Pro-life blog buzz 11-16-12
by Susie Allen, host of the blog, Pro-Life in TN and Kelli
We welcome your suggestions for additions to our Top Blogs (see tab on right side of home page)! Email Susie@jillstanek.com.
- Secular Pro-Life spots an employment ad seeking an abortionist for an apparently “lucrative” position with American Women’s Services, which “operates sixteen abortion offices on the East Coast.” And doctors don’t even have to have GYN training – what luck!
- Women’s Rights Without Frontiers explains that despite reports to the contrary, China has not abandoned coerced abortions or their One-Child Policy. With the country’s demographic winter on he horizon, a think tank is recommending easing into a two-child policy, then abandoning the policy by 2020. This, however, is only a recommendation and would not end the problems of coercion and gendercide.
- Voice for Hope takes on critics after receiving a barrage of “Biblical” pro-choice justifications for abortion after posting a pro-life, Christian graphic (pictured left) on Facebook.
- John Smeaton discusses Savita Halappanavar’s death, which is being blamed (by abortion advocates) on Ireland’s strict abortion law. Smeaton disagrees with pro-life Catholic commentators who claim that it would have been acceptable to induce labor:
Savita was in the 17th week of pregnancy. There is no scientific evidence that unborn children are capable of surviving outside the womb at such a young age. If the doctor in Savita’s case had agreed to induce her child, he would have been performing an abortion. The principle of double-effect would not have justified inducing Savita….Smeaton also states that there are alternatives to induction which were not exercised in this case.
- Michael New responds to a new “study” which claims that states with incremental pro-life laws have higher levels of abortion clinic harassment:
The authors fail to consider that… even though individual clinics in conservative states are more likely to report various forms of harassment — the fact there are fewer clinics in conservative states might mean that the actual amount of harassment might be relatively similar in conservative and liberal states.Interestingly, despite all its shortcomings, the study finds that there was no statistically significant difference in clinic-violence rates between the most “pro-life” states and the most “pro-choice” states. There was some evidence that clinics in “pro-life” states had a higher rate of minor vandalism. However, even in the most conservative states, only a small percentage of clinics reported any kind of vandalism. Of course, these facts will go unreported in the mainstream media.
- Reflections of a Paralytic posts a cartoon pointing out a double standard that is alive and well (pictured right).
- Moral Outcry examines Planned Parenthood President Cecile Richards’ post-election statements against states like Texas, who are attempting to defund the organization:
The president of Planned Parenthood wants you to know, “There’s no better place in America to make sure that women have an opportunity than at Planned Parenthood.”Yeah, you heard that right. According to Cecile Richards in San Antonio Current, abortion gives women opportunity. I suppose her reasoning is that if a woman’s birth control fails, or she forgets to use it — or simply doesn’t want to — then she has an out called abortion, aka killing your unborn baby so that you can continue with your opportunity. Discussing the election and then pointing her fingers at Texas, Richards asserts that a world without Planned Parenthood just wouldn’t be a good place.
- At The New Feminism, Marjorie Murphy Campbell excoriates both political parties as “delusional,” claiming neither understands women and the realities they face today. She also makes the questionable claim that, for “most women,” “abortion and contraception are not moral issues. They are issues of survival.” The prevalence of single parent households (some by choice) is a sad reality, but the fact that one political party made free contraceptives a campaign issue (and won) is even more disturbing.
- Stand for Life shares a pro-adoption ad during National Adoption Month, which is running on the Oxygen Network:
Was adoption best for Lawrence Bittaker, David “Son of Sam” Berkowitz, Ken Bianchi, Joel Rifkin, and Joe Kallinger? I doubt that their victims or the families of their victims would want to see adoption encouraged.
Was adoption best for Marlene Olive?
Women who get pregnant should be those who want to have and raise babies.
Not those who will abort.
Not those who will hand over their babies to others to raise.
2 likes
Before placing a baby for adoption, visit this website: http://sd2cx1.webring.org/l/rd?ring=teenpreg;id=7;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ekeepyourbaby%2Ecom%2F
0 likes
Son of Sam was adopted, so down with adoption? Wow. I can make the same argument in the opposite direction. Many amazing people were adopted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIBZ-kJ6XAc
Of course, most adopted people live average lives, just like anybody else.
20 likes
Denise, pretty sure you’ve already been warned about your “adoptees are serial killers” comments. Enough, please.
12 likes
Denise, rather a sick mind to say better off dead than raised by a family other than your biological parents. So the planned and so called wanted children that end up doing bad things in society means what????
11 likes
Actually the women who make an adoption plan for their child know the true meaning of sacrificial love. They are my heroes.
15 likes
That was an excellent article by John Smeaton.
1 likes
Susie says:
November 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Denise, rather a sick mind to say better off dead than raised by a family other than your biological parents
(Denise) I’ve never said this.
0 likes
I am all for adoption if it’s the only option, and I really respect a mother (and the dad if he is in the picture) who is brave and strong and selfless enough to do something like that. I am really uncomfortable with how adoption seems to be pushed a lot on unmarried and young moms though. The youth shelter I volunteer at is pro-life which is awesome, but their go-to response to a pregnant teen seems to be “have you thought about adoption?” rather than “How can we help make it so you and your baby can stay together?” It seems to me that adoption should be a last resort, when a woman absolutely does not want to parent, rather than an act made out of desperation, fear, or lack of support.
Adoption isn’t easy. I have a couple friends who have a lot of mental issues from adopting out their babies, like they grieve as if their baby died and they tell me it will never get better because all they can think about is their child out there. They didn’t have the resources to keep their babies, one of them was homeless and on heroin when she got pregnant. She wasn’t helped to keep her baby but some rich couple was more than happy to take him off her hands. I have also met a couple adoptees who feel like there is something “missing” their whole lives and even when they didn’t know they were adopted felt like something was wrong and out of place.
I am not saying AT ALL that I would rather a baby be aborted than adopted. But I think that our first goal as pro-lifers should always (unless the mother is an abusive or dangerous person) to help that mom keep her baby with her. I think this should be something that’s talked about more often than it is in the pro-life movement. It seems like when pro-aborts say something like “well what if she’s young, what if she’s on drugs, etc etc etc”, pro-lifers tend to be “Well adoptions an option” too often. The focus should be on intact family, the important people are the mom and baby, childless couples aren’t owed a kid.
10 likes
Oh, and I forgot to mention. I also think that closed adoptions should be strongly discouraged and unless there is literal danger involved it should be possible to legally revoke the “closed” part of the adoption if the natural mother or father or the child desires so. My friend who adopted out her son when she was homeless tortures herself all the time with thoughts of what could be happening to her child, since it’s a closed adoption and she can’t see him or find him for the rest of her life. He’s fourteen now, she has no idea if he is even alive. She thought that a closed adoption would be best for her but it turned out it tortures her every day. And open adoptions are not legally enforceable in most states (the adoptive parents can keep the child from the natural mother whenever they choose to, and she has no legal recourse if they don’t follow what they had planned on). Open adoptions should be Plan A for most adoptions, and should be legally enforceable. If God forbid I couldn’t raise a child of mine I would want legal rights to know that the child is safe, being taken care of, and where he or she lived.
5 likes
Today there is semi open adoption, open adoption and closed adoption. The reason for choosing to make an adoption plan is not just unable to financially care for the child. With all the social service programs that is usually not the case. They choose adoption because they want their children to have a mother and father. I know birth mothers who made this choice for their child so the child could grow up in a married mother father home. One choose semi open adoption and the other open adoption. They do not feel like their child died…they both know exactly what is happening and how the child is doing. Your viewpoint of adoption is like in the 70’s. I used to be a social worker back then and all you had was closed adoption. It is much different today. Children who joined a family by adoption need not feel like something is missing. They should understand and know how they joined the family. Adoption is not shameful. It is important that we do not use words like gave up for adoption or give away or put up for adoption. Rather she made an adoption plan. Adoption is an event not a lifestyle. The child is not an adopted child. He is a son who was adopted.
When teens get pregnant, most of them choose to parent and the second choice is abortion. Less than 1 % choose adoption. There are 2 MM couples waiting to adopt. Children raised by teen parents are the most likely to drop out of school, live in poverty and be referred to social services. Children need a mother and a father.
4 likes
“Your viewpoint of adoption is like in the 70?s. I used to be a social worker back then and all you had was closed adoption. It is much different today.”
I am talking about people who “made an adoption plan” in 1998, 2003, and I think 2005. The adoptees I know are 22 and 29 I think. I do understand it is better now. It’s still not remotely ideal and there are still people who are traumatized by the adoption, this possibility of harm should be reduced at all cost. The fact is that semi and open adoptions are not legally enforceable in many states, that is one big thing that needs to change immediately. I do know on lady who thought she was having an open adoption, and the adoptive couple didn’t keep up on their end of the bargain, she is supposed to be getting updates on her child’s life and a picture every three months. She gets one about every year and a half. There is no legal recourse for her, her state doesn’t recognize any of her parental rights.
“Children who joined a family by adoption need not feel like something is missing. They should understand and know how they joined the family. Adoption is not shameful. It is important that we do not use words like gave up for adoption or give away or put up for adoption. Rather she made an adoption plan. Adoption is an event not a lifestyle. The child is not an adopted child. He is a son who was adopted.”
They don’t need to feel like something is missing but the fact is that some do. One of the adoptees I have talked to, before she knew she was adopted she felt out of place, even though she had loving parents and siblings who treated her wonderfully. She said she had nightmares where her family was telling her she wasn’t really a real family member. This was all before she knew she was adopted. Infants do bond with their natural mothers before birth, it doesn’t mean that a healthy adoption is impossible but it is certainly important to consider. I don’t think adoption is shameful or a terrible thing or anything like that, I just don’t think people realize how heart-wrenching it can be.
” When teens get pregnant, most of them choose to parent and the second choice is abortion. Less than 1 % choose adoption. There are 2 MM couples waiting to adopt. Children raised by teen parents are the most likely to drop out of school, live in poverty and be referred to social services. Children need a mother and a father.”
I don’t have a ton of sympathy for couples waiting to adopt, honestly. I know I can’t relate because I have two biological children, and never had to deal with infertility, but children aren’t something everyone is guaranteed. No one is owed a child, but children are owed parents. There are also many older children in foster care with terminated parental rights, or even kids who don’t have parental rights terminated but still need somewhere to live with someone to love them. http://www.adoptuskids.org has listings of thousands of these children. These couples could at any time have a child in their home, at the very least they could become foster parents and temporarily care for many children that need someone. I think it’s selfish to wait for a newborn. If I were financially able I would foster teenage boys, since they are nearly impossible to place and a lot of them end up being but in juvenile facilities when they are removed from abusive situations, which is disgusting. The point is, no one is owed a child, and people need to stop thinking about their own wants and think about what children need.
Kids raised by teens and single parents do have statistically worse outcomes than children raised by two parent, intact, stable homes, but it doesn’t mean we should encourage people to not raise their own children. I am a single parent, and that doesn’t mean my kids should be given to some worthier couple just because their mom and I aren’t together. We can encourage and foster better outcomes for children of teen mothers without encouraging them to not raise their own children. And also, married couple doesn’t mean automatically better situation. My parents were married for years and were horrendously abusive, it all depends. A loving young single mom is better than that. Children deserve their parents and biology can be very important, mothers and babies bond before birth. In countries where there is an after-birth waiting period the rates of adoption are much, much lower than the US. Given time to think, even less people really want to have their child raised by someone else.
Here’s a thought, why not “adopt” a teen mom and her baby, if these couples so desperately want children? Bring a pregnant teen into your home, care for her AND the baby, help her finish her schooling and make sure her and baby are healthy and safe?
I’m not trying to sound like I am anti-adoption, because I am not. It is the best choice in some circumstances. I just have a lot of reservations about the industry and I think it should be child and natural mother centered.
4 likes
Amusing article John Smeaton. He doesn’t deny that failure to induce labor got Savita Halappanavar killed, only that doing so would have been “unethical”. I guess he’s perfectly happy with the “ethical” outcome then: her death
3 likes
Oh please… It’s not the responsibility of infertile couples to adopt hard to place children out of foster care, most of whom come with challenges the average family isn’t equipped to deal with. Any fertile person who thinks it is selfish to want an infant and hasn’t been sterilized with the intention of adopting out of foster care is a hypocrite.
Oh, and the reason why adopted children are seemingly more likely to become serial killers is because those statistics include children adopted out of foster care. Statistics are especially scary for children raised by teen mothers though.
3 likes
“It’s not the responsibility of infertile couples to adopt hard to place children out of foster care, most of whom come with challenges the average family isn’t equipped to deal with. Any fertile person who thinks it is selfish to want an infant and hasn’t been sterilized with the intention of adopting out of foster care is a hypocrite.”
Neither is it the responsibility of teenage and single mothers to relinquish their own children to infertile couples. And all children have “challenges”, we don’t get to pick and choose what children deserve parents because of them. And I actually do plan on getting sterilized and fostering as soon as I am financially able. Those kids deserve to be taken care of. I actually wouldn’t have had biological children if my ex-wife hadn’t had other ideas (not that I remotely regret my kids, I am incredibly happy to have them), I would have adopted when I am older and more stable if it had been my choice.
“Statistics are especially scary for children raised by teen mothers though. ”
Still doesn’t mean that teens should be encouraged and/or pressured to not raise their own baby just because teen parenting is difficult. I find pro-lifers who take this type of attitude absolutely maddening. We support the baby’s right to be born, of course. Then we’ll shame her mom by throwing scare statistics at her so she relinquishes? It’s preposterous, we have an entire country and plenty of caring people, if a teen wants a chance to raise her own baby but doesn’t feel supported or that she has the resources she should be helped.
4 likes
“Neither is it the responsibility of teenage and single mothers to relinquish their own children to infertile couples. ”
No. It’s their responsibility to provide the best start possible for their children. Unless they are Jamie Lynn Spears most teens don’t even have the resources to even try at this, and it’s not anyone else’s responsibility to pick up the slack. Parenting is a job for adults, and babies deserve better than someone who can’t even take care of themselves. There may be some outliers, but none of my friends or I were even remotely independent at 16.
5 likes
And seriously, look at the inner cities to look at how great it works to enable teenagers to try and play mommy. The normalization and approval of teen parenting has led to nothing but increased dependence, poverty, and crime… and then the cycle continues.
6 likes
Well, you have your opinions and I have mine.
Teen mothers raising their children are not “playing mommy”, they are the mommy. Teens were parents for thousands of years, it’s just recently that this isn’t the norm. Where’s Jespren? She would have something interesting to add I am sure.
Do you have kids? Which of yours could you give to someone else if people didn’t think your home was as good as some rich couples? Shouldn’t all poor people be obligated to give up their babies if money is what is really important in life?
8 likes
This really is the same type of scare tactic tripe that pro-choicers come up with. “You’re a teenager, you can’t raise a baby. You are poor, you aren’t educated, it’s better for everyone if you don’t have this baby blah blah blah blah”. Same exact arguments, the results are lest devastating but still, we can do better than “you can’t raise your baby”
8 likes
“Teen mothers raising their children are not “playing mommy”, they are the mommy.”
That’s the thing. Most teens aren’t equipped to raise children. There are outliers like Jamie Lynne Spears, who already at least had a career and some degree of independence. However, very few girls her age are in a similar situation. Look at dependency and drop out rates among teen mothers.
“Teens were parents for thousands of years, it’s just recently that this isn’t the norm. ”
Ten year old lost their limbs in factory accidents for years. Society evolves. Our economy has revolutionized. Very few 16 year olds are equipped to handle adult responsibilities now.
“Do you have kids? Which of yours could you give to someone else if people didn’t think your home was as good as some rich couples? ”
I don’t have kids. I just graduated from college. I’m not ready, and it’s not about being rich. It’s about being equipped to support my children’s physical and emotional needs. I’m middle class, and I surely couldn’t have raised a baby at 16. Both of us would’ve suffered, as empirical data shows usually happens. It would’ve been selfish compromise a child’s future and pass the responsibility to someone else while I played mommy.
4 likes
Same exact arguments, the results are lest devastating but still, we can do better than “you can’t raise your baby”
Just about every shred of empirical studies show that being raised by a stable two parent family is better than by a teen mother.
4 likes
I agree with both Jack and Nicole. But ultimately, the focus should be on the child. You find out that a teenager is pregnant? The first words should be (1) Congratulations! and (2) What can we do that is best for your child?
If the mom can keep her baby, AMAZING. If she can’t and feels her child’s best chance is to adopt, it isn’t a tragedy. In fact, its amazing as well. It certainly is a difficult situation – but every situation involving dependents is difficult.
What is important is that the mother is not coerced, and that everyone involved is focused on what is best for the baby and how to make that possible. I think the reason so many pro-lifers bring up adoption is because it is an obvious solution to the DIRE predictions of many pro-choice advocates who paint a picture where the mother is completely incapable of raising her child. In reality, that is most often not the case (I believe). But in the really tough situations, adoption is a solution and, in the general public, is not talked about nearly enough.
6 likes
“Ten year old lost their limbs in factory accidents for years. Society evolves. Our economy has revolutionized. Very few 16 year olds are equipped to handle adult responsibilities now.”
Yes, society evolves. However, it doesn’t always evolve in positive ways. We have a lot of wonderful things in this day and age that we didn’t have before. Civil rights, gay rights, child labor regulation, domestic abuse and rape legislation and prevention, mandatory child abuse reporting, etc, etc, etc. However, we also managed to pick up some more problems along the way. Divorce rates, STD rates, legalized abortion is the biggest one. I think that treating teens like they are incapable of learning to be a responsible parent if they make a mistake and end up with an unplanned pregnancy is somewhere that we still need to work on. Teens have been capable of a lot of work and responsibility in the past, they are not completely unable to take responsibility now. I do agree with you that the way our economic system and society is set up now that it is more difficult. But it is not impossible.
A college degree and a marriage is an excellent thing to have before you have a child, and waiting until you are older to have children and marry is something that I do really support. But life happens, and just because a situation is ideal it does not mean that you are incapable of caring for your own children. I had a terribly deprived and abusive childhood (meaning I didn’t get any good examples, have a lot of mental issues, and have a lot of issues that I would probably be one of the people you say shouldn’t raise my own kids) I don’t even have a GED, I probably have the equivalent of a ninth or tenth grade education at best, work a dead end, barely above minimum job, but I still manage to support my two kids on my own with no government assistance besides insurance, with the only child support their mom pays me is buying my son’s asthma meds. It IS possible, and if a teen desperately wants to keep her baby but feels pressured and unsupported, and so ends up adopting out, I do see that as tragic.
“I don’t have kids. I just graduated from college. I’m not ready, and it’s not about being rich. It’s about being equipped to support my children’s physical and emotional needs. I’m middle class, and I surely couldn’t have raised a baby at 16. Both of us would’ve suffered, as empirical data shows usually happens. It would’ve been selfish compromise a child’s future and pass the responsibility to someone else while I played mommy.”
Well I am glad you don’t have kids if you feel that it’s not the time for you. That is the ideal. I wasn’t ready but I am glad I have mine now, though. And simply everyone suffers. I find it interesting that people who think that teen and single moms should be discouraged from keeping their own babies even when they want to are so eager to point out empirical data supporting their opinions, but they completely ignore the statistics supporting downsides to adoption (even infant adoption has poorer outcomes for the children than two biological parents raising their children).
Have you ever done any reading about or talked to anyone who was involved in the Baby Scoop Era? In the fifties, sixties and seventies, teens and unmarried women in their early twenties were coerced, pressured and often even literally forced into giving up their babies. Often for the same reasons that you are talking about. There were millions of more adoptions per year than there are now. The effects on the natural mothers and the children were absolutely devastating. I do not want that to happen in this country again.
5 likes
“Just about every shred of empirical studies show that being raised by a stable two parent family is better than by a teen mother”
Studies also show that two parents homes are better than single parent homes where the single parent is any age as well. Would you suggest that a poor, divorced mother have to give up her child, or would you suggest I have to give up my kids? Is it selfish for us to believe that we, as their parents, should be caring for and loving our kids?
5 likes
“What is important is that the mother is not coerced, and that everyone involved is focused on what is best for the baby and how to make that possible. I think the reason so many pro-lifers bring up adoption is because it is an obvious solution to the DIRE predictions of many pro-choice advocates who paint a picture where the mother is completely incapable of raising her child. In reality, that is most often not the case (I believe). But in the really tough situations, adoption is a solution and, in the general public, is not talked about nearly enough.”
I really agree with your comment Dolce. I do think that people should talk about adoption more often, but in a realistic way. They should be given information on all types of adoption (especially they need to be told that open adoptions are not legally enforceable in most states, they are completely dependent on the goodwill of the adoptive parents, and adoption agencies lie about the reality of open adoptions). They should have a chance to talk to natural mothers who have adopted out their children and how they are coping with this. They should talk to a mother who had a good adoption experience and a mother who had a bad one. My friend I was talking about, I watched her cry for five hours straight on her son’s birthday, and she’s tried to commit suicide before as well. There can be real damage, and it’s not fair for people to pretend it doesn’t exist. I just want honestly and transparency that I think can be lacking in the adoption industry in the US. And I don’t want a single woman or girl feeling forced or pressured into giving up their baby.
5 likes
Anyway I said my piece. I just hope if anyone is reading this that has considered adopting, please go to this website and consider fostering or adopting one of these children:
http://www.adoptuskids.org/
Healthy newborns, especially Caucasian or light skinned babies, have millions of people who want them. These kids have no one. I really hope people at least consider (or if you are religious) pray about taking in a child who has medical issues (AIDS is a common one that adoptive parents don’t feel like dealing with), or who has been abused, or is in foster care with a sibling and they need to stay together, or who is simply to old for the the newborn seekers to be interested in. Even sadder, minority children are less likely to be adopted even as infants and toddlers. At least consider temporarily fostering a child while you are on a waiting list for a newborn, teenagers especially have difficulty finding a home to even temporarily live in. Remember biological parents have children with “issues” as well, we can’t always have a “perfect” baby. We all learn to cope and these children can bring even more joy and they deserve love too.
5 likes
Yes, society evolves. However, it doesn’t always evolve in positive ways.
No, it doesn’t. The growing acceptance of teen parenthood in certain(mostly lower socioeconomic) communities has led to 29 year old grandmothers relying of welfare to raise their grandkids while mom and dad serve time.
”Teens have been capable of a lot of work and responsibility in the past, they are not completely unable to take responsibility now. ”
The stats show this isn’t true for most. The majority of teens mothers rely on welfare and drop out of high school. Less than 1% graduate from college. You can’t rely on outliers to make your point.
It IS possible, and if a teen desperately wants to keep her baby but feels pressured and unsupported, and so ends up adopting out, I do see that as tragic.
If a teen were truly ready to be a parent she wouldn’t be able to be forced into placing her child for adoption. If those who she wants to pass the responsibility to(usually her parents) aren’t up for it I don’t see why it’s tragic for the baby to be with someone who is ready for parenthood.
Have you ever done any reading about or talked to anyone who was involved in the Baby Scoop Era?
Those were closed adoptions in an era when being adopted was considered shameful.
Would you suggest that a poor, divorced mother have to give up her child, or would you suggest I have to give up my kids?
Of course not. Giving up an older child is far more difficult, and there aren’t many waiting families. Nevermind that children of divorced parents fair far better than those of single teens.
My friend I was talking about, I watched her cry for five hours straight on her son’s birthday, and she’s tried to commit suicide before as well.
Committing suicide is not a normal reaction. Your friend clearly has underlying issues that are not her bio son’s job to fix.
5 likes
I have been asked what I would counsel in the case of a pregnant female who said she absolutely under no circumstances would raise the baby. She would either abort or place for adoption.
I would try to counsel toward carrying to term and placing for adoption. I would urge an open adoption because I believe children tend to fantasize in extremes, thinking “my ‘real’ mother is an all-understanding goddess” or “my ‘real’ mother is a prostitute.” Meeting her on occasion will let them know she is probably neither.
2 likes
Jack, I am loving your comments in this thread, especially the one about “adopting” a teen mother.
I actually read a [really cheesy] beach novel some time ago whose protagonist was a woman struggling with infertility. A teenager that she had taken under her wing as an employee/protege got pregnant and, over the course of the pregnancy, the woman agreed to adopt the girl’s baby. It was a difficult decision and the teenager was [rightly] shown to have gone through lots of anguish to arrive at it. When the baby was born, she just couldn’t go through with it, and she thought that everyone would hate her and attempted to run away with her child. In the end, the woman re-examined her desire for a baby and realized that there were other ways to be a “parent.” She “adopted” the teenager and cared for her as though she were her own child, cared for her child so that she could finish school, etc. The reality is that for most of the time that teenagers were having children, they weren’t doing it without family or community support.
It was a really crappy chick-lit book that I was embarrassed to even be reading, but I was surprised at how well it delved into the silent coercion that can masquerade as help when it comes to adoption. Telling a girl, in any way, that someone else will be a better mother to her child than she will, and then acting like she should be grateful, is really terrible. I think that every girl who is considering adoption should be asked if she would make a different choice if she had a reliable home, affordable child care to help her finish school, etc. If the answer is yes then what she NEEDS is a reliable home and affordable child care, not new parents for her baby.
6 likes
@ Alexandra: People who want to adopt often help out the pregnant girl or woman during the pregnancy because they assume that she is, in effect, having a baby for them. However, if she decides to raise the baby after she bears it, they have no grounds to recover any of the money or other resources they provided her.
I’m not against such people helping out pregnant girls or women by any means. It is just important to realize that there is no pre-natal adoption (as yet). The experience of carrying for 9 months and giving birth forms a very powerful emotional bond. Some mothers may need a great deal of assistance in raising their young but they are unlikely to sever that powerful bond.
Almost everyone recognizes that the mother bonds to the baby. It is not at all off-the-wall to suggest that the baby also bonds to the mother.
1 likes
Denise Noe,
You have been warned. Your “adoptees as serial killers” rants will be immediately deleted.
What comes next?
You will be asked not to comment here for a time.
After that?
You will be banned.
4 likes
On a totally unrelated note, thanks for sharing the Secular Pro-Life link re: the abortionist job posting.
3 likes
Good Morning Alexandra,
I have been thinking about you and hoping to catch you on a thread. I hope that situation we discussed has been straightened out.
2 likes
Hi Mary! Everything is still mostly the same in that situation, unfortunately. I recently scored very well on a work qualification exam that is only offered every 4 years or so – this opens up a lot of doors for me professionally – and it was hard not to call my dad about that, since I knew he would be so proud. But I drew the line in the sand with that crazy behavior and I can’t cross it. That test was about a month ago and I guess word eventually trickled back to him so now he is e-mailing me trying to congratulate me and talk about that and open up a channel of communication that way. It is just very hard to deal with, emotionally, but this is exactly what I told him I would do and exactly what I told him would happen. I told him that the door is always open for him to come back to me but in order for that to happen, he needs to acknowledge and respond to the harassment and stalking and accusations that his girlfriend has brought into my life. He can’t just come back and pretend that nothing happened. So I can’t respond to his kind and congratulatory gestures and it just sucks. I can hear how desperate he is and how much he misses me but…I just can’t.
As far as the crazy girlfriend, I did notify the police so that there is a record existing if she ever tries to contact me again.
2 likes
Hi Kelsey,
I found that ad very interesting as well. No experience necessary? Of course your first criteria for selecting a physician is that he/she has no experience in the area in which you need help. Who will train? So its on the job training? Any specialty? So someone who hasn’t done a surgical procedure in years or who has never trained in any type of surgical procedure is welcome. Medical residents can apply. Great. Unsupervised doctor in training. Just who I want working on me. No on call. So who covers emergencies or after hour patient concerns? Board eligibility not required? Come on, they don’t even have to be Board eligible? You folks are really scraping the barrel here.
Must be respectful of women. I can just see some sex offender’s eyes lighting up when he reads this ad.
At least this ad shows the desperate straits the abortion industry has been reduced to, and why the safety of women is obviously not a priority. Under no circumstances would a hospital or surgery center even consider using this criteria to hire physicians. If it wasn’t to have such tragic consequences it would be laughable.
2 likes
For those who think I’m prejudiced against adoptees, a close friend who is adopted was in a bad way. I made a special trip — difficult because I don’t drive and rely on public transit — just to give him $10 and a box of crackers.
0 likes
Hi Alexandra,
Well let me be among the first to congratulate you. That’s wonderful news and I wish you every success. My heart goes out to you concerning your father. Very heartbreaking decision to make and maintain, but you have to follow your head as well as your heart.
Hopefully his attempts to reach out to you are the first sign of the door cracking open.
As for that woman, the police report may have unnerved her and showed her you meant business. Harassing people is one thing, a call or visit from the police is quite another.
I mentioned my brother’s neighbor. As soon as the police report was filed, presto, nicest guy in the world. Of course the fact my brother is an ex cop may have been a bit unnerving as well!
2 likes
Here’s a suggestion to make adoption more palatable: the adoptive parents hire the birthmother as the nanny.
0 likes
Reading many of the posts debating adoption and teen parenting only really reinforce one thing for me. Sex is not for teens. Truly it’s for married couples, but I digress…Teens should be viewed as the CHILDREN they are and be educated as to why having sex is never in their best interest. Ever. The public schools won’t do it. Thank God my kids have parents who will!
4 likes
Becca says:
November 17, 2012 at 10:16 am
Reading many of the posts debating adoption and teen parenting only really reinforce one thing for me. Sex is not for teens. Truly it’s for married couples, but I digress…Teens should be viewed as the CHILDREN they are and be educated as to why having sex is never in their best interest. Ever. The public schools won’t do it. Thank God my kids have parents who will!
(Denise) We must revive chaperoned dating and have greater adult supervision so that sex will be less common. Sex between unmarried teenagers can trigger disasters of many sorts. We might not be able to completely stop it but we can do a lot to decrease it.
3 likes
Thank you, Jack Borsch, for pointing out the http://www.adoptuskids.org site. These kids might not be ‘cute babies’, (Ages for the kids in my state range from 10-17) but they definitely need a good home with a forever family who will give them the love and care they deserve. Some of these kids have lost their parents through crime, illness or accidents, some have been taken away because of abuse. All of them deserve to have a permanent, loving home. Sure, many of them have challenges and special needs, but they are not in any way insurmountable. In my opinion this shows what adoption should really be about–children who need homes.
4 likes
I’m middle class, and I surely couldn’t have raised a baby at 16.
But you were smart enough to get to and through college. Scary who they let graduate these days.
5 likes
But you were smart enough to get to and through college.
Considering the fact that less than 1% of teen mothers graduate from college it’s hardly an outlier that someone smart enough to comprehend the statistics that show the vast majority of teen mothers aren’t equipped to successfully raise children would be more likely to make it through college. It’s a matter of both confounding variables and causation.
Scary who they let graduate these days.
Considering women with college degrees have the most successful parenting outcomes it’s scary who they let raise children.
6 likes
I think this job description shows how dangerously unregulated abortion is in this country. It’s scary how low they are willing to go, but its even scarier that the government will let them In most states anyone with an MD can perform an abortion and in some, the requirements are less than that. It’s terrifying.
4 likes
The idea that all it takes is reasonable intellect to raise a child at 16 is an especially repugnent narrative that harms young women. Such facts-don’t-matter rheteric only contributes to a self-defeating cycle that is especially pervasiv among girls who struggle intellectually. This is only the most recent study showing that teen pregnancy is confined largely to girls with poor educational opportunities.
The findings revealed girls with below-average reading skills were 2.5 times more likely to have a child during their teenage years when compared to girls of the same age with above-average reading skills. Among teens with below-average reading skills, 21 percent of girls had a second child during their teen years, and 3 percent of girls with below-average reading skills had two or more additional births before age 20.
Read more: http://www.voxxi.com/teen-pregnancy-reading-skills/#ixzz2CVBj8de0
2 likes
Considering women with college degrees have the most successful parenting outcomes it’s scary who they let raise children.
Sounds like you think women should have to fit your mold before they are allowed to raise children.
Let me tell you something lil Miss College Educated Elite, you don’t need a college degree to love and raise a child. Women successfully raised people before they were even allowed to go to college or before many of them even could read. It’s the abortion-saturated, divorce-loving, women-degrading, money-hungry system that is busted, not prolife women or teens.
You sure don’t give women much credit, do you?
4 likes
Hi JDC,
The irony of “must be respectful of women” just struck me. Here are abortion mills that will hire anyone and everyone with no regard to credentials, qualifications, and experience thus putting unsuspecting women at serious risk.
Oh yes, its also “lucrative” and a great way to “supplement” an income. Just think of the money you can rake in.
You are willing to put a woman at serious risk, and make a pile of dough doing it. What could be more respectful?
7 likes
Sounds like you think women should have to fit your mold before they are allowed to raise children.
More like you have reading comprehension issues. You implied that because I realized that I(as well as most other teens) wasn’t equipped to raise a child at 16(something that is supported by countless studies) I lacked basic intellect, thus suggesting that teens who think they could parent are smarter than those who realize the need to wait and attend college. Not only are teens who postpone parenthood and attend college generally smarter. They make better parents as well. I was merely resonding to your assertion that anyone who isn’t smart enough to raise a child at 16 isn’t smart enough to deserve a degree.
Let me tell you something lil Miss College Educated Elite, you don’t need a college degree to love and raise a child.
I never said you did. You do typically need to at least be an adult to successfully raise one though.
Women successfully raised people before they were even allowed to go to college or before many of them even could read.
People became doctors by the time they were 20. People could support a family with an 8th grade education. Times change. Nevermind most of those women were married. The fact remains that a teen today doesn’t have much shot at providing any kind of life for a child. Saying that doesn’t make me an elitist. It makes me a realist.
5 likes
Hi Mary,
Good points. I swear I have never seen a job posting that dwelt so much on how lucrative the position is, especially one that also spends so much on how little qualification is needed. The whole thing just seems so corrupt.
6 likes
Oh, and 16 year olds aren’t “women”. They are minors.
3 likes
Oh, and college graduates have the lowest abortion and divorce rates:
Women with a college education had the lowest abortion rate (13 per 1000 women) and showed the greatest decline in abortion rates (30%) since 1994.
http://core.arhp.org/search/searchDetail.aspx?itemId=1001
“Among white women, there were few differences according to education, but those with a college degree experienced lower divorce rates than any other education group,”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111103161830.htm
Sorry to disrupt your stereotying of educated women as baby aborting and divorce loving with facts.
4 likes
Hi Nicole,
Interesting point about an 8th grade education. My grandmother graduated from the 8th able to read, write and speak fluently… in two languages. Nowadays you’re surprised if they can just read and write English, and maybe even speak it properly, at the 8th grade level.
Also, my father ran a very successful business without ever finishing high school and my mother supported a family as a single mother, on a secretarial course she learned in high school.
4 likes
Here is a website on adoption problems http://www.adoptionunchartedwaters.com
And NO, the problem is NOT foster care. Most of the cases dealt with were people adopted as infants.
0 likes
Oh, and college graduates have the lowest abortion and divorce rates:
LOL. That’s because so many of them abort their babies during college to finish college. The prolife women their age choose to postpone/quit college, maybe indefinitely, to actually bear their children and raise them.
People became doctors by the time they were 20. People could support a family with an 8th grade education.
Yeah and they didn’t rationalize killing their children in order to get a degree to hang on the wall.
I was merely resonding to your assertion that anyone who isn’t smart enough to raise a child at 16 isn’t smart enough to deserve a degree.
Wrong. I was merely responding to your bull crap that you you couldn’t have raised a child as a middle-class 16 year-old.
In regards to your delusions that I have reading comprehension issues, I will refrain from pointing out your poor sentence structure and punctuation and spelling deficiencies.
4 likes
Pointing out the extremely “anti-life” associations of adoption does not justify abortion.
It gives us reason to take a second look at the adoption process and experience. It might be possible for adoptive parents and others involved with adoption to change those horrible statistics. Perhaps they must recognize that adopted children need more of certain things than other children do. Perhaps we must study the differences between how people treat adopted children and others. The answer is not to ignore negatives. It is to study the reasons for them and attempt to address them.
Knowing the negatives about adoption gives us reason to work to ensure that the women who get pregnant are the ones who are willing to have and raise babies.
Having said that, I will also say that I believe adoption will always exist. Women will die in childbirth or early in a child’s life and someone else will have to raise those babies. That someone else should be informed that adopted children may have special needs so attention may be paid to those needs.
2 likes
“Jack, I am loving your comments in this thread, especially the one about “adopting” a teen mother.”
Yeah one of my friends mentioned this one and I thought it was a fantastic idea. The adopting couple would get to have a baby in their home and help care for it, plus they could build a relationship with this girl. It would be good for everyone, I think. I know it wouldn’t be feasible for everyone, but come on. If adoption is really about what is best for the child and not about fulfilling the desires of infertile couples then it could be something to think about.
“People could support a family with an 8th grade education.”
Lol I have the equivalent of that much education and I can handle taking care of my family. You can make do. You seem to think that everyone is all “yay teen moms everyone should have kids as a teenager!”. That’s not what I am saying. Teen pregnancy should be avoided as much as possible but when it happens, I don’t agree with shaming girls into giving up their kids.
5 likes
One MAJOR reason for many problems is that people “need” college to support themselves in a middle-class lifestyle. That means people have to wait until mid-20s to really be adults with families. We need a DRASTIC overhaul so people can MARRY young and have babies within marriage. The delay of the ability of people to really grow up — caused in large part by the “necessity” of so many years of education — is at the root of many problem pregnancies.
1 likes
LOL. That’s because so many of them abort their babies during college to finish college.
You clearly haven’t a clue about the demographics of women having abortions. They are disproportionately poor, uneducated, minority, and already have children. The stats don’t suport your theory about career minded women recklessly getting pregnant and aborting at the drop of a hat to make it to the next test. Not only are educated women less likely to have had or have an abortion. They are less likely to engage in risky sexual behavior or have an unplanned pregnancy.
Yeah and they didn’t rationalize killing their children in order to get a degree to hang on the wall.
First of all, they didn’t need college educations back then. You clearly don’t understand our changing job market and economy. This isn’t an agrarian society anymore. Second, most were married. The mother cared for the children while the father supported the family. Lastly, those have abortions or drop out of school and pop out babies is a false dichotomy. The same demographics that have the highest abortion rates are also most likely to become teen parents and not graduate from high school or college. Better educated women are more likely to choose adoption in the event of an unplanned pregnancy as well.
Wrong. I was merely responding to your bull crap that you you couldn’t have raised a child as a middle-class 16 year-old.
It was bull crap that I hadn’t graduated from high school at 16? It was bull crap that I would’ve had to have dropped out just to pay for childcare? It was bull crap that I would’ve had to have gone on welfare or relied on my parents to make ends meat? It’s bull crap I’d be barely surviving even after that? Is it bull crap that children of teen parents are significantly more likely to have trouble in school, trouble with the law, and be teen parents themselves? Is it bull crap that the vast majority of teen parents don’t graduate from high school and even less from college?
In regards to your delusions that I have reading comprehension issues, I will refrain from pointing out your poor sentence structure and punctuation and spelling deficiencies.
It’s ironic that someone who doesn’t know when to use a comma is commenting on my punctuation and sentence structure in a passive aggressive manner…”your poor sentence structure, punctuation, and spelling deficiencies” would be proper.
4 likes
One MAJOR reason for many problems is that people “need” college to support themselves in a middle-class lifestyle.
That’s true. Most entry level positions around here require a bachelor’s degree at minimum, and a lot of recent grads still can’t find a decent job.
6 likes
Lol I have the equivalent of that much education and I can handle taking care of my family.
A GED is not the equivalent of an 8th Grade education.
You can make do.
My mother is a teacher with a master’s degree and couldn’t maintain a basic middle class lifestyle on her income alone. I’m curious what your definition of making due is.
4 likes
You misread me. I *don’t* have a GED. I don’t have any formal education at all, actually. I never went to school. I didn’t learn to read until I was almost nine. From my own studies and reading I would guess I have about a ninth or so grade education, it’s all self-taught though. It doesn’t meant that I am somehow incapable of caring for my children.
“My mother is a teacher with a master’s degree and couldn’t maintain a basic middle class lifestyle on her income alone. I’m curious what your definition of making due is”
Being able to pay your rent, your bills, and being able to feed and clothe your kids. I think you and I have much different ideas about what life is about. I don’t think it’s necessary to own your own home and a nice car and go to the best schools to be just fine. My kids don’t need to go to theme parks and own an XBox and PS3 to have good childhoods, they are well taken care of and their needs are met. Some of their *wants* may not be met, but wants aren’t necessities. There are really bad parts about being poor, healthcare being the biggest one imo, but you don’t have to be middle class to be okay.
I don’t think you’ve ever lived in poverty or struggled much. You seem to see life as somehow lesser if you don’t have a certain standard of living.
6 likes
Would things be better if most people could at least support themselves by age 18?
If young marriages were more economically solvent?
1 likes
I’m a teacher’s kid. I know what it’s like to struggle financially. European vacations and private schools were not part of my standard of living. We had good health coverage, a small house in a decent neighborhood, a safe car, and maybe a vacation to Florida every few years.
1 likes
Oh wow you struggled a lot. Very difficult. Lol. If you think that’s struggling, I am beginning to see why you are so down on poor and uneducated mothers. Us who live in poverty must look like we are barely alive to you.
6 likes
My mother couldn’t have afforded that before she married my step-father. My father was an alcoholic who abandoned her. We barely survived on a single income. It was awful.
0 likes
Does an open adoption mean that the birthmother regularly sees and holds the baby?
If so, is this legally enforceable?
0 likes
Well I’m sorry that your dad is a jerk, that is really hard. I’m not trying to be a jerk to you but I don’t quite understand what you are arguing. You have an issue with teens raising their babies because of poor outcomes. You ignore any downsides of adoption itself in favor of that. What is your solution, btw? I have put forward a few ideas I think would help these issues, but you just seem to think that teens shouldn’t be allowed to raise their own babies.
3 likes
“Does an open adoption mean that the birthmother regularly sees and holds the baby?
If so, is this legally enforceable?”
There are different forms of open adoptions Denise. It’s up to the natural mother and the adoptive parents to set terms. And no, in most states this is not legally enforceable. The natural mother has no rights, and if the adoptive parents go back on their word she has little legal recourse.
3 likes
I’m not trying to be a jerk to you but I don’t quite understand what you are arguing.
I’m arguing that teens should be discouraged from parenting children and not enabled the way they are in the inner city. Middle class teens are far more likely place their children for adoption because their families expect more from them then to become a parent before they are ready.
You ignore any downsides of adoption itself in favor of that. What is your solution, btw?
I think the best solution is open adoption, and I do think the agreements should be legally enforceable. Most importantly, I think it’s pretty evident that teens with more opportunities are less likely to become pregnant in the first place. They don’t need to look for fulfillment in men and enter relationships they aren’t ready for. Alaska has the highest teen pregnancy rate, and New Hampshire has the lowest. This is hardly a coincidence. Women in NH have access to the best colleges and tend to come from families that encourage participation in a variety of activities. NH is also the state with one of the highest rates of volunteerism(VT is #1.). We need to give young girls the resources so they can discover their talents and passions. Boredom and too little education is a bad combination.
5 likes
@ Nicole: I’ve explained that the reasons for the negatives of adoption aren’t because adoptees came out of the foster care system. They are true for those adopted shortly after they were born.
What do you think the reasons for these negatives are apt to be?
Several have been suggested. For example, the baby might suffer an automatic trauma because having grown inside a particular female, the baby is biologically strongly bonded to the mother so suffers when that bond is severed. It has been suggested that babies placed for adoption are more likely to have genetic problems. It has been suggested that birthmothers who plan to place for adoption are more apt to abuse drugs or get poor prenatal care. It has been suggested that adoptive parents may not be able to respond emotionally in the same sense as to a biological child. Some people have suggested that adoptive parents feel on shakier ground so they don’t discipline the child the same as they would a biological child. When adoptions were always closed, children are likely to fantasize in extremes, thinking the birthmother was a wonderful goddess or a prostitute.
What do you think accounts for the negatives of adoption?
1 likes
You misread me.
Maybe Nicole has a reading comprehension issue. No, that couldn’t be it. Nicole is too highly educated.
In regards to your comma comment, Nicole, both versions are correct. My generation was taught a comma was not needed in the above scenario and your generation has been taught differently. Ask a Language Arts teacher over age sixty if you don’t believe me.
I’m not going to get in arguments about how much more educated than me you are. It’s immature. If every child gets a college education, will there be enough jobs (for the coveted careers many will feel entitled to have) for all of them?
My beef with you is your lie that you couldn’t have raised a child at age sixteen. You could have. Not wanting to is way different than not being able to. And both of your parents would have been obligated to help you until you were eighteen.
Arrogance and too much education is a bad combination.
3 likes
My beef with you is your lie that you couldn’t have raised a child at age sixteen.
No, I could not have. I would’ve had to pass the responsibility to my parents or Uncle Sam to merely survive. The most I could do at that point would be drop out of school and make barely enough for childcare. Even that would be hardly enough to provide my child with the attention and resources necessary to truly thrive. It’s no wonder children of teen mothers are likely to become teen parents themselves.
What do you think accounts for the negatives of adoption?
I think it’s a combination of being shamed for being adopted when it was taboo and the unknowns of closed adoption.
3 likes
Nicole, you are not talking about the other parent who would have been equally responsible in helping you raise a child. If he was underage, his parents would have had an obligation to help you out as well.
If you got pregnant at sixteen, you would not be passing responsibility on to your parents because they are already responsible for you until you were eighteen. Unless you, the father and both sets of grandparents were destitute, I don’t believe Uncle Sam would have owed you squat.
Btw, I got help with daycare from family and friends when I was in my 20s. None of us gets through this life without getting help in one way or another. I took hand-me-down clothes and clipped coupons. I worked more than one job. Are you telling me there was no one in your life that would have helped you out at sixteen? I’m sure there were those surrounding you that helped you get to and through college one way or another. You have not and will not always be self-sufficient.
I don’t think having a baby at sixteen is ideal. I don’t think having a baby at 30 from a one-nighter is ideal either. I don’t think it was ideal that my parents had my sister so close after I was born. I don’t think having a baby from rape is ideal. I don’t think putting a baby in daycare 40+ hours a week is ideal. Life is not ideal.
You make excuses and rationalize.
4 likes
Nicole, you are not talking about the other parent who would have been equally responsible in helping you raise a child.
Who would most likely be in high school as well…
If he was underage, his parents would have had an obligation to help you out as well.
Passing the consequences of our actions onto someon else. How responsible…
Are you telling me there was no one in your life that would have helped you out at sixteen?
You mean people who would take on the financial burden of my child? Possibly, but then I wouldn’t be really raising my child.
Unless you, the father and both sets of grandparents were destitute, I don’t believe Uncle Sam would have owed you squat.
Teen pregnancy costs the federal government 10 billion a year. You really think all those grandparents are destitute?
I’m sure there were those surrounding you that helped you get to and through college one way or another. You have not and will not always be self-sufficient.
Of course not, but my parents were living up to their responsibilities. That’s far different from pushing one’s parental responsibilities onto someone else.
You make excuses and rationalize.
No, I see reality. Teenagers do not have the emotional maturity or financial stability to successfully raise a child, at least without pushing their responsibilities onto someone else. It severely limits the potential of both parents and child. A good parent wants to give their child the best start possible. Every shred of evidence reveals that is with married adults. Seeing this isn’t rationalizing or making excuses, and acting accordingly is being responsible and selfless. Adoption is the ultimate act of parental love.
4 likes
And for some sources just how “not ideal” teen parenting is:
80% of young teenage moms end up in poverty and on welfare.
The sons of young teenage moms are 2.7 times more likely to end up in prison than sons born to girls who did not bear children until they were at least 20.
If teenage girls delayed childbearing until after the age of 21, the rate and costs would be reduced even further. In addition, if less of these young men are incarcerated, then they are able to better contribute to the support of their own children.
A study in Illinois found that children of teenage mothers are twice as likely to be abused and neglected than are children of 20 or 21 year old mothers. It is estimated that as many as 5% of foster-care placements would not be needed if teenage childbearing were eliminated.
http://www.adoption-education.com/library_stats.htm
3 likes
And so much for support from the father:
As noted above, teen mothers are more likely to live apart from the father of their child than older mothers. Unfortunately, these mothers get very little in the way of child support. About one-quarter (24 percent) of teen mothers reported receiving any formal or informal child support in the prior year. Among those who did receive child support, payments averaged only about $2,000 per year.
13 http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/why-it-matters/pdf/Childbearing-SingleParenthood-FatherInvolvement.pdf
3 likes
Teen pregnancy costs the federal government 10 billion a year. You really think all those grandparents are destitute?
Nope, they are not. I think I pointed out earlier that the system is broke. People are encouraged to behave any way they want and everyone else will pay for it. That has caught up to us.
Teenagers do not have the emotional maturity or financial stability to successfully raise a child, at least without pushing their responsibilities onto someone else.
The parents/family/friends I know who helped teens with their babies did not feel “pushed upon.” Maybe you and your circle would. Although I wasn’t a teen, people who helped me out did not feel pushed upon nor did I feel pushed upon when I in turn helped friends/family out with their children. It’s called family and friendship.
It severely limits the potential of both parents and child.
But it is you who is defining what everyone’s potential should be.
A good parent wants to give their child the best start possible.
Right. But as I explained, it will never be perfect. I am the realist. You live in fantasy land where every parent must be over eighteen, have a college degree, be married, has a great paying career, has a house, a blacktop driveway, a new crib, neighboring playmates, a savings account started for college, a puppy and 2.5 goldfish.
Every shred of evidence reveals that is with married adults.
I agree; however, as I stated earlier we do not live in an ideal world. I teach teens about the importance of abstinence and marriage so you’re not telling me anything new here.
Adoption is the ultimate act of parental love.
In some cases yes but this should not be based solely on the fact the mother is a teen. There were four middle-class teen mothers in my graduating class of about 100. They were the talk of the town at the time. To abort or give up the baby for adoption was thrown at them. If they really could not do it, I agree adoption is the answer.
All four kept their babies. They have all done a wonderful job raising their children. Two of the four have a college degree — one of those has two degrees. Three of the four went on to marry the father of their child, had more children together and are all still married today. One shared custody with the father and married someone else several years later. They had a child together and are still married. I’m glad you weren’t around to tell them they couldn’t do it.
There is a young couple in my area who is due next month. They are both high school seniors. She is taking high school classes and training to become a CNA. He works after school and weekends in the restaurant business. My husband and I told the father how proud we were of him and that they can do this and don’t be afraid to ask for help. Stop discouraging people and start encouraging them. If they need help, help them. Don’t tell them they can’t do it.
3 likes
Nicole @ 9:33 and 9:56
Yes, I have agreed that teen parenting is less than ideal. It is not, however, impossible in many circumstances. We are all called to help out. I could have done it, you could have done it and many others can do it with encouragement, prayers, opportunity and good old-fashioned help.
4 likes
Nicole says:
November 17, 2012 at 6:55 pm
What do you think accounts for the negatives of adoption?
I think it’s a combination of being shamed for being adopted when it was taboo and the unknowns of closed adoption.
(Denise) Those reasons make sense. You may well be right. However, I’d like to discuss another possibility. Most people automatically acknowledge that the birthmother would “grieve” or “mourn” her separation from the baby she has carried for 9 months and to whom she has given birth. After all, she is conscious. The baby is not yet conscious so people don’t consider the attachment he or she has formed. But isn’t it reasonable to believe that the baby is attached to the particular female in which he or she grew and developed prior to birth? Isn’t it likely that the baby at a biological, pre-conscious level, recognizes the particular, special chemical and biological make-up of the organism within which he or she formed — and feels a tremendous loss when taken away from that — to the baby — very special organism? That particular mother?
Perhaps a baby, at a pre-conscious level, automatically feels the loss of the mother.
0 likes
I want to add that I believe open adoptions are a good idea and COULD work to reduce the negatives of adoption. People have a tendency to fantasize in extremes. An adopted child will think, “My biological mother is a better person than this awful adoptive mother” or “My biological mother must have been a prostitute.” If the child sees and interacts with the birthmother on occasion, that child will know that she is neither goddess nor scarlet woman but a regular human being like the adoptive mother.
0 likes
Passing the consequences of our actions onto someon else. How responsible…
Nicole, you remind me of a certain 3-year old I know who is so desperately invested in his cry of “I wanna do it myself!” that he ends up unable to do anything. The reality is, very few people can do very many things by themselves. It is not “passing consequences on” to ask, and rely on, your family or even your community.
I don’t have a car. This is because I live in NYC and am lucky enough to have an awesome transportation system, but it means that if I want to go visit my mom, it’s a nightmare of a commute using different city and county train and bus systems to get someplace that is only 40 minutes away by car. I could do it but it would be really, really difficult. So on those days, my mom just drives to pick me up at work. She sometimes even drives to pick me up at work and take me to my out-of-city specialty doctor, when I need to go there, even when there’s nothing in it for her. Our current socioeconomic set of beliefs says that I should be ashamed of this; what 29-year old relies on her MOM to drive her places she needs to go?
But I’m not. When my mom goes to visit my sister out west, I watch her dogs for free, and it’s an immense relief to her not to need to arrange that every time with a kennel or sitter. I mow her lawn in the summer and I help her move the patio furniture once the cold weather comes. It is not “passing consequences on” to use, and rely on, the family and even community network that you have been raised in. It is just being a family and community member.
We don’t see the value in that anymore because we don’t want to be community members, or even family members. We don’t want to help, so we don’t want to accept help and owe anything. But in reality, this idea that everybody can, and SHOULD, do it all by themselves is a fairly new one, and in my opinion a pretty unsustainable one.
It is silent coercion to present the lie that parents “should” be able to do everything involved in raising kids themselves, and to say that any parent who can’t is probably just not ready to be a parent. Nobody does anything themselves. But we don’t shame the college kids whose parents share their tuition as “passing on their responsibilities.” We don’t shame the people who rely on the network in the “right” ways. We don’t even acknowledge them a lot of the time. We only acknowledge the “wrong” ways to rely on your family and community; the shameful ways. It’s sick.
That toddler I mentioned is a wreck a lot of days. He eats bland food because he wants to grind the pepper or serve the parmesan cheese by himself, but can’t do it right immediately, so he gets frustrated and intimidated and gives up. He shivers because he wants to zip his coat up himself but it gets stuck, and he gives up because he “can’t do it.” His little toddler day is like that in a thousand different ways – his fierce desire for independence actually stunts him, because if he can’t do it by himself then he just won’t do it, and you don’t learn to do things – or get to enjoy things – without doing them, without having someone help you do them. He clings so tightly to the idea that he wants to do it alone that it actually sets him back, developmentally, from kids who more readily accept help, accept their place in a network of helping and doing. I worry a lot about him, actually. Oh, he’s plenty intelligent. He’s one of the smartest kids at his daycare and he knows all his numbers and letters already. But that stuff – that stuff, the letters and numbers and earth science and calculus and philosophy – it’s easier to learn than the real stuff, the who to be and how to be.
Nobody does it themselves. Not for most of history and not now. We just no longer really acknowledge the ways in which we accept “good” help. We don’t acknowledge the richness of needing and giving, the bonds it can set in stone. We want to know that if every bond we have shattered tomorrow, our lives would still be exactly the same. It is in my opinion a sad way to live but more importantly it is an unrealistic way to live. And it’s cruel to take that unrealistic view of the world and hold it up in front of young women who need, and accept, help.
4 likes
And Mary – thank you. :)
2 likes
As a society, we need to make drastic changes so people can feasibly marry fairly young. This would mean that there would be less sex outside marriage.
We also need to revamp so that teenagers aren’t in situations likely to lead to sexual activity.
Prevention is best. We need to decrease destructive sexual activity.
0 likes
I just thought of something. Would adoption have fewer problems if human laid eggs?
1 likes
Lol Denise.
4 likes
@ JackBorsch: I’m quite serious. Some of the problems to which adoptees are prone may be based on severing the connection that developed in the womb with the birthmother. If we laid eggs, this connection wouldn’t develop and a non-biological mother might be able to do just as well as the bio mom since the young in an egg-laying species wouldn’t develop that initial connection.
0 likes
This thread officially just got interesting. :)
2 likes
I think the point that needs to be made about adoption is that it both helps and harms the baby placed for adoption. Birthmothers are often led to think that adoption placement might harm the birthmother but it is 100% good for the baby and therefore the most sacrificially beautiful decision. What they must be told is that placing the baby for adoption will inevitably have both positive and negative effects on the child. The birthmother must weight out whether or not she believes the benefits of (probably) a 2-parent and (hopefully) financially stable home outweigh the inevitable harm the baby will suffer when the natural relationship with her is broken.
0 likes
Okay, that’s all I can handle silently. My brother and I are both adopted as infants. We have AMAZING parents. It was a closed adoption for both of us, we grew up knowing we were adopted, and neither of us feel that there is a hole in our lives, that our birth mother was a prostitute or better than our adoptive mother, or any of some of the nonsense that’s been tossed about. The most intense feelings I have about my birth parents is some lingering curiosity. We’re both happy, well rounded adults who love our PARENTS- who were infertile, desperately wanted children, and gave us the most incredible lives they could. My adoptive parents ARE my parents- your parents are the people who raise you, love you, and teach you about the world and how to treat others. If you think that anything other than that matters to a child…I don’t know what to tell you.
3 likes
your parents are the people who raise you, love you, and teach you about the world and how to treat others.
Amen.
3 likes
We’re both happy, well rounded adults who love our PARENTS- who were infertile, desperately wanted children, and gave us the most incredible lives they could. My adoptive parents ARE my parents- your parents are the people who raise you, love you, and teach you about the world and how to treat others. If you think that anything other than that matters to a child…I don’t know what to tell you.
(Denise) I’m glad you had a good adoption experience. So have others — many others.
However, adopted people as a group are likely to have more problems than other people.
When someone asks: Does your family have a history of diabetes or cancer, do you give them the history of your adoptive family?
Thought experiment: mothers in a maternity ward give birth. But they don’t get back to take home the babies that came out of them. Instead, babies are randomly distributed.
Any possible negative effects?
0 likes
Praxedes says:
November 18, 2012 at 12:19 pm
your parents are the people who raise you, love you, and teach you about the world and how to treat others.
Amen.
(Denise) So the woman who carries for 9 months and endures childbirth to bring forth life is what?
A container?
An adopted person has 2 mothers. He or she may well have only one “Dad” with the
man who deposited sperm little more than that. But that person has two mothers.
0 likes
So the woman who carries for 9 months and endures childbirth to bring forth life is what?
She is the biological mother.
The ‘sperm depositor’ is the biological father.
Those who raise you are Mom and Dad.
3 likes
Praxedes says:
November 18, 2012 at 1:39 pm
So the woman who carries for 9 months and endures childbirth to bring forth life is what?
She is the biological mother.
The ‘sperm depositor’ is the biological father.
(Denise) Having babies is one of the (relatively few) areas in which males and females are far from equal. Biological motherhood and biological fatherhood have little in common. The biological father may simply have enjoyed himself, perhaps at the expense and agony of the girl or woman, perhaps even against her will. By contrast, the birthmother carried for nine months and gave birth. A person exists because of an awesome sacrifice that can be made only by females.
Genetically the contributions are equal. However, the baby is likely to bond with the person who carries and bears and that is, by necessity, the female.
<<Those who raise you are Mom and Dad. >>
(Denise) Agreed.
0 likes
For those who call me “anti-adoption,” I want to again state that I believe adoption is inevitable. We will never have a time in which mothers don’t die in childbirth or shortly thereafter. This necessitates adoption. Also, some abusive mothers must have their babies taken from them. Finally, there will also be girls and women who give birth and, even when facts are presented to them realistically, believe the benefits of placing for adoption outweigh the drawbacks.
0 likes
Susie says:
November 16, 2012 at 4:56 pm
Actually the women who make an adoption plan for their child know the true meaning of sacrificial love. They are my heroes.
(Denise) What do you think of surrogate mothers?
0 likes
If I had to choose between being raised by an impoverished single mother and being adopted by Sir Elton John and his husband, I’d probably pick the rich married couple.
0 likes
Covering this story BEFORE the election would have been significant, Jill. It isn’t now.
His opponent was/is pro life also. To my knowledge, no major pro life national group pulled their support for him and supported the pro life democrat instead. A pretty good example of what is wrong at the top..
0 likes
@ Nicole: If adoption is the “ultimate act of parental love,” why don’t we encourage everyone to experience this?
When women have babies, they will leave the hospital with a baby that has been randomly assigned to them. No one will be harmed by the lack of a biological relationship since that is of no importance. Everyone will place babies for adoption so everyone can reap the benefits.
0 likes
There are circumstances under which I believe placing for adoption should be MANDATORY. For example, I wrote of a warped creature who had a compulsion to deliberately get pregnant so she could kill the babies once born. I would favor whisking a baby away from her and placing for adoption.
I would also be in favor of the adoptive parents being fully informed of the wound that a baby has when separated from the woman who carried and bore the baby so they could work to compensate for that harm. The adoptive mother who wrote “Primal Wound” believes that adoptive parents can try to heal the wounds that adopted children inevitably suffer.
1 likes