Pro-abortion NAACP claims Zimmerman violated Trayvon’s right to life
The most fundamental of civil rights – the right to life – was violated the night George Zimmerman stalked and then took the life of Trayvon Martin.
~ Statement from the pro-abortion National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in protest of the not guilty verdict in the trial of George Zimmerman, via CNN, July 14
Preacher and motivational speaker Demetrius Minor weighs in [HT: The Other McCain]:
No, the justice system in FL is not an example of how black people lives are degraded. Planned Parenthood and abortion are examples of that.
— Demetrius Minor (@dminor85) July 14, 2013

Your civil right to not be followed at a distance by someone doesn’t quite compare with your civil right not to be slaughtered when you’re at your youngest and most vulnerable age.
Hi Hans,
I certainly agree but I have to maintain that this whole tragedy could have been avoided if GZ had remained in his vehicle at all times and let the police do their job. Its one thing to actually witness a crime and take action, I consider that heroic, its quite another to take it upon yourself to follow someone with your loaded gun because he/she looks suspicious, a purely subjective assessment. A great way to end up in court…..or dead. People may react very violently to your following them.
What color or race does the CDC claim for the aborted babies in the womb when their mother is White and the father is … ??? OR the mother is Black or Hispanic and the father is … ???
If a Black is not really dark like a Haitian they prob. have some White blood. Do know a rather dark Black that has blue in his eyes.
I have been mistaken for Italian or Jewish when, as far as I know, I am neither.
We are all descended from Adam and Eve, not to mention Noah and his family.
The news coverage about the Zimmerman trail covers up the news that affects scandals in our government.
Why be upset about the Zimmerman trial when 55+ million have been aborted in this country alone?
So even the NAACP agrees that the right to life, not the oh so precious “bodily autonomy”, is the most fundamental of civil rights. If only their abortion stance reflected that.
I agree with Mary.
Inb4 people assassinate Trayvon’s character, I don’t see why people can’t support that they don’t think Zimmerman should have any charges without bashing on a dead kid, but that’s all I’ve seen about this case.
Jack,
I’ve seen most of the bashing on Zimmerman for not just waiting in the car. He explained he wanted to get the address of where Trayvon was ‘loitering”. He wasn’t ordered to wait. He stayed on the phone and when he was told he didn’t need to follow anymore, he said “ok”.
But Trayvon has some responsibility in this tragedy. Don’t hug the backs of apartments to get out of the rain, and if you’re nervous about being followed in the dark, go home and call 911. He felt he should circle back and confront Zimmerman.
Mistakes were made on both sides.
Nobody’s “bashing” on Zimmerman by simply stating that he made a stupid decision by getting out of the car, and no one’s bashing on Trayvon by saying he shouldn’t have confronted Zimmerman. I’m talking about the people who will say the kid was a nasty thug and got what he deserved and that apparently getting in trouble once for smoking pot makes him an evil person. It’s ridiculous, I can’t imagine that being my dead child and having watch people say terrible things about him.
And Zimmerman’s a grown man, not a 17 year old, so I’m always going to hold him more responsible than Martin. But whatever, it’s done with, people should stop talking about them for the family’s sake.
Hi Jack,
I point out to people it doesn’t matter if TM was saint or sinner, he wasn’t committing any crime, and he had a right to be in the neighborhood, he was the guest of one of the residents.
The more I’ve researched this the more I’m convinced GZ was a man on a mission, his comments about how the a****s always get away and f* punks or a racial slur. Do I believe he was out to kill anyone? No. But by playing cop he put himself in a potentially deadly situation. I can think of any number of ways the fight could have started and that GZ may well have been the instigator and I’m not convinced his life was in danger. I’d still like to know for certain who was screaming. Was GZ being beaten? Or did TM discover GZ had a gun and was terrified?
That’s what I mean Jack, so many scenarios and possibilities. We only have one side of the story. Its like the person who picks a fight and finds himself in over his head, now he shoots to kill. Yes he was killing in self defense, but maybe he shouldn’t have gone looking for trouble to begin with. Its what can happen when you play cop.
Hi Hans,
That’s GZ’s account. Also, when you step out of your home or vehicle, you make yourself vulnerable. What if TM was an armed prison escapee with a couple of unseen accomplices? GZ would have put himself and his family into a hostage situation. Unless you are directly threatened, i.e. someone is smashing your car window to get to you, you remain in your home or vehicle, and let the police do their job.
Also Hans, we can say TM should have done this and that. Kids don’t think and reason like adults and none of us will always think sensibly when scared.
I don’t think Zimmerman was out to kill anyone but I think it’s apparent he was looking for trouble and fancied himself a big man law enforcer for the neighborhood, he was going to end up with issues one day.
I just don’t know how people can have such little empathy for a dead teenager and his family. I don’t care about the case anymore, honestly, I’m just sick of how terrible people are being about it.
And to be on topic, the NAACP is ridiculous, they should realize that the black abortion rate is hugely disproportionate and a lot of lives are being lost like that.
If you don’t know the laws of Florida and didn’t follow the case and hear the evidence you should not be commenting on it. This whole thing is riding on hearsay for most of you and what you claim to be evidence would not be admissible in court, therefore you lose any credibility. I find it so sad that so many people have fallen into the trap of their own opinion matters in this case.
If you feel you have to comment on what was right and wrong…please go get the transcripts, understand the laws and then comment. You are not adding any good to these discussions if you don’t…only fuel for the fire.
Who here was claiming the verdict was wrong?
All this really is, is Monday Armchair quarterbacking…should have, could have, would have. None of us were there.
What we know for sure is one young man is dead and another will have to live with this for the rest of his natural born days. Both families are victims when it comes to the pain. I had a brother in law who was murdered. He truly was an innocent man but the choices he made that faithful night put him in harms way. Did his murderer go to prison…yes double time. Did he mean to murder Kevin…yes, he took the knife his girlfriend gave him and stabbed Kevin in the heart. Putting him in the back seat of the car, went through his belongings, a shot gun was in the trunk, Kevin had been out hunting and fishing that day. The murderer drove to a drug house in Kevin’s car with Kevin in the back seat begging for his life. The murderer and his girlfriend abandoned the car with the keys in the ignition ,close enough to their house so they didn’t have to walk far and left him to bleed out.
If different choices were made on the murderers part he would never of gotten the sentences he did. He showed no remorse.
After watching the neighborhood I grew up in degrade into drug dealing and drive-by shootings, I can sympathize with Mr. Zimmerman in wanting to protect his home and family, and consider after REPEATED calls by Mr. Zimmerman to law enforcement the police had probably become apathetic to his cause.
Following someone isn’t illegal, as far as I’ve heard, but assaulting someone IS.
I just wonder what kind of place this is if assaulting someone is seen as a perfectly reasonable reaction to being followed by Neighborhood Watch. Sounds like they really needed someone patrolling the area, if that’s the case.
x is the voice of reason once again.
Mary,
I really chafe at this “wannabe cop” epithet. I’d like to see someone call a volunteer fireman a “wannabe fireman”. If you followed the trial, Zimmerman gave up on being a cop after a rejection of some kind. He was considering being a lawyer’s aide.
People talk like GZ was stalking a “child” brandishing a gun. There’s a difference between being armed and “carrying”. A surprise punch or knife cut has the advantage over a holstered weapon.
The Martin family would be well-advised not to sue, because a lot more evidence would come out. If we psychoanalyze Zimmerman as a “wannabe cop” to explain his reputed over-zealousness, he will be allowed to explain Trayvon’s confrontational attitude with evidence of his being a “wannabe thug”.
Yes, both are harsh assessments. But GZ’s record will be compared to Trayvon’s. He was suspended for having tools (a screwdriver?) used for breaking into lockers. He was known to get into fights, as a friend messaged: “Why u always fightin’?”
I don’t understand the confusion about the yelps on the 911 call. They are of an adult with a slightly higher than average tone having the tar beaten out of him. Not of a croaky-voiced post-pubescent teenager confronted with a man brandishing a gun. Wouldn’t you be as quiet as a church mouse so as not to set off the guy pointing a gun at you? Who had the fight wounds? Listen and compare the voices.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/exclusive-audio-voice-trayvon-martin-19352398
I’m really just horrified by the lack of empathy you people have for dead teenagers, to be honest.
Who’s saying it wasn’t a tragedy for both families? A lot of people are just relieved that two wrongs didn’t occur.
A 28-yr-old man living in the neighborhood with a wife to protect sees some behavior he believes is suspicious. He calls the cops and then investigates with a loaded gun. He is confronted/confronts the suspicious character and shortly thereafter, neighbors hear at least 14 screams for help in 38 seconds, followed by a gunshot. The 28-year-old is then seen straddling the body of the other male. When cops arrive, they discover that the 28-yr-old has a bloody apparently broken nose lacerations on the back of his head. The shooting victim has a small laceration on his knuckle and dies of a gunshot wound (shot at 1-18in range). Witnesses claim to have seen Zimmerman on the ground crying for help while Martin attacked him.
On the other hand, a 17-year-old kid is walking home from the store. He is swerving through yards for whatever reason. He sees a man in a car watching him. He walks around the car and then runs away. Later, we learn that a friend on the phone heard him say that he had lost the man, and then he shows up suddenly. There is a confrontation, during which neighbors hear at least 14 screams in 38 seconds. The 17-year-old is shot and dies.
Quite frankly, aside from following Trayvon Martin (which it seems he stopped doing when so instructed by the dispatcher), and bringing his gun, Zimmerman’s behavior is exactly what I would hope for in a neighborhood watch coordinator. I do think he probably was hyper-sensitive and profiling to an extent when he saw Martin walking through yards, but I also think that he did right to call the cops. His mistake was in getting frustrated and in leaving the car with a gun to follow the young man.
We cannot know what would have happened that night if George Zimmerman had left his gun in his vehicle, or at home. Perhaps no one would have died. Perhaps he would have been beaten to death. Perhaps he would not have had the rash and misplaced courage to follow Martin. What we can know is that the burden of proof in this case was on the prosecution, and they failed to build a convincing story. Zimmerman was within his rights to carry a gun, and there is not substantial evidence-at least not presented-that his intent was anything beyond self-defense.
It seems both of the individuals in this instance were running too heavily on emotions, and I don’t necessarily believe that Zimmerman should get off scot-free, but doesn’t it seem like there was a bit of a dog-and-pony show created unnecessarily by our media and even our President over Martin’s race?
I am curious, though: what person would allow another to scream “help” 14 times and THEN shoot him? It seems like a really STUPID murder plan. Given the witness accounts, the two black eyes, closed fracture of the nose, bruising on his face, lacerations to his head, and minor back injury, and the number of times the voice screamed for help, I’m greatly inclined to believe it must have been Zimmerman.
I’m with X-girl.
Why isn’t black on white a racial hate crime?
Zimmerman Creepy Cracker Racist video (mild profanity)
We’re all saddened by Trayvon’s death Jack. But we’re saddened just as much for every black young male killed by another member of the black community. And we’re saddened just as much for every white person killed by a member of the black community. And we’re saddened just as much for every white person killed by a member of the white community.
Let’s work to stop all violent crime. Let’s not pick and choose what violent crimes we want to get passionate about and protest based on race. All crimes of this nature are hate crimes, black, white, Hispanic, Asian…
There are a lot kids both pre-born and born that die suddenly and tragically at the hands of another person. Innocent children are being killed every day. Where is the media hype about their lives? Where is their court drama played out for all to watch? Where is the public outrage? When are we as country going to say enough is enough?
All their lives meant something too. Each and every life is precious; that is what the right to life is about. Unfortunately, what we have seen in the last 40 years is a cheapening of life, something to be disposed of when the other person does not suit our purpose.
MaryRose, I don’t think that everyone who is “anti-Zimmerman” thinks he’s a murderer. I certainly don’t, I think he’s someone who made some huge mistakes that led to someone’s death.
I think Murder Two would have been a huge miscarriage of justice, Involuntary Manslaughter or Reckless Endangerment would have been far more appropriate.
I am disturbed by the implication that in my state, where my kids live, that someone can follow someone in the dark (and no one can deny that is what started the whole thing) and shoot them when the person being followed (rightly or wrongly) believes they are defending themselves, and there’s nothing legally wrong with that. It’s not responsible gun ownership to do things like this and I regret that it’s legal.
I do wish Zimmerman the best and hope that he uses this experience for good.
Hi x,
Unless you have a death wish or want to get into legal hot water, I would strongly advise you not follow anyone. This can be perceived as a threat or aggression by the person being followed.
I don’t fault GZ for doing his civic duty. Its when he left his vehicle with a loaded weapon to follow someone he thought suspicious that he played cop and created an unnecessary tragedy.
Hi Hans,
When the FD advises you to get out of a burning building and stay out, are they not advising you to leave fire fighting to the professionals and not play wannabe fireman? The volunteer firefighter is trained and authorized to fight fires. GZ was not trained and authorized to act as a cop.
Neighborhood watch has the following rules:
1. NO weapons
2.NO confrontations, and that includes following.
They observe and report only and leave police work to the professionals.
Its to prevent tragedies such as the GZ/TM situation.
When you take it upon yourself to follow someone you think is suspicious and carrying a loaded gun, you’re playing policeman, i.e. a wannabe cop.
Jack,
Seems to me though that Martin was a victim of his own Reckless Endangerment (circling the car, walking through yards, and of course, beating on Zimmerman) as he was a victim of Zimmerman’s. The whole story is sad and upsetting, for both parties, and a person’s life was ended, which should be acknowledged and mourned. I think that Zimmerman facing Reckless Endangerment would be appropriate, but I also don’t think that we should forget the risks Martin was taking. When a teenage girl dies in a drunk driving accident, we mourn and are saddened by her death, but we do not forget her responsibility in the circumstances, even if the other person was on the phone and driving in the wrong lane. In this case, Zimmerman was “on the phone and in the wrong lane,” but in attacking GZ, Trayvon Martin was the drunk driver. He wouldn’t have probably gotten into the accident if GZ had been driving responsibly, but that doesn’t mean he’s blameless for what happened.
Hi Mary Rose,
You “believe”, you don’t know it was Zimmerman. My whole point. As for his injuries I have seen far more serious ones in barroom brawls and both parties walked away alive. Also, the witness saw that TM had the upper hand, not who initiated the confrontation. Was there pushing and shoving, verbal threats, did GZ swing first and miss? We don’t know.
Had GZ stuck to the above mentioned rules of NW, that would have been the end of the story. When he took it upon himself to play policeman is when a senseless tragedy, which I believe has been played for and exploited for all it is worth, despicably so, by both sides, began.
Hi Jack 2:05PM
Very eloquently put. Thank you.
I think the worst thing GZ is guilty of is playing cop and finding himself in over his head. I don’t believe he is a cold blooded killer and I don’t believe TM “asked” for what he got. Its a senseless tragedy and why, unless we are facing a life and death situation, we leave police work to the professionals.
Our hearts go out to the families. So many lives have been devastated.
Mary,
I’ve tried to be clear that I believe and don’t know for sure what the events were. I think it would be quite difficult to explain the circumstances if TM was calling for help, especially considering that the extent of Martin’s injuries were the shot in the chest and a laceration on his hand. I’ve said before and I’ll say again that GZ made mistakes-getting out of his car, particularly with a loaded gun, being the most notable. I still don’t see in the evidence presented that he should have been charged with anything near what they were trying for, and I think that anyone upset in the way the case was handled needs to take it up with the prosecution, not GZ.
I think what bothers me the most about all of this, though, is the bloodthirst from those who feel like TM’s rights were infringed upon (they quite possibly WERE infringed upon, but I am talking about those who take it up as an angry battle-cry). I feel like this hungering for “justice” at the expense of any sense of peace or rehabilitation is what really has damaged our “justice system.” I’m not saying justice shouldn’t be served. I’m saying that the particular phrase “justice must be served” is used to legitimize terrible things within and outside of our legal system, and I think that as long as we are reacting in anger and indignation, we will keep ourselves in this downward spiral of hurt and abuse.
Wouldn’t you be as quiet as a church mouse so as not to set off the guy pointing a gun at you?
I’ve had a gun held to my head and I held more still and was more quiet than a statue of a church mouse. I really think if I had made a peep, he would have shot me.
Hi MaryRose 2:19PM
Circling a car. Again was TM brandishing a gun? Did he threaten to vandalize the vehicle? He left. Cutting through yards? At worst trespassing or maybe just taking a shortcut in the rain to his destination.
Or it could be an escaped armed convict that you’re following who doesn’t want any witnesses.
Let the police do their job.
Prax 2:32PM
Or if you’re in a fight with someone and suddenly realize he has a gun or see him pulling it out of his pocket, you could very well scream in terror. Maybe that was TM screaming and why.
Mary,
You are SO right. I totally said, “Don’t wait for the police. Run after him!” and “Trayvon Martin totally got what he deserved.”
Gimme a break, I’m on your side. I’m just not willing to demonize GZ for his actions. He made some rash decisions that led to very unpleasant circumstances. He will live with that forever. Whatever the reason, a young man is dead and another is damaged. The prosecution pursued the wrong judgment and they failed. Love and peace must prevail, not revenge.
Hi Mary Rose,
I think this tragedy has been exploited by all sides and the trial turned into a circus. As a parent I try to put myself in the place of Trayvon’s parents, though of course I can’t even begin to know what they live with or understand their anguish. My son was no saint either. He has turned into an outstanding adult. This tragic situation makes me thankful he had the opportunity to grow into one.
Hi Mary Rose 2:40PM
Would you please show me the quote you take offense at?
Thank you.
Mary,
It is true that this was a tragedy, and I am sorry for the loss of the life of Trayvon Martin. Hopefully his peers will see the errors he made and try to avoid them. Hopefully people in neighborhood watches and with a penchant for “taking things into their own hands” will see Zimmerman’s actions and the results and think twice before, as you say, “playing cop.” Hopefully we as a nation can stop turning this into a 3-ring-circus and can start treating it as an avoidable tragedy and can allow the families to grieve and learn from this in peace and without our constant intervention.
MaryRose,
Okay, I’ve actually been in that area before and there are public pathways for the purpose of walking by those yards, which has been reported is what Martin was walking on. He wasn’t doing anything wrong by walking that way.
And about circling the car and other things he may or may not have been doing while being followed, can you seriously blame him? You’re a woman, if a strange man was following you in a car and then by foot in the dark what would you do? I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t meekly stand there and let him catch up to you and ask him what is going on. That’s why I think that Zimmerman should have gotten Reckless Endangerment or Involuntary Manslaughter, I think it’s ridiculous to think that people can act as threatening as they want (and following someone at night is threatening behavior, especially for a grown man to do, no matter how noble his intentions may have been) and then claim they were in fear for their life. It scares me as a Floridian that this is considered legally okay. (I know this isn’t what you’re saying, but a lot of the rhetoric I have seen has been along this line and I honestly find it scary).
The only thing that I see Martin doing wrong is attacking Zimmerman. If he was that scared he should have ran or punched Zimmerman once or twice, knocking him down, and ran off to call the police and hid. But getting into a violent altercation when you’re already scared it’s difficult to moderate your behavior especially as an inexperienced and young person (which is why I don’t think Zimmerman deserves Manslaughter rather than Involuntary Manslaughter or something, he was scared too and I doubt he wanted to kill anyone). Teens aren’t adults, and Zimmerman was the adult in this situation so I’m always going to hold him more responsible.
I agree with the fear people have towards the violent blood-thirty rage towards Zimmerman, but the rhetoric towards Martin is just as bad if not worse. Just browse some conservative sites and see the blatantly racist and nasty comments. Fact is this case got horribly polarized and both sides are responsible for that. It shouldn’t have been a race issue in the first place. I got hassled a lot in that area when I was around there, not because of my race because I just look like a white dude, but because I was a young male running around after dark, and to be fair a lot of the time I was up to no good. But both sides latched onto the case for political reasons and I find it rather tragic.
“Hopefully people in neighborhood watches and with a penchant for “taking things into their own hands” will see Zimmerman’s actions and the results and think twice before, as you say, “playing cop.””
But why would they learn anything? There’s no legal consequences, and honestly if Trayvon were white this case wouldn’t have seen any media attention, so they don’t even have to worry about public censure as long as anyone who gets hurt is white or somewhat white-looking like Zimmerman. That’s what I don’t like, as someone who actually lives in the state and has to deal with the consequences of this, is that really, a lot of people down here seem to be taking it as this redneck “lets take back our neighborhoods from the thugs!!!” rather than “this was tragic and we should have a serious conversation about what it means to be a responsible gun owner and how we can protect our streets without causing things like this”.
Mary,
It was just the way you were hammering on the same subjects that got under my skin.
“Let the police do their job.”
“GZ is guilty of is playing cop”
“You “believe”, you don’t know it was Zimmerman.” (I had stated this pretty clearly and didn’t need it reiterated for me)
“ he took it upon himself to play policeman”
“When you take it upon yourself to follow someone you think is suspicious and carrying a loaded gun, you’re playing policeman, i.e. a wannabe cop.”
It just seems like you’re trying to make an argument that no one is debating anymore. Han had a little bit of a statement about it, and I think it was primarily a defense of GZ as not actually pursuing the individual with the intent to do anything. None of us were in his head, but we can listen to the call and look at the evidence and try to understand what occurred. I just got sick of being reminded that GZ was “playing cop”… from what I can tell, he was frustrated and went to find out where this guy went because he was sick of people breaking into houses and getting away with it. That was brash. But when he was instructed to return to his car, he seemed to genuinely take the direction. I don’t think he meant to confront TM but I can’t say either way. Regardless, he was pretty injured when the cops arrived. I’m so sorry that a young man died. I just don’t think that young man was blameless. He certainly didn’t deserve to be shot, but neither does Zimmerman deserve some of the public attacks he’s gotten.
Maybe a part of my problem is that I don’t spend tons of time on conservative websites and I live in a very very liberal area where a ton of the response I see is from those who believe Zimmerman should get a life sentence for an unfortunate judgment call. I’m not seeing a lot of “Trayvon Martin deserved it” types of comments, posts, or people. Perhaps I would be less inclined to defend Zimmerman if I saw more of that.
As for what I would do if I were in TM’s shoes, I would have called the cops. No question. I would have stayed in well-lit areas to begin with because, as a young woman, I am always concerned for my safety. And I would have called non-emergency and told them where I was and that a scary man was staring at me in his car. I would NOT have circled his car if I were concerned about my well-being. That seems slightly predatory to my mind-at least a little threatening. I would also NOT have called a friend my age and told her that some creepy a** dude was following me. If it was frightening to me, I would have turned to someone with greater power/authority than myself: cops and then parents. I would NOT have stayed in the dark areas, but tried to stay under as many streetlights as possible. And after I had called cops and then parents, I would have 911 all prepped to call on my phone. I probably would have also had my keys between my knuckles to jab at any attackers if that became a concern.
But then, I’m a girl. We are aware from a young age that everyone else is a threat, especially every man. I have been in situations where I had 911 prepped on my phone many many times (every time I walked across campus in the dark, in fact).
Jack,
Perhaps you’re right about the consequences. I’m seeing someone who tried to defend himself and nearly got Murder 2 for it. Sure, he made some serious mistakes, but once he was in the confrontation, we can’t really know what his errors were. He was being beaten. He was clearly losing-big time-and it seems that he was likely screaming for help and none was coming. Should he continue to allow the beating? What if, as he claims, Martin saw his gun and threatened his life? What and where is the line?
Yes, we should definitely and without question be discussing appropriate and safe gun handling. Honestly, this is where the NRA’s voice belongs, stating that these sorts of tragedies are avoidable with proper gun ownership, but they are too scared to stand up against ever not having a gun on you at all, if because of their own paranoia or because of the pushing to over-regulate gun ownership, or for whatever reason. This is where responsible organizations should indeed be discussing what is and is not acceptable behavior in these situations. All I’m seeing, where I am and at the websites I have pursued about this, is the cry about racism and the PD as well as Zimmerman being racist a-holes who need to be punished for their hatred of black people and for daring to allow the death of a minority. Which is becoming a tired and overused argument.
Hi Mary Rose,
I was addressing different people and the points they brought up. Hans had an issue with something I said and I addressed that.
Mary Rose 3:16PM
Sure TM should have called the cops. But again does an adult always think and act rationally when they are frightened, much less a kid? Was there even a well lit area for him to be in? Do we know that TM attacked GZ? Maybe GZ started the confrontation. I just see so much conflicting evidence and possiblities and with only one side of the story, we are left to speculate. But the verdict is what it is.
BTW, my brother gave me a good pointer for if you think you are being followed. A woman he knew realized a man was walking behind her as she walked home so she suddenly raised up her arm and called out “hey Joe, I’m over here!” to some non existent entity. The man following her quickly disappeared. “Joe” could have been some 6’4” 300lb foul tempered warehouseman for all he knew! Very quick thinking on that lady’s part, and it worked!
Well, yeah, that’s one difference between males and females, is that males are taught from a young age that you defend yourself physically from threats and if you don’t you’re a “p**sy” or something similar, which I think is probably part of the reason Martin chose to fight instead of run or call the police. My point was, no one would have trouble seeing Zimmerman’s behavior as inappropriate and threatening if the person he was following was female (and I really doubt anyone would judge her for reacting physically if she were able, maybe had a baseball bat or something), and I honestly don’t see how it’s less inappropriate or threatening because Trayvon was male, especially since he wasn’t an adult and he was unarmed.
Actually I think that there wasn’t much Zimmerman could do besides what he did once he put himself in the position to get his butt kicked. Though from his injuries that doesn’t seem like a remotely serious beating at all, I assume that he’s not acclimated to violence and was probably terrified. I don’t blame him for shooting once he was there, I just wish Zimmerman defenders (not you, but the gazillions I have talked to) would get that he’s not a hero, he’s a person who made stupid, stupid decisions and his behavior should not be emulated, ever. Just like I think people need to have conversations with their teen sons and tell them there is no shame in running away or calling the police if someone’s following you, you don’t have to be a tough guy and confront them.
I agree about the racism thing for the most part, but I will say that a lot of “anti-Martin” people are exceedingly, blatantly racist from what I have seen around here. Though I don’t believe Zimmerman and the cops were being racially motivated in their actions, I don’t think there’s any evidence for that, I have seen my fill of disgusting comments from Zimmerman’s defenders that I can get where the angry people are coming from. Those people are certainly latching onto the case just as bad as the black activists are.
The NRA isn’t a responsible organization in my humble opinion (I’m a gun owner, so I’m not just bashing on their stance that guns need to be legal). What we really need is people discussing how to keep your streets safer with or without weapons, and people really need to understand that having a gun doesn’t mean you have to use it, or that it’s generally a good idea to patrol the streets with a loaded weapon because you saw someone you didn’t recognize.
I’m sympathetic to people who live in high crime areas who are blown off by police who just don’t feel like doing their jobs.
I think if the world had more Zimmermans, there’d be fewer Martins. Not because they’d be dead, but because they’d realize acting like a rutting stag defending his territory is a good way to get themselves there, and they’d be expected to act more civilly, more intelligently, instead of people just throwing up their hands saying, “Oh well, kids will be kids.”
Kids will hold themselves to the standards set by them for their authority figures. If they have no standards, they’ll behave themselves like they have no standards, and the whole world suffers for it.
I don’t see why turning around, saying, “Hey, can I help you with something?” to the person following you, and settling things like humans instead of animals is seen as so gosh-darned revolutionary and unexpected.
Uh huh. Zimmerman called the cops over things like “there’s a car going slowly” or “a garage door is partially open”. You ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? Seemed apt here.
I have less than zero respect for the point of view that Zimmerman did nothing wrong and that Martin was 100% at fault for his own death when, let’s not forget, Zimmerman created the situation in the first place. Zero respect, and it saddens me when otherwise rational people would believe something like that.
Following kids walking (legally) at night while carrying a loaded weapon isn’t the way to fix youth crime or the socialization that boys, especially black boys, receive that tells them that physically attacking someone is the way to deal with a threatening situation.
“Kids will hold themselves to the standards set by them for their authority figures.”
The standard that following people at night is fine and dandy? That’s not a standard I’ll set for my kids.
“I don’t see why turning around, saying, “Hey, can I help you with something?” to the person following you, and settling things like humans instead of animals is seen as so gosh-darned revolutionary and unexpected.”
Where did Zimmerman say “Hey, kid, I’m not trying to scare you but we’ve had a lot of burglaries and the police are on the way because I called them. I’m not going to hurt you”? Is that revolutionary, to expect that if you are going to follow someone at night that you let them be aware of your intentions?
Following kids walking (legally) at night while carrying a loaded weapon isn’t the way to fix youth crime or the socialization that boys, especially black boys, receive that tells them that physically attacking someone is the way to deal with a threatening situation.
Here’s to hoping that common sense and the will to stay alive will one day overcome “socialization”, then.
I think wanting to keep your community safe is perfectly rational, thank you. I also think police have a responsibility to investigate, especially in an area with a history of break-ins, even if they think it’s nothing. But I guess expecting the police to do their jobs is “irrational” now, too?
Is that revolutionary, to expect that if you are going to follow someone at night that you let them be aware of your intentions?
Not if you think they’re dangerous, or going to commit a crime. And, whaddaknow, but a crime WAS committed by Mr. Martin (assault is illegal!), so Zimmerman must have been on to something.
Or if you’re in a fight with someone and suddenly realize he has a gun or see him pulling it out of his pocket, you could very well scream in terror.
Your right. I was just stating how I reacted. Frozen stiff. Paralyzed with fear. I also have witnessed a drunk pull out a gun in a tavern and point it at a group of about ten people. Every one of them dropped to the floor without making a vocal sound. It’s my gut feeling, experience and just my opinion that when a lethal weapon is pulled out in real life, people become quieter rather than louder but I would be interested in hearing other’s experiences and thoughts.
The only thing that I see Martin doing wrong is attacking Zimmerman.
But that is a BIG thing. What is that saying about living by the sword?
I like X’s comment: I just wonder what kind of place this is if assaulting someone is seen as a perfectly reasonable reaction to being followed by Neighborhood Watch. Sounds like they really needed someone patrolling the area, if that’s the case.
Hi X,
I see your point but the police didn’t blow off GZ. A car was on the way. I’m all for Zimmermans…. who follow the rules of neighborhood watch.
As for asking the person following you, that would depend on who that person is.
My brother teaches criminal justice and his favorite example of what every neighborhood should have is “Mrs.L.” who was a lady in the neighborhood we grew up in. Sure, you’d think she was the typical nosy, bothersome, opinionated old biddy who should mind her own business instead of everyone else’s. Gladys Kravitz on “Bewitched” could have learned a thing or two from Mrs.L. However, anything out of the ordinary in the neighborhood never escaped her attention. A new paper boy? What’s your name, where are you from and what happened to the old one? The moving van in front of the house. Mrs.L knew those neighbors weren’t moving, they were on vacation. She called the police. A stranger in the neighborhood? Mrs. L observed, she didn’t follow or carry a weapon, and made sure everyone knew. My brother tells his class that if our communities were full of “Mrs.Ls”, and every neighborhood had at least one, the crime rate would drop dramatically!
” Not if you think they’re dangerous, or going to commit a crime. And, whaddaknow, but a crime WAS committed by Mr. Martin (assault is illegal!), so Zimmerman must have been on to something.”
Oh okay, so Zimmerman was perfectly within his rights to follow Martin because he assumed he was dangerous, and this assumption makes it 100% okay to do this without announcing his intentions.
But Martin (the teenager, not the adult) was at fault for not talking to the man who was following him in the dark. Why does Martin not get the same leeway? He’s automatically at fault when a grown man can’t even have the foresight to realize following people is a good way to cause a bad situation? What were you saying about examples for kids again?
Hi Prax,
I can’t imagine a gun to my head and if someone ordered me to keep quiet, believe me I would. Its likely what kept you alive! Maybe in the course of the fight TM realized GZ had a gun and if he lets the guy go he could be dead. Or maybe he was just screaming for someone to help end the fight. No clue, just speculation but something that strikes me as plausible. IMO there’s just too much that doesn’t add up.
” I think wanting to keep your community safe is perfectly rational, thank you. I also think police have a responsibility to investigate, especially in an area with a history of break-ins, even if they think it’s nothing. But I guess expecting the police to do their jobs is “irrational” now, too?”
All right, let’s all patrol the streets with loaded weapons then. Let’s ask Detroit, DC, etc, how vigilantism and “taking care of your neighborhood” is working out for them now.
The police did investigate Zimmerman’s calls.
Hi X 4:15PM
The fact that someone is dangerous or about to commit a crime is precisely the reason you should NOT take it upon yourself to follow anyone. What if this person has an unseen accomplice? GZ says TM attacked him. How do we know for certain who started the fight? Could TM have struck GZ in self defense?
I can’t believe the lack of respect for human life I see out of pro-lifers for those who have possibly committed crimes or aren’t one of the “good people”. It’s like the people who justify prison rape because “they’re criminals anyway”. And it’s not having the effect that people like to think it does. If people feel as though their lives are worthless then they act accordingly.
All of this regardless of the fact that Martin has a clean criminal record, and regardless of whatever issues he had at school (common problems, and I don’t know many teenagers who have never had any trouble with experimenting with pot and such) that night it’s never even been claimed that he was doing anything illegal until he attacked someone for following him.
And I love how Zimmerman is a paragon of virtue with prior domestic violence accusations, and resisting a police officer (bargained down from the felonies of resisting a police officer with violence and battery of a police officer). Not to bash on Zimmerman, because like I said I think he’s a normal guy who did some stupid stuff, but to act like Martin was this violent thug and Zimmerman was just a sweet family guy defending his streets is deliberately misconstruing the situation.
Zimmerman called the cops over things like “there’s a car going slowly” or “a garage door is partially open”. You ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? Seemed apt here.
Neighborhood Watch means exactly that. How is watching out for the neighborhood’s safety crying wolf?
Aren’t you a security guard, Jack?
” Neighborhood Watch means exactly that. How is watching out for the neighborhood’s safety crying wolf?
Aren’t you a security guard, Jack? ”
I was being a bit sarcastic, Xalisae was acting like the Sanford police were ignoring calls of people being witnessed breaking into houses, when the truth is something quite different. Regardless of that, the police did and had been investigating Zimmerman’s calls, including the night that Martin died. Police officers are not magicians, and can’t always get to the scene right away, especially if there are higher priority cases going on and limited officers to handle them all.
I used to be a security guard, I manage and do maintenance on a apartment complex now. When I see people I don’t recognize I don’t follow them in the middle of the night, and I didn’t when I did security either. Security guards and Neighborhood Watch captains are not cops.
I don’t know many teenagers who have never had any trouble with experimenting with pot
It is actually a low percentage of teens who have experimented with pot to say nothing of being in trouble with it. At least that is what the anonymous questionnaires taken by teens show in my state. It may be higher in Florida but I am still guessing way less teens have tried pot and gotten into to trouble as a result than vice-versa.
Security guards and Neighborhood Watch captains are not cops.
Right, but they should still be concerned with open garage doors and cars driving suspiciously.
” Right, but they should still be concerned with open garage doors and cars driving suspiciously.”
Right, and if that happened around a place that I was providing security for I’d call my boss and the cops, as per protocol. I would not investigate suspicious characters (and I was an armed security guard) because I was not a cop, and law enforcement is for thing like that, not Watch captains or security guards. The only time I would be in an altercation myself if someone was actively trying to vandalize or break into a place I was providing security for, and even then, the rules are that if they run off you don’t follow, you call the police before confronting them and if they leave you stay where you’re at and do not pursue, just note where they go the best you can and try to provide a good description to law enforcement. Zimmerman seems to fancy himself a protector, but the way he went about things was honestly looking for trouble and I’m surprised he never got hurt or hurt anyone else before this.
” It is actually a low percentage of teens who have experimented with pot to say nothing of being in trouble with it. At least that is what the anonymous questionnaires taken by teens show in my state. It may be higher in Florida but I am still guessing way less teens have tried pot and gotten into to trouble as a result than vice-versa.”
I think nationwide there was a high of 40% in the nineties and it’s declined to about 1 in 5, but don’t quote me on that. I don’t consider that uncommon. Something like half of teens abuse alcohol at least once before they leave high school, too, according to some reports. Regardless, these “bad” kids who have been in trouble for stuff like this don’t suddenly become less important and precious than good kids.
But I will admit my view on teenagers is probably skewed because the only ones I have been around came from much less ideal circumstances and had more issues than the average teen probably. Regardless, treating them like Zimmerman treated Martin isn’t going to fix that.
All right, let’s all patrol the streets with loaded weapons then. Let’s ask Detroit, DC, etc, how vigilantism and “taking care of your neighborhood” is working out for them now.
Actually, I think that if Detroit and DC were more permissive in their weapons rights laws, and more people carried legally, the crime rates there would be significantly lower. At the least eventually would lower. Do you think Mr. Martin would’ve been so quick to assault Mr. Zimmerman if he knew that Zimmerman was probably armed?
Dad always told us kids that fighting is not necessarily wrong in and of itself. The circumstances of the fight have a lot to do with justification for the fight, and all that surrounds the issue at hand.
One thing he made absolutely CERTAIN we knew, though, was to never, ever, EVER throw the first punch. Ever. And now, I can see why he was so insistent.
Wow, that site that Ed H linked has some exceedingly racist commenters. I don’t agree with the concept of Hate Crime Legislation, but seriously. “Jungle monkeys”, “should go back to Africa” (like they’ve ever been there), “white people should be afraid of all black people”, “sub-human fresh sewage”, murderers being called the “cream of the crop of the black community”, and “maybe it’s time to bring back the KKK”.
What a cesspool. And people are surprised when there are racial divides? Makes “cracker” look like a compliment.
“Actually, I think that if Detroit and DC were more permissive in their weapons rights laws, and more people carried legally, the crime rates there would be significantly lower. At the least eventually would lower. Do you think Mr. Martin would’ve been so quick to assault Mr. Zimmerman if he knew that Zimmerman was probably armed? ”
Are you joking? This is Florida. Florida. It’s pretty dang easy to get a gun legally or not and it’s best to assume that everyone is armed. We don’t have magazine capacity restrictions, we have lax concealed carry and open carry laws, and we don’t require licensing and registration for owning guns. This is one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve seen on this issue. I don’t think our gun laws could be anymore lax and have been for the entire time I’ve been aware of them.
“Dad always told us kids that fighting is not necessarily wrong in and of itself. The circumstances of the fight have a lot to do with justification for the fight, and all that surrounds the issue at hand.
One thing he made absolutely CERTAIN we knew, though, was to never, ever, EVER throw the first punch. Ever. And now, I can see why he was so insistent.”
Actually, I agree, people shouldn’t throw the first punch, as I’ve said a million times, unless Trayvon was in genuine fear for his life (as in Z threatened him or something which I doubt he did), he should have ran away, or even punched him once and ran away. That was his bad.
I hope your Dad also taught you to not follow people through the night with a weapon as well.
I just don’t know how people can have such little empathy for a dead teenager and his family. I don’t care about the case anymore, honestly, I’m just sick of how terrible people are being about it.
Amen, Jack.
Rest in peace, Tray.
Mary,
Listen to the audio tape. You can’t really believe that’s someone screaming for a minute because a guy has a gun. That’s someone in pain.
I’ve seen plenty of fights where the first punch leaves the other helpless, especially when the pummeling continues while being flat on the back. I saw one fight where a head was smashed on the asphalt. That sickening thud was my signal to leave.
Zimmerman is playing cop plus he’s a wuss? What’s the point of carrying a weapon except that it’s there JUST IN CASE. This turned out to be that case.
And he followed from a distance. Does anyone believe Trayvon couldn’t outrun him?
This is not a case of someone from Neighborhood Watch WATCHING THE NEIGHBORHOOD. It’s about this tough-guy attitude of our youth always on the lookout for being “dissed”.
Hi Hans,
I’ve heard the tape and I hear someone screaming in terror or pain. I don’t know which and I don’t know who, only that it is horrible. A lot of my questions would be put to rest if I knew.
Absolutely one punch can take someone out and I have no doubt that’s exactly what TM did. However, that doesn’t mean he started the fight. Could there have been pushing and shoving, a verbal exchange, threats? Could GZ have swung first, missed, and TM swung back? We have only GZ’s word. I’m not saying he’s lying, I’m saying Idon’t know both sides of the story and I wasn’t there.
Where did I say he’s a wuss? Carrying a weapon doesn’t mean that you take it upon yourself to follow someone while armed. That’s the job of law enforcement.
He followed from a distance? Well obviously TM saw him. Do you know how much of a distance? Do you know the extent of the following? Again, only GZ’s word.
Sorry Hans, we usually agree but not this time. Watching the neighborhood is one thing, getting out of your vehicle or home to investigate while armed is a whole different story.
Also Hans, since when is a tough guy attitude anything new? Certainly you remember the “greasers” of our era, teenage boys who loved to look and act like “hoods” in their leather jackets, pointed shoes, ducktail haircuts, tight jeans, cigarettes, cursing, troublemaking, hot rods and swagger, my brother(the future cop) included.
“This is not a case of someone from Neighborhood Watch WATCHING THE NEIGHBORHOOD. It’s about this tough-guy attitude of our youth always on the lookout for being “dissed”.”
If someone is being a “tough guy” in this case it’s not just Martin. I can’t think of a better definition of “tough guy swagger” than someone who thinks they have the right to follow people in the dark while armed with a loaded gun.
But who am I kidding, Zimmerman is perfect and innocent, a great defender of truth and justice. He didn’t do a single thing wrong, ever!
Hi Mary,
Well, I didn;t mean you called him a wuss, except that I think you did say the injuries weren’t that serious. Bob Beckel and Dr. Michael Baden apparently think GZ had nothing to fear.
All the evidence seems to support GZ’s story. I think speculating that he “asked for it” or took the first swing is just grasping at straws. He does not seem to have that kind of attitude, and Trayvon did.
I’m really sorry for what happened to Trayvon. He had a whole life to overcome some shaky teenage years. But it really looks like he was more at fault for what happened that night.
He undoubtedly knew nothing of the break-ins there. He didn’t know someone seeing him pass right by their back window would have raised an alarm. He dawdled in the dark and the rain, and Zimmerman probably couldn’t make out when he was on the phone.
There are many “ifs”. Staying in the car. Staying on the sidewalk. Don’t hang around on a dark, rainy night. If only George went to Target a minute before or after. If only Trayvon just went home.
A human tragedy. We are all fallible.
Jack,
You’re showing your youth. It’s not a good vs. evil case.
Zimmerman was not out of bounds in his voluntary job. He was mistaken that Trayvon might be a problem But should he have left his gun in the car? Would it have been more useful in Target? What did he have it for, if not for protection, just in case?
I’m not showing my youth, I used to carry a gun as part of my ACTUAL job, and I know that you don’t follow people with a loaded weapon, especially when you are on the phone with the authorities, who have it as their ACTUAL job to apprehend/follow the suspect and take care of the situation. Private citizens should not have the legal right to case properties not their own or that they are hired to protect, and I’m fearing that this verdict will cause more violence.
If I had chased down the idiot teens that I used to call the cops on from places I guarded and ended up getting beaten up and shooting one of them, I would consider myself the person responsible in that situation, regardless of their behavior beforehand. Responsible gun owners don’t follow people with a weapon unless it’s a situation like a woman being dragged off or a child being abducted, something of that nature. Not a vague sense of “he looks fishy, I’ll take my deadly weapon and follow him, nothing bad could happen out of this”. At the very least Zimmerman could have been a man and identified himself if he wanted to follow someone at night.
I really don’t believe any of you would react calmly and maturely at that age being followed, and I am having trouble believing that there are people that find Zimmerman’s actions completely justified.
I don’t think it’s “good versus evil”, I think it’s “normal dude making stupid decisions to follow someone with a weapon based on his experiences” versus “teenager scared from someone following him at night and making a stupid decision to react with violence rather than calling the cops or running”
Hi Hans,
I’m just giving an opinion on his injuries based on injuries I have seen. Scalp wounds bleed profusely, often looking worse than they are. To me his wounds looked very superficial with minimal bleeding and even his face did not look that battered. He looks to me like a guy that got decked and fell, hitting his head or maybe scraped up his head in an altercation. Having one’s head “bashed” on concrete would have me concerned about concussion and possible skull fractures. As far as I know GZ wasn’t even checked out for any of this. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
I’m only pointing out Hans that the fight may have started in a number of ways. I have no clue who started it, only GZ’s word. TM isn’t here to give his side and I wasn’t there. What people “seem” to have isn’t a very good basis for making any judgments. People can fool us. TM’s “attitude”? Good grief my teenage kids had attitudes. It proves nothing.
Again Hans we will have to disagree as to who was at fault. GZ, the adult with the gun decided to overstep his bounds. Jack is correct, responsible gunowners don’t take it upon themselves to follow people. I own a gun. I won’t hesitate to use it to defend myself should anyone enter my home illegally and endanger my life. I won’t take it upon myself to follow someone I think looks suspicious. Good grief you or I driving around trying to find our way in a strange neighborhood could look very suspicious to someone. It happens all the time. A little scary to think someone would take it upon themselves to follow us with a loaded weapon! If the police want to pull me over and question me fine. Someone I don’t recognize? Uh, no.
Yes there are a lot of ifs. There is another side to the story we will never know. A lot of unanswered questions. But mostly a completely avoidable senseless tragedy.
“Hi x,
Unless you have a death wish or want to get into legal hot water, I would strongly advise you not follow anyone. This can be perceived as a threat or aggression by the person being followed.”
Mary, I would strongly advise that you don’t talk about legal issues unless you’re an attorney (and if you are, you should up your malpractice insurance immediately) or at least have an idea what you’re talking about. X is right. You are wrong. Following someone from a distance can not be legally considered a threat. If you respond to it by assaulting the person following you, the only one who committed a crime is you.
It’s true that following someone can be dangerous (case in point), but George Zimmerman is the one who can decide if the risk to his safety is worth it.
Here’s the issue with this case. Prior to the fight, both Martin and Zimmerman had every legal right (and from my perspective moral right as well) to be doing exactly what they were doing. Walking through an apartment complex (even in a suspicious manner) is not illegal or immoral, and following someone (even if that’s unwise) is not illegal or immoral either. At some point a confrontation happened, and we know that Martin got the upper hand (b/c the physical evidence showed and the witness said that he was on top). There is zero evidence that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense. I don’t think Martin deserved to die or caused his own death, and I wish that something (anything) had gone differently that night so he would still be alive. But not every tragedy is a crime – even less so a prosecutable one.
“It happens all the time. A little scary to think someone would take it upon themselves to follow us with a loaded weapon!
You better leave the country. Lots of places allow concealed carry and even people carrying a weapon can legally follow you without being in any way in the wrong.
CT.
I wasn’t talking about what’s legal, I was talking about what’s safe. No its not illegal, I never said it was, but you have to admit CT that following someone can initiate a confrontation. Let’s say the person you’re following is mentally deranged, high on drugs and alcohol, or a criminal or just feels threatened by you, then its highly unlikely this person cares about what is legal. They just want you off their back and may resort to violence. For your own safety leave following to the police, that’s my point.
Its like confrontations. No it isn’t illegal to confront someone you don’t know, but police and self defense experts will strongly discourage it. I remember one self defense expert saying:
I have a black belt, I am a self defense expert. I DO NOT get into confrontations, I call the police. I think he’s talking common sense safety here CT, not legalities.
Yes GZ, in fact anyone can make the decision to follow someone. But one can end up in legal hot water like GZ did. CT my brother has trained and directed Neighborhood Watch for years. He says that two of the rules, no confrontations, which includes following, and no weapons, are for a reason. To prevent situations like GZ.
Whether or not there is zero evidence that GZ didn’t act in self defense is a matter of perspective. I don’t agree. Obviously everyone is not going to agree on every aspect of this case.
Yes people can legally follow you with a weapon CT, even though you’re minding your own business or circling around a neighborhood trying to find an address. Scary, isn’t it? Just hope they don’t take it upon themselves to assume you’re up to no good.
I agree Jack. I don’t think it was “good vs. evil”. I don’t believe this situation was “black vs. white” either but I think it was “stupid” vs. “stupid” on both of their parts. Tragically someone died, a young 17 year old died. I am truly sorry for Trayvon’s family.
What is also really tragic is some of the “Demon”crats, Black caucus members and radical, liberal, leftist who are ramping this up for political gain and to “shore up their political base” to get out the vote for 2014. Will people stop calling GZ a white man please. He is a Hispanic American just like BHO is an African American both have 1 white parent and one has an Hispanic mother (GZ) and one an African father (BHO), now all of a sudden he is not bi-racial but GZ is ”white” when they want to fan the flames of racism. There is a African American man in the White House (no racism is not totally dead) but BHO would not
NAACP needs to stand for innocent unborn black babies. What does Ryan Bomberger call them the National Association for the Abortion of Colored People?
I did not finish my 2nd to last sentence. I was trying to say “There is an African American man in the White House (no racism is not totally dead) but BHO would not be in the White House if things were not much better in this country.
Obama may be president, but I believe there is a long, long way to go. In my experience it seems as though racism has just become better hidden (which is better than lynching black men for whistling at white women, but we’re nowhere near racism being gone). If you give people a little anonymity you’ll get to see what people really think, and it’s not pretty.
I see your point Jack. But take it from an old lady who has seen a whole lot of changes in my lifetime we have come a very long way from where we started for there to be an African American sitting in the WH. We do have a long way to go and I believe unfortunately this president (the Nobel Peace Prize winner) could have done so much to help bring people together but he has elected to cause more divisiveness and has taken us backwards, it does not fit his ideology nor his political agenda, however killing unborn babies or born alive post-abortion survivors does.
Well yeah I was born in the late eighties so I didn’t see how things were, and I know we’ve come a long way. It just seems to me like people use that we come a long way thing to deny that racism still exists or that white or white-looking people have certain privileges. All the statistics confirm that we still have a lot of issues in that area.
But I do agree that Obama seems to fan the flames a bit rather than do things that might help. He could have chimed in on Gosnell and lamented the poor healthcare that minority women are disproportionately subjected to, he could work to reform drug laws that disproportionately target young black males and help harm the black community by creating a fatherless culture and cause a lot of damage. But no, he’s gotta God bless PP.
“CT. I wasn’t talking about what’s legal, I was talking about what’s safe. No its not illegal, I never said it was, but you have to admit CT that following someone can initiate a confrontation.”
Sure it can, Mary, but that doesn’t mean it’s never ok to follow someone. Since people seem to be so comfortable imagining alternate scenarios and running with them as if they actually happened, let’s imagine that Martin was armed and Zimmerman prevented him from breaking into a home. No one would be saying, man that guy should have stayed in his car. But he would have no way of knowing that when he began to follow. Hindsight is 20/20.
“They just want you off their back and may resort to violence. For your own safety leave following to the police, that’s my point.”
Yeah and decision about your safety if someone is going to turn aggressive is up to you.
“Its like confrontations. No it isn’t illegal to confront someone you don’t know, but police and self defense experts will strongly discourage it. I remember one self defense expert saying: I have a black belt, I am a self defense expert. I DO NOT get into confrontations, I call the police. I think he’s talking common sense safety here CT, not legalities.”
Who’s encouraging it, Mary? But like Xalise I have sympathy for people who are trying to keep their neighborhoods safe and I don’t think it’s so confrontational to follow someone from a distance to let the police know where they went.
“Yes GZ, in fact anyone can make the decision to follow someone. But one can end up in legal hot water like GZ did.”
Yeah, Mary, if you follow someone of the wrong color in the wrong political environment, you might end up in fabricated politically based legal hot water. But in any legitimate circumstance you wouldn’t, Mary.
“Whether or not there is zero evidence that GZ didn’t act in self defense is a matter of perspective. I don’t agree. Obviously everyone is not going to agree on every aspect of this case.”
What’s the evidence then, Mary? One piece of actual evidence. There is none b/c if there was, the prosecution would have presented it. Even their own witnesses couldn’t back them up and ended up sounding like defense witnesses.
“Yes people can legally follow you with a weapon CT, even though you’re minding your own business or circling around a neighborhood trying to find an address. Scary, isn’t it?”
Know what’s scarier, Mary? That the full force of government can be brought against you with no evidence, but just for the lowest political opportunism. I’ll take an armed citizenry over that any day.
“Just hope they don’t take it upon themselves to assume you’re up to no good.”
Assume away if they want. They have a right to assume what they want about me as long as they don’t go further. If Zimmerman was hunting Martin, stalking him and threatening him with a gun, wonder how he ended up on the cement end of a fight w/out his gun out., Mary.
Right, and if that happened around a place that I was providing security for I’d call my boss and the cops, as per protocol. I would not investigate suspicious characters.
Right, and I wouldn’t expect or support anyone who claimed that if you were beat up after following a suspicious person that your previous calls to your boss and the cops were just you crying wolf.
CT at July 15, 2013 at 9:21 pm and after summed it up well. While others are race-obseessed, some here seem to not like people having guns on their person. Apparently you must have it in a lockbox in your closet, not at hand when needed in SOME circumstances.
Also, what are neighborhood watch people allowed to do? Peep out their window once in a while? Was GZ also overstepping his bounds by visiting the woman who had a home invasion, giving her the numbers of he and his wife, and changing her lock?
When the dispatcher asks where did he go and what apartment he was hanging around, Zimmerman was a gun-toting predator for looking for the address and seeing if Trayvon was still around?
I’ve said they both made bad assumptions. If Trayvon had gone home and called 911 George would have been left embarrassed with the police. To deny GZ was beaten, that objectively, through logic and voice tone that he was yelping in pain, is disgusting.
The prosecution talked about assumptions. Their first and worst was that the screaming stopping at the gunshot meant it was Trayvon, when it was just as likely that it was because the then-victim was no longer being beaten.
Jack,
My jibe at your envious youth was really about accusing us of saying Zimmerman did no wrong. You just can’t convince me that he didn’t do less wrong. Following someone at a distance – a literal tortoise and the hare “chase” – can’t compare to cold-cocking and bashing your hapless “pursuer”.
And I don’t care if he had a bazooka lashed to his leg. Trayvon’s fighting experience (which he bragged about improving) was superior until Zimmerman could finally wriggle enough to stop the onslaught.
It was awful, but it was a clear case of self-defense.
Let the cops do their job? Zimmerman’s zealousness was related to the fact that the cops could not prevent robberies in his neighborhood. This is commonly the case. Cops can’t be everywhere.
The Zimmerman case is a federal show trial. Go to my blog and hear Al Sharpton say that the trial was not brought based on merit but on his organized protests. Scroll further down and ask why he and the NAACP are so uninterested in the carnage in Chicago and Detroit. Also check out the incompetence of the left who seek to foment a race war from the altercation between two mixed race individuals which resulted in tragedy. Zimmerman’s mama is Peruvian and his great grandfather is Black. Trayvon is also only partly Black.
I’m hoping that manipulation by the liars of the mainstream media fails in this case.
“While others are race-obseessed, some here seem to not like people having guns on their person. Apparently you must have it in a lockbox in your closet, not at hand when needed in SOME circumstances.”
Misconstruing our positions. Carrying a gun is fine. Following people at night, without announcing your intentions or attempting to make the situation safer (staying in the car, etc) with your gun is stupid. It may legally be self-defense, but you’ll never convince me Zimmerman didn’t cause this whole thing with his actions.
” My jibe at your envious youth was really about accusing us of saying Zimmerman did no wrong. You just can’t convince me that he didn’t do less wrong. Following someone at a distance – a literal tortoise and the hare “chase” – can’t compare to cold-cocking and bashing your hapless “pursuer”.”
You can’t convince me that an adult doesn’t have more maturity and knowledge and responsibility than a seventeen year old. And you don’t know how far behind he was following him, he certainly wouldn’t admit it if he were right up on him.
” And I don’t care if he had a bazooka lashed to his leg. Trayvon’s fighting experience (which he bragged about improving) was superior until Zimmerman could finally wriggle enough to stop the onslaught.”
Lulz, wasn’t Zimmerman trained as an MMA fighter? Outweighed Martin by almost thirty pounds? If you can’t fight then don’t create situations where you’re fighting, for goodness sake.
I love how Trayvon’s prior life is somehow evidence of his wrongdoing when George’s isn’t. Which one of them had a freaking restraining order for allegedly hitting a woman? Which one of them had a charge for resisting a police officer? Do any of you fine people have those kind of charges? If you’re going to bash on the teenager for being an idiot teenager and bragging about stupid stuff, then be fair and realize that Zimmerman was perhaps a hothead and not a 100% good neighborhood defender who was simply looking out for the community.
” To deny GZ was beaten, that objectively, through logic and voice tone that he was yelping in pain, is disgusting.”
This isn’t me bashing on Zimmerman, but I don’t know if maybe I’m just weird but those injuries always looked seriously minor to me. Couple scrapes on the head and a broken nose, I was hurt worse than that as a child! I’d rather have a broken nose than kill a human being to be honest. I’ve gotten in fights while armed as a teenager and I never pulled my gun or knife even when I was losing. I don’t really blame Zimmerman, he’s obviously not particularly acclimated to violence like I was and couldn’t handle it, but I don’t really feel bad for his horrific beating (obvious sarcasm).
It may legally be self-defense, but you’ll never convince me Zimmerman didn’t cause this whole thing with his actions.
You said up above, The only thing that I see Martin doing wrong is attacking Zimmerman.
Jack, some of your arguments are starting to sound like victim-blaming to me. ”Yeah, I beat him but look what he was doing first. He should have known better than to follow me.”
I have followed students (at a distance) that have had a melt-down in a classroom and stormed out. I follow them because their actions are out-of-the-ordinary and because I am looking out for the safety of other students and staff in the school. If a student ever turns on me and starts to beat me up and in the struggle, I cause their death, I don’t think it would be fair to say I caused the whole thing because of my actions.
Couple scrapes on the head and a broken nose, I was hurt worse than that as a child!
Now let’s downplay someone dishing out head injuries and breaking bones because we have survived worse.
I’d rather have a broken nose than kill a human being to be honest.
How far would a beating have to go before you would be okay with deadly force?
Okay that last comment was unfair of me, I wasn’t there and can’t really judge Zimmerman for freaking out when he realized he was in over his head. Not everyone has experience fighting. But I still think that people have a responsibility to try not to create situations that lead to violence, which include things like not following people at night with a weapon without announcing your intentions or something similar.
But I still think that people have a responsibility to try not to create situations that lead to violence, which include things like not following people at night with a weapon without announcing your intentions or something similar.
Victim-blaming.
It’s not victim blaming to admit that some situations are dangerous and have a high likelihood of turning into violence, and that if you decide to get into a dangerous situation you might have to deal with violence. That’s simply reality. If you don’t want to get hurt, attempt to be safe. That doesn’t mean the violence is okay or your fault even if you made stupid decisions, it means that everyone should try to be safe.
” How far would a beating have to go before you would be okay with deadly force? ”
Idk I’ve never used deadly force. I think people are misunderstanding me though, Zimmerman had the right to defend himself whether I think he could have been fine without using deadly force or not, I’m not saying that Martin’s death was murder. I am saying that he created the situation in the first place.
CT,
You need to take your nose out of a law book and look at the real world. Whether its “ok” to follow someone or not it not the point. In the real world there are very dangerous people who can react very violently to you following them, however noble your intentions. I saw on TV about a young beauty queen who was out with friends. Some speeding SUV hit her car and took off. Naturally she was irate, followed them, got the license number and, instead of sensibly calling it in and leaving it to the police, she continued to follow them. They pulled over, she pulled over, she walked up to them and they blew her head off. They had just knocked over a gun store and apparently didn’t want any witnesses reporting their license plate. So you see CT, yeah, I can see where she was irate and they were wrong to hit and run. And I hope you can see how dangerous following and confronting people we don’t know can be.
Sure let’s say TM was armed and GZ prevented him from breaking into a home. Let’s say GZ got killed doing it. Let’s say GZ accidentally shot an innocent bystander in the process. You see bullets that miss go somewhere, and that can include your front window. Let’s say he assumed TM was breaking and entering when he was just returning to his father’s home. Maybe people would agree this guy should have stayed in his car and let the police do their job.
Now if you want to play policeman be my guest. I’m just warning you it can be extremely dangerous. Following at a distance? Are you certain the person you’re following doesn’t have a few unseen accomplices that are following you with baseball bats? Are you sure that person isn’t going to turn on a dime and shoot you? Are you certain you won’t be taken as a hostage and your family endangered? You better think long and hard about playing policeman. In the real world there are a lot of people out there who aren’t going to respect your legal right to follow them.
As for GZ acting in self defense, maybe he did. I’m not convinced. But you can’t escape the fact he put himself into this situation when he left his vehicle with a loaded gun to follow someone. If TM did in fact attack him while he was outside of his car, then this is another example of how following someone and making yourself vulnerable can get you in a life and death situation. Since we know only one side of the story and TM will never have the opportunity to present his, then we are left to speculate on a lot of posibilities. Maybe GZ is being completely truthful. Maybe he’s not. We can never know.
Had GZ never left his vehicle and let the police do their job, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. That’s my whole point.
“ It may legally be self-defense, but you’ll never convince me Zimmerman didn’t cause this whole thing with his actions.”
You just summed up the entire legally baseless prosecution.
“If you’re going to bash on the teenager for being an idiot teenager and bragging about stupid stuff, then be fair and realize that Zimmerman was perhaps a hothead and not a 100% good neighborhood defender who was simply looking out for the community.”
I don’t see anyone bashing Martin here. He was a kid who did a dumb kid thing and the result was tragic. We’re only rejecting the suggestion that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car under all circumstances. In hindsight, it’s true that that would have prevented the death. So with the benefit of perfect hindsight (knowing that Martin was unarmed and assuming he wasn’t going to cause trouble) I wish Zimmerman had stayed in his car. But given his lack of hindsight in the moment, it is no moral failing on his part (the opposite in fact) to have followed Martin and certainly nothing that could be considered a provocation of the assault that resulted (legally or morally).
But I still think that people have a responsibility to try not to create situations that lead to violence, which include things like not following people at night with a weapon without announcing your intentions or something similar.
Victim-blaming.
Yes.
A new wrinkle to set people’s teeth on edge. In Jentel’s interview on CNN last night, she said she told Trayvon Zimmerman might be a pervert, and to run. As Rush Limbaugh pointed out (you may want to sit down), this could have been a case of mistaken gay-bashing.
Well, don’t explode. There have been many such beatings. Again, wrong assumptions happened throughout that night.
So if someone followed a woman around at night because he thought she was pretty and wanted to stare at her, and she freaked out and decided to mace him or hit him, would it be victim blaming to say that guy made a stupid decision and created a situation that got himself hurt? It might be legal to follow people because you find them attractive, but it’s stupid. It might be legal to follow someone because you find them suspicious, but it’s not a very good idea.
Well Hans,
That is certainly another good reason not to follow someone. Someone might think you’re a sexual predator. They might react violently and in what they think is self defense. Makes you wonder if following people can be dangerous.
In the real world there are very dangerous people who can react very violently to you following them, however noble your intentions.
Your right. And the rest of us with noble intentions are not surprised, shocked or upset when someone else with noble intentions shoots one of these very dangerous people in self defense.
It might be legal to follow people because you find them attractive, but it’s stupid. It might be legal to follow someone because you find them suspicious, but it’s not a very good idea.
Well it’s not legal to beat someone nor is it a very good idea to beat on someone. They might be packing.
I’m not saying that Martin’s death was murder. I am saying that he created the situation in the first place.
I’m not saying it wasn’t rape but she was awfully drunk and wearing a very short skirt. I am saying that she created the situation in the first place.
“You need to take your nose out of a law book and look at the real world. Whether its “ok” to follow someone or not it not the point.”
Really? b/c it’s all you’ve been talking about. I’ll ignore the rest of the snark b/c I’d rather base my opinions on principle than some nebulous emotionalism unsupported by the facts of the real situation.
Let’s look at your “points”
They boil down to this:
1. Following someone can create an unsafe situation for the follower. (see: ” In the real world there are a lot of people out there who aren’t going to respect your legal right to follow them.”)
Duly noted. I’m not advocating for people to follow people b/c it can end badly. BUT… That’s Zimmerman’s problem and his prerogative to undertake the risk to his safety if he wants. It’s not a confrontation. It’s not a provocation (legally or morally). It doesn’t justify any violent reaction on the part of the followed. So if your point here is to educate people that following someone can get them hurt, I support your PSA. If your point is to blame Zimmerman for the resulting confrontation, then go tell the beauty queen in your example that she caused her own death and that if she had been able to defend herself and kill her attacker, then she still would have been responsible, follower that she was.
2. Someone with a gun can behave recklessly and cause trouble : (see: “Sure let’s say TM was armed and GZ prevented him from breaking into a home. Let’s say GZ got killed doing it (a). Let’s say GZ accidentally shot an innocent bystander in the process . You see bullets that miss go somewhere, and that can include your front window (b). Let’s say he assumed TM was breaking and entering when he was just returning to his father’s home (c). Maybe people would agree this guy should have stayed in his car and let the police do their job.”)
The act of getting out of your car to follow says nothing about your recklessness in discharging your weapon (if you even have a weapon while committing the grave sin of “following”). All I’ll agree to in your journey into the imagination is this: Martin would be guilty of homicide in (a) and Zimmerman would have been guilty of it in (c) and potentially (b) depending on facts. That’s true regardless of whether “following” occurred prior to the events.
3. Zimmerman is responsible for how the events of the evening unfolded. (see: “But you can’t escape the fact he put himself into this situation when he left his vehicle with a loaded gun to follow someone.”)
This is your real point, and I totally reject it. If you follow someone (with or without a gun and ESPECIALLY from a distance) and they react w/ unjustified violence, they are to blame. Not you. Period.
Heck, I’ll expand it, if you do ANYTHING within your legal rights and someone reacts to you with unjustified violence, the only one to blame is them, not you. So yes, I support efforts to get people to think about their personal safety when they act, but I’m never going to blame someone who is the recipient of unjustified violence. Ever.
4. “Had GZ never left his vehicle and let the police do their job, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. That’s my whole point.”
Your point is based on perfect hindsight, which Zimmerman lacked. And there a many different choices that could have resulted in a different outcome (any of which I wish had been made). You’re just focusing on one that is morally blameless.
“I’m not saying it wasn’t rape but she was awfully drunk and wearing a very short skirt. I am saying that she created the situation in the first place.”
That’s not fair. Sexually assaulting someone is an entirely different situation and never understandable, unlike hitting someone (however wrongly you judged the situation or how illegal it is) who is following you in the dark.
“Well it’s not legal to beat someone nor is it a very good idea to beat on someone. They might be packing.”
Answer the question. Is it victim blaming to tell guys it’s a bad idea and could lead to violence or bad situations to follow women they find attractive at night.
“So if someone followed a woman around at night because he thought she was pretty and wanted to stare at her, and she freaked out and decided to mace him or hit him, would it be victim blaming to say that guy made a stupid decision and created a situation that got himself hurt?”
It’s not victim blaming to say he should think about his safety in the future, but it’s certainly victim blaming to say that he created the situation that got him injured.
“It’s not victim blaming to say he should think about his safety in the future, but it’s certainly victim blaming to say that he created the situation that got him injured. ”
See I find that ridiculous. I don’t consider it victim blaming when I’ve been told (or tell myself really), that talking crap to guys who outweighed me by 80 pounds or so got me beaten up a few times. I created those situations by being a smart-mouth punk. I don’t understand how people can talk about personal responsibility all the time and then act like everyone’s blameless for things that they started.
Geez, let’s not set foot out the door. We might get hit by a truck or a meteorite or something. This is really victim blaming.
He followed TM because he was acting suspiciously, meandering right behind houses, maybe on the phone, but not walking purposely through that rain.
GZ gave a play by play to 911. He wasn’t exactly in hot pursuit – as if he could ever really catch up to him. The confrontation is the key to that night. And it’s ridiculous to think Zimmerman caught and assaulted Trayvon. There is no evidence of that.
Answer the question
Yes, sir! CT said it best: It’s not victim blaming to say he should think about his safety in the future, but it’s certainly victim blaming to say that he created the situation that got him injured.
I think people are misunderstanding me though
I’m not.
I created those situations by being a smart-mouth punk. I don’t understand how people can talk about personal responsibility all the time and then act like everyone’s blameless for things that they started.
And if my baby had only stopped crying. . .
And if my teen had not wrecked my car. . .
And if she had only stopped flirting with her old boyfriend. . .
And if the boss had only given me that raise I deserved. . .
And if my toddler had not pulled out the tomato plants. . .
And if my student had only not talked back with his smart-mouth. . .
And if he had only not been following me. . .
I wouldn’t have beaten them up.
I’m not saying it’s okay to hit people. I’m saying I think it’s weird to act like it’s not true that sometimes (not always, definitely not kids attacked by adults or teens, or women attacked by men) people create violent situations even if they don’t throw the first punch. I consider myself varying degrees of responsible for any violence against me after I was like fourteen or so, I think it’s wrong to be like “nope, I was just a victim! No blame here!”
He wasn’t asking for it. Just because he’s “the adult” doesn’t make him psychic about Trayvon, who could have been 27 for all he knew. Praxedes is right. “If” is the biggest word in the world.
“See I find that ridiculous. I don’t consider it victim blaming when I’ve been told (or tell myself really), that talking crap to guys who outweighed me by 80 pounds or so got me beaten up a few times. I created those situations by being a smart-mouth punk.”
I find that statement ridiculous that you blame yourself for their overreaction. And sad.
“I don’t understand how people can talk about personal responsibility all the time and then act like everyone’s blameless for things that they started.”
Well talking crap to someone is something you should take responsibility for in the sense that maybe it’s not charitable or that it’s a moral failing in some other way. But it has no bearing on THEIR responsibility to control themselves. Now depending on the facts, a verbal altercation (screaming threats an inch from someone’s face) might justify some physical response such as putting your hand on the person to keep them back or even pushing them. But pissing someone off never justifies them punching or beating you up (or any serious assault).
“I’m saying I think it’s weird to act like it’s not true that sometimes (not always, definitely not kids attacked by adults or teens, or women attacked by men) people create violent situations even if they don’t throw the first punch.”
I think it’s weird to think that walking behind someone (close or far) creates and justifies a violent response. It doesn’t. I’m not just talking legally, like oh our law has this weird hangup regarding self defense where following doesn’t make you the aggressor. I mean morally. Walking behind someone without more does not morally justify confronting that person with violence. It just doesn’t. It might be unwise b/c people are nuts as Mary keeps kindly reminding us, but following someone to see where they are going without some further intent to harm etc is morally unobjectionable. Completely.
Following someone is not creating a violent situation.
Beating someone up is.
“I think it’s weird to think that walking behind someone (close or far) creates and justifies a violent response. It doesn’t. ”
Well “walking behind someone” is a bit different than “deliberately following someone”. But I don’t think it justifies hitting the follower, I’ve said I don’t think it justifies it. I do think it creates a potentially violent situation and the follower bears that responsibility if they choose to follow someone, regardless of their intentions, they are putting themselves in harms way and that’s their responsibility. Human life is important, and I really think it’s immoral to get in situations that can easily lead to someone’s death, whether it’s yours or someone else’s if it’s avoidable.
And plus you can’t read Zimmerman’s mind and neither could Martin. Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman meant him no harm (and actually no one but Zimmerman knows if he did in fact mean him any harm, though I doubt he did), just as Hans keeps pointing out that Zimmerman had no way of knowing if Martin was dangerous or just headed home.
” Well talking crap to someone is something you should take responsibility for in the sense that maybe it’s not charitable or that it’s a moral failing in some other way. But it has no bearing on THEIR responsibility to control themselves. Now depending on the facts, a verbal altercation (screaming threats an inch from someone’s face) might justify some physical response such as putting your hand on the person to keep them back or even pushing them. But pissing someone off never justifies them punching or beating you up (or any serious assault).”
Of course they have the responsibility for choosing to escalate the situation to physical violence. It doesn’t negate the responsibility of me or whatever idiot thinks talking smack about some big biker dude’s mom is a good idea, or make me or whatever idiot less responsible for putting themselves in harms way deliberately. I used to as an angry teenager talk major crap to my parents whenever I wanted, I don’t think that makes that violence my fault but I definitely escalated it.
I don’t think saying that Zimmerman made stupid decisions that helped create the situation that led to Martin’s death at his hands, however self-defense it was, means that it was justified for Martin to attack him or that Zimmerman is an evil dude.
Earlier you said, but you’ll never convince me Zimmerman didn’t cause this whole thing
But now you say Zimmerman made stupid decisions that helped create the situation that led to Martin’s death
My getting drunk with a man on a date and going to to his home helped create the situation that led to my being raped.
My marrying a man that I knew had a temper and a drinking problem helped create the situation that led to his breaking my nose and strangling me.
We ALL make stupid decisions but creating a situation is far different than causing the whole thing.
” We ALL make stupid decisions but creating a situation is far different than causing the whole thing.”
But situations like you describe, you dating a man who wasn’t a great dude, or going home with a date who ended up doing something evil, are completely different from creating situations that are threatening for other people. They were just normal decisions (going on a date, having some drinks, getting married), that had bad consequences because the other person was just a bad guy. The situations I described are people like myself taking stupid actions that could be threatening for other people or are outside of the bounds of normal behavior, in my opinion. That’s what I think is wrong. Or maybe I’m just confusing myself.
I see a Neighborhood Watch guy following someone who is acting suspicious as more “normal” than getting drunk on a date or marrying an alcoholic hothead.
My heart was in the right place when I went on the date and when I married the first time but, in hindsight, my logic and common sense was MIA. I could have drank with 100 different guys on a date and been okay and married 100 different alcoholic hotheads and never been strangled or hit. I guess I’ve never been the type to want to live a life of fear and will take no blame for other’s violence against me.
I think Zimmerman’s heart was in the right place but in hindsight he would not have followed Martin. He could have followed 100 different teens and never been beat on.
If it was found out that Martin was on his way to hurt other(s) and Zimmerman stopped him, he would be hailed as a hero. As it is now, Zimmerman and his family have to fear people retaliating against him for his doing what he thought was best in helping to keep his community safe.
“I see a Neighborhood Watch guy following someone who is acting suspicious as more “normal” than getting drunk on a date or marrying an alcoholic hothead.”
The person who coordinated the Neighborhood Watch in that area says she expressly told Zimmerman that following suspicious persons was beyond the bounds of his duties. So his actions were outside the bounds of what people who set these kind of programs up ask civilians to do. That doesn’t make him criminal, before people jump on me, but it is outside the Neighborhood Watch recommendations.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-neighborhood-watch-20130625,0,7056736.story
” My heart was in the right place when I went on the date and when I married the first time but, in hindsight, my logic and common sense was MIA. I could have drank with 100 different guys on a date and been okay and married 100 different alcoholic hotheads and never been strangled or hit. I guess I’ve never been the type to want to live a life of fear and will take no blame for other’s violence against me.”
Because you don’t have any blame, because your situations were completely different. No woman in the world is responsible for getting raped or being beat up by some nasty dude. Not all violence is like that though. In my life, probably the majority of people I’ve been around have hit me or otherwise commit violence against me. I don’t live in fear, but eventually I have to realize it’s not everyone else who is causing these problems if I’m the only constant. And there are ways to deescalate a lot of situations. And with Zimmerman and Martin, this wasn’t a case of something similar to a woman being attacked by a man, it was a case of two dudes, one younger and probably more immature than the other, getting into an altercation that they both had responsibility for in my opinion.
Edit: I misread the article I posted, the Watch coordinator said the materials she passed out stated that Watch people should not follow suspicious persons, not that she told him personally. Still, it’s reasonable to see that he was aware that his Watch duties didn’t include following people.
“I do think it creates a potentially violent situation and the follower bears that responsibility if they choose to follow someone, regardless of their intentions, they are putting themselves in harms way and that’s their responsibility.”
They are responsible for their own safety. Not for having to defend against the person who put their safety in jeopardy without cause.
“Human life is important, and I really think it’s immoral to get in situations that can easily lead to someone’s death, whether it’s yours or someone else’s if it’s avoidable.”
There are things worth risking your safety for. Defense of your neighborhood would rank among them.
“And plus you can’t read Zimmerman’s mind and neither could Martin. Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman meant him no harm (and actually no one but Zimmerman knows if he did in fact mean him any harm, though I doubt he did), just as Hans keeps pointing out that Zimmerman had no way of knowing if Martin was dangerous or just headed home.”
Right – all the more reason not to clock him and then start beating the hell out of him for good measure. I’m sorry I don’t think our laws are wrong to ask for some legally sufficient provocation before people are allowed to respond with violence. I think that the rules align with moral behavior rather than subvert it. Martin created the physical confrontation and he escalated it to a point of no return.
“Of course they have the responsibility for choosing to escalate the situation to physical violence. It doesn’t negate the responsibility of me or whatever idiot thinks talking smack about some big biker dude’s mom is a good idea, or make me or whatever idiot less responsible for putting themselves in harms way deliberately. I used to as an angry teenager talk major crap to my parents whenever I wanted, I don’t think that makes that violence my fault but I definitely escalated it.”
I just can’t even explain how sick I find this thinking. It makes me sad for you, Jack.
“Watch coordinator said the materials she passed out stated that Watch people should not follow suspicious persons, not that she told him personally. Still, it’s reasonable to see that he was aware that his Watch duties didn’t include following people.”
Who cares if watch people aren’t expected to go above and beyond to actually follow suspicious people. Zimmerman was willing to risk his personal safety for the good of his neighborhood. That’s the opposite of a bad thing. He bears no responsibility for the fact that Martin reacted violently.
Praxedes:
“If it was found out that Martin was on his way to hurt other(s) and Zimmerman stopped him, he would be hailed as a hero.”
This. All. Day.
I don’t live in fear, but eventually I have to realize it’s not everyone else who is causing these problems if I’m the only constant.
An individual who is being bullied in his home, at his workplace or at school by another person or a group of people for being skinny, fat, special needs, homosexual, Christian, irritating, short, tall, smart-mouthed, Muslim or for not following recommended rules is the only constant, too,
but it is outside the Neighborhood Watch recommendations
I work with students who do not follow the recommended rules. After sharing a few of my stories with others, some people say things like, “I woulda drilled him. He deserved it.” No, he didn’t. If he actually attacks me, all bets are off though and I will fight back.
Didn’t your ex-wife hit you with a guitar? What did you do to egg her on?
I was playing video games for like three hours wearing headphones to drown out the screaming baby when she asked me for help like a gazillion times. It wasn’t a good thing for her to do, but I’m not going to pretend I’m not a jerk.
I think we’re all repeating the same things over and over.
I just can’t even explain how sick I find this thinking. It makes me sad for you, Jack.
This makes me sad, too. I think this dysfunctional thinking may be common among people who have been or are being abused.
While I was in an abusive relationship and before I got help, I can remember thinking that if I could just be a better wife, a better mom, a better cook, a better housekeeper, make more money, give him more attention, be thinner, younger, prettier, say things differently, pray more and/or differently, become sweeter and nicer, he would stop hurting me.
But it wasn’t me. It was him.
And as sad as it is, it was Trayvon, too.
This. All. Day.
Dana Loesch talks about the following heroes under Hans’ Prolife Vid of the Day:
http://www.examiner.com/article/boy-rescues-kidnapped-girl-abducted-girl-saved-by-brave-boys-on-bikes
Why isn’t this story all over the media? Where are the NAACP’s comments on these young men?
CT,
Snark? You have little room to complain.
The issue isn’t the legality of following someone. I don’t give a crap about the legality or what your law books say. I care about the reality. Like the reality of the young man I saw who got his head stomped to mush when confronting a couple of dirtbags who were harassing a woman. He would spend the remaineder of his brief life in a nursing home, his devastated mother would die of a broken heart a few days after his death. That’s the reality I have seen CT. I don’t give a crap what’s in any law book.
Whether or not a violent response is warranted or justified is irrelevant. Follow someone and you may well be putting yourself in a position of being the victim of violence. People who are being followed and don’t like it aren’t going to concern themselves with what it legal or whether their behavior is justified. You have to take the responsiblity of protecting yourself.
Blaming GZ and the beauty queen? I say they set themselves up to be victims by their confrontational behavior. They both did something very foolhardy and dangerous. Who is to blame is irrelevant. The beauty queen is no less dead. Following is potentially confrontational and can be deadly. Who knows what it going through the mind of someone being followed or how they may react? My point is following someone is putting yourself in a very dangerous position, not who is or isn’t justified in reacting a certain way.
As I have said my brother is a former cop who has supervised and trained Neighborhood Watch for years. Two important NW, not his, rules he never compromised on:
1. No weapons
2.No confrontations, including following.
Now why do you suppose that is? My brother said it was to avoid situations like GZ, who he views as an overzealous NW who’s gun gave him a false sense of power and security.
The only “following” that NW allowed was to obtain a license plate number. The police were then notified and the NW volunteer had done their duty. Following on foot was never permitted. Nor was doing your own personal investigating. Any guesses as to why they had this rule CT?
So I will continue to stress to people on this blog and elsewhere that unless you have a death wish or want to get into legal hot water, I urge you to leave following suspicious persons to the police. You can’t know what if any distance to follow someone is “safe” or how that person is going to react. Hopefully CT you will have sense enough to follow this advice.
Prax,
No one admires heroic actions more than I do. Its the foolishly dangerous and unnecessary ones that I warn people against.
Its one thing to witness a crime and act heroically. Its another to put yourself into a dangerous situation better handled by the police.
Prax I think I understand your point but I think the kind of abusive relationship you’re talking about is a lot different from the situation I was in in my marriage and otherwise in my life.
I do wonder why the people like Jackson and the NAACP don’t constantly hold up youths like the ones in your link as an example of awesome young black people, to counteract the racist image as the typical young black male as some type of criminal. It’s certainly better than the race-baiting they do .
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary
I’ll just get the aggressive name repetition out of the way in the beginning.
“I don’t give a crap about the legality or what your law books say.”
Clearly. So stop talking about legal implications.
“I care about the reality.”
Less clear.
“People who are being followed and don’t like it aren’t going to concern themselves with what it legal or whether their behavior is justified. You have to take the responsiblity of protecting yourself.”
Zimmerman did take responsibility for protecting himself from a violent reaction. And if he had died in the scuffle, that would have been a risk he undertook (regardless of any liability on the part of his killer. They are separate issues). I already said I agree with your PSA that following can be dangerous. I just disagree that no one can or should ever undertake the action without being responsible for people’s illegal violence or that the action responsible for the outcome in this case was the morally neutral act of following someone rather than the initial attack or the continued attack.
“The only “following” that NW allowed was to obtain a license plate number. The police were then notified and the NW volunteer had done their duty. Following on foot was never permitted. Nor was doing your own personal investigating. Any guesses as to why they had this rule CT?”
Legal liability. But you don’t give a crap about that.
“Hopefully CT you will have sense enough to follow this advice.”
LOL. I don’t follow people as a practice. I wouldn’t attack someone who was following me. I hope I would be courageous enough to follow someone if the situation warranted. I’ll pass on your legal advice.
“Like the reality of the young man I saw who got his head stomped to mush when confronting a couple of dirtbags who were harassing a woman. He would spend the remaineder of his brief life in a nursing home, his devastated mother would die of a broken heart a few days after his death. That’s the reality I have seen CT. I don’t give a crap what’s in any law book.”……
“No one admires heroic actions more than I do. Its the foolishly dangerous and unnecessary ones that I warn people against.”
The difference between the two in your eyes is hindsight and outcome. I’ll take my heroism a little less tepid if it’s all the same to you. The guy in your first story could easily be considered a hero.
My brother said it was to avoid situations like GZ, who he views as an overzealous NW who’s gun gave him a false sense of power and security.
Well it wasn’t your brother’s life that needed defending. Overzealous NW carrying guns doing what in their heart they believe to be best for their neighborhood, do not deserve to be beat. The outcome shows the opposite of a false sense of power and security.
Its another to put yourself into a dangerous situation better handled by the police.
Many situations are better handled by the police. But the police are not always around, don’t always have the necessary resources and person power and, unfortunately, sometimes just don’t give a rat’s behind because what’s going on doesn’t personally affect them or their families. We all have responsibility toward other — watching out for your neighbor and all that.
Its the foolishly dangerous and unnecessary ones that I warn people against.
Like CT said, you are basing this on hindsight and outcome. Maybe we should all just live in a padded bubble.
I think the kind of abusive relationship you’re talking about is a lot different from the situation I was in in my marriage and otherwise in my life.
The more I learn from you, the more I agree. Being a jerk still does not constitute someone having the right to hit you in the head. What constitutes jerk behavior is different for everyone but hitting someone in the head is the same for everyone. However, I also believe not helping out a parent that you can see is very upset who is holding a baby who is also very upset (your own baby nonetheless) is more than being a jerk but is rather a passive form of abuse.
My ex-husband wouldn’t play video games to avoid helping me; he would just go to the garage, turn up the music and drink (he also claimed in court that he was the abused one and there are still people who believe him). I’m guessing this wasn’t the first time you ignored the needs of your wife and child and it’s fortunate she didn’t hit the baby with the guitar instead of you. Had your ex not hit you but rather packed up the baby and left, got some help for herself and the baby, talked with advocates and started the process of leaving you instead, custody would probably have been a whole different story.
The guy in your first story could easily be considered a hero.
In my eyes he is. I am guessing the guys who killed him went to prison.
Maybe the man who stepped in saved the woman from getting stomped on. Maybe the man who died looking out for someone else prevented many other innocent people from being harassed and hurt in the future.
And the reality is, Mary, that you have no way of knowing that he didn’t.
Follow someone and you may well be putting yourself in a position of being the victim of violence. People who are being followed and don’t like it aren’t going to concern themselves with what it legal or whether their behavior is justified. You have to take the responsiblity of protecting yourself.
Mary,
As CT pointed out, Zimmerman took on the responsibility of protecting himself. To think Martin was just doing the same because he was being followed is cuckoo.
You would think this is a case of a boy being “gunned down” for wearing a hoodie, according to those upset with the verdict.
What I see is someone being “concerned citizen-shamed”
It appears that Mary anticipates protection from the government, and I am sad to say that she is very likely to be disappointed the next time the need arises. Perhaps if she lives next to a police station and brings them donuts frequently, she might have a better chance than the rest of us do.
“The more I learn from you, the more I agree. Being a jerk still does not constitute someone having the right to hit you in the head. What constitutes jerk behavior is different for everyone but hitting someone in the head is the same for everyone. However, I also believe not helping out a parent that you can see is very upset who is holding a baby who is also very upset (your own baby nonetheless) is more than being a jerk but is rather a passive form of abuse.”
Yes, like I’m saying that sometimes people who get hit are really just wastes of space, I don’t see how people can claim that people are never at fault for getting themselves hit. That was early in the marriage and I eventually did a lot better, and I eventually got over my fear of taking care of the baby. but it didn’t mean I didn’t thoroughly deserve it then and any other time. I just don’t understand this thinking that unless it’s self-defense no one ever creates their own problems.
Oh and the baby was only like a few weeks old, and that wasn’t the first time there was violence from her, that started before we were married. Doesn’t mean that it wasn’t my fault but I hadn’t had much of a chance to fix my behaviors, we hasn’t been married long at all.
She still didn’t have to go all “El Kabong” on you, Jack. A simple swat on the head should have also got your attention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2_SCx99EvI
Or, you know, I could have not been a loser in the first place and figured out how to properly care for a family and not needed to have any smacking going on.
You might have figured it out sooner had she just left you and refused to come back until you got help being a parent and husband. As it is, you are still blaming yourself for her and others’ physical violence against you.
I wish you would get help for this negative way of thinking about yourself and I sure hope your ex got help for her violent temper. Not only for yourselves, but for your guys’ beautiful children.
A simple swat on the head should have also got your attention.
Or maybe a simple kiss and a hug goodbye along with a note explaining how she could not stay in such a toxic environment for her own health and the health of their children. But there is that hindsight and outcome factor again. Although I strongly disagree with Oprah on a few major issues, I did like her saying, “When you know better, you do better.”
Anyway, I love this Hans: concerned citizen-shamed.
Also what a cute (and relevant) video clip. Sometimes if we didn’t laugh, we’d cry.
I don’t understand that at all.
Hey everyone, want to know something weird? I’ve liked pretty much every comment on this thread. Yeah, think about that.
Your weird, JDC. (:
“Your weird, JDC. (:”
I prefer to think of myself as very generous. Well, at least in the field of giving out cost-less likes to my fellow blog commenters.
Praxedes I don’t think you can say I am like the man who by all accounts was horribly abusive and then tell me to think positively about myself. I keep reading your posts and it doesn’t make any sense to me at all. You don’t have to respond I just wanted to say I think that doesn’t make any sense.
As to the specific Zimmerman case, I wasn’t there. I wasn’t on the jury. I don’t know what happened but I’m satisfied with the verdict because I’d rather let a guilty man go free than see an innocent man be punished. I’m just sad that a young man had to lose his life and my heart breaks for his family and friends.
That being said, I think I agree with what Jack’s saying, if I understand correctly. Not that every person is to be blamed for every act of violence, but some people create violent situations.
One time, I was pumping gas at a station late at night. The pump didn’t work so I had to go inside. These teenage/young 20s guys were loitering around the door between two cars. When I walked by, they were whistling, catcalling, asking me what I was up and if I “wanted to go home with them.” They created a violent situation by their words, postures, and leering. Technically, they didn’t do anything violent. The didn’t push me. They didn’t do anything. But I think in that situation, I would have been justified in punching them in the face or drawing a gun/knife to ward them off. People can create violent situations by being idiots and threatening others. It’s true. I’ve seen it happen in many situations. People can give off vibes, say nasty things, make verbal threats. And sometimes an appropriate response to a verbal threat is a smack in the face.
Like the guy who said something totally perverted about my sister. No, he didn’t touch her, but I maintain the punk had it coming when I walloped his head in front of church and warned him to never lay a finger on her.
And heaven help the fool who threatens my kid…. ;) It’ll be mama grizzly meets terminator.
Anyway. Not saying anything about the martin case, I don’t know what happened, but yes, some people can create situations in which they have it coming. It is possible.
Jack, I compared what my ex did to avoid helping his family to what you did to avoid helping your family and also stated how I believe this ignoring behavior is also a form of abuse albeit not physical and not as immediately damaging. Please try not to read further into what I say. I don’t doubt for a minute that your wife and others physically abused you, Jack, and would never accuse you of being physically abusive unless you admitted it or I saw proof.
My ex was brought up in a horribly abusive family, too. This you also have in common with him. I only wish he would get the help he needed to break those cycles. Our children are raised now but I truly do wish him love and peace in his life. He is drinking himself to death and his children still love him more than anything and I just wish he would love himself half as much.
I have made some terrible choices in my life and I still have to choose to Think Positive about myself and to forgive myself and others. Sometimes I think it is harder to forgive ourselves than it is to forgive others. Especially if we were never given the tools for how to do this. We have the choice to make these positive decisions everyday.
Get up in the mirror and do what Jessica does — change up the words she uses to people and things that you love:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qR3rK0kZFkg
Peace to you my Little Bro-Lifer!
Ok thanks that makes more sense I think.
And that’s probably one of the cutest videos I’ve ever seen, made me smile, bookmarked lol.
CT,CT,CT, CT
May I remind you that you are the one starting this discussion with your rant about the legality of following someone else when in fact I never discussed legalities, only the safety factor.
Now, let’s move forward:
1.Zimmerman took the responsibility of protecting himself, and possibly killing someone else. He also took the responsiblity of following someone. The police responded, GZ needed to only remain in his vehicle and let them do their job. He was “suspicious” of TM, a purely subjective assessment. TM was committing no crime. Had GZ left well enough alone he and TM, who wasn’t hunting GZ, would not have had their altercation and GZ would not have been put in the position he claims he was to defend his life.
2.Since TM is dead, we can never know his side of the story, only GZ’s. We do not know who instigated the fight. We do not know what was going through TM’s mind. We do not know if he had reason to fear for his safety. We have only GZ’s word.
3.My argument concerns safety. The world is full of dangerous people. Following and confrontations can be deadly. Let the police do their job.
No CT, my brother gave the reason for only obtaining a license plate number and leaving the rest to the police. To avoid deadly confrontations, like with GZ and TM. NW are not freelance police officers or vigilantes. They observe and report, period.
You hope you would be courageous enough to follow if the situation warranted? I hope the perrson you’re following doesn’t have a gun or some unseen accomplices.
The young man that was stomped wasn’t stopping a crime, just telling a couple of loudmouths to shut up. Point is that following and/or confrontations can be deadly, however noble the intention.
That was the point I was making to X when I advised her against following someone.
What I’m stressing is how one can set themselves up to be a victim, like the beauty queen did. Playing cop could have been just as deadly for GZ as it was for TM.
BTW CT, I haven’t given any legal advice and never did.
Prax,
Maybe my brother’s life didn’t need defending because he didn’t set himself up to be a victim, it can happen when you play policeman, and made sure the other NW volunteers didn’t either.
BTW, my brother, in his duties as a POLICE OFFICER, has pulled his gun in self defense, when he discovered a man he was confronting in a domestic violence situation was handling a samurai sword. Like I said, lots of dangerous people out there and you never know what they’ll do.
I’m all for watching out for my neighbor. If I see a suspicious person prowling their property, I call the police. If I see my neighbor’s life is in immediate danger, well, let’s say I have a gun and know how to use it. Huge difference between suspicious behavior and situations involving life and death.
Based on hindsight? My brother says in his 20 years in NW there hasn’t been one such incident. Wonder why. Because people realize the rules are to protect them and innocent people who are really not committing any crime. Like TM.
Yes the dirtbags that eventually killed him, he spent years in a nursing home, are in prison. However this young man died senselessly and horribly. Heroic? I think he was better described as chivalrous. The woman was in no danger, these pukes were just a couple of loudmouths and the young man probably thought that he could reason with them. Sadly, they had a pair of very heavy boots and bad tempers. I can only speculate on what was or wasn’t prevented. I only know a family lost two members, his mother died of a broken heart.
But I think in that situation, I would have been justified in punching them in the face or drawing a gun/knife to ward them off.
I would agree with this if you truly believed that they were going to physically hurt, rape, or kill you and/or your child. I don’t believe we are justified in punching every jerk and bully. I believe trying to find out who these guys are and talking to the business owners and/or police is a better and safer bet.
Unfortunately, my experience tells me that if women punched, shot, or knifed every young or old cat caller, whistler, harasser, our population would be greatly decreased. And if you are going to punch them or threaten them, you better be a darn fast runner or armed.
Unfortunately, most women have dealt with this immature behavior. I worked in bars when I was young and usually a more mature, sober male patron(s) would embarrass them and tell them to knock it off. I also dealt with catcalls and nasty comments when I was a young jogger. I think these guys need positive male role models to put them in their place and they don’t much care what women think so we are not as effective.
No, he didn’t touch her, but I maintain the punk had it coming when I walloped his head in front of church and warned him to never lay a finger on her.
I would have said in a loud voice, “Can you repeat what you just said? I didn’t hear you. Make sure you repeat it nice and loud for everyone to hear!” Then I would have told his family and pastor what he said and told him he needed to apologize. I have done this with students and it is usually very effective. I just can’t go cuffing every emotionally disturbed kid I work with who say nasty things even though there have been many times I want to! Many of them are bigger than me and I believe they are more likely to come back and physically hurt me later if I pop them one after every nasty comment. If I can’t handle their behavior, male staff or police are called to react physically to the student if he gets too out of hand.
When my boys were younger, they started repeating how they heard their dad talk to me and about women. He was already doing everything he could to teach them that I was the “bad guy” and this got worse after I left him. I think if I had physically smacked the boys when they repeated the nasty stuff their dad said, it would have cemented in their minds that I was really the abusive one. Just like me, they needed to be deprogrammed and I think hitting them would have made it worse in the long run.
I did smack my oldest in the face one time when he was about nine and I was newly separated. He called me a f*cking b*tch and grabbed the steering wheel while I was driving. My other two and one of their friends were in the backseat. The car swerved and I instinctively backhanded my son and he got a bloody nose. He said, “I’m calling the cops!”
I drove to the cop shop, told the officer what happened and thank goodness the officer backed me up and gave my son a lecture about how their were places for boys who mistreated their moms. His swearing at me stopped. I don’t attribute it to my backhand but to the positive male backing me up. I strongly believe in the importance of involved dads and positive male role-models for children.
Hi Hans,
When GZ took his gun and followed someone, he took on the responsiblity for his safety, and putting others at serious risk. As such, he put himself in danger and anyone else he comes in contact with. Let’s hope his gun didn’t misfire or that he panicked and fired at the wrong person. Let’s hope the bullet from the misfired gun didn’t go through someone’s front window. Those bullets have to go somewhere.
Hans do you have any idea what was going through TM’s mind? Do you know whether or not he truly feared for his safety? Do you know who started the fight and why? TM isn’t here to answer those questions and as such, we can never know.
“He was already doing everything he could to teach them that I was the “bad guy” and this got worse after I left him.”
Is this common for when one spouse physically abuses the other? To tell the kids that it’s the person who got hit’s fault for being a loser/pathetic/whatever words your ex used?
I’m sorry your ex taught your kids things like this.
The woman was in no danger, these pukes were just a couple of loudmouths and the young man probably thought that he could reason with them.
I respectfully agree to disagree Mary that the woman was in no danger with two pukes who were capable of stomping someone to death. There is no way you could know this. As I said, she might have gotten it worse later and by their being locked up, more people are safe from their harassment and violence.
BTW, even police officers have varying opinions about this case. So there’s that.
Pharmer1
“Appears” sums it up. You don’t have a clue.
I have a gun and know how to use it. I won’t hesitate to protect myself and my family. I will use it to protect someone else from a life threatening situation.
I will not take it upon myself to follow people I deem “suspcious” with a loaded weapon in my belt.
I admire true heroism, people who put their lives on the line to protect someone else. Not people who set themselves up to be victims.
Prax,
The woman could have walked away. They weren’t holding her captive, it was outside a bar. I don’t know exactly what words were exchanged but a fight erupted. Yes I admire his chivalry, but the point is you never know where a confrontation will go, however noble your intentions. He could have also suggested the woman leave or come inside with him.
Whatever, the dirtbags are locked up. Hopefully they rot.
“The woman was in no danger, these pukes were just a couple of loudmouths and the young man probably thought that he could reason with them. Sadly, they had a pair of very heavy boots and bad tempers. I can only speculate on what was or wasn’t prevented. I only know a family lost two members, his mother died of a broken heart.”
Would it have been better if she had died instead? I realize men are more likely to kill each other but violence against women certainly exists and women have less of a chance of fending someone off. The type of guys who will stomp another man’s head into the pavement for calling out their sexist behavior is someone I think has a high chance of physically harming a woman. I think most men (unless they are disabled or otherwise impaired) have a duty to at least say something if people are being verbally or sexually harassed. Some dudes just need to realize other guys think they are being doucheknozzles.
It’s a completely different type of thing from Zimmerman, who say someone committing no crimes but looked suspicious. Harassing someone verbally can be a crime depending on what is said and when two men are saying stuff to a woman there’s no way decent guys should just be like “meh, they’re just loudmouths”. Street harassers turn into sex offenders sometimes.
Is this common for when one spouse physically abuses the other? To tell the kids that it’s the person who got hit’s fault for being a loser/pathetic/whatever words your ex used?
It sure was in my case. It’s my gut feeling that it is common in others, too.
I admire true heroism, people who put their lives on the line to protect someone else. Not people who set themselves up to be victims.
Mary, what do you think about the male teens that followed the kidnapper?
” It sure was in my case. It’s my gut feeling that it is common in others, too.”
Oh yeah. I know it’s completely different for my marriage but my ex used to tell the kids I was a loser. My son used to play “house” with his dolls and the things he had the mommy and daddy dolls do and say were just disturbing, that’s when I realized that something was really abnormal with the way the marriage was. She still tells the kids they shouldn’t listen to me but luckily they seem to like me.
Prax,
They have only my admiration and respect. They’re heroes. They acted to protect the life of a child in immediate danger.
Hi Jack,
I believe the poor man acted bravely and honorably. He certainly had no way of knowing what these lowlifes were capable of, he may have just seen them as a couple of young punks he could easily take on. What the woman’s relationship to them was or why she’d stay and take their abuse, they weren’t holding her captive, is also unknown to me.
The point is, no matter how noble and harmless our intentions, confrontations can be deadly.
Mary I know I’m a bad example of decency lol but I have called out dudes for saying ridiculously sexist things and thinking that type of talk and behavior is okay. For example at my old apartment complex I used to play basketball with a lot of dudes at the local hoops, and generally they were pretty decent but one day the conversation got around to women and a couple of the guys started talking about “creepshots”, how it’s hot to take pictures of women you think are sexy without their consent or knowledge, and how women should be flattered by it. “Upskirting” was also mentioned (upskirting is when creeps sneakily take photos under women’s skirts when they’re just trying to go about their day shopping or whatever, there are whole websites devoted to this voyeuristic, rapey, harassment stuff). I told them I thought they were f**ked up and they better hope they never tried to do any of that stuff to women around me, and how would they feel if someone did that to their mom or sister or wife or daughter. One of the guys called me a p**sy and a fag but the other one looked ashamed. Out of the like ten guys there I was the only one who said anything to them at first, but then a couple other guys were like “yeah brah that’s not cool” to the creeps.
Harassing women can only stand if guys who don’t think it’s okay don’t do anything about it. Now, I don’t think that made me stupid or setting myself up to be a victim by saying that it’s not acceptable to treat women a certain way to those dudes. If I had gotten in their face and started threatening them that would be stupid, but there’s no way that I would have shrugged it off if a woman had been there and they have decided to verbally harass her, even if I didn’t feel she was in immediate danger I would still be bound to say something, maybe they had simply never been called on it and needed to hear that isn’t normal male behavior, have another guy tell them that. Maybe the next time a woman wouldn’t get harassed, maybe next time they wouldn’t escalate to actually touching her or otherwise assaulting her. There are way more men who don’t think that’s acceptable than there are creeps, and the only way creeps get away with it is because dudes don’t say anything unless it’s their wife or daughter or another female they personally care about. That should change.
Well obviously I wouldn’t hit students. But he was a peer.
I don’t know. I get what you’re saying, and trust me, I’m not into just threatening people and hitting them. I’m actually not a violent person. I don’t plan on spanking my children. Violence – even in movies – makes me very uncomfortable.
However, as they say, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. You can’t go through life hoping someone else will save your butt. In most situations, walking away and trying to avoid violence is best. But there are times when lashing out physically at someone may just be the answer. Not always, and not even in most situations, but yes, there are some situations in which lashing out is the answer. And you have to be prepared to either step up for yourself or defend someone else.
And no, i’m not advocating being a hot head and rushing into situations guns a-blazing. But also keep in mind that it’s easy to say what should have been done in a situation when you weren’t there.
” I believe the poor man acted bravely and honorably. He certainly had no way of knowing what these lowlifes were capable of, he may have just seen them as a couple of young punks he could easily take on. What the woman’s relationship to them was or why she’d stay and take their abuse, they weren’t holding her captive, is also unknown to me.
The point is, no matter how noble and harmless our intentions, confrontations can be deadly.”
Well see the point is that it doesn’t matter if she ran off in fear/annoyance/embarrassment or not, something still needed to be said to people who harass women. Every time. No matter if the woman can get away from them or is in no danger (as far as you know, situations can change quickly), every single dude in my opinion is morally responsible to call out other males for that kind of crap. Honestly, I’ve debated internally on whether I think people should be fined or get community service or something for saying sexually explicit comments to strangers on the street (even dudes, it’s happened to me on occasion from gay dudes or even a couple brash women), because it really does create a culture of fear for women especially, but even men who have been on the receiving end of this.
Oh and Prax, first, I’m so sorry you had to deal with that horrible situation with your ex. :(
And yeah I know that women have to deal with catcallers. I don’t confront them. But my point was there is a lot that goes into making a situation threatening. I’ve had lone catcallers that I just ignore; I’m not a dog, you can’t whistle for me. But in a certain situation, men can create a violent situation by posture, how many there are, tones, etc. When they directly ask you questions, and try to call your attention, and their buddies start moving towards you, yeah, I’d say that’s creating a violent situation without being violent. There’s different responses for different situations.
Honestly, I’ve debated internally on whether I think people should be fined or get community service or something for saying sexually explicit comments to strangers on the street (even dudes, it’s happened to me on occasion from gay dudes or even a couple brash women), because it really does create a culture of fear for women especially, but even men who have been on the receiving end of this.
This. Yes. I’ve had some pretty explicit things yelled at me, and said to me, in public. And each time it sent a lance of fear through the heart. Honestly, people as bystanders so rarely do anything. You can’t count on others to save you and speak up for you. You shouldn’t create trouble, but you should be prepared to defend yourself and others.
And we totally need to realize that calling out vulgar and sexually explicit things contributes to a violent society. In a sense, we are being publicly violated in public. And it can easily and quickly turn physical. I think calling out people who catcall or make sexually explicit comments is important and needs to be done immediately- not wait for authorities.
Hence the walloping of the kid at church. It was a quick reaction and let him know that that speech was inappropriate.
Hi Jack,
Point taken.
It may also be like the situation male friends have told me about. They go to help a woman who is being physically or verbally abused and she turns on them! Tells them to mind their own f**g business. I’ve had a couple of male friends tell me its happened more than once and never again will they stick their necks out, and possibly risk what happened to the young man I mentioned.
” Honestly, people as bystanders so rarely do anything. You can’t count on others to save you and speak up for you. You shouldn’t create trouble, but you should be prepared to defend yourself and others. ”
Yeah, everyone should be prepared to defend themselves. But I think in the cases of sexual harassment of women by men (other types of sexual harassment are a bit different), men are the ones who should be socially required to say something. A woman being harassed should be prepared if no one steps up, but I think that society is failing by not teaching guys that they need to not ignore this stuff; men tend to be bigger and stronger, and women are threatened by men in a way that men will rarely if ever be threatened by women. People who are bigger and stronger need to say something when they see stuff go on that could lead to a woman being hurt.
And women can call each other out for the rare times that women do things like this (I’ve seen some women harass each other and call strangers sluts or whores), or like if you see a woman slap her boyfriend tell her that’s not acceptable. Lol once one of my female neighbors told my wife after one night where there was a loud fight “You know, he can’t hit you back but I can”, it didn’t work but it was polite of her to try. Or like Mary mentioned with women telling Good Samaritans to eff off, telling other women that they don’t have to take that kind of treatment and should be accepting of people telling others off for bad behavior.
“CT,CT,CT, CT”
More efficient, yes? Though less so when you still do it within the text.
“May I remind you that you are the one starting this discussion with your rant about the legality of following someone else when in fact I never discussed legalities, only the safety factor.”
It’s not even worth my effort to get the quote but you definitely said multiple times “don’t follow someone unless you have a death wish or want to end up in legal hot water.”
” Zimmerman took the responsibility of protecting himself, and possibly killing someone else. He also took the responsiblity of following someone. The police responded, GZ needed to only remain in his vehicle and let them do their job.”
Which we know from what…I’ll say it slowly. Hiiiind siiiight.
“He was “suspicious” of TM, a purely subjective assessment.”
So? Now we only act w/ iron clad proof? lol. Talk about hiding behind rigidity and rejecting the reality of how we can assess other people’s behavior.
“TM was committing no crime. Had GZ left well enough alone he and TM, who wasn’t hunting GZ, would not have had their altercation and GZ would not have been put in the position he claims he was to defend his life. Since TM is dead, we can never know his side of the story, only GZ’s. We do not know who instigated the fight. We do not know what was going through TM’s mind. We do not know if he had reason to fear for his safety. We have only GZ’s word.”
We can’t know anything about the case but apparently you can be sure that Zimmerman is responsible.
“My argument concerns safety. The world is full of dangerous people. Following and confrontations can be deadly. Let the police do their job.”
Your argument is just you emoting all over the place about when someone has the right to risk their safety in the aid of the safety of others. The principles of Mary are nebulous and ever changing. You can intervene in defense of others when a crime is being committed unless oops, turns out you get your head bashed in and your mother dies of a broken heart, and Mary is just sure that the guys meant the woman no harm (no crime here boys), so definitely a wait for police situation, hero status denied. You can even follow someone (cardinal sin to safety!!!) if you’re sure they’re kidnapping a child. However, had you been wrong about that and the guy wasn’t kidnapping the child and he attacks you, well then shame on you sir. You should have called the police and waited before committing such egregious sins against the safety of yourself and others! You know what, people should probably just call you first and ask you to look into your crystal ball to determine if their actions will be judged foolhardy or heroic. Or maybe they’ll just rely on more principled concepts of courage.
“No CT, my brother gave the reason for only obtaining a license plate number and leaving the rest to the police. To avoid deadly confrontations, like with GZ and TM. NW are not freelance police officers or vigilantes. They observe and report, period.”
Yeah b/c no one is going to require someone else to put themselves in a possibly dangerous situation. And you are deluded if you think liability has nothing to do with the reason that’s a common rule.
“You hope you would be courageous enough to follow if the situation warranted? I hope the perrson you’re following doesn’t have a gun or some unseen accomplices.”
The two hopes are not mutually exclusive. Just like if you’re ever in danger I can hope the police get there in time and also hope that someone else gets there in time just in case (even if s/he got there by following).
“What I’m stressing is how one can set themselves up to be a victim, like the beauty queen did.”
No, you’re stressing how one can do nothing wrong and be the perpetrator. Yes, your actions can risk your safety (yours, not the safety of an unjustified aggressor), but that is not (never has been, never will be) setting yourself up to be a victim. I have the perfect word for how outrageous I think victim blaming is, but it would violate blog rules.
And Praxedes before I forget I want to tell you that I didn’t ignore my ex that night because I was trying to hurt her or punish her in any way. I realize it was completely wrong of me but it wasn’t to harm her, I was completely overwhelmed because I had no idea how to care for a baby and I didn’t know what she expected when she said “do something about the baby he won’t stop crying and I’m going insane”. I had never been around babies and didn’t have any examples while I was growing up on how to properly care for one. So I was pathetic about it and shut down instead of just bucking up and trying to figure out how to help. I know that it was wrong, and I am not trying to foist of any responsibility of mine or say it’s not my fault, I just think it’s important to say that I wasn’t trying to make her miserable or harm her, and I did learn better after a while.
Actually what she did was just decide leave the baby with me one night and tell me she’d be back in the morning, and leave to hang out with her friends, she really needed a break. And it’s incredibly embarrassing to admit but I just sat on the couch after she left and cried like an idiot because I was completely terrified of doing something wrong. I just thought “what business do I have being a dad? I shouldn’t have gotten married, I never should have done this”. But eventually he started crying and I had to pick him up, and it was okay. He didn’t break and I could figure out what to do. So I really hope people know that I wasn’t just a monster, I was mostly scared and was a complete idiot about how to handle my fears. It didn’t make ignoring things okay at all, I’m not saying that, but I did learn to do better.
Jack,
I think those emotions and reactions are actually really common among new parents. I don’t know many couples who didn’t go through unbelievable stress to their relationship during the first few months (some longer). And I personally know a lot of men even without your history who reacted the same way. You are responsible for your failings, of course, but they are still understandable and common. You learned and did better and that’s what matters.
Thanks CT, I don’t know if they are common mistakes and feelings but I do regret them, and I haven’t asked any other dads how they felt about their first kid so I really feel like I screwed up more than most people. My father-in-law called me slightly before she left the baby with me that night and said something to the effect of “what the hell is wrong with you? I let you marry my daughter and you don’t take care of her and the kid? There’s nothing wrong with bathing or changing your own kid so help your wife out or I’ll have something more to say to you”. I think that if he had been just a tad more “can we do something to help you two?” rather than getting mad at me I think it might have helped a bit. But that part turned out okay eventually.
CT,
Didn’t GZ end up in legal hot water? Also, what happens if you accidentally injure an innocent person while following them? You cause an accident? I believe I only said that once. I did not say following was illegal but something may happen while you follow someone that gets you in trouble. I was in a situation where another driver got angry with my driver and followed him, nearly causing an accident not to mention scaring the daylights out of me. Now if she caused and accident and caused some injuries?
So tell me the crime TM was committing when GZ decided to follow him.
Hardly emoting. As I said I support true heroism as much as the next person. I don’t support people setting themselves up to be victims or taking on the role of vigilante based only on a “suspicion” that someone is up to no good.
CT, do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I said what the man did was very noble and heroic but its an example of what can happen in a confrontation, however noble your intention.
Its one thing to intervene to help someone, its another to take it upon yourself to follow someone with a deadly weapon.
Oh, so are you saying there can be legal liablity if an NW volunteer carries a deadly weapon or confronts or follows someone? The rules are to prevent situations like GZ/TM.
If I am in immediate danger I won’t object to someone being a hero. Anymore than I’d object to someone saving me from a house fire. However, that’s a far cry from me taking it upon myself to follow someone with a gun.
Concerning the beauty queen, I’m stressing how someone can do something very foolhardy and dangerous, like follow and confront someone she doesn’t know, and end up dead as a result. Its not called victim blaming. Its called setting yourself up to be a victim.
I would ‘like’ your 8:53 pm post 1000 times if I could, CT.
I have the perfect word for how outrageous I think victim blaming is, but it would violate blog rules.
Hear! Hear! I’ll add Auntie Em’s words, ”And now – well, being a Christian woman, I can’t say it!”
I’ve had a couple of male friends tell me its happened more than once and never again will they stick their necks out, and possibly risk what happened to the young man I mentioned.
Because some women are not grateful for help and lash out (because they are so abused that they now see how they are being treated as normal) means that we should not stick our neck out for anybody? The folks who lash back actually need more people to stand up for them than the grateful folks. But see, Mary, helping others is not about SELF and our comfort, it is about OTHER.
Many school bullying programs tell the stronger (emotionally, mentally, and/or physically) kids to stand up for the weaker ones against bullies. Maybe kids should just be taught to walk away because you never know when someone might stomp on you for meddling. Do you see a child being called foul names by her parent in the store? Keep your mouth shut because the child is in no immediate danger and the parent might turn on you.
Maybe I’ve watched too much Scooby-Doo. Remember?, “We would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for you meddling kids!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2QcCY8X87A4
LibertyBelle, I personally don’t condone peers hitting other peers because I think it can become a way for them to react when others say things they don’t like. Yes, fight back if you are physically being attacked or run if possible if you feel you are in physical danger.
A child that makes a racist, perverted, harassing, or threatening comment heard it somewhere, most likely from people s/he loves the most. Hitting them shows them that it’s not just home that is unsafe and/or cruel but that sometimes you get hit for repeating something that gets laughs and back-slaps somewhere else. Does the child’s behavior cause him to be abused or does the abuse cause the child’s behaviors?
She still tells the kids they shouldn’t listen to me but luckily they seem to like me
You have smart kids; they know a good dad when they see one! Thanks for standing up for those you see who are being harassed/abused, Jack. When I talked about females having to deal with catcalls, etc. I should have also mentioned that I know and have witnessed this happening to males, too (I have stepped in for them as well).
As far as the man who was stomped to death defending a woman who was being harassed: Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (Jn. 15:13)
Prax,
Its not victim blaming, its called setting yourself up to be a victim. Got it? The young woman set herself up. There are dangerous people out there, you protect yourself, you don’t count on their kindness.
Well Prax, you get your had bashed a few times, some of these ladies have gotten very vicious, and its likely you’d be a little jaded too. I have no doubt these men would help a woman truly in need. But even police will tell you domestic violence calls are the most dangerous to respond to, part of the reason being the woman may not view the police as her knights in shining armor and attack the police. I don’t pretend to understand it. But it is what it is, and police officers have the scars to prove it.
For heaven’s sakes Prax, I’m not saying you don’t try to help people. I’m pointing out that no matter how noble your intentions, you could end up getting hurt. My point is about confrontations and how potentially dangerous they can be. Its also about not setting yourself up to be a victim, like chasing a car and confronting the driver.
I seriously doubt that man intended to end up brain damaged in a nursing home. And for all I know maybe the woman was PO’d that he interfered. Ever thing of that possibility?
” A child that makes a racist, perverted, harassing, or threatening comment heard it somewhere, most likely from people s/he loves the most. Hitting them shows them that it’s not just home that is unsafe and/or cruel but that sometimes you get hit for repeating something that gets laughs and back-slaps somewhere else. Does the child’s behavior cause him to be abused or does the abuse cause the child’s behaviors?”
I think this is 100% correct. I have a real problem with thinking I was just a *bad* kid, and I’m pretty sure most adults who met me as a kid thought I was just an awful little brat. I remember being like five maybe, and some elderly man at church who loved kids tried to give me a hug, and I started screaming and biting him, Xalisae informed me that wasn’t exactly surprising behavior from a small child who’s experience of “affection” was mostly abuse. Which I have trouble believing, because I really was brainwashed, but I am trying.
Thanks for your insight about your feelings about your child when he was newborn and the way your ex-FIL confronted you, Jack. It is helpful for me to remember that not everything my ex did was intentional. He just didn’t know any better about a lot of it.
With your hindsight and experiences, you have so much to offer pregnant couples! I bet that there is a volunteer program at an area hospital or something that could really use you.
Well Prax, you get your had bashed a few times, some of these ladies have gotten very vicious, and its likely you’d be a little jaded too
What? Uh I’ve had my head bashed a few times. Been there, done that, escaped and received the medal in the mail. I’m sure that my having survived abuse is the main reason I am so darn meddling and work with the kids I do.
Had someone meddled with me sooner, maybe I would have left sooner. As it is, I finally did leave because my doctor meddled. Had someone meddled with my ex when he was a child (and I have talked with others who witnessed him being abused), maybe he would have made different choices.
Maybe you missed the part where I said, OTHER not SELF.
The only guarantee in life, Mary, is that there is no guarantee.
“Didn’t GZ end up in legal hot water?”
Asked and answered. Go read my response to this.
“Also, what happens if you accidentally injure an innocent person while following them? You cause an accident?”
You may be liable. Depends on the facts. We’re not talking about other actions a person might take, just following. All those things could happen if you didn’t follow someone first.
“I believe I only said that once. I did not say following was illegal but something may happen while you follow someone that gets you in trouble.”
At least twice. And you certainly indicated that you thought it could land you in some legitimate legal trouble (as opposed to fabricated, politically based ‘legal’ trouble).
“I was in a situation where another driver got angry with my driver and followed him, nearly causing an accident not to mention scaring the daylights out of me. Now if she caused and accident and caused some injuries?”
Did she just follow you or actually tailgate you /act in an aggressive manner. If the latter, that’s illegal, and aggressive, and threatening. If the former, she’s not responsible. I know these are complicated concepts.
“So tell me the crime TM was committing when GZ decided to follow him.”
None – I don’t accept your premise that one needs to be witnessing a crime to act in the benign manner of keeping track of someone they deem suspicious.
“As I said I support true heroism as much as the next person. I don’t support people setting themselves up to be victims or taking on the role of vigilante based only on a “suspicion” that someone is up to no good.”
You support ‘heroism’ based on perfect judgement and frankly prescience.
“CT, do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I said what the man did was very noble and heroic but its an example of what can happen in a confrontation, however noble your intention.”
Do you have a problem with it? I have not disagreed with you that confrontations can be dangerous. That is not the source of our disagreement. Go reread. And since you seem to forget what you post the actual progression of your commentary on this man was:
1. “ Its the foolishly dangerous and unnecessary ones that I warn people against.”
2. Then in response to Praxedes saying he was a hero: “However this young man died senselessly and horribly. Heroic? I think he was better described as chivalrous.”
3. Then when even Jack called you out, you said: ” I believe the poor man acted bravely and honorably.”
So it was you who first set him out as an example of a person making himself the victim by daring to confront someone in a situation that you deemed unnecessary for confrontation. Again, no one has disagreed that confrontations can be dangerous.
“Its one thing to intervene to help someone, its another to take it upon yourself to follow someone with a deadly weapon.”
Stop bringing up the deadly weapon. What if he followed him without one and the same scenario unfolded and Zimmerman killed him w/ his bare hands. You’d be making the same argument b/c you think all responsibility lies with the person who makes any benign step towards contact even if he’s keeping his distance and the other party initiates the actual confrontation.
“Oh, so are you saying there can be legal liablity if an NW volunteer carries a deadly weapon or confronts or follows someone?”
No I said that the rule is in place due to considerations of legal liability. I didn’t explain the nature or direction of the liability b/c you don’t give a crap. Despite your alleged disinterest in the law, you feel very free to make erroneous assumptions about the it.
“If I am in immediate danger I won’t object to someone being a hero. Anymore than I’d object to someone saving me from a house fire. However, that’s a far cry from me taking it upon myself to follow someone with a gun.”
Make sure you ask the person helping you if he followed the person first and if he has a gun on his person for protection. Do not accept any inappropriate help from people who are not actually heroes. You can’t be too careful. Zimmerman had the gun for protection. He did not chase him or follow him with his gun out or gun him down. You have no evidence that he did anything but keep his distance.
“Concerning the beauty queen, I’m stressing how someone can do something very foolhardy and dangerous, like follow and confront someone she doesn’t know, and end up dead as a result. Its not called victim blaming. Its called setting yourself up to be a victim. (emphasis added)“
So…the victim is to blame for creating the situation that made them a victim….
I don’t even know where else to go with that. It’s the textbook definition.
Hi Prax,
I meant the men, some of whom were physically as well as verbally attacked by the women they tried to help, sometime more than once. I am not unsympathetic to anyone’s plight of domestic violence. I couldn’t be happier for you that you escaped and wish you only a happy future. The city police made frequent visits to our house as I grew up and it wasn’t to sell tickets for Police Field Day. In fact, they became my brother’s role models and inspiration to be a police officer.
I’m just telling you what police have told me. The only time my brother pulled his weapon in self defense was at a domestic violence call. Another time he started up the sidewalk only to be facing a guy with a shotgun aimed right at him! Any police officer will tell you those are the absolutely most dangerous calls to respond to. Thankfully we have a domestic violence shelter in our community, which I support with donations. How I wish they existed when I was growing up!
Come to think of it, I never recall any public acknowledgement of this man by the wom(e)(a)n he helped and would pay with his life for. Even when he died, I don’t recall reading any public acknowledgement by them. No expressions of gratitude, acknowledgement of his courage and decency, nothing. Its possible I missed it. What a horrific thought that they may have aided and abetted in this man’s beating, I’m sorry to say I wouldn’t be surprised, or were indifferent to what happened to him, or that they’re more upset they have to go to the prison to visit those dirtballs.
Also, I wish you every success with your work with children.
“Hear! Hear! I’ll add Auntie Em’s words, ”And now – well, being a Christian woman, I can’t say it!”
That’s even better!
Hans I will say I find the guitar thing just slightly offensive directed at me, otherwise pretty funny.
CT,
However you slice it, GZ ended up in legal hot water. I wonder if he wishes he had just stayed in his vehicle. Its not like he stopped a crime or anything.
So there could be liability under certain circumstances? Interesting. In our lawsuit happy society I’m sure people could find plenty to sue about if they’re injured in any way trying to get away from you, or they mistake you for a predator and a fight ensues. I can think of any number of ways CT you could end up in court.
Yes people can and do foolishly put themselves in danger, that includes GZ following someone with a gun and that woman following a driver and then getting out of her vehicle and confronting him.
Where have I said anything bad about the young man? Please show me the post. Whether you think he’s chivalrous, heroic, or could have handled the situation another way, my point is that confrontations, however noble can be deadly. I use this case as a tragic example. What I hope is that the young women he tried to help didn’t assist in his beating. I never heard any kind of public gratitude or acknowledgement from them.
She was deliberately following, had been for a while though we tried to lose her, and nearly caused us to have an accident. She didn’t realize our driver had stopped and nearly slammed into the car.
So you acknowledge then that TM wasn’t committing a crime. He was “suspicious”, which is subjective and this gives one the right to follow and keep track in a “benign” manner. You call following someone with your loaded weapon “benign”? I call it asking for trouble.
Oh yes, you don’t want the deadly weapon brought up. Such a triviality. You still haven’t told me how you know for certain TM initiated the fight.
So enlighten me, what would the legal liabilities of an NW volunteer carrying a weapon or confronting someone be?
As I said CT, I have no objection to anyone being heroic. Its one thing to act to save a life or keep someone out of danger, its another to take it upon yourself to follow someone you deem suspicious with a loaded weapon.
No, the beauty queen wasn’t responsible for creating the situation that made her the victim. She put herself into a very dangerous situation when she took it upon herself to follow and confront the driver. She could have taken the license plate number and phoned it into the police. She’d probably still be alive if she had.
Let’s put it this way. Let’s say I warn you not to drive or walk through a very dangerous neighborhood. You do so anyway and end up barely escaping with your life. You didn’t create the dangerous neighborhood, you’re not responsible for the behavior of the residents, and they are not justifed in harming you. However, you put yourself in a very dangerous situation. Put simply, you set yourself up to be a victim.
Folks,
Since we’re discussing how people can unknowingly set themselves up to be victims, the following are pointers I’ve got from police officers that may keep you from becoming victims:
1. Vary your routine. Predators love routines, it makes preying on you very easy. For example, don’t jog or take a walk at the same time and place every day. Especially avoid isolated areas.
2. Be careful not to park next to a van with a sliding door. Great way for a predator to grab and go.
3.A simple dollar store high pitched alarm on your door can send a B&E man running. For all he knows you’re sitting there with a shotgun waiting for him to come in.
4. If you suspect someone has broken into your house, leave immediately. The intruder may still be in there. Do not corner the person or try to trap him. It could be deadly.
Actually Mary I have been thinking on all this for the last couple days and everything we’ve said versus what everyone else has said, and I think that they do have a point with the claim that we have been victim blaming. I think they are saying that there’s a difference between “it’s a bad idea to do this, you might get hurt”, and “you’re setting yourself up to be a victim (meaning, this is your fault)”. One’s a warning, one’s saying “you’re culpable for what’s happening to you”. It’s like, I used to as a teenager get angry with my mom, and I would mouth off to her at every opportunity and she’d hit me. I think it’s fair enough to say that I was responsible for putting myself into a bad situation by doing things I knew would make her mad, but I think what everyone is saying, and what Carla and Xalisae tell me all the time, that I wasn’t setting myself up to be a victim and it doesn’t mean that I was at fault for it. It doesn’t mean I wasn’t making the same stupid decision and I should have kept my mouth shut or left home way earlier than I did (that would have kept me away from my dad too, who was worse than my mom in different ways), but I think that what people are saying is that any dumb decisions on the part of the victim doesn’t lessen the culpability of the person who chooses violence, and I just can’t see it because I have “dysfunctional thinking” I think someone called it.
what people are saying is that any dumb decisions on the part of the victim doesn’t lessen the culpability of the person who chooses violence
This.
Was GZ taking his life in his hands by getting out of the car with the gun to locate TM? Yes. Is it possible that this could have been averted? Yes. Does that make it GZ’s fault that he was beaten? No. The question, then, is whether or not he made a rash decision by shooting Trayvon Martin. I will say, from what I’ve heard from him since, I worry that he at times seems to have no regret or feeling of responsibility for TM’s death. I pray that this is media bias, and if not, that he accepts his part in the death of TM and seeks forgiveness.
By the way, Jack, as the mother to three (two born so far ;) ) and the oldest of 10, I wanted to weigh in that I spent many many nights when my first was born crying over how I couldn’t do it anymore, I couldn’t handle it, I was ruining his life, and he was killing me and driving me insane. Despite spending my entire life around babies, I was completely overwhelmed, exhausted, and lost when it came to my own son. My husband was similarly affected. It’s called being a new parent… you just have to make yourself do it. I’m glad you were able to come out of yourself (sounds like you were actually experiencing a form of depression, but I’m no psychiatrist) and take care of your kiddo. :)
” I will say, from what I’ve heard from him since, I worry that he at times seems to have no regret or feeling of responsibility for TM’s death.”
Despite my feelings that he had better choices, I do think that this might have something to do with media scrutiny before his trial. I feel like his lawyers would instruct him to not to take responsibility for the death while he was still going to be going through a trial, aren’t public statements admissible in court?
I will say, I will probably have no respect for his character if he doesn’t soon release some type of statement to the public saying how sorry he is that Trayvon is dead and how he wishes that the night had gone differently. He doesn’t have to say that he was at fault or anything like that, but I think he really does owe it to Trayvon’s family to express remorse for his death. If one of my children (God forbid) ever die, even if it was a tragic accident or they were committing a crime and were killed in the process, I would want the person involved in their death to express remorse for my child’s life. Everyone’s life is important even if they made a fatal mistake, and even if you kill someone in self-defense I would worry about someone’s conscience if they had no sadness or remorse about it. Human life is valuable even if you’re a thief or a drug addict or you hit someone. I get really uncomfortable when people basically celebrate people’s deaths.
“By the way, Jack, as the mother to three (two born so far ) and the oldest of 10, I wanted to weigh in that I spent many many nights when my first was born crying over how I couldn’t do it anymore, I couldn’t handle it, I was ruining his life, and he was killing me and driving me insane. Despite spending my entire life around babies, I was completely overwhelmed, exhausted, and lost when it came to my own son. My husband was similarly affected. It’s called being a new parent… you just have to make yourself do it. I’m glad you were able to come out of yourself (sounds like you were actually experiencing a form of depression, but I’m no psychiatrist) and take care of your kiddo. ”
Thanks for this. Actually my daughter (second born) was way worse about the crying than my son (she had colic just like I did as a baby, non-stop crying for two months unless one of us was walking her around in circles without stopping), but by the time she came along I was a lot better at parenting. I still felt like I was going insane though lol. And you’re right, I have been diagnosed with major depression and PTSD and another disorder, and at the time I was doing that stupid thing of not taking my meds because they made me feel “flat” (which is somehow worse than feeling suicidal and barely being able to function? I’m dumb) but fortunately my mother-in-law basically forced me (as in making a doctor’s appt and showing up at the house and making me go) and they got me on better meds that work better. That helped a lot. I think that people, especially newer parents, really need to watch out for mental health issues, especially if they have a history of abuse which usually exacerbates mental health issues.
Man so many ladies who post here are pregnant. LibertyBelle and JoAnna and you too. That’s awesome, congratulations MaryRose.
Come to think of it, I never recall any public acknowledgement of this man by the wom(e)(a)n he helped and would pay with his life for. Even when he died, I don’t recall reading any public acknowledgement by them. No expressions of gratitude, acknowledgement of his courage and decency, nothing.
And that’s okay. Because it was about her to him, not himself. He did what he thought was the right thing to do because it was the right thing to do, not because he wanted acknowledgement or a thank you card.
what people are saying is that any dumb decisions on the part of the victim doesn’t lessen the culpability of the person who chooses violence
Yes!! Other than maybe I’d replace the word ‘dumb’ with ‘naive’ or ‘misguided’ or ‘trusting.’
I’m dumb
No, you’re not. When I got into counseling I used to say quite often “I’m dumb.” or “I can’t believe I made such dumb decisions.” My counselor corrected me and said I wasn’t dumb. Just naive and trusting. She told me I see the world through my eyes and because I would never rape, hit, strangle, etc. someone, I didn’t expect it to happen to me. That blind trust thing. I now do make safer decisions but I will never stop stepping in when I feel I can without being hurt.
Thanks :)
Hi Prax,
Maybe, maybe not. She may have helped the guys beat him. It wouldn’t surprise me.
I just know if someone made such a sacrifice for me, I would definitely make a public acknowledgement and thank you.
Jack,
Sorry about the El Kabong reference. It did trivialize what happened in your case.
Back to catching up on the thread. This heat wave has clipped this Night Owl’s wings. :(
Hi Jack,
As always I respect your input.
My only purpose has been to point out that certain behavior can make us vulnerable. That’s not blaming the victim, its simply stating a fact. Its doesn’t make us responsible for the criminal’s action. But the world is full of dangerous people and knowing how we may be making it easier for them to victimize us, sometimes by everyday actions we may not even think about, such as taking our routine morning walk, may very well save out lives.
Hi Hans,
When GZ took his gun and followed someone, he took on the responsiblity for his safety, and putting others at serious risk…
Hans do you have any idea what was going through TM’s mind? Do you know whether or not he truly feared for his safety? Do you know who started the fight and why? TM isn’t here to answer those questions and as such, we can never know.
Mary,
According to Jentel, who was talking to him those last few minutes, he was bugged about this “creepy a… dude” following from afar. She told him to run because he might be a pervert or a cop or something.
Just before the phone went dead she pretty much agrees with what GZ said. Trayvon says, “Why you following me?” and GZ sounds kind of surprised, “What? No.” It sounds exactly like he was a bit stunned by someone coming out of the dark. Not like he “confronted” him like a in Wild West duel in the sun.
Jentel says she heard a thump and the phone went dead. That was either the phone being dropped, or more likely the simultaneous first sucker punch by Trayvon. What evidence we have indicates that TM was the instigator. GZ sounded too taken aback in both accounts to be the agressor.
The best eyewitness says George was flat on his back being pummeled and not fighting back. The earwitnesses and 911 call indicate someone in pain and anguish. The gun wasn’t drawn until the final second, ending the “fight”.
“I think they are saying that there’s a difference between “it’s a bad idea to do this, you might get hurt”, and “you’re setting yourself up to be a victim (meaning, this is your fault)””
Exactly. I feel like doing a Jersey fist pump (and I hate that crap).
“I can think of any number of ways CT you could end up in court.”
Oh I’m sure you can and no doubt the theories of liability are entertaining. You do realize that ending up in court does not mean you actually have any legal liability, right? Is your standard for “legal hot water” just that ‘something’ might happen that lands you in a court room? If so, let me advise you with 100% certainty that there is no action or inaction you can take at any point in your day or night that has no potential to land you in your kind of legal hot water.
”What I hope is that the young women he tried to help didn’t assist in his beating. I never heard any kind of public gratitude or acknowledgement from them.”
Irrelevant to the moral correctness of his behavior.
“So you acknowledge then that TM wasn’t committing a crime.”
Are you even reading my responses? I said it is irrelevant whether he was or was not. I don’t care if he was sitting there playing candy land when Zimmerman got out of his car. My argument would remain the same.
“You call following someone with your loaded weapon “benign”?”
Yes, without more.
“Oh yes, you don’t want the deadly weapon brought up. Such a triviality. You still haven’t told me how you know for certain TM initiated the fight.”
It is a triviality to your “argument” which is that you are responsible for all illegal events that unfold if you do anything that jeopardizes your safety without 100% certainty that your action is absolutely necessary to stop a crime in immediate progress and will not end in injury before police would have possibly arrived. Whether you are armed when you make yourself a victim is irrelevant to your argument. I don’t know for certain that Martin started the fight. The evidence suggests it. No evidence exists to the contrary. If Zimmerman started the fight then he got away with murder (which was the right legal outcome given the ridiculous lack of evidence for the prosecution). But he didn’t start the fight when he got out of his car.
“Folks,Since we’re discussing how people can unknowingly set themselves up to be victims, the following are pointers I’ve got from police officers that may keep you from becoming victims:”
Excellent advice, I highly encourage it! However if you don’t follow these pointers (and even if you do the exact opposite), you are not responsible for any violence that comes your way or that you have to engage in to defend yourself. It also says nothing about the moral correctness of your actions before the illegal violence.
Mary, you’re not even trying to respond to what I’m saying. Your mental gymnastics on your concepts of appropriate courage, heroism, and victim blaming are stunning and impenetrable. So I’m calling it quits on this discussion.
Mary,
I wonder if he wishes he had just stayed in his vehicle. Its not like he stopped a crime or anything.
Maybe he does. But he wasn’t ORDERED to stay in the car. They did ask where Trayvon went and where he was hanging around the most. George decided to get a little more information for when they arrived, such as the specific address and whether he was still in sight.
He did stop a crime. Assault and battery, perhaps with the intent to kill.
Yes people can and do foolishly put themselves in danger, that includes GZ following someone with a gun
And if he followed someone with a Rolex watch would he be asking to be mugged? Following someone with a concealed weapon is immaterial, as CT said. It’s only threatening if it’s drawn, like he was hunting a rabbit.
Oh yes, you don’t want the deadly weapon brought up. Such a triviality. You still haven’t told me how you know for certain TM initiated the fight.
Answered in this and the last post. I don’t know for certain that O.J. Simpson wasn’t set up by a Misssion Impossible team traveling back in time from the Starship Enterprise. I highly doubt it, though.
“I will say, I will probably have no respect for his character if he doesn’t soon release some type of statement to the public saying how sorry he is that Trayvon is dead and how he wishes that the night had gone differently.”
Zimmerman has actually stated on multiple occassions (his bond hearing, interviews prior to trial) that he was sorry that Martin was dead and sorry that the Martins had to bury their son. I don’t want to hold things up with links, but you can google it and see videos. His parents have also expressed sorrow and sympathy for the Martin family.
CT,
I realize that ending up in court doesn’t mean you are guilty or have any liability, but innocent people have gone bankrupt proving their innocence or protecting themselves from lawsuits.
Speaking of not reading what someone is saying. When I give pointers on how to avoid being a crime victim, I in no way suggest someone is responsible for being a victim. I post them hoping someone will be spared from being a victim
Rather than go round and round on the same issues, I think we can agree on one point. George Zimmerman probably wishes he had stayed in his SUV that nite and let the police do their job.
I think the media down here is more biased than I thought (a lot of Southern Florida is heavily Democrat). I’ve never seen his statements that he was sorry. It’s an important thing for public opinion.
And lol it’s cool Hans. I was just like “well, it’s not like a huge deal to hit me but I didn’t think it was actually funny to people”.
Hi Hans, 12:10PM
I read your account and again, its up to interpretation. The phone being dropped could have been Trayvon ducking a punch from GZ or GZ grabbing him. This could have escalated to a sucker punch. Again TM is not here to give his side of the story or tell us if he was reacting out of fear for his safety.
I’m sure GZ was stunned. Trayvon may not have been coming out of the dark, he may have suddenly turned around and confronted GZ, who Trayvon indicates is following him.
Its why you don’t take it upon yourself to follow people Hans. What if TM had a gun or a couple of unseen accomplices?
Hi Hans 12:47PM
GZ is also recorded saying “the a####s always get away” and f***g punks or c***s, I heard the recording and it sounds like the latter. He sounded to me like a man n a mission. No, not to kill someone, but more like this one isn’t getting away. You draw your own conclusions.
He was advised the police were on their way and there was no need to follow. He says he was checking the address. Did he indeed stop following when advised to and was he really checking an address?
Assault and battery? Are you justified to deck someone in self defense? Do we know that TM didn’t think he was acting in self defense, especially if GZ may have grabbed or swung at him?
Following someone is dangerous with or without a weapon. There was no need for GZ to follow TM, he took it upon himself to do so and with a loaded gun, against the advise of 911. Turns out the person killed had a legitimate reason to be in the neighborhood and was committing no crime.
As I’ve said Hans, my brother has directed and trained NW for 20 years and the rules I mentioned about no guns or confrontations, including following,are strictly adhered to for a reason, to prevent a tragedy like GZ/TM.
Hi Jack,
I read that that TM’s parents have said their religious convictions dictate they must forgive, but forgiveness comes with the healing process, and that will take a long,long, time.
I believe he did apologize once before but the parents rejected it. I can’t find a source right now but Im sure I saw it on TV.
I’m definitely in a more biased area because they haven’t shown ANY of that on tv and all the media input I’m getting is stuff about him saying it was “God’s plan” that he shoot TM and no regrets and whatnot… I’ll look it up, but it’s reassuring to hear that there is in fact another side to that.
“No, you’re not. When I got into counseling I used to say quite often “I’m dumb.” or “I can’t believe I made such dumb decisions.” My counselor corrected me and said I wasn’t dumb. Just naive and trusting. She told me I see the world through my eyes and because I would never rape, hit, strangle, etc. someone, I didn’t expect it to happen to me. That blind trust thing. I now do make safer decisions but I will never stop stepping in when I feel I can without being hurt.”
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. And you’re definitely not dumb! I do feel like I’m stupid, but I wonder if I’m just judging myself by too high of standards, Maybe I’m just of normal intelligence and am too hard on myself for making fairly normal mistakes. And I think people might have been a little hard on me if they don’t realize that sometimes I accept completely screwed up things because I don’t realize they’re out of line (that’s why I ask Xalisae if something is considered normal or not, because sometimes I just don’t know). Not to absolve myself of responsibility for doing wrong things, I realize I’m not like a normal good person, but I do think people might have criticized me too harshly over my life and I think it might have done some additional damage.
Mary, today you say, “She may have helped the guys beat him. It wouldn’t surprise me.”
But yesterday you said, “Like the reality of the young man I saw who got his head stomped to mush when confronting a couple of dirtbags who were harassing a woman.”
If you saw the two dirtbags harassing a woman, then saw a bystanding man confront the dirtbags, then saw the bystander get stomped by the two dirtbags, how do you not know if the harassed woman helped the dirtbags beat the bystander? Did the woman get charged with anything? Did you leave the scene of the stomping? Am I missing something?
but forgiveness comes with the healing process, and that will take a long,long, time.
Not necessarily. Some people never forgive. Some people forgive immediately for a similar crime. Time may heal or cause memories to fade but forgiveness is a choice.
I believe he did apologize once before but the parents rejected it.
Maybe the parents could start with apologizing for their child beating on Zimmerman. I’ve heard other parent’s apologize for the crimes their child committed before their life was taken. What if Martin was beating a gun-less Zimmerman and an officer came along and shot Martin to death? Would Martin’s family apologize for their son beating Zimmerman then?
He did stop a crime. Assault and battery, perhaps with the intent to kill.
Absolutely.
Martin’s parents did reject the apology and Zimmerman’s attorney ended up issuing an apology for the apology saying that they didn’t realize it would be seen as inappropriate. maybe in time…
“Maybe the parents could start with apologizing for their child beating on Zimmerman. I’ve heard other parent’s apologize for the crimes their child committed before their life was taken. ”
I think Martin’s parents are still in the anger/blame stage of their grief, by all accounts. They also feel like justice was not done, and I don’t believe from their statements that they feel as though Trayvon was the aggressor. That’s a natural enough feeling, I can’t imagine losing my child and I feel as though I would be looking for someone to blame. Maybe in time they will look at it differently, it’s just hard because Zimmerman can provide reasonable doubt and the facts seem to fit his version of events, but there is no way to prove to the Martin family that Trayvon was the person who hit first.
sometimes I accept completely screwed up things because I don’t realize they’re out of line
I think this is a “normal” result of being in abusive relationship(s). Abnormal becomes normal or everything has always been a bit abnormal so there is no foundation to base anything on.
I apologize for the times I have been hard on you, Jack. Sometimes I think, “he can’t be for real, can he?” Then I come back down to Earth and remember how much I have changed since I was your age. I also have to tell myself that I am sure many others ask themselves about me, “she can’t be for real, can she?” and how much more I have yet to learn.
Example: Towards the end of my marriage, I found out my ex was getting pretty serious with his mistress (it wasn’t until later that I found out he had been seeing her for about ten of the 13 years we were together).
Anyway, when he told me he was in love with her, I can remember thinking, “I can make this marriage work if he will keep his visits to her to just a few times a week.” If I had a guest room, I would have probably fixed it up for her and added a dozen roses and chocolate bedside! I was beat-down in so many ways that I really did not see an escape from the life I had, he had so much control over me and it had become my normal. When people wonder why some abused people don’t leave, I get it.
That’s why once we know better, I believe we are all obligated to help and stick our necks out if possible, even if we may unintentionally be putting ourselves at risk. There will always be people that think we are stupid to meddle and should live mostly for ourselves but someday it might be them who is in need of a hero.
I think Martin’s parents are still in the anger/blame stage of their grief, by all accounts.
Yes, It didn’t come out clearly and after I reread that paragraph I see how cold hearted it sounds. I was trying to get at that both sides are hurting but I totally agree that losing a child would be the worse end to be on, no matter how their life ended. I think it is natural for most parents to want to see the best in their child. I guess one can apologize for a death even if they don’t agree that they did anything morally wrong in causing it.
When you read that paragraph, did you think, “Praxedes can’t be for real, can she?” (:
“I apologize for the times I have been hard on you, Jack. Sometimes I think, “he can’t be for real, can he?” Then I come back down to Earth and remember how much I have changed since I was your age. I also have to tell myself that I am sure many others ask themselves about me, “she can’t be for real, can she?” and how much more I have yet to learn.”
Lol you don’t have to apologize. I make most people mad and I get why, I don’t think correctly and I believe weird things that are totally out of line. I used to do really weird things like get mad when people told me my kids were cute (they are literally the cutest kids ever so most people tell me they’re adorable). I would just think “what perverts why are they looking at my kids? they need to leave them alone”. And my ex would get so mad at me, like when we’d go to church and women would ask to hold our adorable baby and I’d tell them no. I didn’t get it’s normal for adults to think kids are cute and want to hold babies. I offended so many people. So I get why people get mad at me and I realize I deserve it, I’m not trying to say “oh poor me people should be nice to me”. I just think it causes more damage because people don’t explain what I did wrong in the first place and then I just get ashamed and I don’t know how to fix it.
And I don’t think you wanting to appease your ex and stay with him was abnormal at all, I’ve read that’s really common in abusive relationships where the victim is a woman and the perpetrator is a man. It’s called “learned helplessness” I’ve read.
“Yes, It didn’t come out clearly and after now that I reread that paragraph I see how cold hearted it sounds. I was trying to get at that both sides are hurting but I totally agree that losing a child would be the worse end to be on, no matter how their life ended. I think it is natural for most parents to want to see the best in their child. I guess one can apologize for a death even if they don’t agree that they did anything morally wrong in causing it”
I didn’t think you sounded cold-hearted, I just wanted to point out that the parents I’ve seen that apologize for their dead child’s accidents sometimes take years to get to that place. I read a really sad article by Dylan Klebold’s mother, one of the Columbine shooters, where she says that her grief caused her to not want to admit the kind of damage her son caused and she could barely live with the guilt and torment. This was a recent article and the Columbine shooting happened when I was like eleven or something. So sometimes it can take years.
Hi Pax,
I have pointed out that men attempting to help women have been verbally and physically attacked by the women they intended to help. Police officers often face this situation when responding to domestic violence calls. I think its entirely possible the woman or women this young man was trying to help may have done the same. Sadly it wouldn’t surprise me. I don’t know. I can only hope it wasn’t the case. I never heard of any woman being charged but again that doesn’t prove anything. Maybe the woman remained in private contact with the family during the years in the nursing home and after he died, and expressed her gratitude and condolences. I would hope that would be the case. It might offer some solace to the young man’s brother, the family’s only surviving member.
Trayvon’s parents made those comments, not me.
GZ stopped a crime, assault and battery with perhaps intent to kill. Or could it be TM thought he was acting in self defense? Only TM could tell us what he thought and intended and if he feared for his safety.
Oh Prax. :( It seems I find myself in a position to take back what I said. You’re right and I fully acknowledge that I am a fool. And possibly also a pugnacious, belligerent idiot. This topic apparently hit a nerve I’d thought buried pretty deep. And I won’t go into all the sordid details but I do totally have a tendency to lash out in disproportion to threats – real and imagined – against those I love to spare them pain I myself have felt. It’s a burning conflagration of my humanity, Irish, Italian, Welsh roots, and an irrational belief that I can somehow rid my corner of the world of injustice by…. what? Loudly protesting it and beating bad guys up? Looks like I’m better suited for a comic strip – sans the tights though. I assuredly would not look good in tights.
In other news, I’ve also been a little twerky lately because I’m apparently about to go into labor.
No worries, LibertyBelle. We all have buried nerves.
I had to look up “pugnacious” and don’t remember ever coming across it before. After I read the definition, I thought, “I finally found the word that really helps to describes me!” It even sounds good with with my name – Pugnacious Praxedes.
I am so happy and excited that you and your family will soon get to see your little one face to faces!
This has been a nice thread. But JDC is still weird.
That’s exciting LibertyBelle, I hope things go well and you’ll be in my thoughts.
Congratulations, LibertyBelle! Best wishes for your family!
Congratulations, LibertyBelle! I hope the conference of personhood goes well. :)
Sorry Praxedes I misstated myself on my last comment to you:
“I just think it causes more damage because people don’t explain what I did wrong in the first place and then I just get ashamed and I don’t know how to fix it. ”
I didn’t mean people don’t explain what I did wrong, people always tell me I’ve said or done something wrong. I know you have told me something I’ve written is not right. I meant that I wish that people would explain WHY something is wrong. I used to tell my ex “I don’t understand why you’re hitting me” and she’d say “because you said [blank]!” but it didn’t really fix anything because I didn’t get why [blank] was wrong. Like lol I didn’t get that when your wife asks you “is that woman over there attractive?” she’s looking for affirmation and doesn’t want an honest answer. So sorry Prax I didn’t explain myself well.
Prax, it’s one of my favorite words. :)
Thanks, y’all. Thoughts and prayers are appreciated! My son has yet to pass through the Magical Personhood Portal but he is determined to make an appearance sometime. So we shall see…. Woohoo! He’s our first so I may disappear again into the Blur. But one day, I’ll return.
Looking forward to rocking out in the delivery room – even if that party starts at 2 am….
Mary, I apologize, I missed the comment you directed towards me earlier.
” My only purpose has been to point out that certain behavior can make us vulnerable. That’s not blaming the victim, its simply stating a fact. Its doesn’t make us responsible for the criminal’s action. But the world is full of dangerous people and knowing how we may be making it easier for them to victimize us, sometimes by everyday actions we may not even think about, such as taking our routine morning walk, may very well save out lives.”
I don’t think anyone is saying that some actions don’t carry risk. What they’ve been saying, and I finally understand (took me long enough lol), is that you’re basically saying the victim has culpability for other people’s actions if you say things like they’re “setting themselves up to be a victim”. If you said that to Zimmerman (assuming his story is 100% accurate), you would be victim blaming because he didn’t set himself up, he took a risky action like we all do. Even driving is a risky action. I accepted that this would be an appropriate thing to say to or about Zimmerman because I blame myself for violence against me that wasn’t really my fault, and now I’m starting to wonder what is going on with you that is causing you to feel this way (not being mean, I’m just wondering). Victim blaming can really screw you up. When I finally told my wife that my father had molested and raped me, and it lasted until I was seventeen (thought I am pretty sure she strongly suspected something like that before I told her), she told me she didn’t think I had responsibility for anything that happened when I was small, but she thought less of me for not leaving/fighting/telling the cops or otherwise doing something to end the abuse when I was older, for allowing it to happen so long when I was old enough to do something. She also said it grossed her out but I don’t know if that’s victim blaming, it hurt though. The stupid thing is I didn’t see anything wrong with what she said to me for a long time. I accepted it, hated myself just that much more, and figured that if someone who loved me and was my partner in life thought it was my fault, it must be. I didn’t even realize that she had said anything wrong (and I obviously still have a lot of trouble rejecting her opinion) until I told Carla and Xalisae about it much later and they were both horrified by her saying that. I wasn’t doing anything wrong by living in my parents home as minor, they said, that’s a perfectly okay thing for a kid to do, and I don’t have responsibility for what they decided to do. It put me at pretty much 100% for further abuse, and it might have been a stupid pathetic decision, but I wasn’t setting myself up, they were (I have trouble believing all this but I trust that they are correct and it’s not my fault).
So I get why I didn’t see anything wrong with blaming Zimmerman (assuming his story is correct), because of my issues, but I don’t get why you do.
Hi Jack,
I’m horrified to hear what happened to you as a child. I grew up in domestic violence. My brother was a policeman with a long and distinguished career, his role models were the police officers who made frequent visits to our home. I was also sexually abused. No one has any less tolerance for rape, abuse, or criminals of any kind than I have.
One thing Big Joe pounded into my head was “Mary, don’t set yourself up to be a victim!” anytime I did something he thought made me vulnerable, like grocery shopping at nite, which I loved to do. It was my time!
The world is full of dangerous people, don’t make it easy for them, was Big Joe’s message. There are things we do every day without thinking that makes it easy for them.
GZ put himself in a very dangerous position when he made the choice to follow TM, he set himself up to be a victim. Personally I’m not buying the whole story, but that aside, isn’t it easy to see how he set himself up to be a victim? TM could have had a gun or accomplices. He could have been deranged. GZ could easily have wound up dead. GZ, while maybe thinking he had the power and “upper hand” a gun will give him, made the very unwise decision to follow someone. That is why I urge people on this blog, and elsewhere, to never take it upon themselves to follow someone or get into confrontations. Life and death situations are one thing,I support and admire heroism as much as anyone. Taking it upon yourself to play free lance police officer is another. A young man is dead because of it. IMO, TM is the victim, not GZ.
Concerning the beauty queen, her death was senseless and tragic, and totally avoidable by exercising good judgment. She put herself in a very dangerous situation by following and confronting what turned out to be a car full of desperate criminals. We can’t really know who we’re following or confronting, right? Probably young and very naive, or not as tough and streetwise as she thought she was. None of us is much of a match for a bullet. Her car getting hit was not a life and death situation. She could have phoned it in to the police. Instead she made a very serious error in judgement and it cost her life. That’s not blaming the victim, that’s stating a fact. Let it also be a lesson to those who think following is somehow “benign” or can be safely done. It may be legal, but it can result in a deadly confrontation and hopefully people will think twice.
Let’s say Jack that I tell you I drove through a very dangerous neighborhood and somene shot at my car. Your response would likely be “Mary, what the hell are you doing driving through that neighborhood? You know how dangerous it is! You’re lucky you didn’t get killed! You’re probably thinking, “dumb broad must have a death wish”! Are you blaming the victim? No, you realize I set myself up to be a victim.
I don’t think groceries stories should be allowed to open past 5 pm.
That’s all.
Well Prax,
I’m old enough to remember when they weren’t! Open until 9PM on Fri and Sat. and closed on Sundays.
Times do change!
Oops, I meant “grocery stores” not “groceries stories.”
I must have been thinking about the Veggie Tales again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Jmg86CRBBtw
” Let’s say Jack that I tell you I drove through a very dangerous neighborhood and somene shot at my car. Your response would likely be “Mary, what the hell are you doing driving through that neighborhood? You know how dangerous it is! You’re lucky you didn’t get killed! You’re probably thinking, “dumb broad must have a death wish”! Are you blaming the victim? No, you realize I set myself up to be a victim. ”
Well I live in a rough neighborhood, so I probably wouldn’t say “you’re stupid” I would say “hi!”.
In all seriousness, no, I would probably be pissed at the people who shot at you.
For everyone who shops, day or night:
While darkness is the predator’s friend, they don’t disappear when the sun comes up.
1.When leaving the store do not be fumbling with your groceries or purse. Be continally alert, look around, look behind you. That tells a predator you are on the alert and takes away his element of surprise. It makes his job a lot easier if your attention is diverted.
2.Have your keys in your fisted hand with the sharp ends of the keys protruding. A great weapon, one the predator doesn’t expect, and it can buy you time to get away.
3.Be wary if there’s a van with a sliding door on either side of your vehicle.
4.As you load your groceries, make sure you remain alert and watching. Don’t let the predator think you have let down your guard.
5.Lock yourself in your vehicle as soon as you get in. Fumble with the seatbelt, etc after.
6. Trust your instincts. If its nite, or even day, and the parking lot is empty, or your “sixth sense” just tells you its not safe, ask if the store provides a security escort. If not, call the police and request an escort. I was surprised when the self defense expert said you have a right as a citizen to do this.
7. Be careful when speaking on a cell phone in public. You may be giving a predator a lot of very valuable info about yourself.
8. If you have mail in your vehicle and park somewhere. Make sure the addresses don’t show. Your return sticker will tell a predator where to find you.
Oh and guys, when you leave the bank shoving your wallet into your back pocket or into your brief case, you’re telling the predator you just made a withdrawal and probably have a sizable amount of cash. Ladies, never leave cash in the bank envelope, put it in your wallet. The predator in the grocery line behind you may take notice.
Just a few more pointers on how to avoid being a victim.
BTW, I still love to shop at nite!
Hi Prax, 12:20PM
LOL. That’s the mom in you!
Hi Jack 12:41PM
LOL. Well my friend your neighborhood cannot be as bad as some of the ones in my old hometown. People don’t live in them, they’re literally battlegrounds.
I’m sure you would be angry someone shot at me, but I’m sure you would advise me never to go near that neighborhood again i.e. Don’t set yourself up to get killed Mary!
There’s more:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/-obama–trayvon-martin-%E2%80%98could-have-been-me-35-years-ago%E2%80%99–180734663.html
“There’s more:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/-obama–trayvon-martin-%E2%80%98could-have-been-me-35-years-ago%E2%80%99–180734663.html“
Ugh, of course Obama responded in the stupidest, most dicivisive way possible. What else would he do?
Yeah, so Obama could have beaten someone within an inch of their life for following him. Nice to know. Apparently all the weed he smoked in his choom gang didn’t calm him down either.
Hi Hans, Navi, and JDC,
Obama is just being the flaming narcissist he is. Its always about ME.
Come on, would any of us tell the parents of a dead child that if I had a son/ daughter, they would look just like your dead child?
Someone should tell the Dear Leader that sincere condolences, and not your life story, are what is appropriate.
*divisive ugh, that’s a bad typo even by my standards
“Yeah, so Obama could have beaten someone within an inch of their life for following him. Nice to know.”
See, this is why I think that you guys are the ones turning it into a “good versus evil” thing, not me. Zimmerman wasn’t beaten within an inch of his life. JoAnna posted the medical report on the other thread, he had one laceration on the back of his head, and abrasion on his forehead, and a bleeding/tender nose. I don’t see how that’s a severe beating “within an inch of his life” in any stretch of the imagination.
I seriously am starting to feel like I live on a completely different planet than most people lol.
He had three definite cuts on the back of his head from pounds to the pavement. You could see three different bandaids in the filmed runthrough he gave the detective. And at least as many abrasions from scrapes – probably from his resisting enough not to have made a direct thudding.
http://thatmarriedguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ht_george_zimmerman_injuries_ll_120517_wg-500×281.jpg
And here’s his nose just hours later. My brother broke his nose pole vaulting and I did by fainting face-first from over-medication. It looked nothing like that. But that was only the first punch. He was also battered around the face, hence the abrasion on Trayvon’s knuckles.
Yeah, like I said, maybe I just live on some different planet, but those pics and the medical report don’t look like a guy who was seriously beaten. At all. I think we have different definitions of serious beatings.
I guess so. You’ve certainly lived an eventful life. I’ve never had more than a bread board swat or two back in the last Ice Age.
Here’s the bloody nose photo. And again, that shows a heckuva good first punch.
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/images/2013/05/george-zimmerman-bloody-nose-052113.jpg
When you’re flat on the ground that suddenly, your head swimming, feeling like you’ve been transported underwater, helpless to fight off head slams and face-battering…
Well, I totally buy the yelps for help, and also the story that Trayvon tried to muffle him. I think GZ was probably confused about his hand also on his nose – it probably felt numb so he surmised that. (And lying back, he wouldn’t have been bleeding much from there anyway. That’s the first thing they tell you to do for nose bleeds. I don’t think rain washing away evidence was a necessary explanation for that.)
All right, I’m done. We’re beginning to rival an Ex-GOP and truthseeker Obamacare thread.
I guess, I just look at some pics and think “jeez my face looked worse when my wife was done with me half the time, and you all joke about that!” lol. I guess I’m just being unfair to old GZ. I really hope he’s safe, he’s got a ridiculous amount of death threats. His family got a lot and Martin’s family got some too. This is getting pretty horrifying.
I’ve had my nose broken. My face looked worse the following day than it did when I was in the hospital hours later. By the next day my face was swollen and my eyes were black and blue. The whites of my eyes were red, my teeth were loose and even my gums were blackened and bleeding.
jeez my face looked worse when my wife was done with me half the time, and you all joke about that
We don’t all joke about that. There was the guitar cartoon but I added that sometimes we have to laugh or else we’d cry. You mentioned how it made you feel and Hans apologized.
You have consistently been told here that you do not deserve to be hit even if you were being a jerk. I have also told you on another thread that I don’t think standing there and allowing someone to hit you in the head is a good idea.
Jack, I agree that you have been unfair to GZ. No one here has said he is perfect but no one deserves to get beat up for not being perfect, including you. You trivialize people beating up other people, including yourself, and downplay injuries. Anytime someone receives blows to the head, it is serious.
I am not perfect but if anyone ever beats me up again, I will do whatever is necessary to stop them.
Yeah I think I might have become cold to violence unless it’s committed against women or children, might be a side effect of people using it against me so often. It gets to where it just seems like a thing that just happens. I finally did see what you all were saying about victim blaming, though, I can learn.
And I really hope no one goes after Zimmerman. The Black Panthers put a hit out on him, which I think is just disgusting. Apparently he’s gone into hiding and his parents haven’t even gotten to see him since the trial.
I never heard that about that Black Panthers. Ugh! That is totally disgusting.
FYI, I’ve learned from you on here too, Jack, and I’m sure others would say the same.
Here’s a nice story: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-emerged-hiding-rescue-family-trapped-suv/story?id=19735432
I really do wish he’d leave Florida for a few months or at least go hang out in the panhandle for a while. I really am worried someone will take him out. But then again I was worried someone would kill Casey Anthony too and she’s still okay, but more people seem to want George dead than her.
I really have to get out more. Nothing interesting happens to me. But no murder trials, please.
I was in Florida in ’69 and ’70 in March and it was blazing humid and hot. I don’t know how they can live anywhere but right on the shore, especially in August.
I laugh at tourists who can’t handle the heat and humidity. It’s only like 90 right now with 60% humidity last I checked. ;)
So now it’s my turn to be laughed at, huh Jack? :)
You’re too blond to handle it Hans. Lol. I feel bad for the blond and pale people who come down here and end up looking like tomatoes. I offer them sunscreen if I see them on the beach, they seem to forget they have to reapply it.
Yes, I used to peel like wood shavings in wood shop. I live a vampire’s hours now.
Haha, you should try being at least half-Latino Hans. It does wonders for preventing sun damage! :)