Severina is human, she is not a feminist thesis.
This allows us to have a connection with her.
~ Bioethics professor and documentary director Debora Deniz on the screening of her award-winning documentary Severina’s Story, a film about one Brazilian woman’s struggle with the Supreme Court of Brazil and her quest to abort her son who was diagnosed with anencephaly, The Crimson, November 9
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
People who believe in legal abortion rely to a great extent on women’s stories. They know a human life is in place early in the pregnancy. They know that arms and legs and a heart are formed 7-10 weeks into the pregnancy. But, inevitably, they have mothers, sisters, daughters and other female loved ones. They know girls and women can react with panic and terror to the possibility of carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth. That’s why stories of girls and women searching for illegal abortionists, risking rape and death to avoid having their bellies swell with pregnancy that is repulsive to them or girls and women committing suicide rather than endure the ordeal are inevitably emotionally moving.
People are utterly repulsed when they see tiny but fully formed bodies torn apart and dead.
If only there were a way to transplant the unborn into a willing womb!
If only there were a way to transplant into an artificial womb!
If only the only women getting pregnant were those who greeted the news with joy!
But in the world as it now is, people may see legality as the lesser of the evils because at least my mother, my sister, my wife, my daughter lives when the unborn is ripped out of her. If the pregnant girl or women dies, the unborn die automatically. This is not the best of all possible worlds, and legal abortion is popularly seen as the way to let the one live who can live if she is psychologically unable to carry to term.
I should add that a wise person once said that the two saddest words in the English language are “if only.”
No Denise.
Many of us DIDN’T KNOW the truth about fetal development. In our fear and desperation we believed the lies we were told at the mill. ”Just a bunch of cells.” “Just tissue.” “Just a blob.” If I would have known…..I wouldn’t have done it. THAT is the story of many post abortive women.
Sadly I know the truth now but it is too late for my child that died that day.
If only we could value each precious human life, if only we could embrace ourselves as cooperative, placental mammals that work together for a better life.
Nah, let’s just use technology to deny our humanity so we can pretend to be controlling our lives. Yep, that’s it.
It’s a good thing I believe in the power of prayer because we’re going to need a lot of it.
If only we could value each precious human life, if only we could embrace ourselves as cooperative, placental mammals that work together for a better life.
Nah, let’s just use technology to deny our humanity so we can pretend to be controlling our lives. Yep, that’s it.
No joke.
http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/
FYI: a baby with anencephalopathy, born AMA.
yeah anyone remember that abortion lady counseler who said she trained herself to cry with the girls at the drop of a hat? my new bff had an abortion at 18. she is now married with a couple of kids. she told me that the day of her abortion she told the lady “i feel bad about this. i feel im going to burn in hell.” the lady soothed her “oh no dear dont think that way.” she told me last week ” if there was 1 thing i could change i never would have had my abortion.”
thanks to all who prayed for my post abortive friend melissa (she found that lump) it was a cyst on her breast:) please keep me in prayers as well for all who will. satan is pestering me and although i rebuke him he wont flee. tnx.
Wow. The blog TheLastDemocrat posted the link to is amazing. This is from that blog:
“If your unborn baby has been diagnosed with anencephaly and you are in the process of deciding whether or not to carry your baby to term, you have come to the right place (and I have no doubt that God has led you here). Neither road is easy when you are told that your baby is not going to live, but (trust me…) carrying to term is the only one road worth taking. You have nothing to lose by seeing your baby’s life through, and believe me, there is so much to gain that you can’t even imagine at this point. You will never regret carrying your baby to term, no matter how much time you are blessed with. Even if it is only for a minute (or less than that), it will be worth it. The time you spend with your baby will prove to be priceless –time that you wouldn’t trade for anything.”
Lming, can you provide a link? I couldn’t find it with a quick Google. Sounds like a blog entry worth sharing.
Denise,
I second Carla’s comments, and I’ll go further. Those of us who becomes scientists and physicians spend at least 16 years of our adult lives in education and training. When we don our white lab coats and go into a clinical environment, that coat is supposed to communicate a great deal:
Education, expertise, cutting edge knowledge and technique, ethics, and integrity.
When the abortionist lies, she/he betrays everything that coat symbolizes. And women such as Carla are savaged along with their babies. Then you say this:
“That’s why stories of girls and women searching for illegal abortionists, risking rape and death to avoid having their bellies swell with pregnancy that is repulsive to them or girls and women committing suicide rather than endure the ordeal are inevitably emotionally moving.”
The swelling bellies in these young women contain a child, but the emotional reaction is not to the child itself, but to the growing effects of the unresolved trauma that gave rise to the pregnancy. Killing the baby removes the visible sign and symbol of the trauma, but only compounds that trauma in a thousand ways. In the end, the woman is left with the realization that she had her child killed, and all of the post-traumatic stress still remains, with added dimensions.
Women and men in white coats who perform abortions know that all too well, but don’t give a damn. For them, it’s simply an assembly line business, and the bills need to be paid.
their bellies swell with pregnancy
My belly was never “swollen.” My uterus grew as my children grew within it. When people describe pregnancy as “swelling” someone’s belly, it gives the connotation of some sort of malfunction or illness, which pregnancy is not.
What this woman was forced to go through is cruel and unjustified.
“Nah, let’s just use technology to deny our humanity” – cars? microwaves? dialysis machines? humidicribs? antibiotics? heart medication? sonograms?
Which one should we get rid of first?
“The swelling bellies in these young women contain a child, but the emotional reaction is not to the child itself”
Seriously?
as the silent no more women say “abortion didnt solve our problems it just created new ones.” what more can you say?
i watched clip after clip of snm women at a dc pro life event. one woman was quick and to her point. she rocked the white house down with her ending. she said “everyone told me to get over it and i did and thats why i am SILENT NO MORE
“The swelling bellies in these young women contain a child, but the emotional reaction is not to the child itself”
Seriously?
Yeah, Dr. Nadal. You’re way off base with this one. The whole reason Megan had her abortion is because she would rather have a dead baby than one who she might have to take care of that could possibly detract from her pursuit of higher education.
planned parenthood doesnt provide any type of support after abortion. their attitude is “get over it” and many women suffer in scilence. i used to look at the post abortive women myself and think ‘there is no reason to mention it. they got what they needed’ i figured they would just geton with life. what was there to cry about? but oh did women want to talk about it. i was about 24 years old when a woman named sandy and i were working together. we began talking about kids and she said ” i had 2 abortions when i was younger.” why the need to mention it i wondered. she had a grown son. why bring up these abortions to me at all? knowing now what i didnt know then sandy was looking for comfort. i wish i had the words to say. i didnt say much. i didnt understand. what ever happened to sandy? she died of breast cancer.
Only half true, xalisae. Being the child of a stressed young mother with troubles in her immediate family to worry about, who, without an education, would have a limited means of supporting herself–a mother who would inevitably drag you through her early-twenties maturation process, regardless of what she thought she sacrificed to bring you into the world–wasn’t a life that I wanted any child of mine to live.
Sorry, but you don’t get a prize for bearing children into a life of mediocrity.
i should point out that sandy was in her later 40s …..and now sandy i can tell others here about that day we talked. may you rest in peace until we meet again.
Reality,
So I guess you’re motto is “Keep the technology, get rid of the humanity”?
Not at all Hans, I don’t know why you would conclude such.
ninek said “Nah, let’s just use technology to deny our humanity so we can pretend to be controlling our lives” as an obviously sarcastic statement and I wondered which particular technologies ninek would like to see gone.
I think your question should be to ninek and read ‘keep the humanity, get rid of the technology?’
Laurie,
http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/2009/07/for-anyone-contemplating-whether-or-not.html
Megan says:
Sorry, but you don’t get a prize for bearing children into a life of mediocrity.
Oh yes, you do. An amazing prize. You get to love your child. Each and every life is an amazing, unique, irreplaceable blessing. You get smiles, laughs, hugs, kisses, tears, temper tantrums, giggles, jokes, secrets, play, and so much more. If you’re willing to give the total gift of yourself to your children, there’s no such thing as mediocrity. No such thing Megan. Love conquers all. I could weep for what you’ve lost. I’m so, so sorry.
now i am 42 years old. i self educated via the internet on abortion. abortion causes breast cancer a weak cervix emotional problems etc. every story every woman every pro abort. god allowed me to come across you and chose me to fight in this fight.
Better off dead right, Megan?
You and I didn’t think we could do it. Didn’t think we had it in us to be the kind of mothers we should be. But we could have done it, Megan. With help and support and encouragement. We are stronger than we think!!! We believed the lie that we had to kill to succeed in life. Sorry. “Terminate a pregnancy. Gently empty the uterine contents. Scrape some cells.”
Abort or face a life of misery right? Abort or ruin your life. Abort or never get married. Abort or never get an education. Abort or never have a career. Abort or never have a dream life. We bought it. You and I.
And yet we are both mothers. The single act of abortion remains. Your child died. My child died.
I am so very sorry too.
Praying for you. I am. Praying for the day when you face the truth of aborting your child and find your way to abortion recovery. There is healing and hope for you, Megan.
The answer to a crisis pregnancy is to eliminate the crisis, not the child.
Jeannie W. French
Founder, National Women’s Coalition for Life
A crisis is temporary. Abortion is forever.
Wow, Megan:
“Sorry, but you don’t get a prize for bearing children into a life of mediocrity.”
Your education did nothing for you, even post-slaughter. Science devoid of love is a sterile and hostile neighborhood. You missed it all, Megan. You missed the point entirely.
It isn’t about diplomas or paychecks, letters after your name, or academic prestige. Those things don’t matter when the one in possession of them has a cold and barren heart.
I went through the last five years of grad school with a profoundly autistic son, and two younger daughters. Joseph’s autism didn’t hold me back. It made me see science and the world through entirely different eyes.
You speak of mediocrity as the other half of the false dichotomy. Plenty of single women go through college and grad school with children in tow. Many schools provide free or low-cost child care, but you chose death for your baby because you were too blind to see the opportunities before you, or your own excellence.
You are a bright, even brilliant woman, Megan. We should have more like you. One of the many tragedies is that you couldn’t see in yourself what is so evident to me. Had you seen your capabilities, you never would have embraced death as your only or best option.
yeah we sure do live in a society that loves to scream “you need college to be someone.” i have friends who indeed killed their children because had they not they would have had to drop out of college. a degree is a peice of paper which can be burned with a lighter. getting an education is fine but you dont kill someone to get it. like dr nadal stated plenty of women go to college with kids in tow. its called hire a babysitter! my friend went back to college for her bsn and she works full time and overtime. she has 5 kids and 4 step kids. she may only take 1 course at a time. and if you value education and money over everything there are ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies. throw yourself into your studies and forget about sex until youre done. all it takes is self control. i have gone through long periods of time without sex. it is possible.
oops should say peice of paper…… and im no prude by a long shot but i am living proof that you wont drop dead over a lack of sex. go read a good book or walk in the park.
HA! Megan, you’d be laughable if you weren’t so sad. I actually went back over my credits the other day, and as it turns out, I’m only a semester shy of my associates in gen. ed., which is pretty much half my bachelors. I’m moving back down here with my fiance, who will be my husband next year by the time we move. He’s an accomplished chef who holds 2 degrees himself, and who loves and respects me, and my children who he will soon be proud to call his step-children. So, I”ll be able to finish my schooling, hopefully get into the medical science program for becoming an ultrasound tech within the next couple years, and I don’t even need or want an award or medal, because the love of my children is greater than any piece of paper that I can get from some school. You could have had the love of your child along with your pieces of paper, too.
I’m pretty proud of my children, too. I’m glad they’re with me. I’ve never heard a 3 year old say things like, “Are you quite done?”, and my daughter is in 3rd grade, but has a reading level of almost 8th and apparently a maturity level far greater than yours, so she’s ready to start the Lord of the Rings trilogy. I can’t wait to help her through it! It’s one of my favorites.
And as far as “dragging (someone) through (her) early twenties maturation process”, do you anticipate completely ceasing to grow and mature as a human being once you hit 25 years old, Megan? 30? Everyone is constantly growing, maturing, and changing, and to think that someone (your child) is better off dead than to grow with you and help you grow through your “maturation process” is…well…it sounds like you’re a very insecure person, I suppose. Do you really think you’re that terrible, that your own child is better off dead-being killed at your behest-than to travel with you on this road of life?
“A life of mediocrity”?! HAR! Oh, so it’s not that you’re insecure or you feel you’re inadequate, you’re just a horribly spoiled brat, and you’d rather kill your kid than have anything less than the “perfect” life with the well-groomed boy and girl behind the white picket fence. I hate to break this to you as well, but houses go into foreclosure. People lose their jobs. Kids are ALWAYS different than expectations and do not respond well to grooming attempts. What’s going to happen to your precious “chosen ones” when they fail to live up to expectations, or when the dream you’re chasing fails to go according to plan? What are you going to do with them then? Start lobbying for legalizing 57th trimester abortion? What people wont do in the name of egotistical snobbishness. I swear. Seriously. Out of all of the reasons I’ve heard given for killing one’s child in an abortion, it seems like, “I’m a self-centered snob.” is the most frequently heard. How sad.
I sincerely hope you’re still in the midst of your “early twenties maturation process” rather than the end. And I hope the truth doesn’t smack you in the face too terribly hard once you actually DO mature.
love and respect yourself. dont just be willing to sell yourself short and have cheap sex. men who have god first in their lives wouldnt pressure women into sex. same for women. have respect for yourself or nobody else will. and a man without god is moving on to the next challenge. they really dont want easy.~not for anything long term anyway.
Reality,
I don’t think ninek was referring to any or all technology. She doesn’t strike me as a troglodyte! :) No, I think she was specifically discussing abortion technology. Even more specifically, medical technology used for “search and destroy” of so-called “defectives”.
That is what I was calling “getting rid of humanity” in both the aborter and the abortee!
well then megan i guess youre saying that you slept with a man who was so awful and he was such a schlub that he couldnt provide for you and that baby. yet he was good enough for you to sleep with at least once. wow. you must not really get to know your lovers before you bed down with them thats irresponsible and reckless.
megan says “selfish….yes i am” well then you should meet my equally selfish sister in law who loves work and money. a few abortions to her were in her words “for the best” she is now 40 years old and id bet my life that if she and her husband got pregnant again shed abort again
Please understand that Megan only comes here to punish herself. What is said about her confirms what she feels about herself.
And there is a way out of that behavior.
Been there. Done that.
is debbie (my sis in law) living in poverty? lol. her home is paid for. she and her husband own their vehicles. shes got 80 thousand in the bank and lives in fear of going broke. her little weenie dog is “so difficult” to care for. are you kidding me? we had a huge fight a few months ago and we dont speak which is just fine with me. sorry but im tired of talking about the almighty buck with her all the time and she irks me because she killed her children and has often remarked “im so glad ron and i dont have kids.” we can go on trips to dinner or the movies when we want.” oh and i forgot about the camper they own by the lake. ronny would have made a great dad. he loves playing with my son. good luck deb. youre not getting any younger. i hope your health doesnt fail. if you ever ended up in a nursing home then everything youve worked for is gone. your college degree will end up in a landfill and nobody will ever visit you.
well carla i am praying for megan too. i suppose she could be over at pandagon. megan the truth is here. stay here. my mothers christian friend helped me to turn around and she wasnt always nice about it. but i love her to death to this day! she lives in florida or id go see her as often as i could. she set me straight on fornication and adultry. oh making a man wait for sex is so old fashioned i thought. maybe but i was killing my soul through my sexual sins and the pattern kept repeating. i was won by love but it was tough love that worked for me.
awwww heck debbie is 42 so correction. we are the same age. anyway a lot of people think that they will make awful parents if their kids dont have cell phones i pods their own computers top of the line clothes……hogwash. all they need are the basics. i know a family and all 4 kids have their own computers including the parents. when we were young we were content to go play in our yard. we would ride our bikes. you dont need to go overboard and buy a kid everything just because you believe it will make you a better parent.
Megan will be won by love.
@carla….i think so too.
Megan, stay with us. I think of you often.
where is his man? as he once posted to a pro abort….its not all your fault. we kicked god out of the schools and the older liberals and hollyweirdos have twisted our minds. ive bought the lie too. if it feels good do it! birth control and sex with multiple partners destroyed my soul. i was bitter and i had no idea why. i guess you could have called me a liberal. i jumped into bed with married men and i justified it by saying “they are the ones who are married. not me. lol insane i was! call me a sl*t and homewrecker back then? didnt phase me. did the shoe fit at the time? sure. just like you are what you eat. i was wrong wrong wrong! i am now trying to help a married friend of mine get out of an affair shes been having with a married man. shes quite a bit older than me but she said “im content with just having the sex and attention.” god can use us and the mistakes weve made to help others.
i sure dont mind telling you guys that im a far far cry from perfect. im a work in progress. i became very angry with god for a while. i didnt care about right or wrong. i questioned gods existance. i was on a path of self destruction. if anyone wants to comment on my past mistakes then please do so. i will agree with you on all points.
i think thats why a lot of people hate christians. they believe that we think we are perfect. no no no! god is so good that he can take the worst of us and bring us back to him. im always on guard because satan is always lurking. he is here to rob kill steal destroy.
see megan ive just told you my dirty secrets. i got on my knees and cried and repented. the first step is to admit you were wrong. i really liked erin who used to blog here. she was a post abortive mother who was going to nursing school. shes on my heart. im hoping that becoming a nurse will help her learn to respect life.
* sound of crickets*
“The answer to a crisis pregnancy is to eliminate the crisis, not the child.”
Truly quotable Carla, nicely said.
hi eric. i agree well said carla:)
You do know I didn’t write that, right? :)
Wish I would have.
You know what your problem is, Carla? You’re too honest.
My ex-husband actually said that to me during our separation (except he didn’t call me Carla).
I told him that maybe next round he would be blessed with a dishonest wife.
His second wife moved out recently. I think they were too honest with each other. (:
take scott peterson for an example. i read the book about him. laci had a condition and doctors told her she couldnt get pregnant. scott thought great! i dont want kids. when laci became pregnant she was thrilled ! scott was not and he was in a crisis. oh no not a kid! he figured hed eliminate the crisis and killed them both. as lacis mom said “divorce is an option. not murder”!!!!! and scott sits on death row in a tiny cell waiting for his date with death. what a resolution.
scott had a boat a home a good job cars but oh no he couldnt handle losing one thing. no way was he going to have just one kid cramp his style and he wasnt going to give that selfish laci and connor anything. sarcasm his college gvirlfriend had an abortion at the urging of scotts mother but laci was not not not aborting. scott wanted to hi tail it around town and sleep with amber frey. hed told amber his wife had died of cancer. this was after shed confronted him about being married. then he murdered laci and connor. really scott? you couldnt just accept one baby? you couldnt pay some child support and give laci one of your cars? was the alternative really better? you lost everything. you could have had something.
For Heather: I’ve got an article on the Scott Peterson case at http://www.crimemagazine.com
I heart honesty. Especially brutal honesty. :)
‘a mother who would inevitably drag you through her early-twenties maturation process, regardless of what she thought she sacrificed to bring you into the world–wasn’t a life that I wanted any child of mine to live.’
This comment stood out for me because I DID drag my son through the twenties maturation process. College took me a bit longer than normal but I graduated with honors. And my son is now 16, and I couldn’t ask for a better boy. My husband adopted him when he was 6. He is now the BEST big brother to his little siblings (and even provides babysitting services!). He has a great group of friends, an amazing creative streak, and a wicked sense of humor. I was driving his friends home last night and the singing and the laughter going on the car made me feel like I was in Glee episode.
Without my son, I would never have experienced that moment nor a thousand others equally precious to me.
ooooo denise *rubs hands together* i love my true crime books. i have tons of em. ive read scott petersons sisters book. lacis mothers book and amber freys book. but what do i click on with your site to get to the scott link?
ABsitively, My mom drug me through her early-maturation process and I drug my first-born through mine.
Had I aborted him and gave birth to my first child in my 30s, I would have had to drag that child through my maturation process.
Actually, my firstborn sped up my maturation process. He’s taught me much more than vice-versa.
I wouldn’t trade my mediocre life w/ a husband and children, 1 son w/ autism, for anything.
I’m sorry, but abortion advocates are positively dense. Instead of seeing the point: we function just fine without killing our children, they would rather believe I’m anti-technology. Denise thinks we can solve abortion by removing the delicate embryo from one mother and placing it in the uterus of another woman. This is totally dehumanizing, much like all the other dehumanizing things we are doing to our reproductive organs.
But abortion fans, you just keep being dense. Your industry was never based on science, biology, or intelligence.
Thank you, ninek. The only way we are going to “solve” abortion is when people realize that the preborn child is a life worthy of protection.
Carla, I saw the video of your story and was absolutely moved. Actually, you kind of remind me of my mom a little (the way you speak and things). Plus, you have the same name. :)
For Heather: It’s right here http://www.crimemagazine.com/scott-peterson-pregnant-wife-killer
well now that all you guys mention it….my turn. there have been several times after id hit 18 that id ask my mom for money. i dont have to pay her back cuz im her daughter so she doesnt care. so i guess (though im glad to be informed) my mom is still dragging me through my 40s and i guess she dragged me through my thirties and 20s but gee she nor i ever saw it that way. even if my mom had hated me there is no way id rather be dead. and heaven forbid that one persson help their adult child out of kindness when they fall. i guess id better call my brother and tell him that weve just been being dragged by mom all these years.
and perhaps i will call my 20 and 19 year old today and let them know that im sorry ive had to drag you through life. perhaps i will inform my friends who are mothers how they feel about being dragged. i would only expect a collective huh?????
sorry upper post should read that i will call my girlfriends today (all mommies) and ask hows it been dragging your kids through life?
Thank you, Kate!!
It means a lot to me that you watched. :)
Denise,
Perhaps you forget that there are several folks on this blog that have adopted or are adopted. Your continuous ranting will be deleted. I suggest you get your own blog and go to town. You have stated that you have never been pregnant nor put a baby up for adoption. So “milk engorged breasts” and “bellies swelling with pregnancy” will go bye bye.
Haven’t we talked about this before??!!!
and for many of you pro aborts who only have education on their minds just know this….your diploma or degree doesnt define you. your morals do. planned parenthood calls colleges ” goldmines” how does that make you feel as a woman? your uterus is a goldmine to them. i would feel degraded.
Carla says:
November 13, 2011 at 9:13 am
Denise,Perhaps you forget that there are several folks on this blog that have adopted or are adopted. Your continuous ranting will be deleted. I suggest you get your own blog and go to town. You have stated that you have never been pregnant nor put a baby up for adoption. So “milk engorged breasts” and “bellies swelling with pregnancy” will go bye bye.
Haven’t we talked about this before??!!!
(Denise) Are we not allowed to even discuss the pros and cons of adoption? I didn’t say what the cons are but just mentioned that they exist. Carla, must we pretend that adoption is somehow perfect?
I’ve read many times of women who gave babies up for adoption suffering psychologically. One signed her letter “Empty Arms.”
If we can’t talk about the whole picture, should the mention of adoption in ANY CONTEXT be banned?
After all, it’s just lying if you ONLY mention good things.
The only alternatives discussed should be abortion or having AND raising the baby.
How about my idea of birthmother as babysitter and nanny? Surely that’s a positive.
We have all already heard your con list, Denise. Over and over and over again.
There is no “discussion” to be had. Honestly. Please seek ANTI ADOPTION groups. They are out there.
Please cut and paste where anyone here has stated that adoption is perfect.
You are rapidly approaching troll status as all you have stated are your own fear induced scenarios.
Oh and I am so happy to report that I am walking my 3rd pregnant mother through the adoption process. They chose life and would like to bless a family with a baby!! The horror.
hi denise. ive seen you mention adoption often. i know adopted people and they dont seem to be in any type of trauma to me. but denise we dont live in a perfect world so i dont doubt youve heard negative stories. many people give birth and abuse their children. but the root of the evil came on the day we legalized abortion on demand. unless we turn it back then you can bet that everything is only going to get worse. id rather see an adopted child then one shredded to peices.
Abortion or having and raising the baby??
THOSE are the only two choices you would like to see?
Good luck with that. And good luck selling your other ideas of birth mothers as nannies, or babysitters or transplanting embryos into other wombs………..etc. etc. etc.
heather says:
November 13, 2011 at 10:19 am
hi denise. ive seen you mention adoption often. i know adopted people and they dont seem to be in any type of trauma to me. but denise we dont live in a perfect world so i dont doubt youve heard negative stories.
(Denise) It’s not a matter of “negative stories” but of strong statistical links. Write to me at Janatrude@aol.com and I’ll show you where to find those links.
Carla says:
November 13, 2011 at 10:43 am
Abortion or having and raising the baby??
THOSE are the only two choices you would like to see?
(Denise) How about ONE? Having and raising the baby — IF the woman gets pregnant. Working hard to ensure that ONLY those prepared to raise adequately are impregnated.
@ denise you asked carla ……should we somehow pretend that adoption is perfect? denise is anything perfect? life is full of flaws. people have character defects. nothing is perfect. sometimes adoption really is for the best. i know adopted people. i think we all do but i have never met one who wanted to die because of it. denise get off that fence and come on over here full time cuz i like ya!!!!! you can be a good voice for the unborn but lay off the adoption bashing a bit will ya?
Denise: “Working hard to ensure that ONLY those prepared to raise adequately are impregnated.”
Yeah, good luck with that one.
denise id be happy to take a look but my adopted girlfriend who is a nurse like me loves her parents. she is married and loves her husband and her life. denise if we get rid of the adoption option or safe haven then abortions will increase and you will have more dead children down drains in landfills or wherever. but dead is dead denise. whats wrong with a family who wants to give love?
i could wake up every day and hope for a perfect day. hahahaha yep. the bills will still come in the mail the car might get a flat. the baby might require 2 baths if he messes himself too bad. someone will call and pester me. my husband will get on my nerves.the oven might explode. someonemight die who is close to me. you dont know what the day will bring. no such thing as perfect in this world.
heather says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:09 am
denise id be happy to take a look but my adopted girlfriend who is a nurse like me loves her parents. she is married and loves her husband and her life. denise if we get rid of the adoption option or safe haven then abortions will increase and you will have more dead children down drains in landfills or wherever. but dead is dead denise. whats wrong with a family who wants to give love?
(Denise) Carla doesn’t allow me to specify so email me and I’ll tell you about the bad connected with adoption.
heather says:
November 13, 2011 at 10:56 am
@ denise you asked carla ……should we somehow pretend that adoption is perfect? denise is anything perfect? life is full of flaws. people have character defects. nothing is perfect. sometimes adoption really is for the best. i know adopted people. i think we all do but i have never met one who wanted to die because of it. denise get off that fence and come on over here full time cuz i like ya!!!!! you can be a good voice for the unborn but lay off the adoption bashing a bit will ya?
(Denise) Again, it’s not a matter of imperfection but of strong statistical connections.
“medical technology used for “search and destroy” of so-called “defectives”.” – so what you are saying Hans, is that technology shouldn’t be used to identify problems such as that which Severina faced because she may wish to abort yet we should force it on women who wish to abort in the hope that they will be guilt-tripped into not aborting.
Is that it?
“The answer to a crisis pregnancy is to eliminate the crisis, not the child.” – the pregnancy is the crisis, eliminate the pregnancy and the crisis is gone.
Reality,
You are wrong.
The crisis is all of the scenarios a woman paints in her head out of fear, shock, anger, disbelief. How will I make it? What about college? How will I tell my parents? What about my career? What about adoption? How can I do this alone?
Once those questions are answered…….and there are answers a woman can and will carry a pregnancy through with help.
A child is not a crisis. My crisis continued after my baby was dead by abortion.
Carla, a woman who has no plans to have a child, at least at the current time, may not wish to be pregnant, proceed with a pregnancy or undertake all that goes with a pregnancy. You don’t have answers for all her questions.
For you, having had an abortion makes you sad. That is genuinely sad.
For the majority, abortion doesn’t have that impact.
Everyone has made choices that make them sad when they think back on them.
Just because a choice we’ve made has caused us sadness doesn’t mean that when others make the same choice it will make them sad.
Some people are cold hearted murderers. So?
My abortion doesn’t make me “sad.” Like I wish my favorite sweater hadn’t shrunk. Abortion killed my child. It devastated me to the point of suicide.
Majority, most, some, all. That is all you have, dude.
Do not tell me what my abortion did to me. I will tell you.
I DO have the answers to all of those questions!! I DO!! How? Because I get the privilege of walking pregnant young ladies through their pregnancies!!
Can I still go to college? YES!
Can I get a job? YES!
Will you help me get a job? YES!
Can I put my baby up for adoption? YES!
Will you help me find a place to live? YES!
Will you help me get prenatal care? YES!
Is that my baby on the ultrasound? YES!
Is that the heartbeat? YES!
Is it a boy? YES!
Will you come with me when I tell my parents? YES!
Will you help me? YES!
Will you be there for me? YES!
Will you help me after the baby is born and I keep her? YES!
Will you help me take parenting classes? YES!
Will you help me find a car? YES!
Will someone want to marry me with a baby? YES!
Will I be able to graduate high school? YES!
Can I get free clothes, diapers, a crib, a stroller, formula etc. etc? YES!
Will you help me find a counselor? YES!
I do have all of the answers. It is called reassurance. Once all of the questions have been answered, once the support system is in place the crisis doesn’t seem like a crisis.
“Majority, most, some, all. That is all you have, dude.” – that’s all I need. Most women don’t have problems with having had an abortion, you have. Most people don’t have a problem with drinking alcohol, some do.
“Do not tell me what my abortion did to me. I will tell you.” – am I wrong in stating that sadness is one of the things your abortion caused you? Every negative emotion and feeling except sadness?
You claim to have answers to all the questions yet you haven’t asked all the questions and some you haven’t asked in full. And not all of your answers may be adequate or correct for the person concerned.
This is the most bizarre and ineffective pro-choice documentary yet. To me, this documentary emphasizes why abortion needs to be made illegal.
Really, what was Severina thinking?
She denied that her baby was worthy of love, life and a birth.
If the baby was going to die and was bad as they say, why not show the baby some compassion and still give birth? Really this is true spun poorly by abortion advocates. Severina had other reasons for wanting this abortion and I suspect they were financial.
Reality, get real..stop talking with such hot air. You are going to float away soon.
How many post-abortive women have you ever talked to?
I suspect zero!!
I also suspect you are one of those selfish dudes who drove his girlfriend to a clinic only to never speak to her again after she aborted your child.
How is your conscience Reality?
Reality, before you speak on the topic of abortion you need to prove that you are not some sexual pervert who only wants abortion legal so that he can avoid the responsibility of having a meaningful relationship prior to having sexual relations with a woman!!
The fetus wasn’t capable of ‘life’ Tyler, why was it ‘worthy’ of birth? Unfortunately, it’s birth was it’s death and it was known that this would be the case well in advance.
Why not show the woman some compassion? Forced to carry a completely unviable fetus to term! On what grounds?
Another example of fetus first, woman nowhere?
Reality, is Severina still alive?
“I suspect zero!! ” – completely wrong Tyler.
“I also suspect you are one of those selfish dudes who drove his girlfriend to a clinic only to never speak to her again after she aborted your child. ” – even more wrong Tyler.
“How is your conscience Reality” – clear and healthy, thanks for asking.
“you need to prove that you are not some sexual pervert who only wants abortion legal so that he can avoid the responsibility of having a meaningful relationship prior to having sexual relations with a woman!!” – why? I don’t actually need to prove anything to you.
Not that I can prove it to you anyway, but I’m not a sexual pervert. I don’t think the scenario you outline indicates ‘pervert’ anyway. Disfunctional maybe, but I find ‘pervert’ an odd choice of word.
I’ve never been a party to the scenario you describe, or anything like it. I’ve actually said ‘no’ to women because I didn’t feel there was a meaningful relationship afoot. But that’s just me.
Reality, I like this video. The baby got a proper memorial and the Parents were able to mourn their child. Now that she gave birth naturally she will not have nagging questions as to whether she did the right thing. The system did not compound her suffering by turning her into a murderer. I am positive that this couple does not truly understand what an abortion is or how it is done. I question you Reality. I am not sure if you understand or know what an abortion truly is.
Reality, your style of compassion is very short-sighted.
“The baby got a proper memorial and the Parents were able to mourn their child.” – they could have done exactly the same thing when the fetus was a few months through gestation, the same as people who have miscarriages can.
“Now that she gave birth naturally she will not have nagging questions as to whether she did the right thing.” – says who? She may still think an earlier termination would have been the ‘right thing’.
“The system did not compound her suffering by turning her into a murderer.” – the system compounded her suffering by forcing her to continue with a pointless and unwanted pregnancy. And she would not have been a ‘murderer’.
“I am positive that this couple does not truly understand what an abortion is or how it is done.” – I don’t. I’m positive they don’t understand why she was forced to continue an unviable pregnancy.
“I question you Reality. I am not sure if you understand or know what an abortion truly is.” – I’m not sure if you understand the cruelty of forcing someone to go through what this lady went through.
“Reality, your style of compassion is very short-sighted” – I disagree, I think it’s quite far-sighted.I’m far from young and I’ve experienced a lot of life and death in all their guises. This is part of what informs me.
Hi Tyler! I like ya already!
Reality,
Killing your own child through abortion and having a drinking problem? Hmmmm. Not a good comparison.
You are wrong in assuming any feeling about any post abortive woman. Here’s some advice. Let us tell you. Beyond sadness for me. Beyond sadness and so much more. I don’t have the time to write out every feeling I have experienced in the 21 years since my abortion. You’ll just have to trust me. :)
I walk women through crisis pregnancies. It is what I do. I also help women struggling after their abortions. It is what I do.
The fears are the same. The questions are the same. The help and hope and reassurance offered is always there.
Got hope, Reality?
What is not to get about this story??
They did not kill their child before he/she died naturally. They can mourn without the added burden of knowing they were responsible for their child’s death.
I know you won’t get my explanation either but I tried.
“You are wrong in assuming any feeling about any post abortive woman.” yet “Let us tell you”.
Stop assuming everyone else will have the same experience as you.
“The fears are the same. The questions are the same. The help and hope and reassurance offered is always there.” – you still didn’t ask all the questions which can emerge, nor all the aspects of the ones you did. And your answers aren’t always satisfactory or suitable.
I always have hope Carla.
“They can mourn without the added burden of knowing they were responsible for their child’s death” – they wouldn’t have been ‘responsible’ for it’s death at any stage, that was pre-determined.
Reality, please tell me the various abortion procedures you know about and how they are performed. Please tell me the risks of abortion as you understand them. Please compare the risks of abortion to the risks of natural child birth.
Please tell me one medical advantage to Severina, the Mother, in having an abortion? (I said medical, not pop-psychology) Please identify the abortion procedure you would have advocated for Severina.
Is that what I am doing, Reality? Assuming everyone else has the same experience as I do? Ask us. Pretty simple, really. Even though you don’t believe a child dies in an abortion…….a child dies in an abortion and a mother(cause she already is a mother whether you believe that or not)goes through pretty much the same process. We just do. There is relief. There is denial. Where some women stay the rest of their lives. There is anger, depression, grief and on and on it goes. Until one day a woman reaches out for help and I am there. :)
I have met HUNDREDS of post abortive women. They are my friends. I have filmed the show Faces of Abortion. I am in the documentary Life After Abortion. I speak with Silent No More(We just reached 10,000 folks btw)
It is YOU that has the hardest time with abortion regret. Not me. I am healing.
When a child is killed by abortion you do realize that their little life is ended right? A shot through the heart, a vacuum suction, tearing their extremities off one by one and then delivering the body of the child. I mean a child with anencephaly can be delivered naturally after pregnancy has progressed and live for a time and die on their own. Their breathing slows and stops. Their heart stops beating on its own. You do understand natural death right?
I hate to talk to you like you are a child but um…….you don’t seem to get what “natural death” means. Ok. Let’s try this. Suppose you had cancer and were going to die. Instead of letting nature take its course I hit you in the head with a hammer until you die. See any difference there?
I gotta go. Always an adventure talking with you Reality. Truly.
Carla, thank-you for the support. Keep up the good work. You are an inspiration. I really valued your posts too. Carla, I truly think most abortion advocates are uneducated about the procedure itself. I think we in the Pro-Life need to start treating them like little children. They appear to naively think an abortion makes a woman “unpregnant.”
Reality, your first response to my question as to whether you are a sexual pervert who advocates for abortion because he wants to use women as a sexual object without the chance a child will result was: ”Why?”
If you were moral person you would have implicitly known the answer to that question. Since you didn’t I can only assume you use women for your sexual enjoyment.
I will now provide you with some reasons why you, and any person, should identify their motivations for supporting abortion.
1) abortion is serious – it causes the death of a human being;
2) abortion subjects women to surgery;
3) abortion was supposed to liberate women not to exploit them sexually;
4) abortion costs money;
5) abortion costs time;
6) abortions are irreversible;
7) abortion hurts the economy; etc…..
had to watch the steven king movie marathon today. but anyway back to my tiny keyboard. well i have met women who have had multiple abortions and say they dont care……but take my sister in law. shes had at least 2. that i do know. anyway she is obese and a pot head. whats eating her? why do you smoke so much weed? maybe deep down she has pain? i couldnt telll you but im betting there is a link.
“The baby got a proper memorial and the Parents were able to mourn their child.” – they could have done exactly the same thing when the fetus was a few months through gestation, the same as people who have miscarriages can.”
No, Reality. Not “exactly”. I have never mourned a child I intentionally killed for whatever reason, but I have mourned four who were taken without my consent and I am quite certain that it was very very different from mourning an abortion. Before I knew for sure I was not the cause of my child’s death, the fear of being at fault was so horrible and unthinkable I had to avoid it or die. Do you know what it’s like to sit on that razors edge? Do you have any idea?? To have known for certain, without doubt, that I CHOSE her death, walked into a “clinic” for the purpose of her death, and PAID someone to rip her still living body to shreds…… no, the mourning process would have been far different. No where near “exactly the same thing”. No.
Do not, I repeat DO NOT, confuse abortion with miscarriage. One is intentional, the other spontaneous. The mourning process is very very different.
tyler hi there……you forgot abortion causes breast cancer. carry on
when i was involved in sexual sin i was a drunk and a chain smoker. i had to be to live with myself. oh my reality all this time i thought you were a woman. casual sex can be very inviting but look at the messes. i have a homosexual friend with hiv i know plenty of women who contracted venereal diseases plenty more who have had abortions. do not let satan fool you again and again.
Reality, I will make one other observation about your support for abortion: it is discriminatory, it is ageist.
Reality, I thought you were more compassionate than this!!! Why don’t you want to help the baby as well as the Mother?
@ carla….if youre not gone yet ….where can you find those videos you did? my husband brought one home for me called. “freedom to kill” and jill popped up!!!!! i told my husband “omg theres jill”!!!!! i told him about the aborted babies at christ hospital and jill. he cant listen too much though. it makes him sick!
Yes, there is usually relief Carla. As for the rest of what you claim, well for some, but not the majority.
“I have met HUNDREDS of post abortive women.” – but not the ones who happily get on with their lives. Remind me, how many abortions take place each year?
“It is YOU that has the hardest time with abortion regret” – really, how do you reach that conclusion?
“You do understand natural death right?” – I understand death in many forms.
Always ‘interesting’ talking with you Carla.
“Now that she gave birth naturally she will not have nagging questions as to whether she did the right thing.”
Thanks for letting her know that!
“We just do. There is relief. There is denial. Where some women stay the rest of their lives.”
It’s a simple rhetorical trick to claim that a group of people is suffering false consciousness. The claim can’t be refuted. You don’t agree with me?? You’re in denial!
Carla, I like you, I really do. But I’ve always been a heartless pro-choicer. This is a great website for figuring out what tricks pro-lifers are up to. Restrictive laws creep up in the darndest ways, don’t they? And if I really wanted to punish myself, I’d actually grade the papers I’m supposed to grade instead of sparring with you fine folks. :)
Megan, how many abortions have you had?
Megan: “I’d actually grade the papers I’m supposed to grade instead of sparring with you fine folks.”
She’s a teacher. Wonderful. I couldn’t care less if you were a murderer. I am much more worried about your mind than your soul. Poor kids.
Reality, no offense but you are beginning to sound like a fop.
Do you know anything about the abortion procedure itself? If so, please tell us what you know.
17.
well then i guess its fair play to say that ohio just put heartless serial killer anthony sowell. i could drive to the empty house that still stands where he killed 11 women or more. he laughed in court when they told him when hed have his last date…..with DEATH!!!!!
“She’s a teacher.”
Hmm, I’d have the courtesy to address even a murderer directly, Oliver.
should say heartless serial killer was put away * i have driven past his house a few times on my way to work.*
Megan,
I can’t speak for Carla but I think she may have had you in mind when she spoke of some post-abortive women living in denial.
However, I don’t think you have had one abortion. I think you are a liar.
Ok, Tyler.
Tyler the inquisitor.
“please tell me the various abortion procedures you know about and how they are performed.” – do your own homework. Apart from numerous other sources, this site has been very explicit in the various methodologies used.
“Please tell me the risks of abortion as you understand them.” – very low. It has not been proven to cause breast cancer and no studies show any actual direct cause in regards to higher rates of mental illness, drug abuse and suicide.
“Please compare the risks of abortion to the risks of natural child birth.” – in regards to the death of women, far less than childbirth, by about a factor of nine,
“Please tell me one medical advantage to Severina, the Mother, in having an abortion?” – the smaller the fetus the less physical strain. Her breasts wouldn’t be producing milk for no-one. You saw what she went through in the film.
What was the medical advantage of not having an abortion? (I said medical, not pop-psychology)
“Please identify the abortion procedure you would have advocated for Severina” – I would have let the appropriately qualified persons decide the best methodology.
“They appear to naively think an abortion makes a woman “unpregnant.” – really, what does it leave her then? Is a post-birth mother still “pregnant”?
“If you were moral person you would have implicitly known the answer to that question.” – I asked why I needed to prove it to you.
“Since you didn’t I can only assume you use women for your sexual enjoyment” – I answered the question anyway, or didn’t you bother to read “I’ve never been a party to the scenario you describe, or anything like it. I’ve actually said ‘no’ to women because I didn’t feel there was a meaningful relationship afoot. But that’s just me.”?
1) abortion is serious – it causes the death of a human being; – but not a person. And it can save womens’ lives.
2) abortion subjects women to surgery; – so does childbirth
3) abortion was supposed to liberate women not to exploit them sexually; – yes, and it does liberate them, it is forcing pregnancy on women that is sexual exploitation
4) abortion costs money; – so does childbirth
5) abortion costs time; – so does childbirth
6) abortions are irreversible; – that’s the whole point
7) abortion hurts the economy; etc…. – wrong
and when they give anthony sowell the lethal needle …..i dont give a crud. same with peterson. im just a cold hearted death penalty type for people who have no remorse.
Reality,
I’m for medical techology identifying problems. But for “search and rescue” not “search and destroy”. How can prospective aborters be “guilt-tripped” with more information to make their decision?
Megan,
We pro-lifers aren’t up to any tricks. We couldn’t be any clearer. Don’t kill innocent lives, no matter how young.
“We pro-lifers aren’t up to any tricks. We couldn’t be any clearer. Don’ kill innocent lives, no matter how young.”
Just out of curiosity: does somebody’s “guilt” make them less human?
Reality, why do you continually refuse to identify and describe abortion procedures?
Are you hiding something? Have you not done your homework? Do the procedures make you uncomfortable?
How many aborted babies are female?
Do you support aborting babies based on gender?
Megan,
I think you mis-worded that. If anything, it makes them more worthy of protection.
Thanks Hans. Rephrased!
According to Reality the advantages of abortion for Severina would be:
“the smaller the fetus the less physical strain.” - any risks of infections when an abortion is performed?
“Her breasts wouldn’t be producing milk for no-one.” – Are you sure about this point?
“You saw what she went through in the film.” - I must have missed something, please elaborate, what did she go through?
“you are beginning to sound like a fop” – you might want to climb down off your rocking horse before you fall and hurt yourself there little soldier.
“why do you continually refuse to identify and describe abortion procedures?” – because I can’t be bothered typing reams simply for your amusement. I’ve been on this site and many others for long enough to know the various procedures. And I often I check the facts presented here against real medical sites.
“Are you hiding something? Have you not done your homework? Do the procedures make you uncomfortable?” – no, no and no. Why, got any conspiracy theories roaming around in your mind? Does a hip replacement procedure make you uncomfortable?
“How many aborted babies are female?” – the US, Europe, China or the whole planet? Try google.
“Do you support aborting babies based on gender” – no I don’t.
“any risks of infections when an abortion is performed?” – there are risks of infection with any procedure, including birth, particularly C sections. Even a colonoscopy!
“Are you sure about this point?” – no, I’ll happily admit I’m not totally across this field. Can you show me that women generally lactate at three months gestation?
“I must have missed something,” – then watch it again. I’m not here to do your work for you.
here i will just make it quick for you reality….abortion is just baby killing. keep repeating that and youve got it.
heather says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:44 pm
and when they give anthony sowell the lethal needle …..i dont give a crud. same with peterson. im just a cold hearted death penalty type for people who have no remorse.
(Denise) Heather, have you ever wondered WHY these psychopaths have no remorse? WHY they don’t care about other people?
Scientific American Mind had a good cover story about psychopaths. The answer to the above questions is: They can’t. Psychopaths have a brain that is not functioning right.
Carla, there is a tendency at this forum and in others that promote criminalizing abortion to reflexively say of a female with a problem pregnancy, “There’s adoption.” On a talk show, someone said, “There’s not just legal or illegal abortion. There’s adoption.” He just left it at that. He should have added, “If a female is forced to bear a child because abortion is illegal and it’s impossible for her to get one, she will usually come to love the child automatically as a result of carrying it and giving birth. In addition, everyone will see her pregnant and expect her to have a baby after she gives birth. That means most will raise the babies they were forced to have. IF they still don’t want the baby after the birth, there’s adoption.”
The fact is this: few females give babies up for adoption. This is the MOST unpopular choice for those with unplanned pregnancies. The way it is mentioned by many people could lead one to believe that abortion is a myth: girls and women with unplanned pregnancies just have their babies and place them for adoption. But they don’t.
I’ve tried to find reasons why this choice is so unpopular. The way giving the baby up for adoption is discussed could lead someone to conclude that this is a popular choice and that multitudes of girls and women are regularly having babies and placing them for adoption. It’s not. There must be reasons.
Also, it is only fair that females relinquishing babies for adoption and potential adoptive parents have all possible information about adoption, including the ways adoption connects with things that are strongly ANTI-LIFE. This awareness might help them work to alleviate these strong and tragic connections.
For Heather: Scott Peterson’s mother had two babies that she placed for adoption. She was going to place the third one for adoption and the doctor said, “You can’t just keep having babies and giving them up.” So she kept the baby.
Could her history as a birthmother have contributed to the way she raised Scott?
Denise,
I refuse to talk adoption with you anymore.
Heather,
Life After Abortion documentary
http://www.lifeafterabortion.net/
Faces of Abortion(my segment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VbQRvx8nAE
To order some episodes
http://store.afa.net/p-10000239-faces-of-abortion-series.aspx
Hi Reality,
I will tell you that YES I am surrounded by post abortive women in various stages of grief.(And it is grief. You don’t pay someone to kill your own baby and not have grief. The first stage of grief is denial.) Quite a few tell me it was the best thing they have ever done. Several know they need and want help but aren’t ready. So they tell me. There is one who refuses to discuss it with me. My sister. One is a close friend who tells me that if only I could “get over it by accepting God’s forgiveness” I wouldn’t have to “dwell” on it so much. LOL
You do understand that I have been there right?? Been through all of the stages and meet women all the time that may or may not want help. So I wait. And plan my next Rachel’s Vineyard retreat.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
It really doesn’t matter what I say to you. :)
Hi Megan,
I like you too!!!
Can hardly wait for the day when you email me and we can talk it all out in the privacy of gmail!! :)
Self punishment? I know a little about that. Sometimes I find myself at a forum that I KNOW will not be friendly to me. Usually when I am feeling down about something. I get attacked for regretting my abortion and vow next time that I will not do that again.
PS
Last month I spoke at our Banquet for Life.(I am on the board of my nearest PRC)I spoke with my old roommate who drove me to my abortion.(She is now the Director of a PRC!! woot)
ANYWAY, we raised $9,400 for our center!!!
hey denise im typing from a phone and i dont have an e mail in place. i have a disadvantage typing from this tiny keyboard. anyway whose grading?. re; sociopath. dont forget denise im a terrible typer but a speed reader. i read scotts adopted sisters book and yes i am aware. they cannot feel and they do not feel. however about scott..good ? but i dunno. i really do also believe casey anthony is one as well but i cannot fault and will not fault george and cindy. george knows the truth cindy does too but its not easy believing that your own kid could kill her baby and your grandchild. good interview w dr. phil. george said “she wont come back here as long as i live here.”
i dont know if a sociopath is made or born. i really do have secret mercy for them though. (dont tell anyone) but duh it was so obvious scott had done it! his wife was missing and he was smiling. i knew it right then. i dont know if jackie had anything to do with is as a woman who stated about a sex predator who raped and killed her 5 year old (hed been abused) she said “i dont care that you were a victim you could have stopped the cycle. you made that choice to rape and kill my daughter.” i dont know anymore. we just have so many anymore. as far as casey anthony goes i think the media has done a great job of ignoring her. i would have convicted her and given her old sparky myself. i believe she was cleared because those parents were in so much pain.
Reality, you don’t know any of the abortion procedures.
How do you suppose we prevent abortions based on gender?
Megan, which clinic(s) did you go to?
How many weeks old was the baby(ies)?
How old were you when you had the abortion(s)?
Did you tell your boyfriend(s)? Did you tell your parents? From whom did you seek help?
@ carla thank you for the links. i think the usa needs a complete makeover……oh but im doubting. 4000 abortions will be done today. i think it has hit a record hi. i get so tired of talking to these people who dont believe in god. yeah right up the street was a billboard to join athiests. i know its a choice and until we put god first again this country is going to crash and burn. meant to say a recod high of abortion since obama nation took office. dont listen to the tv libs whob really think were going in the right direction. pass the xanax please. its amazing liberals dont condone adultry. why not start?? they might as well just condone everything that goes against god.
Wow Tyler, is there some Google app that will enable you to verify my medical history?
Megan, there is no need for an app your response said it all.
I believe you Carla. You are surrounded by dozens, maybe even hundreds of women who are either regretting their abortion or susceptible to being convinced they are.
So how many abortions are there each year? And how many are second or third abortions?
As I said before, everyone has made choices they regret, in some cases that may be because of abortion. But not in the majority of cases.
Of course Tyler, of course. I don’t know any of the abortion procedures. Despite having spent several months on this site in various discussions and using our friend google and other sources to verify some of the information regarding abortions presented here, I have gained no knowledge of abortion procedures.
Your belief or claim of this does of course, clearly demonstrate much more about you than it does about me.
Heather –
I don’t feel sorry for the grandparents. Again with the adoption thing, Casey had set up an adoption for Caylee with a high school friend back when she was pregnant, but Grandma Crazy Cindy made her cancel the plan because having the baby would “straighten her (Casey) out”. A lot of good that did for both of them, huh? No, I have no sympathy for those people. Including Grandpa who was an ex-police officer and obviously knew what was up from the dead smell in the car but helped his daughter cover up the killing anyway.
Reality if you weren’t advocating something as serious as abortion I would consider you a joke. But because you are discussing abortion you are a very dangerous person. I hope Ms. Stanek will ban you from all forums and discussion threads as your position on abortion is so callous it does not deserve to be publicly displayed. (You still haven’t named one abortion procedure let alone show that you understand how a single abortion procedure is done.)
Some people on this site have spent years trying to help woman, and you come here, proudly displaying your ignorance and your self-professed superior charity castigating these people after a few months of reviewing websites!!! I am sure we can trust your vast knowledge and reliable sources (I think I should point out to you that this sentence is sarcastic).
Pro-Lifers care about the Mother and the Baby. You, on the other hand, only care about the Mother. Pro-lifers are mandated by their ethics to care for both the Mother and the Baby. So since you deny the reality of the baby… our conversation with you should be short. It is pointless. You have already decided to close your mind prior to looking at the evidence. You have no scientific reason for denying the humanity or the personhood of the baby and yet you persist in doing so. So tell me who is being willfully ignorant? Who is blindly accepting the status quo and the right for a judicial body to decide who lives and dies. Reality, you have ceded to the State the most fundamental and transcendental right of every person without considering if that is a wise thing to do? You fail to acknowledge the impact abortion has women, and you deny that the majority of women suffer after an abortion. Since you say you are not young, whatever that means, I can only surmise that you are very insensitive. This is my last request: for the rest of us, who have a little more compassion than yourself, can you please just listen first before revealing your profound inexperience and selfishness by talking.
You are surrounded by dozens, maybe even hundreds of women who are either regretting their abortion or susceptible to being convinced they are.
You are hilarious!! LOL!! Susceptible to being convinced they are?? Um. Yeah. THEY call me. THEY email me. THEY facebook message me. Like I said there are women that tell me it was “the best thing they have ever done!!” I know women in various stages of grief after their abortions. You can’t pay someone to kill your own child and not be affected somehow. You don’t believe that. Fine with me.
The point you are trying to make that since MILLIONS of abortions have been done and I know HUNDREDS of hurting women then I simply MUST be full of hot air.
::shrugs::
At the top of this post there is an ad for The Center for Bio Ethical Reform. To the right you will see two little arms with two hands and ten fingers. At ten weeks I had an abortion. Those are what my Aubrey’s arms and hands and fingers looked like after she was removed in pieces from me. I know you won’t look though. Or care.
Hi Tyler,
Every blog has a troll. We have several. As long as they do not break the rules of commenting then they are welcome to stay.
Actually they do us a favor every time they comment.
:)
“if you weren’t advocating something as serious as abortion I would consider you a joke.” – feel free to consider me any way you wish Tyler, it’s your choice.
“But because you are discussing abortion you are a very dangerous person.” – but surely you would only consider me dangerous if I could actually change anyones mind, and I don’t think you do, or do you?
“I hope Ms. Stanek will ban you from all forums and discussion threads as your position on abortion is so callous it does not deserve to be publicly displayed.” – that is entirely up to Ms. Stanek, it’s her forum. I don’t think your position on abortion deserves to be publicly displayed either, but I would never attempt to silence you.
“(You still haven’t named one abortion procedure let alone show that you understand how a single abortion procedure is done.)” – I note that you haven’t made any attempts to educate me. How much do you really know?
“Some people on this site have spent years trying to help woman, and you come here, proudly displaying your ignorance and your self-professed superior charity” – the fact is that I have also spent years helping women, and other groups. Your claim of my ignorance is subjective opinion based on your disagreeing with my position.
“castigating these people after a few months of reviewing websites!!!” – zoom! Off you go again. I said that I have spent several months on this site. I’ve been around and active for much longer than that, in other realms, other forms of media and on other sites.
“I am sure we can trust your vast knowledge and reliable sources (I think I should point out to you that this sentence is sarcastic).” – and here is an appropriate response …….. ( )
“Pro-Lifers care about the Mother and the Baby.” – my observation here has been that it is fetus first, woman second.
“You, on the other hand, only care about the Mother.” – I care about the woman, I’ll worry about the baby once a woman has decided to give birth to one so it actually exists.
“Pro-lifers are mandated by their ethics to care for both the Mother and the Baby.” – fine, that’s your choice.
“So since you deny the reality of the baby” – I’ve got photos of my children, my nieces and my nephews, I don’t deny their reality.
“… our conversation with you should be short. It is pointless.” – then why are you persisting?
“You have already decided to close your mind prior to looking at the evidence.” – hardly, I look at the info provided here and I verify whether it is accurate or not. I just don’t succumb to sources with an agenda when they are provided as ‘evidence’.
“You have no scientific reason for denying the humanity or the personhood of the baby and yet you persist in doing so.” – I don’t deny that a fetus is biologically human, it just isn’t a person.
“So tell me who is being willfully ignorant?” – do you imagine I will put up my hand and say ‘me! me!’. Who is being delusionally ignorant?
“Who is blindly accepting the status quo” – not me, never. There is still much work to be done.
“and the right for a judicial body to decide who lives and dies.” – that would be supporters of the death penalty. In the case of abortion it is each individual woman who makes a decision, not any judicial body.
“Reality, you have to ceded to the State the most fundamental and transcendental right of every person without considering if that is a wise thing to do?” – is that a statement or a question? Make up your mind! Death penalty supporters may have but I haven’t ceded anything to the state, I cede it to each individual woman.
“You fail to acknowledge the impact abortion has women,” – no, I don’t, I just don’t agree that it has a negative impact in the vast majority of cases.
“and you deny that the majority of women suffer after an abortion.” – I don’t need to deny what isn’t true.
“Since you say you are not young, whatever that means, I can only surmise that you are very insensitive.” – you don’t know what ‘not young’ means? Surmise away.
“This is my last request: for the rest of us, who have a little more compassion than yourself,” – don’t talk to me about compassion when you would judge others based on your version of life and try to force them to accept your doctrines and isms.
“can you please just listen first before revealing your profound inexperience and selfishness by talking.” I have engaged in this and other forms of interaction on this topic for a long time. I have done much listening, looking, checking and investigating. If you determine that my different perspective to yours is redolent of ‘profound inexperience and selfishness’ then once again I say to you, that clearly demonstrates much more about you than it does about me.
If Motherhood was not part of being a woman, and no female babies were aborted, abortion could be said to be a pro-woman medical procedure. However, since abortion does cause female babies to be aborted and prevents motherhood it is not a pro-woman medical procedure.
Abortion does not empower women but makes them dependent on a medical procedure to achieve what responsible sexual behavior does more effectively. Abortion does empower women to do one thing: it empowers women to disregard the science that established, many years ago, that human development begins with a fertilized egg.
Carla,
Nice to see you (Your youtube link to Heather). I’ve read your personal account several times here, but it was quite another thing to see it “live on tape”. Although it was a little difficult to see towards the end. Something was in my eye. I can’t imagine what.
Thanks for being Silent No More. I hear your Outcry. More and more will too.
Reality,
While I like Tyler’s enthusiasm, I don’t mind your presence here. You may be calloused, but perhaps we can soften you up a bit. If not, there must be a cream for that. :)
Thank you, Hans for watching. And listening.
You hear the distant thunder.
” Like I said there are women that tell me it was “the best thing they have ever done!!” – there you go then!
“The point you are trying to make that since MILLIONS of abortions have been done and I know HUNDREDS of hurting women then I simply MUST be full of hot air. ” – not at all Carla. My point is simply that people who suffer as you have are in the minority and that there are many choices we make in life that can have that sort of outcome for us, no matter what the topic.
Let me be totally clear – I do not question the validity of the negative impact that you say abortion has had on you.
But then I could say that the marriage I entered into when I was young had a very similar impact on me to what you have described.
“Actually they do us a favor every time they comment” – yeah, so take that Tyler :-)
Let me translate
“Paying someone to forcefully dilate my cervix and tear my baby from my body(killing her)using a vacuum suction and then piecing her body back together to make sure they got all of her was the best thing I ever did!!!”
It doesn’t matter if I am in the minority, Reality. You believe what you would like to believe.
Abortion stories of regret are irrefutable. Realizing with horror what actually happened to your baby during an abortion affected us. Kinda want to add a DUH there.
Marriage? Your marriage? We aren’t talking about your marriage. Unless your spouse forced you to have an abortion while married? You tried to commit suicide over your marriage? You drank? You struggled with depression? Nightmares? Suicidal thoughts? Infertility? Intimacy issues?
Focus, dude.
I am talking about killing my child and living with that for the rest of my life.
No we aren’t discussing marriage Carla. I wasn’t trying to stray off topic.
The point I have been trying to make is that we all make choices that can impact on us the way your abortion impacted on you. It happens.
You describe the abortion procedure you underwent, that is the source of your experience. You see it as having killed your child, the majority don’t. But that does not negate what you feel.
In other scenarios people can describe events of equilvalent experience which become their negative impact. They are as valid as yours.
Yes, my completely different ‘event’ to yours had a very similar impact on me to what you have described. I see the choice I made as being as harmful as you see yours, the majority may not. I too have to live with the choice I made for the rest of my life.
“So since you deny the reality of the baby” – I’ve got photos of my children, my nieces and my nephews, I don’t deny their reality.
How old are your kids, Reality? Were they born before 1975? If so, that might explain your ignorance (for that’s really all it can be called, with your “they’re not a person” statement). Ultrasound wasn’t really used before then to speak of, so I suppose you’re just ill-informed. I have pictures of both of my children taken BEFORE they were born. They existed then just like they exist now, and they’ve always been human beings-synonymous with “person”-even at that point in their very young lives.
You describe the abortion procedure you underwent, that is the source of your experience. You see it as having killed your child, the majority don’t.
Ummm…Carla’s point of view has nothing to do with the description of what actually happened, Reality. Other peoples’ poor comprehension of biological fact doesn’t change what actually occurs during an abortion. A fetal human is a living human being, by definition. That living human being is the biological child of the pregnant woman undergoing the abortion. The abortion procedure kills that living human being who is the pregnant woman’s biological child. These are inescapable, irrefutable scientific facts, and that some women choose to deny this doesn’t change what actually happens, and that once women allow themselves to acknowledge those simple biological facts, the results can be and most often ARE devastating to her.
Yes, my completely different ‘event’ to yours had a very similar impact on me to what you have described. I see the choice I made as being as harmful as you see yours, the majority may not. I too have to live with the choice I made for the rest of my life.
Thanks for that! I think I get your angle now! You married someone who was totally wrong for you because of an unexpected pregnancy, and that damned baby ruined your life! It has nothing to do with the poor choices you made, it’s all that damn baby’s fault, and you woulda/shoulda/coulda killed him or her if only you would’ve had the chance. It’s all so clear to me now!
I have an ultrasound photo taken when my now 30 year old son was a developing fetus.
Both your posts hinge on one factor xalisae, that a fetus is a child and a person.
To refer to a fetus as a child is a subjective choice.
And the majority don’t ascribe ‘personhood’ to a fetus, as has been shown.
“You married someone who was totally wrong for you because of an unexpected pregnancy, and that damned baby ruined your life!” – ha ha ha, you couldn’t be further from the truth no matter how hard you tried. My ex-wife’s first ever pregnancy was with our son, three years after we wed.
To refer to a fetus as a child is a subjective choice.
Umm…yeah. I guess denying reality IS a subjective choice. But it doesn’t change the biological fact, and as we amass more and more knowledge about human beings pre-birth, you’ll find tide of those who DO elect to grant gestating humans their deserved personhood to rise.
Apparently not.
I have an ultrasound photo taken when my now 30 year old son was a developing fetus.
And yet you don’t think he should’ve had the right to live at that age, and you think that you/your wife should’ve had every right to kill him as long as he was in utero. For someone who protests that I “couldn’t be more wrong”, your action of supporting legal abortion speaks much louder than your words. You must be a very loving parent. 9_9
Apparently not.
Only because your side spent millions lying about the measures right before the votes. Once the lies have been adequately and completely vanquished with truth, you’ll see the tide rise even higher (it DID only fail in MS by a narrow margin. ;) ).
“You must be a very loving parent” – thank you, yes I am. Even to children who aren’t mine :-)
The clusters of extremists who would make the state a theocracy were waiting in the wings to ride the coattails of granting ‘personhood’ to enable all sorts of restrictive and punitive regulations. You know it and I know it.
It wasn’t a huge margin, but I wouldn’t call it ‘slim’. And that’s in about the most ‘pro-choice’ state there is.
Given that a higher percentage of supporters of the amendment would have turned out to vote for it than those who didn’t support it, especially those who were ambivalent, the ‘silent’ margin was probably even wider.
And given the outcomes when this has been tried in less unenlightened states, I’d say it’s one of those campaigns which will fizzle out due to too many people groaning when the subject is raised.
It will soon be an expired proposition.
Reality : “The clusters of extremists who would make the state a theocracy…”
What does Religion have to do with anything? Are you getting confused again?
Polls that were intentionally skewed showing it passing scared the piss out of all those who were afraid they’d no longer have the legal option to kill their children in utero should they feel they “need” to do so, and enough pro-lifers were duped by misinformation (as you cite here about “theocracy”, no, I don’t know it, because I actually went to the website for the measure and read about it) to either abstain from voting or to vote against it.
it WAS a slim margin, and as the truth comes out, those margins will narrow. I personally can’t wait, because I’ve heard they’re drafting a personhood measure for my state! I’m going to enjoy campaigning for it. :D
Also…3 years post or a month prior…might not have been a shotgun wedding, but I bet it was pretty easy for you to misplace the blame of being miserable with your spouse when you were “staying together for the children”.
I believe you Carla. You are surrounded by dozens, maybe even hundreds of women who are either regretting their abortion or susceptible to being convinced they are.
Women are susceptible to being convinced that they regret killing their child but we should trust vulnerable women enough to not be susceptible to predators who make money off of killing their children?
Alrighty then.
“What does Religion have to do with anything? Are you getting confused again?“ – are you for real?
“Polls that were intentionally skewed showing it passing” – ah, is that what happened, got any evidence?
There were doubts raised by prominent conservatives, religious leaders and doctors. Even anti-choice individuals and groups were hesitant about supporting it.
“as the truth comes out, those margins will narrow.” – since the truth did come out I very much doubt that.
“I personally can’t wait, because I’ve heard they’re drafting a personhood measure for my state! I’m going to enjoy campaigning for it.” – good, that’ll keep you occupied on a pointless endeavour for a while.
“Also…3 years post or a month prior…might not have been a shotgun wedding, but I bet it was pretty easy for you to misplace the blame of being miserable with your spouse when you were “staying together for the children” – you still have absolutely no idea, or proximity to the truth. I love the way a few of you take off on these flights of fancy brought about by your desire for what you regard as the worst possible scenario to be the cause of things. I guess its just a negativity paradigm.
Legalising abortion has done more to remove predators from the abortion services than anything else Praxedes.
Reality: “are you for real?”
Yes. So, what does Religion have to do with the abortion debate? It is a purely Philosophical argument.
Look around you Oliver. The overwhelming majority bring religion into the abortion debate. Yes, there are some claimed ‘secular’ anti-choicers but when I look at their sites I see a more than minor smattering of religious argument and references.
“It is a purely Philosophical argument” – really? That’s not what I read from a lot of people here and in other similar forums.
Amongst those who bring religion to the debate there are a large number who argue against methods of contraception which may be alleged to be abortifacients.
Amongst those are the group that agitate for no contraception whatsoever.
Then there are those who are against non-marital sex and all for abstinence.
See where I’m going with this?
Religion is a fundamental element of many peoples’ arguments against abortion. They will follow that trail into other matters. The campaigns to introduce prayer into schools and public meetings. The denial of equal rights for gay people.
If some of the leading figures in all these matters had their way, we would become a theocracy.
Religious belief is the background for why people actually care about social issues. It doesn’t negate their opinions, though it certainly may annoy those who don’t hold those (or any) beliefs.
There are many with “touchy-feely” New Age beliefs who would agree with the left side on these issues.
Yes it is Hans. It’s just a pity they can’t do so without it, at their own sentient being behest perhaps.
The touchy-feely New Age beliefs are no better than the old power-mongering conquer or kill beliefs.
Reality,
I believe in killing with kindness. Though I seldom live up to that ideal.
I love the way a few of you take off on these flights of fancy brought about by your desire for what you regard as the worst possible scenario to be the cause of things.
I’m just trying to figure out how you can be a self-professed “loving parent” while simultaneously holding the view that there was a point in the life cycle of every single one of your children at which you thought a choice to kill them would be an acceptable, just, and possibly even laudable act. In most circles, those two things are seen as being mutually exclusive.
the truth did come out
– O RLY? Is that why hordes of doctors practically spent days trying to cut through all the lying b.s. your side blasted about how the measure would outlaw contraception and IVF (LIE), and cause women to die of ectopic pregnancies in ERs across the state by the boatload (ALSO A LIE)?! Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. I wasn’t born yesterday.
– good, that’ll keep you occupied on a pointless endeavour for a while.
You might think fighting to protect human lives is a pointless endeavor, but I beg to differ. And, you shouldn’t worry about me so much. I’m in the midst of some down-time, so I have plenty of time to work for measures like these. I’m never too busy to help a segment of human beings be recognized for who/what they are. ;)
The pro-choice side presents a number of propositions that are misleading. Yet the most misleading proposition the pro-choice presents is the one that gives rises to the label” ”Pro-Choice.”
The Pro-Choice Movement is not for all choice, nor is it for all of the choices made by women. The Pro-Choice does not argue that rape or murder or sexual assault should be a choice. The Pro-Choice is not asking the government to legalize rape, murder and sexual assault.
The Pro-Choice Movement does not advocate that women should have the choice to rape another women, or that she has the right to murder the woman next door. The Pro-Choice movement does argue that woman has the right to harm her body or to commit suicide.
So the Pro-Choice Movement does not mean it is “Pro – Every Choice” so why it is the Pro-Choice movement pro-abortion? Why doesn’t the Pro-Choice movement encourage women and men to be more responsible sexually. Why does the Pro_Choice side advocate abortion and contraceptives?
If we take the Pro-Choice Movements word that they are not anti-life, anti-birth, and anti-pregnancy we on the Pro-Life side can only assume that the Pro-Choice appellation refers to the Pro-Choicer’s support of abortion and contraception. The Pro-Choice movement needs to more clearly define what they mean by being pro-choice since we most people who live in a democratic country are pro-freedom. If the “Pro-Choice” appellation means they are for freedom, and fail to define the content, of that freedom then it is fair for others to define what they mean in specific situations.
Why hasn’t the Pro-Choice side come against abortion? Why has the Pro-Choice side sought to define the health of the Mother so broadly that it includes destroying the life that grows inside her? Why does the Pro-Choice side currently encourage women to use contraceptives and abortion? Wouldn’t the Pro-Choice side be more compassionate if it educated women about sexuality rather encouraging women to deny the consequences of sexual activity and then force women to second guess their decisions on mating and life.
The Pro-Choice movement could support restricting the choices of women to all of the choices up to the point of pregnancy, just as the Pro-Choice movement currently supports a woman’s choice to defend herself, but do not support that woman’s choice to willfully kill or rape someone.
except that there are also Pro-Life individuals who support contraception but not abortion. You’re painting with far too large a brush there, friend.
xalisae, What is good about contraception?
Which contraceptive methods do you support?
Contraception, generally, is not a specifically male or female issue. But contraception is a life issue.
Contraception is often used to engage in pre-marital sex, which is not a healthy thing for human beings to do. One would have to have a materialistic worldview to support pre-marital sex. The use of contraceptives in a marriage is not important if the couple can communicate well and if the couple has each other’s best interest at heart.
People can contracept all they like, engage in any type of sex they enjoy, and be as materialistic as they see fit, as long as they’re not hurting anyone else. I don’t agree with it, but that’s their right. I actually currently have my tubes tied, but after I get them untied and my fiance and I have had 2 or 3, he’ll be getting a vasectomy. Pro-Life IS NOT synonymous with “intrusive busy-body”. I fail to see how improved communication will prevent me from becoming pregnant. Feeling the desire to have sex with my fiance, if I wasn’t currently unable to conceive, could possibly result in pregnancy, regardless of how great our communication is (which is pretty great. I mean, we’re basically in constant contact regardless of where we are on any given day).
What’s good about contraception? It allows me to feel close to my significant other and bond with him when we feel we need to, without conceiving a child in poor circumstances. We’re not hurting anyone, and I really don’t care what you think of my bedroom habits. I’m proud of being intimate with the man I love and respect, who loves and respects me too. :)
Oh, and Tyler, when you make a stink about contraception, it takes away from the heart of what Pro-Life is, which is being against abortion that is killing thousands of human beings a day. Why do you want to concern yourself with others’ sex lives when thousands of human beings are being killed every day? Let’s fix the abortion problem first. Then we’ll fight about contraception.
xalise,
I hope I can talk about abstinence and chastity. People talk about condoms and the pill all the time.
I know this may sound old fashioned but good communication and sharing with one’s partner may alleviate the desire to have sexual intimacy. Good communication allows a couple to get to know each other intimately, not just sexually.
Sexual intimacy, before a long-term commitment has been made, usually ends up hurting someone who has a longer-term relationship as their goal. This is practical advice passed on from generation to generation. Unfortunately, many people have mistakenly thought that new technologies have dispensed with the need for this type of advice. I am not saying this is the case about your relationship nor would I want to say that about anyone’s relationship. I am just saying that a relationship should not be built on sex. As human beings sex does not satisfy us although it is enjoyable, nor does sex sustain a relationship. A married couple open to procreation illuminates the relationship their bodies have with one another. Being against contraception has a lot to do with respecting the body: your own body and the body of your partner. I think learning this respect for the body of the other goes along way to building a good relationship and transforming each of the persons involved into other directed people. Being other directed people leads, generally, to a pro-life attitude towards all people, not just people of a specific gender.
Some contraceptives are not even contraceptives in the technical sense. Some actually allow conception to occur. Other contraceptive methods often fail which leads to abortions. Abstinence is the most effective way to prevent abortions. For young men abstinence is particularly important since a lot of pro-choice women and undecided women will contemplate abortion if they experience an unexpected pregnancy. Abortion is wrongly seen by many people as on a continuum of birth control practices beginning with condoms or the pill and ending with abortion.
I agree abortion is a much more serious offence but it is hard to be anti-abortion if one doesn’t address the mentality that goes with it.
Although I respect your position to have your tubes tied I think a more affordable and practical suggestion to make to young people is to practice abstinence and chastity. In my opinion, self-mastery is not a bad thing. In fact self-mastery is very powerful gift to one’s partner.
I know this may sound old fashioned but good communication and sharing with one’s partner may alleviate the desire to have sexual intimacy. Good communication allows a couple to get to know each other intimately, not just sexually.
That’s odd, because I’ve found the opposite to be true. The more I communicate with and bond emotionally and intellectually with my fiance, the more I want to bond with him physically as well.
I guess I’m just different, but I don’t get what you mean by “the mentality that goes with it”. I have used contraception in the past and still conceived, yet never aborted. I know plenty of other people who have too though. One does not naturally follow the other, and to me they are entirely different issues. I have had to fight back against accusations from most pro-choicers who say we don’t really care about life and that we only wish to control women’s sexual habits and choices. I must explain to them that I do not-they’re welcome to do whatever they please with whomever they please whenever the please, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone else by doing so, and remind them that abortion kills a living human being who is their child.
xalisae
As an example of those who use birth control I would say you are the exception rather than the rule .
The mentality that goes with abortion is that birth, life, and pregnancy are things to be avoided, things that need to be controlled. Oddly, the abortion/contraceptive mentality believes that sex has no consequences. It may be odd to say that people who are on birth control don’t understand that sex has consequences but generally i think this is true. I think the contraceptive mentality manufacturers the idea that a couple can have “safe” sex. The contraceptive manufacturers market the idea of safety so that the meaning of safety extends from STDs to pregnancy. But ultimately, most methods of contraception fail and the result is that the couple is not ready for a baby, the consequence.
Your experience of wanting to bond with your boyfriend physically after communicating with him is not unnatural. However, it is premature because it is outside of a lasting marriage, a long-term union. It is not fair to any of the children that may be born into the unmarried relationship. One should try to make sure the relationship is as stable as possible before sexually consummating the relationship. Outside a marriage a woman is more likely to be left to her own devices with little help from her partner, making abortion a more desirable option.
The old way of doing things did try to make sure the woman was not mistreated, but somehow marriage became construed as anti-woman and as an oppressive tradition/institution. Poetically, marriage is the best way to reduce abortion.
xalisae
There is one very real and difficult reality for those who practice self-mastery: many people do not.
However, so that I don’t end on a negative note I would just like add that there still are people who believe in chastity, and self-mastery – one just has to make sure that they are looking for them.
First of all, I’d like to make something very clear: he is my FIANCE. He’s been proposing to me almost since the day we met, and if my ex hadn’t been intentionally dragging out our divorce going on almost 2 years now, we would’ve been married back then, too. I don’t think it’s premature to want to be intimate with someone I would’ve been married to for over a year now already if circumstances allowed.
Not all marriages are long-term. Not all should be. Not all unmarried relationships are short-term, either, and not every married couple is a perfect environment for children, and not every unmarried parenting couple is “unfair” to their children. Most importantly, let me just say that I know from experience, having some people as a spouse HINDERS your ability to parent effectively, and they contribute NOTHING. The rose-colored marriage glasses you wear I can tell you from experience are clouding your vision.
My marriage was anti-woman. It was oppressive. Some marriages are. The relationship I and my fiance enjoy is far more legitimate than the 9 years (7+ married) I spent with my ex.
The mentality that goes with abortion is that birth, life, and pregnancy are things to be avoided, things that need to be controlled.
I’m glad my fertility is controlled. My soon-to-be ex-husband is a rapist who told me straight up that he regretted having me get my tubes tied because when I tried to leave his abuse, he would’ve just tried to rape me to get me pregnant again so I would be forced to stay with him. I’m sad that having children with my fiance once we’re married is going to be very costly, but I’m also relieved that when we have children, it will most likely be an accomplishment after much effort invested. Even if my tubal failed though, we would be the happiest people in the world to have created a child of love with one another, and the feeling is mutual between us, because we’ve spoken about the topic at length.
There is no such thing as being ready for a baby. No one is ever completely ready for a baby. No one knows how any given child is going to behave, what they might need, and nobody has all the answers. All anyone can do is their best, and the more we spread that message to young men and women, the less they will feel like they’re going to be such terrible parents they MUST abort.
lol. “self-mastery”. As if contracepting means we’re unable to control ourselves. Give me a break. 9_9
Frequency or infrequency of sexual contact does not make any one person better than another.
“…how you can be a self-professed “loving parent” while simultaneously holding the view…” – because they’re not a child or person until they’re born. Do you have any scientific evidence that pro-choicers love their children less? Or that they aren’t as good parents?
“– O RLY?” – yes. There were even doctors who said they would be hesitant about cancer treatments for women who fell pregnant. And there is no doubt tat the push would have been on immediately to ban the pill and IUDs.
“And, you shouldn’t worry about me so much.” – worry? I’m not worried about you. You can waste as much time and effort as you like on ineffectual efforts.
“As an example of those who use birth control I would say you are the exception rather than the rule” – do you really believe that?
because they’re not a child or person until they’re born.
Source for that information? A simple DNA test would beg to differ, and I’m afraid I believe the cold hard facts moreso than you. The test would show that they are your children, sharing a parent/child bond with you. They were and are human beings. That makes them persons. Sorry that facts disagree with you.
human being
noun
1.
any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
2.a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species: living conditions not fit for human beings; a very generous human being.
Do you have any scientific evidence that pro-choicers love their children less? Or that they aren’t as good parents?
“A new study finds that women who have a history of abortion are more likely to abuse children born from subsequent pregnancies. The study, published in the Internet Journal of Pediatrics and Neonatology, confirms previous research which suggests that there is a link between abortion and child abuse.
The study is based on an analysis of data on 237 low-income women in Baltimore who had physically mistreated or neglected at least one of their children or allowed someone else to do so.
While all the women in the study had some connection with child maltreatment or neglect, the authors found that those who reported a history of abortion reported significantly more frequent acts of physical violence, such as slapping, hitting or beating, directed at their children.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman, a researcher at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, was the lead author of the new report.”
Yeah, I do.
There were even doctors who said they would be hesitant about cancer treatments for women who fell pregnant. And there is no doubt tat the push would have been on immediately to ban the pill and IUDs.
And I have a flock of doctors who say otherwise who DON’T stand to make money profiting from committing abortions. Your point?
“A simple DNA test would beg to differ” – no it wouldn’t, it just shows that a fetus is of the human species. ‘Child’ and ‘person’ are subjective terms and we saw how the vote on that went, didn’t we.
“A new study finds that women….” – link please. Ugh, don’t bother, it’s Dr. Priscilla Coleman, she’s already discredited.
I don’t think cancer treatment specialists stand to make money from abortions.
I’ve already stated my point.
Reality: “The overwhelming majority bring religion into the abortion debate.”
This is a rather bold claim. How do you get majority, let alone an “overwhelming” one? Most of the debates I have been a part of have rarely, if ever, called on the authority of a God for support. Almost all, if not all, have been structured around the meaning of “human rights,” moral obligations, etc. I bet you would have a hard time finding many people citing Christianity/Islam/Etc as the main component of an anti-abortion argument, other than to criticize fellow believers.
Actually, I am going to challenge you on this. What do you mean by “overwhelming majority?” 75%? 80%? Show me how you got this evidence. Count the number of posts arguing about abortion, and then count how many of the claim God as the main grounds. I am curious about this.
Reality: “Amongst those who bring religion to the debate there are a large number who argue against methods of contraception which may be alleged to be abortifacients.
Amongst those are the group that agitate for no contraception whatsoever.
Then there are those who are against non-marital sex and all for abstinence.
See where I’m going with this?”
What do those arguments have to do with abortion, except for the abortifacient one of course? Your argument was not “There are religious people that are pro-life that also argue about other things using Religion!” How is this relevant?
Reality: “Religion is a fundamental element of many peoples’ arguments against abortion.”
Fair enough, but only because “many” is so vague. Sure, some people use Religion as their main argument. Most, in my experience, do not. I’d like you to prove your claim.
– no it wouldn’t, it just shows that a fetus is of the human species.
No, you’re proving yourself ignorant once again. DNA tests are now FAR more detailed than JUST showing that a fetus is of human origin. It would also indicate parentage, showing YOU to be the father and them to be your child. Nothing subjective about it.
I’m sorry, but could you elaborate on your statement about Dr. Coleman?
So you think cancer docs don’t make money by doing abortions themselves or getting kicked back for abortion referrals for patients when they’re shoving abortions on women with cancer? Get real.
“Count the number of posts arguing about abortion, and then count how many of the claim God as the main grounds. I am curious about this” – then do it yourself and see if you can prove me wrong.
Oh, and by the way, I didn’t claim “as the main grounds”, I said “bring religion into the abortion debate.”
Have a look at what have been the longest threads here lately. The ones about Father Frank Pavone versus the Bishop and the ones which deteriorate into anti-semitic b**ch-slapping contests.
And yes, the ‘overwhelming majority’ of commenters here have at times cited god or the bible.
I’ve also been to so called ‘secular’ anti-choice sites and estimate that about 75% of the commenters there manage to slip in some god/bible stuff.
“What do those arguments have to do with abortion…” – this all stemmed from my comment that things would move from the ‘personhood’ amendment to various other factors indicative of a drive towards theocracy.
“No, you’re proving yourself ignorant once again” – no, you’re just avoiding the facts. Yes DNA shows that a fetus is of the human species, yes it can show parentage. I have not disputed these factors.
But it does NOT prove that a fetus is a child or a person, they are subjective applications.
Type ‘Dr. Priscilla Coleman’ into google and scan some of the stuff on the first two or three pages of results. Much frowning and head shaking at her methodologies and assumptions by her peers and relevant associations. Not to mention such a small sample size in one location being incapable of rendering a relaible statistical outcome.
And what about pro-choice parents who’ve never had an abortion? Got any scientific evidence that they aren’t as good parents or that they love their kids less?
“So you think cancer docs don’t make money by doing abortions themselves or getting kicked back for abortion referrals for patients when they’re shoving abortions on women with cancer?” – now you’re just sounding like one of those conspiracy theorists who live in a cabin deep in the woods with a lifetime supply of beans in the cellar and more guns than toilet paper. Get real.
Reality: “then do it yourself and see if you can prove me wrong.”
Sure. I’ll do it on this thread. Next post, if I have time. Should be easy.
Reality: “Oh, and by the way, I didn’t claim “as the main grounds”, I said “bring religion into the abortion debate.”
Have a look at what have been the longest threads here lately. The ones about Father Frank Pavone versus the Bishop and the ones which deteriorate into anti-semitic b**ch-slapping contests.”
So your concern is not that Pro-lifers use Religion as their basis for argumentation, but that they talk about Religion on their blogs? Very few use God’s authority as their sole argument. They are debating a matter that is irrelevant to the argument against abortion.
Reality: “And yes, the ‘overwhelming majority’ of commenters here have at times cited god or the bible.
I’ve also been to so called ‘secular’ anti-choice sites and estimate that about 75% of the commenters there manage to slip in some god/bible stuff.”
Bullshit. Prove it. That simply doesn’t happen in that percentage.
Reality: “this all stemmed from my comment that things would move from the ‘personhood’ amendment to various other factors indicative of a drive towards theocracy.”
Oh the slippery slope argument, that’s a good one. (If we outlaw murder, then the next thing you know they are going to outlaw breathing!! MY GOD DON’T OUTLAW MURDER!!!!)
Also, I thought your argument was that Pro-lifers sometimes talk about Religion on their blog, not that they use it as their main argumentation. If they aren’t using Religion as their main argumentation, then why would you link the personhood amendment to a theocracy? (Did the fact that a lot of Abolitionists were Christian at all run the risk of producing a Theocracy? Use your head.)
Okay, I went through 50 posts or so of this thread, and briefly scanned the rest. No use of God or the Bible or any other Religious text as an authority. Care to take your point back?
“So your concern is not that Pro-lifers use Religion as their basis for argumentation, but that they talk about Religion on their blogs?” – incorrect. It is merely an example which indicates the extent to which religion is a part of so many of the anti-choicers here.
“Very few use God’s authority as their sole argument” – I’ve already said that’s not what I claim, they use it as one of their arguments or part of their arguments.
“Bullshit. Prove it. That simply doesn’t happen in that percentage” – oh dear, there’s that language again! OK, I’ll drop to 60% on secular sites but that’s it.
“(If we outlaw murder, then the next thing you know they are going to outlaw breathing!! MY GOD DON’T OUTLAW MURDER!!!!)” – that is just plain pathetic, I thought you were capable of better. That’s about that same as saying “Oh no, they’re introducing airbags, next thing they’ll ban cars!”
“Also, I thought your argument was that Pro-lifers sometimes talk about Religion on their blog, not that they use it as their main argumentation.” – correct. The fact that they talk about religion shows that they are religious. They then proceed to use religion as part of their argument.
“If they aren’t using Religion as their main argumentation, then why would you link the personhood amendment to a theocracy?” – groan, I’ve already done this one! Most anti-choicers are religious, even if they don’t use it as their main argument against abortion. Many of those are also against contraception, in part on religious grounds – depending to what extent they oppose contraception – and in part on secular grounds – from ‘oh dear, the pill and IUDs kill ‘persons’! to ‘god says you should always be open to the possibility of conception’. Then there are those who oppose sex outside of marriage – pretty much religion based, which eventually leads us to those who oppose gay marriage – again, pretty much religion based. A purely secular train of argument would not follow this train to anywhere near the same extent or in the same volume of people wanting things to go that way. Therefore, the train to theocracy could have started chugging away if the ‘personhood’ amendment had got up. And we haven’t even mentioned the fights over prayer in schools and public meetings and religious imagery on government property.
Don’t use your head, you’ll only hurt it on the bricks – use your brain :-)
I said this site, not this thread.
Reality: “I’ve already said that’s not what I claim, they use it as one of their arguments or part of their arguments.”
First of all, this is still not true. Just about the only time Religious arguments come up with when a Pro-Lifer who is of a certain religion is trying to convince another person of that same religion. Then, it is a perfectly valid line of reasoning.
Second of all, who cares? If the prime argument agianst abortion presented has nothing to do with Religion and only a small sliver of the argument in certain circumstances does, why care? I’ve seen Religious arguments for just about anything, including support for abortion. Why does it matter unless it is a significant part of the argument?
Reality: “oh dear, there’s that language again! OK, I’ll drop to 60% on secular sites but that’s it.”
This is bull****. You can’t prove it, so you won’t. Just like you won’t answer my question, or actually explain how you stupidly confused Maslow’s needs.
Reality: “that is just plain pathetic, I thought you were capable of better. That’s about that same as saying “Oh no, they’re introducing airbags, next thing they’ll ban cars!””
So you agree the Slippery Slope argument is stupid? Then why use it in the first place? A personhood amendment is about protecting the unborn in the case of abortion. It is not about instituting a theocracy.
Reality: “correct. The fact that they talk about religion shows that they are religious. They then proceed to use religion as part of their argument.”
No, they don’t, and you haven’t shown me otherwise. Also, are you saying correct that you think they use it as their main argumentation? That was rather vague.
Reality: “Most anti-choicers are religious, even if they don’t use it as their main argument against abortion.”
Most people are religious. So? Impugning people on their character?
Reality: “Many of those are also against contraception, in part on religious grounds – depending to what extent they oppose contraception – and in part on secular grounds – from ‘oh dear, the pill and IUDs kill ‘persons’! to ‘god says you should always be open to the possibility of conception’.”
What the hell does “many” mean? Many pro-choicers support infanticide. Should I worry that pro-abortion laws will devolve into infanticide law?
Reality: “Then there are those who oppose sex outside of marriage – pretty much religion based, which eventually leads us to those who oppose gay marriage – again, pretty much religion based.”
Right, but what does this have to do with abortion? Meaningless.
Reality: “A purely secular train of argument would not follow this train to anywhere near the same extent or in the same volume of people wanting things to go that way. Therefore, the train to theocracy could have started chugging away if the ‘personhood’ amendment had got up. And we haven’t even mentioned the fights over prayer in schools and public meetings and religious imagery on government property.”
What. The. F***. Seriously? Re read what you just wrote. Seriously. Go to sleep, and come back and reread what you wrote. IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL! Who am I kidding, I will have to list of the stupidity for you.
1) You just denounced the Slippery Slope argument, and then used it again.
2) You are painting peoples’ motives based on their other beliefs. So, you are pro-choice, which must mean your support for Health Care Reform is just to kill more fetuses! OBVIOUSLY YOU WANT A TOTAL CHILD DESTRUCTION SOCIETY!!!
3) You are erroneously limiting your Slippery Slope argument to the religious, when there are secular trends in the world just as strong.
4) Gay marriage has already voted against in large number when abortion was supported in large number. No connection there. Many secular types hate homosexuals and are giant bigots.
etc, etc.
Okay, I am done with you. I am talking to a mentally handicapped individual.
Okay, this is my final word on you, Reality.
First, as a disclaimer, I am largely giving up on you because you refused to cooperate when having an argument. I responded to every single counter-argument you made when you purposefully dodged around most of what I said. (Still haven’t answered that question.)
Now, here is my concern. You are obviously not very smart. I am sure you have had this reinforced throughout your entire life. I imagine your “boredom” in high school stemmed from your general lack of intelligence, for example. (You probably did fine in whatever soft major you had at whatever hack college you attended. Oh wait I am sure you were really a double major in Engineering and Creative Writing at Harvard…)
So, my question has to be, if you are aware of your mental incompetence, why, on earth, would you, in any way, position yourself to make a moral judgment about someone’s life. I mean, shouldn’t you at least have the decency and common sense to just, sort of, step aside for the more mentally qualified? You clearly cannot parse simple issues. How do you think you can parse something as complex as the abortion debate? I know, I know, you have some sort of crazed obsession about religious types, and this is one way for you to express that obsession. But seriously, isn’t there a tingling inside of you that says “you know this hard stuff might actually be sort of important. Maybe I should go picket a church instead of bother these people?” Isn’t it in there somewhere?
Anyways, I am done talking with you. You obviously don’t have the ability to actually engage in a conversation. For years I always wanted you to drop into a debate rather than make your asinine drive-bys. What a big disappointment.
Where are the smart pro-choicers? Seriously, where are they? As crazy as he was, I really miss SoMG.
back in a while zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
xalisae,
Perhaps another point for abstinence till marriage, to avoid “hurting others”, would be having firm ground to discuss these things with future children. There are only so many instances of “do as I say, not as I did” that they will grant you.
But, once “the horse is out of the barn”…well, carry on. Or…whatever! :)
Ummm…I don’t really care, Hans. I’ll caution my children against it, but in case that is the way they go, I’m going to make sure they’re safe. I’m not sorry I had sex before I was married and conceived a daughter. I’m not ashamed I had sex with her father, either. I loved him. I genuinely did, and people in love have sex, and that’s not wrong. What I regret most is actually marrying that psychopath, and I’d rather my kids be seen as “promiscuous” by someone like you than be stuck in the hell of being with an abuser for years with the feeling that they will NEVER be able to get away from that person because they are in too deep with him or her. The kind of feeling I’ve been going through for the last 2 years.
The only “do as I say, not as I did” I’ll use is the getting married part. I think that shouldn’t be too much.
no, you’re just avoiding the facts. Yes DNA shows that a fetus is of the human species, yes it can show parentage. I have not disputed these factors. But it does NOT prove that a fetus is a child or a person, they are subjective applications.
No, you’re just running your mind through hoops, playing games with words, and exercising mental gymnastics so that you don’t have to consider yourself as espousing the kind of philosophy you do. “PARENTage” IMPLIES child. In order to be a PARENT, one must have a CHILD. If a test shows that a living human being has a parent that includes you as the father, then congrats, daddy-o, that human being is someone’s child, and as it turns out, he/she is YOUR child, regardless of whether that human being is in utero, on the moon, crossing the finish line at the Tour de France, or behind the counter at a Starbucks making me a venti salted caramel macchiato. What evidence do I have to support that pro-lifers are better parents than pro-choicers? We don’t think there’s a point in the lives of our children that our decision to kill them should be seen as acceptable-nor legal. Thinking that someone can be killed whenever you see fit for no real reason at all and that that killing should be acceptable and legal is exclusive to genuinely caring about that entity, even if you don’t actually decide to kill them. Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, but that’s how it is. That doesn’t take science, it’s common-f…ing-sense. If someone thinks it’s acceptable to kill me as long as I’m asleep, I gather that person doesn’t really give two sh-ts about me, and that’d probably be an accurate assessment, regardless of how much they say they love and value me while I’m awake. Although, if you really need me to do so, I can put some liquids in some test tubes, put on some glasses, and do science so you’ll believe and comprehend what I’m saying.
Even when no money is immediately exchanged, professional relationships that are mutually beneficial exist between abortionists and other doctors.
Reality and the rest of the people on this thread, I want to thank-you for something and I mean this sincerely although I don’t agree with you view on abortion.
You have taught me that I should argue against abortion based on religious grounds. And you have made me aware that I should not hide (although I wasn’t trying to. I was trying to use science and natural reasoning) my religious viewpoint.
I realize that it is my religion that does inform my view point on abortion.
So if you would like to discuss Catholicism please let me know.
I politely ask you Reality to recognize that you also have a value system that informs you. I also would like to ask you to stop bashing people’s value system unless you are prepared to have your value system also bashed. It is not honest to deny that you have value system, or that you hold certain things to have more value.
We need to discuss why we have chosen the value systems we have chosen, and then try to explain to each other how our value systems have led us to our conclusions on abortion.
Given that the Catholic value system is publicly disclosed I would like to inquire about your value system. Perhaps you can tell me about your value system – what are your values? What has led you to support a woman’s right to choose? What are the values that have led you to argue that a fetus is not a person or child?
Reality, since your value system is subjective I need you to tell me about it. Otherwise we will always be talking about how you don’t like my Catholic value system and I will never know what your value system is. I think disclosing your value system will be seen as an act of good faith and it may allow all of us on this thread to have a more civil discussion.
Hi Tyler. Before I move on to responding to your latest comment, I will address just a couple of minor points from earlier.
In regard to Maslow, it is my opinion that in ancient times, those with the mental prowess to seek and hold power did so in some cases by replacing the hoi pollois’ fear of the unknown with a fear of a construct. As science has developed and started explaining the world, the universe and everything, fear of the unknown is replaced by knowledge. So the origins of deity-based faiths were rooted in fear. The Greek gods are an example of this. It is still used to some extent today. This is why it belongs at the lower levels.
“1) You just denounced the Slippery Slope argument, and then used it again.” – no, I denounced the example you gave and provided a similar one to demonstrate that it was facile. What I explained about the push for faith-based strictures to permeate society is self-evident.
Gay marriage is arriving and will spread because there is no argument against it apart from religion.
I am not mentally handicapped and having worked with people with both physical and mental handicaps I find your assertion cheap and shallow.
“I responded to every single counter-argument you made” – yes, but that doesn’t mean you are right.
I was amused by your attack on my level of intelligence and my academic achievements. I know the truth, I think you may have felt threatened.
“Maybe I should go picket a church instead of bother these people?”- I see no need to picket a church, not a huge amount of harm is done within their walls, usually.
“For years I always wanted you to drop into a debate…” – given that I’ve only been visiting this site for a matter of months I find this hard to understand. I also – and please don’t be offended if I am mistaken – don’t remember you being here much if at all, certainly not engaging with myself to any extent.
Now I’ll re-read and respond to your latest comment.
Sorry for the delay Tyler, a client required a good piece of my time.
I sense that some of your more splenetic renderings may have been borne of the frustration induced by your not availing yourself of all your resources due to your efforts to preclude your own religious affiliations.
“You have taught me that I should argue against abortion based on religious grounds” – there are secular arguments which can also be applied, don’t restrict yourself.
“So if you would like to discuss Catholicism please let me know” – no thanks, I’ve observed some very long threads here due to people debating aspects of catholicism and what is right or wrong with various interpretations. Not of great interest to me.
“I also would like to ask you to stop bashing people’s value system unless you are prepared to have your value system also bashed.” – now now, I only ‘bash’ other peoples’ value systems when I find them attempting to foist them onto other peoples’ lives rather than just sticking to them themselves.
If you don’t think non-marital sex is right I would never demand that you partake. But for you (the generic ‘you’, not you specifically) to pontificate against the vast majority who see nothing wrong with partaking, based on your own value system, is something I will protest against or ‘bash’. The same goes for things like abortion and gay marriage.
I do have a value system. It is never permanently fixed in its entirety, I don’t think anyones is.
You will have concluded that my value system is not based on religion. I do not believe in the existence of any god/s and therefore find deity-based religions to be sham constructs.
Throughout time there have been various civilisations with strong deity-based systems who have demonstrated what we would conclude to be violent and murderous practices. There have been a few who have not demonstrated these types of behaviors. Either way, most have scrambled along with various levels of success. There have also been civilisations which have not believed in god/s. These have also had various levels of success.
There are some common themes underlying any societal group which has had any level of success. Some people declare that this is due to adherence to the 10 commandments. We could go further back and observe value sets based on things such as the ‘egyptian book of the dead’, in particular the ‘declaration of innocence’.
What these and numerous other tomes and legends from all sorts of civilisations tell us is that man has an intrinsically established base set of values for safe co-existence which I believe are engendered by the desire to protect oneself. If I’m not going to try to kill you then hopefully you won’t try to kill me. If I don’t steal your property then hopefully you won’t try to steal mine.
So we arrive at the point where in most communities it is considered wrong to kill, steal or commit adultery – although I think that one stems from not stealing another man’s wife in the times when women and marriage were all about property.
In regard’s to abortion, the only elements of religious-based argument I see are selective applications of various interpretations of certain elements of text. I’ve not seen a passage that specifically says you mustn’t termninate fetuses. Even if there was such a passage, it only has any meaning or authority for those who countenance the validity of biblical dictates. Given the amount of selective adherence and non-adherence we see on a number of subjects derived from the bible, I find religious-based arguments against abortion to be less than convincing.
So what are we left with, science and morals?
The science tells us that a fetus is of the human species, that it develops during gestation and that as birth draws nearer it possesses a greater number of attributes which will enable it to continue to grow and develop beyond the womb. This includes factors such as levels of sentience. When I look at the science I see a fetus as a potential ‘person’, something developing towards becoming an ‘entity’. Until a certain stage it is wholly reliant on the womb of the woman carrying it. It is not a ‘child’ or a ‘person’.
From a moral standpoint, it is these factors and a few more which enable me to see nothing wrong with abortion. Once born, we are indeed ‘here’ and on a stand-alone journey. If something befalls us which renders us disabled or heavily restricted in some way, the point is that we have been born and did arrive ‘here’.
This may seem like a weak or pathetic argument to you – I know it does to others here – but I find it to be simple and straighforward rather than weak.
Of course everything has nuances and variables, the world is not black and white, and circumstances change. But as a framework for consideration of the topic, this is where I base myself.
xalisae, another sprouting of subjective opinion with no evidential facts from you.
“If someone thinks it’s acceptable to kill me as long as I’m asleep” – it would be wrong of them, you have achieved personhood status, probably got a birth certificate and all.
“I can put some liquids in some test tubes, put on some glasses, and do science so you’ll believe and comprehend what I’m saying.” – go on then. Some evidential science would be a change.
“Even when no money is immediately exchanged, professional relationships that are mutually beneficial exist between abortionists and other doctors.” – yep, keep stocking up on beans.
Reality,
This is just a quick note.
Thank-you for responding in kind. I am not going to respond right away, not tonight for sure, so don’t feel that you need to stay up. I am going to think about what you have said, sleep on it, and then I will respond. Hopefully my response will be on par with your post.
However, before I respond I have a quick time-saving question for both of us:
Are you familiar with Catholic Natural Law Theory and Catholic Anthropology?
By the way, Reality, in my response I may have a few more questions for you. I hope you won’t mind.
Good night.
Reality,
opps… two last questions before I head off:
1) Do you have any sources for your ideas that you would mind sharing? (For example, do you read Chomsky or Singer?)
2) Aside from pro-choice, does your framework have a name that you know of?
Thanks.
My waking and sleeping hours are ad hoc Tyler.
“Are you familiar with Catholic Natural Law Theory and Catholic Anthropology?” – not particularly, I wouldn’t have a whole lot of faith in them. I’ve seen claims for ‘natural law’ bandied around here which basically amounted to faith-based suppositions.
Ask away.
1) not really, I don’t adhere to any ‘named’ describers of principles. I find Chomsky to be a bit erratic in his sequences and application. Which Singer?
I’ve read widely, including the bible. I observe, I listen and I cogitate. As I said before, I am not young and I have experienced much in life – birth, death, pain, pleasure, travel, a variety of careers and income. I see what drives people and the impacts that has. I recognise the realities of life.
2) no idea really, commonsense? Reality?
Reality, you responded fairly quickly..
If you don’t mind I will ask a few more questions to help me understand our common ground.
Would you agree that some of us are born weaker? Some stronger? Others more beautiful? And still others kinder and/or smarter?
People are born with a variety of traits Tyler. Many of them may alter as we grow, learn and experience life. Some are inherent, some are learned.
A ‘kind’ or sharing child may become a rather venal adult. A child who is easily led may develop leadership skills.
Look at how a lot of people behave whilst going through puberty compared to how they were before and how they are after.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is internal beauty and there is external beauty.
Is a mathematician ‘smarter’ than a talented artist?
xalisae,
…and I’d rather my kids be seen as “promiscuous by someone like you…”
Well, I’d appreciate not being seen as judgmental by “someone like you.” I thought I was making a comment in the abstract. What you, your children, or your prospective children do is up to you and them.
I don’t know how else to show I (sheepishly) have a differing opinion than this: :) :) :)
Reality: In regard to Maslow, it is my opinion that in ancient times, those with the mental prowess to seek and hold power did so in some cases by replacing the hoi pollois’ fear of the unknown with a fear of a construct. As science has developed and started explaining the world, the universe and everything, fear of the unknown is replaced by knowledge. So the origins of deity-based faiths were rooted in fear. The Greek gods are an example of this. It is still used to some extent today. This is why it belongs at the lower levels.
We don’t like uncertainty, and we have fears – of the unknown, etc., and indeed that’s a good bit of the motivation behind religion. I’ve never really agreed with Maslow’s “hierarchy” though – it reflects some of Maslow’s own subjective views and a certain theory of “how societies should be.” Rather than a bottom-to-top linearity, the “needs” can be viewed as being in parallel or being much more separate.
Tyler: You have taught me that I should argue against abortion based on religious grounds.
Tyler, the obvious response here is that okay – the people who share your religious beliefs should then probably not have abortions, and also that your argument, there, would have no necessary application to anybody else.
Reality,
You have established that people can change over the course of their life. That they can be born one way and then change over time into something else: abilities they once had could disappear, abilities they don’t have at birth could appear at a later age, some abilities in certain people may never go away at all and some abilities may never development at all in certain people. Is this a fair understanding of your reply?
I don’t know about me having ‘established’ it Tyler, It is an observation gleaned over many years and seems to be supported by things I’ve heard and read from specialists in the applicable fields.
But generally, yes. Although as I said, nothing is fixed or black and white.
I think it’s time you proferred some ideas/opinions/etc. on some of the questions you have asked.
Well I appreciate your patience Reality… it reveals a fundamental decency.
I would like to continue asking a few more questions but since you asked me to begin offering some ideas I will do so.
If we agree that people change over time and are never the same at any particular moment in their lives it follows that each person is an unique person, different from each and every other person. (This is not only proven to be the case on the physical level of their being through DNA but, as we agreed, the difference of each person is established by your metaphysical understanding of the constant change that takes place in each person’s life.) Given that each person is unique and different we need to establish how people can be considered equal in law. Do you have any thoughts on why persons who are each unique, and are constantly evolving beings, are considered equal to one another in the law?
I don’t think there’s a country on the planet where everyone is considered equal under the law. The platitude may be there but the deliverance isn’t.
Although the statement regarding the success each country has in delivering equality could be verified by examining the deliverance in each country, I will still agree that the statement is true. Good point.
Since by acknowledging that the platitude may be there I will accept that you agree that the goal of just laws is to treat people equally. Would you agree that since equality of persons is a goal of all just laws then establishing who is and isn’t a person is of utmost importance?
Let me put it this way. I believe that people of all races, creeds and colours should be treated equally under the law – I don’t agree with all the laws in some countries mind you.
Before we go any further perhaps I need to remind you that I do not consider the unborn to qualify for the status of ‘personhood’, so they do not come into the equation.
Reality I hope you are ready because I have two questions. Please bare with me, and please try to answer these questions.
1) Which persons make up a race, a creed, and a colour and how old do they have to be part of the identified group?
2) How have you determined that the people of these different groups should be treated equally under the law? (Why do think all African Americans should be treated equally under the law? Why do you feel all Caucasians should be treated equally under the law? Why do you feel an African American and Caucasian should be treated equally under the law? etc…)
Reality I hope you are ready because I have two questions. Please bear with me, and please try to answer these questions.
1) Which persons make up a race, a creed, and a colour and how old do they have to be in order to be part of the identified group?
2) How have you determined that the people of these different groups should be treated equally under the law? (To phrase the question differently: Why do you think all African Americans should be treated equally under the law? Why do you think all Caucasians should be treated equally under the law? Why do you think an African American and Caucasian should be treated equally under the law? etc…)
1) people are generally born of a particular race, creed or colour. Born.
2) because we are all stem from the same genetic species/group. The ‘out of africa’ theory and all that. There is nothing of our genus which justifies saying that one race, creed or colour is better or worse than another.
Reality, how have you come to the conclusion that there is nothing in the genus which justifies saying one race, creed or colour is better or worse another?
Would it be fair to say that for much of human history people saw race as a different genus and therefore instituted slavery and thereby denied the slave races equality under the law?
Would it fair to say that the persecution of Christians reveals the that that Romans did not think Christians equal in law, although they still recognized them as part of the same genus? (For example, the persecuted Romans who converted to Christianity.)
I want to put at least some effort into a response for you Tyler but right now I’m taking off for a couple of days.
I will return and respond.
Given that fields of study such as sociology, anthropology and even biology were in their infancy, its not hard to understand why ‘advanced white people’ saw black hunter gatherers as so vastly different that they felt they were closer to animals such as apes. We are now much better informed.
I think the romans/christians events were more indicative of socio-political circumstances.
If I may take a moment at this point to summarize what we have said:
We have said that fetuses are human beings from the moment of conception/fertilization and that it is their lack of the attribute of sentience that determines that they should not be treated as persons, and therefore, equal under the law.
We agreed that attributes such as color, race, and creed were at one time used to define whether a human being was a human person equal under the law. For example, we acknowledged that at one time an African was determined to lack the attribute of being white or Caucasian and therefore was not treated as equal under the law, etc…
You have pointed out that it is our better understanding of science (in particular biology, sociology, and anthropology) that has led us to conclude that people who have different skin color and racial attributes should not be treated differently under the law, and rather, that they should be treated equally under the law.
So I now would like to ask you why the attributes of skin color and race are currently overlooked while other attributes such as size, level of development, or sentience are not overlooked in determining when a human being is a person, or equal under the law?
Is the level of development attribute somehow more inherently worthy as an attribute of a human person than the person’s skin color? If so, why and who decided that this attribute was so important?
Ultimately, we need to question who decides which attributes will be overlooked and which attributes will not be overlooked when deciding which particular individual human being will be treated equal under the law otherwise this person(s) will have unfettered power.
Furthermore, does it not appear to you that this person, who is engaged in deciding which attributes deserve protection under the law and which attributes do not, is no longer doing science but rather is engaged making biology/science subject to politics?
I would also like to ask you if you believe that science has the ability to determine if something, someone, or some act is good/just/deserving of equal treatment under the law?
I forgot to mention that you also indicated/reveled that people change or evolve or devolve over time.
If we change over time, is it not possible that some fetus may be more developed than some full grown human beings? If you recognizance this to be the case do you want mandatory screening of all fetuses in order to determine the fetus’ level of development? I apologize, but I have to ask for clarity’s sake, do you support aborting all disabled/malformed fetuses?
“it is their lack of the attribute of sentience that determines that they should not be treated as persons” – that is one significant aspect yes.
The same science which shows us that people of differing races, creeds and colours are biologically and neurologically equivalent – we really only differentiate on a visual or cultural level – shows us that a fetus does not have biological or neurological equivalence to someone who has completed gestation. A fetus which is born with a lack of biological or neurological equivalence dies naturally.
“we need to question who decides which attributes will be overlooked and which attributes will not be overlooked” – society has decided. That’s how society works.
“does it not appear to you that this person…….is no longer doing science but rather is engaged making biology/science subject to politics?” – no, biology/science shows us that a fetus lacks equivalence.
“is it not possible that some fetus may be more developed than some full grown human beings?” – someone who enters a vegaetative state through accident or disease for example, has previously survived gestation and birth and therefore did achieve biological and neurological equivalence before fortune intervened. It isn’t always purely black and white though.
Having worked with people born with ‘disabilities’ my position is that it is the choice of the woman. I don’t advocate aborting all fetuses found to have issues but I support the woman’s decision.
“The same science which shows us that people of differing races, creeds and colours are biologically and neurologically equivalent”
How so? Science has not shown this to be the case. Some people have cancer, some people are born without limbs, certain organs are missing or failing, cognitive abilities vary, some are born with certain senses (eyesight, hearing) lacking. Your statement appears to be false – please explain.
“we really only differentiate on a visual or cultural level “
Not true – we have mentally handicapped individuals and they are treated as equals under the law and are not denied life. By your standard they never achieved “biological or neurological equivalence.”
Are you erecting an elitist standard by which all human beings must pass before they are considered human? I am not asking for US society’s perspective as they have already done so, but I am asking for your personal perspective on this.
“has previously survived gestation and birth and therefore did achieve biological and neurological equivalence before fortune intervened.”
Why does personhood have an entry point and not an exit point in your philosophy? Isn’t this inconsistent? But I best ask whether inconsistencies concern you?
“no, biology/science shows us that a fetus lacks equivalence”
Equivalence is a loaded term. Scientifically speaking no two human beings are equivalent. In order to identify equivalence one must engage in bracketing certain abilities/attributes, engage in permitting a certain amount of difference while excluding other differences, which is not science but is politics.
“It isn’t always purely black and white though.”
This comment is a cop out statement and is not worthy of your intelligence.
“I don’t advocate aborting all fetuses found to have issues but I support the woman’s decision.”
Would you support a woman’s decision to abort a fetus based on its gender?
“The same science which shows us that people of differing races, creeds and colours are biologically and neurologically equivalent – we really only differentiate on a visual or cultural level – shows us that a fetus does not have biological or neurological equivalence to someone who has completed gestation.”
People are constantly evolving, developing. Human being development is on a bell curve. A newborn does not have the same level of development as an adult. So I am not sure what this point proves from a legal personhood perspective.
“Are you erecting an elitist standard by which all human beings must pass before they are considered human?” – not at all. You are confusing neurological equivalence with level of intellect.
“Why does personhood have an entry point and not an exit point in your philosophy?” – it does. Birth (or thereabouts, I have mentioned the lack of black and white in these matters) and death.
“This comment is a cop out statement and is not worthy of your intelligence.” – no, its accurate and applicable.
“So I am not sure what this point proves from a legal personhood perspective” – the biological and neurological differences between a fetus and a born child are structurally vast in comparison to these differences between a child and an adult. Sentience, lung function etc.
Reality, could you please explain what you mean by “neurological equivalence”?
“it does. Birth (or thereabouts, I have mentioned the lack of black and white in these matters) and death.”
Could you please explain the shades of grey in legal personhood as you understand them. So far it appears you (again I don’t want the US legal situation) have arbitrarily set birth as the point legal personhood begins. You have already stated that you agree that human life begins at conception.
Please define “sentience”? I am not sure what you mean by this.
Are you trying to argue that it is the baby’s dependency on the Mother that makes it unworthy of legal personhood?
“the biological and neurological differences between a fetus and a born child are structurally vast in comparison to these differences between a child and an adult. Sentience, lung function etc.”
Why do you feel vast structural differences in the biology and neurology of the fetus and the newborn important in determining when legal personhood is established if the biological and neurological vast structural differences between a fetus and newborn represent structural stages that all human life must progress through? How does a biological and neurological scientific fact create a legal prescription? There are vast structural differences between the male reproductive system and the female reproductive system, does that mean we should deny one of the genders legal personhood?
Google ‘sentience’ and have a poke around.
Then google ‘neural pathways’, ‘synapses’ and whatever else pops up that needs investigation.
Then put two and two together.
You’ve had your 20 questions, time to put forward some propositions of your own.
Reality, why don’t you believe in God?