investigation (as in homicide).
Unfortunately there are shady dealings – (usury) – like fetal farming (illicit use of the body – denying human dignity) and also, unfortunately, the result of experimenting on the bodily remains of human abortion.
Ah – more deception, for sure – because for the abortionists who do supply human body parts to labs, pharmaceutical companies and other (teaching?) institutions, I don’t think they ask for permission from the mothers who are aborting. Just another thing to get in the way of the woman ‘signing on the dotted line.’
sorry – I’m getting snarky again. I’ve got a whopper of a cold and need to take a nap.
Doug,
I like your use of “fetal humans”.
Now explain why humans in their fetal stage of development don’t enjoy the right to life.
;) now I’m really going to take a nap.
Abortionists would just love for people to think the babies’ corpses are doing some good, so they could justify their continuing murder. Nope, babies cannot consent to donating their bodies, so it should NOT be done. Students should ONLY study anatomy of adults who were of the age of consent and signed forms to donate. There are plenty available by those means, plus in the digital age we can supplement their education with computer models. There is NO GOOD that could come of exploiting their tiny little remains. That would only be an abortionist’s marketing ploy.
Joy, you’re one of the last people I’d accuse of being snarky.
using human bodies in experimentation should only be done with permission of the person donating his body to science, or in the case of an investigation (as in homicide).
I’d go first with the wishes of the woman/the family, but after that, dead is dead and the body can’t have an opinion or give permission, no matter the age.
“Human dignity” (which is a matter of belief) is then weighed against the real good, if any, to be gained from the experimentation.
Gerard: explain why humans in their fetal stage of development don’t enjoy the right to life.
Because we do not attribute it to them. Because they are inside the body of a person.
Joe Blow is walking down the street – that’s one thing. But if Joe is inside my body, then I’m going to be saying to Joe, “Dude, we gotta have a talk about this….”
I realize that you don’t think the woman’s rights should include being able to end the pregnancy, but even without getting to the right/wrong/good/bad of abortion, there is the woman to consider, as well as the baby, rather than just a baby, period.
Doug,
Newsflash: These decisions are made before the clothes come off. That’s the narcissistic immaturity of abortion: people engaging in adult behaviors and not prepared for the adult consequences.
In all of this talk about “rights” the narcissist heads for the tall grass when someone mentions the attendant “responsibilities” that go with those rights.
Are you a married man?
Ever had a child aborted?
Enjoy using women as your personal sperm ashtray?
What’s behind your pro-abortion apologetics. Man up, dude and come clean.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
attributed by Dougendowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. –DOIRights are not attributed. Any government who ‘gives/attributes’ rights can take them away. These unalienable rights are universal to human beings, and even those who reject the existence of their creator fare far better when a government is established upon these truths. Whether slavery or abortion, people have attempted to get around this whole equality issue by redefining WHO is a person…sound familiar? Cue CC.
klynn73,
Brilliant take on DOI.
Don’t worry CC, I’ve got you covered on this one. “But I only want unlimited orgasms! Why can’t I kill anyone that gets in the way of my orgasms?”
Doug, I didn’t claim that “little one” is the meaning of fetus NOW, but that is once was; now it’s a scientific term that means “member of a species of mammal in utero, for humans post six weeks” or something like that (it is still used for animals other than humans). But it is correct to say that it is DERIVED from the original meaning of the Latin word which is “young one,” “baby animal,” “little one,” etc. I’m not going to push it farther than that.
But I do have to ask WHY you are so opposed to even a secondary meaning for fetus that gives it a positive emotional connotation? So opposed that you call anyone who brings up or claims such a connotation a “rascal” and declare that he has some nefarious or dishonest purpose in mind? The fetus itself, I can guarantee, does generate a very positive emotion in most pregnant women. Why object to the idea that the word used for the fetus might suggest that?
Repeat with me, Doug: “Because I don’t want to acknowledge that this is a human being, that’s why! Acknowledging the truth bothers me!”
There, that wasn’t so hard, was it?
ok – how is this? I just looked thru a book that is available on http://www.liveaction.org (and at bookstorses… Why Pro-Life? by Randy Alcorn
on page 33 I believe, it actually says what the various translations of fetus is. so – take a look! so you will some variations on a theme! ;) And Doug (I do get snarky, BTW) this is a great book to read – full of information and introduction to various sources for pro-life info. Let me know what you think.
Remember – there is much forgiveness waiting for repentant sinners – including those who have performed abortions, had an abortion, counseled for abortions, helped pay for abortions, driven for abortions, held secrets for abortions and defended for abortions.
Knowledge is power. Read, know, love big. Then ask yourself – is it right for the bigger and stronger to hurt the weak? Is it ok for the bigger/stronger to kill the weak? And if it’s not ok – shouldn’t I be consistent about that in all cases?
Is there another way to look at this issue that allows everyone to live? Is there another approach? Put succinctly – if I was the little guy, would I be ok with this done to me, without being able to fight back? Would it be ok for this to happen to those I love (spouse, children, etc.). then look for the loving response.
Let me know.
Ah – a rest, good food and feeling better is a way not to be too snarky! :)
Wishing you all the loving and good answer. The golden rule is golden for a reason.
Newsflash: These decisions are made before the clothes come off. That’s the narcissistic immaturity of abortion: people engaging in adult behaviors and not prepared for the adult consequences.
Gerard, I think it’s better to prevent unwanted pregnancies than to end them via abortion. But it’s not a “perfect world” and we do have many unwanted pregnancies.
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In all of this talk about “rights” the narcissist heads for the tall grass when someone mentions the attendant “responsibilities” that go with those rights.
It’s not the responsibility of everybody to continue every pregnancy. I realize that you believe differently, but this is a matter of philosophy, religion, etc.
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Are you a married man? Ever had a child aborted? Enjoy using women as your personal sperm ashtray?
Yeah, I’m married for 11 years now, my only marriage and I was 41 at the time. Never got a woman pregnant.
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What’s behind your pro-abortion apologetics. Man up, dude and come clean.
We know that some people think that abortion should be illegal. We know that some people think it should be legal. Do we, as a society, need to enforce your desire (that abortion should not be a legal choice) on a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy? I say no.
klynn73: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are attributed by Doug endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. –DOI
There were those among the “Founding Fathers” that felt this way, yes. It was a matter of unprovable belief then, as it is now. It is an idea, rather than any necessary reality, and it was really aimed at telling England’s King George to screw off, at the time. Other than white, male landowners, it was really not wholly applied in practice.
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Rights are not attributed.
Yeah, they really are. And that’s what you want – you want the right to life to be attributed to the unborn. You want us to give them different status than what they have now.
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Any government who ‘gives/attributes’ rights can take them away. These unalienable rights are universal to human beings, and even those who reject the existence of their creator fare far better when a government is established upon these truths.
Yes, government can take away freedom, even life, at times. What we have, all around the world, for thousands of years, is the massively prevalent Birth Standard for rights and personhood. I don’t know of any society that has given full rights to the unborn. This is not to say that it’s impossible, though it would open up an incredible can of worms, in my opinion – how far would we go to protect the interest of the unborn, versus what the pregnant woman might do?
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Whether slavery or abortion, people have attempted to get around this whole equality issue by redefining WHO is a person…sound familiar?
Personhood has never been deemed to be fully present among the unborn, as far as I know, not now, and not ever in history, the world over. There has been, and still is in some places, slavery, and I am not for taking away the rights that those who might be slaves now have in the US. I’m also not for taking away the rights that women now have with respect to their own pregnancies.
Doug, I didn’t claim that “little one” is the meaning of fetus NOW, but that is once was; now it’s a scientific term that means “member of a species of mammal in utero, for humans post six weeks” or something like that (it is still used for animals other than humans). But it is correct to say that it is DERIVED from the original meaning of the Latin word which is “young one,” “baby animal,” “little one,” etc. I’m not going to push it farther than that.
Lori, okay – I was going with just the flat statement, which sure seems like it’s saying that’s what the meaning is now.
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But I do have to ask WHY you are so opposed to even a secondary meaning for fetus that gives it a positive emotional connotation? So opposed that you call anyone who brings up or claims such a connotation a “rascal” and declare that he has some nefarious or dishonest purpose in mind? The fetus itself, I can guarantee, does generate a very positive emotion in most pregnant women. Why object to the idea that the word used for the fetus might suggest that?
I don’t object to it. In fact, I assumed there is some implication that the emotional connotation “must be there,” and it’s that part where my objection lies, i.e., “Hey, it ain’t necessarily so.” If our rascally old scallywag is sinning, then I say it’s a sin of omission – that the “might suggest that” part that you mention isn’t presented that way, that rather there’s a “has to be that way” sense.
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Repeat with me, Doug: “Because I don’t want to acknowledge that this is a human being, that’s why! Acknowledging the truth bothers me!” There, that wasn’t so hard, was it?
No, but I’ve never argued against that, in the first place. A huge number of times, I’ve agreed that the unborn in this argument are “human beings” as far as being living human organisms, as much as you and I are.
There is nothing there that bothers me at all.
Yeah, they really are. And that’s what you want – you want the right to life to be attributed to the unborn. You want us to give them different status than what they have now.
Do you mean go back to the status they had in 1972 as unborn persons under the law? You mean that? Until Roe V Wade of course.
The preborn are human persons. There is nothing else they could possibly be, Doug.
North Dakota seems to be on the right track!! WOOOT!
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-north-dakota-house-passes-bill-criminalizing-killing-unborn-from-c
on page 33 I believe, it actually says what the various translations of fetus is. so – take a look! so you will some variations on a theme! And Doug (I do get snarky, BTW) this is a great book to read – full of information and introduction to various sources for pro-life info. Let me know what you think.
Joy, on page 33 it starts off saying, “Like toddler and adolescent, the terms embryo and fetus don’t refer to nonhumans but to humans at particular stages of development.”
Here again, I just have to shake my head. Why not say, “refer to humans at particular stages of development…”? What is said is just plain false, because they most certainly do refer to nonhuman species as well. The author is letting propaganda overwhelm the truth, there. I think maybe he’s a rapscallion…. ; )
Now then, after all the discussion that’s occurred on this thread, and with all the imput from Lori, I do think my original objection may have been too much. While I still feel that “Fetus means ‘little one’ ” is sort of a shoot-from-the-hip deal, with things implied that are not necessarily true, my first feeling was that way too, i.e., “No, it does not mean that.”
In going through the discussion, and looking at what a word means, translation, here anyway, is certainly called for, and it’s indeed of Latin derivation, and even if it means going back into time and relatively infrequent usage, Lori made a good case that it can indeed mean that, or that at least it was formerly used that way at times. At the very least, we have to think about shades of meaning, and thus my feeling that the word “does not mean that” was wrong, because the meaning could be extended that far.
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Is there another way to look at this issue that allows everyone to live? Is there another approach? Put succinctly – if I was the little guy, would I be ok with this done to me, without being able to fight back? Would it be ok for this to happen to those I love (spouse, children, etc.). then look for the loving response.
I hear you there. I look at things in a similar way – would I want freedoms taken from those I love, without a good enough reason?
(Doug): Yeah, they really are. And that’s what you want – you want the right to life to be attributed to the unborn. You want us to give them different status than what they have now.
(Carla): Do you mean go back to the status they had in 1972 as unborn persons under the law? You mean that? Until Roe V Wade of course.
The preborn are human persons. There is nothing else they could possibly be, Doug.
Carla, the unborn were not accorded personhood prior to Roe. While deeming personhood to be there would certainly result in abortion being illegal, that abortion was illegal does not necessarily mean that personhood was attributed. Killing the unborn was not seen as murder, for example, in the main, and abortions were not seen as the killing of a person.
Abortion was legal before, during and after the writing of the Constitution. It began to become illegal in the 1800’s, due in large part to the influence of doctors who felt that midwives were encroaching on their rightful territory, i.e. the docs were losing money.
“Human being” can’t really be argued, but personhood is a separate thing.
I would have to disagree with you that killing the unborn was not seen as murder prior to Roe! Of course it was. They were called ILLEGAL abortions for a reason.
The preborn are human persons. Endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. :)
I don’t give a fig what Roe says. It is bad law based on lies and technology confirms what I believe. It will have to be revisited as 4D ultrasound has given us a window into the womb that we did not have in 1973.
And here we are again Doug. Always ring around the rosy with you.
John
If it’s just an isolated incident I’m not sure that would be enough to shut them down. I think if a pattern were shown than that could lead to them losing their license. That’s assuming they are required to be licensed.
Carla
Long before ultra sounds at least some of the medical community had to know those were babies in their mothers wombs and not masses of tissue. Davinci painted Embryo In The Womb in the 1400’s. He got the material for his painting from having had observed cadavers. Think about how much exposure medical students have to cadavers, how many scientists experiment on animals. They knew they just decided women didn’t have the intellutual capacity or the right(?) to know what there very wombs carried.
Carla, it’s not “ring around the rosy,” it’s that “illegal” does not necessarily mean the same thing as being murder.
I don’t disagree with you on the physical reality of the unborn. As to what technology shows, it’s interesting but not really at argument. It’s when we get to the attribution of rights and personhood that we come to the abortion debate.