Abortions in Kansas plunge post-Tiller; update on Scott Roeder
Although I believe it was just as wrong for Scott Roeder to murder late-term abortionist George Tiller (pictured right) as it was wrong for Tiller to murder preborn babies, the fact is that abortions have plunged in Kansas in the wake of Tiller’s death. According to the Wichita Eagle on March 31:
Mid- to late-term abortion in KS has declined from about 300 per year to only one in 2010, following the 2009 murder of Wichita abortion provider George Tiller, who specialized in late-term procedures.
According to state records, the one abortion that took place after 22 weeks in 2010 was because the fetus was diagnosed with anencephaly, a fatal condition in which most of the brain – and frequently the skull and scalp surrounding it – fails to develop.
On a wider scale, according to the Wichita Eagle on March 30:
The KS Dept. of Health and Environment released preliminary figures Tuesday that showed 8,338 abortions last year, 12% less than in 2009, and 32% less than in 2000. One possible reason for last year’s decline is the May 2009 killing of physician George Tiller, whose Wichita clinic was known for performing late-term procedures and remains closed.
Meanwhile, I received the following update on Roeder. This was written by someone who visits him who I don’t know, although some of the information is corroborated on Wiki…
Scott Roeder has been moved to a medium security facility in Lansing, KS. He is able to go outdoors, work with an animal training program, apply for a minimum wage job, and be out of his cell for hours a day….
This happened such a short time after Scott was transferred from the infamous El Dorado maximum security prison, where he was in his cell 23 hours a day, could only shower twice a week – escorted and chained, got to go outside only 1 hour in a space the size of a dog run, and was harassed by unsympathetic guards….
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
WOW! From 300 in a year to just 1. That is quite astounding.
We have alot of numbers from the report on the Kansas abortion decline at http://www.lifenews.com/2011/03/29/kansas-abortions-drop-12-percent-in-2010-lowest-since-1988/
This happened such a short time after Scott was transferred from the infamous El Dorado maximum security prison, where he was in his cell 23 hours a day, could only shower twice a week – escorted and chained, got to go outside only 1 hour in a space the size of a dog run, and was harassed by unsympathetic guards….
Boo-hoo, Scott. You should have thought about that before you killed Tiller and damaged the reputation of the pro-life movement for years to come. Operation Rescue was on the verge of getting Tiller’s medical license revoked and obtaining justice for Christen Gilbert’s family. We could have saved those babies without your violent “help.” And now, Tiller’s a martyr for the opponents of prenatal rights. Unsympathetic? You better believe it.
I hear you Kelsey: no matter how much we condemn violence, the abortion advocates will use Roeder’s name against everyone.
I’m glad that other people who changed their minds about abortion lived to tell us. When people like Bernard Nathanson, Norma McCorvey, and Abbie Johnson live to tell us how and why they changed their hearts and minds, everyone wins.
I agree ninek and others. Even though the numbers are down, all members of the human family deserve LIFE, including Tiller. I would have totally wanted his conversion – for the sake of his soul and others. By cutting his life short, Roeder has robbed Tiller and others of so much.
Roeder – epic fail in the morality department. I hope that he comes to see that the killing of Tiller was the opposite of what Pro-Life is all about. A huge mistake on all accounts.
Sorry for going a little off topic, but speaking of Kansas, what ever happened with the Phill Kline trial? It’s been a while, and I seem to have missed the outcome.
It is a bit sad that the reason these numbers are falling is because of fear of terrorist actions like this and others. This story is nothing to be proud of and anyone who says “yea its wrong but at least the abortion numbers are down…” is just supporting fear and terrorism within our own borders.
Biggz, why don’t you collect the data on which of the mothers regrets the birth of her child so we can publish them here.
If late-term abortions are so medically needed, where are they being done now in Kansas? Hospitals?
Or were the bulk of Tiller’s prenatal victims killed for convenience? Or hunting kids with Down syndrome, etc.? Was there something about Tiller or his area that solicited abortiond and caused the numbers to be so high compared to now?
What could be more of an act of terror than killing a baby in the place where he or she should be most safe?
do you ever get the sense you’re caught in a chapter in the old testament and can’t get out? I mean, the guy was gunned down right in front of the chapel he was “in good standing” at. It just feels like if it boiled down to a chapter in the Old Testament it would just fit in quite well.
and,golly, though he is a murderer, does anyone pray for his soul? Or bring him socks? I’ve heard more sympathy for Bradley Manning, who committed treason. Innocent men far away died b/c of his betrayal.
I attend an ELCA church, and it’s really disquieting to have prayers offered up for Mr Tiller’s soul and for support of his work, each year. I feel that maybe G*d who said “No- Kill!” “No Idols!” is being blasphemed, and by even staying there, I’m participating. I wonder why this church has a food pantry, but not a baby clothes pantry, if that makes sense. We are new to this denomination. Our children are being raised in it- it’s wonderful that way- but I wonder about the “next step” into holiness……..
I love this argument… The population of the USA is split about whether or not abortion is morally wrong. However we can all agree that shooting a man not once but twice and eventually killing him in his church on Sunday is Murder to make a political point. That is terrorism.
Ninek – How about we list the number of women who are very happy with their choice to abort their pregnancy or the number of women who had to drive to the next state to get abortion services. I bet both of my numbers trump yours…
Abortion is a legal medical procedure in America and has been for the last 40 years… I understand you disagree with this law but it is the law. I don’t think political assassination has ever been legal here… You are mixing your arguments without correlation…
1 LT Abortion last year & we pass a Fetal Pain Bill. Personhood Now!…in memoriam of the 8,338 babies who lost their lives last year.
No, I’m not. I want to see real testimonies and statistics of mothers who regret giving birth. If abortion numbers are down, and you say that they only gave birth because of fear (here’s your quote: the reason these numbers are falling is because of fear of terrorist actions like this and others), then it should be easy to find these mothers. If they only gave birth because they were afraid of being shot, then surely they must truly regret having given birth. So, Biggz, let’s see the testimonials of mothers who fearfully gave birth to avoid being shot that now regret that their children are living.
Waiting.
Ok, the rest of you, while he’s off getting his stats together, will likely agree on this more realistic scenario:
A mother who gets a late term abortion probably didn’t spend the entire pregnancy waiting for her abortion appointment. It is more likely that the desire for an elective late term abortion is the result of a crisis. For example, a woman may be 4 or 5 months along in her pregnancy before she discovers her lover or spouse is cheating. Or, she may be far along her pregnancy when the bottom falls out of her financial situation. There are many reasons that a mother might panic late in a pregnancy. Now, if you are in a crisis and lo! There’s a Tiller in town who will rush to destroy your child, then you can act on a crisis and do something irreversible very quickly. BUT, if you are in a crisis and there is no one around to help you kill your baby, then what? Maybe after a few days or a week, a mother realizes, “OK, my man has taken off, but you know what? This baby still deserves a chance at life.”
I’m willing to bet that Tiller was taking advantage of women in crisis. And I’m willing to bet that we won’t find 300 or more mothers in Kansas that look at their chubby-cheeked children and sigh, “I wish you were dead.”
Ninek – You are misunderstanding my statement. The reason the numbers are going down is due to the lack of access. The fear of terrorism is the reason there is a lack of access. No doctor who loves their family would open an abortion clinic in Kansas due to fear. Even doctors who see the need for abortion services in that state who want to brave the terrorism for their patient’s health can’t find landlords who will lease them space because they too are afraid of terrorism on their property. The women of Kansas who want abortion services must go to another state for service. I don’t think that any women who wants an abortion is going to have the baby just because they can’t get local access, they just drive to the next state where the threat of terrorism is a bit lower but not much…
Ninek – “I’m willing to bet that Tiller was taking advantage of women in crisis.”
Oh yes because women are so dumb that they cannot make choices under stress… They are SO weak minded that a big bad doctor can take advantage of their poor little brains… and the sexism of the anti-choice movement rears its ugly head once again. Let me guess, maybe if these girls were not such sluts and could keep their legs together there would be no need for abortion? Let’s shame the sluts!!! Every single anti-choice person I talk to will eventually make the statement “…and the way girls dress today…” if you talk to them long enough. This is the very center of the anti-choice movement; it is simply about shaming any way of life outside of what the bible says is ok. You do realize that most of us do not care what the bible says nor are we required in America to live by its Christian laws any more than Sharia law…
Interesting hypothesis, Biggz. I didn’t know that one individual shooting another individual created a huge fear of terrorism throughout the country. It seems what you’re trying to say is that because one radical shot someone, all pro-lifers are crazy terrorists. But if that’s true, then you’re a racist with ties to the Nazis and who thinks blacks are human weeds. After all, the founder of Planned Parenthood was, so I guess that means all pro-aborts are, at least if we use your logic.
Oh look, while I was typing, Biggz provided us with a textbook example of an ad hominem logical fallicy. As for what you actually said, you must’ve tried very hard to find a pro-lifer who calls anybody a slut, although I’ve heard pro-choicers do it plenty of times. You did just now actually.
And I’m willing to bet that we won’t find 300 or more mothers in Kansas that look at their chubby-cheeked children and sigh, “I wish you were dead.”
I guess Ninek doesn’t realize that lots of women actually facilitate making their “chubby cheeked children” dead due to child abuse. In the strange world of the anti-abortion movement, all children are welcome. Guess they’ve never worked in child protective services.
I’m willing to bet that Tiller was taking advantage of women in crisis.
Women are just such silly, stupid, and child like creatures who just can’t make decisions on their own. And if they have a medical emergency which requires an emergency abortion, they can bleed to death. That’s just “God’s way.” And they’ll go to heaven while their chubby cheek baby, if it survives, won’t have a mother. That’s just God’s way…
Although I believe it was just as wrong for Scott Roeder to murder late-term abortionist George Tiller (pictured right) as it was wrong for Tiller to murder preborn babies
Talk about “moral equivalence.” There should be no question as to why those in the reality based community doesn’t respect the “pro-life” movement. And why should we care about what Scott Roeder is doing? Is he becoming some kind of folk hero? Odd…
Yea one madman with one bullet…. Do a little research NAR! Dr Tiller was shot and almost killed once before by a woman. He recovered from his injuries over the course of several months and then went back to work “because he was in it for the money… yea right.” He bought a bullet proof car and vest so the next crazy person had to shoot and kill him at his own church on a Sunday while he was with his family… There have been 7 doctors who have been shot by “pro-lifers” and countless clinic bombings. BOMBINGS!!! I grew up in Spokane WA and just in the time I was in high school there were not one but TWO clinics BOMBED one of which was 4 blocks from my house! NAR if you can’t not even bother to Google a little research then your comments are a waste of all of our time.
Reality based community recognizes that a human dies in an abortion. People who support abortion cite reasons for such action. For us pro-lifers – there is no justification for the violence or carnage, of abortion or any other such thing – including the poor actions of Scott Roeder.
And no self-respecting Pro-Lifer pays much attention to Scott Roeder except the condition of his soul, and hope for others NOT to follow his poor example. But making him a folk hero? Hardly. we are profoundly embarrassed for him (and by him), upset at him for doing violence to another human being, and realize that we can not undo what damage he has done – not only to Dr. tiller but to the pro-life movement as the media and pro-aborts paint all pro-lifers with the same brush.
Will someone please furnish us with the statistics and testimonials of women who regret that their children were born?? Waiting. Waiting…
Abortion fans: so nice of you tell all the women who walk into an abortion clinic: ‘good that you are here because you are going to be an abusive mother anyway.’ AND, one would expect that there are NO child protective services of any kind in your state, nor are there ANY cases of child abuse, because after all, abortion is the solution to child abuse. Guess what folks, there is NO child abuse in New England because they are all so enlightened and pro-abortion! Now, I’m waiting for that proof, too.
Does your bicycle routinely go backwards? Here’s YOUR quote again, in case your memory or reading comprehension is faulty (notice how it doesn’t mention the word access):
the reason these numbers are falling is because of fear of terrorist actions like this and others
” I would have totally wanted his conversion – for the sake of his soul and others. ”
Really? Conversion to what? He was an active, devout member of a denomination that accepts abortion as moral.
Ah yea thank you ninek… your ability to take quotes out of context and completely ignore further explanations is still as sharp as ever… Nobody is saying that abortion is the right choice for every single pregnancy in America. We are saying you do not have the right to make that determination for anyone else. I am sure there are women who decided to have an abortion who regret it afterward, as I am sure there are women who didn’t have an abortion who wished they had. Some mothers decide to kill their children by drowning them in their car or shooting them. Some choose to just leave them at home and not come back or give custody to the father. Read these stories and see if you think some of these women might regret not getting an abortion. I regret them being mothers in the first place.
AUGUSTA, Ga — A 22-year-old woman fatally stabbed her two children, 1 and 3, inside a convenience store bathroom Thursday, police said.
A worker at the Food Mart store in south Augusta told police she saw the woman enter the restroom with the two children, a boy and girl, and then heard a scream, Richmond County Sheriff Ronnie Strength said. The worker called 911, and when deputies arrived they forced the door open and found the woman on the floor, holding a steak knife and covered in the children’s blood. Jordon Hawes, 1, and Shakayla Hawes, 3, were pronounced dead upon arrival at the Medical College of Georgia Hospital. Both died of multiple stab wounds to the chest, Chief Deputy Coroner Mark Bowen said. Jeanette Michelle Hawes was charged with two counts of murder and with possession of a knife during the commission of a crime. She was lodged in the Richmond County Jail. Personnel at the jail said they did not know if the woman had obtained an attorney, and other county officials could not be reached. “Michelle went to the bathroom and I heard the children crying,” said store clerk Amanda Thomas. A moment later, Thomas said, “I heard a different sound that didn’t sound right. I went back there to get the door opened and I couldn’t get it opened and I didn’t hear anything.” Thomas and two other customers in the store said they weren’t sure what to do when they heard the screaming, the television station said. She said Hawes was a regular customer and seemed different when she entered the store Thursday. “I felt something wasn’t right about her. I had no idea she did anything to those kids,” Thomsas said. As police led her out, Thomas said Hawes appeared detatched. “She wasn’t crying. she didn’t show any emotion,” she said. A witness, Sheila Langston, said she saw one of the children being removed in a bag. `The mother didn’t have any remorse. She wasn’t crying, nothing,” Langston said.
~~~~
Tampa Mother Says She Killed Her Teen Kids for Being ‘Mouthy’
A mother in Tampa, Florida has admitted in detail to killing her two teen-aged children, police said. Police checking on the family at the request of a relative found Julie K. Schenecker, 50, on the back porch of her home Friday morning, dressed in blood-covered clothing, according to a police statement. They found her son, Beau Powers Schenecker, 13, dead in the family’s SUV, which had been parked in the garage, the statement said. Calyx Powers Schenecker, 16, was in an upstairs bedroom, also dead. “She did tell us that they talked back, that they were mouthy,” Tampa police spokeswoman Laura McElroy told CNN affiliate WTSP.
How many more examples would you like? My Google search turned up over 400,000 hits…
Well so many people claim to be devout when they actually habitually sin and sin badly. Conversion in it’s true sense makes goodness completely visible. If we are talking about Christianity – then one is supposed to be so Christo-centric, so that all if one’s actions copy and exemplify Christ. Tiller in no way did that if he helped end the life of pre-born human children.
Conversion was for him to do what was truly good – and that he was truly following the good in all circumstances. Performing abortions, at any stage, does not pass that test. Even the Hippocratic oath formally prohibited medical professionals from aiding and performing abortions. Too bad those standards were watered down too.
Really? Conversion to what? He was an active, devout member of a denomination that accepts abortion as moral.
Yea he was killed in his CHURCH!!! His Pastor Wept!
http://www.happilychildfree.com/ann.htm
Surely someone else has heard of this column? It’s one of her most famous.
citing examples of women who need help does not justify abortion.
if a woman needs medical or emotional help, that is what she should receive – not abortion. If a woman needs help with education, she should get educational help, not help with abortion.
So again – a utilitarian sense of human relationships and how we ‘need’ to kill others before maybe someone else would hurt or kill them. In the token of utilitarianism – how does 400,000 examples of parents doing the wrong thing make more acceptable the purposeful death of over 50 million human children, in the U.S. alone? The utilitarian model would have to be a positive result – and this is not even 1%. Try again.
And next time – why not recognize the humanity of what is being lost via abortion? That would be the correct response. How can we help parents who are struggling? There must be an answer other than help them to kill their children via abortion.
Remind me of the name of the pro abort who drove by and murdered a peaceful pro life man outside of an abortion clinic.
There is no standard set by the AMA that says abortion is wrong, nor is there a quote in the bible that says abortions are wrong. You may interpret some of the passages in the bible as saying that but the vast majority of Christians disagree with you. Don’t believe me? If Christianity is the largest religion in America “not the world that title goes to Islam”
2008 Adult Christians in America — 173.402 x 1000
2008 Adult Non-Christians in America — 8,796 x 1000
1 out of 10 women are non-Christian
1 out of 4 women have had an abortion
“He was an active, devout member of a denomination that accepts abortion as moral.”
Sort of. He was excommunicated by his original church because he was commiting abortions and refused to quit. He then joined an apostate social club masquerading as a church.
“Yea he was killed in his CHURCH!!! His Pastor Wept!”
Uh, huh. Did pastor weep for Tiller’s victims?
Just askin’
I’m not trying to justify abortion with that post. Ninek asked for examples, I gave him a few to read and thats all.
“not the world that title goes to Islam”
Not.
2 billion Christians
1.5 billion Muslims
This despite the fact that Christians don’t execute apostates as is common in Islamic countries.
“You may interpret some of the passages in the bible as saying that but the vast majority of Christians disagree with you.”
Not.
The vast majority of Christians are Catholics and Orthodox which officially eschew even contraception. The view that most Christians are protestants is the result of parochial American navel gazing.
Perhaps our abortion fan didn’t understand what he himself said and what he himself must prove:
I didn’t ask for anecdotes of women who killed their children, especially since said anecdotes do NOT prove that said mothers had refrained from aborting children out of fear and were in fact ‘forced’ to have them. What I would like is proof that the abortion numbers in Kansas dropped due to fear of terrorism, and I would like proof that these mothers wish their children were in fact dead.
Waiting.
“* The figures showed 40.1 percent of all abortions done in Kansas were repeat abortions with 9.5 percent of women having had two abortions already, 3.6 having had three, and 1.9 percent of women having had four or more abortions previously.”
This data point is very important because a woman can only have one first abortion. She can have many repeats. This demonstrates that while there are enough abortions committed to make outrageous claims like “1 in 4 women has had an abortion” the fact that it is the same women having them means that the ratio is much much lower. More like one in 10. More for some groups. Less for others
“What I would like is proof that the abortion numbers in Kansas dropped due to fear of terrorism, ”
Wouldn’t terrorism cause an increase? I am thinking of the terrorism of the boyfriend demanding she abort.
“They cried in a loud voice, O [Sovereign] Lord, holy and true, how long now before You will sit in judgment and avenge our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?”
When I read this passage I wonder what the motivation was behind the question. Were they asking GOD to be patient in the hope that the wicked would repent or were they lobbying GOD to judge quickly?
Just exactly how does GOD go about the doing ‘HIS vengence’ thing?
Does HE sit patiently and wait for the murderer to reap what she/he has sown?
Does HE allow death and adversity to quickly overtake the manslayer?
Does HE take a hands off approach and let the curse of bloodguiltiness follow it’s inexorable course?
Does HE dispatch a destroying angel or just give a little nudge to a flesh and blood avenger?
I know that GOD is not slow as humans understand slow, but HE is patient, desiring that none should perish without salvation, but that all should be redeemed and restored thru the perfect and complete work of Jesus.
But GOD’s patience is not infinite. The ‘book’ is repleat with examples where HE judged the guilty in the land of the living and did not wait for them die in their sin.
When I consider Tiller and Roeder from the pre-natal childs point of view it is difficult for me to imagine him/her quoting scripture to Roeder and chastising him for the damage his act of violence did to the ‘pro-life’ movement.
I can imagine the pre-natal child lamenting the death of a fellow human, even one as wicked George Tiller.
Innocence recoils from violence.
If “the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart.” then, would it not be possible, even probable that HE was grieved that HE had given life and breath to a barbarian like George Tiller, free will and all?
Would GOD have the same measure of regret and grief that HE gave breath and life to a Scott Roeder who, as far as we know, only killed one man. A man who was directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of pre-natal children and perhaps a few pregnant women?
[‘One fool can ask more questions than a hundred wise men/women can answer.’
I am tasked with finding the one hundred wise women/men.]
You have to wonder if, when Martin Luther splintered the Church into thousands of shards, he ever thought that there would be “churches” who take the name “Christian” while calling abortion a moral and laudable act. You might as well have a “Christian” “church” where the Bible is routinely spat upon or burned.
The ELCA is indeed very pro-abortion. I wrote a blog post analyzing their “Social Statement on Abortion” here: http://catholicphoenix.com/2011/01/04/the-elca-and-abortion/
Their stance on abortion was the catalyst for my conversion to Catholicism.
Biggz, abortion may be legal but morality is not the same as legality. Black people were persons even when the law said they weren’t. Jewish people were persons even when the law said that they weren’t. Unborn children are persons even though the law says that they aren’t.
Hippie, are you trying to use logic? Abortion fans do not like the L word! ;>)!
Some mothers decide to kill their children by drowning them in their car or shooting them.
The proaborts promised that child abuse would be non-existent once abortion was legalized because “every child will be wanted”. But child abuse has increased since abortion was legalized as the truly wise predicted it would.
Common sense dictates that violence begets violence.
As others have pointed out, it is so strange that pro-aborts claim there will be child abuse if we do not allow abortion. Abortion is legal–all the “unwanted” children are dead, so why is there so much child abuse?
Wow Engima (or is it Enigma?)! That article is fascinating! It’s a deep look into a dark, sad, lonely, loveless soul.
Here are a couple of quotes that caught my eye.
“Every mother wants her daughter to be beautiful and popular, especially if she wasn’t. When the daughter turns out to be neither, the mother feels let down.”
No, every good mother want’s her daughter to be happy and loved! Her daughter is already beautiful. As for popular, who really cares about that?
“When a young couple has to miss “the party of the year” because the sitter didn’t show up, they can’t help resenting the child who kept them home.”
That party might be full of fake people, but your baby will genuinely love you!
I’d rather have a wife and baby that love me, than going to any party, no matter how fancy.
I can’t stop feeling sorry for Ann. Everyone should read this article. Thanks Enigma ;)
“You expired Jesus but the source of life gushed forth for souls and the ocean of mercy opened up for the whole world. Oh fount of life. Unfathomable divine mercy. Envelope the whole world and empty yourself out upon us. Oh blood and water which gushed forth from the side of Jesus as a fountain of mercy for us; I trust in thee.”
Eternal Father, I offer you the body and blood; soul and divinity of your dearly beloved son our Lord Jesus Christ. In atonement for our sins; and those of the whole world.
For the sake of His sorrowful passion; have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Blessed Faustina
When the abortion supporters suggest that Roeder’s act has caused such fear that no one will come to Kansas to do abortions, they are crediting him with saving many lives by killing Tiller.
Is that intentional?
I notice that the abortion abolitionists seem pretty mellow when they feel that there is some hope defeating the abortion mentality, but they tend to act up at times when hope seems to be lost, such as during the tenure of a markedly pro-abortion president.
There were no killings of abortionists during the 8 years of Bush presidency.
Scott Roeder saved many mothers and babies from the hands (and needles) of a madman.
Wow. This one’s a keeper. It appears that Scott Roeder is a folk hero in the minds of some folks on this blog. And btw, the abortions were done in accordance with Kansas law. One of the abortions was done on a young teenager whose body would have, literally, been torn apart by giving birth. Nice to know that “pro-lifers” think that’s just A-OK!
But again, the above quote tells you all you need to know about the pro-life movement and why they get no respect. Only in the world of the pro-life movement is murder, in the name of saving fetuses, accepted. There should be no question as to why pro-lifers have the reputation of only caring about fetuses and those in vegetative states. If you’re a post-born abortion doctor or clinic staff, all bets are off.
The vast majority of Christians are Catholics and Orthodox which officially eschew even contraception.
But not in the US. According to the most recent data, Catholics comprise 23.9% of the population. And among those who identify as Catholic, the majority don’t subscribe to the official Vatican position. And those Catholic in the third world, who eschew contraception, are living in abject poverty.
And I love how you folks characterize pro-choice faiths as apostate. Once again, there should be no question about why you get no respect.
One person. Truthseeker. He obviously thinks of Roeder as some kind of folkhero. I do not. Talk to Truthseeker.
But now we will ALL be painted with the same stroke of that brush Truthseeker!!
CC,
Are you talking about Christin Gilbert? The young woman with Down Syndrome who couldn’t consent to sex much less an abortion? She died at the hands of Tiller.
CC,
And why couldn’t the young lady in question have had a C-section instead, delivering her baby whole?
The left is gonna paint whatever lies they want. As far as Scott Roeder being a folk hero? Probably to all the mother’s and dead babies Tiller tortured and killed. As long as people like CC and Planned Barrenhood fight to keep their right to commit abortion on viable babies and on unemancipated minors without parental notification some will likely continue to think of Roeder’s actions as their only means of justice. Is it a weakness in Christian faith to kill? YES. I think mine personally would be if a creep like Tiller ever commited his evil upon my wife or one of my daughters.
Everything Hitler did was legal. Were the people who illegally attempted to stop him by any means necessary heroes of villians?
I’m hoping to get an answer to this question especially from CC.
“And I love how you folks characterize pro-choice faiths as apostate.”
The ELCA was apostate long before they were pro abortion.
However, it is not too surprising that a pro abortion view would follow apostasy.
The pope’s encyclical letter on human life was one of those line in the sand moments when so many churches had to decide between right and wrong.
That statement is one of the defining moments in history.
All of the pop psychology about human sexuality is an utter joke compared to his analysis of the reality of human life and sexuality.
And no, I am not Catholic, but I can read and think.
“Everything Hitler did was legal. Were the people who illegally attempted to stop him by any means necessary heroes of villians?”
Especially those like Bonhoeffer, who were hanged for conspiring against Hitler.
“And I love how you folks characterize pro-choice faiths as apostate.”
It is self-evident when it comes to Christianity. Jesus constantly commanded us to help the poor, heal the sick, and lift up the downtrodden. He did not command us to destroy the poor, kill the sick, and stomp on the downtrodden. That is your “pro-choice faith” and it is unrecognizable to me.
Pallitto CC, Campbell JC, O’Campo P. Is intimate partner violence associated with unintended pregnancy? A review of the literature. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2005;6(3):217-235.
Wilson LM, Reid AJ, Midmer DK, Biringer A, Carroll JC, Stewart DE. Antenatal psychosocial risk factors associated with adverse postpartum family outcomes. CMAJ. 1996;154:785-799.
Pretty common knowledge that unintended pregnancy is a predictor of child abuse. The first study measured “consideration of abortion” during pregnancy–a factor found to be associated w/ child neglect. Hmmm.
Addressing Praxedes’ assertion that abortion has increased rates of child abuse: I’d say several wars, the militarization and hollowing out of our inner cities, increasing poverty and the decline of the living wage, etc. have contributed more to child neglect than the legalization of abortion. After all, women were *still* getting abortions before Roe..and lots of them. Your argument falls flat.
Women are just such silly, stupid, and child like creatures who just can’t make decisions on their own.
YES, THAT’S WHY THEY MUST BE PROTECTED AGAINST THE EVIL CPC’s at all cost! They just can’t understand what ABORTION ALTERNATIVES mean.
Biggz, I have worked as a child services social worker here in Philadelphia for more than five years. I have seen some pretty bad examples of abuse. The two examples you mentioned above sound like the parents were mentally ill. Who knows? Perhaps they were hearing command hallucinations telling them to kill their children.
I was in the Tampa area awhile ago, where Calyx and Beau Schnecker lived. The papers were full of stories about these young people and how much they were loved by the people in the community. Their father is in the army and participated in a walk for cancer in their name. You could tell that he really, really loved his children and misses them terribly. He has even estabished a scholarship fund in their names. I think that he treasures every moment he had with them and doesn’t wish they had been aborted.
There are many stressors invovled in child abuse cases, including drug and alcohol use; there is also a strong correlation between child and domestic abuse. Just to say that all these children were “unwanted” and imply that they “should have been” aborted is simplistic and not being cognizant of all the facts surrounding the issue. In many cases we are able to place abused and at-risk children with a relative and often they are able to receive monies for care of the children until they turn 18. It’s called “kinship care.” We;ve been able to help preserve many families this way. if there are no family members or friends willing or able to take the child, out-of-home care is the next option. Foster parents get a bad rap, which is unfortunate, because some of them are excellent. Some foster parents even adopt their foster kids. I’m not saying that the system is perfect — we have all heard horror stories of children that fall through the cracks — but there are many safeguards in place to identify and protect children at risk of abuse.
This is the very center of the anti-choice movement; it is simply about shaming any way of life outside of what the bible says is ok.
Is this true of the members of the “anti-choice” movement who are atheists or agnostic who don’t follow the bible? i don’t care what two consenting adults do (or wear) I just say don’t kill or hurt anybody.
John, gimme a break. The reason Luther broke from the church was because of the rampant immorality and corruption that the papacy was party to. Indulgences and other forms, remember?
And also gimme a break about splintering of churches. There were three deformations going on at the same time, two of which Luther had no control over and would have taken place even if he didn’t exist- Reformed and Anabaptist. Most of the demons splinter from those groups not Lutheranixn.
Futher more. Catholic church had many instances before 1517 and after of splintering. 1054 remember’? Or the catholic churches that broke with Rome over degrees in 1870 and later over Vatican 2. Your own church is not without its issues there.
And you may say you still got one church unlike us poor folks having many churches with different interpretations. Sorry but even there your argument fails since there is plenty of disagreements among Catholics on many different theological issues.
ECLA is Lutheran in name only. The denoms that do affirm historic Lutheran faith are WELS and LCMS.
CC,
We don’t need nor want respect from ignoramus bigots like you. As others point out ECLA already went apostate way before it became pro- abortion. It was that way when it compromised on distinctive Lutheran issues like faith alone, communion, third use of the law,Scriptures as absolute rule of faith for believers, etc.
Love it how CC can boast about how we get no respect when all CC does here is advertise hatred of Catholics and others over and over again out of spite and ignorance.
Uh why don’t you tell us how much percent of the population are Protestants? Funny you leave that part out after saying Catholics make up 23 percent and that they make up most Christians.
Punisher, I wasn’t bashing Luther – just wondering if he thought this would happen. I would say that no, he did not expect this to happen. Now there is a “church” that bears both Christ’s name and Luther’s name and yet that ”church” is a proponent of child murder.
Luther’s actions were a result of massive corruption within the Catholic Church. I could talk about his methods and his theology, but that doesn’t change the fact that we brought it on ourselves.
Honestly I doubt he would care. Truth trumps unity. (I know Orthodoxs who say Protestant denoms are extension of Catholic splintering.)
The reason why Tiller was in ECLA in the first place was because the LCMS won’t have anything to do with him because of his practices.
And any folks can have churches of their own and name them Catholic and support abortion.
We have plenty of Catholic politicians who support abortion. If only the pope deal with them the same way the LCMS dealt with Tiller!
Throwing them out would certainly be no big loss to the Catholic church.
“If only the pope deal with them the same way the LCMS dealt with Tiller!”
I read up on the Tiller excommunication when I first heard about it. Turns out that it was his congregation that excommunicated him. That is how they do it rather than having like a bishop or some individual in authority do it. After that he couldn’t join another congregation in that same denomination.
You have to hand it to a congregation that discovers one of their members is an abortionist and then goes to them and tells them to quit or they will be excommunicated. That tells you that the average pew sitter was willing to literally vote him out, because that is just what they did.
John Brown was considered a hero by those people and the families of people who were persecuted, enslaved, and killed for being black, part black, or desiring to abolish slavery. John Brown was known for taking the law into his own hands, killing several people in Kansas who were pro-slavery. We see his picture painted on the inside of the Kansas State mural depicting him holding a rifle in one hand and a bible in the other. He was hung. Not long after that happened, America found itself in a civil war killing each other for the same reasons John Brown lived and died for.
Again, Kansas finds itself at the epicenter of mortal and moral conflict about another injustice, and that is not based on race, but on age. (although, there is a corelation of # of abortions performed based on the race of the pre-born child, more black children die of abortion than any other race) After close to 40 years of “legalized” abortion, some folks have grown weary of wittnessing the continual injustice perpetrated on the preborn child, being made aware of their day after day slaughter, some, right up to and even after the due date, if an abortionist could be found to perform such a procedure. Tiller was one of those few who would. He was well known as doing such. No child was safe in the womb where Tiller was concerned. He, in esessence, made himself a target for those who had a John Brown-like mentality of taking justice into their own hands where the pre-born child is concerned. Now, there are reports of killing of pro-life demonstrators, molatov cocktails being thrown at pro-life silent prayer vigil participants, and mayors signing into law the closing of abortion alternative agencies.
Is America, again, on the verge of a civil war due to the immoral injustice of aborting her young? Will this be God’s permissive justice on this country as it has in the past when injustices to human beings were legal in our nation? Is a civil war taking place in one form or another already? Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, this was Our Lord speaking to St. Peter as St. Peter lobbed off the ear of a soldier ready to cart Jesus off to be slaughtered.
Please pray to end abortion. Please, also pray for the direction of our country.
delaineb
Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, this was Our Lord speaking to St.Peter as St.Peter lobbed off the ear of a soldier ready to cart Jesus off to be slaughtered.
That’s because the reason he came was to give his life for us. A scripture I like to remember when dealing with bullies is when Jesus told his disciples this was his second set of instructions to them concerning swords, when he told them if they didn’t have a sword to go and buy one. I’m not sure what’s held the hand of God back so for but when judgement does come I don’t think it’s going to be good. It might be because the leaders in the pro-death movement are mostly women that’s the only reason I can see but I think judgement is fixing to pay some very very confident people a call. That’s my hope anyway.
ninek
Sorry but everyone doesn’t win. There are a lot of babies that will never see the light of day. With the exception of physical violence I think everything that is legal should be done by the pro-life movement to stop these bullies. Everything and when there successful in shaming pro-lifers to silence because theres so adept at shifting blame I hope there own words and their own cousel defeat them.
Steve, What exactly did Salvi do that you think Scott Roeder would do?