I am proud to support non-traditional prolife groups… prolife atheists, prolife pagans, gay prolifers, etc. but I am sick and tired of some in those groups criticizing and mocking the mainstream. You want me to tolerate you, but then you mock me?
I don’t think so.
~ Former Planned Parenthood employee turned pro-life advocate Abby Johnson, via her Facebook page, December 1
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Speaking as the president of Secular Pro-Life, my philosophy is that criticism is good and necessary– if it’s constructive. Mocking is never constructive. I try to be an equal-opportunity critic and remain respectful; it’s really not that hard.
xalisae,
I kinda get her point on both things, though. I understand why she has a problem with the home demonstrations. I understand why people would think they’re effective. I haven’t made up my mind exactly HOW I feel about those things–because I can see both sides of the argument–I get why people do them and I get why people have a problem with them. So, I’m figuring out that part. (I don’t like being on the fence about things because all you end up doing is getting a sore behind from sitting on the fence, but at this point and time it’s something I’m still contemplating where I stand on that question).
I also get what she’s saying about other groups disparaging those who don’t think like them. I was told by some mothers on a mothers’ site I once belonged to (don’t anymore because I got tired of being on there) that I was NOT a good friend to homosexual friends of mine. I was berated and basically told my point of view was wrong and in so many words that I wasn’t a loving person. It hurt to be told that because I try very hard to be kind to others. I talked to a homosexual friend of mine who got VERY indignant. He sad, “I NEVER felt like you weren’t a good frieind to ME.” We understood that we had differences (he wasn’t big on Catholicism and I wasn’t big on his lifestyle choices, but we agreed to disagree and that the fact we were both human beings was what we’d support even if we couldn’t support each other’s views).
But, it’s hard to have my stance when I’m always told I HAVE to approve of homosexuals. That I HAVE to approve of bi-sexuals and transgenders. Why do I HAVE to when we all have Free Will to form our own consciences? I don’t tell them they’re going to Hell. Good grief, I have NO idea who IS and is NOT going to Hell–I leave that up to God. But it’s very, very disheartening to try and find some sort of dipolmatic footing when you’re always told that despite your BEST efforts to BE caring and BE diplomatic that’s NOT enough…that you have to do things THEIR way. It’s the very thing they complain about regarding some pro-lifers and Catholics / other Christians / Other religious. So if they don’t like my stance on things why do *I* have to like their stance? I try to treat people with kindness. I’m of the opinon that editing what you say (rather than just totally saying what you’re thinking at all times) goes a long way towards finding common ground.
As someone who has been on the Pro-Life side ever since I knew what abortion was (before I entered High School, which was many moons ago) I get where Abby is coming from. Sure, she has put up with it as long as some people have, but I understand her frustration.
For the record, I think pro-life atheists can bring a unique point of view to the pro-life argument. I welcome both Scientific and religious reasons for being pro-life. I think it’s necessary for pro-lifers to find a way to work TOGETHER.
I really don’t see why we can’t let her feel a bit frustrated once in a while. Maybe she’s getting a lot of flak on facebook, and got a bit fed up. She’s got a one-year-old and one on the way. Let her be human.
Well then, it’s nice to see you coming around to identifying with Abby.
:)
Um, it does come across as kind of whiny to me. But I suppose I can understand her being frustrated, etc. And maybe I’m not out there too much, but I don’t think “traditional” pro-lifers get that much flak from non-traditional ones that often. What is she being criticized for? Maybe they have a point? Her response doesn’t reflect well on mainstream pro-lifers. Seriously. Is she confusing non-traditional pro-lifers with anti-abortion gay/atheist/whatever groups?
Everyone should just chill out and focus on what matters – killing babies is bad and should be stopped. Now let’s all be friends. :D
You ever read some of her status’ on facebook?
Sure she gets flak.
Yeah, I admitted that maybe I don’t get out much on the interweb. I don’t “like” her on facebook, so I don’t really get her updates or read her page.
What does she get flak about? Not that it makes it right, I’m just curious.
“What does she get flak about? Not that it makes it right, I’m just curious.”
A lot of people go after her for her anti-contraception stance, from what I saw when I still had a Facebook. Sometimes they get mean. That’s Facebook for you, I deleted my account there because it’s ridiculous.
I don’t actually have an issue with Abby, I should have made that clear before. I have an issue with the fact that again non-traditional pro-lifers are accused of being a problem, when the way that a lot of traditional pro-lifers treat us never gets called out and usually gets agreed with by the vast majority. It’s annoying. Calling us hedonists, immoral, selfish, value-less, take about stripping rights from us, tell us we are ruining the country by not being able to believe in God, that’s all okay. But lord forbid some people get on a traditional pro-lifer about being anti-contraception. That’s just terrible.
She has a right to her own opinion but she usually writes about what every other prolife group is doing wrong.
“I deleted my account there because it’s ridiculous.”
Oh man, I didn’t realize that, Jack! I’m bummed because you were one of only a very few people that I disagree with on many issues but still allow to see my “controversial” statuses.
Lol Bobby I do miss you all on Facebook. I was just telling Carla I need to get a super secret one that my creepy pro-abort stalkers don’t know about and add you all so I can get my arguing in for the day. If I do I will make sure to add you back. :)
So a few of you find her to be “A snivelling, whiney American woman”, is that it?
“So a few of you find her to be “A snivelling, whiney American woman”, is that it”
What are you talking about?
Hi Jack. It’s what someone said on another thread in relation to a young lady who gained a profile similar to Abby’s, but on the ‘other side’. And I see a couple of people on this thread who are less than 100% impressed with Abby’s stance.
How are Fluke and Johnson being compared in your mind? You think if people think Fluke is entitled and whiny, they are hypocritical if they don’t think Abby is? The situations have nothing to do with each other!
That’s not quite the point Jack. I just found it interesting that a comment was made here that Abby was basically being whiny, while at the same time someone said the same thing of Sandra. The ladies are on different sides of the fence but the comments both came from the one side.
I’ll just concur with x and Jack and be on my way.
” I was just telling Carla I need to get a super secret one that my creepy pro-abort stalkers don’t know about and add you all so I can get my arguing in for the day. ”
I look forward to it, my friend.
I agree, Jack. It was offensive. And I am glad you are on “our side” and this site.
Bravo Jack!
Well, this thread sure has been cut down to size.
Yeah, as the Cowardly Lion said, “Unusual weather we’re having, ain’t it?”
Anyway, as to the topic of the quote I’m not sure exactly what mocking she has been experiencing but I think we can all agree that such things are not constructive. I hope that no more mocking happens in either direction.
Yes mocking anyone is bad. And I am sorry if I have ever inadvertently mocked someone’s faith. I would like it to be pointed out if it occurs so I can make amends.
“Yeah, as the Cowardly Lion said, “Unusual weather we’re having, ain’t it?””
:)
You can just blow my comments under moderation away if you like mods, no harm done. :-)
This whole thing is going to look so surreal to anyone who comes late to the party. They’re going to wonder what exactly we are talking about. Well, to any late comers that may be reading this I say that you may very well be better off having missed that conversation.
I think some of the people in the conversation quite regret being involved in it. I do. I am sorry everyone.
Well, I don’t. If I thought it was something I would regret, I wouldn’t have involved myself in the first place. Anything I said, I said because it needed to be said, because these are real problems happening in the movement (obviously-at this point, after this thread, it couldn’t possibly BE more obvious), and sweeping it under the rug isn’t going to make us stronger or more effective.
But, it couldn’t be any more clear that I am now being punished because I won’t tuck my tail between my legs and apologize for speaking my mind. I’d rather bugger off than apologize for sticking up for myself and others.
Soooooooo….buggering. Just pretend I was never here. It would appear at least one person who is a mod is trying to do so, and doing a rather effective job of it! :)
Um, interesting turn of events.
Wouldn’t it be funny if this thread got back up to its previous length just by talking about what was deleted?
Back to the original quote: I checked Abby’s facebook page and saw the quote. It’s actually kind of vague, isn’t it? Would it have been more useful if she had specified what made her say it?
I often use evolutionary arguments when talking to people because we were given our brains for good use. If you are pro-life because of a doctrine of faith but you can’t rationalize it in biological terms, it’s very difficult to convince pro-choice people that they should rethink their position.
That doesn’t even address whether or not pro-lifers should argue from the same position among themselves. But I believe very strongly that our diversity is our strength. We don’t all walk in lockstep, we don’t all agree on the MOST IMPORTANT reasons that abortion should end. This fact makes it a lie everytime a pro-choice advocate says that pro-lifers are just religious zealots. We need to be inclusive. But, since I don’t feel the sting of mockery from my secular pro-life aquaintences, I wonder again, what is Abby talking about, specifically??
But, if Abby has had any adjustment problems to becoming a visible pro-life figure, WE all share the responsibility. We all wanted to hear her story, to give her a voice, a platform to speak from, guest spots at pro-life events, etc. We didn’t recruit a professional spokesmodel. We got lucky and an abortion worker experienced a genuine conversion. She’s very human and she is one of the kind of people we want to convert.
Perhaps this thread can be summed up in saying we should make a better effort at considering others’ feelings. We are always quick to think ourselves to be an injured party. Maybe we shouldn’t deny others their right to have the same opinion about themselves.
Wow, it appears that I missed a lot yesterday…
Well anyway. Ninek summed up what I was attempting to say.
I don’t have a problem with Abby Johnson, or that she was saying ‘enough’ to getting flak, but, like all of us, she could probably think a little more before throwing up a status that’s so very vague and can come across as whiny and, to be honest, a little pouty. I love that the pro-life movement includes such a huge variety of people. It’s beautiful. But we all need to learn that having that many varied viewpoints will lead to very sharp differences in what we think on tactics, priorities, etc. But, that should never lead to us disrespecting each other (bringing up criticisms and responses to such critique should be respectful – it’s hard to learn, I know).
AND, the priority is should always be kept in front: Killing babies is bad.
And if her getting flak was coming out against bc, (thanks for the tip, Jack), well, I feel for the non-BC people, I do, because honestly, most people who are anti-bc can cast very hurtful characterizations. But that should never, ever be license to harass someone on FB.
So again to my original comment – let’s just acknowledge our differences, celebrate the fact that we all hate murdering babies, and learn from each other. Pass the peace pipe. :D
I think it is pretty sorry that all the people that were rightly defending themselves and each other were smacked down when in reality, there was only one person that needed to be quieted – I don’t blame X for her reaction
To be clear I’m not sorry for defending myself. I’m sorry for letting myself get drawn into that conversation in the first place. But I did have the right to disagree with how I was being portrayed.
She is always mocking, attacking, complaining about others in the movement but then demands no one dare say anything less to her than praise. I steer clear, but inevitably end up seeing barbs of her everywhere. I finally told her off, but she never really goes away. Expect emails and messages.
For the record, people tend to get flak when the constantly give flak. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Hence my threshold for antagonists always pretending to be victims has been exceeded here.
Wow, I have no idea what’s going on….on to a different post :-)