by Hans Johnson
New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan’s invitation of President Barack Obama to the Al Smith Dinner on October 18 has stirred quite a controversy, as Michael Hichborn of American Life League explains:
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
So a brief blog post today on one of the more utilitarian reasons that I have heard for abortion/contraception – it saves money….
This sounds to me like something I heard from a colleague last year that the reason that New York’s prison population was down… because of Roe v Wade – since then, thousands of poor people have had abortions and a large number of those aborted babies would’ve committed crime and ended up in jail.
I should have suggested to him that an even better way of reducing prison population would be to kill everyone inside, but that would’ve made things awkward and I had only half-finished my drink at the time (and so no quick escape from the awkwardness).
Surely these sorts of arguments are completely beside the point when it comes to abortion. Either abortion is killing of the most innocent, in which case utilitarian arguments like this are sickening and deeply perverse, or abortion is nothing more than a medical procedure, in which case how much money it may save the state is neither here nor there… unless the state is thinking of using it as an argument for compulsory abortion as a cost saving device, a la China?
So, as with most abortion arguments, they are a smokescreen which obscure the real argument: are we killing a human being or not?
~ Marcus Roberts, Mercator Net, March 28
[Graphic via chillertv.com]
Comments (8)
This is no different than if the Jewish Defense League had invited Hitler to dinner.
As a Catholic, this infuriates me.
This video brings up lots of good and legitimate points, but I don’t think it does a lot of good for our cause to just slam the door in Obama’s face. Paul was killing Christians before becoming the great Apostle to the Gentiles. There is still hope for Obama. I have great, great respect for Cardinal Dolan and I’m sure this was a very deliberate and thoughtful move on his part.
What is it with some Catholic leaders’ infatuation with Obama? Newsflash: HE HATES YOU. Obama hates Catholics! Why on EARTH would you continue to court the man who hates your faith?
Obama doesn’t hate Catholics.
As a Catholic I do believe this is scandalous. I also didn’t agree with Cardinal Dolan praying at the DNC Convention. Both the Al Smith Dinner and the DNC Convention provide photo opps, You Tube clips and articles which will give the impression that the Catholic Bishops are okay with whomever you choose to vote for. Not so, but you wouldn’t know it when the Cardinal provides a venue for Obama to be seen next to him in photo opps. This is completely counter productive to the efforts of thousands of pro-life activists who are working our tails off to elect a pro-life President. I understand the Cardinal is earnest and has prayed about this decision but how is it any different than the outpouring of opposition to Obama addressing Graduation at Notre Dame? It sends a terrible mixed message for on one hand the UCCB to be talking about the harm that Obama’s policies re: religious freedom are imposing but on the other hand, for Cardinal Dolan and other religious to be seen laughing and joking with Obama at a social event. This is not the venue. Let them invite them into their private dining quarters if they want to try to reach out to him but don’t allow this public display that will only give an out to Catholics and those of other faiths who are looking for an excuse to vote for Obama. Religious leaders may not grasp the ramifications of how their actions play out in the political and media world. For that reason they ought to defer to those who understand how detrimental this is.
Mike and Sydney M,
Amen, amen, and amen.
June,
I understand good intentions. So does Obama and people like him prey on good intentions. Dolan should have remained adamant and never extended a hand of appeasement, and that’s all this is. I assure you Obama has only seething contempt for Dolan and sees this as nothing but appeasement, however noble the Cardinal’s intentions may be.
To defeat your opponent you get in his head and think like he does. You see yourself as he sees you. You see the world as he sees it. You understand that you do not project emotions, empathy, or conscience onto people with no capacity for any of this. You understand that you are up against a master manipulator. Obama is playing Dolan for a colossol sap, and Dolan is helping him.
Hi Julie Schmit-Albin,
Brilliantly stated.
This is an article I found giving the other view point of the invitation. As a Catholic, I’m not happy about this invitation either.
” This is an article”
What is, I don’t see a link anywhere in your post.
Sorry :S
http://ncronline.org/news/people/cardinal-timothy-dolan-defends-obama-invitation-al-smith-dinner
Thanks, Tammy.
I wonder if Cardinal Dolan is planning on a continuation of his benediction from the DNC? I trust that this prince of the Church knows what he is doing. It may be the opportunity to discuss the life issues with Obama in front of the cameras and put him in an awkward spot.
I opposed the DNC benediction until he did it, and prayed against everything that the DNC spent three previous week celebrating.
It’s a dinner, at which both presidential candidates are traditionally invited. It is not an endorsement of either Obama or Romney. I hope Dolan “heaps hot coals upon” Obama’s head; in the Scripture we are told to show kindness in order to shame those who hurt us.
Jesus also got a lot of criticism for dining with tax collectors and sinners. In the first century, tax collectors for the Romans frequently collected more than was due and kept the extra for themselves, which was why they were so hated by people. Remember that the apostle Matthew was not merely a tax collector, but chosen by Jesus to be one of his 12. Remember too that while the apostles tried to choose a replacement for Judas themselves, the Lord chose Paul, despite Paul’s oppression of the followers of the Way.
If you love only people who are nice to you, then what makes you any different from the atheists or the pagans? It is very difficult to be civilized and polite, and even harder to be kind, to the people who despise and disrespect you. Dolan will get no reward if the only people he will spend time with are squeaky-clean, upright, righteous and sin-free.
I ask that you wait until after the dinner to see and judge for yourself then. I thought his benediction was awesome. And though it didn’t move the Big Zero, remember: others were listening, and we may not be able to count how many hearts were touched that night.
Hi ninek,
I assure you Dolan will in no way”shame” Obama. Obama has no capacity for it. He has only seething contempt for Dolan. Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Christ also cast the moneylenders and other unsavory characters out of the temple?
Did Christ yuk it up with King Herod?
You don’t have to hate those who are unkind to you, but you don’t have to let yourself be manipulated by someone who has already betrayed you either.
I respect everyone’s religious perspective but I’m afraid mine is far more earthbound.
Obama is playing Dolan for a sap, and Dolan has no obligation to let him do so. I only view this as a betrayal of Catholics.
Hi Tammy,
I just read the link. Good grief, this situation is worse than I thought.
Hi Seano Down Under,
I’m sorry to tell you but the Prince of the Church is completely clueless, however good his intentions.
Thanks for the link Tammy. I didn’t realize Romney was speaking at the dinner too. I wish I had a table there.
Hal, yes Obama does hate Christians of all denominations but Catholics in particular. Or is he forcing them to violate their religious beliefs with the HHS because Catholic doctrine makes him feel all warm and fuzzy and he respects them oh so much?
Obama mocks Christians for “clinging to their God”. Well, yes, guilty as charged. I do cling to my God. Only a fool thinks he can go it alone.
Moses found the Pharoah a whole lot more hard of heart than Dolan will find the Big O. You ain’t gonna part the waters sitting among the choir.
Cardinal Dolan is showing both Obama and Romney radical hospitality.
Must say, this video was alot more succinct and to the point than the Michael Voris ones about this particular subject.
Fabulous.
Test
I think that by giving the prayer at the RNC, thus practically forcing Obama to invite him to the DNC, where he gave a powerful witness to Christian principles, Cardinal Dolan is way ahead of Obama at this point.
Hal, Obama hates religious freedom for those who don’t share his personal religion or worldview.
TylerTyler, as someone who really does resent religious people, I can be confident that President Obama isn’t. He respects you, probably more than he respects me.
Hi Lori Pieper,
No, Dolan is not way ahead of Obama. He’s right where Obama wants him. Dolan just thinks he is and sadly so do many of his supporters.
Hi ninek,
The Pharoah only “softened” his heart because he had no other choice.
You may not part the waters sitting among the choir but you will be manipulated by an SPD/NPD if you’re not careful. Just ask Bart Stupak. Oh, and let’s keep in mind that Obama has already betrayed Nolan.
Believe me ninek, Obama is not going to back down. He has only seething contempt for Nolan. SPD/NPDs do not respect your efforts to be nice to them, they use them toward their own purposes.
That’s what I mean ninek, you have to know how your opponent perceives you, you cannot project onto him.
Secret Service investigating Texas man — for lynching his chair!
It wasn’t kenthebirther.
I would have put up an ‘empty suit’ except we are not supposed we not supposed to air the dirty laundry for all our neighbors to see.
de-odorize the white house: remove b o
I am looking foreward to b o being fitted for his new suit, which I hope will not be empty.
The one with the stripes and the numbers.
I want to see b o kept in the manner to which he has become accustomed: public housing, complete with 3 hots and a cot and health care provided by the federal government.
“Some have told me the invitation is a scandal,” Dolan wrote. “That charge weighs on me, as it would on any person of faith, but especially a pastor, who longs to give good example, never bad. So, I apologize if I have given such scandal. I suppose it’s a case of prudential judgment: would I give more scandal by inviting the two candidates, or by not inviting them?”
“In the end, I’m encouraged by the example of Jesus, who was blistered by his critics for dining with those some considered sinners; and by the recognition that, if I only sat down with people who agreed with me, and I with them, or with those who were saints, I’d be taking all my meals alone,” he [Dolan] wrote.
Dolan is missing the point and going to great length to do so.
That Dolan senses the need to offer a public defense for his ‘prudential judgement’ is in a an indictment of himself.
Tho some folks might object to Dolan sitting down to a private dinner with either or both the candidates, I have to believe the vast majority of ‘christians’ would give Dolan the benefit of the doubt and at least not criticize his ‘prudential judgment’….publicly.
…”would I give more scandal by inviting the two candidates, or by not inviting them?”
Seriously, Really?
Dolan is demon-strating his disingenuiness by even posing this question, especially in the manner he does it. He acknowleges the ‘scandal’, then attempts to excuse it by implying circumstances conspired against him
The only perverted and convoluted justification I can imagine for inviting both candidates is it will result in more butts in the chairs at 25k a seat.
And if you can’t imagine it, it must not exist.
Mary, I forget, are you Christian? In our own human terms, WE worry about how other people will perceive us. WE worry, am I coming off as strong or weak? But, our ways are not God’s ways. If WE are always reacting then we ARE being manipulated.
I agree that Biden and Pelosi are only too eager to sell out their church and their fellow Catholics for their own personal gain. They certainly seem willing to be manipulated. But sometimes, you just have to do the right thing and not worry if the narcissist will see it as being to his own advantage. Come on, haven’t you seen a woman rebuff a man only to hear him exclaim, “ya, she wants me!” I had my doubts until I read Cardinal Dolan’s own words. I think he’s on the right track. I think it’s very revealing to watch how everyone reacts. Even I was outraged for a couple days until I came to realize, Dolan is crazy like a fox.
And if the Big Zero wants to puff himself up over it, well, he’s already the emperor with no clothes. Come November, he’s going to feel a mighty cold draft on his back side!!
Mary, exactly when was Obama diagnosed with the NPD you keep talking about?
Thanks ninek. Exactly how I feel.
Nicely stated, ninek.
Hi ninek,
I’m agnostic, but lived most of my life as either Lutheran or Catholic.
I come from a life of lessons hard learned and raised in a household of Cluster B personalities, i.e. sociopathic, borderline, narcissitic and histrionic. Family gatherings were for the most part Cluster B conventions. You would spend time at my childhood home and know there has to be a genetic basis to these disorders, which I am convinced there are. Oh, then there was my NPD stepbrother who threw me over a chair and into a wall. He only “apologized” to make certain I didn’t tell his dad. Another trait of these people ninek, they completely lack in remorse, unless of course it suits their purposes to make you think they are sorry.
As I child I literally forced a knife out of my NPD sister’s hand before she sliced up my SPD/BPD father any more. My SPD grandmother would threaten to kill my father then rip off my mother. I tell you these people are a trip. I’ve attracted these people like flies my entire life until I finally got wise. Another thing about these folks, they know a sap when they see one. That’s why I say the good cardinal is being played for a sap and will not back down.
Yes ninek my perspective is earthbound and hard learned. My advice is you listen to what I tell you, it can save you a lot of grief. I would strongly recommend you read “The Sociopath Next Door” by Dr.Martha Stout. Straight forward info minus the psychobabble. Dr. Stout’s advice? Avoid these people like the plague if possible, and never forget what you are dealing with if you can’t.
So ninek, you’ve got Obama who is void of conscience, immensely charming and manipulative, betrays people when it suits him (Stupak, Wright, Dolan), lies, is superficial, and deflects all blame. You overlook this at your own risk, and so does Dolan. I’ll tell you right now Obama won’t back down, Dolan won’t reach him. He views Dolan with seething contempt and Dolan’s attempt to reach out as pure appeasement. These folks have no respect for appeasers.
Oh, and Dolan isn’t “crazy like a fox”. SPDs are masters at making you think you’ve got the upper hand, you’ve won them over, when in fact you’re playing right into theirs.
So ninek, heed what I say. Dolan is making the colossol mistake of projecting onto Obama what he has no capacity for. Obama is playing Dolan for a sap by making him think otherwise. That is why I say to get in your opponent’s head and think like he does.
If you think our troubles are over if Obama loses in November, you’re dreaming. NPDs don’t lose graciously, in fact it can make them extremely dangerous. Even Dick Morris backed me up on this one. If I may toot my own horn, I called it here on this blog before Dick Morris put out the video. No great gift of prophecy on my part, just know the personality. Check out Dick Morris’ video about Obama’s scorched earth plans for this country should he lose.
Hi Lori,
I called out his SPD here on this blog when I witnessed the blind and mindless adulation of Obama, when he ran for president. As time went along I noticed more NPD traits so now I call him a combination. Actually these two disorders are closely related so it may just be a matter of perspective.
Charm and charisma are traits of the sociopath, they are very seductive people, not necessarily sexual though they may be that as well. Oddly, they are often very physically attractive as well, my father was gorgeous. That blind adulation was a red flag from the depths of hell to me, and so far nothing has proved me wrong. Sooo, if you can, go for it. The NPD traits that I see? Extreme petulance, i.e giving the finger to McCain and Hillary, his seething hatred of anyone who dares question him, an inablity to accept that he is wrong.
Again, others may disagree on some of the finer points, no surprise there and I respect their disagreement with me.
Mary, you’ve gone so far into Obama’s head that you’ve lost your perspective. Come on out, take a deep breath, and look around. There are pastoral reasons for Dolan’s actions that have nothing to do with attempting to “win over” Obama. My guess is that Obama is not the object of Dolan’s actions at all.
Hi lrng,
My perspective is all too clear. You can believe what you want concerning Dolan but I remain convinced he is selling Catholics out and being played for a sap. Apparently, from what I read on this blog, any number of Catholics see nothing “pastoral” about his actions either.
I respect that you may differ in that perspective.
“I’m agnostic, but lived most of my life as either Lutheran or Catholic.
…You would spend time at my childhood home and know there has to be a genetic basis to these disorders, which I am convinced there are.”
Mary,
I respect your intellect and your perspective.
If the concept of god and spirituality are removed from the equation and you are left with only what can be observed to explain personality disorders that seem to run in families, then I can see how one might conclude the answer lies in ‘genetics’.
There was an FBI agent who was involved in the Walker spy scandal. The agent had ample opportunity to interview and observe John Anthony Walker and he concluded that Walker is the way he is because he is ‘evil’. The evilness was almost palpable.
Now I realize the agents observations are anecdotal, but that does not mean they are wrong.
My experience has taught me there is a realm beyond space and time that encompasses space and time and influences space and time that is greater than space and time and exists before space and time.
There are things called generational curses and generational iniquties. These things from the eternal realm influence the temporal realm.
Some of the observable effects of these invisable curses and iniquities are the ‘personality disorders’ which you have described which someday may be diagnosed genetically.
The ‘choices’ we make have consequences, both good and bad, not only for ourselves, but for our posterity.
The results of Adam’s and Eve’s first single ‘sin’ still ripples down thru the generations.
But the ‘curses’ associated with it has been broken and the blessings which are GOD’s original intention for us are irrevocable in Jesus the Christ.
The effect of the sin and the resultant curses and iniquities has left us all broken in many ways, but GOD has committed HIMSELF to our redemption and restoration as ‘sons of GOD’.
The wisdom you possess and demonstrate on a daily basis is not your own. It is HIS gift to you and to those who will receive it.
You are blessed among women and men.
Dolan’s ‘prudential judgement’ would not be any any less ‘folly’ if he were an atheist, budhist, jew, muslim, wiccan.
In fact, because Dolan confesses the name of Christ, and has been assigned a seat of prominence among the faithful, his folly is all the more manifold and manifest.
Bill Clinton was not invited to be a keynote speaker at the Al Smith dinner for good cause.
the obamateur’s sin is far more loathesome than slick willy’s.
Hi Ken 6:43PM
You are very kind, thank you.
I certainly respect anyone’s religious perspective and I’m afraid that given my life circumstances, I am more influenced by the earthbound. What I have seen and observed.
Do PDs have a genetic basis? You will never convince me they don’t. The human mind is so far beyond the ability to fathom. How does one explain savants? Genius? Talent? Intellect? Personality? Sexual preference? We have theories and little else. How long was mental illness thought to result from “bad mothering”? Interesting you never heard about “bad fathering”. Epilepsy thougth to result from demonic possession? Now mental illness is thought to have a genetic component as well.
My friend “Dina” who teaches spec.ed told me she has a 2nd grade schizophrenic student. Children cannot be schizophrenic she had always been taught. She’s also had two brothers as students who were sociopaths. She described them as beautiful children, and totally void of conscience as well as master manipulators.
Yes Ken I do believe evil can be born. Ted Bundy was positioning steak knives around his sleeping aunt’s head when he was 3y/o. I have a young relative who is displaying some very troubling signs, and he’s in second grade. This concerns me given our family history. His grandfather told me he sensed from infancy there was something “different” about him. Sociopathic children will often display early signs, like fire starting, animal torture, and aggressive behavior.
I would take what that police officer said very seriously. I know of any number of police officers who agree. I remember one officer saying he knew the moment he sat down with a suspect, the guy was a killer. He described his eyes as “reptilian” and he sensed pure evil.
We could debate forever the how’s and why’s. We can see this from a religious or non-religious perspective. I respect either. But we have to realize these people are what they are, and to disregard this is to our own detriment. I tell anyone who is being stalked and threatened to get a gun, learn how to use it and shoot to kill. I entertain no fantasy that these people can be reasoned with. They respect one thing, you are as dirty as they are.
One of the most incredible things I had to witness was Dr. James Dobson interviewing Ted Bundy. Bundy was giving Dobson a sob story as to how porn had turned him into a serial killer. I couldn’t believe it. Let me break this down for you Dobson. Bundy knows exactly what you want to hear, Bundy wants to escape the chair which thankfully he got, Bundy is a master manipulator, Bundy needs you on his side. Dobson thinks he’s proving a point, Bundy is one step ahead of him the entire time and is playing him for a sap. Put your Ph.d on the bottom of a birdcage Dobson, where it will do some good.
Dolan, however noble his intent, must know his opponent and how he thinks and act accordingly. To not do so it to put himself in a position to be manipulated and maybe destroyed. Just ask Bart Stupak about trusting an SPD/NPD and where it got him.
Sorry Mary, but when I see you personally addressing every. single. person that expresses the slightest bit of positive opinion of Dolan to tell them that you know better and Dolan is a “sap”, your assurances of “respect” fall flat.
Hi Lrning,
I’m telling it like I see it and I don’t concern myself with winning popularity contests. I respect people’s religious convictions and I have said I am sure Dolan has only the best intentions. I also maintain that Dolan is being played for a sap and selling out Catholics and I will not back down on that.
Mary, what do you see as the profit for which Archbishop Timothy Dolan is selling out Catholics?
Hi ts,
No profit. I see Dolan as mistakenly thinking he can appease or play up to Obama, be the nice guy, and he will come out ahead. Big mistake. I have no doubt Dolan thinks he is acting in the best interests of Catholics. He’s not. You don’t take this approach with a personality like Obama.
Mary, then you should find a better way then “sell out” to say it. What do you see as Cardinal Dolan’s end game when you say he thinks he is going to ‘come out ahead’ in this for Catholics?
Hi ts,
A “sellout” does not have to be for profit. To me a “sellout” is a betrayal. The only “profit”
I see for Dolan is he thinks he will get into Obama’s good graces and Obama will do a 180. He won’t.
The end game is Cardinal Dolan is the upstanding Christian leader extending a hand of peace and friendship to his opponent who has betrayed him. Hopefully his opponent will see the light. Cardinal Dolan has only the best intentions and is sincere in his efforts.
Now let’s visit Realville: Obama has no remorse and isn’t about to develop any. He has only seething contempt for the Cardinal and his efforts at appeasement. Dolan has challenged Obama with that lawsuit and NPDs do not graciously respond to being challenged or criticized. For the most part they will stop at nothing to make you pay. He is not going to back down. He has the upper hand here, its Dolan who wants something from him, not visa versa.
I think posters Mike and Sydney M have definitely seen the light concerning Dolan’s sellout. The Cardinal would do well to listen to his flock.
“I see for Dolan is he thinks he will get into Obama’s good graces and Obama will do a 180.”
You know very little about Cardinal Dolan but you project ludicrous thing like that about him just to make a point about Obama’s narcisstic nature..
ts,
Believe me I wish I was wrong. I don’t see where stating the Cardinal’s good intentions is ludicrous. Dolan hopes his act of Christian kindness will influence Obama. It won’t. Expect Dolan to be nothing but a gracious host.
If you’re uncomfortable with that ts, I can see why.
“he thinks he will get into Obama’s good graces and Obama will do a 180.”
What has Cardinal Dolan written or said that leads you to this conclusion?
What I found ludicrous was that you think Cardinal Dolan thinks he can somehow make Obama pull a 180 at that dinner. Cardinal Dolan has had interactions with Obama in the past and knows Obama’s propensity to lie. Neither of us can know the cardinal’s motives but I think they are probably much simpler (and grounded) than thinking he can get Obama to do a 180 at the dinner party. Seriously.
ts,
Not a 180 at the dinner, but hopefully somewhere down the line after the Cardinal has extended a hand in Christian kindness, to which Obama will surely respond. That is what I mean when I talk about Obama’s good graces, which may have been a poor choice of words.
He knows Obama’s “propensity to lie”. I’m sure he does given his first hand experience. Apparently he’s learned nothing from it. SPDs are master liars, and it is one of the first things Dr.Stout suggests you watch for when determining someone is an SPD.
Whatever his motive is, Dolan needs to know the mind of his opponent and what he is really up against. He also needs to listen to his flock.
Hi Lrning,
I think I addressed your post in my response to ts.
Now let’s visit Realville: Obama has no remorse and isn’t about to develop any. He has only seething contempt for the Cardinal and his efforts at appeasement.
Yes, let’s visit Realville:
I agree that Obama has no remorse. However, as a Christian and a human who also watches human behavior, I disagree that we can know for a fact that someone isn’t about to develop any remorse.
Do you believe that everyone who is a terrible sinner (or labeled by you as a SPD/NPD) is beyond hope and help? If this is the case, I might as well quit my job because I work with children who are labeled very early on. I have seen changes in labeled people with my own eyes. Are there those that will never change, yes. Does this mean we give up on them? Can you pick out what character I think you represent in this story?: http://dreamemporium.com/starfish.html
I myself was a terrible sinner for years and disbelieved and practiced little of what I was taught as a Catholic child. There were terrible consequences to myself and others because of my rebelliousness towards Jesus. Thanks goodness that there were people who believed in me, guided me towards a better path and prayed for me.
St. Paul himself stated that he persecuted the church of God beyond measure. St. Paul did terrible things prior to being converted including participating in the stoning of St. Stephen.
If you’re uncomfortable with this, I can see why.
Hi Praxedes,
Take my word for it Praxedes, he won’t develop any. One thing you will never hear from an NPD is the word “sorry”, or any expression of remorse. Their response to your showing them they are wrong is seething rage, especially when you prove your point. You may hear it from an SPD but only because they know that’s what you want to hear.
They have no capacity for it. You don’t develop a capacity for remorse any more than you suddenly grow a conscience.
No I don’t view people as beyond help. I view the NPD/SPD as what they are and you best not put yourself in a position to be their victim. You always remember what these people are, whether they are children or adults. You disregard this at your own risk. Remember they are master manipulators and know exactly what you want to hear.
Thank you for your work with children. I am happy to hear you have had such success with “labeled” chiildren and wish you continued success. Again “labeling” is a different issue. Children can be wrongly labeled. Anyone can be. “Dina” the spec.ed teacher has called out more than a few “experts” on their wrong diagnosis, and been proven correct much to the benefit of her students. She has also had sociopathic students and will tell of having her guard up at all time. Even these youngsters were master liars and manipulators, and totally void of conscience.
I was certainly no saint myself for years either. Few of us were. There are people who need to learn lessons the hard way, people who totally trash their lives, people who with the proper guidance and motivation will make complete 180s. Its another matter all together when the person has no remorse or desire to change their lives, or is just very good at making you think they have. SPDs only account for about4% of the American population, so not all troubled people are sociopathic, and not all sociopaths engage in criminal activity.
A word of caution Praxedes: Once you determine someone is an SPD, NEVER let your guard down, do not trust them, do NOT confide in them, and make every effort to avoid them. I would also recommend “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout. Great info minus the psychobabble.
He knows Obama’s “propensity to lie”. I’m sure he does given his first hand experience. Apparently he’s learned nothing from it.
How is that apparent? Because you imagine Cardinal Dolan being a sap who thinks offering a invitation out of Christian kindness will be enough to convert Obama to do a 180 somewhere down the road?
I have read “The Sociopath Next Door”, Mary, but I have also read the Bible. I am very guarded around the students I work with but just as guarded around many of the adults I work with. I have seen similar traits in some of the adults that label the students as vice-versa.
You mention several times that Dolan needs to listen to his flock. I prefer Dolan to listen to God before he listens to his flock. As is apparent with the abortion issue, His flock has been known to be very wrong. I trust that Dolan’s relationship with Christ is a tight one.
Do you believe that converted abortionists are true in their conversions? Do you believe that women who state they don’t regret killing their unborn children are sociopaths?
Christ didn’t say He came to save all sinners except for those labeled sociopaths.
ts 12:39PM
Its apparent because he can be betrayed by Obama, who has not backed down an iota or apologized, and still extend a hand of appeasement to him. Do you know this isn’t what Dolan expects? Why else would he do this except for the hope Obama will change? Just to be a nice guy?
Hi Praxedes,
Excellent book isn’t it? It made me wonder about that sadistic(!) 6th grade teacher of mine and it sure explained a few of my family members! You are wise to be guarded. I’ve made the mistake too many times not being so.
You present your perspective as religious, which I respect. I’m afraid mine is more worldy
and based on a long life experience. I remain convinced these people do not change, they are what they are, and we disregard that at our own peril. They prey on people who want to help them. Some very Christian friends of mine were communicating with a prisoner and sending him bibles. They barely knew him. A former police officer went ballistic when I told him and said tell them to stop all contact NOW! He’s got friends in prison and outside he may be passing info to. Thankfully once they stopped contact nothing more happened, though my friend felt they were very much in danger. Same with another woman at church. Oh she has the best intentions, communicating with a dangerous convict who had been locked up for incorrigable behavior. “I trust in the Lord”. Yeah lady, but when the Lord gave you a brain, it wasn’t to seperate your ears. “Anyway, he doesn’t know where I live”. My friend’s response, “he knows exactly where she lives and more about her than she does herself”.
Are you so certain Dolan is listening to God? Or does he personally think that extending a hand of appeasement, being the bigger man, is somehow going to move Obama? Maybe his flock is listening to God and trying to warn him. Maybe people see what I see and perceive this as a sellout by their leader. I don’t see why Dolan’s relationship with Christ would be any tighter than his flock’s.
Do I believe abortionists are true to their conversions? In some cases, yes. The fact they were abortionists doesn’t make them sociopaths. Some may get for reasons of their own. Do I believe all criminals are true to their conversions? In some cases yes, in others I believe it is only manipulation. SPDs just love it when do-gooders come to their “rescue”. I remember the case of Karla Faye Tucker. Do I think she was a true conversion? The jury will always be out on that one, for me at least. Something about axe murderers makes me skeptical. I’ve seen the same ploy used by other killers trying to stay alive, and far more elaborate than hers.
No Christ didn’t make exceptions for SPDs. But let’s face it, there are people Christ would have never, and did not, reach. My only advice for these people is always remember they prey on good intentions, They love mind games and are master manipulators, they have no conscience thus no capacity for guilt, NEVER trust one, don’t believe most of what they say and be highly skeptical of the rest, avoid them at all costs if possible, the only “remorse” you will get is being sorry they got caught, the less they know about you the better, and NEVER forget what these people are.
Again, thank you for the work you do with these children and I wish you continued success. BTW I have a 2nd grade nephew in counselling for lying, manipulating, aggressive behavior, and anger issues. I have my concerns, but NO labels. I hope counselling is effective and my very deep concern totally unfounded.
Maybe to lead by example. We are called to love all
Hi Praxedes, 2:47PM
Again, I respect your religious conviction, but please like the people I mentioned in my post, don’t let it put you in danger. I’m sorry, but evil lives and breathes in this world and decent religious people are who the evil will prey on.
I forgot to address your question about the aborting woman who doesn’t repent. Do I assume she is sociopathic? No. She may sincerely believe her reasons were just and is convinced her unborn baby was just “cells”.
Who are the folks Jesus would have never reached out to?
Hi Praxedes,
I didn’t say he wouldn’t have reached out to, I said there werepeople he would never have and did not reach. Not every one was, or is now, a follower.
Right. Dolan is called tp be lile Jesus, not you.
Hi Praxades,
Are his flock who are protesting the invitation any less called to be like Jesus?
Do you know this isn’t what Dolan expects? Why else would he do this except for the hope Obama will change? Just to be a nice guy?
I do not know what Dolan expects; like I said above, neither of us knows. But I would say that having Obama surrounded by people who spend the evening shining light on ‘life’ issues and on religious freedom issues could be beneficial. It should be a forum for contrasting Obama’s speech to everyone else’s speeches; including Mitt Romney’s.
Hi ts
I’ll give you this, it can’t hurt. But help? I promise you Obama will remain unchanged and unrepentent, and Dolan will continue to have an irate flock.
Mary, as always I enjoy reading your posts regarding NPD, having experienced BPD/NPD people first hand. There’s no doubt President Obama’s symptoms line up perfectly under Cluster B.
One of my son’s friends from church has a NPD/anti-social father who had an affair several years ago, and when confronted with it by his mother, threw her across a sofa. She divorced him seven years ago, but he keeps taking her back to court over ridiculous details, paying court costs to gain the satisfaction of punishing her. She said Obama reminds her so much of her ex husband, sweet talking, charming, but with a vindictive side to hurt anyone perceived as having more “power”. She said it didn’t surprise her when Obama said in Oct 2010:
“If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,’ if they don’t see that kindos of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it’s gonna be harder and that’s why I think it’s so important that people focus on voting on November 2.”
Praxedes and Mary, I see a good question you bring up – how are Christians called to witness to sociopaths and those with other cluster B traits? Jesus told his disciples, “And whereever they do not receive you, when you leave that town, shake off the dust from your feet as a testimony against them” (Luke 9:5, ESV). To me it appears that Jesus recognized that there were some who would never repent, and trying again and again to communicate with them would be like banging your head against a wall. I know. I’ve been there trying to communicate with a family member with BPD. I have finally but sadly had to accept that this Scripture verse is right there with the advice of non-religous mental health professionals who advocate dissociation to protect my own sanity.
Mary says: I think I addressed your post in my response to ts.
No, you didn’t. But since you followed up with “Why else would he do this except for the hope Obama will change?”, I can see that you’re just making up intentions for Dolan according to your own perspective. Which as an non-ordained agnostic is going to be significantly different from Cardinal Dolan’s actual perspective. That you don’t back up your assertions with anything Cardinal Dolan has written or said is very telling as well.
Dolan will continue to have an irate flock.
You don’t do yourself any favors by writing in such black and white terms, Mary. Some of Dolan’s flock is irate. And a large portion of Dolan’s flock voted for Obama. What makes you think he wasn’t “listening to his flock” when he extended the invitation?
You are trying to set yourself up as an expert in a situation in which you have no knowledge. It’s frankly ridiculous.
Praxedes says: I prefer Dolan to listen to God before he listens to his flock.
Amen to that!
Hi Eric,
How nice to see you here. I always enjoy your posts and I appreciate your kind words.
Yes, that sounds like very typical NPD behavior. Unfortunately he’ll torment that poor woman to either his or her grave. Hopefully it will be his. Cross these people and there is hell to pay, and for as long as they want to keep it up. Stalking and terrorizing is another ploy, and considerably more dangerous. I advice anyone in this situation to get a gun, learn how to use it, and shoot to kill. These people cannot be reasoned with and will not rest until they maim or kill you.
There was actually a situation where the parents of an alleged murder victim went to their daughter’s grave, only to find her widower exhuming her body! He was moving her to his family plot. Her parents had had the temerity to try to have him charged with their daughter’s murder in a diving “accident”, and now they would pay. What better way to punish them? For the most part he just dumped her in a hole, would not allow a headstone, and destroyed any flowers her parents left. Now that’s vindictive! But exactly what I would expect from an NPD. He was found “not guilty” though from what I saw of this “accident” reenactment, it was no accident.
He also had himself put on her life insurance before the “accident”.
Her parents planned to fight him to reclaim their daughter’s body, but that will take a huge financial and emotional toll. The husband I’m sure will drag this out till it kills those poor souls.
This is the reason Eric that I fear what will happen if Obama loses. He will be in a position of power to do a lot of damage until January and he will definitely have a score to settle.
Lrning,
Would you please restate the question? Thank you.
Hi Eric, 4:05PM
I will defer the religious aspect of this to Praxades. I have made my own earthly based opinion known.
Hi Lrning, 4:06PM
According to the video on this thread, the majority of Catholics oppose Dolan’s actions. 54% voted for Obama. The following link may give us some insight into Dolan’s intentions and what I have based my argument on. You can draw your own conclusions as I have drawn mine:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-08-15/news/33220684_1_timothy-cardinal-dolan-president-obama-obama-with-open-arms
Lrning and Praxades 4:08PM
How do you know God so commanded Dolan?
Mary says: “The following link may give us some insight into Dolan’s intentions and what I have based my argument on.”
Why not go right to the source?
http://blog.archny.org/index.php/al-smith-dinner/
And you haven’t made an argument. You’ve simply stated that since Cardinal Dolan must have invited Obama with the intention of getting him to convert and do a 180, he is mistaken and has been played for a sap.
Mary says: “… the majority of Catholics oppose Dolan’s actions”
And as you pointed out, the majority of Catholics voted for Obama. Why is it relevant that “the majority of Catholics oppose” this invitation? Assuming that it’s true.
Mary says: “How do you know God so commanded Dolan?”
I never said I know what God wills for Dolan. I simply dispute your assertion that Dolan “should listen to his flock” and not invite Obama. He should listen to God, not be led astray by the complaints of his flock. I do believe that Cardinal Dolan is a man of great faith and prayer, so I trust that he has taken this decision to God and is proceeding accordingly. I’m satisfied with his explanation, particularly since I see how he boldly handled the convention prayers, and am willing to wait and see how it goes.
Hey Mary, I haven’t had a chance to be on here much as I recently retired from the military and have started new employment this summer and have had some personal issues related to, of all things, someone I know with BPD. I too have Catholic and Lutheran background — I’ve been confirmed in both the RC and the LCMS (guess I have dual citizenship).
I think you’re right, this woman’s ex-husband has stalked her in the past and she had to place a restraining order on him. Their 15-year old daughter refuses to go on visitation because he is emotionally abusive; and their 12-year old son just shuts down around him. The ex-husband does everything he can to punish all three of them, despite his restraining order. She is not a gun-owner, but I recognize the threat this man poses to her and to her children and pray for her safety.
To you and Praxedes, as far as the points raised whether or not Cardinal Dolan can gain anything by associating with President Obama, I interpret Scripture that he does in fact need to keep up a dialogue with the President as a public official, as Christ gave the great commission. However, a field of research and experience would show that dialogue will not turn President Obama’s heart. Cluster B’s only truly turn their heart if they ever reach rock bottom devoid of enablers, much like an alcoholic. President Obama has way too many enablers to ever suggest he would change his heart. In other words, Cardinal Dolan may engage the President to show the public where he, representing the Church, stands; but in my opinion he should not offer any appeasement with the hope of changing the President’s heart. It simply won’t happen.
IMHO, it is time to shake off the dust of the White House who won’t receive the Cardinal’s message as a testimony against its resident.
Lrning,
My source did contain direct quotes from Dolan.
Dolan stressed the need for “engagement and dialogue” and said he would welcome Obama with open arms.
“Its better to invite than ignore, more effective to talk than to yell at a distance, more productive to open a door than to shut one”
The Cardinal said he and Obama would break bread and set aside political differences for a night.
Dolan acknowledges he has received “stacks of mail” protesting the invitation to Obama from Catholics furious with the new federal health care regulations.
Now if this doesn’t sound to you like someone extending a hand of appeasement, hoping he can perhaps reach and influence someone, i.e. do a 180, then I don’t know what does.
However well intentioned the cardinal is, it makes me gag and yes, I think the Cardinal, however noble his intentions, is being played for a sap. If Obama wants “engagement and dialogue” he can invite the Cardinal for a private conference. Come to think of it, did Cardinal Dolan and Obama have a dialogue before Obama betrayed him? Yes my memory does serve me correctly:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02/09/cardinal-designate-dolan-obama-reneging-on birth-control-provision/
Praxades: I prefer Dolan to listen to God before he listens to his flock
Lrning: Amen to that!
Like you I agree Dolan is a man of deep religious conviction and good intentions. He is however a man, with all the strengths and failings that go with being human. Do we know for certain he is listening to God and why would his flock be any less atuned to the will of God than he is?
Another thing to consider Lrning is appearances. The Cardinal is sending what kind of message? Fair or unfair, how are his actions perceived?
54% of Catholics, a majority, voted for Obama. That was 4 years ago. Hopefully they’ve gotten wise. The video gives the percentages of the Catholics opposing Dolan’s action. View the video and draw your own conclusions.
Oh darn, part of the link didn’t go through.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02/09/cardinal-designate-dolan-obama-reneging-on-birth-control-provision/
Are his flock who are protesting the invitation any less called to be like Jesus?
No, they are not. The question is WWJD? Did he lead by example or stay as far away from sinners, labeled or not, as possible? Christ reaches out to everyone, as the Bible tells us He does. If we are to imitate Christ, we are to reach out to everyone including the Obamas (and their followers) of the world. Whether they ever use their freewill to take heed is out of our control and beside the point. Christians are called to be like Jesus. Have you ever seen the movie Dead Man Walking?
As an employee, I don’t get to pick and choose what children I will work with and it probably wouldn’t go over well if I told my boss that I won’t attend a staff meeting that includes John Doe because I believe he falls on the sociopath spectrum.
As a Christian, I am called to represent Christ and Christ came to save all of us. A reminder to all Christians to pray for Dolan and Obama.
How do you know God so commanded Dolan?
He has a great record and has earned my trust.
Known fruits and all that.
Hi Eric,
Seriously, you were confirmed in both faiths? I was baptized Lutheran as an infant, baptized and confirmed Catholic in 6th grade, and turned Lutheran again when I got married. Now I’m agnostic.
Thank you for your service to our country.
Like the others, I respect your religious perspective on this. Its been my experience these people may mellow, but not completely change. My NPD sister seems to have gotten nastier with age, and she was never very nice to begin with! My maternal grandmother was a pistol until she died, fighting with her sisters, ripping off my mother, etc. Like I said, at family gatherings, with a collection of Cluster Bs, you never knew when and where the next explosion would erupt!
My opinion is Obama won’t change, and as I said I am fearful of what he could do for two months of “lame duck” should he lose. Even Dick Morris has expressed the same concern, you should check out his “Obama’s scorched earth” video at his website. I also have concerns that Dolan’s efforts may only send Obama the message that Dolan is attmepting to appease him, which can only make more problems for the Church. Its my opinion Obama has only seething contempt for Dolan, however good Dolan’s intentions are.
I am convinced these people are born and hard wired this way. Its simply their personality and perpective like you have yours and I have mine.
I have serious concerns for that woman and her safety, as well as that of her children.
Restraining orders are for the most part useless, though they do convince police you are serious about taking action. As a former cop told be about stalkers, these people respect only one thing, someone as dirty as they are.
How sad about the children. PDs can take such a terrible emotional toll. My father liked to torment me about my brother walking down the street and suddenly dropping dead.
These people can play some terrible headgames with their children.
I have seen PDs do some pretty bizarre and vicious things out of spite but I must admit exhuming a body is certainly a first!
Hi Praxades,
Thank you for addressing my question and thank you again for your service to children in need.
I worked with a sociopath myself, and yes I know they cannot be avoided. You can only protect yourself from becoming a victim.
“Now if this doesn’t sound to you like someone extending a hand of appeasement, hoping he can perhaps reach and influence someone”
No, to me it doesn’t.
Hi Lrning,
It will just have remain a matter of perspective.
I’m glad that at least one of our church leaders is a true believer. I’d hate to see our church run by people with secular values who judge all others in the present by the sins of people in their own past.
Hi ninek,
I do not judge people by sins of the people in my past, I learn from my experiences with people in the past, and the present. That way you do not set yourself up to be a victim or to have your good intentions exploited by people to serve their own purposes.
Once there were two monks who were walking together. They had taken both a vow of chastity and silence. They came to a part of the river where they could cross but a woman was standing there. The current was too strong for her so she asked for help. The first monk lifted her up and carried her across the river and put her on the other side. The two monks continued on their way for the rest of the day. Finally the second monk could keep silent no longer. “How could you break your vow and touch a woman like that?!” he said. The first monk replied, “Brother, I set that woman down as soon as we reached the other side of the river. YOU are still carrying her.”
Hi ninek,
Please take the advice of someone who has learned the hard way time and again. Always carry life’s lessons with you. Set them down and you have to learn them again.
There is a prolife dinner coming up in my area and one of the organizers asked that I invite high school religious education students.
There are members of my parish that support Obama and legal abortion. Their children often follow their parents’ lead and I have had outspoken student proaborts in my class.
When I talk to the class about this upcoming dinner, do I say that only those who are opposed to legalized abortion are welcome to attend? Do I tell them that if their parents plan to vote for Obama, that they are not welcome?
Maybe I should ask Michael Hichborn for advice.
I’d hate to see our church run by people with secular values who judge all others in the present by the sins of people in their own past.
Agree. Thank the Lord the priest in my parish invited me in before I believed everything he teaches.
Hi Praxades,
I think it would be a good idea for the students to attend a pro life dinner and hear the other side. After all, you just don’t want to preach to the choir. They certainly have the choice not to attend.
About your parish priest, did he ever betray you or his parish, attempt to force them to compromise their religious convictions, exercise dictatorial powers he has no right to?
Hi Mary,
Yes, I seriously have been confirmed in both churches — a very Bavarian heritage Roman Catholic church and a very German heritage Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod).
Some years ago I had a series of discussions with a chaplain about people with Cluster B traits. He said you just need to love them to change their heart, and he thought I was stubborn for reaching a point of dissociation with a family member who kept violating boundaries. He was counseling a woman with BPD at the time and said he was excited to see her growth. About a year later he confessed to me that he had to stop counseling her because some of her friends were calling him to say they were worried about her mental health. She thought he was writing his sermons to torment her, that he was lying to her about God’s will for her, and that he was dying his hair and growing a goatee to follow her around to spy on her. He tried to refer her to a mental health professional, but she thought he was just trying to punish her, so she proceeded to bad mouth him behind his back to the congregation to punish him.
He admitted there was a point where a person simply had to accept that the other person’s mental health issues simply prevented a change of heart. He prayed for her but couldn’t engage with her anymore.
About your parish priest, did he ever betray you or his parish, attempt to force them to compromise their religious convictions, exercise dictatorial powers he has no right to?
No, not that I am aware of. But I sure did betray him and the parish for years. I’m thankful my priest and other Christians have forgiven me and did not slap a label on me forever.
Hi Eric,
My heritage is German as well. In fact I was in Gemany earlier this year, in Bavaria. Very observant Catholic region.
How sad about that woman in the church. Sometimes you just have to accept certain facts, that people are what they are and no amount of good intentions changes anything. If only it was so simple for love to change hearts! Sadly for the minister his reputation ended up being trashed. Even for a mental health professional BPDs are extremely difficult to treat and from what I have read, treatment can be long and complicated and the person must be determined to see it through. That’s assuming they acknowledge they have a problem to begin with! Usually its everyone else’s fault.
Depending on the severity, if a PD finds a place in life that suits them, they can be outstanding at what they do. I’m convinced a sociopath would make a great undercover cop, thriving on the danger and deceit the job calls for. My BPD daughter excels at research, figures, numbers, etc., but socially gets by. She is lost in her work but so long as she is happy, go for it. My NPD sister is my mother’s power of attorney and is responsible for her finances. My mother’s stepson gave her some hassle about her finances, becoming verbally abusive and she called my sister. My sister assured her she had taken home the paperwork and if he wants to get to anything, he’ll have to get past her first! Believe me Eric, he would rather face down the devil himself. Just the person you would want protecting your finances! The traits that made my father an outstanding special forces soldier made him a terrible husband and father.
It sounds like you made a difficult decision seperating yourself from a BPD relative. From what you have told me, you made the only choice possible. These are people who demand everything and give nothing, making relationships with them difficult to impossible. My mother would speak of her failed marriage to my father and I have to tell her mom, you never had a prayer of making it work, not with a personality like that.
BTW Eric, I have a young relative that I am nervously watching. Aggressive, anti-social, angry, lying, and manipulative. He’s only in second grade. If there is ever at time I want to be wrong this is it. Otherwise I think, oh no not again.
Hi Praxades,
I have no clue what your betrayal was but I am happy you are returned to your faith.
Now let’s see, Obama violated the Consititution when he gave his dictatorial HHS edict. He lied to and betrayed Cardinal Dolan. He then pretended to ”change” the edict, another attempt at deceit, which Cardinal Dolan said amounted to “a hill of beans.” He has not backed down an iota and it has been necessary for Dolan et.al., to file a lawsuit.
Do you see a pattern here Praxades? Do you not see a man who is lying, manipulative, dictatorial with no regard for the laws of our country? Do you not see a man void of conscience? Do you not see a man who will lie, manipulate, and make his own laws as he sees fit? This is a man who threw his own minister under the bus when it suited him politically, comparing him to the befuddle old uncle in the attic. You think he is going to have more regard for Dolan?
Did you read in Eric’s post of the minister who thought he could reach out to a PD and what happened as a result?
Perhaps my “secularness” is a put off. But my lifelong experience with these people leaves me with a lot of scars, including being thrown into a wall, mentally and verbally abused, punched, hit and kicked, and knowledge to share. It also enables me to see what Obama is and that it is useless, even appalling, for Dolan to want to “break bread” with this kind of a man, a man who has betrayed and deceived him and Dolan’s flock as well. I can promise you Obama only sees Dolan as a sap. He has no intention for any dialogue. He could have called the Cardinal to the WH at any time for a dialogue, he could also rescind the HHS order. I promise you he will do neither.
There are people who’s hearts can be reached, there are also people who are pathological.
Obama is the latter. The farther Dolan distances himself from him the better.
Easy, Mary. I certainly see Obama for who he is and I really think Cardinal Doyle does as well.
However, there are other people who are watching whose hearts will and can be reached. Maybe even enough to return to their own faith.
Some of the poor behaviors you describe in your family are learned behaviors and therefore can be unlearned. You sure don’t have much hope for people changing, do you?
I feel sorry for the second grader in your family. I suppose everyone should distance themselves from him, too. He is as good as labeled and it doesn’t appear that anyone is trying to teach him a better way.
Hi Praxades,
I don’t think most people will even be watching the Al Smith dinner and from what I have read, the majority of Catholics polled have already made up their minds that they oppose the Cardinal’s actions. However, if someone’s heart is moved, great. It won’t be Obama’s.
I believe many PD behaviors, including violence, are innate. Its part of them. The NPD is violent because YOU made him angry, otherwise he/she wouldn’t do these things. The BPD develops an obsessive need to be someone else or to stalk someone, then kills them. The sociopath who thrives on danger and loves to kill. We just don’t always understand how the mind works. Yes some behaviors can be changed, others will never be. My father’s violence and emotional abuse of his children would never be changed, he saw nothing wrong with it.
I appreciate your concern for my family member and would equally appreciate you not making assumptions. No he has not been labeled, he is in counselling. His grandfather will not leave him alone with the smaller children because he has been caught being dangerously rough with them, then trying to lie and manipulate his way out of it. He couldn’t have a more gentle, loving soul for a mother, whom I have observed with him since infancy. If anyone has done everything “right” it is her. She has confided her serious concern to me about her son. Ever since toddlerhood this child has shunned efforts at affection, but I just chalked that off to shyness. I remember hiding behind my mother when she introduced me to someone, but that certainly didn’t indicate I had a potential for a PD. His father is a decent man, who loves his children and supports his family. His little brother is a complete 180, a child who is affectionate and enjoys interaction with other children. Believe me, family life and parenting has nothing to do with this. He is surrounded by loving family. No one avoids him, he avoids us. I hope counselling will benefit him and I have never wanted to be wrong more than I do where he is concerned. I have concerns, but I keep them to myself. I only look at him and think to myself, not again…..please.
I know Praxades that as a”secular” its assumed I don’t understand or respect the religious convictions some people may have of God intervening. On this blog, I have been nothing other than respectful. My disdain is for Obama, not the Cardinal. My references to the Cardinal being played for a sap is against Obama, and it angers me. I have said repeatedly I respect the Cardinal’s good intentions, but that they will be used against him. This is a man who has betrayed and lied to the Cardinal and Catholics time and again.
Believe me, family life and parenting has nothing to do with this.
From my experience, I disagree. I have worked with very few disturbed children who did not have some sort of dysfunction going on at home. There may be a child that is wired a certain way but his experiences are what will contribute to who he becomes. Enabling was talked about above and is was stated these folks cannot continue without enablers. Who are this child’s enablers? I realize there are other factors that can contribute outside the home but home is the first teacher.
I appreciate your concern for my family member and would equally appreciate you not making assumptions.
You’ve made assumptions throughout this whole thread, Mary.
Hi Praxades,
In the first place, what home doesn’t have some dysfunction? How do normal children come from dysfunctional homes? I’ve seen children that survived childhood, living horrors we can’t fathom, and becoming perfectly normal and functional people. How do deeply troubled children come from good homes? I also think a dysfunctional or good home is a matter of perspective. Family members can all have different memories and perspectives as to what their home life was like. Sorry Praxades but I have seen so many exceptions that I am convinced there is something inate.
Have you heard of little Jannie Schofield, the child that was born schizophrenic? How does this and other mental illness happen? Maybe we just don’t comprehend the human mind as well as we think we do. I can remember when the “experts” would have told these parents its all their fault!
I hope sometime you will have the opportunity to read “And I don’t Want To Live This Life”, the true account of Nancy Spungen, famous for her relationship with rocker Sid Vicious. She was murdered in 1978 and her mother writes the personal account of her daughter’s emotional disorder, I think it was severe BPD, apparent from birth. A real page turner. Definitely gives credence to the argument that some children may suffer serious emotional disturbance despite a parent’s best efforts. I have recommended this book to parents with troubled children time and again, parents I know were trying to do the best for their child.
I don’t see that I have any more made assumptions throughout this thread than you did Praxades.
I made one assumption about your 2nd grade relative. If there are more, please point them out to me. My one assumption was based on what you said about your young relative, about my own experiences working with children and their parents, my own life about how abuse is covered up from others as well as previous talk here about enabling people.
I never said there was not anything innate going on and actually said that some of these people are so wired. From what I can gather, where you and my opinions differ the most is that you believe these innate characteristics are next to impossible to direct and/or change and I don’t.
I believe some of us are hard-wired to become addicts of one kind or another. Statistically, the home we are brought up in is a great indicator of our own mindsets and choices when it comes to becoming a full-blown addict. Being taught about free-will (oh no! not religion!) is another factor that I believe can turn someone around or keep them from screwing up in the first place. Prayer is also a biggie, for self and others around you. There are studies about how prayer/religion can actually change your brain.
What about stats that show more troubled kids come from single-parent homes? Statistically, their home lives do affect them. There are exceptions of course but like I said, most violent kids come from homes that have some sort of dysfunction going on, one of those quite often being denial of any problem.
I can see what you are saying Prax, and I think it is laudable that you work so hard to help kids other people might have just written off. I just wanted to say that. Not weighing in on whether mental illnesses are generally hard wired or not, that subject makes me nervous.
To a certain extent, it is definitively, Jack. I know, that kinda bothers me, too, considering my mom’s brother was formerly diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and that statistically raises the odds for all of my siblings and myself by 30%. It sucks, but I think knowing that kind of stuff helps us to be vigilant and mindful of our own thoughts and behaviors, which in turn helps to keep us healthy.
<3
Hi Praxades,
You said I made assumptions throughout the thread and I don’t see that I made any more than you or anyone else. Expressed opinions, yes.
I think in the end we can only conclude that the mind is a mystery about which we can only theorize, speculate, give opinions, agree and disagree. Why are people geniuses, savants, talented, intelligent, witty, autistic etc? Again no solid answers.
I think certain inate traits can be controlled, yes. But people have to see them and their need to be controlled. You and I for instance could see our failings, maybe someone has expressed annoyance, and make a serious effort to correct them. Some people don’t have this capacity, IMO. I gave an example of an NPD who will abuse another person, but see it as the person’s fault, not theirs. If that person hadn’t made me mad, I wouldn’t have hit him/her.
I have heard the same opinion expressed on prayer, as well as studies that back it up. Very interesting. For the record I am agnostic, I question, I’m not certain where I stand, but I certainly have no issue with religion, I will remain open minded concerning God, and if religion is beneficial and helps make one a better person, you get no argument from me. My opinions of the human race will continue to remain very worldly however, life experience has just taught me too much. So far, I haven’t been proven wrong. Of course that doesn’t mean people don’t disagree with me
Indeed there are troubled homes, and I have definitely seen like parent/like child on more than one occasion. But I have seen as many exceptions, even within the family itself. Some children coping very well, others not. My mother, brother, sister, and I all have different perspectives on our upbringing and family life, which was definitely very tumultuous by anyone’s standards!
Again I hope you will have the opportunity to read that book. You come to realize that, unlike today, parents had few resources, it was the “parents’ fault” doctors downplayed and trivialized the Spungens’ concern for their daughter, etc. BTW, their two other children were perfectly normal.
Mary, this is really off-topic but it seems…a bit appropriate, at least. Do you have any experience dealing with stalking/harassment by an obviously mentally unwell person? Someone who was never a domestic or intimate partner to me, or really a huge part of my life at all, has nonetheless taken it upon herself to write a 220-page manifesto about how horrible I am/my family is, and apparently sent it to a bunch of people, me included. Work contacts of mine. etc. Really crazy stuff, grossly untrue and vulgar accusations, etc. I just thought that you might have some advice as far as documenting an official record, communicating to her that she is never to contact me again, etc. I don’t really know where to begin. All the harassment information/aid I’ve come across seems to assume it’s an intimate partner relationship and it’s not so I don’t really know how to proceed. I am really mostly too humiliated to ask for help in real life because it is just…I can’t even think about who has read this entirely fictitious account. It is awful, awful stuff and it makes me so ashamed but I think I need to at least officially, provably communicate to her that any further contact will be considered harassment.
Hi Jack Borsch, Praxades, and X,
Thankfully we have dedicated people like Praxades and my friend ”Dina” who teaches spec.ed. If you read the book I recommended to Prax, “And I Don’t Want To Live This Life” you will realize how parents in the late 50s and and into the 60s had very limited resources for help, assuming their concerns were even taken seriously to begin with!
You may be too young to remember, but I have memories of state hospitals, rudimentary spec.ed classes which might have 5 or 6 students, and autistic and mentally challenged children put away and forgotten, including a relative of mine through marriage. Also, mental illness was the “mother’s fault”, never the father’s.
Now chemical imbalance is theorized as a cause, a physical problem with the brain, but still much unknown. Genetics is also being found to play a role. But you only had to spend time with my family to figure that out!
You’re right X, by being aware and informed we better protect ourselves. And Jack, yes, it is scary. Especially schizophrenia which is so devastating and still mysterious.
Now on that happy note I will go call my friend “Maggie”, a lifelong friend, and that is long….., who has been in the psychiatric system for at least 40+ years, diagnosed with Depression, though I’m convinced she’s a borderline personality disorder. ECTs, drugs, psychiatrists, therapists, and now yet another trip to the hospital. She doesn’t know any other life and years of drugs, etc. have made her what I call a psych cripple. Definitely someone who has been “labeled” to the point no one ever looked at any other possiblity, like BPD. BTW she also has a Master’s Degree.
Thanks for your kind words, Jack. These topics are interesting to me and I appreciate Mary’s and everyone else’s insights here.
Alexandra, Sorry to hear about the creepy/scary stuff you are dealing with. ):
On a non-secular note, I once talked with a nun about these types of issues and it was her strong belief that some of these folks are actually possessed and need spiritual as well, if not more than, mental health care.
To lighten things up a bit, I thought you all might enjoy a little skit that follows some of what we are discussing. Some of you may be too young to remember Carol Burnett, but I’ve always found her funny:
On youtube type in: The Carol Burnett Show Mama’s Family Parent Teacher Conference
Hi Alexandra,
Thankfully I got a lot of advice on this type of situation from a late friend who was a former policeman. He came to my assistance during a potentially dangerous situation and how I wish he was here now to address your post!
I don’t know how you know this woman. Is she a neighbor or co worker? Do you cross paths? Is she actually stalking you, i.e. following you around, hanging around your neighborhood, etc. Whatever, you are wise to take this very seriously and treat it as the potentially dangerous situation that it is.
I would make an immediate visit to the police department with all documentation on this situation, including her “manifesto”, file a report, and ask the police what procedures you can follow. Unfortunately the police may be very limited in what they can do as apparently she has not tried to make physical contact or actually threatened you. This could be just the beginning though. They may agree to call or visit her just to “talk”, especially if she persists. See about a restraining order or at what point you can get one. Any and every incident, no matter how trivial it may seem, notify the police. If it happens a dozen times a day, you call the police a dozen times a day. Yes document as well as record and save phone calls.
Is there a woman’s shelter in your community? They may be another valuable resource as they certainly have clients who are stalked and harassed. Also, do you have an attorney? I would wonder about a slander issue here.
Does your home or apt. have an alarm system? A good security system would be a good investment, with two way monitors where you can make voice contact and signal immediately for help.
Also, are you comfortable with weaponry? If it was me I’d get a gun and learn how to use it. You don’t have to go hunting for her, but you have every right to protect yourself.
Make NO contact with this woman. Leave that to the police, or your lawyer. You have absolutely no reason to be humiliated or ashamed, this woman is sick and you are her victim. Its possible the police have dealt with her before.
Its best to assume this will escalate and put these measures in place immediately. I hope this has offered you some help. What a terrible situation and I hope to hear how you are doing with this. If you want, the moderator would have my permission to give you my e-mail.
Perhaps some other posters here have some advice or personal experience that could help Alexandra?
Hi Praxades,
Aren’t you a dear, ME too young to remember Carol Burnett!!
I’m so old I remember Groucho Marx and his show “You Bet Your Life” I can hear a collective WHOOO?
Very interesting about the nun’s comment. Honestly, my brother has recently told me that as a child and teenager, he seriously thought our father was possessed. Well, I rule out nothing.
BTW Praxades, I second Jack’s comment. We may disagree, but that does not take away my admiration and respect for what you do. This is an area fraught with disagreement as there just are no definite answers.
Especially now with my nephew. Thankfully his mother has him in therapy and we can hope for the best. If there has ever been a time I want be proven totally wrong, this is it.
As for Carol Burnett, I loved her show. Lyle Waggoner was such a heartthrob and Tim Conway and Harvey Korman were a hoot. I never liked her mop lady skit though, that was so depressing.
Thanks for your advice, Mary.
“I don’t know how you know this woman. Is she a neighbor or co worker? Do you cross paths? Is she actually stalking you, i.e. following you around, hanging around your neighborhood, etc. Whatever, you are wise to take this very seriously and treat it as the potentially dangerous situation that it is.”
I will try to e-mail you about this in a bit. She is an acquaintance of my father’s (I have believed for some time that my father is suffering from frontotemporal dementia) and I believe she wants me to get out of his life, which is something I’ve refused to do despite his increasingly cruel behavior.
Hi Alexandra,
After reading this post, I would strongly advise you see a lawyer. Your father may not be legally competent because of his dementia and you may want to see about getting a power of attorney or guardianship so as to manage his legal and medical affairs, and maybe get this woman out of his life. He sounds like easy prey for someone like her. I can’t imagine what she thinks give her the right to dictate you and your father’s relationship, but she is a sick mind.
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