Church ignores little girl hit by truck
I’m attending a two-day summit in Columbus, Ohio, involving leaders of pro-life activist groups, spearheaded by Mark Harrington of Created Equal, an organization of which I’m a board member. I’ll discuss more on that in another post.
But Don Cooper of World Life Organization (another group I’m on the board of), made a stirring point I’d like to pass along to you to get the conversation started as to the state of the pro-life movement as we approach the 40 year mark of legalized abortion in the U.S.
Don showed a video you may have seen, of several passersby ignoring for several minutes a toddler who was struck by not one but two trucks on a street in China last October. A total of 18 people ignored the crushed child until a street scavenger finally pulled her off the street. She went on to die….
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGwqZWHUZ0w[/youtube]
Don pointed out this is exactly what is going on in America in front of our churches. Babies are being killed all around them in much the same way as this little 2-yr-old, and the churches are walking around those babies.
And it’s worse, because the Church should be more motivated than even the godless Chinese to save these children.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Don asked, should we really expect anything different from people like Barack Obama and liberals when our own people are ignoring or enabling abortion?
Who is “our own people”? Barack Obama professes to be a Christian. Do Christians ignore or enable abortion? Yes. In large numbers apparently. Does “the Church” ignore abortion? My church doesn’t.
I think the point of this post is that “to whom much is given, much is expected in return”. Whether that gift is living in a free society, the gift of faith, or knowledge.
The point is that we have dehumanized life from the pre born to the born. We cannot deny that. Also, no one wants to get involved anymore. In China where girls are routinely aborted, why is this a surprise.
Our churches are so guilty. They should be speaking the pro life message from the pulpit often and they do not. I am a pro life speaker and unfortunately churches are much toughest customers. They don’t want to offend anyone or make anyone mad. The pastors are afraid for their jobs. It breaks my heart and makes me angry. Sometimes they say to me that they know they have post abortive women in their congregation and they don’t want to hurt them. I always tell them that I know those women because they come and confide in me. What he is doing is denying them the healing since they feel they have committed the unpardonable sin because the pastor won’t even address it from the pulpit.
Often people are in church and that church has changed their stand on abortion but the people in the pew are unaware of it. When they become aware of it, they are so tied into the congregation through relationships they won’t leave or take a stand.
The pastors don’t want to walk away from their seniority in the congregation and pensions to address it. I saw this happen first hand.
Yes, we are guilty….
I am involved with 40 Days for Life, a ministry of peaceful, prayerful witness outside Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers – and for five years have been disappointed in the tepid response by our local churches.
After reading an article in “The American Feminist” I guess I can understand why they are so standoffish. From the article (reprinted from SisterLife (1990)):
“Just before I was 13 years old, I was sexually abused by an older brother and by a college-age friend of the family. … About 3 or 4 months after the abuse began, I was late for a period. … I turned to my Sunday school teacher for help. When I told her I thought I might be pregnant (at 12 years old) she didn’t even blink. She gave me a hug and said I should go to Planned Parenthood for a ‘rabbit test’, that I should get one of my older brothers to take me and not tell my parents. She never asked who the male partner was, or why I was sexually active at my age. So my older brother took me to Planned Parenthood. …”
Although it is not ecclesiastically correct for most churches to support abortion rights, silence and/or covert guidance to women considering abortion puts them in the same camp as NARAL and Planned Parenthood – members of a fallen human race.
“the godless Chinese”
What the heck is this?!
Jill,
American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor Francis Schaeffer once stated:
“In front of every abortion clinic there needs to be a sign that reads, Here by permission of the Church.”
However outrageous this may sound, Schaeffer’s statement does accurately depict the perception of plausible deniability. Especially regarding the church views related to this murderous act. I recently posted this Letter of Appreciation from SATAN here. http://www.foundationlife.net/2012/letter-of-appreciation/
““the godless Chinese”
What the heck is this?!”
Yeah it doesn’t seem to be very fair to the Christians in China, who are under a lot of persecution as well.
I don’t think that “the church” is responsible for abortion. America is responsible for abortion, we let it be legalized, we let it continue to be legal. All of us, whatever religion we are, are responsible for that.
“I don’t think that “the church” is responsible for abortion.” But we are Jack. In terms of the civil law, we are not. But you would do well to ponder the image Jill included at the top. It depicts the parable of the good Samaritan. Whose job is it to be their brother’s keeper? All who proclaim to be of the religion where loving your neighbor as yourself is the paramount command violate that at some points in there life, but especially in America where the Church is present in every place, to miss this, the most gross violation of human rights in all of history and do nothing but continue on with our business is to make us guilty as well if we do not attempt to stop it. The Chinese people are officially Godless, though indeed many individuals there struggle against their statolatry. I happened to watch It’s a Girl last night, a documentary on sex-selection abortions, and how the Chinese treat their own people is a sobering reality of what happens when “endowed by their creator” turns into “endowed by Karl Marx’s flunkies.”
Yes, you guys are guilty under your religion, that’s totally correct according to your beliefs and I respect that. I just meant that it doesn’t mean that non-Christians like me are exempt from responsiblity, that is all I meant.
“The Chinese people are officially Godless, though indeed many individuals there struggle against their statolatry.”
I still don’t think it’s fair to take a government suppression of religion and accuse the Chinese people of being “Godless” (not that not believing in God is a terrible thing in itself, but government suppression is a terrible thing).
The central point of this post is spot on. Children are dying in our midst and the Christian response is not enough. I’m personally grateful, as a Catholic, that the Church in her teachings has been consistent about valuing human life. And yet I’m painfully aware that lots of individual Catholics acting sinfully and going against these teachings have done great harm, from politicians to clinic workers to post-abortive moms and dads, to the average Catholic not stepping up to end the atrocity.
Posts like this make me face the indifference around me and within me, and want to do more. I think that’s the intent. I find the “Godless Chinese” statement problematic, but I get the overall point.
“In front of every abortion clinic there needs to be a sign that reads, Here by permission of the Church.” – really, isn’t that a little vainglorious? I don’t see how any clinic requires the permission of any church, in any capacity, to conduct its business.
“In terms of the civil law, we are not.” – nor in any other capacity. That’s tantamount to the religious pressures applied to the citizens of countries which aren’t specifically labelled as theocracies but in truth are. It implies religious privilege.
Maybe the “Godless Chinese” was a (clumsy) way of referring to the reality of the millions upon millions of human beings that have been murdered in the last 100+ years under statist aetheistic regimes. Considering this, it’s reasonable for people to expect better safety levels in societies with Christian majorities than in societies where atheism is imposed.
Does that mean that atheists are better or worse
individuals than Christians? No. It just means that the trackrecord for valuing human life under atheistic authority is far more dismal than it is under Christian authority.
Christians don’t need to get uppity about that, and atheists don’t need to be defensive. Thanks be to God, we live in a free country (mostly- the unborn are a sad exception). Neither one religion nor the absence of religion nor state-defined religion is demanded of us, as in the case of China.
…Although the state forcing Catholics to go against their faith, in the HHS contraceptive mandate, is a sure encroachment.
It’s not atheism that’s the fault there. It’s the government suppression of religion and freedom in general. You are going to have terrible things happen when that happens, no matter what school of thought is privileged and which is persecuted. See for example, what happened to Catholics/Protestants in England in prior years when one was privileged over the other, or see how Islamic countries treat Christians now. It’s the restriction and oppression that’s the problem, not what’s being privileged. That’s just my opinion and could be completely wrong.
totally agreed that oppression and restriction is a problem, maybe the main problem.
And yet, the numbers of murdered human beings in the name of atheism are much much higher than the number of human beings murdered
under other belief systems. So if murders under Catholic or Bhuddist leaders reflect negatively on those religions, then murders under atheistic
leaders also reflects negatively on that belief system in general.
Back to abortion- the number of murdered human beings due to abortion is larger than all the other murders of this century put together. So looking at the belief systems which allow more or less abortion to flourish is worthwhile.
“the numbers of murdered human beings in the name of atheism…..then murders under atheistic leaders also reflects negatively on that belief system in general” – that is a fundamentally false claim with no basis in fact whatsoever. It is a favorite strawman of those trying to duck the fact that there have been significant wars and deaths in the name of various faiths at times throughout history.
“So looking at the belief systems which allow more or less abortion to flourish is worthwhile” – that would be pretty much all of them to some extent or other.
Reality,
Permission meaning we as believers have ALLOWED abortion to continue. Churches are SILENT on the issue of abortion and if the pews emptied tomorrow and we all stood in front of every abortion mill in the country? It would be over.
Jill,
American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor Francis Schaeffer once stated:
“In front of every abortion clinic there needs to be a sign that reads, Here by permission of the Church.”
And yes those that claim there is no God or worship idols are godless.
Anyone watch the video and make the connection to abortion??
Eh, it’s too simplistic to blame “Christians” or “the Church.”
The problem is that too many people who like to call themselves Christians don’t really believe in the substance of the faith. You excommunicate them, or otherwise chase them out of your church, and they’ll just start another. Had the Roman Catholic Church been more militant over the past few decades, the only result would have been a huge increase in the Old Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, and the like.
Fortunately, this is starting to change – “Christian” has lost the social cachet it had for most of American history. And people who don’t take the Christian faith seriously now usually choose to identify as non-religious, spiritual, or agnostic rather than Christian. If the trend continues to accelerate, self-identified Christians will be a minority in America within the foreseeable future. Which, of course, is really what we have been all along.
“Permission meaning we as believers have ALLOWED abortion to continue.” – its not up to believers to allow it or not. It is up to society as a whole.
“Churches are SILENT on the issue of abortion” – not from what I see here.
“and if the pews emptied tomorrow and we all stood in front of every abortion mill in the country?” – well thats obviously not going to happen.
” It would be over.” – well not exactly, no.
Then why in the world would you ask?
You obviously have it alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll figured out Reality.
Other believers here know exactly what I mean. :)
I wouldn’t Carla. But you keep trying to tell us anyway. ;-)
I feel so badly for that poor girl, dying and being ignored – treated like roadkill that no one wants to look at. LL
“I feel so badly for that poor girl, dying and being ignored – treated like roadkill that no one wants to look at. LL”
I agree, this story is sad and scary.
No just you Reality.
There is no US.
The first time this story came out I refused to watch it.
Now that I have I wish I hadn’t.
I felt sick after watching her suffer in the street with people walking by.
I wanted to SCREAM at them!
Any proaborts want to comment on the little girl or did you find some punctuation and spelling errors to discuss??
Reality, “that is a fundamentally false claim with no basis in fact whatsoever” is itself false. Do your own research on the “gulag archipelago” and “the great leap forward.” Surely someone with “reality” as their moniker would not want to utterly deny the history of the most efficiently and needlessly barbaric century in human history. Relegating the deaths of tens upon tens of millions of human beings to simply a “strawman argument” is offensive in the highest degree, but then again, you do fervently celebrate tearing apart defenseless infants limb from limb for your own material satisfaction and deny them as even human beings. None of that has to be that way, you know?
I could not watch the whole thing.
I want to get my hands around the throat of the person driving the van and drag them out and rub their face in the blood and urine and feces that of that little girl.
Then I want to tie her limp lifeless corpse around their neck and force them to wear until it has completely decomposed.
They say that therapy is sometimes successful with dogs.
Perhaps it might be effective with stupid humans.
I love atheists. My heart aches to see them in Heaven with me, although they won’t accept, understand, or appreciate that. I pray that this blog helps them on that journey, though.
But the bottom line is an atheist can not make the case that a human is anything more special than an armadillo. There is no soul that sets humans apart. We evolved from apes. We are not made in the image of God. So the little girl we see run over in the video is nothing more than road kill. I know that’s harsh, and it hurts me to type that, because I love that little girl and ache for her parents. But that has to be the ultimate atheist view.
Christians on the other hand can easily understand and explain why our laws against the murder of innocent (mostly postborn) humans are so much harsher than our laws for killing cats. It is because humans are unique, have souls, and are made in the image of God.
Yes, they are the “godless Chinese.” The government is Communist and atheist. Yes, thank God, there is a vibrant Christian church in China, but it is entirely underground and persecuted. Christianity is certainly not mainstream, as it is in America.
Yes, abortion is legal in America because Christians allow it to be legal. We could rise up and shut abortion down by protests, votes, speaking against it from the pulpit and stopping it from happening among our very own, by planting PRCs in urban areas, by taking a stronger stand against illicit sex and explain why sex within God’s confines is so much healthier all the way around.
Yes, that haunting video (which I’d never viewed before but really upsets me) is what is happening smack dab in front of our churches over 3,000 times every day.
This is what happens in America every day with abortion. It has a lot of blood on its’ hands.
Jill Stanek says: But the bottom line is an atheist can not make the case that a human is anything more special than an armadillo.
As a Christian, I of course understand that God set humans apart from the rest of Creation. But I disagree with your statement above, Jill. It doesn’t take belief in God to look around the world and see that humans are something different, something more, than armadillos and other animals. An atheist can observe what humans are, what they can do, what they can feel and think, and value that, even if they don’t believe in an immortal soul. That’s the beauty of God’s Creation; he has made visible His hand, even if we don’t identify Him as the source of it or the reason behind it, we recognize in our hearts that we are special.
Lrning: I meant that an atheist can not make a rational case for the specialness of humans based on facts. Sure, we all observe there is something intrinsically different about humans than all other creatures, but an atheist can not logically identify it. Animals have feelings. Animals emote. Animals think. Animals can be trained to use computers, to dress, to even communicate via sign language. In many ways animals are superior to humans in their own environments. Logically speaking, there is nothing different about humans. They are just more highly developed animals, and only in certain ways. Humans don’t have sonar capabilities, for instance, like bats do.
I believe an atheist can make a rational case for the specialness of humans without belief in God. They will just attribute our specialness to something other than God. My point is that humans are special, and that fact can be recognized by everyone, including those that don’t attribute that specialness to God. They could perhaps make the case that our highly developed brains are what make us special.
Animals can be trained (by humans) to use computers (made by humans), to dress (in clothes made by humans), to even communicate via sign language (developed by humans). Logically speaking, what is different about humans is we are not limited to our “own environment”. We penetrate all environments. The earth, the sky, the depths of the ocean, and even space. What other creature has done the same? I think an atheist could use the facts of what man has accomplished to make the case that humans are special. IMO, it’s actually a beautiful God-given grace that everyone can recognize Him in us, even before they know/accept Him.
I couldn’t watch the video. The description about the video was enough to horrify me.
We, the Church, are responsible and will be held accountable for NOT doing more to protect the unborn … and ALL children. See Matthew 25:31-46: Jesus will judge US (meaning those with faith in Christ) for what we did and did not do. Those who do NOT believe will NOT be held to the same standard.
45 And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me.
46 Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.
I also agree that a lot of churches are woefully negligent proclaiming pro-life messages from the pulpit; an important point, however, is that few churches have recovery/healing ministries for those IN the church who have sinned in this manner. Until we reach out to our brothers and sisters in Christ who have tragically made this mistake, and offer love, acceptance and guide them to Scriptural restoration and healing, we will be hard pressed to convince those outside the church that this is a tragic mistake, with consequences not only to the unborn but the adults who choose abortion and must live with the consequences.
Scott Klusendorf makes a powerful statement in a lecture he gave to a high school audience, discussing how there HAS to be the extension of forgiveness to those in the Church who have participated in abortion, around the 2:20 mark:
http://vimeo.com/25061075
Amen Christy S!!
As a post abortive mom again I say AMEN!
Until we reach out to our brothers and sisters in Christ who have tragically made this mistake, and offer love, acceptance and guide them to Scriptural restoration and healing, we will be hard pressed to convince those outside the church that this is a tragic mistake, with consequences not only to the unborn but the adults who choose abortion and must live with the consequences.
I agree with this Lrning: “IMO, it’s actually a beautiful God-given grace that everyone can recognize Him in us, even before they know/accept Him.”
And it’s not just your opinion. Romans 1… :)
Susie Allen: That’s what happened to my family. We ended up having to leave our church after learning their position on abortion. We were there 11 years. It was so hard and took a very long time before we accepted we had to leave. I am so happy that my new church is so pro-life. When we were first looking for a new church, we asked a pastor what the stance on abortion is for the denomination. It was such a relief when he told us that they believed it was wrong, without even trying to guess what the answer we wanted to hear was.
Thank you Lrning.
I value humans more than animals. It’s just rational self-interest even if you just ignore emotional connections that humans have to each other, among other things.
I don’t think of a dead little girl as roadkill. I mean, come on now. That’s not a fair assessment of secularist views.
It’s probably true that many atheists believe humans are mere animals – and are really only partial to THEIR animals (their family or pets). But it’s also true that many believe people are more important because they just grew up with that cultural belief, and don’t have reasons to back it up.
Wouldn’t it be praiseworthy (yes, even MIRACULOUS) for the secular to recognize the exceptional worth of humanity, without any real beliefs about why we’re here or where we should go?
Oh, hi Jack. ;)
It’s not miraculous to value humanity… I value all living things, I don’t eat animals, I hate animal testing, etc. But I am a human and belong to the human community, and have a vested interest and emotional connection to my fellow humans. It’s not that difficult to understand, and it’s very unfair to act like secularists have no rational reason to value humans.
It’s looking more and more miraculous for anybody to agree with us, Jack. Just look around at this world.
Hopefully we can all bring our different skill sets and abilities and work as a team.
That I do agree with, that we should all work together. We should try to portray each other fairly though, that’s one thing that kind of shakes the movement up.
I think it’s totally inaccurate to claim that secularists don’t believe humans are special! There are plenty of people who believe that humans are part of something bigger, or are more advanced, or whatever.
Christians believe that God made humans special, but secularists (many of them – the sane ones), also realize this, I think.
Besides, honestly, the way some Christians act, I doubt they actually believe humans are special. Oh, they might claim to, but many of them sure as heck don’t act like it.
“that is a fundamentally false claim with no basis in fact whatsoever” is itself false.” – not so Chris.
“Do your own research on the “gulag archipelago” and “the great leap forward.” Surely someone with “reality” as their moniker would not want to utterly deny the history of the most efficiently and needlessly barbaric century in human history.” – where did I say that such events did not occur? Show me.
“Relegating the deaths of tens upon tens of millions of human beings to simply a “strawman argument” is offensive in the highest degree” – what is offensive is your failure to recognise that the strawman argument I spoke of refers to the claims that what took place was done in the name of atheism, not the events themselves.
Address the argument being made.
“We evolved from apes.” – not so. Thats a creationist potshot.
“We are not made in the image of God.” – agreed.
Biology, psychology and a number of other disciplines show us why humans are indeed ‘special’.
Yeah, LibertyBelle, I agree. Though I do think that “Christians” who don’t value their fellow human beings have basically pushed themselves out of being able to rationally claim the label “Christian”. From reading the New Testament, I see no way to be able to claim that you follow Christ but don’t value his children. It’s just contradictory. Jesus was a cool dude if he existed, and he valued everyone. He would have loved me as much as all of you, I am sure.
I know that recently I’ve been on this “stop portraying secularists this way” kick, but it’s important. As pro-lifers we want to appeal to all humans, not just Christians. Why would someone who didn’t already understand the importance of protecting the preborn want to belong to a movement that appears to give them no respect? I don’t think that most of you do it on purpose, and I don’t think you mean harm, but it is harmful to portray people like atheists/secularists get spoken of. If it can bother me, and make me question my importance to the movement when I already have my heart in it, I can’t imagine how many secularists it may turn away before they have a chance to consider our pro-life arguments.
” “We evolved from apes.” – not so. Thats a creationist potshot.”
Oh yeah, I forgot this one. We evolved from a common ancestor with apes, we are not evolved from them. Apes and humans are distinct species that took different evolutionary paths from each other.
This agnostic (who doesn’t believe humans are made in the image of God) is still trying to wrap her head around how these people could have acted this way. I’m not looking to excuse them, just understand. I wonder how much the lawsuits against Good Samaritans have to do with it, and hope that instituting rewards brings results. Not that it should be necessary to offer rewards, in any case.
This also makes me confront some of my biases in my mostly pro-life position. The only pro-life argument that is perfect and not flawed to me is that abortion is murder. It takes away an innocent person’s right to choose whether to live.
But I also realize that much of my emotional reaction is rooted in pain. Intellectually, I realize that a zygote is just as worthy of life as a 20-week fetus, but emotionally I find I don’t really care. (That probably also has something to do with how many embryos don’t implant naturally.) The idea of someone torturing an animal upsets me more, actually. And watching this video was excruciating. I understand being part of the human community, but there are times I really struggle to understand humans.
I look around nature and see lots of food chains, and I think we’re special partly because we’re near the top and can often avoid being prey because we can create tools and medicines with a sophistication other animals lack. (Good thing about those opposable thumbs.)
But you definitely don’t need to believe in a higher power to recognize and try to live by the Golden Rule.
Yep, you about nailed it. ;) He does exist, and He does love you. Very much. Okay, done now. I just wanted to let you know…. :)
No, I totally understand what you’re saying. I get a little peeved at how many pro-life groups act like being pro-life is exclusively Catholic. I totally get that they have done *way* more than most other belief systems anywhere, BUT, not everyone agrees with them. It can be very difficult to stay on message and speak the truth while not offending anyone, but it’s really necessary.
And when we all do work together, it can be so beautiful and we can impact so, so so many lives. Because isn’t that one thing we can all agree on? That life is precious and innocent babies don’t need to be killed? Our director at the pregnancy center where I used to work used to laugh about our board of directors. “It sounds like a joke: A Catholic, a Baptist, and a Presbyterian were on a Directors Board …”
“No, I totally understand what you’re saying. I get a little peeved at how many pro-life groups act like being pro-life is exclusively Catholic. I totally get that they have done *way* more than most other belief systems anywhere, BUT, not everyone agrees with them. It can be very difficult to stay on message and speak the truth while not offending anyone, but it’s really necessary.”
Yeah, that’s the thing. I give the Catholic Church major props for their consistent pro-life ethic (I also very much respect their death penalty views). I actually think that the Catholic Church has done a better job than many Protestant denominations have in general at being consistently pro-life and working in the movement. But that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to denigrate people of other denominations or of no religion at all in the pro-life movement. There is room for all of us, and we have to give each other’s views respect whether we agree or not.
Exactly. Re: the contraception debate. Not at all necessary to being pro-life, highly offensive to those who aren’t Christians, whatever, and so I don’t think they should push it as much as they do.
But, again, major props to Catholics for all they’ve done for the pro-life movement. They put Protestants to shame, they really do.
I love working alongside my Catholic brothers and sisters, but I keep my mouth shut about the parts of Catholicism that strike me as weird or that I don’t agree with (or I try to). It would be nice if they could temper their zeal just a teeny bit as well. :)
But hi, other Catholics, I do love you. I think you’re wonderful! :)
“But I also realize that much of my emotional reaction is rooted in pain. Intellectually, I realize that a zygote is just as worthy of life as a 20-week fetus, but emotionally I find I don’t really care. (That probably also has something to do with how many embryos don’t implant naturally.) The idea of someone torturing an animal upsets me more, actually. And watching this video was excruciating. I understand being part of the human community, but there are times I really struggle to understand humans.”
See, I have had the same thoughts at times. Mostly when I was really really depressed and I used to think maybe it would have been better if my mom had gone through with an early abortion, rather than birthing me so I could be tormented like I was as a child. Yes, and animal torture gives me more of an emotional reaction than a very early human abortion. But I eventually realized it’s not really about my emotions, it’s about what’s logical and fair for humanity. We all need to have our lives legally protected, with no arbitrary lines drawn based on sentience or ability to feel pain, because at one time every single one of us was that non-sentient embryo.
“Why would someone who didn’t already understand the importance of protecting the preborn want to belong to a movement that appears to give them no respect? I don’t think that most of you do it on purpose, and I don’t think you mean harm, but it is harmful to portray people like atheists/secularists get spoken of. If it can bother me, and make me question my importance to the movement when I already have my heart in it, I can’t imagine how many secularists it may turn away before they have a chance to consider our pro-life arguments.”
So, so true! I’m also not crazy about people lumping in other issues with the pro-life cause, such as same-sex marriage. I’m not questioning your right to believe things I don’t agree with (or saying you’re a bad person for doing so), and I also have no basis to tell anyone what to talk about.
I just want to say that both issues can sometimes make me pretty uncomfortable to hang out with people in the community. and I can’t be the only one. Surely abortion is an important enough issue in its own right that you don’t need to drag other things into the same arena or put down secularists (which, obviously, only some people do, whether it’s intentional or not).
” I just want to say that both issues can sometimes make me pretty uncomfortable to hang out with people in the community. and I can’t be the only one. Surely abortion is an important enough issue in its own right that you don’t need to drag other things into the same arena or put down secularists (which, obviously, only some people do, whether it’s intentional or not).”
Hundred percent agree. I feel the same way about people who are anti-contraception, it just seems prudent to me to focus on abortion first, then people can work on the other issues that are important to them. Or at the very least, work on the issues separate from the pro-life movement rather than alienating people from the very important work we are doing to save babies.
“But, again, major props to Catholics for all they’ve done for the pro-life movement. They put Protestants to shame, they really do.”
Most secularists too. I especially admire how much charity work the Catholic Church does — and also happen to love their art :)
“But I eventually realized it’s not really about my emotions, it’s about what’s logical and fair for humanity.”
That is the position I support, though you’ve done a much better job of explaining it in one sentence than I have been with flailing around. The emotional part is a side issue (and I don’t know that I’ll ever feel differently on that), but the bottom line is fairness.
“I especially admire how much charity work the Catholic Church does — and also happen to love their art”
Yeah, the charity thing is another thing I really admire. Catholic Charities has one of the highest rates of money donated actually going to charity work rather than overhead. Actually, religious groups in general have a pretty good track record for charity. Most of the soup kitchens and homeless shelters in my area are run by churches.
” That is the position I support, though you’ve done a much better job of explaining it in one sentence than I have been with flailing around. The emotional part is a side issue (and I don’t know that I’ll ever feel differently on that), but the bottom line is fairness.”
Exactly. I don’t think I can make myself have a more visceral reaction to a four week abortion than a puppy being beaten. I can’t force myself to feel a certain way. I can look at the situation rationally though and realize that four week old embryo deserves as much protection as a newborn.
You should post more often Roxy, I need more pro-life agnostics around here. :)
Jill, just wanted to say. I wasn’t trying to accuse you of not caring about or deliberately alienating atheists/secularists or anything like that with my comments. I reread my comments and realize they could be taken as me being judgmental towards you and that’s not what I was trying to do. I simply needed to point out that it’s perfectly rational to value humanity over other life forms (though I do think it’s sad that humans don’t value animal life more, but it’s not particularly important when it comes to the anti-abortion movement). I don’t think it’s fair to portray Christians unfairly, and I do genuinely work towards having respect towards those of you with religious views and stating your positions correctly, though I am human and I sometimes fail at that. I would simply like Christians to sit back and think about how your words might come across to those non-religious people already on your side, and those who are pro-choice who might be more open to the pro-life movement if they didn’t feel like they are being respected or treated fairly by religious pro-lifers. It’s been on my mind lately with some stuff that’s been going on, so I just had to say my piece. Again. Lol.
I do really respect you Jill, and I love what you do for the pro-life movement.
Thanks, Jack! The whole movement needs more pro-life agnostics!
And for Lrning and LibertyBelle and all other Christians who do a great job at portraying atheists/agnostics positively, I would like to thank you very much. I do appreciate it, I was never treated very well by so-called “Christians” for most of my life and it really helps to hear positive things from you all. Thank you very much.
It would be nice if they could temper their zeal just a teeny bit as well.
That’s an odd thing to say. Our zeal comes from the Lord! When you have Good News, you want to share it! Just like you couldn’t resist letting Jack know that Jesus loves him, even though he might not want to hear that. You might not see the Catholic teaching about contraception as good news, but I assure you it is.
“Just like you couldn’t resist letting Jack know that Jesus loves him, even though he might not want to hear that”
Lol I don’t mind people telling me that they think Jesus loves me. What I don’t like to hear is that I am destined to go to hell or that I am a terrible unrepentant sinner. I already know that this is a belief of Christians, hearing it over and over doesn’t help me and doesn’t teach me anything.
You are not destined for hell, Jack. God wishes all to be saved and He is perfect in His mercy. When you tuck your children in bed tonight and you pause at the door of their room and you feel your heart fill with that all-consuming love for them, even if they’ve been naughty that day…that’s what God feels when he looks at you. That’s what He feels for all of us. Always.
I don’t recall anyone posting on this blog about pro-life atheists going to hell or trying to marginalize them.
Conversely, Christians are being marginalized in the public square. One example: I was told by one passerby that he found my sign “offensive” and another passerby chided me for trying to intimidate people with it. The sign said “Planned Parenthood wants your kids to break 5 of the 10 Commandents“. Now unless spelling errors intimidate or offend, I surmised that they didn’t like my message being expressed publicly and wanted to make sure I knew I was not welcomed there.
Let’s not be too thin-skinned here.
“I don’t recall anyone posting on this blog about pro-life atheists going to hell or trying to marginalize them. ”
Well, you might have missed it but it happens. More likely than the “you are going to hell” stuff is people lumping atheists/agnostics into a big pro-abort pile, like we are all the same. Another common one is that we don’t have real morals or are incapable of having a good moral code.
” Conversely, Christians are being marginalized in the public square. One example: I was told by one passerby that he found my sign “offensive” and another passerby chided me for trying to intimidate people with it. The sign said “Planned Parenthood wants your kids to break 5 of the 10 Commandents“. Now unless spelling errors intimidate or offend, I surmised that they didn’t like my message being expressed publicly and wanted to make sure I knew I was not welcomed there.
Let’s not be too thin-skinned here. ”
Which is not cool. Par for the course for how people treat pro-lifers in general, religious or not, but it’s not cool. Just because some Christians might face some marginalization in the public square doesn’t mean that atheists/secularists don’t. It’s hard to see what another group faces when you aren’t a part of that group and it’s not directed at you. I don’t normally see Christians being treated badly, and you apparently don’t see how secularists are treated. That’s human nature, we all have our blind spots. But we all should be trying to be sensitive to how we treat others and how our words affect them. It’s not thin skinned for me to disagree with Jill saying that I cannot rationally value humans more than animals. It’s not thin skinned for you to object to someone telling you it’s offensive to have a sign with something pertaining to your religion.
If I am extremely tired of anything, honestly, it’s that people brushing off complaints of secularists on how we are treated by the pro-life movement in general as “thin skinned” or not bad enough, or that we should just put up with alienation. I wouldn’t expect Christians to take the stuff I face lying down, nor should you expect me to be silent about it anymore.
There’s been a whole lot of generalizing going on here. Let’s just say there’s good and bad in everyone. It’s all very interesting and we all secretly wish for more agreement with our thoughts.
But all this should fade beside our desire for everyone to have the right to join in on the conversation once they’ve been conceived.
” But all this should fade beside our desire for everyone to have the right to join in on the conversation once they’ve been conceived.”
But that’s my point Hans, that’s why I object to the portrayal of secularists. I think it hurts our movement and drives people away that otherwise might be enticed by our pro-life arguments. I don’t complain about it just because it hurts my wittle feewings, lol. I think it harms the movement. And when the movement is harmed, we end up with more dead babies.
I had a post written up earlier, but then my computer decided to annoy me and not operate properly so it didn’t get posted.
Lrning beat me to the answering regarding the comment about Catholics losing/toning down some of their zeal. I would like, if I may, to add a few of my own thoughts on it:
It’s true there is a time and place to everything (Ecclesasties–yeah I know that’s spelled wrong, but I don’t have the correct spelling right in front of me right now, so please bear with me).
But if Catholics–or any Christian really–loses their zeal that’s a very sad thing. We don’t want to lose zeal–it’s a gift of the Holy Spirit. But yes, some people are recieptive to that zeal and others are not and God meets people where they are.
As to what Jack, Roxy and the other pro-lifers were saying about us pro-lifers working together, I agree. Even if we don’t agree on contraceptives or religion, we must be willing to find our common ground so we can work towards what is good for humanity and abortion is not. The divisions are there, yes, but we can’t let them hurt the pro-life movement. We can deal with the divisions as needed, but we can also learn to work together THROUGH those divisions for a common goal.
Does anyone else ever notice that those that are proabortion NEVER comment with disgust or outrage or sorrow over posts like this?
Women that die in abortions. Horrific tales of abortionist quacks that maim and kill. Full term babies tossed in the trash or left to die alone.
And…….nothing from proaborts. Nothing. Does it show a chink in your armor when you say, “That is wrong??”
Is it because when you support abortion you support it ALL?
Lrning and MIT,
Ach. Touche, touche. I don’t want people necessarily to turn down their zeal, but perhaps learn to phrase it in better ways? At least about issues that are not essential to stopping the slaughter of babies.
I’m so glad that so many Christians and Catholics have zeal for the Lord, that’s great. But my point is that when you couch in certain words, when you conflate your positions on BC and homosexual marriage, you’re hurting your ability to work together with secularists to end abortion. And frankly, we need them. We need them to help stop abortion. I say, if anyone out there is willing to fight by my side to stop abortion, I’ll welcome them, even if we disagree on politics, religion, eating choices, whatever. Abortion needs to end.
So by no means don’t be passionate. Please, keep doing it! But realize that if you over-harp on certain things… it will end up hindering your over-all goal to end abortion. There’s a time and a place for the contraception debate, and the homosexual marriage debate.
It’s not even the passion Catholics show for these issues that’s the problem – it’s the implication that you have to agree with them on x, y, and z in order to be pro-life. And, though I’m sure their intentions are pure, that is honestly how it comes across sometimes.
Even as a protestant, it’s so so frustrating to practically be accused of not being totally pro-life if I don’t believe contraception use is inherently evil. It gets old to have my pro-life creds questioned because my beliefs don’t 100% line up with the Roman Catholic Church – of which I’m not even a member. :(
So that’s all that I”m trying to say. I promise I’m not trying to dampen your passion and zeal and telling you to keep your trap shut. :) All I’m asking is that maybe Catholics and Christians alike be more careful in what “other” beliefs a person has to have in order to be pro-life.
Yeah, Carla, what is with that???
If abortion is such a wonderful choice, it wouldn’t be illogical to say, “Oh, that’s horrible that this happened?”
I don’t understand how you can just close your eyes to a toddler being run over by two trucks and being ignored. I mean… how cold do you have to be? It just makes me want to weep.
Totally agree Libertybelle. No one gets to define “pro-life” for another. And, sadly, I’m sure I’ve been guilty of being less than charitable in sharing Catholic teachings many, many times; on this very blog no doubt.
I’d like to share a link for anyone interested in how to share the Good News without beating people over the head. I’m so grateful for the advice in this article, it has changed me in many ways: http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/judge-not
One quote from the article that I like and think Christian pro-lifers should remember:
“The call of the Gospels is to love and to love completely. Jesus showed us that this love was to give and give completely, that love is in the gift offered not the threat delivered.”
IMO, threatening that someone is going to hell or accusing them of being devil’s spawn or judging that they can’t be “pro-life” until they think/do x, y, or z is not loving.
Yay, we agree!! We’re still friends!!! :D I’m sure I’ve said some offensive things…. my mouth is very big, and has a magnet there that attracts the one in my foot…. ha.
As Rex in Toy Story says, “I don’t like confrontations!”
LibertyBelle–Those are divisive things in the pro-life movement whether Catholic or Protestant, to be sure. And like I said, they’d have to be dealt with as they came up. I’m of the opinion in spite of them we can find ways to work together. Do I wish everyone felt the same way as the Catholic Church on other issues that come up in the abortion conversations? Of course! I’m passionate about my beliefs and that’s important when being strong in the face of storms. However, nobody can MAKE a person see things their way. As the old saying goes: “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” No one, whether Protestant, Catholic, Pro-Life, Pro-choice, or whatever can MAKE a person believe their side. You can only do your best to defend your position and to find what is right, true, and truly just.
CARLA–You’re right….it’s been strangely silent. I don’t know what to make of it, honestly. It says a lot of how the culture of the world has gone. It’s truly sad.