Sad news: Michelle Duggar loses 20th baby
UPDATE 12/9, 9:15a: Of course, the mockery of both the Duggars and God has begun. JaqobJackson on Twitter has saved a screenshot.
12/8, 5:57p: Sad news today. Michelle Duggar 20th baby, who was due in April, has died en utero – a stillbirth.
The baby was about 5 months old.
From People today:
A day of joyful anticipation has turned to anguish for Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar.
At a routine check-up Thursday to find out the sex of their 20th child, their doctor was unable to find a heartbeat and told the couple they had miscarried in the second trimester.
“After the appointment, we came back home and told the children,” says Michelle, 45.
“We had just been talking about baby names last night and they were getting excited about naming a boy or a girl. It has been a real sad disappointment.”
She says the family will select a name after they know if the baby was a boy or girl, and then plan to have a funeral service.
“I feel like my heart broke telling my children,” says Michelle. “They have all been so excited about this baby and looking forward to April coming around and having a new little one in our arms. That was the most difficult. The Lord is the giver of life and he can choose when that life is ready to go on and be with Him.”
The stars of TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting previously weathered a medical ordeal with their youngest daughter, Josie, who was born in December 2009.
This was their second miscarriage; Michelle lost her baby during her second pregnancy. She was taking oral birth control at the time and cites this as one reason the couple together decided to leave the number of children they have “up to God.”
Please remember to pray for the Duggar family at this tragic time.
[HT: Steven Ertelt on Twitter; photo via People]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
So very sad for them. :(
Praying for the whole family.
This family is so inspirational and such good role models for families. Praying for their family in this time of loss.
My prayers go out to them.
Side note: is miscarry a technical term for this stage of pregnancy? I thought this would be considered a still-birth. I always though miscarry refered to the first trimester. At 5 months (prehaps as many as 20 weeks) this little one was mere weeks from able to live outside the womb with assistance.
My daughter died at birth and people would sometimes inaccurately offer condolences for my “miscarriage” (though she was born alive) – I would bristle at the inaccuracy – hence my desire to be accurate now.
I am exactly the same time frame along in my pregnancy as Michelle was in hers. My heart breaks for their entire family. Many prayers from our family to theirs.
Very sorry for their loss.
Maybe it is time to give her body a break… She is like a baby machine that has spent the last 20+ years pregnant. That’s fine it is their right, but that has to take a serious toll on the human body.
I wonder what does Mr. Duggar do for a living?
Hi Laurie,
I suspect the baby died in utero and stopped developing possibly days or weeks ago and all that was present was an amnionic sac. She may not as yet have actually “miscarried”. Also, fetal development would not be at 20 weeks, but possibly days or weeks earlier. I would suspect that a D&C is likely or she may wait for a natural expulsion.
I understand Michelle thought her first miscarriage was due to the use of birth control. What “causes” a miscarriage is at best anyone’s guess, sometimes the body just say “no” for whatever reason. That may have been the case the first time Michelle miscarried and had nothing to do with the use of birth control.
Also Laurie, my condolences to you on your loss and the Duggars on theirs.
Biggz, isn’t it her right to choose what risks she takes or what she wants to do with her own body?
I am sorry for them, I hope that they will get through this and everything will be ok.
I have seen some horrible comments about them on articles, people saying they deserve it. Disgusting people to say something like that.
:( breaks my heart to hear about this how sad.
Biggz she wasn’t/isn’t a “baby machine” she’s a Christian mother that loves God/her husband/and her kids. God gave them that baby and he can and might give them another. Your comments are stupid and callous and typical with the “very sorry for their loss” while next you cut them down. Who cares what Jim Bob does for a living as long as his family is provided for. (which they are) He doesn’t need the socialist government giving him a handout. He owns property and rents it out for income and has been a state representative. AND btw they are debt free COMPLETELY DEBT FREE. So take your phony empathy elsewhere I can sniff out fake people easily.
Sweet baby. It’s a bittersweet honor to be trusted with such tiny souls for the short time they have here. God give this dear family His peace. I will remember them in my prayers. <><
Biggz,
Not trying to pick a fight but I wanted to point out that having a miscarriage or stillbirth could happen no matter how many times one has had a baby. I miscarried my first (and two more between my subsequent pregnancies). I don’t think it had anything to do with how many kids she’s already had if that’s what you were getting at. Some tried to say that about Josie Duggar’s problems but it’s the same deal – eclampsia could have happened during any pregnancy and had nothing to do with how many kids Mrs. Duggar already had carried.
Hats off to Mrs. Duggar, I couldn’t handle bearing or raising that many kids, myself. She has a special set of gifts for this task in life. So sorry that they have lost their baby. I would be devastated if I were in their shoes. :-(
Mary,
Yes, that indicated that the doctors were unable to find a heartbeat… but she would have been in for a check-up within the prior month (in not weeks) considering the high risk of her age and previous pregnancy. So the baby wouldn’t have died any younger than 16-17 weeks into pregnancy.
I only meant that if the baby had actually been alive until very recently, then at 20 weeks he/she was only a couple weeks younger than a couple children whom I personally know of who survived being born around 23 weeks and are now i grade school.
Based on what I know of the Duggars and their spoken plans for a funeral, I wouldn’t expect a D&C. I have many friends who lost babies in the second trimester and have cherished baby photos from after induced delivery.
I guess I’ll go look up the medical terms.
This is actually her 21st, counting her first miscarried baby with her 19 living children.
O Sovereign Master, Lord our God, Who was born of the all-pure Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and as an infant was laid in a manger: do You Yourself, according to Your great mercy, have regard for this Your servant, Michelle, who has miscarried that which was conceived in her. Heal her suffering, granting to her, O Loving Lord, health and strength of body and soul. Guard her with a shining Angel from every assault of sickness and weakness and all inward torment. You who accept the innocence of infancy in Your Kingdom, comfort the mind of Your servant and bring her peace. Amen.
May Baby Duggar’s memory be eternal. May his or her soul dwell with the blessed. May God comfort the grieving family, and protect them from the evil and shameful comments on the passing of their son/daughter and sister/brother.
Okay, I hate to be an antagonist, I feel really bad for the Duggars right now, but can someone please explain the concept of worshiping a god who kills your unborn children? Wouldn’t that make the god an abortionist itself? I’ve never understood why many religious people try to make sense of their miscarriage by praising their god afterwards. I would be pissed if anyone (or anything) killed my child on purpose and called it ‘justified’. Any insight?
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm
“Miscarriage” is before the 20ths week. “Pre-term birth” is after.
Wow a bit hostile aren’t we…
Jack I said it was their right to have all the kids they want and I am fine with that.
Joselyn I wasn’t being mean in anyway. 19 kids means 171 months of being pregnant plus two miscarriages that I know of. That has to be hard on the human body is what I was saying.
As far as Mr. Duggar I was just wondering how he supports that many kids as I am just trying to put one through college at the moment. I don’t watch the show so I have no idea what he does for a living.
This is the USA and here you can have all the children you want. Reproductive freedom swings both ways.
I am truly sorry for their loss. When my only sister miscarried her first child I spent two weeks of sobbing to help her through it. Things got much better for her after she had twins. My baby machine comment was not a jab at her, it was just stating the facts without any condescension on my part. Just like you might say Michael Jordan is a slam dunk machine because that is how he spent his life and that’s why we know him. Same thing for the Duggars. If she were not a baby machine we wouldn’t even know their names. No disrespect intended.
Hi Laurie,
Its possible the baby died right after her last visit so yes its possible it was weeks.
Also, with death, and I’m trying to be respectful here, its possible that decomposition of the baby began and the size would be considerably smaller than 16 weeks. Again this is speculation as we do not know the details.
The Duggars could still have a D&C and a funeral for whatever fetal remains there are. We see this often in surgery. Waiting for a natural expulsion is an option, but also has its risks.
Or if the baby is developed, an induction would also be an option.
In fact, our city has a cemetary for miscarried babies and we often see women choose this option.
Interesting that this couple attract so much criticism for their reproductive choices – mostly from people who argue a woman’s right to ‘reproductive choice’!
Easy pickings for criticism? Yes. But are they living their dream? YES!
Hats off to the entire Duggar family and especially to them for their strength in this time.
Hi Laurie, 6:43PM
Again, depends on the stage of development. If growth stopped weeks ago, after the last visit, then development would be less than 20 weeks.
Patrick,
Surely you realize that that large a question cannot be adequately addressed within the context of a dialogue. I hope you will continue to consider the matter for all the days you are granted.
God has authority, wisdom, and knowledge (or past, present, and future) that we cannot imagine. His decisions are absolute perfection.
It is deeply painful for any of us whenever someone we love dies. And so we are comforted by reminding ourselves of the greatness of the God who we know has our good in mind.
Yes, I suppose you could apply this same verbage to humans making decisions of whether their unborn children should live or die. But then, they’re not God. This is why it is wrong for those people to make such choices. God is love. People are sinful. “Playing God” is fully harmful; God being God allows for pain, but is true.
Yes, CC, we know, we know. Catholics suck and Jews rock and are proudly pro-choice, and pro-lifers hate born children, and yada yada.
Biggz, sorry if I came off as hostile. I have just had my fill today of people judging and condemning and acting like she deserved what she got. I think it’s particularly ironic coming from the “my body my choice” crowd. Your comment wasn’t bad. I do wish that people would stop speculating about why she miscarried, it seems rude to me.
so very sorry to hear about this. my heart goes out to them. hi mary * waves *
Hi heather,
“waves” back to you. Always good to see you here.
Hi Jack Borsch,
Indeed it is appalling and heartless to speculate why someone miscarries. At best it is anyone’s guess. Our thoughts go out to the Duggars and anyone experiencing a similar tragedy.
I thought I lost my youngest child in a miscarriage and was devastated but the doctor speculates I lost a twin. Again it was only a guess. Thankfully I have a daughter who is a jewel.
John Wesley was born in 1703 in Epworth, 23 miles (37 km) northwest of Lincoln, the fifteenth child of Samuel Wesley and his wife Susanna Wesley (née Annesley). His father was a graduate of the University of Oxford and a Church of England rector. In 1689 Samuel had married Susanna, twenty-fifth child of Dr. Samuel Annesley, a pastor. Wesley’s parents had both become members of the established Church of England early in adulthood. Susanna bore Samuel Wesley nineteen children, but only seven lived. In 1696 Wesley’s father was appointed the rector of Epworth.
Just think … no Susanna (25th child), no John Wesley!
Patrick,
I have miscarried five babies. God did not “kill” any of my children. That implies that He PURPOSEFULLY took their lives. My babies died for “whatever” reason, most likely “chromosomal abnormalities”. Be it mine or my husband’s, or both.
God is STILL God (Capital G), and yes, I still PRAISE HIM for giving me those babies for the weeks I carried them, and for allowing me to be their mother for ETERNITY.
Hi Biggz,
Thank you for offering your comfort to you sister. Miscarriage(or preterm loss, stillbirth)is a loss and women who have them need to be free to grieve the death of their children.
Patrick, on that line of reasoning, why don’t we all just rage away at God that folks die AT ALL? As the author of life, God and only God has the right to determine the length of life.
Yes, “miscarriage” is for babies lost before 20 weeks. After that its considered a stillborn.
I lost a baby right around the same time she did. I was in for my 16 week checkup and got no heartbeat. I was induced a week and a half later and delivered my perfectly formed son into my hands. He was later buried in a plot where my next baby would join him.
My next loss was ay 8 weeks. I delivered at home, a tiny perfectly formed 8 week baby whom I buried with her brother. The only time there is just an “amniotic sac” is when there is a bighted ovum. Any and all other losses have a baby.
I pray she doesnt have a D&C and is able to give birth the way God intended. Poor family. :(
The loss of a baby is a terrible thing that i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy. I do hope though that the duggars take time to reflect on the last two years and realise that they should be focusing on josie, rather than planning on another baby. And for those of you who state ‘oh but they let god decide’, no they dont, they, as human beings, make a conscious effort to do the do, there is always the choice to abstain from intercourse on fertile days, or abstain altogether. If god had anything to do with this at all it would be a message from him to say josie needs her mum, not another sibling.
Josie will be 2 years old and is developmentally right on track.
I hope the Duggars grieve and heal and then do whatever they would like to do in their bedroom.
NYDoula,
With all respect I must disagree. I have seen D&Cs at 16 and 20 weeks because there was a decomposing fetus in an amniotic sac, a fetus that had been dead for weeks.
Before ultrasound, this was a common occurence, when we had only the heartbeat to go by. Even with ultrasound, there may be weeks between visits and a loss may go undetected.
My most sincere condolences to you on the loss of your son and daughter.
I must tell you though that not all miscarried babies are so perfectly formed. Also, a “blighted ovum” is not the only time there is still a sac.
Yes she can have a natural expulsion, hopefully she won’t develop a life threatening infection, as I have seen women do, in the process.
@ mary…likewise. just got a paper in the mail. looks like star parker alveda king hugh hewitt and other rtlifers are coming to indepenence ohio march 9th and 10th. im going!
They took their first miscarriage to be a sign from God to not use birth control. I wonder what they will take this event to mean.
Hi Carla,
The Duggars have shown appallingly bad judgment and disregard for Josie and her special needs, first with the El Salvador incident and now the latest, hauling her off to Israel where she became ill and required a hospital visit. They even let her be filmed wheezing and hacking in the ER. The Duggars took a serious risk with her safety as medical care may not be in other areas of the world what they have come to expect in the United States. She remains a medically fragile child, and the Duggars have yet to figure out they can’t dump her on an older sibling like they can the others, so they can be free to enjoy doing what they like to do in their bedroom.
Yes Mary.
I read all of that info when you typed it the first time.
Hi Lorna 7:21PM
Quite true, the only thing the Duggars let God decide is conception, otherwise they seek human intervention to get Michelle and baby safely to term, as well as to care for a premature child.
As for Josie you are so right. Michelle has been fixated on another pregnancy since Josie’s birth, even stating she feared she couldn’t get pregnant, and has shown appallingly bad judgment where Josie’s special needs are concerned.
Mary, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I didnt say that a D&C cannot be performed at this stage in pregnancy. A D&C can be poerformed at any stage in the pregnancy, but often beyond 16-18 weeks is considered a D&E. My thoughts were that I hope she doesnt have to go that route. It isnt pleasant and isnt in the best interest of the mother’s health, in normal situations. I understand at times it is medically necessary, but if moms health isnt being compromised, its best to allow her to birth and heal and grieve. Having a natural explusion at this late in the pregnancy is unlikely. She will most likely need medical intervention of some kind whether it be a D&C or an induced labor.
Also, I didnt say that a blighted ovum is the only time there is still a sac. All pregnancies have a gestational sac, unless the waters have broken. What I said was it is the only time in pregnancy where there is ONLY a sac, without a baby. You stated above that Michelle may have just had an empty sac, which is just not the case. At this point in pregnancy, her baby would be completely developed. It isnt stated exactly how far along she was, but she was at her gender ultrasound which is typically done between 18-20 weeks, so by that estimation, there is no way she would have had an empty sac…there was a baby with no heartbeat that will be buried after the birth.
So sorry for their loss. I think it would be just as hard emotionally if it was the first or the 20th pregnancy. I have three children, and everytime I found out I was pregnant, I always prayed nothing would happen and I would have a normal healthy baby. I did thank God. I don’t believe God kills babies either, I think it is just something we may never know why it happens. My prayers go out to them and their family. I hope they are able to recover from this quickly and resume their normal life. Peace
Hi Carla,
I am glad you have had the opportunity to read mary’s information twice. Hopefully you will now be able to process it. Because it concerns me greatly that there are a number of women, possibly mothers, who fail to grasp that when a child is born that early, very rarely is it not affected in any way and what it needs after spending so much time in hospital is to be at home with its mother doting on it.
@JJ
If God has a plan for everything, then everything is part of his plan. Nothing happens without, at the least, his allowance.
Patrick,
Many of those of us who worship God don’t expect to live perfect lives for hundreds of years without death or disease. Some people might believe in a god like that, but they’d be pretty disappointed all the time. You see, God sent us his only son, but what did we do? We human beings crucified him, even though he’d only healed people and preached and didn’t perpetrate any harm. God didn’t promise a long and easy life to his son, who died on the cross two thousand years ago. With that in mind, it doesn’t seem out of place that our own children sometimes die before their parents. The Blessed Mother is so far the only parent who was reunited with a living son after he’d been buried for days. The hope we live with is this: the resurrection and the life of the world to come. And we are thankful for the time that we do have here.
Why doesn’t God just keep us healthy for centuries and grant us wishes like a fairy with a wand? I don’t claim to know. But, how can someone think that the complexity of life on this planet was just some random accident? THAT’s a leap of faith I can’t make.
Now, if you know of some culture that believes in an airy-fairy god who never lets anything die, then I suggest you ask those people, if you can find anyone like that.
Hi NYDoula 9:45PM
We seem to have a severe case of crossed wires here.
Concerning D&Cs. I was pointing out that Michelle likely could have one if she chooses, depending on fetal development. She can have one and still properly bury her unborn baby. If the baby is a 20 week developed fetus, induction is an option if she chooses.
Its been my experience the mothers often find the D&C considerably less traumatic.
She can also wait for a natural expulsion though this can carry some risks. I have seen women do this as well, though I think it was more their being in a state of denial than anything else. Also, a natural expulsion may not necessarily produce a recognizable fetus.
I stand corrected. Yes Michelle obviously had a baby but its possible development stopped weeks earlier and there has been decomposition, which would mean little remains but a sac. I should have been specific.
Mary, yes Michelle could have a D&C if she chooses, but she can also be medically induced, even if the baby is much younger than 20 weeks. My baby died around 14 weeks and I delivered him at 17.5 weeks. The decomposition rate doesnt happen as fast as you think it does. The baby is well protected in the amniotic fluid and that slows down decomposition. If she is indeed 20 weeks, her last appointment would have been at most, 4 weeks ago. Her baby would not be decomposed enough to not be able to be born, whole.
I am a pregnancy loss doula (please dont confuse me with an “abortion doula!”), in addition to a birth doula. I’ve worked with many families that have experienced loss. Most mothers I have enountered prefered to be able to birth their babies whole. Those that didnt know their options until after or couldnt for whatever reason, epxressed a lot of grief and anguish out of knowing their baby came out in pieces. I havent worked with many families that felt good about having a D&C. I cant imagine that many mothers, being truly informed of the risks and benefits of a D&C vs an induced labor would choose a D&C, but I know some do. I find that many women who choose to birth their babies whole are able to grieve and heal faster knowing that they offered that gift to their baby and had a chance to see and hold their baby, giving them a chance to make memories. This is why having loss support is so crucial, and why I became a loss doula. Women need to know their options surrounding loss, not just have a baby surgically removed and sent home. This creates a lot of confusion and heartache for them, in my experience.
Well Monica, while Carla processes what I’m sure she already understands, why don’t you try to wrap your head around the fact that having a special needs child doesn’t mean you can’t have another child. What one family might not be able to handle, another might. I hope you and Mary jump down the throats of any woman you see on the street with a special needs child and a younger child (less than….what exactly is the time YOU’ve deemed all mothers must wait? We know 2 years is insufficient. So what is it – 3, 5, 10..18??)
I find it funny that people just KNOW what this family can and can’t handle just b/c they don’t structure their family the way you would.
Biggz,
God designed a woman’s body to conceive, carry, and bear children. Our forefather’s wives had 10-12 children without blinking an eye. It’s not hard on a Woman’s body, in some cases it’s actually very good. Science has proven that women who have children have less chance of certain cancers and stronger bones.
We live in a privileged Aka spoiled society that looks down on people with more than two kids. Not everyone, but some.
Condolences to the Duggar family. God bless.
Also one more thing, a reply to a post above: God doesn’t cause babies to be miscarried anymore than he could cause a plane to crash or a house to catch fire. These things just happen.
Yes, Shannon! “God doesn’t cause babies to be miscarried”
May I note that every woman in the Bible who prayed for a baby and concieved carried to term? Not one miscarried. It isnt God’s desire that we miscarry. This, I believe, is the work of Satan to trick us into blaming God and turning from Him.
There are two notable exceptions to loss in the Bible…
#1 David took Bathsheba in adultery and married her after having her husband killed. It was a punushement that their baby die for his sin. He died at a few days old.
#2 Rachel died in childbirth because her husband Jacob said that whomever had taken the false gods from her father should be struck dead, not knowing it was her who had taken them, and she did.
My heart goes out to the Duggar family for their loss. The parents aren’t the only ones in grief right now….19 other little hearts are grieving for their lost sibling.
It saddens me that anyone would place guilt on a mother for her child’s death, simply because they disagree with their worldview.
CT,
Having a special needs child doesn’t rule out another baby, I personally know people who have. But parents of special needs children will tell you that their lives revolve around the needs of that child, not visa versa.
You don’t leave a medically fragile child with a sibling barely out of her teens while you leave the country then snivel and whine about your helplessness when the child develops a fever and “prolonged” seizure. You don’t haul that medically fragile child to Israel, exposing her to dangerous pathogens and possible inadequate medical care. Maybe you wait a few years until the child is more medically stable and it safer for HER. You also don’t film the child while she is hacking her lungs out in the ER.
Believe it or not I used to defend the Duggars. I’m beginning to see too many red flags.
Mary, she wasn’t hacking her lungs out…she had a minor cold and Michelle stayed behind with her just to be cautious for her health. She was perfectly fine in a few days.
That’s a tough break, for sure. Nonetheless, it presents a good opportunity for Michelle Duggar to step back and, with professional help if necessary, try to take on the underlying pathology that drives her to constantly and intentionally get pregnant. It isn’t healthy for her or her children.
NYDoula,
Over the years I have seen so many exceptions. I have seen fairly rapid decomposition. I have seen where there was no sac anymore, or much of anything. Whatever, we do not know the details of Michelle’s situation so we can only speculate. Perhaps problems were already developing when she had her last exam that went undetected.
The point is I’m not disagreeing with you. Certainly a woman can decide what best suits her. I saw one woman hold out for a natural expulsion until she began showing signs of sepsis and a D&C was necessary. Yes Michelle, or any woman can op for an induction if there is, or isn’t, a recognizable fetus.
There are certainly no set rules and each case is different.
Hi Bethany,
I beg to differ. She ran a fever and had so much congestion a visit to Terem Emergency Medical Center was in order. “We heard Israel has good medical care but just didn’t know what to expect”, said Michelle. Oh really? Shouldn’t you have made it your business Michelle to find out before taking her on this trip?? What if the care wasn’t so good? A week later after supplemental rounds of oxygen Josie was able to fly home, with the doctor along.
Doesn’t sound to me like she was all that fine in a few days.
Maybe Jill can confirm or clarify for me, but from my days working on a labor & delivery unit, a baby of this gestational age who died was called a fetal demise. Not stillborn. Jill?
Regardless, I am saddened for the Duggars. They know how precious life is so this surely is devastating to them. All of us who have lost a baby in miscarriage know that it’s heartbreaking and often a silent, hidden grief, because society has no idea how to deal with it honestly. Especially when your miscarriage happens in the very early weeks, and you’re left to regard what you lost as merely unseen cells, now lost in a “heavy period.” Nothing to hold or see or bury or name, and no one but you even considers that you lost a CHILD.
Mary, I think Jim bob and Michelle were probably being extra cautious taking Josie to the ER, knowing that Josie was born a preemie and I think I would do the same thing at the first sign of any sickness, however small, if I was in another country, just to be on the safe side. I think they were being good parents.
And the doctor didn’t come along when they went back home. That was one option if they wanted to go home immediately. Michelle and Jill chose to stay with Josie and let her get through the fever.
Hi Bethany,
I stand corrected, she was sick and crying. The doctor also informed the family the infection might take weeks to resolve. Thankfully it didn’t.
But what if it had? Was there adequate medical care for Josie in Israel? Apparently Michelle and Jim Bob hadn’t gone to the trouble to find out.
From what I read on a blog friendly to the Duggars, a doctor did accompany them home.
Josie was not in critical condition. Her parents took her to the doctor and did everything they should have to provide her with the care she needed. They have 19 happy, healthy children. I think they know what they’re doing.
Hi Bethany,
Please refer to my 9:11 post. This was a more serious situation than what you seem to think it was.
Michelle and Jim Bob were given the option to take the doctor if they wanted to. It was not a necessity. If they did actually take a doctor along it would have been because they were wanting to be extra careful. Did you watch the episode?
Bethany,
For heaven’s sake they took her to the ER because she had a fever and congestion. She spent days on supplement oxygen. The doctor feared the infection might take weeks to resolve. This was a seriously ill child Bethany. Michelle wasn’t certain what to expect for medical care. Shouldn’t the parents of a child like Josie make it their business to know??
Their 18 other children were not micro preemies who are medically fragile and have made emergency trips back to the hospital more than once. Big difference Bethany.
Oh my…
Please allow me to address a few people,
First, Biggz, please don’t say “baby making machine” about ANY woman. It sounds so sexist. Because she chooses to birth 19 children, that makes her a machine that makes babies? I am pregnant with my second and would like more. Am I also a machine? It is dehumanizing to women. Because we choose to allow our bodies to do what they’re designed to do.. get pregnant and birth children, that makes us machines? Could I call men ejaculate making machines? I mean… really!
Joan, why is it that you applaud women who hop into bed with man after man and yet a woman who stays faithful to one man but chooses to have a lot of children needs professional help and has a pathology? You’re very disconcerting in the awful things you say.
To all those who think having so many children caused her miscarriage, I would point out that her daughter-in-law Anna also had a miscarriage last year and she had only had one baby at that point.
Patrick, Regina already answered and answered so well, but please let me say that God is the giver of life. So He has every right to take human life whenever He sees fit. You cannot begrudge Him for taking what it is that He gave in the first place. All humans die. Some die at 2 weeks, some at 2 years, some at 99 years but we all die. We all have given amount of time determined by God. That we cannot know that time does not mean God is unjust or a killer. He sees a bigger picture that we with our limited, finite minds cannot.
Praying for the Duggars. I am 6 months now. Only last month I had my 5 month scan. I cannot imagine going in, expecting to see your baby kicking and expecting to find out the gender only to hear the awful news that your baby has died. And then to deal with all the awful people out there actually rejoicing over this loss. People are sick…sick, sick, sick. I am amazed the Duggars stay so gracious in the face of so much evil and hate.
Hi Bethany,
If this was such a minor problem, why was a doctor even considered?
Mary, Because Jim Bob and Michelle are very, very cautious and caring about their baby and do whatever it takes to make sure she is healthy. They are aware that she was a preemie. They always make a point to ask doctors about what is okay and not okay before they make any decisions about what to do with Josie. They always follow their doctor’s advice! The fact that you assume that they just decided to go to Israel without planning in advance what they would do if she got sick makes me think you are just speculating.
Hi Monica,
Perhaps you should write a letter to Michelle Duggar and offer your advice to her.
“Joan, why is it that you applaud women who hop into bed with man after man and yet a woman who stays faithful to one man but chooses to have a lot of children needs professional help and has a pathology?”
Where and when have I applauded that? Show me.
i knew you’d say that Joan. Eons ago, on this site, you have indeed applauded women’s “sexual freedom” and promiscuity and that abortion and birth control should be available so women can continue to do this. There is no way I could give you date, time or direct quote. I just remember you going round and round with others on this and very much pro-casual sex.
Hi Bethany,
Michelle admits she didn’t know what to expect for medical care in Israel. I didn’t speculate it. Shouldn’t she and Jim Bob have made it a top concern before taking this trip?
If a doctor gave his blessing for Josie to be left in the care of an older sibling while JB and Michelle went to El Salvador and for her to take a trip to Israel then his/her judgment is as bad as the Duggars. Both times Josie became seriously ill.
Yes Josie could have developed a fever and seizure while her parents were home and not in El Salvador. The point is she is their child and their responsiblity, not Jill’s. Perhaps Jill, not much more than a kid herself didn’t recognize how seriously ill her sister was or the onset of the sickness so rapid Jill was caught off guard. Whatever, that is why a child like Josie needs parental vigilance, not a babysitter.
As for Israel is there any reason the Duggars couldn’t have waited a few more years until Josie is older, just as an extra precaution? I’m sure Israel and the Holy Land would still be there.
Sorry Bethany, as much as I like and respect you I cannot agree with you that the Duggars have exercised the necessary good judgment and vigilance needed for a child like Josie.
I do not understand…Why was it neglectful to take Josie to Israel? Israel is a first world, modern country; their health care is just as good as Europe or the US.
“There is no way I could give you date, time or direct quote.”
Of course you couldn’t, because I have never once said anything to the effect of endorsing sexual promiscuity as a good or desirable activity, or justifying birth control and abortion on the basis that it enables casual or irresponsible sex. It’s possible and even likely that I have, in the past, specifically defended sexual freedom, in the abstract, but the difference between that and applauding sexually irresponsible behavior is analogous to the difference between defending the principle of free speech and endorsing hateful or abusive language. Any minimally intelligent person should intuitively understand that difference.
Hi Adair,
Being a micropreemie who has already made a few emergency returns to the hospital, Josie is more prone to infection and other medical issues. International travel and exposure to crowds and pathogens are a greater risk for a child like her. This little girl was until recently on supplemental oxygen. Also remember she spent several months in the NICU and was rush back to the hospital after her discharge in serious and unstable condition. She also developed a fever and seizure while her parents were in El Salvador. I hear this seizure was “prolonged’ but don’t know exactly what that entailed.
She has done remarkably well but still requires parental vigilance.
Michelle admits she didn’t know what to expect for health care in Israel. Shouldn’t she have made it her business to find out?
I’m sorry to say I’m not at all surprised she became ill. International travel, exposure to infection, disruption of her normal routine. Certainly this is a trip that could have waited until Josie was older and had been medically stable for a longer period of time.
Thankfully her illness did not last as long as the doctor was concerned that it would.
Mary, unless you know the Duggars personally, can you honestly make an educated and fully informed judgement on whether or not they have been good parents to Josie? She did get ill, as do many children. She has been cared for medically, physically and emotionally. Perhaps not in a way that you would agree to but that is not your decision. I think the point is that Josie is a thriving child who was premature. She became ill, it was taken care of in a way that Josie survived with no permanent damage. It sounds as though she was left in hands that were quite capable and even though it was frightening, all is well with Josie Duggar. What more do you want?
But probably more importantly, you are not Josie’s mom and your criticism during such a fragile and emotionally devastating event is irrelevant and not productive for this family.
Okay I’ll take it back Joan. So are you saying that casual sex is a bad thing and shows a mental or emotional disorder? You agree that people that engage in casual sex are trying to fulfill a need (other than sexual) and engaging in very risky, unhealthy behavior?
Helen,
Well, unless you personally know the Duggars you can’t any more say for certain they are good parents to Josie, can you?
I’ve made it plain that my opinion is that they exercised bad judgment on those two occasions, not that they are bad parents. Children get ill, but you don’t expose high risk children to situations that can be avoided, like international travel. You also don’t leave a child like this in the care of a sibling barely out of her teens and leave the country. That’s my opinion and you can take it or leave it. Sorry I’m not of the mentality that criticism of the Duggars is tantamount to blasphemy.
In my earlier post I expressed my condolences to the Duggars on their loss. The conversation drifted this way. I am in no way of the mentality Michelle deserved or asked for this, its a family tragedy.
Mary,
I would say that the signs lead more toward good parents than bad … their 19 children do all have decent clothes, dental care (yea, that was one of the episodes but they probably just had that one for our benefit!) So … You’re right NO PROOF that they are good parents …
I have noticed that you are quite plain in your opinion … so obviously, you must be correct.
Just as a recap:
Duggars: irresponsible (and ill informed on caring for a premature baby) can’t have subsequent children due to a child with special needs.
Duggar girl: incompetent and too young to be a good caregiver despite her age and experience
Did I get it right?
Most people don’t have this figured out so well, but the Duggars do.
God decides.
Prayers for them, so they can keep on doing their own thing.
I think she is to old to have babies- she is 45 after all…
The cut off to have kids is usually 42. i doubt she will get prego again after this one…
I know she would of loved to round it off at 20!
Helen,
The signs lead more toward the fact that you only see of the family what they want you to, just as we only know of people’s marriages and family lives what they want us to know.
When we don’t live in a household, marriage, or relationship, we can only make assumptions.
You’ve never been shocked to find out a “devoted” couple was divorcing or what was really going on at someone’s home?
As I said Helen, you like I don’t live with the family so you like I can only draw conclusions.
I think I’m correct yes. You are certainly free to disagree with me as I do with you.
Just a recap: The Duggars, IMO, have been irresponsible where Josie’s special needs are concerned. Having another baby poses a serious risk to Michelle’s health and safety and puts another child at risk for premature birth. Due a little internet research on that Helen. When Josie was a criticially ill newborn, Michelle was standing over her incubator fantasizing about another pregnancy. Don’t you think she would be far more focused on Josie’s needs and not thinking about a pregnancy?
The Duggar girl certainly isn’t incompetent, she’s had parental responsibilites foisted on her since childhood. But little Josie is the child of JB and Michelle, not Jill. She is a high risk infant and whether its convenient for JB and Michelle or not, she is THEIR responsiblity. This is not a child you foist off on an older sibling while you leave the country. That situation must have been terrifying for Jill. Did it get to the point of seizuring because Jill didn’t recognize how seriously ill her sister was or didn’t realize how quickly her sister could turn ill? Maybe JB and Michelle should figure out that their lives must revolve around Josie’s needs. Also, notice Josie was the only one to get ill on the Israel trip. Wonder why??
Did you get it right? Not really.
( dugger debate aside a minute )…Bethany i just cannot believe you had a little girl after ian!!!!!! congratulations!!!!! i had my son april 20 of 2010 and came back. i hadnt seen you and i saw baby grace! i am so happy for you and your family;) oh i should say i clicked on your site. anyway god is so good and i am so happy god has blessed you!
Hi Bethany,
I join heather in congragulating you and your family. What wonderful news. My best to you and yours.
Thank yo so much, Heather and Mary! She is such a blessing… I found out I was pregnant with her during a very difficult trial in my life, and I know she was a gift from God because she brought me so much comfort during that time. I know God has a special plan and purpose for her life.
Heather, I remember your son and mine were born almost at the same time- he was also born in April 2010. How has yours been doing? Hope you and yours are doing well!
Mary, I really do hate being on the opposite side of this issue as you, because usually we are in agreement. But I really think you are wrong about the Duggar family and I hope that maybe I or someone else can eventually convince you of that…
You said that Michelle was fantasizing about another pregnancy while she was taking care of Josie…I don’t know what you base that on, but I assume you may have read something she said while being interviewed and someone asked her if she would ever consider another baby, and she replied with the same response (since her beliefs have not changed), “Yes, we would always gratefully accept another child”. This doesn’t mean she was fantasizing about having another child…it means that she was just being honest that her worldview had not changed based on having a premature baby. She believes her children are gifts from God. That hasn’t changed because of difficult circumstances.
As for whether she spent time devoted to only Josie, if you’ll read their book you’ll find that she did just that. She lived apart from Jim Bob and her other children for several months while she stayed with Josie alone. She spent several hours per day pumping milk for Josie, when Josie was unable to nurse, in preparation for later. She actually filled a deep freeze with the milk she spent time pumping for her! She spent all day and all night taking care of Josie….when she was in the hospital and when she was able to move her to the Cornish house and take care of her by herself. She constantly worried about josie, spent time thinking about Josie, decided that life would have to be all about Josie until she was able to be around other children again. I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been for her to be separated from her family all of that time. I imagine she shed a lot of tears in that time, wanting to be with Josie and care for her, but also missing her husband and other 18 children.
If she really was only concerned with another pregnancy, she could have left Josie in care of the nicu and spent her time with Jim Bob trying to have another one. But that obviously was not her concern! By the way, do you know that she and Jim Bob practice abstinence for a few months after having each child? Just something to think about.
By the way, it is easy to make assumptions about people we don’t know. I could easily make bad assumptions about you, based on things you’ve written about here. For example, you have written about your daughter, and said she has some kind of disorder that causes her to lie about you and tell people that you’ve mistreated her and done all kinds of terrible things to her. If I wanted to, I could come to the conclusion that she would not ever say those things unless she had something to base it on. I could claim that you must really be a terrible mother who has abused her daughter. After all, what reason would she have to go to such extremes to make you look bad unless it was true?
Do you see how hurtful that would be? I am not saying I have that position- and I do NOT think you were a bad mother. I am simply trying to help you see how it is easy to come to a wrong assumption about someone you don’t know. Don’t jump to conclusions about people so easily.
And Michelle wouldn’t let any of her children even be in the same room as Josie for a few months after she moved in to their home again. She kept her separated from the rest of the family to protect Josie from any kind of infections.
I think it’s really strange that so many people say that Michelle should take the premature delivery as a sign that she is not supposed to have any more children. How does that logic hold up when someone has a first child who is premature? We wouldn’t discourage them from having a second for that reason alone. That is faulty logic. Her baby wasn’t premature because she had too many pregnancies.
The miscarriage also did not happen as a result of her having too many children. There are so many people who miscarry their FIRST child. Michelle has managed to have 18 pregnancies carried to term and only 2 miscarriages and one preterm labor….that is actually really good in comparison to most people with larger families. I’ve even had two miscarriages, and I’ve only got 5 children. Casting judgement on her is pointlessly cruel, when she is going through the grief of losing a baby who is almost as old as Josie was when she was born. They lost a little person, and all people can say is , “Well, she did it to herself!” No, she didn’t do it to herself. She lost a baby and deserves to be comforted, not scorned.
To the person who wrote “God doesn’t cause babies to be miscarried anymore than he could cause a plane to crash or a house to catch fire. These things just happen. ”
Please see this “God is the giver of life. So He has every right to take human life whenever He sees fit. You cannot begrudge Him for taking what it is that He gave in the first place. All humans die. Some die at 2 weeks, some at 2 years, some at 99 years but we all die. We all have given amount of time determined by God. That we cannot know that time does not mean God is unjust or a killer. He sees a bigger picture that we with our limited, finite minds cannot. ”
Nothing happens in the world without God’s doing or allowance.
By the way, here is an interesting fact. The uterus is a muscle, which, like other muscles, becomes stronger as it is used more. More pregnancies actually strengthen the uterus, and do not weaken it (as so many seem to assume).
Michelle had 11 VBACs in a row…and then she had another c section, and 2 more VBACs after that. Her doctor has said her uterus is in surprisingly excellent condition.
Yes, in my haste to get the post up, I just basically went by People’s headline without thinking. So I didn’t get the terminology right and will change it.
Babies born or delivered dead before 20 weeks are classified as miscarriages or spontaneous abortions. If a deceased baby that young must be removed, it is usually by suction, D&C, or induced labor (Misoprostol), depending on the age. (Those same procedures are considered elective abortions if the baby’s heart is beating when they are started.)
Babies born or delivered dead from 20 weeks on are called stillbirths or IUFDs, Intrauterine Fetal Demise.
I agree Michelle should try to wait to see if nature delivers her baby. Otherwise I expect she’ll be given Misoprostol (Cytotec) vaginally to nudge things along. Misoprostol irritates the cervix to open. With Michelle’s delivery history, I don’t think her cervix will require much nudging.
Now I’m having trouble coming up with a proper headline. I want to write, “Sad news: Michelle Duggar loses 20th baby,” but I’m worried people may think she misplaced the baby? Am I thinking too much?
I think that sounds good, Jill.
So wonderful to see you back here, Bethany!!
Your title sounds fine Jill. People will know what you mean.
TRUST WOMEN!!
Except Michelle Duggar!!
Ok, with approval from Carla and Bethany I can’t go wrong!
This is her 21st baby, not 20th. This would have been her 20th living child. The Duggars have 19 kids on earth and 2 in heaven.
Enough is enough lady, it’s a vagina not a clown car!
Seriously, isn’t this family at all concerned with an already overpopulated world with resources already in demand? They’ve taken “go forth and multiply” way to far!
Hey!
I think you stole that line from Amanda Marcotte!! Go you.
Her body, her choice and all that jazz………..
Overpopulation is a myth. But, I’m not surprised you’d be gullible enough to fall for it considering you can’t even come up with your own tasteless attempts at insulting Mrs. Duggar. I may not agree with what they are doing on certain grounds (that are personal that I don’t really want to get into), but that’s no reason to attempt a personal insult.
“Overpopulation is a myth”
Really? How’s that? So former CIA Director Hayden was wrong when he issued a report stating that ”The population surge could undermine the stability of some of the world’s most fragile states, especially in Africa, while in the West, governments will be forced to grapple with ever larger immigrant communities and deepening divisions over ethnicity and race.”
The mainstream scientific community that you folks so revere has numerous reports on overpopulation and its dangers relating to food, security, and health. It’s not a coincidence that the most prosperous countries and those with the best health, education, and infrastructure have their population in check due to access to contraception and abortion. The poorest countries are the most populated, in part a result of the policies of the Catholic church which opposes any attempt to curb the population.
Do you seriously believe that poor third world women should be having large families from the time they are teens?
BTW, my comment about the Duggars didn’t get published. I said that I had read that they have an income tax break because they have registered their home as a church.
I’m going to join the request that Biggz never call a woman a “baby machine” again. It colors the rest of the post and is the reason that you were perceived to be disparaging Michelle. I am very willing to believe that you did not mean it that way, but use of the above phrase tends to make it appears as if you were in a disparaging mode when you wrote the comment.
JackBorsch, what does being Jewish have to do with anything? Also, not all Jews are pro-choice. Many, if not most, are not. Just as there are “pro-choice Christians” which I think is an oxymoron, there are “pro-choice Jews”, which I ALSO think is an oxymoron, as Jews and Christians share the scriptures which state that God is the creator of life and that He knits us together in our mother’s wombs. And, btw, I’m Jewish and was concerned about why you would choose to make that statement. (I’m Messianic Jewish.)
Mary, I’m sorry, I’ve been busy with other things and not able to spend time on the site, so I have forgotten what you medical specialty is? Mine is pediatrics and NICU, I’m a Certified Pediatric Nurse and work in both areas. It used to be considered important to keep preemies away from other people. (I was one, my mother didn’t take me out of the house until I was a year old.) It’s not necessarily the way things are still done. Would I have made the choices Michelle and JimBob made? Having not been in their shoes, not having the access to the information that they had at the time, I have no idea. It does seem, however, that they were very careful to get the child adequate medical care and really, that’s all any parent can do.
On the topic of women’s bodies “wearing out”… yes, as noted above, the uterus is a muscle. Weakness of the pelvic floor and the resulting issues such as prolapse is not, strictly speaking, related to the number of children one has. If you have one child and suffer some sort of trauma in that birth OR if you are too lazy to do (or don’t know about) kegel exercises you can have these problems. If you have multiple children and DO your kegel exercises you can avoid these problems. After 16 pregnancies (with 7 living children) my OB informs me that a medical exam shows that yes, I have had a child, but that there is nothing to indicate that I have had multiple children… why? Because I faithfully do my kegels.
There are benefits to allowing the female body to function in its normal way (having children)…. the true fact is that women are not meant to have nearly as many menstrual cycles as they have these days! Having children reduces your risks of breast, uterine, and cervical cancers, especially if you breastfeed those children. It can lower your risk of anemia due to not having 12-13 menstrual cycles per year for 30 or more years.
And yes, you can have a miscarriage at ANY point and it doesn’t have anything to do with how many pregnancies you have had. 1/4 of ALL pregnancies end in miscarriage. I have congenital hypothyroidism which causes me to have a great difficulty getting safely to the 12 week mark. I have been blessed to never lose a child after that time, however, and my heart aches for the pain the Duggar family must be experiencing. My own history is 1) loss; 2) Alison; 3) loss; 4) Joseph; 5) Jonathan; 6) Amber; 7) loss; 8) Amanda; 9) Arielle; 10) loss; 11) loss; 12) loss; 13) Patrickl; 14) loss; 15)loss; 16) loss
There is no myth about overpopulation. It’s a fact. The earth can only sustain so many human beings, period.
The 3 greatest threats to humanity and the environment:
Greed
Apathy
Overpopulation… The Duggars are doing their part in respects to over population.
3rd world countries where women are having babies from the age of puberty is due to lack of education, cultural and tribal customs, and need. Many of the children there die due to lack of medicines, food, shelter and proper care. People in the civilized world do not need to have dozens of children. There is no call for it anymore. think if each one of the Duggar children were to have half as many as their parents, and those children were to have half as many as their parents. That would yield 855 people just from these 2 individuals choice of mass procreation. Tell me that’s not overpopulating and taxing resources?
Face it people, there is a finite amount of resources to go around. There is only so much grass to graze cattle, there are only so many acres of ground to grow wheat for bread, there is only so much fossil fuel available to heat your homes, power your cars and generate electricity to power your electronics, and most importantly there is a limited amount of fresh water.
Overpopulation isn’t a myth, it’s a truth.
Elisabeth, I was teasing another commenter who repeatedly talks about how pro-choice Jews are, I am well aware there are plenty of pro-life Jews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZVOU5bfHrM
“Also, not all Jews are pro-choice. Many, if not most, are not”
Polling data consistently shows that a strong majority of American Jews are pro-choice. Pro-choice Jews are not only well represented on Planned Parenthood BOD’s but they make up a large percentage of pro-choice advocacy groups. Orthodox Jews are not pro-choice. But many Conservative Jews are and the bulk of Reformed Jews are pro-choice. The official position of Reformed rabbis is that abortion must remain legal.
This Pew Poll shows that 86% of Jews are pro-choice.
“And, btw, I’m Jewish and was concerned about why you would choose to make that statement. (I’m Messianic Jewish.)”
Elizabeth, are you also an ethnic Jew? Reason I’m asking is because “Messianic Judaism” is a religious movement that arose in the 60’s. It combines Judaism and Christianity and is not recognized by mainstream Judaism as a Jewish group.
I love this family – one of the few “reality” shows I enjoy watching. They just seem soooooo sweet, completely devoted to God and each other as a family, and just….gosh, I am really sorry for their loss. I know they will get through it and lean on each other for love and support <3
Infidel4life,
I have yet to see all of you overpopulation fear mongers do the earth a favor and off yourselves.
lol, right Carla!
To quote my favorite book series-turned-movie:
“You lack the courage of your convictions, sir. Do it!”
lmao!
Overpopulation is a myth. We produce enough nutritous food to feed many more people than are even alive, but political corruption and other human factors prevent many people from obtaining the food already produced on this planet. I will personally never forget how our Band Aid and Live Aid food rotted on the trucks many years ago.
Funny how population extremists only want OTHER people to stop reproducing, but they just keep eating and breathing and driving and…
Funny too, how if you are pro-life and dare say anything that even remotely could be construed as critical to a woman, the pro-choicers jump all over you… meanwhile they use phrases like “machine” and “clown car.” Hypocritical much?!
Hi Bethany 8:28am
Normally we are not on the opposite side of things! Always good to see you here Bethany, I’ve always been very fond of you and hope all is well with you and yours.
Michelle fantasizing about another pregnancy? Bethany, I heard her on TV. She was standing over Josie’s incubator and said that yes, she may be pregnant again. I about dropped my jaw. Now if this was a real possiblity or a fantasy, I can’t be sure, but the her eerie detached demeanor was unsettling. Uh, how about your baby Michelle? Her future at this point is at best uncertain. What about your other children? What about your personal safety? You are at risk for another bout of pre-eclampsia.
I have also been disturbed by the way in which another pregnancy has been treated like she’s a daredevil ready to announce the next death defying stunt. From my perspective this woman has been focused on one thing only, another pregnancy, and I find that in iteself, well, odd.
She will accept the children God sends her? Apparently she doesn’t trust God to do much else, like get her to term safely. I think this justifies her physical and emotional need to be pregnant. A need so strong that she is ready to risk her health and life again, as well as that of an unborn child.
Yes she cared for Josie, isolated herself from her husband and children, had to protect Josie from infection, etc. So who better than her to understand why a child like Josie is still in need of parental vigilance and common sense protection from infection? Is this a child that should be left alone with an older sibling while mom and dad leave the country?
Is this a child who should go on an international journey? Would waiting a few more years be wise?
I see too many red flags here Bethany and I know that offends a lot of people who equate criticism of the Duggars with blasphemy.
I am bothered by the fact her daughters are nannies and household help. Do these kids ever leave the compound, minus the family unit, and just socialize with the outside world? I’ve heard these girls talk of wanting careers in nursing and beauty work. Instead I see them hauling around kids and tending the home. They’re always smiling and happy?
What would happen if they admitted they weren’t? Do they have much in the way of options?
The so called buddy system which is just Michelle dumping the younger children onto older siblings so that she is free to enjoy the new baby. Children helping around the house is one thing, having parental responsiblities foisted on them so that mom is freed up to do what she most enjoys, is quite another. Frankly Michelle makes me think of the queen bee who produces the worker bees that tend to the hive and the young.
Michelle willing to “risk another premature delivery”. Well isn’t that big of her. Any thought on her part as to what that child might endure? Any thought to the hardship this could again place on her husband and children? Did we see Josie endure needles, surgery, tubes inserted into her trachea and down her nose to her stomach? I saw that done to her on TV. She was too weak and critically ill to cry or fight.
The El Salvador and Israel incidents clinched it for me. Sure didn’t take Michelle long to dump Josie on an older sibling so she could go on a mission. What in El Salvador was more important than Josie? Couldn’t at least one parent stay home. None of the children except Josie became ill in Israel. Wonder why. Perhaps Josie should not have made this trip?
Bethany I once knew a surgeon who was very well loved and respected, outstanding at what he did and consciencious about his patients to a fault. However, despite having a wife and children who needed him, several heart attacks, and open heart surgery this man was focused on one thing: his next cigarette. I see Michelle the same way. Despite having a husband and children who need her, the hardship another premature birth could put on her family, Josie’s possible future special needs, the risk to her own safety and that of an unborn child’s, she is focused on one thing: another pregnancy. I am convinced Michelle is as addicted to pregnancy and birth as that doctor was to his cigarettes.
And addiction, whatever form it takes, can have dire consequences for both the addicted person and their family.
Its almost cult like. The children’s lives inside and outside the compound controlled, the children schooled and churched on the compound. The constant smiles and “joy”. I wonder if Jill will ever realize her dream to be a nurse, or should I say permitted to realize her dream.
Sorry Bethany, but that’s how I perceive this whole situation. Too much just doesn’t look right.
Hi Elisabeth,
I didn’t say Josie needed to be kept from other people, though Bethany points out in her post this was done for a period of time with Josie and Michelle continued to be careful as to what she exposed her to once she returned home. I pointed out that taking a child like Josie on an international trip showed bad judgment and you don’t disagree with me, only say you won’t second guess their judgment call.
Also, Michelle heard there was good health care in Israel but didn’t know what to expect. Don’t you agree she should have made it her business to know exactly what to expect?
The point is Josie became ill and the others didn’t. Sick enough to require a hospital visit and prolonged stay in Israel. Sick enough for the pediatrician to be concerned as to how long she would be ill. Sick enough that a doctor travelled home with the family.
Then there was the incident of Josie developing a fever, dehydration, and seizuring while mom and dad were in El Salvador and Josie was left with a sibling barely out of her teens. Their snivelling about their helplessness while Jill rocked her very ill sister set my teeth on edge. You can see the video for yourself by googling “josie duggar seizure”.
You might find this article interesting, Mary:
http://bangordailynews.com/2011/12/04/living/winterport-siblings-recall-the-blessings-of-being-among-17-children/
I get it, Mary. You think the Duggar family is a cult and you think that anyone who defends them is a cult follower.
You have made countless speculations that are based on nothing but your feelings.
In one breath, you say you aren’t trying to claim they are bad parents, but then in another breath you talk about all the “red flags” you see everywhere, and how oppressed the children are, and how you think Michelle has an unhealthy fixation with being pregnant, and that they do not care about their premature daughter, or implying that they deserve to have a miscarriage or should have had one by now. It sounds to me like you do want to paint the picture that they are extremely bad, even dangerous parents.
I’m sorry if I sound a little angry in the previous post. I admit I did get a little worked up.
Hi Bethany,
For heaven’s sake I didn’t say they were a cult and that people who defend them are cult followers. I said I see behavior that is cult like and I said what it specifically was. I used to defend them myself and I hardly consider myself a cult follower.
Also, thank you for the article. However my issue has never been with large families, in fact growing up I envied them, especially friends who had younger siblings. I know my great grandmother’s very large family endured great hardship with the children being farmed out to foster care, where they were little more than indentured servants.
Happy and very unhappy family lives come in all sizes.
Yes I see red flags Bethany, however much that may upset you. You’ve never looked at “ideal” marriages and families and had your doubts? Your red flags? Something that just doesn’t sit right with you?
Yes I am convinced Michelle has a pregnancy/birth addiction. Like the doctor I mentioned an addiction does not make one a bad person. He was an outstanding person, but the cigarettes controlled him. Michelle is a very decent woman but the need to be pregnant controls her. I have given you my reasons why I think she is such an addict. You are free to agree or disagree.
I see the children as living very controlled and confined lives, absolutely. I see the daughters treated as housemaids and nannies. I have a problem with young children having younger siblings dumped on them to care for to make life easier for mom.
As I asked before Bethany, do these children have options? Can they express any kind of dissatisfaction? Is Jill attending school full time for nursing? I can’t remember which one wanted to be a beautician. Is there a daughter attending beauty school? Some things to think about. Do these girls have choices as to whether they are nannies or instead would rather attend college or have a career? How about if they can date or have a social life that isn’t controlled by their parents?
Concerning Josie, given what you know of her history, did you consider the El Salvador and Israel trips examples of good judgment and consideration for Josie’s needs? Certainly one parent could have stayed home from El Salvador and a trip to Israel could have been delayed a few years. As I told Elisabeth, that video of Michelle and Jim snivelling about their helplessness as Jill rocked her very ill sister set my teeth on edge.
I’m implying they deserved a miscarriage or should have had one by now? I challenge you to directly quote me saying or even quoting what you think is me implying such a thing. I can understand and accept your anger at me Bethany but that is going too far.
I do not consider them bad or dangerous people. But I don’t consider them saints that are above reproach either.
Hi Bethany 6:55PM
Not a problem.
Jack, thanks for the clarification. I didn’t see the original post you were replying to.
Yes, I am ethnically Jewish. I use the term Messianic Jewish because it’s easier than saying, “I am a Jewish person who happens to be waiting for Messiah to return rather than waiting for Messiah to come.” I was born Jewish, I believe in Jesus as Messiah. This does not make me no longer Jewish. I feel no need to prove that I am either Jewish enough or Christian enough. When I really feel like being a snot, I just tell people I am a follower of “The Way”, which is how the earliest Christians (who were initially almost all Jewish) referred to it. The term Christian came later.
As for stats about American Jews… I didn’t say AMERICAN Jews. I’m not nearly so USA-centric as to think that American Jews are the only ones that matter. I spent a great deal of time in Europe when I was growing up, including Eastern Bloc Europe before the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Patrick Ptomey: Okay, I hate to be an antagonist, I feel really bad for the Duggars right now, but can someone please explain the concept of worshiping a god who kills your unborn children? Wouldn’t that make the god an abortionist itself? I’ve never understood why many religious people try to make sense of their miscarriage by praising their god afterwards. I would be pissed if anyone (or anything) killed my child on purpose and called it ‘justified’. Any insight?
Such is the nature of unprovable belief. Those who have it are often going to get caught up in it.
Hi Elisabeth 7:42PM
What an interesting background!
Bethany: I think it’s really strange that so many people say that Michelle should take the premature delivery as a sign that she is not supposed to have any more children. How does that logic hold up when someone has a first child who is premature?
I agree, Bethany – on the face of it, I’d say it’s them putting their own take on things and projecting it onto the Duggars. And hey – if the Duggars want another kid, nothing is stopping them, right…?
Xalisae: Overpopulation is a myth.
Well, yeah – from the standpoint of never accepting anything as proof of too many people, but in any number of real-world examples and viewpoints the earth is already overpopulated. It just depends on what you’re looking at.
Hi Doug 7:54PM
I also agree. So what does it mean when people who aren’t fit to raise children produce healthy full term babies? That they should keep having them?
Mary,
I understand your concerns about the Duggars. Really, I do. But the children are not abused, they are fed, they are clothed, they get medical care, they are treated well. Not everyone is going to structure their families in a way that you or I may agree with. I personally think that the Duggar-enthusiasm gets a little nuts sometimes, I think it’s weird to praise people just for having a bunch of children, but my personal opinion shouldn’t dictate how other people live their lives. It seems that a lot of your energy that is spent criticizing the Duggars might be more helpful targeting a family where the children are being damaged or abused in some way. I can see that you really care about children and the way that they are cared for, but it seems that you might do more good worrying about abused or neglected children, rather than an unorthodox family structure that you disagree with.
Hi JackBorsch,
How do you know the children are not abused? I don’t know that they are. Neither of us lives in the household, right?
Sorry JackBorsch but I tell it like I see it and it POs a lot of people, who maybe should be taking a second look.
None of live there, true. But generally abusive families are characterized by a lot more secrecy and other signs than what I have seen from the Duggars. I personally don’t agree with how they raise their children, but I have not seen signs that these children are being neglected or abused.
I am not pissed off, I think you have made some great points. It just seems odd to me that you are so fixated on it. I also think it’s a bit rude to go off on their parenting styles right after they have suffered a tragic loss.
Hi JackBorsch,
I think of the videos of the sick little girl and they anger me. However, I stand corrected.
In an earlier post I expressed my condolences to the family and outrage that anyone would suggest this is in any way “deserved”. Having experienced the trauma of what I thought to be a miscarriage, I can sympathize. No one “deserves” it.
Well, I think that they made some mistakes with Josie. But again, I think they are generally decent parents, even if I disagree with some of their methods. And really, there are about a million children in blatantly abusive homes I worry about, that I don’t really want to put my energy condemning a family where I don’t see signs of neglect or abuse.
the gossip has to stop …it is none of our business what the Duggars do and don’t do..It’s her body and her choice to have children and she does because she believes that children have value. All you liberal gossipers with comments need to knock it off! I love how you cry “my body my choice” and then turn around and try to tell someone else what to do with their body and the child’s body. Michelle and Jim Bob have suffered a loss and so have 19 children who were looking forward to having a new sibling.
those of you with nasty mean opinions who are on here just to share what YOU think she should do..nicely I say. SHUT UP! What and why the Duggars do what they do is none of your business! And I say, God bless them during this hard time of loss! those of us who actually care about you are praying for you..and I am happy to say, I can hardly wait to meet you all in heaven..
PS overpopulation is a myth…check the videos out on this site http://www.overpopulationisamyth.com
Lynn,
If the Duggars don’t want comments on their business then they shouldn’t put it on the internet and national media. If you’re going to put your life and business out there for the world to see, expect comments good and bad. Like it or not, there’s something called freedom of speech.
Yeah, those wonderful pro-woman pro-abortion folk… calling women machines and clown cars. Not misogynistic at all! Nope. not a bit.
CC and Infidel… please do us a favor then to stem overpopulation and leave the planet. The longer you stay here arguing the more you are using up valuable resources that I will need because I plan to keep on having babies. Mmmkay? Thanks!
Hi JackBorsch,
I also think they are decent people. I respect your perspective concerning abuse but continue to have my own.
I really think that people need to stop with the snarky posts telling people to off themselves? You never know, you could be talking to someone who is suicidal, it may cause some damage.
Mary, we will agree to disagree. I will take a slight issue with the “public people should expect criticism” thing. Yeah, is true to an extent. But I am not big on judging people in general. Just because someone puts their life out there doesn’t mean I need to judge them on it. I can turn the tv off and never hear another word about the Duggars or anyone else if they bug me.
Jack, nobody is telling them to kill themselves. Aren’t there apparently aliens out there who would be willing to take them in? I am just asking them to leave the planet if they are so concerned about overpopulation. After all, they think they can tell us or Michelle to stop having children and blah blah blah about limited resources. Its hypocritical for them to stay then. They can hit the road then…
JackBorsch,
Yes we will agree to disagree. You put your business out there for the world to know, expect feedback good and bad. You don’t want the world to comment on your business, then don’t tell them!
Well, the reason I have a problem with it is that just because someone is in the public eye, doesn’t mean that we HAVE to judge them or say anything. I don’t know, I have just seen that rationalization used to excuse some absolutely disgusting comments. Not that you are out of line, not at all, but I have seen people say that they deserved to lose that baby, that they deserve to die, etc, etc. I have seen rape and child sexual abuse victims who came forward with their abuse publicly called sluts and whores, just horrible stuff. I think, in general, people should try to remember that they are talking about real people with real feelings, even if they are in the public eye and are opening themselves up for it.
Sorry, Sidney, I just find it a little unnerving and rude. I have been told to “get off the planet” when discussing environmental concerns and such. I just think it’s not a particularly nice thing to say.
I’m sorry Jack. Not trying to be rude. Just pointing out their hypocrisy. I actually am pro-environment and think we should take care of this beautiful earth God has given us. But at the same time, He created this earth and all on it and gave dominion of the earth to man. God told us to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth. All in the earth is for man’s use. God is in control and He will not create too many people for this planet to sustain.
Not to mention all the people harping about overpopulation are folks who want abortion and euthanasia legalized and forced on populations by governments. Its all a part of the bigger plan, I think, for a one world government. Fear of overpopulation is just one way to get the sheeple in line.
But I find it annoying when those who would shriek about hurting the planet with overpopulation are still here. There are those who even urge others to kill themselves to save the planet… yet THEY are STILL HERE! The hypocrisy annoys me so much.
I of course do not want ANYONE to kill themselves. I do not believe in suicide. I just want these people to realize how hypocritical it is to say there are not enough resources for my two sons and that they should not be here yet apparently the resources are plenty for the overpopulation folks who continue to breathe air and eat food every day. They want to deny others but not deny themselves. Maybe because deep inside they know overpopulation is a myth!
I am really glad no one was filming me when my 6 month old fell off the changing table because I turned away for a moment.
Or that time I lost my son in the Walmart and they had to call a code red.
Or I took my sick 5 month old in a car for 12 hours to visit the grandparents for Christmas and ended up having to take him to the emergency room on Christmas Day.
You might think I’m a bad mother or something.
Yeah, well, sometimes we need to use hyperbole to get our points across lol, or point out hypocrisy or logical failings. I just think sometimes people get lumped into ideologies that they don’t support because they share viewpoints with others. I have a lot of concern for our unsustainable lifestyles, the wasted food, the ridiculous amounts of fossil fuels and lack of interest in more renewable energies, etc. I get frustrated because I have these concerns, and when I try to talk about them, people sometimes devolve into accusing me of supporting things I don’t (like abortion). I do not share your views on God, while you have every right to believe them I don’t share your confidence that we won’t destroy the world while we are trying to “subdue” it. I do think, though, that sometimes people are so confident that God will protect the earth that they don’t seem to notice we are doing some horrible things to the planet.
Of course, I don’t support abortion and I would never condemn people for the amount of children they do or don’t have, so your comment didn’t really apply to me. It just rankled a bit. :)
Courtnay, I definitely don’t think anyone should call you a bad mom for making a mistake or for your kid having an accident! Once I lost my son at the park for thirty minutes at the park, that was terrifying. Another time my daughter had a fever, and I fell asleep and when I woke up her fever had climbed to 103 and I had to rush her to the ER. Everyone makes mistakes.
Hi Courtnay,
Your 6 month old fell off the changing table too? I was a basket case. She fell right in front of me and I still don’t know how that happened. Then there was the time she ran into an oncoming car in the parking lot. The poor driver was an elderly woman more shook up than my daughter.
Then my son tumbled down the basement steps, my oldest flew out the back of her father’s van. Oy. Good thing these little ones are so resilient.
Certainly mistakes with our children don’t make us bad parents.
However, when I left the country for a week, my three children, none of who had health issues, were left in the care of their father and an older mature adult woman who was their regular sitter.
Jack, unfortunately there are people who use “saving the earth” to further their “lets kill people” ideology. Of course you have stated you are pro-life. The thing is, I agree with you that I want us to take care of the earth. But I don’t see it as a “We’re all gonna DIE!!!!!” kind of thing. Its more of, “i am so in awe of the creation God has made that I want to be a good steward of all He has given us, so lets take care of this earth.”
Jack, I definitely agree with you on the judgmental issues.
Mary, I think we could agree that there is the potential that some of the decisions made were not the best decisions or possibly that they were not decisions that we would have made. I think we could also agree that NO ONE consistently, 100% of the time, makes the right decisions. I can think of plenty of mistakes and poor judgment calls I have made in my life… some of them in my parenting… some of them in my marriage, etc.
Making poor decisions is not in and of itself neglect or abuse, however.
I work NICU and pediatrics. I have spent many a shift in various pediatric ERs in a major inner city area. I have seen child abuse and child neglect. I have seen children with severe disabilities left in their own feces with massive bedsores and malnutrition. THAT is neglect. I have been in the CT room while we scanned the bodies of injured toddlers and found signs of bones broken in various stages of healing all OVER their tiny little bodies. I have cared for a child who was blind in one eye and suffering a severe infection deep into her bones because she was locked in the closet after being beaten… and she was locked in there with the corpse of her dead sister who had just been beaten to death, and was in there for several days while her sister’s body decomposed. I have held and rocked NICU babies who are detoxing from their mother’s use of heroin, methamphetamines, cocaine and more.
I know what neglect and abuse look like. Please do not trivialize them by confusing them with possibly poor decisions (that are easier to detect in hindsight btw.)
Ya, Elizabeth is able to identify real abuse. Some people need to get a grip with the second guessing.
The Duggars invited a bit of this by becoming public figures, but it’s astounding how much time is spent on it.
You can bet that if any real abuse happened in that home, their world would have already come crashing down around them.
There’s a culture of self centeredness, and I guess that some kids are raised brought up not having to do anything to help out. So the idea of routine chores and duties in a family are shocking to these people.
In rural areas and in times past, a family would not make it without “child labor”. It was a matter of survival. At this time, the food producers of the country are threatened by labor regulations from people who have no idea of this, nor even where and how the food is produced. (By means of ridiculous regulations, some of these second guessers in government have made themselves a danger to humanity.)
Working, producing and succeeding bring self esteem which is deserved. Maybe this is the reason the Duggar kids aren’t complaining.
Jack,
That was me. Sorry.
When others encourage folks to abort to “save the planet” I always think……
YOU FIRST!!
I apologize.
Hi Elisabeth,
I didn’t accuse the Duggars of abuse. I did consider them indifferent and uncaring to Josie and her needs on both occasions, sometimes to help with TV ratings, and with this I have a very big issue. I also see the dumping of Josie on an older sibling to free Michelle and JB up to do what they want, and I have made plain what I think of this Duggar practice. I am also disturbed at another pregnancy being treated like the daredevil’s next stunt by fans, the media, and the Duggars, with no regard to Michelle’s safety or the well being of her children. This family and the rest of us have fallen into this trap of TV ratings and voyeurism and it has and will produce some very serious consequences.
In the judgment as a parent department I haven’t always won prizes either. Indeed, as you say, hindsight is wonderful and has caused me to give myself more than a few swift kicks!
I thank and commend you for your service in peds and high risk maternity care.
I’m sorry to say I too have seen horrific abuse of children, spouses,and the elderly. I still remember the 5 month old with a skull fracture, the dirty poisoned children brought in by their mother and their father’s threats to the mother that she “would get it” when they got home. Then there was the “respectable” city businessman who brought in his abused wife, who obviously “deserved” her black eye. I wanted to belt that smug self satisfied jerk in the mouth. He could have at least had the decency to be embarassed. In our line of work Elisabeth we definitely do not see the best the human race has to offer.
Then there are my brother’s stories as a police officer in a big city dept. but that’s another chapter!! Oh, and my own upbringing where spousal, verbal and emotional abuse and visits by the police were a fact of life, but every effort was made to be the “normal” family. “Respectable” women and “good” wives were not abused.
I also know that abuse can be hidden behind the facade of respectiblility, a “happy” marriage, an “ideal” family and religious conviction and that it is not always obvious. Also, abuse takes many forms.
Sorry Elisbeth but I see too many disturbing red flags here.
Mary, you keep saying you are not accusing them of abuse, while simultaneously trying to build the case that you think they are secretly abused.
Mary, isn’t it possible you are projecting your experiences onto the Duggar family?
Hi Pharmer,
My following remarks are about abuse in general and not the Duggars specifically.
Take my word for it, having lived in an abusive situation and seen my share of abuse of every segment of society, and hearing my brother’s accounts, I can assure you abuse does not alway make itself obvious. Have you ever been shocked to find out abuse was going on in a marriage or family? If you have, then I have just made my argument.
Also Pharmer, don’t be so certain that abuse is immediately spotted or taken care of. If only that were true. Both Elizabeth and I can assure you it is not. Its amazing what lengths people will go to to maintain “respectablity” or how indifferent they can be to the suffering of others. i.e. “I don’t want to get involved.”
BTW Pharmer, children having chores and responsiblities is not “shocking” to me. I was expected to help in the care of my invalid grandfather, which meant preparing him lunch, seeing to it he went to the bathroom, then situating him in his chair before returning back to school after lunchtime where I was in 4th grade. After school I had to make sure he went to the bathroom again and make certain he hadn’t had any accidents. Didn’t kill me, though it breaks my heart now to realize what a terrible indignity this very outstanding and religious man was subjected to. Imagine a school child taking you to the bathroom?
My issue is with foisting parental responsiblities on children so that a mother can satisfy her baby hunger, a need for pregnancy and a new baby, and turning daughters who are young women into resident nannies and housekeepers so as to satisfy this need. That’s exactly what I see going on here, as much as that may offend some people.
Certainly in times past things were different. My father was adopted as a child to work as a farmhand, though this was done under the guise of providing a child with a Christian upbringing and education. My grandmother and her sisters were little more than indentured servants. Look around the world today or even in our own communities, and you will certainly see plenty of horror stories where children are concerned. Elizabeth and I gave only a few examples.
You say the Duggar kids aren’t complaining? Maybe its because they don’t dare, or no one is really listening.
Mary, watch this short clip: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/45207374#45207374
Hi Bethany 9:24am
I think my own experiences with abuse as a child and abuse victims has taught me that all that glitters is not gold, to look for red flags, and I’m sorry to say Bethany I see them. I still remember my mother’s efforts to convince people her second marriage was the most idyllic on the planet. Believe me it wasn’t. Abuse doesn’t have to take the form of battery and I am not suggesting the Duggar children are physically abused, not have I, nor would I without some very solid evidence.
I’m saying I see things I find very disturbing and continue to, and I have pointed them out.
I agree that all that glitters is not gold, but I think you are allowing your very negative experiences to cloud your view of the Duggar family, instead of seeing them through an objective lens. I would hate for my family to be judged in such a manner just because we might happen to have qualities about us that remind you of something in your past.
And Mary, I had a very similar upbringing to the one you describe, by the way (minus the police visits).
Hi Bethany,
Thank you for the clip. I won’t comment on what I see here because I’m afraid I’d upset and anger you and you are someone I like and greatly respect.
But do you think they would dare say otherwise?
What reason do you have to believe they are not being honest, besides projected feelings from your own past?
I am sure you feel that what they have said is rehearsed and not from their heart. Why do you think they display such confidence? Someone who is beaten down emotionally will not have such confidence.
Also, why do you think the oldest son has not rebelled and gone the other way now that he is “free”?
Hi Bethany,
I’m sorry to hear of your childhood experience. Obviously it didn’t stop you from being an outstanding woman, wife, and mother. I think the police visits inspired my brother to become a cop, if nothing else! I remember staring up at the officers in absolute awe of them. Earlier I had forced a knife out of my sister’s hand after she sliced my father’s thumb with it. Another Sunday afternoon.
The fact is Bethany, like everyone I started out admiring and defending the Duggars. And I’m sure if my family was put on TV, analysts would be having a field day!
But when there is a picture of the “ideal” family being presented, my advice is to stand back and take a second look. This cheering on another future pregnancy like its some kind of a game or score to be kept is despicable, and that’s what the audience and this family are being reduced to. There is no regard for Michelle’s personal safety or the well being of her family.
“Earlier I had forced a knife out of my sister’s hand after she sliced my father’s thumb with it. Another Sunday afternoon.”
My goodness, Mary!
Hi Bethany,
Do you think they would dare say anything else? What would happen if these girls were to say they would rather go to school, have careers, (I have heard a couple express desires to have careers) and if mom wants to have the babies, she can take care of them!
Frankly Bethany, this is exactly what I would expect them to say. That’s my point.
Why would Josh rebel? He’s not stuck in the house with housework and babysitting.
From what I have seen he is treated more as an equal to his father.
Hi Bethany 19:38am
That’s pretty tame compared to the time the man across the street chased his wife with a butcher knife. Then later, after the police settled things down, the damned fool got depressed and stuck his thumb in the fan and his wife was convinced he was trying to kill himself. She should have been so lucky.
Jill is currently earning her bachelors in nursing.
Three of the older Duggars are volunteer firefighters- two of those are girls.
Sorry, I was wrong…5 Duggars are firefighters, 3 are girls. Jana, Jill, and Jessa.
Hi Bethany,
Good for Jill! I’m afraid though the real world is going to be a shocker for her. Elisabeth and I didn’t even cover the tip of the iceberg!
How many children do you have now Bethany? I’m afraid I’ve lost count :0
Five…no where near 20! lol
Hi Bethany,
Good for you!! :)
The world is not going to be a shocker for them. I grew up in a very protective environment like the Duggars. I knew what was going on in the world I was just protected from it. When I got out in the world it wasn’t “shocking” as I was already grounded.
Think of the kids with no protection who are introduced to “the world” as little children, never to be protected like a young sapling while they grounded their roots in something stable like a godly, loving family. Those are the kids who grow up maladjusted. The Duggar kids are grounded. They’re not naive little morons. Because they don’t rebel against their parents and try to sneak off for teen sex and teen drinking people think they’re “in for a shock”. I don’t think so.
Hi Sydney M,
Take my word for it, in the world of nursing at least, Jill will be in for a few jolts. I never ceased to be surprised and still am not at what I encounter, and I am considerably more jaded. I wish her every success with her career choice and studies.
Also Sydney, I did not equate rowdy teen behavior with reality shock. Despite a rather jaded childhood, no one was a more quiet, submissive, and “good” teenager than I was, though I suspect I was raised a little more streetwise than any of the Duggars.
Not until I started working as a nursing assistant in a large hospital was I really introduced to the more unseemly aspect of life. Exposure to college life really bowled be over, and nursing, especially in the ER., a continued education in life’s more unpleasant aspects. Also, Elisabeth has had a few interesting tales to tell as well so no area in nursing is immune.
Take my word for it Syndney M, she’s in for quite a few jolts. As to how grounded she is remains to be seen.
Well I disagree Mary. I have many friends who grew up in sheltered Christian home like I did (and similar to the Duggars) who also went to Christian college and pursued nursing careers. They are all doing extremely well in their careers. Being raised in a strict home where the world and its corrosiveness is held at bay during the formative years of childhood is not a bad thing! You can say “no you’re wrong” all you want but I lived that kind of childhood and I’ve seen my friends live that kind of childhood. My friends especially have done very well in their careers and in fact their employers seem to prefer them. Must be the values and ethics their parents instilled in them instead of plopping them down in front of the TV. So disagree all you want I still say you are misinformed.
Hi Sydney M,
I’m just telling your from experience, when she gets into the world of the hospital and nursing, she’s going to get a jolt. I’m not saying she won’t do very well, I’m sure she’ll be an excellent nurse. I’m sure your friends are very successful in their careers. Also, I didn’t say you were wrong!
Its like police work. One can’t encounter what a police officer does, as has my brother, and not be shocked and dismayed, as well as a little jaded, as to what the world holds.
Whatever our upbringing, dealing with lowlifes, drunks, abusers, the abused, murder victims, and druggies, their victims, death, suicide, sickness, childhood cancer, senseless debilitating injury, mangled bodies…to name only some of what Jill can expect to see, can only be a nasty reality check on what the real world is all about. Oh and did I mention getting struck and verbally abused by drunks, attacked by psychotics, and dealing with people who think they’re werewolves on the nites of the full moon.
Even labor and delivery, which should be a little happier, will have its druggies, street women, welfare queens, babies with severe anamolies, and yes even death. Recently I saw a young mother die. I saw another young mother die of pre eclampsia which is why, unlike some people on this board, I treat it with the respect it deserves.
But you know what Sydney M, this has all been part of the job and I love what I do and always have and would never do anything else. And no, I am not the least bit misinformed. I know exactly what Jill is in for. One very rude awakening to the reality of life.
I’ve only seen a few episodes in the last year, but I did see the clip of Michelle over Josie’s hospital bed. I wouldn’t say she was “fantasizing” about her next pregnancy. It seemed more like nervous small talk to me.
Though they’ve been around the camera for years, they can still feel awkward, and have an “Unusual weather, huh?” moment. Like movie stars who curse on talk shows and say: “Oops! Can you say that?”
Also, judging by the flash sit-down interviews, those kids look quite normal to me. I don’t get a whiff of nervous restraint from them. Large families have chores just like modest-sized ones. There’s no shutting themselves in their rooms for hours on end. And I consider that a good thing. Their family is a microcosm of the “real world”.
Hi Hans,
I guess its all in how you perceive people and what they are saying. I saw it as something she desired, almost like a fantasy. What has really upset me the most and has caused me to spout off as I have is the treating of a pregnancy like its a goal in itself with no possible consequences for Michelle, her unborn child, and her children. This isn’t a horse race where people stand on the sidelines and cheer, and speculate how fast Michelle will get to the finish line(pregnancy), these are people’s lives that could be negatively impacted. But some people, including some on this blog get so absorbed by a pregnancy they see little else, including the serious risk to Michelle and her unborn child, and that has what has really angered me. This is a woman and unborn child at risk, these are children who’s lives can be disrupted and could lose a mother. This isn’t a game, nor is it a contest as to who can get pregnant and how quickly.
I’m disturbed how ratings have taken precedence over good judgment where Josie is concerned and had serious consequences for her in Israel.
While I have pointed out other “red flags” and I stand by what I said, I have found this cheering on pregnancy like its a score to be kept, or some kind of ratings enhancer, despicable.
Remember too Hans that this show is edited. You see only what has been cleared for you to see.
Hi Mary,
It’s okay with me that you worry for their health and welfare. But I don’t think there would be any great disappointment for most of us if their family was “complete” at this point. There’s plenty of interest in how they manage with the 19.
It’s not so much cheering for another pregnancy - it’s just an added “bonus” to the show. Abstinence till menopause may be easier on our nerves, but in the end, it’s really up to them.
Hopefully, Josie is getting stronger every day.
Several people here have asked how the Duggars suport their large family.They are paid between $25 and 30 thousand per TV show.Both Michelle and her husband are licenced estate agents,they own property and have built and own their home ,they have no credit cards and shop at thrift stores.
I am sad to hear about their loss , may they find comfort in oneanother.
Michells birthing days need to be over , she very nearly lost her life last year giving birth.
Mary, I don’t think the Duggar family takes pregnancy as lightly as you seem to think they do. They simply have not changed their decision that they made years ago- that they will not use birth control, and that they trust God is in control. This doesn’t mean that Michelle is just desperately hoping she’ll get pregnant again. The reason she is thrilled when she is pregnant again is because she knows that God gave her that child, and she trusts He would not give her a baby unless He wanted her to have another.
They know that there are things that could happen. She has had complications in some of her earlier pregnancies. She has been through a lot. She has suffered terrible morning sickness with each pregnancy. Believe it or not, she doesn’t enjoy BEING pregnant as much as you might think. They don’t take pregnancy and childbirth, or their other children lightly. They are deeply committed to their children. If you’ll read their books, you’ll understand a little more about their beliefs and reasonings behind many of the things they do. It is simply not fair to make assumptions based on your past family experiences.
I am sure when Josie gets older, she will let everyone know how thankful she is that she is here, and that her mother didn’t choose to stop with the first preeclampsia experience. (which happened several children before her)
Also, fertility is not a disease that needs to be cured. There is a reason our bodies work the way they do. Michelle is not being irresponsible by not medicating herself against being a woman. Children are not analogous to cigarettes.
Hi Hans and Sallie,
Its not so much my worry as it is my anger that something this serious is treated like a spectator sport with no regard or consideration to the well being and safety of anyone, and its done under the guise of pro life. So who cares if Michelle is placing herself and another child at serious risk? Its just great that she’s pregnant.
Pro-life isn’t just serial reproduction, its the safety, care, and well being of the parents and children as well. Bad parental judgment, and I have been guilty as anyone, is one thing, but twice totally disregarding a child’s safety is another. Relegating the care of small children onto their siblings isn’t my idea of Christian parenting and neither is turning your daughters into household maids and nannies.
People have gotten so wrapped up in the pregnancies they look at little else, and they cheer the next pregnancy like its a horse race and not the potentially life threatening/altering issue that it truly is.
I just hope people step back and take a long look, especially at themselves.
You are right Sallie, she nearly lost her life, as well as did Josie, and for that reason we people who call ourselves “pro-life” should stop treating this entire situation like a spectator sport.
It’s not like a spectator sport, Mary. They don’t take it as lightly as you suggest they do.
They truly care about all of their children, and spend nearly ALL of their time with all of the children, training them, loving them, teaching them, leading them.
You could not leave that many children to themselves and end up with so many children with good manners, who treat their siblings as friends, who are so confident, mature, and capable. You just couldn’t. They would be chaotic if all Michelle and Jim Bob focused on was each new baby.
There is no disregarding of Michelle’s safety of the safety of her child, Mary. You are speculating and making mistakes along the way as a result. She has received prompt medical care for each problem she has ever faced. Before she got pregnant with this baby, she was taking extra measures to be healthier than ever. She started a new diet and she started using an elliptical 1 hour a day for 5 days a week. She has lost a lot of weight and is healthier than she’s been in previous pregnancies. They continually seek the advice of their doctors and do everything they can to ensure that things go as smoothly as they can.
Hi Bethany,
Sorry, I just noticed you here! I wasn’t ignoring your posts.
Bethany, it seems to me the only thing the Duggars trust God for is conception. They certainly don’t trust Him to get Michelle and baby to term, do they? They don’t trust Him to keep their children healthy do they? No, apparently God needs a little help in these areas from the medical profession. I see this putting conception in “God’s hands” as Michelle justifying and satisfying her “baby hunger”, the need for an infant. Ever notice that as soon as the children become toddlers they are relegated to a sibling to care for so that mom can enjoy another pregnancy and new infant? I was convinced Michelle had a pregnancy addiction but “baby hunger” may be more accurate. Or it may be both. Whatever, in my opinion, this woman had a definite physical and psychological need for pregnancy and an infant.
Thankfully Michelle got through her pregnancies, until Josie, without another bout of pre-e.(I got it right this time Elisabeth!) So did my sister in law who had it only in her first pregnancy, and that was late in the pregnancy when it occured. I also know a woman who had two serious bouts of second trimester pre-e, like Michelle’s bout, and then had a tubal ligation. She wanted to make certain she lived to raise her two children who thankfully survived like she did.
However Bethany if you research the internet, Michelle has anywhere from a 40 to 70% chance of recurrence, and with that comes a serious risk to her unborn child as well.
I saw a mother die of this, and its a conditition that needs to be treated with the respect it deserves. Dr.Jen Gunter, OB/GYN has stated its the third highest cause of maternal death and that Michelle is playing “Russian roulette” both with her life and that of her unborn child’s. As I stated in my last post, this is one of the reasons I am distressed that PL people are focusing on serial reproduction and not the safety of the mother and child.
Bethany, you can perceive this family how you choose. Who’s writing the books? I’m not suggesting there is abuse, I said I see red flags. Daughters relegated to gender roles as nannies and housemaids. Is this their choice or do they have no choices? When you have no choices, you might just very well smile and say what you know you should.
It makes me think of the old south where white people would say how “happy their colored people” were. Did black people dare say different?
Fertility is not a disease. Neither is eating. However, we practice responsible food choices, or at least we should. At dinnertime you don’t feed your children donuts. When having another child could pose a serious risk to a woman’s safety and that of her unborn child, we as PL people don’t stand on the sidelines and cheer like its a horse race.
Children aren’t analogous to cigarettes, but addictions are addictions and whatever they are to, they can be deadly. I recently saw a young mother die in childbirth despite our desperate efforts to save her. The mother is saw die of pre-e had already delivered and was thought to be “out of the woods”, until she developed violent seizures and brain death. Childbirth can be as deadly as cigarettes. Like eating, we have to practice good choices and common sense. We don’t cheer people for risking their lives and safety with poor eating choices, and I would think as PL people we don’t do the same when a woman is taking a serious risk with her life and that of her unborn child.
Hi Bethany,
When I talk of a spectator sport I am referring to PL people who cheer the pregnancy with no regard to anyone’s safety or well being. I refer to fans who are questioning when the next pregnancy is, with no regard to anyone’s well being. To me this is treating a very serious matter like a spectator sport, and its despicable.
Also Bethany, keep in mind what you see is selected and edited. The books you read are written by the parents. Do we really know what these children are like or what goes on in the household when the cameras are off? Does anyone know about your life and family what you don’t want them to? That’s not suggesting there is anything bad or abusive, its just a fact of life. Unless we live in a household or spend time looking in people’s windows, we do NOT know.
Yes Michelle is getting care. She was getting care when she had her last bout of pre-e as well, that didn’t prevent Michelle and Josie from nearly losing their lives, and it won’t change the risk of a repeat episode. The women I saw die were getting good care too, and were not abusing their health in any way. Some things are just beyond our control, whatever we do.
Oh and so as not be be sexist,
I will point out that men can also show some responsibility when it comes to the safety of their wives and children. I hold Jim Bob every bit as responsible for the well being and safety of his wife and children, and as far as I’m concerned, Rusty Yates is as, if not more, responsible as Andrea for the deaths of those 5 children.
Mary, what are you talking about? What do you mean they don’t trust God to get them to term safely? If they rejected medicine you’d probably have a fit over that too. They go to doctors, they trust doctors but because they don’t want to ingest harmful chemicals you are somehow up in arms about that?
You are IGNORING the fact that Michelle had complications in EARLIER pregnancies and yet went on to have healthy, uncomplicated pregnancies thereafter. You point out Josie’s preterm birth as if no other woman on earth has EVER had a preterm birth before! Bethany keeps pointing this out but you just keep on ignoring it.
I respect the Duggars for standing by their convictions and beliefs. It must be annoying to have to defend yourself constantly to the types of busy bodies I’ve seen on this thread on and on others. And I know how that feels. I had to defend my decision to have a SECOND child to a lot of busy bodies. How bout everybody, how many children a married couple decides to have isn’t really any of our concern? If you think they’re terrible parents and they foist their kids off on the older kids and they’re pregnancy obsessed, then just don’t watch the show!
Hi Sydney M 1:58PM
I have no issues with Michelle having medical care, in fact I hope she would. I just find it an interesting dichotomy that conception is completely in the hands of the lord, they put themselves completely in the hands of the lord, but getting to term safely requires a little human help. I find faith like this conveniently selective but have no real problem with it.
There is birth control that does not require ingesting harmful chemicals and again if they don’t want to practice it, fine. The local Amish near me at least practice what they preach about trusting the lord. We very rarely see them in the hospital or on the OB service.
Sydney, not all pre-e follows the same course. I mentioned my sister in law who didn’t develop it until her third trimester and delivered normally. Her next two pregnancies were uneventful. A friend of ours developed severe second trimester pre-e, like Michelle’s, with her first and was advised to have no more children. She accidentally became pregnant again, developed the same condition again, but thankfully delivered normally, then had her tubes tied. No more Russian roulette for her.
Michelle is at serious risk for a repeat episode, whatever has happened in earlier pregnancies. She is at risk for another premature baby. I’ve read anywhere from 40 to 70%. I saw a 20 year old mother die from this after delivering full term and thought to be “safe”. I cared for these women in ICU, and was on the phone to the OB nurses most of the night. Nothing struck terror in us like a pregnant patient! It is the third leading cause of maternal mortality in the US. This is a condition that you treat with the respect its due. What about Josie’s birth are you talking about?
Defend oneself to busybodies? How about not putting your business on the internet and TV? But then they are well compensated to do so, right? Sorry, but the criticism comes with the praise. Why would you defend your decision to have a second child to anyone? Tell them to take a flying leap. Come to think of it some people thought I was nuts to have a third, so I guess that’s life.
I didn’t say they were terrible parents but I do consider foisting one’s younger children onto the older ones to care for not the best parenting technique. Do these children have the maturity to properly parent?
I don’t watch the show. Watching a child being filmed while she coughs, wheezes and cries in an emergency room isn’t my idea of entertainment. I dealt with enough of that in real life.
Mary: I just find it an interesting dichotomy that conception is completely in the hands of the lord, they put themselves completely in the hands of the lord, but getting to term safely requires a little human help. I find faith like this conveniently selective but have no real problem with it.
Isn’t that the nature of unprovable belief, though? If one starts out with the desire to have more kids, then saying, in effect, “We’ll take however many pregnancies the Lord sends,” makes sense. It would also make sense to try and ensure getting to term by human means, since that’s what’s desired.
Many, many people, have the same beliefs, but when they’re not able to get pregnant, don’t hesitate to use “human means” to get around what is apparently “natural” for them.
I think I understand what you are saying, Mary, but I think that you have a misunderstanding of what it is they believe.
Let me explain it as well as I can, and hopefully it will make more sense to you.
The Duggar family believes that the Bible is the word of God. The Bible consistently refers to children as blessings. Never are they considered burdens. They are considered gifts from God. If a child is a gift from God, then wouldn’t it be silly to reject one of God’s gifts?
As for medical care, that isn’t even the same issue at all. The Bible talks of doing what we can to help those who are sick, diseased, etc, and who doesn’t remember the story of the good Samaritan? Going to the doctor doesn’t have anything to do with not trusting God. God gave us doctors to help protect life and preserve health. God gave doctors the ability to help heal others. It’s really a completely different issue than allowing God to give you a gift of a child, and it is not a sign of distrust to use doctors.
” I saw a 20 year old mother die from this after delivering full term and thought to be “safe”.”
If this happens to women who are expected to be safe, and for others who have had it, somehow the next time they make it through fine- then obviously there’s no real certain way to prevent this from happening at all. The only way to be 100 percent sure no one goes through it would be to make sure no one ever gets pregnant. Ever.
Doug 4:40PM
Brilliantly put! You make as much sense as anyone is going to. Always go to hear from you.
Hi Bethany,
Thank you. I think however that what God truly means or wants is open to a variety of interpretations. According to the religious convictions of some people, doctors and hospitals are strictly forbidden by God, and not viewed as his agents.
That aside, I appreciate your point and as I say I have no issue with the Duggars getting medical care, in fact I am relieved that they would. From my perspective its an interesting dichotomy, but that’s just me. Its something we could discuss forever and never resolve.
What I was pointing out with the young mother Bethany was how unpredictable and dangerous this disorder is, and as such must be treated with the respect it deserves.
The mother, having delivered, was not necessarily “safe”, poor choice of words on my part, but certainly past a major hurdle. Tragically the woman’s condition only worsened and she developed seizuring. Being this was her first pregnancy, no one could predict this would happen. As for my other friend she was advised to have no more children after her severe pre-e in her first pregnancy, and didn’t plan to, except she became pregnant again, and decided to risk going to term. Thankfully she got through the second bout of severe pre-e but called it quits for good!
Sorry I’m a little delayed in answering Bethany I’m sharing the computer with my visiting daughter…. now I’m back!
A child as a gift from God is fine with me, but I would also think part of that gift is the responsibility of caring for the children and I cannot agree that foisting children unto young children to free mom up to have more babies is responsible parenting. Would Michelle be having these babies one after another if she had to haul the diaper bags around, chase the toddlers, carry the kids, be constantly changing diapers and potty training, supervising feeding, preparing meals, feeding, giving baths, fretting about where the kids are, etc… like the rest of us parents have had to do, and I’m sure you do your share of with 5 children?
Instead she’s chirping like a bird, smiling, and talking on the joys of motherhood. Small wonder since she’s got her daughters doing the drudge work. As I pointed out Bethany, my father and his sister were supposedly adopted to be raised and educated in a good Christian home. Actually his adoptive parents were more interested in a farmhand and
and a domestic servant. People satisfy their own needs under the guise of religious conviction and I remain convinced Michelle satisfies her “baby hunger” under the guise of doing the lord’s bidding. I also think JB could be expected to exercise a little self control too, especially where his wife’s health and children’s well being is concerned. No matter what the Lord’s involvement, nothing will happen if JB keeps it zipped.
I think her pre eclampsia history is a very serious concern and Michelle AND JB have 19 children to think of, one of whom may have special needs. You know what I think of some of their judgment calls, and I use that term loosely, concerning that little girl. Is serial reproduction good Christian parenting and following the lord’s teaching, or is it exercising good judgment in caring for the gifts he has given us?
So sorry to hear of Your loss. What a beautiful family You have. Out of 7 only my brother and I survived. Mom had 5 miscarriges. I always felt like something was missing in my life. Now I am the only survivor @63, Gof bless all of You.
Hi Kathy,
I’m so sorry for your loss. Your mother was blessed to have a daughter like you.
Mary,
My conclusion about the Duggars is much different from yours, and it was not drawn from watching the unreality shows. Television is not very informative, most of the time. We have no cable here. I watched their website a bit, and read about them from various online sources.
People hate the Duggars because of their overt practice of their religion. There is not much space for these people to hide. They’re as public as the Palins, and you see what the media did to Sarah and the gang. You see what they do to Tim Tebow. If there is ever any serious scandal or abuse story with the Duggars, it will be out there. The haters are waiting for them to fall on their faces. They have adult and teenage kids. If the dirt were significant, we would hear about it.
People tend to show in their behavior whether or not some kind of abuse has happened. With many people it is evident in their body language. The main thing in determining how to respond, is to find out if the abuse is a current danger.
You’ve got a lot of time invested on this thread, and there’s no time to read or analyze all of it. Perhaps it is cathartic, but it is also public. It might be good to avoid giving out the info that could bother you (or people you care about) later, because the stuff on the internet tends to stay with you.
Very few people think the way I do. Helping patients always involves getting outside of my own mindset so I can better see what’s up with them. From the available evidence, the Duggars are just very different, but not creepy. Unless there appears some significant evidence otherwise, I will continue to assume that they are basically OK people and defend their right to do their own thing.
“I believe a girl can have a baby every year and become more beautiful, have a better figure and lovelier complexion, with each newborn.” — Jayne Mansfield.
Oops! I forgot to add that JM said, “I am living proof of my theory.”
I lost a baby around 20 weeks pregnant. You do not get a d&c. I had the option of waiting for my body to go into labor (which the doctor said could take weeks) or have labor induced immediately. I chose induction as I could not see myself trying to get on with life knowing I had a dead baby inside me. And for the record, a loss in first trimester is a miscarriage and a loss in second and third trimester is a stillbirth. A stillbirth takes a considerable toll on your body not only physically, but emotionally as well. I hope that anyone experiencing this takes the time to heal before having another child.
Hi tee,
I have pointed out that circumstances and treatment vary. All that aside, my sincerest sympathy on your very tragic loss.
Doug, the Duggars did not start out with the desire to have more kids. They only planned to have about 2 or maybe at the most, 3 children. That is, until they had a paradigm shift after Michelle’s first miscarriage.
If the fact that the Duggars teach the children to pull their own weight around the house means that they are terrible parents, then I also am a terrible parent by those standards. If I did all of the housework and did 100 percent of the baby work all of the time, I would have no time at all to spend talking to my children and getting to know them- or any time to talk to my husband either, for that matter. My children I would also be neglecting, by not teaching them how to get along in the real world.
I was unfortunate, never having been taught how to cook or clean after myself as a child (until I became a teenager, and even then, the work was light). I got married and didn’t know how to do anything! I was completely unprepared, just taking it for granted that things would be picked up afer me. It would have helped me SO much if I had had some sort of experience, so that things like getting the house cleaned wouldn’t have been such an overwhelming thing for me. I had to find role models to help me along the way, because I couldn’t get it in my own family.
After 14 children and pregnant again aired, I turned to the duggar family as some very positive role models, and I have been a much better parent as a result.
I learned how to use a soft voice, to be more patient, to praise my children 10 times more than I criticize them, among many other things.
I am so thankful that God brought the Duggar family to television because they gave me hope that YES, it can work. They gave me hope! You can be a good mother and things can work well if you have God in the center of your life and you apply His principles, and you love your children and stop thinking of them as burdens but as blessings from God.
Things are still not perfect, and I have a LONG way to go before I am anywhere near perfect as a mother, but I can see that there are definite positive changes since I started applying principles I learned from the Duggars. I have their rule chart hanging on our wall and I try to abide by the rules as well as my kids, and it has had such a positive impact on all of us.
I can see from my own home that a family really CAN be happy and close knit like that…it’s not just a show…they are the real deal, in my opinion.
Hi Pharmer,
Indeed our conclusions are different.
My idea of a man of religious conviction and love and concern for his wife and children is a man who would be adamant that he would not risk the safety of his wife with another pregnancy, or risk having his children lose their mother. I would think a man of true love and conviction would be so distressed over nearly losing his wife, and watching a child suffer a premature birth, that he would say “no more”! I have been wrong in laying this all on Michelle, JB has some responsiblity here too as a father and husband.
Honestly PHarmer, when I look at JB I see him morph into Rusty Yates, another man of “religious conviction” who ignored his wife’s deteriorating mental health and warnings that she have no more children. I maintain that there might be four living children instead of five dead ones had Rusty acted as a loving father and husband and like a man of true religious conviction.
As far as I’m concerned his wife should be in a mental hospital and him in her jail cell.
When I talk of “red flags” Pharmer I don’t mean someone is being strung up by their thumbs. I mean that there are troubling signs that all that glitters is not gold.
My opinion about JB is already stated. I am troubled by children raising children and daughters being relegated to the roles of nannies and housemaids. I am troubled by the total control of every aspect of the children’s lives, even the adult children, from who they socialize with to who they will marry. I’m troubled by a mother who seems solely focused on the next pregnancy, and foists her toddlers onto older siblings to better enable her to enjoy the new baby. Maybe you find this all evidence of religious conviction, I see some big time physical and psychological needs being met under the guise of religion. Just some of the things I find troubling.
But what especially enrages me Pharmer is PL people so focused on pregnancy they look at little else. Never mind the serious risk MIchelle is taking not only with her life but that of her unborn child’s. Serial reproduction is not PL and it does not represent religious conviction. Conducting oneself as parents and spouses truly looking out for what is best for each other and their children does.
On the seperate topic of abuse. Ever hear of the People’s Temple? I remember the mass suicide of these people who were so “happy”. Turns out for years horrific abuse and control had been going on while the public, even public officials, were totally clueless.
Yes Pharmer, abuse can be hidden, covered up, and conveniently ignored and it is naive and dangerous to think otherwise.
Hi Bethany,
Pulling one’s own weight is one thing, parental responsibilities foisted on children to make life easier for mom are another. I talked of taking care of my invalid grandfather when I was a 4th grader. I was a “latchkey” kid before anyone coined the term. Didn’t kill me.
You have to remember Bethany that what you are seeing is heavily edited. And the work and pressure you are under as a parent all of us who have been mothers emphasize with. I’ve sobbed from exhaustion and frustration more than once, with two kids climbing on my very pregnant belly! Yes motherhood is indeed easier when you can put your responsiblities off on others. Then its easy to smile and chirp on the joys of motherhood. It always grates me when I read of how Madame Celebrity “manages” a career and motherhood. Well, I could have managed beautifully too, with a nanny, housekeeper, personal asst., chef, chauffer, and staff of professionals to make sure I always looked gorgeous!
Marriage is a shock for anyone! I was and remain a lousy cook. I absolutely loathe cooking. My house, well let’s say its lived in look is because I am frankly too lazy most of the time to clean it. I would not have won mother of the year by any stretch.
If you learned things from the Duggars that helped you, great. You’ll get no argument from me. Your journey as a mother will be a long and arduous one, full of sadness, joy, mistakes, great success, and despite doing your best, like all of us mothers you will only look back and wish you could change so much, your children will be critical of you, and you will come to accept that you did the very best you could.
Good luck to you Bethany, I know you are an outstanding mother.
Mary: “Honestly PHarmer, when I look at JB I see him morph into Rusty Yates, another man of “religious conviction” who ignored his wife’s deteriorating mental health and warnings that she have no more children”
Whoa….. it’s really severe, Mary. I’d say that it’s time to display the courage of your strong convictions and give the Duggars a piece of your mind- personally. There are lives to save!
By these standards of yours, do all the women who have a preemie, or an emergency delivery with complications have to stop making babies. If they’re Catholic do they have to stop having sex?
Bummer.
That’s all, folks. ;-)
It is a tragic thing to lose a baby at any stage. There is no set time deciding when, if at all in some sad instances, a woman and her family get attached to the upcoming arrival. I imagine this family feels that attachment before they even know they are expecting.
As for what Jim does for a living (And only because I am sure a lot of people are curious, and I find this family to be fascinating in many ways…) he is a real estate agent, and a former state legislator who served in the Arkansas House of Representatives from 1999 to 2002.
He and Michelle talk about having taken a financial freedom seminar when they were both young and use a lot of those techniques to live now. They never buy new cars, and they spent 7 years living in a 900 sq ft home to save the money to buy their house when they had enough money to buy it outright. They made sacrifices to enable them what they wanted most, which was a large family that is provided for. Simply put, they are smart about it.
Jim has also published 2 books since the start of the show, and book sales obviously help provide for them as well. =)
Pharmer,
In both situations you have husbands putting their “religious convictions” above the safety and well being of their wives and children. You call it severe, I call it stating the obvious.
By my standards this means that when a man has seen his wife and child barely survive a pregnancy and delivery, he knows the risk of a repeat episode is significant, he watched his children and their lives uprooted, he watched his child suffer in the NICU, there is concern that several children could be left motherless, then yes, by my standards, this man has an obligation as a father and husband other than concerning himself with impregnating his wife again.
You know, something like Rusty Yates.
The two situations are completely incomparable, Mary.
Andrea Yates was suicidal and very unstable. She many times tried to commit suicide, and was depressed all of the time. She begged her husband to let her die as she put a knife to her neck. She had multiple psychiatric hospitalizations. She had postpartum psychosis. She mutilated her body!
You simply cannot compare her situation to Michelle Duggar, who is happy, thankful, enjoys her family and children, loves and appreciates her husband, and has a positive outlook on life. To compare them in any way is simply outrageous. Their “religious convictions” are in no way the same.
The children and pregnancies were not the problem in the Andrea Yates situation. There were many other factors involved.
If having 5 children – because of your religious conviction- makes you Andrea Yates automatically, then how in the world could I be a good mother to mine?
Guilt by association
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html
“Guilt by Association is the attempt to discredit an idea based upon disfavored people or groups associated with it. ”
Please don’t just assume that because both the Duggar family and the Yates family were both eschewed birth control, that eschewing birth control for religious reasons is automatically dangerous or wrong in and of itself.
Incidentally, Yates and the Duggars had completely different reasonings for not using birth control. Rusty actually wanted to try to have as many children as possible, even being willing to use a surrogate if necessary, regardless of the fact that Andrea did not want any more and was suicidal.
The Duggars were happy with whatever God gave them, be it 2 or 20, and are not struggling with mental issues. They would support the use any artificial means to conceive, because that is the opposite of trusting that God knows how many you should have. Even though the Duggar family does not associate itself with “Quiverfull”, I know “Quiverfull” people who have 1 child only, and are thankful for that child and content with that child, although they would be open to more if God chose to give them another.
Dead horse, meet stick.
Hi Bethany,
I think you have missed my point. In both cases, whatever the religious convictions or the reasons for not using birth control, husbands have shown a total indifference to the risks their wives are facing and the possible consequences.
The only concern is impregnating her.
To me, men of religious conviction would put the safety of their wives, and the well being of their children first and foremost.
Their situations are not identical, but as I did not see Rusty Yates as any victim, would anything have happened to Michelle and her unborn child, I would not have viewed Jim Bob as any victim either. Both men had responsiblities to their wives and children that they disregarded.
Having 5 children because of religious conviction is not the issue here, nor do I have an issue with it.
Rusty had an obligation to his wife and children when he saw her mental health deteriorate with each child, and it was not to perpetually impregnate his wife. I argue that JB has an obligation to his wife and children as well, and that is to protect his wife and their mother from any risk to her health and possibly her life. I believe your husband has the same obligation to you and your children, and you have to him and your children.
Let’s put it this way Bethany, the day I see JB and not his daughters carrying children and diaper bags, rocking a sick child, doing the household chores, preparing meals, giving baths, and all the other “joyful” chores of parenthood, then my opinion of him might change. It would certainly give his older daughters a much needed break.
As Mrs. Duggar becomes older, this will happen naturally more often. Her eggs are older and therefore risk to mutations just from hanging around. Look at your skin at 40 something. Not like it used to be!
So, if she keeps getting pregnant, her risk of stillbirth, down’s and any other genetic mutation is going way up!
Just think if everything you did was judge by the world….. Yes this is the choice of the family to be displayed for all the world to see, but they are sharing the gospel of Jesus! No one is telling you all how many kids to have or not to have! God loves each and every one and all our kids. We should to! I am the full-time mother of two amazing step-daughters I have adopted as my own. I have two of the most amazing little boys of my own. and I have just had a miscarriage! EVERY LIFE is a blessing. I will have as many children as the Lord will allow I do not care who judges me, to each there own. It is between the family and GOD! I Strive on a daily basis to be half the mother and have half the Christian character as Michelle Dugger! she is an amazing example of the Love of GOD. any one who has ever been through such a thing as she is going on now would ever make harsh and disgusting comments and if you have never been through it keep your mouth closed. I am not trying to be mean I just pray that people would stop judging. If you have children you know what a joy they are. if you chose to have only one so be it. if you chose to have 30…. then your heart is overflowing with a true and powerful love. My love and prayers go out to the Dugger family and to all of you! May God bless you in every way!
Duggar fam. I’m so sorry for this tragery God be with all of you!!!
These people are uttlerly disgusting. You think this is good parenting? They are home schooled, which will make them socially retarded when they grow up. They aren’t allowed to go to university, so most will not be successful. EVERYTHING to them is about god, therefore they can’t enjoy life because they are BRAINWASHED to only think about the afterlife. They aren’t even allowed to dance! Also, all the older kids slave to take care of the younger kids. They aren’t allowed to have a life. Doctors and nurses at the hospital she delivers at refuse to work on her because her uterus is quote ‘paper thin’, yet she still can’t close her legs despite the fact that that can cause birth defects, miscarriage, and possibly can be fatal to her. I truly hope she dies in childbirth soon.
“EVERYTHING to them is about god”
My goodness, the nerve of these people! I think it’s reasonable to give God 10, maybe 11 minutes of the day… but everything? No, 10 minutes is plenty.
Lol, you sound so educated with your argument, Loki. ”They believe in God and i dont like them, so they should die!”
Michelle’s uterus is stronger than most women’s uteruses. The doctors have actually commented on how healthy her uterus is.
…where to even begin? How about with: I don’t have a college degree and I’m (by reasonable standards) successful. ie financially independent, setting aside money every week; six months’ of expenses in savings, an IRA, etc. I was “supposed to” be a librarian but I took one look at the debt I’d have to incur and opted out – maybe someday, but that’s not how I wanted to start my adult life. For now, I actually consider myself lucky, because it’s a touch economy and I’m one of the only people my age I know who isn’t paying off student loans.
Loki,
I was the oldest of 6 kids. My mom had my youngest sister when I was 10, and my youngest sibling-another brother-when I was 13. I changed diapers, was able to make dinner for my entire family by age 12, by myself. I knew how to feed a baby, burp a baby, and care for a baby. And, I’m unfortunately one of the few people I’ve known in my age group my whole life that didn’t view babies as a life-ending death sentence or terrifying monsters to be avoided at all costs. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, in the least.
They are home schooled, which will make them socially retarded when they grow up.
LOL! You must not have Google. http://www.successful-homeschooling.com/famous-homeschoolers.html
Kel: LOL, you must not have common sense. I was talking about their lack of social skills, not success or intellect.
Bethany: I have a right to be mad that these people are polluting the earth I live in.
And where did you hear that? I know someone who lives near them, has been to their house and has had his mother (a nurse who works at the hospital her vagina becomes a clown car in) tell him about how many of the doctors and nurses refuse to work on her again, ‘paper thin uterus’, so I’m not buying that.
I forgot to mention the fact that they’re part of the Gothardism cult. Can’t fit much more idiocy into one family.
Technically speaking, children from large families tend to consume fewer resources (and thus learn to consume fewer resources as adults) than children from smaller families. Kind of like how if everyone in the world lived like NYC dwellers, the entire population of the world could fit into Texas. Now, not everyone wants to live like New Yorkers, and that’s fine – but New Yorkers are not more wasteful as citizens just because there are more of them – they are less wasteful, on average, specifically because there are more of them. If you are worried about people’s kids polluting your world you might want to turn your anger to the ones whose kids each have their own bedrooms, their own TVs, and, later on, their own cars.
It doesn’t sound like you’ve met many homeschooled children.
Loki, my kids home-school. They have ‘social skills’ far greater then you have shown on this thread. In fact you present yourself as quite lacking in any kind of social skills/etiquette. Maybe you could share with us the schooling that molded you into the egotistical ass you are today.
I am sorry for feeding the troll. Loki is here for one reason. To derail the thread.
Loki,
My people know all about you. By “go to university” I take it you’re in Canada now. There’s plenty of room for more Duggars up there.
Kel: LOL, you must not have common sense. I was talking about their lack of social skills, not success or intellect.
That’s a very interesting comeback, Loki. Are you insinuating that social skills are more important than success or intellect? Or perhaps that the people on the list are/were socially maladjusted?
I’m guessing you don’t know many homeschooled children or families. Did you know they actually are active in their communities? *gasp* Shocking, I know.
It’s got to be sad walking around believing everyone around you is “polluting the earth.” No social maladjustment there. /sarc
One of my cousins was homeschooled. She played sports and was in clubs with the children from our local high school. She graduated with high honors, got a fully-paid scholarship to university, and graduated top of her class THERE, too. Today she is a successful medical professional with several well-adjusted children, and a loving husband.
Loki,
I am sorry you are filled with such hatred and disdain for others “choices.”
20 abortions for Michelle would have been so much better, eh?
I feel for the Duggars and pray that the good Lord above allow them to have 1 more child. I lost my 1st By miscarraige and my 3 due to non-immune hydrops fetallis. She only lived about 15 minuets after she was born But I was only 5 or 6 months along when she was born and she weighed 12 pounds 13 ounces. So I wish them well and pray they have 1 more child My last child was born at home all by myself not even knowing I was in labor And my second and last one are both all grown up