Stanek late weekend question 4-1-12: Is turnabout fair play?
Unfortunately, my traditional Saturday morning posting of the weekend question got derailed by hackers, so here is my late weekend entry.
I wrote March 30 about a flier being distributed in the neighborhood of Germantown, Maryland, late-term abortion clinic owner Todd Stave, pictured right, which depicts him as equivalent to a Nazi. The fliers included Stave’s home phone number.
Now Stave is “turning the tables,” according to a supportive Washington Post columnist:
But his tormentors crossed the line last fall when a big group showed up at his daughter’s middle school on the first day of classes and again at back-to-school night. They had signs displaying his name and contact information as well as those gory images of the fetuses.
“What parent wants to have that conversation with an 11-year-old on the first day of school?” he fumed.
Soon after that, the harassing calls started coming to his home. By the dozens, at all hours. Friends asked him how they could help. He began to take down the names and phone numbers of people who made unwanted calls. And he gave the information to his friends and asked them to call these folks back.
“In a very calm, very respectful voice, they said that the Stave family thanks you for your prayers,” he said. “They cannot terminate the lease, and they do not want to. They support women’s rights.”
This started with a dozen or so friends, and then it grew. Soon, more than a thousand volunteers were dialing.
If they could find the information, Stave’s supporters would ask during the callbacks how the children in the family were doing and mention their names and the names of their schools. “And then,” Stave said, “we’d tell them that we bless their home on such and such street,” giving the address.
The family of a protester who called Stave’s home could get up to 5,000 calls in return.
Harsh? Nope.
“We gave them back what they gave us,” he said. Do unto others, and so forth.
The supporters came so fast and in such big numbers, Stave founded a group, Voice of Choice . And now there are about 3,000 volunteers ready to make calm, reasoned calls to the homes of people who bombard doctors, landlords and their families with protests at homes or schools across the country.
Stave clearly enjoys turning the tables after decades of not fighting back.
“What? They don’t want unsolicited calls to their homes?” he asked.
Several questions: Do you think involving the children of either abortion proponents or opponents is fair game? Do you think what Stave’s group is doing is comparable to what pro-life activists do? Do you agree turnabout is fair play? Are the goals of both groups employing these tactics the same?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I’m all for embarrassing someone at their place of misdeeds, but not at home. If their children know anything about their line of work, they might learn of it, but they shouldn’t be personally accosted for what their parent does.
Take this as an opportunity to talk to the proaborts about the evil of abortion. Keep them on the phone as long as possible and ask them questions and invite them to attend church together with you and your family.
Invite the proaborts to come over for supper and a movie. The adults and teens could watch Maafa 21 or Blood Money together or start a book club. Abby’s book Unplanned would be a great book to start with. The little youngsters could play together (make sure you have some little fetus dolls on hand to give the children).
Turn about is indeed fair play. Let your little light shine and love the proaborts. Love is what they need the most.
I think this is simple, evil men like Todd Stave make their money by killing people, there is nothing more wicked than that. Todd Stave’s lust for blood money is his passion and anything or anyone who come against that will pay a price.
Men Like Bill Simpson put it all on the line to speak the truth and does what ever he can to help end abortion. Very few people are doing anything to help outlaw abortion. I personally think that everyone should know what a sick monster Todd Stave is. There is nothing he can say or do to justify what he does. I have never heard one child ever say that abortion was good and what they want to be when they grow up is an abortion doctor.
I believe Bill Simpson to be a hero, one of a few who say it like it is. We are not talking about tactics here we are talking about Todd Stave who help kill 4000 babies every year and one good man named Bill Simpson who is calling him on it.
What is worse to kill babies or to point it out and say its wrong?
I have to say that if pro-lifers phone abortionists than they can phone back. What he did was fair game. As Praxedes mentioned, use it to have a decent conversation with pro-aborts.
But no don’t harass his children. They’ll grow up feeling harassed and accepting the pro-choice view.
I remember being really upset about those lifers harassing middle school kids, I think I even commented on this blog about it. I think it’s horrible to harass kids over what their parents do, because it’s not like the kid has any control of it. I remember my mother dragging me to clinic protests and getting spit on by people going into the clinic. No good, leave kids alone.
But, yeah, it’s a free country. If pro-lifers call him at home, I don’t see how they can cry foul when he does it back. I personally don’t think any of this harassing type of stuff does any good for our side whatsoever. It just turns into this tit-for-tat type of thing.
Obama says that pro-lifers are domestic terrorists. Pro-aborts gain traction with the image that we all carry guns. Playing into these fears does not win the hearts of our fellow Americans.
Pro-aborts already believe that killing is a good solution to any sort of problem. Thus, they quickly assume that we want to kill them. And so it won’t take much for an abortion worker to pull a trigger on an aggressive pro-lifer, claiming “self-defense.”
Recently, a black teen dressed like a hoodlum was shot by a fear-filled citizen in Florida. The press reacted to this tragedy, accusing the shooter of being a racist. Now, every white guy who owns a home and a gun is a potentially racist.
When that paranoid pro-abort shoots a pro-lifer, the victim will be accused of terrorism. It will become open-season on pro-lifers, sidewalk counsellors, and prayer vigilantes.
For our own safety and for conversion of the world, we must hold to the moral and non-aggressive ways of transmitting our message. We must avoid the appearance of terrorizing abortion workers.
Todd Stave said, “What parent wants to have that conversation with an 11-year-old on the first day of school?”
Yes, let’s talk about parenting, Todd. Your question is wrong. Is parenting about what you want to have? Is parenting all about you or all about your 11-year-old? Regardless of what you want, whether 11 years old or 11 days old, parenting is about your child.
Any good parent would tell his child that of course he loves him and would never kill him, no matter how young or old he is. Easy question, easy answer. Are you a good father, Todd?
The first amendment works both ways. If pro-lifers can’t take then they shouldn’t dish it out. Turn about is fair play
Del, when did Obama actually say that?
I kind of wish every pro-lifer and pro-choicer involved in the story could be sent off to an island somewhere. A far away island. With no phones.
JDC — It was one of the faux pas scandals from early in Obama Administration. It became an abuse of Homeland Security, surveillance of harmless American activists who are pro-life, NRA members, military veterans.
Here is a news report from that time:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/16/napolitano-stands-rightwing-extremism/
To be strictly accurate, I do not know if Obama said this, himself, on the record. But we all expect a President to be responsible for the persistent policies of his own Administration.
This is a sad turn of events. When I listen to conversion stories of abortion practitioners and staff or supporters, it isn’t because of harassment or strong arming that their hearts of stone turn to hearts of flesh. It is because people have been praying for them, and being good Christian witnesses… waiting for the Lord to make an opening and then being ready and prepared to accept them and their turn around. We have to make a way with/through humility for these people to be able to walk away from this destruction and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. Jesus didn’t join the zealots of His day to free Israel from the Romans. He did not back down from the Pharisees when they questioned Him -but it doesn’t appear He went looking for them, they came to Him because He was lovingly teaching and ministering to the people out in the open. And then they wanted to kill Him not because the danger He presented was violent, but because His love and forgiveness threatened the way they had been (selfishly) living. Education is definitely important, but making disillusioned, angry people even more angry, just gives them more of an excuse to strike out at accusers in defense of their actions rather than reflecting on their own actions . People who take the lives of others must surely be in torment, we need to provide an alternative; tormenting them and threatening their families doesn’t do that, it gives them an excuse and an out -to defend themselves and their families, taking the focus off of their current lifestyles. The Golden Rule which has fallen out of use, illustrates this. We who understand this, are therefore more accountable to extend forgiveness, and must be careful that we do not escalate the violence we abhor, and make ourselves like the Pharisees, who knew better, but did not accept Jesus’ Way of love and forgiveness. People are watching to see our witness, and in the Acts it was said of the Christians, ‘see how they love one another’, which is what caused sinners to abandon their lifestyles and drew followers to Christ.
I heard about the new pro-life categorization , but didn’t pay much attention. I just googled it and found this article : http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2828762/posts. Jesus said to be as wise as serpents, but as gentle as doves. Matt: 10:16. I think this kind of activity referred to in the article, again, gives people who respect life a negative witness.
I don’t feel it’s right to harass these individuals and their families in their homes at all hours of the day. With that said, if a pro-choicer ever called to harass me (not that I’m too worried, I’m unlisted), I’d disarm them with polite humor. I’d politely laugh & say my two fur-children are just fine, thank you & invite them to dinner & I have a feeling that’d be a short conversation ;-)
I don’t see why a proabort can’t call me. Now getting hundreds of phone calls in return for a few phone callls would be out of proportion. But whatever. Call me instead of deathscorting. I’m ok woth that.
Harrassing children is wrong. What her dad does is not her fault. What us there to be gained from targeting her?
I wonder if this abortion mill owner’s daughter ever wonders about why she made it to birth and her dad made sure so many human beings that would be her age were killed. Yeah, I’d say that girls got enough trouble without prolifers bothering her. Poor kid.
I don’t see why a proabort can’t call me. Now getting hundreds of phone calls in return for a few phone callls would be out of proportion.
What do you think is the goal when people publish someone’s phone number on a flier like this? That every single person who receives that flier will come together to elect one person to make one polite phone call? Or that hundreds of individual people will make individual phone calls? That’s the reason for what this guy is trying to do. He said in the article, about protesting at the clinic:
“Totally appropriate. It’s their right,” Stave told me this week. “They are protected by the First Amendment. And outside the clinic is probably the most appropriate place for them to express their views.”
He’s not trying to shut them up or even keep them from reaching women who are going in for abortions. But he has people tracking his family’s life – making sure he knows they know when he’s away and where, etc – harassing his daughter at school, and distributing his phone number. That doesn’t seem ok to me and I think he’s justified in distributing their phone numbers in return.
I am not really ever a fan of harassing people in their homes for this reason. It just turns into one-upsmanship and us v. them stuff. A phone ringing off the hook all night long does little except make someone angry. But he’s not really trying to do anything except make people angry. What are the pro-lifers in this trying to do?
Here’s what one of Stave’s fans says on FB:
The people’s parents who distributed that vile junk would have definitely benefited from an abortion.
Funny how proaborts think children born to prolifers should have been aborted but are upset when their own children find out what “vile junk” they themselves promote and participate in.
A news article regarding the protest near the school states that, “the clinic’s landlord said he explained the situation to his daughter and his son, a freshman at nearby Thomas S. Wootton High School, and reassured them that they were safe.”
Stave’s admitted he never felt his children were threatened by any prolifer. Sounds like he is just upset that he couldn’t keep the truth from his kids longer than he already has. Too bad that he can’t reassure his kids that children are safe in the womb, too.
Maybe Todd Stave could set up a protest at a prolife Christian school. He could hold signs of aborted children that say, “Your parents oppose me making money from this!”
Mr. Stave has escaped from reality some time back . . . . .
Dear jmjgo
Its good Christians like you that allow injustice to flourish in the world. You have a very one sided view of Christ and the Bible. Christians as well as all others will be held accountable one day when they have to give an account of why they did nothing to help end abortion. Praying for 30 years with out doing anything is not Christian or Christ like. Yes forgive them once they come to repentance, yes love them but remember God Hates sin.
You remind me of a good Christian man who sees a woman being raped and beaten and you say to yourself, I will pray for this rapist, show him love and kindness, caring little for the poor woman who is being raped let alone doing anything to help her in her time of need.
I hope everyone who doesn’t like this is also upset with Spike Lee for publishing an address. I read that he apologized for publishing the WRONG address but I didn’t read that he apologized for publishing ANY address. Correct me if I’m wrong, I could have missed it.
I don’t believe in engaging a person’s underage children or their home. It’s in such poor taste to say nothing of the personal risks in this paranoid day and age.
That being said, I have had a hard time trying to engage even my friends in conversation, much less strangers. It’s such an emotional trigger, especially for post-abortive women. I have friends who’s abortions were DECADES ago and they still can’t verbalize their feelings without becoming shrill. It’s too bad that pro-choice people don’t take care of their own after an abortion. Women who grieve are in a tough spot: they don’t want to go to pro-life religious retreats, but people on their own side leave them high and dry.
What is the mental state of people who go to someone’s middle school like that?
What is the mental state of people who go to someone’s middle school like that?
I’d say better than someone who supports something like this: herestheblood.com
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
It got a father talking with his kids about how he makes his money. Now, he doesn’t even have to take his daughter for “take your daughter to work day.”
Look at the positives, Perry. Jeesh.
For those who are concerned about the Stave children finding out about their father’s work, have you considered that Todd Stave is himself the son of an abortionist? He inherited that hell-hole from his father, abortionist Carl Stave.
Uh, I don’t believe that those of us opposed to protesting his kid’s school care if she knows what he does. I think we are simply opposed to harassing children for their parent’s crimes. At least, that’s my thoughts about it.
Jill Stanek asked, “Do you think involving the children of either abortion proponents or opponents is fair game?”
Does Jill mean the pre-born children or born children? Why doesn’t she explicitly say? We shouldn’t use the pro-abort’s terms of reference.
Taking Jill’s question at its face value, pro-lifers undeniably do involve the children of abortion proponents. It’s their lives pro-lifers are fighting to save. Jill’s most recent Sunday quote, “He lifts the needy from the trash heap,” pictured their bloody remains.
Pro-lifers engage in true preventive health care, saving children from sharp objects and toxic chemicals.
Do you think involving the deceased children of either abortion proponents or opponents is fair game? What about the surviving children?
Why don’t pro-lifers take the turn about up a notch? Bop on over to the Voice for Choice site and sign up as a volunteer to make calls – en masse. In doing so you will be privy to their strategy for phone calling, which may be of some benefit, and perhaps be able, as a large(r) group, to subvert his efforts, peacefully, of course.