Lunch Break: Girl Scout calls for cookie boycott
by LauraLoo
It’s almost that time of year when those DELICIOUS Girl Scout Cookies will be on sale! (Thin mint patties are my favorite!) However, one Girl Scout is hoping there will be a boycott.
From The Blaze:
A California teen is calling for a Girl Scout cookie boycott after the organization accepted a transgender child to a Colorado troop in October.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD41W5mIWmY[/youtube]
Should there be a boycott for this reason? And if you are a regular purchaser of Girl Scout Cookies, will you boycott when asked to make a purchase?
Email LauraLoo with your Lunch Break suggestions.
[HT: Hans Johnson]
Jan.23, 2012 12:00 pm |
Video of the day |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I wouldn’t boycott them for that reason, no.
I would boycott because of their dealings with Planned Parenthood.
Those cookies cost too much anyway.
I’m with you two.
I wouldn’t boycott because of a transgender child, that’s pretty vicious.
this is a tough one… because there is a lot of disordered leadership at the top, but a total boycott hurts the local neighborhood troop.
Here’s my policy: If a Girl Scout asks me to buy some cookies, I am enthusiastic about purchasing some Thin Mints and a box of those decadent caramel/coconut Samoans (under whatever politically correct name they have this year).
If a Girl Scout’s parent sets out a sign-up order sheet at work, I don’t buy. I look for a chance to talk to the parent about the PP connection…. and remind them that even the Boy Scouts have broken ties with GS, encouraging membership with Heritage Girls instead.
Yeah, not because of a transgirl. I’m boycotting because of the connection to Planned Parenthood.
Nah, not boycotting over this.
When I was a Girl Scout there was a boy in my grade who said he wished he could join as well. That always made me a little sad. My town had Boy Scouts too but he was not friends with many of the boys – most of his friends were girls.
It all reminds me a bit of the [hilarious] Parks & Recreation episode about the Pawnee Goddesses.
I am enthusiastic about purchasing some Thin Mints and a box of those decadent caramel/coconut Samoans (under whatever politically correct name they have this year).
Del – if they had to change the name of ‘Samoas’ because some Samoans were complaining, well, I’d think that was nuts. Did something like that happen?
I know that some GS cookies, at least regionally, are now being made by different bakeries – in order to save money – and if the new bakeries aren’t licensed to make a certain named cookie, that’s why the change.
I’m boycotting because Jack wanted to force 8439 women to have his babies. ;)
I don’t think they changed the name, Doug. Or if they did, it’s not for PC reasons. I know that the names vary by region, depending on the company that actually makes the cookies, I believe. When and where I was a kid the Samoas we sold were known as Caramel Delights. We also sold Shortbreads, Peanut Butter Patties, and other somewhat generically-named cookies, instead of Tagalogs or whatever. Years later I was shocked – shocked! – to encounter Girl Scouts who had entirely different cookie-name memories.
Thin Mints, I believe, are the only ones that have the same name everywhere.
Mmmm. The peanut butter ones are sooooo good. But too expensive. I can get way more cookies at Walmart for a 1.50. And they taste just like the Girl scout ones!
But the main reason I won’t buy is that they have dealings with Planned Parenthood. I choose not to funnel my money to PP.
Unfortunately, *any* support for Girl Scouts is a support for the GSUSA administration and it’s anti-life policies.
Boycott the cookies and send a message to the GS leadership.
My daughters sold GS cookies in the past (I sold nearly 100 boxes at my office alone last year), but we are not doing so this year. In fact, we are seriously considering, along with the troop leader and her daughters, whether or not to continue participation in the Girl Scouts or move to Heritage Scouts. It is not because of the “transgendered” debacle in Colorado. It is the overall, fundamental support of the GSUSA and GS International leadership for the advancement of causes that do not help girls at all but instead work to undermine the foundations of society. The boy in Colorado is simply a sign of the rot that has been allowed to fester in GS for too long.
After long discussions with the troop leader, we stayed with the Girl Scouts this year because the troop leader is actively lobbying for the local GS council to change and to pressure the national council to do the same. Do we expect immediate results? No, but the GS did not become problematic overnight. However, if the regional GS councils continue to reduce the latitude troop leaders have in running local troops, and mandate issues to be taught under the false title of “girls’ rights”, we will quickly be leaving the GS.
Just one parents’ $.02
No, I certainly would not boycott for that reason, however I’m with the others, I would because of their ties w/ PP. Yeah, I was a GS as a kid, started out as a Daisy in first grade (& my Mom was our troop leader that year, I can remember making paper) & went until I transferred from a parochial (sp?) to a public school in 5th grade (where unfortuantly there wasn’t a troop & I fell out of it.) But anyways, Dollar General carries boxed generic cookies, in varities similar to GS cookies at half the price.
Lol, Doug. It’s all part of my plan for world domination. :)
I don’t buy GS cookies because of their ties to PP.
I also don’t get why this mom is pushing to get her son into GS. The mom refers to Bobby as a he because he is a boy. Pushing him to join GS and then being willing to put him all over the news is exploitative and abusive in my book. Some boys like to play with what were traditionally girl toys and vice-versa. I climbed trees and played cops/robbers. No big deal. Mom would have a legit gripe if the Boy Scouts didn’t allow him in because Bobby IS A BOY.
Originally the GS said he could not join but it doesn’t surprise me they backed down and admitted a boy to an all girls club. After all, they don’t want to step on any politically-correct toes.
If Bobby wasn’t confused before, he sure the heck is now. There are many other groups and clubs for children that aren’t separated by gender that mom could put him in. Where is dad?
I know, I know the libs will accuse me of hating confused children.
His mother isn’t pushing him to join GS. He identifies as a girl, and wanted to join for a long time. I don’t want to get into a gender debate, but pushing him to join isn’t really going on.
Also, the Denver troop is the one who originally said no. The national organization never said no, was upset that Denver said no, and told them to reverse their ruling. The national organization supports the rights of transgenders.
I can’t see myself getting upset if a boy who identifies as a girl joined an all-girl organization that my daughter was a part of. I have seen the utterly horrible way transgenders are treated, I would be happy to accept them and treat them with love and acceptance.
I, too, am boycotting due to ties to Planned Parenthood. Makes me wonder what other organizations are also linked with PP…
Now I just have to find a Thin Mints alternative.
I absolutely love Tagalongs and Samoas! Can’t wait for cookie season this year!
He identifies as a girl, Too bad, so sad. His junk and DNA identify him as a boy, so that’s what he is. Wish in one hand, spit in the other, and see which one gets full first. I happen to identify as a majestic wyvern, soaring over the countryside. NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TELL ME I CAN’T FLY, OR ELSE THEY ARE VIOLATING MY CIVIL RIGHTS!!! HATESPEECH!!!! INTOLERANCE!!! Maybe “transgendereds” (it’s actually a mental illness called gender identity disorder) can hang out with Chloe Jennings-White, another sufferer of mental illness who actually wants to have surgery to transect her spinal cord, so that she can really be a paraplegic, since that makes her feel “whole”. She has a slightly different psychological (and possibly neurological) disorder called Body Integrity Identity Disorder. Only, instead of feeling a compulsion to have her genitals mutilated so she can play flesh-and-bone dress-up, she just wants to maim herself. Noticing a trend here? When people THINK something about themselves that is not so, it is a DISORDER. Real life is not make-believe and the rest of the world should not be made to conform to the idealizations of the insane. Attempting to tamper with the facts of the natural world is a dangerous path to tread, and I will not be a party to it.
Needless to say, between this and Planned Parenthood, yeah. I’m not buyin’. Nor will my daughter ever be enrolled in the scouts program.
“He identifies as a girl, and wanted to join for a long time.”
He’s seven so he couldn’t have wanted to join for that long. He has a sister who joined which probably had a large part to do with his wanting to. Maybe he doesn’t get told no often. I wanted to join my brother’s baseball team when I was little, too. Does this mean I was transgender? Maybe I still am? I sometimes wear jeans and work boots, too.
Bobby’s mother took him to sign up for GS. He did not drive there himself. In an interview, Bobby says, “This hurts me and my mom both.” It is apparent that Bobby strongly identifies with his mother’s emotions. Again, where is dad?
When I was nine, I identified with my older brother and wanted to stay out all night shooting raccoons with him and his friends but was told no. When I was seven, I identified with Mary Poppins but was not allowed to jump off the roof with an umbrella. Poor me. When I was fourteen, I identified with Madonna but was not allowed to wear a leather mini, spikes and fishnet stocking to Mass. Dang, I was teed off (still kinda am about that one!) :)
The Girl Scouts ties with PP causes me to question all of their policies.
“I would be happy to accept them and treat them with love and acceptance.”
Yup. There is is. Do you believe that anyone who opposes boys joining girls clubs and vice-versa do not love and acceptance them, Jack?
“Too bad, so sad. His junk and DNA identify him as a boy, so that’s what he is. Wish in one hand, spit in the other, and see which one gets full first.”
Except that sometimes it doesn’t… some “boys” actually have XXY chromosomes, some individuals are intersexed. We don’t actually know. And even if he does have a biologically male body that doesn’t prescribe his actions. I don’t see anyone looking for a sex change for him, he simply wants to live as a girl. And I could personally care less. That’s up to him and his family.
But regardless, we tamper with nature quite often, so I am never to convinced by “don’t mess with nature!!” arguments.
But I am a hundred bazillion percent sure I will never convince anyone on this blog of the legitimacy of genderqueer people.
Praxedes, I do not think all that oppose his inclusion necessarily do not love or accept the transgender community. I have just seen the exclusion lead to shunning, the shunning lead to bullying, the bullying lead to abuse, etc, etc. Like, almost every single transgendered or gay street kid I ever met was either kicked out by their parents, or had to run away from absolutely vicious bullying at school or in their neighborhood. The way these people are treated are absolutely horrendous. I can’t stand it. I don’t think that you, personally, would treat this child like that. From what I have seen you are a loving person. I just think that people who would boycott the organization over a child living in a way they think is wrong is worrying.
Michael, thank you for your argument. You make a lot of sense. No cookies this year, which fits in nice to the 30lbs Im in the process of losing! I am a former GS and sold many a box in the 70s. Will not buy, as long as they are in bed with PP. NO WAY.
Jack-
genetically intersexed is not the same as transgendered. I’ll believe he’s intersexed when I see the genetic test proving it. Until then, he’s just someone with a mental problem trying to get the world to be just as insane as he is. I will not do it.
I don’t see anyone looking for a sex change for him, he simply wants to live as a girl. Yeah, no harm done…right? Until he gets old enough for adult relationships and ends up pissing off the wrong hetero dude who he lures into thinking he’s a woman-VIOLATING THAT MAN SEXUALLY, imo. Then he’ll end up dead and in a dumpster like hundreds of other boys who thought it would be fun to play dress up and trick other dudes into a sexual relationship with them.
But regardless, we tamper with nature quite often, so I am never to convinced by “don’t mess with nature!!” arguments.
I’m not saying that. They are free to mutilate themselves however they see fit. It’s their body. But what they ARE NOT free to do is change the simple facts of reality. Someone born with XY and a penis/testicles ARE NOT women, no matter how very much they might WANT things to be otherwise, and no matter how far they take the charade through surgeries to mutilate themselves. People are entitled to their own opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts. Empirical facts are the basis of civilization. It is the Pro-Legal-Abortionist notion of denying the biological and genetic facts and reality of the unborn that has us wading hip-high through legally-spilled blood of our children.
These boys need REAL mental help so that they can love and accept THEMSELVES instead of some make-believe non-existent personality they wish they were that they will not and cannot ever be.
Until he gets old enough for adult relationships and ends up pissing off the wrong hetero dude who he lures into thinking he’s a woman-VIOLATING THAT MAN SEXUALLY, imo. Then he’ll end up dead and in a dumpster like hundreds of other boys who thought it would be fun to play dress up and trick other dudes into a sexual relationship with them.
I can not believe that you–you, of all people–said this. If someone finds out that the person their significant other is trans when they thought they weren’t, and then kills them for it, the fault lies with the murderer, not the transperson. It isn’t okay to kill someone just because their genitals aren’t the shape you thought they were. Even if this information puts you off of sex with them. Also, talk about a worst case scenario. “If this transgirl is found out as trans by a man she’s dating, he will instantly murder her! This is the only possible outcome!”
Come on now, xalisae. You are much smarter than this.
It isn’t okay to kill someone just because their genitals aren’t the shape you thought they were. Except that there is no such thing as, “Whups! Not the sex I thought I was having/gonna have. OH WELLS! Teehee, you lovable little scamp!”
No. When you come to find you are not having sex w/the person you thought you were, YOU ARE BEING RAPED, BECAUSE YOU DID NOT CONSENT TO THAT.
Lots of things happen during the course of a rape. Sometimes people get hurt. Sometimes it’s the person being raped. Sometimes it’s the rapist.
Sorry if I don’t have the warm fuzzies for rapists, just because they happen to get assaulted during/after their rape of someone.
I would not boycott them because of a transgender child. I already ordered $20 worth of cookies from the girl next door. (There was much wailing and rending of garments when the kids realized I got only 1 box of samoas.)
And again, you’re cooking up a worst case scenario. It is highly unlikely for all sorts of obvious reasons that someone wouldn’t realize they were considering sex with a transperson until they were actually in the middle of coitus. At the very least, they’ll probably figure it out when the underwear comes off. Is it the responsibility of a transperson to tell their partner prior to sex? Yes, absolutely. Is it wrong to trick someone into sex under false pretenses? Yes, obviously. No one is going to dispute this. That still doesn’t make it okay to murder someone because they aren’t who you thought they were. Nor is murder the go-to response of the general population, even when facing someone who has lied to them in a very huge way. Certainly they would be justified in dismissing someone who had lied about something so important from their life. Murder is a fair ways beyond that, though.
Look, I actually agree with you to an extent about transgenderism. I don’t think it really exists. I think it is a response to genuine inequality in how one society or another treats men or women and that the transperson, convinced society can’t be wrong, decides that they must be. However, despite your rather fantastic and highly unlikely hypothetical scenarios (this girl is seven; we may hope she will remain celibate for at least seven more years, if not ten or more), transpeople aren’t hurting you or me or anyone. This issue isn’t important to me and it is important to them. And while certainly a trans lifestyle is not Biblically defensible, it is unreasonable and stupid to expect people who are not religious to behave as if they are. So I have no problem being the one that yields, generally speaking. Someone wants to wear women’s clothes and have me use female pronouns for them? Fine, whatever. It isn’t hurting anyone for me to do that. Nor is the scenario you suggest anything like the “general case” for transpeople. You can not argue that, since in one hideously specific and highly unlikely scenario a transperson could commit a horrible wrong, we should refuse to tolerate the vast majority of transpeople who would be sick at the thought of tricking someone into sex they did not consent to.
I hope this doesn’t get blocked, because this is one of the funniest things I’ve seen. From SNL on girl scout cookies:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/144704/saturday-night-live-update-john-mulaney
I didn’t know about the GS/PP connection. LL
I don’t buy GS cookies or otherwise support them in any fashion for several reasons; PP and the transgender boy thing are among those reasons. I was a GS as a kid, briefly, and I gotta say – pretty disgusted with the things they are teaching these days. Totally bought into the whole liberal, PC viewpoint and I highly disagree with all of it. I don’t know if they still have them but a few yrs ago they had “pagan patches” (can’t remember what they called them officially).
If our daughter wants to do scouting then I’ll be glad to put her in American Heritage Girls (they are incidentally officially affiliated with the BSA now, by the way – awesome!).
I haven’t bought GS cookies in a long time due to the PP link and recently we were given a box of the peanut butter sandwich cookies (DH’s unit hands them out sometimes to the Soldiers). They are disgusting… they dont’ even taste like peanut butter and they’re hard as a rock like they’re stale (but they’re far from expired). They also have a wierd off-flavor… I have no idea what they’ve done to those cookies but they sure are different than they used to be. Back to Nature brand peanut butter sandwich cookies are way better ($2.50ish a box at Wally World). They are a bit of a pain but if I get to wanting Samoas bad enough I can make them myself. It’s pretty much just a shortbread cookie coated in caramel, unsweetened coconut, and dipped/drizzled in chocolate. Yum. :-)
Oh, you mean the dudes who buy teenagers and then beat the crap out of them when they find out they are trans? Yeah, I don’t feel too bad about them either.
Sorry, Jack, but the majority of cases I’ve seen have been boys pretending to be girls, luring a dude out to the parking lot for a handy or a bj in exchange for some money, and then them getting found out. I have very little sympathy for them, because yeah, they raped someone and technically stole from them as well. /shrug
How many transpeople do you know?
this girl is seven; we may hope she will remain celibate for at least seven more years, if not ten or more
This BOY is sven, we may hope HE will remain celibate for at least seven more years, if not ten or more.
HE. HIM. BOY.
I’m too old for playing make-believe. After a certain age, that kind of behavior is insanity and I’ll not indulge the insane. It’s time to stop letting the inmates run the friggin’ asylum.
None. I don’t think they’d like me too much if we met anyway. But I have read at least a few stories of these people getting beaten because they raped some dude, then everyone wringing their hands and saying, “Oh, that poor GIRL!”
I’m tired of living in Crazytown. I’m tired of the inmates running the asylum. It’s time to restore order and demand that facts stop being treated as optional acknowledgements.
My brother has a mental illness. We didn’t, instead of getting him treatment, say, “Well…Bub…you might be right…We all might REALLY be planning to kill you…” We got him help. Playing along with this nonsense isn’t help.
So you have read a few stories, of isolated cases. I have personally met tons of these kids, they flock to Miami to escape the lovely southern states and their way of “fixing them”. You know, by beatings and torment, taunting and cruelty. A lot of them get kicked out from their homes. They are treated worse than gay people. And a tiny fraction go around tricking people into having sex with them. You know how I feel about sexual assault, you really think I would be defending people if I thought that they were generally rapists?
“Then he’ll end up dead and in a dumpster like hundreds of other boys who thought it would be fun to play dress up and trick other dudes into a sexual relationship with them.”
Oh God, it’s just like in “Boys Don’t Cry.” I bet you’re just like the mom who stood by while her sons violently tried to “correct” the evil, perverted transman. This is the #prolife I’ve come to know and love!
I am boycotting them for all of the wrong that they do. I agree with Xalisae.
Oh yeah, Megan, I forgot about the “corrective rape” aspect of “curing” female to male trans, or punishing male to females. *shudder*. I don’t see how anyone can think that’s okay.
X – I had ordered 5 boxes of cookies already. Then I read your ridiculous posts about trans people, checked with my fiance, and called our friends back to order 10 more boxes from our friends daughter in your honor. Doubt we’ll be able to eat that many, so we’ll drop some off at the soup kitchen in town.
Thank you for that entire comment, Alice. You summed up my feelings perfectly.
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i was a brownie and a girl scout many many moons ago. always liked their cookies but i did not know about a link to PP. luckily i havent seen them around for a while cuz im a sucker for kids who smile when they get a sale. i cant do it just like i said no to a susan komen cookie and candy sale 2 years ago. but those were adults and i could explain why;/
As someone who also knows several transpeople, xalisae, I also find your assessment of the transgender community to be skewed and incorrect. I have never known any of these folks to be the horrible monsters you make them out to be. They’re people. Human beings.
Look, you’re usually fairly snarky, but reasonable overall. Has a transperson been putting cockroaches in your shoes or something? Honestly, this is not the reaction I expected from you.
Alice,
We absolutely have an obligation to treat all people with respect (people suffering from gender identity disorder included!!), but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it isn’t hurting anyone to indulge the disorder. You hurt the person when you agree to pretend with them. It hurts society when people do this en masse, mistaking complacency for compassion. It clouds the truth and separates us from reality, forcing us all to live in a world of lies. It feels like the nice thing to do, but authentic love for another does not include enabling behaviors that are harmful just b/c it’s easier.
And, like others here, I have boycotted GS for years b/c of their ties w/ PP.
I’m with X. Show me a genetic test. Until then, I don’t care to pretend along.
And I’m really not okay with a man who wishes to identify as a woman coming into womens bathrooms, dressing rooms, etc.
For those of you who choose to accept whatever people want to be, how does that help them embrace who they really are?
because these people have been failed by people reacting incorrectly to their mental illness is not an excuse to capitulate to it. That wrongs them as well, only in the opposite direction. Although I think assuming that I think we should round up people with gender identity disorder and have them executed en masse is funny, you guys. Really.
Wow. I’m not phased when people who engage in dangerous and risky behaviors meet with disaster! How shocking. I must be pure evil! Drunk drivers do not occupy that warm a place in my heart, either. Even if they are alcoholics because they were abused earlier in their lives. Too bad, so sad. They were engaging in risky behavior, and something happened to them because of it. Such is life.
Give me a flipping break.
When I mentioned my brother’s mental illness, did I ever say “So then we gathered around and decided we’d just go ahead and BEAT IT OUT OF HIM! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!” No. I didn’t. I said we worked very hard to get him into counseling, and now he goes there, and is on medication for his ILLNESS. Just as these people have an ILLNESS, and don’t need friends for a play-date, but need real professionals who will help them break out of their delusion instead of suffering trapped within it.
They don’t deserve to be killed. It’s unfortunate some of them rape other people and end up suffering themselves because of it, but it’s not surprising to me, and I’ll not pretend to you all that I am shocked by it just like I will not pretend to them they are something they are not. I deal in facts and definitive values, because the mind can play tricks on you quite easily. But just as they don’t deserve harm simply because they are mentally ill, they also don’t deserve enablers turning their mental illness into a medical industry taking advantage of confused and ill people and mutilating them irreparably forever. And every time you indulge them with their “her” instead of “his”, or “transgender male” instead of “woman”, you just keep on feeding that industry exploiting the mentally ill. FEEL PROUD, YOU GUYS!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-02-24-transgender-penner_N.htm
Also, I have no problem with G/L’s. They don’t piss down my leg and try to tell me it’s raining. They don’t try to convince me that the noonday sky on a clear day is actually neon green, and the feathered animals that nest in trees are actually fish. I don’t understand them, but more power to ’em.
“(this girl is seven; we may hope she will remain celibate for at least seven more years, if not ten or more)”
I agree X. This BOY is seven. This boy and his family should be in counseling. I have known a few people with this disorder. I absolutely DO NOT condone bullying of anyone but I also don’t think people should feed into this insanity either.
The trans people I know come from very dysfunctional families, are quite angry, depressed, anxious and manipulative. It was found out that one of them was making himself throw up so he could be sent home to spend time with his mom. He didn’t care where he puked or who had to clean it up. Yes, these young people and their families need help but this help shouldn’t include enabling their disorder.
Who of you would be okay with dating and falling in love with someone that they were led to believe was the opposite gender? THIS is a form of bullying.
If an underweight child is refused entrance into a camp for overweight kids, I suppose we should be fighting for his right to join, too. On that note, from what I’ve seen, overweight children get bullied way more than any of the other groups.
“I have personally met tons of these kids, they flock to Miami to escape the lovely southern states and their way of “fixing them”. ”
Couldn’t be that they are running away from abusive, dysfunctional homes, could it?
And honestly…even insinuating that I would condone something like rape…Grow up. Seriously.
Like I stated earlier if you don’t condone these behaviors, you are a hater. It’s even come down to insinuating that if you disagree you now condone the murder and rape of trans.
GET REAL.
I don’t think you would condone something like rape, Xalisae. I do think that the attitude that people exhibit towards transgendered people fosters an attitude in our culture that excuses the abuses of them. I have seen plenty of it. I have seen cops blow off the trans street kids because they “asked” for their beatings by being different. It’s hideous. I don’t like the train of thought that puts people in a box with very limited experiences with them and makes assumptions about them. It’s dangerous thinking.
Praxedes, sure, some of them were in abusive situations. One of my male to female friends was beaten horrifically by his father for dressing in his mother’s skirt when he was five. Even more were simply kicked out when they came out to their strict and unaccepting parents. Their straight and cis siblings still live at home in a lot of cases.
I don’t think anyone has to accept if you don’t wish to. I do think that they are human beings that don’t deserve to be stereotyped, discriminated against, and treated like they are.
And btw, isn’t the GSA a private organization? Correct me if I am wrong, I am not completely sure. Weren’t gays and atheists trying to be included in the BSA, but the courts upheld their right to keep them out? But the freedom doesn’t work the other way?
I think they need help, Jack. I think they need mental help and counseling when they first start exhibiting signs that they might be having delusions that they are a different gender than they actually are. I think that if parents had a better relationship with their kids, they’d probably be able to see that train coming from a mile away, and would be able to better instruct their kid about gender and gender differences and alleviate the confusion before it even begins. I also think that the reaction that kid’s dad had to discovering his son was dressing in his mother’s skirts is a perfect example of what Prax was saying when she said these kids are coming from abusive situations all-around that probably contribute to their mental problems. It’s a “chicken, or egg?” situation.
“I do think that they are human beings that don’t deserve to be stereotyped, discriminated against, and treated like they are.”
Absolutely, they are human beings. Who here would say differently? Who here are you insinuating thinks they should be stereotyped, discriminated against and treated like they are?
Alcoholics and drug abusers are humans too but I don’t have to condone their lifestyles and choices. People take advantage of and hurt them as well and this I STRONGLY OPPOSE but I refuse to enable their behaviors and choices.
Who here believes that those with mental disorders should be abused by family, police or anyone else? To say nothing of murdered and raped? I predicted that those of us who oppose a BOY being let in to a GIRLS club would be considered intolerant. And we have been. How very tolerant of differing views.
I do not believe not allowing a boy into a girls only group is discrimination any more than I believe not allowing a thin kid into a group for heavy kids is discriminating.
Bobby is not a healthy little girl. He is a hurting little boy.
Even if you consider it a disorder, how to you suggest curing it? http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html It’s new research but it gives some biological basis for transsexualism. More research needs to be done. But if this is repeated what do you think should be done with them? Insist on calling them the gender that their brains don’t match and making them miserable? Fact is it hasn’t been studied enough and I don’t feel like making people miserable based on some opinion I had.
” Absolutely, they are human beings. Who here would say differently? Who here are you insinuating thinks they should be stereotyped, discriminated against and treated like they are?”
Well, Xalisae has seemed to generalized some stories she has read about a few transsexuals. I find that offensive, because I have only met a couple transpeople who have ever “tricked” anyone with their gender, and that was when they were about 14 or 15 and hooking. I think people have this idea about how trans are supposed to act and they don’t really ever research it or go meet people and realize that they are really no different than any of us.
Like I said you can disagree all you want with their “behavior”. Just as I have the right to disagree with you. Tolerance doesn’t mean I have to agree with whatever you say, it does mean that I wouldn’t want you restricted from saying it.
jack-
our brain wiring is a result of stimuli. If it was something set in stone, trying to rehabilitate people after a traumatic brain injury, help people struggling with drug addiction, or treat a number of other mental illnesses would be in vain right out of the gate.
Giving them stimuli to help repair their brain wiring so that they can appreciate the gender they ARE is what will help. Not reinforcing the malfunction and helping to make sure they’re miserable their whole lives because they’re living a lie.
my posts have links. They’re getting eaten.
I think xalisae is blunt but right as usual. Jack, we’ve read of more than one “trans” hooker ending up in a dumpster. It doesn’t take a leap of logic to figure out what probably happened.
And since they consider themselves the opposite gender, do you think they usually tell someone, “By the way, before we go any farther, I should tell you that while I consider myself to be female, I’m biologically male.”?
Sorry, this is just wrong on the part of the Girl Scouts. Next you’ll tell me someone who thinks he’s Napoleon can join the Peace Corps. He might want to invade some country! (Okay, that was going a little too far.)
I work in the arts and know lots of sexually confused people, to put it mildly. I can love them, work with them, eat wth them, sing with them, all without having to enter into any delusions about not being the sex they biologically are.
When I am asked, I’m honest about it. I don’t yell at anyone. I don’t bully. I ask in return not to be emotionally manipulated into feeling/ reacting however someone else does.
Honestly, I think a lot of people go along with the trans idea because they don’t want to hurt people’s feelings. I don’t seek to hurt feelings, but I don’t think it’s healthy for me or people who consider themselves trans for me to pretend, to go along with what is most always a mental/ emotional delusion. I would go so far to say it’s not kind.
It’s similar to having a friend with anorexia who thinks she’s fat, when clearly she is way underweight. Do I affirm her feelings about herself, when I can plainly see it’s not true? No. That doesn’t mean I’m in her face, nagging or berating her. But when she brrings it up, I don’t go along with it.
Just because you haven’t seen transgenders being bullied and hurt for no other reason than being different doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. And I find victim-blaming honestly horrendous.
Yes, they do usually have that conversation. Whether you believe it or not most transgenders are not sneaky jerks who run around trying to trick innocent straight men into sleeping with them. I have been hit on by pre-ops, they are generally open with who they are if they are interested in a relationship. All I have to say is “Sorry, not interested.”
The GSA can do what they want. Boycott them if you don’t like it, that’s your right. Again, why is everyone complaining about their decision, when the BSA’s decision to deny gays and atheists room in the org was upheld? Are we only supporting the right to deny or grant membership into private organizations if we agree with it?
Jack,
I don’t think xalisae’s point was that such a dangerous scenario will happen. Only that it could. And of course it’s not anything we want to happen. We’re not blaming the victims, only warning them.
The Girl Scouts are free to do what they want. We’re free to take our business elsewhere.
I like thin mints with a cold glass of milk. But I can settle for Peppermint Patties. (And don’t go there with the character in Peanuts. I think she’s just a tomboy! :) )
Look, you’re usually fairly snarky, but reasonable overall.
Thank you for that assessment, Alice. I like to think it is correct. That is why when someone asks me to do something unreasonable, like say, pretend that a bunch of women are men and vice-versa, I freak out because that is an unreasonable demand being placed on me as an adult in a functioning society with fun things like “facts” and “science” that we use to keep things in order. Furthermore, when I see society as a whole completely throwing those things like “facts” and “science” out the window to play along with people who believe things that are very clearly not so (traditionally known as “being insane”), I continue to speak out as the voice of reason for the rest of the world who I can only guess have lost their friggin’ minds.
Welcome to a large part of the reason I never got my portfolio together and went to art school in San Francisco like my Art professor was trying to get me to do. Those kinds of people are the antithesis of everything for which I stand. Trusting feelings is asking for insanity. Your brain can and will lie to you. Give me facts, cold hard facts, or nothing at all. PROVE it to me, because what you think means nothing. Same reason I can’t understand using the “sentience” measure for what constitutes a “person”. That crap can’t be proven, there are varying degrees, and even if some people DO posses it or a degree of it, it can be flawed, imperfect, or just plain broken. It seems so arbitrary and nonsensical. The touchy-feelies give me the heebie-jeebies.
they are generally open with who they are if they are interested in a relationship.
The news articles I read were not “relationships”. They were one-time bar parking lot hook-ups for oral, and there was no disclosure whatsoever. So…there’s that.
Great analogy to your anorexic friend, Mary Ann.
The Girl Scouts’ ties to PP alone should make any prolifer question their mentality, decisions and motives.
Maybe they should drop the word ‘Girl’ and just go with The Scouts. Why not? Girls are disappearing around the world anyway.
@CT: While you have a point, to a degree, I’m afraid that when someone who is only hurting themself does something that does not violate anyone else’s rights and will not end in anything more harmful than them having a desire that can not be fulfilled, then–even though I think it’s really weird–the admonishment that I ought to step in in every case and tell them my thoughts on the matter, whether they want those thoughts or not, is essentially urging busybodying. If a transperson were to ask me, to my face, what I thought, of course I would tell them the truth. On the other hand, given that they are violating the rights of no one to behave as they do, unless invited to do so, their choice to live as man or woman is none of my business. No matter how much it may harm them. People have a right to be wrong.
Well, my husband and I can’t really afford them right now anyway, but due to GSUSA’s close ties to Planned Parenthood, I will not only never buy from them, but also tell others about their disturbing connections with the abortion giant.
As to the trans thing…. If the boy wants to live as a girl and his parents want to reinforce that, okay, whatever. But the national organization allowing him to join seems a little bit disturbing to me. I wouldn’t boycott over it, but it makes me uneasy.
I wouldn’t boycott GS cookies over the transgender issue, but I wouldn’t be happy if I had a daughter in that troop. Camping and overnight trips are part of the scouting experience. I would not want my daughter in a cabin with a boy, even if he felt more comfortable living as a girl.
I do boycott GS cookies over their ties to PP.
“…to hurt feelings, but I don’t think it’s healthy for me or people who consider themselves trans for me to pretend, to go along with what is most always a mental/ emotional delusion.”
Gender is hardly a fixed identify. The world hasn’t imploded because women are allowed to serve in the military and some fathers decide to be stay-at-home dads. Likewise, we modify our bodies all the time. Female distance athletes are often very, very tiny, but we wouldn’t say they’re half-woman because they don’t have big breasts. Honestly, who cares? This isn’t about YOU.
“I would not want my daughter in a cabin with a boy, even if he felt more comfortable living as a girl.”
…meanwhile, the good little hetero, cis-gender girls are “playing doctor” after lights out. Whoops!
Megan,
Gender is a fixed identity but it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a spectrum. My husband loves holding babies, and doesn’t enjoy watching professional sports… But is he gender confused? Definitely not. When I was a little girl, I was always playing outside with the boys, I always identified with the male characters in books and movies, hated dresses and bows and I was more interested in exploring outside than dolls. Was I gender confused? No. There’s something called individuality. But it can all happen within the boundaries of someones gender.
The world hasn’t imploded because women are allowed to serve in the military and some fathers decide to be stay-at-home dads. Except that no one here has said anything about women being allowed to take on what have been traditionally male roles, and vice-versa. Whoops! I’ve ALWAYS been VERY tomboy. ALWAYS and VERY. But as much as I thought it would’ve been great to not have to deal with all the b.s. I do as a woman, once again, too bad-so sad, that’s not how it worked out for me. I never really understood girls, and didn’t (still really don’t) care to. I just decided to make the most of being a tomboy, enjoying my tomboyishness to a degree that actually freaked out Army recruiter’s in high school (“You scored higher in mechanical reasoning than most boys in your class. That. NEVER. happens.”), but I wasn’t about to make-believe I was something I was not just because I felt more comfortable catching snakes, climbing trees, and repairing my bicycle than playing with dolls and putting on make-up. I wasn’t about to espouse some delusion and try to FORCE The rest of the world to conform to ME just because I didn’t like the hand I was dealt. But you guys enjoy your Mad Hatter’s Tea Party. CLEAN CUP!
Amen, X! I was the same way. But never did it occur to me that I could force the world to say I was a boy. I am a girl and that’s that. My parents didn’t let me think otherwise. My friends didn’t let me think otherwise. And I learned to deal with being rather an anomaly… but still very happy to be a woman. Who married a man. I think this transgender stuff is really about people not being willing to accept reality.
So? The world accommodated your tomboyishness, when a few decades earlier, it would have been an outright scandal, a sign of certain disorder. Society just keeps redrawing lines in the sand. Despite protests to the contrary, your life will not end if a dude puts on a wig and calls himself a lady. The sky will still be blue. The grass will still be green. So what?
“I wasn’t about to espouse some delusion and try to FORCE The rest of the world to conform to ME just because I didn’t like the hand I was dealt.”
Except…except…your ex-boyfriend was mean to you, and now you’re taking it out on other women by trying to restrict their ability to make life-changing decisions about their bodies. Is the sky in your world magenta?
(warning: profanity in linked image)
http://tinyurl.com/3awxbqy Except…except…you might not have been paying attention…or…maybe you’re PURPOSEFULLY IGNORING ME…but my ex-husband being “mean to me” has nothing to do with my Pro-Life stance-my daughter’s life does. So, this is you taking 2 unrelated things, combining them into a false premise, and then attempting to use that faulty premise to try and prop up a flimsy position that has nothing to do with that faulty premise in the first place.
But I still never got an answer to that on twitter the other day (you must hang out with these chicks, because this IS NOT a coincidence) to the question, “How exactly has what A MAN did to me make me angry at/hate/”take it out on” women?” I mean…don’t you think I’d be a man-hater, and want to “take it out on” men? You know…the group who had a member that was the one who actually hurt me?
So no, I live in the same world everyone else does, where men have XY chromosomes, women have XX, the sky is blue, and Megan introduces faulty premises because she doesn’t like the fact I didn’t have my daughter killed in an abortion and think all children like her should have their lives protected by law regardless of what their parents might think. A position that has nothing to do with “restrict[ing] their ability to make life-changing decisions about their bodies”, because THEIR bodies are not the ones killed in an abortion.
Yes, Megan, that was NOT. YOUR. BODY. you paid to have killed.
Wow. Just had to think about this a little more…
If anything, what you said just proves my point further! Rather than deny the scientific/biological/factual reality of my situation (being pregnant with my daughter-another living human being and my biological child), aborting, and pretending like all I did was have a cyst removed or something…
I acknowledged how things were, sucked it up, and got on with my life while proceeding to make the accommodations for HER life as best I could.
I guess I’ve just never really been too good at denying reality and playing pretend to edify people with mental disorders (gender identity disorder and psychopathy).
I’m with X on this one. Since when did we start pandering to drag queens? This is all part of the larger problem of victim feminism. They want to be in a protected class for their outrageous behavior. Why fund their lunacy? I’d question in this case who’s pushing this kid to bail on his gender, there’s obviously an adult influencing him. This blurring of the genders is getting out of hand, and its getting harder and harder to guess at the gender of some of these nutjobs. Radical feminists and their ‘gender equality’ b.s. have gone so far the other way…anyone thinking of the ‘Pat’ sketches on SNL? Did we ever find out if Pat was male or female? ‘Cis’ this. Meh.
Here’s a recent example of what I was getting at: radical feminist hiding her son’s gender, dressing him as a girl http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Hes-pretty-in-pink-to-make-you-think-20012012.htm
“the admonishment that I ought to step in in every case and tell them my thoughts on the matter, whether they want those thoughts or not, is essentially urging busybodying.”
I’m not urging busybodying. But you said it did no harm to participate in the delusion (ie. use incorrect pronouns to refer to a person in order to prop up their mental illness). I disagree strongly with that. It harms them, it harms society to participate in such a way. I’m not urging you to go up and initiate confrontations with people, but to voluntarily participate and encourage is wrong.
And I do think they are violating the rights of an entire gender of people to insist that boys with mental illnesses MUST be capitulated to and treated like girls and vice versa. People who feel that way are saying that there can be no gender specific clubs/bathrooms/etc. It precludes that when we have to accept someone else’s mental delusions as reality.
Jack – GS is certainly free to admit whomever they like (query whether they remain girl scouts at that point, but that’s really their problem). The only question asked here is whether we support the club for that decision. I would have a major problem if the government tried to force girl scouts to exclude this boy – it’s none of their business just as it was none of their business how the boy scouts ran their club.
”But it can all happen within the boundaries of someones gender. ”
This. I think it’s great boys play with dolls and girls climb trees. We need more nurturing men and confident women.
“Despite protests to the contrary, your life will not end if a dude puts on a wig and calls himself a lady.”
Who said they care if a dude puts on a wig and calls himself a lady? He can put on six wigs and call himself a spaceship for all I care. This won’t change the fact that he’s a mentally ill dude. However, should he be allowed in the locker rooms with the girls? Or into restrooms with the women?
Megan, neither Xalisae nor I could control that our ex’s were mean to us. We could only control whether or not we continued that cycle with others in our lives. Don’t hate on us because we refused to pass on the meanness dumped on us by aborting our children.
Who has been mean to you?
It DOES do harm-there’s a godless proggie behind this kid willing to exploit him to score cheap political points.
Since when did we start capitulating to political correctness? It’s what’s killiing this country! Soon we’ll be calling murderers ‘life impaired’ and child molesters ‘hormonally challenged.’ Start calling sin what it is-boldly and without fear. There are worse things than being unpopular because you stood for something.
Soon we’ll be calling murderers ‘life impaired’ and child molesters ‘hormonally challenged.’
Canada is right this very minute considering labeling pedophiles as “mentally disabled” so they can receive disability benefits from the government. Yep.
Exactly what I’m getting at, Kel. Patting these people on the head and offering “I’m ok you’re ok’ platitudes is only enabling their madness. If we want to end abortion in the US, we have to be willing to break the back of radical feminism and attack their ideology. We’re quickly going the way of Canada here, unless we stop it soon we will.
Amen, MPQ.
To quote some familiar rhetoric, “stop forcing your beliefs on us.”
Not reading through all these 85 comments – but I agree with what Kel posted on the first comment – I am boycotting them because they support abortion – and because they used to be a Christian organization but have denounced their history and have taken God out of their pledge.
I support gay rights and am in fact wearing a “Equality, the American Dream” shirt from Garden State Equality as I type and am going to a “Diva Show” tonight in Atlantic City with my mom – basically, a drag queen show.
Don’t boycott a company simply because you’re straight and are homophobic towards the LGBT community…
But feel free to boycott because they are contributing to murder.
Also – just skimmed through some things – you all really need to check your terminology.
There is a HUGE difference between a drag queen and being transgendered.
Don’t boycott a company simply because you’re straight and are homophobic towards the LGBT community…
Amber, I don’t think anyone here has a phobia of gays. If you want to talk about checking terminology, THAT term needs to be the first thing to go.
Right – ok, anyone here besides me and Jack support gay rights???
Because if you don’t support transgender/sexual rights, you probably don’t support gay rights either.
HENCE my using the term “LGBT” community in conjunction with homophobia – it is known as the “gay community” but it stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, TRANSGENDER.
There’s my checking my terminology for you.
I have ran a Gay-Straight Alliance for the past 7 years, I know all about the terminology.
So not wanting to share bathroms, clubs, dressing rooms with men who feel like they’re women is homophobic? Uh, no.
Pretty soon homophobic will be another code word for ‘you don’t agree with me’, kinda like hater. Starts to mean nothing. Sticks and stones… I’ve never bullied or hated such folks in my heart.
But people throw around judgmental terms like hater and homophobic without even blinking. I think that’s sad.
Amber, what I’m saying is, perhaps it’s a little rude to come to this thread about a transgendered child and accuse everyone of homophobia.
Which “rights,” specifically, do you believe those commenting here do not support for those in the LGBT community?
I agree with Mary Ann. Calling someone “homophobic” because they do not agree that two men or two women can have a “marriage” is hateful. It doesn’t help dialogue, that’s for sure.
And fyi, I gave my opinion at the top of this thread, so please don’t accuse me of being homophobic. Thanks.
they are not “men who think they are women” but it’s funny that your comment reminds me greatly of “separate but equal” bathrooms, etc. of the African American civil-rights movement.
Kel – I’m really just LOLing at your comment.
If you’d notice – I said I agreed with your comment.
Obviously many of the people commenting here to not support the right of a transgender girl to join the Girl Scouts – that’s clear.
And from other posts that I’ve seen in the past I know that many do not support equal marriage.
I wonder what else many disagree with?
Should there be laws in place to protect the LGBT community through hate crime laws? Most states do not have them.
How about work? Should LGBT Americans be able to work? Because in most states it’s ok for them to be fired simply for being gay or transgendered.
The list goes on and on.
Would love to hear everyone’s opinion.
Amber, you admitted you didn’t read through the comments, then you jumped to calling people homophobes.
Um… that’s just not true for everyone who doesn’t think like you on these issues.
And it makes you look like you bullied and called people names without even listening to what they have to say.
Wow. Amber just leapt on the scene, jumping to conclusions, and landed herself squarely in a hole.
If you will look up the thread, you will see my post stating: Also, I have no problem with G/L’s. They don’t piss down my leg and try to tell me it’s raining. They don’t try to convince me that the noonday sky on a clear day is actually neon green, and the feathered animals that nest in trees are actually fish. I don’t understand them, but more power to ‘em.
I support the rights of homosexuals to be able to have every institution accessable to them that is accessible to heterosexuals. I just don’t indulge men who think they are women in their delusion with “woman/women/her/hers”, etc. Nor women who think they are men. They have gender dysphoria disorder, and I’m not sicker or as sick as they are, so they ARE addressed with words like, “woman/women/her/hers”, etc.
Just because I don’t facilitate mental illness DOES NOT make me “homophobic”, but thanks for sharing your ignorance.
lol, ok Mary Ann.
I have read through them now – first I skimmed through, then went back and read.
I stand by what I said.
X – You know I rarely ever agree with you so I’m not even going to reply to half of what you said – just know I disagree.
But please oh PLEASE will you people look up what transgender IS. You’re so off mark.
Well, that’s the thing. You decided, just like people who decided gay people are mentally ill, that your opinions on their mental state should dictate how they are treated and how they should be addressed. I still have trouble understanding how it hurts any of you if someone identifies with a gender that their DNA doesn’t agree with. If some mtf transgender is in the bathroom stall next to you, who the heck is it hurting? There is seriously nothing I care less about than the gender of the people who share the bathroom with me, lol.
“Since when did we start capitulating to political correctness? It’s what’s killiing this country! Soon we’ll be calling murderers ‘life impaired’ and child molesters ‘hormonally challenged.’ Start calling sin what it is-boldly and without fear. There are worse things than being unpopular because you stood for something.”
Lovely. So your concept of sin should dictate how other people believe, feel, and behave? I personally think it’s sinful to eat meat, I suppose that you should be prohibited from killing animals because I personally don’t like it. Coolio. Start shutting down the slaughterhouses.
I love how any time people try to be sensitive to the needs of those who aren’t “normal” they are accused of bowing to political correctness.
Well, that’s the thing. You decided, just like people who decided gay people are mentally ill, that your opinions on their mental state should dictate how they are treated and how they should be addressed.
No, I didn’t “just decide”. Gay people being attracted to someone of the same gender is not a definitive value. It’d be like me trying to PROVE that a painting was beautiful, or that Rob Lowe is more attractive than Chris Cornell. THOSE are subjective values. Attraction is in the eye of the beholder, and not something can be “wrong”. HOWEVER, a persons gender most certainly CAN be proven, and if what your flawed brain tells you is not congruent with what reality and verifiable evidence SHOWS you, it isn’t reality that is errant. Duh.
Jack, a mtf trans in the bathroom next to me means I’m sharing the bathroom with a man who is probably bigger and stronger than me. That’s not what I signed up for when I went to a female bathroom or dressing room, etc. As a rape survivor, I have a real problem with sharing bathrooms with men. A lot of women do, whether they’ve been raped or not. We shouldn’t have to share women’s bathrooms, dressing rooms with men. There are safety issues, etc. That’s where the pretending clashes with my rights as a woman. And I’m not going along with it.
I oppose you labeling someone at the age of seven because he chooses to play with what historically have been thought of as female toys. I oppose you telling a child lies — that he is a girl when he is not.
Gays cannot get married because marriage is already defined. I have no problem with people entering into civil unions.
All crimes are hate crimes.
No one should be fired for who they choose to have sexual relationships with as long as they are both of age, it is totally consensual, it doesn’t affect their job performance or happen during work hours.
Amber, do you think an anorexic teen should be allowed to join a camp for overweight teens? Should an adult who believes they are still a teenager be able to be a member of the high school basketball team? Should someone who believes they have cancer (in spite of doctors saying they don’t) be allowed chemo treatment? The list goes on and on.
Would love to hear your opinion. Remember not to be an agephobe, weightphobe or hypochondriatphobe because that would make you a hater.
“they are not “men who think they are women” but it’s funny that your comment reminds me greatly of “separate but equal” bathrooms, etc. of the African American civil-rights movement.”
Amber – They most certainly are men and they most certainly do want to pretend that they are women – to be called women, addressed by female pronouns, etc.
Bathrooms/locker rooms/certain clubs etc are separated by sex. If you think that’s something subjective that people get to choose for themselves, then there should be no more separation b/c people can just walk into whichever one they “feel” like.
Jack, you’re so right! Sodomy should be mainstreamed and totally acceptable. I go by what the BIBLE says is sin-not what I say is sin. The law hasn’t changed, and neither has God. You have. You own it, I don’t. Men wearing lipstick aren’t women. I guess it’s more important to appear ‘tolerant’ so everyone will like you than actually STAND UP for Christian values, eh? Not on my watch. Some of the comments here illustrate how the disease of progressive liberalism has spread, particularly among Christians. Just as the Bible said it would. Go ahead and condone the ridiculous if you want-I won’t. Call me whatever names you want. Marriage is a sacrament, something that seems to have been lost on a few of you. While you’re busy labeling whatever as a hate crime, keep in mind that abortion is the ultimate hate crime and the party that supports and promotes it also supports and promotes the LGBT agenda. NO THANKS. Again, don’t force your ‘morality’ on me. Tolerance is for those with no conviction and no spine. Rant over, I’m done commenting on this thread because it’s like herding cats. Later.
Some more info on biological basis for transsexualism, X:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm
I have more links but I don’t want my comment eaten. If you are so worried about evidences and facts, then look into it. Sexuality and gender are determined much more by your brain then what is between your legs.
Mary Ann, I am really sorry for what happened to you. I think that if people really looked into transsexualism they would find a lot to allay their fears.
Sodomy should be mainstreamed and totally acceptable. I go by what the BIBLE says is sin-not what I say is sin. The law hasn’t changed, and neither has God. You have. You own it, I don’t. Men wearing lipstick aren’t women. I guess it’s more important to appear ‘tolerant’ so everyone will like you than actually STAND UP for Christian values, eh?”
Considering that I am not a Christian, that I don’t give a crap about what your Bible says or condemns, that all sounded like white noise to me.
”Not on my watch. Some of the comments here illustrate how the disease of progressive liberalism has spread, particularly among Christians. Just as the Bible said it would. Go ahead and condone the ridiculous if you want-I won’t. Call me whatever names you want. Marriage is a sacrament, something that seems to have been lost on a few of you. While you’re busy labeling whatever as a hate crime, keep in mind that abortion is the ultimate hate crime and the party that supports and promotes it also supports and promotes the LGBT agenda. NO THANKS. Again, don’t force your ‘morality’ on me. Tolerance is for those with no conviction and no spine. Rant over, I’m done commenting on this thread because it’s like herding cats. Later.”
Lol, I don’t vote Democrat either, so some more white noise. And considering I don’t call names but you have, that makes your whole rant just slightly ridiculous.
Here is the deal. You Christians, Muslims, or whatever religion that condemns the LGBT community can have your opinions, you are free to say all day long how much you hate this activity, or that choice, or that behavior. You can refuse to let gays or trans in any private function you want, blah blah. But unless said behavior is harming non-consenting parties, I will always refuse to let you push your morality on other people. As I would not push my personal lifestyle choices on you.
‘personal choices-now where have we heard that before? I rest my case.
Ugh, I am pro-life. It’s part of that whole “do no harm to others but live your life the way you want” philosophy. Transgenders and gays aren’t hurting you, besides your prickly sensibilities.
Yeah, it has no effect on me as a Christian when depraved people want to twist the sacrament of marriage to their own ends and get married in Christian churches and call it a Christian ceremony. Who am I as a Christian to speak up for people crapping all over His Name in MY church? It’s not like I have a Constitutional or Biblical right to speak out against sin or anything. I mean, what do I think I am, saved by His Grace or something? We should all just shut up and let anarchy reign-at least we’ll be popular and politically correct, and that’s far more important than our relationship with our Creator. Silly me. It’s only Christ being hurt by depravity in His Name. Not like He ever did anything for us, right? Enjoy your millstone, Jack. Faux-life.
If a gay person is insisting on having your church marry them, I will stand beside you and argue that it’s infringing your freedom of practice. At the government level? Boo hoo, is all I have to say about how it offends your delicate and fragile mores. As I have said a MILLION FREAKING TIMES you all have the right to be utterly offended that people don’t live their lives you think they should.
Again, you are talking to someone who doesn’t believe in your Jesus, so trying to guilt trip me in Christ’s name is not only futile but silly. Jesus never did anything for me.
And threats of hell are always great conversion techniques. Lol!!
I’m not reading through every comment in this thread, so I’ll just ask how did the topic get to transexualism?
Not trying to convert you, Jack. You’re welcome to dismiss everything I’ve said. You won’t forget I said it, though. Have a nice day.
‘personal choices-now where have we heard that before? I rest my case.
First off, oh my word, lrn2grammar, plzkthxbai. Capitals go at the beginning of the sentence, close your quotes if you’re going to open them. Use double quotes to start off, then single, then double as applicable. Honestly, good writing is not optional.
Second, no, no, and absolutely no. The fact that the pro-abortion movement likes to equate a choice that ends human lives with the choice of what sort of ice cream one prefers does not automatically mean that the freedom to make any choice whatsoever is bad and should be curtailed. Even if…no. Not even if. Because I guarantee you there is something you have the freedom to do that someone else would love to take away from you. But so long as you do not violate their rights doing it, they can’t. So, especially if you happen to disagree with the choice in question.
Just…argh. You do not get to swoop in and equate a transperson, who violates no one’s rights, who takes away no one’s liberty, and who ends no one’s life with the act of abortion. This “argument” is a non-start…no. Again, that’s not strong enough. This is not an argument, it is a joke. It has to be. Because if you mean it, then you are justifying, with that comments, Obama’s decision to require Catholic hospitals to cover contraceptives. If you think it’s okay to take away people’s freedom to do things that do not violate anyone’s rights, even if the exercise of those freedoms is desperately important to them, simply because you think they are wrong, then Obama hasn’t done anything wrong. You can’t have it both ways.
The idea of trying to dictate to people, who are not harming anyone but possibly themselves, how they have to live their lives is completely antithetical to everything I believe as an American and someone who cares about human rights and liberty. If that’s Christianity I want no part of it. I suppose I will answer to God for that, Moronic Quotes, because I certainly don’t have to answer to someone like you.
Amber, I guess you stand by calling people names, then? Ok.
I think that’s bullying behavior. And I stand by that.
And, I think you do no one who identifies as LBGT a favor by jumping down people’s throats with name calling. If you had an argument on this topic, I would have listened. But just telling people that they have to think a certain way or they are homophobes? That’s a simplistic turnoff.
you can make your own thin mints….well, sort of…..semi homemade They wouldn’t be exactly like the thin mints, but they’d be cheper and you wouldn’t be supporting Planned Parenthood.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/mint-wafers-recipe/index.html
Looks like I rained on the pride parade in here. Too bad. Thanks for the grammar lesson, Alice. Get over yourself. I’ll make it really simple for you, then I’m done. The gay rights movement was birthed out of the sexual revolution of the 70s, which birthed the proabortion movement (pun intended). Prolife is about the sanctity offamily values in addition to protecting unborn human life. Two men boinking each other are not a family, no matter what moonbat label you put on it. And all your smarmy ‘we all want choices’ rhetoric just reeks of the same ideology as prochoice-because it is the same ideology. If we start allowing and legalizing one depraved choice, it opens the door to others. What’s next? When we find out what’s next, folks like Alice and Jack here will be the ones whining the loudest, because they allowed it to happen. Congrats, you two-you’ve bought into the ‘progress’ radical feminists are shilling for-you’ve got one foot in the abortion camp already. I suggest you get off the fence and make up your minds, or enjoy the splinters in your asses, because you’re absolutely useless to the prolife movement. Promoting sex outside of marriage is the antithesis of prolife-but I’m sure the prochoice hookup culture appreciates your support. Why? BECAUSE IT ADDS TO THE ABORTION NUMBERS. It ain’t rocket science. Don’t feel too badly though-we all want ‘choices’–right?
“Tolerance is for those with no conviction and no spine.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvL5lMmY88k&skipcontrinter=1
It’s exactly the kind that kind of comprimising that has kept abortion legal for the last 40 years. Enablers.
“Sexuality and gender are determined much more by your brain then what is between your legs.”
Has this been proven? What part does nurture have to do with it? Has Bobby had a brain scan already and have any professionals stated that they are willing to publicly attest that his brain is that of a female? He’s seven for crying out loud.
I will address my questions to any one who believes it is healthy and in Bobby’s best interest to encourage his participation in the Girl Scouts:
Do you think an anorexic teen should be allowed to join a camp for overweight teens? Should an adult who believes they are still a teenager be able to be a member of the high school basketball team? Should someone who believes they have cancer (in spite of doctors saying they don’t) be allowed chemo treatment?
“It’s exactly the kind that kind of comprimising that has kept abortion legal for the last 40 years. Enablers.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMqdUFfxhNI
There is evidence pointing in the direction of biology, Praxedes. If you can solve the problem of nature versus nurture in regards to psychology I am sure that you will get a Nobel, lol.
But I am pretty much done with this conversation. I have never seen anyone change their minds on gender until they have spent a lot of time in the LGBT community, which isn’t going to happen with me harping on you guys.
Jack, Right. If it is all or partly due to poor nurturing or even abuse, we are enabling terrible behavior by supporting this. The fact is we don’t know for sure.
I do not think it is in the long-term best interest of a little seven year old boy to join the Girl Scouts any more than it would have been in my best interest to encourage me to join the Boy Scouts because I liked some toys/games that were typically geared toward boys. We have no evidence this is biological with Bobby. I think this is child abuse.
Child abuse? Wow that’s a term that is really thrown around willy nilly. I really don’t want to be on this thread anymore, because I have really low tolerance for being sentenced to hell by someone who is not a supreme being (MPCQ), but I have to take issue with that. You are calling a personal parenting decision abusive, with no evidence that it is harming or abusing the child? How is that your right?
First off, oh my word, lrn2grammar, plzkthxbai. Capitals go at the beginning of the sentence, close your quotes if you’re going to open them. Use double quotes to start off, then single, then double as applicable. Honestly, good writing is not optional.
Really, Alice?? Wow.
…Okay. First off, Praxedes, no I don’t think transgirls should be able to join the Girl Scouts. This is because no matter how much a transwoman might identify with women, they are always going to have had the experience of having had male privilege at some point. And, if they choose, they’ll always be able to go right back to having it. Girl Scouting was created to be a safe space for girls to be empowered. A transgirl has the ability to make all the anti-feminism women have to deal with go away if she decides to live as a man. For most women, that’s not an option.
Now, as to MPQ…
Looks like I rained on the pride parade in here. Too bad. Thanks for the grammar lesson, Alice.
You’re welcome. I hope you’ll put it to good use.
Get over yourself. I’ll make it really simple for you, then I’m done.
Then you won’t mind me having the last word. Thanks.
Prolife is about the sanctity offamily values in addition to protecting unborn human life. Two men boinking each other are not a family, no matter what moonbat label you put on it.
Way to make assumptions. Let me quote something I said in an earlier post, and then I’m going to break it down for you in even simpler terms since you clearly didn’t catch it the first time. “…while certainly a trans lifestyle is not Biblically defensible, it is unreasonable and stupid to expect people who are not religious to behave as if they are.”
So, we’re going to take this in two parts. Number one: a trans lifestyle is not Biblically defensible. Neither is homosexuality. They aren’t. We can all read the Bible, we know what it says in Romans 1, this is not a point of contention. I’m on that page, you’re on that page, we’re on that page together. Great.
Number two: it is unreasonable and stupid to expect people who are not religious to behave as if they are. And it really, really is unreasonable and stupid. Even people who are Christians can not perfectly live up to the standards set forth by the Bible, and we have reason to want to. We have the Holy Spirit helping us out. Ideally, we study the Word and are accountable members of Bible-believing churches. And we still don’t get it all right. A non-Christian lacks the most important element of that. They do not have God, living in their mind and heart, giving them His help to guide them and His love to motivate them. They aren’t going to live up to a Christian morality because they aren’t Christians. Expecting them to do it–expecting them to so much as want to–is the same level of moronic as expecting a rock to transform into Frank Sinatra and perform “Puttin’ On The Ritz.” A non-Christian does not have a reason to live their lives by Christian standards and they’re not going to.
So, now that we’ve got that straightened out. There is a document that governs lays out peoples’ rights and responsibilities as citizens of the United States. It’s called the Constitution. Admittedly, the Bible is a better and more comprehensive guide to life, but since we’ve just established that not everyone is going to use it, we’re going to need something everyone will use.
And the Constitution very helpfully outlines the rights people do, in fact, have. Like the right to say what we want to, or to own guns, or to expect that law enforcement needs to prove they have a good reason before they come tramping into our houses and hunting through our stuff. And then there’s this great amendment at the bottom. Amendment 9: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” Have people taken this way too far in order to justify abortion? Obviously. The unborn are protected under the fourteenth amendment and a reasonable reading of the Constitution that applied acknowledged and settled science and philosophy would admit this. That doesn’t undo the fact that in this country, people actually do have the right to live the way they choose so long as they don’t infringe on other people’s rights to do it. …You really love to ignore that “so long as they don’t ingringe…” bit. I suppose it’s because if you were honest, you’d have to admit that it undermines all your shrill screeching.
Honestly, what America are you living in?
Congrats, you two-you’ve bought into the ‘progress’ radical feminists are shilling for-you’ve got one foot in the abortion camp already.
I am a Christian. I am pro-life. I am a feminist. It’s not that complicated. Christianity taught me humans are valuable. Being pro-life taught me humans are valuable. Feminism is simply the natural result of acknowledging this to be true. Being a feminist is hardly going to erode the very things that made me a feminist in the first place. That would be sawing off the branch I’m sitting on.
I suggest you get off the fence and make up your minds, or enjoy the splinters in your asses, because you’re absolutely useless to the prolife movement.
I don’t count shill screeds with no logical cohesion and promote tyranny as accurate sources of my value to the pro-life movement. I stand for inalienable rights. Life first, then liberty. Freedom isn’t a bad thing.
You really don’t understand. I agree that promiscuous sex is a bad thing. I agree that it is morally wrong. The problem we’re facing is that not everyone does. And while I have the right to try and convince others that I am correct, I do not have the right to try and force them to agree that I am correct. My defense of the unborn is because people do not have the right to harm innocent human beings. My defense of the hypothetical transwoman who is beaten to death by her shocked boyfriend is because people do not have the right to harm innocent human beings. The fact that someone has chosen to live a life that I don’t feel is morally upstanding does not suddenly mean they have no rights.
…And, yeah, I’m going to go here. If you are not willing to defend the rights of people who do not act in ways you approve of, then you are not willing to defend rights at all.
LOL @ the biology strawman. ‘Homosexuals aren’t hurting anyone but themselves’ (and those millions of people who are now HIV positive becaue of their depravity). That sciencey enough for you, Jack?
Yup. those HIV positive children of straight people really had it coming, MPCQ.
Suppose we should outlaw driving too, look at all the people dying because of it!
Alice, where did I say we have the right to kill transpeople? How disingenous can you get? BTW, lots of typos in your post there-perhaps you ought to take your own writing course. Shrill screed, indeed. Thanks for proving my points so well. Depravity is an inalienable right now? So sorry, but no, I will not defend depravity. Go on ahead and call yourself whatever you want, it’ll be in name only. You’ve already folded to the other side like a cheap tent. Keep enabling them. Let us know how that works out for you, k?
@MPQ: Ah, the predictable return of the flouncer. But hey, at least I use paragraphs.
And if you’d actually read the thread, you would know I was referencing one of xalisae’s first posts which started off this whole thing.
“Depravity is an inalienable right now? So sorry, but no, I will not defend depravity. Go on ahead and call yourself whatever you want, it’ll be in name only. You’ve already folded to the other side like a cheap tent. Keep enabling them. Let us know how that works out for you, k?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYIU09o1gsI&skipcontrinter=1
“You are calling a personal parenting decision abusive, with no evidence that it is harming or abusing the child?”
You can’t prove to me that it’s not harming this boy or any of the girls in the GS group for that matter. If poor nurturing is found to cause, partly or otherwise, this disorder, do you think we should be enabling this behavior? I error on the side of caution when it comes to protecting children whether that be emotionally, psychologically, physically, socially, spiritually. There are many decisions that some parents think are “personal parenting decisions” that I disagree with and believe are damaging to the well being of the child.
“Girl Scouting was created to be a safe space for girls to be empowered.”
I agree Alice and boys deserve the same safe space.
Jack, Do you think an anorexic teen should be allowed to join a camp for overweight teens? Should an adult who believes they are still a teenager be able to be a member of the high school basketball team? Should someone who believes they have cancer (in spite of doctors saying they don’t) be allowed chemo treatment?
I’ll add another question for you, Jack. Should the mom in this case be able to make the decision to have Bobby’s genitals removed if he wants them removed?
Ah, more hate from Jack and Alice for me (as they denounce everyone as haters) thanks for showing the world your flaming hypocrisy. throw Christians under the bus in defense of gays and then call yourself a Christian. Comedy gold. Good night.
“Ah, more hate from Jack and Alice for me (as they denounce everyone as haters) thanks for showing the world your flaming hypocrisy. throw Christians under the bus in defense of gays and then call yourself a Christian. Comedy gold. Good night.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY86ADsJvcY
MPQ – Accuses me and Alice of hate while sentencing me to hell (without even knowing me lol). Where was the hate in my responses to your insults?
Praxedes, I am not really in the mood to have a discussion, I’ll try to get to your questions tomorrow. Have a nice night.
Jack,
“The idea of trying to dictate to people, who are not harming anyone but possibly themselves, how they have to live their lives is completely antithetical to everything I believe as an American”
I don’t think anyone here is advocating that the government dictate how people live their lives (At least I haven’t seen it). As you said, people are perfectly free to feel that certain behaviors are harmful and to express that to other people – that’s just private interaction. If you’re referring to opposition to gay marriage, I think that’s a different argument – it’s not about how people live their lives, but why we have civil recognition of marriage (how it benefits the government/society) and in light of that whether all relationships are similarly situated such that they should receive that recognition.
Alice,
“There is a document that governs lays out peoples’ rights and responsibilities as citizens of the United States. It’s called the Constitution.”
Alice, that is not what the Constitution does. It lays out people’s rights vis a vis freedom from the government and defines the scope of government power. So a private individual is perfectly free to infringe upon your freedom of speech or execute warrantless searches, provided they aren’t breaking any laws. The Constitution leaves everything else to state governments and a lot of legislation is aimed at creating an order for the common good. The government cannot impose religion, but it certainly can and DOES incorporate values into our laws. The key is not to simply throw out a bible verse, but to persuade through reason. Just b/c a religion teaches something does not automatically exclude it from public consideration if it’s a matter of reason and not merely faith.
“And, yeah, I’m going to go here. If you are not willing to defend the rights of people who do not act in ways you approve of, then you are not willing to defend rights at all.”
What rights do you think are being infringed upon? You said the Girl Scouts don’t have an obligation to admit these boys. Do you think transgendered people have a right to demand that people participate in their delusions? That people have an obligation to use incorrect pronouns?
“it is unreasonable and stupid to expect people who are not religious to behave as if they are.”
And it is unreasonable and stupid to expect people who are religious to behave as if they aren’t. I just don’t understand what you’re saying or what you’re looking for people to do here.
Do you think these people need to be saved because they’re wearing skirts and girly hats?
I’d like to see you try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyD370_mv5c
Gee whiz. I recommended this news story to Laura Loo because I was thinking of the effect it had on the girls in the troop. Remember them? If a boy wants to join a crocheting circle, fine. But to dress up as a girl and crash a club defined as being for girls?
So then we have so many here who are intolerant of our supposed intolerance on behalf of these girls, and the poor, confused boy and his mother, who seems a step below the stagemothers on Toddlers and Tiaras.
And to top it all off we have a delightful reappearance by mp, still working out his issues with his military service, accusing us of being Nazis and ridiculing our perceived shock at Tartan military dress.
Can I sum up my thoughts?
Boys are boys and girls are girls. They don’t always act that way, but they are only “trans-” for mental reasons, not biological ones. Even hermaphrodites are predominantly one gender or the other.
I’m not trans-racial because I want to be a Zulu warrior. I’m not trans-species because I’d rather be a bear.
And when I join a club, I don’t want the rules completely rewritten just to make non-club members feel better. Let them tolerate us.
Thanks, Jack. I sincerely appreciate you getting back to me. I think it is great (and important) that we can have these discussions even if we sometimes step on a few toes and ruffle a couple feathers. There is obviously a need for these discussions and I think we can all learn a lot from each other.
Have a nice night too, Jack. Talk with you soon.
“And to top it all off we have a delightful reappearance by mp, still working out his issues with his military service, accusing us of being Nazis and ridiculing our perceived shock at Tartan military dress.”
Hans, I didn’t accuse you of anything. You must be “projecting.”
I calls ’em as I sees ’em. And apparently you do too. Nazis? Really? That’s the first refuge of the tongue-tied. And scoundrels.
Hans, I would ‘like’ your last comment 20 times if I could.
“And when I join a club, I don’t want the rules completely rewritten just to make non-club members feel better. Let them tolerate us.”
What special effort would it take on your part to acknowledge somebody who wishes to identify as their non-biological sex? If women can “act like” men, and men can “act like” women, a change in appellation wouldn’t cause a seismic shift. You probably ordered a coffee or did a bank transaction with a transperson today, unknowingly. So creeeeeeepy, amiright?
“I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. And apparently you do too. Nazis? Really? That’s the first refuge of the tongue-tied. And scoundrels.”
Bah!
Anyone who writes trash like this:
“Tolerance is for those with no conviction and no spine.”
deserves nothing less than the full treatment.
Hans, it’s called The Museum of Tolerance.
Maybe you should go visit and learn something.
http://www.museumoftolerance.com/site/c.tmL6KfNVLtH/b.4865925/k.83A7/Whats_Happening_at_the_MOT.htm
“What special effort would it take on your part to acknowledge somebody who wishes to identify as their non-biological sex”
It requires agreeing to abandon all the reasons you support having girls groups or boys groups in the first place. This boy is not a girl, regardless of how he wishes to act. If he is to be admitted, then all members, leaders, etc must also agree to engage in and encourage the mental distortion regardless of whether they believe that to be harmful (b/c of course it would hurt his feelings if EVERYONE didn’t agree to pretend he was a girl). It requires acceptance of the pretty offensive claim that girls act a certain way such that there is nothing more to being a girl than being a boy who mimics certain actions and manner of dress. If the genders are truly interchangeable, then there’s really not much worth preserving in sex specific clubs in the first place. For those who believe otherwise, there’s a lot at stake.
And no it’s not creepy. Though it must be shocking to people who need approval for every behavior they engage in, most of us are capable of treating people with respect without validating behavior we see as harmful.
if your child thinks he’s a horse, you let him play horse in the back yard. You do not send him to a barn with a bale of straw and put him in a stall.
Relativism has gotten so far out of hand, its time to diagnose it as a pathology.
Megan, should a physician be forced to remove a child’s genitals if that is what he says he wants and if his parent agrees to it?
Cut the theatrics, Jack, no one is condemning you to hell. It wasn’t my intention to start a war here, so I’ll stop commenting, except to say it saddens me to see Christians so complacent on what they know is morally wrong just to avoid rattling anyone else’s cage-it’s this kind of ‘oh well we live in a fallen world and people are gonna do what they want anyway’ that allowed abortion to creep in and become mainstream. If the body of Christ had stepped up in the first place, it wouldn’t have. so I’ll take my share of the blame as a Christian for that failure. Enough said.
@CT: You know what, thank you. You seem to be the only person who has actually twigged to the fact that I haven’t told anyone to do anything. I have said that perhaps we should treat transpeople as they would wish most of the time. Using their preferred pronouns is not exactly going to kill you, nor is it hard. That does not equal doing everything the trans community wants simply because they feel like you ought to. And believe me, if a transperson were to read my posts here they would probably be angry at me, since I don’t think transgirls should be allowed to be Girl Scouts for example.
Alice, that is not what the Constitution does. It lays out people’s rights vis a vis freedom from the government and defines the scope of government power. So a private individual is perfectly free to infringe upon your freedom of speech or execute warrantless searches, provided they aren’t breaking any laws.
Yes and no. A private individual is free to stop you saying what you like if and only if they own the platform on which you are saying it. If you are in a place over which they have no control, they’re out of luck. And, no, a private individual most definitely can not execute warrantless searches of a space in which you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. That is called trespassing and is highly illegal. This is why a landlord can inspect your apartment but cannot go rummaging through your underwear drawer while you are out. The rights outlined in the Constitution are rights the government is expected to grant citizens in the general case. So, yes, it is the government’s responsibility to uphold them, but no, that does not imply that private citizens can run around taking them away from each other willy-nilly.
What rights do you think are being infringed upon? You said the Girl Scouts don’t have an obligation to admit these boys. Do you think transgendered people have a right to demand that people participate in their delusions? That people have an obligation to use incorrect pronouns?
That particular comment was in response to MPQ, specifically, who was saying we should attempt to force all transpeople to live by Christian morality. While I believe that everyone would be better and–ultimately, though in many cases, probably not right away–happier if they were Christians, this is not going to happen. And is something that every Christian, MPQ included, has to square with sooner or later.
Having said that, to this and your comment beneath, you are right that transpeople have no more right to force everyone else to behave in ways they find acceptable. Yes, I think people should, most of the time, use a transperson’s preferred pronouns, but I’m hardly going to reach through the internet and beat you if you don’t. Obviously this is a decision people are allowed to make for themselves.
But, just like you have a right to try and convince me, I have a right to try and convince you. And, given that xalisae’s second comment painted a trans murder victim as the primary person at fault in their own murder, I was pretty alarmed. Yes, that particular situation is incredibly unlikely. But the underlying attitude of “When transpeople are bullied/beaten/otherwise-harmed for being trans, it is their fault for being trans not the fault of their attackers for attacking them” is both horrendously wrong and not remotely pro-life. It is also, unfortunately, very common.
So, can you agree that while we both may disagree with transpeople, they ought to be afforded the same fundamental rights as anyone? Not that you must use X pronoun or that transgirls should be Girl Scouts or any of that. Just, the fundamental rights. Because if we accept the attitude displayed by xalisae’s post, then the answer would be, “No, they shouldn’t.” And that is a problem.
That particular comment was in response to MPQ, specifically, who was saying we should attempt to force all transpeople to live by Christian morality. While I believe that everyone would be better and–ultimately, though in many cases, probably not right away–happier if they were Christians, this is not going to happen. And is something that every Christian, MPQ included, has to square with sooner or later.
Having said that, to this and your comment beneath, you are right that transpeople have no more right to force everyone else to behave in ways they find acceptable. Yes, I think people should, most of the time, use a transperson’s preferred pronouns, but I’m hardly going to reach through the internet and beat you if you don’t. Obviously this is a decision people are allowed to make for themselves.
But, just like you have a right to try and convince me, I have a right to try and convince you. And, given that xalisae’s second comment painted a trans murder victim as the primary person at fault in their own murder, I was pretty alarmed. Yes, that particular situation is incredibly unlikely. But the underlying attitude of “When transpeople are bullied/beaten/otherwise-harmed for being trans, it is their fault for being trans not the fault of their attackers for attacking them” is both horrendously wrong and not remotely pro-life. It is also, unfortunately, very common.
So, can you agree that while we both may disagree with transpeople, they ought to be afforded the same fundamental rights as anyone? Not that you must use X pronoun or that transgirls should be Girl Scouts or any of that. Just, the fundamental rights. Because if we accept the attitude displayed by xalisae’s post, then the answer would be, “No, they shouldn’t.” And that is a problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5gkkBtRK_U&feature=related
@mp: Why have you linked me to the National Anthem?
“@mp: Why have you linked me to the National Anthem?”
Your words suggest to me that you’re an American, a real American.
Oh. Haha. Well, thanks, then. ;)
“@mp: Why have you linked me to the National Anthem?”
Your words suggest to me that you’re an American, a real American.
I guess everyone who doesn’t agree with Alice or mp aren’t “real Americans” but Nazis. Good to know.
“I guess everyone who doesn’t agree with Alice or mp aren’t “real Americans” but Nazis. Good to know.”
You guess wrong.
If you’re a tolerant person, you’re welcome at my table.
If you’re an intolerant person, you’re not.
It’s really as simple as that.
So, can you agree that while we both may disagree with transpeople, they ought to be afforded the same fundamental rights as anyone?
Of course I agree that all human beings are entitled to fundamental rights.
Because if we accept the attitude displayed by xalisae’s post, then the answer would be, “No, they shouldn’t.”
I think this misconstrue’s what Xalise said. Her point seemed only to be that people involved in crimes like rape (which is what is happening when trans people deceive those they have sex with) sometimes rapists get killed. And no one sheds a tear. Now Jack and she disagree on how prevalent this scenario is – I have no idea myself. But, I didn’t see her encouraging beating and murder of trans people.
Also, I’m sorry but you are incorrect about the Constitution. If someone trresspasses under the relevant statute, they have committed a crime, but they have not violated your constitutional right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. And if you invite them into your house and they search through your medicine cabinet, find cocaine, and call the police, they still haven’t violated your rights. As for free speech, obviously they have to have the ability to curtail your speech, but once they do they certainly can curtail it. They don’t have to print your fliers, rent you their location, etc. Only govt run places and public locations have this obligation.
And to be clear re this: “My defense of the hypothetical transwoman who is beaten to death by her shocked boyfriend is because people do not have the right to harm innocent human beings.” The bf should be prosecuted for assault, and the trans man should be prosecuted for rape.
Well, mp, that isn’t what you said. Perhaps next time you could actually say what you mean instead of insinuating that Alice is a “real” American because she agrees with you.
Guess you’re pretty intolerant of those you deem intolerant. And since I’ve seen most of your posts over time, it’s a very educated guess.
“And, given that xalisae’s second comment painted a trans murder victim as the primary person at fault in their own murder”
No, she painted a rapist as the primary person at fault in their own murder. To twist what someone said says much more about the twister.
“Well, mp, that isn’t what you said. Perhaps next time you could actually say what you mean instead of insinuating that Alice is a “real” American because she agrees with you.
Guess you’re pretty intolerant of those you deem intolerant. And since I’ve seen most of your posts over time, it’s a very educated guess.”
No. Alice’s words suggest that she may be a real American because REAL AMERICANS BELIEVE IN TOLERANCE.
Moronic wrote, “Tolerance is for those with no conviction and no spine.”
Well, Sieg Heil! Anyone who writes trash like that is INTOLERANT and self-admittedly so. He’s telling you he’s INTOLERANT and that, if your aren’t too, you have no conviction or spine.
Liberal: “I hate those rightwing conservatives and Christians and family values idiots and…’
Liberal’s friend: “Why?”
Liberal: “Because they’re so freakin’ intolerant!”
Liberal proabort: “I didn’t kill a baby, I killed a fetus.”
Nazi: “I didn’t kill human beings, just Jews.”
Too weak to speak up for the proabortion side directly, mp? You know, those ‘tolerant’ liberals who can’t even tolerate their own children for nine months of pregnancy? FYI, I’m a she, not a he. ‘She’ as in ‘not a man in a skirt’, since some folks here can’t seem to diiferentiate the two. Question, mp-you’re unwilling to tolerate those who don’t support the LGBT agenda-are you tolerant of the wholesale slaughter of the unborn? Or is it just easier to call those who disagree with you Nazis?
“Megan, should a physician be forced to remove a child’s genitals if that is what he says he wants and if his parent agrees to it?”
Physicians aren’t typically “forced” to perform invasive surgery for non-acute needs, first of all, but you’ll be surprised to find some physicians do provide specialized care to transpeople. Crazy, I know. Second, like most major medical decisions, this issue needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Graduated hormonal therapy is one option that would delay the need for surgical intervention until the patient is no longer a minor.
“If the genders are truly interchangeable, then there’s really not much worth preserving in sex specific clubs in the first place.”
Excellent point. Maybe they are outdated.
Here’s something else for you to chew on, mp-evil can only take root and grow when good people stand by and do NOTHING. If you think dressing a little boy as a girl and pushing him into the girl scouts is well-adjusted, you have a few screws loose, and I pray you never reproduce. See ya.
Not surprising that Megan is okay with starting hormonal “therapy” on a child.
I guess in Meg’s world since you have the choice to decide whether your child gets to live or die you sure should be able to choose that you want to give him hormones to change-up his gender.
After all, you could have aborted him and he should be forever grateful that you didn’t even if that means he has to carry the weight of your messed up world on his shoulders and become your best girlfriend.
Praxedes-no kidding. Like our kids aren’t under enough pressure already trying to navigate a world full of drugs, guns, violence and predators, now they have to wonder if the girl they want to ask to the prom might be a guy in disguise? Do liberals ever think about anything but how they look to others? They couldn’t care less about the effect on that little boy. Who cares if he has to spend the rest of his life in therapy? And they wonder why we might be a tad bit angry at their lunacy? Maybe because it EFFECTS OTHERS?
“Not surprising that Megan is okay with starting hormonal “therapy” on a child.”
As I said, this should be decided on a case-by-case basis after an extensive screening process. It’s a matter between the minor, the guardian(s) and provider team. But I’m not surprised that you feel it necessary to insert yourself into other people’s most intimate medical affairs.
“After all, you could have aborted him and he should be forever grateful that you didn’t”
…and, if abortion were criminalized, there would be no reason at all for the child to be grateful. A woman with even the most arduous, difficult of pregnancies couldn’t expect to receive a thank-you from her offspring, because gestation would be her legal duty. Under this scheme, childbearing would be reduced to a brute perpetuation of the lifecyle.
“Who cares if he has to spend the rest of his life in therapy?”
Clearly you don’t, since countless trans individuals have attested to being miserable living in their biological bodies. But I’d be interested in seeing some peer-reviewed studies demonstrating a cure for gender dysphoria. But they can’t be authored by Marcus Bachmann or involve demon exorcism.
“now they have to wonder if the girl they want to ask to the prom might be a guy in disguise?”
If your kid unwittingly asks out a trans individual, and this is an absolute deal-breaker for your child, then the relationship ends, like most high school relationships do. But if this information weren’t disclosed, how would your kid know about the other person’s trans-ness without some premarital heavy petting??
“If the genders are truly interchangeable, then there’s really not much worth preserving in sex specific clubs in the first place.”
“Excellent point. Maybe they are outdated”
So you answered your own question about what’s at stake. One wonders why he would want to join a club based on such outdated notions. And since the genders are interchangeable, one wonders how he knows he’s the wrong one.
“and, if abortion were criminalized, there would be no reason at all for the child to be grateful”
I don’t expect my children to idolize me, Megan. No healthy parent expects their child to feel grateful to him/her for not killing them. When abortion is criminalized, no child will be made to feel like a choice. They will all realize their government supports them.
My children are here because they have an absolute RIGHT to be here as did your child. Our children’s rights began when we chose to have have sex with their fathers and conceived them. Man up, girlie.
“And since the genders are interchangeable, one wonders how he knows he’s the wrong one.”
LOL, but isn’t Meg the progressive individual?
“And since the genders are interchangeable, one wonders how he knows he’s the wrong one.”
To be honest, this is one of my biggest problems with people who identify as transgender. I think that basically everything besides genitals and reproductive system is pretty variable within genders. The things you like, the way you feel, the way you solve problems, the things you excel at. Whatever. I think that there are TRENDS and generalities but that there is more variation among women as a group than between women and men. So I simply don’t really understand – when a woman says that she feels like she was meant to be a man – what does that mean?
I struggle a lot with frustration at my transgender acquaintances – and I have several – because when they say that it seems to me that they are LIMITING the woman I am. Because they never say, “I feel that I was meant to have a penis.” They go to anecdotally “masculine” preferences, a general displeasure with the way society has treated them as atypical women, etc. And to me, it feels as though they are therefore putting ME into a box THEY didn’t want to be in, either. Because guess what? I like and excel at anecdotally masculine things, too. So what are they saying about ME?
I sometimes feel “too progressive” to understand and unconditionally accept the choices of my transgender acquaintances. It just seems archaic to me; there seems to be such strict adherence to THINGS and ACTIONS that make someone a man or a woman, which is so contrary to everything I believe about myself and the people around me. They are people – whether they are men or women is entirely secondary and tells me virtually nothing about who they are, what they like, what they do, what they want, what they feel. I don’t know. I don’t think that a man liking make-up or skirts makes him a woman. He’s a man! Who likes skirts! It seems archaic and gender-essentialist to not just acquiesce to but actively endorse a system that suggests otherwise.
A friend of mine has two children – a boy and a girl – and she told me the other day that she is now transitioning to be a male. I asked why and she said: “I spent my twenties trying to figure out how to be a lady. I got pretty good at playing that part, but it never quit feeling like playing a part. In my thirties, after spending a while freaking out about it, I felt like that wasn’t working for me anymore and I needed to be who I am.”
I feel like that’s…such a cop-out, somehow. You feel like you’re playing a part? Then the people who are “casting” your life need a wake-up call! If anyone tells you what a woman “should” be, show how them what a woman is and can be! I wonder what her daughter will take away from this – what I see as an open admission that women “have to” be a certain way. Or else they are not women at all.
That said, she did not ask my opinion, and I didn’t give it to her.
Thank you for those links, Jack. I haven’t had a chance to read them yet but I will.
Great post Alexandra. Nobody should be told its fine to mutilate themselves in order to feel accepted. They should be accepted for who they are.
Bobby should be welcomed into the Boy Scouts with open arms. If he wants to wear a dress and/or a bow in his hair while at their gatherings more power to him! There should be consequences for any one who may bully him there no matter what he chooses to wear and mom should no be encouraging him on any type of outfit.
No one in GSs should bully a girl member either who has short hair and who wears jeans, a black T-shirt and work boots.
mp. how tolerant are you of transgendered people? would you have sex with one? and if you did and he said his but hole was a vagina would you believe him in the name of tolerance?
They admit a transgender child?
They have connections with PP to make sure women are safe, have access to healt care and abortion care, that their reproductive rights are secured?
Heck, can I have 15 boxes of those cookies please????
The only issue I see here is that there are a hell of a lot of bigots calling themselves ‘christian’ (I’m aware not all of you bigots are ‘christian’). How easy it must be for you folks to turn your normal vitriol from the pro-choice crowd and take aim a an organization of children. You know, children, those little versions of us that are actually fully developed zygotes that have left the womb & that you all claim to love so much.
How pious you must all feel, taking away from children because you’re so blinded by your hate of the “other” that you think you’re doing something noble! “Let’s take away from the kids because the adults let in a transgendered boy! We can blame the boycott on PP and still feel pious and sanctimonious! Yeah!” You lot are pathetic. Evil, soulless, pathetic anti-gods word, pseudo, fair weather ‘christians’, the lot of you.
I’m going to kill your little boycott and take a whole weeks pay and buy as many boxes of thin mints as $400 will afford! God bless the GSA!!! And God judge you for what you truly are!
Wow you guys are great!!! Thanks to me sharing your hate filled talk ALL over the place orders for cookies are going through the roof!!! You ignorant twits have done a world of good. Praise your made up sky guru!
I will be buying extra boxes for their acceptance of transgendered children and their contributions to PP :D. GO GSUSA!
Order boxes for our troops also as they have a program to send cookies to our troops overseas!!! But hey why would such “good” people such as you want to support that….after all it would take away from getting the torches and pitchforks ready to go and get the transgender children and kill them….oh wait I thought you freaks were “pro-life” hmmmmm that might be a problem for you….oh wait they are already born so they are fair game =/
Who woke up the hate trolls, who accuse people of hate by spewing hate? They’re a little more entertaining when they stick with saying someone who’s alive isn’t really alive till their mother wants them to be alive.
I haven’t seen mp back though Hans. I was also waiting for his ‘tolerant’ response….
Capt.Oblivious, would you support the boy scouts choice to ban gays? Is this truly a choice issue or one where you call people haters for refusing to call a guy a woman just cause he dresses like a girl and insists on being called a girl?
“mp. how tolerant are you of transgendered people? would you have sex with one? and if you did and he said his but hole was a vagina would you believe him in the name of tolerance?”
That’s somebody else’s business, you sick freak. Is your sex life so boring that you have to fantasize about everybody else’s bedroom business?
Wow. I’m really surprised at how many people accused me of “hate” just because I refuse to go along with someone else’s mental illness.
And then even accusing me of hating gays, even though I support gay rights! HA.
Always the cards to be pulled when the other side doesn’t have a leg upon which to stand. Enjoy your cookies, kids.
May the fetuses we save be trans!
May the fetuses we save be trans!
Sure. And then promptly given some mental health counseling so they no longer have delusions of being something they are not.
I have compassion for the mentally ill, but I’m not about to attempt to stow my carry-on luggage in the overhead compartment of a dude who thinks he’s a 747.
Jack,
Holy moly! You are a true evolution believer! Are some of these fetuses trying to become werewolves, too?
@truthseeker I look at the BSA with pity, much as I look at the GSA with pride. I am nauseated by the discrimination shown by the BSA toward the gay community. But, unlike you folks I still buy their popcorn because of the good they do for the kids they do let in &th
@truthseeker I look at the BSA with pity, much as I look at the GSA with pride. I am nauseated by the discrimination shown by the BSA toward the gay community. But, unlike you folks I still buy their popcorn because of the good they do for the kids they do let in & hope one day that organization will become tolerant and accepting of those they now vilify.
Nice try.
Ignorant people are scary. I’m gonna go buy 732483274348324730838423423048 boxes of Girl Scout cookies! Peace!
Wow, now I feel bad for turning them down…next time they ask me to buy from them I will HAVE to purchase 10 boxes XD I love the lemon cookies
and GOOD FOR THEM for accepting her in, makes me proud of the girl scouts!
LOL @ ‘may the fetus you save be trans’-if the ‘gay’ or ‘trans’ gene were isolated tomorrow, would that stop proaborts from killing them in utero? Think we all know the answer to that one. Prochoice ‘tolerance’ ends at the ends of their noses.
Also LMAO @ ‘imaginary sky god’ from the folks who brought us the prochoice fairy who randomly bestows personhood/humanity at some undefined point in time that they can never quite name, and the nothing crashed into nothing and created everything and we crawled up out of a swamp after some amino acids got romantic theory of creation. Yeah, that’s way more believable. LOL.
I believe the transgendered person should be allowed to join, maybe once at a high school level.Younger kids get confused easy. I believe in a woman’s right to choose what happens to her own body, and I believe that Thin Mints ARE THE BEST DAMN COOKIE EVER. But I dont buy from the GS cause they are pushy evil little gals who stand in front of the grocery store making puppy dog eyes at you.
Let’s take away from the kids because the adults let in a transgendered boy
Others here called Bobby a transgendered girl. What is politically correct?
Jack seems like he would know since he is the most popular with those who think the prolifes are haters. Jack, I think you just exposed your agenda.
Pretty sure Jack doesn’t have any “agenda.”
And if the child was male and is now identifying as female – she is a girl. A transgendered girl. If she decides to go through with surgury she would be transexual. But really, just a girl.
Don’t know where that came from, Praxedes. If I have an agenda its making sure that every single being’s rights are protected, including unborn babies and transpeople. I don’t hate anyone, don’t generally name call either.
Having fun yet…. All the proaborts are using their spare cash to buy girl scout cookies. That is awesome. That means Planned Parenthood will have less direct contributions. It looks like a win win;) Capt. Oblivious, if you meet a male who thinks they are a female and dresses like a girl is it healthier for them if you let them know they are really a male or play along with the charade in the name of tolerance?
If I have an agenda its making sure that every single being’s rights are protected, including unborn babies and transpeople.
Jack-
People have the right to their own feelings and opinions. They, however, DO NOT have the right to construct their own facts out of those feelings and opinions. It is called “mental illness” when those constructs conflict with reality, and I am a crusader against mental illness. It’s ravaged my family, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it cast its tendrils through rational society like a cancer.
Jack, Let me ask the questions one more time to see if you will answer them now:
Do you think an anorexic teen should be allowed to join a camp for overweight teens? Should an adult who believes they are still a teenager be able to be a member of the high school basketball team? Should someone who believes they have cancer (in spite of doctors saying they don’t) be allowed chemo treatment?
If I made an idiotic statement like, “May the fetuses we save be straight!” you’d say I had an agenda too. And you’d be right. Your statement was idiotic but very telling.
Looks like I need to buy a couple of extra boxes this year…
Or not. Sigh… I really like those cookies… Grahhhhhhhhhhh
I as a transgendered woman an appalled at the language of a lot of these posts toward my kind… we weren’t born right and seek to align our brain and body as one…
how dare you bring up the abortion issue when speaking about transgenderism its simply disgusting to associate us with that practice…
do you realize that 10% of transgender people commit succesful suicide and up to another 30% attempt it mostly due to the treatment people give out to us…
if you were truly prolife you would embrace us as humans and allow us to blossom and grow… we can be very inteligent and are usually very fair and exude a dynamic beyond reproach…
if you don’t understand us ask us, don’t shun us or even abuse us because we bleed too…
btw it is not a communicable disease and we usually are thoroughly assesed by the medical community to start out hormones etc and have strict guidelines on surgery allowances etc…
please consider what i have said above if you really are pro life…
“Do you think an anorexic teen should be allowed to join a camp for overweight teens? Should an adult who believes they are still a teenager be able to be a member of the high school basketball team? Should someone who believes they have cancer (in spite of doctors saying they don’t) be allowed chemo treatment? ”
Sorry, didn’t have much time away from the kids to type out decent responses. I would consider these false analogies really. The anorexic girl is sick… if she isn’t treated she will most likely die. Actually it can be analogized to the plight of trans people stuck in bodies that they have felt were wrong since childhood. The healthy person wanting chemo, same deal. They want to do something that will kill them. The adult thinking they are still a teenager can act like one, sure, but it would most likely be unwise to have them around children. I don’t really see how these situations are analogous, especially since I doubt that transgender is a mental illness. It seems as though there is some reason people feel born into the wrong bodies, probably biological, and especially given the range of human sexuality and identifications I don’t see a problem with it. They are just people who are not in the bodies that match their indentification.
“ If I made an idiotic statement like, “May the fetuses we save be straight!” you’d say I had an agenda too. And you’d be right. Your statement was idiotic but very telling.”
It was snark. I thought a bit of snark was fine considering what people have said to me on this thread. What do you think my agenda is, besides wanting the LGBT community treated right?
I’m just here to say that I think it’s wrong to accept a boy into an organization aimed at girls. It doesn’t matter what he thinks of himself; the fact is that he isn’t a female. You can go on about LGBT rights and all that, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
And to the guy who said he was going to waste his entire week’s paycheck ($400) on Girl Scout cookies, I think that if you’re only making $400 a week, wasting it on Girl Scout cookies would be the epitome of a terrible idea.
And sure I’m really late to the party (I guess that’s what happens when you don’t look at this website all that often), but I just have to respond to this:
“I still have trouble understanding how it hurts any of you if someone identifies with a gender that their DNA doesn’t agree with.”
It doesn’t, though I don’t think that’s the issue.
“If some mtf transgender is in the bathroom stall next to you, who the heck is it hurting? There is seriously nothing I care less about than the gender of the people who share the bathroom with me, lol.”
1.) “Why have different bathrooms for male and females instead of one bathroom?”
2.) “Why have sororities and fraternities instead of one club for all?”
3.) “Why differentiate based on gender at all?”
Unless you’re going to ascribe to the notion of a genderless society, or even the notion that gender is socially constructed, then there is no logical basis upon which you can reasonably argue that a male should not be allowed to walk into a woman’s bathroom or that a male should not be legally allowed to join or to be included in a place or society that is normally reserved for females, among other examples. The same holds true for women. Sure, it might be kind of weird for a chick to see a guy peeing next to her in a bathroom, for example, but no tangible harm would come of it. No harm, no foul, right?
Anyway, I have an interesting question. If company has to hire a certain number of women, they have not filled their quota and are seeking to fill a position with the two final candidates being a male and a male-to-female transgendered individual, does the latter automatically get the job? ~_^
Actually it can be analogized to the plight of trans people stuck in bodies that they have felt were wrong since childhood.
Ugh, no, because, you see, that’s part of the mental disorder. They need help to re-wire their brains to match their bodies. Someone failed these people as children, and I feel sorry for them, but they don’t need people to play pretend with them. They need help.
Thanks Jack. My arguments are just as legit as yours. Allowing a thin person into a camp for overweight people will not kill the thin person. Allowing a healthy person chemo treatment will not kill them. Why should I not be able to join a high school basketball team even though I am an adult. Heck, I should be able to join the boys’ basketball team. If you disagree, you are both ageist and sexist.
Actually it can be analogized to the plight of trans people stuck in bodies that they have felt were wrong since childhood. Feelings are not facts and they need counseling for their feelings just like someone who feels they are fat, or sick when they are not. Some women feel they are pregnant with a parasite when they are pregnant with a human. Boys should not be allowed in all girl clubs.
Anorexics die because of their sickness. Over-eaters die from their addiction. So do druggies and alcoholics. Some of them commit suicide because of their sickness. Some of them take their lives because they are bullied. Same with transgenders.
Bullying of mentally ill/disordered people should absolutely never be allowed.
Bobby should join the Boy Scouts and should be allowed to dress how he wants to.