Porn star aborting 5th baby – 2nd this year
UPDATE 4/29, 4:09p: Kacey Jordan has indeed killed her baby and is now eating Mexican food and prepping for a trip to the Caribbean. Her “3 weeks to put it in” is referring to an IUD…
4/28, 11:56a: I really have no words for this. This woman is mentally ill. Not even a hardcore pro-abort should agree there is nothing seriously wrong here.
When last I posted on porn star Kacey Jordan, she had just attempted to commit suicide after aborting what may have been Charlie Sheen’s baby on February 17.
This is pretty unbelievable, but Jordan has just tweeted that she’s pregnant again – 7 weeks – and planning again to abort. In fact, it sounds as if she is aborting her baby right now, so difficult to consider…
[HT: Twitter friend Damien]
Apr.29, 2011 4:09 pm |
Post-abortion |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Lord have mercy! She tweets that her lifestyle doesn’t permit her to (have a baby)…. she actually wants to keep this “pregnancy”. (It’s a baby, but she knows that…)
Kacey, Please change your lifestyle, don’t kill your fifth baby. How many more babies do you think God will give you? If you want a child one day, there are no guarantees you’ll be able to get pregnant and carry the baby to term. Use some common sense!
oh my. May the Lord show her her worth and her child’s worth. May she choose a different road for her work and her life. so tragic. Please pray for her and all other women who feel like they have no other choice. Lord have mercy.
My heart breaks for this woman. She is so lost and so without hope. She doesn’t understand the bondage she keeps putting on herself by the choices she makes. I know many might want to condemn her because she has had so many abortions, but I firmly believe when people know better they do better. She doesn’t get it. She doesn’t understand that all the feelings she has post-abortion are because of the abortion itself. She thinks this is an answer to her problems and she doesn’t understand it is the cause of it. I weep for her – I honestly do. I mean, can you imagine not understanding and you keep making the same choice over and over again? Can you imagine how tormented she must be? Pray for her, folks, and everyone like her. Cry out to God to move people into her life to speak the truth and love of Christ and pray she hears them. Imagine the condition of her soul and remember how much the Lord loves her. He created her, after all. Ugh. I’d love 5 minutes with this woman to minister to her. I’d love 5 minutes to look in her eyes and convey the love the Lord has for her. I’d wrap my arms around her and pray that as I held her she’d feel the deep love and passion of the Lord penetrate her heart…
How is it even possible for her to be disease free? I pray someone will help this sick, sick woman.
Too sad for words. Lord have mercy on us.
All I know is I pray that every child I know never sees this thing as a role model. So gross, it’s bad enough how low her self-esteem is herself and how she is too uneducated to have ever heard of the word adoption, but she should have had her tubes tied a long time ago. All hope seems lost for this one, I wonder if she ever went to college… studied basic biology (doubt it) and knows the HORRIFIC pain and scared emotions she puts those babies through. No different than ripping apart a 1 yr. old in murder. God have mercy on her, I sure as heck wouldn’t.
Sounds like a very irresponsible person who is making two responsible decisions if she is going to continue her lifestyle. Still a pretty sad story.
This poor woman has no idea of her value or her children’s. I pray she gets help. :(
‘responsible’ but not healthy for her body, her emotions, her soul. Too bad what she has treasured is not real. Too bad her sex-work is taking priority over what she should do to be healthy, mentally, physically and spiritually.
Lifestyle is not life. Her lifestyle is death. I pray she wakes up soon.
Next time some pro-choicer gives me the line about how no woman has an abortion lightly, I’m going to mention this woman. Five abortions overall and two in the same year?
Honestly. Why doesn’t she just go get her tubes tied? I’m sure she can find someone to do it, considering how she just keeps getting pregnant and having abortions.
I’m with you Brandolyn.
So heartbreaking
To be honest I also find the super judgmental comments on here so offensive. She is obviously in need of Christ’s love. I pray her aborted children intercede with her before God bringing her to full conversion.
The comments remind me of a statement Dave Reardon has made..”women are often socially aborted before they ever set foot into a clinic”
So true, and so obvious with her…there is more then one way to abort, body and soul. As we approach the Feast of Divine Mercy I am going to pray especially for her.
I say we stop giving her attention because that is what is yearning for. Just pray for her.
And why would you think it’s “a pretty sad story”, Biggz?? I’m surprised you’re not on here hailing her as some queen of CHOICE!! Responsible??? That would be learning from your mistake … not re-making the same ones over and over again.
I’m with you Brandolyn.
She is obviously hurting since she tried to commit suicide after the last one. My heart breaks for women like this. Our society has posioned girls. I am praying for her. Jesus still loves her. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
yes – love the sinner, hate the sin. Good point about Divine Mercy Sunday also.
I don’t get it, aren’t most porn “stars?” on the Pill or something?
And isn’t abortion supposed to be a private matter between a woman and her doctor? Why is she tweeting this for all the world to see?
MST, I think she is craving help, even if she won’t admit it. Abortion is horrible and she obviously she doesn’t want to do this. I don’t think she wanted the previous one either, based on her tweets to Charlie Sheen.
So sad. I will be praying for her.
How sad, I’m also 7 weeks pregnant. This is horrifying, another friend my baby will never have a chance to meet.
@Theresa. ***sad sigh*** I agree.
May God bring her to Himself, where all wounds can be healed.
Getreal – Yes this is a sad story. She is crying out for help. Abortion is not her problem it is a byproduct of her drug fueled lifestyle. It is a byproduct of her many bad decisions and the environment she grew up in. Choosing not to bring 5 children into her sad lifestyle is a smart decision. Many women do not want to take birth control due to the hormones it effects, however she stated she will be getting an IUD which should keep her from have to have a 6th abortion. When I read this story I don’t see 5 unborn fetuses, I see one young woman drowning in a sea of despair and trying to get by with the few tools her parents gave her. From what I have read her problems started when she was a child. Just the fact that she hangs out with Charlie Sheen says her life is not going in a healthy direction.
My heart breaks for this woman. She is so lost and so without hope. She doesn’t understand the bondage she keeps putting on herself by the choices she makes. I know many might want to condemn her because she has had so many abortions, but I firmly believe when people know better they do better. She doesn’t get it. She doesn’t understand that all the feelings she has post-abortion are because of the abortion itself. She thinks this is an answer to her problems and she doesn’t understand it is the cause of it. I weep for her – I honestly do. I mean, can you imagine not understanding and you keep making the same choice over and over again? Can you imagine how tormented she must be? Pray for her, folks, and everyone like her. Cry out to God to move people into her life to speak the truth and love of Christ and pray she hears them. Imagine the condition of her soul and remember how much the Lord loves her. He created her, after all. Ugh. I’d love 5 minutes with this woman to minister to her. I’d love 5 minutes to look in her eyes and convey the love the Lord has for her. I’d wrap my arms around her and pray that as I held her she’d feel the deep love and passion of the Lord penetrate her heart…
Amen, Brandolyn. Amen.
Biggz,
We all see the woman drowning in a sea of despair as well – but we also see her 5 unborn children as causalities to the lack of hope in Kacey’s life.
I speak for many pro-lifers when I say that I have a burden for both the woman and her babies.
Sometimes the inequity is very, very hard to swallow. This woman conceives over and over again, only to kill them all.
My heart breaks for all the infertile married couples out there who would give anything for the child this woman so casually and repeatedly destroys.
Life is definitely not fair.
“Choosing not to bring 5 children into her lifestyle” this is a fundemental flaw in pro-abort thinking. A new life is nothing but possibilities. Pregnancy and children change you, irrevocably, any parent will tell you that. Pro-aborts look at this and think ‘to bring a kid into that life? Better off dead!’ But pro-lifes look at this and think ‘maybe that 1st baby would have given her exactly what she needed to turn her life around!’ There needn’t have been 5 “responsible” abortions, the 1st moment she saw her growing baby on the prenatal ultrasound, the 1st time she heard the heartbeat, the 1st time she held him in her arms could have been the crossroads of this woman’s life where she chose a better life for her and her family. We used to tell (wo)men in society that got pregnant they needed to grow up, it isn’t about you anymore. We expected them to take all that newness of life and the responsibilities that go with it and run with them, become something better. Now society says there is no reason to make better choices, to rise above their self and their current situation, no! Just go ‘take care of’ the consequences and go back to how you were living before.
Maybe it wouldn’t have been the 1st child, maybe it would have been the love she saw the 1st showing towards the 2nd when she introduced them that drove her to betterment, or maybe it would be as simple as the changes to her body forcing her into a different profession that gave her a new chance at a better life. Or maybe she’d have 5 kids watched by a nanny while she filmed her porn. The point is that those pregnancies represented times and options she otherwise doesn’t have, opertunities and motivations to change that she was robbed of (even if it wass by her own hand).
Abortion simply returns a woman to her old life with te added emotional and possibly physical damage of the abortion, it quite litterally kills all options and opertunities. But new life wether one chooses to give him to a loving adoptive couple, a family member to raise, or raises him oneself, if filled with nearly limitless possibilities!
This is sad on so many levels. It’s frightening to even comprehend the number of lives that have been destroyed. To think even a single dollar of Planned Parenthood funding comes from federal funds is a disgrace. http://thechristianrepublic.com/?p=65 The innocent babies that are aborted didn’t have the opportuinity to choose parents. When will the women of our country realize they are falling prey to a very sophisticated system of genocide?
When WE ALL stand up and offer hope instead of killing.
Many women do not want to take birth control due to the hormones it effects, however she stated she will be getting an IUD which should keep her from have to have a 6th abortion.
Right, Biggz. Pro-aborts want all young girls to think that artificial BC is a magic fairy dust that protects them from any chance of pregnancy. The only method that’s 100% effective is abstinence. Playing Russian Roulette with BC isn’t smart unless a woman is willing to take responsibily to raise her child should she become pregnant. Oh, let’s include the male involved. It’s easy to forget about the guy (Daddy) because he’s usually running away, or worse, coercing her to abort her baby.
Jespren – Yes but the only option you would deny women is the option for their lives NOT to change. Yes this woman has had 5 abortions but her life has not changed at all. Now in this case maybe change would be a very good thing for her but for most women this large of a change could destroy or at the very least seriously disrupt their current lives they have worked so hard to make. Every option you guys offer will drastically change any woman’s life and there is no disputing it.
Janet – The IUD form of birth control has a success rate of over 99%. Just Google it and you will find all the studies backing up those numbers. Nobody claims that birth control is 100% effective in preventing pregnancy, but it’s pretty damn good at preventing MILLIONS of abortions. My wife has had an IUD for the last ten years and we have not been pregnant even once in those 10 years. Birth control works end of story. Furthermore don’t you think birth control is a good idea for porn stars and sex workers? Condoms and birth control for these professions are the same thing as hardhats and steel toed boots are to construction workers. Don’t bother giving me the “it’s not a profession” speech, it’s the oldest profession and was in full practice long before anyone had even heard of Jesus… Prostitutes have been on the job longer than the Pope.
big deal. if she didn’t conceive at all the the result would be the same thing. I had 2 abortions and my health is just fine. so who cares if she had 5 abortions.
My wife has had an IUD for the last ten years and we have not been pregnant even once in those 10 years. Birth control works end of story.
Right, because your one experience is proof-positive, good for all.
I’m not a doctor, but it makes sense that she (or you) may have any number of problems which could limit her/your fertility. Have you considered that? Maybe God has decided not to bless you with a child that you don’t want. It’s funny how those things happen.
You are wrong that BC prevents abortions. The sexual revolution has increased abortion. (I wish I had a citation, but I don’t.) You can’t measure how many abortions were prevented anymore than Obama can cite the number of “jobs saved” in a failing economy where unemployment is rising. (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.)
Thanks for referencing the Catholic Church. Now we know you’re the real Biggz, not an imposter!
An IUD is nothing but a personal abortion device. It does nothing to prevent conception and instead kills the embryo who’s trying to develop.
This is so sad. Though this young woman said she didn’t consider herself “fit” to be a mother, God thinks otherwise.
People who think porn isn’t harmful certainly aren’t counting the toll it takes on the personal lives of the people that are in the business. The human body is beautiful and marvelous, but porn is just plain ugly.
@ Biggz: she absolutely has the right to choose for her life to not chance, but choice comes BEFORE action, not AFTER. She’s already pregnant, she has already chosen the risks involved in whatever form of sex she participated in. Another life is already involved. She’s not claiming rape, she had willing sex and a well known, biologically correct outcome from that sex occured. It’s not the choice to reproduce or not (most) pro-life people are against, we are all for your personal choice to reproduce, but she’s already reproduced. A unique, living, and human person has come into being BECAUSE OF HER CHOICE. We are saying no one should have the choice- after they have reproduced- to kill that child, regardless of wether it is 7 weeks, 9 months, or 2 years old.
And IUDs are effect prevention against live births, not against pregnancy. While (most) of the newer ones are also hormonal and are to varying degrees protection against ovulation, the whole *point* to an IUD is that it’s a foreign object in the womb, it causes early term abortions. Placing a foreign object into the womb was how the majority of abortions were preformed before the suction abortion was invented as a ‘safer’ alternative. In the days before abortion was common, and still today in other countries, there were/are horrible stories about when the body built up a tolerance towards the IUD and babies were born or suffered late abortions/miscarriages, scarried, cut, clutching the IUD or with it grown into their bodies. It’s a horrible ‘effective’ life birth provention, but isn’t truly a ‘contraceptive’
all we can do is pray for this woman. it’s so sad. someone needs to reach out to her.
Laura87 says – “big deal. if she didn’t conceive at all the the result would be the same thing. I had 2 abortions and my health is just fine. so who cares if she had 5 abortions.”
It is a big deal, Laura. Five dead human beings is a HUGE deal. It’s tragic that you don’t see that…
God has described this SINdrome. He describes the lifestyle of the wicked in Romans 1:18-32. Kacey is senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful without natural affection, implacable. Oh how I hope that there were gospel-sharing Christians outside the killing place where she is murdering her baby. I hope they are speaking the truth in love to her. May she experience the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom, & repent of her evil ways & run to Jesus Christ for forgiveness. Otherwise, there is no hope for Kacey Jordan.
Please, wake up!! This is insanity…God will hear you if you cry out to Him. This is murder..that is a child that God has permitted you to have. Don’t abort this child..don’t you know someone wants this baby if you cannot care for it? God help you!!
This is madness. She is murdering her fifth child. Can’t she consider adoption?
I have to completely agree with Brandolyn and Theresa! This girl is in need of our prayers! I will also be lifting her up on Divine Mercy Sunday, as well as all of her “co-workers”. There is a lot of healing that needs to be done amongst women out there!
We should not judge this woman…none of us know her or what has led to her decisions. But yes indeed, we must not continue to turn a blind eye on the sin. Abortion has become so commonplace in our twisted society, it’s easy for someone such as this to believe one more lie. The enemy has done a masterful job of weaving his way through the hearts and minds of this country. Those that continue to offer opinions and excuses that support killing unborn children, I offer just a little advice. You may want to practice that speech in front of the mirror before the day comes and you must try to deliver that message before God. I am certain He will not buy it either!
The abortion has already been done, earlier today…… another baby was killed. Kacey says she is glad she doesn’t feel morning sickness anymore and will get an IUD in 3 weeks. Now she’s off to the Caribbean with her mom….. ugh!
What makes me so sick, is there are couples like my husband and I who are trying and have been trying for years to conceive, why isn’t adoption even a word on her tongue? her life style doesn’t have to allow for a baby, but don’t just throw them away! We would give anything in our power to be able to get pregnant just once, let alone 5 times. How can you live with yourself knowing you’re throwing your babies away? I don’t understand. I hope she allows God to move in her life and soon. Just one of those babies could have cured aids or turned this world around, she could have been proud and loved with the same unconditional love that Jesus shows to his children. I just don’t get it. I won’t judge her and that’s not how I’m meaning to come across. This is just so hard for me to understand (others I’m sure as well). I really pray that the holy spirit touches her heart.
Jolene, Amen!
I’m so, so sad for her and her baby. :(
iud will spontaneously abort more fertilized eggs (babies)…
IUD’s… they fall out. My friend just got one and it fell out 11 days later. If ur having that much sex u should be using SEVERAL birth control methods!
There’s nothing wrong with this woman other than pure evil. I pray for her still but she’s evil. I’m sorry but I have experience with this.
Not passing judgment turns good and bad into moral equivalents. The distinction between the two states is removed and suddenly there is no line to cross; everything is acceptable.
It has become politically incorrect to distinguish between good behavior and bad behavior.
“For the Sake of His sorrowfulo Passion, Have Mercy on Us and on the whole world.”
Please, forgive our delebrate ‘disposable’ society…let ALL person know, this is a LIFE, a SOUL, and is NOT like a tooth to be extracted and have another grow…..OPen the bowls of HELL and Swallow Satan, and all his deamons. Defund Plannedparenthood.com
This breaks my heart. I’m so sorry for this woman. I’m so sorry for your situation too, Jolene. I pray you find a good doctor who knows NFP to help you.
I watched a film called “Sarah’s Choice” the other night. The young woman was anguished to discover she was pregnant with her boyfriend’s child because he had not exhibited any sense of responsibility and she had a promotion coming up at work. The storyline was a bit odd but had some good moments. I wish this young woman had seen it before she did this. Perhaps if we do offer her up in prayer on Divine Mercy Sunday, God will send her people who will show her the error of her ways. Sometimes, God speaks in dreams too. Who knows how He will work? May there still be time for her to repent and maybe one day, she will be among those carrying an “I regret my abortion” sign in the March for Life.
@Jolene, I can hear the desperation in your post and I was reminded of something as I read what you wrote. I don’t know what’s it like to not be able to bear a child. I conceived only once and gave birth to a son more than 14 years ago. I’ve never longed for a child I could not bear, so I can’t imagine the daily struggle you go through. What faith you must have! How deep your relationship with the Lord must be!
While reading your post, I was reminded of a woman who went to my church. She was born with out a uterus, yet every prayer service she went up and sought the Lord for healing. She trusted fully that God would make her physically whole and she would bear a child. One day she walked passed me and instantly the Lord gave me a word for her. I’d like to share that word with you. Feel free to email me at brandi.borgstadt@gmail.com or, if you prefer, give me permission to share this openly on this thread. Blessings to you.
“FOR THE SAKE OF HIS SORROWFUL PASSION, HAVE MERCY ON US AND ON THE WHOLE WORLD”….Please, Lord, let people KNOW, a child is concieved at conception. This is NOT a tonsil, or tooth that can be pulled out and has a SOUL. Forgive us, as a Nation, let the tornodoes stop, have people OPEN up thier hearts and souls to KNOW you love and forgiveness. I have 7 live children, 2 were very lucky, I was not talked into abortion. A soul, a life was spared, and asked God to help me make Amends to myself and my family. DEFUND PLANNEDPARENTHOOD, EVERY 96 SECONDS $11 OF OUR TAX MONEY GOES TO KILLING BABIES…..
We must pray for her. I’ll see if Shelley Lubben, a former porn star herself and founder of Pink Cross Foundation, can help her.
We have to realize how deadly the sex industry is – it looks glamorous from the outside, but it is anything but glamorous! STDs and drug abuse are rampant, and porn stars are subjected to filthy environments. Many are abused and humiliated on camera, including raped. It is an exploitative and miserable environment; female porn stars often have abortions they don’t want because they are trapped in the industry. It isn’t easy to change your lifestyle when you are constantly strapped for cash (only contract porn stars make a ton of money, and these are the ones who actually get to do what they want on set), being threatened with a lawsuit (or with physical harm), sick all the time, addicted to drugs and alcohol, and feeling so worthless that you don’t think you could do anything other than pretending to enjoy excruciating sex acts on camera. Plus, more than 60% of female porn stars admit they had been abused as children, including sexual abuse. See the facts for yourself here: http://www.thepinkcross.org
Kacey needs to get out of the sex industry, which itself is very, very difficult, and get some help, love, and support. Let’s pray for her in her current situation, and for her to leave the industry.
@ Jespren: You are obviously an intelligent woman. Seriously, so many of the arguments here make no sense at all, so it is very refreshing to read a post from someone that has both intelligence and empathy.
@ Biggz: As a nurse, I find your comments “Birth control works. End of story”? Are you serious? Do you live under a rock? Also, as soon as I read your comment re. “It’s the oldest profession…” etc the lightbulb switched on…you’re a male! Surprising that MOST women on here don’t agree that this is a valid “profession”…do you have any idea how professions such as this materialize, make objects of and disrespect women? Being an ancient profession doesn’t mean that it’s ethical or safe or OK!
This woman, Kacey, is very selfish. Yer sure, I feel sorry for her. No doubt she’s had a terrible ubringing, but that’s no excuse now. We all know women who have been abused etc but have grown up to be mature, respected women that don’t continue to cry victim. She has thrown away 5 lives like trash, so that she can continue to produce movies that promote disrespect for women. Because of this, I have alot more anger towards her than sympathy.
Come on women…stand up and be a voice against these ridiculous “role models” for our daughters…and against men trying to tell us it’s ok!
….That was meant to read:
As a nurse, I find your comments “Birth control works. End of story” very naive and/or uneducated.
Sorry
I don’t believe this woman is mentally ill. I believe her soul is simply dead right now.
However, having said that I believe that Valerie is quite correct. We do need to pray for her to leave this lifestyle. And as some have suggested Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) should really pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet and also the Rosary, begging our Blessed Mother to intervene as well as St. Mary Magdalene.
To me this story proves that abortion and the porn industry go hand in hand. People try to deny that fact (especially Christian men who are against abortion but who indulge in pornography.) If men, and women, did not support the porn industry, there would be no porn starts aborting baby after baby. It’s a sick cycle. It saddens my heart.
Father God, set the ‘captive’ free…!
Thank you Natalie
Jolene; I hear you. I understand where you’re coming from. I wanted a baby more than ANYTHING my whole life. It finally happened when I was almost 42. We’ve lost five, so the ONE we have is that much more precious. We’re still trying for another one. I pray it will happen soon for YOU, too.
How long till she tries to kill herself again? Good grief! WHY isn’t ANYONE in her life helping her? She is screaming out for help and no one even cares!
Kacey, God loves you so much girl. Get help. Go to your local CPC and find counseling before your soul is absolutely destroyed. The sex industry and the abortion industry do not care for you. They want to take take take from you. God loves you and wants to heal you and GIVE you peace, GIVE you love, GIVE you life. Please talk to someone.
She needs to hear the testimonies of those that had abortions!
http://www.SilentNoMore.com
This chick is sick. Lord have mercy on this poor misguided soul.
It is possible that Kacey Jordan — and SOME other multiple aborters — are acting out of an actual “homicidal impulse.” That is, they may have a desire simply to kill someone.
We always assume when dead babies are found in trashcans or on the side of the road that the mothers were impregnated accidentally. But couldn’t at least SOME have conceived on purpose — for the thrill of killing the baby when it was born?
The cycle of women who abort multiple times is outlined quite clearly in the book Forbidden Grief.
When they find themselves in the same situation time and time again they choose abortion as they are already trapped in a cycle of hopelessness.
WHO in her life is telling her she CAN do it? She CAN have a baby? She CAN rise up and parent her child with help and support?
I never assume that someone is pregnant “accidentally.” God does nothing by accident.
Sydney,
THANK YOU!!
Are NONE of the people that she surrounds herself with concerned enough to step up and help her??
“They get paid more than you. You’re jealous. They have more sex than you. You’re jealous. They’re more attractive than you. You’re jealous. God doesn’t restrict her. You’re jealous.”
Um…not everyone is driven by money (I’m certainly not, that’s why I’m a nurse!). I don’t want more sex. I have enough of it with the man I love, thankyou very much & no, as a matter of fact she’s not more attractive than me (a bit presumtuous of you there, “Gosh”).
Also, to address the rest of your post: “The next person who tells me that a fertilised egg is a baby I think I might just throw a bag of comedy oranges at them. If it’s a baby, (human) it should be able to survive individually, without the mother’s body. And besides, no organism has the right to use another as a life support system without the full and constant consent of the bodily owner.”
Did you skip biology at school? If you hadn’t of, you would have learned that much of nature works exactly on that principle of one thing using another to support their co-existence. The last time I looked, animals weren’t getting consent forms filled out to pro-create.
People need to be more accountable for their own actions. Why do innocent people (or potential people, as some would say – not me, btw) have to suffer/die? My husband’s mum became pregnant at 16. She had already broken up with the father when she found out she was pregnant. I thank God (& her, for listening to her heart/spirit and not her head) that she walked the other way when her father dropped her off at the abortion clinic..
The zygote can survive outside the mother. That’s how they do in vitro fertilization. They use sperm and eggs and voila! baby. The blastocyst grows and divides all on his or her own, without even taking in nourishment, for several days. Then he or she needs to implant in a uterus to survive. It doesn’t need to be the biological mother’s uterus (this is how embryo adoption/donation, donor eggs, etc. can work). It is rather silly to say this new human being is a part of his or her mother’s body when he or she could have been moved into someone else’s body. Sure, you can put someone else’s kidney in my body but it won’t implant on its own. Very rarely, after a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, an embryo can even reimplant–which signifies that someday, it may be possible to safely remove a growing embryo from the biological mother’s womb to that of an adoptive mother or surrogate (ala Kirayoshi O’Brien). Not to mention that the kidney will never gain independence.
The real question is, what are comedy oranges?
Sometimes, human beings are required to care for each other even without consent, under penalty of law. This is especially true of parents and children. My children depend on me for food, water, and shelter. I cannot simply decide I no longer want to care for them and stop providing these things, or I will be charged with child abuse–murder if they die from these things being withheld. If I no longer wanted to care for my children, the law would require that I notify someone or some agency that was prepared to care for my children, not simply neglect them. Until someone came to take possession of them, I would have to care for them. If my child were two months old, and it were winter, it would not be acceptable for me to remove that child from my house or my property and leave him. And nothing but self-defense–that is, the child was hurting me (not just touching me or placing demands on me)–would justify hurting a child of any age in the process of making them leave or getting them out. Even if the child were a stranger’s young child who had come into my house without my permission, it would not be okay to break his or her bones in my efforts to get him or her to leave. Yet you propose allowing women to dismember their own children simply because those children are placing unwanted demands on their mothers. Not just remove, but dismember.
“If it’s a baby (human) it should be able to survive individually without the mother’s body” (Gosh, wherever the original post went I’m not sure, but I got it in my email)
First off, you do know what ‘individually’ means right? It means ‘by oneself’. A human can not survive individually until at least 4 or 5 and for the most part not until 12 or 13. And that assumes they have been properly schooled for survival and their environment is hospitable to them, and it further assumes they are healthy. There are many 20, 30, 40, etc year olds who can not survive individually. Should their caregivers be allowed to kill them if they become a bother?
I have a 13 month old, until she was 7 months old she was exclusively breastfed and I was her sole care provider. At 2 months post natal she required just as much ‘life support’ as she had at 2 months pre natal, and actually noticably more than at 7 months pre natal. Should I have, as in Ancient Rome, the legal right to kill my exclusively breastfed child? After all, every single cell her little body contained as a 5 month old baby was 100% nurished and supported by my body and my bodies 24-7 care of her. What is I had been rich enough to afford a full time nanny, now the care is split between different people, does that mean that before I had the right to kill her (because I was poor and couldn’t afford help) and now I’m not? What about my aunt, whose baby required in-utero medical procedures including blood transfusions by an outside donor. That baby, still months away from birth, was no longer under the sole life support or care of my aunt. So should her ‘right’ to kill her baby be different than the right of a woman whose child required no outside help? What about the 26 year old disabled man whose parents are still carrying for him 24-7, feeding, changing, soothing, whose interactions are on par with a 2 month pre natal baby, can they kill him?
The rights of the mother/parent/caregiver to do whatever they want with a child/person who is wholely dependant upon them is only a rational for ‘abortion rights’ if you also believe it is a rational to kill any child/person who is wholely dependant upon another.
A woman has a right to not get pregnant, but once she is pregnant, there is no morally or logically consistant ground upon which to allow her the ‘right’ to revoke her previous choice to procreate and kill a dependant human being.
Very good points.
The pre-born is a human, as we all are, just at the pre-born stage. Fully human – part of our human family. Let’s welcome all humans into the family – and help them if they need help. This young woman needs our help, prayers and support, for sure!
After all – isn’t humane behavior is what is required and the right thing to do? Help the humans live! Welcome to the family!
Love big. Love wins. Be love.
Did a single person here even *offer* to adopt this child?
Marysia, unfortunately, Kacey was already aborting her baby by the time we found out.
BTW, did YOU offer to help Marysia?
Or do you just go around jawing at prolifers because we don’t like the “choice” of abortion?
Marysia says:
April 29, 2011 at 5:07 pm
Did a single person here even *offer* to adopt this child?
(Denise) That probably wouldn’t have mattered. Kacey Jordan decided to abort.
I really, really hope that IUD works right!
So much for abortion impairing a woman’s fertility, huh? Isn’t that one of the most common pro-life lies…that you won’t be able to conceive children in the future?
So much for the proabort lie that abortion helps women.
Conceived to die. Lovely.
@ Katie: I have been pro-life as long as I can remember, although I never heard the term until a school friend (16 years old) told me her mother had “killed her little brother or sister because they couldn’t afford another one” (in a private school). I remember my friend being so confused and feeling disgust for her mother. I am 41 now and I have never used the argument of not being able to conceive in the future as a reason not to abort..BUT, as a nurse, I have met a number of women that have either not been able to conceive or had multiple miscarriages post abortion/s. Of course this doesn’t always happen, but it certainly does happen. Why is it that only the people that are against abortion are informed and educated about all the risks involved? Ignorance is not bliss, certainly not for theses poor babies.
@Katie, I don’t think I’ve heard much about abortion effecting a woman’s ability to conceive, but I do know that if the cervix is dilated artificially (as it is in every surgical abortion), particularly multiple times, it can make it difficult for the woman to carry to term when she does want to have a baby. I have known women this has happened to who have had multiple very young preemies after having abortions and ones who have had multiple miscarriages after having multiple abortions, I have heard of it happening to others. The cervix becomes weak and can’t hold in the baby after a certain point, resulting in a late-term miscarriage or a very small preemie, who is prone to any number of physical and cognitive problems throughout its life. Either way, the baby the woman actually wants pays the price for its mother’s choices to abort babies she didn’t want. I haven’t looked for a study on this; I’m sure one would be hard to find because the mainstream medical profession doesn’t want any negatives about abortion to get out to the public. Informed choice, my a**.
I wonder what kind of mother Kacey has…
What I don’t get is, if you want to live like a dog, why not get yourself spayed or neutered like a dog? Certainly that would be easier than having to go to all the trouble of killing your child twice a year.
“So much for abortion impairing a woman’s fertility, huh?”
Except that surgical abortion causes anatomical damage to the woman’s body which often results in miscarriages. Odds are that Kacey Jordan’s baby would not have survived the pregnancy even if she chose not to kill it. Her body has no doubt already been greatly damaged by abortionists. Pro-woman, pro-choice, pro-cervical incompetence, right?
@John Lewandowski, that’s nice. Calling her a dog. That’s just great. I’m sure all the other women who have had abortions will be so glad to know what you think of them. You know what, do me a favor, if you are going to be saying things like that then stop aligning yourself with the pro-life movement because comments like that give us all a bad name.
@Katie, I do believe Ann Marie who comments here was unable to conceive after her abortion. I have heard of it happening. Abortion CAN (though not always) cause scar tissue that destroys the uterine lining or blocks the fallopian tubes so that the ova cannot get into the uterus and the sperm can’t get into the tube to fertilize the egg.
It may not happen to EVERY woman who has an abortion or multiple abortions but it can and does happen.
Brandolyn, I did not call her a dog. I said that she is choosing to behave LIKE a dog. Her sexual behavior is virtually identical to that of a dog. And because dogs behave in that fashion, we spay and neuter them. My statement of simple fact is hardly worthy of such harsh condemnation.
Splitting hairs, John. The intent of your comment is clear. Your statement was harsh and uncalled for, and in my opinion, does not live up to the righteous calling of this pro-life movement. If you think she lives like a dog, as you put it, why not just commit to take that concern to the Lord in private? Why the need to put a spotlight on it in this public manner? I’d be surprised if you would be so callous as to say to her face she is like a dog, so why say it here? I am sad by the tenor of some of the comments made about this girl, so I feel the need to defend her as a human being. Her actions I do not defend, but I will not stand quietly by while she is further degraded.
John, in a natural environment dogs are rarely sexually active for more than 2 short periods a year and the females are (usually) monogamous to the alpha male. Besides, it’s MALE dogs who lose all sense around in-heat females. Female dogs are quite ‘responsible’ sexually and won’t let a male mount her unless she’s ready for pregnancy (which is why unscrupulous ‘breeders’ must restrain them for the males at time). So your comment is not only asinine, it’s actually closer to a complement than an insult.
This women in sinning, she’s habitually sinning by being in the porn industry, and, by all accounts given her flamboyant and public lifestyle, she’s doing so willingly. But her sin is no greater in the grand tally than a habitual liar, a random fornicator, or someone who can’t control their tongue. So don’t go flinging insults just to be insulting, it’s unbecoming.
Um, I tend to agree with you John. That was a bit of a harsh reply Brandolyn. Although John’s comment was probably a bit insensitive, he does make a point. Of course she should use protection if she’s going to sleep with every man and his, err, I might leave that sentence unfinished…
Look, I just have no tolerance for this kind of selfish, disrespectful, vain, narcissistic behavior. Thank God, He understands her and will always be there for her, because in the real world she will find herself disliked by many for the way she choses to live her life. It’s called accountability.
I really feel for this girl’s mother. Can you imagine watching your young daughter with all these men? (but I’m presuming she doesn’t). It’d break your heart…unless she supports it?
Anyway, the good news is that all these babies are precious in God’s eyes and will be spending eternity with Him :)
When I read John’s comment, it comes across as dehumanizing this girl. I consider the pro-life movement to be one that believes human life to be valuable and worth protecting. I believe dehumanizing people because of their sin is a dangerous path to go down and I spoke up. Obviously, you are free to disagree. I hope we can move away from this kind of rhetoric and embrace the spirit of pro-life, which is all humans are created in the image of God and worth valuing and protecting. Hope everyone has a nice evening.
Maybe John didn’t meant to be offensive, but his comment did sound offensive. What I see is that Kacey’s case is at the intersection of two dehumanizing “industries” (If you can call them that), that is the abortion industry and the porn industry. The first one dehumanizes preborn children and the second one objectifies women. More than that, the pornography business is practically modern day slave trade. Just ask Shelley Lubben from Pink Cross Foundation (she does a wonderful job helping people escape that terrible business). In my opinion Kacey isn’t getting seven years of freedom from that IUD. God loves her so much that He actually sent her a way out, not once, not twice, but five times, count them! FIVE TIMES! If she had loved and kept anyone of her children she probably would have left the porn business (some of the adult actresses Pink Cross has helped were pregnant). We should pray, and hope she sees the light before it’s too late; the porn business has a high suicide rate.
John, dogs show better sense then Kacey. They don’t kill their offspring. Is it possible that Kacey doesn’t know about fertility cycles etc or is she just really addicted to sex to the point where she can’t help herself? If she isn;t able to protect herself from getting pregnant then what are the chances she is protecting herself from STD’s? She probably ignores those consequences too cause they would interfere with her quest for sex and if she stopped she wouldn’t get paid. She is a lost soul.
“Did a single person here even *offer* to adopt this child?” I did before I knew it was too late. Not that you care. You will just find some other way to prove we aren’t really pro-life, I’m sure.
Kacey needs to be RESCUED!!
Out of the porn industry, out of her addictions, out of her hellish life.
Praying that the RESCUER OF SOULS gets to her and she realizes just how precious she is.
Kacey is His daughter.
I love you Brandolyn and your fierce love for ALL! Especially women who need folks like you to come alongside them and love them.
There are men in my life that have NEVER judged me. They have told me how sorry they are the way things happened in my life, they have stood in the gap for an absent father, they have drawn the sword over me as brothers in Christ. THAT is how men have shown me love after they hear my abortion story. What a blessing.
Kacey was a little girl once you know. Something happened to her.
Sydney,
You are correct. The only child that AnnMarie carried died in her abortion.
There are at least 5 post abortive women I know that could never conceive after their abortions.
It absolutely can and does happen.
But that is just another bunny trail isn’t it?? Prove to me, Katie that an innocent, fully human child DOES NOT DIE in an abortion!
Beverly Hadland who was an early crusader against abortion and who had 3 abortions herself could never conceive again either. She began speaking out against abortion and was one of the first women to publicly speak out in the 1970’s about how harmful abortion is to women both physically and emotionally. She experienced it first hand.
It took many years for Bev to get on the right track again and she now primarily promotes chastity for teens because she realizes that young women are under a great deal of pressure to give in to their boyfriends resulting in unwanted pregnancy.
And truthseeker, I understand that you are upset about Kacey’s choices but we have to be careful about the language we use. No healthy woman chooses the life of porn and prostitution. Many of these young women have been abused and have serious issues.
What Kacey needs is much prayer. I see her tweets as a cry for help, although she probably wouldn’t see them as such.
@Alex, yes I agree…that’s what I meant. She is degraded and objectified in the porn industry, exploited by the abortion industry, and now referred to as a dog (and worse than a dog…that was nice) by a community of people who are supposed teach her the value of life – all life, including her own! I just think as a community we can do better than this. We can, as Carla said, not judge her and stand in the gap. Yes, what she is doing is wrong. I won’t deny that and if I knew her personally, I would tell her as much. But I wouldn’t degrade her and beat her down, and I don’t mean to say that as a judgment against what John and ‘truthseeker’ said. I believe we can do better than this. It is so easy to blame a woman for this. But I happen to believe not what she says, but what her actions say. She is a porn star. Can you imagine what her childhood must have been like? Many of you mentioned her mother and how her mother must feel. You assume she had a mother who loved and protected her; a mother who valued her. Unfortunately, the opposite is more likely true. I believe Kasey was probably abused as a child and has turned to promiscuity to deal with her abuse. And as a result she has had 5 pregnancies that she lacked the courage and faith to deliver, so she chose abortion, which many of us know has only added to her problems. That’s how I see her and I have pity for her. The children are gone and with the Lord now. There’s nothing to be done about them except grieve the loss and pray. The only way to protect any future children of Kacey’s is for her to have a change in her heart and I 100% disagree that the way to accomplish that is by referring to her as dog. But I could be wrong…
@Carla…I love you too!!! :) Thank you, friend!
Just because of woman who has had an abortion(s) in the past either has a premature baby or can’t conceive doesn’t mean that either of these issues were due to her past abortion. I’m not arguing that they absolutely couldn’t be, of course, but it’s quite naive and short-sighted to say of all women who fit into these categories that it has to be due to her past abortion(s). There are many other factors that come into play–age in particular.
Did you know Enigma that a D & C is the same procedure used in abortion?
Did you know that forcibly dilating the cervix through abortion or D & C weakens the cervix?
It stands to reason that a factor in premature births and miscarriages can be due to both.
Yes, but we are all so naive and short sighted. sigh
And no I’m not saying a D & C is an abortion.
In one case a baby has already died and is removed, in another the baby is very much alive and is killed and removed.
And my dear friend has infertility due to her abortion history. She is happily married, she and her husband want children. Never did she imagine that her abortion history would rob her of her natural family.
Thankfully she is an adoptive mother now.
Her bravery in sharing her story with me is the reason we came to the sidewalk to help women choose a different path for their lives. I am still doing that over 7 years later….I am so grateful to her, for her honesty, bravery, conviction and heart.
Her abortion history cost her plenty. And cost her aborted child(ren) plenty too.
We all want the pro-life movement to grow and the abortion industry to die out. But who are our new people going to be? More perfect humans who have never made a mistake in their lives? Obviously not. The women in the porn industry need us, and we need them. We need to help each other and calling names or comparing to animals isn’t going to make anyone feel welcome. I read the comments and I’m glad for those of you who wrote in this woman’s defense.
I, too, know of several women who were unable to conceive after their abortions. One friend in particular, her tubes collapsed due to the suction of the abortion machine (I don’t know what it is called). It happens more often than we realize. Oh, and of course, there are all the psychological trauma to contend with. Abortion is a method by which the enemy of our soul uses to devour us – plain and simple. Be you a baby inside the womb, a woman on the table, the man who may or may not have abandoned them both, the abortionist and other pro-abort workers, and even the pro-lifer picketing outside. We are all at risk for falling for the traps set for us that encircle the issue of abortion (maybe not the act itself, but we can become ensnared by condemnation, anger, self-righteousness, apathy, etc. The list goes on and on. And by no means am I referring to anyone in this thread or the previous comments. I’m simply suggesting we all must maintain our hearts in a way that will yield us the Lord’s perspective regarding this issue because it is a spiritual battle with physical consequences.) …
Okay, now back to gardening! Have a wonderful day everyone!! :)
To those wondering why I asked if anyone had offered to adopt this child:
I AM prolife. I went through living hell to give birth to my unplanned daughter. I have helped her and many other women get through and beyond their own difficult pregnancies without resort to abortion.
I am NOT trying to prove that all prolifers are hypocrites. However, not wanting women to have abortions carries the inescapable responsibility to personally create other alternatives. When prochoicers hold us to this standard, in this they are absolutely correct.
No doubt some posters here are in a position where they can consider adoption, even if it means stretching and sacrificing a bit. So I have to wonder why the leap to all this “religious” judgmentality about a woman who clearly has a lot of personal difficulties-before any talk of offering to adopt her baby, or any other substantive help?
Personally, I can’t offer to adopt because the adoption system is biased against people with disabilities and/or without money, and I would have to divorce my husband of 25 years to adopt-he feels we are already committed enough to the wellbeing of women and young people, especially because he takes a big salary cut to work in a service profession.
If not pushing further to adopt makes me a total sh*t, then I’m a total sh*t.
I do try in every other way open to me to ensure that women have every possible way to not have abortions. I have for over two decades. No, it’s not enough. And that may be because I am a morally bankrupt hypocrite. But just because I am an awful person who fails my moral responsibilities-that doesn’t mean anyone else has to be one.
Maybe I can’t offer to adopt-but can you? And you? And you? And you? I ask because the need is there for women and child in crisis. Whether or not I personally am a big enough person to rise to that particular occasion.
Too late for the child of this discussion, but not for other children:
http://www.adoptuskids.org/
Marysia – I think the backlash to your question is because most pro-abortion people ask that all the time of pro-lifers – to basically make the case ” see – if you are unwilling to help even one kid, then you have not right to judge abortion.” But that is a false argument – and I am glad that you identified yourself as pro-life.
people do what they can and help out – and the people on the blog are among the very best to help women and children in crisis.
Can we save every family? no – but we help where we can – and that is the crux of the matter – to do unto others as you would want others to do onto you….
Why aren’t proaborts held to this same standard?
How does my NOT adopting prove that I don’t offer women alternatives by being involved in my local life care center?
So you can’t adopt Marysia and I can’t adopt. Ok then.
ps
A quick story. There was a a young lady on facebook that was considering abortion and 30 families(YES 30 FAMILIES)stepped in and offered to adopt that baby. She aborted anyway.
Methinks thou protest too much.
This is what’s wrong with the porn industry…… they probably ALL murder their children. How many “stars” in this industry do you know with living children? And even if they do, if their JOB is to procreate, they’d probably have like FIFTEEN children each if they didn’t destroy them all.
A family with fifteen children in my opinion is very virtuous and if raised properly can be very easy (and fun) to take care of, even as infants.
Wait, most people don’t have sex enough to have 15 children? Or what are you trying to get at with that? Don’t get it.
Marysia, I’m sorry for reacting harshly. Knowing that you are pro-life, I find your comment totally appropriate, as there are many comments on this thread which seem harsh and unloving. No one is beyond hope. Sometimes I feel more anger than compassion as well–but Christ is continuing to work on each of us.
I did offer. I have never failed to offer when hearing about a person who is contemplating abortion but hasn’t done it yet. I will always offer rather than letting a child be sentenced to death because no one cares.
Of course, then the pro-dismemberment people just say that we want women to be brood-mares so we can get their children. So you can’t win with them either way.
DH and I want to adopt, and we are currently figuring out what direction to take and what we can take on. We don’t feel ready for an older child (and DH doesn’t want an adopted child who is too old to be our biological child). We also have friends who were badly burned when they tried to adopt a troubled child who accused them of abuse. We aren’t sure how much medical needs we can handle–and the waiting children tend to have very severe medical needs or be way out of our comfort range age-wise. As parents we have to think first of the children we already have as well. A child who would take all of our time and attention wouldn’t be fair to our son and daughter. If God were to send us a clear message to adopt a child with major needs, or if I were to conceive such a child, we’d make it work, but it wouldn’t be responsible for us to take it on. We are open to sibling groups, interracial adoption, some disabilities and illnesses–we need to work out exactly what–but we have to be wise (while making sure our wisdom is submitted to God, not wisdom of the world).
Brandolyn, considering the continued stupidity of your remarks, I would thank you not to associate yourself with the pro-life movement, either. There are far too many idiots in the movement as it is. I did NOT call her a dog. If I WANTED to dehumanize her, I could have done so easily, AND THERE WOULD BE NO DEBATE about my intentions.
Don’t worry, I’ve had enough of this place for another few months/years. See you next time I forget how stupid it is here.
It’s a pity you’ve chosen to respond the way you have, John. Peace to you.
brandolyn,
instead of attacking pro-lifers, attack the abortion industry or the abortion eneblers or the porn industry or the Democrap party->who are friends with these organizations..
Jasper,
I never attacked John. I spoke up against inappropriate condemnation against this girl. I am in this battle against abortion, but I am part of this pro-life movement and just like you and John, I help set the tone for our part of the discussion. As far as I’m concerned, I think we can do better than what was displayed. This is a righteous cause and I see no reason to name-call. It is beneath us all. Have a good evening.
Carla, I was just thinking of that story you shared. Yes, all those families stepped forward to adopt. And she aborted anyways. It is a lie that pro-lifers won’t adopt. But even if every pro-lifer doesn’t adopt that means abortion is not murder? It means there was no loss of innocent life??? Confused as to why a supposed pro-lifer would even pose that question.
Interesting how such well intending people can get side tracked with quibbling amongst themselves, isn’t it. I’m not judging here, just observing…after all, I put in my 2 bobs worth!
So, back to the issue here…
I think the fact that these women still abort their babies after having offers of adoption is because it’s not just bringing up a child that they’re worried about, It’s the inconvenience of the whole thing: the pregnancy, people finding out, the labour etc etc.
How sad it is that these poor babies are only thought of as “inconveniences”, rather than possibilities. I lived in India (I’m an Aussie) for several years as a child (boarding school) and I witnessed so many extremrly poor families that were so rich in love…& then I hear so many stories of women aborting because they “can’t afford it” or “can’t fit it into their lifestyle”. Yer, I guess all those iPods and designer clothes cost alot. Sad, very sad…
Brandolyn,
John could have chosen a better way to descibe Kaceys inability to stop having sex. Comparing her to a dog could be construed as degrading; it would be more concise and less apt to be misconstrued if he had compared her behaviour to that of a male dog around a female in heat. Have you ever tried to get their minds on something else. It is quite impossible and comparable to Kacey’s inability to get away from selling herself to be used by the sex industry. In any case, he wasn’t calling her a dog, he was referring to her behaviour.
Peace to you also Brandolyn. There is no need for you to feel bad about being man enough to stick up for an abused woman but are you humble enough to see when you got it wrong?
Since I know Brandolyn personally I am a bit biased. :) She will fight tooth and nail for post abortive women and stand for them. NOT for what they did but for who they are.
John,
I have never seen you respond to another commenter the way you responded to Brandolyn.
Is everything all right?
I’ve seen/heard this kind of thing before – sadly – on the lines praying in front of abortion clinics. People who are so upset with the act of abortion that they allow the contempt for the issue flow into how they speak to and about the people going into the buildings. It is insensitive and hurtful and, in my opinion, not of God. That’s the point I was trying to make, and maybe like John, I didn’t come across they way I had hoped. For that I am sorry. I rebuked John, yes. I believe the tenor of his comment was worth speaking up because we all set the tone for this movement; our words and actions reflect on one another. We can not degrade these women, even on accident. I believe we must be mindful and purposeful in our words toward them and about them because everyone is watching us and waiting for us to show our ‘true colors’. Our true colors must be made up of compassion and righteousness. That’s what I believe and it is on that belief I acted when I rebuked John for his dog comment. I will accept the consequence of my action and consider other people’s rebuke of me, but after reflection, I do believe I did the right thing. Hopefully we can now move on from this and just agree to disagree.
Okay, I have to chime in again. I rebuked John because he was bad mouthing her behind her back. But the repeat ‘we should NEVER say anything that sounds like condemnation’ I’m hearing from others is just plain wrong. I know this won’t mean anything for those of you who aren’t Christians, but we are not called to JUST be compassionate and ‘nice’. Fire and brimstone messages are just as powerful as love and forgiveness messages and there is a time and place for each. Jesus himself used the phrase “brood of vipers”, which in that culture was a lot worse than us calling someone a dog or a pig. John the Baptist preached hellfire and damnation. While I doubt someone in her lifestyle could be shamed into forsaking her lifestyle/abortion, there is ABSOLUTELY a time when God will give us words of shame, condemnation, and hellfire to turn a woman. There are ABSOLUTELY women and babies who can be saved because reminders of God’s wrath and righteous judgement pricked a guilty conscious that was being ignored. (Think of a scared young woman being escorted into a clinci via her pastor’s wife, which I’ve heard of happening. She’s been given enough ‘compassion’ to kill a horse, or in this case a baby, but if she is truly God’s then a reminder of what God has to say on the issue and the consequences of His wrath when we turn from Him may be exactly what is needed to break through the bad worldly advice of her ‘pastor’) God is love but He is also justice and righteousness, and not everyone can be awoken from sin’s blindness via just love.
God loves you and your baby!!!
You are going to hell!!
I see a big difference there.
@ Jespren: Nicely said!
Sometimes I wish being a Christian didn’t include “speaking the truth”, but, as it has been pointed out above, it certainly does on some occasions. This, I believe, is one of them. Unfortunately we are promised persecution. We WILL be hated, no question about that. I guess it’s about choosing our battles…
Great post this morning, Jesperen. I agree with you. God uses different ways and means to reach each of us individually. As do parents w/ each child having different temperaments, experiences, etc. It’s not a one size fits all.
Five abortions…most recently one in Feb, and another just three days ago. As Kacey Jordan’s tweets indicate, she’s partying in the Caribbean today & filming a porn video while there. Whatever was used to get through to Kacey before hasn’t resonated. Maybe some seeds were planted…but dead babies continue in her path.
Yes, Jesus did display just anger at times (“brood of vipers”…”foxes”….”hypocrites”….etc.), even going as far as throwing tables and swinging a whip in the temple yard.
It’s often repeated that often holy ‘fear of the Lord’ is the first step towards one reconciling w/ God – and reforming their ways & lives.
The approach must be well thought out, adapted based on the person’s reaction & objective results (e.g. FIVE abortions), and done always w/ love & charity (not done to bring self glory w/ competition mind-set).
Thanks again for your post, Jesperen. I can tell it came from someone truly wishing that the lost would find their loving Father…and, FINALLY peace.
brandolyn said:
“You know what, do me a favor, if you are going to be saying things like that then stop aligning yourself with the pro-life movement because comments like that give us all a bad name.”
I thank God for you and your ministry to abortion bound women and welcome it as a part of the pro-life movement. You speak of ministrering with righteousness and John speaks with righteous indignation. I welcome both of your efforts. I would guess you have experienced people ministering to abortion bound women in ways that were less than tactful. And you transposed those experiences into an unfair attack on John. Kacey needs to be told she is behaving like a dog and Kacey needs one of your bear hugs badly.
Carla, I don’t see a difference. God is not just a God of love and mercy. Isn’t it loving to warn women that God is a God of judgment? That He will punish the unrepentant?
Is it wrong for me to say “I love you Carla. WATCH OUT FOR THAT CAR!” as you step into traffic?
I guess its the tone and heart. If you want to just throw it into an abortion-minded woman’s face “You’re going to hell (ha ha I’m not.. I am so much better than you)” thats wrong. But if you are lovingly warning her that her steps are leading to destruction and judgement. I see that as loving. You are warning her and thus may lead her away from the choices that lead to judgement.
It is wrong to gloss over God’s righteous character that is longsuffering and merciful BUT ALSO A GOD OF JUSTICE WHO WILL PUNISH SIN. It is not a paradox. Mercy and Justice are two very harmonious sides of God’s nature.
If you repent God will ALWAYS forgive you. If you don’t repent though, don’t be fooled. Judgment IS coming.
I do.
I do not see the comparison between stepping into the path of a moving car either.
I guess I need to see some examples of what is said to women going into the mills.
Let’s hear the “fire and brimstone.”
Although Jesus didn’t bring fire and brimstone to the woman caught in adultery nor the woman at the well did He?
True, Christ did not bring fire and brimstone to the woman taken in adultery but He did preach of judgement at times. Just saying we should not gloss over God’s judgement no matter how uncomfortable it makes us. Its truth.
The stepping into the path of a car analogy is akin to a woman planning an abortion. Someone is about to die. It is a critical situation. We offer help and love but do we pretend that her actions are not inviting judgement from a holy God? I don’t think that is very loving to allow her to put herself into a situation where she provokes the holy God of heaven. Someone is going to pay for the blood of these children. The question is will it be the mom or Christ? Women who have aborted and repented are forgiven and their punishment covered by the blood of Christ. Should unrepentant women not be warned?
Too often we change God into some flowery Being in order to suit our fancy. Thats wrong. We need to change our views to fit God’s holy nature not change God to fit our human nature. Thats all I’m saying. I think Jespren’s point was well made.
I am not glossing over God’s judgment nor making Him into a flowery being. He rescued a wretch like me who DID kill her own child through abortion. It was the brokenness over it that brought me to Him. Jesus came to save screw ups like me. And there are enough screw ups in the Bible that Jesus had only compassion and love for.
I am waiting to hear the words of fire and brimstone, shame, condemnation and hellfire that Jesperen yells at women.
There was mention of John the Baptist and Jesus preaching ‘fire and brimstone’ earlier in this thread. Let’s be reminded of the call on their lives, how much time they spent in prayer, fasting, and in just in the presence of the Lord. Do those who believe they are justified in speaking harshly toward this women – or any woman in her situation – spend as much time with God as they did? Are you eating locusts and honey and only wearing burlap? Are you willing to lay down your life as Jesus did for Kacey? If you answer no to any of those then perhaps you are not qualified to preach the fire and brimstone message.
In general I like to use a message of hope when speaking to abortion bound women. I say things like
“The child you carry is alive with God’s Holy Spirit.”
“Put your trust in God; choose life and he will provide for you and your unborn child”
The judgemental things are more like;
“Stop.” “Knock the dust from your shoes and turn around and run away as fast as you can.” “They want to hurt you in there.”
“It was Jesus who said it would be better you had a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown to the bottom of the sea then to hurt one of these little ones.”
brandolyn,
Though we are sinners; in Jesus’ name we can fulfill his righteousness here on earth. That is what Jesus tells us when Jesus insists John baptize him even though John says he is not worthy to.
@ Carla, I have never needed to use a fire and brimstone message specifically with a pre-post abortive women but the example I provided of two self-proclaimed Christian women heading for an abortion I think would be a likely example. I HAVE been led by the Spirit to preach hellfire and damnation type conversations over other sexual sins in the past. Both were to people I knew well, knew they knew what they were doing was wrong, and was hopeful that sharing God’s words would awaken their guilty conscious to action. I have also shared God’s justice and wrath with people with whom I was talking about general sin and a need to come right with God. I have also had it used effectively against me when I was heading in the wrong direction.
No, Jesus did not use fire and brimstone with many that He came across, but He did with some. He gave a serious tongue lashing to the Pharasees and, as someone else noted, actually did physical damage and threatened, possibly even inflicted physical harm when He ran the money changers out with a whip.
Typically speaking hellfire and damnation stances work with those who are familiar with the basics of the Christian God and who are aware what they are doing is wrong. So, excepting rare circumstances where God would lead with foreknowledge (I have had one such account discribed to me where a pastor was given foreknowledge of a stranger’s adultury), I can’t immagine it would likely be appropriate at a public strange place like sidewalk counseling at an abortion mill.
The sermon widely to be consider the most famous, well known, and powerful to come outside the Bible was Jonathan Edwars “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”. If you have never read it I strongly suggest you do so. The point is God Himself in Jesus isn’t above given a blistering tongue lashing where appropriate, and we shouldn’t heed His call of chastisment, justice, and wrath just because it’s ‘unpopular’ with today’s crowd. People’s hearts haven’t changed and there are those in every walk of life and every sin that will be better reached through “Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemation of hell?” (Jesus speaking in Matt 23. Of course the answer is “Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world”, but some will never understand their need for the 2nd without the 1st.
Btw, I’ve never heard of anyone finding it necessary to yell, exceptin when needing volume to address a large crowd. Fire and brimstone messages do not mean WE are angry, it means an accurate protrayl of GOD’s righteous wrath.
@ Brandoyln, there isn’t a part of the Bible of God’s charcter and Truth that is off limits unless/until you’re ‘more holy’. ALL of the Bible is given to ALL men and it’s ALL good for reproof, correction, and teaching (check Timothy). The newest of Christians is just as able and allowed to speak of “if only You would slay the wicked, O God, depart from me, therefore, you bloodthristy men…I hate them with a perfect hatred, I count them my enemies” as they are of “You knit me together in my mother’s womb, I will praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made”…those quotes are both from the same Pslam. Separating God’s justice from His love leads to those ‘feel good’ Christians who believe they can continue in God’s good graces despite unrepentant sin, because, after all, “God is love”. As Paul said “should we sin more so that grace may abound? Certainly not!”
Look at the Old Testament, it is very much a litany of God saying ‘now I love you, so stop doing that…I told you, stop doing that or you’re going to you’re going to get it…last warning, repent and turn from your sin or else…fine, off to ruin and captivity you go until you learn to listen to Me.’
Brandolyn, I don’t know you personally but perhaps its not your place to judge the ministry of others. You have your own special calling to post-abortive women and you fulfill a different role. I don’t believe in hating abortion-minded women or being hateful or snarky but I do believe in calling sin, well, sin. I believe in warning women about the very real judgement of God.
As a believer in Christ I have full authority as joint heir with Him to speak TRUTH. My authority comes from my position in Christ not by eating locusts. The truth includes love, forgiveness, and the VERY REAL hellfire and brimstone. Satan would have people blinded to hellfire and brimstone. He would take away the urgency of repentance by removing any thought of judgement.
Jesperen,
I owe you an apology. Please forgive me for assuming something that is not true about you. I assumed the worst and I am sorry.
An offer of help, support, a free ultrasound and pamphlets detailing fetal development work as well.
So what do you say Sydney? What do you say to women heading into the mill?
Well, I’ve never been close enough to the women heading into PP. They keep us back so we can’t get to the women. But my employee (you know the one) that was thinking of having another abortion, I just showed her the truth of her baby’s development. I told her she can do it (parent). I told her she would never regret it.
The friends who have cried on my shoulder about their abortions I have told Christ forgives. When they ask me if their babies were real humans and died I said yes. I didn’t mince words. I understand where you’re coming from Carla. you don’t want hateful slurs cast out at women considering abortion and I agree! You don’t want women seeking forgiveness to be reproved into shame and silence. I think there is a fine line here. I guess it goes back to the heart. Is our heart for these women or are some speaking in self-righteousness? Are we full of anger at the moms or anger at the sin and the devil? We have to make sure our motives are based on a love for Christ and not in the flesh. “Be ye angry and sin not.”
I think we all agree more than we realize, but do to the limits of not being face-to-face and hearing each other’s tones, facial expressions, etc, we might be at an impasse. So, I will let my first post on this thread by my last. I wish you all well:
My heart breaks for this woman. She is so lost and so without hope. She doesn’t understand the bondage she keeps putting on herself by the choices she makes. I know many might want to condemn her because she has had so many abortions, but I firmly believe when people know better they do better. She doesn’t get it. She doesn’t understand that all the feelings she has post-abortion are because of the abortion itself. She thinks this is an answer to her problems and she doesn’t understand it is the cause of it. I weep for her – I honestly do. I mean, can you imagine not understanding and you keep making the same choice over and over again? Can you imagine how tormented she must be? Pray for her, folks, and everyone like her. Cry out to God to move people into her life to speak the truth and love of Christ and pray she hears them. Imagine the condition of her soul and remember how much the Lord loves her. He created her, after all. Ugh. I’d love 5 minutes with this woman to minister to her. I’d love 5 minutes to look in her eyes and convey the love the Lord has for her. I’d wrap my arms around her and pray that as I held her she’d feel the deep love and passion of the Lord penetrate her heart…
I think you hit it on the head when you said, “She is mentally ill.”
Brandolyn, my heart breaks for her too. I can’t imagine her utter misery and hopelessness. Lets remember her in prayer. God can still throw her a lifeline and save her.
This girl is in serious trouble and my heart breaks for her too. She’s still fairly young–let’s pray that she gets out of the industry, gets clean and is able to live a stable life.
**** Carla posted: I am not glossing over God’s judgment nor making Him into a flowery being. He rescued a wretch like me who DID kill her own child through abortion. It was the brokenness over it that brought me to Him. Jesus came to save screw ups like me. And there are enough screw ups in the Bible that Jesus had only compassion and love for. ****
I’m glad you were open to God’s mercy. It doesn’t sound like you needed a strong admonishment for your sin…your own conscience recognized your sin, dropped you to your knees, and lead you to the feet of Jesus.
St. Paul admits to level of sinner he was (even involved in ordering the deaths of Christians). Gentle proddings and treating him with ’kid gloves’ probably wouldn’t have helped Saul begin his journey of coming home. As you know, it took God actually knocking him on his arse and making him blind – to finally see.
You may be thinking that how your conversion transpired is the blue print for how all post-abortive women will convert. That’s not so. Some may need to hear the brutal facts to get it through to them. A more firm approach would have been conterproductive in your case. You were already sorry and needed support, encouragement, love, direction and reassurance.
We are instructed to “admonish the sinner.” HOW to admonish will vary between individuals and situations. Too often in this culture of death society, ‘liverals’ will reflexively throw out “Judge lest ye be judged!” as an excuse to live on in sin unencumbered. It’s a smokescreen…an attempt to justify sin. Jesus wouldn’t buy it; and, niether should we.
Damien
You are assuming quite a bit about me and my abortion story.
You have no idea what my abortion story is. No idea of the years and years of addiction, nightmares, depression. suicidal thoughts and one attempt cost me. You have no idea what 20 years of this journey has been like for me nor how God brought me to Himself.
I hardly consider my conversion the “blue print” for other post abortive moms. You are assuming that I assume that. Thank goodness I get the privilege of leading other moms through Rachel’s Vineyard and truly seeing God’s hand for myself.
Nice chat.
What do you yell in condemnation and shame and judgment to a woman about to go into an abortion mill?(That was the original question.)
Dear Carla,
I don’t think ours was a ‘nice chat.’ You’re excessive defensiveness indicates you haven’t healed from your past abortion.
God is merciful, but God is ALSO just. You only want to speak of the merciful God. Have you not heard of a holy fear of the Lord? That sometimes is a necessary first step for some on the path to reconciliation and healing.
You only want to consider one part of God’s story (mercy) and ignore the other (justice). Why is that? You said, “It was the brokenness over (my abortion) that brought me to Him.” You were seeking mercy and forgiveness.
What about post-abortive mothers who don’t want God’s mercy or forgiveness because they are too pridefully stubborn to admit they were wrong – thus unwilling to tell God sorry for what they did? Do you not tell them their soul and eternal life are in jeopardy? Do you just hug them and ignore the brutal facts of God’s justice?
If you truly want to help guide post-abortive women back to God, you will by definition need to emphasize to some (not all…some will already realize that & already have a holy fear of the Lord) that our God is a JUST God.
When you are working at Rachel’s Vineyard, it’s about the women you counsel….it’s not about you.
Humble yourself and get healthy. You put up your guard to quickly when confronting the Truth to say you are healed. You’re not….you’re still broken, or acknowledging that God is just wouldn’t cause such discomfort.
Peace,
Damien
You’re excessive defensiveness indicates you haven’t healed from your past abortion.
Sorry. I didn’t read past that first sentence. Like I said. 20 years.
You assume so many things about someone you don’t even know? You jumped into a conversation I was having with someone that KNOWS me and KNOWS my story. And I don’t have to fill in the blanks with Sydney. I have been a moderator for 3 years. Ask any regulars about the work I do.
good grief, Damien.!! Click on my name. It will take you to my blog. You can watch my abortion story in the right side bar.
COME SEE WHAT THE LORD HAS DONE! :)
And what you are calling “excessive defensiveness” is really me trying to tell you the truth. Allow me to at least correct you. I don’t appreciate people telling me about my abortion or HOW it was I came to be rescued. Did you think I would say, “Well my goodness Damien you are so right!!?”
*** Carla posted: “I have been a moderator for 3 years. Ask any regulars about the work I do. Good grief, Damien.!! Click on my name. It will take you to my blog. You can watch my abortion story in the right side bar.” ****
If you have to justify your defensiveness over a just God w/ being a “moderator,” having a “blog,” having a video “story,” then you’re hiding the truth – from yourself.
I call it how I see it. You don’t like what I saw. Truth hurts. Do some introspection and you’ll see what I mean.
In order to be of even greater benefit to post-abortive mothers, YOU need to be healthy emotionally yourself. You’re not quite there. I’m sure of it. Go back and read your posts again. You CAN’T STAND the thought of a JUST GOD! It sets you off and unsettles you.
YOU need to ask WHY?
Or, you can just remain w/ your head in the sand of “moderator, counselor, blogs and video stories.”
The decision is yours. But, I can tell you that the future women you council will hope you do the more challenging (but most healthy) thing for THEIR sakes….AND yours.
Peace,
Damien
**** And what you are calling “excessive defensiveness” is really me trying to tell you the truth. ****
I’m witnessing your defensiveness in the context of discussing God’s justice; and, how it is necessary to present to ‘some’ post-abortive mothers to get the Holy Spirit rolling in their hearts.
Post-abortive women who need to hear the Truth of God’s justice are missing out if you are assigned to counsel them. They’ll walk out with hugs, but no change of heart whatsoever. The women who first need a holy fear of the Lord will not by directed on the right path because of your OWN issue w/ the existence of God’s justice.
Yet, you say you want to help post-abortive women. If that’s the case, then you need to reconcile with WHO God is for all….and not just the merciful part of him – ALL of Him.
Talk to Father Frank Pavone about this conversation. I’m not qualified to guide you to FULL healing. I’m only qualified to read your posts in context, and share my honest opinion.
Peace,
Damien
Gosh Damien – what are you doing? Carla has been a loving, helpful, joyful witness of Christ’s love and mercy. Honest, direct, open, sharing the Good News, including the difficulties with healing from abortion, and helping others to either avoid abortion, heal from their abortion or help the pro-abortion people to know God (in all his mercy and judgement – but done in a charitable and beautiful way).
I am afraid that this medium can be harsh – you do not see Carla’s face, body language or hear her tone of voice. So no clues as to how things are accepted or written. What is clear is that you have judged her without knowing her – and your writings are exuding an abrasiveness that this written-only posting can emit.
Please, tone it back. I know that you are trying to be helpful – but the tone, the wording and the abrasive language including:
‘If you have to justify your defensiveness over a just God w/ being a “moderator,” having a “blog,” having a video “story,” then you’re hiding the truth – from yourself.I call it how I see it. You don’t like what I saw. Truth hurts. Do some introspection and you’ll see what I mean.’
and
In order to be of even greater benefit to post-abortive mothers, YOU need to be healthy emotionally yourself. You’re not quite there. I’m sure of it. Go back and read your posts again. You CAN’T STAND the thought of a JUST GOD! It sets you off and unsettles you.
YOU need to ask WHY?
Or, you can just remain w/ your head in the sand of “moderator, counselor, blogs and video stories.”
The decision is yours. But, I can tell you that the future women you council will hope you do the more challenging (but most healthy) thing for THEIR sakes….AND yours.
While I am sure that you are thinking that you are being helpful, I can tell you that the tone and abrasiveness is not achieving what you want.
Carla is a repentant sinner. She is not sinning any more. She is helping others avoid sin. And she is truthful about sharing that witness. HOW she does it is hers to deal with. God has given her a gift, and she has reached out to many women, and been successful beyond what you know. She knows God judges, and I am sure that she shares that with women. God also loves – and He love repentant sinners.
So while I am sure that God does judge, and wants our repentance – it is not up to you to decide what form that takes, how that is done or what in particular she should say in her ministry.
Suggestions are helpful. Condemnation is not. So please – as we have posted here before – all done in the Love of Christ – all done in charity.
As St. Francis de Sales said ” you can catch more bees with honey than vinegar.”
You have not read Carla’s posts in full context if you are stretching so far as to say she does not recognize that God is just simply because she is telling her story.
You do not know Carla, and apparently you haven’t even SEEN her story. I would advise you to familiarize yourself with those pieces of evidence before you go baselessly assassinating someone’s character again.
Carla speaks out BECAUSE God has healed her. You are the one with your head in the sand if you believe listening to the voices of post-abortive women – who later had God bring them to repentance and healing in their lives – is insignificant.
Carla,
One final point: If I were to talk to those you work with, counsel with, hang out with, etc. I’m certain they would agree that talking in depth about our Just God is to be avoided with you. “It sets her off!” would be the collective response. And, you know I’m accurate about this.
They won’t directly address your sensitivity to a Just God for fear you’ll bite their heads off. As for me, I’ve never been a walk-on-eggshells kind of guy. I’ve always been a straight shooter. As a result, some are annoyed w/ me at the front end, only to thank me later to for being brutally honest. To God be the glory.
I’ll pray for you and hope for the best. I’d love for you to continue doing the work you’re doing…..but doing it even BETTER and more EFFECTIVELY.
Peace,
Damien
Damien – please since you yourself used the word sensitivity, please physician, ‘ heal thyself!’
Sensitivity – and talking about biting the heads off and walking on eggshells. Please read your posts out-loud, with the emphasis that you yourself have placed on the capitalized words. Please, wishing people peace means really wishing them peace.
Do-over anyone? As someone once said – ‘can’t we all just get along?’
**** JoyFromIllinios posted: “So while I am sure that God does judge, and wants our repentance – it is not up to you to decide what form that takes, how that is done or what in particular she should say in her ministry.” ****
Interesting, since it was Carla who was preaching to others about NOT discussing God’s justice when speaking to post-abortive women.
I guess it’s okay w/ you that Carla decides ”what form that takes, how that is done or what in particular (we) should say.”
It works both ways, Joy. (According to the Bible, your post is an example of hypocricy).
Nice try, though, standing up for your friend…and enabling her angst over the thought of sharing about a Just God (read her posts in this thread with an open mind, and you’ll see what I mean).
Remove the wool from your eyes – for Carla’s sake, and for the sake of those she could even more effectively counsel.
Peace,
Damien
Thank you, Phillymiss, Kel and Joy. :)
Damien,
I told you I have been a moderator here for 3 years so that you might understand that I know and love the commenters here. They KNOW my abortion story. I told you I have a blog so that you might want to get to know me before you judge and critique me. You are invited to read about why I do what I do. I directed you to watch my abortion story that you might see what God has done in my life. And yes I DO know that God is just.
It is still up to me if I would care to read your words, think on them awhile, agree with your assessment of my abortion, my healing and my work with post abortive women and take your advice on how to be more EFFECTIVE.
Honestly, I thought we were talking about what folks yell to women walking into abortion mills????
You are a guy?? Good to know.
Instead of thanking you I will just say that you are wrong.
Carla: …a guy?? …Instead of thanking you I will just say that you are wrong.
Hey you! : D
I guess it just goes to show that there will often be more than one approach.
As for Kacey herself, I don’t know how effective an IUD will be, but it’s surprising it took this long for her to step up the preventative measures, IMO. I also wonder if I’m over-estimating the cost/hassle/sorrow, etc., involved in a given abortion for some women, here. Aside from the pro-life/pro-choice arguments, I’d think that one or two unwanted pregnancies would be plenty, i.e. after that one would really go all-out on prevention, afterwards, if one still didn’t want to be pregnant.
If I may, I would like to open up and share my experience with a fire and brimstone message I received from a close friend as I recovered from a suicide attempt (as I think it relates similarly to this discussion of the message we are sending to emotionally-vulnerable and hurting women going into abortion clinics).
Carla, yes I’m a guy. (I don’t know of any gals w/ the name Damien)
Your Jan 12th blog entry begins w/ “I have righteous anger!!” You’re angry at being lied to, angry at rude things people yelled to you, etc.
God also is entitled to “righteous anger” regarding mothers who are slaughtering their/His babies (4,000 today alone). That righteous anger includes those post-abortive mothers who die in mortal sin after passing on w/ the unrepentant sin of abortion on their souls.
Why you criticize others for doing what we are INSTRUCTED to do (“admonish the sinner”) is beyond me. Some post-abortive mothers will need to hear of God’s mercy from the get-go because they are already truly sorry. Others will be rationalizing their sin to protect themselve from admitting guilt (“My body, My choice!”).
____
April 30, Saturday: @speed24man tweet to @misskaceyjordan: “dont pay any attention to her. Your doing what you gotta do (abortion). It’s your life and the only one is you that can make you happy.”
To which Kacey responded: “sometimes I wonder if people forget that it’s MY LIFE, MY DECISIONS…it’s very simple.”
_____
Kacey was clear after her 4th abortion that she was NOT sorry. Yet, she’s consistently called those in her womb babies. “I don’t think this is Charlie’s baby”…after her abortion: “I don’t have a baby anymore”…”This guy spiritually adopted my baby; he named it and everything”…etc.
I agree that tweets to Kacey such as the following are clearly wrong and innappropriate: @wildcatt17 to @misskaceyjordan “you should, you are stupid. You shoud kill yourself, or keep legs closed? Life with no meaning & a tramp..”
But, please know that “righteous anger,” admonishing the sinner, and speaking of God’s justice to those who need such instruction to finally ‘get it’ is not a bad thing. Leading one back to God is not a bad thing. I’m not against you, I’m with you. But, I trust God more than I trust your opinion on the topic of a just God.
Peace,
Damien
I read different monikers here all the time-not gender specific.
For all I know you are a proabort troll posing as a prolifer.
If you’re not, you are preaching to the choir.
HI DOUG!
Damien – I have no idea what you are referring to when you are talking about hypocrisy – what in specific do you find about what was said (myself?) that was hypocritical? What I was trying to say is that Carla IS effective in what she does and she does talk about God’s judgment – and HOW and WHEN is determined by the situation, how the other woman is doing and the specifics of the situation.
Should she talk about God’s justice? YES. Should she tell women the truth about God’s love and mercy? YES. Should she share her own journey and story? YES. Should she get the woman help? YES. But how and when and the specifics and over the time-frame is individualistic.
For example: If I only have 5 minutes to reach a woman to not abort, my conversation with her is different than if I have a 6 year relationship with her and we meet frequently. Teaching/relationships/guiding takes many forms, many venues, many circumstances.
Is that helpful?
My eyes are fully open, thank you. Just in the last month I have talked to the electrician working on the renovation of our local PP, and called him to a greater Unity of Life – of living out his Christian values to include every hour beyond church and to his job. I challenged him to stop working on the building. And after admitting that he ‘put aside his Christian values for his work’ I reminded him that PP and other abortion-providing industries provide sin like no other – and that he should not accept any job from them, since it’s blood money. I also asked him what price for his soul.
If I lead with those two statements, instead of having an honest, charitable conversation for over twenty minutes, we would not have had the conversation we did. And HE has approached me to talk 2 other times.
with the grace of God, we are pricking his conscience. We hope to guide him to a God-fearing life – bringing God into every aspect of his life, including work.
So basically, using charity and still teaching boldly will work. Is that helpful?
I was going to jump in to defend Carla but JoyfromIllinois you said it beautifully.
Damien, I agree with the basic point you are trying to make and I’m not sure where I’m crossing signals with Carla here, but I do want to say you are way off on your assessment of her heart and her character. Carla is a straight shooter as you say you are. That you would think she is full of rage and guilt still is just not correct. She is in a position that you and I will never know. She has LIVED abortion and she knows all about it and what it does to women. Her ministry is different than how you or I might minister. She has a different role to play and there is nothing wrong with that. In the body of Christ we all have different roles but the same end goal! She has righteous anger, believe me. She is also hurting for all these women who are so deceived and laden with guilt and sin. I really respect Carla’s thoughts and her heart.
There is a time to speak of judgment. And there is a time to speak of mercy. That is the point JoyfromIllinois made and I think that is the point Carla was making when she pointed out Jesus did not offer condemnation to the woman taken in adultery.
There seems to be a lot of judgements rolling out on this forum…as for the: “you are a guy?? Good to know. Instead of thanking you I will just say that you are wrong”. I dont get it? If it’s a joke, it isn’t funny, and if it’s not…well, it’s very offensive…and I’m a woman!
Carla, I’m sure your ministry is beautiful, but as I read through these posts I can’t help but hear much defensiveness and promoting of self. Sorry, this is not a judgement of you. I’m just saying how it has comes accross to me (someone who doesn’t know you). This is an internet forum after all…so don’t forget people can only go by what they read. But the fact that you are obviously tirelessly working to help women out of their despair, and trying to save precious lives…well, that’s awesome.
Damien, I actually agree with everything you say. I think the value of men re pro-life, is SO underrated and I applaud you amd the guts it must take….after all, us woman can be NASTY! Haha…just a very humble opinion here, but maybe you couldn’t think about how you word some things here. As I said, I agree with you, but as I mentioned before, I’m an outsider here, & reading some of the way you have worded you arguments….it just might not help re. defensiveness, if you know what I mean. After all, Carla is on our side. Not a money changer in the temple. Btw, I TOTALLY agree with you re God’s righteous anger, and how it is definitely called for at times for us to show this to people who need to hear it. It’s so hard to know which ones need it, isn’t it. I guess that’s where we really need to rely on the Holy Spirit.
The bottom line is, let’s all remember that, really, we are on the same page. Our heart breaks for these babies. We want to show love for the mothers, but to do that, at times we need to show righteous anger, but IN love. What does that mean? Well that’s different for each of us and each situation I guess.
Thank you, Sydney. :)
Sorry, Natalie but some of these people here are family to me. To be judged by Damien and told what my experience with abortion should mean to me and what I should do and should not do with post abortive women by a complete stranger was a bit over the top. To be lectured as though I don’t know God or that God is just? Seriously?
If you told me you had an affair and got divorced I highly doubt I would speak to you the way Damien spoke to me.
Still am wondering if there is a proabort troll in our midst.
No you don’t get what I was saying to Damien and there is no need for you to take offense at something that wasn’t even directed at you.
Damien stated that most people thank him. I won’t be doing that. He is wrong about me.
You made a judgment about me and then told me you weren’t making a judgment about me.
Maybe you could get to know me a bit too, Natalie. Click on my name.
Hey Carla…that was the point I was making. I don’t get it. Maybe you could make such jokes to Damien in person, cos on this public forum it can come across as sexist and defensive.
Carla, I’m sure you have many friends on here and I am sure you are a lovely woman, but there is really no need to now get defensive with me. I was only trying to show you how your words come across to people (some) that don’t know you.
I guess I am wrong. It doesn’t come across that way to me. Silly me. Who am I to say how I feel. I don’t have a blog after all (or do I?). I’m obviously just some dumb chick that isn’t allowed an opinion. My bad.
I’ll leave it to you experts, I guess…
Carla, not everyone is judging you.
This is a public forum. We really need to remember that others (that don’t comment) are reading this.
This is really not about Carla, Damien or Natalie. This is about an issue that breaks our Creator’s heart. I’m going to sign off now. I really don’t think this discussion is helping anyone.
One good thing is to read the entire thread and not comment on individual posts – then at least one sort of knows the line of thought, the interchange, the introduction of new topics and the direction of the conversation.
In the middle of this thread, the tone suddenly changed, and the direct accusations occurred. That is when Carla started explaining (and indeed defending her position – which is her right since another poster here said some things that were attacking in nature and not generous in content and tone).
If the tone could have been different than accusatory and damning, this could have been dealt with. Right now – lots of damage have been done, and things need to be made right.
So please be generous in tone and content. What went on today was called ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water.’ So much for being charitable.
Standards are good, indeed necessary. Kindness is also needed. do everything with love.
While there can be misunderstandings here, it is important to be sure not to attack or be uncharitable. These things can be dealt with beautifully.
*** Sydney posted “In the body of Christ we all have different roles but the same end goal! …There is a time to speak of judgment. And there is a time to speak of mercy. That is the point JoyfromIllinois made and I think that is the point Carla was making when she pointed out Jesus did not offer condemnation to the woman taken in adultery.” ***
I agree with what angle you are coming from, Sydney, re: there’s a time for different roles – mercy, judgement.
Where you are incorrect is Carla was actually saying the God’s justice/brutal facts approach is not appropriate. She assumes all prolifers who institute ’righteous anger’/God’s justice only yell hateful things to women walking into abortuaries – and to post abortive women. That is where she and I disagreed. I tried to convince her of what you are saying, but she wasn’t interested. She came across as 100% mercy, 0% God’s justice to spare women from feeling bad/guilty.
Again, she considers addressing God’s justice as being harmful, unloving, and demoralizing. If it is the approach necessary to finally open a particular post-abortive mother’s eyes, then NOT addressing God’s Justice is harmful and unloving. Why? You’re allowing your own issues to prevent yourself from using the most effective approach to help lead the woman to God. Sometimes we have to step outside our comfort zone to do what’s best for the other. If Carla isn’t comfortable addressing God’s justice or brutal facts of abortion, get over it….for God’s sake, and for the woman’s sake.
If you go back and read Carla’s posts in this thread, you’ll see her criticism of those promoting ‘admonish the sinner.’ Had she stated what you did in the above quote, she and I would not have engaged in today’s debate. We would have been on the same page. As it turns out, we’re not.
It would help if you review Carla’s posts and take this up with her. Have her explain what her issue is with God’s justice. You know Carla and apparently have a friendly history with her. I just wanted to help Carla think before continuing to discourage others from discussing God’s justice with those who need to hear it.
Thanks,
Damien (X,Y)
She assumes all prolifers who institute ’righteous anger’/God’s justice only yell hateful things to women walking into abortuaries – and to post abortive women
No, I do not.
Again, she considers addressing God’s justice as being harmful, unloving, and demoralizing
No, I do not.
If Carla isn’t comfortable addressing God’s justice or brutal facts of abortion, get over it….for God’s sake, and for the woman’s sake.
I am so comfortable addressing God’s justice AND the brutal facts of abortion. I got to live the brutal facts of abortion.
You really have no idea who you are talking about, Damien. You truly do not know.
Can I ask how your posts to me are showing Christ’s love for me? Can I ask how your tone with me is showing me His grace and mercy? Where in your posts are you sharing truth with me in love? Where have you sought first to understand rather than be understood? Do you know the prayers I pray? Do you know what God has impressed upon my heart? Do you know the thoughts I think? Do you know the pain that He has redeemed in my life? Do you know the depths of my soul? Do you know that my deepest pain has become my greatest passion? Do you know how I spend my days reaching out to women?
I have men in my life that are brothers in Christ and would never think of talking to me the way you have. I can feel the difference.
But yes, Sydney please help me.
Damien–Carla wanted to know what, specifically, you might say to a post-abortive woman with whom you were sharing God’s love. This is a question you haven’t answered. Try right now; what would you say to Kacey Jordan if you met her, and find her to be unrepentant about killing her five children?
Carla has already said that what Jespren might say to a pre-abortive woman was not out of line. She is not an unreasonable person. Many on this thread have said very uncharitable things about/to Miss Jordan, and so I can see why Carla is concerned about what people might say to a person who has had an abortion.
It’s reasonable to have an image in one’s head, after reading this thread, of people yelling at women walking out of a clinic, saying things like: “You just murdered your baby! You dog! No, you’re worse than a dog! You’re going to hell!” If this is the impression Carla has of what you would do, I think she’s right to be concerned. I am assuming that as a Christian, you would not be yelling that at a woman who has just been through a terrible procedure, even if she didn’t regret it. So Damien, Kacey Jordan has just walked out of your local Planned Parenthood after having her child killed. Describe your conversation with her.
ycw,
Thank you.
I have stood outside a mill and heard, “Baby Killers! Murderers!” yelled to women before they walked in.
With no offer of help or support or sharing God’s love. Before OR after.
Carla, although I myself have never heard any pro-lifer yell that outside an abortion clinic my friend who aborted said that some pro-lifers yelled that at her as she walked in for her abortion. An abortion she didn’t want. An abortion her family was coercing her into. As her heart was breaking and fear was gnawing at her insides they screamed “WHORE!” at her. I have always wanted to find those pro-lifers and shake some sense into them. They had a chance to save that baby and his mommy and they blew it!
So I think our whole conversation boils down to we think the same thing. You have shared your heart with me many times Carla and I know you think biblically. Don’t sweat it if some people don’t know the real you and get it wrong. God knows your heart and that is the only thing that is important. I think you are a very special lady and you know I have turned to you for your godly advice many times!
If I met a mom who was unrepentant about her abortion(s) I would warn her that we reap what we sow. I would warn her not to tempt a holy God. And I would ALSO talk about God’s love for her and His desire to restore her to wholeness. I would talk about His free gift of forgiveness to those who ask for it. I would NEVER call her names. I would never speak angrily to her.
AMEN and AMEN!!!
Love wins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxsAVkv1DTE
Damien said:
“She came across as 100% mercy, 0% God’s justice to spare women from feeling bad/guilty.”
Damien,
Exagerrations like this don’t help. I have bumped heads with Carla in the past when she thought I was speaking too harshly about women who chose abortion. But to say she doesn’t leave any room for God’s righteous indignation is false. It’s more of an 80/20 thing then a 100/0 thing and there is nothing wrong with that. Carla is a beautiful person just where she is at. She is not defensive against God’s righteous indignation towards post-abortive women; she is defensive against man’s righteous indignation of women. See the difference.
Natalie said:
“I’ll leave it to you experts, I guess…”
Thank you Natalie but “we experts” can’t be here 100% of the time so hang in there. lol
Thank you, Truthseeker.
I love this……
She is not defensive against God’s righteous indignation towards post-abortive women; she is defensive against man’s righteous indignation of women.
“Damein, what do you yell in condemnation and shame and judgment to a woman about to go into an abortion mill?” – Carla
^^^ Assumption made by Carla after reading my first post….no bases to assume I’d be innappropriate…….I just called her out on attacking another poster by stating the following:
“I am waiting to hear the words of fire and brimstone, shame, condemnation and hellfire that Jesperen yells at women.” - Carla
____________
**** Carla posted: “Can I ask how your posts to me are showing Christ’s love for me? Can I ask how your tone with me is showing me His grace and mercy? Where in your posts are you sharing truth with me in love? Where have you sought first to understand rather than be understood?….” ****
I was trying to open your eyes to the fact that at times instructing God’s righteous anger to others is okay. But, you weren’t the least bit open to hearing my insights. You became overly sensitive because you believe you know it all. A little dose of humility would go a long way. Just ask Jesus…..Just ask Mother Teresa…..
_________
Carla is not open to self-improvement for the sake of the ‘walking wounded’:
“Well my goodness Damien you are so right!!!” (sarcasm) – Carla
_____
“(Damien), you are a guy?? Good to know. Instead of thanking you I will just say that you are wrong.” – Carla
_____
“Good grief, Damien.!! Click on my name…..I’ve been a monitor 3 years, have my own blog, my life’s story on video……” – Carla
_______
“You’re preaching to the choir” – Carla
^^^ No room to learn more. Carla knows it all. Good to know. Next…. ^^^
[You can tell someone who is confident in their skills/abilities (e.g., Physician, professor, lawyer) from those who aren’t by they way they handle corrective criticism, advice, new ideas, etc. Those who are confident in what they do, aren’t offended….those who are insecure will exhibit oversensitivity –> as if you are saying they aren’t competent; when you’re only trying to point something out to them that may help them (and their patients, clients) become even better.]
On second thought Damien I am eternally grateful to you for helping me see how I really am.
I appreciate all of your helpful comments and suggestions and might I add that you were absolutely right about me?
I am a better person for having read this thread. Not sure where I would be if I hadn’t met you 2 days ago.
You were right.
WOW. Thank you so much.
Damien,
I must commend you on the spiritual and emotional growth you have inspired in Carla. Although she was originally willful and stubborn, your patient yet firm approach finally brought her to reason. Thank you for remaining so civilized in the face of such unfortunate petulance.
In particular, your last comment masterfully summarized all of her argumentational, logical and moral flaws. I know that I will find it helpful the next time I am called upon to counsel a rebellious sinner. Indeed, as you rightly suggested, one could well apply your wisdom in one’s relationship’s with attorneys, physicians and academics.
Carla, I am glad that you were blessed with Damien’s sage advice. I will pray that you continue to take it to heart, and that you perhaps engage in whatever further introspection you might need on your life’s journey.
Damien,
Why don’t you answer the question ycw asked of you above?
Damien–Carla wanted to know what, specifically, you might say to a post-abortive woman with whom you were sharing God’s love. This is a question you haven’t answered. Try right now; what would you say to Kacey Jordan if you met her, and find her to be unrepentant about killing her five children?
It was the question Carla asked of Damien that you found to be so offensive. Tell us now and you could put this whole thing to rest.
Damian,
I’m a moderator here, and after reading this thread I can assure you that a just God would tear the tongue out of your mouth. That He hasn’t is evidence that His mercy prevails over His justice… for now.
Your assessment of Carla is so vile and vituperative, that I believe you to be inspired not by God, but by Satan. If you are a genuinely soul-searching Christian, and I doubt that very much, then you have a long, long, LONG road to travel until you get to where Carla is today.
It isn’t that you are brutally honest, you’re just brutal.
On the last day, you’ll be begging for the mercy that you are quick to deny others, and God will give you His mercy in the same proportion that you gave it to others. If this thread is any indication, you should invest in some asbestos clothing.
Open season on Carla is now closed. Get the point?
Get well soon.
Damien, I think your refusal to answer the central question–what you would say to a woman about God’s judgment, using Kacey Jordan as an example if you need a specific situation–shows that you are the one unwilling to grow or to respond to criticism.
Giving us this response would have shown those who thought you were overly harsh and judgmental the truth of your approach. If we are wrong in our more gentle approach toward post-abortive women, you will be setting an example and showing us a better way rather than simply putting us down. A teacher would show the approach needed, in addition to criticizing the approaches of the students he was trying to teach. You claim you are trying, in love, to help Carla grow. But Carla’s contention all along has been that insults and rudeness don’t help people grow. It did seem to me like she was being a bit harsh toward you, but now that you have refused a reasonable question–what would be the right thing to say?–and instead just insulted Carla more, I think perhaps she was right and I am wrong. Perhaps you really are an insensitive and vindictive individual. I hope that is not the case–and if it is, perhaps you should swallow your pride and learn from Carla.
Carla has already apologized for judging someone wrongly on this thread:
“Jesperen,
I owe you an apology. Please forgive me for assuming something that is not true about you. I assumed the worst and I am sorry.”
I do not believe Carla is unreasonable. I do not believe she is ignorant of God’s wrath, or allows others to remain ignorant. As a post-abortive woman who repented and came to know God and His healing, Carla has a more personal insight into how to minister to post-abortive women. It seems arrogant for a man who has not experienced abortion to call her wrong while hardly knowing her approach.
I think that it is well-known that Christians think women who kill their children are going to hell–the media makes sure of that. We need to make sure that they know forgiveness is possible. In Matthew Jesus teaches that if we love only our brother, and those who love us, we are not doing more than the pagans or tax collectors. His command is that we love our enemies, and pray for them, and be perfect. This might well involve telling them that the path they’re on will lead to an awful place. But it doesn’t mean insulting or yelling at people. And it never means giving up on someone, thinking they’re not worth it, or thinking they’re too far gone to save. Saul of Tarsus tracked down, arrested, and stoned Christians for sharing the gospel. How much more evil can you get than that? Abby Johnson and Bernard Nathanson were personally involved in the killing of unborn children–and more like hundreds than 5. Norma McCorvey helped make it possible for millions of people to kill their children legally in the US. But all of these people went on to serve the Lord. If there is hope for them–Paul later called himself the chief of sinners–surely there is hope for Kacey Jordan. And Damien. And Carla. And YCW.
Oh. My. Goodness.
Sorry, but I simply cannot believe what I just read above…and from a “moderator”:
“On the last day, you’ll be begging for the mercy that you are quick to deny others, and God will give you His mercy in the same proportion that you gave it to others. If this thread is any indication, you should invest in some asbestos clothing.”
All I can say is I cannot believe the hypocrisy of some people on this site.
You know what? There’s millions of people out there dying and going to hell! What about if you all stop quibbling and get out there and further God’s Kingdom instead of arguing on this forum? I visited this forum for the first time a couple of days ago & I, myself, got sucked in (MY own fault, no blame placing here) & entered into some (unhealthy, now that I re-read it all) debating, which I would like to admit I am sorry for.
You can continue to quibble (about this comment too I’m betting) about Damein, about Kacey, about who’s Holy & who’s going to be “begging for mercy” when Jesus returns, or you can ask the Holy Spirit to bind us together as the mighty force that we can be, with God on our side!
Sorry if I’ve offended, but I truly believe THIS is an example of that case of righteous anger that you’re talking about. I’m only brought to God by grace, so I am just as bad…but please, PLEASE look inside yourselves and ask God whether I might be speaking some truth here…
Natalie,
If you can’t believe that a moderator wrote those words, you’re right. I was paraphrasing Jesus, who tells us that we will receive mercy in the same measure that we show mercy. You may wish to refresh yourself regarding the parable of the unforgiving servant as well.
Damian’s assault on Carla was demonic. Your words about the Holy Spirit do not apply here, as we have a person who shows no appeal to the love and mercy of God, and only to God’s wrath. The Spirit of God is a Spirit of love and forgiveness. Damian is spiritually warped and immature with a model of a punitive God. He is like the elders when they wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery.
Carla’s response to women is that of Jesus to the woman caught in adultery. “Does no one condemn you daughter? Neither do I, go and sin no more.”
Damian’s sin is the sin against charity, which is the most damning of all.
I hope that your Christianity is large enough and mature enough to accommodate sharp rebuke of people such as Damian when they engage in well-intentioned counsel that is satanic in origin. Jesus did as much with Peter when Peter suggested they not go to Jerusalem for Jesus to die:
“Get behind me Satan!” was the rebuke. Damian has a long, long way to go before he’s fit to comment on Carla’s witness, or her spirituality, or her completeness of healing. For what it’s worth, with my first career in counseling and ministry, I think Carla is one of the healthiest, most spiritually grounded, and wisest women I’ve ever had the privilege of knowing. She has also been a mentor and guide to me.
If my responding in kind to such abusive people causes you heartburn; I’m not one to respond to such atrocity with a sweet Prozac smile, especially where Carla is concerned.
God Bless
Sorry, re your “paraphrasing”….I missed the bit in the Bible where Jesus talks about “investing in asbestos clothing”.
This forum does not cause me “heartburn”, nor do I respond with a “sweet Prozac smile”. I am simply very bothered by what I read.
I will pray for you all. Please don’t read any more into this. I’m sure you can accept another believer praying for you.
I am sorry you can not accept my heartfelt comment. I will leave it at that.
Ouch!
Natalie,
I’m bothered by what I read as well. As for asbestos clothes, Jesus talks about the fires of hell for the hard of heart. I agree that it’s best to drop this. As I said, open season on Carla is over, and I stand ready to make that a reality.
Gerard,
Thank you for intervening on this thread. Damien gives new meaning to the word “troll”. Look at his chosen moniker.
Carla,
I’m nauseated by the level of rudeness by certain commenters. You deserve better. We love you. May God keep you in His care.
Pro-lifers, this is truly a spiritual battle between good and evil. Please pray, pray, pray.
Holy smokes, Damien. I stopped posting to this thread a couple of days ago and I come back and find you opened direct fire on Carla. Who do you think you are speaking to her that way? I can’t even read all these posts you’ve made because I’m so angry. I echo the others who have come to her defense, but I am also a little more direct and don’t want to leave anything to misinterpretation. BACK OFF. Any time you want to meet face-to-face and debate the validity of harshly commenting to women who are post-abortive then I will be more than happy to do that. But if aggressively going after someone like Carla is your idea of debating, then you’d better bring another set of skills with you, buddy, because I will mop the floor with you, and I don’t scare easy. You are a coward and a bully, and the way you have distorted the love of God is evil. Yes, God is just, but he is merciful. You are living proof of that.
Carla, I am so sorry. I didn’t know any of this was going on or else I would have spoken up days ago. I love you and I’ve got your back. Grrrr….I am fuming/shaking right now because I am so angry on your behalf. OMG…I can’t even think straight I am so upset.
Damien has graciously shared some additional thoughts here.
Brandolyn,
Anything other than a retraction and an apology from Damian will not be posted here. Carla ia a big girl who can handle herself against all trolls. However, there are just certain things that are beyond decency, against which she should never be made to defend. Damian’s cowardice and cruelty are such an example.
So, make a soothing cup of tea and please don’t be troubled. We all love Carla, and I’ll be the heavy.
God Bless.
Just sticking up for my girl because she stuck up for me. :)
Jespren and Damien seemed to show up together. Just sayin’. Jespren wasn’t nearly as abusive to Carla though. He did like to purger the Catholic faith and if he hadn’t I might have bought into him too. And Damien was jumping to the defense of Jespren. Just sayin again.
Truthseeker, that is an incredibly odd comment and I’m not sure what to make of it. If you look back at previous posts, I’ve been here before. I’ve never posted under any other name, in fact anywhere I post online I use either Jespren or Tigaseren. Since Damien’s name isn’t linked to anything I don’t know for sure, but as far as I know I don’t know the man. I also offered to carry on a particular conversation away from the board (even though that offer was ignored) because I didn’t feel this was a good place for it and Damien appears to have needed the moderators to reign him in.
All in all I feel like your comment is meant to be insulting, or rather, I should say I find myself feeling insulted without quite knowing why. And adding ‘just saying’ to something doesn’t really change the tone.
Anyway, to all of you, not only will *I* only ever post as ‘Jespren’, it’s an extremely unique name and I’ve never seen anyone else using it, so it’s safe to say anything you run into by ‘Jespren’ is *me*. (Btw, *me* is female. Jespren is the name of one of my book characters)
Ugh! Maybe I’m opening a can of worms here. Not trying to step on toes but this is just irritating me so I am gonna come right out and say it. Gonna follow the way Damien did it too.
1. Damien I agree with the points you made about God’s justice AND mercy.
2. I originally thought Carla was advocating not speaking about God’s justice to abortion-minded women which is why I engaged her in debate/conversation about that.
3. Carla was being a little snarky I thought which is unlike her. (not to me, to Damien) but I know she felt very offended by Damien’s posts.
4. Obviously others who know and love Carla were offended also by what they saw as an attack on her character.
5. I didn’t think Damien’s tone was abusive, mean, condescending etc.. (I thought some other people’s tones however were horrible, snarky, immature, and mean) Just my opinion. I couldn’t figure out why all the anger and rage.
6. I do think Damien’s assessment of Carla was WRONG only because I know Carla to be a God-fearing, God-loving warrior for life and truth. I just want to state clearly that Carla is a loving, warm, fantastic woman! I have turned to her many times for advice and I feel a lot of affection and respect for her.
7. I do think it was highly ironic all the shrilling at Damien for “judging” Carla while they judged him. Whats up with that? Damien’s basic points were RIGHT and SCRIPTURAL.
I get the feeling we are all quibbling here with Natalie, Damien, Jespren, Carla, Gerard etc… and we probably all agree. Thats the stupid thing! YES God is a God of JUSTICE. Does anyone dare disagree with THAT? AND God is a God of MERCY and FORGIVENESS to THOSE WHO REPENT! Does anyone disagree with THAT?
Lets put aside the hurt feelings and get to the basics here. What do we think? Believe? Live? I think we are actually all on the same page!
Amen, Sydney.
“I also offered to carry on a particular conversation away from the board (even though that offer was ignored)”
Jespren, just testing to see if you were a troll. btw – I did offer you an opportunity to continue the conversation on a different site (your offer was not ignored). You must have missed it.
Sydney,
Nobody was arguing with Damien that God is a God of justice. We all agreed so there was no need for his condescention towards Carla. It is only right to bring that to his attention so he can walk closer to the way a man of God brings forth God’s message. imo, I would point you and Damien to the post below for a reference of scripture that would be useful to post-abortive mothers. It contains both the consequences of God righteous judgement (without fire and brimstone) and God’s message of mercy.
Jesus came NOT to condemn. The evil condemns itself. Judgemental PEOPLE overuse Jesus’ condemnation of evil to justify their own. See the passage below.
“God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done by God.”
Jn 3:16-21
Damian,
Your comments are not being posted.
Wipe the dust from your feet, as you say. However, telling a woman she is going to hell when she is already acting out of fear, confusion, coercion only adds to her anxiety and drives her into the abortionist’s arms.
We are all well aware of the frightening statistics involving increased suicide rates and death from substance abuse in post-abortive women. Suicide is a function of perceived helplessness and hopelessness in people, and I cannot help but wonder how many of those feeling hopeless had their hope in God’s forgiveness, love and mercy robbed by some self-appointed prophet at a clinic telling her she’s going to hell.
I take my cues from post-abortive women, who universally renounce the message you herald. Sure, you might save an occasional baby, but how many women do you drive to suicidal despair?
It’s a big pro-life movement, so if we are too noxious, I wish you well.
Comments on this thread are now closed, per Jill. Thanks.