Stanek weekend question: What is your view of abortion supporters?
I admit I often demonize abortion supporters in my mind. The ones I usually deal with are the hard core industry or political types, and they can indeed come across beyond cold and calloused.
Nevertheless, having been convicted through Scripture, I’ve been trying (although admittedly failing as often as I succeed – but I’m getting better, truly!) to more even-handedly communicate with them.
This week I read Romans 15:15-16 and took the passage our direction. The pertinent sentence:
I’m doing this because God gave me the gift to be a servant of Christ Jesus to people who are not Jewish.
I applied that sentence to me and my mission:
I’m doing this because God gave me the gift to be a servant of Christ Jesus to people who are not pro-life.
St. Paul’s mission was to try to share the Good News with a people group that was completely unaware and lost. Alongside stopping abortion, that is our mission, too. We cannot really stop abortion if people’s hearts aren’t changed.
On a related note, I’m currently reading Mark Crutcher’s book On Message with my Wilberforce Leadership Fellowship mentee Rachel Bush, and this passage really struck me:
There are no unimportant discussions about abortion…. Even among abortion clinic employees, there is a creeping sense of doubt about what they are doing. Morale is low, turnover rates are astronomical, discouragement is rampant, and while they would never admit it, every rational pro-life argument they hear amplifies their doubts….
The final reason to take every discussion on abortion seriously what I call the “Note in a Bottle” phenomenon. Imagine that you are stranded on a desert island. You find a bottle, put a note in it and toss it in the ocean hoping that someone will find it and rescue you. With the realization that what is written on that note may be your only hope for survival, you are probably going to write a pretty thorough and compelling message.
That same attitude should be your guding principle anythime you are discussing abortion. Always assume that the words you are using will one day be repeated to a pregnant woman who is considering abortion. It may not happen for years, and you may never know about it, but there is a reasonable probability of this happening. When it does, the message you gave may be the only hope that baby has for survival.
How much truer this is for those of us involved in online pro-life work. Our messages are never in a bottle. They’re there for any and all to read, and who knows who is reading what at which particular point in their lives?
So I’m curious to know how you view and communicate with abortion supporters? What is your experience? What are your thoughts?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Depends on their level of “support”.
Some are evil.
Some are lost.
Some are harmless.
Some are good people.
There’s a big difference between an abortion doctor, a woman getting an abortion, a man forcing a woman into an abortion, a company that has a health care plan with abortion in it, somebody who answers ‘pro-choice’ in a phone survey but has never participated in an abortion. To throw everyone in one big group is a tough one.
Those in life that actively look at any group in society and say “you are less – you should be dead or be treated as less than others” – those folks have an evil streak to them in my mind.
Very good! Prolife apologetics.
I seek to understand where people are coming from and why. When you judge and “demonize” what you don’t like or agree with, watch out. I’ve seen people treat others, including myself in the very same spirit they accuse others of operating in. Do you understand what I’m saying?
One of my dearest friends is a former abortionist. She came to her prolife position while sorting through the remains of a baby after a D&C abortion. Even after killing thousands, her heart was not too calloused and she was hit with the stark realization that she was inventorying the body parts of a dead HUMAN in her gloved hand, and her life began to heal. If it can happen to my friend, it can happen to anyone else. No one is too far gone. This helps me remember to be loving and kind and, above all, to be fervent in prayer for those who are so deceived as to think that it is good thing, or even a “necessary evil” to kill another person – (even if it IS legal- it is still killing). Prayer will bring about the victory we seek. When the Church rises up and begins to bring the Governmental rule of Jesus to the earth through intercession, then we will see the end of abortion.
I love this question, Jill. I used to be pretty snarky with pro-choice people, because I felt like I was “above them,” with my great arguments and life-saving goals.
And then I became friends with some of them, and my heart began to soften. I found out that there are really intelligent pro-choice people, who sometimes have sophisticated reasons for believing that abortion, while immoral, should be legal. I think they’re wrong, but they’re not stupid and they don’t hate babies.
This is part of the reason I’m now encouraging pro-lifers to become friends with pro-choice people. I think we will become better at loving people as well as communicating our position persuasively, which will lead to more people becoming pro-life, and more babies being saved.
Here’s a blog post I published yesterday about one of my best friends, who is also a pro-choice atheist lesbian from Canada.
Ex-GOP, I have to say I very much enjoyed your post. I generally cringe when I hear any discussion of a group as homogenous (recently saw an article on “the poor” and the reason they are poor, as if they are poor for one reason). Bottom line: yours was well stated.
My take: abortion supporters are definitely not homogeneous; but as a general rule they do share one thing in common — they value the life of the unborn less than they value the choice of the mother. Whether by selfishness or ignorance or apathy, they do the work of the devil.
I AM TOO AFRAID BECAUSE THEY ADVOCATE KILLING THE-LIKES-OF-ME. No-no, john’ isa what I hear. Why do I still fear, then? Am I just paranoid?
All my life I’ve wanted to belong. Is that bad? Am I bad … because I certainly am faulty/reject-able? I AM THE un-cool, and I deserve killing.
Tell me: ‘Was it something I did?’ Or is it Who I fear, that makes me such a target?
There are way too many out there and they are mostly Democrat. For many it is the liberalism ideology run amok in their brains; these are the ones I can still stand to be around because I categorize them as an unwitting accomplice class. Many others are just profiteers either making money directly or indirect as an exchange for some other perceived benefit of their support. Wittingly or unwittingly they all do the Devil’s work.
“My take: abortion supporters are definitely not homogeneous; but as a general rule they do share one thing in common — they value the life of the unborn less than they value the choice of the mother.”
Eric, I have to disagree. Many would manipulate a mother into submitting to abortion cause they perceive profit in it.
“I found out that there are really intelligent pro-choice people, who sometimes have sophisticated reasons for believing that abortion, while immoral, should be legal.”
Josh, I agree that we should strive to get to know others better, even the ones who are ‘different’. And I would include those in the group you mention above as some of the the ones I would like to meet and know better. But what of the ones who do not think abortion is ‘immoral’. The ones whose only purpose in meeting and speaking with people is to maybe have a chance to take advantage of them or abuse them at a later point. Have you ever met those kinds of people?
truthseeker, it appears my words were shaped too quickly, as the pro-abortion person in that case is the abortionist or “clinic” that makes the profit, acting selfishly. “Choice” of the mother would be inaccurate in this case; it is often the choice of someone else coercing a mother into aborting. Thanks for the clarification.
And I dare say that every Democrat who believes abortion is immoral and votes for leaders who support those profiteers is a profiteer themselves. Not directly being paid by the blood money of the act itself, but profit in some other way that makes even people who think abortion is morally wrong; still willing to support the people who perpetuate the abortion industry in our nation. What is their profit?
Ask good questions. A good question, followed by a prayer, can sometimes jerk a wayward soul back into reality or at least draw someone closer to realizing the folly of abortion.
Great idea John. I think I’ll take you up on that prayer now.
“Some are good people.”
Ex-RINO. Tell me. Do you deem they are good because of their support of abortion or do you deem they good in spite of their willingness to support the killing of unborn children?
John Stuart, If tearing an unborn child from her mother’s womb is not demonic then what is?
I will listen to to the whines of unapologetic liberals when I no longer have to listen think about the cries of the unborn children they murder.
The most important thing I’ve learned in sharing with abortion supporters, is first to focus more on bearing fruit, instead of winning the argument. Next, I ask questions, and actively listen, trying to assess where they are spiritually, whether or not they’ve had an abortion, and their knowledge about the issue. And ultimately, if possible, my focus is to build relationship with them.
Will, carry on and the strength of God’s angels be with you. The unborn children in heaven smile upon your countenance.
These are children of God who we should love very much, but hate the sin that they wish to participate in. Like one person said they have they’re reasons for believing in what they do is right. There is so many issues in life today that people honestly believe that they are right and we look at them and say: Really! How can somebody honestly believe that abortion is a choice? But the realty is that the devil exist and if u are not a spirit filled individual, u are likely to participate in issues that do not conform with our judeo christian beliefs. And like the bible says we must pray for our enemies and for the people who are not lead by the Holy Spirit. As long as these people are breathing , they certain my have hope.
Truthseeker, have you read Unplanned, by Abby Johnson? It quite fairly presents the perspective of someone that’s been on both sides of the fence, so to speak. I think you might benefit from reading it.
truth -
I have a friend who is a US Veteran, works with Veterans, raises money for cancer victims, and is a generally loving and good person. He volunteers for a lot of causes, mostly veteran, but some other ones as well.
He also is pro-choice. To my knowledge, he’s never brought anybody to a clinic, he’s never had a family member have an abortion – but that’s what he believes.
I label him a “good” person.
If you think that his viewpoint automatically makes him evil, that’s your right. I don’t agree with you.
At what point do we consider someone evil?
Was Hitler evil? Stalin? Jeffrey Dahmer? Tiller?
Are those who support the killing of born humans evil?
Those in life that actively look at any group in society and say “you are less – you should be dead or be treated as less than others” – those folks have an evil streak to them in my mind.
Proaborts believe that the unborn should be dead and treated less than others.
Prax -
Yes, but I was trying to also rope in:
– Those that support the death penalty
– Racists
– Warmongers
I’m just saying, that there are other groups of people who look at others and think of them as “less”.
I don’t look at killers of the unborn as ‘less’ Ex-RINO. God’s rain falls on the just and the unjust. I just see them as needing to be stopped.
Does that help you Ex_RINO. It doesn’t matter to me if they are black or white, rich or poor. Evil transcends all those things. People who support killing unborn children are supporting evil regardless of race or economic state in society.
Ex-RINO, your friend sounds like a good person but misguided because he likely would say that he also believes killing unborn children is immoral. Those two things don’t really mesh. Just from what little you have said about him I would guess it is cause of a libertarian streak in him. You should ask him why he is pro-choice and then come back to this board and get some tips from the pro-life people on how to guide him to a pro-life position.
Thanks Navi. I will check it out.
I love those that learn the TRUTH about abortion. Those that come up to me and say, “I had no idea!!” Those that are actually willing to learn about that which they support. And then have that light bulb moment because they were truly uninformed. So was I.
I have a difficult time with those that KNOW she is a baby, KNOW fetal development, KNOW abortion ends the life of an innocent human being and STILL continue to trumpet a “woman’s right to choose.”
I need to pray more for them.
A loving spirit invites communication. I talk quietly with the older male escorts outside our local PP. Being calm and kind allows them to listen to me and I listen to what they have to say. They truly believe they are helping women. They are wrong but I know screaming at them wont’ change their minds.
Every time the abortionist Lee Tripp walks into the clinic I and several other women call out “God loves you Lee Tripp! We’re praying for you Lee!” We don’t scream condemnation. We tell him of God’s love. Lee sees those little baby hands and feet. The Holy Spirit will convict him or He won’t. I don’t think those few precious seconds I have to communicate with the abortionist should be full of shouting and anger.
Not against condemning abortion in harsh words however. Time and place for everything. But I know even St. Paul was a killer. He knew he was killing. He didn’t care. But he had a conversion. He became quite the missionary. God can and does redeem people we think are too far gone. Only God can see hearts. God is working even when we can’t see it.
I have taken the marathon approach to my communication about abortion. This means that I seek to nurture dialogue, but try and restrain from trying to “win” the conversation. This is difficult. Both because it goes against my nature of wanting to prove myself right as often as possible :) and because this issue feels much too important to let people walk away with their minds unchanged. But I am recognizing that I cannot change their hearts or minds in a single encounter and trying to do so is likely just as damaging to the ultimate goal. The saying, “people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care” can definitely apply her. I want my life and my words to speak compassion - to the born, the pre-born, the pro-life minded, and the pro-abort minded. I feel like my little part in this great big picture is part of the change we are all seeing and praying for. And I am confident that all our work and prayers will be seen fruitful in the lives of millions, if not until after some of us have passed our opportunity to see it done legally in our lifetime.
How would I deal with abortion supporters? It depends on the particular encounter. There are way too many variables to give a pat answer. And the analogy that Jill gave between “people who are not Jews” and “people who are not pro-life” is fundamentally flawed because it’s “apples to oranges”. In Paul’s time, “people who are not Jews” meant people not born Jews – an accident of birth, totally out of their control. On the other hand, people who are not pro-life are such because of their decisions. Maybe there are variances between folks as to how informed their decisions were, but they have some degree of control, and thus moral responsibility over that.
“The Son of Man has come to seek and save what was lost” Luke 19:10
Ex-RINO says: November 2, 2013 at 11:52 am
“Those in life that actively look at any group in society and say “you are less – you should be dead or be treated as less than others” – those folks have an evil streak to them in my mind.”
The dead babies r us mob view prenatal children as at best as sub-human, at worst as non-human and continuously assert they are not only less but are nothing in their perverted perspective and many of the mob desire their deaths.
Only a doctrinaire member of the dead babies r us mob would assert that Kermit Gosnell is NOT evil.
Gosnell is a serial killer and mas murderer who targeted the most defenseless among us for extermination.
The boRAT and his fellow democRATs have enabled these butchers.
The equivocators who attempt to excuse them are as guilty as they are.
Undecided…..i knew women who went into the clinic knowing what they were going to do….not their first abortion. Also former friend an RN aborted over 19 years ago says she feels no emotion about her abortion.
Also told me ” Im proud of it. Its legal.”
Are they evil? Only God knows their hearts.
I just see them as needing to be stopped.
Amen.
Rom 15:15-16 Still on some points I have written to you the more boldly and unreservedly by way of reminder. [I have done so] because of the grace (the unmerited favor) bestowed on me by God in making me a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles.
I act in the priestly service of the Gospel (the good news) of God, in order that the sacrificial offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable [to God], consecrated and made holy by the Holy Spirit. AMP
Eph 4:17 So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen (the Gentiles) do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their minds.
AMP
The apostle Paul was imprisioned in Rome, a city whose inhabitants routinely discarded unwanted newborn infants like the contents from the previous nights chamber pots.
The followers of Jeus, both Jew and Gentile, rescued these abandoned babies from the trash heap and took them into their homes and raised them as their own.
I do not believe that Paul was referring to the Gentile practice of abandoning newborn infants when he wrote of making their ‘sacrifice acceptable to GOD.’
And more importantly Paul was writing to the Gentiles who believed in and received Jesus, were born again and who had been baptized into the body of Christ by Holy Spirit.
It is unlikely that any of the unsaved Gentiles ever read or heard Pauls words being read out loud. By Pauls own writings we know he was not an evangelist and he only baptized a few people.
Paul was gift to the Gentile members of the body of Christ.
Eph 4:8,11-17 8 Therefore it is said, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive [He led a train of vanquished foes] and He bestowed gifts on men.
11 And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ’s body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ’s own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
14 So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine,
[the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.
15 Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
16 For because of Him the whole body (the church, in all its various parts), closely joined and firmly knit together by the joints and ligaments with which it is supplied, when each part [with power adapted to its need] is working properly [in all its functions], grows to full maturity, building itself up in love.
17 So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen (the Gentiles) do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their minds.
AMP
poig
Doctrines of demons are of death and lies. It is hard to fight this battle unless you know that the only thing that can defeat these lies which is truth. It is hard to preach and teach truth unless one knows it first. Paul wanted to know nothing other than Jesus Christ and him crucified. Why? Because it’s that truth that changes hearts, changed hearts…changed action, change action… laws will change, society changes and righteousness prevails. 2COR521 is the heart of gospel. That is the salt and the light which will destroy darkness, not until the gospel is preached and embraced will there be change. You can’t preach it unless you know it. I’ll follow Paul and continue to preach righteousness…what was Noah known for…preacher of what? This was before Christ…yet he preached the same thing. Righteousness. That is revealed when one preaches the gospel. Christ’s righteousness is revealed when one preaches the gospel…at least it should be.
heather says: November 3, 2013 at 7:58 am “Are they evil? Only God knows their hearts.”
Heather,
We can get a good inication of the condition of peopels hearts by their words, and by their actions and especially where they invest their money or in the case of progressives, where they spend other peoples money.
John 7:24 Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously. AMP
Jesus said:
Luke 12:55-57 And when [you see that] a south wind is blowing, you say, There will be severe heat! And it occurs. 56 You playactors (hypocrites)! You know how [intelligently] to discern and interpret and prove the looks of the earth and sky; but how is it that you do not know how to discern and interpret and apply the proof to this present time? 57 And why do you not judge what is just and personally decide what is right? AMP
Matt 7:17-18,20 17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit. 18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration]. 20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits. AMP
Luke 6:43-45 43 For there is no good (healthy) tree that bears decayed (worthless, stale) fruit, nor on the other hand does a decayed (worthless, sickly) tree bear good fruit. 44 For each tree is known and identified by its own fruit; for figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor is a cluster of grapes picked from a bramblebush. 45 The upright (honorable, intrinsically good) man out of the good treasure [stored] in his heart produces what is upright (honorable and intrinsically good), and the evil man out of the evil storehouse brings forth that which is depraved (wicked and intrinsically evil); for out of the abundance (overflow) of the heart his mouth speaks. AMP
Matt 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. AMP
Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. AMP
Praise the LORD and pass the ammunition and “Give em Potts!” [In the revolutionary war when a band of colonists were in a pitched battle with the Red Coats and they ran out of wadding for their rifles, their pastor tossed them a James Potts prayer book and told them to use the pages as wadding for their rifles.]
I have never met an effeminate carpenter, nor have I have ever met anyone who could recall meeting a dainty male with a framing hammer hanging from his nail pouch.
The boRAT probably doesnt know a claw hammer from an AR15.
Pleased to meet you Hope you guess my name But what’s puzzling you Is the nature of my game
I have never met an effeminate carpenter, nor have I have ever met anyone who could recall meeting a dainty male with a framing hammer hanging from his nail pouch. – you obviously don’t get out much.
The boRAT probably doesnt know a claw hammer from an AR15. – should he need to?
;-)
I’ve been trying (although admittedly failing as often as I succeed – but I’m getting better, truly!) to more even-handedly communicate with them.
This is the funniest thing you’ve posted in weeks, Jill. Thanks for the chuckle.
It is very hard to find the abortion supporters who are open minded on this issue. Many had abortions & are defensive. I’ve found abortion is the leading cause of atheism. When atheists rant & blasphemy at religion it is usually because they had an abortion. It really is hard to talk to them because you can’t just ignore their view that it is a good thing to legalize the over 1 billion killings world wide. It is also hard to respect people who jump to conclusions esp on the wrong side of “history”, like being pro-abortion rather than undecided. I find that most pro-aborts are also atheist & being atheist is declaring yourself on a position which is proven wrong also. How does one respect that? On my popular pro-life Youtube channel I see a lot of them in the comment sections because one of my videos has almost 6 million views & is the 2nd most watched pro-life video on Youtube, called “Police Harassment backfires On Cop at Quincy HS” In that video, I have to block & delete most of the comments because they are so vile & it is always angry atheists who had abortions & on drugs or alcohol or both. I know because they subscribe to like channels.
I don’t know what carpenters have to do with anything, much less effeminate carpenters, but I’m a feminine carpenter, and I know quite a few homosexual carpenters. So. There’s that. Creepy talk, good times.
As for abortion supporters, I think they’re wrong. That is really the one general view I have. Beyond that, it’s pretty individual.
“I don’t know what carpenters have to do with anything, much less effeminate carpenters, but I’m a feminine carpenter, and I know quite a few homosexual carpenters. So. There’s that. Creepy talk, good times.”
Lies, obviously. Carpenters are REAL men, and cannot be feminine or gay, even if they are female (so, you’re obviously lying about being a carpenter, or you’re a really masculine lesbian. Take your pick!). And Ken’s never deigned to explain what “effeminate” is, or why it’s bad, so I think we can safely ignore him.
Anyway for the weekend question, I think abortion supporters are horribly misguided, but most of them aren’t bad people.
How do you explain atheist anti-choicers DefendersOfWomen?
“effeminate” is any man who is less manly than the manly kentheburper.
Hey, didn’t there used to be a ‘Ken’ doll?
Hammer time!
“On my popular pro-life Youtube channel I see a lot of them in the comment sections because one of my videos has almost 6 million views & is the 2nd most watched pro-life video on Youtube, called “Police Harassment backfires On Cop at Quincy HS” In that video, I have to block & delete most of the comments because they are so vile & it is always angry atheists who had abortions & on drugs or alcohol or both. I know because they subscribe to like channels.”
Okay, I’m sorry I can’t stop laughing. The mean commenters on your YouTube channel are not due to “angry atheists who had abortions & on drugs or alcohol”, they are 14-year-olds who parents let them on the internet unsupervised. YouTube is famous for the teenager trolling, they just like shock statements and comment on videos about abortion, homosexuality, etc because it gets a rise out of people. It gets pretty bad when they come from a site like 4Chan and gang up on a video.
And *most* pro-abortion supporters aren’t atheists, there simply aren’t nearly enough atheists in the US to make that statement true.
One of the continuing battles I have, is seeing the abortion as a PL vs PC (GOOD VS EVIL) contest of sorts. We want to win, not seek out what is just.
Beam-up folks … much of our perspective for PC-thinking stems from an adult view (called educated) on folks not quite like us – the unborn … this is also the PL-game. Abortion is death to all of us and stems from nutrient deficiencies that play havoc with thought processes. One example: excess copper (low zinc) gives an illusion that copper-toxicity is beneficial … try explaining to any vegan, that their life will be shortened/LESSENED by this lifestyle choice. The same with abortion-support … it continues because we do zip to fill-in our own deficits of zinc. [What century will you in PL-la-la land change to meet your kids needs for zinc? If you continue to do nothing …. your esteemed PL stance will turn your offspring to PC.]
I am not at all happy that there are those that support this injustice and sometimes I show it.
Last week’s comment of mine about “reality” regarding this injustice was less than ideal. I must have had a bad day…
And *most* pro-abortion supporters aren’t atheists, there simply aren’t nearly enough atheists in the US to make that statement true.
Perhaps Jack, but none of them are practicing Christians either…
“Perhaps Jack, but none of them are practicing Christians either… ”
Eh, No True Scotsman fallacy. They claim a certain religion (be it Christianity or whatever), they do things in the name of that religion and use that religion to justify it. All I’m saying is “atheists” can’t be blamed for the entirety of pro-choice ideology, much as people would like it to be that way.
Just like I said, non-practicing Christians may as well have it all wrong. You will not find a practicing Christian who supports abortion for any reason.
Nah, they “practice”, I’ve met plenty of them. Like I said, No True Scotsman.
I cannot accept that but if that is the case, they live in sin…
Given the gamut of ‘non-christian’ behaviors exhibited one way or another by most of the population there is obviously an absolute dearth of ‘practicing christians’, according to your logic “thomas r.”.
In some case this also is an option :
“This week I read Matthew 12:34
and took the passage our direction. The pertinent sentence:
I applied that sentence to me and my mission … “
No “reality” no touchdown for you here. I qualified my statemernt with another posted on November 4, 2013 at 3:06 pm. Your selective reading is pulling you down…
“The boRAT probably doesnt know a claw hammer from an AR15.”
Real-stupid-ity asks, ‘should he need to?’
Answer:
Not as long as the boRAT has Moochelle to hang the portrait of his latest bromance.
[But the obamateur is real good at directing unmanned drones to kill non-combatants half a world away. If the boRAT was piloting one of the drones, it would still be ‘un-manned’.]
Jack says: November 4, 2013 at 12:01 am
“And Ken’s never deigned to explain what “effeminate” is, or why it’s bad,”…
Jack,
Scripture indicates Jesus was accused of being a bastard, a drunk, a thief, a liar, a maniac, a whore monger, a demoniac who hung out with tax collectors and unrefined, uneducated knuckle dragging neanderthols [kosher neanderthals]
Joseph, who was married to Mary, [both probably at least olive skinned Hebrews] was a carpenter and Mary’s son, Jesus, was also a carpenter. I have never been able to reconcile all the likenesses of Jesus as a fair skinned blond or red haired, blue or green eyed effeminate pansy.
1 Cor 6:9-10 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [Strongs #3120], nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. NASB
NT:3120- effeminate- of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness,
NT:3120 malakos (mal-ak-os’); of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite: KJV – effeminate, soft.
(from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
catamite-a boy kept by a pederast [Catamitus: Greek mythological character. Ganymede was an attractive Trojan boy who was abducted to Olympus to become the cupbearer of Zeus and later his homosexual lover.]
pederast- one who practices anal intercourse especially with a boy
There you go Jack. Do you understand now why it is ‘bad’ or do I need to draw you a picture?
Is that sufficient to communicate the bibilical understanding of ‘effeminate’ or do I need to provide a link to some archeological/anthropological drawings?
I just can’t fathom an effeminate pederast clothed in nothing but a nail apron with a petite 6 oz finishing hammer dangling from his leather carpenters pouch.
[I never said females can’t be carpenters without being a female homosexuals, that would be Jack’s fetish and/or fantasy. There is nothing unusual about females being feminine.]
Well Jesus couldn’t have possibly been blond, by most historical data he probably looked quite Arab or northern African. But blond or red headed men aren’t “pansies” so I don’t get THAT point.
All I got from your comment is you think Obama sleeps with young boys, or something, so whatever. I’m sure “pederasts” come in all walks of life, you can’t tell who’s some kind of pervert because they have the “gay lisp” or swish when they walk, or whatever is going through your little mind.
And like I said, plenty of gay or bisexual dudes (who aren’t remotely all pederasts) do carpentry or other manly masculine man stuff, so your point is completely weird, irrelevant, and just dumb.
Oh and drawing comparisons between being “soft” with stuff like pederasty is just… stupid. I feel bad for boys kept as prostitutes or being subjected to sexual abuse because you seem to think it reflects on THEM rather than the adult.
Jack,
I have never blamed children for being the victims of pederasts.
You may be projecting.
You challenged me to give you definition of ‘effeminate’.
I gave you the biblical definition. That is the standard in which I place the most confidence.
What ‘standard’ do you rely upon other than your own subjective preferences and relative morality?
You do understand that there are people in the community in which you live who have their own subjective standards of right and wrong and they believe it is not only right, but it is a positve good to engage in sex with children. They believe it is good for them and they believe it is good for the children.
What standard do you use to tell them they are wrong?
I hope you are not relying of the prevaling opinions of an ever changing pop culture.
Welcome to the boRAT’s jungle of moral relativism.
“I have never blamed children for being the victims of pederasts.
You may be projecting.”
I may be projecting on that point, I do tend to that. But when part of your definitions are:
“NT:3120 malakos (mal-ak-os’); of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite: KJV – effeminate, soft. (from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.) catamite-a boy kept by a pederast [Catamitus: Greek mythological character. Ganymede was an attractive Trojan boy who was abducted to Olympus to become the cupbearer of Zeus and later his homosexual lover.] “
I don’t see where I’m reading you wrong. If these are the Biblical definitions of effeminate behavior I find them backwards and disgusting.
“You do understand that there are people in the community in which you live who have their own subjective standards of right and wrong and they believe it is not only right, but it is a positve good to engage in sex with children. They believe it is good for them and they believe it is good for the children.
What standard do you use to tell them they are wrong?”
Well, I OBVIOUSLY understand that people like that exist, considering how I was “raised”. I use the standard that 99% of people use when they are deciding what type of things they should vehemently oppose legally and morally, rather than just personally oppose morally, and that’s level of overall harm. Christians do that too, just as much as anyone, you all might have different lines you draw where the amount of harm is enough for you to think legality should be involved, but you use basically the same criteria.
And seriously, what in heaven’s name does Obama have to do with your definition of effeminacy? He certainly didn’t invent pederasty and I haven’t heard any accusations that he’s involved in it.
This is probably the worst thread derail yet on this blog, and that’s saying something. I’m sorry I’ve gotten involved in it.
So what you are saying “thomas r.” is that christians who are pro-choice aren’t ‘practicing christians’ but those who have premarital-sex, extra-marital sex, same-sex sex, commit murder or steal are ‘practicing christians’, they just ‘live with sin’.
Not as long as the boRAT has Moochelle to hang the portrait of his latest bromance. – ‘bromance’? Would you care to illuminate exactly what these ‘bromances’ of obama’s have been and are? Or can you merely speculate? Do you think bromances constitute homosexuality?
I’m confident he can tell the difference between a hammer and a firearm. Whether he can discern one type of hammer from another or one type of firearm from another simply doesn’t matter.
[But the obamateur is real good at directing unmanned drones to kill non-combatants half a world away. If the boRAT was piloting one of the drones, it would still be ‘un-manned’.] – if he’s not a man what is he? Do tell.
Given the language you display regarding women, people being effeminite or ‘soft’, and terms like ‘pansy’, one starts to wonder what internal doubts or conflicts you might be dealing with.
I agree with you that it is unlikely that any ‘jesus’ would have been blond or blue eyed. And how did he find guys named “Peter, John, James, Matthew, Andrew, Phillip, Thomas & Simon” in that part of the world at that time?
Are you being sarcastic about the apostles names Reality? The apostle’s names (or you know, the names given to people called apostles in the New Testament stories) were mostly of Hebrew origin that have been heavily anglicized from their Greek forms. It’s not like people called each other James in Biblical times, but earlier forms of the name existed.
Sarcasm was not my intent Jack. I was basically agreeing with kentheburper that the visual as well as literal translations leave a lot to be desired.
so your point is completely weird, irrelevant, and just dumb.
Leaving aside everything else wrong with ken’s posts, since you have ably covered that, ken does not understand the definition that he is citing. “Effeminate” does not describe the pederast, but rather, the partner who “plays the female role” (‘feminate’ from the Latin femina, a woman), in the physical act of coitus. So you are correct, ken is saying that being the victim of sexual abuse reflects upon the victim. He just doesn’t know that he’s saying that.
Thanks LisaC, I was really really trying not to take it personally because I tend to misinterpret things when I do, but I was pretty certain that historically “effeminate” and “catamite” were used to describe the young males (victims imo, regardless of what their culture was at the time), not the generally older male dominate partners. So even if Ken isn’t deliberately blaming anyone, the definitions he is citing are definitely aimed at the kid in the pederast relationships, and applying that to modern day has some pretty awful implications.