Occupy protestor miscarries after being at the wrong place at the wrong time
I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in. I was screaming, “I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.”
…Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut.
~ Jennifer Fox, a protestor who claims to have miscarried her baby due to police mistreatment she received during an Occupy Seattle march, as quoted by The Stranger, November 22.
The Seattle Police Department is investigating due to “the seriousness of the allegations”.
[HT: Gateway Pundit; Photo Credit: Joshua Trujillo]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
i hope she files a lawsuit and wins because since she was pregnant that was police pepper spraying 2 people. one died because of it.
If true, how sad for the unborn child. However, the mother should not have been putting the life of her child in danger by breaking the law.
hi eric….i cant get videos on my phone. what was she protesting. i was kind of lost on that. i assumed an abortion clinic.
I would like to know more about this woman and this story.
I confess I also don’t know the details of this (I do not have access to the full story at work), but this was at an Occupy movement protest. The police have only pepper sprayed Occupy crowds when they are illegally blocking a public area and fail to follow the police direction to disperse and heed warnings that they will be pepper sprayed.
If I am incorrect in my assumption that this is what happened, I take back my assessment of the woman’s behavior. However, if she was breaking the law and failed to heed police orders to disperse and warnings that she would be sprayed, she is negligent in her unborn child’s death.
If she were so concerned about her child she wouldn’t have been there in the first place. End of story.
It would be interesting to know if this woman is prolife or not. If she is a proabort, it is only a baby when she wants the child. If she is a proabort, she would be the first to say it is wrong for prolifers to block the entrances to a kill mill.
I agree with Eric. If the police ordered her to move and she didn’t, she has only herself to blame.
I just read an article that this woman has refused to show medical documentation that she was pregnant in the first place and then miscarried. Sounds like she might be a drama queen. My apologies if I am wrong.
http://rt.com/usa/news/occupy-miscarriage-fox-seattle-959/
here is the full story from seatle, where the incident occurred and also a 84year old woman was assaulted and pepper sprayed… Regardless if they were protesting, the force used on a 19year old girl clearly stating she was pregnant is ridiculous. And pepeersprayin an 84year old woman! This is not acceptable by any means…the police involved should be investigated.
So how far is it ok for police to go when someone in a crowd doesn’t move fast enough? If they tell you to get your papers and you don’t have them, can they break your arm? If they find you didn’t return the extra $5.00 the teller accidently gave you at the bank, can they shoot you in the leg? Assault is NEVER justified on someone who is NOT BEING VIOLENT. Not moving does NOT justify being chemically assaulted! How do you NOT GET that peaceful disobedience is a good thing? Would you prefer that they make bombs and take hostages? Go home (if you have one) and shut up about the injustice? Our country is falling to sh!t and there are a few brave souls willing to stand up and demand change and all you can say is it’s their fault the police are using excessive force! How incredibly uncompassionate.
Ah, yes, Occupy.
The defecators.
The rapists.
The communists.
The socialists.
The winners of society, all in one camp.
And only costing $13 million to the cities so far.
Yup, it was pure genius for Jennifer Fox to have been there alright.
/s
Praxedes, the loss of a wanted fetus due to brutality is a very bad and evil thing.
Why, Duck? It’s just a bunch of tissue that doesn’t “have membership in the human species” yet, right? You need to get your delusional b.s. straight.
Whatever Xalisae, I’m not delusional, you just disagree with me.
ows protesters are worthless??? Wow you must be a republican. And 13million in damage to cities??? No need to metion the trillions of dollsra of damage endless wars have created huh? Or all the money our givernment just throws away huh? Sure blame ows for the problems cuz we know our governement has never ever been wrong huh? Stop watchin fox news and go talk with the occupiers…maybe then you’ll see how worthless they really ARE NOT!!!!! 84year old woman is worthless? Vetrans? Teachers? Wow….wake up
No, Duck. Going on rampages destroying government property and the property of nearby local business owners who are barely getting by as it is would be the reason. Everyone should have the right to protect themselves from intimidation and their property from theft or damage.
Duck, are you prolife?
Duck, so if it was a wanted fetus, then it was okay for her to miscarry?
I wouldn’t call all the Occupiers “defectives.” However, in many cities, including Philly, they have worn out their welcome.
Courtnay, not “pro-life” according to this blogging site. I’m pro-choice about reproductive health. I think the loss of a woman’s wanted fetus due to brutality is very wrong. I’m against the death penalty, against war, and against anything that causes people to suffer from lack of food, shelter, and health care. In those matters, I’m Pro-life.
I’ve seen enough interviews with the OWS people on youtube to see they are socialists/communists who want to subvert/destroy our current economic system at heart. I don’t see how they can get away with openly stating this kind of thing. McCarthy was right all along. We could use a man like him again.
I believe strongly in protesting. I do not like the communist message of the OWS protesters but I do support their right to protest. HOWEVER, blocking bridges (like they did here in Philly) preventing people from getting to and from work, raping, doing drugs, defecating on public property etc.. NO NO NO. That I absolutely do not support and the police have the right to remove them.
I refrain though from saying that this mom put her baby in danger because I remember a pro-life woman protesting and the police picked her up and threw her and she also miscarried. Was she at fault there?
I am pregnant and participated in the 40 days for life. I did not block PP driveway or do anything illegal but you know there are chump cops out there who like to push pro-lifers around and can get pretty violent. If a cop had shown up and thrown me around and I lost my son would it be my fault too?
I feel like a baby bump is a powerful visual tool to these moms going in to abort. I want to showcase the swelling of life in my belly and prick their maternal consciences. It has worked for other pro-lifers in our town before and so I was there praying and participating. I certainly didn’t want to put my son’s life at risk however.
So I don’t blame this woman and I am truly sorry if she lost her precious baby.
I know, Jessica, all the wasted dollars.
Like $535 million (and counting) to an unsustainable solar panel company.
And the money wasted on trafficking guns to Mexico.
Not to mention all that stimulus $ that brought our unemployment rate back down to 4% (someday, I guess).
And the thousands of jobs created developing our natural resources (after 2014, of course).
Evil Republicans, I tell you.
This woman has a history of claiming to be pregnant when she was not. Please read the story in the Seattle PI article. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Flaws-noted-in-Occupy-Seattle-protester-s-2283349.php
Duck, thanks for answering. Please answer then: what, specifically, about its wantedness makes the fetus worth protecting?
Maybe it’s Bieber’s baby.
Don’t forget the almost $300 million Planned Parenthood gets from the government, too, carder!
That’s fiscal responsibility alright.
Courtnay, of course. Well, without derailing the topic of convo so much. I believe every pregnancy should be wanted. The woman has the right to make whatever choice she wants about her pregnancy. But the fetus doesn’t gain personhood until birth. It was Jespren who on another thread translated that to Pro-life language best for me. Life+Birth=Baby. If a woman wants her fetus, than the loss of that fetus is sad. In a crude analogy, it’s like when you bought a house and maybe closed on it maybe not, but a fire burned it down before you moved in. It’s the loss of a wanted potential home. I hope that explains it. Sometimes I have a hard time contextualizing the thoughts in my head.
But please answer my question, Duck. This woman lost (now we’re finding out, maybe not) her unborn child to “brutality.” What about the fetus’ being wanted conferred upon it the “oughtness” of protection?
I did answer the question. If that didn’t make enough sense for you, then hopefully Jespren can step in again as translator.
But I’m specifically interested in the idea of wantedness=value. If this woman didn’t want her unborn child, or didn’t know she was pregnant, would her miscarriage be a bad thing?
Oh, and one more thing: what is it about BIRTH, specifically, that designates personhood, in your opinion?
Courtnay, I’ve already discussed that at length in previous posts.
What do you think an unplanned fetus is worth, Duck?
Praxedes, you know my answer to that already. But if you really want to hear me say it again, yes, I’m pro-choice. That includes the right for a woman to abort her unwanted fetus.
Responsible and mature pregnant women don’t put themselves in harm’s way, in crowds squaring off with riot police where panic could lead to stampede. What in God’s name was this woman doing in a crowd with riot police ringing the group?
Did the police actually hear her say she was pregnant? It was a mob situation. Perhaps there were others shouting louder and she was not heard. She never should have been there, and in staying until the last possible moment before violence erupted was brinksmanship that cost her her child’s life.
That’s HER responsibility, not that of the police.
Whatever Xalisae, I’m not delusional, you just disagree with me.
It’s not just me who disagrees with you. It’s the whole of scientific discovery. That makes you delusional. There is no biological process which happens at birth that carries an organism from one moment NOT being a member of its species to thereafter BECOMING a member of its species. That organism exists as a member of his or her species from conception. You are delusional.
Science neither agrees nor disagrees with either of us Xalisae. The problem your having here, is recognizing the difference between science and philosophy.
Really now, Duck? Science doesn’t agree with me when I say that a gestating human being is a living organism that is a member of our species? REALLY? Because I think a simple DNA test would prove your statement to be patently false, for starters. Delusional!! Biologically speaking, something that is a living entity grows, takes in nutrients, and expells metabolic waste. The blastocyst does that immediately after conception, so it can be considered a living organism.
You are soooooo delusional, honey.
Duck, Xalisae is not the only one who disagrees with you. And science disagrees with you if you believe a fetus is not a human being and member of our species.
Praxedes, you know my answer to that already. But if you really want to hear me say it again, yes, I’m pro-choice. That includes the right for a woman to abort her unwanted fetus.
Duck, you said, “maybe then you’ll see how worthless they really ARE NOT!!!!! 84year old woman is worthless? Vetrans? Teachers? Wow….wake up”
It seems you see the worth in the 84 year old woman, veterans and teachers. Do you see the worth in all elderly people, all veterans and all teachers or just those that show up to the OWS protests?
My question was what is a fetus WORTH? You didn’t answer the question other than stating you are prochoice, which I already knew.
Tell me exactly what you think an individual fetus is WORTH.
@whatUneverknew: Not moving does NOT justify being chemically assaulted! How do you NOT GET that peaceful disobedience is a good thing?
Okay, let me first say that this incident, if true, indicates a thoroughly wrong judgment on the part of the officers involved. The police have multiple options at their disposal and should have chosen to use another one in this instance.
However, to specifically address your two sentences here, WUNK, they’re…well, they’re wrong. Police officers carry non-lethal tools like pepper spray specifically so they will be able to force people who do not want follow their directions to do so whether they like it or not. And civil disobedience, however peaceful, is disobedience and always carries with it the risk of coming into conflict with law enforcement. While you may feel that the Occupy movement is correct in their assessment of the state of our nation, they’ve chosen to express themselves in a way that is–in some instances–illegal. Not violently illegal, but illegal nevertheless. The police do have a responsibility to uphold the law and have things like pepper spray exactly so that they can force someone to move even when they don’t want to. That’s the point of having such tools in the first place.
Having said that, again, pepper spray is not the only method police have at their disposal. And in this particular case, even if this woman was not pregnant or did not miscarry as a result of the pepper spray, if the officer knew the risk to her child and chose to use pepper spray anyway he is guilty of–at the very least–taking an enormously unwarranted risk. I’m not a fan of the Occupy movement by any stretch, but if this is true it is nothing short of a tragedy and I am appalled at the way some of the comments on this thread have responded to it.
If a woman lost her baby that is terrible and I hope a full investigation can be done. Since there are so many security cameras around these days, the sequence of events may be recorded.
Now, I’m not a republican, but I sick of all the politicians and corporations in general poaching us as if we were all ATMs. However, maybe I’m old, but back in my day we were very specific about what we were protesting, then we went home. I have also been reading about ACORN alumni going so far as to pay their employees to hold signs and pose as occupiers. It reminds me of how Harvey Milk used to hire Jim Jones’ followers by the busload for his rallies. People involved in the occupy movement should have a healthy skepticism of those who would use them for their own gain.
Yep, plus ca change plus c’est la meme chose.
Now, Duck: scientifically and biologically two women who conceived on the same day carry embryos that are the same. Isn’t it totally illogical to legally kill one embryo but not legally kill the other. Either it is alright to destroy the life of a developing human or it is not. Isn’t the whole pro-abortion argument based on emotions rather than science or biology? And is it prudent for a whole international industry to be built around the destruction of humans in their earliest stages of development? It doesn’t seem to be a sound way to run a species, a society, or a world.
*Facepalm*
I never said a fetus isn’t a human fetus. I never said it’s not a member of the species. I said it gets it’s membership into the community of the species at birth. I said it takes Life+Birth=Personhood. Biology just states that DNA is in every living thing. Biology just states that a Human aka Homo sapien sapien woman would gestate another Homo sapien sapien. It doesn’t say what that “means” to a species with the ability to critically think and have/use culture. That’s what philosophy is for.
Praxedes, that’s not my quote
jessica, the article you posted says in part, “Fox tells the Stranger that her physician says that police action led to the incident.”
I am interesting in knowing who this doctor is.
Dude. The next time we hear about a pro-lifer getting hurt while prostesting or sidewalk counseling, I really hope that none of the people who are basically acting like this woman got what she deserved are not hypocritical enough to give the pro-lifer sympathy! Last I checked freedom of assembly was a protected right, and if there was no violence towards the police then I don’t see how brute force is justified. It’s like the UC Davis thing. And no, I don’t agree with a lot of the OWS rhetoric, I am just flabbergasted that so many people are okay with rights being infringed on.
Oops. I need to pay attention. Sorry, Duck. jessica, my post is for you.
I would ask both of you to answer specifically my question of “Tell me exactly what you think an individual fetus is WORTH.”
JackBorsch, that is why I am adamant that pro-life protesters follow the law — no trespassing, no shooting people in Church, no blocking public sidewalks/roads, no damage to property, etc. Illegal actions like that are to be condemned. Unfortunately at UC Davis, the protesters were blocking a public sidewalk illegally and refused to comply with a law officer, also illegal.
Jack, I don’t see anyone saying that this woman got what she deserved but don’t you think people should take some personal responsibility for their actions? I don’t know enough about this story yet but if she was told to move, she should have moved. This doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy for her.
For me, a red flag is raised when she says her doctor says her “incident”(i.e. miscarriage) is due to the pepper spray. I don’t believe many legit doctors will or can pinpoint exactly what causes a specific miscarriage unless there is physical trama to the womb area. I believe that my miscarriage was due to stress going on in my life but would a doctor ever state that he/she was 100% sure that this stress caused a miscarriage?
Something fishy about this whole thing.
For me, a red flag is raised when she says her doctor says her “incident”(i.e. miscarriage) is due to the pepper spray.
I agree Praxedes, it sounds a bit unusual to come to that conclusion so quickly and strikes me that the story is fabricated by a narcissist. Gerard Nadal, if you are still following this thread, can you offer insight on how sure one can be pepper spray is the cause of a miscarriage?
I don’t really care how I come off to anyone. All’s fair in love and war, and this is a war for the heart and soul of our country.
I don’t see anyone saying that this woman got what she deserved…
@Praxedes: Eric came within two steps of saying exactly that in this post where he said “…if she was breaking the law and failed to heed police orders to disperse and warnings that she would be sprayed, she is negligent in her unborn child’s death.” Subvet followed that up with this post saying “If she were so concerned about her child she wouldn’t have been there in the first place. End of story.” And then you capped the whole thing off by actually blaming her (rather than just almost blaming her) in this post with the comment “If the police ordered her to move and she didn’t, she has only herself to blame.”
Suffice to say, that comment made me loose a lot of respect for you. I don’t know if you care or not, but there you are.
Oh, and Daffy Duck:
I never said a fetus isn’t a human fetus. I never said it’s not a member of the species. I said it gets it’s membership into the community of the species at birth.
Oooooh! So you didn’t say that a gestating human isn’t a human fetus, and you didn’t say that he/she was not a member of the species, you just made a statement which excludes it from possessing either of those first two traits and then deny that you’re making an exclusionary statement. LOL! Delusional.
If criteria #1 is met, and criteria #2 is met, then criteria #3 is met as well, regardless of whether or not you want to acknowledge it. This is you simply illustrating your discrimination and support of killing a certain segment of our “community of the species”. Some people saying that africans weren’t actually human beings didn’t make it biological reality or the truth.
Duck says: “I think the loss of a woman’s wanted fetus due to brutality is very wrong. I’m against the death penalty,…”
So, it’s clearly an emotional issue: if a woman’s emotions are one way, the person who kills her baby is legally protected and even earns money for the destruction, but if a woman’s emotions are otherwise, then the person who kills her baby is guilty of something and can be convicted in a court of law.
So, I don’t want my above question to get lost in the shuffle: scientifically and biologically two women who conceived on the same day carry embryos that are the same. Isn’t it totally illogical to legally kill one embryo but not legally kill the other. Either it is alright to destroy the life of a developing human or it is not. Isn’t the whole pro-abortion argument based on emotions rather than science or biology?
Based on your original question Ninek, not just the bolded rehashing of it, It’s not illogical at all. And it’s not based on emotions, it’s based on philosophy. Like the pro-life argument. Both are philosophies. They disagree with each other fundamentally, and because as such, there will always be a division so long as both philosophies exist.
Xalisae, I am not Daffy Duck. He is a cartoon character owned by Warner Brothers.
All isn’t fair in love in war… that is why we have war crimes. And before anyone jumps on me NO I am not comparing the pepper spraying of protesters to a war crime.
Praxedes, of course people should have personal responsibility. I am reacting to the people who think that appropriate force is pepper spraying people for civil disobedience. It’s like if a police officer beat the crap out of someone for jaywalking. There IS such things as excessive force and police brutality, and pepper spraying protesters who don’t disperse is at the least excessive and is bordering on brutality. I just don’t get how people who live in a country with our most basic rights founded on freedom of expression can be so cavalier with these rights being disregarded. Freedoms don’t disappear if you don’t like what’s being said.
“McCarthy was right all along. We could use a man like him again.”
You know, maybe you’re right. Maybe we could use another Joe McCarthy to seek out and destroy people who have the wrong beliefs and belong to “subversive” political organizations. Instead of “communists”, though, how about pro-lifers? We’ve already seen that at least some of them are prepared to use violence, and many more who personally would not go that far are willing to, at the least, refrain from condemning those who do (i.e. tacitly support). Why, just the other day here (in the thread concerning an illegally videotaped abortion), a number of commenters plainly stated that it’s acceptable to violate the laws of man if they conflict with the laws of God. Not a one of them would have the moral courage to take this line of reasoning to its conclusion and (publicly) endorse the killing of abortion doctors and other “enablers”, of course, but the implication is there. Sounds like a potential national security threat to me.
“So, it’s clearly an emotional issue: if a woman’s emotions are one way, the person who kills her baby is legally protected and even earns money for the destruction, but if a woman’s emotions are otherwise, then the person who kills her baby is guilty of something and can be convicted in a court of law.”
Yeah, what’s up with that, ninek? You know what else is ridiculous? If a person wants to have their head shaved, a barber can be legally paid to do it, but if that same barber decided to strap someone down against their will and shave them bald, it would be assault. It’s all just hair, right? Why should one person’s hair be treated differently than another’s because of something stupid and irrelevant like what the owner of that hair wants to do with it? You’ve really discovered a gaping flaw in our legal system. Bravo.
Xalisae, you may want to get out a dictionary, and look up each word in my sentences, and then critically think about how adding or subtracting a word from a sentence can change the whole meaning. When you get done with that, I’ll be glad to hear what attempt at logically dismantalling my words you have.
Jack – I get what you are saying about freedoms and generally agree. But if the protesters are engaging in illegal behavior, even if it is non-violent,, then the police have the right to enforce the law. For example, if we are outside an abortion mill with our arms linked physically blocking entry, I am quite certain that we may face similar consequences. We may choose to act that way anyway and face the consequences, but that is our choice and our responsibility. If you have been involved in any pro-life demonstrations, I am sure you have been told what the rules are and to follow the directions of any law enforcement personnel should they get involved. Now the OWS protestors or anyone else has the right to engage in such civil disobedience if they choose. But I do not consider pepper spray to be unreasonable force if they refuse to comply with the orders of law enforcement personnel. Sorry.
You’re using faulty logic again, Joan. The baby’s molecules (including hair) belong to himself, even if he’s only a few minutes, days, weeks, or months post-conception. When an abortionist destroys his little body, he is doing something far more brutal than giving him a bad haircut. But nice of you to invoke Kermit Gosnell and his trusty scissors in your argument.
Duck, I didn’t rehash the bold words: I copied and pasted.
Abortion fans, abortion fans, what is to be done for you? Your logic is faulty and your arguments inconsistent and hypocritical. You really do embarrass yourselves.
I have yet to see a single abortion advocate make a convincing argument for their position.
Duck wrote:
Based on your original question Ninek, not just the bolded rehashing of it, It’s not illogical at all. And it’s not based on emotions, it’s based on philosophy. Like the pro-life argument. Both are philosophies. They disagree with each other fundamentally, and because as such, there will always be a division so long as both philosophies exist.
Half a moment, here. What you say is true, at least in one sense (i.e. the abortion-tolerant and anti-abortion views are philosophy-based, and they are diametrically opposed)… but that really says nothing of any great importance, since it could be said about virtually any two views which are not utterly identical to each other. “2 + 2 = 4″ and “2 + 2 = 5″ are diametrically opposed statements, for example, and both are based on a “philosophy” (in the loose sense of the word) which underpins mathematics. But surely you see a difference? First, these two statements cannot possibly be true simultaneously, since they contradict; second, the first is true and the second is false, which is hardly a trivial matter!
And yet, the two (mathematical statements) would pass your test of “two philosophy-based comments which differ, and cannot be reconciled.” From this, I infer that you conclude the issue to be one of “MERE” philosophy (i.e. unverifiable by any objective standard, and “up for grabs”, as it were)? If so, then I’m afraid I must disagree; the abortion-tolerant position (as Ninek, et al., are trying to explain, slowly and methodically) is either internally inconsistent (i.e. it degenerates to mere personal taste) or it is utterly vacuous (i.e. it degenerates into utter moral relativism, which vacates all talk of “morality/ethics” at all), and it cannot possibly be valid as it currently stands.
(Ironically enough, I may not be able to reply to this for some time; my wife and I are heading out-of-town for a visit with relatives; I’ll try to reply when I can.)
Ninek, my apologies, you are correct about the copy and paste.
As for the “make a convincing argument for their position” philosophical bias will always cause a divide on this issue and others. So long as an argument conflicts with someone’s bias, they’ll either adapt their bias or reject the argument. While you all may think I just don’t understand you, you’re incorrect. I understand perfectly. Especially many pro-lifer’s inability to distinguish between science and philosophy and morality and legality on this issue. That Ninek, is probably why you have “yet” to see a convincing argument. With your philosophical bias you may never see it, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Paladin, if you really want, (it’ll take a few days) I can ask my friend who I refer to as the logic in math and philosophy arguments king to dissect your comparison of my words to mathematical symbology. Outside of that, try to use an argument that isn’t widely accepted by everyone but the most fringe of mathemeticians as universally true to make your point.
Alice, do you expect the police to uphold the laws or only the laws you agree with. These protesters were not beat or shot or even tazed, they were pepper sprayed.
What do you advise police to do when people are breaking the law?
@Praxedes: Not only did I never say the police should only uphold laws I like, I never came remotely close to doing so. Where you came up with that, I have no idea, but it is quite the impressive straw man. Read my first post, where I already answered your question.
Alice:I see in your first post where you say, The police have multiple options at their disposal and should have chosen to use another one in this instance and where you also say this Having said that, again, pepper spray is not the only method police have at their disposal
but I am not seeing where you answered my question of “what do you advise the police to do when people are breaking the law?”
My 8th grade biology teacher never told us: you failed my quiz because of your bias!
Since you cannot make a convincing argument, you blame my so-called bias. The fail is on your inability to rationalize why one embryo can be destroyed but one other embryo cannot. Epic fail, Duck.
Now, abortion advocates use anxiety and fear mongering on a regular basis to raise money and support. But Duck here wishes the pro-abortion position were based on some kind of intelligent rationalization. But Duck can’t articulate it or explain it. Of course not!
2 + 2 = 4 or it doesn’t. You don’t need a bias or lack of bias to understand basic biology. Two embryos are the same or they aren’t. The emotional attitude of their mother has no bearing on their biological existence. But abortion advocates want to convince us that one embryo is fated to die because of his unwantedness. Wanted vs unwanted is not philosophical: it is emotional. For example: “I can’t afford this baby” is not a philosophical rationale: it is an expression of a mother’s emotional anxiety over her financial situation.
Abortion is a fail. Abortion advocacy is an epic fail.
Ninek, You’re only proving my point about not able to understand philosophical bias and it’s effect on the brain and logic.
If you really want to be literal Ninek, no two embroys are the same except identical twins. All embryos are subject to survival based on many factors of biology and philosophy, as well as economic and cultural.
Also, as I’ve stated before, biology has nothing to do with philosophy. Biology will tell you the species, it doesn’t tell you what that “means”.
@Praxedes: In this particular case, I would say offer this woman a choice. She’s stated she’s pregnant, therefore any violent action risks harm to her child. So she either moves voluntarily or is immediately arrested and charged with [insert illegal thing the Occupy people were doing to require police intervention in the first place]. I did not say never use pepper spray. I very clearly said that it’s appropriate in some cases. But the police have a responsibility to temper their use of force so that it is appropriate to the situation. With someone who may be pregnant, actions that can cause them to miscarry are not warranted unless the officer is forced to use them (like, for example, if this woman were violent).
And I really should never have let you change the subject to this in the first place. Because my thoughts on the appropriateness of police force in this or any other case have nothing to do with the fact that for someone who “didn’t see” any examples of people blaming this woman for the death of her child, you certainly didn’t waste any time blaming this woman for the death of her child. If this woman’s story is true, she just lost her baby. And you’re getting snippy on her for it.
What are unborn identical twins WORTH?
Again, Duck, you have’t answered what you think an individual fetus is WORTH. Maybe you can tell me what one or both twins are worth.
Feel free to bring in any of your philosophical arguments. Heck, bring in all of them. What do you think the unborn are WORTH?
Alice, I think this woman was offered a choice. Move or don’t move. She choose to not move.
And I really should never have let you change the subject to this in the first place.
Alice, you didn’t LET me do anything. You are too funny.
I’m not getting snippy at this woman. I’m getting snippy at you.
Praxedes, I’ve already made pretty clear I think my views on abortion, reproductive rights, personhood, etc. From that I’m pretty sure that your attempt to back me into a corner to define their worth is a moot point from my philosophical viewpoint, from the point of my logical arguments, and from the legal standpoint. So, get your kicks on that conundrum on your own.
Oh, how easy it is to be a moral relativist. Only when someone “wants” a fetus and the fetus gets killed, it’s “evil”. Pure rubbish.
the point that people are making is that humans have worth – and pro-lifers view human worth for all humans from conception – no matter their age, location, functionality, sex, race, economic situation, whether people want them or love them. If they are human, in any stage of life, that human is worth protecting. It does not matter the demeanor of the mother, father, grandparents, sisters, brothers, employers, neighbors or any such thing.
If you are human – you are worth protecting.
abortion is a purposeful event – one that stops a developing human from continuing to exist or live. It’s deliberate, purposeful and causes that human’s destruction.
We are not talking philosophy here. This is real life….If you are human, are you worth protecting? And if there are criteria, who gets to make that decision – and if that decision is intrinsically unfair or destructive or harmful – why are we allowing that decision?
We are protecting humans here – and all humans have worth. When we start down the path that denies humans their worth based on their gender, disability, wantability, measurability, economics, location, race, ethnicity, economics etc., we are all at risk.
Duck, since you say that you are pro-choice, and the dividing line for you is birth – since birth is movable and different with every pregnancy – why is that your line for life, and why do other humans not qualify for protection? It is the same human before as after birth. Also – considering that a Princeton professor thinks that parents should be able to determine if their born infants should live within 30 -60 days of birth, what do you think about that?
please note:
Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta said: ‘ and if we can accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell people not to kill one another?… any country that accepts abortion is not teaching it’s people to love, but to use violence to get what they want.’ National Prayer Breakfast, Washington DC, Feb 3 1994
Alice, I think this woman was offered a choice. Move or don’t move. She choose to not move.
But the second part of Alice’s answer was: if she doesn’t move, arrest her. Personally I think that we should arrest people when they break the law, and if they resist arrest only then should we even consider using violent means of control. Arresting people is the appropriate response to illegal activity. Violence is the appropriate response to people who resist arrest in violent ways. (I don’t really know how you can resist arrest in non-violent ways. You can sit there and refuse to move but they can cuff you and haul you onto the bus anyway. Maybe I’m just not being very creative though!)
I work in Times Square, and in October the protest came here for a day. I had a really hard time getting anywhere quickly, through the crowd. About two hours after my dinner break, during which I’d been slowly wending my way to where I needed to go and certainly would not have been able to leave quickly if asked, the police began telling people to disperse or be arrested. Lots of people began to disperse but it was not easy to get everyone out immediately. Some people stayed behind and chose to be arrested. As the crowd was given time to clear out, it became apparent which people were cooperating with the law and which weren’t. No one, to my knowledge, was pepper sprayed because no one required more than arrest. The people who didn’t want to break the law (and assembling publicly is not breaking the law, at least not until the police tell you to go home) were given time to clear out, and the people who broke the law got arrested. The end.
I don’t know the specifics of this case so I don’t know if the woman got violent and resisted arrest. Maybe she was just in the wrong place. Heck, I saw a video of a woman who had been using a BoA ATM and who got swept up in a crowd of protestors at the bank, and got arrested even though she was begging the police to listen to her. Would they have been justified in pepper-spraying her just because she was there and not immediately holding her hands out for cuffs? Just because she was confused and couldn’t get away and wanted to tell someone she shouldn’t be arrested?
Again, this woman honestly sounds to me a bit suspect. Her story has been changing and at this time I do not believe her – I don’t NOT believe her but I am not taking her side. I’m just saying, there are certainly options before spraying chemicals in someone’s face. Police are meant to stabilize society and maintain a lawful sense of peace; if they approach a non-violent person, even if that person is doing something illegal, and engage in violent behavior, they are escalating the situation.
You deflect back on my supposed lack of understanding, but you have not made any convincing argument. Fail times 3 today. Which proves my point: abortion advocates have no point.
One embryo is destroyed because of emotional motivation: the mother has so much anxiety she allows a professional hired killer to destroy her child. Another mother may have some anxiety but allows her child to develop without interference from an abortionist. What is the difference between these two children? NOTHING except the emotional state of their mothers. Which again proves that abortion is irrational. The industry is based on the expoitation of womens’ anxiety for monetary gain.
Ain’t nuthin’ philosophical about it.
Three strikes and you’re out. You fail. I do not. You can comment again to get the last word, but your fail stands.
joy, addressing point by point…
there is worth to humans and humanity. I’ve answered plenty on the subject, and didn’t feel I needed to be backed into a corner by Paraxedes with an argument that is moot considering my views on the aforementioned topics.
abortion is a purposeful event, that is correct.
it still very much is philosophy. it’s just that your philosophical viewpoint makes it seem like a life or death argument and a slippery slope. Real life has millions of philosophical viewpoints interacting with each other.
as for my view of birth, it is the only thing that everyone MUST go through. as for the princeton professor, everyone is entitled to their own personal views. I’m sure however, that the professor would follow a civic duty of obeying the laws of the land and if breaks them would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
as for mother teresa, don’t even get me started on her and violence towards those in need. she’s a bit of a fraud when it comes to her “aide” to the poor
Praxedes, has anyone besides me ever told you that they seem absolutely unable to distinguish you from Paladin? It’s so strange! I know that I adore both of you and that I keep an eye out for both of your comments, and I know that you’re very different people (ie different genders) despite both being Catholics with a P username. It’s like I have some weird mental block or something. I need to come up with a handy way to remember which of you is which.
I just thought I should tell you that! I think it a lot and I always worry that I’m going to say something to one of you that I intend for the other, lol.
Lori Piper also gets lumped in with you two for some reason but mercifully I think of her as Lori and that saves me there.
Maybe we could use another Joe McCarthy to seek out and destroy people who have the wrong beliefs and belong to “subversive” political organizations. Instead of “communists”, though, how about pro-lifers?
No, just those who wish to bring about the downfall of the United States as we know it, joan. Pro-Lifers support justice, defense of the defenseless, and the right to life. Those are American principles.
Ninek, you only want abortion to be irrational so you can compartamentalize it. You only want the difference between the two to be emotions so you can simplify it. It’s a complicated issue with many contributing factors. If you don’t recognize that last statement, you’ll never hear an argument that seems worthwhile to you.
It’s not a complicated issue. It should never be legal for a parent to kill or have their minor/very young child/offspring killed because the parent(s) opt not to take care of them. Period. See? Not difficult at all. Very simple, in fact.
Very simply your personal morality viewpoint Xalisae
Alexandra, I don’t know all the details of this situation either but I think the police telling people to move should be enough. I believe a few warnings were probably given but I don’t know. I think there will always be a percentage of protesters that will complain harm done and it wouldn’t matter whether they were sprayed or physically moved as gently as possible.
If the police made this woman lie on her stomach to put her arms behind her back, she may have later claimed this caused her miscarriage.
Watching the video of her hysterically screaming is another red flag to me. I’ve seen someone sprayed and they didn’t behave like this. I believe many police volunteer to go through getting sprayed (and tazed) during their training as well.
I have had a rough couple weeks so your compliments have come at a perfect time and I thank you kindly. I also have my favorites whose comments I check for and you are on my list as well. No, no one has ever mistaken me for Paladin before that I can remember but I am flattered that you have.
You may have noticed that I get a few people mixed up myself (almost daily with my sons!). Even once on this thread. Sorry again, Duck and jessica.
No problem about the mixups Praxedes, it happens sometimes.
@Joy-
Mother Theresa was a fraud. She caused so much more harm than good. If you have been fooled by the pageantry surrounding her, you’re not alone! I do hope you’ll educate yourself on the subject of that woman.
Peace!
Praxedes, as for your comment about the effects of pepper spray… you may actually want to look up the specs on it. I mean everyone reacts differently to every situation, but pepper spray is FAR worse than the infamous Ghost Pepper on the Scoville scale. You can you tube videos of people dumb enough to try eating the Ghost Pepper. You can extrapolate what the effects of pepper spray would be from those videos.
joyfromillinois, I tried on another thread to get Duck to please explain scientifically what happens at birth that takes an organism from “potential human life” (CC’s words) to actual human life. Duck could not. We went round and round. It was exhausting but a simple argument or explanation was never forthcoming.
Why for instance, is one baby born at 24 weeks a human being and member of the “community” but another baby also at 24 weeks is just “potential human life” and can be killed just because he/she has not descended a magical vagina. Neither CC nor Duck could explain it.
It is irrational. Its absurd and its scary to think there are people like Duck who actually think other human beings “wanting” you can allow or prohibit you from entering the “human community”. Hitler had that mindset with the Jews. He didn’t want them in the human community so he called them non-persons and proceeded to kill them, along with Catholics, gays, Slovaks, etc… Whoever didn’t tickle Hitler’s fancy was deemed a non-person by his arbitrary standards and since he had an army to do his bidding millions of people died. And Duck just doesn’t get it. Scary.
Sydney, it’s a slipperly slope argument made only by the “pro-birth” crowd that ever calls someone who believes in Life+Birth=Personhood a step in the direction toward Hitler. That despicable man has nothing to do with my philosophical reason to believe what I believe.
Hahahahhahaha! The Hitler killing the Jews as a parallel to abortion argument is so ridiculous. I don’t even know where to start!
Also, even Jespren who took your side of the debate, told you, that I did answer the question you asked, you just didn’t think I did because of your personal bias. Did you not remember that part of the thread?
In case you didn’t read the article before posting, this is taken from the article
“, an officer with the Seattle Police Department lifted his foot, kicking her in the stomach. A moment later, another office charged at her on his bicycle, again attacking her and her unborn child. “ That is in addition to the pepper spray. As a former obstetrical nurse, I believe this warrants investigation. We may all have our opinion of the protesters, but that was an unborn child, and since when did we allow our police to kick young women in the stomach? Police protocol states that pepper spray should only be used in case of a physical threat, or violence, not for crowd control.
It should never be legal for a parent to kill or have their minor/very young child/offspring killed because the parent(s) opt not to take care of them.
Very simply your personal morality viewpoint Xalisae
I love it when you guys open your mouths and say crap like this. It reveals you for the repugnant monsters you are, and makes my task so much easier. Yes. Keep posting your true feelings that the act of killing or having your own child killed is not some terrible evil, but a personal lifestyle choice. It’s no wonder the world is getting more and more pro-life all the time. The notions of you and your ilk are stomach-churningly repulsive.
Praxedes, I’m so sorry you’ve had a rough couple of weeks! I always feel like every feeling – good and bad – is amplified during the holiday season. I feel the most loved, and the happiest, but also sometimes the loneliest and the most hopeless during these two months. I hope you get through the next few weeks with more good feelings than bad.
As for the protestor situation, I think the police telling people to move should be enough, absolutely. I am very very pro-NYPD and even back in kindergarten I once told the teacher that I thought our outdoor playtime might be more enjoyable if a few more ‘rules’ were in place!
Obviously not everyone is like me and not everyone is going to obediently move when a policeman tells her to, and that sucks. I just think that arresting people should be the first line of action when people are disobedient in illegal ways. I don’t really see any reason to go to violence before it is necessary. Just because one person is wrong doesn’t immediately make the other right.
The woman seems histrionic and attention-seeking, to me, honestly, but I will withhold my all-important official judgment until I know more. If she was fighting the police off or whatever then I can see why they would feel the need to go to the pepper spray, but if she was just standing somewhere, I think they should have exhausted nonviolent means first.
The world is getting more and more prolife all the time? Did you ask all 7 billion people? No? Oh, didn’t think so. I’m sure if you tried to explain to them all what you were talking about many of them would look at you (forgiving the language factor for a moment) with a confused look on their face, because their individual cultural/philosophical/moral/etc beliefs would have no concept of existence before birth. But what do I know, I’m just a cultural anthropologist.
I read the other article that said the police were familiar with this woman and she has a history of crying wolf about pregnancy to get her way. I’m sure “wanted feti” magically spring forth from this woman whenever she wants to get out of some trouble.
This story is a mess, for sure. I didn’t believe it right off the bat, but regardless, the police have been HORRIBLE to protesters. The lies about the damage, etc are insane. Anyone who believes them (and is over the age at which we realize the Easter Bunny isn’t real) is seriously unintelligent.
Oh, I’m sorry, I meant “my country is getting more pro-life all the time”, and not because I asked personally, but because I keep up on the latest polls from Gallop and Guttmacher.
Yes, as the story got more explained the woman is apparantly a fraud. But, it is interesting to watch the regulars of this blog struggle to decide whether to side with the protester and her “fetus” and be upset about the brutality, or they can continue to see everyone as the criminals and welcome the brutality even at the expense of a “fetus”.
Hmmm, the only problem with polls lately, has been that they still largely depend on using land lines for phone polling. Fewer and fewer people keep land lines anymore, and the biggest demographic that does is the elderly, who are statistically more conservative than other demographic groups.
The “right to life” has never been absolute, in practice. Otherwise, the US would remain politically neutral during armed conflicts, ban the death penalty, make lethal force in self-defense illegal, and outlaw the sale of firearms. The matter is actually QUITE complicated. The “right to life” is not something that can be cleared up by reading a chart of embryo development like a cup full of tea leaves that can magically give us the answers to knotty questions about morality.
If indeed this woman was being peaceful and it is proven that she was kicked in the stomach by anyone, the assaulter should absolutely be held accountable.
If this woman is lying about being pregnant and/or about being kicked, she should be held accountable for the ensuing drama. With all the cameras, this shouldn’t be too hard to prove one way or another. Has anyone seen a video of her being kicked?
I do question any doctor(s) who attribute the alleged miscarriage to incidents that have yet to be fully investigated. Kinda reminds me of the Wisconsin “doctors” who wrote excuses for the “sick” teachers.
The unborn don’t miraculously become human once they are outside their mothers any more than bullies and drama queens miraculously stop bullying and playing games the day they turn 18. It doesn’t matter if they are a veteran, lawyer, teacher, or police officer. Bullies and game players can be found among all of them and should be held accountable.
I’m looking forward to the truth coming out on this one.
Duck, I’m sorry you cannot see the parallel between your view of people and Hitlers but I assure you its there. Anyone who can look at an unborn child and say “yes, that is a human being but that is not a person.” and then drone on and on about philosophy is right out there in crazy land with nutso maniacs like Hitler. He used almost all the same arguments that you pro-abortion types use to defend dismembering unborn human beings.
Hitler couldn’t deny that Jews were human but they weren’t PEOPLE you see. Just like you say about unborn humans. How do you not get it????
And let me explain further Duck, do I believe you are going to go out and kill millions of people like Hitler did? No. Probably cause you don’t have an army the way Hitler did. But your coldness and narcissism is just the same. 53 million dead in our country from abortion alone. You clearly see the little arms and legs, hands and feet. You know biology (I guess you do) and how each of us started at the union of egg and sperm yet while you admit the unborn are human you protest that they are not people.
So maybe you won’t be hated though out history like Hitler is but I believe you share the same sickness of soul. You applaud the murder of other human beings.
Sydney, Hitler’s pro-natalist stance dictated that Aryan women were nothing more than baby-making machines for the Third Reich. If you’re going to draw parallels between Nazism and the pro-choice movement, then you’ve got to be prepared for these other comparisons to be made that highlight the absurdity of this “metaphor.”
Apples and oranges.
You all think some human beings are “people” and others are not. That is absolutely the same as the Nazis.
We, however, do not see women as “baby-making machines”, otherwise we’d be demanding that every woman get pregnant as often as possible and reproduce as much as possible, which is not our position at all. We only wish to see every innocent human being’s life protected in our respective countries uniformly under the law, which is entirely independent of demanding anything from any woman, unlike the Nazi stance of Aryan women as “baby-making machines”. Our position would not demand a certain action of a woman in violation of her rights, but prevent her from carrying out any harmful action against her child which is an entirely passive stance as pregnancy and childbirth is the default of sexual reproduction already initiated by the woman in question and the child’s father.
baby-making machines
???? When and how exactly does a woman make a baby, Megan?
When and how was your baby made? It couldn’t have been Hitler who forced you into making a baby. He killed himself in 1945.
Megan, I am pregnant. I love being pregnant. I love my baby. I don’t consider myself a “baby making machine” just because I know my son is a unique, innocent human being that doesn’t deserve to be dismembered based on my whims.
You really have some deep-seated issues with a woman’s fertility. You think its so derogatory for a woman to conceive, carry and birth a child.
And also, btw, Xalisae, you said it perfectly. I could really care less how many kids you have Megan. I don’t demand you become a “baby making machine”. But I don’t want you to kill your children. I don’t want any child to be killed. Don’t get pregnant, I don’t care. But once you’re pregnant there is an innocent human being in your womb and I care very much if you kill him/her.
About the comparing me to Hitler because I don’t consider a fetus a person… Hitler’s Jews were never in his body. A fetus is in a woman’s body. There is a very LARGE difference between those two arguments.
The Jews were also not Hitler’s biological children who were placed in his body by an act of his body and through no fault of their own.
When and how exactly does a woman make a baby, Megan?
Megan? Megan? Can you hear me?
A fetus, an adolescent, and a geriatric all have the right to life. A rose by any other name still smells as sweet.
That’s my philosophy.
Yes, as the story got more explained the woman is apparantly a fraud. But, it is interesting to watch the regulars of this blog struggle to decide whether to side with the protester and her “fetus” and be upset about the brutality, or they can continue to see everyone as the criminals and welcome the brutality even at the expense of a “fetus”.
Not in my case. I began with the understanding that the OWS crowd is a bunch of degenerates who are going around sh!tting on police cars (saw the pictures), destroying the property of business owners and attempting to extort goods and favors from them (read the testimony of a small business owner in a WSJ article), having sex on floors and streets like animals (saw pics), overdosing on drugs (Occupy Portland police reports), etc., and coming to the conclusion that she was lying right out of the gate was not very difficult when you have any sort of critical thinking skills whatsoever.
But what do I know, I’m just a cultural anthropologist.
Oh. So that explains why you’re sympathetic to these low-lives AND why you’re pro-legal-abortion. You’re in the same boat they are. You’ve had your scruples “educated” out of you and replaced with meaningless factoids about sh!t that doesn’t matter. You’ve opted for what is widely accepted (“culture”) rather than what is true. So sad. You’re in love with moral relativity. What a waste.
Hmmm, the only problem with polls lately, has been that they still largely depend on using land lines for phone polling. Fewer and fewer people keep land lines anymore, and the biggest demographic that does is the elderly, whoare statistically more conservative than other demographic groups.
Oh, denial. I never tire of seeing your many different flavors on such a broad array of topics employed by the poor-choice crowd. Not going our way? Polls must be skewed! I can speak for anyone else, but I know that my fiance and I are both pro-life (moderate) conservatives, both in our very early 30′s, and have a land-line which we’ve used for polling. No AARP membership for us. Sorry! Did you ever stop to think that maybe we who’ve been born post-Roe just don’t like the idea that our lives weren’t always protected by law? We don’t enjoy being a mere whim of our parents to be destroyed as they saw fit? That maybe we look at our children and see them for more than just a “choice”? NAAAH. It’s gotta be those damned old people trying to oppress us. XD
I *can’t* speak for anyone else
About the comparing me to Hitler because I don’t consider a fetus a person… Hitler’s Jews were never in his body. A fetus is in a woman’s body. There is a very LARGE difference between those two arguments.
Every single group that has ever been called “not a person” had that argument defended by those who tried to unperson them exactly this way. “But none of those people were Native Americans!” “But none of those people were black!” “But none of those people were Armenian!” “But none of those people were Jews!” It is the argument itself that is the problem, not the group that you apply it to. The only reason anyone would start fudging on which groups of human beings are people and which aren’t is so they can justify harming the “not-people” in one way or another. That’s the only thing this argument is useful for.
Xalisae,
The fetus is not always the goal of sex. Sorry to break it to you, but humans have the right to sex with or without the goal of children in mind. So, the fetus is still far different than Hitler’s Jews when your crowd likes to say I’m like Hitler.
As for OWS you’re entitled to your opinion about what a few bad apples say about the whole bunch. You are correct though in saying that from the beginning that was your critique.
As for being a cultural anthropologist, that doesn’t automatically explain why I’m “sympathetic to these low-lives AND pro-legal abortion”. I’ve been sympathetic to those exploited by the rich to get wealth my whole life. I’ve been pro-choice my whole life. Your distaste for my college education only shows in my best guess a case of sour grapes.
As for my comment about the polls. I didn’t say that the only people with land lines to respond to polls are the elderly. What I did say, and you quoted me, “fewer and fewer people keep land lines anymore, and the biggest demographic that does is the elderly”. If you’re going to make assumptions about what I say, and then quote me directly, you might want to make sure my quote matches your assumptions.
Alice, if that’s the only thing that argument is good for, than it is a slippery slope logical fallacy argument with no basis in reality.
Erm, no. That argument is not a slippery slope. I have been trying to pin down which flavor of fallacy it is for a while now, actually. It’s still cooking, but I’ll get back to you when I nail it down. (Yes, I realize you’re trying accuse me of a slippery slope, which also is not this. You actually are using this argument to oppress a weaker group–the unborn–right now. It’s only a slippery slope when the potential disaster hasn’t happened yet or when the person using it doesn’t establish the chain of logical implications.)
However, even assuming it is logically valid, that still doesn’t make it sound. Or, in not-logical-argument-terms, even if you follow the rules of logic, in this case, you’re only using them to arrive at the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Sorry to break it to you, but humans have the right to sex with or without the goal of children in mind.
Humans have a right to sex but not a right to life? Do you agree with a 14 year old having any kind of sex with a 40 year old? What if the teen agrees to it? After all, as a human she/he has a RIGHT TO SEX!!!
Your distaste for my college education only shows in my best guess a case of sour grapes.
That’s your best guess? Tell us your worst guess and you might be more accurate. Your narcissim is again rearing it’s ugly head. Is it too far of a stretch for you to comprehend, Duck, that no prolifer wants what you have (and what you don’t have)? I have pity and compassion for you, but I think I’m safe in saying that no prolifer here is jealous of you.
Megan seems to have left the building. Since you have that all-important college degree to fall back on, maybe you can answer for her:
How and when was Megan’s baby made?
Alice you are correct in the fact that I may have mislabeled it with the slippery slope. It is however, still a logical fallacy.
Praxedes, way to jump on the since humans have a right to sex, I must mean all forms of sexual acts even those that are non-consensual legally or literally, those of power and dominance, those of abuse, those of happiness, etc. Hmmm… it’s impossible for me to be just making a simple statement that literally meant just the statement. How crass of you to make that jump. Yes humans have a right to sex. But as I always say, consent (legal and literal) is sexy.
As for my comments about the college education part… no, I literally meant what I said based on her choice of words and context in criticizing what I’ve learned, and then basing that as my reason for having the beliefs I do. She can answer that for herself, without your further assumptions.
As for Megan’s question, it is possible that she went to bed last night, and that since it’s a holiday is busy. There are other people on this very thread who have already stated they may not be free to comment further because of the holiday. Also, you can take Megan’s question up with her, as I am not her.
duck did you go to college? get a refund asap.
Why would I need a refund heather?
Also, you can take Megan’s question up with her, as I am not her.
It’s not just Megan’s question. I have now posed the question to you, Mighty Duck.
Another question posed just to you: Does a 13 year old have a right to sex with another consenting 13 year old?
Two 13 year olds don’t have legal consentability (I’m pretty sure that’s the case in all 50 states and the district, but I could be wrong). However, they do have the right to behave as they wish and suffer the civic consequences. Two 13 year olds having sex consentually (non legal consent) happens more than I personally would like, but I don’t have the physical capability of talking to every 13 year old about how much better it is to wait til you’re an adult.
I don’t know when Megan’s baby was made. I’m not her.
As for the how, I’ve already told you, science tells you what something does, how it works, how it interacts, what its components are, etc. Science does not tell you what that “means”. That’s philosophy’s job.
@Duck: Again, no. You seem to have lost the thread of the plot a bit.
1. You say, “The unborn are human but they are not people.”
2. Sydney said, “That is precisely the same argument used by Hitler to justify his actions against the Jews.”
3. You said, “ACK! HOW DARE YOU COMPARE ME TO HIM? THIS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!” (Admittedly, with fewer capitals.)
4. Sydney said, “No, it isn’t. You’re using the same argument, just filling different words in the blanks.”
5. You said, “Well, it totally applies in this case because I’m only applying it to the unborn.”
6. I said, “In every case this argument is used, it is only applied to a target group so that oppression against them can be justified. This argument only exists to justify oppression.”
7. You say, “That’s totally a fallacy!”
So, that’s where we are now. You have made the claim that me stating this argument’s purpose is to justify oppression or violence against a group is a fallacy. That’s your claim, so back it up. What fallacy? (SPOILER: It isn’t one. It could be wrong, but that doesn’t make it a fallacy.) I will grant that it is a generalized statement, but that doesn’t make it a fallacy, either. It’s even disprovable. To prove it wrong in the general case, you will need to find one example of the “[group] of humans are not people” argument that is not used to justify violence/oppression against that group. (SPOILER II: “I don’t view the unborn as a group that can be oppressed.” is not a good enough counter-argument. Most of the other oppressors never viewed their actions as oppressive, either.)
My grapes aren’t sour, Duck. They’re ripening quite nicely. I’m resuming my college education next year. Education is great-when it’s about something that is actually useful information in provable, quantifiable values rather than indoctrination of the opinion of your professors (I’m going after medical science, myself). But you and Megan enjoy your degrees in irrelevant bullsh!t. Apparently hers was even worth killing for. Ironically enough, she seems to currently occupy some sort of employment in a teaching field, so she killed her child so that she should more effectively indoctrinate the children of others who didn’t opt to kill theirs. I wonder if the kids know how expendable they are to her?
The fetus is not always the goal of sex. Sorry to break it to you, but humans have the right to sex with or without the goal of children in mind.
The fetus might not be the goal of those engaging in the act, but biologically, that is the function of the act. Your argument is tantamount to someone who wants to kill themselves via starvation griping that they only ate the cheesecake platter because it tasted good, NOT to give them life-sustaining calories! HOW UNFAIIIIIR!!!! The motivations of human beings have zero say over biological reality. Sex has the capacity to create new human beings because that is the act’s biological function. Whether or not the act was originally commenced with that goal in mind is absolutely irrelevant. Human beings have human rights, the most essential of those being the right to life of the innocent, which entails care and protection of minors by those who have custody-which by default is typically one or more parental units. Humans are welcome to their “right to sex with or without the goal of children in mind”, but once they have created a child or offspring with that act of sex, they must adapt their behavior to such an occurrence. Anything else is a profound denial of reality.
Quote it all directly, everyone’s comments about that thread, and I’ll re-read to see if you’re accurate that I got lost in the thread. If I’m going to revisit, I’ll want the actual words.
Yeah. Scrolling up is soo hard.
You know what? Happy Thanksgiving. And I mean that. I hope you have a great holiday with family and lots of tasty food. I am done arguing for the day.
Xalisae, good for you for going back to school. You assume my degree is just regurgitation of my professors but you’d be wrong. If it was, I’d be completely ignorant about the subject this blog dedicates itself to, because none of my teachers taught about it. As for your arguments, ignoring the fact that the cheeseburger argument is ridiculous, we as humans with our advanced intelligence and culture have invented ways to make it so that sex does not always biologically procreate. So, humans have the right to have sex with or without the goal of having children in mind, is a perfectly valid argument.
Alice, agreed.
Next time though, I’ll pay better attention to the individual comments in that thread topic, so I can better answer you. 
Happy thanksgiving to you and yours.
Sydney M. @9:18, 11/23/11,
That’s exactly it, Sydney. If I don’t “want” you, then I can kill you. It doesn’t get any simpler than that. This is the basis for the whole pro-abort/pro-choice argument. It is all based on what “I” (the mother/father/grandparent, etc) want over what the pre-born child deserves.
You assume my degree is just regurgitation of my professors but you’d be wrong. If it was, I’d be completely ignorant about the subject this blog dedicates itself to, because none of my teachers taught about it.
But you obviously ARE completely ignorant about this subject. ^_^
I’m not completely ignorant of the subject. I just disagree with you. There is a difference.
Two 13 year olds don’t have legal consentability (I’m pretty sure that’s the case in all 50 states and the district, but I could be wrong). However, they do have the right to behave as they wish and suffer the civic consequences.
Have you ever discussed your beliefs with Planned Parenthood regarding teens? I can’t find anywhere on their sites where they talk about civic consequences for teens who legally can’t consent to sex. I actually find just the opposite. Does PP give teens who are illegally consenting to sex, birth control so that they can continue with their illegal behaviors? Does PP inform parents that their teen is breaking the law? Does PP inform the police if two teens are behaving illegally? Do you think PP should be informing police and parents if a child is behaving illegally? Why or why not?
As for the how, I’ve already told you, science tells you what something does, how it works, how it interacts, what its components are, etc.
So in scientific talk, Duck, tell me how a baby is made. Not necessarily Megan’s baby. But any baby. Take your time.
As for the baby, Paraxedes, you know how procreation happens scientifically. As do I. That does not however, change mine, nor your philosophical viewpoint about what that means.
As for the birth control thing, I support the kids having access to safe sex. I support the kids having access to comphrensive sex ed. Civic consequences COULD be that they are taken into forced counseling or whatever else a judge were to decide, should they be charged, tried, and found guilty of illegally consenting to sex. But, since that rarely happens with two parties both underage, the smart (and less legally expensive thing to do) is to proactively educate. You asked, that’s my opinion.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Time for family celebrations.
Way to derail the conversation, Praxedes. We were talking about the validity of Sydney’s Holocaust/abortion comparison, not a six-week-old pregnancy that I terminated. Let’s say this, Praxedes: say I had been raped and therefore didn’t “consent” to getting pregnant. Would abortion have been permissible in that case? If not, then your “your fault! having sex=tacit pregnant contract” argument falls flat.
“Humans are welcome to their “right to sex with or without the goal of children in mind”, but once they have created a child or offspring with that act of sex, they must adapt their behavior to such an occurrence. Anything else is a profound denial of reality.”
You know, screaming tautologies over and over is a tactic that organized religion has used for centuries to indoctrinate its followers. So much for science and empiricism: this is true because I say it’s true! This is reality! Bwahh! Besides, science has nothing to do with the abortion debate; it’s a matter of philosophy, as Duck said.
That does not however, change mine, nor your philosophical viewpoint about what that means.
Right. I still oppose killing the baby before birth and you still support killing the baby before birth. How philosophical of you. My philosophical viewpoint is moral and your philosophical viewpoint is not.
These were the question I posed to you, Duck:
Does PP give teens who are illegally consenting to sex, birth control so that they can continue with their illegal behaviors?
Does PP inform parents that their teen is breaking the law?
Does PP inform the police if two teens are behaving illegally?
Do you think PP should be informing police and parents if a child is behaving illegally?
To simplify, I’m asking you answer each question with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’. If you answer a question with a ‘yes’, explain why you answered with a yes. If you answer a question with a ‘no’ explain why you answer the question with a ‘no’. Just like a college essay.
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, Duck. Be careful that you don’t imbibe too many Jack and Pepsi’s in order that your immune system stay healthy.
Megan, babies have no control over how they are conceived. Excuse me, but I too now have to go. Hubby and the beautiful humans I chose not to kill are going to visit our families.
I find this story very fishy. It’s very hard to provoke a miscarriage unless something is already wrong with the pregnancy. When abortion is illegal, girls and women throw themselves downstairs, have people beat them in the stomach, and other such things. This results in many injuries to the pregnant girl or woman — who almost always remains pregnant.
This isn’t to say that a miscarriage can’t follow an injury but usually the pregnancy was apt to miscarry anyway. If the pepper-sprayed lady had a miscarriage, that was probably a coincidence and the miscarriage would have happened even if she’d been at home watching TV or resting.
Megan said: So much for science and empiricism: this is true because I say it’s true! This is reality! Bwahh!
Oh! The irony…
Praxedes, I don’t work for PP. I have been a clinic escort for patients. It was not my job to know why a person was a patient, nor did I care. If you want to know those answers, ask PP.
As for the Do I believe question… if the behavior is underage sex, then no, I don’t care if they don’t report it, because at least the kids are getting comprensive help and a place where there is no judgement, just help and counseling.
I rarely drink, and my health problems have nothing to do with the rare jack and pepsi I imbibe.
Hope your meal was well. I spent mine with people who were all CHOSEN to be birthed.
Oh quick note, your assertion that your philosophical viewpoint is moral, and mine is not, is ethnocentric.
Duck sez:
“there is worth to humans and humanity. I’ve answered plenty on the subject, and didn’t feel I needed to be backed into a corner by Paraxedes with an argument that is moot considering my views on the aforementioned topics.”
Is the inherent worth of any human a value judgment, or a matter of scientific fact?
Duck sez:
“humans have the right to sex with or without the goal of children in mind.”
Wow, there is a scientific basis to each person’s right to other-person sex? That is not a value, but is a matter of scientific fact?
Duck sez:
science tells you what something does, how it works, how it interacts, what its components are, etc. Science does not tell you what that “means”. That’s philosophy’s job.”
Goodnight, Duck the Philosopher of the Human Condition Who Believes All of His or Her Beliefs are Matters of Scientific Fact, as have many a Eugenicist and many a Racist. You are the subject of many prayers tonite.
Hope your meal was well. I spent mine with people who were all CHOSEN to be birthed.
And I spent mine with a house full of people, some “CHOSEN”, some not, but all loved, respected, and valued for the human beings they are and always have been (we must just be the absolute DREGS to a bunch of super-special “CHOSEN” To Live people like yourselves!!! Aren’t we just the worst, our parents all loving and respecting us even though we came on our schedule, not theirs?!). And the fact you got to spend time with a bunch of “CHOSEN” To Live folks doesn’t undo the injustice of thousands of others who were “CHOSEN” To Be Killed by their parents who will never taste a turkey or get to say what they are thankful for this time of the year because they’ve been incinerated as medical waste. But have fun with the nice “CHOSEN” To Live people, Daffy. How many of the super-special “CHOSEN” To Live folks have had “CHOSEN” To Die siblings that were thrown away like trash?
(Shakes head.)
Duck! Duck!
Goosed! By xalisae.
Hi Denise Noe, 2:37PM
Excellent post. I would want to see medical records before jumping to conclusions.
Let’s not forget the hysteria over the alleged “illegal” abortion of Becky Bell that was based on nothing more than the parents’ allegations.
You’re certainly correct that “causing” a miscarriage is not all that simple. Over the centuries pregnant women endured far worse, and went to term.
I understand pepper spray was used because demonstrators refused to disperse. If this woman was so concerned about her pregnancy, perhaps she should have avoided potentially dangerous and unhealthful situations to begin with.
Duck, thanks for answering one of my questions. It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t think people should report the illegal behaviors of children to their parents and the police. Are there any illegal behaviors committed by children that you would report to parents/police?
I spent mine with people who were all CHOSEN to be birthed.
As opposed to spending it with those who were all CHOSEN to be killed? It would be kinda hard to spend any quality time with any of the people who were killed before they even had their first meal, wouldn’t it now?
‘Bout time you came back, Mary.
Missed you much!
Hello Carder,
You’re very kind, thank you. Actually I’ve been around. I did manage to PO quite a few people on this blog not too long ago on the thread concerning Michelle Duggar’s 20th pregnancy.
I haven’t seen you here in a while come to think of it. Always glad when I do.
Duck always comes back to the legality of things. Abortion is legal, sex between 13 year olds not legal..
But how were things defined as legal? Who decided to make it illegal to steal? Why? Why did someone decide that stealing is wrong and should be made illegal to do so?
Who decided that 13 year olds should not be having sex and it should be illegal for someone so young to consent? Who decided that abortion was wrong and should be illegal (until the Supreme court decided “who knows if its wrong? Lets NOT err on the side of caution. Lets legalize what MIGHT be baby killing.”)
What I’m getting at is that our laws are based on some kind of morality. Some is faulty, some is not but laws are all based on a premise that “This is wrong. It should be illegal.”
Drunk driving is dangerous to the driver and others therefore it has been made illegal. Not feeding your children is wrong therefore it is illegal to abuse your children, Raping women hurts women and is violent therefore it is illegal….
It used to be legal to own black people… again, based on faulty morality but still based on some kind of morality. Our laws are based on whether something is perceived as right or wrong. Laws change, our moral views change.
What I’m getting at is whether something is legal or not does not ascribe to it a sense of morality. We decide whether something is right or wrong and then make laws based on that. And laws change because sometimes something that was perceived as right is later perceived as wrong. Saying something is legal is no defense.
Eh, I’m butchering this argument. I am not articulating myself well at all today. My mind is in a turkey and pecan pie fog.
McCarthy was right all along. We could use a man like him again.
McCarthy was a fascist.
Sydney,
I understood the point you were making. You basically said the same thing I’ve been saying about there being different view points of morality. Yes, philosophies, including moralities influence our laws.
Hey Sydney, I’m in a Food Fog today so maybe that is why I understand what you are saying!
When parents no longer have rights and many people decide that they are above the law, it causes chaos. I believe this is a big part of why our public schools are such a mess. Many school employees put themselves above parents and police when it comes to issues such as birth control, abortion and parties. They have made themselves the decision-makers about what is okay for a child, at times without even communicating with the parents.
Example: My oldest is out of high school by several years and recently told me he and a friend left a class without permission when they were 16. They walked along a busy road and went to a gas station where they bought a lighter. The boys were caught, questioned by the principal, dean of students and a police liaison and they handed over the lighter.
I nor my ex were ever informed by any of the adults about this incident and I work for the school district! I talked with the then dean last week (who has now been moved up to principal at a different school in the district) and he said that was a long time ago, he doesn’t remember it. I told this guy that I would have disciplined my son for this. I can only guess that these men knew I would be upset and they were protecting the teacher who gave permission for the kids to leave campus. This teacher left my district last year but is still teaching in a different district.
I don’t believe my district is much different than many across America. I think Penn State is probably just the tip of the iceberg too.
Duck, if it is proven that the Occupy protester in the video was never pregnant, what do you believe should happen to her, if anything?
Praxedes, she should be investigated. Then the local D.A. should see if any local laws were broken.
The Last Democrat
I never said all my beliefs are scientific fact. Maybe you should re-read what I said.
McCarthy was a fascist.
No, McCarthy was protecting his country from a legitimate threat. It is obvious he was, or else we wouldn’t have students brainwashed by communist professors lining up in almost every major city around the nation to essentially protest capitalism-the economic system upon which our country is based.
No, McCarthy was protecting his country from a legitimate threat.
McCarthy was a fascist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQaX2h1plo&feature=related
I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was a fascist. But he definately was an plutocrat. Oh, and yet still students aren’t brainwashed by their communist professors. Besides, if the professors are so bad Xalisae, why do you want to go learn from them?
I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was a fascist.
I remember the McCarthy hearings.
McCarthy was a fascist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQaX2h1plo&feature=related
“…but all loved, respected, and valued for the human beings they are and always have been.”
Please inform us of how demanding that pregnant women give birth against their will is “respectful”?
“When parents no longer have rights and many people decide that they are above the law, it causes chaos.”
What happened to “it’s not my body, it’s HIS/HERS/etc?”
Joseph Welch was chief counsel for the United States Army when this exchange took place.
McCarthy was a fascist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO2iiovYq70
Besides, if the professors are so bad Xalisae, why do you want to go learn from them?
So I can learn USEFUL information, get a degree, and become a sonographer. That way I can donate some of my time at CPCs and help support women going through crisis pregnancies like I did. I wish I would’ve known CPCs existed when I was pregnant with my daughter so I wouldn’t have had to go through it alone.
Please inform us of how demanding that pregnant women give birth against their will is “respectful”?
That’s the thing though, Megan. When a pregnant woman gives her child the same respect that she wants to be given, there is no “demand” that she give birth “against her will”. She does so, because her child deserves that respect and consideration, and it’s the same respect and consideration SHE would want, and earns by being an upstanding person worthy of such respect and consideration rather than a killer of her own child(ren).
You can’t just go around DEMANDING that people respect you when you won’t even give your child a shred of the respect you’re attempting to strong-arm from those around you. You wouldn’t even give your child the minimum of respect required for you to not kill him or her. Why should anyone respect YOU?
*clicks on the link provided by mp*
*notices the “as featured on ThinkProgress”, the Nazi George Soros-funded blog*
*LAUGHS AT THE IRONY!!!!*
You’re a joke, mp.
praxedes… Sorry for the delay but I work 7 days a week on call 24hours doing hospice care and home health care for terminally I’ll and senior citizens…so I see the worth in people all the time. Whether the are occupants or reagular citiczens.
you ask what’s the worth of a fetus?
I ask you what’s the worth of a woman? A living breathing woman or girl?
is there really even a “price” one can put on such athing? It’s worth a person, a life…
but what about the womans life? What about the story that led up to HER choice? NOT YOURS!!!! Who am I to tell a woman what to do with her body? Yes her body, that made the fetus…who can’t live without her…and what about why she’s aborting the baby? Incest? Rape? Too young? Bright future? Drunken binge…disease? Possibly death. Poor with kids already…it really doesn’t matter…her body her choice…sit yo nosey self down and stay outta her business, ultimatly it’s between her and her God…not you people who press YOUR beliefs on others… Mind ya own business.
You’re a joke, mp.
The record is the record. Your personal attacks on me won’t change it.
McCarthy was a fascist.
If you insist on defending that miserable human being, you’ll deserve to be called one as well.
jessica-
If you’re ever being assaulted and robbed in an alley somewhere, I hope the passersby don’t just keep walking thinking to themselves “I better mind my own business, whatever happens to her is on that guy’s conscience. It’s his choice to harm her or not. That’s between him and his God. I mean, he might be violently robbing her because he’s got a family to feed and he’s fallen on hard times!”
You’ll also find that many of us here have children who were conceived under crisis circumstances. I was poor, had a job I couldn’t keep while pregnant, was living with my grandparents who had already told me that if I ended up pregnant I was getting kicked out, was with a guy who didn’t want me to keep his child, and was even getting pressure to abort at my job from a coworker who had had an abortion herself.
None of those circumstances change that my daughter’s life should’ve been protected by law regardless of what my circumstances were because she’s a human being who deserves to have basic human rights at every stage of her life, and so does every other LIVING HUMAN BEING in utero regardless of what their parent(s) think.
Mind ya own business
Yup. That’s what people who are usually doing something wrong tell you.
Abusers. Molesters. Slave owners. Nazis. Parents who host underage parties. Those who abuse the elderly. Murderers. Drug dealers. Abortionists. Thieves. People who pay abortionists to kill their child. ”Mind your own business”
The slaughter of unborn humans is my business. If it’s not your business, what the heck are you doing here?
The worth of the unborn baby is exactly the same as the worth of his or her mother and father. No, there is no price we can put on human life. Human life is all priceless. ALL OF HUMAN LIFE. From conception to natural death.
We all have our stories jessica and we all deserve to be allowed to live them.
mp,
you’re just a giant case of the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, you say I’m a fascist, but you’re the one who’s taking up with an actual, honest-to-god, self-admitted and proven NAZI.
And I don’t see how I can watch clip after clip after clip of self-admitted communists being churned out of the educational system and see the open support of people like Hugo Chavez by so many in the entertainment industry and have someone like you come here with your eyes closed and fingers in your ears slinging epithets and accusations in the face of what is obviously real danger.
mp, you’re just a giant case of the pot calling the kettle black.
President Eisenhower despised McCarthy. That’s a fact. “Despised” was Eisenhower’s word, not mine.
The United States Senate censured McCarthy. That’s a fact.
McCarthy was a fascist. That’s a fact.
I’m not here to educate you, but to prevent you from distorting the historical record for your own personal purposes.
If you think McCarthy was right, you’ve gone over the dam and don’t know what it means to be an American.
I had an abortion at 16 after 16 years of brutal rape and molestation by an uncle…my family wanted me to keep the baby, but let me make the choice…so am I wrong in ur eyes? You would have rather I kept a child I never wanted or asked for huh? A child that was made outta of hate and fear and unnatural lust? I have to deal with that on my own. And people like you will never understand. Too busy stuck on your own beliefs…
lots of wrong doings and bad things happen all the time….whether we stop it and try to help or keep it moving, it still happens. And a womans private choice about what goes on in her body and a robbery or rape or murder in the streets are in too different categories. Sorry can’t change my mind as I can’t change yours.
so you would stop and help the woman being beaten and raped but then afte
r wiping her blood of you would tell her, you have to have the baby by your attacker becuz it’s the moral thing to do. Forget how you feel. Whatever
and I got her by commenting on a police brutality post….not knowing I had ended up in pro life territory.
Hi Jessica,
Your story is horrific and our hearts can only go out to you.
I must ask though, was your uncle ever punished? Did you tell anyone? How did this animal abuse you for so many years and get away with it? Did he abuse other children as well? Did no one take any action?
Yes you became pregnant, but did the abortion diminish in any way the horror you endured and still live with? If you had never become pregnant, would the years of abuse have been not quite so bad?
From what I am reading, you vent your very justified rage on a child who was as much an innocent victim as you were. Would not adoption have been an option? Was there anyone you could turn to, like a school counselor or trusted relative?
I have to ditto Mary on this one. Sorry Jessica – you should not have ever been mistreated in any way – and while many would say that you were within your rights to abort your child, most pro-lifers would say that your child also deserved respect and care.
Now parenting that child would be an entirely different decision, and I personally know three people conceived in rape/abuse – two grown women and one a little girl. Two were brought up by adoptive parents who loved and nurtured them. One woman was brought up by her mother, who was also abused by a relative. All of them are outstanding human beings. Love does help heal wounds and is bigger than hate and abuse.
Again – I am terribly sorry about the abuse you suffered. I hope that your uncle got punished for his horrific actions towards you. God bless you and I hope that you are healing from such terrible abuse. You have our prayers and hearts.
Jessica~ i am so sorry to read of of the trauma you experienced. There were two victims from your uncle’s crimes. To further your healing even more deeply, you may want to check out
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/
My family will keep you in our prayers.
Jessica, I am sorry for what happened to you. I was also a victim of long term incest as a child. I know what it’s like to feel like no one understands what you have and are going through. If you need someone to talk to, http://www.rainn.org/ has hotlines you can call to get information on counseling, or if you just want to talk to someone. I also found this site, http://overcomingsexualabuse.com/ helpful, it has a discussion forum where you can talk about what happened to you with other survivors. I hate giving out my email that has my real last name, but if you need someone to talk to and you don’t mind talking to a guy you can email me at jack.barton_fl@yahoo.com. I promise you will get no judgment or condemnation from me. Take care and take care of yourself.
About Jessica’s evil uncle: I wonder what sort of background he had that might have contributed to his perpetrating such horror. In all cases like this, I wonder if the sexual predator was abused when growing up.
jessica, I too am so, so sorry for the abuse you endured. I don’t know what I would have chosen had it been left to me and I had your life. I am sorry that I have been judgmental. This decision should have never been yours to make. You were a child. Our system should help an abused child, not force her to choose something she is in no shape to rationally choose after a lifetime of abuse..
Did the place that did the abortion ask the circumstances surrounding the conception of your child? Did they turn in your uncle? Something is wrong with our country if a child can be abused for 16 years and no one notices or questions.
Abortion is not the answer to child abuse. Holding abusers accountable is.
Denise, only 30% of abusers are abused as children. There is probably other factors that take precedence.
Denise,
Now is simply NOT the time to be speculating about the perpetrator.
Good grief. Someone just came here and told you a horrific story of years and years of incest!!!
Don’t bother answering me.
Dear Jessica,
I am so sorry for what you have been through. It breaks my heart. There is help and hope for you.
Duck sez: ”I never said all my beliefs are scientific fact. Maybe you should re-read what I said.”
OK, so confirmed: Duck is playing both sides of the “morals not scientific fact” appeal.
the first time I told anyone I was 9 years old. I told my mother when I was visiting her. She called the police. Police told her since she wasn’t actively involved in my life it would look like she was just making trouble for my fathers family. Nothing changed. Wasn’t allowed around my mother, again. 12 years old I told again.
Police actually arreted him but my grandmother told me she wouldn’t love me every again if I said any more, a family
issue to be dealt with in the family. 16, pregnant. Scared. Told my mom again, this time begging for her to take me to the clinic to terminate the baby. She understood. Having that child would have ruined me even more…I couldn’t handle that. I still panic just thinking about it. My stomach
gets squemish and my breathing changes, like I’m losing my breath. I’m glad my mother supported me. My fathers family would have loved for me to have that child, raise it or even give it up, but I couldn’t do it. My uncle was arrested again, but not for long. Diagnosed paranoid schitzo…couple
years probation. I was labeled a ‘problem child’. And no the abuse would not have been any worse if I hadn’t been gotten pregnant. It was horrible in all aspacts, horrible in every way. He lives in his sisters basement to this day…how I hate that basement. My life was followed by 12years of prostitution and self hate. Not for the
abortion but for the way I felt about myself, my life, why me? I never hated the child, I knew it was innocent, but I cared about my life more…selfish? Maybe but it was MY choice.
I’m just saying, ladies and gentlemen…before you judge a womans actions and only think about how you feel and what you believe…remember you don’t know her story or what she believes…
and I share my story for those who can’t,
are to scared, or don’t have the courage. I’ve found my peace. Years of therapy once a week(even this week and next…)a loving
man, education, my faith in forgivness and acceptance, compassion and human strength, and my 3 children, yes 3, have showed me, I’m valuable and love is real…
I gave up one child and I have to seek my own forgiveness, not from any one you, but from my God, who gave me a mind to make my own choice. I wouldn’t have survived it. No way no how. And the abortion did not lead to the
prostitution…70% of woman in the sex industry were sexually abused as children, my chances were high from the beginning of life. A statistic from first breath…
I’ve broken the cycle though, in my family
line…ive made a difference. I broke the horrible chain of incest and molestation. I made a difference for my girls. And my son
. Even though I went through hell afterwards, the abortion gave me a choice, gave me the will power to leave…even if to struggle…i had made my own choice about my body…
Jack: I’ve always heard that a large percentage of abusers were abused as children. That 30% figure may only take into account specifically sexual abuse but there is also physical and emotional abuse. There are other factors as well. Psychopaths have brain development deformities. I’ve read they have thinner tissues in the limbic system.
Jessica: I support your choice. The truth is that carrying to term and giving birth is a very intense experience. You can’t not think about what is happening to your body. It may simply be psychologically impossible in some circumstances for the pregnant female to carry to term. This is something many who want abortion to be illegal do not understand.
Of course you would support the choice to kill a child via abortion, Denise. You are proabortion and come here to pretend that you are prolife. NOTHING is impossible with support and help and encouragement, which is something a proabort like you does not understand.
Jessica,
No matter the circumstances of conception, no matter the desperation, no matter the story, a child dies in an abortion. That is a fact. That is the truth. I am not unsympathetic to what happened to you. What a horrifying experience that you have gotten help for. Praise God for your husband and children and that you have broken the cycle!!
You are not the only post abortive mom here. You are not the only one who has been abused that comes here to comment.
You will find many caring folks that honestly will talk with you and speak with you or help you find resources if you need them.
BUT we won’t lie to you and tell you that we think what you did was a “good” thing. Abortion does not heal or help or cure. Abortion is an act of violence perpetrated on a fully alive, innocent human being. Whether that baby was conceived in rape or not every life has value.
Your child died in your abortion just as mine did.
If you are in need of abortion recovery please call
The National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE
or find a Rachel’s Vineyard near you
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
or you can email me
carla@jillstanek.com
Jessica,
I support you, no questions asked. You said you’re already in therapy and that’s good. If you want an ear to talk to, feel free to email me at duckishighonquack@yahoo.com
Denise said: I support your choice. The truth is that carrying to term and giving birth is a very intense experience.
Yes, carrying to term and giving birth is an “intense” experience. However, abortion is a very “intense” experience. That intensity is severe for those who seek abortion due to having been raped. Abortion does not cure rape. It will not make it go away. It will not make the memories go away. Swelling belly or not, baby or no baby- there will always be a reminder and memory of the trauma suffered.
You can’t not think about what is happening to your body. It may simply be psychologically impossible in some circumstances for the pregnant female to carry to term.
Of course a person can’t not think about what is happening to their body. Even with out being pregnant a rape victim has a whole other view of their body, their self-worth etc. Again, abortion won’t cure that. Abortion has the tendency to further the trauma of the rape victim, to push it deeper within. It does not promote healing. However, those who have carried to term did not have the trauma pushed deeper within. Where you, Denise, make presumptions of the weakness of women, their psychological frailty, and the “what-if’s” and “may not’s,” victims of rape who have carried to term have shown that to be false, have shown that greater and deeper healing is achieved without abortion and the birth of their babies have been a catalyst of healing and positivity from something evil.
It is imperative that victims of rape receive support and counseling throughout.
This is something many who want abortion to be illegal do not understand.
How abortion adds to the trauma of rape, how abortion inhibits deeper healing and further violates the victim of rape, how abortion does not cure the rape or the memories, how abortion creates two victims-the woman and the baby murdered, how abortion literally rips out of the mother’s womb the catalyst of her healing and greater sense of self-worth- this is something those who support abortion do not understand.
Hi Denise Noe 10:35PM
He was a sexual predator and I’ve made it plain that in my opinion people are born to be predators. The only concern here is protecting the innocent from him and others like him, not “understanding” them. These animals only prey on the desire to “understand” them.
Always remember my boa constrictor analogy when it comes to these scumsuckers.
Hi Carla 12:10am
Excellent post. Multiple dittoes.
Hi Jessica,
How disgusting that the people you turned to for help failed you so miserably.
The real issue here: A predator, a victim, and total indifference by those you should have been able to turn to for help.
You describe your life since the abortion and its obviously been very traumatic.
Could it be the abortion did nothing to solve the real trauma? It didn’t magically erase anything? Are you possibly more traumatized by your abortion than you realize? I have long believed that advocating abortion as some kind of remedy for rape only trivializes the crime and trauma. Just abort the woman and the problem is solved, right? WRONG!!
I hope you will follow Carla’s advice, just look into this. It certainly can’t hurt. You may also find the support and love of women who have lived through the horror you have.
Duck, 10:57am
Sure, abortion solves the whole problem right? Takes care of the trauma, horror, fear, and self loathing, that results from the horror that Jessica and others like her have endured.
To all those who disagree with my no questions asked support of Jessica…
To all those who think that abortion is wrong no matter what…
To all those who think that absolutely every freaking woman in the world who gets an abortion will hate her life forever and will have a terrible life…
You are not correct.
Jessica, I’ll say it again, so it doesn’t get lost in the how dare you noise. If you’d like an ear of non-judging feel free to email me. I’d usually recommend therapy with someone who is licensed, certified and a medically trained counselor, (not a fear based, faith based, evangelist) but you’re already in therapy. Feel free to email me at duckishighonquack@yahoo.com
Duck,
And to those of YOU who are so blind to the fact that abortion does not erase the horror of rape and its aftermath, we offer instead to Jessica our support, care, and friendship.
We are horrified at what Jessica endured and that the people she should have trusted to help her betrayed her instead. We are all saddened at what Jessica’s life became because of this abuse. We want Jessica to have the love, support, and help she so obviously needs. We don’t share in your simplistic mentality that abortion magically erases years of horror.
You overlook the fact Duck that Jessica was denied the most important choice of all, her choice to say “no”. But that’s not the real issue with you folks, is it?
“Sure, abortion solves the whole problem right?”
Who here has EVER said that?
Criticize me all you want. I can take it. But telling someone that they’ve sinned, and need to ask God for help, isn’t exactly what many people suffering with various forms and levels of mental illness need to hear. That’s just what makes your evangelist wet dreams come true.
You know something else Duck,
I’ve just reviewed your posts to Jessica and there isn’t one word of outrage over her years of brutal assault. There’s no anger over betrayal by people she should have been able to trust. There isn’t one word of support or love for her, only how great it was she got an abortion, and are you ever her caring and good friend to support this. Oh, and you’d recommend therapy. Daaaah.
Really speaks volumes Duck.
Megan, the child who died was never the problem.
Oh I’m sorry, am I supposed to sit and criticize her life in public or am I supposed to offer an ear to listen. Shows how much experience you have working in the mental health field.
PS-Duck. Still waiting for why wanting an unborn child makes her worthy.
BTW Duck,
I’m not an Evangelist, or for that matter a religious person so dispense with the religious slurs. It only puts your bigotry and appalling ignorance on display.
I’ve seen only compassion expressed for Jessica and offers of support from our posters, religious or not.
Courtnay, attempts at baiting me with talking points that have already been discussed in the wider topic base will always be ignored.
Religious evangelist or not…
evangelism (the polite word for prostelyzing) >>>the you murdered your baby crap to a woman suffering from mental illness is unnecessary and only serves to shame and guilt people into believing like you do, or to ostracizing and hurting them even more. That’s the entire point of evangelism, believe me or you’ll hurt from it.
Duck,
You work in the mental health field? Yeah, and I’m a supermodel.
Like I said Duck, speaks volumes.
Who said anything about criticizing her life? I talked about outrage, compassion. and concern for what she endured. Huge difference.
Yeah actually I do work in the mental health field. But whatever, believe it or don’t believe it. Publicly bashing someone’s life isn’t exactly a way to get them to reach out for help.
Duck,
Please directly quote someone “bashing” Jessica’s life.
Like I said Duck, speaks volumes.
I agree, Mary. I have to remind myself that all snakes don’t initially appear as the big bad boa constrictors. Sometimes they disguise themselves as a cute, furry little animal, such as a Duck.
Quack, Quack, QuackSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Duck, why are you getting so defensive? I merely asked you a question, and I guess I haven’t been on this thread long enough to know what you think about that. I’m not angry–I just want to know.
This idea of wantedness is absolutely fundamental in your defense of abortion. Have you thought it out?
Courtnay, apologies for coming off as attacking. Wantedness isn’t what’s fundamental to my defense of abortion. The woman’s decision, regardless how/why/when/what brought her to that decision, is the fundamental facet to my defense of abortion.
To Praxedes, as I’ve mentioned probably in every thread I’ve ever commented on in this blog, Duck is my REAL NICKNAME, not just an online persona I’ve created. So I’d appreciate you laying off the making fun of my name.
Mary, discussing any aspect of Jessica’s life in public (ie online) and then turning around the next sentence and saying but murdering your baby doesn’t help, is bashing her life. Why? Because you’re delegitimizing her life experiences and her choices and her situation in life, and saying but all that doesn’t matter because you still murdered your baby. That is bashing her life.
Duck,
I’m still waiting for the direct quotes. BTW, Jessica chose to come here and share her story, no one “outed” her. Anyway, let me know when you find the quotes.
She may have came here and opened up, that’s true. But your crowd’s inability to stop venomously attacking women who’ve had an abortion and don’t feel guilty about it didn’t stop the attacks. No quotes needed, go re-read the threads yourself, I’m too busy.
Duck,
No quotes needed? LOL, I think that’s duckquack for no quotes can be found.
No, that’s a this is a super long thread, and one of your crowd did that already in this thread, saying too much to re-read and scroll through to copy and paste. You’re perfectly capable of re-reading for yourself with the information I gave you about what constitutes an attack.
Regardless, I’ve got shit to do, and attempting to keep you guys from being bullies needs to go back to the back burner for now.
Later
Duck, I am not making fun of your nickname. I am using it in an analogy. I like the name Duck and it was actually the nickname of one of my children when they were smaller (he had a favorite yellow raincoat with a duckhead hood).
I don’t have to and I don’t like that you support the killing of humans and seem to have zero real compassion for anyone. I don’t like that you come to a prolife site coming off as all-knowing and super intelligent. I don’t like that you rip on people who believe in God but then act like you are so tolerant of others. I don’t like that you go back to your duck nest and rip on prolifers at Jills.
To put it bluntly, Duck, I think your worldview is wrong and very dangerous and your not someone I could spend too much time around. I also think you have sociopathic tendencies. If this makes you feel like I am making fun of you so be it.
Come on Duck,
The amount of posts concerning Jessica is limited to a few. Just admit you can’t find any quotes supporting your accusations and call it a day.
how abortion literally rips out of the mother’s womb the catalyst of her healing and greater sense of self-worth- this is something those who support abortion do not understand.
2 likes
Mary says:
November 26, 2011 at 11:29 am
Hi Denise Noe 10:35PM
He was a sexual predator and I’ve made it plain that in my opinion people are born to be predators. The only concern here is protecting the innocent from him and others like him, not “understanding” them. These animals only prey on the desire to “understand” them.Always remember my boa constrictor analogy when it comes to these scumsuckers.
(Denise) There may indeed be a genetic element to psychopathy as there is with near-sightedness and diabetes — both treatable conditions. Psychopathy is not yet treatable although scientific research is currently learning about the problems in the brain that create this horror. Pinpointing the brain disorder is the first step to addressing it.
If psychopathy is to some extent hereditary, it stands to reason that the children of psychopaths are more apt to develop this disorder, that is that the children of predators are more likely to be predators. Perhaps we should look for a way to ensure proto-predators are never born? If predators are born, you can’t say Jessica was carrying her savior but perhaps someone else’s horror.
A woman appeared on Phil Donohue who had been raped and impregnated through it when abortion was illegal. She placed the baby for adoption. About 20 years later, he came looking for her and found her. She said “he seemed nice enough” but then he told her how he’d been arrested for being naked in a church. She asked him, “Do you think of me as a mother or as a friend?” He answered, “I don’t think of you as a mother or a friend. I think of you as a lover.”
Later she learned that the “catalyst of her healing and greater self-worth” was in prison for forcible rape.
Duck, think about it. Those of us who are prolife vehemently believe abortion is murder. Abortion kills a human being, person, whatever you want to call him or her. We would be dishonest and sport a double standard if we said to Jessica, “It is true your child was conceived under the most horrific of circumstances. Therefore, your abortion is not quite as much a murder as a woman who had consenual sex. The fact that you were repeatedly raped makes this child not quite as human as a wanted one.” (See how this circles back to what I originally asked you?)
What Jessica gets from us is compassion, prayers, virtual hugs, and a resolve that no child should be treated as such. But where we CANNOT go is to say that her child’s life didn’t count, or that is was not equal in value to any of mine, who were conceived in love and anticipated in every second til their births.
All children deserve protection, Duck. Jessica did. And her baby did.
I am not a sociopath. Nor do I have sociopathic tendencies. I have a great amount of compassion for people, including the pro-life crowd. I don’t attempt to come off as all-knowing, but I am super intelligent. I don’t rip on people who believe in God, because that’s just dumb and a great majority of the world including me believes in a higher power. I just don’t believe in fear/hate based prostelyzing.
Now, to what I DO do…
I don’t rip on the prolifers, I rip on the logical fails. I try to keep my readers from ripping on people and keep it instead to ideas, but I’m human and I miss some. I don’t support the killing of humans. But you and I disagree what constitutes a person.
My worldview is not “wrong” nor is it “very dangerous”. That’s just your opinion.
Mary, I don’t need to admit anything of the sort. Just re-read it yourself, or let the thread keep going, the examples are there.
Courtnay, how considerate of you. Must be of the we love you by telling you that you’re a sinner love that Jesus talked about huh? Oh wait, he didn’t do that, he hung out with the sinners without criticizing them and loved them anyway.
Hi Denise,
Being the child of a predator does not mean one will be a predator, and the child of perfectly normal decent people can be born a predator. We saw a situation near us recently where the all American teenage son, i.e. Eagle scout, athlete, 4.0 GPA with a scholarship for college, went to prison for a “thrill kill”. There is thought to be a genetic element in socipathy, but one may not be at all apparent. All sociopaths are not criminals and not all criminals are sociopaths. In fact, if a sociopath finds his/her “niche” they can be very valuable to society.
My point is there are people who are predators, period. They will NOT change and we can only protect ourselves from them.
By espousing an equal social justice, Duck,, I am not calling her a sinner. I think she, as an incested 16 year old, is a victim in all of this. No question. And it’s because of Jesus that she can be healed and championed by him. I say the same to her child.
*Facepalm*
Logic and bias fail. Well, anyway Courtnay, I hope for everyone’s sake, that Jessica sticks with her therapist and no one from this page.
You tell me where my logic fails.
This is one of the biggest lies of the proabortion argument: the equation MUST necessarily pit mother against child. Both cannot survive; one must die. Mom vs. baby.
You talk about an epic fail.
You do realize the world is not black and white don’t you? Because your last comment is riddled with black and white absolutism.
Oh wait, he didn’t do that, he hung out with the sinners without criticizing them and loved them anyway.
And He told the sinners to go and sin no more.
I have seen elsewhere where you rip on the prolifers at Jills. If we are such losers, why do you keep coming here?
If you can look at the pictures of aborted babies and still push, promote, defend and revere abortion as a choice, rip on those who disagree with you and continually come here in all your super intelligence, pretending to care, in my opinion, you are an antisocial narcissist.
But I do realize that the only opinion that matters to you, Duck, is your own.
Now, go and sin no more, Duck.
You do realize I have 7 co-moderators on my facebook page correct? So, all of us show up as that name.
But regardless, I’m sure that you felt we were teasing anyway even when we didn’t think we were. I’ll be sure to be more careful of that from now on.
I am not an antisocial narcissist. I don’t like pictures of open heart surgery or anything else medical, dissections, or any of it. That doesn’t make me antisocial, it just makes me squemish about gore and blood. A medical procedure is a medical procedure.
He also said, he who hath not sinned shall cast the first stone. If your crowd here is full of admitted sinners than why are you casting the stones of words?
I don’t sin myself, as I don’t believe in the doctrine of sin. But that’s for a whole different basket of theological discussion and not pertinent to here at all.
Duck,
You work in the mental health field? Yeah, and I’m a supermodel.
I’m sure Duck does. I bet it’s quite easy to take advantage of mentally vulnerable people to further your agenda and attempt to legitimize your worldview.
Courtnay, apologies for coming off as attacking. Wantedness isn’t what’s fundamental to my defense of abortion. The woman’s decision, regardless how/why/when/what brought her to that decision, is the fundamental facet to my defense of abortion.
So your entire bias/beginning premise is that women are infallible and any choice that they make about anything is just perfect and hunkey-dorey because they are living goddesses. Because that’s a totally more rational position to have than “Every living human being-especially those very young, minor children-deserves equal protection under the law with the minimum being the right to live.”
Give me a freaking break.
You do realize the world is not black and white don’t you? Because your last comment is riddled with black and white absolutism.
People who say that the most are the ones trying to rationalize doing something really, really bad, or supporting those who do.
“nah, man, the world’s not black-and-white, it’s all just shades of gray, and who’s to say what’s right or wrong, man?”
You’ll keep on saying that until you start looking pretty gray to someone else.
Wow, you really know how to carry on an intellectual debate don’t you Xalisae? (THICK SARCASM) I don’t take advantage of anyone. I also never said a woman was infallible, as no one is, including gods and goddesses. You want a break? Either learn to carry on an intellectual conversation, or just stop stooping to insults. You’d probably get more accomplished.
Fear and anger lead to hate. All lead to black and white thinking, when the world is filled with wonderful spectrum of colors.
when the world is filled with wonderful spectrum of colors.
Yeah. Especially the blood of the 3,500+ children who are killed in abortion every day in the United States alone. That’s a lovely shade of red.
Fear? I’m not afraid. I’m disgusted. I’m disgusted that people can sit here and tell me that it would’ve been cool for me to just go with the flow when I was pregnant with my daughter, and that it would’ve been fine for me to do what would’ve kept ME comfortable and appeased everyone around me, and that HER DEATH would’ve been a-ok because she wasn’t really a human being, oh no, not REALLY. I’m not angry because of fear. I don’t hate because of fear. I’m angry because of injustice that takes thousands of lives like hers every single day, and that would’ve taken the life of a little girl who is absolutely wonderful. I hate everyone who dehumanizes HER every fu–ing day, and I’m so SICK of that.
Given the full range of comments I’ve seen you write both at me and not at me, Xalisae, you definately operate in a mindset of fear. Maybe you should look up the study done about the difference in brain wave patterns between conservatives and liberals. I forget the study. It shows the root emotion that drives the idealism of both sides. It was quite fascinating.
Oh, and just so you know, Pro-Choicers like me support people choosing to give birth. Cause you know, it’s their choice.
I don’t sin myself, as I don’t believe in the doctrine of sin.
Arrogant Jerk Duck,
I don’t make fun of Ducks myself, as I don’t believe in the doctrine of making fun of Ducks.
I’m not being an arrogant jerk. I’m making a theological statement. Learn the difference.
Duck-
If I were actually driven by fear, I would’ve killed her.
Find that link, I think it was a TED talk. Then tell me you don’t Xalisae.
Oh, and just so you know, Pro-Choicers like me support people choosing to give birth. Cause you know, it’s their choice.
Yeah, choices all around for everyone! Except the very young human beings that are killed by that choice. None for them.
The fetus doesn’t have another body living inside it and living off it like a parasite. The woman does. The woman gets the choice.
I’m not being an arrogant jerk.
That’s your opinion. Learn the difference.
Ok, fair enough that it’s my opinion. But I’m not being an arrogant jerk because of the context you accused me of being one. I was making a theological statement. If you want to call me an arrogant jerk, than just say so, don’t copy and paste my theological statement about sin and then call me that. The implied connotation is clear and evident.
The fetus doesn’t have another body living inside it and living off it like a parasite.
That’s because children are designed by nature to be cared for and provided for by their parents, not the other way around. I feed my toddler his cereal in the morning. I don’t expect him to bring me breakfast in bed. You know why? I’m more capable than he is, and I’m the one who did my part to cause his existence. He didn’t do anything to put me in the situation I’m in-I DID
. Children aren’t parasites, they’re children.
The woman gets the choice.
The woman had the choice. Her choice made her a mother. And there shouldn’t be a legal option for her to become the mother of a dead child.
Child = Born
A woman has the following sets of choices…
1)To have sex or not to have sex
2)If she has sex: To use contraception or not to use contraception
3)If she gets pregnant: To have an abortion or to decide to birth
4)If she births: To decide to raise the child (born) or to place the child (born) up for adoption.
How many of those choices does Xalisae get to decide over other women?
NONE
Child = offspring of two parents of sexually-reproducing mammals regardless of age or stage of development, as a simple DNA test would show you.
A woman currently has those choices. However, the choice to end the life of one’s CHILD should never be a legal one. That’s why Pro-Lifer’s fight such injustices.
Child = born legally, medically. Biologically it’s called offspring regardless of stage of development.
A woman has, and should always have the choices I listed.
off·spring
[awf-spring, of-] Show IPA
noun, plural -spring, -springs.
1.
children or young of a particular parent or progenitor.
Children should have the right to live protected at all ages and all stages of life. I’m going to fight for these rights for all the children like my daughter until justice is served.
hmmm…. that’s like using words that people are familiar with to define ones they’re not, what a freaking concept! (Thick sarcasm)
Semantics are important because without them, humans wouldn’t be able to comprehend language.
A child by definition is a term that legally and medically equals born offspring of an individual. Colloquially it is a catch all term.
To not be mindful of definitions and terms is irresponsible. That would be like writing to the Pope and asking “how’s god” instead of asking “how’s God”.
I fight for the rights of all Children and People also. The difference is that you also like to include fetus in personhood, and I do not. Meh. Differences in worldview.
Again with the science vs philosohpy…
Science tells you how something is made, how it works, what it does, how it interacts, etc. Science does not tell you why. Science does not tell you what that “means”. Philosophy tells you why. Philosophy tells you what it “means”. That is the difference between science and philosophy. Learn it, use it. Stop calling science philosophy, and stop calling your philosophy science.
And again with the semantics. Children are born. So, I care about all children. I care about the women, men, and other genders they grow up to be. I care about all of their reproductive rights. I fight for every Person. (again person=born). I own it. I live it. Just because you want to define the world differently, doesn’t mean my statements above are not true.
Science tells me that a gestating human being IS a human being. Science tells me that that human being is the biological child of his or her parents.
Philosophy tells me that allowing their parent(s) to opt to have them killed is wrong. Your philosophy tells you to deny scientific fact to attempt to excuse and legitimize their killing. That’s the difference.
Science tells everyone, that a Homo sapien sapien will gestate a Homo sapien sapien. For example, a Homo sapien sapien can not gestate a Homo habilus. Science tells everyone that under normal conception that gestating Homo sapien sapien is the offspring of the Homo sapien sapien carrying it and the Homo sapien sapien who mated with her. Science says a species will gestate the same species.
Your philosophy tells you that the Homo sapien sapien offspring is sacred the rest of the world be damned. My philosophy tells me that the Homo sapien sapien offspring gets it’s personhood and joins the community of the species (yes the word COMMUNITY is important) at birth. Your philosophy says life=personhood. My philosophy says life+birth=personhood.
There is no rewriting or ignoring of science in either of our philosophies. The difference, is that both of our philosophies interpret what the science “means” differently.
Children are born
You’re in denial, Daffy. A DNA test and a dictionary can prove that.
I’m not in denial of anything. I’m well aware that DNA can be tested on offspring, even inutero. A child is born. And for the last effing time, quit making fun of my name.
Science tells us that a human being needs at least one functioning kidney to live, but philosophy says that it’s unethical to mandate that another human being give up their kidney for that other person’s benefit. That might sound harsh, but at least in this society, we consider our bodies to be personal property.
“in utero child” can be found in many instances of medicine and law, when talking about prenatal surgery and custody issues. You’re still in denial, DAFFY.
That might sound harsh, but at least in this society, we consider our bodies to be personal property.
Only when you consider that the human being YOU are referencing was your child, who didn’t even want or need a kidney, just some space where you placed him/her initially anyway, some time, and a little bit of the nutrients you just happened to be taking in anyway. THEN it sounds not just harsh, but like unimaginable child abuse that ended in a child’s death.
Yes, but your argument falls flat in somebody like Jessica’s case, who certainly didn’t “consent” (as if choosing to have sex is like signing a pregnancy contract) to the act that resulted in her pregnancy. What then? Should abortion be permissible in those cases?
“who didn’t even want or need a kidney, just some space where you placed him/her initially anyway, some time, and a little bit of the nutrients you just happened to be taking in anyway.”
Oh, because I was just planning to throw up for three months anyway, or to forcibly eject something from my vagina anyway. What a grim vision of motherhood you have. Birth at all costs! Who cares about the human being doing the birthing? Who cares about what kind of life the kid will have once born? Blah, blah, blah.
Xalisae, you’re nothing more than a bully. Enjoy your life.
Xalisae, you’re nothing more than a bully.
Again, Duck, this is your opinion. Learn the difference between fact and opinion.
Bullies are those who promote killing humans for their own convenience. Humanitarians try to stop the killing of innocent people.
Megan, would there have been any room at your Thanksgiving table for another little one? If everyone donated a little bit off of their plates, I’m sure there would have been enough to go around. Someone was missing at your Thanksgiving meal and you call her Choice.
Praxedes, look up the definition of a bully, and try to tell me how Xalisae doesn’t fit it. Too bad, I know you can’t. So, don’t be so approving of her actions, it doesn’t bode well for you.
Yeah. I’m not a bully. You and Megan are. At least I pick on other human beings that are my own size and level of development. That’s not bullying, that’s fighting bullies who really DO harm smaller, weaker human beings-like you and Megan have by aborting and supporting abortion.
Those with great concern for children conceived in rape should write to the Texas Governor and ask clemency for Lisa Coleman. She is on death row for the beating and starving to death of her lesbian lover’s small son.
Coleman was conceived in the incestuous rape of her mother who was 12 years old when she had her. She was brutally mistreated as a child and, as an adult, visited this mistreatment on a precious and innocent young boy.
For Mary, there is no way AT THE PRESENT TIME TO CHANGE PSYCHOPATHS. When Jean Harlow died, there was no way to save someone whose kidney was failing. Today we do it all the time.
“Scientific American Mind” ran a cover story on research into the psychopathic brain. By pinpointing what is wrong in these brain-disordered people, it may eventually become possible to develop a treatment that will actually change them.
Denise Noe 8:10am
Point taken, but I’m not holding my breath. I still advise anyone to remember the analogy of the pet boa constrictor when dealing with these people.
I don’t have to look up the definition of bully, Duck. I work with kids who are bullied and those who do the bullying. I pretty good at picking out who is who. Many times, the child can fit both categories. As the bullies get older, they are a little better at hiding their behaviors but I can still pick them out after watching a bit.
As far as who the bully is in this thread, it is clearly you. You come here instigating arguments, go back to your place and instigate more (and then deny that it was even you).
I found this statement by you on your blog: “Also, yesterday, the clinic was closed, so some of us escorts and friends held a semi-spontaneous pro choice rally across the street from our clinic, right next to their fake clinic.”
The sign your ilk held, in public, read “F*ck these people” along with an arrow pointing in their direction. And you supported it. How very tolerant of differing views than your own. Classic bullying.
Funny how you get all upset with people messing with your nickname, but you can’t see what you do to instigate. When I was a kid, it was said to people like you, “You can dish it out, but you can’t take it.”
Go do something nice for someone today and stop bullying those weaker than yourself.
Mary says:
November 27, 2011 at 10:10 am
Denise Noe 8:10am
Point taken, but I’m not holding my breath. I still advise anyone to remember the analogy of the pet boa constrictor when dealing with these people.
(Denise) It’s a good analogy. I write true crime for a living. Psychopaths often seem more like sharks than like other people.
The article I referred to is in the Sept./Oct. 2010 edition of “Scientific American Mind.” On the cover it says about psychopaths: “Why They Don’t Care: They Can’t.” Kent A. Kiehl and Joshua W. Buckholtz write about the studies they’ve done of these people, showing that their brains fail to function like normal people. They have a “serious biological defect.” The ventromedial prefrontal cortex is malfunctioning as is the amygdala and other parts. MRIs of them show a “pronounced thinning of the paralimbic tissue–indicating this part of the brain is underdeveloped, like a weak muscle.”
I’ve got several articles up at TruTV.com’s Crime Library and at crimemagazine.com.
Paraxedes, quote me the rest of the way then. I didn’t know that person, and said as much. That person was not with us, that person showed up on their own. So, yeah, maybe you should quote me entirely instead of taking all the context out. I also said in that post, that his F sign was no less vulgar than the dead baby pictures your ilk drags around everywhere. Also, I don’t tend to instigate fights, unless you consider the fact that having a conversation with a couple people on this page riles up Xalisae and she’s gotta get all snotty means instigating a fight. I don’t tease other people, so your take it and dish it comment has no bearing. Also, I do something “nice” for people every damn day of my life, because unlike a lot of the selfish jerks who make arguments of no help for the lazy bs on this page, I go out and help people all the time. Cause guess what, they’re not lazy, they’re hurting. But whatever, I’m done talking to you and Xalisae. Good day.
Yeah, because walking around like you’ve got the biggest brain in the pan and constantly insulting the intellect of everyone else here is not insulting, Daffy Duck. Oh no, not at all. You’re such a psychopath, you can’t even grasp that your demeanor and the way you address others here is nothing but absolutely condescending and insulting. You won’t answer simple questions asked of you, when pressed you simply reiterate the initially inadequate “explanation” with which you began, and if we still persist in attempting to get a straight answer out of you, you insinuate a lack of intellect on our part.
You can dish it out, but you can’t take it.
Hope to see you at the clinic one of these weekends. It sure has been closed a lot lately, hasn’t it? I know it was when I went there a few weekends ago…
You’re such a psychopath, you can’t even grasp that your demeanor and the way you address others here is nothing but absolutely condescending and insulting
Before someone points out that I exhibit these same qualities most times, I’d just like to mention that I’m fully aware of my demeanor and attitudes towards others, I just like insulting people who deserve it.
But whatever, I’m done talking to you, Xalisae.
Finally! She took longer to get rid of than most bullies but we did it, xalisae!
Prolifers across the country are standing up to these bullies and we will succeed in putting legal abortion in the history books!
Denise, I’ll have to watch that program. It sounds intriguing.
Duck says:
November 27, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Denise, I’ll have to watch that program. It sounds intriguing.
(Denise) I wrote about articles, not tv shows. TruTV has a .com on the web in which it runs article.s
xalisae says:
November 26, 2011 at 6:26 pm
“in utero child” can be found in many instances of medicine and law, when talking about prenatal surgery and custody issues. You’re still in denial, DAFFY.That might sound harsh, but at least in this society, we consider our bodies to be personal property.Only when you consider that the human being YOU are referencing was your child, who didn’t even want or need a kidney, just some space where you placed him/her initially anyway, some time, and a little bit of the nutrients you just happened to be taking in anyway. THEN it sounds not just harsh, but like unimaginable child abuse that ended in a child’s death.
(Denise) X, you have a daughter. When she hits puberty, how will you make sure that she knows that any pregnancy she might, regardless of circumstances, will be a cause for joy?
Carla says:
November 26, 2011 at 10:23 am
Jessica,
No matter the circumstances of conception, no matter the desperation, no matter the story, a child dies in an abortion. That is a fact. That is the truth.
(Denise) Carla, there is a woman on death row in Texas who was conceived in a rape. Her mother was 12 years old when forcibly impregnated by her uncle. She grew up in horrible circumstances and, as an adult, visited similar treatment on a child she starved and beat to death.
The woman’s name is Lisa Coleman. Obviously, her disorder relates powerfully to the circumstances of her conception and birth. Will you write a letter to the Governor of Texas asking that this woman, who was conceived in rape, be granted clemency?
I’ll explain to her everything I went through when I was pregnant with her, and that I’m going to be there for her and be happy to help her, along with her stepfather as much as she needs us. As an older sibling, she already has an appreciation of pregnancy, childbirth, and respect of the child entailed.
lol at hugboxes, btw. How juvenile. “I’m not mean, am I, all of my friends who will do nothing but kiss my butt and tell me how great I am?” And of course, more semantics…”…never seen you openly ridicule…” of course not, when you’re the most passive-aggressive person ever. Then all of your insults are veiled and underhanded. But at least you’ve not OPENLY ridiculed anyone! 9_9
Duck: Also, as I’ve stated before, biology has nothing to do with philosophy. Biology will tell you the species, it doesn’t tell you what that “means”.
Right – all the “good, bad, right, wrong” of the moral realm, all the “shoulds” and “should nots” there, don’t come from science but rather from our philosoply and feelings.
Here’s a quote from Duck’s FB where she talks about us:
They’re convinced of a few things..I thought I read all the comments above but maybe I missed where someone here has said Duck has no co-mods? Apologies if I missed it. Otherwise, Duck is not only a bully, she is a liar too.
Duck, you said there’s no black and white in this world, just gray.
Is there any time when rape is not 100% wrong?
How about child abuse?
How about sexual slavery?
You lovely ‘pro-life’ folks are always touting abortion should be illegal. So I pose to you this question: If abortion does become illegal, what should the punishment be if a woman has an abortion after it has been made illegal? Death row, life in prison? Come on folks, you want to make your religious views the law of the land, time to step up. Come on, show your convictions.
As far as who the bully is in this thread, it is clearly you. You come here instigating arguments, go back to your place and instigate more (and then deny that it was even you).
Praxedes you at 10:41 was the one who accused me of saying stuff and then denying I even said it, after I told you I have comods who post as my user name. So, I’m not a liar, I’m just calling you out. Feel free to question my readers myself since you like snooping there so much.
P.S.
I don’t care what a bunch of butt-kissing sycophants think of you. Of course they’re going to say you’re great, and you’re totally awesome, oh man, Duck’s the best! That doesn’t mean jack to me. And I’m certainly not about to go over to your turf to be bullied by them. I don’t need minions to do my dirty work, and I’m not about to waste my time on your goons.
Courtnay, hard to describe. But not 100%. Not to say that it’s ever “acceptable” but more, that life is complex, and I’d have to know the whole situation. By far and large the answer to all three would be mostly wrong.
Mr. Liberal says:
November 27, 2011 at 8:53 pm
You lovely ‘pro-life’ folks are always touting abortion should be illegal. So I pose to you this question: If abortion does become illegal, what should the punishment be if a woman has an abortion after it has been made illegal? Death row, life in prison? Come on folks, you want to make your religious views the law of the land, time to step up. Come on, show your convictions.
(Denise) Abortion was illegal in the recent past. There was usually no punishment for the girl or woman but the abortionist could go to prison.
You are a bully and a liar, Duck. These are your words:
Blog regulars from Jill Stanek blog have been coming over here and “observing” my interactions with you. They’re convinced of a few things…1)That I have no co-mods and that especially those co-mods never read or talk about Jill Stanek’s blog
Show us where anyone said that you have no co-mods, Duck.
You also said earlier today, “But whatever, I’m done talking to you Xalisae” which is another lie because you are still here stirring up your drama. . . . .
Your like the mean middle school girl who runs to her three-screwed up friends to defend her when someone stands up to her. Your emotional level seems to be about 6th grade.
Snooping? Like you’re snooping here? Block your crap if you don’t want people to read it. As it is, rational people can read Jill’s blog and then read your stuff and make future decisions based on it.
Duck, you said there’s no black and white in this world, just gray.
Is there any time when rape is not 100% wrong?
How about child abuse?
How about sexual slavery?
Well said Courtnay. Of course, to be consistent, those who consider themselves pro-choice here would have to answer, “It depends how the rapist, abuser or slaveowner feels about it.”
If you think my readers kiss my ass, then you clearly haven’t been snooping my posts long enough.
Maybe not. I’ve just been looking in since yesterday after I got tired of your b.s. and you and Prax mentioned exchanges which took place over there. I just noticed that it seemed to be your hugbox you retreated to after getting your metaphorical ass handed to you over here and after you put up a post that basically consisted of “Jill Stanek readers are big dumb meanies!” your minions came out in full-force to tell you how great your are (seriously…who needs that? Who holds up a flimsy end of a debate, has an adult get tired of their monotonous tripe, gets griped out by said adult, and then has to have an entire troop of baboons help them lick their wounds just so they can go on living? LMAO). The comments I read (and I’m paraphrasing a little bit here) seemed to consist entirely of “Duck, you *SMOOCH* are so freaking awesome *SMOOCH* I can’t believe it *SMOOCH*. You are so right *SMOOCH* and everyone here in this giant echo chamber you’ve constructed for yourself totally knows it *SMOOCH*. Those people are stupid and mean *SMOOCH* and totally blinded because they probably believe in stuff and stuff*SMOOCH*. You are totally my BFF *SMOOCH*”
Also, This Just In:
Some rape might be good and morally acceptable rape. There could possibly be just instances of rape in the world according to Duck.
I think that says it all. How daffy!
wELL, dUCK, then this is where you lose everybody that may have had a smidgen of concern/compassion/interest in you. Rape is mostly wrong? You’d have to know the situation???
Dear Jill readers, welcome to Armegedon.
Courtnay, the mostly stems from the statutory rape allegations… if two people consent and they’re only a year or two apart, I hate the statutory rape being brought on by angry parents.
Courtnay, I should have clarified that sooner (ie last night when I made the post) but I was tired and had a headache. I’m sorry for the confusion.
I hate that Duck thinks it is okay to take rights away from parents.
That’s YOUR opinion, Prax.