My top five favorites of the week, beginning with one that is spot on by Dana Summers at GoComics.com…
by Chip Bok at Townhall.com…
by Lisa Benson at Townhall.com…
And, of course, we have to see what the other side is saying, beginning with one by Jack Ohman at GoComics.com, which is actually pretty clever…
by Joel Pett at GoComics.com…
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Maybe Obama should mandate all health insurance policies pay for pornography too so she can use it to to keep her boyfriends occupied and could make it easier for Fluke to stay barren.
Heart disease is the number one killer of women. If the government is so concerned about women’s health, it should be forcing employers to pay for gym memberships and heart-healthy foods. Now it’s true that women could buy their own gym memberships and healthy foods… But that’s crazy talk.
What will Princess Pelosi hold hearings on next? Insurance and taxpayer coverage for jock spray and tampons?
I know Obama was raised by his mother and his grandmother (no male guidance) but maybe he could look at it from a man’s perspective too and mandate that all health insurance policies pay a prostitution stipend to males who want to pay women to have sex with them cause sex with their wives runs the risk of familial responsibilities.
Hi John Lewandowski,
I think we should have taxpayer and insurance subsidized nutitional supplements.
Have you guys on this blog given any more thought to my suggestion about testifying before Congress on the need for testosterone replacement therapy? In all seriousness, it has been shown to be very beneficial to men’t health and fair is fair. Certainly your health is as important as women’s.
If Obama could mandate health insurance companies cover men and women getting season tickets to the local professional sports teams at no charge. It would not only work as a contraceptive but unlike the contraceptive mandate it would also slow the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.
Truthseeker,
If you knock up a prostitute, I’m afraid you’d have a familial obligation to her instead of your wife. That was a very tacky comment.
Truthseeker,
What exactly has Sandra Fluke done to you? Maybe you dislike birth control but you can at least acknowledge the truth that the testimony was not about having too much sex so much as the benefits of birth control for women’s health overall. You can also acknowledge the fact that she has been extremely classy and gracious through all of the ad hominem, misogynistic attacks against her (led by a man who has a much larger platform than he should and for some reason feels that it’s okay to tell a young woman he’s never met that he has a right to a video tape of her having sex).
We may never agree on birth control. I’ve accepted that and am more interested in peace with you now so that we can focus on doing at least something positive in this world. But you have to acknowledge what Fluke was actually saying. Implying that this is all about sex is demeaning toward women as a whole. Why don’t we talk about something relevant to abortion and how to solve this problem? There are topics that we can find common ground on- say abortion and what we need to cover (whether prenatal care or children’s healthcare) to reduce it.
New York passed similar legislation less than 10 years back – the Catholics sued – their complaint was rejected by the state supreme court, the appellate division, and then in a unanimous decision, the NY court of appeals. The Supremes (federal level) had their shot of taking it, but didn’t take the case, letting the NY final decision stand.
In Catholic Charties vs Dinallo – it was ruled “ that the organizations were not being placed in the position of approving birth control, any more than any other employer that provides health coverage is deemed to express “approval of every medication or treatment used by the employees.” The California Supreme Court has also rejected a challenge by Catholic Charities to that state’s similar law.”
Mary:
I like your ideas. Men should get some free goodies too.
Ex:
If what you say is true, now would be a good time for SCOTUS to rule once and for all for the rights of religious based organizations.
The MSM handling of this issue is a terrific example of the fundamental dishonesty/agenda driven propaganda of the leftist media orgs. However, their influence is steadily declining as we make great strides each passing year with the establishment and growth of news gathering organizations that do not subscribe to the MSM lies and leftist propaganda mold.
It is wonderfully liberating to turn the MSM off, ignore them, and instead support groups that actually attempt to report fact based news. Obviously we cannot ignore the MSM completely but we have to keep their pathetic, manipulative and spin based “news” coverage in perspective.
Jerry – if I made something up, it would be much more exciting than what I made up!
My understanding, and a legal mind would be able to speak much more to it – was a case in 1990 regarding native americans fired from state jobs for using peyote. With that case, a more definable line was drawn in regards to religious freedom vs a legal statute.
xalisae,
Perhaps I was wrong in thinking Obama could somehow mandate us consequence free sex.
Vannah,
Fluke has a history of ‘being in bed’ with the birth control industry. I am not ‘buying’ it. Women don’t get sick and die without birth control. The negative effects of ingesting high doses of hormones that disrupt a women’s cycle to the point that they don’t ovulate as much and don’t menstruate IMO is likely to have it’s own negative (if not dire) health consequences. So if you want to debate birth control as a women’s health issue by all means please do. But don’t insinuate that it is even healthy for women.
To me it really comes down to a very simple question for you Vannah. If women (Ms. Fluke for example) don’t want the government involved in their sex life then why would they want the government to mandate their contraception coverage? Why not just allow them to buy a plan that covers it and let other people buy plans without it?
As much as the MSM and Planned Parenthood and the contraceptive industry would like to mandate everybody in the US who sells health insurance to include contraception it is so WRONG on it’s face value. Supposedly Obamacare was all about government run health exchanges. Now it is government mandates on private insurers. Get the government the hell out of our personal lives!
“My understanding, and a legal mind would be able to speak much more to it – was a case in 1990 regarding native americans fired from state jobs for using peyote. With that case, a more definable line was drawn in regards to religious freedom vs a legal statute.”
That case is Employment Division v. Smith, and yes, the Supreme Court determined that the Free Exercise Clause does not require the government to provide exemptions for religious organizations or people when their beliefs clash with neutral, generally applicable laws.
So no, nobody’s First Amendment rights are being trampled here.
Thanks Joan – if I read right, Scalia wrote the decision, correct?
test
xalisae,
Perhaps I was wrong in thinking Obama could somehow mandate us consequence free sex.
Certainly you were, since there is no such thing, and your thinking that you would be able to ditch your familial obligations to a woman who you put in a family way simply because you weren’t the only one bedding her is despicable. Let me tell you something, buddy, she can ho all she likes, but in that situation you would be ho’ing WITH HER, and it takes two to tango, sport. The second that paternity test turns out “You ARE the father!” Maury Povich-style, you’re going to be MADE to be responsible in a court of law, sir. That someone claiming themselves to be Pro-Life could even think of a situation in which he feels he would have no obligation to his offspring is reprehensible.
And for the record, think that the mandate would be found unconstitutional and should be repealed.
“Thanks Joan – if I read right, Scalia wrote the decision, correct?”
Yes, Scalia wrote the majority opinion.
Vannah, respecting the instiution of marriage by refraining from recreational sex is one way to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Would you agree with this statement?
The problem with the “Contraceptive” discussion, and Ms Fluke’s testimony in particular, is the use of incorrect and inaccurate terminology. If OCs are taken for medical purposes they should not be called contraceptives since that just confuses everyone. However, we should also not tell people that when contraceptives are being used as contraceptives that they are really for medical purposes – that becomes a lie of omission. Ms. Fluke’s desire for “exceptions” is admirable but not clear enough. She should be demanding clear definitions and not exceptions, and she should not be demanding this clarification from politicians but from the medical community. This is not a problem created by the legislators but by the drug companies and the medical community, or by the Left who want to blurr the lines between contraception and medicine.
Truthseeker, don’t worry about the prostitute scenario because if she is on the Pill she will never know if she aborted her (and your) child anyway.
xalisae,
You are right about about the familial aspect. But you should be directing that anger at Fluke not me because she is the one having sex on birth control so we can assume Fluke’s need for contraceptives is being driven by an unwillingness to start a family at this time. I try not use sarcasm but in this case I was just using sarcasm.
The irony here is that the same people who say this:
“Get the government the hell out of our personal lives!”
are also 100% in favor of vaginal ultrasound probes for anybody wanting an abortion.
I’m just saying, I’d put an asterisk by the “Get the government the hell out of our personal lives!” statement.
Vannah,
If a woman wants to use birth control, fine. Let her and her spouse or partner set aside a couple of dollars a day, about $3, to pay for their supply at the end of the month. Around or less than the cost for a cup of Starbuck’s. Big freaking deal.
This is something we have congressional hearings over? Like I said before, what next? Congressional hearings about jock spray and tampons??
Obama is accomplishing exactly what he set out to do and I don’t believe Ms.Fluke’s testimony at this time is any coincidence. Nor do I for a minute believe that Fluke and Friends were blissfully ignorant of where the Catholic Church and its institutions stand on this issue and they made the choice to attend a Catholic institution.
That’s as ridiculous as my saying I was shocked that a Jewish owned butcher shop sold only Kosher meat, and about as believable.
EGV 3:42PM,
The people who demand the gov’t get out of their personal lives are also the people who demand the gov’t(taxpayers) pay for their abortions and birth control.
Indeed an irony.
Ex-Gop
From what I can see there is at least one difference between requiring people to pay for other people’s contraception and requiring people to pay for the ultrasound of the unborn so that a pregnant woman can have informed consent. The person who requires contraception can speak-up for themselves; the unborn cannot. In addition, the ultrasound is for the benefit of the women as well as the pre-born, ensuring that she receive the highest care. Contraception, in the strict sense of the word, is not medically necessary unless one considers pregnancy a disease/illness.
Tyler – all I’m saying is that folks on both sides of the aisle are big fans of government mandates, regulations, and intrusions in select instances.
The irony here is that the same people who say this:
“Get the government the hell out of our personal lives!” are also 100% in favor of vaginal ultrasound probes for anybody wanting an abortion.
Ex-RINO,
I also think hormonal contraception should be way more regulated. No way the government should be pushing this crap on minors over the objection of parental authority. I want the government the hell out of our lives. I want the government regulating scum like the abortion industry to make sure women get informed consent prior to having abortion commited on them. my understanding is that vaginal ultrasound probes prior to killing the fetus provides a woman with some level of additional information that could prevent complications due to the pregnancy. Isn’t that a good thing when doctors are involved and they perform any pre-op testing that could help them during the operation?
truth -
“I also think hormonal contraception should be way more regulated.” 4:30pm
Me – ”all I’m saying is that folks on both sides of the aisle are big fans of government mandates, regulations, and intrusions in select instances. ” 4:04pm
That’s all I was saying – thanks for backing it up.
Tyler – all I’m saying is that folks on both sides of the aisle are big fans of government mandates, regulations, and intrusions in select instances.
Ex-Gop, if that is what you saying then you are not making a significant point. In fact, you are misleading people by trying to equate laws that actually protect individuals with laws that are infringments on a person’s religious liberty. For example, the “mandate” to require individuals to get a driver licence is not meant to infringe upon that person’s liberty but to protect the citizens from individuals who do not have the requisite skill to drive. Furthermore, there would not be a need for a “mandated” ultrasound if all parents simply wanted their children, the parents would be asking for the ultrasound on their own. It is only because there is a false “liberty” (abortion) on the books, that this corrective and protective law is required. It seems women who go for an abortion are not powerful enough to demand that the Doctor provide them with proper care.
Tyler -
You might disagree with me, but the point I make transcends significance – it is true. A mandate or government regulation is a law that forces people to do something, or do something in a certain way. In all cases presented, folks are using mandated government regulations to control or force behavior. Case closed.
I just enjoyed the comment regarding getting the government the hell out of people’s lives. It was ironic.
Ex-RINO, you not only need some reading comprehension lessons but you also need to stop projecting on me like you did with your comment at 3:42 stating that I am for government mandates. Nowhere did I say I am for government mandates. Like Mary said above; it is the people who demand the gov’t(taxpayers) pay for their abortions and birth control and Obamacare etc. that like government mandates. While reading below please take note of the bold and italicized and underlined words I use and pay careful attention that the word regulate is not the word mandate
My position is that I am for government regulating freaks like Planned Parenthood and Kermit Gosnell so they aren’t drugging and mutilating women and children. I said I am against government mandating (take note again) that contraceptives be passed out in schools.
If you don’t know the difference between a government that mandates people do things and a governemnt that regulates with laws to protect the citizens inalienable rights then that explains a lot.
Sorry truth – started a response but you then edited your response…
Glad to clarify/explain things for ya.
Do you not know the difference between a government that mandates people do things and a governemnt that regulates with laws to protect the inalienable rights of it’s citizens?
So truth – you are not okay with the government mandating that people in an insurance pool have their money go to certain products, but you are okay with the government mandating taxpayer coverage going for certain things – regulatory bills and such? Am I understanding that right?
I am not OK with the governement mandating anything. I am not OK with the government regulating anything with laws except those laws which fulfill their duties as outlined in the Constitution and protect a persons inalienable rights as described in the Bill of Rights.
If the government came out and said that all women have to be on birth control do you think women would object to this? What if this government clarifies their statement so that it is understood that this government does not mean that women can’t be pregnant or that women can’t have children, but only that they must be on birth control, is this revised statement more preferable? (This government doesn’t go on to explain that is unlikely that as a women you will get pregnant or have children if you are on birth contro, This government does not also reveal that their goal is to reduce the number of children being born.)
What if the same government recongizes that they cannot mandate that all women be on birth control so instead they use reverse pyschology and decalre that birth control is a privilege and a right. Do you think more women would take birth control if its legality were framed in this fashion? Do you think this Government would get more compliance from women by using reverse psychology?
Why are Western governments promoting the medication of women?
Mary,
I read (or skimmed through a headline ) that Ms. Fluke has long been an activist and chose Georgetown specifically to better suit her activism.
“You might disagree with me, but the point I make transcends significance – it is true. A mandate or government regulation is a law that forces people to do something, or do something in a certain way. In all cases presented, folks are using mandated government regulations to control or force behavior. Case closed.
I just enjoyed the comment regarding getting the government the hell out of people’s lives. It was ironic. “
Ex-Gop, due to the paucity of the english language, I can only say that you are stating a platitude rather than a Truth.
Hi Jerry 1:26PM
Maybe you and some of the more mature members of this blog like Doug and Ken (come on guys, it beats the alternative) can get together and demand that Princess Pelosi hold a congressional hearing. Maybe you can even get Obama to hurtle another thunderbolt from Mt Olympus, this time decreeing that insurance must cover TRT.
Then you guys can concoct some sob stories. I would suggest prostate problems or abdominal flabbiness, and the emotional trauma and physical problems you are forced to endure. Just a suggestion mind you. I mean TRT does provide important health benefits and look how you suffer the tortures of hades if you don’t get it.
Next some tales of financial hardship, economic woe, and socioeconomic unfairness wouldn’t hurt.
You can also proclaim your profound ignorance of the fact that TRT wasn’t covered by insurance and were forced to leave your prescription at the pharmacy. You were just so humiliated and traumatized, and had no clue what to do next.
I hope this was helpful. Fair is fair and there is no reason’s why men’s health should take second place or be completely disregarded.
Well, I do grow a pathetic beard. But I wouldn’t discuss this with my doctor, much less Bela Pelosi. :)
“… the emotional trauma and physical problems you are forced to endure.”
Mary, I think the government needs to pay for some mental health treatment for me after I found out from Heather I’m too old to model after she mentioned how shallow people in society see 25 as too old for modeling. Loved that post Heather.
“I am not OK with the governement mandating anything.”
Pure food and drug laws? Child labor laws? Medical and professional licensing? Aviation safety? Construction standards?
The list of landmark society-building legislation and regulation in the interest of the general welfare goes on and on.
And you oppose that?
“Truthseeker,” you’re not only out of the mainstream, you’re off the reservation.
Hi Hans Johnson and Eric,
See, I knew you guys could come up with some great sob stories. :)
mp
truthseeker made a distinction between regulations and mandates.
Tyler – it’s a bit of a fine line that truth has offered – for instance, if the government simply said that any health care facility that received federal funds (medicare dollars) had to do something – that would be a regulation and not a mandate (since it is a two-sided street) – and I’m quite sure truth doesn’t believe that, based on previous conversations.
mp,
You must be skimming. See my post at 5:14
Hi Hans Johnson, 5:16PM
I read something like that as well. Also that she was well aware of the contraceptive policy at the grad school and made her choice based on that.
Also, if we had real journalists, maybe they would check out the sob stories. I don’t think its unreasonable to expect some kind of documentation of these alleged incidents. And how is it everyone informs Ms Fluke of their medical mishaps?
Especially the story about the gay student with polycystic ovaries who couldn’t afford her BCP prescription or suddenly discovered it was no longer covered, her ovarian cyst then blew up sending her to the ER and necessitating the removal of the ovary. She will now be unlikely to give her parents the only grandchild they could have ever had. Ah, yoohoo Ms. Fluke, women have two ovaries, that means she has one left enabling a pregnancy.
With polycystic ovaries the likelihood of pregnancy is decreased, not to mention being on the pill as well. Also, what would have happened if she hadn’t gotten pregnant as soon as she got off the pill, a very likely scenario. Would her ovarian cysts have ruptured?
Needless to say, I would want to see some bigtime medical documentation on this alleged incident.
Jill,
Can you or anyone tell me…
In the cartoon labeled “The Preppers”, what is in the jar on the woman’s lap?
“Needless to say, I would want to see some bigtime medical documentation on this alleged incident.”
Well, perhaps Rush could have obliged, but he was too busy painting Ms. Fluke as a slut.
LS, I assumed it was a fetus. I don’t know why people would hoard fetuses, though.
My dad is a prepper. Incidentally. I probably wouldn’t disclose this publicly except I have had a couple drinks as part of a major work victory celebration and I am feeling both secure and, now that I’m back home, lonely. He left my mom in August after 40 years of marriage. Not explicitly because of his prepper-ness but in part due to it. He says she doesn’t understand the coming changes and needs and adaptations. He wants to move to Ecuador and become self-sufficient.
My main concern is that his mental health is taken care of. I worry about early-onset dementia, and no one left to recognize the signs now that he has completely pushed my mom away. I’m the only child left in the area, since my sisters live far away. I spend every day off (every Tuesday, except when I’m working side jobs) with my mom and I have dinner with my dad twice a week, to make sure they’re both ok, mentally and emotionally. It’s exhausting. My mom is distraught as the divorce proceedings progress and my dad just talks about how things are falling apart – the economy, the world, society; everything except our family.
People are weird.
Ah, yoohoo Ms. Fluke, women have two ovaries, that means she has one left enabling a pregnancy.
Ah, yoohoo Ms. Mary, you’ve got a problem in the sensitivity department.
You’ve got two lungs. If one of them blows up, you can still breathe, right?
You’ve got two eyes, two kidneys, two legs, right?
Alexandra,
…that is how it seemed to me…there are many reasons why someone would want to do that, but i really didn’t want to go there by suggesting what it looked like…
It is a weird cartoon, LS. I suppose they are meant to be “hoarding” abortion, for the coming days when it is taken away along with everything else in the imminent sociopolitical collapse, but I don’t really know.
Mary:
I’m liking your thinking here. Hmmm…at the Pelosi hearing my sob story could be the inherent disability that comes with being a white male in the United States. Everywhere we turn everything is our fault and so we need free vacations to exotic paradises around the world to relieve the anxiety. I’m feeling the emotional trauma!!
Or how about a season’s pass to the Chicago Bulls? I would take that as option B. All health related, of course.
mp, 8:57PM
Oh, do you mean like Bill Maher calling Sarah Palin a c—? Did you have any issues with that mp?
mp 9:07PM
No mp I have a problem in the medical dept. Until I see some documentation, this story has more holes than Swiss cheese. Also, when one ovary is lost, like one kidney or lung, the other compensates, so the lady should be able to conceive.
Furthermore mp, keep in mind to become pregnant the lady would have to go off the BCP. With polycyctic ovaries, pregancy may well not immediately occur, if at all, so likely she could have had this incident occur, assuming it even did, while trying to become pregnant and she would have wound up with only one ovary. Depending on the severity of the polycystic ovaries, its possible she could have never become pregnant. Its also possible she would conceive very easily with one ovary.
So I’m sure you understand mp why I have some reservations about Ms Fluke’s medical knowledge and would like at the very least to see documentation of this alleged incident.
xalisae,
You are right about about the familial aspect. But you should be directing that anger at Fluke not me because she is the one having sex on birth control so we can assume Fluke’s need for contraceptives is being driven by an unwillingness to start a family at this time.
Umm…No. The only anger I direct anywhere is AT YOU because YOU are the one making horrible comments about being immune from any obligations to a child you conceive just because of who that child’s mother might be. Fluke not wanting to start a family is not something bad or wrong. Plenty of women and men feel that way. However, the idea that should a new family member be created, you somehow have no obligation to them (that was a VERY “abortion-minded” thing of you to say, by the way, since that’s the same reasoning behind it) IS WRONG.
“Oh, do you mean like Bill Maher calling Sarah Palin a c—? Did you have any issues with that mp?”
Of course I do. What makes you think I wouldn’t?
But, we’re not talking about Sarah Palin and Bill Maher now, we’re talking about Ms. Fluke and the reason she’s in the public eye, which is Rush Limbaugh.
I agree totally with George Will on this, by the way, but you probably consider Will a closet liberal.
Hi Jerry 9:36PM
I’m afraid your sob story would have to be limited to your inability to get TRT and the terrible medical conditions you endure because of it. Tell them how you must run to the bathroom at least 100 times day and nite.
You would have to describe your trauma and humiliation at discovering at the pharmacy that insurance didn’t cover your prescription. Of course you could have checked what prescriptions your insurance covers before going to the pharmacy, but that’s beside the point. So you must leave your TRT on the pharmacy counter. Already the handerchiefs would be wringing.
Now, you are completely helpless and don’t know where to turn, and you are ready to keel over at any minute, mostly from lack of sleep, but not before you make another bathroom run.
Oh, and don’t forget some economic hardship and socioeconomic inequality to add to the intensity of this drama. Certainly we should know that with everything else you must pay for, toothpaste, toothbrushes, soap, aspirin, nasal spray, shampoo, eye drops, bengay, bandaids, etc. how can you be expected to pay for your TRT? Maybe you could suggest the insurance companies and taxpayers cover these “health needs” as well.
See Jerry, that’s how its done.
Alexandra, I am so very sorry to hear about your family and will be praying for you and your family. This is very traumatic under any circumstances but if there are mental health issues involved as well it is probably even more difficult. I pray you, your dad and your mom can get some help, maybe there is some support group or counseling available. Maybe you and your family are already doing this of course I don’t know but if not please get some help for yourself even if they don’t want it. Take care of yourself and God bless you.
BTW I think the first cartoon was best the second was good as well.
mp,
I was curious as I don’t recall hearing too much outrage over this. Did Maher ever apologize?
Wait I just googled and Maher never intends to apologize. Geez, he also called her a dumb t—.
My goodness mp, you think Obama will return the million dollars Maher just gave to a pro Obama superpac to protest such an outrage? Certainly we will hear outrage from any number of prominent liberals like Ed Schultz, who called Laura Ingraham a “slut”.
I do not advocate name calling and have never been one to listen to George Will. Did he ever comment on Maher?
Ms. Fluke uses the word “contraceptive” for the medication(?) a lesbian women uses for her ovarian cyst. Is it just me, or does anybody else think this is stretching the meaning of the word ‘contraceptive’?
Hi Alexandra,
I am very much in accord with Prolifer L’s beautifully written post. I’m so sad and sorry for you and your family. You showed such kindness and support when I needed it and I wish I could help you in some way. My thoughts and best wishes are with you and your family. You have all been through so much. Know that all of us here love you and care deeply about you.
Ms. Fluke uses the word “contraceptive” for the medication(?) a lesbian women uses for her ovarian cyst. Is it just me, or does anybody else think this is stretching the meaning of the word ‘contraceptive’?
Many women use birth control pills for reasons having absolutely nothing to do with contraception.
My mom uses it for endometriosis. It’s my understanding that if it is prescribed for non-contraceptive purposes, it can be and is covered by insurance plans.
It’s my understanding that if it is prescribed for non-contraceptive purposes, it can be and is covered by insurance plans.
Your understanding is correct.
x:It’s my understanding that if it is prescribed for non-contraceptive purposes, it can be and is covered by insurance plans.
mp: Your understanding is correct.
Then what is Ms. Fluke talking about?
Many women use birth control pills for reasons having absolutely nothing to do with contraception.
Wouldn’t all of these women who need OC for medical reasons be required to get a prescription? Furthermore, wouldn’t it be reasonable that this medication that is prescibed for medical purposes be no longer called birth control pills or OC even if it is the same pill/drug that is used so that there is no confusion? I am sure that the medical conditions experienced by some of these women are quite serious and that most doctors only proscibe this meidcation, that is itself a cancer causing drug, in the most dire situations.
Who wants their consciences violated by the government? The Blunt Amendment is necessary for every individual in the US.
Then what is Ms. Fluke talking about?
Women’s health.
Furthermore, wouldn’t it be reasonable that this medication that is prescibed for medical purposes be no longer called birth control pills or OC even if it is the same pill/drug that is used so that there is no confusion?
Tyler, I am absolutely stunned that you, of all people, have such limited knowledge of these matters.
Seriously.
Your understanding is correct.
Tell me about it.
Birth control pills mask many of women’s health issues, much like putting a band-aid on an open wound. Not good health care, not good for women.
Think of it this way – young boys use steroids and we create legislation, have congressional committees grill sports stars and have PSAs telling boys how horrible it is to take “steroids.” All the while, young women have free access to steroids – hormonal birth control pills – at the local health department, and we are all supposed to blindly chant the refrain that the pill is women’s rights.
When are we, as a society, going to wake up? Chemical sterilization does not equal liberation.
Why are so many women suffering from infertility? Why are the breast cancer rates through the roof? And exactly where ARE the emperor’s clothes? I am one woman who sees that not only is the emperor naked, he looks pretty nasty.
No mp I have a problem in the medical dept. Until I see some documentation, this story has more holes than Swiss cheese. Also, when one ovary is lost, like one kidney or lung, the other compensates, so the lady should be able to conceive.
From the written testimony of Sandra Fluke:
She had to have surgery to remove her entire ovary. She’s not here this morning. She’s in a doctor’s office right now. Since last year’s surgery, she’s been experiencing night sweats, weight gain, and other symptoms of early menopause as a result of the removal of her ovary. She’s 32 years old. As she put it: “If my body is indeed in early menopause, no fertility specialist in the world will be able to help me have my own children. I will have no chance at giving my mother her desperately desired grandbabies, simply because the insurance policy that I paid for totally unsubsidized by my school wouldn’t cover my prescription for birth control when I needed it.” Now, in addition to facing the health complications that come with having menopause at an early age– increased risk of cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, she may never be able to be a mom.
By the way, the President of Georgetown University issued a statement in support of Ms. Fluke:
Fluke was lobbying Georgetown University to change its policy for three years before she became a cause célèbre outcast when the Republican congressman Darrell Issa barred her from an all-male panel on contraception. But her conflict with her Jesuit school did not stop its president, John DeGioia, from eloquently defending his student (who ended up testifying for Nancy Pelosi’s all-Democratic panel).
“She provided a model of civil discourse,” he said in a letter to the school. “This expression of conscience was in the tradition of the deepest values we share as a people. One need not agree with her substantive position to support her right to respectful free expression.”
He branded the reaction of Limbaugh and some other commentators as “misogynistic, vitriolic and a misrepresentation of the position of our student.”
Given this season’s lava spill of hate, it was fitting that DeGioia evoked St. Augustine: “Let us, on both sides, lay aside all arrogance. Let us not, on either side, claim that we have already discovered the truth.”
Maureen Dowd. “Have You No Shame, Rush?” New York Times, March 3, 2012
mp,
I heard this account. Its second hand. Hearsay. I should have specified that I wanted medical documentation which this is not. Anyone can tell a story. Again I remind you the woman has two ovaries. I had one removed as well, as have many women, and it did not cause early menopause, take my word for it. The other ovary takes over the function of the one removed, so the fact a woman has an ovary removed does not in itself mean she will experience symptoms of early menopause.
This woman already has a medical condition that will imitate symptoms of menopause, and even pregnancy, with or without two ovaries and that likely explains the symptoms.
This was in the NY Times? Now that’s a totally unbiased source if I ever heard one.
So Ms Fluke did want to change Geogetown’s policy. That’s what I read as well, and she picked Georgetown specifically for this reason. Weren’t we told it was so she could study law?
You folks are doing an interesting job playing big brother – and while it is highly entertaining - I was wondering if anybody could think of a bigger gift that could have been given Obama than this controversy – at least the Rush Limbaugh part of it?
So you’ve got an issue that is controversial, but early reports are that 60 or so percent favor the President. The GOP is was doing a good job of casting it as a religious liberties issue, and I was starting to feel like they might be able to stay on high ground and save a bit of face in this.
Then you get an old loudmouth guy, one of the most controversial figures in the country, who turns it from religious freedom to a woman’s rights issue. Smart republicans are running from Rush as fast as they can – seems like the only people sticking up for him are those on this board – the rightest of the right. But this is playing wonderfully now for the left, and in the past half dozen/dozen articles I’ve read on the subject, the issue of religious liberty isn’t near the focal point.
It will be interesting to see as newer poll numbers could out later this week – but I can’t think of a bigger gift (short of the GOP actually nominating a multi-millionaire whose flip flopping is ten times worse that of John Kerry…).
EGV 7:40am
Nobody “gave” this gift to Obama, he created this issue by violating the First Amendment. I will give the devil his due, this is exactly what he set out to accomplish.
BTW EGV, have you heard any outrage over the names Sarah Palin was called by Bill Maher? Do you know if Obama refused Maher’s donation?
Also the Obama approval ratings I see are all below 50% and have been for quite some time.
Fluke’s testimony is just a little too well timed here EGV. An effort is being made to play the American public for schumucks, and many of us aren’t buying it.
Furthermore, wouldn’t it be reasonable that this medication that is prescibed for medical purposes be no longer called birth control pills or OC even if it is the same pill/drug that is used so that there is no confusion?
Tyler, I am absolutely stunned that you, of all people, have such limited knowledge of these matters.
Seriously.
mp, so let me get this straight, a woman who has a risk of getting ovarian cysts is prescibed medication that has a 97% effective rate at preventing/(killing – the doctors can’t say this obviously) conception and a very high chance of causing breast cancer and this causes Ms. Fluke to get mad at the politicians and not at the medical community for not finding/creating a drug to treat the problem of ovarian cysts with less serious side effects?
Something doesn’t sound right to me with this Ms. Fluke’s argument? It seems to me that she has chosen the wrong target.
Why are women not demanding better medication instead of demanding a drug that has such serious side effects? Instead of awarning that says : This drug may cause drowisness….the warning for these pooer women is This drug will prevent you from conceiving a child and may give you breast cancer.
Does anybody else see something wrong with this? Ms. Fluke should be picketing drug companies, not congress.
Tyler,
It isn’t just about women’s health, albeit this is a huge thing. I think people try to demonize this pill but all that it comes across as is paternalistic. Women know that they are less likely to be pregnant on the pill; there’s no education needed about that. It’s just generally-held knowledge.
Women’s health, unlike men’s, is so frequently a political issue, and this is nothing more than telling women that they need permission from the government to have access to something like birth control. What’s worse is that all of this talk of women, their bodies, and their medications is framed as “looking out for women.” There are risks with birth control, but how does this then distinguish birth control from any other medication? The benefits outweigh the risks by a large margin.
Put yourself in a woman’s shoes here. Your health as a man is your health as a man. Our health as women is such an issue for Uncle Sam, especially reproductive health because historically reproduction has always been used as a tool of misogyny and a reason to keep women back.
We must distinguish between birth control and abortion, here. Abortion involves two people and even for me it is still complicated, but I’m not going into that now. This is about birth control and has nothing to do with abortion.
This brings back me to my first point: this is not just about the health of women. It’s about giving women the ability to decide their own fates by deciding when they get pregnant and when to use birth control. That’s “what we’re on about.” Maybe men cannot see this as easily because they firmly believe that it’s right to oppose birth control or, more likely, because male privilege obfuscates them on this matter. For women, it’s vital.
If we’re going to talk abortion, it’s causes*, and fighting it, then I think that a blog like this is a great forum. Yet here this threat is a fight over birth control, a losing battle for pro-lifers. Don’t go down that road. Fight instead economic inequality. You’ll have allies here and actually reduce both the number of abortions occuring (thus saving lives) and the number of women and children living in poverty.
*You said earlier that sex inside marriage would reduce the abortion rate, yes? I am not going to try and argue that you are wrong because you clearly feel very passionately about chastity until marriage, but that is only fixing part of the problem. For one, people are going to sleep with each other and there’s nothing you can do about it. People don’t much are about sleeping together outside of marriage. What really causes abortion is not promiscuity but social injustice, domestic violence, male privilege, white privilege, economic inequality, slut shaming, and a lack of access to preventative measures like birth control. While the sexualization of children probably contributes indirectly to a high abortion rate (and we should devote time to fighting the sexualization of children, especially girls), a focus on social justice is where we need to be. We must find a way to talk about abortion and women’s history- most definitely the long fight for health and control that women are still engaged in.
Oy! Sorry for the double post. My computer does that thing where the cursor jumps or pulls up pages that I didn’t click on. I thought that I deleted the first post.
My apologies.
Vannah
Can you please explain what you mean by reproductive health? I have no idea what anyone means by this term anymore.
Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, but I found it difficult to understand your post because I believe it is loaded with key hot button terminology: “paternalistic”, “education”, “women’s health” etc.
There are risks with birth control I agree when it is used as birth control. But when “birth control” is used for some other medical condition the side effects now escalate. Do all women who may get an ovarian cyst really want medication that sterilizes them and increases their chance for breast cancer?
“Women’s Health” needs to be clearly defined so that it does not include abortion, whether you think abortion is ok or not. If “access to abortion” is included in women’s health there is always going to be this confusion surrounding “women’s health” because, from the pro-life perspective a pregnant person is two people, and society must consider the health of two individuals and not just the Mother’s health. Even the pro-choice should recognize the truth of the previous sentence because of its importance to women who do want to have children – the health (mental and physical) of these women is dependent on how the medical community treats the life growing inside her.
I am also not certain that everyone would agree with your statement that the benefits of birth control pills outweigh the health risks. It depends on what kind of birth control you are talking about and if you consider an embryo a person or not, especially in the case of OC birth control.
Birth control is such a big topic. Your desire to separate from abortion is a good start but for the sake of clarity we really need to be more specific and say what birth control we are talking about: condoms, OC (then which kind), IUDs, RU486, etc…
I still don’t understand why BC is vital for healthy women. Can you please explain why? IMO, all women still have the option to simply not have sex, do they not? I am assuming that you are not advocating that all women should be on BC for fear that they may be raped.
Again “fighting birth control” is a loaded comment. We need to know exactly what you mean by birth control?
I agree with you that people will sleep around. However, these people are adults, and they should understand that no technology solution completely eliminates the blessed possibility of getting pregnant. If people simply recognized and accepted the natural purpose of procreation there would be less need for birth control. They merely have to acknowledge the obvious. In fact, the word “intercourse” reveals a lot about how people have separated pregnancy from the sexual act and no longer understand, in a meaningful way, that the purpose of sex is to result in new life.
I heard this account. Its second hand. Hearsay. I should have specified that I wanted medical documentation which this is not. Anyone can tell a story.
Sorry, I can’t help you. I simply quoted Ms. Fluke’s sworn written testimony.
As to New York Times being a so-called “liberal” source, are you suggesting that Maureen Dowd lied and misrepresented what the President of Georgetown University actually said?
If you believe that, I’m afraid there’s no hope.
mp, so let me get this straight, a woman who has a risk of getting ovarian cysts is prescibed medication that has a 97% effective rate at preventing/(killing – the doctors can’t say this obviously) conception and a very high chance of causing breast cancer and this causes Ms. Fluke to get mad at the politicians and not at the medical community for not finding/creating a drug to treat the problem of ovarian cysts with less serious side effects?
Tyler you are arguing with yourself.
Take it up with the National Cancer Institute.
So Ms Fluke did want to change Geogetown’s policy. That’s what I read as well, and she picked Georgetown specifically for this reason. Weren’t we told it was so she could study law?
Where have you gotten the idea that Ms Fluke specifically chose Georgetown to challenge their policy?
She chose Georgetown to study law. The challenge to their policy was secondary.
Sheesh.
Vannah
For the sake of being civil can we stop using the word “paternalistic” as a synonym of “misogynisitc.’ There are good fathers and being paternalistic can actually be a good thing, such as father showing concern for his children.
If we used the word “maternalistic” in the same sense as we use the word “paternalistic” I am sure women would be offended. For example, it would not be accurate, appropriate, or fair if I described, in a derogative fashion, Ms. Sebelius’s contraceptive mandate as being maternalistic.
mp – Ms. Fluke should take it up with the National Cancer Institute – not me. Breast cancer is a serious side effect of OC birth control. If she cares about women she should go there.
BTW, I was probably incorrect about the effectiveness of OC birth control – it is probably a lot less effective.
mp – Ms. Fluke should take it up with the National Cancer Institute – not me.
Tyler, you’re the one claiming the pill causes cancer.
The burden of proof is on you.
mp,
You quoted Fluke’s sworn statement which is only hearsay. So without any kind of medical documentation we have only this second hand account to go on.
So Maureen Dowd quotes the Georgetown bigshot. The fact he likes and supports his student is no shock. I like and respect any number of people who disagree with me on any number of issues. That proves what?
mp,
Here is proof. It is from the American Cancer Society. Please see this page which lists Oral Contraceptives as a Class 1 Carcinogen. Look under for the word “estrogen-progestogen oral contraceptives”.
http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerCauses/OtherCarcinogens/GeneralInformationaboutCarcinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens
BTW, where is your concern for women. Are you trying to tell me that you haven’t done the research about the side effects of oral contraceptives.
mp, 10:56am
Do a little research on the lady. There are varying accounts as to why she chose Georgetown.
You quoted Fluke’s sworn statement which is only hearsay. So without any kind of medical documentation we have only this second hand account to go on.
Then call Congressman Issa’s office and suggest to him that he recall Ms. Fluke and compel her to reveal her friend’s name so he can take direct testimony from her.
Please. Do it. I’d like to see Congressman Issa do that.
So Maureen Dowd quotes the Georgetown bigshot. The fact he likes and supports his student is no shock. I like and respect any number of people who disagree with me on any number of issues. That proves what?
It proves that Ms Fluke’s opinion is regarded highly by the President of Georgetown University and it suggests strongly that Rush Limbaugh is full of ****.
Do a little research on the lady. There are varying accounts as to why she chose Georgetown.
Mary, the words of Georgetown’s president are good enough for me.
Why aren’t they good enough for you?
Joan, Ex-GOP: Is there some good reason you guys never mention Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficiente Uniao de Vegeta ?
Hello?
HELLO?
Here is proof. It is from the American Cancer Society. Please see this page which lists Oral Contraceptives as a Class 1 Carcinogen. Look under for the word “estrogen-progestogen oral contraceptives”.
Tyler, I’ve read the material. I’ve also read the material at the National Cancer Institute.
The risks associated with these drugs seem to be well-understood–they’ve been around for 50 years–and the medical community seems settled.
Now, if you, or Gerard Nadal, have new science, bring it forward for peer review.
That’s the way science is done.
mp, I am not following. So are you now saying that you agree that the media and the Left have covered up the fact that birth control pills are Class I Carcinogens?
Do you think the American Cancer Society is lying?
Being settled is one thing, what they settled on is another. And it seems the community settled on the fact that oral contraceptives are carcinogens.
How does that make you feel? Aren’t you pissed at NOW and NARAL and Planned Parenthood for pushing this crappy medicine on women? Why are these groups ”settling” for cancer causing products?
Do you now see the similarity between the Pharmeceutical companies and Tobacco companies? They both have good PR and marketing strategies selling horribly unhealthy products.
Thanks, Prolifer L and Mary. I am actually pretty embarrassed to have mentioned anything about it now. It’s difficult mostly because I really do think that my father may be having a mental breakdown and possibly some degenerative mental problems, but he is also being very emotionally and financially damaging to my mother and to our family. She was trying to get him to agree to get help for a while but he eventually decided that she was trying to control him by making him feel crazy. Without my mother in his life (which he has made pretty much impossible at this point) I am the only one left to keep an eye on and react to his mental and physical well-being. It’s hard to know when you are doing the right thing. Oh well.
mp, I am not following. So are you now saying that you agree that the media and the Left have covered up the fact that birth control pills are Class I Carcinogens?
You seem to be alleging a conspiracy now, which is totally off the reservation, over the dam. We are living in the United States of America, Tyler, not Communist China.
If there was one iota of truth in such an allegation, there would be an entire herd of lawyers all over it, every day of the week, every week of the year.
Tyler, you are not arguing from a position of strength.
You seem to be alleging a conspiracy now, which is totally off the reservation, over the dam. We are living in the United States of America, Tyler, not Communist China.
If there was one iota of truth in such an allegation, there would be an entire herd of lawyers all over it, every day of the week, every week of the year.
Tyler, you are not arguing from a position of strength.
mp, I guess the Tobacco companies came right out and admitted that smoking causes cancer…oh ya that didn’t happen until their was significant public pressure. .
Furthermore, how exactly is what I am saying a conspiracy theory? The American Cancer Society says that oral contraceptives are Class 1 carcinogens, not me….NOW, Naral and Planned to support and promote the use of oral contraceptinves. This means my only assumption is that the groups NOW, Naral, and Planned Parenthood know that oral contraceptives cause cancer but don’t care that it does so.
Nonetheless, it does not matter if Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and NOW know that oral contraceptives are Class 1 carcinogens. The only that matters, and should matter to mp, is that fact: oral contraceptives are a Class 1 carcinogen.
What do you make of the fact that oral contraceptives are a Class 1 carcinogen?
This comment is a real knee slapper:
The irony here is that the same people who say this:“Get the government the hell out of our personal lives!”are also 100% in favor of vaginal ultrasound probes for anybody wanting an abortion.
What I love about it is the lack of proof. 100% ? Really? Are they comprised partly of the 99% of Catholic women, young and old, who are on birth control? (Granny’s got to take her Pill, lol!) Oh, please do provide us with the proof of these statistics, please do!!!
I’m just so durn impressed with all the facts and stuff that the abortion advocates use. Golly gee! Hey, y’know it’s ok to be promiscuous because the bonobo monkeys are. Pro-lifers want to be in the middle ages, according to libs, but libs want to get back up in the trees!!!
Tyler,
Reproductive health is defined really well by WHO:
Within the framework of WHO’s definition of health as a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being, and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity, reproductive health addresses the reproductive processes, functions and system at all stages of life. Reproductive health, therefore, implies that people are able to have a responsible, satisfying and safe sex life and that they have the capability to reproduce and the freedom to decide if, when and how often to do so.
Implicit in this are the right of men and women to be informed of and to have access to safe, effective, affordable and acceptable methods of fertility regulation of their choice, and the right of access to appropriate health care services that will enable women to go safely through pregnancy and childbirth and provide couples with the best chance of having a healthy infant.
—
Okay, so let’s remove abortion from this definition. Birth control is a fundamental part of reproductive health and should not be treated like some political issue. Is Viagra a political issue? Are vasectomies? No. Ergo, women’s health should not be politicized. That is my point.
Back to abortion:
Abortion concerns, as you mentioned, two people. Therefore when we look at abortion, still in the framework of reproductive health, we must look at how best to make a pregnancy healthy for the mother and the child. In this framework, abortion’s flaw is assuming that the mother’s health is more important than the offspring’s health, unless the abortion was procured because the offspring was unhealthy. So if we are talking about reproductive health and narrowing in on pregnancy, we need to focus on the following questions: How do we improve access to prenatal care? What kind of technology is necessary to make pregnancy as safe as possible for mother and child? On a local scale? National? Global? How many women currently have access to prenatal care? And so on and so forth.
These are questions that I hope/challenge all pro-lifers and all pro-choicers to really ask. We must work together on this, because it is a massive challenge.
The question of abortion extends further because there is the question of whether or not it ought to be legal, and I’m a political agnostic here and rather confused on such matters. That isn’t the point.
The point is that the goal for all of us must be to improve the health of society and we cannot fight, politically, over women’s health (I’ll say it again: birth control is a part of women’s health as it allows women to choose when to get pregnant and/or keeps women’s reproductive organs healthy in other ways) unless we are going to get political about men’s health, too. And since it is just as morally wrong to make men’s health an issue for Republicans and Democrats to spar over, it is morally wrong to make women’s health an issue for two political parties to declare domain over.
Alexandra,
That can be hard. My brother recently had a complete breakdown after leaving the USMC. It was hard, but now that he’s gotten help, it’s much better. It seemed like getting him to get help was the impossible task, though. I sympathize.
Vannah
I have to go but quickly, that is a horrible definition of Reproductive Health: it gets into controlling and regulating a woman’s fertility, and many other moral issues. Furthermore, this definition answers your question as to why everyone is involved in women’s health – the definition of reproductive health is an entirely lopsided and primarily woman focused definition.
Okay, so let’s remove abortion from this definition. Birth control is a fundamental part of reproductive health and should not be treated like some political issue. Is Viagra a political issue? Are vasectomies? No. Ergo, women’s health should not be politicized. That is my point.
Vasectomies and Viagra do not directly affect the life of an unborn child. There is nothing much that a man can do to affect the life of the unborn save: driving a woman to an abortion clinic, or advocating that his girlfriend or wife terminate the life of their child. In short, a man can try to deny responsibility for his children; but currrently, a woman can terminate that child.
mp, I guess the Tobacco companies came right out and admitted that smoking causes cancer…oh ya that didn’t happen until their was significant public pressure. .
Tyler, we are not talking about tobacco, remember? We are talking about birth control pills.
Furthermore, how exactly is what I am saying a conspiracy theory?
Here’s what you wrote:
So are you now saying that you agree that the media and the Left have covered up the fact that birth control pills are Class I Carcinogens?
No, I don’t agree. Your question puts forth the possibility of a conspiracy between two amorphous groups, “the media and the Left,” which I categorically reject.
Are you one of those guys who looks under his bed every night before going to sleep? I’m curious to know.
mp, so what do you make of the fact that oral contraceptives are classified as a Class 1 carcinogen?
Vannah: ’ll say it again: birth control is a part of women’s health as it allows women to choose when to get pregnant and/or keeps women’s reproductive organs healthy in other ways.
That is a sweeping statement and ignores the fact that oral contraceptives are classified as a Class 1 carnicogen. Furthermore, a woman can choose when to get pregnant without the aid of oral contraceptives and indeed all technological forms of birth control: she could use NFP or remain chaste. To argue that technological birth control is the only way a woman can regulate her fertility is plain incorrect.
Vannah: In this framework, abortion’s flaw is assuming that the mother’s health is more important than the offspring’s health, unless the abortion was procured because the offspring was unhealthy.
I am not sure what you meant with this sentence . Perhaps you can elaborate because on the surface the sentence could be interpreted in way that sees you advocating for eugenics of somekind.
So if we are talking about reproductive health and narrowing in on pregnancy, we need to focus on the following questions: How do we improve access to prenatal care?
We also need to determine what kind of pre-natal care and for what purpose. Is the prenatal care going to be used to help the Mother and the Child or simply as tool to allow parents and medical professionals to select which children are desirable and which are not.
What kind of technology is necessary to make pregnancy as safe as possible for mother and child?
Not to be facetious, but here are some technologies that are not safe for the child: an aspirator, RU486, oral contraceptives and a crainoclast.
And since it is just as morally wrong to make men’s health an issue for Republicans and Democrats to spar over, it is morally wrong to make women’s health an issue for two political parties to declare domain over.
Unfortunately Vannah all issues of health are political. The contraception mandate makes this glaringly obvious. If society spends money on contraception that has less money to spend on medical doctors who can perform heart surgery (the number 1 killer of both men and women), etc…Money is a limited resource and if it is spent on one form of health care it is not spent on another. Contraception, in the strict non-medical sense of the word, in my book is fairly low on the list healt care priorities. I would rather see that money given to families with children who have disabilities.
mp, so what do you make of the fact that oral contraceptives are classified as a Class 1 carcinogen?
Tyler, what I make of it is that the chemical molecules in oral contraceptives can, like many things in life, be beneficial or harmful depending on how they are used.
Just like ethanol (beverage alcohol), which is also a Class 1 carcinogen, the molecules have both beneficial and harmful effects.
Do you suggest that we ban drinking?
Vannah says:
“Birth control is a fundamental part of reproductive health and should not be treated like some political issue.
And since it is just as morally wrong to make men’s health an issue for Republicans and Democrats to spar over, it is morally wrong to make women’s health an issue for two political parties to declare domain over.”
This seems to me like a fundamental misunderstanding of what is happening. Birth control is a moral issue. Some politicians want to ignore that there are moral implications of birth control and mandate it’s acceptance as a “fundamental part of reproductive health” by all. Some politicians want to maintain the freedom of Americans to morally oppose birth control and not be forced to accept a morally problematic thing as a “fundamental part of reproductive health”. Politicians seem to be primarily lining up on opposing sides by party line, but not exclusively. As much as some people would like to paint this all as an issue of “women’s health”, it’s not. It’s an issue of freedom of religion and conscience. It’s about the government presuming to mandate that a moral issue is not a moral issue.
Vannah this statement from the WHO is the most moralising:
Reproductive health, therefore, implies that people are able to have a responsible, satisfying and safe sex life and that they have the capability to reproduce and the freedom to decide if, when and how often to do so.
In the above sentence they have tried to insert vague the right to technological forms of birth control. Implicitly they advocate the regulating of fertility is good, and that everyone should be “capable” to reproduce. Why about those persons who are not capable to reproduce, are they considered reproductive unhealthy. Finally what does a “responsible, satisfying and safe sex life” have to do with reproductive health? Who are they to decide what is a “responsible, satisfying and safe sexlife”? And people complain about the Catholic Church.
From now on I will use this quote to show how invasive and moralizing the Secular Left really is.
mp,
You really need to get some facts straight. Darrell Issa’s committee concerned the constitutionality of Obama’s mandate and he invited Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State. A man with the credentials to discuss the matter at hand. An attempt was made at the last minute by Democrats to replace him with Fluke, who had no such credentials. This was not a panel on birth control, as reported by the NYT. That is the reason she was refused by Issa.
She then read her statement to a group of Democrats, which is what was seen by you and the rest of us.
The president of Georgetown supported her right to express an opinion. Big deal.
You really need to get some facts straight. Darrell Issa’s committee concerned the constitutionality of Obama’s mandate and he invited Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State. A man with the credentials to discuss the matter at hand. An attempt was made at the last minute by Democrats to replace him with Fluke, who had no such credentials. This was not a panel on birth control, as reported by the NYT. That is the reason she was refused by Issa.
She then read her statement to a group of Democrats, which is what was seen by you and the rest of us.
My facts are totally straight and I am well aware of the fact that Issa refused to allow her to testify before the full committee, preferring to make it a “church and state” issue. Fluke testified to the Democratic members of the committee.
And, at the end of the day, I don’t care what her testimony was about.
What I care about is that she was made an issue and that Limbaugh attempted to make hay with it by calling her a slut.
Issa and Limbaugh are going to reap what they sowed.
Please rewind the tape.
Tyler, what I make of it is that the chemical molecules in oral contraceptives can, like many things in life, be beneficial or harmful depending on how they are used.
Just like ethanol (beverage alcohol), which is also a Class 1 carcinogen, the molecules have both beneficial and harmful effects.
Do you suggest that we ban drinking?
—-
I have not talked of banning oral contraceptives during our conversation in this thread. Moreover, no Republican politican has advocated this and, indeed, this is not what is being debated on the House floor.
However, in this thread I have pointed that it is harmful for women to consume oral contraceptives on a regular basis. I have also pointed out that it is a medication with serious side effects for those who use it for non-birth control reasons.
So just as I wouldn’t advocate that people consume ethanol on a daily basis, I wouldn’t advocate that people consume estrogen-progestogen on a daily basis, especially without knowing the risk.
Finally, a person who uses oral contraceptives because they are medically necessary is far removed from forcing insurance companies to cover non-medically necessary contraceptives for all women. I think it was unfair for Ms. Fluke to use the scenarios of women in dire situations in order to try to get coverage for those who do not have such a need. She was acting a bit like a crooked magician – trying to steal the people’s money with her slight of hand linguistics/terminology.
I think it is fair to say that Ms. Fluke and the Left are merely upset because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
The medical community weighed the risks and benefits of oral contraceptives; they decided that, if used as directed, they are safe.
End of discussion.
As I said before, if you and Gerard have some new science, produce it for peer review.
Until that time, every objection you raise is just so much speculation and pot-stirring.
Tyler, you know what else are “carcinogens?” Working third shift and hanging out in the sun.
Mary “Until I see some documentation, this story has more holes than Swiss cheese”
You don’t get to see anyone’s medical documentation, those are protected under medical privacy laws, although you can subpoena them if you learn what Sandra’s friends’ names are and see if that works.
If you’re in the habit of calling BS on everybody’s medical complaint, remember the same thing will be done back to you should you ever complain if your aches and pains. We’ll just assume you’re lying.
mp says:
The medical community weighed the risks and benefits of oral contraceptives; they decided that, if used as directed, they are safe. End of discussion.
What? Who is this “medical community”? Oral contraceptives are considered safe for most women and are contraindicated for others. Even Planned Parenthood acknowledges that there are some women that should not take birth control pills:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/who-can-take-pill-19272.htm
What? Who is this “medical community”? Oral contraceptives are considered safe for most women and are contraindicated for others.
Duh.
Would you like to play more word games?
It’s humorous watching the left get tingles up their leg over how this issue is helping Obama like this is going to save his presidency. How sweet it is.
Susan: “Think of it this way – young boys use steroids and we create legislation, have congressional committees grill sports stars and have PSAs telling boys how horrible it is to take “steroids.” All the while, young women have free access to steroids – hormonal birth control pills – at the local health department, and we are all supposed to blindly chant the refrain that the pill is women’s rights.”
Hormonal birth control pills are not the same as performance-enhancing anabolic steroid medications given to young men (which mimic the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone) which increase protein synthesis in the body. Hormonal birth control does not act in the same way. All steroid hormones do not act in the same way.
Objections to birth control pills, absent any medical consensus or outcry from the medical community, is just conspiracy theory nonsense. Doctors are out to “get” women by prescribing them harmful drugs and/or have not discovered the same profound truths you all have because they’re stupid.
There’s an awful lot of “doctors” on here. Where did y’all go to medical school?
Word game? If the “medical community” fails to recognize that there are some women that SHOULD NOT take oral contraceptives, for whom oral contraceptives are NOT “safe”, they would be irresponsible. It can be a matter of life and death, not a game at all. It’s not for the “medical community” to weigh the “risks and benefits”, its for each woman, along with her doctor, to weigh the risks and benefits and decide if oral contraceptives are “safe”. Duh.
Yikes…60 or so messages through the day – let me just hit on the couple that have been addressed directly at me.
Rasqual – There are probably a dozen cases that will be looked at, that one being one of them. In no way was I providing a comprehensive issue of everything I know in regards to supreme court decisions here. The 1990 case though was seen as a pretty big deal in regards to defining the boundaries.
Tyler “There are risks with birth control I agree when it is used as birth control. But when “birth control” is used for some other medical condition the side effects now escalate.”
Wait, huh?
“If the “medical community” fails to recognize that there are some women that SHOULD NOT take oral contraceptives, for whom oral contraceptives are NOT “safe”, they would be irresponsible.”
Feel free to read your package insert.
Mary – in response to your post directed at me…
It is your opinion that Obama violated the first amendment. Remember though, the majority of states have something similar already. Regardless, my point was that this was a gift to the administration, and while Obama gave a year’s notice to sort this out, I’m sure part of that notice was because this would be a politically popular move to independents, and the GOP is playing right into it by calling people sluts and having all male panels to talk about birth control.
On Maher – Obama can’t coordinate, by law, with any sort of Super PAC and donations, so I don’t believe that legally, he could do anything about it. Now, I’ll say this – I believe Maher is a terrible person and I would be fine having him fired – and I believe the same about Rush. Do you believe either should be fired for what they said? I believe both should be. You?
On Obama – a few months ago, he was running even against Romney. Now he’s up 5-10 in most polls. Those are the only numbers that matter come election year. You just need to beat the guy you are up against. The GOP seems to be trying their best to blow it with independents, all while picking a guy who will blow it with their core.
Fluke’s timing might be too odd for you – but try to find a poll in which less than 60% support this decision. And most polls are before this latest information (Rush and Fluke and such) – which is definitely playing better for the Dems. The amount of you folks not buying this – the folks who are willing to stand by and say that Fluke is a slut – you folks are few and far between. I certainly wouldn’t be willing to call her a slut, and seeing so many here that support that – it shows how far right this board is…
Word game? If the “medical community” fails to recognize that there are some women that SHOULD NOT take oral contraceptives, for whom oral contraceptives are NOT “safe”, they would be irresponsible.
You are arguing with yourself, not me.
Oral contraceptives are prescribed and the medical community is decided on their safe use.
If you’re interested in learning more, check out the excellent National Cancer Institute website.
Law: “Tyler, you know what else are “carcinogens?” Working third shift and hanging out in the sun.”
I don’t about working the third shift, but hanging out in the sun is heavily reported by the MSM – when was the last time you heard MSM report about the cancer effect of OCs?
Tyler “There are risks with birth control I agree when it is used as birth control. But when “birth control” is used for some other medical condition the side effects now escalate.”
Law: Wait, huh?
That was poorly worded. I was trying to point out that birth control is always a Class 1 carcinogin no matter for what purpose it is used but that when it is used for a purpose other than birth control it is an unecessary sterilization of women.
mp, 4:55PM
Your facts are not quite straight. The committee testimony was concerning the constitutionality of Obama’s mandate, not birth control. That’s why Barry Lynn was scheduled to testify. A last minute decision was made to replace him with Fluke, who has no credentials to testify. Lynn did.
Fluke did not testify to the full committee. Also the committee was not concerned with contraception.
Face it mp, Obama and the Democrats are playing you and much of the American public for saps.
mp: The medical community weighed the risks and benefits of oral contraceptives; they decided that, if used as directed, they are safe.
End of discussion.
As I said before, if you and Gerard have some new science, produce it for peer review.
Until that time, every objection you raise is just so much speculation and pot-stirring.
___
mp you will have to add the American Cancer Society to your list of pot-stirrers. And we never discussed the fact that many oral contraceptives destroy another human being in the process of sterilizing a woman. And this destruction is done not only without a woman’s knowledge but often without her consent due to lack of knowledge of its abortive element.
law 5:42PM
Medical records can be released with permission by the patient. Also these women are free to come forward and speak on their own behalf.
We hear only stories from Ms.Fluke. I’m sure you are aware that people can say anything, especially when they are not expected to back it up. So until there is some documentation or these alleged victims come forward, we are going on little more than hearsay. That may be all the proof you need, it isn’t for me. Especially when the story sounds a little contrived, which this one does.
By the way law, I’m not calling BS on every medical complaint, I just maintain a healthy skepticism about the testimony of someone with no medical knowledge discussing the medical problems of “someone told me”.
Tyler – a quick jump in here -
Life Training Institute Blog (pro-life) said, and I quote:
“Anyone who believes they know absolutely that OCs cause endometrial changes that result in “chemical abortions” is simply wrong. They don’t. I don’t know for sure either. ”
I’ve thrown that to a few folks on this board, and while there’s evidently research underway to try to prove it, it appears that the above is correct.
Do you agree with the above statement?
mp says:
You are arguing with yourself, not me.
LOL. I’m not arguing at all. Your statement “The medical community weighed the risks and benefits of oral contraceptives; they decided that, if used as directed, they are safe. End of discussion.” is false. The medical community recognizes that there are some women for whom oral contraceptives are not safe. I’ve looked at the National Cancer Institute information before. It only deals with the cancer risks of oral contraceptives. You are aware that there are other risks?
“What really causes abortion is not promiscuity but social injustice, domestic violence, male privilege, white privilege, economic inequality, slut shaming, and a lack of access to preventative measures like birth control.”
Vannah, you’re so full of baloney and nonsense, you should shut your mouth and get back to your room.
EGV 6:07PM
Show me where in the Constitution the president can issue mandates violating the conscience of a religious group and then we will discuss this as my opinion.
Obama gave a year’s notice to sort this out? Well, isn’t that big of him. EGV, he has no damned business issuing this mandate. Understand? He did this to create an issue and give the devil his due, he has succeeded.
Rush apologized. Same for liberal Ed Schultz. Give him credit, he apologized. Maher’s despicable, vile, sexist denegrating of ALL women refuses to apologize. In fact he keeps say it!
Obama could make his outrage known and let it be known to the SuperPacs that no donation will be accepted from Maher. Also, the SuperPac could have refused.
For heaven’s sake EGV the polls change day to day and it depends on which one you look at. In some Romney is only a few points behind.
I don’t think Fluke’s timing is at all odd. Its well orchestrated and planned especially to keep this “contraception” charade alive and well. If most people want contraception who’s stopping them from getting it? I do not advocate name calling, on the right or left. Rush has apologized, Schultz apologized. Drop it.
Sign the petition. I stand with Rush Limbaugh…
http://www.istandwithrush.org/
Mary -
You are talking about this like this is new territory. We’ve had quite a few states already pass similar legislation, and the court challenges have failed. Who knows how this will do – but to say that it is a 100% unconstitutional act is simply ignorant.
Rush apologized on a weekend (which he criticizes Obama for) after saying it, and then spending a few days making it worse (asking for videotapes of people having sex). So you are fine with them saying whatever as long as they apologize? Should Rush get at least the same punishment as Shultz did, who didn’t go nearly as far as Rush?
Vannah: “What really causes abortion is not promiscuity but social injustice, domestic violence, male privilege, white privilege, economic inequality, slut shaming, and a lack of access to preventative measures like birth control. While the sexualization of children probably contributes indirectly to a high abortion rate (and we should devote time to fighting the sexualization of children, especially girls), a focus on social justice is where we need to be. We must find a way to talk about abortion and women’s history- most definitely the long fight for health and control that women are still engaged in.”
—–
I am not certain whether or not the above list are accurate descriptions of the forces that cause or contribute to abortion. However, and this is the hard thing to say, I am 100% certain that the woman who walks into the abortion clinic, sits in the hospital chair, and says “Yes” to the Abortionist who asks her if she would like him/her to proceed is responsible. At the end of the day, women must bear the ultimate responsibility for abortion – why? because they “choose” it.
At the end of the day, you, me, the women’s movement, the government, and the abortionist are not there with the woman after her choice, her abortion. The woman is left to deal with her choice by herself. If she regrets it, no one can bring back that child – not you, not me, not the mighty women’s movement. We are all powerless to bring back life once it is gone. We have the power to destroy, but none of us can resurrect what we destroyed.
Ex-GOP waht does that have to do with what we are talking about?
Jasper..done.
Jasper,
Put away the ad hominem attacks. We don’t need them and we are above them as people. We have to talk this out and focus on arguments. We won’t accomplish anything if everyone resorted to, “And poo on you!”
What is it about my argument that you find so appalling? Tell me why my argument was so morally wrong. I will consider your opinion even if I don’t agree with it and I sincerely hope that you will consider mine.
Tyler,
That definition of reproductive health isn’t invasive. It’s basic and open-ended when referring to reproductive health. You ask what sex had to do with it but keep in mind that you argue that sex is for reproduction and that’s why people should be more responsbile with it (abstinence, NFP). You and I probably agree on the responsibility part. But you don’t have to be engaging in sex to be healthy sexually. You just have to know what you want, know how to protect yourself, respect yourself and your partner, and know when you are ready.
Why is this a matter of the “secular left?” Why isn’t this something that all humans strive for, as even conservatives who do not believe in sex outside of marriage agree, surely, on these things? Do you know when you’re ready? Not until after marriage? Cool. Do you respect yourself and your partner? You feel that that’s only possible in marriage? Cool, too. But some individuals have different ways of looking at it and they are just as valid.
Just out of curiosity, do you look at abortion as more of a problem with sex and moral decay? Or do you think of it in terms that I mention (even if, like Jasper, you hate my using them), like privilege or socioeconomics? Why? I think that we need to establish this first.
EGV,
Legislation is one thing, the people at least can challenge it and write the law so as to accomodate religious beliefs. A presidential mandate another. Show me where in the Constitution the president is given the power to issue religious mandates and you will have won this argument. Face it EGV, he’s acting like a petty tyrant. This is all planned and orchestrated and I hope you come to realize this.
Oh please, get over it about Rush already, would you. Where are your tender sensibilities when it comes to Bill Maher? What do you think would happen if Rush called a liberal woman a “dumb t—” or a c— and then refused to apologize?
What’s the difference between Rush and Howard Stern?
Anyway, I just wanted to say to Alexandra, my heart goes out to you. My best friend is dealing with her dad in a similar way. It’s a tough situation. <3
Vannah
To me reproductive health would consist in making sure the reproductive system is both men and women works properly. A properly working reproductive system in a women would allow her to get pregnant and have children. A propertly working reproductive system in a man would allow him to get a woman pregnant.
My definition does not mean infertile men and women are not able to have intercourse, but intercourse generally has a procreative purpose. Infertile couples do have sex lives but this separate from their reproductive health IMO.
The reason the WHO’s definition of reproductive health is not truthful and not good is because it is trying to divorce sexually intercourse from its procreative purpose, even though it discusses them both. The definition is seeking to expand the definition of what constitutes a sex life – namely, an artificially barren one.
Vannah please be specific on the things you think I should surely agree on.
IMO the problem of abortion is definitely a problem of moral decay (not a problem with sex). The socioeconomic factors can contribute to this moral decay and cause individual women to feel more pressure; however, since these socioeconomic factors can work differently on different women in similar scenarios I ultimately believe that the key contributor to abortion is the person’s/woman’s own moral perception of abortion. So although I would concede that there are probably some socioeconomic factors that make one individual more likely than the next to have abortion – the gift of freedom means every individual has the ability to negate these influences and contributing factors. Each individual woman can give a positive affirmation of new life no matter what their specific socioeconomic situation is.
How does knowing this help you or our discussion in your opinion? How you see the problem of abortion?
Tyler – my assumption was that when you were talking about contraceptives abortive element, I thought you meant you believe contraception causes abortion – thus, my posting.
Mary – the health care legislation stated that certain minimum standards could be put in plans. If you want to run with this argument that you’ve got going, then you should be against the other 50 or so things that are mandated to be covered in plans.
You asked about my “tender sensitivities” on Maher – so I’ll repost what I did just a bit ago, and you can answer this time:
“I’ll say this – I believe Maher is a terrible person and I would be fine having him fired – and I believe the same about Rush. Do you believe either should be fired for what they said? I believe both should be. You?”
Now, part of me is simply excited to see Rush is still alive – I’m well under his average listening age (I believe the average age is 67) – so I wasn’t sure he was still out there!
For the record, I also don’t believe Rush apologized – he did one of those “I should have used better words”. If you want to see an apology, see Schultz’s apology.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1484373051001/christian-club-force-to-allow-non-christians-as-leaders/?playlist_id=931078428001
Anybod who doesn’t believe Fluke is nothing but an Obama/Planned Parenthood plant should explain to me how a smart girl like that who could get into all kinds of schools and couldn’t afford to go to the Target 3 miles from where she lives and buy her birth control/abortificients when they only cost $9 a month there.
http://nation.foxnews.com/birth-control/2012/03/05/9mo-birth-control-pills-available-target-3-miles-georgetown-law
Ex-GOP,
Rush apologized, but Fluke refused to accept it. She’s the one who looks foolish. Rush will bounce back. His advertisers are the losers in this.
truthseeker,
I’m waiting for my free suntan lotions, sunglasses, and multivitamins. All preventive healthcare.
I agree JanetforLife
I thought you meant you believe contraception causes abortion
It most definitely does. Not 100% of the time; but it is scientific FACT that it hardens the uterine lining and makes it more difficult for the embryo to implant.
Janetforlife -
I don’t know what news outlets and websites you visit, but Fluke isn’t the one looking foolish here. Sure, in some circles (like this site), but overall, this has played very, very badly for the GOP and Rush. When you have the children of the party (Newt, Palin, etc…) fighting with the adults of the party (George Will) – you’ve got problems.
Truth – I’ll simply post this in regards to the FACT statement…
http://lti-blog.blogspot.com/2008/06/dangers-of-overstating-our-case-serge.html
Now that missy Fluke has publicly rejected Limbaughs attempt at an apology I believe it would be entirely appropriate for Rush to apologize to promiscuous persons everywhere for associating them with a progressive pan handler.
Still waiting for the proud parents [or siblings, childhood friends, significant other, life partner, etc.] to ‘rush’ to the defense of their damsel in distress.
[Dudley Doright, where are you?!?!]
I know Ann ‘wrinkles’ Richards would be at Cecilles side if she had been publicly impugned.
But ‘wrinkles’ has an acceptable excuse. She’s been dead for several years.
I have to admit Fluke was an improvement over Barry Lynn. He looks like he has been dead for several years.
And just came across another issue in missy Flukes public advocacy portfolio: Employers and insurance companies should be required to pay for ‘gender re-assignment surgery’. No mention of who should be responsible to pay for the third toilet.
http://mrctv.org/blog/sandra-fluke-gender-reassignment-and-health-insurance
Before long the ABA will begin procedures to disbar missy Flukes for giving lawyers a bad name.
Maybe we’ve discovered the makings of the next MSNBC maddcoww.
“When you have the children of the party (Newt, Palin, etc…) fighting with the adults of the party (George Will) – you’ve got problems.”
At least the conservatives have a adult.
Ex-RINO,
He doesn’t deny the FACTs that I stated which is that the high doses of hormonal contraceptives women ingest to disrupt ovulation also cause the thinning of the utering lining. He even goes a step further and states that women who ingest high doses of contraceptives also have higher ectopic pregnancy rates. There is no scientific debate to those FACTs.
Truth -
All I know is that your summation is much different:
Yours – “It most definitely does.”
His – “anyone who believes they know absolutely that OCs cause endometrial changes that result in “chemical abortions” is simply wrong. They don’t.”
And just came across another issue in missy Flukes public advocacy portfolio:
Employers and insurance companies should be required to pay for ‘gender re-assignment surgery’.
No mention of who should be responsible to pay for the third toilet.
http://mrctv.org/blog/sandra-fluke-gender-reassignment-and-health-insurance
If we have to pay for their mutilation, are we also responsible to pay their bill at Victorias Secret?
Only if they sell chastity belts. I would donate to that.
All this ingestion of massive doses of manufactured hormones to frustrate a normal biological function seems very ‘unnatural’ and very unwise to me.
But you liberal ladies avoid those trans fats and red dye #3.
Remember to walk slowly and drink lots of pure mountain spring water.
You would think the make up folks at the networks would at least suggest that missy Phluck [her pronunciation] would do something with her hair.
It looks like she just woke up from a nap.
[I remember a spokeslady from the Seattle chapter of the ACLU had the same sort of look.]
I am not wiling to pay for her pharmaceuticals or her elective surgery, but I would spring for a one time trip to the hair stylist.
.
If the gender benders are unhappy with their ‘re-assignment’ are we then on the hook to have it reversed or modified to androgyny?
Surely there must be a limit somewhere without it being discriminatory.
What if they are not happy with being ‘human’.
Do we have to cater to that fetish as well?
Tyler,
Thanks for the response. I’m glad that you want to talk. I may take some time to get back to you (if I plow forward in this essay, which is thus far going full steam ahead). I’ll do that tonight when I get to a break. My sincerest hope is that we can come to some sort of dialogue that, even if we don’t all run off and start living in the woods with flowers in our hair, will get two people talking. Then maybe two more. Then maybe we could all talk rather than yell a lot.
Ken,
We aren’t opposed to “normal biological functions.” Women just want to be able to control their own health. “Liberal ladies” have a lot of opinions that differ sharply from one another and some of those opinions involve birth control. But we all just want respect for women, the ability to decide when to get pregnant in the first place (again, this is about birth control, not abortion), and which medications to take to handle our own health concerns. That is no threat to you. That is no threat to children. Your health as a man is important, too, it’s just not politicized to the extent that our health is. No one tries to talk men out of Viagra on the grounds that it might be bad for them and we’re just looking out for you all.
This really shouldn’t be a divisive issue. We can agree on some things, maybe not birth control, but can we at least agree that so long as no one’s rights are violated birth control should not be anyone’s business but a woman’s?
Missy Phluck is the perfect poster child for progressive demcoRATs.
I hope her 15 minutes of fame is extended for a few more days so we can thoroughly vet her.
She is as radical mr. bo-jangles crazy old uncle jeremiah wright.
There have to be some video tapes out there somewhere.
Bette make some room under bo’s campaign bus.
1. “Your health as a man is important, too, it’s just not politicized to the extent that our health is.
2. “No one tries to talk men out of Viagra on the grounds that it might be bad for them and we’re just looking out for you all.”
=============================================================
1. I am not sure who you think ‘poiticized’ women’s health. But when anyone starts demanding that I pay their way and uses the government to get at my wealth, then it is they who have ‘politicized’ the issues not me. Your complaint is that I hit you back first.
2. Least of all their wives or girl friends. Vanity, vanity, vanity. Age gracefully guys and gals. Be comfortable in your own skin, no matter how wrinkled or sagging it may be.
It’s humorous watching the left get tingles up their leg over how this issue is helping Obama like this is going to save his presidency. How sweet it is.
Two apologies in as many days and nine advertisers gone so far. Did you send him a check?
:)
Oh, sorry, ten gone if you count Allstate.
:)
We all pay for things we dislike. Pacifists pay for wars, for instance; I’m a pacifist and I have paid for the Iraq War. Birth control is part of many, many things that we pay for; at least it’s positive.
Vannah,
I am not ‘catholic’.
I don’t have a problem with anyone else preventing conception.
God might, but that is between them and GOD.
HE might not want them to conceive, but that’s between them and HIM.
But I wonder how many women have ever stopped to consider how much our culture has manipulated them into waging war against their own bodies with chemicals.
It just ain’t natural.
“Two apologies in as many days and nine advertisers gone so far. Did you send him a check?”
Why would we send Rush a check. He had already been paid. Rush is responsible for his own words and deeds.
Maybe missy Phluck will be an advocate for Rush and lobby Congress to compensate him for the loss of revenue he has experienced for simply exercising his free speech.
Poor man has to pay his bills and he just can’t make it on his after sufferring this grave financial set back.
Baby, can you spare two or three billion dollars. You can just print some more. Where is your compassion. Gender benders aren’t the only ones who need help.
Poor old Rushbo. His story ain’t playin’ in Peoria.
Editorial, Peoria Journal Star, March 5, 2012
“Our View: Enough from the king of cads and trash talk”
This nation has too many of these pour-gasoline-on-the-fire guys, like Limbaugh, who find themselves with a microphone, poisoning the national discourse and laughing all the way to the bank. Until now, perhaps. Consider this just one more inevitable self-immolation.
Some examples of some of missy Phlucks ‘public advocacy’ lawyering:
Sandra Phluck and her co-editor describe two forms of discrimination in benefits they believe Female Homosexual, Male Homosexual, Bixesexual, Transgender [LGBTQ] individuals face in the work place:
Their “prime example” of the first form of discrimination? Not covering sex change operations:
This so called “prime example” of discrimination is expounded on in a subsection titled “Gender Reassignment Medical Services” starting on page 636:
This is exaclty why the both the Senate and the House have a vetting process before they allow folks to testify.
They want to cull out the loons. [Too bad they can’t cull out Maxine Waters from the Committees.]
The most productive thing Issa could do now is subpoena missy Phluck and her parents and expose what a whack job she is.
Missy Phluck is prime example of someone who has been educated way beyond her intellingence.
Missy Phluck is not just knavishly naive, she has sufferred a psychotic break.
I pray that she hears the ‘pop’ before the next moonrise.
I apologize to the insane and promiscous everywhere for the lack of an appropriate pigeon hole in which to place missy Phluck which does not reflect on their character.
Gee, I wonder why Mitt Romney isn’t saying much about poor El Rushbo?
But wait, Rushbo’s gig is the most profitable program on ClearChannel.
And Mitt Romney’s Bain Capital took ClearChannel private last year.
Could it be that it’s not about free speech and the 1st Amendment, but about money?
Naw, couldn’t be. But, what a great presidential debate question!
Break time.
Tyler,
I have two main complaints with your arguments. The first is that you have a limited view of reproductive health. It’s bigger than that. Helping people who wish to be fertile is a part of reproductive health, as is working for healthy pregnanjcies. Human reproduction spans a long time. Reproductive health even includes sterilization is men want vasectomies or whatnot. It’s a big topic and it covers all things related to reproduction, not just conception. The job isn’t over once conception starts. That’s when the job of healthcare workers begins, making sure that the baby develops in a healthy way, that the mother is well, et cetera. Would you not count this as vital to reproductive health?
The second is your comment on personal choice even in difficult circumstances. We agree, at least in part, here. But you are neglecting that women are not privileged like men. Many WOC have abortions because of white privilege. To say, “Just make a decision and work hard!” is coming from a position of privilege. Try walking in a single mother’s shoes and you will see that your argument was moot.
Ken,
Enough with the cruel jokes about Sandra Fluke, her hair, and transgendered men and women (who could not possibly have less to do with the topic). She’s not a “whackjob” or a “slut;” she is a human being who made her case and made it intelligently. She did an extraordinarily brave thing and has taken heat from people who have never met her but feel that they have a right to comment on her sex life and her hair. Really? Her hair? Move on, please.
mp,
Rush will have no fewer listeners tomorrow then he had last week. Advertisers buy spots based upon the number of potential customers who get exposed to their products.
Rush will have no fewer listeners tomorrow then he had last week. Advertisers buy spots based upon the number of potential customers who get exposed to their products.
Truthseeker, you’re evidently not aware of how the EIB-ClearChannel deal is structured.
ClearChannel gets Rushbo free. They pay nothing, nada, zero, zip. The advertisers pay Rushbo and he allows ClearChannel to dump in their own ads.
So, the cash that Rushbo is losing is going straight to EIB, not ClearChannel. It doesn’t matter how many listeners he has tomorrow.
Ain’t capitalism grand!? I just love the marketplace. It takes care of everything and everyone, in its own way.
Vannah,
She is definitely a whackjob and has an entitlement mentality who went before congress andis now going on the talk circuit including the View this morning. I don’t see her as brave in any way. Women who have what it takes to live within their own means are brave. Fluke is just an opportunist trying to score.
Ain’t capitalism grand!? I just love the marketplace. It takes care of everything and everyone, in its own way.
Rush could spend the rest of his days sitting on a beach sipping Long Island Two-if-by-Teas and his audience will probably only get bigger. What is your point?
Ex-GOP: “Rasqual – There are probably a dozen cases that will be looked at, that one being one of them. In no way was I providing a comprehensive issue of everything I know in regards to supreme court decisions here. The 1990 case though was seen as a pretty big deal in regards to defining the boundaries. ”
You cited the weakest of the “probably dozen” and neglected the strongest.
In other words, you’re whistling past a graveyard.
I sympathize.
Vannah
Reproductive health cannot be as a large as you would like. To me a conception of reproductive health can become so all encompassing that it is loses its disintinctiveness and meaning. One needs to be specific. Helping infertile couples could count as reproductive health, of course, and is important; however, one needs to examine how the infertile couple will be helped. We don’t want to help one couple with their reproductive health while killing human beings in the process. Thankfully with the topic of reproductive health one can get specific about the techniques or procedures used. Neither Democrats nor Republicans need to be vague on this topic, unless they want to mislead the People.
IMO sterilizations for men or women should not be considered reproductive health. IMO sterilizations are the antithesis to reproductive health. I believe sterilizations are their own topic. I would consider sterilizations more akin to cosmetic surgery – it is lifestyle choice. There is no health reason as to why someone should get sterilized.
I would consider the health services provided to women from the time of conception to birth prenatal care and not part of reproductive health, per se.
Vannah I don’t under this following statement by you:
“But you are neglecting that women are not privileged like men. Many WOC have abortions because of white privilege. To say, “Just make a decision and work hard!” is coming from a position of privilege.”
First, please understand I understand that being a parent requires great sacrifice. Second, I never said my advice would be to “Just make a decision and work hard!” It is not fair to imply I said something when I didn’t. Also I take it that you are imagining a scenario where a single women is expecting a child. This women could have a lot of different options other than simplying working harder - adoption, firends, family, a boyfriend, returning to school, working less (flextime arrangements), moving, selling luxury items (if any), social assistance. However, ultimately the plight of this single mother reveals why along with any economic changes society there needs to be a moral change withing society. The society’s view on sex needs to change or our society is always going to have more single mothers than the society would like. We should not be telling people that they are too poor to have children, we should be making a society where everyone can afford to raise children. So please tell me how a woman’s socioeconomic situation negates her free will and her responsibility. Often times we can easily find two women in similar situations make completely different choices – how does your argument that socioeconomic determines a woman’s actions account for these frequent differing choices?
In addition, how can the pro-choice side argue that abortion is a woman’s choice and similutaneously argue that some woman have no choice? Isn’t the pro-choice implicitly arguing for a specific choice when it does this. Isn’t the pro-choice enabling a decision for the struggling single mother to abort by envisioning situations that are grave enough to warrant that a single mother ought to abort her child? Sadly, this type of thinking doesn’t sound supportive, hopeful, or helpful. To me it doesn’t sound realistic, to me it sounds pessimistic.
Rush could spend the rest of his days sitting on a beach sipping Long Island Two-if-by-Teas and his audience will probably only get bigger. What is your point?
As I said, the size of his audience doesn’t matter because of the way his deal is structured. He has a contract with ClearChannel through 2016 and they may want the free program regardless of how much revenue–or how little–he’s receiving from his own advertisers.
El Rushbo may not end up working for free, but it’s likely to crimp his style.
The marketplace at work.
You’d have to be naive to think that the size of his audience does not matter to the advertisers who fill in the open advertising slots.
She is definitely a whackjob and has an entitlement mentality who went before congress andis now going on the talk circuit including the View this morning. I don’t see her as brave in any way. Women who have what it takes to live within their own means are brave. Fluke is just an opportunist trying to score.
LOL!
Sandra Fluke was a nobody before El Rushbo made her into a somebody.
That’s what happens when you devote three entire days of national radio saturation to variously calling someone–a private citizen at that–a slut and a prostitute.
I’d be lawyering up. From what I read, there’s a whole herd of DC lawyers who want to stick their paws into Rush’s pants on her behalf.
I’d let them do it. It is, after all, the one language El Rushbo understands.
I’d be lawyering up. From what I read, there’s a whole herd of DC lawyers who want to stick their paws into Rush’s pants on her behalf
lol…make sure and tell her to bring her own birth control
All I know is that your summation is much different:
I don’t need to wait for peer review studies to make a fairly certain logical conclusion.
1) The hormones are used to disrupt the woman’s reproductive cycle.
2) Part of the reproductive cycle it disrupts is the utering lining preparing itself for possible embryo implantation.
No peer review study needed to show that 1 + 1 = 2
Pro-life people who deny it is an abortificient just don’t want to give it up and they hurt the pro-life cause by failing to speak the truth.
Truth – Okay – again, I’m just saying that pretty smart people aren’t 100% convinced. Even on this board, when I threw that quote out to Gerard, his response was:
“There are varying degrees of scientific evidence surrounding this issue. Because the mechanism has not been fully explicated does not mean that the effect does not happen. I’m actually part of an international team of MD’s and Ph.D.’s collaborating on a research project that will fully explicate this mechanism, so stay tuned.”
I hope Rush goes nowhere – we need him – we don’t need him on a beach – we need him where he is – like a bad case of herpes, Rush is silent for long periods of time, only known to the 70 year old’s that love and listen to him…but then, like the gift that keeps on giving, he gets bored and saying something stupid. Calls people sluts and wants videos of people having sex to watch. Great stuff. George Will has given up on the Presidential election already – if Rush keeps going, maybe what Will sees will be obvious to the masses, and we can spare ourselves of the months and months of upcoming smear commercials.
mp -
Who do you think is more valuable to Democrats – Trump or Rush?
Ex-RINO,
Since the Democrats have no merit of their own to stand on…… I guess it depends on who they are demonizing this week.
EGV 9:04PM
As I said, show me where in the Constitution the president is given the power to issue mandates that force religious groups to violate their consciences and this argument will be settled.
I would also suggest a review of the First Amendment.
Concerning Rush, was Ed Schultz calling Laura Ingraham a slut any less despicable? The man apologized, drop it. Rush apologized, drop it. Now go after Bill Maher and start demanding that he apologize.
EGV,
Oh yes Ed’s apology. Problem is he talked of disgracing himself and his family this one time. I think he does every time he opens his big mouth. But like I said, he apologized and unlike you, I don’t spend my time, or should I say waste it, analyzing people’s apologies.
Who do you think is more valuable to Democrats – Trump or Rush?
Rushbo, for sure.
OH my goodness,
Not only has liberal favorite Bill Maher referred to Sarah Palin as “a dumb t—” and a c—, he also called Palin and Michele Bachmann “boobs” and “bimboes” and recently made a “joke” about Santorum’s wife using a vibrator. Then here’s this Maher quote: “And by the way there is a place where breasts and food do go together. Its called Hooter’s” This was after saying of a woman who was harassed for breast feeding at an Applebee’s, “don’t show me your tits!” Hey Bill, maybe you shouldn’t be parking your eyeballs where they don’t belong instead.
Former White House deputy press secretary Bill Burton, the man running Obama’s SuperPac, did not respond when asked if he will be returning Maher’s million dollar donation.
I know that enlightened liberal thinkers on this blog and all over the country, including Nancy Pelosi, the president of NOW, and even Ms.Fluke, will be contacting Mr.Burton to demand he return the donation.
20 advertisers. Gone.
:)
mp,
Any plans to contact Bill Burton? Also, do you plan to contact HBO about cancelling Maher’s show? If you have HBO, do you plan to cancel it?
Mp,
How’s the liberal Air America doing? HAHAHA. Oh yea, out of business, a dismal failure.
Mary – two things:
1) Health care reform covered the ability to mandate certain items as being required in health care plans. The power came from the bill that was passed, not a separate presidential mandate.
2) I don’t think you can read. I said I’d be fine with Maher being fired. I think the same should happen to Rush. You seem both really offended at what these various talking heads say, and quite okay with it. I think you need to decide one way or the other if you are outraged, or if you think it is just ‘boys being boys’.
The power came from the bill that was passed, not a separate presidential mandate. But the mandates are coming from Obama and his appointees (HHS secretary) and his cronies (Planned Parenthood) and soon a panel of unelected bureaucrats we will be paying to endless days doing nothing but coming up with new mandates
30 advertisers. Gone.
:)