Stanek weekend question: Is it morally acceptable for pro-lifers to film abortions?
I’ve been in conversation with a pro-lifer who shot much of the footage for this newly posted graphic abortion video.
The person did not tell me how s/he got access, or where the abortions were filmed, because to do so would risk losing access.
But s/he did believe that while the babies being filmed or photographed died, countless other babies were being saved by exposing the truth of abortion. This is true.
It is also true that the stress is very great on this dear pro-lifer.
“It kills me everytime I have to take photos,” the pro-lifer wrote. “When I am in that room I want to go ballistic on that abortionist. The only thing that stops me is knowing that in the end, many lives will be saved. But it takes a lot out of me.”
This weekend’s question: What are your thoughts on the morality of pro-lifers videotaping or photographing abortions?
BTW, I’ve played and replayed the footage from 1:08-1:12 and am certain that aborted baby moved; he survived his abortion. My friend did not shoot that particular footage but thinks so, too.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Moral? Tough call – under the reasoning of the person, that it could save lives, they would probably consider it moral to purposefully get pregnant, shoot a horrific abortion video and broadcast it out in hopes of saving other lives.
If a person truly believed abortion was murder, could they videotape a murder happening? If I stumbled into a situation where I was about to see somebody killed, I certainly wouldn’t film it.
Do you truly believe abortion is murder, RINO? If so, if you were in that room, what would YOU do?
I do truly believe abortion is murder x. If I was President, the first bill I would create and send to congress would ban abortion, would put in place a single payer health care system so all were covered and that wouldn’t be a concern for families, and would expand educational spending.
I wouldn’t even be in that room. Would you?
I watched the first 24 seconds and had to stop to prevent myself from throwing up. Absolutely disgusting.
I can’t imagine being the person to film this and not having serious psychological issues to deal with as a result. The images I saw in those first 24 seconds will probably be with me for the rest of my life. I can’t imagine ever going to pray at an abortion clinic without those images running through my head.
With that being said, I can’t imagine anyone seeing this and being unconvinced of the violence and inhumanity of abortion. If women considering abortion can bring themselves to watch even the little bit I watched, minds will definitely be changed.
As for Ex-GOP’s conclusion that by using the photographer’s logic, purposefully getting pregnant just to film the abortion is equally moral, I wouldn’t agree with that at all. These abortions would be happening whether or not the photographer was there to film them. No more lives are being ended than would have been anyway.
This is really a question you can ask anyone of any circumstance of murder: Would you be willing to let 5, 10, 20 people be brutally murdered in front of you if it somehow could possibly save 100 more? I don’t know. It’s tough.
Forget “morally speaking.” If a person, in surgery, is being filmed without having been told about it and without having given permission to do so, we’re talking legally speaking.
Sarah -
I’m just saying that the moral reason the photographer seems to present is that it will save lives. Maybe they also believe, “hey, it is happening anyways, let’s try to get some good out of it…” – I sure don’t agree with that either.
I haven’t watched the video yet. I have to steel myself to do it. Its hard enough as a human being to watch baby human beings being killed but as a pregnant woman… I don’t know if I can do it. I am going to try.
As to the question.. that is tough. I always wondered where the other videos came from…All those videos of abortions. Who films them? How do they get into pro-life hands?
I understand how the silent scream was filmed and in that case it was an abortionist and his staff “filming” it via ultrasound. But the others? The ones where young humans in the first trimester are scraped out? Or a horrific one I saw years ago where a 20 week old baby was dismembered through D&E (not the Bernard Nathanson film Eclipse of Reason. This was a different abortion video). Afterward they re-assembled the aborted child on a table… severed head, arms, legs, a spine… I cried and cried because I was pregnant with my first son when I saw that and I could feel him kicking.
I don’t know what to say about the morality of this. That child will die anyhow. not that that child’s life isn’t of value. Its heartbreaking to think of the loss. If the person filming goes ballistic will that save the baby? No. But to film this atrocity will save other lives. Our society will not end abortion till they end abortion. I do feel badly for this pro-lifer though. I cannot imagine the stress, horror and nightmares they are having.
Oh man, I have to agree with Ex on this one, especially his “if I were in charge” scenario. Unfortunately, I also kind of agree with CC too, I think it’s awful to videotape these women without their consent, I am not an ends justify the means type of person.
I couldn’t be in the room and I cannot watch this video, especially knowing the woman has no idea she is being videotaped and broadcast all over pro-life sites.
There are two possible scenarios where I think it is immoral: 1)the videographer failed to stop a murder as GOP indicated; and 2) the videographer did not disclose the name of the persons involved in the murder so that the authorities could prosecute all the individuals involved. …Oh no.. I forgot this abortion stuff is legal… i better change my mind… so I think it was perfectly moral – they were just videotaping a blob of cells. What is the big deal – the procedure is legal!
How do we know these women didn’t give their consent? If they didn’t why would the abortionists allow the videotaping to take place… abortionists would never do anything illegal like permit pro-life people to purchase the right to videotape the abortion without the Mother’s consent…would they?
Well, I’d go about it a little differently, like by incentivizing non-profit organizations built around providing low-to-no-cost health care services/insurance for high-risk/needy individuals, hopefully returning government investment and re-investing profits into improving services, rather than some bloated, inefficient, corrupt government agency. Same thing for education through private school vouchers, and no more union protection for crappy teachers that are failing our kids (not in the sense of grades, but in the sense that they are doing a terrible job attempting to teach them). But I’m with you on the abortion thing.
Anyhoo…
If I could help it, no, I wouldn’t be in that room. I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t just stand there filming. I’d have to interject, and I know I’d be arrested, and that would be counter-productive to my fight for human rights. But my point was if you or I were somehow randomly transported to that room and unable to leave, what would you do?
Well x, if I were somehow randomly transported into the room, which was now locked and I couldn’t get out, my first method would be to use my supersonic time stopper and stop the advancement of time…
In all seriousness though, in the unlikely scenario that I was supernaturally beamed into an abortion room and had a video camera with me, I would put down the video camera, grab the surgical instruments and curl up in a corner of the room.
The police would come in (I’m assuming that they could come into the room, though I was not able to leave – there is a possible hole in this story) and arrest me, and the abortion would take place…but like the videos terrorists have taken beheading people, I wouldn’t want to be involved, even if it was quietly standing by with a video camera.
Good to see though that you’d further subsidize health care for low income folks!
Of course, RINO. Conservatives aren’t terrible people who just want to see poor people die of stupidity in gutters. It’s just that I was an Army wife for 5 years and saw how horribly wasteful, incompetent, and needlessly bloated the government is. I wouldn’t trust a government agency to water my houseplants while I’m out of town for a week let alone make decisions which dictate life or death for some people.
I’ve also worked for a non-profit org, and know what kind of job they do. They’re run like a company, so they are forced to be efficient. Also, when you’re running charity work, it’s easier to make deals with other companies to provide things to your workers and clients at higher quality and lower price. Government increases cost. Business decreases cost. It’s as simple as that.
We also seem to be on the same page about the room thing, too. It was just a thought exercise, though. I wasn’t creating the scenario with air-tight realism in mind. Thank you for your honest answers. I appreciate this exchange.
I work with the military daily in my job, so I have a slightly different take. Regardless, I don’t know too many non-profits that could pick up a $2 million cancer bill.
Anyway, we found some common ground. Good for us.
From a moral perspective, the law permitting abortion is immoral so most means taken to stop it are moral. The means appears in this case to be moral.
The problem is that abortion is legal when morally it should not be. Lack of consent, if there is a lack of consent, would make the means “wrong” only from a legal perspective, not a moral perspective, if it is legally wrong to film a legal activity without a person’s consent. Just like it is perfectly moral for someone to “steal” food if they are dying of hunger. All property is a ultimately common property. All life deserves to live, even if the Mother doesn’t want the child.
From a legal perspective, I guess the videographer would be guilty of disseminating indecent photos??? Or would be this considered some weird form of illegal pornography?? Legally speaking I think it would be hard to define exactly what is illegal in these videos? Is it the possible lack of consent or the content of the video that would make it legal? How does the content affects it legality?
That baby at 1:08 absolutely moved. His arm and leg moved. How far along would that baby be, do you think? My adrenaline must be pumping because my son kicked the whole time I watched this video. I just wanted to gather those babies up and protect them.
Heartbreaking . . . . . Prayers in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ for those taking the risk to show the truth!
Let’s ask President Obama this thread’s question. Does anyone have his email address?
I disagree with my husband and every one who thinks it would not be moral to videotape this and share it to stop more lives. I don’t comment on internet sites but I couldnt ignore this. We are in a WAR people. We cant use violence to stop the murder of preborn babies but we can do everything else to help these babies!! How can you stand by and say that it is immoral to videotape when cold blooded murder is being committed??
From a legal perspective, how is this any different from me filming my child’s football game without the consent of all the other players and/or parents?
Tyler, I think that would have something to do with the expectation of privacy, and the distribution. Medical privacy laws are pretty strict, and are strictly enforced.
I know better than to argue with my wife, lol, so I will just say that I can’t countenance distributing videos of a woman who is having an abortion without her consent. Even if she signed a release, I doubt that she expected the video to be distributed to pro-life sites. It’s horribly disturbing all around.
Well, I understand wanting to protect the women’s privacy, but what is of more importance? Saving the lives of unborn children or protecting privacy? Its the same as these parents who get upset that their child saw a photo of an aborted baby. While I understand wanting to protect the emotions of children, what is of more importance? Protecting children from a graphic photo or protecting unborn children so they don’t end up BEING a graphic photo.
Amen Ellie and Sydney!!!
Totally agree.
Sorry for typo.. I meant, society will not end abortion till they see abortion.
From a legal perspective, is it the privacy of the woman or the aborted baby that is being violated? You don’t see the face of the mother but you see the entire body of the baby (in the examples where they haven’t been turned into a Slurpee).
Jack, let me understand what you are saying – these ladies are not squeamish about getting an abortion but if it is filmed they don’t like it. It is okay to have an abortion but not to have it filmed? Why have these women become so prudish all of a sudden?
Believe, RINO. for-profit companies (the one that I first started researching was AFLAC) donate millions upon millions of dollars to charities all the time (in the case of AFLAC, they’ve given 60 million since they started donating, and this is just ONE for-profit company). If we had more non-profit companies working with for-profit companies that specialized in addressing these needs and if the information to contact these companies for assistance as they need it, the need could be addressed without the need for government interference.
Jack’s just squeamish Tyler. I agree with you tho and Sidney and Carla. This horror has to end! God won’t allow his children to be killed in the womb much longer! If these videos help then they should be broadcast all over the country!
So how many people here actually watched the video? Actually, I’m wondering how many pro-choicers watched it.
I ditto that Ellie.
Some Guy, I got through about half of the video. I am so, so sad.
I will maybe try the rest of it another time.
I haven’t watched it yet. Maybe when all of the kiddoes are in school.
I will try to get through it. Watching the murder of a child is beyond gut wrenching.
Ellie,
All I keep thinking is how very patient God is with us!!!
Does anyone know if this is a 2nd or 3rd trimester abortion? I wonder if the abortionist admits that he/she is murdering this baby? What person, after watching this horror, would think this is OK?
Carla I am amazed at God’s patience every day! He gives us all so many chances to repent and let all of those who are doing these awful things repent and come to his glory! I pray every day for those who haven’t found Him and His forgiveness. He is the only one who can wash away all the blood on the hands of these babie’s killers and all the rest of our sins!
John 1:9 “But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.”
I’m generally unimpressed by arguments that say “well, this is REALLY bad, so the kind of bad thing I’m going to do is acceptable”.
24 seconds? I couldn’t last 15.
Frankly, the morality of recording abortions doesn’t even cross my mind. If there’s injustice going on, then it needs to be exposed.
The identities of those recorded are ket private, so there you are.
I compare it to undercover cops: they’re putting on a front in order to snag the true criminals.
That’s how I feel about it Ex. I think it’s a bad precedent to legitimize illegal/immoral actions in the process of trying to prevent abortion. That line of thinking can lead to some pretty bad places. It’s not just because I am squeamish.
I couldn’t watch any of it, Some Guy.
The lamp of the body is the eye; if thine eye be upright, thy whole body is full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be darkened. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is the darkness
Mathew 6:22-23
I will not watch it. “Be careful little eyes what you see…” and all that :)
I do believe it is necessary for some people to SEE the truth, as they (if they are pro-abortion) may consider the discussion philosophical, legal, theological, or whatever and block out or forget that there are REAL CHILDREN involved in abortion. These images in those cases would “enlighten” the eye. For me, since I am well aware of the horrors in abortion, seeing these things would darken my soul. I can’t do it. :(
As to the privacy question; as long as all identifying marks, tattoos, face, etc. of the “participants” in the abortion are obscured then no ones “privacy” is being violated. There is a hitch in the morality when it comes to the question of if by standing by, and if by filming it, one makes themselves a “participant” and thus complicit to the act. That one I can’t address, sorry :( I couldn’t do it. I would feel responsible for the babies deaths. :((
theCH-
Yes, I’m sure that would fly in a privacy lawsuit – “the crotch was very ambiguous, therefore, it deserves no special privacy”
Amen, Ellie!!
Because there is no informed consent with abortion it stands to reason that if women actually SAW an abortion and how it kills a child at their appointment……they wouldn’t do it.
To everyone who is having such a fit over the moms being recorded, first, you can’t tell one vagina from another so who is gonna know who these women are? Its not like I watched it and said “Oh my lands! There is my neighbor! I’d know that cervix anywhere!” Pulease. Its not immoral. Its not wrong.
When my friend had some kind of gynecological problem where she had a massive infection in “that” area (was not STD related but I can’t remember the details) I just remember that she told me she was up in stirrups to be treated and the doctor brought in tons of medical students to gawk at her private parts and they took a picture for a medical journal because her condition was so rare. My friend is an RN so she was understanding and laughed about it. She said “Who is gonna know its me? They’re not going to look and say ‘Oh that’s so and so’s labia!’ ” And no she didn’t sign consent. They didn’t even ask her permission.
They are killing children. THATS what is wrong. Lamenting over filming women when in the film THEY ARE RIPPING ARMS, LEGS AND HEADS off babies is just… I can’t even conjure a word for it. Its insane. Its blindness! Open up your eyes and see what they are doing to these children.
Watch that poor baby boy cold and alone in a pan, moving, dying. Never to know what it is like to be held and loved. Never to know what its like to have his mommy wrap a soft, warm blanket around him. But yes, lets ignore that and just piss and moan that women’s va-jay-jay’s were filmed and put on a pro-life website. Ridiculous.
Uh, Sidney? I find abortion so horrifying I can’t even watch any of that video. I had to leave the room when my wife played it. The question was whether or not videotaping these women was immoral, not whether we find abortion horribly wrong.
I really, truly believe that ends don’t justify means here. It doesn’t mean I don’t hurt for these children, because I truly do.
“To everyone who is having such a fit over the moms being recorded, first, you can’t tell one vagina from another so who is gonna know who these women are?”
In that case, you wouldn’t have a problem with someone secretly recording you having sex with your husband, as long as your faces and other identifying features are not shown, right? Since you can’t tell one vagina apart from another and all.
Well said Sydney.
I agree let’s worry about magazines like Playboy, Hustler, et al before we have a sissy fit over this witness to the evil that exists in our society.
Did anyone check out the photos of the instruments used in an abortion procedure on the website. I know what the crossed out hanger image represents to feminists but are these instruments any less gruesome and deadly than the hanger? For those who can’t stand witnessing the death of little children I suggest that you at least view the photos of the instruments used in an abortion.
If we all understood that the death of Jesus was supposed to end all ritualistic sacrifices, including the sacrifice of children, abortion would not exist. One Holy Sacrifice was enough to grant salvation for us all.
Joan do you not see the difference between sex and abortion? “Secretly recorded”… now that is a stretch… how did you come to that conclusion? The fact that vaginas are in the video is ancillary to the purpose of the videos. Let’s get real.
Joan, by the way, unless you want an affirmative response to your question I suggest that you don’t pose your question to Brett Favre!!
“To everyone who is having such a fit over the moms being recorded, first, you can’t tell one vagina from another so who is gonna know who these women are?”
That’s the defense of people who say that there’s nothing wrong with “upskirting.” So what you’re saying is, you don’t care if someone secretly films your wife or daughter in a department store dressing room and posts the video for like-minded perverts. That’s very open-minded of you.
“It kills me everytime I have to take photos.”
Is someone forcing this individual to violate medical ethics and his/her employer’s trust in order to cater to the segment of the pro-life community that has an insatiable appetite for fetus porn? If not, it seems that s/he should either quit filming, or man up and stop whining.
Jack, actually watch the video then. You can’t see these women’s faces. And they are moving their legs and clutching the sheets so I assume they are awake and aware they are being filmed.
I also thought Jill’s question pertained to “Is it moral to stand there and film while a baby is being killed in an abortion?” not “Is it moral to film a woman’s vagina during an abortion?”
o dear. i just ate a late dinner and thank god i cant access videos from my phone. reading the descriptions of what was going on was enough. i watched ‘the choice blues’ which was bad enough. but i just cannot watch a baby die in a pan. 90 million abortions to date. at least thats the guesstimate. 4000 abortions today 4000 tomorrow 4000 the day after that……4000…….
Wow Lisa C. you’re a sick individual. “Fetus porn” and likening this to “upskirt shots”? Are you a sex addict? There is nothing pleasurable or sexual about this. Children are being torn apart but you’re probably in support of this I take it. Did you watch the video? You support leaving fully formed baby boys to die cold and alone in a pan? Sick! Sick! Sick!
Lisa C, I guess as long as one denies reality of the baby then I guess one can compare a video of abortions to “upskirting.”
There at least 4 people in each video, how much privacy did the Mother expect?
Have any of the complainers heard or seen sex education videos? Did any of you wonder whether the people in those videos consented to be videotaped and shown repeatedly in classrooms. No offence Jill, but perhaps the reason the photographer did not answer Jill’s question as to whether s/he had consent of the people filmed was because s/he was offended by the implied insult contained in the question!!! Is it so far beyond the imagination that some women who get abortions are so ambivalent to what they are doing that they may have actually consented? But I guess pro-choicers know that for most women abortion is a choice that they do not want and that very few women are callous enough to deny the reality of what an abortion is.
Once again to true pro-choicers this is exactly the same as up-skirting – which in terms of abuses against women has to be considered one of the more minor abuses – But only exactly the same if consent wasn’t obtained – which we don’t know.
Sidney, I can’t watch. But rest assured I was was forced to watch plenty of these type of videos and have seen plenty of torn apart little babies since childhood. I know what abortion does. I still think both of your posed questions are immoral things to do.
oh yeah….the pro aborts like lisa c. have no defense as to what they really support. and you cant deny a video. thats why they hate our graphic signs. oh but were not leaving lisa….i hope my graphic fetal signs make you sick.
Heather -
Two issues I have with abortion signs. First off, I don’t want my small kids exposed to graphic images of any kind, and have seen graphic abortion photos out in public with no respect given to others and what they do or don’t want their kids to see.
Other issue – it is a sloppy argument. When PETA does the same thing, and shows horrible images of a cow being slaughtered, it is an acceptable response to say “wow, we need to be more humane in killing these animals”. With abortion videos, a pro-choicer could surely be shocked and say “wow, we need to make sure the morning after pill is available and that we catch pregnancies early so that abortions happen as early as possible”.
oh pulease nobody will recognize whos private part it is. it beginning to sound like the movie ‘porkys’ a fictional comedy. furthermore nobody cares!!!!!!!!!! we care about the dead babies. jack im sorry but in my opinion you kind of act pro choice……or you play both sides. just an observation.
I act pro-choice because I don’t agree with graphic photos and videos? The more you know…
X-GOP, I also have young children and I think the graphic signs should stay. Because they work. They change hearts. Not the hearts of rabid pro-aborts but the people who say “Well, I guess it should be a woman’s choice” but have no idea the horror and brutality that choice entails. Do I want small children upset? No. But I’d rather unborn children be saved from death.
Do we not show graphic photos of children starving in Ethiopia because we don’t want to offend? Or don’t show any graphic images of war or the holocaust because we dare not offend someone? Graphic images change hearts and thats why people of all causes use them.
Until the day when no one champions the killing of unborn children then I will continue to show my graphic signs.
“Joan do you not see the difference between sex and abortion? “Secretly recorded”… now that is a stretch… how did you come to that conclusion? The fact that vaginas are in the video is ancillary to the purpose of the videos. Let’s get real.”
Do you not see why the difference between sex and abortion is not relevant, because I was not comparing them, but rather pointing out how utterly stupid Sydney’s observation is that as long as a person can’t be identified in a video, their privacy doesn’t matter?
ex gop…well i see graphic signs as an educational tool. so i guess it doesnt matter to me that you dont like them. btw when you last went to the sidewalk to protest what approach did you see fit to take?
“oh yeah….the pro aborts like lisa c. have no defense as to what they really support. and you cant deny a video. thats why they hate our graphic signs. oh but were not leaving lisa….i hope my graphic fetal signs make you sick.”
Actually, pictures of fetus body parts make me crave Swedish Fish for some reason instead.
One word for the pro-abort complainers…: sexting.
Some women expose themselves voluntarily….or should I say by choice!
The website where the video is posted is dedicated to educate the people about abortion procedures and it is doing so. I think some women would consent to do these videos.
Not agreeing with the use of graphic signs doesn’t mean Ex or I, or anyone else isn’t pro-life, Heather. And the wonderful thing about the US is that we can all express our opinions about them. Even disgusting opinions like joan’s and Lisa’s.
Tyler, I sincerely hope that was sarcastic.
Sydney – I simply am a big supporter of kids being kids, and of parents being able to parent their kids without those kids being bombarded by political messages, or images that kids aren’t ready for. Maybe I’m too big of a fan of parental rights…not sure. Regardless, I don’t care if I see the images – I can choose to walk away. My issue is forcing images upon small kids – and i have an issue whether that is done by the abortion industry, PETA, the porn industry, or anyone else.
“The website where the video is posted is dedicated to educate the people about abortion procedures and it is doing so. I think some women would consent to do these videos.”
Okay, let’s assume that the woman in the video did in fact consent for that purpose. Why the cloak-and-dagger routine by the person who filmed it then? Not only should this person not be hiding behind the veil of anonymity, but he or she should be more than willing to attach his or her name to the “project” and to furnish information about the location and circumstances under which it was made.
joan goes for the shock value again. joan fyi every troll tries the same tactic.
yeah joan. that was so funny i forgot to laugh. oh well off to bed. this abortion talk is depressing indeed……but what does it matter unless youre the tragic baby in the pan? eh he doesnt matter to pro aborts because after he dies someone will toss him in the trash. or even while still alive. so much for us caring about each other. im a nurse and i stop at accidents. i help the elderly i stand and protest abortion clinics. god help you pro aborts that one day you might need help and nobody helps. i would even be there to help you.
Joan, i think you forget about the crazy pro-choicers. you know the ones that have pro-lifers arrested for praying, or phyiscally attack pro-lifers during a March for Life, or accuse Pro-Lifers of being dogmatic religious bigots, or deny pro-lifers who work in hospitals the right to have a different opinion and a conscience clause so that they can continue to pursue their livelihood, or the pro-choicers who engage in getting pro-life nursers and doctors fired for not getting with the “program”, or the ones that crave Swedish Fish after viewing the remains of a human baby… but i guess i am wrong… pro-choice people are sweet nice people who never do anything wrong.. they are like sweet lady Nancy Pelosi who calls Pro-Lifers women killers…
Go off on your little tangents, proaborts. Go for it. Yap about anything and everything that doesn’t have to do with the killing of a child. The videotape of a child being murdered. A HUMAN BEING LEGALLY MURDERED!!
You excel at it. Every.single.time.
Child? What child? What pan? What?
It took me SIX tries to actually watch the entire video…kept shutting it off and going back to it after 30 minutes or so each time.
Like others here have stated, I can’t come to a definitive answer as to whether it’s moral or not to actually do the filming of these abortions…and all I can come up with is that people NEED to see either a video like this or the graphic photo’s etc.
It never ceases to amaze me how, in the year 2011, I run into countless people who see such things and say they had NO CLUE about the ugly truth of what abortion is.
This is the LAST time I can ever watch similar videos or see the graphic images. It’s too heartbreaking and sickens me to my very core how ANYONE can possibly think that it’s OK to do this…be it the doctor, the mother, or whomever.
God help us all.
I think these videos should be part of sex-ed classes in high-school. They should be shown before the pro-abortion, pro-pill and pro-contraceptive videos. After watching a video like this I think abstinence would become popular again. Education should be about Truth not about lies. I would rather the kids see this video than actually procure an abortion – being exposed to violent images is not as bad as committing a violent act.
People in the Pro-Life movement need to re-take the school system…that is where the liberals poisoned our minds, and it is where they will poison the minds of our children, and our neighbors’ children.
Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Phillipians 4:8.
I tried to watch this, closed it. Reopened it and tried to fast-forward to the portion that Jill said the child “survived” hoping for a glimmer of something good. This is disheartening to my spirit and my soul. I am sufficiently saddened by the reality of abortion but watching something that saddens my spirit and only anesthetizes me to the gore and violence of this is not in a spirit of service to the Lord. Had to listen to some Christian music to clean my spirit.
I believe abortion is evil just like the rest of the posters here. The fact that it occurs so commonly saddens me. I don’t need to see something like this to prove that point. I have had a child grow inside me, I knew she was a life then just like she is now. I don’t need to see something that grieves my spirit like this so.
Many already know abortion is wrong, showing graphic images such as these will not “change their minds” but only disgust them more and sear their consciences. This is abhorrent and does not glorify God. Let the pro-life movement win hearts with love and compassion, with all things that are good as said in Phillipians, not with this vileness that only glorifies the devil.
God help us. That’s all I can think right now…
Jill, are you going to weigh in on this? I wish you would! Your pro-life online family sees you in a position of wisdom and leadership here. And (no sarcasm, a tone of perfect meekness) we would like to know what your opinion is on this video.
to address the pro lifer who shot the video i will say this. he or she could not stop the abortions because this person would have been in deep trouble. they had to stand by and watch the murder. look at the carnage. as much as compassionate people would love to grab up this baby boy and hold him….we cant! its the law of the land. the supreme court backs it the president backs it. our first lady backs it. we can watch it and become more passionate about being pro life. pro choicers can watch it and let them mock it. i would only expect it because thats what they do when they have no defense. trust me…..they have no defense! thats why they curse and scream and make sickening jokes. huh let em. god knows what they did. they know what they did.
yeah joan….even my friends who have had abortions dont tell jokes about it. youre on your own with others who share the same reprobate mind. dont forget thatb somewhere in scripture it says something about “they will be turned over to a reprobate mind” many of my post abortive friends have expressed remorse and sorrow. they dont say sick things like you do joan. same for lisa c. you have both exchanged the truth for a lie. its sunday joan. and today i will pray for you and lisa to get well before its too late. i must pray for you because its my duty. i hope you change joan. i hope you change before its too late. let go of that guilt and hardness of heart. i dont care if you have had 1 abortion or multiples. god can take your sin and it will be forgotten. the choice is yours joan. you still have a “choice”. i will be praying for you.
I agree with what you just said Heather. My post-abortive friends also don’t laugh over their abortions. Even the ones who say they are still “pro-choice” cry over their babies, wonder if they were boys or girls, and say vehemently “I will NEVER have another abortion!”
Joan, there is such a cancer eating at your soul.
sydney m. i hope youre feeling well. ive been meaning to tell you. and i have been pregnant while on this blog and felt my babies kicking. worried when they were not. and i just cant wrap my head around it. how? and yes i have the same type of friends you do. even some who dont express remorse but they do not joke. that is so very inappropriate. i have thought what you have just said. joan has cancer. cancer of the soul.
Tyler,
Totally agree. Every high schooler should see it before graduating. Every woman should see it before even considering having an abortion!!
I often wonder why the babies are never shown to the mother after they are aborted? Too traumatizing right?? If murdering babies is too traumatizing perhaps we shouldn’t be doing it? Can you imagine how traumatizing it was to the baby?
Heather,
Filming something that is perfectly legal to do. Crazy.
yes carla…..morally acceptable? id even say morally necessary. and i just got my bible out here we go….. deuteronomy 27 25 cursed is a man who taketh reward to slay an innocent person.
romans; 1 28 and even as they did not like to retain god in their knowledge god gave them over to a reprobate mind to those things which are not convenient. ………also in romans professing themselves to be wise they became fools.
i think the best education on abortion comes from people on the front lines. former abortionists clinic workers. women who regret their abortions….i believe former abortionist anthony levitino remarked “my wife and i wanted to adopt children and you just wish you could take a baby from the aborting mother but it doesnt work that way. we were just throwing them in the garbage.” yet another remarked that he had to quit because of what id written from deuteronomy. he stated “i realized i was just a paid hit man.” clinic worker and post abortive mother carol everett said “while i was working at the clinic some girl came in and said she was a model and bragged that she never wore underwear with skirts. the doctor started her abortion and pulled the bowel through her vagina. we had to transfer her to a hospital where she underwent 7 hrs. of surgery. that baby was disposed of during her surgery and im not sure if it was dead or alive. the girl ended up with a colostomy bag. while i was an employee at the clinic i saw countless botched abortions where 9 women required hysterectomies. one died and it was covered up. but the worst part for me was realizing that id killed my own baby through abortion.”
If open heart surgery can be shown on tv, why not this? Abortion is no different than any other surgery, right pro-aborts?
“The person did not tell me how s/he got access, or where the abortions were filmed, because to do so would risk losing access.”
Does that mean that those who are granting access don’t know to what use this videos are being used? In other words, the videographer is there under false pretenses?
And regarding the videos. How do we know that they are not fake? Have they been vetted be medical authorities? Who are the people behind the “Grantham Collection” and if these videos are real, which facilities are granting them access? If, as Ms. Stanek suggests, revealing information would jeopardize access, one questions whether the disclosure might initiate a law suit.
But what is troubling are some of the comments about how the videographer should have stopped the abortion which would have left the woman bleeding to death if the stoppage was in the middle of the procedure. Not only would the videographer been charged with assault; but the woman, whose abortion was interrupted, would have the right to sue both the videographer and the facility that allowed this to take place. Scott Roeder’s defense of his assassination of Dr. Tiller was that he was stopping more murders. Some of the comments here are reminiscent of that.
But again, the secretiveness of ”Grantham Instruments” is very suspicious. It’s not surprising that the anti-choice movemen, who bray constantly about the “criminality” of Planned Parenthood, has no problem with what is, legally, very questionable. If “Grantham Instruments” wants any credibility it needs to provide full disclosure of who it is.
This is an interesting new look at the “instruments” of the anti-abortion movement. Very, very interesting and worth following up.
“If open heart surgery can be shown on tv, why not this?”
Any surgery shown on TV has full background information on where the surgery is taking place. As a pro-abort (and what is with that strange syntax?) I have no problem with abortions being shown on TV as long as it is within the full parameters of HPPA.
And BTW, if you want high school kids to see abortion surgery, then show them child-birth in tandem with the lesson on why contraception (or abstinence) is so important!
Ah, the joy of the internet. The Grantham Collection is owned by Randi Grantham who is a pro-life artist and has been visited in the past by the FBI. Hmmm…..Looks like he’s moved on from the sculpture to video. Interesting.
How do we know they are not fake? Really, you don’t think they covered their butts with this?
Honestly, if you think they are fake, then, tell me, what do you think an abortion (especially a second trimester abortion) looks like?
Late to the conversation but I’ll chime in:
Filming this is perfectly moral and in no way causes her to in and of itself be a party to the action filmed. There are many cases where we inheriently understand this. A bystander filming police or military brutality isn’t looked poorly upon for not throwing their body into the fray. In fact they are looked upon favorfully for having had the bravery to fill when most would have turned away. If you have detailed knowledge of a murder about to take place that you were physically incapable of stopping and you couldn’t get the police to believe you, you be lauded as brave to hiding nearby and filming the murder so there would be proof.
No one is under any moral or legal obligation to keep another from commiting a sin or crime. In fact it’s illegal for us to do so in many instances! We can not tie and lock a rebellious teenager in their room to keep them from leaving to smoke meth with some friends, and that is someone we have legal guardianship over! A persons choice to do evil is completely outside anyone else’s control. We recognize a civic duty to help the victim of a situation if we are able, like trying to talk a terrorist into letting hostages go, and we praise the sacrifice of those who give their all to protect another, like taking a bullet meant for another or getting hit by a car because we pushed someone else out of the way. But these are examples of willing moral exceptionalism, not obligatory moral actions.
If a video, picture, audiotape, recounting etc, of an immoral act can lead even a single other to not follow the same path then the author/procurer can be lauded for finding a way to help future victims when they were unable to help a past one. They have taken a moment of helplessness in the wake of an evil too large for a single person to physically confront and used it to give many people a way to confront it in a means that will help.
As for the legalities of it *shrug* I could care less. I am called to submit to man’s law as long as it does not conflict with God’s law. If following God’s law requires me to break man’s law, so be it. I would do so if needbe, but if I was tried by man I would admit my guilt in breaking man’s law and receiving whatever punishment man’s law demanded of me.
oh cc hogwash! i have been on the sidewalk and cops swarmed us. one day the paranoid abortionist called the fbi. the guy just flashed a badge asked a few questions and left. same with the cops as one came to me and studied the aborted baby head. he remarked “my god is that what they do? horrible!” so hahaha
Yeah, they’re fake CC. What? You really thought unborn babies were actual blobs? Talk to women like Bethany and Carla who have held their miscarried children. They actually do have tiny faces and little tootsies and arms and legs.
I had several early ultrasounds with both of my sons… arms, legs, head, body, fingers, toes… moving and kicking. Not blobs. This video is absolutely showing abortions.
And yes, the photos of abortions have already been documented by former abortionist.. I THINK its Anthony Levitano but I am not sure. I can’t remember which abortionist turned pro-lifer it is. But Monica Migliorino did have them authenticated. Just for people like you who still think the earth is flat and that unborn babies are blobs and “real babies” are brought by the stork.
“I am called to submit to man’s law as long as it does not conflict with God’s law. If following God’s law requires me to break man’s law, so be it. I would do so if needbe, but if I was tried by man I would admit my guilt in breaking man’s law and receiving whatever punishment man’s law demanded of me.”
Scott Roeder, Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, John Salvi, James Kopp couldn’t have said it better. So much for the law abiding right to life.
“As for the legalities of it *shrug* I could care less”
Thanks for the screen print. It’s a great keeper to post on pro-choice websites. And if you do, in the service of “life,” break the law, there’s this comment to support the prosecution.
and i guess everything pro life is just fake like the web site ‘cemetery of choice’ …..nope women couldnt possibly die from safe legal abortions now could they? what did cc think an abortion would look like? a blob of cherry jello? cc the walls are closing in on you and the others who wish to make abortion clean sterile popular guilt free. no cc no! face the horrific music!
Watched it. I’m sick. God help us.
CC,
Did you watch the video?
Please link to any videos you have of “real” abortions. Thank you.
cc the fact that someone doesnt abide by the law is not my problem! why do you go off topic? we arent discussing paul hill and others right now. we are discussing your side right now and the evil killing you support. i dont break the dog gone law so what is your point? im waiting for the priest molestation now.
I don’t know why I’m even going to do this but…
1)That wasn’t a video of “an abortion” that was a video of a compilation of abortion scenes. There was clearly a plethora of video to choose from for the director to make their point.
2)The music reminded me of crappy D class horror movies you’d find on you tube.
3)Oh, and that “moving leg” from the “surviving fetus”… well… let me first preface this… when was the last time any of you took a bath and tried to keep your foot on the side of the tub without it sliding? or when was the last time you tried to stand in one place on a slippery slanted surface? Yeah, no imagine a slippery liquid being placed on a metal bowl, and see what happens. Yes, it moves, gasp, the horror, it must have survived… no, it’s called gravity.
4)As for the question, I can’t really answer, seeing as I’m not “pro-life” (not according to you guys anyway). I do think that it’s relatively normal for some medical procedures to be photographed and videographed for future educational use, and that’s fine. Releasing such videos to you tube, not fine.
5)So, what it’s an abortion. Still not a baby, still a fetus. Still legal. Still a woman’s choice.
Jack, after seeing your comments, I decided to watch it. I know you and I don’t always agree (the few times I have commented) but I don’t think you’re any less pro-life for not wanting to subject yourself to useless gore fetishes. I’m sure you and I could have many productive conversations outside this thread about other issues both directly and indirectly related to abortion pros/cons.
Jill, as I’ve told you in the interview, when you asked me if I’ve ever seen an abortion… If videos like this count for your crowd as having seen them, if videos like this are what is shown in those fake clinics, than I’ve seen an abortion just as truthfully as those people you’re trying to convert. So what, it’s an abortion. Open heart surgery isn’t pleasent to watch either, neither is liposuction. I’m still pro-choice.
Best regards everyone,
Duck
yes former abortionist anthony levatino did indeed turn pro life after his adopted daughter named heather was killed after being hit by a car.
duck what would you care as a typical heartless pro deather? youve got your life so thats all that matters. typical self absorbed type.
Heather, I’m not a pro-deather. I’m against war, the death penalty, I’m for universal health care instead of privatized only who can afford it sick care, I’m pro adoption and fostering, I’m pro peace. In order for any living thing to become a member of it’s species, it must be born, whether that’s through the breaking through of the eggshell, the birth, the breaking out of the seed, or the full split after mitosis of single celled organisms, once it’s born, it is a full member of its species. Once it’s born, it has every right that all the other members of its species do. Here in America, once its born as a human, that includes the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But, sure, let’s force all these births, we sure need more poor saps to be conscripted into the military for our wars, cause they’ll have no other realistic option in life… Yeah, call me what you want, I’m comfortable with myself, your words don’t matter to me.
I’ve never seen an abortion so I don’t know what they look like but this thing makes George Romero look like Steve Spielberg. But you guys believe it on faith alone, so whatever. Given the high tech cinematogrophy (chortle), the background music was old school 50’s sci-fi. But the thought occured to me that if this was staged and a woman actually posed as the patient, it would be considered porn. If that’s the case, it really deserved some throbbing porno tracks.
Too bad we don’t know who filmed this, because he/she should enter this in Sundance. And given it’s high level, it should be submitted for an Ocscar for best documentary. The special effects deserve an award too. I loved the waxy “hands.”
Oh okay Duck. Watch the video again. The baby boy also moved his ARM. Was that gravity too? It didn’t slip, he clearly tucked it up towards his body.
And whether he survived the abortion, didn’t survive the abortion, I’d think even you could clearly see he is a human being and did not deserve to be killed.
but duck is pro abortion and abortion is murder COLD BLOODED MURDER …….so if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck its a duck. and duck supports cold blooded murder……..have a nice life.
Duck, what about being born changes that same organism from non-human being to human being? is there something magical about vaginas? How bout c-sections? So a baby born at 24 weeks who survives is a human being but another baby of the SAME AGE can be aborted because he/she has not made that magical trip down the personhood-bestowing vagina?
What a bunch of arbitrary nonsense.
arbitrary/smarbitrary. everyone’s got their arbitrary issues. Whatever.
Arbitrary is okay when it comes to why you painted your bedroom red instead of blue. Arbitrary is okay when it comes to why you bought a Ford instead of a Toyota. But when it comes to whether children live or die? You are seriously lacking a conscience as well.
And as always, you didn’t answer my question. How do vaginas turn fetuses into people who are suddenly worth protecting? Answer the question Duck!
Sydney, the question is already answered. You just aparantly don’t like it. I said birth, whether that’s an eggshell, a seed coat, or as you want me to say vagina… it’s still the same. Birth signifies joining the community of the species.
oh yeah and why do we bother to save preemies? shouldnt we just let them die also duck? some of them are only one pound…… didnt make it through 40 weeks of pregnancy. how dare you sit there and say it was gravity? it was a baby. and now hes a DEAD baby. and by the way fetus is latin for “little one”…….where you aware oh wise one?
Oh, and that arm, yeah I watched it again just for you. That arm was in the air and falling down. So I imagine, if we were watching the unedited clip, we would have seen that the removed fetus was just put into that bowl, and that would be why the arm was falling down (gravity) and that the leg was slipping (gravity and the law of friction). So yeah, still gravity.
Heather, I’m aware of where the term fetus comes from. However, in english, medically, and legally, a fetus is not a baby.
oh, and preemies are born. It’s quite obvious they’re born. They’re a member of the community of the species.
so duck comes here and knows nothing. i figured as much.
The rabbi says, “the fetus remains only a potential human life until its emergence from the birth canal.” And this is why the preponderance of Jews are pro-choice. I find this “Mishna” based argument compelling. You don’t. And that’s why there will, most likely, never be consensus on abortion. And until the SCOTUS overturns Roe, and even the staunchest of the conservatives don’t seem to want to do that, abortion is fully legal, albeit with different parameters given the state.
BESIDES the point Duck, whether that baby boy’s arm was falling from gravity or WHATEVER, please explain to me why it was acceptable to kill him. He is clearly a human being. Explain.
And I understand you believe birth somehow grants magical or special biological powers that transform fetuses into people. I get that. I am asking WHY.
Abortionists have talked about how in one room they were killing 24 week old babies in the womb and rushing down the hall to the next room trying to stop labor in a woman and save her 24 week old baby. And how insanity and irony was not lost on this abortionist. Why is one life okay to kill but the next life was worth saving?
Any pro-lifers remember what book that was from? I cannot for the life of me remember the title.
duck you said arm? something that isnt human doesnt HAVE AN ARM!!!! again you got caught up. and im a friggin nurse and yes a fetus is human!!!!!!
“the fetus remains only a potential human life until its emergence from the birth canal.”
Well, how scientific. Golly, gee! Dem rabbis sure is smart! CC, you sure are edumacated and all… the science of that statement and your beliefs is gee golly, amazin! I sure wish you could explain to a dunderhead like me how the birth canal changes a potential human life to an actual human life.
CC, I’m assuming those names are the tiny, tiny, tiny minority of the pro-life movement that decided to kill an abortionists. I could (and people have, read Lime 5 for instance) fill pages with names of abortionists who have murdered (adult humans). Feel free to keep the screen shot all you want, as I said, if I’m ever before a judge and jury I will tell the truth, I don’t lie.
And what I’m saying isn’t shocking, or even interesting, but it is a huge reason why Christians have been pursecuted since Christ. It was law in the Roman nation to burn insense and say “Cesar is God” once a year. Christians refused and were executed. If America tomorrow makes it illegal to own a Bible (as it is in many places of the world) the Christians won’t be throwing their’s out. If my state makes it mandatory for me to say “Praise Allah” I won’t be doing that either. If it becomes required to give my children to the state to raise when they turn 3 (as it is in some countries) you can be assured…I and most Christians will not be abiding. It is no secret that Christians obey God’s law over man’s.
What is unconsciousable to me is when someone gets up and pleads not guilty to a ‘crime’ they *legally* commited. The judge isn’t asking if you are innocent of sin, they are asking if you are innocent of breaking the law. That was the only thing more surpising then ‘water’s wet’ in my previous statement you are so gleeful about. Seriously, there isn’t a Christian worth the name that follows mans law above Gods, and not one worth his salt that would lie about it either.
Doesn’t mean I support killing abortionistst. Killing an abortionist does nothing, it doesn’t legally avenge a murder as an execution does, it doesn’t prevent a murder (because killing *one* abortionists no more stops the abortion industry than killing one tobacco farmer would stop people from smoking, you are preventing nothing), and it isn’t a battlefield killing by a solider. It’s a murder and, guess what, God says don’t murder.
haha cc couldnt care less. be careful……my husband is jewish and he is pro life!!!!! semantics ya know.
Did I ever say that a fetus couldn’t be a human fetus? I mean, I know it’s not a canine fetus, it’s clearly a Homo sapien sapien fetus, but still, it doesn’t join the community of the species till birth. Oh and no arms for humans? I’ll make sure I tell that to the local VA war vets without arms.
Wow, the abortion fans are professional at missing the point.
It’s an interesting question, does one think it’s moral to photograph an atrocity without stopping it in its progress? I wouldn’t be in an abortion clinic working to begin with, but if I saw an atrocity happening that I was in fact powerless to stop, like a bridge collapse from afar, yes I might record it.
If find it interesting that the abortion advocates’ chief concerns are for the mother’s comfort and privacy. Sure, that is something worth being concerned about. Absent in abundance is their respect for the lives of tiny human beings. We ALL start out as tiny human beings and it’s a shame that abortion advocates don’t exhibit the most basic level of human compassion. It’s never too late, you know, you can always choose life.
“the science of that statement and your beliefs is gee golly, amazin! I sure wish you could explain to a dunderhead like me how the birth canal changes a potential human life to an actual human life”
Take it up with a rabbi. But I do find it interesting that while you folks think I’m a Catholic basher, you’re fine with mocking Judaism. It’s a reality, Syndey, uncomfortable as it may be for you, that Jews hold very different views about abortion than to pro-life Christians.
And let’s talk “science.” Why is it that so many medical schools teach their students about abortions and embryology without moral caveats about how this is murder? Even the embryology texts that you lifers are so fond of quoting do not make a moral judgement about abortion. Why is that the “science” community is not clamoring for the banning of abortion?
But your comment regarding Jewish teaching is very revealing as it underscores what Abe F’oxman and the ADL consider to be the underpinning of the radical pro-life movement.
Duck, can you not answer my question? What is it about birth that bestows personhood.?Is there some biological fact that changes who or what the organism is before birth versus after birth? Explain! How does birth make you a person?
“haha cc couldnt care less. be careful……my husband is jewish and he is pro life!!!!! semantics ya know”
He’s in a distinct minority. But unlike Catholicism, he’s free to hold whatever position he wants without fear of excommunication. Not only do most of the official Jewish organizations support pro-choice laws; but many of the BOD’s of PPFA have many Jewish members. At our “Stand for Planned Parenthood” rally, a rabbi addressed the crowd.
Actually, CC, I am not mocking Judaism since all the Jews I know are pro-life. I was mocking an ignoramus like you who thinks a vagina has magical powers to make someone a person.
Want to really know how to stop abortions? Make contraceptives FREE for all who want. . .every single kind and at all times. If I would have had the choice to receive free depo provera shots. . .I would have been able to prevent either of my children from being born into poverty. I love both of my children and don’t regret them. I just wish I could have waited to have them until I was older and more financially secure. But, unfortunately, condoms break and the pill isn’t 100% effective. Depo provera was the only thing that worked for me 100%. But when you can barely afford to keep food in the fridge, the last thing I could have afforded was $60 to get one shot. Every single woman out there deserves the right to choose when SHE wants to get pregnant. It is her body. Give women access to free birth control no matter where they live. . .and see if unwanted pregnancies, abortions, maybe even some child abuse (I can only hope) would diminish.
this video is so haunting once you can stand to watch it. I cannot imagine how someone would allow that to be filmed. I boggles the mind. to watch a child being murdered like that and yes he did survive for a moment and moved. This should be required viewing for anyone considering abortion. All the rhetoric and fancy slogans melt away when you see this. this also is important for the pro life movement to watch. We must come together to end this slaughter of the innocents.
this video is so haunting once you can stand to watch it. I cannot imagine how someone would allow that to be filmed. I boggles the mind. to watch a child being murdered like that and yes he did survive for a moment and moved. This should be required viewing for anyone considering abortion. All the rhetoric and fancy slogans melt away when you see this. this also is important for the pro life movement to watch. We must come together to end this slaughter of the innocence.
I find it really interesting that both CC and Duck cannot explain how a trip down a tube of muscle inside a woman bestows personhood or makes a “potential human” an actual human.
Instead, since they can’t answer the question (because the very beliefs they hold are inane) they erect straw men about how I must be mocking Judaism or we’re putting down veterans without arms or how gravity made the baby boy in the pan move.
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS POSED TO YOU CC AND DUCK.
But we know why you can’t. You don’t want to focus on how the baby boy in the pan was a human being unjustly killed. You don’t want to talk about birth doesn’t change who or what the baby is. It only changes location. The being is the same being inside the womb and outside of the womb and science supports that.
Keep erecting your straw men. I know why you’re guilty consciences won’t let you consider the matter more deeply. You know you’re wrong and its uncomfortable to be on the wrong side when it comes to killing children.
“Jewish teachings say that while the soul exists before birth, life begins only when a baby emerges from the womb.”
Guess it all depends on definitions of “life” and “personhood.” As seen by the differences in teachings, it varies.
Jennifer, is it that hard to walk into a store and purchase condoms? I don’t want my hard earned money going to purchase your hormonal birth control so you can kill your newly conceived children. Access to birth control is so easy with all the millions our government already spends on “family planning” right? If you are grown enough to have sex you are grown enough to buy your own birth control. If you can’t afford birth control you shouldn’t be having sex. period.
“Actually, CC, I am not mocking Judaism since all the Jews I know are pro-life. I was mocking an ignoramus like you who thinks a vagina has magical powers to make someone a person.”
You are clearly mocking Jewish teachings which I sourced.
“Jewish teachings say that while the soul exists before birth, life begins only when a baby emerges from the womb.”
This is from a Jewish women’s website. You obviously think that they are ignoramuses. So please tell your Jewish pro-choice friends that their fellow Jews, who based their views on Talmudic teachings, are stupid. Please.
This is a complex debate in general, and regarding the specific issues being discussed above, I have no comment (primarily because I have not read all of the comments posted above my own), but I would like to say as a historian who studies the history of abolitionism that there were certain abolitionists in Britain and America who infiltrated the slave trade, and slave plantation in order to gather information about the gross inhumanity of slavery and report it to all of the lukewarm people out there who refused to see slavery for what it was; a monstrosity.
This footage does depict the monstrosity of abortion and can be used for the same purpose. Indeed, I will be showing this footage on a university campus in the near future as a modern day abolitionist.
On the other hand, were I to be behind that camera, there may have been more deaths to film than just one. But then again, I would never put myself in that position.
Ian John Philoponus
AHA’s general postion on the use of graphic images can be found here: http://www.abolishhumanabortion.com/2011/10/true-horror-taking-place-in-our-country.html
Oh I’m sorry Sydney, that my life and eating a meal, and cleaning my kitchen got in the way to deal with your annoying insistence. I have already answered that question. It is a process that all living things must go through. Birth. Birth in the form of the leaving the mother’s womb through c-section or vaginal birth, birth in the form of emerging from the seed coat with the cotyloden leaves, birth in the form of busting through the eggshell, birth in the form of mitosis being complete and two single celled organisms going on with their life cycle apart. Yes, birth, is the end all be all definitive process all living things must go through to become a member of their community of species. So, again, I’ve answered the question. It is that process in it of itself, that makes it special. It’s not a straw man argument. There are a great many spiritual traditions that believe the soul doesn’t enter the body until birth. So, I’m done with your annoying insistence that I didn’t answer. Just because you choose to disagree with me, does not equal me not answering the question.
@ ninek you called it ….cc came to tell you that all jews are pro choice which is a blatant lie. in 3 ~ 2 ~ 1 and proof cc that my husband and his brother are in the minority?????
CC, I am mocking you because you source other people who say “The vagina makes people, well, people!” Use YOUR brain for a moment. Answer my question. How does birth change an organism from potential human life to actual human life. Why cannot you not answer such a simple question. If you are so sure of your beliefs, answer the question instead of erecting racially charged straw men.
“Indeed, I will be showing this footage on a university campus in the near future as a modern day abolitionist.”
What accredited university would allow the screening of unsourced material that may be in violation of HPPA regs?
All I said was to give women access to free birth control of their choosing that works for them and see how it might better our country. Why couldn’t we figure out some way to cut the defense budget of our country and put some of that money to provide free contraceptives. . . contraceptives that would PREVENT becoming pregnant in the first place. It wouldn’t affect a fetus because there wouldn’t be a fetus to affect. Preventing these pregnancies would decrease the need to have an abortion. You are willing to let your tax dollars go to killing innocent women, children, babies, and unborn fetuses all over the world. . .but you wouldn’t want your tax dollars to go towards preventing unwanted children from being born, possibly into poverty,abuse, neglect. . .? That makes all the sense in the world.
Answer my question. How does birth change an organism from potential human life to actual human life
Duck answered it quite well. And his/her position, interestingly, dovetails with rabbinic teachings. If you don’t agree with that, it’s your business but for you to say that Jews who believe this are stupid, that’s another thing.
ninek you called it ….cc came to tell you that all jews are pro choice which is a blatant lie. in 3 ~ 2 ~ 1 and proof cc that my husband and his brother are in the minority????
Heather, you might try reading my comments more carefully. I said this:
“And this is why the preponderance of Jews are pro-choice”
Google “preponderance.” It doesn’t mean “all.” And while you’re at it, google the scientifically valid and reliable data on Gallup, Pew, and other mainstream polls which support my statement.
yeah jennifer….im going to second what sydney said……i dont want to pay for your birth control. stop having sex. go buy condoms. dont kill your children on my tax dollars. im sorry youre poor. so am i. i took birth control for years….depo and i regret it. try to focus on the children you love and remember poor children do not deserve the death penalty!
CC, Duck did NOT answer my question. Please paraphrase him then since obviously it didn’t penetrate my thick skull.
Jennifer H…. if you were familiar with how hormonal contraceptives work you would not be so amazed at my position on that.
Duck, you explained what birth is. DUH. I know what birth is. I’ve given it once and am getting ready to give it again this spring. So don’t really need some silly man explaining birth to ME.
Since you’re obviously a little dense, I’ll ask again. And please, take all the time you need to answer. I know this is tough for you.
HOW does birth take “potential human life” and transform it into actual human life. Please explain scientifically. What happens during birth that changes the organism from potential to actual human life. Is this question THAT hard? Really? You and CC hop and dance around the question. I don’t know why I try to have a conversation with you. You have about as much sense as my little toe.
Again, Duck, I know what birth IS. But how nice for a man to condescendingly explain birth to a woman who has done it once and about to do it again. I know more about birth than you’ll ever know. I know what it IS. Explain WHY or HOW it makes a potential human life an actual one. I await your deep thought response as always.
Jennifer Hedges, you’re arguing from a fallacy: that contraceptives prevent abortions. But that’s not true. Every country and area that has seen an increase in contraceptive use has seen a corisponding or greater increase in abortion. Contraceptives don’t stop abortions. And even depo isn’t 100%. Also it can be found free at many places, including not only PP but free health clinics, country health offices, under medicaid, state sponsored insurance, and even some standard doctor’s offices will do depo for just the cost of the shot ($15 some 7 years ago at my doctor’s office).
It also argues that hormonal birth control is a drug *worth* giving out like candy. It isn’t. It is a dangerous, damaging, extremely strong medication with an insane amount of side effects. In a CDC report only 2% of women not currently on birth control listed ‘lack of access’ as the reason. There *is* not a ‘lack of access’ of birth control of any flavor you want. The vast majority (as reported by the CDC and others) of women who aren’t on birth control because the negative side effects are too great. Depo, for instance, can cause extreme weight gain, personality changes, headaches, lack of sex drive, overactive sex drive, drying of vaginal mucus (which can cause tears during even gentle sex which greatly increases the risk of both contracting and passing on of STDs), even a constant period flow. It also raises your risk of osteopreosis, and the risk goes up the longer you are on it. And common things like antibiotics for a sinus infection or uti can make it far less effective. And it, like ‘the pill’ can also allow breakthrough ovulation and subsequent fertilization that ends in an early term abortion. There are also strong contraindicators for it’s use, which means an initial exam and subsequent yearly follow-ups. Frequently missed when it’s handed out like candy on Halloween.
It takes more than a pill or a shot or a piece of latex to avoid abortion.
Thanks for assuming my gender Sydney.
My apologies DUck. I thought you had said you were male before? I could be confusing you with another poster. But don’t feel bad. CC couldn’t answer the question either.
you see how duck just resorted to insulting sydney because hes now cleaning his kitchen as he came ill prepared for this discussion. people like duck are a dime a dozen.
Oh and Jennifer H… before I knew that the pill could kill my newly conceived children I was on Yaz. And got pregnant. So BC does not prevent unplanned pregnancies. It just fosters an attitude of “I’m going to have sex and not be bothered with any children.” Then when pregnancy occurs, those who don’t have a supportive husband like I do see abortion as an option. Then you’ll want us to pay for that too.
Every day I thank God my pill failed and that my son is here and that he was not aborted. I am lucky I found out VERY early in my pregnancy through blood work that I was pregnant. Every day I thank God for blessing me with my two sons even though my husband and I are poor.
Being poor is no excuse to kill children or to have reckless sex or to demand others owe you ANYTHING.
Apology accepted for the gender assumption Sydney. I do stand by my claim, that I answered the question, and that you just disagree. So, I guess at this point, since I have trouble contextualizing it in another way for you to understand what I’m trying to say, maybe one of the other regular readers will understand and be better able to relate it to you. Sydney, as for Heather’s assertion that I was insulting you because of cleaning my kitchen, it was more snark than anything based in relation to your take all the time you want, you still can’t answer… or whatever it was. It was not an insult to you directly, just a snarky response. As I don’t tend to haunt the threads for long periods of time, if someone does come along who can translate my answer between the two of us, let me know. :) You can always email me at duckishighonquack@yahoo.com
Best regards everyone,
Duck
well with a name like duck who cares what your gender is?????? you still cant answer the question.
Ouch heather, way to insult my real life nickname. Many people care what my gender is, like me, my significant other, my family, the people who share restrooms with me, etc.
Definition of birth - The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother.
b. The act or process of bearing young; parturition: the mare’s second birth.
c. The circumstances or conditions relating to this event, as its time or location
With the definition of ‘birth’, the offspring in the video were birthed even if they had outside assistance. Duck says, Birth signifies joining the community of the species. Welcome to our community little ones. Loving, compassionate and caring, aren’t we?
When a women labors and births a dead offspring, it is called stillbirth.
“Jewish teachings say that while the soul exists before birth, life begins only when a baby emerges from the womb.”
I thought the offspring was a fetus until the offspring totally emerged from the womb and vagina? However, it clearly states above, that a baby emerges from the womb. It clearly states that life begins when a baby emerges from the womb. So when someone goes in and helps that baby emerge from the womb, they are giving that baby life?
Praxedes,
Would you say the same of a doctor removing a miscarried or dead fetus? Is it suddenly alive because he removed it past the birth canal? No, so it’s still not a member of the community of the species.
I know we’re all not Catholic here, but His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI had something to say on this subject, linked here. The title: Saving One Life Does Not Justify Taking Another. The article is about adult stem cells, but the title gives the principle. We pro-lifers should not be SO zealous in our cause that we take leave of our principles.
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/insights.cfm?task=show&id=2033
wait…life begins at birth? Then wtf is “fetal demise”? A person can’t die if they’re not alive, and “fetal demise” is a medical term to indicate that a gestating human being has ceased to live = died. THIS MAKES NO SENSE, DUCK AND CC!!! PWEEZE EXPWAIN IT TO MY POOW WIDDOO HEAD!!!
Life and membership are two different things Xalisae. The human cells in my right foot are alive, but that doesn’t make them people.
how about the fact that they are their own human organism rather than another human being makes them people? “Fetal demise” means something. Words mean something. If a “human cell” in your right foot dies, it would not be accurate to say that YOU had met your demise, would it?
If a fetus met it’s demise, it wouldn’t be accurate to say a person met it’s demise.
It would be accurate to say a human being met their (his or her-“it” has a gender, even at that age, and I’d hate to offend your delicate sensibilities again about the gender thing!) demise, as once again, an organism cannot have a demise unless they are LIVING, and a gestating human organism is a living member of our species with their own individual body and structures.
human being
noun
1.
any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
Human being, and human person. Yeah, I’ll pull the person card, again. Birth, is what connontates membership into the community of the species. Sigh. I shouldn’t have to keep repeating myself.
Would you say the same of a doctor removing a miscarried or dead fetus?
Miscarried or dead fetus? Are we talking offspring that is in the womb, partially in the womb, in the birth canal, partially out of the vagina or totally out of the vagina? You are using the term fetus, so I guess you must mean in the womb because otherwise when the mom’s offspring emerges from the womb said offspring is a baby (you said so yourself!) But can there be a term, miscarried fetus? When I miscarried, my sacred offspring was no longer inside my body so the correct term would be miscarried baby. Correct?
Is it suddenly alive because he removed it past the birth canal?
Alive? How can an offspring die in the womb if he/she was never alive in the first place? The offspring doesn’t live until birth, right. You said so. (Oh, btw, women can become doctors too so why do you assume the doctor who helped the woman was a HE? Not much of a feminist, are you?)
No, so it’s still not a member of the community of the species.
Who is IT? The doctor, the mother, the fetus, the baby? Me? You? The Steven King movie? Explain to me who exactly you are referring to when you say IT?
What the duck, Duck? You are so confusing (or maybe just confused).
You can repeat yourself all day, all you’ll ever have is your own opinion. Everything I’ve said is demonstrably true through science. This whole “human person” and “membership into the community of the species” is some philosophical construct YOU have created in your own mind, and you’ve yet to provide any sort of research or scientific principle to support HOW and WHY gestating human beings don’t have “membership into the community of the species”. I would think that being a member of our species and being a living member of our species is enough to constitute “membership”. I didn’t realize you were the bouncer for the entire human race, stopping some human beings at the cervix and demanding a cover charge.
Clearly, readers of this list don’t understand the difference between science and philosophy. Morality and legality. Natural versus culturally learned. And, lastly, the difference between life and pershonhood.
Oh! Oh! Oh! Wait. It was stated tonight that birth is what makes “potential human life” actual human life. Although HOW has STILL NOT BEEN EXPLAINED.
Now Duck is talking about how a dead or miscarried fetus coming through the birth canal does not grant them entrance into the human community. Two things come to mind.
1) I know the vulva does not grant life so its no surprise to me that a dead fetus passing through the birth canal will still be… dead. And Duck admitted that. So much for the theory of “life is bestowed by the birth canal”.
2) I had friends who lost their son at 20 weeks gestation. She birthed him, dead. They had a funeral. They named him. They refer to him. He is their son and talked about by friends and family. Was he then granted admission into the human community? Even though he was a “dead fetus”? Why or why not if passage through the birth canal is all it takes.
So that baby boy in a pan, having passed through a birth canal has been BORN. So if he was still alive he should be protected right? If birth bestows personhood then why did Obama vote to allow aborted babies born alive to be killed?
Duck, I understand well the difference between personhood and life. Its just that I believe all human life = people and you take more of a Hitleresque approach where you can run around like a fairy sprinkling a little personhood here, a little personhood there and removing it from humans you deem somehow unworthy through your arbitrary reasoning.
The problem with a society that has a mindset like yours is that if you take personhood away from some people because you are older, or more developed or stronger than them, one day it may very well be taken away from you. And history has already proven me right.
Ugh, I’m so evil because I disagree with you, oh knowz… Enjoy your ethnocentrism everyone. :)
Best regards,
Duck
Oh, and life and personhood are not the same thing. Hence a dead fetus can’t become alive from passing through the birth canal, regardless of the reason it became dead. Also, a fetus doesn’t get personhood just because it has human dna and not canine. So, birth is required for all things to join the membership of their community, but whether or not cells (or a grouping of cells into a larger organism) is alive, is not the same thing as membership. So, again, I’m done repeating myself. I don’t care if you agree with me. It is what it is.
Duck
Clearly, Sidney and xalisae, we are not as educathed on pershonhood as the Duck is. Or on anything else for that matter. She doesn’t care if we agree with her. She’s got it all covered.
Except for maybe Narcissism vs. Empathy.
But, again, she DOESN’T CARE if we agree with her.
Sigh… empathy is much different that showing academically that there are other legitimate beliefs in the world besides yours.
Duck, I am not saying you are evil because we disagree. I am trying to understand your reasoning. All you keep saying is that you explained it already and we’re too dumb to understand or we refuse to understand because we disagree… but you haven’t actually explained HOW birth makes you a person. I keep asking you and you keep saying you’ve already explained. Well, I am asking politely now, could you or CC please explain again? I have read very carefully everything you posted and I somehow have missed where you explained scientifically how birth transfers personhood. I am asking, how scientifically, does “potential human life” become actual human life during birth?
Or I’ll put it out there for ANY pro-choicer. Please explain this to me! I’m serious!
Sydney, Can you get a social security card for your fetus? No? That’s cause it needs to be born.
My two cents on the morality of the filming, and I apologize if somebody’s already shared this. I have not read through all the comments.
I totally agree with the pro-life advocates who feel graphics are important in bringing to light the reality of abortion, but WHO should do this and HOW to do this would require a very sure conviction that the Lord, and NOT our own impulses/ hopes/ ambitions, is guiding us.
Given the complexity and seriousness of this issue, I’d recommend that the person seek spiritual counsel with a trained spiritual director. To me, this person sounds like he could use help in discerning whether the Father wants him in this picture-taking thing. It seems to me it takes a very special call on our lives and most certainly a unique Grace, that only God can give, to do what he is doing. A spiritual director would be more likely in a better place to help the person discern if this is a call from God. Also, whatever we do for the pro-life movement, like any fight against injustice, must be done in the context of our ever-growing relationship with Christ and our personal commitment to holiness. Hence, a spiritual director could help one see the bigger picture.
Besides all that, I’m wondering why we need more pictures and videos? Don’t we have enough to circulate and distribute?
Sydney, Can you get a social security card for your fetus? No? That’s cause it needs to be born.
What about all the unborn before social security cards? Were they persons?
This still doesn’t answer Sydney’s question of, how scientifically, does “potential human life” become actual human life during birth?
Scientifically vs. Social Security
scientifically life exists in every cell. philosophically is when personhood is bestowed. Ugh, again, the difference between science and philosophy.
Sydney, i’m, as you know if you can remember any of my previous posts, definitively pro-life, but I’m also a debator. I will switch hit for the other side and explain somewhat.
They are, from a very real perspective, incapable of telling you ‘why’ birth makes a person when life does not make a person. It is not because they don’t understand or refuse to answer the question, but rather that, being the basis or to put it in debate terms, their bias, it seems so obvious to them that explaination becomes impossible. Could you explain *why* 2+2=4? Not convincingly, because we have a preconceived bias that 2+2=4 is a truth, such a blatant truth that it’s impossible to explain. Frequently the simpler a thing becomes the more difficult it is to explain to someone who doesn’t understand.
If they evaluated their bias they may come up with some commonalities such as ‘it’s when they can survive independant of the mother’ or ‘it’s when they are no longer physically confined inside abother’s body’ or ‘it’s when the life of breath enters the body’ or ‘it’s when other members of society can interact with them’. They all can be countered, but then, there are extremely intelligent people who deny that time exists, so being able to counter something, even intelligently, does not necessarily make it wrong.
Pro-life starts from the bias that life=person. It seems beyond obvious to us, it is an assumption in our thinking. We use science, philosophy, religion, logic, and persasion to attempt to convince others that our bias is the correct bias to be viewing life through. But we can no more explain *why* being human scientifically makes you a person then they can explain why birth scientifically males you a person.
Pro-choice/aborts start from the bias that life?person, but rather that life+X=person (the X varries).
Abortion isn’t about science, or religion, or culture, it’s about bias. All humans are bias, we are incapable of thinking without a starting point for our thoughts, and that’s not a bad thing. The debates not really between two sides though, it’s between two completely separate world views, world views that are completely incompatible with each other, which is why we try to convince those that hold the opposite view that their bias is wrong and our bias is correct.
But no one can explain the why of a bias, the bias comes first, why only comes after. (Even if you remember why you changed your bias you still wouldn’t be able to give a true response to *why*, it ultimately would come down to ‘i believe’) So, to you, Duck has not answered your question, she has said nothing that explains why life=person. But, likewise, Duck is quite sure she has answered your question, because she’s pointed out that it takes life+birth=person.
apparently human beings/persons didn’t exist before the Social Security program. LMFAO!!!! XD
I will not be granting Duck membership into my community. Duck has not convinced me yet of her personhood. As it stands she is a duck.
I am sorry duck but the fairy wand of personhood is passing right over you.
But we can no more explain *why* being human scientifically makes you a person then they can explain why birth scientifically males you a person.
That’s why I don’t play around with their “person” bullsh!t. HUMAN-FU****G-BEING. You know-things that are provable values and scientifically-based definitions. I don’t play games with mentally ill people.
Scientifically, a new human organism-which is by definition a human being-exists from conception. Legally, we can’t really do anything to protect them until we know they exist, and in the case of abortion, that is after a woman knows she is pregnant. No outlawing of anything but abortion required. (I got pregnant on the pill. If that can happen, the pill causing abortions is bunk. The pill no more causes abortions than does coffee or exercise_.)
Jespren, thank you for being translator, that’s exactly correct.
Xalisae, I never said people didn’t exist before the Social Security program was started, thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Actually Jespren, your explanation made a lot of sense to me. However, I do not understand why the CC’s, Joans and Ducks of the world can not understand that if ALL human beings of ALL stages of life are not persons then they may themselves someday fall into the unfortunate category of “human… but not a person.” If personhood is something that can be granted… or not granted to human beings by other human beings, how is it that CC, Joan, Duck etc.. feel secure that they are “persons” and will always be perceived as such?
What is done to others may be done to you.
Jespren, While you’re translating for people, you might want to also translate that different worldviews don’t equate to mental illnesses.
Carla, can I add to your quote and make it into a bulletin board?:
You will not be given membership into my classroom community. The fairy wand of personhood is passing right over you.
While you’re translating for people, you might want to also translate that different worldviews don’t equate to mental illnesses.
That’s right, Duck. I’ve decided that xalisae decides who has a mental illness. Xalisae has decided you do so *poof* you are now mentally ill. No one tells me who is mentally ill or not, except of course xalisae.
This is my worldview. Sorry if it’s different than yours. Oh well.
Xalisae, I never said people didn’t exist before the Social Security program was started, thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Of course you didn’t say that, that would be ABSURD!!! You simply implied that the ability to get one’s social security card was some sort of proof of being a “person”, which is not insane at all and makes perfect sense! Undocumented illegals also are not persons, nor are human beings who live in remote areas who never bothered going down into their nearest town to get them, or don’t even know they exist! It all makes sense to me now! XD
Sydney, I’m glad we found a translator :)
But to answer your new question, because there are hundreds (possibly literally a great many more) of cultural worldviews that view personhood beginning at or after birth. Most of these groups live in harmony with each other, without calling for all the others to convert or go to hell/die/etc. So, what is done to others may be done to you. How do you know that you won’t be treated like the evil going to hell spawn of the devil someday?
I don’t care if others think I’m going to hell. However, I do care very much if someone would try to kill me if I didn’t convert to their religion. Which is why I would never threaten someone with death in order to make them convert to my religion. I subscribe to the whole “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I want to always be considered a person. I don’t want some arbitrary rules of intellect or location to take away my right to be a person. So I won’t do that to others. That includes ALL human beings.
I want my life to be respected so I respect the right of other human beings to their life.
Duck, thank you, but…as for your request…well, no having a different worldview doesn’t equate to a mental illness, but the mental gymnastics that are requires to hold certain viewpoints do, I believe, require a mental illness of sorts to hold. Which, however, I will leave to others, since, as a Biblical Christian my views on that differ significantly than even most of those here. But don’t worry, most ‘mental’ illnesses are completely reverseable.
Sydney, that particular overlooked cause and effect i’d chaulk up to human’s natural inclination to believe they are invincible. It’s less prevelent as people age, but unfortunately it’s a pretty common trait. “It can never happen to me!” is another one of those bias things that, regretably, more than not hold to. (It’s actually pretty funny when people learn it *can* happen to them, at least in none serious things.)
Jespren, when you think about it, that bias is probably part of the reason someone might be in a position to abort in the first place, and after aborting, retaining that bias, it would make sense that they would fail to see the possibility for the same “not a person” b.s. to be applied to them.
“But to answer your new question, because there are hundreds (possibly literally a great many more) of cultural worldviews that view personhood beginning at or after birth.”
Does that automatically make it NOT a human rights violation? You simply have to go a few years back in history to see things that you and every other sane person would find repugnant being accepted by the majority of cultures/religions/worldviews. Institutionalized racism, degradation of women and treating them legally like property, child labor, etc. Most cultures in the developed world have evolved to criminalize and stigmatize these things. Why is it so impossible for legal abortion to be another great wrong that future generations wouldn’t dream of doing?
“Most of these groups live in harmony with each other, without calling for all the others to convert or go to hell/die/etc. So, what is done to others may be done to you. How do you know that you won’t be treated like the evil going to hell spawn of the devil someday? ”
First, not all pro-lifers are religious, and not even all of the religious pro-lifers are Christians or even believe in hell. And I am curious about your views on culture. You don’t think that pro-choice people “call for others to convert” to their way of thinking, or at the very least attempt to sway sentiment away from a pro-life point of view? Why are you here debating then, if not to sway people and hopefully change some minds? As for the hell thing, I have heard people on both sides crow about how their opponents are going to burn. I find it irritating coming from either side.
why is contraception always pushed as the answer to reducing abortions? it doesn’t! 1 MILLION ABORTIONS a year is a testament to that! And that’s just the surgical! Who knows how many chemical RU 486 abortions happen?! And then there’s the ones that are caused by the pill because yes, BREAKTHROUGH OVULATION does happen!
maybe a little encouragement to wait….IT IS POSSIBLE! Its called SELF CONTROL. Perhaps if girls also had help with their self esteem, they would not fall for the “if you loved me you’d have sex with me” line. Same with guys….they need to be taught to respect their mothers and sisters.
The Silent scream was a video on a sonogram of an abortion. We need to show America the truth!
They have surgeries on television…or they used to…..heart surgeries and what not….so why so afraid of showing an abortion? Are they afraid people might have nightmares? Might see the HUMANITY OF THE BABY?
What if the abortion was filmed by someone who was neutral about abortion…but after witnessing it…..BECAME pro life…that’s the only time I can see it being moral.
“why is contraception always pushed as the answer to reducing abortions? it doesn’t! 1 MILLION ABORTIONS a year is a testament to that!”
How do you know that it wouldn’t be two or five or ten million abortions a year if contraception wasn’t accessible and affordable to most people? The commonly-cited number of one million abortions a year is meaningless without context. It says absolutely nothing about contraceptives.
” If personhood is something that can be granted… or not granted to human beings by other human beings, how is it that CC, Joan, Duck etc.. feel secure that they are “persons” and will always be perceived as such?”
I guess I’m feeling masochistic tonight, because I’m going to try and reason with you again in this thread. First, “personhood” is always “granted” by other human beings, through the relevant mechanisms of governmental mandate (the embodiment of our sustained collective judgment in a classical-sense liberal, democratic society that is based on the concept of a social contract). If it wasn’t, there would be nothing to discuss, because the “personhood debate” this site agitates for would be as redundant and nonsensical as having a philosophical dialogue concerning whether human beings should be recognized as carbon-based life or not. The mere fact that one can coherently discuss who or what should be recognized as a “person” should make it obvious that it’s a matter of normative valuation, not empiricism, and must be approached on those terms. Secondly, your insinuation of a slippery slope is just silly, because if society’s sustained collective judgment (or, following some catastrophic government upheaval, an authoritarian diktat) has concluded that the members of such and such class of people that you or I happen to belong to are no longer recognized as “persons”, then the state of affairs will be what it will be, regardless of whether or not society, at some previous point in time, determined that the “unborn” are “people”.
And then there’s the ones that are caused by the pill because yes, BREAKTHROUGH OVULATION does happen!And then there’s the ones that are caused by the pill because yes, BREAKTHROUGH OVULATION does happen!
Yeah. And so does implantation, even while on the pill. And sometimes regular ovulation occurs in a woman who is sick, under a great deal of stress, hyped up on caffeine, watching their figure and exercising, and their embryo fails to implant because of that. I’m not about to call any of those things “abortificents” and that those women have caused an abortion in themselves. That’s ALSO insane.
But welcome to why the personhood initiative failed. Too bad we can’t stick to strictly outlawing actual medical abortion and maybe succeed or at least make some headway. THEN you all could move on to chasing windmills after millions of lives are saved every year and I could be done with this mess.
*____Counter-productive in-fighting goes under this line____*
Is this like the stuff on here’s the blood.com?
Someone got cc a drum for her birthday that says ‘I wish all Jews were pro-choice!’ and she just keeps banging away on it no matter what, lol! Hey cc, why do you even care whether or not Jews are pro-choice anyway?
You despise religion, don’t you? Aren’t believers just a bunch of troglodytes to all you super intelligent aryan-wanna-be’s from rhode island??? Do you despise Christians only while aspiring to be a Jew yourself? Do elderly atheist wiccans actually convert to Judaism?
‘The rich get richer and the poor get babies’, that’s your other drum that you keep beating. Curious. I wonder if all persons from New England have the a similar obsession with pro-choice Jews and murdering the poor?? Maybe I should conduct a survey. Which website do you recommend I start with? Deadbabiessolvealltheworldsproblems.com or ihavenopointbutcantkeepoffprolifesites.org ???
Joan, the number of abortions has increased each year as the number of birth control pills and devices has increased. Back in the 60’s there were not 1.2 million abortions a year. Only a couple hundred women died each year (I don’t say “only” as if these women have no value btw) But if there were 1.2 million abortions occurring in the 60’s and only a couple hundred women were dying of complications then I would say the hysteria over “back alley abortions” and “quacks and butchers” etc.. would be unfounded.
The fact is when abortion was illegal most families found other ways to deal with unplanned pregnancy other than killing the child. The pill was introduced, abortion was legalized and yet the rate of unplanned pregnancy rose right along with abortion rates.
Ninek, Atheist wiccans is an oxymoron. Atheists believe there is no god. Wiccans believe there is a creator god and goddess, and a great many representations of those dieties in every day life. If you’re going to go off on tangents criticizing other religions, you might want to make sure your accurately depicting them first.
To all the elderly wiccans and aryan atheists I may have offended with my post, I apologize!!! I was having a little fun with my favorite troll. :>) ! I’ve missed cc because I’ve been so busy, and I’m hurt she hasn’t quoted me on her blog for over a week, :>( .
I know some Wiccans myself, some of the not-so-young variety; they believe in something else too: having a sense of humor! Methinks some of you take yourself too seriously. Say, that reminds me, is it true that a duck weighs the same as a witch??
Ninek, many have senses of humor… but many also have been slighted and persecuted because of ignorant statements. Thank you for recognizing the difference. :)
Also, we only weigh the same in Monty Python. :)
Hey Duck, why can’t their be athiest wiccans? After all, some of us believe there can be a good thief!
An athiest wiccan may state that she doesn’t believe in God(s), but if she did ever choose to believe she would choose to believe in wiccanism.
ninek says:
November 21, 2011 at 10:27 am
Scuse me? Your histrionics have reached an all time new level. You’re not even making sense (such as it was) now.
Elderly atheist Wiccans? WTF?
I’ve missed cc because I’ve been so busy, and I’m hurt she hasn’t quoted me on her blog for over a week, :>(
Sorry that you’re hurt; but, pray tell, which blog have I not quoted you on? I wasn’t aware that I had a blog. But please tell me. Hopefully it generates income?
Duck, I’ve actually known athestic Wiccans. They didn’t believe in G/god(s), but rather in “spirits” of varying powers that could be interacted with through the proper rituals. They would have been very offended to have the “spirits” they “interact” with called gods they worship. (I think they were insane but, hey, I’ve known any number of people with bizare self-described beliefs including an Odin worshiper and a person that practiced both Wiccanism and worshiped as a vigin of Hestia, which blatantly contradict each other.) I’ve also know New Age moon worshipers who attend Catholic mass and describe themselves as “Catholic”. If you can string 2 words together, regardless of their apparent contradictions, you can find someone who will swear that is their belief system. In my personal experience they are usually female, but the Odin worshiper was male.
Duck, so glad you got my Monty Python reference!!
cc, really. I’m beginning to think I’m not your favorite pro-lifer. I’m devastated. Lol!!
“I do believe it is necessary for some people to SEE the truth, as they (if they are pro-abortion) may consider the discussion philosophical, legal, theological, or whatever and block out or forget that there are REAL CHILDREN involved in abortion.”
Demonstrated this whole blog by the pro-aborts.
How can it not be a mental illness to SEE the truth and still ignore/deny it? Any sane thinking person could not possibly be faced with this and still argue some inane garbage about “legal” or “culturally acceptable” “personhood membership”. If I could transport you Ducks and Joans, CC’s, etc. back a couple hundred years…. You people would sit and watch a man whipped and lynched and not flinch a muscle or be moved because the “man” was not legally/culturally a “person” and so there was nothing amiss about what had just happened. You would be making these same inane horrifically blind and prejudiced (but so academic and educated!) arguments without shame! But make an arbitrary change like the color of his skin and OH BOY! LOOK! A PERSON!
And this “birth” as a necessary requirement for entrance into being socially/culturally accepted as a “person”??? I guess the women who escaped the viscous genital mutilations of islam in Africa are not “women” but still “children” because they didn’t go through their cultures required “entering into” membership ritual? Many cultures believe a girl becomes a woman when she bears a child or has intercourse. So the ten yr old child who recently gave birth is a “woman” now? A couple yrs ago a monster raped a 2 day infant still in the hospital after being born! She is now a “woman”???? Why can’t you see the huge gaping holes in your logic?? Arbitrary ritual cultural whatever don’t change the facts.
The slaves were persons before the constitution said so, women are persons though Islam says they are not, and pre-born human beings are persons despite what Duck and other mentally deranged narcissists contend. A person’s a person, no matter how small…. or where they live, or how dependent they are, or their color, or race, or gender, etc etc etc….
mentally deranged narcissists
Yup. Anyone who can watch this footage and still think a civilized country should keep abortion legal (and call it healthcare on top of it!) is a MDN.
Keep talking. We’re winning. Vote ’em all out. Stand up to the bullies. Stand up for the truth. Shut ’em down. Now is the time.
Tyler wrote:
People in the Pro-Life movement need to re-take the school system…
Truer words were never spoken! (I’d also suggest, just IMHO, that such people should seriously consider home-schooling until such a reclamation takes place!)
should make it obvious that it’s a matter of normative valuation, not empiricism, and must be approached on those terms.
Umm…no? Because I have a daughter who I was being pressured to consider abortion for, and who is obviously and always has been a “person” (which is really just a synonym for “human being”, as anyone capable of reading a dictionary well knows-let’s be honest here, pro-legal-abortionists). It is an empirical fact that the entity my daughter always has been was never replaced magically at some point in gestation or at birth with an Actual Person™ and is the same organism she’s been since conception. Just because YOU are in denial (or just flat-out delusional) and feel that you have the right to “value” other human beings “normatively” rather than giving them the full consideration and respect they deserve just as well all currently have does not mean you should. Just because you feel the sky is really more of a teal than sky blue does not mean I should re-evaluate my determination of what color the sky is: it means you should probably be checked for colorblindness.
(*sigh*) At least the “likes” button serves to give a semi-accurate Troll Count of the Moment, in the case of Joan’s posts…
Jespren, All Wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are wiccan. The wiccans you described would fall under the pagan umbrella but not wiccan. But, that may be because I actually study the belief systems and doctrines of so many faiths.
TCH,
You took my quotes out of context. I didn’t say birth was a social inclusion of membership, I said it was the biological entrance to membership of the species.
Also, slavery, is wrong. Personally I think genital mutilation is wrong, in all forms, including male circumsicion. I do however, understand the cultural implications of such behavior. That’s the difference between ethnocentrism and cultural awareness. So, to sum it up, don’t put words in my mouth and make assumptions just because of one particular argument I made. You have no idea what I”m for or against (besides my stance on abortion) because you never asked.
You took my quotes out of context. I didn’t say birth was a social inclusion of membership, I said it was the biological entrance to membership of the species.
Then you would be wrong, as anyone in any scientific field of study could tell you that a new organism-a new member of their species-exists from conception.
“biological entrance to membership of the species”
The “species” is homo sapiens and biologically the human zygote, blastocyst, embryo and fetus are all homo sapiens. So birth cannot be the biological entrance to membership of the species.