Stanek weekend question: How do you tell children about abortion?
Stacy at Accepting Abundance posted this funny yet poignant cartoon today…
My own children were teens by the time I became involved in the pro-life movement, so the topic never came up in our home when they were young.
I realize sometimes the conversation is forced. Yesterday I participated in the Pro-Life Action League’s Truth Tour, and despite the warning signs, I still saw children in cars pass by our graphic pictures. I prayed about the conversations their parents might be compelled to have with them.
How do parents tell their children about abortion? Have you told your children? If so, how old were they? Do you even think this topic is appropriate to broach with children?
Jul.09, 2011 9:58 am |
Weekend question |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If a kindergartener were to ask me what abortion is, I would just say that it’s something very sad, and that a lot of people are trying to stop it. If he or she asked what pro-life meant– a more likely question, since I don’t usually use the word “abortion” with young children present– I would say “Pro-life means we think everybody should be able to live. Even if the person is so young that she hasn’t been born yet and is still inside her mommy’s tummy, we need to treat that baby the way we’d want to be treated.”
If the child were older, I’d refer them to their parents for an age-appropriate explanation.
From the time our children are in existence, they attend pro-life rallies and pray at the abortion clinic with us. I believe the sight of my pregnant belly, my sweet infant in my arms and my adorable toddler at my heel could have a bigger impact on a woman’s decision than my words to her. I also tell my children that their prayers touch God’s heart.
When they are toddlers, they understand we are there to pray to save the babies — it fits with their world view that we, as their parents, are there to protect them and all children. They begin to ask questions around 5 years old. By that time they are very familiar with suffering as we look upon Jesus on the cross at church and at home. I’ve had a 5 year old ask me “Could the abortionist come take our baby and try to kill him?” Although I found the question disturbing, the 5 year didn’t ask in fear, but in trying to wrap his mind around the limits of the evil we were facing. He understood this to be a spiritual battle (something akin to Superman flying in to capture the bad guy) in which we prayed to St. Michael for assistance in protecting the babies. He also knew we, as his parents, couldn’t save every baby.
We validate their pain when they grow in understanding of ‘what is abortion really and how could people actually do that?’. We verbally share their pain and reassure them that we are doing everything we can to stop it. We discuss free will, heaven and hell, and the power of God. They experience anger, then resolve to fight the good fight. All this may happen in a 7 year old’s mind.
Unfortunately, they see the pictures. As parents our goal is not to raise our children in a bubble to protect their minds, hearts and souls — but to inoculate them against evil. We do that by allowing them to see some of that evil and helping them process the information. We strive to give them the emotional, spiritual & educational tools to participate in the battle being waged against their tiny brothers and sisters in Christ. Our children aren’t shut away from the hurt, but in seeing it they are being given the tools to help heal wounds that are being inflicted on our world. Our war is not against flesh and blood, but we fight for the very life’s blood of those sweet babies — and our children assist in that saving work.
I was in 3rd grade when abortion was legalized. I didn’t know anything about it until I was at a function at church and picked up a pro life pamphlet. There was a photo on it of a garbage can filled with aborted children. I couldn’t believe what I was looking at.
I asked my mom about it and she did not shrink from telling me the truth. She explained that sometimes people killed their children before they were born, and that it was horrible.
The initial shock faded away, but it left a mark on me that has never faded. I have always loved children, and even at that time, a child myself, I loved babies. I have always known I would one day be a mother. (God has blessed me and my husband with six!)
I have raised my kids to understand what abortion is. I don’t see the need to ‘sugar coat’ something so heinous. Evil is out there, and they need to know the enemy before it devours them.
That video is hilarious!!! The baby’s gonna poop everywhere now! It’s her choice after all!!! Good one!
It is for this reason exactly that I hate the use of those graphic signs. I don’t want my kids knowing about abortion until I feel like they are old enough to understand. I don’t want to be forced to explain because they see those signs. I want to let my kids be kids, they don’t have to deal with this stuff yet. There is plenty of horrible stuff in the world that they don’t need to know about.
Hahahahaha! This is so funny! But hey, it makes sense – it’s my body and I’ll do what I want with it, so if I want to poop on the carpet, I’ll poop on the carpet :))))
Every year we do a walk to raise money for a local faith based crisis pregnancy ministry. When my children are young, they know it as the “Walk to save the babies”. When/if they ask what we are saving them from, I tell them “some mommies dont want their babies in their bellies and a doctor takes the baby out. The baby is too small and dies. Some mommies dont know better, so we try to help them take better care of their babies when they are in their belly.” This is sufficient in my mind for a 3-6 year old and they usually dont ask more questions beyond that.
As they age, they naturally have more questions and we address them as they arise. I use discretion, knowing what they can handle and understand, and we go from there. It helps too, that I am a childbirth educator and doula, so they are exposed to a lot of pregnant women, diagrams, videos, and pictures. They are very well exposed to fetal development, so that helps in their basic understanding.
I havent shown them pictures or videos of aborted babies and we havent seen any out in public yet. If we did, I would just sadly explain what it was and allow them to absorb it. I believe in being honest, and in turn hope that turns into them building a trust with me. Hopefully in the future they will feel safe enough to ask me the big stuff and trust my responses.
Planned Parenthood helps to write the sex ed program and school nurses will teach them in Montana. “If the changes pass, kids as young as 5 will begin to learn medically accurate names for a number of both male and female “private parts.” Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/14/montana-kindergarten-sex-ed/#ixzz1RcbH6FYS
Do you remember learning to read “cat” with a picture of a cat? I was on a School Health Advisory Committee representing a crisis pregnancy center. PP was on this committee also. My own experience says this is somewhat common.
My opinion is to not only show pictures and to also tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Also point out that one needs to figure out how to pick out a good mate so that this and many other problems do not happen. Abortions, STDs, divorce rates, health care costs, etc. will go down. PP’s own figures of females using birth control in the month they got pregnant and now getting an abortion are in the 50% plus range.
Please do not tell me that I am being judgemental. God does judge as in sending one to hell. The Bible has other quotes including a whole chapter (Ezekiel Chapter 33) about being a watchman and warning others. Not only do I not want anyone to go to hell, I do not want them to have hell on earth.
Patty, how old do you think kids should be when they learn this? If someone tries to teach my kids that stuff before at least junior high I will raise holy hell. It’s my job to teach them at the age I feel is appropriate, not the school.
Children are naturally horrified by abortion. So, how young is too young to explain what it is? Just as children are curious about their bodies, and we give them age appropriate information, so should we start educating our children, little, by little, about abortion.
PP and the public school system (thank you Patty) will be teaching youngsters all about their bodies, with morality left totally out of the picture. They will teach them anatomically correct verbiage and will tell them that it is okay to explore, masturbate and use strange objects in their bodies. They will not tell them about the moral values of their bodies – which is that we are all wonderfully made and we are not simply our bodies, but we are also souls, who have eternal lives.
If you wish to have PP teach your children, then by all means, tell them nothing about their bodies, tell them nothing about their sexuality and certainly, keep mum about abortion. After all, that is what PP is counting on – more customers because the parent has not done their job, which is to be the first teacher of their children.
My children are 4 and 6. My parenting philosophy is to let God bring them to awareness about ugly things in His timing. Therefore, I don’t set out to inform them on the weighty issues of life but neither do I work to guard them from knowing things that surround us. Our family supports two different local pregnancy centers and through that association my children have become well informed on human development in the womb – they are also aware that it can be more scary than exciting for a woman to learn that she has a baby, if she doesn’t feel like the people around her are happy about her baby and helpful in all the work that comes with being a mommy, and that is why we help. Right now they live in innocent understanding that God gives life and God takes it away and they don’t pause to consider that people take one another’s lives. It just so happens that we haven’t encountered a graphic abortion display but if we did, I know that it’s because that is the moment that God has ordained to bring greater awareness to their hearts. We also support a campus ministry that uses graphic displays to stir up dialogue – their literature is often left on our table/counter/desk but the kids haven’t tuned ito it.
I distinctly remember a season when I was a child where it felt like the evilness of the world suddenly came to light (large earthquake, plane hijacking, serial killer on the loose… all within a year or so of my budding awareness). I trust that as I teach my kids to be attentive to the world around them and engaged in serving others, there will naturally come a time when their eyes see what’s really going on.
My two oldest are 6 and 8 and not ready for the topic. I once saw one of those shock trucks driving down the freeway, and I took a different route.
I thought Kelsey’s response was very good.
Patty – that article was from over a year ago – what ever happened with the proposed legislation?
All of my children know about abortion and my own abortion. They are 14, 11, 7 and 5. I told my oldest two when they were 10 and 8 years old. They have been in the audience when I have told my abortion story. They know about their sister and two brothers(miscarried)in heaven.
The oldest have seen all of the ultrasounds of their siblings, felt the movement, knew all about life beginning at conception. Pretty standard stuff when mom is throwing up and getting bigger. They also knew when I had miscarriages and I honestly told them what had happened.
I think that if every student saw a video of an abortion before they graduated we wouldn’t be where we are now. Show them the truth. So they can speak it to others.
****
A woman who was proabortion asked a mother, “How can you allow children to see those horrible pictures?” The prolife mother asked her, “How can you allow children to become those horrible pictures?”
I am dreading having to explain this to my son. Especially because he’s adopted, and he could have easily been one of the casualties of this holocaust.
Amen, Lee!!! PP is always waiting to drive that wedge between parents and their children and become that trusted “friend” to go to for birth control and to clean up those little messes of STD’s and pregnancies.
PS
This topic will always be an ongoing conversation I have with my children. As they ask questions, I will answer. It’s not a one time deal. Like “the sex talk.”
Even my youngest has seen a photo of an aborted child. He said, “Oh, that poor baby!”
We talk to our little children about “saving babies” with 40 Days for Life, but also about abortion in Biblical terms. They are familiar with the stories of both Pharaoh and King Herod and that in both cases Satan used wicked men to try to prevent God from accomplishing His purposes. We fight in a continuation of that battle.
Before a certain age, about 10-13, kids are concrete in their thinking. I think that before kids are abstract thinkers is the best time to show them the nuts and bolts of pre natal murder. They really need to see the horror of it before some sophists come along with all the abstract BS about rights, etc. Also, they younger they are, the more they will identify with the child rather than the mother who doesn’t want a baby. Since kids are under their parents protection, they have more of a gut reaction to a parent who would destroy a child rather than protect him. So, I would say about age 7-9 is about the right time to show the gruesome truth to kids. The photographic evidence is essential. Just as Eisenhower insisted on a photographic record of the concentration camps, so no one could hide the truth.
Gov. Brian Schweitzer of Montana vetoed the bill that arose from the Helena school board sex ed program and that had passed the State Legislature.
He vetoed House Bill No. 456 (HB 456), “AN ACT ALLOWING FOR PARENTAL CONTROL OVER STUDENT PARTICIPATION IN COURSES OF INSTRUCTION INVOLVING HUMAN SEXUAL EDUCATION; REQUIRING A SCHOOL DISTRICT TO INFORM A PARENT OR GUARDIAN WHEN EVENTS OR COURSES ON HUMAN SEXUALITY WILL BE HELD OR TAUGHT; PROHIBITING A SCHOOL DISTRICT FROM ALLOWING ANY ABORTION SERVICES PROVIDER TO OFFER MATERIALS OR INSTRUCTIONS AT A SCHOOL; AMENDING SECTION 20-5-103, MCA; AND PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE DATE.” http://governor.mt.gov/news/docs/041311-HB456-Smith-Opt-InForHealthEdCurriculum.pdf
In other words, PP, etc. can teach whatever they want. Teach the truth so that others know a lie when they hear one.
Age 7 to 9? Um, not my kids. I would no sooner show them aborted baby photos to my kids at that age than I would show them bondage porn. And I don’t appreciate them being shown in public arenas where I can’t always prevent them from seeing them. Free expression and all that, but I really don’t like it.
Thanks, ex-GOP.
It’s completely and totally acceptable and appropriate! My daughter is 8 but I have been prolife long before she was born. She knows about abortion and birth control, and birth itself.
Our children are the future and they should be fully aware of what abortion is.
My daughter is 8 and we are going to be volunteering at the fair in our town again at the life booth. We don’t have the graphic images of abortion, however we do have the very real pictures and life models of babies how they look in the womb. She and I handed out the most stickers and coloring books to kids and talked to kids about babies and how precious they are and how they need to be protected. Our kids are one of the biggest weapons we have and the prochoice side totally knows it.
My daughter does know what abortion is and she knows it’s wrong. She knows that I was asked if I wanted to terminate her, and she knows I refused with more than a little annoyance. She knows how the abortion is performed and she knows how pro choice our president is. It makes her very angry that our president allows babies to die no matter how far in the pregnancy they are.
So yes it is totally acceptable. When the children are of an age where they can understand then tell them all about abortion and what it does to babies and women. Up till then show them pictures of what they looked like when they were growing before they were born. Emphasize how precious and important life is. Let them interact with DS, kids and other kids with abnormalities that, had they been detected prebirth, would have them aborted.
Hi Jack,
What age do you think is appropriate for your children? Just curious.
I have carried images of intact human embyros/fetuses and I have carried gaphic photos of the victims of abortion. I prefer the intact because of the inherent beauty, but some times humans need to confronted with the brutaly reality of abortion.
If for no other reason it is keep them from being able to claim they did not know when somewhere down the road they are questione about what they did or did not do.
My children saw both when they were young. They all went to the butcher shop with their mom when she went grocery shopping.
In rural areas where people still raise and butcher their own livestock children are often involved in stickin the pig, ringing the chicken’s neck and killing the fatted calf.
Children are bombarded with violent images on television, the movies and video games. I have never witnessed or read about children suffering sever emotional trauma as a result.
The people who most object to the graphic images of dismembered human embryos/fetuses are those who have beem complicit in the killing or those who want to keep the violence hidden.
Hi Carla,
I am not completely sure. Probably around eleven or twelve. I do not object to them learning about the normal development of pregnancy, and age appropriate discussions about sexuality, but they don’t need to know about thr horrible ways that some pregnancies end until they are older. I would like my kids to have a childhood at least somewhat sheltered from the knowledge of the horrible things that people can do to children. I didn’t get that, I want them to.
Btw, my wife thinks I am completely ridiculous and over-protective on matters like this, so I probably am. I just really don’t want them exposed to it.
I remember when I first heard the word ‘abortion’. I was 13. That was 1978. I was reading a magazine article written by author Joyce Maynard(who, ironically wrote many CHILDREN’S books) practically BRAGGING about her abortion. She was married, had a job, and already had a child. She pretty much bragged that she just did it because she COULD.
Anyway, when I saw the word ‘abortion’ I asked my mother what it meant. She told me (if I recall correctly) that if a woman was pregnant, and didn’t want to be, she paid a doctor to kill the baby for her. Loving babies as I always have, and being very naiive about people’s reasons for having an abortion, I just couldn’t imagine why anyone would NOT want their baby, or why they would want to KILL him/her. I knew what adoption was, but until then I never knew people just KILLED their babies if they didn’t want them/couldn’t take care of them. I exclaimed “WHO would want to do THAT???” My mother just shrugged and said “Some people just do”. I became “PRO-LIFE” (though I didn’t know the term then) right then and there, and have worked and done everything I could to put a stop to it. I started writing letters to congressmen, senators, legislators, etc. and later became a volunteer at a Crisis Pregnancy Center. My daughter is four, so the topic has never come up yet.
I like hippie’s point. Once a child gets to 14 or 15, they consider themselves adults. They think: “Hey! What if I don’t want kids around while I’m being all, like, adult and stuff?”
If they think about this when they’re a few years younger than that, they’ll think: “Hey! That could happen to my little brother or sister, cousin, or neighbor! That would be wrong.”
“Age 7 to 9? Um, not my kids. I would no sooner show them aborted baby photos to my kids at that age than I would show them bondage porn.”
Would you allow a 7-9 year old to see pictures of holocaust victims, like a field trip to the holocaust museum?
On occasion our children and I drive by an abortion clinic and the word Abortion in huge letters. My children have asked what abortion is when they were younger (perhaps five years old), and I explained that abortion is sadly the killing of a baby before he or she is born. That simple. They naturally find that exceedingly abhorrent. As they grew older, they asked why and how it is done, and I have provided responses as they could understand.
While I don’t show them graphic photos, I wouldn’t steer them away from the photos as I had seen them as a kid. The photos were disgusting to me; but I do not believe I was traumitized, nor was my childhood stolen from me. Rather, I believe it helped me, as I later learned the facts of life, to realize how serious sexuality was — that a consequence of sex, the product of conception, is a real living human that can be dismembered. That helped me keep my pants on as a teen-ager and preserved my innocence more than steering clear of abortion photos would have as a child.
It is our job to protect children and their innocence as much as possible. Our children are being robbed of their childhoods.
I also agree with Kelsey–it’s much better to focus on the positive pro-life aspect. And take your cues from your child. Is he/she ready?
For those who don’t want PP teaching their children about sex or abortion, check out homeschooling. It worked beautifully for my 4 girls and for many many friends. (One bonus: colleges like homeschoolers:)
@hippie,
No, I wouldn’t.
Great question, Jill. I have 3 kids, ages 5, 4, and 2, and my husband and I are intimately involved with a pro-life/anti-abortion non-profit. The discussion about abortion is an ongoing one in our house. We have never gone into detail with them, but all of our kids know that we work against abortion in order to “save babies”. It all begins with teaching them the value of all human life, in and out of the womb. The deepest we’ve gone with them on the specifics of abortion is this (I’ll tell it as a story of an interaction between my oldest son and me): ”Mom, do you know what dad does when he goes to work?!” ”What, sweetie?” ”Well, sometimes mommies have babies in them and they don’t want them, well, daddy helps to save their babies!” The look of excitement on his face and in his voice was priceless.
I wrote an article about this on my blog a few days ago. Feel free to read it if you’d like. :) http://www.pottytrainingandpolitics.com
Great question, Jill. I have 3 kids, ages 5, 4, and 2, and my husband and I are intimately involved with a pro-life/anti-abortion non-profit. The discussion about abortion is an ongoing one in our house. We have never gone into detail with them, but all of our kids know that we work against abortion in order to “save babies”. It all begins with teaching them the value of all human life, in and out of the womb. The deepest we’ve gone with them on the specifics of abortion is this (I’ll tell it as a story of an interaction between my oldest son and me): ”Mom, do you know what dad does when he goes to work?!” ”What, sweetie?” ”Well, sometimes mommies have babies in them and they don’t want them, well, daddy helps to save their babies!” The look of excitement on his face and in his voice was priceless.
Jack,
Thanks for your honest answer.
Some encouragement for you.
My 14 year old son is thinking of starting a prolife club when he gets to high school. He picks out the tshirts he orders for himself and his friends for Prolife Tshirt Week and is always ready when someone asks him at school, “What does prolife mean?” He wants to go to prolife camp and has told me on more than one occasion that when he knows any teenager is pregnant he will have them call me so I can tell them about my abortion. Last night he carried the banner for our Pregnancy Life Care Center with my husband in a nearby town parade.
He is a prolife warrior and it started when I told him the truth. I started with a photo of a small child who died in a saline abortion. Small, perfect and precious with blackened skin from the saline. He was deeply moved. The torch has been passed to the next generation of prolifers. :)
My two older children heard about abortion in the third grade, when their teacher told them that it is a thing mothers do with doctors to kill their babies. My son and daughter were horrified and wanted to know if it was true.
So, I said a quick prayer to the Holy Spirit and then engaged in the judicious and therapeutic use of truth.
I explained that no mother wants to kill her unborn baby, and that many are afraid and confused when they learn that there is a baby in their womb (all true enough).
I then explained that there are some very evil doctors and nurses who lie to the mommies and try to trick them by saying that she really doesn’t have a baby, that it’s just a clump of cells that will eventually become a baby (also true).
I went on to explain that the evil doctors then tell the mommy that they will take out this “clump” if she feels she isn’t ready to be a mommy. and that’s when they perform the abortion.
Next, I explained that I have many women friends who were tricked by evil doctors, and that it’s my job and their job to teach people the truth so that we can put these evil doctors out of business.
My daughter’s beautiful reply was, “Why don’t you just tell those doctors that it isn’t nice to kill babies, because they used to be babies too.” Ahhh… if only….
The children need to be assured that mommies don’t really want their babies killed, as children naturally ask themselves, “What will happen to me?” I would have preferred putting that discussion off a few years, and bitterly resented a Catholic school teacher abusing children that way, filling their hearts with mortal fear for their own lives.
For now, they’re satisfied. They know that they are loved and safe, and that my wife and I, along with our friends are doing all we can to end this barbarity.
Thank you, Gerard!! God bless you and your love for post abortive women! You understand the lies of omission and the coercion that goes on.
When I told my son and daughter about my abortion I was a little scared about what they might say. My son said, “I am so angry!” I figured he was mad at me. I asked him to tell me about his anger. He said, “I am so angry that they lied to my mom!”
Thank you for sharing Carla. I realize that I need to pass the torch to the next generation. I would really love to keep my kids in a bubble, but I know it isnt realistic. Lucky they are young enough still that I still have a few years to figure it out.
Jack,
That first conversation is the hardest. Tis true. But I would much rather it be me and my husband who start it.
You will know when the time is right for you and your family and it will be with much conviction that you pass your torch.
Claire,
You rescued him!! You saved him!! You will be more of a hero to your son than you are now! God bless you!!
I am dreading having to explain this to my son. Especially because he’s adopted, and he could have easily been one of the casualties of this holocaust.
Kind of off-topic, but my parents never talked to me about abortion. I remember the first time hearing about abortion was on a talk show (don’t remember which one) where they had a mother and a daughter, and the mother revealed to her daughter that when she was pregnant, she had an abortion, only she was carrying twins and one of the twins (her daughter) survived while the other didn’t.
I wish I could remember what talk show it was. I had to be about 10 or 11. I want to say it was Ricki Lake, though I don’t think it was.
SomeGuy, my parents didn’t talk much about abortion either. The first time I heard about abortion was in fourth grade. I was doing a biography report on a famous ballet dancer, and in the book I read it said that his mother died following a botched abortion. I had a fairly high reading level so I was reading an adult biography of him, not a book meant for children. I didn’t know either word, so I asked my mother. She said it was a surgery for women who didn’t want to have a baby, but botched meant messed-up, that the doctor did something wrong. I had never before that point even considered that doctors COULD do something wrong.
Twenty years later, the word “botched” still has a much more shudder-inducing emotional effect on me than the word “abortion.” I cringe when people say that someone “botched the job” or whatever. I always think of blood.
How would you discuss such an issue with a higher functioning individual with developmental disabilities? I was watching a movie with my clients at their home and a scene came up in which a woman had complications of an illegal abortion and a doctor was sought and treated her. All the meanwhile, my client was sitting next to me somewhat understanding the premise of the pregnant woman in the movie, excitedly stating, “She’s having a baby!?” “She’s having a baby!” when in fact the opposite was true. I wasn’t even sure if I should, in professionalism, broach such a contraversial topic or even how to explain it. Instead, I sat there & kept my mouth shut.
Among a table of free books for children (donated) I found a book called “Alone: A story for children … about abortion,” written by Gale Patrick Brennan, photography by Gerald Kosher, published by Alone, P.O. Box 102, Elm Grove WI. Copyright 1979.
I thought it was awful and probably pro-abortion until I read through. In the book parents want to explain to a middle school boy why an expected child would not be his new sibling. The boy was sad and on the last page the mother wonders that everything had seemed so right before, now she felt “hollow, and restless, and empty … and alone.”
I g00gled what organizations might be at Elm Grove, WI but did not find anything.
If I have children, I think I will wait for them to come to me and ask what abortion is. Depending on the age of the child, the right response might be that it is something very sad and I will tell you all about it later. Later, I would say that it is very, very sad because abortion is what we call it when babies die before they are born. Or, if the child is older, that it is how babies are murdered before they are born, again starting by saying it is very, very sad.
The abortionist lies make me very, very angry. Imagine how persuasive they could be for a woman who is afraid and has not been told a lot about pregnancy and even less about abortion.
The truth is our greatest weapon.
JackBorsch – graphic abortion photos and bondage porn? REALLY? Where is the connection?
Claire – all of our sons are adopted – they have been out on the pro-life lines with us – my eldest son and my youngest son were targeted for abortion by CPS by their social workers – thank God their biological moms said “No, HELL no!”
All my sons know about my abortion, however, I did not tell them until they were around seventeen or so – and that was not of my doing, but of a sense of “now is the time.” and a lot of prayer prior to that day – not knowing when ‘that day’ would come. Each of them learned about my abortion individually and we have had good conversations.
My eldest son wrote an essay when he was in the 8th grade – it was entitled “Some of my best friends are human” The essay was/is moving and he got right to the point – no one, not one person should be killed for any reason what so ever, after all, some of his best friends were human and their generation was already missing one third of their classmates.
I am so grateful that my sons were not among those who were counted in this holocaust.
When my surviving twin is old enough to understand, 7 or 8 years-old, I will tell him an abortion saved his life, I will tell him his identical twin brother was very sick and dying and his twin’s very existence was killing him, so I had to let him go so he may live.
When he asks me about the newspaper articles featuring his father and I, the videos and personal pictures helping to defeat Referred Law 6 and Initiated Measure 11, I’ll tell him that I was propelled into helping defeat those bills because they said I didn’t have the right to make the medical decision to save his life. I’m sure he’ll be thankful I helped save his life.
Gerard and Carla,
Thank you for putting the blame for this blight on our society where it belongs: on those who should know better – namely doctors, nurses, medical technicians. And I would add biology teachers. There’s no excuse for these “Hippocratic hypocrites” to not be at the head of the March For Life by the millions.
Telling this truth is easier done on children. It’s “the other side” that stop up their ears and assume we are blaming and not “trusting” women. (More specifically, mothers.)
Rachael C.
I would have done the same as you.
No need to have that conversation.
PS I miss working at group homes.
Tiffany,
You sound angry. You have an ax to grind.
He might be thankful that your abortion saved his life.(If that is how you are going to explain your experience)He might also feel a deep sense of loss for his twin. He may have survivor guilt that his twin died so he could live. There may be sadness and grief. There are stages of grief that one must walk through. If that is the case I hope you are prepared for that as well. If you have not come to terms with your grief your son will take his cues from you.
I wouldn’t be too sure. You can’t predict how a child will feel.
Tiffany, my heart hurts just thinking of how difficult a situation that must have been for you. I hope your family is doing well.
Selective reduction abortion is not the usual treatment for twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. Your case must have been very severe. I’m against abortion for any reason, but it’s cases like yours that help me to see that an exception for preserving life might be an acceptable compromise. It’s too bad the legislation wasn’t written to also include the life of a multiple, so that thousands of other babies lives could have been saved as well.
“I explained that no mother wants to kill her unborn baby, and that many are afraid and confused when they learn that there is a baby in their womb (all true enough).”
Gerard,
With my utmost admiration and respect, I do not see how the highlighted portion of your assertion can be true, at least not in America.
The continuing data indicates females who have multiple abortions.
All these women cannot plead ignorance about how they came to be pregnant and about what was going in their uterus.
They may have labored intensely at being willfully ignorant about the humanity of their pre-natal child,
[LORD knows this site is replete with examples of such women…….and men.]
but a refusal to acknowledge and accept the truth does not change the fact: These women who abort multiple times know they are killing their own child.
Most adult females probably know it the first time they choose to ‘choice’ their pre-natal child.
HJ,
In all the time I spent outside an abortuary I never saw one woman being co-erced or forced to go into the building.
I do acknowledge that it does happen occasionally.
Some blame may be attributed to an apathetic or indifferent society for allowing the slaughter to continue, but the primary victims are not volunteering to be dismembered and killed.
Their own mothers are choosing to ‘choice’ them because their mothers ‘want to’.
“It’s “the other side” that stop up their ears”…
HJ,
I believe ‘the other side’ stop up their Rears…..with their heads.
That explains their dour and dismal outlook on life.
Carla, I’m not angry, I was able to make a crucial medical decision without government intrusion, I feel awful for the women who are not able to do that, it’s heartbreaking. Think of Danielle Deaver in NE. And most twinless twins do feel like something is missing. But that didn’t play a part in my decision to do anything I could to save my survivor, who is a very happy 4-year-old.
// but a refusal to acknowledge and accept the truth does not change the fact: These women who abort multiple times know they are killing their own child. //
Does it knot your panties to know that 50 million women have aborted just since Roe? 50 million non-homicidal women who span the demographic and ideological spectrum – including Republicans, Christians and *gasp* “Pro-lifers?”
Cut the crap and let women decide their medical reproductive fate without your smarmy intrusions.
Tera, its heartbreaking that over 50 million precious lives have been lost since Roe. I have no problem with women deciding their own reproductive fate. I do have a problem with them killing their unborn children.
You think intruding to save a life is “smarmy”, other people feel it is heroic. In fact, I’ll bet there are instances where you believe that intruding to save a life is heroic. (spousal abuse, child abuse, etc)
I doubt knowing that 50M women have aborted in the U.S. since Roe would get anyone’s panties in a knot, since 50M women in the U.S. have not had an abortion since Roe v. Wade. It’s more like 26M women, since about half of all abortions per year are repeat abortions.
But even still, so what? You wouldn’t be arguing that the more people who do something per year means the more acceptable it is, would you? Because if you’re going to argue that chain of logic, one could argue that there’s nothing inherently wrong with, say, burglary or larceny-theft, both which occur at a greater frequency per year than do abortion, since that’s nothing more than people deciding their own economic fates and whatever other euphemism you want to use.
Edit: And let’s be frank. A scant 3% of abortions have anything to do with the health of the fetus; another 4% have to do with the health of the mother; and less than half a percent of all abortions are due to rape. Let’s just say we grant abortions to be legal for the aforementioned cases. Now what about the other 93%’ish of abortions?
Oh man, ONLY 26 million!
I have to change my mind then. ONLY 26 million (Christian, Republican, “pro-life” and other) women have chosen to terminate their pregnancies.
Do you ever feel stupid playing pretend? It does no good to act as if normal women (in your own inner circle) don’t have abortions.
The reasons they do, irrespective of percentiles, is theirs and theirs alone.
Mind your own business.
Thanks for editing, bud, but the numbers are as irrlevant as the reasons. Women get abortions because …. *drum roll* .. THEY DON’T WANT TO BE PREGNANT!!!!!!
Seriously, a 7th grader could figure that one out.
But thanks for raising the rape issue, as if you’re stipulating it’s a more acceptable reason to abort. Leave it to control freaks to decide which fetuses are sacrosanct. I mean, the ones conceived non-consensually aren’t quite as human. Right?
Wow! What a troll invasion suddenly!
Even after years of reading pro-life blogs it still surprises me just how much pro-aborts are full of anger and bitterness…. God save them!
Hi Tera and Charlies Angels,
There is no swearing allowed. So I deleted some of your comments.
Let’s get back on track shall we?
Telling children about abortion.
Um I didn’t swear….unless “eff” is a new curse word. But I see how you roll here Carla. Dissenting opinions…not ok, suggesting people who made difficult choices are baby killers and sinners, ok. Closed mindedness galore. Nice forum. You must be SO proud.
Generally speaking, most pro-lifers should not have a fear about traumatizing their young children by telling them the truth about abortion in an age appropriate way. After all, we are pro-life! Young kids feel comforted knowing their parents are loving and protecting little children like themselves. And parents should teach their kids by word and example how Christian love operates. (Like putting others before yourself…you know…the stuff self-centered people despise.)
I found out about abortion (with pictures) from my Mom, in the kitchen, in 1970…I was 7 years old. I’ve been happily pro-life for 41 years.
I would not advise pro-choicers to discuss this subject with their young children. Their explanations may well cause fear in their heart. Pro-chiocers ought to wait until puberty at least.
(Actually, I would prefer they not say anything at all…but they probably won’t do that.)
We all know what “eff yourself” stands for CA.
I see how you roll too. If you can stay around awhile you will notice dissenting opinions galore minus the swearing. You want to have a mature, open, honest discussion? Be my guest.
I am a baby killer and a sinner. Nice to meet you.
Carla – If “eff” is a new swear word, or anything subbed in – I believe that cartoon number five should be taken out as well – it contains SOB, which is a substitute for a swear word.
I mean, if we aren’t censoring and just being equal.
I am talking about the rules of commenting.
You can email Jill about the cartoons she chose to post.
jillstanek@comcast.net
That is beautiful – so the rules are so important that they must be followed by, well, whoever the moderators deem should follow them.
I’m not saying that the previous comments weren’t out of line – but they could have easily been censored slightly while leaving the post – or a warning could be given first. I mean, again, it would be pretty easy to see that swearing, or substitutes for, are tolerated on this board since the lead post at this moment has a cartoon with a substitute for swearing in it.
Oh man, ONLY 26 million!
That’s a difference of 24M. Pretty big ;)
I have to change my mind then. ONLY 26 million (Christian, Republican, “pro-life” and other) women have chosen to terminate their pregnancies. Do you ever feel stupid playing pretend? It does no good to act as if normal women (in your own inner circle) don’t have abortions.
You don’t have to change your mind. You just need to go back, re-read what I wrote out and answer the question posed to you. Are you saying that the more people who engage in something, the more acceptable it is? If it is, then explain to me why stuff like burglary and larceny-theft aren’t acceptable, especially since each occurs more frequently per year than do abortion. If that’s not what you’re saying, then why does it matter how many women have had abortions throughout the years?
The reasons they do, irrespective of percentiles, is theirs and theirs alone. Mind your own business.
I’ll bite. So why isn’t it anyone else’s business? Do you extend that logic to everything, or just those things you wish to extend it to?
Thanks for editing, bud, but the numbers are as irrlevant as the reasons. Women get abortions because …. *drum roll* .. THEY DON’T WANT TO BE PREGNANT!!!!!!
Seriously, a 7th grader could figure that one out.
Well, no. Women most often get abortions not because they’re don’t want to be pregnant, but because they say they’re not ready to be a mother, because they say they can’t afford to take care of a kid, because they just don’t want to take care of a kid, because they want to have a career, because they want to go to school, because they’re having relationship problems or any such other reason that is not gender dependent and would affect a man equally. Everyone who takes just five minutes out of their day to look it up would know this. If a 7th grader could figure it out, why can’t you?
But thanks for raising the rape issue, as if you’re stipulating it’s a more acceptable reason to abort. Leave it to control freaks to decide which fetuses are sacrosanct. I mean, the ones conceived non-consensually aren’t quite as human. Right?
No, I’m pointing out that stuff like rape, incest, maternal health and fetal defects are red herrings within the abortion debate. Generally speaking, you’ll find that the same people who center their argument around the aforementioned circumstances would also, surprisingly, not argue that abortions should be restricted in circumstances outside of those cases. Why bring them up as arguing points when they don’t constitute a meaningful portion of your argument?
…And, fwiw, straw men suck and people who make do of them are stupid.
Pretty sure we all need to follow the rules, ExGop.
Thanks for the advice about moderating. I appreciate it.
CA,
There is no namecalling either which is why your last post is gone.
Ok let’s try this again. EXACTLY ex GOP!! from the tone set by the SOB cartoon I clearly had reason to believe I was free to “imply” a curse word when telling anyone who can’t see a reason to let a 20 week old fetus with no nose, a brain that didn’t divide and no chance to survive, that they could go play hide n go seek by themselves. And who knew that actually pointing out the irony of having such a cartoon and yet deleting comments that played by those rules would cause, yet again, a deletion. Um, excuse me madam moderator, will you be deleting the comment from “Vita” where we were called “trolls” ? Last time I checked that was name calling! I’m done here….I’m sure there’ll be some reason not to approve this comment.
As if Jill herself doesn’t name call.
As if Jill herself doesn’t name call.
So you’ve been lurking here awhile? Only just now decided to say something? Why is that?
Maggie caught me looking at something about abortion online once. It was when I was pregnant with her brother. She asked me what abortion was. I told her it’s when a mommy doesn’t want their baby in their tummy, and they pay a doctor to kill the baby and take it out. She was horrified, and I held her, and she cried a little (she’s a very sweet girl who has a lot of compassion and empathy for others. She would share anything with anyone, even if she didn’t have anything left afterward. She makes me proud.) and I explained that I’m trying to change the law to make it say that mommies and doctors can’t do that to their babies anymore, and to change it to protect those babies all the time. She said they should, was satisfied with this, and we moved on from that and she hasn’t asked anything more about it since.
When she’s old enough, I’ll tell her the truth about her father wanting me to abort her. Probably (this is more wishful thinking. I should say “hopefully”) when she’s at least 18.If it comes up in the “birds and bees” talk, then earlier, I guess.
Hey xalisae,
I dont want to sound nosy, but I would really be careful how you tell her that. It is extremely difficult to realize how much parent wanted you dead. I still think I would rather not know that the only reason I wasn’t aborted is because my Dad wouldn’t let my mom go through with it.
Your Dad sounds like a wonderful man. But do you think your view of abortion would be different now if you didn’t know? That to me is what is most important. That she know and understand that we are not talking about abstracts. That these lives that pro-aborts insist are “potential lives” of “potential persons/human beings” are not potential, but actual, and that hers was in fact one of those actual lives.
I understand it’s hurtful. The idea of it hurts me every day, to this day. But it’s still the truth.
Nah, my Dad is a very bad person who managed to do one thing right. Which just goes to show that you don’t even have to be a good person to know abortion is wrong. And you are right, I probably wouldn’t feel so strongly about abortion if I hadn’t come so close to being a victim of it. I just think it’s so sad that your daughter has to know that. At least she has you to help her through it.
I would tell my daughter that there is a huge movement of the right that want to make decidsion reguarding YOUR BODy and your future choices. If they get thier way and you get pregnant because you are ready to start a family, and your baby has no brain and other important stuff like that- Stuff you need to live with like a live and the right amount of chromosones-You will be FORCE to have this baby even if your health is at risk and you may die.
Id tell her the truth.
This topic could be switched by a few words and become a conversation for a Al Qaida family…
They are taught to hate early too.
i had a bunch of pro life xtranormal movies at youtube.com/abortionequalsmurder but my account was taken down for some mysterious reason.
folsom, please point out specific posts that advocate “hate”. According to your post, you are the one willing to manipulate what you call “truth” (by using extreme hypotheticals and terms like “force” referring to what is, simply, human reproduction) without ever discussing with your daughter what happens to the unborn in an abortion.
Thank you for acknowledging the movement recognizing the right to life for ALL is huge.
And I have one more question….Why would you teach a child about YOUR opinion when they are not old enouggh to learn the facts on BOTH sides? I taught my boys compassion and they turned out to be the people they were meant to be. I didnt terrorizing them like the terrorists teach their children…and showin a child a picture of a dead baby should be a felony because it is terrorism..are you teaching them about the infidels too and how to use an automatic weapon at age 5 ?
Felony? Terrorism? Do you suggest we arrest all parents who raise their kids in ways you disapprove of? And who is advocating hate here? For the most part, everyone who posts here is pretty compassionate.
for the most part, the anti choicers have proven themselves to be terrrorists….bombings, murders in church, harrassmant of women. Its not safe to get an abortion because of YOU GUYS! and abortion is legal, homegrown terrorism is not.
“for the most part, the anti choicers have proven themselves to be terrrorists….bombings, murders in church, harrassmant of women.”
Funny, I don’t remember doing any of that. Don’t confuse the extremists of a movement with the majority of the practitioners. The vast majority of people who are pro-life condemn those type of activities as much as we do abortion.
folsom,
Whatever you tell your daughter about what to do with your grandchild is up to you. Your “choice.”
In the extremely rare occurance that your grandchild had a disability incompatible with life your daughter may choose to let your grandchild live as long as she can instead of dismembering your grandchild in utero.
http://www.benotafraid.net
Oh lookeee here Madame moderator, Carla, piped back up after ignoring my question as to why “name calling” of pro choice supporters as “trolls” was (and STILL has not) been removed like mine using the term hypocrites was. Very fair and balanced here. Excellent work. Faux News ought to hire you.
and showin a child a picture of a dead baby should be a felony because it is terrorism
And yet you seem to think the act of killing the baby in the first place is legal and acceptable. How does that work, exactly?
Showing pictures = doesn’t kill anyone.
abortion = dead baby
The former is worse why, exactly?
In response to the weekend question, I am reminded of a prayer request that went out just about a year ago, for those at the abortuary where I sidewalk counsel. Parents were being kept from seeing their minor daughter who was inside aborting their grandchild. We got the notice as we were sitting down to dinner, and my girls & I prayed right then, torn by how distraught they must feel to know what was happening. I know very well the woman who was “on” sidewalk counseling then, and prayed God’s Grace to her to comfort the grandparents in the midst of such turmoil.
As we drove home that night, my then 6-year-old asked, “Mom? Did the baby die?” I answered her truthfully, “I don’t know. We’ll find out probably tomorrow.” A few seconds of silence were broken by her angry statement, “That is NOT right. There should be JUSTICE FOR ALL!” She’d learned the Pledge of Allegiance in school and her innate sense of justice could perceive how very wrong it was for this baby to lose his/her life, and for the grandparents to be denied access to their daughter (had it been her ears being pierced, they’d have had to consent!).
Children that age are all about everything being FAIR. Anyone who has spent any time with them knows that. They also can see pictures of the unborn and recognize their humanity. I’m reminded of the pro-abort who had a small child with her & stopped to harrass a pro-lifer who held a fetal model. The young girl with her exclaimed, “Baby!” upon seeing it. Now, who has to distort the truth to indoctrinate the little ones? Maybe someone who tells her it’s only a baby if the mom wants it? That that baby (insert dehumanizing euphemism here) could kill her?
Jack, I get why you want to protect your children. A Child Is Born or http://www.edh.org are some great resources for beautiful pictures of whole, developing children. I wish that were taught with the “sex ed” portion in schools. My older daughter’s father wanted her dead, as did everyone around me at the time. I have made it a point to never disparage his character to her (after all, she only has one father & it’s not her fault he’s got major shortcomings). She’s arrived at her own conclusions & she knows I was pressured to abort her. It’s a difficult line to tread & I trust xalisae to know her little girl well enough to present that hard truth in a loving way.
Lastly, Lila Rose (inadvertently) saw a picture of an aborted baby when she was 9. Her question was, “Who would do that to a baby?!?” We all know where that has taken her.
Charlies Angels -
I don’t believe all the rules are evenly enforced – but Carla and the moderators generally do the best that they can. Do I wish that comments were edited instead of just deleted? Sure. But I also don’t run this site – those folks make the rules – I consider myself a guest and if I don’t like the rules and how they are enforced, I’ll leave.
I wrote of this a bit back when it was something I had to deal with:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&¬e_id=382973391486
I learned about abortion when I was 15 or 16 years old when I found an article in my mother’s Bible about abortion in Poland. It was written like a diary by a fetus who was named Barbara (like me) and the last entry was “Today my mother had me killed”. Then there was “Our Bodies, our Choice” which mentioned all kinds of liberating activities, including abortion, which don’t seem so liberating in hindsight. At age 23, I knew I was hiring a doctor to kill my baby, if I didn’t know the specifics of how it is done (barbaric).
I would agree that I got my abortion because I didn’t want to be pregnant, whether that is true for all women is another question. A Planned Parenthood supporter told me that she had never met a woman who regretted her abortion – until she met me. And I found that sad because that implies that there is a lot of hard-hearted women in America now – and a lot of unloved children because apparently mother-child love is conditional upon mothers feel on any given day.
I show the graphic images of aborted fetuses in public on occasion. I’ve been criticized by a number of people for exposing children to them. But I’ve also seen women (and men) change their minds about their abortion plans after seeing the pictures so I concluded that the act of abortion is worse than a picture of it.
I liked the video and have shard it with my two sons and daughters. Nice to see some humor and grace – we can all get so vitriolic at times.
I’m only nineteen and don’t have children myself yet, but after reading all the posts on this site I feel a lot better.
Ever since I was about four years old there’s only one way I’ve answered the question: “What do you want to be when you grow up?” That was with, “A mom.” I’ve always loved babies and children, even when I was myself a child, so when I found out about abortion I was absolutely and totally blown away. That was when I was about fourteen. My parents had never told me about it before that, and I had to find out from teachers at school (a revelation which was accompanied by a video on abortion). I’ve always gone to private, Christian schools, and my teachers were thankfully very kind and compassionate about the subject. Maybe I was just an overly sensitive kid, but I started bawling in the middle of class. The fact that such a thing as abortion could happen emotionally and mentally fried me.
When I got home that day, I’m not gonna lie- I was… incensed at my parents. To not be told about something so huge by the people who were supposed to be with you on everything? I was upset and hurt with them for a while, because they had been blatantly shielding me from everything bad for my whole life. Finding out about it second hand, especially in the “rebellious years” isn’t a good idea.
A bit of advice parents- don’t shield things, don’t hide them. You can’t protect your children for forever, and it will make them stronger if you educate them about the bad things when they know you’re there by their side- not in a classroom full of other kids who didn’t care at all about it.
Ex GOP…I hear you and I would never have even pushed the issue if not for my posts being censored under false pretenses like, no cursing and no name calling when I have (and you too) seen the troll comment as well as the dilemma over the original cartoon. Yes, I can leave, you betcha. But here’s the thing, I’m still waiting on an answer to my question of why it’s ok for myself and others expressing their disagreements and distaste for the opinions here to be called names but not vice versa. Im sure I won’t get one but as a “guest” I’d have expected at least the same treatment as everyone else. Not the case. Hence, the debate continues.
That was a good note, Paula. My birthday is January 22nd, post Roe, and for some reason Roe and abortion sit as particularly disturbing specters for me. I can’t quite put my finger on why though.
Also, thank you for the kind words, klynn.
I agree Charlies Angels – I see the “troll” comment used a lot, but a LOT of name-calling and slandering others – and it very, very rarely gets called.
It is like the death penalty I guess – always an option, rarely enforced!
In regards to this whole conversation – I wonder if folks should just have a bullet list to hit their kids with on their 12th birthday – make them sit down and watch an abortion video, a video of somebody giving birth, a circumcision video, a video on the holocaust, a video on the crusades, the autrocities in Sudan, pictures of the guy who was electrocuted and had flames shoot out his head…I mean, the list could go on. It could be called “the birthday of shock” – a right of passage of making sure kids fully understand the world!
I knew that abortion was the murder of innocent babies by the age of seven. I’m not entirely sure how I worked out that’s what abortion is but I remember driving past an abortion mill when I was quite young and my mother saying “they do abortions there.” I wasn’t told any graphic details or shown any pictures or anything. I don’t think that there is a specific age when children should be told that kind of thing, it really depends on the maturity of the child.
CA,
Good grief. What are you 11 years old?
Here is the definition of the word troll
Troll (Internet)
The “trollface” sometimes used to indicate trolling.[1]
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory[citation needed], extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: “That was an excellent troll you posted”. While the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling describing intentionally provocative actions outside of an online context. For example, mass media uses troll to describe “a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families.”[4][5]
Carla – if you truly believe that the world troll is used in a non-inflammatory way, well, there’s no more defense needed.
I suppose I’ve never seen it used on this board in a way except to shut down somebody opinion or belittle them. Have I missed some uses of it?
When those that are proabortion come here to incite and have no interest in an actual dialogue and just want to derail threads they are considered trolls. They troll prolife sites. Some are only here to see how far they can go before they get banned.
I used to comment on RH Reality Check. My voice was quickly shouted down and soon after I was simply deleted. How is that for OPEN, HONEST discussion. Many of us have had the same experience at proabortion sites.
You would have to agree that this site is more than fair if one can type like an adult. It seems simple enough to jump on a thread and add ones own opinion without attacking others. State what you believe and be ready, willing and able to defend your position minus the swearing and name calling.
Lucky for you that you do not have to read some of the vile posts that mods read and delete.
Carla, absolutely no one is pro-abortion, you can either be pro-choice (being a parent, giving baby up for adoption, or having an abortion) or you can be anti-choice, which is no-choice at all, you will have that baby, doesn’t matter if you are 12 and carrying your sibling, or raped, or if you have a heart condition which pregnancy may worsen and kill you, or if your much wanted child has no brain and won’t survive outside the womb, you WILL have that baby.
A forced abortion, like what is happening in China, is just as bad as a forced birth.
Charlies Angels: “Faux News”
Y’know, I’ve never understood. Those who despise Fox — generally folks on the left — must watch it a LOT. They’d have to, if their opinions about it are to be accepted as credible. Surely these folks don’t just gratuitously slander. Right?
Meanwhile, I’m pretty conservative and I never watch it (goes with the territory of watching little TV in general). I read libertarian blogs, some tea party stuff, and imbibe NPR (for over 30 years now) and HuffPo.
At HuffPo I see the same thing — raging libs flailing about and gnashing their teeth about Fox, Rush, and other of their tormentors.
Good grief. Is it some kind of self-loathing that impels liberals to send Fox ratings soaring? “I must punish myself by watching stuff I abhor!”
Meanwhile, I like NPR news and features (the local station in Chicago carries less good local programming than it used to, alas). No punishment.
Fox! Rush! Koch! Rove! Bush! Cheney!
I’ve never quite known what to make of demon possession or claims of it, but far more astonishing and less understandable still are people who seem possessed by the above folk, and generally froth at the mouth at mention of their name.
If you are prochoice on abortion you are proabortion.
Own it.
ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is proabortion? Really?
I know several that absolutely know that an innocent human being is brutally killed in abortion and are fine with that. They promote it, they give to PP, the nation’s largest abortion business, they work in the industry, they convince others that abortion is the best choice. Proabortion.
xalisae and Jack,
My oldest learned about abortion from his dad. After we separated and then divorced, his father told him I never wanted him and that he had to talk me out of having him aborted.
Our oldest was quite angry after the divorce and his dad pulled out all the stops in attempts to turn him against me. When our son was upset with me he would say things like, “you never wanted me” or “you wanted to abort me”. I told my son this was not true and reassured him how much I loved him.
I wanted to protect my son’s feelings and kept the truth from him until he was about 12 or 13. After yet another fight where I was accused of wanting to abort him because “dad told me!”, I sat him down and told him the truth of who pressured who to abort.
I think on some level he already knew this and was feeling me out. There are no easy ways to handle situations like this and I still second guess myself if I handled it correctly. On the positive side, our son is an outspoken pro-lifer.
Abortion is heartbreaking on so many levels. ):
Technically speaking Carla, I would disagree with that statement.
I believe the supreme court was right in the Fred Phelps case and his right to free speech. That does not make me (or anyone else that believes that case was right) pro-Phelps.
A pro-choice person can believe the choice is allowable under the laws of this country, and believe people should have the choice, but not be in favor of it.
I think it is a cute saying that a lot of pro-lifers have about pro-choices to make themselves feel better about themselves, but if you are truly being honest about the situation, it is more complex than the little boxes you want to put people in.
Carla, I trust women to make their own decisions, as you did. Own YOUR decision. I own mine, I have interviewed with regional, national and international media, I told everyone of them I had an abortion. You do the same, and don’t blame it on PP or some other abortion clinic, you made the choice to have an abortion, no one chained you to the table.
Disagree all you would like.
Oh, I know it’s all about “choice” right? ”A woman’s right to choose!!” (to do what?)
I don’t need to play little word games and fiddle with semantics to feel better about myself.
Whatever Tiff.
I was lied to by omission and coerced into an abortion I didn’t want.
Oh, I do own it. I do live with it.
My daughter died just as your child did. The difference being that I deeply regret that I was EVER even near that mill that day while you are here to justify the death of your child.
Go you.
“Whatever”?
My 8-yr-old could come up with a better response.
And I’m Tiffany to you, not Tiff, unless you want me to call you Car.
Carla – but I believe you are fiddling with semantics and playing with word games to feel better about yourself.
Did you agree with the supreme court ruling on Phelps?
If so, does that make you pro-Fred Phelps?
I think the same logic applies here – a person can believe that a woman has the right to choose, but not be “pro-abortion”.
I consider myself pro-life, but would never call somebody who’s pro-choice to be “pro-abortion” – I’ve never met somebody who advocates purposefully getting pregnant just so that they could have an abortion.
I don’t give a flying fig about Phelps.
Prochoice is the euphemism for ABORTION. If you believe that every woman has a right to an ABORTION and you believe that ABORTION is a wonderful alternative to having a baby you are PROABORTION.
Disagree with me? Alrighty then.
Carla – I find your statement to be completely illogical, void of reason, and full of loaded language…so yes, I will agree to disagree with you on this one.
Tiffany,
If I thought you were really interested in my story, which you aren’t, I might want to continue discussing my abortion with you.
Sadly. I’m not.
I have read all of your stuff. I have watched your videos. Yeah. You continue justifying the death of your child by abortion and I will continue telling others that women deserve better than abortion.
Good night all.
Justify the death of my son? I had an abortion to save a child, you had one because you were scared. I think the most justified death would be my angel, his death gave his brother LIFE. And his death wasn’t brutal as you say, the top 5 prenatal neotalogists in the country used a laser to cut off Brendan’s (my angel) umbilical cord, he passed away peacefully. As you can see, I called my angel by name, not fetus, I have always referred to them as babies in every interview. I’m not heartless.
How you were lied to?
How were you coerced?
I don’t want you to feel bad about YOUR decision, you seem to be doing a good job at that yourself. I would like you to feel peace, as I do. In order to feel peace, one must admit they made the best decision for them at the time.
Women deserve better than abortion? Well, Carla, I will bring my beautiful child to you, and you can look him in the eye and tell him that he deserves to be dead. What time and date works for you?
Pro-choice is a meaningless statement. Choice does not exist in some kind of nebulous, undefined vacuum. You have to be pro-something. If you were talking to someone completely unfamiliar with the abortion debate and told them you were pro-choice, their first reaction would be to ask you what choice you’re talking about, at which point you would say ‘abortion’. So why not just say ‘pro-abortion’ from the beginning? That’s precisely what one would be.
The thing I’ve always found funny is that I’ve yet to see any pro-lifer take offense at being called “anti-choice” or even “anti-abortion”, but the second you call a pro-choicer “anti-life” or “pro-abortion”, well… Then you’re just being silly. Someone is going to have to explain to me how that works.
Carla…Don’t let them disparage you. If you support the “option” of abortion being legal, you are “pro-abortion”. The pro-life/pro-choice stance wouldn’t differ at all if it weren’t for the “option” of abortion, and they should be truthful and own it. Are they pro-legalized-abortion? Then OWN it, because we’re not.
Carla…you acknowledge what you’ve done. You give me a tiny glimpse of hope for so many post-abortive women that I’ve talked to that seem so proud of themselves, so remorseless…so cold-hearted towards their very own children…You give me hope.
Tiff has said about her living twin, “It’s like he made a pact with his twin brother to live passionately, to live for both of them in honor of the spirit of his fallen brother.”
Prolifers will make abortion illegal and jail abortionists to honor the spirits of all of our brothers and sisters who were murdered in abortion.
Tiff, you have no proof that one or both twins would have died. When your son is old enough, he will realize this as well.
Car, feel free to call me Prax anytime (: Peace Sister!
So Tiffany said that if she didn’t have an abortion both of her twins would have died. Aside from me not being able to find anything online which shows that selective termination is standard treatment for TTTS, I did happen upon this which gives the standard treatment and probabilities of either one, both or none of the twins surviving (http://www.umm.edu/ttts/which_therapy.htm).
Could you explain to me why you had to have an abortion?
“If you were talking to someone completely unfamiliar with the abortion debate and told them you were pro-choice, their first reaction would be to ask you what choice you’re talking about, at which point you would say ‘abortion’.” – no I wouldn’t. I’d explain that if some women have an unplanned pregnancy then they have a choice of continuing to birth and keeping the child, continuing to birth and adopting the child out, or terminating the pregnancy via abortion. Hence, offering all the available options is what makes someone pro-choice.
Some of you use the term ‘pro-aborts’ (self-evidently derogatory) in an attempt to paint pro-choicers as being all about the act of abortion and nothing else. Almost as if we believe it should be mandatory in all cases. This paints a false picture. We aren’t, we simply want women to be able to choose from all the available options.
@Praxedes, I am so sorry that your ex would treat you and your child like that. I am glad that your son has at least one parent who puts his needs first before their own selfish desires.
To y’all who are arguing about what to call each side of the debate, why can’t we just call each other what we prefer? If you don’t call me “anti-choice”, “forced birther”, or “anti-women”, I won’t call you “pro-abortion”, “anti-life”, or “baby-killer” if you find it offensive. I think all this arguing about what to call each other takes away from productive debate.
No I wouldn’t. I’d explain that if some women have an unplanned pregnancy then they have a choice of continuing to birth and keeping the child, continuing to birth and adopting the child out, or terminating the pregnancy via abortion. Hence, offering all the available options is what makes someone pro-choice.
You mean that pro-lifers have a problem with the woman keeping the baby or giving it up for adoption? That’s a rhetorical question, of course, because we do not. Let’s cut to the chase. It matters not what way you try to dress it up. The simple fact of the matter is that of those three “choices”, there is only disagreement on one issue– abortion. The terms “anti-abortion” and “pro-abortion” are perfectly apt titles, since it gets down to the nitty gritty of the debate. You think it should be allowed as a viable option and we do not.
Some of you use the term ‘pro-aborts’ (self-evidently derogatory) in an attempt to paint pro-choicers as being all about the act of abortion and nothing else.
Or, I call you “pro-abortion” since I, myself, and labeled as “anti-abortion”. Fair is fair, is it not?
Almost as if we believe it should be mandatory in all cases.
So you mean all those pro-gay marriage people believe that gay marriages should be mandatory for everyone/in all cases?
This paints a false picture. We aren’t, we simply want women to be able to choose from all the available options.
You want women to be able to choose abortion. That is what separates you from pro-lifers, who are affectionately referred to by the media as anti-abortion. I don’t know why you have such a problem acknowledging this fact and calling it what it is.
(I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how I can be anti-abortion but a pro-choicer can’t be pro-abortion.)
I thought Tiffany said she had the umbilical ligation, not selective termination?
http://www.jillstanek.com/2010/03/planned-parenthoods-desperate-lie-pathetic-video-stupak-amendment-would-end-private-insurance-coverage-for-abortion/#more-2557
Jack,
That is the video Jill posted awhile ago. Tiff’s video.
I love you, Xalisae and Prax!!
Love,
Car
Reality:
I’d explain that if some women have an unplanned pregnancy then they have a choice of continuing to birth and keeping the child, continuing to birth and adopting the child out, or terminating the pregnancy via abortion. Hence, offering all the available options is what makes someone pro-choice.
Then you’d be wrong. EVERY woman who is pregnant gives birth. EVERY pregnancy ends in birth, there is no preventing birth. You either birth a live baby, or a dead one, either through that baby’s natural death or willfully killing that baby through abortion. Be honest for once, Reality.
Thank you Carla. The link that Some Guy posted also had other options for TTTS that isn’t even mentioned in that video. Kinda sneaky if you ask me.
Again with the rare cases. I acknowledge such cases do happen, but it’s a red herring argument in favor of abortion, these cases only compose of less than 3% of abortions per a year, the majority of abortions are elective on healthy women and fetuses, stop hidiing behind the rare cases and just be honest if you want abortion on demand without apology for any reason. Also, women deserve to be given quality medical care and more options for medical and emotional care than just abortion in the hard cases (i.e. prenatal hospice, early delivery via c-section, etc) and in fact women do receive a lot of pressure and are given worse-case scenarios and limited options in medical cases of fetal or maternal health. Rather than abandoning these women to despair and hopelessness and the feeling they have no choice but to have an abortion, instead let’s give them a support system, medical resources, and options. The medical community could come a long way. And be aware that there are women who do <i>choose</i> to carry to term when faced with a poor prenatal diagnosis
http://benotafraid.net
http://www.prenatalpartnersforlife.org/Stories/StoriesIndex.htm
http://www.anencephalie-info.org/e/stories.php
http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/
http://www.livingwithtrisomy.org/
http://www.tttsfoundation.org/index.php
http://www.preeclampsia.org/
http://www.pregnantwithcancer.org/
and their decision was no less respectable than yours (check your attitude, your tone is self-rightous, condescending and implies disdain towards those who would choose differently and choose to carry to term in an adverse prenatal case.)
It’s really not hard, but here you go, http://www.fetalhope.org/patients-families/condition?cid=168&p=1
Look at #5 under treatment.
At the time I didn’t consider it an abortion, but according to the last 2 abortion bans in SD, it was an abortion. Selective termination, selective reduction, Umbilical Cord Occlusion, or RFA (RadioFrequency Ablation, as my expert doctors called it) were all considered an abortion under the SD abortion bans.
Prax, you wouldn’t be implying that I aborted one twin because I didn’t want both, would you?
I love how you guys love to attempt play doctor online and say I didn’t need to abort one in order to save the other. What medical school did you attend?
I went to The Fetal Care Center of Cincinnati, one of the most premier centers in the country.
http://www.fetalcarecenter.org/conditions/ttts/default.htm
If you look under treatment options you’ll see this one,
Fetoscopic Cord Coagulation, again, another name for an abortion, according to the SD abortion bans. That was the only option available to me based on the severity of our case.
Yeah, Reality you might be the only one to explain it like that, NOT ONE of the pro-“choice”ers I met, and then hung out with mentioned current pregnancy, or ending a current pregnancy, even ONCE when they “educated” me on the “choice” issue. It was all about ME. MY body. MY choice. ME not being FORCED to have a baby. All that implied to me was that the government couldn’t smash in my door, kidnap me, tie me to a table, forcefully IVF me, then keep me tied to that table until birth. THAT was the scenario they described with their word games and catch phrases and scare tactics (the same language and phrases still being trumpeted by pro-aborts today) and THAT was the scenario I disagreed with.
I ignorantly trumpeted their mindless horn until the day a pro-lifer asked me how I could agree with ABORTION. I, unlike many here and elsewhere, ASKED QUESTIONS AND LISTENED TO THE ANSWERS. I then went and researched and fact checked for myself. It was blindingly obvious who was telling the FULL TRUTH then. “Choice” had EVERYTHING to do with the ability to KILL a living human child inutero and NOTHING to do with their word games and obfuscations. IT WAS ALL ABOUT ABORTION, ENCOURAGING ABORTION AS A “CHOICE”, SUPPORTING ABORTION “RIGHTS”, AND ENSURING ACCESS TO ABORTION.
The “choice” crowd lies. They do nothing to promote or encourage birth or adoption, EVERYTHING they do, say, support, and vote for is “ABORTION rights”. They seek to shut down CPC’S which support and encourage birth, parenthood, and adoption. How are they pro-“choice” when they are so obviously and vehemently ANTI-choice with their attacks and language when it comes to choosing LIFE??? Please. You’re (pro-aborts in general) spots are obvious.
Some guy,
The link you posted does have the treatment option I chose, it’s called Umbilical cord ligation. The word abortion was never mentioned, it wasn’t until I read the language of RF 6 and IM 11 that I realized it was considered an abortion. You can thank the “pro-lifers” in SD and DC that helped write those laws for keeping abortion legal in SD, if it wasn’t for them forgetting about cases like mine, they probably would have won.
Tiffany,
I can’t imagine losing one of my children, before birth or after. I am really sorry that you went through that. I am not a doctor at all, and don’t know what your case was like.
The problem is that you advocate for legalized elective abortion based on your tragedy. Elective abortion makes up the vast majority of abortions performed. I have no doubt you grieve for your son, but you advocate for the right for other women to end their children’s lives for reasons that have nothing to do with medical problems. That I don’t get.
I think of them as abortion tolerators. Since I bet most of them wouldn’t tolerate littering, I’d also say their priorities are way out of whack.
HAJ
xalisae says:
July 11, 2011 at 12:20 am
Um, Xalisae, I’m not disagreeing with you, but I haven’t given birth to 4 of my seven children. They died early and were reabsorbed, the remaining tissues were either surgically removed or “delivered” naturally. Believe me, I looked for the two I miscarried naturally (one at 13wks and the other at 4wks) and the pathology reports from the surgeries (10wks and 6wks) said “no fetal tissue present”.
I would say EVERY pregnancy involves a baby and that BABY either lives or dies. I would hate to be responsible for my child’s death, no matter how it occurs. I can’t imagine “choosing” that. :,( How heartbreaking, and even more heartbreaking that so many seem to believe they don’t regret it. An abortion doesn’t make you unpregnant it makes you the mother of a dead baby :(
Prax, you wouldn’t be implying that I aborted one twin because I didn’t want both, would you?
You wouldn’t be implying that someone should be killed based on what his mother wants, would you?
Let me repeat myself verbatim: you have no proof that one or both twins would have died. When your son is old enough, he will realize this as well.
Read into it what you will. I’m really surprised you question me. After all, you have that wonderful intuition, doncha?
Jack,
I would be a hypocrite if I told other women that I deserved an abortion, but they didn’t.
The authors of the SD abortion bans didn’t know about cases like mine, which goes to show how little they know about high risk pregnancies and medicine in general. Therefore, they shouldn’t be legislating medical decisions. Abortion isn’t black and white, there is an awful a lot of gray in there.
I come on this pro-life site to answer the question asked, yet you guys question my decision to let one very sick twin go so the other may live, when you weren’t in the room when our diagnosis and treatment option were proposed. But 5 of the top perinatalogists in the country were in the room, and I trust them over you guys any day of the week.
The reason you guys love to attack me and my decision is because it makes you re-think your pro-life decision. Like I said previously, abortion is not black and white, there is a lot of gray.
Prax,
I have proof, it’s in my medical records.
“I would be a hypocrite if I told other women that I deserved an abortion, but they didn’t.”
No, you wouldn’t. You had an extremely rare condition where you made an horribly difficult decision about children you wanted. There is nothing inconsistent in you agreeing with abortion for medical reasons while disagreeing with women who abort for monetary, convenience, or the other 97% of abortions that have nothing to do with medical reasons. Rare cases don’t make elective abortion legitimate.
“The reason you guys love to attack me and my decision is because it makes you re-think your pro-life decision. Like I said previously, abortion is not black and white, there is a lot of gray.”
No, you don’t make me rethink my pro-life position. And I am not attacking you, just disagreeing with your advocacy of keeping elective abortions legal. You did post on a pro-life site, I don’t know why you expected people not to argue with you.
“You mean that pro-lifers have a problem with the woman keeping the baby or giving it up for adoption” not at all Some Guy, not at all.
“You think it should be allowed as a viable option and we do not” – correct.
“(I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how I can be anti-abortion but a pro-choicer can’t be pro-abortion.” –
you are pro keeping the baby after pregnancy, you are pro having it adopted out, you are against abortion – therefore you are anti-abortion, it’s the only option you are against
we are pro keeping the baby after pregnancy, we are pro having it adopted out and we are pro having the pregnancy terminated – we are pro-choice, we are not against any of the options
you do not allow all the choices, we do. Therefore we are pro-choice and you are not.
If you wish to refer to an abortion as a dead birth xalisae, go right ahead. It doesn’t change the outcome of the three options I spoke of.
“Be honest for once, Reality” – now about those autobiographies.
Jack, there is a BIG difference between disagreeing with me and telling me I didn’t need to have an abortion. The pro-life side in SD tried to say that during many media interviews and it back fired on them. We won by 10 pts.
Tiffany, I try not to get to involved with medical issues arguments, because I really don’t know enough about it. I will however, argue until I am blue in the face against elective abortion. I disagree with your decision to use your tragedy as some kind of rallying point for pro-choicers. I will never be able to understand how anyone can grieve for a child while advocating that others should be able to kill theirs for no medical reason at all. I think that is just flat out wrong.
Jack,
You can think I’m wrong and I can think you’re wrong. We’ll agree to disagree. Thank you for a polite conversation.
Another statement made by Tiff elsewhere, “Our decision was predicated on consultation with experts in the field of fetal medicine, our personal beliefs, prayer and my intuition.”
And here Tiffany states she has proof in her medical records that one or both twins would have died if she chose not to abort. There is no way she can prove this. She chose to abort based on consultation with experts and based on her personal beliefs and intuition. Consultations, beliefs and intuition do not PROVE anything. Her own statements prove she is not honest. She did not NEED an abortion. She WANTED an abortion.
The fact is Tiffany aborted one twin with the hopes that the other twin would be born healthier as a result. We all want healthy babies. We just aren’t all willing to sacrifice someone else’s life for their health.
Oh, experts recommended I abort one of my children too Tiff for my own health. I disagreed with them. That child is now a beautiful 14 year old.
BTW, just to clearify, I was responding to by Tiffany Campbell’s Jul 10, 10:50 pm post.
“The reason you guys love to attack me and my decision is because it makes you re-think your pro-life decision. Like I said previously, abortion is not black and white, there is a lot of gray.”
Again, read into it what you will. The fact is some mothers would never pay someone to kill their child regardless of the circumstances. Abortion, like murder and rape, is black and white.
We won by 10 pts.
Yeah, and because abortion is legal, it must also be moral.
It’s all about winning to some people.
I have a renewed vow to help women in need that may be carrying a child that is not compatible with life…It Seems like “your GOD” in here has ZERO compasssion. This sounds sick (but I am talking to Sick people here) I hope that each and everyone of you have to be in the sitiuation that many of us have been-or have a loved one that really reealy want to carry their baby to term-yet he/she has no chance at life…..walk in our shoes and talk the talk. and may you also have a life threatening condition that may kill you if you if you carry the child to term…which would have been a chance I would have taken for a healthy child….Thanks for firing me up today with this STUPID QUESTION! Children dont have sex-ed until 6th grade…telling a kindergartener about abortion is JUST ASSANINE! Your agenda is getting in the way of good parenting.
folsum, have you been drinking?
you are pro keeping the baby after pregnancy, you are pro having it adopted out, you are against abortion – therefore you are anti-abortion, it’s the only option you are against we are pro keeping the baby after pregnancy, we are pro having it adopted out and we are pro having the pregnancy terminated – we are pro-choice, we are not against any of the options. you do not allow all the choices, we do. Therefore we are pro-choice and you are not.
Say what? If I can be defined by what I wouldn’t allow that you would allow, then you can be defined by what you would allow that I wouldn’t. Again, fair is fair. It seems disingenuous to define me as anti something yet not define you as pro that thing, instead choosing to define yourself as pro-choice (which is meaningless without context).
Anyway, it seems that your argument is that when given two positions, the position which allows a greater range of “freedom” is, by default, pro-choice, while the other is anti- some freedom granted by the pro-choice position. Would that mean that those who argued that slavery should be kept legal were also pro-choice (either choose to own one or don’t choose to own one)? Or better yet, wouldn’t that also make the person who thinks that a man should have the option to beat his wife pro-choice (either choose to beat her or don’t choose to beat her)?
Of course, you’ll quickly point out that those are ‘invalid’ choices, but then that leads to the question of who gets to decide what a ‘valid’ or ‘invalid’ choice is.
(Sure, I’m being a little facetious, but it’s funny to think about all the nifty things ‘pro-choice’ could be applied to.)
Some Guy and X – the moment has largely passed – conversation has gone on all through the night – but my only point on the name was exactly what I said on the Phelps case – you can believe that there is a legal right to something without necessarily being for it. I’m guessing you two aren’t into hard core porn, but probably agree to first amendment protections for it.
Some Guy – also, you talk about the various labels and pro-lifers never minding…I’ve called some pro lifers “pro-birth” before…and got a very negative reaction.
Hi Tiffany,
Jack stated this so wonderfully and I want to know if you could speak to this.
The problem is that you advocate for legalized elective abortion based on your tragedy. Elective abortion makes up the vast majority of abortions performed. I have no doubt you grieve for your son, but you advocate for the right for other women to end their children’s lives for reasons that have nothing to do with medical problems. That I don’t get.
Hi folsom,
I have walked with two precious friends who were pregnant. One child had anencephaly and one had Potter’s Syndrome. Both children were to die shortly after they were born. The parents decided NOT to kill their children before they died naturally. One little girl lived for an hour after delivery and died peacefully surrounded by those that loved her. The other little girl lived for 20 minutes and passed in mommy’s arms.
For you to come here and WISH these situations on us is sick. Indeed.
http://benotafraid.net
Xalisae,
Thank you.
There is hope and healing after abortion. I became a Rachel’s Vineyard facilitator last year and am planning my first weekend retreat. Women who have been hurt by abortion can be free. They can find peace and find their voice to speak out against the lies that abortion helps, heals, saves or empowers women.
Now that you are in my state you can look me up here. :)
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
These “pro-lifers” are not worth wasting your words on. They are closed minded people who feel they have the right to judge when they have not walked in another person’s shoes. They claim to be good Christians, but they stand on their soap boxes and judge instead of supporting their fellow human beings who have been through a crisis and made a choice that was their own and that they will live with. They make assumptions as to why others make the choices they make. They are ignorant.
You seem to have a lot of words to waste, notworthit.
Gah! Semantics. I don’t see much difference between “being pro-abortion,” or having no problem with people choosing to kill unborn children and opposing those who do have a problem with that kind of killing.
Notworthit: Interesting that you’re willing to make snap judgments about the worth of pro-life folk here — not all of whom are Christians, and several of whom have, indeed, walked in the shoes of women in crisis pregnancies. Your assumptions reveal ignorance.
Look under your feet. Does the box say “soap” on it?
Carla: Having a nick of “notworthit” doesn’t suggest any judgmentalism, does it? ;-)
An interesting implication of notworthit’s judgment that pro-lifers here are not worth wasting words on, would be that any pro-choicers conversing with them are exercising poor judgment about the value of their conversations with such worthless interlocutors. If notworthit is right, in other words, very many pro-choicers in these parts are poor judges of a thing’s value. If that may be generally true of them, then it’s certainly possible that it’s as well specifically true in the case of their estimate of the value of unborn life. They just don’t know the worth of a thing.
Thanks for the support, notworthit!
;-)
It’s amazing how people can twist things to suit their cause. Kudos. And no judgement is being passed here. To each their own. I support killing and you don’t. It’s nice to have a choice, isn’t it? I am simply supporting the people with whom I agree. Just because I don’t think the issue worth a constant battle on an internet site, doesn’t mean I am judging. I am simply stating that it’s not worth fighting. Nobody on either side of this issue is going to agree. I have, however, seen opinions change very quickly when a person receives a ppd themselves. It happens more often than you think.
folsom – glad to see that you would not agree that sexual information would be good to give very young children (say less than 6th grade?). Then you should fight against Planned Parenthood, who is rolling out information on sexual pleasure/information to children as young as 5. Of course, their teaching would have no moral teaching in it (no good moral teaching, that is), since they like having people be sexually active young – they make money on every step.
Please see the information they tried to hand out at the UN, and other initiatives to sexually activate our young. They are in our schools. If you do not want the largest abortion-provider in the U.S. to teach our youngest children about sex, then get out there and help stop them.
Notworthit and Folsom,
Did you completely miss my post, the part of my post where I said: “Also, women deserve to be given quality medical care and more options for medical and emotional care than just abortion in the hard cases (i.e. prenatal hospice, early delivery via c-section, etc) and in fact women do receive a lot of pressure and are given worse-case scenarios and limited options in medical cases of fetal or maternal health. Rather than abandoning these women to despair and hopelessness and the feeling they have no choice but to have an abortion, instead let’s give them a support system, medical resources, and options. The medical community could come a long way. And be aware that there are women who do choose to carry to term when faced with a poor prenatal diagnosis” (and I then list a bunch of resources for these women, some which are pro-life, some are Christian). Why, pro-lifers are the movement behind creating support services for women when faced with poor prenatal diagnosis. So why then do you assume that and generalize that we judge or do not care about these women, when in fact there are pro-lifers who do (myself being one of them).
I’m going to shameless make a plug to my blog here, where I created a list of resources for those facing a poor or adverse prenatal diagnosis:
http://mylifeinreflection.blogspot.com/2005/12/adverse-prenatal-diagnosis-maternal.html
Notworthit says:
July 11, 2011 at 10:24 am
I support killing and you don’t.
Wow. Just…wow.
Women get abortions because …. *drum roll* .. THEY DON’T WANT TO BE PREGNANT!!!!!!
Seriously, a 7th grader could figure that one out.
I’m sure 7th graders could also figure out that they might get pregnant if they have sex and if they don’t want to be pregnant…..come on now….I know you can do this one.
As someone above said, your situation is very rare in the scheme of all pregnancies. I don’t know enough about it, but I do believe steps can be taken to save a mother’s life even if those steps will result in the death of the fetus. Perhaps protection of the life of a twin could be treated under the same rubric. Either way, I wonder that you take the incredibly tragic loss of one of your babies (since you admit they were babies) and use it to advocate for the destruction of millions of children who pose no risk whatsoever to the mother or another human life.
As far as the pro-choice/pro-abortion issue, I think there are a lot of people who think they are just pro-choice, but really they think abortion is good in a least some circumstance. Let’s look at the right to free speech everyone likes to compare this to. I am in favor of free speech. I think it’s a good. I may not like the way that right is exercised in every situation, but I would still say I am pro-free speech. If I didn’t think there was any circumstance in which free speech was good, I would go around fighting for people’s right to speak freely. And I wouldn’t say I am pro-choice on people’s right to speak, but I am NOT pro-speech – I think speech is terrible, but I respect people’s right to do it. Yet that is what people claim when they say, “GAH, I am NOT pro-abortion, just pro-choice.” Do you stand by that? You don’t think abortion is good in any circumstance, but you support people’s right to choose something that is never good? I think people are pro-abortion and pro-abortion in some circumstances (maybe even very few), but no one is really pro-choice but anti-abortion. It’s just not reality. I am also always very curious about people who fight so hard for a right to do something that makes them froth at the mouth to be in any way associated with.
Notworthit says:
July 11, 2011 at 10:24 am
I support killing and you don’t.
For example – I would say this pretty much destroys the argument that ‘no one is pro-abortion.’ No one I tell you.
Children dont have sex-ed until 6th grade…telling a kindergartener about abortion is JUST ASSANINE!
First of all, it’s “asinine.”
Secondly, why the big deal? If abortion is just a simple procedure akin to, say, having one’s appendix removed, then I really don’t get why anyone should have such a hard time with kids knowing about it or seeing the so-called “fake pictures” of abortion. If they’re fake and abortions “don’t look like that,” and if abortion doesn’t actually take the life of another human being, I don’t understand the outrage.
Let me get this straight, I should have kept my mouth shut, knowing that the law up for a vote wouldn’t have allowed me to save one of my babies? I couldn’t do that, what about the women and families who may also have to make that decision in the future, but can’t therefore they lose both?
Have everyone of you heard of SIDS? Well TTTS kills more babies every year than SIDS, so it’s not rare.
If a woman wants to gamble with their babies lives and choose not to selectively terminate, that’s her choice. It has happened, a woman in my town went to the same Fetal Care Center I did, was given the same treatment option, chose not to do it, both her babies died. It happens, and it’s sad, but that was their choice.
If a woman chooses to carry a baby to term knowing it will die shortly thereafter, again, that’s her choice. I don’t disagree with them, they made the best choice for them.
Having choices is good.
It’s when legislators make medical decisions for others whom they have never met that is wrong.
Tiffany,
I didn’t say you should have kept your mouth shut. I’m asking why you use your situation (which I don’t know enough about to comment on) to advocate for the choice to kill babies who pose no risk to the life of their mother or other human lives. You extrapolate your relatively rare (relatively compared to all pregnancies and all abortion situations) to advocate for the choice to abortion on demand. You then further say that you are not pro-abortion (though you clearly think abortion is sometimes good, at least in some situations like your own) and go on to claim that indeed NO ONE is pro-abortion.
That is the question we would all like an answer to, Tiffany.
Why do you advocate abortion for healthy babies and healthy moms based on your abortion for TTTS?
97% of abortions are elective. For any and all reasons you advocate and promote abortion based upon your experience of aborting for TTTS.
Car, I already addressed that. I wouldn’t have lent my story to the fight had the bills made an exception for cases like mine. But they didn’t, which shows how little they know about medicine and therefore shouldn’t be legislating medical decisions that will have zero impact on them.
You wrote,
“ You continue justifying the death of your child by abortion and I will continue telling others that women deserve better than abortion.”
So back to my question for you, when are you available to look my four-yr-old in the eyes and tell him he deserves to be dead because you think the very abortion that saved his life is wrong? You say women deserve better than abortion, I say women are smart enough to make their own decisions. You can tell him that you don’t think his mommy, daddy and the top 5 perinatalogists at the Fetal Care Center made the right decision. Tell him his life wasn’t worth saving, because he had to let his very ill brother go in order to save him.
Notworthit: “…no judgement is being passed here.”
Really?
“These ‘pro-lifers’ are not worth wasting your words on.”
That’s a judgment of value. You’re claiming that pro-lifers have diminished worth on some scale or other. Doesn’t matter what your rubric is, your grammar and syntax don’t need to be “twisted” in the least to be understood properly as a judgment.
“They are closed minded people…”
Not a judgment? It’s the most common and bigoted form of judgment possible — a generalization. You’re not in the least discriminating between various actual persons here with your generalization. You’re applying it in full ignorance of what distinguishes participants from each other — and from your judgment. Acquaintance with actual persons present would allow you to speak specifically to various things you might find objectionable. But lacking such acquaintance, the best you can do is ignorantly generalize.
To be fair, we all think in generalizations. They derive as syntheses FROM data. But when applying generalizations as templates ONTO reality, you need to adjust generalizations to account for varying particulars in the world itself. It’s ironic, then, that you fault pro-lifers for not walking in individuals’ shoes in the very act of not being willing to get into particulars with individual pro-lifers yourself. It’s lazy thinking to stick with mere generalizations, and anyone at all rational (actually, anyone who hasn’t isolated their rationality from an empirical sensibility) will pwn you on it every time — rightly so.
“They claim to be good Christians…”
Please quote a single person in this forum who has claimed to be a good Christian. Quote the claim.
Can’t do it? So you’re not only judging, but lying. You don’t KNOW whether they’ve made any such claims, yet you’re willing to assert that they have. That’s neither empirical, rational, nor honest.
Wow.
“They stand on their soap boxes and judge…”
More generalizations.
“[They are not] supporting their fellow human beings who have been through a crisis and made a choice that was their own and that they will live with.”
What a ridiculous, lying, ignorant generalization. It’s obvious that you’re only thinking of one of the two possible outcomes of the choice in question. You don’t consider how any present who work in crisis pregnancy centers have worked tirelessly in support of women who have chosen life. You’re only thinking about those who’ve aborted. So much for whether your judgment is fair and balanced. In your support of abortion rights you can’t control your thinking enough to recognize your own bias in print before clicking “submit.”
But it goes further than that, because you’re entirely unaware of how many pro-life women (and men) in this forum have supported those who have chosen abortion. Not supported DOING so, mind you — but supported them as persons despite believing firmly that they made a terrible choice.
“They make assumptions as to why others make the choices they make.”
Another generalization. You do understand, don’t you, that a pronoun “they,” following by an unqualified predication, is a generalization?
You’re speaking out of complete ignorance of individual persons here, yet you conclude with the generalized judgment, “They are ignorant.”
By the way, I’ve only made two or three judgments of you in the above remarks, and in each case they’re at least somewhat warranted inferences. The rest is mere accurate description of your remarks. Note that I’m not generalizing about pro-choicers while ignorant of how they vary from one another — I’m singling out your remarks and addressing them specifically.
Returning to the first quote I included from you in opening this post: “Just because I don’t think the issue worth a constant battle on an internet site, doesn’t mean I am judging.”
You didn’t claim that the “issue” (which is an impersonal abstraction) wasn’t worth a constant battle on the Internet. You claimed that “‘pro-lifers’ (who are sapient persons) are not worth wasting your words on.”
Which kind of reflects your own words back onto you: “It’s amazing how people can twist things to suit their cause.”
Kudos.
“Car, I already addressed that. I wouldn’t have lent my story to the fight had the bills made an exception for cases like mine. But they didn’t, which shows how little they know about medicine and therefore shouldn’t be legislating medical decisions that will have zero impact on them. ”
So, could you get behind an abortion ban that had exemptions for the health of the mother or situations such as the one who faced? That position seems to me to be more consistent then advocating for elective abortions.
Hey Tiff,
WHY do you advocate for and promote abortions for the 97% of them that are done on healthy mothers and healthy babies?? WHY? Why do you exploit your case for those women who have abortions for any reason?
Killing our own is not the best we can do for women.
HE did not let his very ill brother go. You did.
From every piece of legislation attempting to ban abortion that I have read, they never add exceptions for fatal fetal anomalies, and the language for life or health of the mother is so vague that a woman would have to be minutes away from death in order to receive an abortion. The rape and incest exceptions tend to have hoops for women to jump through in order to qualify for an abortion. If the top pro-life doctors, lawyers and legislators in the country can’t write a solid piece of legislation that covers all of those cases, they will never win.
The 06 SD abortion ban didn’t have exceptions for rape and incest, some people believe that is why it failed. So the pro-lifers added an exception for rape and incest in the 08 ban, but that turned off the true pro-lifers and SD Right to Life didn’t even endorse the ban because it had the exception. That ban failed by the same point margin as the 06 ban. Goes to show when trying to ban abortion, you can’t please everyone.
I believe it’s impossible to write a bill that would make exceptions for abortion based on life and health of mother, and all medically necessary abortions. Medicine is too complicated.
Tiffany Campbell says:
Let me get this straight, I should have kept my mouth shut, knowing that the law up for a vote wouldn’t have allowed me to save one of my babies?
Actually, I would have preferred that you notify lawmakers of difficult situations such as yours and advocate that in addition to an exception for the life of the mother (which was accounted for in the legislation) that they also add an exception for the life of a multiple. That way there would be 97% fewer legal abortions. However, you seem to be advocating for allowing 100% of current abortions. That I don’t get.
Oh Car, I realize this is getting hard for you but here is my answer AGAIN,
“Car, I already addressed that. I wouldn’t have lent my story to the fight had the bills made an exception for cases like mine. But they didn’t, which shows how little they know about medicine and therefore shouldn’t be legislating medical decisions that will have zero impact on them. ”
And where did I say my survivor let his brother go? That’s just silly, a fetus can’t be a doctor!
You continue to dodge my question, you should run for office, politicians are great at dodging questions.
Lrning,
I have met with numerous legislators, governors, congressmen and women, they don’t care. One actually called me a killer. Goes to show you can’t reason with crazy.
“I believe it’s impossible to write a bill that would make exceptions for abortion based on life and health of mother, and all medically necessary abortions. Medicine is too complicated.”
But say for the sake of argument that such a bill did exist. Would you vote for it or advocate against it? I could get behind such a bill.
Tell him his life wasn’t worth saving, because he had to let his very ill brother go in order to save him.
Now the blame is put on the living twin for making the choice to abort? Wow. Poor little fella having to live with that put on him by his mother. When he is an adult he will understand that his very ill brother’s life was not worth saving. When he is an adult he can go back and read through everything and make his own judgment about right and wrong. To use him to take the fall for YOUR CHOICE to abort his sibling is just wrong.
Find me one doctor who is willing to put their name behind the statement, “If Tiffany had not chosen to abort the very ill twin, I guarantee 100% that the other twin would have died.”
Get a hold of that doctor and put him on here Tiffany. Ask him to make the statement and give us his name, where he practices and his license number.
Quit hiding behind medical records. If it’s in there, show us.
Tiffany: But that’s why prosecutorial discretion exists. Abortion is not unique in lacking clear lines of demarcation. The fallacy of the beard: barbers know the difference between when to use a razor and when to pull out a scissors.
True, courts will always find problems with laws that lack specificity. But only to the extent that activism compels their interest. There are a LOT of vague laws on the books that haven’t been challenged in court simply because prosecutorial discretion works well.
Tiffany Campbell says:
And where did I say my survivor let his brother go?
Tiffany Campbell says:
Tell him his life wasn’t worth saving, because he had to let his very ill brother go in order to save him.
I thought that’s exactly what you were saying. Maybe I’ve misread. Who does the bolded “he” refer to?
I meant to write we, not he.
“Find me one doctor who is willing to put their name behind the statement, “If Tiffany had not chosen to abort the very ill twin, I guarantee 100% that the other twin would have died.”Get a hold of that doctor and put him on here Tiffany. Ask him to make the statement and give us his name, where he practices and his license number.Quit hiding behind medical records. If it’s in there, show us.”
Now that made me laugh out loud, doctors have spoken about my cases in the press, you can do your own online research and find the articles. And isn’t there a rule on here about privacy? You hide behind a fake name, I don’t. And yet you ask me to give my doctors name, location and license number? When you bring me your medical records, I’ll show you mine. But since you can’t even use your real name, I doubt that will ever happen.
And my first set of doctors told me I needed to be prepared to lose both of them. They didn’t think my babies had a chance. But I traveled a long way to get a second opinion.
Prax,
“When he is an adult he will understand that his very ill brother’s life was not worth saving.”
It was worth saving, why do you think I traveled and was away from my other two kids for 10 days? By the time I arrived in Cincinnati the TTTS had progressed, my angel had suffered a stroke in utero, the doctors couldn’t believe he was still with us. We couldn’t save him, we had the operation 12 hours after the diagnosis and consul with our doctors, time was of the essence.
Some of you are completely rude implying I didn’t think one of my babies wasn’t worth saving. I would never say that to you. You say an abortion wasn’t needed, I guess you guys would know better than my doctors.
Thanks for the compassion.
I have looked around the internet Tiffany and am maybe looking in the wrong areas. In the interest of time, please point me to the articles where doctors state on the order of “If Tiffany had not chosen to abort the very ill twin, I guarantee 100% that the other twin would have died.”
Some of you are completely rude implying I didn’t think one of my babies wasn’t worth saving. I would never say that to you.
You are very rude in supporting the killing of unborn children and saying some of them aren’t worth saving based on the whims and intuitions of their mothers.
You use your real name Tiffany. That is your choice. I don’t. I have my reasons for not using my real name and that is my choice. I am not making false statements about other people and even if I were, I’m not using my real name so real people would not be hurt anyway.
You are making the claim that doctors stated that your living twin would had died had you not aborted his brother. I am merely looking for evidence of this. Sorry I don’t take your word based on previous discrepancies I’ve found in your statements.
Was the twin you aborted your only abortion?
Tiffany, you’re mixing things up again. Fetal abnormalities that will be fatal are different than your situation, and there is no inconsistency in not allowing a mother to kill a fetus because it will/may eventually die. When your child is terminally ill, you don’t kill him because he’s going to die anyway. You had a different situation from this. You had a situation where the one of 3 of the patients involved was threatening the lives of one of the others. If there was a treatment to save the other patients that resulted in the death of the ill fetus, then that should be treated the same way the life of the mother is treated. Perhaps you think abortion is good in both circumstances, though, in which case we can add another bullet to the situations in which you are pro-abortion.
Medicine is complicated, but it’s not so complicated that we can’t formulate coherent regulations. I mean seriously – because there are some situations in which maternal/fetal life are genuinely in danger, we have to allow abortion on demand. That is ludicrous.
I have no idea whether you “needed” to have an abortion as opposed to other treatments and I’m sure you were very sorry for the loss of your baby. But based on your situation, you are advocating for women to be able to kill healthy babies like your surviving son, for any reason whatsoever. That is very twisted reasoning.
Have everyone of you heard of SIDS? Well TTTS kills more babies every year than SIDS, so it’s not rare.
If there was a test for SIDS and the docs told you your fetus had a very high chance of dying from it, would you abort him?
I’m gonna take an educated guess when I state that abortion kills more babies than SIDS and TTTS, Tiffany. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Oh, Prax, you are very funny!
“I’m not using my real name so real people would not be hurt anyway. ”
How would real people be hurt by you using your real name? LOL!
And I could care less about your time, if you want to find it, keep looking.
And how dare you ask me if I have had other abortions, you have some real nerve, I refuse to answer because it’s none of your business. Why are you so obsessed with my story? Until you use your real name, I am done having a conversation with you. You hide and yet ask me to list my doctor’s names, their location and license numbers ON THE INTERNET! I have been interviewed by regional, national and international reporters, and none of them ever asked me the questions you have.
Tiff,
And thank you for all of your compassion for me and my abortion story.
These were your words of compassion-
you made the choice to have an abortion, no one chained you to the table
Why are you advocating healthy babies be killed via abortion by healthy moms?
Keep dodging my question, Car.
And yes you did make the choice to have an abortion, or were you chained to the table?
Oh, Prax, you are very funny!
I’ve been told this before Tiff! I’m thinking about stand-up.
And how dare you ask me if I have had other abortions, you have some real nerve, I refuse to answer because it’s none of your business.
Thanks for answering at least one of my questions, Tiffany.
I love you Carla. Thank you for all you do to help women and their families. God’s angels surround you.
Really, Tiffany, you believe you have the right to advocate for abortion based on your experiences, but do you deny Carla the right to advocate to save children from abortion based on her experiences?
I have compassion for you, I am very sorry your son is not here on this earth. I have compassion for Carla too, she grieves for her daughter and wants to help other women avoid the same pain and suffering. I find that very admirable that she uses her experience for good. What I don’t find admirable is your idea that your experience justifies elective abortions. That doesn’t mean I don’t care about your loss, it means that I want to protect healthy children and mothers from the horror that others have gone through with elective abortions. A lot of pro-lifers feel like that. That isn’t lacking in compassion.
Keep advocating the aborting of healthy babies by healthy moms based on your experience, Tiff.
My chains are gone. I’ve been set free.
Carry on.
Keep dodging my question, Car.
Speaking of funny. You still haven’t answered Jack’s question about supporting a theoretical bill (assuming it was written to a good degree of satisfaction) that would make exceptions for cases like your own but ban elective abortions.
I’m beginning to think you’re a pretty hard-core abortion rights advocate hiding behind your tragic case.
Thank you for this, CT.
It bears repeating.
Medicine is complicated, but it’s not so complicated that we can’t formulate coherent regulations. I mean seriously – because there are some situations in which maternal/fetal life are genuinely in danger, we have to allow abortion on demand. That is ludicrous.
All of us are going to die someday – some before birth, some during birth, some directly after birth and some much later.
If we are all going to die – is that a reason to allow abortion? Can’t people have a positive impact, despite having only a short time to live? What give US the right to directly cause another’s death, if that other person will die of naturally occurring causes anyway?
We just had a situation where an HIV-positive mother chose to abort her child. She even crossed state lines to do so. While we all feel compassion for her situation, for her health and the health of her youngster – she ended up choosing death by her request, instead of letting her child live, and see if there is a cure or at least have some chance at life for as long as possible.
Before I get responses from lots of people trying to do the compassionate thing – remember that Magic Johnson has lived a very long life with HIV positive status, thanks to current treatments. And there is at least one person that is known to have immunity to the HIV virus, which they are studying how to make an antidote or vaccine using his blood.
And personally I know a young man with a fatal lung disease, (cystic fibrosis), who not only went on to live in a family, grow up, go to school, but now is happily married. If his mother had aborted him, she would have missed all the years of his life, he would have missed all the years of his life, and all the people who know him, are impacted by him and love him would have missed him – including his wife.
Just a thought.
Not to mention that babies of HIV positive mothers don’t necessarily end up with the virus themselves, given proper treatment. I think the chances are actually pretty good, the last I read. That’s sad that she didn’t look into the other options.
Dear JackBorsch,
Thank you very much for your last comment. I mean the comment before your last one. LIKE!!
Car
No, thank YOU Carla for putting yourself out there to protect women and children. It’s inspirational to us all. <3
LOL! You guys are so funny. Let me tell you how a discussion works, one person asks a question, the other answers, until you can answer my questions, I refuse to answer yours. Carla and Prax seem to have a particular hard time grasping that.
And Jack, your question is hypothetical, since a bill like the one you proposed doesn’t exist. So show me a bill that has those exceptions, and I’ll read it and answer your question.
And I could care less about your time, if you want to find it, keep looking.
Still looking. . . . . Can’t find anything.
I did however find more discrepancies in your statements, Tiff. You should probably consider using a fake name. You seem to have trouble keeping your stories straight. I’m left to conclude you have a bit of trouble with the truth.
When you are tired of playing dodge-ball and want to join a better team, the pro-lifers will still be here for you.
Did I miss the questions you asked me?
Now I’m off to play with my kids, as for you guys, isn’t there an abortion clinic somewhere near you with women needing to be saved? Go scream to your hearts desire that you can help them. BTW, how effective is that approach? How many babies have you saved?
Prax, show me where I have been untruthful.
My lord, you are still looking and haven’t found it yet? You are really obsessed with what happened in my uterus, how much free time do you have?
Well. Hypothetical means just that. I have no doubt that the exceptions you would like don’t exist in a bill right now. My point was, how many exceptions would you like to see to protect for the situations you are talking about, while still banning the elective abortions of healthy babies by healthy women? Would a bill that left the health decisions completely up to the doctor be acceptable? I am simply trying to understand where a middle ground could be found, acceptable to you, between all abortions being legal and all abortions being banned.
Well, not all discussions work that way. Some people are genuinely interested in hearing others talk for hours. Some take umbrage with disinformation and seek to set the record straight with an unsolicited litany of links and analysis — often helpful to others in a thread. Oh heck, why not — here’s how much conversation varies on the Internet: http://www.flamewarriors.com/
Anyone recognize themselves in there? The taxonomy is pretty complete.
Anyone recognize each other? ;-)
You are really obsessed with what happened in my uterus
Again, reading into it once again being all about you. It may be extremely difficult for some people to believe but my obsession has nothing to do with them or their body parts but has everything to do with justice for victims of legalized murder.
It’s pretty clear that PP found another narcissistic easy target to promote their evil.
Tiffany is going to pout on the curb now b/c people won’t play by her imaginary rules of discussion. When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When they’re not, pound your fists and sulk like a baby (a born, healthy one of course).
I tried to engage in perfectly reasonable discussion with you Tiffany, but it’s getting hard to take you seriously. The “bill” question is trying to uncover what you’re really defending here. Why are you so cagey about it? You use your story to defend abortions that have absolutely nothing to do with it and act as though that story is justification enough for the extrapolation. It’s not. You need a coherent justification for what you’re defending, but since you won’t even define what that is, I guess that’s expecting too much.
Hi Tiffany,
It’s Car to you. :)
Tiffany – If this has been covered already in the thread, my apologies…
the use of ‘health of the mother’ is so broad it can mean contradictory things – like: “I need an abortion because I have (or don’t have) an education’ or ‘I need an abortion because I have (or don’t have) a job’ I need an abortion because i have (or have not) a husband; I need an abortion because … fill in the blank. The ‘health exception’ has no bearing on physical health – but is based on non-quantifiable mental health feelings – and what causes upset in one woman will not cause upset in another woman.
All circumstances change. What can not change is the past – and an action to cause the death of a human, no matter his or her state, can not be undone (except by supernatural circumstances). normally – when you are dead, you are dead.
So it goes with abortion and any other death-dealing blow. Once a life is lost, it is lost forever, with no do-overs. That particular person is gone. And when women come to realize that IF they made their decision for temporary circumstances, they can not undo what was done, but must learn to live with what is – and that is one of the basic difficulties with abortion. Beyond the death-causing attributes, women must learn to live with what was done because that action is permanent.
Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is forever.
And that is why, in the majority of cases, when the abortion option is opted for – it’s for temporary difficulties. Let’s at least agree that with those (I have/have not etc) with healthy moms and children, we should try to have those children live. and give the moms the most support possible – in housing/help/education/emotional..etc…. There is a starting point.
rasqual, I’ve never seen that list before! I fit into quite a few categories already and not through the list yet! I see others there too.
Bah ha ha! That link is great, rasqal! I’m labeling everyone on this blog in my head. ;)
What’s fun is that the types and their descriptions are not some contrived thing, as a joke. They’re actual empirically informed descriptions of well-known forum personalities.
Numerous people I’ve known only on-line come to mind whenever I parse this taxonomy. And I have to laugh at my own prevalent types.
MBTI move over — flame warrior typology is here! ;-)
edit: plus, the descriptions are just top-notch prose:
Warriors often underestimate Toxic Granny’s fighting abilities. She can be very aggressive, and because of the deference paid to the elderly, not only does Toxic Granny easily attract allies to aid in her defense, but her foes are reluctant to employ their strongest weapons against her. Prudent Warriors avoid confrontations with Toxic Granny because there is ignominy in defeat and no glory in victory.
LOL — or this excerpt from Net Rat: Even worse, in a serious discussion forum you may think you have succesfully faked a convincing understanding of Spinoza and later discover that the only person you have really managed to fool is still reading Harry Potter.
The self-conscious humility of that is just perfect.
The lack of compassion shown in some of these comments is truly regrettable.
No doctor is going to say anything with a 100% guarantee. Some of us may not have made the same decision as Tiffany if we were in her shoes, but how does it help the pro-life movement to refuse to recognize that these truly dire emergencies exist and account for them in future legislation?
IMO, some life-threatening pregnancy situations require heroic virtue and tremendous faith. I’m not sure we can legislate those. In the interest of saving millions of lives each year, that’s a compromise I feel the pro-life movement needs to be willing to make.
This statement is key: Medicine is complicated, but it’s not so complicated that we can’t formulate coherent regulations.
Tiffany, I hope you join the fight to save the lives of the over 1 million unborn babies that die each year through elective abortion.
I fit in so many categories. Ack!
No doctor is going to say anything with a 100% guarantee. Some of us may not have made the same decision as Tiffany if we were in her shoes, but how does it help the pro-life movement to refuse to recognize that these truly dire emergencies exist and account for them in future legislation?
Lrning, I realize that no doctor is going to say anything with a 100% guarantee. I am pointing out that Tiffany makes claims every where that her child would have died had she not aborted his brother rather than being honest and saying there was a chance that he would have died or that he would most likely be born with some handicaps. There were other options but she states over and over she needed an abortion as if she had no choice. She says she was told this by doctors, that there are places it says this on the internet, but she refuses to point out where.
Tiffany has been shown much compassion here and elsewhere by prolifers. Some of us don’t agree with her choice to abort (and none of us agree with her supporting all abortion) but this angers her.
She supports all abortion but gets quite angry when asked if she had an abortion in addition to her twin. If nothing is wrong with women choosing abortion in all circumstances, why get upset with the question?
I have compassion. We have all been victims of legalized abortion for too long. It is hard for me to have much compassion for someone who uses their children to condone the death of other children and I have to work hard at it. Sorry if you find this regrettable, Lrning, but it is the truth.
On the off chance that you are still reading this Tiffany, I am sorry that your baby died.
I have two questions.
Was one treatment option to wait until your sick child died naturally before acting to remove his body, while giving some treatment to help the healthy child?
Do you support elective abortion?
Thank you.
I haven’t discussed abortion or shown the photos of aborted children to my kids yet, but it will happen before they reach 10 years of age. I think it will be most helpful in their decision-making process, BEFORE the crazy hormones kick in and possibly muddle their brains.
I start by showing my kids videos of what we all look like in our earliest stages of life–real embryos and fetuses. This website is an excellent, unbiased, scientific resource:
http://www.ehd.org/
I let my 4 year old daughter watch a video of a 4-6 week old embryo, and didn’t say a word. She pointed and said to me, “Look Mommy, it’s a baby!”
Ah, truth from the mouths of babes! :)
Amen to that, Cheri!!
And you get the Getting a Thread Back on Topic Award!! Congratulations!!
“Well, Carla, I will bring my beautiful child to you, and you can look him in the eye and tell him that he deserves to be dead. What time and date works for you?”
Hi Tiffany. I was adopted as an infant. When I became an adult, I learned more about the circumstances of my conception. My birth mother was mentally ill, unmarried and in an abusive relationship. When she found out she was pregnant with me, she went to have an abortion. She found out she was one week too late for an abortion and my life was spared. The converse of your statement would be this: “I will come to you and you can look me in the eye and tell me that I deserve to be dead. What time and date works for you?”
“I would be a hypocrite if I told other women that I deserved and abortion, but they didn’t”
So, instead what you’re saying is that your son deserved to live, but I didn’t due to the whims of my birth mother. Rebecca Kiessling was conceived in rape in a time where abortion was illegal in Michigan, the state where her mother lived. It was only because abortion was illegal that she is alive right now. I want you to go to Rebecca Kiessling, look her in the eye and tell her that it’s a shame that no one fought hard enough to allow her mother to kill her. I want you to tell her that other people deserve to live, but she doesn’t.
The loss of your child is heartbreaking, and I’m sorry you went through that. But you’re using the tragic loss of your son to advocate for laws that would have put me, Rebecca Kiessling and many others to death for no reason. You are fighting so that women who have the opportunity to do what you did not (have a healthy baby without the risk of him/her killing another baby) can kill their child. However anyone feels about abortion, the fact remains that you wanted both of your children and most likely would have given birth and loved both deeply if it were not for your tragic circumstances. You had the option of saving one child or possibly losing both. These women you’re fighting for just don’t want to give birth/anyone to know they’re pregnant/get fat. Their children might very well live if it weren’t for you and others like you. Your son was sick. These women just don’t want their’s.
“I trust women to make their own decisions”
Your fellow pro-choice advocate, Mara Hvistendahl, has written a book that illustrates the heartbreaking fact that women are making decisions that are hurting all of society. Women are abusing this “right” and Hvistendahl herself is saying that they can’t be trusted to make these decisions.
Tiffany:
I agree that it is ridiculous to ask for someone to publicly post health records and such details as dr. license #’s. This is the internets, an often dangerous place. I mean, recently a family was attacked and robbed just because they posted a pic of themselves in front of their house on facebook labelled “we got our settlement!”. Scary! That’s an example of why I don’t use my real name btw.
It’s also quite ridiculous to ask someone defending the lost life of a child to come and tell his brother he should be dead. That’s also a ridiculous leap in logic and to require that action as a stipulation to further discussion pretty much ends it and you might as well leave. You’ve created a stalemate of ludicrousocity. (I made that awesome word up :)
You can answer a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer. Did you never play pretend as a kid? Imaginary play prepares kids for managing many different life situations. Hypothetical questions give us insight into how we and/or others would handle many different situations and prepares us for those situations or similar. It’s a healthy exercise. I’d have been kicked out of self-defense class the first day if I answered the sensei’s hypothetical, “You’re leaving the store late and see a large van parked beside your car in the near empty parking lot. There’s two men standing beside it smoking. Do you continue to your car, or go inside and ask a security guard to escort you?” with, “Your question is hypothetical. Show me the van and the smoking men and I’ll tell you.” See? I’m sure you understand this. Why are you stone-walling?
Perhaps we are looking for a shred of evidence that might suggest you are not an abortion-should-be-legal-in-all-cases-no-matter-what activist hiding behind your hard case experience. We want to know if there’s any real chance AT ALL of a discussion or debate.
Your family experienced something very tragic. I’m very sorry for your loss. I don’t think it justifies ELECTIVE abortion though. If the hypothetical bill had an allowance for the life of the mother and/or multiple to your satisfaction along with a rape/incest allowance would you hypothetically vote for it? Imagine…..
I agree that it is ridiculous to ask for someone to publicly post health records and such details as dr. license #’s.
CH, I was attempting to get Tiffany to admit that her doctors did not tell her that she NEEDED an abortion as she states. I wasn’t expecting that she would put this info out there because no doctor in their right mind would tell her what she HAD to do in her situation nor make this statement publicly.
Prax,
Alright. Agreed. That tactic is easily misunderstood though.
You know, it occurs to me that Tiffany may believe that the medical procedure she underwent that resulted in the death of her weaker child was an abortion in the same way that some who undergo surgery for an ectopic pregnancy regard that as an abortion. Perhaps she is confused about medical “double effect”. It’s too bad she insists on stubborn ignorance as a response to the perceived ignorance of others.
I did some research on TTTS before and I only saw “abortion” mentioned for totally hopeless cases where both twins are predicted to die anyway (like currently dieing or an over 80% chance). I’m in the camp to let them live as long as God wills in this case and prenatal hospice and neonatal hospice is very supportive for this. I also recommend benotafraid. The “selective reduction” was described as an option not to “abort” one twin so the other may live or have a better chance, but because the one twin was currently dieing and had no chance of life (like Tiffany’s description seemed to imply with the stroke, but that only suggests a handicap. If the docs said he was dieing, then perhaps he was). When that twin died it would kill the other so they occlude the umbilical cord or major fetal vessels in the dieing baby to avoid death or damage (especially of the brain) to the other baby as a result of an acute transfusion through the connections. It’s sad and tragic, but is NOT considered an ABORTION or even a selective reduction in most cases. Just a life saving procedure like ectopic surgery.
I saw a few procedures that had an 80%+ survival rate. I must assume that, and this is assuming ALOT, that Tiffany’s condition was discovered before 25wks of pregnancy and that she underwent at least two other surgical procedures that turned out to be unsuccessful to treat or correct the TTTS before the condition worsened to the point that her son was dieing and they had to perform the occlusion because of the imminent danger to the healthier twin. It sounds from what I’ve gathered that that situation developed on her way to access surgeries to save both. Perhaps her first set of docs suggested abortion or hospice, she wanted to save them instead if possible, went to do that, but twin A suffered a fatal stroke (or something fatal) and began to die before she got there and the docs who would have/could have performed the life saving surgery could only perform an occlusion to save twin B from the imminent death of twin A. Tragic. Sad. NOT ABORTION. AND DOES NOT JUSTIFY ALL ELECTIVE ABORTIONS.
What do you think Tiffany? Am I close? Did you attempt or were you given the option of surgeries with 80%+ success rates? Or did the tragic situation I described mirror you’re own? Again, I’m sorry for your loss but it doesn’t justify the willful murder of other healthy children. It just doesn’t. Long before Roe, and even in the most “anti-abortion” states with the most “restrictive” bans, these sorts of procedures are allowed and performed because they do not qualify as ABORTIONS. You’re logic seems to suggest you thought that SD bill would have prevented even ectopic surgeries as well! It would not have. Medical practitioners know this.
“But Tiffany Campbell was also there to hear this expert explain that left untreated, TTTS would pose a significant health risk to the life of the mother. In other words, TTTS would fall under the health and life of the mother exception in IM11 and therefore IM11 would have in no way hindered Tiffany Campbell from seeking even a selective reduction procedure. Initiated Measure 11 leaves all the options for woman in her situation in the hands of the woman and her doctor.”
http://www.voicescarryblog.com/planned-parenthood-tries-to-make-sd-woman-center-of-abortion-debate/
Tiffany knew this SD bill she is fighting (was fighting) held no threat to her or other women in her or similar situations. The SD bill still had a wiiiiiiiiiiiide window for abortion-minded women to get what they wanted. I think she is just a pro-abort using her tragedy to shame and cow pro-lifers. It won’t work. We aren’t as ignorant as the pro-aborts enjoy believing.
Other links to Campbells story:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/planned-parenthood-desperate-l.html
http://hoghouseblog.com/2008/10/28/another-take-on-twin-twin-transfusion-syndrome/
course Rh reality check has it’s biased non-factual input too, all based on the assumption this was an elective abortion. They also consider ectopic surgeries and premature birth (if baby dies soon after) to be abortion too…… is there an eye roll smilie?
edit:
Hey! the story in these articles is differing significantly from her comments here….. wonder why??? If the healthier twin was “pumping blood for both” that suggests the weaker didn’t have a heart or had a non-functioning heart. One story says she had 24hrs to decide to terminate or let both die, but here she said she disagreed with that diagnosis and traveled a long way (gone ten days) in order to seek alternative treatment or a second opinion and during that trip a fatal event occurred. But wouldn’t the lack of a heart or a healthy heart already be fatal??? Anyway either way the treatment for the surviving twin was not an abortion of the weaker and was allowed under the SD bill. It seems this horrible tragedy is truly irrelevant to the bill or cause Tiffany is opposing/supporting. That’s just wrong to use this terrible event in such a way.
Here’s another link that talks of the truth-challenged Tiffany:
My gut tells me that Tiffany may have another abortion in her past but we all know intuition is sometimes wrong.
http://kansansforlife.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/disabled-unborn-children-no-defense-for-abortion/
for the love of pete you people are incredible. Not only are you RUDE with a capital R to ask/demand medical records from someone (Tiffany) but to sit in judgement (prax/Carla/jack) of a situation you could know NOTHING about bc u weren’t there is priceless. Tiffany, u r a hero. To your son, his brother whom you let rest in peace, and to all the other women that you are fighting for in this country!
I don’t judge her situation. I am arguing about the fact she seems to be using it to justify elective abortions.
Choice for one. Choice for all. You don’t want or need an abortion, don’t have one. Oh wait Jack… you have NO uterus….that explains why you and the Bobsie twins are obsessed with Tiffany’s. Nitey nite judges. Good luck on the flip side.
You people are not Christians. You people are not out to save lives. You are out to torture people like Tiffany. Shame on you. Mind your own business and leave women alone. Pray for them, leave them alone, and stop picking fights on the internet. Jill Stanek is making a lot of money off of you doing this.
Oh, right. I forgot that people who are not directly involved in an injustice cannot have an opinion on it. I guess I shouldn’t fight against the death penalty or abuse of animals, since I am not a felon or an animal. Anyway, men are affected by abortion. Male babies are aborted, and men lose their children before they are born.
Argue all you want for elective abortion, and I’ll argue against it. May the best side win.
Are you judging me with the same judgment you accuse me of judging Tiffany with?
I question why in the world she is advocating for elective abortions on perfectly healthy babies and perfectly healthy mothers which are 97% of abortions. She is using her own story to do just that. She is advocating for ALL abortions based on her story. And we know NOTHING about Tiffany’s story? That seems strange because she has come here quite a bit to tell us her story.
She still hasn’t answered why she is using her story to advocate for abortion on demand for any reason.
One can only assume that Tiffany is a big girl and doing her interviews on regional and national news and then coming to a prolife blog to defend her actions means she is open to discussing her life. SHE is inviting the debate. SHE comes here to comment. Maybe Tiffany should mind her own business.
Please link to any of Jill’s financial records, please. Enquiring minds need to know how much she is making on this.
Amen Mama!
To those of you too uneducated in science to properly identify a “fetus” from a “baby,” here is a succinct and sensical primer, and a reason it’s hard to take you seriously:
‘At what point is a fetus no longer a fetus, but a baby?’
The important thing to consider about these terms is that they define developmental stages. A baby is a baby because it is a fully formed, born human being with the capacity to maintain its own bodily functions separate from its mother although it still has social dependences (eg. nutrients or needing to be fed – however it no longer needs its mother to digest the food first, it now has that ability). A foetus is the developmental stage before that (well, technically it is before neonate which is the stage directly after birth and before baby but i won’t get technical). It is the developmental stage where it is not able to maintain its own bodily functions, is literally physically dependant on its mother for all these aspects, is not fully developed, cells have not fully differentiated (obviously this is referring to early pregnancy) or specialised yet and is therefore only a potential person.
It is also important to know that personhood or the acquisition of rights has really got nothing to do with developmental terminology. If foetus and baby swapped places, so that baby now represents the developmental stage that used to be known as the foetal stage, it will not have rights or personhood just because it is called a ‘baby’. And, conversely, foetus that now represents the developmental stage that used to be known as baby/infant would not be denied rights just because it is called a ‘foetus’. Personhood and rights are granted to people who are born and that is what helps define what a person is.
Also to further emphasis the absolute necessity to have these different terms, contrary to what the pro-life movement might want to think, is there is a HUGE difference between a foetus and a baby. By using terms like ‘unborn baby’ it is not only logically and factually wrong, it is wrong medically. If I, as a nurse, were to administer medication in utero equivalent to the medicinal doses of a fully developed and born baby, the foetus would die from overdose or poisoning. Its body does not have the capacity to metabolise, utilise and excrete the medication I give it. However, if it were TRULY an ‘unborn baby’, wouldn’t you expect it to? This terminology is not used for no good reason. Apart from defining developmental stages, it also helps determine which treatment is appropriate for the person at that stage, by fully understanding and appreciating the differences between each stage. So by me understanding how a foetus differs from a baby, I can be sure that I will always provide it with appropriate care. Using terms like ‘unborn baby’ is emotional manipulation, nothing more or less. If I cannot treat them medically as a baby, then it is NOT a baby.
As for the dog analogy – the dog will ALWAYS be a dog no matter what part of it is removed. Removing a hind leg, ear, eye or tail does not change the fact that it is a fully developed animal, sexually mature and capable of reproduction (as a dog usually refers to a mature animal as opposed to puppy which is immature), living separately from its mother and able to maintain its own bodily functions. It still has social dependences, but not physical dependences. When the dog was in its mother’s womb, it was a foetus as well. There is no discrimination in that respect.
Yes life begins at conception, but then technically it existed before that as well as both the sperm and the ova were ‘alive’ also. Shall we ban masturbation and menstruation? But the development of a new organism begins when they combine, absolutely. No one denies when ‘life begins’, but rather when rights begin. As I stated before, there are big differences between a fully developed person and a developing one. Therefore granting them equal rights as if they were on equal terms does not make sense. The fact of the matter is, born human beings are considered more ‘precious’ or ‘valuable’ than foetuses/embryos/zygotes/blastocyst. If a child and a freezer full of embryos were in a burning building and you could only save one, you wouldn’t save the freezer full of embryos. The child has the right to be saved; it is fully developed, sentient and would sure as hell feel the agony of being burnt to death. The embryos would be none the wiser. Granting them equal rights degrades the rights of fully formed people. Looking at this scenario again with foetal rights granted, one could use the utilitarian approach and say it is better to save the freezer full of embryos than it is to save the child. But they ARE different, granting them equal rights as if there are no differences means it would become an ethical and moral dilemma about who to save in situations such as these, when it should be a no brainer. If they are not their own individual being capable of supporting their own bodily functions then we cannot treat them as if they can or that they are somehow exactly the same as those already born. Just my opinion. Great question though!
** I question why in the world she is advocating for elective abortions on perfectly healthy babies and perfectly healthy mothers which are 97% of abortions. **
Wait, are you saying that you think it’s acceptable to kill unhealthy babies?
Thank you, Carla! Believe me, I get into plenty of tussles w/ pro-choice peeps on Facebook. Today is not that day. ;-)
In addition, my children do not yet comprehend death. When they are capable of understanding the permanence of death, then I think abortion will be a little less abstract to explain. Although it won’t be any less disturbing for them to bear. My God, I am not looking forward to that day. I myself cannot be consoled when fully realizing what abortion is, how can I possibly comfort them??? I suppose we shall all cry together.
That video is freaking hilarious. Keep up the great work, my fellow human beings!
Wait are you kidding, Tera?
I will type slower.
I am a no exceptions prolifer.
Tiffany had an abortion for TTTS. She now advocates elective abortions for any reason. 97% of abortions are done on the healthy mothers of healthy babies.
Still wondering WHY Tiffany advocates for their deaths.
Cheri,
email me so we can be facebook friends!!
carla@jillstanek.com
You will lament with your children as I lament with mine.
Tera,
Wow. Long post.
Is a developing fetus a living human being?
Embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, teenager, adult. All developmental stages in the life of human being.
>> Embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, teenager, adult. All developmental stages in the life of human being. <<
Read the thing again, please. It nicely covers why it’s so idiotic to consider a fetus and a baby interchangeable.
If they are “unborn babies” then you are an “undead corpse” and should be treated as such.
Tera, even a corpse is treated with more dignity, respect and honor than the unborn babies we strive to protect.
As to “no exceptions,” that’s irrelevant. You are the one citing Tiffany’s stance – which, of course, is the only consistent one.
She believes fetuses are not autonomous people and women may choose to assign a value to them.
You believe it’d be MORE ACCEPTABLE if Tiffany was inconsistent and thought it was okay for her to terminate her crisis pregnancy (late-term, by the way) .. but not for women like me to get rid of a 6-week embryo/fetus that’s no bigger than a freakin’ kidney bean.
Please.
// Tera, even a corpse is treated with more dignity, respect and honor than the unborn babies we strive to protect. //
They are not babies. And cut the crap. You don’t care if women have no access to proper prenatal care.
You are a no exceptions pro lifer who CHOSE to abort and now is hiding from that choice and spewing ridiculousness. So no exceptions EXCEPT when it was you and you needed the protections of CHOICE. I love how you speak clearly, understand what is being said here clearly, argue your points, and are not even the slightest bit swayed from your strong opinions and yet you claim you were “coerced” into your termination. Hmmmm. Where’s the proof of that? Show us the records? Give us the license #, etc.
You are not a TTTS specialist so how dare you question a medical diagnoses? You are truly unbelievable “Carla”.
Tera,
I dont remember discussing prenatal care, but since you know my thoughts so intimately, why dont you tell us all how *I* feel and what *I* care about.
They are babies, as Carla stated, at a different developmental stage. “Fetus” doesnt change the fact that they are living, growing human beings.
Is a developing fetus a living human being, Tera?
“Amazed by you”
Yes. I am hiding. Always hiding. Hiding here in plain sight and telling my abortion story so others won’t kill their own children in the name of CHOICE. And live to regret the day they paid someone to kill their baby. Shame on me.
I am not swayed by lies. Well except for the lies I was told at the mill that “it” was “just a bunch of cells” at 10 weeks along. Now I know better.
No need to be a TTTS specialist to ask a question that I still have not gotten an answer for.
How dare I question Tiffany??!!! Good grief.
Tiffany is the only consistent one? Seriously? She calls the child that tragically died her “angel” (he is), grieves for him (understandably), dares people who are against abortion to tell her surviving son that he should be dead (which he doesn’t), says that he was worth saving (which he is), but then turns around and says, “I’m going to help women who aren’t in the life-or-death situation I was in kill their children because while my child was worth saving, their’s are not!” I’m with her up until that point. That’s where she veers off in a completely random direction. That’s completely inconsistent
What mother’s response to the death of their child is to help other women kill their’s?
And for the person who said we should just mind our own business…really? Wouldn’t you be concerned if we earnestly thought (whether you think we are wrong or not) that human children are being put to death legally in this country but kept silent? What kind of person keeps quiet when they think an innocent person is being put to death–by their own mother, nonetheless? Should we also mind our own business when a toddler is being beaten or killed? If we did nothing, that would be cause for concern.
Doula:
“I dont remember discussing prenatal care, but since you know my thoughts so intimately, why dont you tell us all how *I* feel and what *I* care about.”
Prove me wrong. Do you support single-payer healthcare?
Amazed, if you want to know the truth about “Carla” (why is it in quotes? It’s her real name) you should click on her name and learn a bit more about her before you jump to judgments. I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to grasp that a woman 20 years ago is probably not exactly the same as she is today. Hopefully she has learned and grown.
This woman is my friend, and you will not attack her on this site. You do not know her story and if you did, I think you’d be incredibly ashamed of yourself right now.
Carla learned from her abortion that ABORTION HURTS WOMEN and KILLS CHILDREN. I know her story isn’t widely publicized like that of Tiffany, but you could perhaps take some time to learn about it before you accuse her of “hiding” from her choice (which is so freaking laughable).
WHOA WHOA WHOA STOP THE WAGONS!!
Carla had an ABORTION???
Baaaaaaaahahahahaha!!
[edited by mod] the hypocrisy meter just exploded.
Yes I had an abortion. My daughter died in an abortion mill on Sept. 5th, 1990.
I am a hypocrite for regretting my abortion?
You keep laughing, Tera. This is all so hilarious.
“Carla had an ABORTION???
Baaaaaaaahahahahaha!! [edited] the hypocrisy meter just exploded.”
Sooo, if people make mistakes they cannot warn others against making the same ones? I think it would be wrong not to! I did a TON of drugs when I was an unhappy teenage runaway, are you arguing the only non-hypocritical thing I could do is tell others that it’s A-OK to dope yourself up and run away from home rather than getting help with an unhappy home life? That would be hideously irresponsible of me. I can make better use of my mistakes by telling others how damaging they were.
Carla has every right to warn other people of the damage that abortion caused her, and to suggest she doesn’t have that right is a little ridiculous.
An abortion mill? Wow, is that like a steel mill? Did you have to punch a clock before you went in?
Look, clearly you are psychologically altered for various reasons and choose to blame it on the removal of some fetal cells, which happens naturally 60 percent of the time anyway.
I’m sorry, I can’t hold back the laughter here. There is just NOTHING more priceless than a hypocritical [edited by mod] who BEGS women to not take advantage of the life-changing, freedom-inducing decision they got to make.
Just shut your trap and let women make their own decisions. This is my last post here, because you are evil miscreants, taking issue with Tiffany’s decision to save one of her fetuses. You make me sick, in fact. May your “god” forgive you for judging her.
Wow, Amazed and Tera come on here, guns blazing, and think they know all about us here, and they DON’T KNOW about Carla???!? Oh, yeah, you’ve sure been here long enough to make judgments. Uh huh.
FYI, Tiffany has been here a LOT over the course of time, so we know all about her story. Which is more than you obviously know about Carla’s story.
Using terms like ‘unborn baby’ is emotional manipulation, nothing more or less.
Using terms like “fetus” and “embryo” is (though correct terminology) is used to manipulate women into believeing they arent actually killing a baby. Its deceitful and causes a detachment between mother and child. Mothers in crisis pregnancies typically want nothing more than for someone to tell them what they are doing is OK. Too bad they dont often get the truth.
So more correct terminology: Infant, neonate, toddler, adolescent, adult, geriatric
All different stages of development in a human beings life, yet still clearly human. The fetal exception…location.
I believe single payer healthcare has many positives and many drawbacks. It isnt a black and white issue to answer yes or no. I’d have to read the proposal to know if I’m in favor of it or not.
And yes! Carla did have an abortion! What an asset to have on our side…someone who knows first hand the horror women and babies face during and after an abortion. Such a strong voice. Thank you Carla for advocating the injustice women and babies face through abortion! <3
It’s obvious Tera can’t carry on any sort of respectful conversation.
Goodbye, Tera.
Kel,
* I will not attack her on this site*. Since when are you in charge of this site? I’m not ashamed of ANYTHING I have written, done, nor said in defense of choice, Tiffany, or any of the other peoPle with brains on this site. I terminated at 20 weeks due to a diagnoses that was incompatible with life and you KNOW NOTHING about me or MY story nor will I share it with any of you. So what’s your point Kel? Bold letters supposed to scare me? Hmmm. Not scared. She’s your friend…bully for you. Carla has proven she is not willing to own her choice and apparently needs you and your BOLD letters to defend her. Ooooh I’m shaking in my shoes.
I couldnt give a rats butt whether Carla has changed over the last 20 years. What I see now is a woman hiding (yup in PLAIN VIEW) from the reality that she made a choice and now she wants to “blame” her choice on someone else because she has been brainwashed into believing she was coerced. there are a lot of types of cowards in the world, but the most dangerous ones often lay in plain sight.
Kel,
* I will not attack her on this site*. Since when are you in charge of this site?
You really are new.
Carla owns her choice. And she has helped more people than you will ever know.
Do you believe a medical clinic which shows women a video of red circles (clump of cells) at 10 weeks is being medically accurate? Your child was 20 weeks. You were aware of that child’s humanity, yes? Carla was not aware. Carla was lied to, as are many women today. Read or listen to her story. Take the time. You are truly clueless at this point.
I didn’t ask you to share your story here. Carla is a moderator on this site, and you will not attack her. If you’d like to stay and have a rational, respectful discussion without hurling insults at Carla, then you are welcome. If not, you are welcome to leave.
Carla has spent TWO days insulting Tiffany. Just bc she’s the moderator does not make that ok. As for you….once again I will repeat….your “threats” or “invitations” to leave if I don’t make nicey in the sandbox with you mean nothing to me. Kick me out if you don’t like hearing the TRUTH…..that she made a choice like the rest of us. All you are pricing with your “threats”/”suggestions” is how very little you seek to have a dialogue that is anything less than one-sided rhetoric. Now, I have far more important things to do than chat with you fine treasures of brilliance. Ta ta. For now.
The “truth” is that you’re here defending your choice along with Tiffany’s.
I made no threats. I posted emphatically in bold. Read the rules of posting on this site and follow them.
Carla has asked questions of Tiffany and received NO ANSWERS.
This isn’t RH Reality Check. We don’t delete pro-choicers’ comments without good reason, as you have probably witnessed in your short time here. However, we do not allow the kind of hateful, incendiary comments you’ve made here. This is a pro-life blog. You knew that when you came here. Dialoguing usually does not include insults like you have exhibited here if you want to actually have a discussion.
Amazed,
I haven’t insulted Tiffany. Unless you find honest questions insulting.
I paid someone to kill my daughter. My flesh and blood. My first child. I own it and will regret it until the day I die. I will tell anyone who will listen that abortion does not help, heal, solve or empower.
Your child died as well but you defend your “choice to terminate” here.
You have the right to advocate FOR abortion after yours, but I don’t have the right to argue AGAINST it after mine?
Call me what you will, believe whatever you would like.
Guess what, Tara? If you would’ve let that “kidney bean” continue living, you would’ve found out that he/she wasn’t a bean or cells or tissue at all, but a very real living human being.
I know because someone was trying to get me to make that “choice” that would’ve killed our “kidney bean”, and I refused to choose. I don’t choose whether my children live or die.
She’s a happy 9 year old now. That’s a lot of “fetal tissue”/”cells”/”kidney bean”.
Yours was the same as her. The same.
Wow…whatch the pro-choicers turn on a post-abortion women and attack her, because she had a negative abortion experience and her experience, feelings, and views don’t fit into their neat little box of how women should act and feel after an abortion. Shame on you! It goes to show you only care about women after their abortion as long as they’re happy/no regrets and they support your political cause, you could care less about the women otherwise!
There any number of varying emotional reactions to having an abortion. While there are women have no regret or negative feelings about their abortions, there are also those who may feel sad about it but feel they made a good decision; but there are also women who experience a more profound loss and grief and/or depression. Every women’s experience is different and is personal. There is no right or wrong way to feel. And every woman has the right to her own emotions, reactions, and feelings surrounding her abortion experience (whether they fit into your political views or not).
An embryo is not a baby, a child is not an adult, an adult is not a geriatric……sure, but what part of any of that means that one has more or less value than the other???
What part of drawing imaginary lines of development increases or decreases humanity? A two yr old is only a developing adult, so sure, a potential adult, who can’t take an adult dose of medicine without danger to their life, but does that mean the toddler is not actually human? Not actually alive? Not AS ALIVE as the adult? Why is it so hard to understand that size, location, development, and dependency are NOT good measures for human value?
My good friend spent weeks hooked up to machines to stay alive while suffering pneumonia, was he not human during that time simply because his lungs were full of fluid and he couldn’t live without outside support?? Should we have been able to kill him then? Chop him up? He was certainly a source of “emotional stress” and a “financial burden” then!! Could you go and tell him you wouldv’e supported his murder during that temporary state he was in? Just like a fetus?
I knew a child who was 13 and physically no more developed than a two yr old. He was even just 3ft long! He was bedridden, paralyzed, unable to speak. So because of his size, and development was he not human? Undeserving of the RIGHT to life? Would you go and tell him his mother is free to chop him up and throw him out with the tissues because he is so small, so underdeveloped and so dependent on her?
My youngest is only two, still developing, is she not as human as me? Am I less human than my grandmother??? You’re measure of worth, humanity, and value doesn’t work when applied to the real world Tara.
We aren’t talking about the “right” to drink, or the “right” to drive, or even “equal rights” (I quite like that my children don’t have the “right” to do those things), we’re talking about the RIGHT TO LIFE as set forth in our Constitution and the value of human life as described in the NT. A sperm is not a human. An ovum is not a human. A leg/tooth/appendix is not a human. A blastocyst/embryo/fetus/neonate/infant/toddler/child/tween/pre-teen/adolescent/adult/geriatric is a human. Humans are humans throughout their development. They are never “potential” humans. An ovum and a sperm have the potential to become a human, but are not in themselves “potential” humans either.
The insistence on referring to the pre-born human as a “fetus” is only an attempt to dehumanize the preborn person in order to make “abortion” palatable to those who otherwise would be wholeheartedly against it. You too are really only a “lump of cells” you know. If you want to extend the exercise. One of my favorite terms when referring to humans is “ugly bags of mostly water”. That’s you and me dear. The only thing that gives us value is the fact that we were created by a loving God. The only reason we have “rights” in this country is because of our Constitution. That Constitution at one time denied the right to life to a select group of human beings, then compromised and afforded them the value of 3/5ths of a person, and that was wrong and corrected. We seek to finish what was started and ensure that ALL humans have the equal right to LIFE as they should.
Tara I’m sorry you lost your child, and more sorry that you chose abortion to take his/her life before s/he could die naturally.
Thank you Carla for your bravery and advocacy! You are a Godsend to so many hurting women who have been through what you have and only encounter heartless laughter and derision when they go for help from their “pro-choice” sisters. I think their cruelty and coarseness does as much damage as the initial abortion to a woman in that kind of pain. You are a healer! Thank you!
Continuing on the topic:
Every woman has the right to her own emotions, reactions, and feelings surrounding her abortion experience.
When you tell Carla to “own her abortion” you are telling her how she should frame her experience and feel.
When you criticize her as a hypocrit for how she feels about her abortion decision, now 20 years later, you are shaming and belittling her.
When you say she’s “hiding from the reality of her choice” you are telling her how she should frame her experience and feel.
When you say, “clearly you are psychologically altered for various reasons and choose to blame it on the removal of some fetal cells,” then derisively laugh, you are being verbally abusive.
When you say, “she’s blaming her choice on someone else because she has been brainwashed into believing she was coerced” you are shaming her for what she experienced/feels and you are questioning her perceptions of her experience (called gaslighting, a form of psychological abuse).
In fact, you all are attacking Carla with the same judgment you accuse her and others of judging Tiffany with…Pot meet Kettle. But it goes beyond that, most if not all of these are psychological and emotional abuse and bully tactics. It’s definately not healthy, nor does it show maturity.
It’s reactions like the ones we’ve seen above from pro-choicers which shame and keep women silent. In fact, attacks like these on women who express feelings grief, loss, or regret after their abortions contriutes to the shame and stigma surrounding abortion and doesn’t allow women to find healing and find peace, or learn to frame their experience in a healthy manner. If anything it’s definately not pro-woman.
Amazed that none of you think that berating someone who made an impossible medical decision by repeatedly demanding medical records (praxedes) and “proof” that she had no other option (jack) to save her other twin is not disrespectful, hateful, and hurtful inthe same pot/kettle way. The Stanek site repeatedly spews this vitriolic hateful nonsense and yup we came here knowing it and standing up for women like us who know we did the right thing in letting our children rest in peace instead of dying a horrifying death hours/minutes after their brths in order to have some kodak moment that changes nothing. I don’t need any of you to feel ok about my choice. I was never here for that. You all go on believing that taking away women’s rights to choose is pro woman, pro child, pro life when In fact it’s none of those. It’s pro ignorance and pro control.
No matter the denial, relief, joy, elation, regret, shame, anger, or grief a woman feels after her abortion the fact remains that her child has died. Abortion ends the life of an innocent human being.
I stand as a reminder to that and will never stop pointing out that truth. Those that are proabortion and try desperately to justify their abortions become enraged that I would speak out against it! That is not my issue. It is theirs. Their rage.
My daughter died. Her life was ended and she was sucked out of my uterus. It took me years to come to terms with it and find healing from it. She has a name. Her name is Aubrey. She is mine and it is in her memory and her honor that I will NEVER shut up, sit down, or mind my own business.
My deepest pain has become my greatest passion.
****************
To those that are reading this and are struggling after their abortions there is hope and help and healing for you.
Please email me carla@jillstanek.com
Please find a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat near you
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
or access Silent No More
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org
You can also call the National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE
You are not alone and I am hoping and praying that you reach out for help IN SPITE of what others think or say about your abortion experience. If you are hurting there is help.
Thank you to those that came to my defense. Precious warriors.
Abortion is something I have done. It is not who I am. I am what He says I am.
Buckle up. It is only going to get worse.
The term “baby” is a very broad term, and there’s nothing wrong or incorrect about using it to discuss a human being in utero. Using the term “infant” in this context would be inaccurate, but baby is perfectly accurate. I often refer to my 3.5 year old son as a baby. He’s not an infant, but he is still in many ways a baby, as is a baby in utero. Size does not determine the worth of a human being’s life. Your kidney bean sized baby wasn’t worthless because of his/her size, just as my 3 year old’s life isn’t worth less than mine just because he is smaller than I am. I find it extremely hypocritical that pro-“choice” commenters come here yelling and swearing while accusing the pro-lifers of torturing and judging. The most hostile, un-empathetic comments on on this thread are from the other side. They come here knowing that they’re not going to change anyone’s mind, but they still invest time and energy into hateful posts. Personally, I think it’s to distract from the original purpose of the thread, and to make it hard for the rest of us to have a constructive discussion about the issue at hand.
I agree, Claire. Even children know abortion is wrong, and once they know about it, they’re appalled. I think that says a lot about abortion on its face, and pro-choicers HATE that.
Amazed, you apparently haven’t read any of my posts.
Amazed By You,
Actually I had planned to write more, however as you can see from the time stamp it was getting late and I needed to get some sleep. Even if I do say something to them, how does that justify verbally and emotionally attacking Carla in response to the perceived attack on Tiffany? Is abusive behavior ever justifiable (even if you think the person deserved it)?
Praxes & Jack, While I understand your intentions, when you are questioning and challenging her perception of the severity of her case, you are in fact gaslighting as well. You both need to back off. Carla’s question was a better approach as it was addressing her views and political activism, not personally attacking her. Hey everyone, it all goes back to the commenting guidelines, attack ideas not people.
Where did I question the severity of her case? I asked about her views on elective abortion.
when you are questioning and challenging her perception of the severity of her case, you are in fact gaslighting as well.
Hi Rachael, I didn’t question Tiffany’s perceptions on the severity of her case. I questioned that which she states as facts. She claimed there were places that I could find out these facts, but then refused to point me to them. I have never claimed her situation was not severe. I was looking for facts about her situation, not her perceptions of her situation.
Please reread through my statements and point out to me exactly what you feel is gaslighting. If I am guilty of this, I sincerely want to change it. Thanks.
You both need to back off.
Wow. If the mods think my comments are abusive, I trust they will delete them and lash me with a wet noodle. Until then, I have no plans to stop tailgating.
Actually, I’ve heard of pro-choice, which is people who think others should have the choice, and then there is pro-abortion, as in the doctor who commented that “Abortions were his passion” and other such craziness. I am very much pro-life but there is a question that has plagued my mind; who is pro-choice for people like my 2nd Grade teacher who had uterine cancer and had to get her uterus removed? What about her choice? What about all of the women who don’t get to have a choice? Is it really fair that they not only don’t get to have a choice but then they see all of these selfish women waving it around and rubbing it in their faces? As for me, I think that the ONLY reason I would ever have an abortion is if: The baby’s life was in danger, my life was in danger, AND I already had at least one child. And even then, I would ask for the unborn baby to be remove in as few pieces as possible and given a proper burial or given to me so that I may do so. Call me crazy but that’s what I would do. :)
I’ve noticed a disturbing pattern. When a pro-choicer is challenged to answer if a fetus or embryo is a human being, the responses are: silence or dogmatic evasiveness. Good grief, you have the internet USE IT:
http://www.ehd.org/
http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm
Or just pick up an embryology book and read the darn thing. If you are right, then what are you holding back for? I mean, it’s unbiased technological findings, what’s so scary about that????
For what it’s worth, neither you, me, or the 1/3 of MY generation that has been slaughtered in the name of “women’s reproductive rights”—which is highly contradictory since each of our bodies have been reproducing cells since day one of our conceptions, and therefore abortion violates these rights… not to mention all the little girls forced to end their own cellular reproduction—are more or less valuable than our mothers, and we are no one else’s “body” or “choice”, nor have we ever been our mothers’ property. If we were ever, at any point in our physical existence one of these things, then our liberty is not inalienable, but solely contingent upon the choice of another. Either “we hold these truths to be self-evident” or we don’t, now which is it going to be????
When you degrade the unborn, you degrade YOURSELF. As a former fetus, I OPPOSE abortion! :)
And for those who pride themselves on being respectful and supportive of women’s choices, but attack a grieving post-abortive woman—SHAME ON YOU. Hypocrites.
who is pro-choice for people like my 2nd Grade teacher who had uterine cancer and had to get her uterus removed? What about her choice?
What does having a hysterectomy for cancer have to do with abortion? Was your teacher pregnant at the time?