Four reasons why media isn’t covering Gosnell mass murder trial
UPDATE 4/16, 9:50a: The Atlantic has posted 14 possible reasons for the media blackout.
UPDATE 4/14, 5:10p: The Gospel Coalition has posted eight reasons for the media blackout, which are good.
4/11, 4:34p: Living in Chicago, I’ve observed press coverage up close on three of the most notorious mass murderers ever apprehended: Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and Richard Speck.
Speck tortured, raped, and murdered eight student nurses in Chicago in 1966. Dahmer murdered 17 boys and men in the Milwaukee/Chicago area between 1978-1991, keeping and eating some of their body parts. Gacy raped and murdered at least 33 boys and men between 1972-1978, burying many in the crawl space of his Chicago suburban home.
In each case the press tripped over themselves to recount every morbid detail, anxious to feed the public’s fascination with the macabre (click to enlarge)…
Flash forward to January 2011 when Dr. Kermit Gosnell was arrested in Philadelphia on charges he murdered seven newborns and a woman.
In Gosnell’s clinic police found severed baby feet of various sizes kept in see-through containers and bodies of babies in a freezer and in the basement. The upper spinal cords of some of the babies had been severed. These are all photos from the grand jury report. Click to enlarge…
Although Gosnell was charged with eight counts of murder, witnesses have testified he murdered over 100 babies over three decades. If true, this would rank Gosnell as one of the top five known serial killers worldwide of the 20th and 21st Centuries by victim count.
But if you only tune in to broadcast t.v. news, you will have never even heard the name “Gosnell.” According to an April 4 open letter demanding coverage of the Gosnell trial from 20 conservative leaders:
Since the Gosnell trial began three weeks ago, ABC, CBS, and NBC have given the story ZERO seconds of coverage on either their morning or evening news shows. They have not covered Gosnell once since his arrest in January 2011, and even then, only CBS did so.
Print media? In a scathing column today in USA Today, Democrat pro-lifer Kirsten Powers noted:
Massof, who, like other witnesses, has himself pleaded guilty to serious crimes, testified “It would rain fetuses. Fetuses and blood all over the place.” Here is the headline the Associated Press put on a story about his testimony that he saw 100 babies born and then snipped: “Staffer describes chaos at PA abortion clinic.”
The Washington Post has not published original reporting on this during the trial and The New York Times saw fit to run one original story on A-17 on the trial’s first day. They’ve been silent ever since, despite headline-worthy testimony.
And about that AP story Newsbusters’ Tom Blumer noted something peculiar:
AP has not applied the “abortion” tag to any of its 19 “Big Stories” about Kermit Gosnell.
Thus, anyone who attempts to do a tag search on the AP’s web site looking for uses of “abortion” won’t see anything about Gosnell – but they’ll see all kinds of reports about how mean social conservatives, supposedly backward states, and GOP presidential candidates are trying to curb “reproductive rights.”
If there’s an explanation for this practice other than to deliberately minimize readers’ potential exposure to the horrific practitioners, practices, and procedures in the abortion industry as it really operates, I can’t imagine what it would be.
On the House floor today Republican Scott Perry (pictured right), from Pennsylvania, where Gosnell’s murdered his victims, “blasted President Obama and the press for ignoring a Pennsylvania trial in which an abortion doctor is accused of performing late-term abortions and killing one woman,” according to The Hill.
Indeed, Obama shed a tear for the child victims of the Sandy Hook shooting but has said nothing of Gosnell’s baby victims. But we all know Obama would have supported killing the children of Sandy Hook up until, during – and after – the moment of their birth.
Which brings me to the obvious point, nothing earth shattering. The reason the media and pro-abortion politicians are ignoring Gosnell’s trial is because Gosnell was an abortionist. Seven of his victims were killed after they had been aborted, and one died after she had aborted.
Why would people who believe in legalized abortion want to shed negative light on bad things that happen during legalized abortions?
Truth be told, I don’t think these people consider abortion survivors as real people – or Gosnell a mass murderer.
Calling Gosnell a “mass murderer” for completing abortions outside the uterus brings them too close to pro-lifers who call abortionists mass murderers for completing abortions just a few inches the other way.
Yes, geography is an added problem for abortion supporters in this case. Being argued during the Gosnell trial is whether babies were legally aborted inside the uterus, or illegally murdered outside – and likely within a 30-second window of time. This sort of conversation makes the other side run.
And it leads to other uncomfortable conversations on pain and viability. What does it mean if a post-born baby “jumps” when her spinal cord is severed? Do we seriously want to argue this same baby would have not felt her arms and legs being ripped off in a different location a few minutes earlier? And are we all really okay with aborting babies who could survive outside the uterus if just given a chance?
No, the media will likely never give the Gosnell story the attention it merits. It’s way too uncomfortable.
But I think it serves a purpose to continue to hound them on it. No justice, no peace.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Richard Speck. If there was ever a poster child for the death penalty, its him.
On special report online show last night a commenter from audience asked for more coverage of Gosnell trial. Baier said it would come tonight. they at least have covered it.
Thank goodness for Fox News but shame on all the other news networks for ignoring this atrocity!
I’ve been harping on this outrageous neglect of duty on the part of the media on twitter all day. Use the hash tag #WhoIsKermitGosnell.
As a Chicagoan, I was thinking this exact same thing. Thanks for putting it in writing Jill!
I’ve been posting everything I can on Gosnell on GA Gov Nathan Deal’s facebook page…if this happened in PA, it can, and likely is happening in GA, where inspections are lax. Thanks for connecting the dots, Jill !
The world should be weeping over these babies instead of ignoring them. I know i am.
The Kermit Gosnell case has been extensively covered at TruTV.com’s Crime Library
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/kermit-gosnell/inside-the-clinic.html
BTW: Gacy and Dahmer were SERIAL murderers. They murdered, took a lengthy break, then murdered again. This is the pattern of a serial murderer. Speck was a MASS murderer who took multiple lives in a single, brief time period.
Gosnell is a serial murderer. His habit of keeping fetal feet shows he likes souvenirs as is very common among serial murderers. This habit also supports the idea that he has a similar type of mind to other serial murderers.
Mary says:
April 11, 2013 at 4:48 pm
Richard Speck. If there was ever a poster child for the death penalty, its him.
(Denise) This is one reason “pro-life” is not the best title. It should be something like abortion criminalizer because people can get bogged down and distracted by other so-called “life” issues such as the death penalty — which Jill Stanek supports. However, “pro-life” does have a certain ambiguity and people end up talking about the death penalty, euthanasia and assisted suicide, questions about the military and various military actions, and other matters. Jill Stanek specifies “innocent human life” to show this isn’t an anti-death penalty site but “pro-life” has problems as a term.
Of course, “pro-choice” . . . ? What the . . . ? There are a million choices that aren’t controversial.
Well Denise,
I well remember the butchery of those young nurses and how Speck wound up not frying for his crime like he was supposed to. I also recall that he enjoyed prison life so much, somehow he had developed enlarged breasts, that he said people would turn him loose if they only knew.
At his trial he claimed amnesia though he did admit years later that was a lie. Gasp. When asked why he murdered these women he responded with “just wasn’t their night”. BTW, the parents of the young women all died, years of going to parole board meetings to keep this dirtball in the slammer had taken their toll.
So you see Denise, maybe frying this lowlife would have helped keep those poor people alive a little longer to live with the memory of their daughters’ butchery. Also, imagine if he escaped. Look at it that way.
@ Mary: I wasn’t arguing against the death penalty. I wasn’t arguing for the death penalty. I wasn’t really talking about that debate per se. I was only pointing out that this is one reason among many why the abortion debate should be called the abortion debate and the positions have that word in their names rather than get side-tracked with what people might consider other “life” issues.
Personally, it is truly asinine for people to argue back & forth… Pro-Life or Pro-Choice.
Until a person has seen firsthand the utter devastation that killing a ‘Baby Human’ can cause a familial unit… then I really do not feel that they have a front seat, per se, in this battle for the inalienable rights of the unborn babies worldwide (not just in North America).
The time is fastly approaching when computer jockeys, generals and entertainers will be a thing of the past; and we as a Republic will finally be able to gather at the table of reason.
Then and only then will we be able to move forward as a Republic… when ‘We the People’ extend God-given rights to every generation of Baby Humans… Worldwide…
https://www.facebook.com/AbolishRoevWade
Reality, CC, Joan, defend this! Crickets…that’s what I thought.
Omg I am so sorry I looked at the pictures of those babies discarded like trash. Mangled mutilated . Someone must pay. Hell is hot Gosnell. I hope you ROT!
Settle down Anna S, it’s not me keeping this so low profile in the media. It’s the general populace. The media runs stories it knows will grab viewers/readers. Obviously this doesn’t.
Like it or not, agree with it or not, it just doesn’t cut it as a major newsworthy item for most people.
Why? It would appear that most people see no great comparison.
Serial killers drag born people, who have been given names, have birth certificates, are known and loved by other people, off the streets, violate them and then kill them against their loved ones’ wishes.
Gosnell terminated fetuses at the request of the women carrying them. They hadn’t been what most people would consider ‘born’, very few if any would have been given names, none would have birth certificates, and no-one had come to know and love them.
It would appear that in some cases he went about that in a less than acceptable manner. But he would not fly as a ‘serial killer’ on most peoples’ radar.
One thing we must remember …Some people are evil and they will NEVER repent . I also believe many women and men are sociopaths. Is a sociopath born or made? Only God will know with this dirt bag of a human train wreck. Just think of how many evil people took part in Nazi Germany . John Demanuck sp? was Ivan the terrible . He resided a few suburbs away from me in 7 hills Ohio . I’m not sure but I believe he finally did die.
Hey reality did you see the pictures of the BORN. dead outta the womb dead babies ? They should have mattered to their mothers but they didn’t . They matter to God for they are in his loving care now.
Babies all come from something called a mother. So having an abortion makes you the mother of a dead baby.
Yes John Demjanjuk died at age 91
Reality, you have shown yourself to be a true ghoul, defending even this. I knew that about you all along, but it’s still surprising to face such evil.
I was never issued a birth certificate, guess that means I’m not a real human.
I wish your asinine theory could be tested. If this story was run on the front page of the NYT, I say there would be wide interest and horror and a huge public outcry.
That is why the media buries it. Come hell or high water, abortion CAN’T look bad.
So Reality, if a serial killer slays a run away that is unloved and unwanted by his parents and/or society, it’s not murder? By that logic, if a child, no matter the age, is not loved by his parents or anyone else, it’s ok to murder him.
I don’t think so. Murder is murder.
The media runs the stories of mass murders and serial killers because we fear it could happen to one of us. Viewers are not worried that Kermit Gosnell is going after anyone else because we are past the age of his victims. The poor, immigrant, vulnerable women upon which he preyed really do not matter either. Mainstream society only cares about their plight when it is time to feel good at Thanksgiving or Christmas.
Furthermore, abortion is such a political and social hot potato that even when it could be a factor in any story, research, etc. no one wants to touch it.
“defending even this” – I simply explained the real reason why this case isn’t headline news. I said you wouldn’t like it or agree with it.
“I was never issued a birth certificate, guess that means I’m not a real human.” – were you born? Were you given a name? Did family and/or others come to know and love you?
“a run away that is unloved and unwanted by his parents and/or society” – were they born? Did they have a name? Did they have a birth certificate. Did people come to know them?
Reality, the mental gymnastics and hoops you jump through to justify your position….and you still can’t. Instead, you put forth strawman arguments to distract. A person’s life and worth is not contingent on a piece of paper, whether their birth parents love them, or how many people “know them’.
In Gosnell’s clinic, those BORN babies never had the chance to be known or loved. They were brutally murdered before having those chances.
And your obsession with Birth Certificate = Person is just plain strange.
Anna S, here you are doing mental gymnastics and jumping through hoops completely pointlessly. I’m not trying to ‘distract’, I simply explained why this story isn’t headlining. You don’t like that, you don’t agree with it – that’s fine. There’s no ‘strawman’ argument, apart from your attempt – it is a fact that to many people a person’s life and worth is contingent on being born. And to most people an abortion does not constitute being ‘born’, no matter how the procedure is conducted.
“And your obsession with Birth Certificate = Person is just plain strange.” – see if you can jump back over this side of the horse. A birth certificate is just one of a number of devices by which most people determine the fetus/baby distinction.
Joanne is right. Jennifer Morbelli managed to break the news blackout because she was a pretty white woman from the suburbs. Poor women and babies from the ghetto die by the hands of hack abortionist = look the other way.
Shame on the media.
Reality, A doc hybrid of Mengele and the Joker runs a fetal chop-shop on poor women, and the press can’t seem to find an angle that’s interesting?
I don’t buy it. Pure media bias to protect their sacred, golden cow (abortion).
Please try to come up with a more logical, plausible argument.
And as I said, your obsession with a trivial piece of paper while being “ok” with post birth abortion is strange. Guess all those people in third world countries without birth certificates were not “really born” and are not “really people”.
anyway, Lets focus on what’s important here, people!
Mary,
I truly think we have a new one these days…
Reality what justification do you have for extremely late term abortions or killing the baby/denying care after the child is born (like Gosnell did according to reports)? I asked on another thread, about the Florida Born Alive legislation and no pro-choicer explained their position. I see no reasonable explanation for supporting such a thing, I know you guys love the body autonomy argument but that falls flat there.
And really, dude, the guy kept little feet for no reason. Don’t you think that’s creepy, serial killer behavior?
It’s sad to say, but I think Reality has put his/her/their finger on the reason why Gosnell has not gotten the headlines that his morbid story deserves.
Look at it this way: FOX News is by far the most populist news reporter. They give the people what we want to hear, with special emphasis on the way we want to hear it. (This is why the elitists sneer at FOX News as some sort of third-rate news service. The elitists sneer at most American families in the same way.)
Well…. FOX News is not giving Gosnell much coverage. Nothing like the sort of coverage that OJ Simpson’s trial got. They do not trust that this trial will grab the people’s attention.
We can help the News professionals by doing their job for them. Keep the buzz going. Remind people that the outcome of Gosnell’s trial is going to trigger discussion and debate in Congress and statehouses, insurance companies and abortion clinics — and whatever position a person holds on abortion, it is going to be rocked by the aftermath of this trial. Everyone needs to join the clammer for more coverage.
I thought the major media outlets are all dying anyway? That’s what conservatives keep telling me. If that’s the case, I don’t know why they’re so chafed by the lack of coverage of this trial. What do they care if the old media dinosaurs aren’t covering something? How many of them even watch ABC or CBS or read the New York Times or Washington Post?
“a fetal chop-shop” – really? Where are the parts going?
“Pure media bias to protect their sacred, golden cow (abortion).” – the media own abortion??
“Please try to come up with a more logical, plausible argument” – much as you mightn’t like it, there isn’t one.
“your obsession with a trivial piece of paper” – I stated ‘born people, who have been given names, have birth certificates, are known and loved by other people’ – it doesn’t need to be all of those attributes, Just enough of them that the media consumers consider there to be a meaningful distinction. That’s where the importance lies. Focus on that.
reality- You realize that all these qualifications that “most” people, so you say, require to accept that a child has been “born”….they all depend on someone else. That child would depend on other people to name it, love it, give it a birth certificate…apparently all of which, to a good portion of our society, is too much to ask when its an inconvenience to them. You keep presenting this as an argument for other peoples’ disinterest in this story…I surely hope its not a viewpoint you share, because it is completely absurd in my opinion. I will say that as horrific and visually disturbing it is to see a fully developed baby’s spinal cord severed, nothing magical happens once a baby leaves a woman’s body. Whether its terminated in the womb or on the table..we still took it into our hands to decide whether life continued or not and that’s unacceptable. This perception that as long as we terminate a pregnancy before a baby can gain an identity then technically “life” hasn’t started…whoever makes that call is CHOOSING to deny that child their identity and their life. It’s murder whether there is a corpse with a name and birth certificate to show for it or not.
Thanks Jill for a great post. This really exposes just how the mainstream politically correct media is covering up the Kermit Gosnell case. Abortion is politically correct and the unborn can’t speak for themselves so for sure they aren’t going to speak for them even when it comes to reporting real and major news stories.
“Joanne is right. Jennifer Morbelli managed to break the news blackout because she was a pretty white woman from the suburbs. Poor women and babies from the ghetto die by the hands of hack abortionist = look the other way.
Shame on the media.”
You are so right Joanne and Lori.
There is a great deal of racism in those who publicly speak so strongly against it, for example the abortion industry and the mainstream media.
Of course Planned Parenthood has had a racial genocide agenda from it’s very beginnings and the mainstream media has long been complicit with them, and this goes for other branches of the abortion industry.
I have to wonder what the media has to gain in ignoring these horrific crimes. Really, what does any choicer have to gain from their rabid defense of a woman’s “right” to kill her unborn child? Planned Parenthood is the one raking in the dough, what’s in it for everyone else who’s not directly involved in the process/profits from committing abortions?
MSNBC ran a story two days ago. I think. The major media neews sites I look at are MSNBC and CNN.
I was shocked. This blind spot truly shows we liberals are not simply enlightened, superior individuals – we are brainwashed tools.
To think that we cannot see the plight of undocumented citizens unless they are illegal immigrants is just evil-sick.
Jack – “what justification do you have for extremely late term abortions or killing the fetus/denying care after the fetus is ‘born’ – because the woman concerned has decided she wants the fetus terminated.
my2cents – I did say ‘like it or not, agree with it or not’, that’s how it is.
“what does any choicer have to gain from their rabid defense of a woman’s “right” to terminate her fetus?” – defence of womens’ rights and freedoms. Defending them against subjugation.
“what does any choicer have to gain from their rabid defense of a woman’s “right” to terminate her fetus?” – defence of womens’ rights and freedoms. Defending them against subjugation.
Also strings-free sex after white-knighting.
“because the woman concerned has decided she wants the fetus terminated.”
Okay I can kind of see that with the late-term abortions (though I heartily disagree, and I think the body autonomy argument completely falls apart at the point that the unborn can live outside the womb). But seriously, there seems to be no moral or ethical reason to actually kill a neonate that survived an abortion, and no offense Reality but I think it’s just hideous reasoning, that because someone wants someone dead (the infant isn’t using her body at that point, you can’t use that justification at all) they should be.
My mom was horrendously abusive as I’ve talked about, I do know that if she could have she would have let me starve as a newborn, since my dad didn’t let her get the abortion she wanted. My oldest sister and my dad are the reason that I didn’t starve or otherwise die as an infant, my mom was obviously too mentally ill and hateful to care for me. I fail to see how if she had actually managed to get me kill me, either as an infant or an older child, that it’s in anyway different from letting an infant that survived an abortion die or outright killing him or her.
How is it different? I know you would have been a-ok with her aborting me, you probably think it’s a miscarriage of justice she was prevented from doing so, but are you really going to tell me as an infant that I still didn’t have a right to be alive since my mom wanted me dead?
it’s interesting that you bring that up, Jack.
I mean, my standard of living, along with Maggie’s, was pretty crappy for awhile because I didn’t kill her in an abortion.
Just makes me wonder how they expect to get very many people on their side when they’re essentially going up to people saying, “Well, I’m sorry you got to live, your mom was stupid for allowing it, and you should be dead now…but…wanna come with me to a rally?!”
It just doesn’t make any sense.
Like I’ve said before Jack, it is the woman concerned who decides when and if there is a baby. If a legal procedure has been undertaken then the result will be a terminated fetus.
“too mentally ill and hateful” – was she really hateful separate from her mental illness or was that a manifestation of it?
“you probably think it’s a miscarriage of justice she was prevented from doing so” – not if she was mentally ill.
“are you really going to tell me as an infant that I still didn’t have a right to be alive since my mom wanted me dead” – no, you had the right, you were an infant. Born, named etc. etc.
Jill,
When you wrote of “completing abortions outside the womb”, you probably meant completing – as in finishing – abortions outside the womb. On first reading your words though, I thought you were implying that abortions could be completed – as in done/’performed’ – outside the womb which reminded me of the false phrase applied by many to the PP lobbyist in Florida who was said to have been “advocating for ‘post-birth abortions’ “.
If a baby’s already been born and someone kills the baby, that’s Infanticide, end of story. It’s NOT an abortion of any kind – even if the baby survived an abortion attempt before he was killed, moments earlier. The phrase that pro-lifers should use is: post-birth infanticide. Any conflation of the killing of babies who’ve already been born (illegal) with abortion (legal with some limitations) is risky.
Bravo to Kirsten Powers. I always did like her! Even when I (often) disagreed with her, her points tended to be logical (not just mindlessly bleated talking points like with many liberal and occasional conservative pundits); the disagreements usually originated with different premises.
Like I’ve said before Jack, it is the woman concerned who decides when and if there is a baby.
Except on the show “I Didn’t Know I Was Pregnant”. In those cases, babies just magically appear after a woman goes into labor for no reason. In Bizzaro-Irony World.
“Like I’ve said before Jack, it is the woman concerned who decides when and if there is a baby. If a legal procedure has been undertaken then the result will be a terminated fetus.”
*headdesking* So you don’t *really* think this is about protecting a woman’s right to her body, then. Because if it were about ending an unwanted pregnancy, once the fetus was removed from her body, if the procedure failed and it’s alive, there’s no justification for killing it. For you, it seems to be about a woman’s right to kill the fetus. Why doesn’t the fetus get rights, in your mind, when it’s no longer using the woman’s resources.
^I’m being polite as I possibly can but this reasoning is honestly sickening to the core to me. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the body autonomy argument, though I don’t agree, but making the goal killing the fetus instead of protecting the woman’s body is just disgusting.
“was she really hateful separate from her mental illness or was that a manifestation of it?”
I don’t know, she was not abusive to any of my older siblings except somewhat to my brother. I seemed to be some sort of proxy for her hatred of my dad. Mental illness or not I don’t think it was justified to treat me like that.
“not if she was mentally ill.”
Mentally ill women can’t choose to terminate their pregnancies now? Wtf man. If you think that it’s a miscarriage of justice for a woman to be prevented from terminating her pregnancy, you don’t get to change that because you’re uncomfortable telling me it sucks my mom didn’t get to off me in the womb lol.
“no, you had the right, you were an infant. Born, named etc. etc.”
Yes, but how was I different, at all, from an infant that survived an abortion? My mother wanted me just as dead (and my father only wanted me alive as a future object), her intent was to get rid of me though she was prevented to doing so by my dad. How was I intrinsically different?
How was I intrinsically different?
Because he’s carrying on a conversation with you now, and telling you otherwise would make him uncomfortable, of course. XD
lolololololololol
Don’t do that too hard Jack, you might end up not so pretty.
“this is about protecting a woman’s right to her body” – that’s one of the elements. It’s still an important factor.
“Mentally ill women can’t choose to terminate their pregnancies now?” – if at all possible, mentally ill people need to be monitored or assisted in the making of any serious decisions. Marrying, joining NASA, becoming a neurosurgeon. It wouldn’t have ‘sucked’ if your mom had had the capacity to make a rational decision. But you’ve told me she couldn’t. I’m not changing anything.
“how was I different, at all, from an infant that survived an abortion?” – I’m guessing you weren’t born in an abortion clinic. From what you said she was then intent on bringing about your demise. Sounds like there was a whole lot more going on than just whether she could access an abortion.
“if at all possible, mentally ill people need to be monitored or assisted in the making of any serious decisions. Marrying, joining NASA, becoming a neurosurgeon. It wouldn’t have ‘sucked’ if your mom had had the capacity to make a rational decision. But you’ve told me she couldn’t. I’m not changing anything.”
You heard it here first, ladies and gents-Reality states that women should have to undergo mental screening and be approved before undergoing abortions!
“You heard it here first, ladies and gents-Reality states that women should have to undergo mental screening and be approved before undergoing abortions!”
That was so worth staying up to this absurd hour for!
“Reality states that women should have to undergo mental screening and be approved before undergoing abortions!” - feeling the need to make stuff up again eh. Evidently it’s not only the hour which is absurd.
That’s what happens when doing vigorous mental gymnastics, Irony. It gets easier and easier to tie yourself up and get caught in a knot. You just did.
However, if you take issue with what I said, and it is not a true statement about you, then you think that Jack’s mom should’ve and should’ve been allowed to go and have him killed, and you therefore think he should be dead right now.
You can’t have it both ways.
It is one or the other.
Lol my prettiness will be forever unsullied. :D
“if at all possible, mentally ill people need to be monitored or assisted in the making of any serious decisions. Marrying, joining NASA, becoming a neurosurgeon. It wouldn’t have ‘sucked’ if your mom had had the capacity to make a rational decision. But you’ve told me she couldn’t. I’m not changing anything.”
So, women who are mentally ill shouldn’t be allowed to terminate their pregnancies without being monitored? Even though I was the youngest of six, a mistake baby, my parents were poor, my mom is mentally ill and my dad is a sick freak, all the reasons pro-choicers tell me abortion needs to be available for, you think that she didn’t have the right to her own decision even though it’s the “best one” as told to me by many, many pro-choicers who use those arguments?
What if my mom had been the one who wanted me, should my dad have been able to force her to abort if he were so inclined, because she was too ill to make a rational decision?
You’re not making sense to me at all right now, man.
“I’m guessing you weren’t born in an abortion clinic. From what you said she was then intent on bringing about your demise. Sounds like there was a whole lot more going on than just whether she could access an abortion.”
Well, she wanted me dead, but she mostly stopped “actively” trying to bring it about when I was a toddler or so, apparently. She was still very abusive until I got too big to hit. Fun fun. But that’s kinda missing the point. I don’t see how she should have been prevented from killing me in the first place according to your reasoning! I guess now that you are claiming that because of her mental health that she shouldn’t be allowed to make that decision. So you would be okay with mental health screenings of women who are seeking to terminate a late term fetus, maybe? Or possibly the infant that survives an attempted abortion should be allowed to live if the doctor determines that the woman is mentally ill?
I just can’t see your logic here, at all.
But, thanks for not telling me that you’re sorry that my mom wasn’t able to get rid of me, I guess.
“I just can’t see your logic here, at all.”
It’s hard to see something that isn’t there.
“That’s what happens when doing vigorous mental gymnastics, Irony. It gets easier and easier to tie yourself up and get caught in a knot.” – I’ll take your word for that.
“You just did.” – or so you wish.
“However, if you take issue with what I said, and it is not a true statement about you, then you think that Jack’s mom should’ve and should’ve (huh?) been allowed to go and have him killed, and you therefore think he should be dead right now.” – what convoluted thinking! On what basis do you contrive that?
“even though it’s the “best one” as told to me by many, many pro-choicers who use those arguments?” – not by me.
“What if my mom had been the one who wanted me, should my dad have been able to force her to abort if he were so inclined, because she was too ill to make a rational decision?” – nope. He’s not pregnant.
“So you would be okay with mental health screenings of women who are seeking to terminate a late term fetus, maybe?” – nope.
“It’s hard to see something that isn’t there.” – even harder when you don’t want to see it.
“nope. He’s not pregnant.”
But… but you seriously just told me, not five comments ago, that you don’t think it was a miscarriage of justice that my mother was denied an abortion because she was mentally ill. It doesn’t work the other way around? If he decided that it was best that they not have another kid, and she’s mentally ill, she shouldn’t be forced (we agree on that). But if she DOES want an abortion, it’s okay to deny her one because of the mental illness?
I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
You parsed that incorrectly. Let me break it down:
However, if you take issue with what I said, and it is not a true statement about you, then you think that Jack’s mom should have aborted him-
and should have been allowed by her husband to go and have him killed in an abortion, and you therefore think he should be dead right now.”
It’s quite straight forward Jack. It can only ever be the woman’s choice. If a woman has been diagnosed as mentally ill or , as in your case, someone realises such, then they can monitor or assist in the decision. In your case, as messy as it probably was, your dad was able to assist in the making of that decision. These matters aren’t always neat. It’s often messy, but that’s how it is.
Maybe commas are important xalisae :-)
See above.
I like how I tell you that my dad didn’t let her have an abortion, and you turned that into him “assisting her into making a decision”.
I do believe my birth damaged her deeply, and I feel terrible about it. Not *quite* terrible enough to think I should be dead, but pretty bad. However, I don’t see how you, the one who claims to defend women’s “right to choose”, can be okay with the outcome.
“what convoluted thinking! On what basis do you contrive that?”
well, that’s not really an answer then, but I’ll humor you.
Jack’s dad didn’t stop his mom from having an abortion because he thought she was mentally ill. He did it because he wanted Jack alive so he could abuse him.
So, since it wasn’t about her mental illness that she was prevented from obtaining an abortion, and the decision that quite literally was forced upon her did not consider her at all, that would be wrong in your opinion, would it not? And in that case, shouldn’t she have been allowed to make the decision to terminate Jack unimpeded, and should he not therefore be dead right now?
I have observed that many self described pro-choice people commenting on this story are horrified by it. And yet, they remain unwaveringly “pro-choice.” Why? I think the answer is obvious; they don’t associate the things that happened in that building with “legitimate” abortion, or at least that’s what they try to convince themselves of. Therin, I think, lies the reason the media is silent. They know that it is only BECAUSE abortion is legal that this could happen. Does anyone really think that Gosnell could get away with this for so long if abortion was illegal? Legalized abortion ENABLES these atrocities! Whatever else the media is, they aren’t stupid. They know darn well that the more people know about this story, the more connections between it and so called “legitimate” abortion will be made. And abortion MUST NOT be blasphemed!!
Mikey
Heather says:
April 11, 2013 at 9:20 pm
One thing we must remember …Some people are evil and they will NEVER repent . I also believe many women and men are sociopaths. Is a sociopath born or made?
(Denise) It is probably a little of both. Right now, there is no treatment for this disorder. It is likely that a part or parts of the brain are malfunctioning. That malfunction means that the person has no empathy. There is currently no way to instill it. However, I believe research on the brain will eventually lead to a treatment. A way to stimulate or activate the brain function of empathy will be discovered and these people will be helped. It might be in 100 years or it might be somewhat sooner but I believe a treatment will be developed.
Jack I’m sorry to hear you were abused. I have a girlfriend who had a mom who would beat her with wire hangers or whatever she could get her hands on. Her mom was mentally ill but Colleen had a caring dad who kept trying to help her mom. Colleen was thrown into the street by her mom at age 17 and had to live with a friend. Her parting words to her mom? “I will spit on your grave. ” Her dad passed away a few yrs ago of a heart attack . I hate stories like these!!
However I had a good childhood with good parents and I haven’t seen Colleen in a while but Id see depressed behavior at times. Maybe she was unwanted but better than dead. She is a nursing assistant and if she were dead we would have one less kind compassionate person. to care for the elderly.
Anyway how about this….I don’t care if my mom and dad didn’t want me. God wanted me! I want me. I’m living a life of hel* right now but I’m alive to live it. My husband died. My daughter has cancer and now my husband’s 34 year old son has just found out he has stomach and esophageal cancer. please pray for Nick. Its been a bad year but I am standing firm.
I’m just glad my mother was pro life or I never would have been able to experience love laughter good food friendship heartache pain love joy….this is life. But those dead babies didn’t deserve that fate. I really lack understanding as to why someone would abort at all let alone that LATE!! You can feel that baby kicking but you just don’t care? Jack good point about the feet. This man is creepy!!!!
Why is he keeping these babies stashed in boxes n freezers? My God in heaven! What is he doing to those corpses? At least cremation would be a humane thing to do. Jill or anyone do you know why he’s keeping these babies around??
I guess reality doesn’t live “there”
I’m convinced reality is the scarecrow from the wizzard of Oz …lol a real strawman. If I only had a brain. dedede de de de
.Abortionists are really executioners. Abortion is a legal execution of a human person under the unjust laws of The United States of America. These unjust laws do not need to be followed, but do need to be protested vigorously.
The fact that pro life protesters are now being classified under NDAA as “terrorists” indicates that the government will vigorously defend the unjust laws which allow for the execution of unborn American human persons.
The media blackout of the Gosnell case is similar to the media blackout of the March for Life. It is unsettling that the Americans who are indifferent to abortion would probably agree with the NDAA definition of Pro Lifers as terrorists. This propaganda campaign to define Pro Lifers as terrorists goes with the unjust defense of the unjust laws protecting abortion.
The Gosnell case exposes the unjust nature of abortion laws, and reveals Pro Lifers to be the moral actors protecting good laws, not terrorists attacking just laws.
The government doesn’t like to be caught in the middle of this. A good, moral leader would use this case to expose Roe as an unjust law, and would push for an immediate suspension of executions of the unborn through abortion, much like a President can ask for the immediate suspension of the Death Penalty until the Supreme Court decides on the constitutionality of it. Instead, we get silence from the Office of the Chief Executive.
No, Doc Kimble, the Gosnell case doesn’t expose the unjust nature of abortion laws. The Gosnell case is about a doctor who allegedly went outside those laws. If you think an indictment of his situation is an indictment for the “abortion industry” in general, then an indictment of clergy for molestations is an indictment of all clergy. You don’t get it both ways.
So, Life-loving friends, guess what’s the buzz now? Oh, yes, the Gosnell trial coverage is ONLY happening on those pesky extremist PRO-LIFE websites and BECAUSE IT’S NOT being covered by the MAINSTREAM press, that PROVES it’s just some overblown anti-choice propoganda!!
Doncha-know??
It’s a brilliant strategy by the pro-abortion ghouls in the media: marginalize even this atrocity and twist it to look like it’s the pro-lifers just being silly again and trying to make abortion look bad.
Like it or not, agree with it or not, it just doesn’t cut it as a major newsworthy item for most people.
Yet one questionable comment from a senate candidate in Missouri does.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Kermit+Gosnell&word2=Todd+Akin
The first paragraph from the grand jury report is as follows:
Can you honestly say that if you showed 10 random people this text and the picture above, that you think the dominant response would be “meh, they weren’t loved and given a name so they weren’t actually real babies”?
He’s being prosecuted. If the evidence is sufficient, he’ll be convicted. What do you want, wall to wall coverage on Nancy Grace?
I see wall to wall coverage about some coach yelling the naughty words at his team. I see weeks on end of wall to wall coverage about some narcissistic compulsive liar who killed her boyfriend… I see wall to wall coverage about plenty of celebrities that I don’t care about…and have even seen more air time given to a moon-walking equine about whom, no offense, I don’t care, than air time given to this ghoul.
What is glaringly absent is any outrage from abortion rights groups. Apparently, dirty instruments and dead moms and born babies are uninteresting.
What is glaringly absent is any outrage from abortion rights groups. Apparently, dirty instruments and dead moms and born babies are uninteresting.
Hal, what I want is for Gosnell to get A TENTH of the media coverage that Michael Vick got. I’d be happy with a tenth.
It’d be a start. Casey Anthony got more for having done less, Hal.
But X. Caylee Anthony had a birth certificate. AND a name.
OFF TOPIC:
Hey for anyone who’s interested, my grandpa had his surgery yesterday. Saw him today, he’s recovering very well, and this is not just my observation, his doctors seem impressed as well.
@ ninek: Visit the website I linked to in a previous email. Gosnell is covered there.
so, let me get this straight. You think there is a media conspiracy to cover up a juicy crime story about the murder of 100s of babies? And this is because the story of a murdering doctor would hurt the pro-choice movement? I suppose that’s one possibility. If only there was a law preventing such things. Oh, wait…there is. And I guy accused of violating that law is being tried and will probably be convicted.
Awesome JDC I am glad he is doing well.
The “Roe” decision says the state has no compelling interest in the fetus until “viability.”
“He was so big, he could have walked me to the bus stop.”
~Kermit Gosnell~
I can find coverage, but TruTV.com’s Crime Library ISN’T mainstream. That’s what we’re complaining about. But I’m going to comment on the newer thread on Jill’s blog about this subject.
Up earlier in the messages was a discussion about whether names and birth certificates are part of what makes these babies human. As someone who has worked on family history, trust me, if a birth certificate was necessary to be a real person, then there must have been no actual murders until about 150 year ago, some places only 100 years ago. But, we all know that our ancestors did not need a piece of paper to decide who was human. They didn’t have our fancy medical machines, but they knew if you were breathing and had a heartbeat, you were alive. If a baby was weak and might not live, the priest or minister was called for immediately to baptize him (unless you ancestors were anabaptists - then they just prayed). Even a name is not necessary to be human, as one of my now deceased relations found out when he applied for social security. Turned out he had never been legally named. Fortunately, a record of an unnamed baby boy was found that listed his parents and matched his birthday. Was he not human for 65 years before that? Please, let’s get real! If a baby is able to breath, crying and moving, none of the rest – names, certificates, even whether he or she is wanted, decides his or her humanity. If you have to kill him by sticking sissors in his neck, he is alive and it is murder.
So what you are saying xalisae, on Jack’s behalf, is that the single and only reason his dad stopped his mom from aborting him was so that he’d have an additional punching bag. Are you a mind reader? Can Jack even be 100% sure that this was the only thought in his dad’s head?
My dad didn’t use me as a punching bag usually, he was abusive in other ways.
I don’t really think he has much of conscience, and he did basically treat me like an object, so I sincerely doubt there was much altruism in his prevention of my mom’s abortion.
Does this change whether it was cool for him to prevent my mom’s abortion?
So you can’t be sure there wasn’t a grain of thought in his mind of ‘you really aren’t in a fit state to make such a decision lady’ under his thinking that he would also have more cruelty fodder?
If your mom had mental health issues it’s good that she wasn’t able to act, even if what prevented her was messy and far from clear.
If your mom was of sound mind then the decision would have been hers to make. Same as my mom. And anyone else’s.
You’re here, that’s great.
I’m here, some people think that’s great.
If either of our moms had aborted us….nothing.
“So you can’t be sure there wasn’t a grain of thought in his mind of ‘you really aren’t in a fit state to make such a decision lady’ under his thinking that he would also have more cruelty fodder?”
Honestly I’m pretty sure my dad was actually cool with her being so mentally ill, because it basically gave him free reign to do what he wanted with her sons without her protecting either of us or going to the authorities. No I don’t think there was even a grain of protectiveness or anything good in his intentions.
Not that I think it’s unfortunate that he kept me from being aborted, but it’s not like he did it for reasons that weren’t awful.
” If your mom had mental health issues it’s good that she wasn’t able to act, even if what prevented her was messy and far from clear.
If your mom was of sound mind then the decision would have been hers to make. Same as my mom. And anyone else’s.”
If you believe this I don’t understand why you would be anti-mental health screenings at abortions clinics.
“You’re here, that’s great.
I’m here, some people think that’s great.
If either of our moms had aborted us….nothing.”
Not “nothing”, we’d be dead. I don’t think it’s nothing. If we had never been conceived, that’s a different story.
imo the choice to kill children in the womb should be illegal to begin with; but; if it is legal then men deserve veto power in any ‘choice’ to terminate children conceived through consensual sex.
Death is a nothing Jack. If you or I were dead…nothing. We wouldn’t be thinking, feeling or remembering anything. Death is only a suffering to the living.
People often say ‘I don’t want to die’. Sounds perfectly reasonable. I prefer to say ‘I don’t want to stop living’. I enjoy living and want to do a bit more of it. But once death arrives…nothing.
Jack, you make the most important point of all, I think. Every aborted baby existed. Every aborted baby said “I want to live,” not by words, of course, but by developing, growing, individualizing. Every aborted baby was here. To abort him or her, you had to choose violence and/or chemicals to stop the heart. Every aborted baby was expelled and had to be disposed of. Every aborted baby was here.
And I want you to listen to me, Jack. Your mom was crazy, Ok. Your dad was evil, OK. No matter. Your worth–or anyone else’s–WAS NEVER dependent upon what others thought. That wholeness is yours to reclaim.
Don’t feed Reality. He gets off by displaying his inhumanity and tries to foist that upon innocent babies. Let that crap go. You get it, even after all you’ve been through, and I’m so glad.
“Death is a nothing Jack”.
Not for everyone Jack. The ones who kill children and fail to repent will burn in Gehenna for eternity
“Death is a nothing Jack. If you or I were dead…nothing. We wouldn’t be thinking, feeling or remembering anything. Death is only a suffering to the living.
People often say ‘I don’t want to die’. Sounds perfectly reasonable. I prefer to say ‘I don’t want to stop living’. I enjoy living and want to do a bit more of it. But once death arrives…nothing.”
Yes, death is nothingness. But would you give up the chance you had to experience the world, impact people, fall in love, etc? I mean, everybody dies, but we only get that one chance to experience anything. I had it really, really rough for the first idk couple decades of my life, and it’s not like I’m doing great now, but if I had died before I even had a chance to get out I never would have gotten to meet my kids (they wouldn’t even exist), never gotten the chance to become a decent-ish person despite what had been done to me. I mean, my kids will be the first in a long, long line on my dad’s side to never have been around sexual abuse and beatings and all the horrors, they might even get to be the first that graduate from college, they’ll go on to have kids that won’t be in that environment either. If I hadn’t had the chance to even grow up, none of that would exist. My family line would just perpetrate violence and nothing good would come out of it. I deserved to not have my life taken from me, for my kid’s sake if nothing else.
Thank you Courtnay I appreciate it.
I mean, I matter Reality. I matter just as much as the wanted kid who got hugs and kisses and didn’t get into drugs. I don’t mean less, and my death wouldn’t have been less tragic, than some wanted child who was stillborn.
“men deserve veto power” – now why am I not surprsied to hear that from you truth(boysarebetterbecausetheycanrunfasterandpickupbiggersticksthangirlscan)seeker
“But would you give up the chance” – we either never existed in any form, concept or capacity, or we are alive or we are dead after our lives have ended.
It isn’t possible to decide whether we want to come into existence or not. There aren’t little clouds of something floating around in space which now and then decide ‘I think I’ll get a life’.
What you describe isn’t something you would have the chance to ‘give up’. You’re alive so it’s happened. If you hadn’t been born it wouldn’t have happened.
That’s cold man.
I think the world is better with my kids in it.
blah blah blah blah blah. blah.
If you hadn’t been born it wouldn’t have happened.
Because if you are aborted or miscarried, little faeries appear who flit about erasing your presence from known history. They fire disintegration beams at your remains so that your corpse evaporates, and use a special vacuum to remove any trace of a memory of your existence from anyone who might’ve known about it. They even have a special filter that they run through the air of anywhere your heartbeat was played aloud on Doppler and it actually removes the individual air molecules which vibrated with the sounds of your heart tones from the area.
Why not? If Personhood Faeries can confer Personhood upon someone by sprinkling them with Personhood dust as they pass from their mother’s body, I think they should be the ones who have to clean up the mess after someone “never happened”.
And honestly, I don’t really mind the vicious pro-choicers I come across, saying that children of rapists should be forced-aborted because they’re defective, saying that poor women that don’t abort are irresponsible and should have gotten rid of their kids, yada yada. Even commenter Jake, who likes to make rape jokes and call me gay because my dad abused me, doesn’t bother me too much. But this cold thing, the “meh, makes no difference whether you died or not”, that actually upsets me. I can understand mean, I don’t understand cold.
Jack, for anyone to embrace abortion, coldness is a prereq.
What I keep hearing you trying to do Jack, is imbue non-existence with traits it can’t possibly contain.
You’re here. Your kids are here. You can only feel and say these things because you are here.
If you hadn’t been born your kids wouldn’t have been born. How would any ‘you’ have had any…anything…about that? We exist or we don’t. It’s not cold, it’s real.
Or it just REAL COLD.
(and stupid).
You’re completely missing the point. I impact the world. My existence makes a difference, my death would make a difference. I’m not talking about how I would feel if I weren’t here (I couldn’t feel anything then), I am talking about impact. Everyone needs a chance, once they exist, to see that existence out.
Why do you think people mourn, for goodness sake? What would be the point of caring if anyone died, ever, if the impact we make on the world and the way we affect people isn’t important?
“never happened” applies nowhere within the realm of abortion. It’s like thinking you can un-strike a match.
“Merit” says:
“No, Doc Kimble, the Gosnell case doesn’t expose the unjust nature of abortion laws. The Gosnell case is about a doctor who allegedly went outside those laws. If you think an indictment of his situation is an indictment for the “abortion industry” in general, then an indictment of clergy for molestations is an indictment of all clergy. You don’t get it both ways.”
But this isn’t about the Catholic clergy, and it has absolutely nothing to do with it. In any case, molestation and murder are two different things. When two things are the same as a third thing, they are the same as one another. You don’t get to charge molesters with murder, and you don’t get to charge murderers with molestation. They are different charges. But nice try, anyway.
“Merit”:
In any case, I’m saying murder of the born IS the same as murder of the preborn. They are the same as one another.
No matter what anyone tries to convince me I won’t stop believing my life is worthwhile and I deserved to live.
If we’re all just born to die, what purpose and meaning is there to be born at all? What purpose and meaning can be attached to our bodies, if we’re only meant to have a body which dies? The biggest tragedy of this age we live in is that the idea that we are all born without purpose and meaning has ascended to become the purpose and meaning for writing laws which govern our daily lives. For instance, why provide a defense for defensless children in schools if their lives have no purpose or meaning? Why would the strong have reason to defend the weak if the weak have no purpose or meaning to fulfil in their lives beyond today? Why trade one purposeless and meaningless life for another?
It appears that you failed to grasp the concept xalisae. Jack asked “But would you give up the chance you had to experience the world, impact people, fall in love, etc?” – and the fact is that we would can’t contemplate such a question if we don’t exist. No airbrushing of history is required.
“My existence makes a difference, my death would make a difference” – indeed. But how many quadrazillion possibilities and impacts are there every second in time due to people, animals, flora, weather, astronomical events. Would the world be better or worse with or without you, me or any of the things I listed. Its great for you that you exist. Its great for me that I exist. For the universe and everything in it, meh.
“Why do you think people mourn, for goodness sake? What would be the point of caring if anyone died, ever, if the impact we make on the world and the way we affect people isn’t important” – most people mourn because they no longer have that someone they loved or cared about. If we never lived, not so much.
Merit is right Doc Kimble. If you’re going to slam abortion for what Gosnell may have done then you should equally slam institutions for what the molesters within them have done. Abortion is legal, molestation isn’t.
Yeah reality…you say you enjoy life. Why didn’t these children get to enjoy their lives? And I respect ANYONE who has opposition to abortions. I don’t care if you are post abortive x20 or if you don’t believe in God or if ya do. Male female whatever your race…..I respect pro lifers but also many of us here do believe in an afterlife . I am not delusional. I believe in heaven and hell and knowing that I will get to see my loved ones again is what gets me through.
I can’t discuss this anymore. Sorry Reality.
and the fact is that we would can’t contemplate such a question if we don’t exist. No airbrushing of history is required.
And the fact is that being aborted isn’t a lack of existence. It is living for a little while and then having your lifespan cut short by being killed. YOU are trying to airbrush history by pretending that a human being that is killed in an abortion is the same thing as that human being never existing/being conceived.
Go on then xalisae, prove to me that a developing fetus can contemplate whether or not it would you give up the chance to experience the world, impact people, fall in love, etc. That question about ‘would you give up the chance’ was the point under discussion when you waded in.
Besides which, it was in reference to what the dead may or may not be able to contemplate, the answer to which is nothing.
You have nothing to apologise for Jack.
And for your benefit xalisae I hereby advise that at this juncture I shall be absenting myself from here for somewhere in the vicinity of 40 hours :-)
Good night
My friends, have I taught you nothing? You notice I am not arguing with Reality. Why do you suppose I’m not?
Mary remember the saying if you argue with a fool you become one? Jack is great pro life. I find reality to be a fake and a fool. He can’t possibly be serious.
Jack says…reality i can’t do this with you anymore . Probably wise not to. Who can?? I give you a heck of a lot of credit for trying though .
I don’t mind back and forths with Reality about most things, I just can’t talk about this subject anymore. It’s upsetting.
“I find reality to be a fake and a fool. He can’t possibly be serious.”
I’ve long wondered if he was actually just a troll trying really hard to make pro-choicers look bad. If so, he is epicly succeeding.
“Reality”:
When exactly was abortion made legal, really?
To believe that abortion is legal in America you have to believe several monstrous Big Lies:
1. That courts make our laws, even though the Constitution only grants lawmaking power to the legislative branch.
2. That our equal rights come from the arbitrary whims of men and can therefore be alienated, even though our nation’s charter asserts just the opposite, that our rights come from our Creator and that they are therefore unalienable.
Any law, judicial opinion, or executive action that denies the equal right of any innocent person to live is lawless. It is null and void.
“This natural law, being as old as mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, from this original.”
— William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Law of England (1765)
“True law is right reason in agreement with nature; it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrong-doing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, although neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal a part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by Senate or People, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for He is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly called punishment …”
— Marcus Tullius Cicero, 59 – 47 B.C.
“Human law is law only by virtue of its accordance with right reason; and thus it is manifest that it flows from the eternal law. And in so far as it deviates from right reason it is called an unjust law; in such case it is no law at all, but rather a species of violence.”
— Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologiae, Ia-Ilae, q. xciii, art. 3, ad 2m.
“Government…should be formed to secure and to enlarge the exercise of natural rights of its members, and every government, which has not this in view, as its principle object, is not a government of the legitimate kind.”
— James Wilson
“[A]ll men are equally bound by the laws of nature, or to speak more properly, the laws of the Creator.”
— Samuel Adams
“Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature.”
— Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, The Report of the Committee of Correspondence to the Boston Town Meeting, Nov. 20, 1772
“The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.”
— George Washington, 1789
Jdc he is…that’s all he is!
Go to Audio Sancto.com 2012 archives. Look for you can be pro- life and support the death penalty. powerful argument.
Hi Bruce W,
Thank you. I view capital punishment as a form of societal self defense. View the movie “A killer in the family” starring Robert Mitchum on Youtube. An actual case that occured in the mid seventies. BTW, not shown in the movie is that the teenage victim survived and dragged her bullet shattered body to a desert road where she finally died of exposure.
Yes I know, if someone had only taken the time to understand these kllers, this wouldn’t have happened.
Hi Denise Noe,
I hope you watch this movie as well. So much for “precautions”.
Hi Jerry,
Robert Mitchum portrays a textbok sociopath in this movie. Since we’ve often discussed sociopathy, you might find it interesting. You’ll see all the characteristics I have pointed out. Of course not all sociopaths are this extreme or even criminal, in fact some may be of great value to law enforcement and military service, taking the risks and doing the jobs no one else would dare.
Hey reality my husband’s death certificate is just now ready for pick up but he died February 28th. Does that mean he’s been alive all this time because it took a few weeks for a death cert. to be issued?
Hi Heather, 11:39am
Please heed Big Joe’s words of wisdom: You laugh at idiots, you make fun of idiots, you let them make fools of themselves, but you NEVER argue with one!
This answers the question I posed at the end of my 10:56PM post.
The premise of this commentary is unutterably flawed and not based on facts.
First: what this man did was in no way legal. Roe v. Wade does not allow for late-term abortions except under specific–and dire–circumstances. No doctor worth his/her medical license or Hippocratic Oath would ever dare perform a late term abortion except to save the life and/or fertility of the mother, or end a pregnancy in which the fetus has no hope of surviving outside the womb, or to remove a fetus that has died in vitro.
Second, the following statement: “But we all know Obama would have supported killing the children of Sandy Hook up until, during – and after – the moment of their birth.” is so unbelievably offensive and dishonest as to take my breath away. President Obama supports a woman’s right to determine her own biological destiny, which may or may not include having babies. He has never, ever said he supports a woman’s “right”–a right, by the way, which doesn’t even exist in law or in the Constitution–to walk into a women’s health clinic eight months pregnant and demand an abortion just because. To say otherwise is outrageous and slanderous, and you, madam, ought to be ashamed.
Third, as a staunchly pro-choice mother of two boys, I absolutely believe Gosnell is a mass murderer. What he did was not abortion, it was murder. What Gosnell did is not sanctioned by any law in this country anywhere. Roe v. Wade does not allow for unrestricted abortion past the first trimester. I do not believe for one second that this man would have been able to carry out his atrocities had his “clients” thought they had other options. Desperate women will do desperate things to end a pregnancy. Banning abortion WILL NOT STOP ABORTIONS. It will only lead to more horror stories, more butchers like Gosnell who not only murder babies but destroy women in the process.
Fourth: the only way to reduce abortion–the ONLY WAY–is to ensure that all kids have access to comprehensive sex ed, that all women (at least!) have access to contraception that is safe and affordable, and that family planning clinics like Planned Parenthood can continue to do what they do, the vast majority of which are NOT actually abortions but FAMILY PLANNING SERVICES like providing that low-cost contraception, and prenatal care and cancer screenings. Every child a wanted child, and all women in control of their healthcare.
The classical Hippocratic Oath has been summarised as:
‘A solemn promise:
Of solidarity with teachers and other physicians.
Of beneficence (to do good or avoid evil) and non-maleficence (from the Latin ‘primum non nocere’ or ‘do no harm’) towards patients.
Not to assist suicide or abortion.
To leave surgery to surgeons.
Not to harm, especially not to seduce patients.
To maintain confidentiality and never to gossip.’
Nicole, abortion is not healthcare.
Planned Parenthood does not do cancer screenings.
Saying Banning abortions will not stop abortions is like saying banning rape will not stop rape. Probably not, but it’s a stand and it’s a start.
A woman can get a third trimester abortion for any reason of she looks hard enough. See Jennifer Morbelli.
Your boy Obama LOVES abortion. He loves it with the hot hot love of a thousand suns. Oh, and BTW, a woman who kills her own child is not fulfilling her “biological destiny.” (where do you people come up with this stuff??) She is pretty much killing her own child. She was in charge of her biological destiny BEFORE she conceived.
Nice try with pinning Gosnell on stringent abortion restrictions. Look at the pictures, Nicole. This is what abortion is. Women are dying in LEGAL abortion clinics, under the aegis of an industry who resists ANY AND ALL attempts at reform and regulation. OWN IT.
And finally, you’re a mom of 2 boys. Sweet. Exactly when did they become precious enough to warrant your protection? Did your wanting them change their legal and moral status? I’m a mom myself. If I am willing to do anything for them after they’re born, and they have the right to expect that of me, why wouldn’t it be the same BEFORE they are born?
Pro-choice Moms. How does that even HAPPEN???
“Roe v. Wade does not allow for late-term abortions except under specific–and dire–circumstances.”
I’m not even going to bother reading a word beyond this point. Seriously, have you ever even heard of roe’s companion case, Doe v. Bolton? Look it up, and you will see the problem with the premise you just put forward.
A couple of years ago, Dr Gosnell was recognized as a Pillar of the Community, providing much-needed services mainly to underserved and underprivileged black women. It’s amazing to me that Mr Obama never used Dr Gosnell for a prop in one of his “Charm Offensive” forays into the Sweet Land of Liberty. It would be uplifting to see Mr Obama surrounded by other such outstanding and humble servants of the underprivileged in a photo op with The Greatest President Ever.
Be that as it may, one can truly say of Dr Gosnell “How art the mighty fallen.” There may yet be hope for Dr Gosnell; perhaps testimony from Dr Singer from Princeton, who is a serious thinker on such things, and who considers after birth abortion a viable option, will be the weight and gravitas that will change people’s minds as to Dr Gosnell being a “mass murderer.” Who knows? Perhaps some day in the near future, those who now consider Dr Gosnell a “mass murderer” will be ostracized by their peers for ever having thought that of this faithful Servant of the Poorest of the Poor. The times, they are a’changin’
Nicole,
Own up to the fact that legal abortion only enabled dregs like Gosnell to hang a shingle. I’m old enough to remember pre-Roe and I can assure you no abortion horror stories from that era ever held a candle to this. Gosnell was operating with the full blessing of the law, just like Carhart.
Naturally as a PC person you are mortified. Abortion is supposed to be performed in sterility and safety by medical professionals. Welcome to the world of criminals, perverts, and dregs who prey on women under the most unsfe and unsanitary conditions imaginable, and do so with the full blessing of the law.
This is 2013, abortion has been legal for 40 years and the horror stories of old are just bad memories, right Nicole? Isn’t that what you’ve been told?
This testimony came to my attention recently, and it has everything to do with Nicole’s premise that “the ONLY way to end abortion is through Sex Ed”:
I really don’t understand why everyone seems to be under the mistaken impression that sex Ed and bc will help stop kids from getting pregnant. I was a teen mom with many friends who were also teen moms. None of us blamed our situation on lack of ‘facts’ or inability to obtain some form of bc. Condoms are handed out like candy at local health clinics and I given 3 months worth of birth control from PPH for free, on multiple occasions. Intellectually we all know that sex creates a baby, but when it actually happens to an unmarried pair, who were not trying for one, its seen as this strange, tragic event that defies explanation. Suddenly kids who were doing the same things you were go around and talk about you, call you names and put you down, because somehow you got this whole sex thing wrong and made a baby. We know where babies come from but our society and culture tell us that to be young is to have sex. To be free is sex. To have happiness is sex. To be successful, have sex! Once your successful have even more sex!
I’ve had lots of sexual education, starting in counseling when I was 5. It never corrected my world view that I was as good as my body could give. I had multiple semesters of sex Ed, attended seminars, read books, visited planned parenthood multiple times. None of that helped me. None of that stopped me from having premarital sex, nor did for most of the kids I went to school with. The one thing that never changes when I talk to other teen moms is ” I wish my parents had taught me better. ” ” I wish my church had talked more about sex and marriage” ” I wish I had heard from more people who did this the hard way”.
Birth control is not the answer. Sexual education in our schools is not the answer. Being parents and churches who love our kids and want to see better for them is. Getting educated and speaking to our kids about the reality of sex and the hardship that comes from it outside of marriage is what we need to be doing. And if they mess up, which they will, being there to love them but hold them accountable.
Mary says:
April 13, 2013 at 8:18 am
Hi Bruce W,Thank you. I view capital punishment as a form of societal self defense. View the movie “A killer in the family” starring Robert Mitchum on Youtube. An actual case that occured in the mid seventies. BTW, not shown in the movie is that the teenage victim survived and dragged her bullet shattered body to a desert road where she finally died of exposure.Yes I know, if someone had only taken the time to understand these kllers, this wouldn’t have happened.
(Denise) Current therapies are either ineffective with psychopaths or make them worse by informing them of other people’s weaknesses. Research being done on psychopathic brains may well lead to a development of a treatment. One major finding is that psychopaths have thinner brain tissue in specific parts of the brain. It is quite possible that the ability to empathize is a brain function. They do not have this brain function, possibly because the thinness of tissue in some areas means there is just not enough of that part of the brain to do its job.
There are also cases on record of “acquired psychopathy” which lend credence to the contention that they have malfunctioning brains. People with no history of anti-social behavior had severe head trauma and became psychopaths when they recovered. It is likely the ability to empathize was, quite literally, knocked out of their brains.
RIGHT NOW, there is no way to ensure such people won’t just continue to harm others. Hopefully, ways will eventually be developed to help stimulate the function of empathy in those who do not have it.
Hey Jack and another thing I meant to say was that a lot of abused kids vow NEVER to repeat the cycle on their own kids. I have yet another friend in her 70s. You wouldn’t believe me if you saw her but anyway she n her twin sister and their brother were all sexually raped and abused between the ages of 8 to 12 by their father and uncle. Her mom turned a blind eye. Couldn’t tell you why. All of the abusers are long dead and gone. My friend still sees a therapist because she says it helps her. She’s quite wealthy and she became an excellent mom to two successful kids. I’m sure you are a good dad.
There was physical abuse there too but all 3 of them had their own kids and didn’t repeat the abuse cycle . My friends brother is a bad alcoholic though. It could have stemmed from the abuse.
Thanks Heather. I’m glad your friend is doing well too.
I strongly dislike the implications that abused as a kid = abusive when the kid grows up. It especially stigmatizes male sexual abuse victims and isn’t very fair. And it’s hurtful.
“a lot of abused kids vow NEVER to repeat the cycle on their own kids” – now that is a statement I very much agree with
as is
“I strongly dislike the implications that abused as a kid = abusive when the kid grows up”
I decided from a young age that I would make every effort not to have relationships like my parents or to treat any children I might have like my father did.
I think you spend a little too much time practising sixth sense type stuff Mary.
” I decided from a young age that I would make every effort not to have relationships like my parents or to treat any children I might have like my father did.”
So did I. A lot of people I know never perpetuate the cycles of abuse, but the stigma remains. It’s quite unfair, and even though most abusers have some history of abuse, I don’t see how it helps anyone to alienate people who already had it rough.
As I have said Reality,
I know you easily confuse the metaphorical with the literal.
Hi Jack,
Hw many children do you have?
You’re funny Mary, don’t stop :-)
I have two, 4 year old boy and a 2 year old girl.
Reality,
Flattery will get you everywhere. ;)
Forget about gun control. It strikes me that scissors control is a higher priority.
I have written a blog post suggesting that what we need isn’t a maximum age for abortion, but a minimum age, that starts when the foetus is viable, coupled with a law requiring all abortions to be “botched” deliberately, so that the child survives the abortion. Then the mothers can all have their right to choose to have their pregnancies terminated (after waiting a few months), whilst their babies can enjoy their right to life. That should keep everybody happy.
See “Thinking outside the botch”, at
http://JohnAllmanUK.Wordpress.com
John you’re basically talking about requiring abortions to be preterm inductions after viability? I don’t think anyone is going to see that as a compromise, pro-life or pro-choice.
I think John feels he is scaling new heights of sarcasm Jack.
Lol probably. I have trouble picking up sarcasm in text.
Jack and Reality, have a look at the full blog post, why don’t you? Then you will get the full measure of it.
Thinking outside the botch
http://johnallmanuk.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/thinking-outside-the-botch/
There is a link to the 21 minute-long documentary coverage of what happened., and lots of other useful links too.
John, so I take it you’re mainly just here to promote your blog?
Meh I don’t feel like clicking random blogs today, Haven’t updated my anti-virus and have my proxy off today.
You’re still advocating enforced gestation John.
101% agreement JDC!
@ JDC
“John, so I take it you’re mainly just here to promote your blog?”
Yes and no, really. Today, I am promoting one particular post because it is relevant to this topic. Another day, I might not be promoting anything I’ve put on my blog.
I’ve had a few thoughts about this whole abortion thing lately, and other topics that have started hitting other people’s radar. I emailed the owner of this site, Jill, which I have only just discovered over the weekend. Today, I somehow found out about this particular thread here.
If one has a thought about a news story, and especially a thought that pulls together several news stories, it is easier to write the entire “essay” on one’s own blog, and then just drop the executive summary into a few discussions, rather than continually saying the same thing over and over again, to different people.
Whether I settle here, and join in other discussions, remains to be seen.
I am promoting the place where I put down my thoughts at length on the case being discussed her, today. It’s not like promoting a commercial site, in its entirety, which is completely off topic. That’s spam.
As far as Jack’s worries are concerned, I would think WordPress was fairly safe, most unlikely to be distributing malware.
Anyway, suit yourselves. I thought some of the people here might enjoy “Thinking outside the botch”. It is a an example of tongue-in-cheek black comedy, with a very serious point behind it. And it’s too long to paste the entire text here, especially as I only signed up today.
Jack I hope you didn’t take my post as any sort of attack on you. I was simply saying that I have heard of terribly abused kids who break the cycle and would never harm their own. This includes boys who were molested. They don’t go on to be molesters. My friend is ok. She chose to forgive as part of healing . I went with her years ago to visit her mom in a nursing home. At this point the woman had dementia . Idk if I could have done it but then again I am not her.
I’m sure you’re quite a great dad Jack.
Also Jack I haven’t been on in a while but from what I’ve gathered you are taking care of your kids on your own. Aside from my 2 grown up kids so am I as you know I am newly widowed. This isn’t easy.
I should clarify my daughters dad is in her life and he is an A1 Dad. She is not from my marriage and we have joint custody.
Don’t worry, Heather. I didn’t take anything you said as any kind of assumption about me or attack on me. I know kids, including boys who were molested, break the cycle all the time (I’m one of them!). I was just pointed out that I think the abused kids = an adult who abuses thing seems to be quite prevalent (and awful) against boys who were sexually abused. I got in a huge argument with my neighbor once (she was quite surprised, because I’m generally very quiet) because she said something to the effect of “too bad Sandusky abused those boys, he just made a whole bunch more child rapists”. I was not pleased. It’s one of the main reasons I never tell anyone I was sexually abused when I’m not anonymous online (and even then I have trouble talking about it), I’ve only told my ex (she was NOT very nice about it) and one of my friends.
Jdc wishing your grandfather well!
Omg Jack I’m so terribly sorry I had no idea!
Your neighbor was ignorant . Sandusky victimized boys! I remember a story years ago and watched the footage. A man molested a father’s son. While they were walking the rapist into the courtroom the father was hiding behind a part of the wall. As police walked the handcuffed man by the father he stepped out and put a bullet through the guys head and killed him. No charges were ever filed against the dad!
I’m fine with that outcome . Can’t say I wouldn’t have done the same.
Yeah, my neighbor was ignorant. I don’t think it’s entirely her fault, some abuse myths are quite prevalent and even well-meaning people propagate them (abused kids grow up to be abusers, boys abused by men end up gay, girls molested by men turn out to be “sluts”, etc etc etc).
I can’t say that I can blame the father in your story a whole lot. I don’t agree with the death penalty or vigilantism but I feel bad for him. I hope he got some serious counseling.
I wonder if Mary remembers that story. I remember the Chuck Stuart case very well as did she. He shot his pregnant wife and himself pretending someone else had done it. He ended up with a colostomy bag i believe . When police caught onto him he jumped off a bridge and killed himself.
“Jdc wishing your grandfather well!”
Thanks, Heather. It means a lot.
Hi Heather,
I don’t recall that particular incident. However, you can see a dramatization of the Chuck Stuart case on youtube. Its “Good Night Sweet Wife”. Excellent movie and it shows the Boston police “Brown Shirt” tactics in the black community, about which the black community was justifiably outraged. How ironic in such a bastion of liberal Democrat tolerance and enlightenment as Boston. Thankfully Stuart did the planet a favor by exiting it.
I’ve, been thinking about what I said last night, and I’m just going to apologize to John. I was acting like a jerk, and I honestly usually don’t say anything when people link to their own blogs. I was probably just in a bad mood last night. Again, sorry.