Why are some Catholic hospitals dispensing contraceptives?
by Carder
Now, bear in mind, the archbishop’s staff had been informed of this nearly two years ago and has stonewalled, foot-dragged, administratively delayed, passed the buck, looked into it and just about every other imaginable bureaucratic excuse you can dream up.
And yet, at the end of the day, these drugs are still being passed out like candy at these Catholic hospitals.
So why are the bishops kicking up such a fuss and spending zillions of dollars in federal court to protest something that they freely allow to happen, with their knowledge and consent right in their own dioceses?
Why are these institutions allowed to keep the name Catholic? Why are politicians allowed to keep advertising them selves as Catholic as they champion the culture of death? Why are homosexual men allowed to run rampant in the ranks of the clergy? Why are Catholic youth not being taught the evil of contraception?
The questions are almost endless and each one of these questions is part of a larger issue – the credibility crisis that a huge number of bishops have on matters sexual.
~ Michael Voris tearing into Catholic bishops who fail to act on the revelation that Catholic hospitals are dispensing contraception in their pharmacies (among other issues), Church Militant.TV, February 4
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I thought homosexuals could be clergy or whatever because it’s about behavior, not orientation. If they’re celibate I don’t see how it would matter. I can’t stand this guy and I’m tired of him whining.
Deluded Lib, I came here to ask the same question. I’m not Catholic and never have been, but from my conversations with Catholic friends, I was under the impression that gay priests were allowed.
They are however the bigger question is this: how can the Catholic Church ensure they are and will be celibate. Sexuality does not stay only in the brain and is bound to surface in behavior sooner or later. Past actions are an excellent indicator of future actions – human nature that’s all. The Catholic Church is playing with fire.
“Why are homosexual men allowed to run rampant in the ranks of the clergy?”
Can you say “run rampant”??? What do you think that means?
If a person has homosexual orientation, but keeps himself and his life undetectable by the gaydar, who is going to bother with it?
Celibate means unmarried. Abstinent, in this context means not getting any sex. Sex outside of marriage is considered a sin. Put that all together :
Catholic priests are really supposed to be ABSTINENT. If a priest can manage that, then his sexual orientation wouldn’t be an issue.
This is what we are going to take away from that rant? Gay priests?
Oy ve!…. For many centuries, men with same-sex attraction were not admitted into seminaries and monasteries. Several reasons why, and you may not agree with them all, but basically it works like this: Celibacy in the Roman rite is a renunciation of something good (wife and family) for something better (service to the Kingdom of God). Putting a gay man into an all-male environment is just a whole lot of temptation.
In the 1960’s, Catholics experimented with relaxing that requirement. I suppose that was in the hope that gay men could be just as chaste and holy as straight men. And some of them could, but overall our experience was awful.
The seminaries acquired a gay sub-culture, pretty much every one. And it had to be tolerated…. if a straight young man complained, it was he who was drummed out for not be accepting and inclusive enough.
Eventually, this behavior got into our parishes. In a world where most child sexual abuse is perpetrated against young girls, the victims of the Catholic priest-crisis were overwhelmingly adolescent boys.
As part of the clean-up reform, teams of Catholic bishops visited all of the seminaries and interviewed all of the faculty and students. Faculties were purged of those who tolerated the licentious behavior.
Gay men are no longer admitted into Catholic seminaries. It just isn’t safe to do so, and we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
Those older priests with same-sex attraction who are living chaste and holy lives are still in ministry. These are the gentlemen about whom Pope Francis famously said, “Who am I to judge?”
The problem is when bishops ignore rumors of a priest with an active homosexual lifestyle. Or when our hospital keeps a staff doctor who also does abortions at Planned Parenthood. Voris is saying that every time our pastors and leaders “look the other way” when a high-profile Catholic flaunts his disobedience, it hurts our ability to make and change for good in the world.
Catholics need to behave like Catholics, starting with our bishops. That is what Voris is saying.
Let me rephrase my question then w/in the framework you are working with Pharmer:
How can the Catholic Church ensure they are and will be celibate and abstinent? How would the Catholic Church check on whether the priest “can manage that?”
Thank you Del, precisely what I attempted to convey but much better :)
So, it looks like we’re going to have another arguing about homosexuality thread. (Gets out popcorn)
JDC: kolacki go much better with a heated polemic :)
In regards to Catholic hospital pharmacies dispensing contraceptives, it depends on the intent of the medication being prescribed. If a woman is on a hormonal pill for treatment of a disease or dysfunction, that is a licit use. The effect of pregnancy prevention is secondary in that case. If you just see that she is on the Pill, it would be easy to make the mistake that Catholic pharmacies are dispensing contraceptives. Condoms are also used to cover probes. My point is that there is more than one use for a contraceptive and it depends on how and why it is being used. Obviously some devices are strictly contraceptive and have no place in an authentic Catholic health care.
“Condoms are also used to cover probes.”
Is someone under the impression that probes contain spermatozoa? :)
I’ll be careful during any of my next medical procedures to keep my eyes peeled for any probes.
I try so, so hard to accept and understand Christianity. I really do. But it’s obvious Christianity hates me, as do most Christians. Just look at this stuff.
“They are however the bigger question is this: how can the Catholic Church ensure they are and will be celibate. Sexuality does not stay only in the brain and is bound to surface in behavior sooner or later. Past actions are an excellent indicator of future actions – human nature that’s all. The Catholic Church is playing with fire. ”
People who aren’t straight can’t be trusted, got it. Even if they convert and leave the lifestyle. It won’t “stay in the brain” so we got to exclude everyone with same sex attractions from things that are decent and good.
“Eventually, this behavior got into our parishes. In a world where most child sexual abuse is perpetrated against young girls, the victims of the Catholic priest-crisis were overwhelmingly adolescent boys.”
Men being attracted to other adult men has nothing to do with child rape.
I’m sick of seeing that. Being attracted to men doesn’t make you attracted to children. And you’re factually wrong which is damaging to male victims of sexual assault. Most sexual abuse is NOT committed against girls, male victims are much more prevalent than is reported and acknowledged. Most studies put the male victims at 1/3 of all victims and this is an underestimation. More recent estimates put the numbers at 50/50 and the amount of males sexually abused before the age of 18 at 1 in 6.
You’re also ignoring the fact that in the sixties and seventies that priests were more likely to have access to boys alone than girls, so pedophiles without a gender preference were going to abuse the victims they could easily get hold of. And you guys infuriate me because none of you care about these boys, you’re just trying to disavow responsibility, I haven’t heard anyone express sadness for the victims in these conversations. It’s just how about it wasn’t the church, it was those filthy gays or those liberals. Disgusting.
And again, none of this has anything to do with gay people, because being attracted to adults is a completely different thing.
Anyway, I get it. Men who aren’t straight are disgusting humans who should be excluded from everything because they’re untrustworthy, not like those good upstanding straight guys.
No wonder only LGBT people who hate themselves have anything to do with Christianity. And no wonder everyone hates us.
I didn’t comment on contraceptives because I could care less if “Catholic” hospitals dispense contraception and I don’t even know if it’s true because it’s Voris who said it. I was just wondering because Christians keep lying to me and telling me that Christians love LGBT people just as much as anyone else and you won’t be excluded from anything because of what you are. I was believing that but yet again, like most nice things I learn, it’s just a big lie.
Thanks Del … for the memories,
Being straight in an institution that is dedicated to celibate [and very, very ABSTINATE] lifestyle is ….hmmm … ‘difficult’, and NOT because of attraction, but because it detracts/derails personal intimacy …. still does! How can anyone find intimacy with any other same-sex friend without being mislabeled and shunned as homosexual?
To give you some idea :::: Do you trust your hubby to bath your young daughter? The answer most often is: ‘Well, of course!’ …. because in that part of intimacy you TRUST HIM. It hurts when the ‘of-course’ now means distrust first and always … I can be dismissed and shunned. This was so bad that in Ireland, Catholic priests felt like-hanging-their-heads-in-public. And faithful priest friends ( @80 yrs) old were trashed as if they were garbage.
I try so, so hard to accept and understand Christianity. I really do. But it’s obvious Christianity hates me, as do most Christians. Just look at this stuff.
Jack, I don’t hate you, and I doubt that anyone else does here. I’m disappointed that I haven’t heard from you though :-(
“How can anyone find intimacy with any other same-sex friend without being mislabeled and shunned as homosexual? ”
Or worse, how can you have any type of friendship or intimacy with a same sex friend if they know you have same sex attraction?
“To give you some idea :::: Do you trust your hubby to bath your young daughter? The answer most often is: ‘Well, of course!’ …. because in that part of intimacy you TRUST HIM. It hurts when the ‘of-course’ now means distrust first and always … I can be dismissed and shunned. ”
Yes, this is true. Of course mothers let their husbands bathe their little girls and boys. Because you don’t assume that straight guys see little girls the same way they see adult women, and you trust your husband won’t molest your daughter just because she has a vagina.
But those disgusting men with same sex attractions, we can’t trust them. We have to assume they want to have sex with children and can’t control themselves. Can’t work with kids if you have known same sex attractions because parents will be worried you’re a pedo. Can’t be a priest, have to be shunned everywhere because who knows if we can’t trust you. It’s awful.
Sorry Phillymiss I thought I wrote you back again. I’ll rectify it now. And I realize I’m being overly broad and accusing all Christians of things that not all of them do, which isn’t fair. So I’m sorry about that. I’m just tired of the meme that men with same sex attractions are inherently untrustworthy around children and Christians and all that is good in the world.
Why, oh why, are most people here not addressing the topic of the post – that is, the sin of contraceptives (many of the abortifacients) being distributed by Catholic hospitals?
“I try so, so hard to accept and understand Christianity. I really do. But it’s obvious Christianity hates me, as do most Christians. Just look at this stuff.”
I think Jack that you fundamentally misunderstand the direction this thread went. We are discussing priesthood and its implications and not a regular Joe with same sex attraction. So where you got that Christianity hates you as do most Christians conclusion is beyond me. This discussion has nothing to do with the general public but PRIESTS!!!
You know, maybe we should not address sexual misdeeds committed by priests and their root causes because we may run the risk of offending the homosexual segment of our population?
“We are discussing priesthood and its implications and not a regular Joe with same sex attraction. So where you got that Christianity hates you as do most Christians conclusion is beyond me. This discussion has nothing to do with the general public but PRIESTS!!!”
Yeah we’re discussing priests, and blaming child sexual abuse on gay men instead of people who like to abuse children. That’s great. It’s obvious to me that people are lying to me for some reason when they say that they see people with same sex attractions the same as any other sinner, and that it’s about the behavior being sinful, not the orientation. I don’t understand why people are lying to me and then go around and admit that no, they don’t want people with same sex attractions (however much they work on being a moral person) in positions of leadership or working with kids and all that because they are untrustworthy. If that’s really how people with same sex attractions are viewed, then just admit it. Stop giving people hope and then taking it away.
“You know, maybe we should not address sexual misdeeds committed by priests and their root causes because we may run the risk of offending the homosexual segment of our population?”
No, sexual misdeeds should be addressed especially abuse against children. But blaming that on “gay priests” is ridiculous. Men who are attracted to other men don’t like little boys any more than men attracted to women like little girls. You can’t see why people would take offense and object to that kind of slander? You can’t see why people with same sex attractions would stay the heck out of church if that’s what people think of you if they find out that’s something you struggle with. And I don’t argue that (consenting) homosexual behavior is right, or moral, I just refuse to equate gay with rapists, because it’s not accurate and it’s horribly damaging. The Catholic Church revised their policies on how to protect children pretty drastically, resulting in much less abused children, and it didn’t even have anything to do with kicking gays out.
“Eventually, this behavior got into our parishes. In a world where most child sexual abuse is perpetrated against young girls, the victims of the Catholic priest-crisis were overwhelmingly adolescent boys.”
You are arguing that it does not have to be that way in response to Del’s statement above, however fail to note that his statement is 100 percent true in regard to the Catholic Church crisis. Are you for instance, disputing that the majority of victims of priest sexual abuse are boys? Yes or no?
People who abuse children are rapists and molesters, whichever gender they abuse, and shouldn’t be equated to those with same sex attraction. And I’m not denying that most victims were boys, but Del’s completely ignoring that boys were what most priests had easy access to, making them easier victims for the pedophiles to get hold of. It’s about as stupid as accusing straight men of liking little girls to accuse same sex attracted men of liking little boys. And he’s underestimating the amount of boys are abused in the general population. I’ve read one study that found that men are about six times less likely to report sexual abuse than women are, along with other factors it’s apparent there are more male victims than people acknowledge or care about. ALSO, the Catholic Church scandal was unique in that many victims came forward together, a safety in numbers thing, which probably encouraged reporting when people otherwise wouldn’t.
I would like to disavow part of my 12:51pm comment, though. Obviously most Christians and Catholics care about the abused kids in the church and otherwise, and it’s not fair for me to say you don’t just because I’m mad. But the way you’re going about it is completely wrong. And the Catholic Church did take steps (that weren’t focused on ostracizing gay people) to protect children which is good. So that was an unfair and incorrect comment of me. But really, I wish you could ever see how awful you’re treating LGBT people with this stuff, especially LGBT people who were abused as children. Equating people to their attackers is generally a cruel thing to do.
“….but Del’s completely ignoring that boys were what most priests had easy access to, making them easier victims for the pedophiles to get hold of.”
I disagree, from Del’s long comment it is obvious to me that he understands that.
Anyway – the trend leads an outside observer to conclude that a priest with same-sex attraction is more likely to abuse boys than engage in homosexual activity with another priest. Yes or no?
NO THOMAS. The trends lead an outsider, who doesn’t assume that gay people are automatically attracted to children of the same gender, to believe that the Catholic church had a problem with letting people who wanted to have sex with kids in the priesthood. Now, I don’t really blame the church (except for the cover up part, but that’s separate) because pedos usually aren’t loud and proud with their inclinations, but you’re conflating that with men attracted to other men. Men, Thomas, not little boys. It’s a completely different thing.
You’re attracted to women, if you were celibate would you start being attracted to little girls? Of course you wouldn’t. Will you look at what you’re saying and implying for one second?
I’ve met some celibate 65-year old men attracted to 18-year old ladies :(
That’s the reason, I think, my wife always tells me that if I outlive her, she wants me to find someone close to my age.
Seriously now: do you think that a 27 year-old priest with same-sex attraction can be sexually attracted to a 16 year-old boy?
Obviously most homosexuals are not attracted to adolescent boys. And heterosexual priests also sin. However the John Jay report showed that 70 to 80 percent of the victims of the priests were adolescent males. Draw your own conclusions from that percentage. Christians should love the homosexuals so much that they have the courage to urge them to discontinue homosexual acts. There was a recent report that said 70 % of new HIV cases are with 2% of the population. Of course Christians are also sinners who need to repent (while also asking other sinners to repent).
65 year olds attracted to 18 year old are super creepy, but not pedophiles. It’s wrong to get involved with someone that young but at least it’s “normal” to be attracted to people after puberty. People attracted to children between the ages of 11 and 14 (like the vast majority of the sexual abuse victims of the Catholic priests) are NOT normal men who have same sex attractions. 11 years old! Most boys haven’t even hit or gone through puberty fully at that age! Stop equating sick pervs like that with a normal gay or bi dude attracted to other adults. Seriously.
“However the John Jay report showed that 70 to 80 percent of the victims of the priests were adolescent males.”
They were not adolescent boys! Why do you guys keep overstating their ages? The vast majority of victims were between the ages of 11 to 14. Those are children, not adolescents, not post-pubescent. Children. These are child rapists you’re talking about, not “homosexuals”.
I am not equating at all Jack. I am just asking questions that need to be asked (I think). God knows Catholics need to figure this thing out before another scandal hits.
Actual Thomas the Church has done great with trying to prevent more abuses. They’ve started requiring criminal background checks, adopted a zero tolerance policy instead of moving priests from parish to parish, they’ve trained people in watching for signs of sexual abuse and put policies in place to make sure children aren’t being left alone with people so there are more eyes on them. THAT kind of stuff is helping, and considering that there are much less abuse reports in recent years it seems to have done a good job. Focusing on the evil untrustworthy gays isn’t doing anything but causing harm to LGBT people who are in the church or want to be, because it’s a problem with rape, not with orientation.
I know the Church has been very proactive in addressing this issue. I meant the root causes.
Root causes are that some people like to rape kids, and they try to find places they have access to children. The priesthood, the Boy Scouts, Boys and Girls clubs, youth group leaders, coaches, marrying women who have children, marrying women to have children for the purpose of raping them, etc. Pedophiles exist. Ostracizing and condemning people with same sex attractions not only doesn’t help, it distracts from the issue of what’s going on, which is that some people like to rape children.
John I now fully understand where you are coming from. You have my respect Sir.
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says:
February 7, 2014 at 2:14 pm
“We are discussing priesthood and its implications and not a regular Joe with same sex attraction. So where you got that Christianity hates you as do most Christians conclusion is beyond me. This discussion has nothing to do with the general public but PRIESTS!!!” Yeah we’re discussing priests, and blaming child sexual abuse on gay men instead of people who like to abuse children.
I don’t want to say much about, because we are way off topic already…
I was at ground zero when the priest-abuse crisis broke. I was not a victim, but I knew one of the primary perps and several of the victims. I was a student at a high school seminary in the 1970’s, and the rector was a gay predator of teen-age boys. One of my contemporaries was a victim and told his story on Oprah. Another contemporary was victimized by another priest, and his brother went on to found SNAP.
I personally knew many victims and many perpetrators. I am still in email contact with several principle persons.
And I am telling you that the problem was toleration of gay activity in the seminaries. These guys were ordained and put into parishes. The were, for the most part, charismatic and attractive personalities…. and they fell into the ancient temptation of pederasty. Adolescent boys are attractive and vulnerable.
There were a few perpetrators who were genuine pedophiles, attracted to very young girls or boys. But the overwhelming majority 0f priest-abusers victimized boys in their early and mid teens.
I agree with your post one hundred percent Del. This leads me to ask again a question that was not answered when originally presented in a discussion with DLPL :
Seriously now: do you think that a 27 year-old priest with same-sex attraction can be sexually attracted to a 16 year-old boy?
The answer is an unequivocal YES. Was this attraction acted on? Another unequivocal YES.
Oh Jack. So many Christians *do* care about the LGBT community.
:(
And I agree with the statement that “contraception” in hospitals can be used for a variety of reasons. And the reason condoms are used on probes to protect against the transference, of you know, germs and bodily fluids that carry disease. That’s why condoms are used. And sometimes hormonal bc is used to regulate abnormalities. So maybe that is why they distribute.
At any rate. It really does depend on what is meant by contraception.
I’ve rewritten my comment like four time and I just can’t do this. I’m gonna cry or something. This is what I’m talking about. You guys ignore actual facts because you want to blame people with same sex attractions. This is the reason LGBT people avoid the church and don’t feel safe around Christians.
Listen, the majority of victims were between 11 and 14. Now, unless you straight men are going to tell me that you find little girls that age the equivalent of adult women, you have to understand that those of us with same sex attractions DON’T find children that age at all attractive. At all. Those are children. Not adults, not even adolescents really. You two keep ignoring this because you want to blame it on same sex attracted people.
And why don’t you two understand the difference between abuse and consensual sex? These were not statutory crimes with a “consenting” younger party. These were crimes where people were forced and abused. When you see young women (children) forcibly abused you don’t blame it on straight men, I know you don’t, you rightly blame it on RAPISTS. Which is what the pedos in the church were. Rapists.
And no Thomas I am attracted to other men but I’m not attracted to 16 year olds. They are children to me, like they are to most normal adults, its a maturity difference no matter if they’re physically mature. If you’re attracted to 16 year olds I hope you keep away from them.
And how, Del, how did the abuses lessen so much when many parishes still allow gay priests? Could it be that the child abuse measures worked because they were focused on ABUSERS, not gays? No, it must be something else.
And neither of you seem to understand that people fixated on adolescent boys or young pubescent boys aren’t gay men like normal dudes who have same sex attractions. They are predators attracted to a certain age group. It doesn’t have to be prepubescent to be a fixation.
“Oh Jack. So many Christians *do* care about the LGBT community. ”
I don’t think that all or even most Christians dislike gays. I think most distrust the LGBT people though. Nobody seems to argue against this stuff except me. Everyone seems willing to ignore their fellows equating gays to rapists over and over again, and then people stick up their nose and say LGBT people don’t want to go to church because they hate Christians. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand why most LGBT people won’t trust Christians. I’m tired of it, and I’m tired of people saying “we love you” while they say and do the most unloving things. I don’t think I’m obligated to just take it. I grew up with that kind of “love” and I’m not going to accept it as an adult. And I’m not going to shut up because people want to say their incorrect and hurtful things in peace.
I appear to be disintegrating and not making rational comments. I’m done with the thread, I guess y’all can say what you want and think what you want and have no one to argue against it.
Actually I was working on forumalting a comment in support of your statements… lol
Yeah I know I’m not being fair to Christians and I’m generalizing terribly. I’m sorry. I’m not going to comment again.
I see you still don’t understand that this is only about priests. To be exact, those priests that took their sexual attraction a step further. Not toward other priests but children and adolescents.
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says:
February 7, 2014 at 4:00 pm
And how, Del, how did the abuses lessen so much when many parishes still allow gay priests? Could it be that the child abuse measures worked because they were focused on ABUSERS, not gays? No, it must be something else.
I am so sorry. I wish that I could tell you that the priest abusers were mostly criminally minded pedophiles with a sick fetish toward boys-of-a-certain-age.
I can’t. I have to say that in my experience (and I know waaay too much about this) and in the experience of people who have dealt with this crisis throughout the Church — it was a problem of gay culture in the seminaries.
Young men entered seminary, hoping to be good and holy priests. But they fell into the habit of secret indulgence with other gay guys. And instead of being kicked out, they were allowed to stay — in the hope that they would grow out of that behavior, I suppose.
Eventually, these were ordained and put into parishes. And then a portion of them started to prey upon the cute young boys. We all know the rest of the story.
The very worst part was that the predators were not immediately removed from ministry — for the same reason that they were not removed from seminary. We thought that they would stop their sexual behaviors if we gave them one more chance.
Hi Jack,
Unlike what you think, Thomas hopes, and Janet Baker bemoans … this thread is at the true core of PL-living. They all (as are ALL humans), gravitated on an INTIMATE life. We (in the Catholic Church) have not solved anything substantial, so we will repeat and repeat this stupidity. This is most problematic in the American-Catholic church.
At its very core, Jack, the evident and abundant love inside your life’s wisdom is about the intimacy you have with your kids. Your PL-stance flows directly from the highly protective role of ‘Daddy’ to your brood.
I’ll bet that at the center of all abortion is a fear-of-intimacy.
The American-Catholic seems almost lost in the formality of ritual, by emphasizing the divine-name ‘Father” and almost totally eliminating “Abba”(Daddy), which Jesus used. I could go on and on. Try this ::: the next time you bless yourself say – “In Your name, Abba, and Yours, Jesus and Yours, Holy Spirit. Amen.” The saints are my living soul mates not a silly-looking, dust-collecting, arms-length statue. Mary is Mom (first) and never BVM …
It’s a huge issue and have a lovely habit where I … feel? I guess? others’ pain. Like extreme empathy. I just absorb it and there’s been a lot of hurt in the world lately and it’s hard for me to formulate rational thought when there’s all this …. hurt going on. (hence the other thread where everyone was telling me to calm down).
I think that if people who have same-sex attractions can control them (like people who have same sex attractions) they can be clergy. I think what people here mean is that there would seem to be quite a bit of temptation so I can see arguing against it for mercy for the man who has same sex attraction. HOWEVER. Maybe it ought to be a case by case basis. Because certainly there are those who are more in control of their sexual appetites than others. Like the male youth pastor who has sex with a girl in his youth group. That makes me sick, even if it is consensual. It’s an abuse of power and it’s wrong. But sexual abuse ever ever ever is not okay. gay. straight. It’s sick and perverted and wrong. Abusers – especially in the church – ought to be shamed for what they are – abusers. It’s just as bad if it’s a boy or a girl who’s being abused. My heart aches for the victims, truly it does. Some straight men could never be priests because they don’t or can’t control their sexual urges or because that is just something that they are not called to do. It is the same for the man who is attracted to other men. Some of them are able to reign in sexual thoughts. Others aren’t. It ought to be up to the man and diocese or whoever ordains him.
So I dont know. I’m also not Catholic. So I feel pretty bad sitting on the outside of the Catholic church telling them how things ought to be run in their church. I respect my Catholic brothers and sisters, but there are quite a few ways in which we differ in view point.
What Voris is saying is that there are still quite a few gay men in the priesthood. Father has a secret boyfriend that everyone knows about, and the bishop ignores the complaints of the people.
-Or Pro-life Catholics are not allowed to hand out pamphlets that teach about the sin and dangers of contraception, because Father doesn’t want to hear complaints from all of the contracepting members.
-Or the Catholic hospital is doing procedures and dispensing drugs that are against our faith in the dignity of human life.
-Or the diocesan insurance plan pays for contraception, and always has.
It’s bad enough that Catholics contracept and divorce and vote for pro-abortion candidates at the same rate as the rest of the world. But when our official leadership participates in this hypocrisy, it’s no wonder that we can’t end abortion or do charity for the world. We completely lost our moral voice when we forgot our Catholic identity.
Catholics should have learned from the priest-sex crisis and our tolerance of gays in the seminaries. We can’t change the world by being just like the world.
They are however the bigger question is this: how can the Catholic Church ensure they are and will be celibate. Sexuality does not stay only in the brain and is bound to surface in behavior sooner or later. – that question applies to them all, no matter their sexual orientation.
Seriously now: do you think that a 27 year-old priest with same-sex attraction can be sexually attracted to a 16 year-old boy? – to the same extent as a 27 year-old heterosexual priest can be sexually attracted to a 16 year-old girl.
All right I apologize for my comments generalizing and accusing Christians. I know that not all of you equate LGBT people to child rapists and think that we’re likely to go after little boys any time we get a chance or any time we get authority. For the people who do think that, I am going to pray for you that you see LGBT people as the beautiful humans they are that God created exactly as they are instead of through the prejudicial lenses you’ve concocted that didn’t come from God, but from man. And I do love you all, too much to allow you all to continue to see and treat your fellow humans and Christians this way. All churches should be safe places for all sinners, where no one is treated worse, or relegated to second class, or has to hide who they are, or ostracized especially for something as intrinsic as sexual orientation. And I’m not saying homosexual acts are moral, but the people are God’s children and no different from anyone else. So I’ll pray for you all, and I love you all. I pray we can all find peace and people like me won’t always be ostracized from the places we are supposed to be most loved. Amen.
If anyone is interested in understanding the reality of male-male sexual abuse and why it doesn’t apply to the average gay or bisexual man (no more than male-female sexual abuse applies to the average heterosexual man) please examine this article and please don’t listen to apologism that doesn’t understand the psychology behind sexual abuse of males, particularly young pubescent males, because that seems to be where the confusion is: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html.
And if you choose to ignore the research on the subject, please keep in mind you’re choosing to do damage to not only LGBT people (particularly men, who seem to bear the brunt of the “pedo” hysteria), but to male victims of male perpetrators, who don’t need more speculation and blame and confusion surrounding their abuse. And please remember that abusing a teenage boy isn’t comparable to having a consensual relationship with an adult man. My father abused exclusively boys, starting as young as two or three year olds and into the later teen years, but he never was interested in men or having a consensual relationship with an adult man. Because he was a rapist, not a gay or bisexual guy. Men who abuse boys are no more comparable to men who have relationships with or are attracted to adult men than those who abuse girls are comparable to men who have relationships with or are attracted to adult women. The research backs me up, and attempts to stem sexual abuse should focus on abusers, not persecuting people for their sexual orientation, whether it’s exclusively towards other men, towards both men and women, or towards women exclusively.
Deluded Lib, One distinction I make from your view of homosexuality is that you call homosexuality as being same sex attraction; whereas I see homosexual behavior as actually acting out sexually or initiating sexual contact towards somebody of the same gender.
Well most people are both, because most people make mistakes at least once in their life. That part, at least is true. But homo/bisexuality is the orientation. Homosexuals are exclusively attracted to same gender, bisexuals are attracted to both genders to a greater or lesser extent (I have about equal attraction to males and females), and heterosexuals are attracted to exclusively the opposite gender. You’re speaking of homosexual acts, which is engaging in sexual behavior with someone of the same gender. You can’t really choose not to be homo/bisexual, it’s hardwired in many people (though I do believe some people have fleeting desires and other issues that result in same sex attraction without being oriented that way, but many are oriented that way). You can choose to not engage in homosexual acts.
The argument was about men being excluded from the priesthood or other leadership positions (I suppose, and probably being excluded from working with or caring for children if I’m understanding people correctly) simply for being homosexual or bisexual. I don’t think that’s right. People keep telling me that they only consider it wrong to act on homosexual desires but I feel like people are lying to me, because it’s obvious to me many people dislike or distrust people for just being oriented that way, no behavior required. It’s exhausting and unfair. And I’m done with homo/bisexual men being equated to or viewed with the suspicion of being predators of young boys. I’m just done with it, it’s hurtful and damaging and untrue. Gay and bi men are not any more likely to abuse your children than heterosexual men are, we’re just people. Some good some bad and I think that we’re supposed to love all people, not exclude and shun people for an orientation.
“Why are some Catholic hospitals dispensing contraceptives?”
Most Catholic women use contraception, same as is true for non-Catholics, same as is true for all women in the US – so it’s true of the women going to Catholic hospitals, regardless of religion. Most Catholics think birth control is morally acceptable – over 80%.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birth-control-morally.aspx
Most Catholics think birth control is morally acceptable
LOL. Most Catholics think it is morally acceptable to only attend Mass at Christmas and Easter (throw in a funeral and wedding occasionally) too, Barney.
I have about equal attraction to males and females
Does this fluctuate with the weather?
:)
“Why, oh why, are most people here not addressing the topic of the post – that is, the sin of contraceptives (many of the abortifacients) being distributed by Catholic hospitals?”
In some round-about ways, I think we are Janet. Contraceptives have added more worms to the can than just abortion.
Jack, my apologies for my comment in response to yours. It slipped my mind that I have told you in the past that I would not discuss issues surrounding homosexuality with you for fear that my comments be misunderstood or that they hurt your feelings. I never intend to trigger old wounds of yours so it is best that we refrain from discussing these together. Technically, I guess I was commenting about bi-sexuality, not homosexuality, but I will try my best to try to keep from conversing with you directly on the topic.
Janet, if you read through the post, Voris does go into other topics other than just contraception. I think he is focusing on accountability and not just on one topic; he says, “Why are homosexual men allowed to run rampant in the ranks of the clergy?” in addition to “Why are politicians allowed to keep advertising them selves as Catholic as they champion the culture of death?”
I have been told a story from someone I trust about a man from my area who quit the seminary years ago claiming he was driven out by homosexual men. Then there can be problems with men and women having close friends of the same gender but being accused of being homosexual that we need to keep in mind. My ex started this rumor about me and my best female friend. When I talk about my female friends or my daughter’s friends, I use the word “girlfriends” but my children correct me saying that I should just say “friends” or otherwise I sound homosexual. (like I asked Carla about her calling her close female friends ‘babe’)
I told my kids that when I was growing up, that is how females referred to each other. It is sad, really, that so much focus has been put on sexuality rather than friendship since the sexual revolution of the 60s. Boys are afraid to show any affection towards each other for fear of being called gay and I see this happening with girls too. If they do have a close platonic friendship, I believe that some lead them to believe that they are actually gay, when they are just looking for a platonic friend. I totally believe that there is an agenda at work in our country targeting our young people.
Why are Catholic youth not being taught the evil of contraception?
My husband and I teach this in religious education. It has not increased our popularity in our liberal community to say the least. Christians are human and want to fit in just like everyone else. It is not easy being shunned or bullied. Like my mom would say to me when I was a kid when I argued about having to do a chore, “It would be easier for me to do it myself than to listen to you bicker, but then you wouldn’t learn anything.” If you are Christian, and you believe contraception is a sin, you should be telling others this. You don’t have to be a priest, nun, pastor or bishop to do so. Accountability pertains to all of us. I pray that Jesus lets me live long enough to be able to look him in the eye after my death.
Be not afraid. Speaking from experience this is often easier said than done but I’ll keep plugging away.
So in summation.
There ought to be more accountability among spiritual leaders and we all agree on that. Also, just because a man or woman is oriented towards being homosexuals does not mean that they will molest and abuse your children anymore than heterosexual abusers.
Also, sometimes Catholic hospitals have contraception for other purposes than stopping the production of babies.
For a few weeks now, I have been blogging about the concept of vulnerability and how it relates to abortion. Much in line with the concept of vulnerability is the notion of intimacy. Much too often, intimacy is intellectually restricted to the attraction between adult lovers. It is IMO the ‘normal’ relational attitude of children – particularly very young children. This is perceived as a dreaded weakness, to be shunned and ostracized from the ‘adult’ world,
Perhaps, I’ll tell you a true story about Danielle, when he was 5. His teacher asked her class to draw a picture about when they were like Jesus. Daniel drew a picture of two people lying on a bed watching tv. What Daniel had drawn was watching tv with his very ill Grandpa, soon to die from his cancer. Daniel had crawled into his Grandpa’s bed to be with him (console him). [He did the same to me as I snoozed on my bro/s-i-l rec-room couch.]
It has taken much un-learning, but Christianity is much like the little boy (Jesus) who takes you (often without speaking one word) and guides you to His Abba(Daddy). He then whispers something like … ‘him too — my brother!’
Too often we get embarrassed if our young-un leads a homeless man to Poppa, never realizing that we are that weak/forlorn/vulnerable one, seeking the security of intimacy.
I avoided this thread for a reason and voila, my expectations were correct. Jack has the ability to write very well, but didn’t use much of that skill here. When overcome by emotion, he wrote comments that remind me of my 12 year old self, “every body hates me!” Now, lots of people hate on the Church and you can blame us for the abuse scandal, or we can blame ourselves. But sooner or later the homosexual community is going to look in the mirror. And you will have to ask yourselves the hard questions you are avoiding. I know personally 2 homosexual men whose lost custody of their adopted boys for this reason: when the boys reached puberty, the men “taught them to masturbate.” They were not priests nor “charismatic.”
“Now, lots of people hate on the Church and you can blame us for the abuse scandal, or we can blame ourselves. ”
I blame predators for the abuses, not random Catholics. And I blame the hierarchy for moving abusive priests around.
“But sooner or later the homosexual community is going to look in the mirror. And you will have to ask yourselves the hard questions you are avoiding.”
Look in the mirror for what? How in the world is the “homosexual community” responsible for slimey predators? Are you personally responsible for when men rape women, because you’re straight? I’m going to consider you responsible for my dad because he was claimed to be heterosexual by others. That’s exactly as fair as demanding non-straight people answer for predators that happen to be gay.
Anyway, of course it’s me bad for being “overcome with emotion” and everyone has time to talk down to me. But people can talk all thread about how LGBT people can’t control themselves, can’t be trusted, likely to screw kids instead of adults if you put then in the priesthood, and no one but LibertyBelle says anything about it. If you can consider me responsible and have to answer for random predators I’ve never met and have nothing to do with because of my sexuality, then it’s certainly perfectly fair of me to hold you responsible for all gay hate just because you are Christian.
No worries Prax. I’m not even mad at people really, I just didn’t realize this is really how y’all view us. I let myself believe something else.
I don’t understand what the point us of blaming the LGBT community anyway besides deflection. I’ve never in my life seen people blame heterosexuals as a whole for the molestation of girls or the abuse of adult women, but If a male is abused by a male it’s all about the gays. Have you ever wondered how that makes the victims feel? To be used to further bigotry against LGBT people, it’s doesn’t seem like genuine concern for the victims. And people twist this so much that they end up blaming the victims for their own assaults if they are not straight. It would fit right in with my parents church. I can’t believe I almost let myself fall for this stuff AGAIN.
Jack try this out … you know from-the-inside what persecution means. In JESUS’ DAY THE CROSS MEANT:: THE-ONE-WHO-DIED-DESERVED-IT-AND-WAS-PROBABLY-A-CRIMINAL-ANYWAY///He-got what-He-deserved and He still does! Part of ‘what He deserves’ is me, is it you, too? Inclusion means inclusion-in-intimacy and it really stings. (Truth-hurts-bigtime!) A Christian has a chronic case of weakness-vulnerability.
I’m not sure what you mean John, I’m sorry. I don’t know what you mean by “inclusion in intimacy” in regards to this thread. I don’t see much inclusion, I do see some attempts at exclusion.
If my heterosexual son grew up to be abusive, you can be certain I’d be asking myself hard questions. Did I contribute? How? Are we so politically correct that minors are paying the price? Is the divorce culture contributing? Nobody gets a free pass in life: we are too interconnected as a species to deny that we are all our brother’s keepers.
Yes, as his mother, you would need to ask yourself some tough questions. If my children, whether they were gay or straight or in between, grew up to be abusers, I would be asking myself and their mother all kinds of tough questions. What you’re expecting out of the “homosexual” community is something else entirely. We’re not a monolith, sitting around hiding abusers because they happen to be gay. Most gays and bis aren’t even Catholic, how is it our responsibility to “ask questions” and “look in the mirror” in regards to things that happened in Catholic churches? I refuse to take responsibility for abuses I have no part of and actually work actively against. I refuse to hate myself anymore for a quirk of nature that isn’t my fault and I have no control over. Especially when I’ve spent the majority of my adult life working to protect children and do what I can to change the culture so children, women, and men are safe from sexual assault as well as other violence.
So the church I grew up in blamed my sexuality for my dad’s abuse of me, because he was married to a woman and had six kids, so obviously it was his f**got junkie kid who was at fault. Can’t blame an upstanding married dude for it, got to blame someone else. Hey, I made an easy target for blame, minorities (whether it’s sexual orientation or race) and kids always do. I was fifteen at the time and the abuse started before I could talk, it obviously had nothing to do with my sexual orientation. I have blamed myself for that for years and years. No more. I am not blaming myself for other people’s bad behavior, when the only traits I share with some, a minority of abusers is sexual orientation. And I refuse to let people be picked on and excluded and blamed for something that’s intrinsic. If the evidence actually supported that gay and bi men molest at statistically significant higher percentages than straight men, that would be a different story. I would be willing to talk about how maybe for the safety of kids, gays and bis need to be treated differently when it comes to childcare and positions of authority. But it doesn’t support that, the evidence isn’t there. So to exclude or focus on gays and bis is not only prejudicial, it’s not even protecting children.
The Church, like I said further up in the thread, actually took great accountability (eventually, it took them a while but they got there), and made some massive changes and worked very hard to change their policies to protect children. And it wasn’t even necessary for them to vilify gays and bis to do so. They focused on adults, because anyone can be an abuser, and protecting children from anyone who would do them harm. They gave everyone who worked with the kids, including women who don’t commit nearly as many sex crimes as men do, background checks and training to recognize abuse. They changed their policies so people weren’t being left alone with children, not only did it protect kids but it protected priests and other men and women from false or confused accusations. They’ve done a good job. And it’s working, there are not even a fraction as many abuses being reported and occurring in recent years since these policies have been put in place. I’m sorry the Church hasn’t gotten the credit they deserve for doing their best after a rocky start, I have tried to give them credit. I will also give them credit for (for the most part) not blaming it on those icky same sex attracted men and actually focusing on everyone, all adults, that have access to children. The Boy Scouts and other organizations that have had these same issues should follow suit. And blaming and abusing gay and bi people was never necessary.
Any time people bring up the horrible things people have done in the name of or supported by specific churches or denominations of Christianity, you all (rightly) protest that you can’t be held responsible for people’s bad behavior. There’s nothing intrinsic in Christianity that causes people to abuse or harm others. Unfortunately some Christians do abuse and harm others, and some do it in the name of Jesus which is disgusting and horrifying. And it’s not fair to other Christians when you get generalized. You all shouldn’t be lumped together with the few bad people who have done horrific things when the only thing you have in common with the abusers is that you both claim the same religion. I do that sometimes and I apologize, it’s not right of me to do so. But you shouldn’t treat LGBT people the way that you have been treated by others. You shouldn’t lump us all together with the worst of us, expect us to accept blame for crimes committed by someone who may or may not be gay or bi, and shouldn’t exclude us because of fear (which is literally homophobia). LGBT people are people. Not a monolith, not a big scary “gay culture” or “homosexual agenda”, not a bunch of child molesters. We’re not responsible for, and the vast majority of us despise and are disgusted by, sex crimes and pedophilia and pederasty.
And it’s victim blaming to expect me specifically, and any other gay or bi individual who has been victimized by male-male sexual abuse, to “answer for” or “look in the mirror” for sexual assault committed by people who abuse males predominately. There wasn’t anything I could have done to prevent the assaults committed against me or anyone else. My abusers aren’t me, I don’t have to answer for their crimes just because we share some DNA or possibly a sexual orientation (for some of them, like I said my father wasn’t a gay man, he was a sexual sadist and a rapist, he had no interest in consensual sex with adult men). Some of the people who preyed on me were women, I certainly don’t think I am responsible for that. And I don’t have to answer for crimes committed by other men who might share my sexual orientation, especially strangers I’ve never met, don’t know anything about, and certainly do not support or excuse in any way. I’m tired of being victim blamed and held responsible for things that I have and had no control over. I do my best to prevent sexual abuse and rape, especially in regards to male victims. I don’t deserve to be lumped in with possible abusers because of some wiring problem that caused me not to be a normal straight guy. Most gay and bi guys are like me in that way, just normal guys with an unfortunate screw loose. Doesn’t make any of us pervs and pedos, and doesn’t mean we are responsible for or have anything to answer for in regards to sexual assault.
I keep speaking of my father in the present tense, like he’s still alive. I guess I’m still scared of him in a way, these conversations make him feel very present.
Prax, I need to issue you (and any other Christians it is applicable to) a sincere apology. When I answered you, I generalized again, as if all Christians agree with the things being said on this thread, and that wasn’t fair of me. If I’m arguing against generalizing and bigotry and blaming people for things that they have no control of or participation in, I can’t very well do it myself without being a hypocrite and making my points look stupid. So I do apologize. I know Christians are diverse people and have various views about all issues, and I can’t decide that any of you are responsible for anyone else’s interpretations and opinions on homosexuality or any other issue. Please forgive me and I’ll do my best to stop my generalizing. I’ve done it in a few other comments on this thread as well. So I’m sorry to you Prax and any other Christians it is applicable to. I shouldn’t let my hurt feelings or “triggers” make me into the kind of person I’m complaining about.
I’d like to say that I’ve actually been super convicted lately about getting all up in arms about nameless groups of people. We all do it – and after becoming a mom, I’ve seen it viciously in the Mommy Wars. Whether it is homosexuals, pro-vaccination or anti, illegal immigrants, etc. we tend (especially on the internet) blast away at a group, without thinking that there are very real people and real hearts and real faces and lives and hurts that make up these groups. I’ve been guilty of this a lot of times.
At least on my part, I’ve been trying to only say things about a group that I’d be comfortable saying to a person in that group face to face. That way, it’s easier for me to speak about the ideas and less likely to jump straight to generalizations and ad hominems.
For the Christians here, it is so so so easy to talk about ‘the evils of the homosexual lobby’ or how the homosexual agenda is ruining marriage (hint: it’s not). It’s easy to make these sweeping, devastating statements that you would not dare say to the gay man sitting in the cubicle next to you, or the lesbian woman checking out your groceries. So let’s try to calm down a bit and realize that, while yes, there are certain homosexual lobbyists who go too far or whatever, your average joe is not out to ruin your religion. They want to be loved and respected just like everyone else. And as Christians, is that not what we’re called to do?
Thank you LibertyBelle.
“At least on my part, I’ve been trying to only say things about a group that I’d be comfortable saying to a person in that group face to face. That way, it’s easier for me to speak about the ideas and less likely to jump straight to generalizations and ad hominems.”
This is why I try to use myself as an example and speak about my personal experiences if people are bashing on or being unfair to a group I’m a part of. It’s not just self-absorption, I swear lol. It’s easy to dehumanize a faceless group, it’s a bit harder to dehumanize someone you’re conversing with who is telling you how this stuff hurts. Most people aren’t cruel, but everyone has a tendency to “other” those that are in a group you either disagree with or fear. And yes, people do tend to confuse the average gay person with what lobbyists do, which is about as fair and accurate as deciding all Christians are represented by WBC and Pat Robertson.
while yes, there are certain homosexual lobbyists who go too far or whatever
Thank you but not whatever. No one should be harassed and bullied for their religious beliefs. How would it sound if I said, “yes, there are WBC members who go too far or whatever.” It doesn’t mean one thing to the individual(s) being harassed or bullied.
I’ve been on the receiving end of “or whatever” and it is wrong, wrong, wrong. I’ve been bullied by people who I have never discussed my beliefs with but who know that I am Catholic and disagree with me teaching my beliefs.
People being bullied out of places like a seminary, a dorm, their home or places of employment because of their religious belief is wrong. I am not a hater of anyone because I believe acting on homosexuality is a sin; no different than I am a hater of women who have an abortion because I believe having an abortion is a sin.
Deluded One, The reason people think homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia is because both homosexuality and pedophilia are deviant sexual behaviors. I am not saying that homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia; I am merely pointing out to you why many people might gravitate towards believing that.
We all do it
“He who says there is no such thing as an honest man, you may be sure is himself a knave.” – George Berkely
Sigh. Prax. I wasn’t saying that to dismiss what homosexual lobbyists do. They indeed bully. The people who punish others for religious beliefs is wrong and sick. It is!
And the Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Prax. We’re all sinners, every one of us – I chief among them. So you can honestly tell me you have never ever made generalizations? You’ve never said things about a group of people that you would never dream of saying to a single member of that group if they were standing in front of you? If so, good for you. But I’d venture to say most of us have, if we’re honest. I have. And it pains me to think of it, but I have. Again, I’m not talking about the militant lobbyists. Just like we as pro-lifers don’t want to be associated with those who claim to be prolife and murder abortionists or call women going into the clinics bloody baby killers who are going to hell.
I’m not saying bullying is okay. It’s not. Not from gays and not from straights. Bullying is bad. But the LGBT community is made up of people.
Have you ever considered that bullies have often been bullied? They are often hurting people. It does not excuse the behavior. Not at all. I’m just saying to stop painting all people in a group with the same brush.
To quote Rapunzel from the movie Tangled: Find your humanity!!
;)
Jack you’re welcome. I love you like a brother from another mother. ;)
I ought to stop coming to this thread though. It’s hurting my heart. There’s just so much animosity. :( But then again, I’ve always been compelled to speak up for the underdog, for the oppressed, for the hurting.
“The reason people think homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia is because both homosexuality and pedophilia are deviant sexual behaviors. I am not saying that homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia; I am merely pointing out to you why many people might gravitate towards believing that. ”
They aren’t even comparable deviant behaviors. Not even close. People who wish to compare them and believe it’s correct to paint LGBT people as pedophiles are wrong and should examine themselves to find out why they have such a lack of care and love for fellow human beings. It’s a very hurtful thing to be believe and say. Gay and bi boys have a suicide rate that’s four times the rate for straight boys. I have heard people blame the boys for this, as if they are weak or something. But hearing how you’re equivalent to or likely to be a child rapist over and over, how you’re a deviant and a pervert and how you should be excluded from this and kept away from that, especially if you’ve been abused yourself or otherwise have had a bad time in life, can really cause some severe mental damage that takes years to recover from, if it’s possible to recover at all.
“I ought to stop coming to this thread though. It’s hurting my heart. There’s just so much animosity. But then again, I’ve always been compelled to speak up for the underdog, for the oppressed, for the hurting. ”
Well thank you for saying something, I do appreciate it. Usually it’s just me arguing against this stuff. Which is funny, in a sad way. There’s no shortage of people to tell me how terrible it is to act out homosexual behavior or even how bad it is to be gay or bi, but there’s crickets when people say awful things about LGBT people. I don’t know why people are so shocked when I say I’m uncomfortable in church and haven’t ever felt safe or accepted in one. I’m not making excuses, I drag myself there every Sunday but I wish it were a more pleasant and joyous experience. I don’t really understand why this is the sin everyone focuses on, and it’s not one you can get away from. You can refrain from homosexual behavior but you can’t stop existing.
Prax, additionally, I also believe that acting on homosexuality is a sin. And I ought not to be bullied for that.
But I also think it breaks the Father’s heart when LGBT kids are bullied into suicide. It breaks my heart every single time. Did you know that a *nine* year old boy committed suicide this week? Nine. I cried. I can tell you that that bullying is wrong and disgusting. But from what I’ve seen here today with the conflating all homosexually leaning men to automatically being pedophiles is wrong too. And I’ve seen enough from Christians to see that they really do bully gays but in subtle, hurtful ways. It only alienates them from Christ’s love and does nothing.
It’s odd that this blog never mentions Michael Voris’s ardent belief that the force driving the destruction of all of Western civilization is Protestantism.
So you can honestly tell me you have never ever made generalizations?
I wasn’t referring to me. You made the generalization when you said, “We all do it.” I have in the past. I have not on this thread. But there are those among us who have not and they are few and far between, but they do exist.
Yes, bullies have been bullied. Absolutely they are hurt people, hurting people. It does not mean they should not be called out when they bully. After all this thread does talk about accountability. I see certain agendas being pushed that hurt others, especially children and I will not be bullied into silence. I will continue to teach what the Catholic Church teaches even though I and Her members fall short.
Thanks for more great words of wisdom, John M.
Deluded Lib, one other thing, even though I don’t think you would sexually abuse my children I would have reservations leaving them in your care if you were living a homosexual lifestyle. Does that make me a bigot or a hater in your eyes?
I wouldn’t call you a bigot or a hater. It does make me want to cry though. I love kids, I’d die to protect any kid, and everyone seems to think I’m a danger to them for something I didn’t choose. And you sound like my mom.
“You can refrain from homosexual behavior but you can’t stop existing.”
Deluded One, if the man next to you in the pew couldn’t help look at women in church and have sexual thoughts about them; the rest of the congregation would never even know unless he liked to boast and make that have primacy in how he defines himself as a person. There is so much to people than sexuality. Why do you let yours dominate your life?
Gah. I never said bullies shouldn’t be called out. I never said you shouldn’t discuss your principles. Or anyone, for goodness’ sake.
Lawd a mercy.
I’m just sick and tired of the generalizations of a group of people who are greatly misunderstood and quite often slighted in the church (Catholics and protestants). It’s so sad. Again, I am in no way saying that you can’t stand up for your principles. I’m saying say it in a way that you would if a gay man were standing in front of you.
I don’t know how old you are, but perhaps it’s a generational thing about the way we see homosexuality. But the way that gays are treated especially by Christians is heartbreaking.
But for what it’s worth. I’d much rather make all sinners feel welcome in God’s grace and then let God deal with conviction. And let those who are in a mentoring/leading role in that person’s life deal with sin. All sin. Any sin. Sin of sexual and nonsexual natures alike.
If I’m to err, I would err on the side of grace. For immeasurable, inconceivable, incredible grace is by some miracle extended to me. My heart at times does not accept it, but it’s there. And if it can be given to me, who am I to stand in the way of open, patient Abba-arms extended to any other human being on the face of this planet?
I don’t see you as danger. I just wouldn’t want to put them in a position where they would get exposed to thinking male on male behavior is just another acceptable lifestyle when I see it is contrary to God’s plan for mankind.
But I also think it breaks the Father’s heart when LGBT kids are bullied into suicide.
NO Christian here is saying it is okay to bully ANYONE into suicide. Period. What does it do to Jesus’ heart when adults give a nine-year-old CHILD a sexual orientation label? A young child took his own life and he did not need to be labeled by anyone. What part of LGBT was he? Who made that decision for him of what he should be labeled? Who generalized and put him in a group that he was far too young to comprehend?
Agenda.
I really wouldn’t mind them getting to know you or playing catch with you. I think there is very much about you that could help them grow into children of God.
I am calling irt an early night. The peace of Jesus Christ be with you.
I don’t truth. Other people do it for me. I tell exactly zero people in real life, besides my ex, what I am. People figure it out or assume, sometimes, I think I’m soft-spoken or some other stereotype. And then they treat me poorly for it. Plus it’s actually really difficult to sit there and hear how much people dislike people like you, all the while they have no idea they are actually talking about you.
And anyway, you are the one who told me being closeted is akin to lying, and that you consider men who are attracted to other men but keep quiet about it untrustworthy. So there’s no way to win, really. Keep quiet, you’re a liar and untrustworthy if people find out. Admit what you are, you’re untrustworthy and should be excluded and treated badly. There’s really no way to win.
And anyway, I see people get support and care for sins they struggle with in the church, and people don’t judge and treat people badly for the things they struggle with. Is same sex attraction different? People just need to shut up and put up, I guess? Like I said, there’s no real way to win. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
“What does it do to Jesus’ heart when adults give a nine-year-old CHILD a sexual orientation label?”
I know you won’t really respond to me and I respect your wishes but I just have to say, I knew what I was just a little older than that and I grew up in a very anti-gay church. No one told me I was but I knew. But what I think is more likely is the kid was probably soft-spoken or “girly” or “effeminate” and got labelled by other people and was bullied for those characteristics. You don’t even have to be LGBT to be bullied for being LGBT.
Me too, truthseeker. The Peace of Jesus Christ be also with you and everyone else reading this thread.
Good night truth and Prax.
“And anyway, I see people get support and care for sins they struggle with in the church, and people don’t judge and treat people badly for the things they struggle with. Is same sex attraction different?”
Deluded Lib, One thing leads to another. 1) 1st priority in any relationship to be honest about yourself. 2) People do not go to church in order to be accepted for living in sin. Approach the church with the attitude of looking to ‘get help for your sins’ including help with overcoming your history of sexual activity with males in the past. 3) If you can assure the church that you that you truly wish to sin no more then they should be able to accept you and help you.
Let me ask you a question. What is the biggest reason you want to rid yourself of homosexuality?
LisaC, Here is another one of Voris’s videos (a bit longer) that you may be interested in sharing with others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcmKHqH56_4
“1) 1st priority in any relationship to be honest about yourself. 2) People do not go to church in order to be accepted for living in sin. Approach the church with the attitude of looking to ‘get help for your sins’ including help with overcoming your history of sexual activity with males in the past. 3) If you can assure the church that you that you truly wish to sin no more then they should be able to accept you and help you. ”
Yeah but you cannot be honest with yourself if people will harm or shun you for what you are. I don’t know why you can’t understand that. If gay people are constantly painted by Christians as disgusting people five seconds away from raping kids why on God’s green earth would you expect people to be honest? Have I just met unusually terrible people or something? This whole loving accepting thing, I’ve never seen it. It doesn’t matter if you’re celibate and abstinent or having a different male partner a week, people see you the same. You can see just on this thread that people think males with same sex attraction can’t control themselves, are less moral and pure than straight people, and are likely to go after kids if they get a chance. Nobody wants to help and support and nobody wants you to be around, because you’re disgusting and untrustworthy.
“Let me ask you a question. What is the biggest reason you want to rid yourself of homosexuality? ”
I told you that you can’t rid yourself of orientation. But I wish I could, I don’t want to be so disgusting and evil. I used to dream about having a church family or friends nad stuff like that, I wish
Voris is awful, I don’t understand why he’s so angry all the time.
“It doesn’t matter if you’re celibate and abstinent or having a different male partner a week, people see you the same.” That is not true.
“I don’t want to be so disgusting and evil.” I was hoping you would say that it was because you wanted to live according to God’s will.
Maybe some people view you differently if you’re celibate versus sexually active, but in my experience they treat you just as terribly either way. Just look at what people have to say on this thread.
I thought evil was everything outside of God’s will? Isn’t that the same thing?
Can an atheist make judgement upon what they believe is good and what is evil?
I’m not an atheist.
And sure, atheists decide what they think is good and evil all the time. I don’t see what it has to do with the conversation though, since we were talking about God.
I referred to God. You did not refer to God; you referred to evil. And you yourself said that atheists can describe things in terms of good and evil. That is why I was making the distinction between somebody saying that want to stop acting evil and somebody saying they want to stop acting according to their own will and act in ways that are God’s will instead. One other thing, in the not so distant past you also called yourself an agnostic struggling to believe in God; so that is why I thought it important to make the distinction.
If it weren’t for God I wouldn’t find anything wrong with being gay or bi. Why would I? Anyway, I give up. I don’t think there are any good answers and things don’t really get better. Peace man.
Do you personally feel there is something wrong with your actions when you act out homosexually. For instance, I know myself that I never practiced sodomy because it felt wrong to even try.
I understand if you need to bail. We are getting pretty personal here. Have a blessed day and may God’s holy angels bless and keep you.
In a way I attribute my intrinsic sense of sinful behavior to God’s Holy Spirit inside of me helping me form a conscience. So indirectly I suppose you are right that it is only through the grace of God that we are holy.
Dude I’m no discussing sex like that on this blog. If you want you can get my email from Carla and we can discuss over email. It’s personal stuff.
And btw not nearly all gy or bi people like “sodomy”, I personally think it’s a gross sex act and not one I would willingly partake in. Just to be clear.
The reason people think homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia is because both homosexuality and pedophilia are deviant sexual behaviors. – which just makes them doubly wrong. There’s enough information readily available for any sensible person to know better.
The reason I was asking those questions of you is because I wanted to find out if you found homosexuality repulsive because Scripture says so or because people tell you so or because you believe yourself that it is repulsive?
I don’t find homo/bisexuality intrinsically repulsive, no. It’s a religious thing or how other people treat it.
What about women who take the Pill, but also use a back-up method of contraception, so maybe the chances of the Pill being an abortifacent could be much less or nonexistent?
Carla, can you give the Deluded Lib my email address or email me his address?
Why are some catholic hospitals dispensing contraceptives? – apparently because its what catholics want.
http://univision.data4.mx/resultados_catolicos/eng/ENG_catholic-survey.pdf
Interesting stuff!
Jack, I didn’t realize you were part of the LGBT community, and I think it’s brave of you to reveal that. I also don’t think that God necessarily pounds a fist down on anything other than heterosexuality. I’m agnostic, for the record.
Like you, I’ve met great people on this blog who have shown me that the Christian view on LGBT issues can be very well thought-out and rational, even when I don’t agree with its relative importance in a life philosophy.
There are also people who just hate anything different than their own views and want to destroy that, although I think they are few and far between on this site. ( And I suspect there’s some evolutionary value to destroying members of the tribe who don’t toe the line.)
What I absolutely don’t get is anyone placing a homosexual “influence” above the fact that someone is a cold-blooded rapist who doesn’t give a tiny rat’s booty about the lives s/he savages.
How could a sexual terrorist not trump a homosexual? We’re talking about a rapist! There are no excuses, or even explanations!
Any apologists can apologize as loud as they want, but I can’t give any more examples than better writers like Jack and LB have already thrown out there.
And seriously? When you’re called on the carpet for behaviour you should never exhibit as even a minimally decent human being, let alone a moral/religious leader, how could anyone possibly go after an excuse to absolve someone of that sort of disgusting abuse of basic human trust?
And it’s just because there’s a gay influence in the seminary? Seriously, how much of a worthless loser d0es one have to be sexually assault a minor, no matter what the “circumstances” and no matter the gender of the victim. Hardcore rehab time for anyone thinking that’s okay, or even explainable, without some serious penance.
By no means tarring all Christians with this brush, but seriously!
It’s at times like this that I get so angry, I really want to move the eff away from humans and just start a colony of cats and dogs. Small rodents welcome also, for their intelligence over so many of us humans.
Lizards too Roxy? How about them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian_%28Doctor_Who%29
Whoa! (I’ve never actually watched Dr. Who.)
I’m sorry for losing my temper so badly. I know no one here is in any way condoning abuse, but I do find it weird to think something so terrible can be explained away by sexual orientation. There comes a point where an abuser has to decide to go ahead with this kind of behaviour, and if basic humanity doesn’t kick in, then that person is seriously, seriously messed up, no matter whatever else they may be.
“reality:” They are however the bigger question is this: how can the Catholic Church ensure they are and will be celibate. Sexuality does not stay only in the brain and is bound to surface in behavior sooner or later. – that question applies to them all, no matter their sexual orientation.
Seriously now: do you think that a 27 year-old priest with same-sex attraction can be sexually attracted to a 16 year-old boy? – to the same extent as a 27 year-old heterosexual priest can be sexually attracted to a 16 year-old girl.
Well “reality” your responses are wrong on both counts. According to the John Jay report:
Profile of the victims:
The John Jay report found that 81% of the victims were male. 22% of victims were younger than age 10, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 27% were between the ages 15 and 17 years.
This is taken from the 2010 updated John Jay report. In light of these findings are you “reality” attempting to cover up the abuse of 81 percent of boys? Your deflection of heterosexual priests being attracted to young girls, although serious from the 19 percent, does not trump the 81 percent of boys. You may benefit from revisiting your conclusions.
“reality:” “The reason people think homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia is because both homosexuality and pedophilia are deviant sexual behaviors. – which just makes them doubly wrong. There’s enough information readily available for any sensible person to know better. “
No “reality” it does not make anyone doubly wrong because pedophilia is a deviant sexual behavior. You may argue that homosexuality is not but to throw in pedophilia in there to support “doubly wrong” just makes you a supporter of child abuse, and I don’t think you are.
WOW!!!! What long and heated discourses on this issue. I will not get in on the middle of this after coming in on the end of it. This is such a hot topic right now. Most of us never imagined years ago that we would one day come to this; discussing sexuality, sexual behaviors, what is normal, what is not normal, what is a family, never imagined that there would be discussions about LGBTQ issues, etc. (yes I am old, I admit it). There were ministers years ago who taught the scriptures like 2 Peter Chapter 2 and 3 that pointed to this time I don’t hear much about this now days from the pulpit but I think it is unfolding before my eyes. WOW!
Jack, I just want you to know you continue to be in my prayers for God’s best for you and your children. I do know that God loves you and wants to heal your hurts from your abusive past and that he is a God of miracles and transformation that can make you (and me too) ”a new creation in Christ and old things can be passed away”. That Jesus said he came to give us “LIFE more abundantly” (I love that word and being PRO-LIFE) and he came to “set the captives free” and to “heal the brokenhearted” . I pray God’s peace beyond understanding will be with you. I am glad that you are here. I believe “God has a plan for you to give a future and a hope, not for your destruction or your harm”.
Thomas (or Del, or truthseeker, or any straight guy), just answer me this. Do any of you heterosexual men consider yourselves similar or equivalent to men who rape girls of any age, pre-pubescent, pubescent, or post-pubescent? Do you consider those men representative of your sexual orientation? Do you think when girls get raped you as a heterosexual male should be blamed by equivalence to the perpetrators because you supposedly share a sexual orientation with the perps (though, like I’ve been saying, abuse of children and young adolescents is quite a different thing than being attracted to adults)? I don’t understand why you can’t see the difference between rape/molestation and consensual sex, and the difference between fixating on young people and being attracted to adults. Do you think focusing on “heterosexuals” as a whole would help prevent child abuse or rape?
Heck, do you even consider yourselves similar to men who rape adult women? I mean, you’re attracted to women too, so obviously you must be similar to rapists, right?
Oh and the numbers don’t support the evil gay meme at all. Just look at it. 73% of male victims were 14 or under. Like I asked before, and none of the heterosexual men bothered to answer me, do you guys consider girls under 14 to be sexually equivalent to adult women? Of course not, people attracted to children that young have a fixation on young people, especially since a good portion of that under 14 crowd (as in, the vast majority of them) would not even have started or finished puberty yet. These are child rapists and molesters, not people attracted to adult men.
I suppose if you really, really want to blame something on gay men, the 27% of victims ages 15 – 17 would be a start. But considering that only 4% of priests were found to be abusers in the first place, if you assume no overlap in victim ages then only 27% of 4% of priests could be considered gay men who went after post-pubescent teenagers. I believe that most sociologists estimate that 1 in 20 to 30 or so heterosexual men are rapists of adult women and post-pubescent girls, so it seems that the numbers are similar for homo/bisexual men. Child molesters are a different monster all together because many and most of them don’t have an adult sexual orientation, they fixate on children.
And I’ve read a lot of articles that estimate that priests and other celibate organizations have much higher rates of homo/bisexual oriented men for various reasons, so you also have to consider the large amount of gay priests who remained completely abstinent and don’t deserve to be vilified along with the rapists that unfortunately were trusted with the priesthood.
“Most of us never imagined years ago that we would one day come to this; discussing sexuality, sexual behaviors, what is normal, what is not normal, what is a family, never imagined that there would be discussions about LGBTQ issues, etc. (yes I am old, I admit it). There were ministers years ago who taught the scriptures like 2 Peter Chapter 2 and 3 that pointed to this time I don’t hear much about this now days from the pulpit but I think it is unfolding before my eyes. WOW ”
I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. Before the issues were hidden and non-heterosexuals were vilified even more than they are now. People could be arrested or fined, beatings and other abuses weren’t uncommon, as well as other problems that come with suppressing and ostracizing a portion of the community. Even today around 40% of homeless teenagers are LGBT, because they get kicked out of their home or tormented until they run off. That’s a hugely disproportionate number of homeless kids who aren’t straight. So I would rather people talk about stuff and have some uncomfortable conversations than continue to harm and oppress people who aren’t “normal”.
And thank you for the prayers Prolifer L. And thanks Roxy I forgot to thank you too.
“Do you consider those men representative of your sexual orientation?”
I have a question for you too Jack. Since this thread was and is about priests who abused minors, majority of whom were boys – what is your take on those priests when considering the 81 percent of victimized boys (27% of whom were adolescent btw ages of 15-17)? I am not interested in the general population of homosexual men but I would like to know what motivated priests who had same sex attraction in their abusing boys. Only a small percentage were found to be pedophiles so where does it leave the rest of them?
“And I’ve read a lot of articles that estimate that priests and other celibate organizations have much higher rates of homo/bisexual oriented men for various reasons, so you also have to consider the large amount of gay priests who remained completely abstinent and don’t deserve to be vilified along with the rapists that unfortunately were trusted with the priesthood.”
Jack – don’t understand how you make this conclusion? I thought all along we were discussing the priests who engaged in the abusive behaviors. Personally I don’t know of any priests in the Catholic Church who are openly of the same sex attraction but that is not what this thread is about. I will tell you one thing though – if enough Polish people steal from Walmart and there is a record to support this profile, I would not be telling anyone at Walmart that I am Polish… Hope this makes sense.
Thomas, you’re ignoring the question, I’ll make it simple.
Do you consider men who rape girls under the age of 14 to be men with heterosexual attractions, or men attracted to or fixated on children? Do you think young girls are sexually equivalent to adult women?
The problem is you keep saying that it was “same sex attraction” when the problem was people preying on kids. I don’t understand why you cant see the difference. 73% under the age of fourteen. For goodness sake.
Hi Thomas I was thinking about it and I think we have two problems here.
We have a problem with overstating the ages and maturity of the boys who were abused. I don’t know what it is, but I notice this when victims of sexual assault are young boys a lot. People even treat 11 year old or even younger boys as if they are adolescents equivalent to an older teen boy or even a young adult man. It’s ridiculous, because I don’t see people calling 11 or 12 year olds “adolescents” and treating them as if they were equivalent to 17 year olds in any other context. 17 year olds can even consent to sex in some states legally, 11 to 14 year olds can certainly not. We recognize there are huge difference between “tweens” and young teenagers, and older teenagers, physically and mentally. I don’t know why this difference is being ignored in this conversation. What is it gaining you guys to pretend that attraction to (and abuse of) to boys this age is the same thing as attraction to (or even abuse of) men or even older teen boys who’ve finished puberty for the most part?
The other thing is focus on gender of the people involved in a sexual abuse situation rather than focus on the fact that it was rape and molestation. You see this in discussions of male-male sexual abuse all the time, the focus is always on how “gay” it is instead of the fact it was rape and molestation. People have done it to me with the abuse that my father perpetrated against me, which I found really effing offensive, let’s ignore the fact it was almost two decades of rape and incest against a very young child (at first) and focus on how it was between two males. I don’t understand this at all. It’s like people see sexual abuse of girls and women by men as “normal” or expected, but when male-male sexual abuse happens people trip over themselves in their haste to talk about how it’s homosexual. I think this has to be coming from homophobia, I don’t see another explanation for why the gender of the people in question seem to be the most important thing talked about with male-male sexual abuse.
So anyway, this conversation seems to be a combination of those two factors, the overstating of the maturity of these kids who were abused combined with this creepy fascination of the gender of the victims and perpetrators and how it’s “same sex attraction”. Focus should be on the fact that these were kids, mostly not through puberty kids being abused, and what happened wasn’t people acting out homosexual attractions, it was people using their position of privilege and power to sexually assault minors (the majority of which were pre-pubescent and pubescent, not post-pubescent). So if you’re really concerned about “root causes” and how to prevent this stuff in the future, focus on those things, about not allowing people to abuse their authority as a priest to act out their rape fantasies on children. For some reason the priesthood attracted a certain amount of men who were turned on by forcing sex on male children and adolescents, even when 96% of priests (including many, disproportionately compared to the general population, same sex attracted men) did nothing wrong and managed to either maintain celibacy or act out their sexuality with consenting adult partners. You don’t turn a normal gay guy into a rapist by enforcing celibacy, the worst you’ll turn him into is someone sneaking around having consensual affairs with men. Same for most straight guys. And I’ve already pointed out, I wonder how many of the rapists would have abused more females given the chance, alter boys and other young males were more available and open to abuse, the priests were more likely to have access to a 13 year old boy than a 13 year old girl, so that might have influenced the gender of the victims as well.
In light of these findings are you “reality” attempting to cover up the abuse of 81 percent of boys? – certainly not “thomas r.” I’m absolutely shocked that 81% of boys get abused!
And are you saying that heterosexual priests aren’t attracted to girls, just the homosexual ones to boys?
So here you are equating pedophilia with homosexuality because many of the victims are boys. Again.
And then you say You may argue that homosexuality is not but to throw in pedophilia in there to support “doubly wrong” just makes you a supporter of child abuse, and I don’t think you are – which shows how entrenched the error is amongst some folk.
They are wrong in the first instance by equating homosexuality with pedophilia.
They are wrong in the second instance by declaring homosexuality a deviant sexual behavior.
Making them doubly wrong.
And seemingly you.
Heck, do you even consider yourselves similar to men who rape adult women? I mean, you’re attracted to women too, so obviously you must be similar to rapists, right? - very good point Jack.
I don’t care if people want to argue if homo/bisexuality is “deviant”. It’s not a nice word with nice connotations, but technically it “deviates” from the normal orientation of being attracted to adult humans of the opposite sex. It’s like “abnormal”, it’s not a nice word with nice connotations but it’s technically correct, you can argue for kinder language but it’s hard to argue that homosexuality isn’t “abnormal” or “deviant” under certain definitions. What I don’t like is when people argue that same sex attractions are “unnatural”, when there is plenty of evidence that same sex behaviors are biologically influenced and present in many animal species. “Unnatural” isn’t even technically correct, “deviant” and “abnormal” might work I guess. But “perversion” is one word that shouldn’t ever be used imo, it’s just mean. But anyway that’s just an aside, not really important.
“And are you saying that heterosexual priests aren’t attracted to girls, just the homosexual ones to boys?
So here you are equating pedophilia with homosexuality because many of the victims are boys. Again.”
Because for some reason he’s arguing (probably not intentionally, but that’s what is going on) that young adolescent boys barely started and not all the way through puberty are sexually equivalent to adult men, and obviously men who are attracted to other men would be attracted to them. I don’t understand this at all. I don’t look at 13 year old girls and be like “look there’s a grown woman!”, obviously, that’s a kid, not a grown woman. I don’t know why boys are being portrayed as more mature than they are in this conversation, like I said this seems to be common in conversations about male-male sexual abuse. And that’s not even touching the fact (like in regards to the older boys who were abused, who were probably/possibly through puberty and looked more like adults), that same-sex attracted = sexually coercive rapists. These weren’t statutory crimes with a “consenting” younger partner for the most part, from what I read from victim statements there was a lot of emotional and sometimes physical coercion involved in most of these crimes even with the older boys. So, I don’t see how that’s comparable to someone being same sex attracted, anymore than any man coercing a 16 or 17 year old girl into sex would be comparable to a man who’s just a normal heterosexual. People are confusing sex and rape here and it’s really uncomfortable.
young adolescent boys barely started and not all the way through puberty are sexually equivalent to adult men, and obviously men who are attracted to other men would be attracted to them. I don’t understand this at all. I don’t look at 13 year old girls and be like “look there’s a grown woman!”, obviously, that’s a kid, not a grown woman. – yes. This, LDPL. It’s almost as if there is some blocked thinking.
Homosexuality is not ‘natural’ Jack. I think you are kidding yourself here. You must be joking. The primary purpose of sex in ‘nature’ is procreation.
I swear sometimes people really want others to hate themselves. It’s natural. Some people are just wired that way. From the evidence we currently have it seems to be mostly biologically influenced. Many species have same sex behaviors, a few even have pair-bonded same sex partners (I think swans do this on occasion). It appears that naturally some people will develop same sex attractions. It doesn’t make anyone “unnatural” or their orientation unnatural. Not being unnatural doesn’t mean that it’s moral, or that it’s okay to act on same sex attractions, but people aren’t some unnatural freaks for having them. It’s just a quirk of nature, some wiring issue.
“Primary”? What are the secondary etc. then?
Homosexuality occurs in hundreds of species. I’d call that natural.
You don’t have to like it or agree with it. That doesn’t mean it’s not something which is a part of nature. Your railing against it is what’s unnatural.
I think the insistence that homo/bisexual orientations are unnatural is when people tend to go from the (perfectly legitimate) position of being morally opposed to homosexual behavior, to bashing on LGBT people for just existing. It’s not unnatural for people just to be, homosexual or bisexual is just the way some people are made. Nothing bad about it. Acting on the behavior may be wrong, but it can’t possibly be unnatural or wrong to just be wired that way.
It’s pretty obvious what is unnatural when hundreds of species practise homosexuality but only one practises homophobia.
And as I have pointed out previously, it isn’t that long since being left-handed was considered unnatural and wrong.
I am not railing against anything. And I don’t want anyone to hate themselves. Nature makes two ‘sexes’. The reason they are defined by their ‘sexes’ is because the two different ‘sexes’ join together in sexual relations. Question for you. If a guy was attracted to men who dress like women would it be considered a same sex attraction?
You may not want anyone to hate themselves, but insisting that people are unnatural for having same sex attractions, when many of them are wired that way and have been their whole lives, is a fine way to induce self-hatred. It’d be like if I shamed a quirk of your personality, or some birthmark, or anything else that’s intrinsic to you that you didn’t ask for and can’t change. And remember I’m not saying it’s okay to act on the attractions, I’m saying the orientation is morally neutral and not unnatural in itself. Maybe it’s even good homo/bisexual people exist, maybe God made us to add good to the world. It’s not completely bad and wrong that not everyone is the same.
Uhh, a man attracted to other men who dress feminine is a gay or bi guy, maybe with a dress or femininity fetish or something. Who knows? Who cares? Why are you asking me? I don’t really care what floats other people’s boats if everyone’s consenting, it’s not my business unless I know them personally and we have a dialogue going.
Nature makes two ‘sexes’ – well you’re wrong there for a start.
Nor do they always join together in sexual relations.
Your question is pointless.
but insisting that people are unnatural for having same sex attractions, when many of them are wired that way and have been their whole lives, is a fine way to induce self-hatred – it also generates hatred in general. If you tell people that homosexuals are unnatural and biblically condemned and equate them with pedophiles it’s hardly any surprise that we see some of the outcomes that we do.
“it also generates hatred in general. If you tell people that homosexuals are unnatural and biblically condemned and equate them with pedophiles it’s hardly any surprise that we see some of the outcomes that we do.”
Yes the hatred in general thing is true. I really don’t think anything is wrong with being morally opposed to homosexual behavior, not everyone is going to agree on what is right or wrong and I don’t think it’s a good thing myself. But treated people like pariahs or terrible people is awful, especially when it’s aimed at the orientation and not the behavior (though it’s still wrong to bash on people for behavior that is consenting and agreed to be all parties). I don’t think people understand the depths of self-hatred that comes from telling people they are unnatural and how disgusting it is to be attracted to the same sex. I mean, I obviously have a really bad self-image and struggle to see myself positively. Maybe it comes from being called a fag more times than I can count and being told there’s something intrinsically evil and wrong with me for stuff I never had any control over and didn’t choose? Thanks Mom! Lol.
And the sad part is people think that they are completely in the right and people are just complaining because they don’t want to accept the immorality of homosexual behavior. No, that’s not it. I can definitely accept the immorality of homosexual behavior, I agree it’s not moral, but I can’t agree that it’s wrong just to be me! And I don’t think that LGBT people deserve to be shunned or compared to pedos constantly or called unnatural or perverts or degenerates or worse. It’s okay to disagree, it’s not okay to dehumanize and traumatize people for doing nothing other than living their lives.
“And I don’t think that LGBT people deserve to be shunned or compared to pedos constantly or called unnatural or perverts or degenerates or worse. It’s okay to disagree, it’s not okay to dehumanize and traumatize people for doing nothing other than living their lives. ”
…especially when we’re talking about mature, consenting adults.
Hi Blue Velvet I was thinking about you the other day and hoping you were doing well.
“…especially when we’re talking about mature, consenting adults.”
Yes.. I always think about people like the Duggars when people bash on LGBT people. I don’t agree with the Duggars, I honestly think the way they run their family is wrong and unhealthy in some ways. But how in the world is it my business? I don’t see why it would be okay for me to rail against them and call them names and such when it’s not my business at all to tell them what’s okay to do, even if I have personal opinions on it. And it’s definitely not okay to degrade and dehumanize them, or call them unnatural or perverted or accuse them of abusing children or whatever.
You talk about it being hard-wired or genetic and I don’t say it is not possible but I do say it is not the cause in many cases. I think there are many factors involved in ‘same sex attraction’. Many (not all) have a history of problematic relationships and show signs of psychological trauma. Many are homeless because they have abusive relationships and rejection they are running from and may see sex as a way to seek the close friendships that they so desperately want in their life.
You’ve put the cart before the horse there truthseeker.
Reality: It’s pretty obvious what is unnatural when hundreds of species practise homosexuality but only one practises homophobia. And as I have pointed out previously, it isn’t that long since being left-handed was considered unnatural and wrong.
Yeah – superstitions die out, usually. Some things are taking a while longer, but the fact remains that they cannot be proven to be anything beyond imaginary.
As far as the “gay” debate, I’m surprised how fast things have changed in the past decade. The writing, which has been overdue, is on the wall.
“You talk about it being hard-wired or genetic and I don’t say it is not possible but I do say it is not the cause in many cases. I think there are many factors involved in ‘same sex attraction’. ”
Actually, I don’t disagree that there are/can be different factors in the development of homo/bisexual orientations. And I didn’t say “genetic”, there’s some evidence that it’s genetically influenced, but that’s not the same thing as a “gay gene” that means you’re definitely gay if you have it (so people can stop with that strawman). There’s evidence of non-genetic biological factors, such as hormone imbalances in the womb or other things like like that. And I don’t discount that environmental factors may contribute for some people. But anyway, whatever causes it, the truth is that in the vast majority of cases the orientation cannot be changed. “Reparative therapy” has been shown over and over to be ineffectual and most people retain same sex attraction even if they manage to remain celibate/abstinent. The fact is that most people with same sex attraction will probably always have them. And it’s okay. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being gay or bi, the morality of actions non-withstanding, you’re not wrong, messed-up, evil, or unnatural for being attracted to the same gender. This kind of reminds me of the people who weirdly accuse me of only being bisexual because I was sexually abused. Okay… even if that’s true (and there is no real way to find out if that’s the cause anyway, you can’t really have a control Jack who was never abused to see if I turn out straight if I had a good childhood), how would that make it okay to treat me badly or call me names or shun me? Wouldn’t it even make it worse to treat me badly, because obviously I had no control over being sexually abused?
“” Many (not all) have a history of problematic relationships and show signs of psychological trauma. Many are homeless because they have abusive relationships and rejection they are running from and may see sex as a way to seek the close friendships that they so desperately want in their life.”
Do you not realize that a lot of this comes from the way people treat those with same sex attractions? Psychological trauma, do you think that people can be traumatized from being called a fag or dyke constantly, from being ostracized from their families and peer group, from being called perverted, unnatural, indecent, degenerate, etc, by people who are most supposed to love them? How about being sexually harassed/assaulted, or beaten for being gay or bi? What about feeling, every single day since you figured out you weren’t straight, that you’re damaged and unlovable and disgusting in God’s eyes, because apparently the only moral way to be is heterosexual and anything else is “unnatural”? Do you think that causes psychological trauma?
And about the homeless LGBT people… I know y’all hate it when I talk about it but the majority of LGBT youths I knew when I was homeless (and remember LGBT youths make up a hugely disproportionate amount of the homeless youth population) were kicked out of their house by religious parents, or were driven out by their parents/family/peers abusing them for their orientation. I was a bit of a rare case because my orientation wasn’t the cause of my homelessness, my mother certainly was abusive because of that but she was abusive since I was a baby and that was just another thing she hated me for, and my father’s abuse had nothing to do with my orientation. Most of the LGBT kids on the street weren’t like me, they were abused/targeted/abandoned specifically because they weren’t straight, and their religious parents couldn’t handle the disappointment of a gay kid, and couldn’t love their gay kid so they kicked their teen out on the street. I know it’s not pleasant or comfortable for Christians to hear that this happens, that Christians do these things, but some Christians do. It’s not the LGBT youths fault, it’s the fault of the people who use Christianity to harm them. I believe that it breaks Jesus’s heart that these kids are treated like that in his name. If Jesus is who it says he is in the Bible, then these people are committing grave sins by treating these kids like that.
And about desperately seeking close friendships, have you tried to have close friendships (non-sexual) with straight guys as a same sex attracted male? It’s not exactly easy, especially in a conservative area. A lot of heterosexual men get violent or mean towards those attracted to other men, so it’s hard to get close to other people knowing that some of them, when they find out what you are, might hurt you. And that’s just physical violence, many straight people wouldn’t hurt someone for not being straight, but a whole lot of them will ostracize you. People wonder why LGBT people gravitate towards each other, why they make “gayberhoods” and such, well, other LGBT people are sometimes the only people you feel comfortable with and feel safe enough to be close to. Thankfully that seems to be a lot better than it used to, LGBT people are slowly becoming more accepted with no help from certain segments of society.
So anyway, you might think that LGBT people are just screw-ups and are damaged and they need to do better, but it’s really not an easy thing to be. Being maligned and dehumanized and marginalized all the time tends to cause a lot of problems for the group that is being treated that way.
You’re right Doug, there are no positive reasons to be negative about same-sex attracted people. It’s that straight forward.
I hate how people try so hard to make it that homo/bisexuality isn’t genetically/biologically caused in many cases, despite all evidence. And even if it were possible to just randomly choose to be attracted to the same sex, I don’t see how that changes anything. You know what’s indisputably a choice? Belonging to a religion, be it Christianity or something else. Is it okay to harass or degrade Christians because they choose to belong to their religion? Of course not. It’s not different for sexual behavior, even if people choose to be in a homosexual relationship there’s no call for treating people poorly.
And I wonder who in the world thinks that anyone would choose to be attracted to the same gender, especially when things were much worse for LGBT people in this country. Why would you choose to have a good portion of the world hate you? I’ve always considered myself comparatively lucky to be bi (though bisexuals cop crap from both side, for some reason bi guys are accused of being gay guys afraid to fully come out, and bi women are accused of doing it for male attention, and all bi people are accused of being slutty or greedy), I can just date a woman and no one can really know the difference unless they make assumptions or I tell them. Exclusively homosexual people have it rough, can’t really hide it unless they go celibate.
There is nothing a man can do for another man that a woman couldn’t do. It is a choice about who you want to be close to. And in nature according to the way God and evolution intended it to be homosexuality is not normal or natural. Any negative connotations just emanate from the truth.
It is positive for people to NOT call a guy Sally and call him a her just cause he feels and dresses like a woman. It is just as positive for a person to understand that nature designed sex for heterosexual couples. All the PC drivel in the world cannot change the truth.
There is nothing a man can do for another man that a woman couldn’t do. – you’re not off to a good start.
It is a choice about who you want to be close to. – no it is not always a choice. Why do you persist with untruths.
And in nature according to the way God and evolution intended it to be homosexuality is not normal or natural. – you’re talking about two different things. Nature says its natural and apparently god says it isn’t. It’s evolution or god, not ‘and’.
Any negative connotations just emanate from the truth. – that is untrue. They emanate from ignorance and bigotry.
It is positive for people to NOT call a guy Sally and call him a her just cause he feels and dresses like a woman. – no, it isn’t.
It is just as positive for a person to understand that nature designed sex for heterosexual couples. – that’s not positive, it’s incorrect.
All the PC drivel in the world cannot change the truth. – wrong. All the bigoted, homophobic and ignorant drivel in the world cannot change the truth.
“There is nothing a man can do for another man that a woman couldn’t do. It is a choice about who you want to be close to” This only applies to bisexuals. I can choose to date women, never date men, and be just fine with that because I’m attracted to both men and women. Fine by me. For exclusively homosexual people, whether they are male or female, this means nothing. You cannot force yourself to be attracted to someone you are not. Imagine if it was wrong or immoral to engage in heterosexual behavior, could you force yourself to be attracted to some sweaty hairy dude? Of course you couldn’t, because you’re straight and no matter how wrong heterosexual behavior was, you could never find men attractive like you find women attractive. You could choose to be celibate/abstinent, but you could never enjoy men sexually the way you enjoy women. That’s just truthful. Same for homosexual guys and gals, they cannot make themselves find the opposite gender sexually attractive. You do not have to agree that homosexual behavior is moral to understand this. “And in nature according to the way God and evolution intended it to be homosexuality is not normal or natural. Any negative connotations just emanate from the truth.” No, nature apparently allowed animals to sometimes engage in homosexual behavior. Some species, like I said, even have pair-bonding between animals of the same gender. It’s endemic in nature all over the place. For whatever reasons, crossed wires or hormone imbalances or even a population evolutionary advantage (there are some good theories about the evolutionary advantage of homosexuality), homosexuality happens in nature. It’s clearly natural. And anyway we’re talking about people. People are not unnatural or abnormal. It’s okay to be me, bisexuality and all. It’s okay for Anderson Cooper to be him, homosexuality and all. There’s nothing inherently wrong or flawed or bad about the orientation. Now, behavior is another story in regards to immorality from a religious perspective. No one is required to follow through on their attractions, and if God considers homosexual behavior immoral that’s one thing. If that’s what you believe that’s fine. But if you believe in God, and if God created everyone, he created me too, and he made me the way I am. You can’t look at me and tell me I’m unnatural without saying God made a mistake. I refuse to accept that. I can accept that homosexual behavior is immoral but I see no way to accept that there is something inherently wrong with the orientation without hating myself and other LGBT people. “It is positive for people to NOT call a guy Sally and call him a her just cause he feels and dresses like a woman. It is just as positive for a person to understand that nature designed sex for heterosexual couples. All the PC drivel in the world cannot change the truth. ” There’s a lot of biological evidence that the brains of trans people reflect the gender they feel they are, not the gender their genitals and DNA say they are. I don’t really care to call someone “he” if she prefers to be called “she”. It’s really not my business, and I don’t think that people should go out of their way to hurt someone because they have a condition that science doesn’t understand fully yet. It’s not positive, and it will never be positive, to refer to other people as “unnatural” or condemn them and treat them badly because of your religious beliefs. How is that positive? And from a religious perspective, how is making people feel bad for what they are, that they can’t change, Godly or help them live a moral life? Depressed and unhappy people tend to do more immoral things to help themselves feel better, so I think this stuff contributes to promiscuity, drugs abuse, alcohol abuse, etc in the LGBT community.
My comment to you is stuck in moderation for some reason, truth. In a nutshell I wrote that your “men can’t do anything that women can’t for you” thing only applies to bisexuals. I am attracted to both, it’s easy enough for me to choose to only date women. Exclusively gay men and women can’t choose to be attracted to the opposite sex though. They can be celibate, but they cannot choose to be sexually attracted to the gender that they aren’t, no more than you can choose to be attracted to men.
And homosexuality is clearly present in nature. There’s nothing unnatural about not being straight. I’m not an unnatural person, my sexual orientation is just as natural to me as your’s is to you. Now, it may be immoral for me to act out attractions I have to men, but it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with what I am. I’ve thought of myself as disgusting and wrong for my entire life, no more of that. It’s okay to be me. And it’s okay for other LGBT people to be them. It really is. You don’t have to agree with homosexual behavior to agree that it’s okay for people to just be.
Truthseeker can you please, please just try to think about the damage calling people “unnatural” and stuff like that does? Can you please do me a solid and just try to put yourself in LGBT people’s shoes?Imagine knowing that a good portion of the world hates you, some of them would gladly kill you, and many more that don’t hate you still think you’re unnatural and perverse for something you cannot help. Imagine your own mother calling you slurs and beating you for not being straight and saying you caused your own abuse from your father, and being repeatedly raped your entire childhood and when you finally get the courage to tell at fifteen, you get blamed, because you’re not straight so you obviously caused it and you obviously wanted it. That happened to me. Or like what happened to one of my trans friends I met when I was homeless, who was raped and beaten very badly because she was a “chick with a d**k”, by people who didn’t even know anything about her, they just knew that she was biologically male and was wearing a dress and makeup. Or another friend of mine, who was kicked out when he was only fourteen for having a boyfriend, by his Christian parents. Or like any of those gay or bi boys who kill themselves after being bullied and called all kinds of disgusting names for months and months before they give up. Or just having to hear what everyone thinks of people like you, everywhere you go, all the time. Unnatural, degenerate, perverted, pedophile/rapist, selfish, disgusting, etc etc etc. It’s getting better but I don’t understand why you have so little sympathy or why you’re unwilling to temper your language so you aren’t being hurtful. I’m not unnatural or abnormal, I’m just me and should be treated like anyone else. All LGBT people are no worse sinners than you are, are no more unnatural than you are, and don’t deserve to be constantly degraded. And this language that you choose to use, I firmly believe it contributes to the violence and abuse towards the LGBT community. Dehumanizing people makes it easier for those prone to violence to hurt them. And referring to people as unnatural or abnormal is dehumanizing language. You don’t have to agree with homosexual behavior, you don’t have to think it’s more, to understand that LGBT people are no worse than you are and deserve respect.
Political correctness is an amazingly strong force, able to misdirect, mistake, and ignore. I’m no scientist, but I can’t help but notice a strong anecdotal similarity among my gay male friends: admissions of sexual predation by older male family members, including sometimes fathers. I also can’t help but ask: how often is sexual orientation influenced by this childhood trauma? I also can’t help but notice that hypocrisy is alive and well among both gay and straight and bi human beings, and that is quite possible that some teens are made unwelcome in the very homes where they’d been victimized by the family member. Victims of sexual abuse should not blame themselves, because they were not able to consent, no matter what an abuser says or does or rationalizes. But, while you should absolutely hold responsible an organization that takes years to properly address abuse and make children safer.. you should also not sugarcoat or deny the sexual predation of some gay men toward innocent victims, who are sometimes adolescents.
Sugar and vinegar all in one paragraph. Well constructed!
I do respect you for who you are. That doesn’t mean I am going to lie about it.
LOL
It isn’t showing them disrespect to correct them. In fact the only way to show really respect one another is to be honest.
The problem is that you’re not correcting anyone.
And if you believe you are being honest then that’s sad.
You wouldn’t be getting my respect by my agreeing that homosexuality is normal or natural when I see it as being abnormal and unnatural. There are a lot of other factors that make me respect a person or not. You point many of them out in your rants. For example being pro-life or anti-pedolphilia or even something as simple as being trustworthy are all more important elements of gaining respect etc. etc. etc.
Reality, what is sad is that instead of being an honest person you would go through life calling a man Sally and referring to him as her just cause he dressed and felt like a woman.
“I also can’t help but ask: how often is sexual orientation influenced by this childhood trauma? ”
And like I said, why does where it come from matter? Sexual abuse is always bad, whether or not it turns good boys into one of us evil gay or bi men. Sexual abuse should be fought against and stopped, regardless of the consequences. You know it really makes me feel bad when people say this stuff, I can’t help feeling like people think I’ve done something wrong by getting abused and turning out bi. There really wasn’t anything I could have done about either. And like I said before, even if I’m bisexual because of the rapes and abuses I’ve suffered, there’s nothing I can do about it. What’s done is done, we can’t change the past, and I don’t deserve to be treated poorly because of it. Why do y’all use the “homosexuality comes from sexual abuse!” thing as a trump card? It changes nothing. The attractions don’t go away regardless of where they come from. There’s much evidence that trying to change sexual orientation rarely works and can cause a lot of mental damage to the people subjected to such attempts. It is much better to accept such people and try to help them lead a healthy and moral life.
“ I also can’t help but notice that hypocrisy is alive and well among both gay and straight and bi human beings, and that is quite possible that some teens are made unwelcome in the very homes where they’d been victimized by the family member. Victims of sexual abuse should not blame themselves, because they were not able to consent, no matter what an abuser says or does or rationalizes. But, while you should absolutely hold responsible an organization that takes years to properly address abuse and make children safer.. you should also not sugarcoat or deny the sexual predation of some gay men toward innocent victims, who are sometimes adolescents.”
First off, no one denies there are some gay men who are rapists. There are some straight men who are rapists too. There are even some straight and gay women who are rapists. The percentage of sexual predators are similar regardless of orientation, which is what most research has shown. There are no more homo/bisexual rapists as a percentage than there are heterosexual rapists as a percentage. Child abusers are a different matter, because many of them have NO sexual orientation towards adults, so cannot be compared to either homosexual or heterosexual men.
I don’t understand what you want or you’re trying to say. No one is denying that there are some gay abusers, and no one is saying they shouldn’t be stopped. But so what if I share an orientation with some rapists? So do you, and so does truthseeker and Reality. It doesn’t mean that heterosexuals or homo/bisexuals should be judged as a whole based on what some predators did. I have no idea what you are going on about. OBVIOUSLY I know there are abusers in some LGBT kid’s homes because there was one in MINE and I was blamed for his crimes. It doesn’t change the fact that my dad wasn’t a homosexual man, he was a rapist with a preference for males. He had no interest in consensual relationships with men or women, he can’t accurately be called a homosexual OR a heterosexual, what he liked to do was force boys of any age into sex and cause pain. There are many predators like him, some have preference for girls and some for boys. They are predators, and questions of sexual orientation are quite irrelevant to trying to stop such people. Honestly, I don’t know what you’re expecting LGBT people to say, I don’t understand what people want when they go down this road. All predators should be stopped regardless of orientation. But gay and bi people shouldn’t feel terrible for sharing an orientation with some of them, there’s nothing that can be done about that. I don’t like being equated to some of my abusers. It’s not fair to me. I, of all people, understand anyone can be an abuser of people of any gender or age, and all abusers should be stopped. I don’t understand what you want me to say.
There is a guy in England who only has sex with his dog and he could say that is natural too. So don’t even try and go there. For the human species of animal heterosexuality is natures complimentary design and admitting that would win you more respect than trying to debate that homosexuality is natural.
Your agreement is not required, you have every right to feel that it is as you feel it is. Espousing and proclaiming homosexuality as abnormal and unnnatural however, is factually incorrect and needs to be identified as such.
And for myself, being pro-choice or anti-pedolphilia or even something as simple as being trustworthy are all more important elements of gaining respect etc. etc. etc.
So are facts.
I have a number of gay friends. I have a number of gay customers as well. All of my gay friends appear to have had happy, healthy family environments. Better than some of my straight friends. The only suffering they recount is the opprobrium and/or abuse some endured in the schoolyard or the workplace.
Sexual predation by older male family members does not ‘bring the gay’.
Truthseeker you don’t respect me at all. You might feel a certain fondness for me, maybe, or something like that, but you have little to no respect for me. From things you’ve directly told me, you think I’m untrustworthy especially around kids because I live a “closeted life” because I don’t need people treating me poorly for being bisexual (I still don’t see how it’s anyone’s business). But even if I were out and about with my sexual orientation in real life, you’d still see me as wrong. You think I’m abnormal and unnatural because of something that intrinsic to me and can’t be changed. You don’t respect me because I’ve explained multiple times why the language you choose to use about homosexuality is hurtful, and that you don’t need to use that language to oppose homosexual behavior, but you use that language continuously, over and over telling me that what I am is wrong. I am not sure what you expect me to do about it, because it’s not something I chose or can do anything about, but what I do know is you don’t respect me. I’ve had people lie and call things “love” and “respect” when they are quite clearly not my entire life, it confuses me and sometimes I fall for it but no more. I like you just fine, I even love you as a fellow pro-lifer and a decent man and Christian, but you don’t respect or love me. You might have some fondness for me or maybe even like me a lot. But I’m no longer going to accept people claiming respect or love or anything like that when it’s not true. You cannot respect someone if you think they are unnatural and abnormal simply for being them.
I have a lot of happy (gay) friends and customers too Reality. Some are straight and some are homosexual.
Bestiality and homos/bisexuality have nothing in common. Bestiality is considered a paraphilia in psychology, I believe. Paraphilias are specific things, it doesn’t apply to sexual orientation. Same thing with fetishes, they aren’t comparable to orientation either. They are different things and conflating them is wrong. And rude. I’m not and other LGBT people are not equivalent or comparable to someone who has sex with dogs.
Yes, very respectful. I feel super respected lol.
With that I bid you all a very honest and respectful good night :)
There is a guy in England who only has sex with his dog and he could say that is natural too. So don’t even try and go there. – is it consensual? Is the dog male or female? Could it possibly reproduce if the relationship was heterosexual? That’s not one human with another. Or one dog with another. Now you’re just getting desperate.
Heterosexual is natures complimentary design and admitting that would win you more respect than trying to debate that homosexuality is natural – I am not in the habit of admitting to that which is fundamentally incorrect. That would be dishonest.
You like to play the victim card.
1) Why would I (or you for that matter) trust anybody having your children over to their house unsupervised if they were not even honest with you about who they were. That seems irresponsible.
2) I said over and over that there are things about people that are a lot more important than how they choose to live their sex lives but you can’t get it through your mind that anybody could respect you unless they agree that your homosexuality is normal.
Ecce Crucem Domini
Fugite Partes Adversae
Vicit Leo de Tribu Judah
Radix David. Alleluia Alleluia
Being same-sex attracted is just as natural as being opposite-sex attracted, it’s just less common. Just like having red hair or being left-handed.
Jack,
Your super-paragraph comment at 12:52 eastern has been “unmoderated”.
I guess some bot wanted you to take a breath. :)
I’m not playing a “victim card” at all, I’m not even particularly upset (well, I’m rather upset at ninek’s comment because I don’t understand what I’m expected to do about sexual abuse besides the work I already do with street kids and the rape crisis hotline online, and the other stuff I do, and I don’t understand why she’s blaming me). But I’m not upset or feeling “victimized” by you. I am just being truthful. You cannot respect someone you see as unnatural or abnormal as a human being.
“1) Why would I (or you for that matter) trust anybody having your children over to their house unsupervised if they were not even honest with you about who they were. That seems irresponsible.”
Well, I don’t let anyone I don’t know extremely well watch my children, especially not men in general (I don’t judge that based on orientation though, gay, straight or bi, men are more likely to be abusers and I’m quite paranoid about my children). But I don’t understand why you think that LGBT people have to tell everyone about their orientation, especially if people dislike it and think so poorly of them. I’m not dangerous because I stay firmly in the closet, I’m more scared than anything. And I don’t see how it’s anyone’s business. If you had something that people tend to misunderstand and judge you for and, I don’t know, thought it made you more likely to be a pedophile, I doubt you’d be loud and proud with it either. Especially not at church, since apparently I can’t win even if I refrain from any sexual activity with males, LGBT people are still unnatural and abnormal.
“2) I said over and over that there are things about people that are a lot more important than how they choose to live their sex lives but you can’t get it through your mind that anybody could respect you unless they agree that your homosexuality is normal.”
Sexual orientation is a pretty intrinsic part of a person and affects how you view the world in some ways. For instance, I assume you never get crushes on your male friends, haha. It’s not an insignificant part of a person, and there’s also nothing intrinsically wrong with the orientation not being heterosexual. It’s pretty silly to think you can tell someone that the way they are made is unnatural and abnormal and then tell them you respect them. It’s like punching your husband in the face and then telling him you love him, lol. But anyway, like I said, I’m not upset and I don’t really judge you for it. You’re pretty typical for a straight person in your age bracket. But you don’t respect me, and you don’t love me as a brother in Christ, and I won’t believe those things of anyone who tells me that the way I’m made is wrong. Don’t worry, I don’t think any differently of you or dislike you at all. I’m just refusing to accept people lying to me or trying to trick me anymore.
“But considering that only 4% of priests were found to be abusers in the first place, if you assume no overlap in victim ages then only 27% of 4% of priests could be considered gay men who went after post-pubescent teenagers.”
These numbers are too much either way you look at it Jack. Your conclusion that perhaps 27% of the 4% of priests may be gay men abusers is a significant number and could well overcome statistical error issues.
“For instance, I assume you never get crushes on your male friends, haha”
Deluded Lib,I don’t get crushes on anyone any more. That whole perspective seems kind-of adolescent to me. I am happily in a monogamous relationship that I am faithful to.
Oh my goodness truthseeker, I’m quite a bit younger than you and I’m single. I think now you’re just trying to disagree with everything I saw and make me feel bad or something.
Thomas, most sociologists put the amount of gay clergy at anywhere from ten to sixty percent. Of we take a conservative estimate of 30% of priests being gay, then that 27% of 4% of priest (assuming that everyone who molested and older teenage boy was actually gay and not fixated on adolescents like many abusers are), then there isn’t an unusual amount of sexual predators who are gay, not more than straight men being predators.
But anyway, truthseeker, you shouldn’t try to convince me that it’s bad to be me. If you could convince me that I’m unnatural and abnormal, I don’t know what the point would be. I can’t change it so all I could do is continue to hate myself for it and that’s not healthy. I think that I’ve had a rough life and it’s high time I like myself and people stop criticizing me for things that I can’t change, myself included. Same for any LGBT person, I don’t think any of them should have to feel like they are made wrong, and I don’t think God makes people wrong anyway. He intended some people to be LGBT for whatever reason, we shouldn’t criticize that and make people feel bad about the way they were made.
At the risk of repeating myself I told you directly that it ok to be you or even to be friends. That doesn’t mean I have to agree everything about you is ok. In fact, friends are not afraid to be honest with friends when they think they are acting in ways that hurt themselves. I believe I understand you and that you have probably been ostracized by so many people that you can’t stand to have anybody tell you that you don’t have a right to be yourself. Well I am telling you that I don’t have to accept homosexuality as being normal or natural in order to in order to accept your right to your own feelings and I do not have to agree that your feelings are right.
God makes people who feel rage too. That doesn’t mean you have to accept people being angry all the time as normal.
And LGBT or Hetero you seem to be somewhat adolescent in your sexual maturity. Just cause someone is single doesn’t mean they have to have multiple partners etc. Is that the example you want to set for your kids?
Hey Jack. Yeah I know what you’re saying. The thing is, God says that He will renew our minds – but that goes for everybody. So I think what Christians struggle with is that we’re all the same boat – sinners in need of redemption – but we are all being transformed at a different pace and we all have different crosses to bear.
I’ve been trying hard not to judge people for how they are. Because like you said, God made them. God made everyone. Not everyone is perfect, it’s true. But who am I, with all my mess and brokenness, to judge other people’s different messes?
Exactly one living person knows why I’m secretly messed up (and that I *am* so messed up at all) and one other one suspects it. And do you want to know what? We all have pains and hurts and sins and brokennness. But apparently some people can tolerate and understand certain sins easier than others. Which I get. I think most people don’t understand sexual orientation and they take umbrage at what they see as an agenda.
But like I said before, I’m pretty darn empathetic (God made me that way). And I’m usually criticized for being too sensitive and permissive and overprotective, etc. So…
My brain stopped. I don’t know where I was going with that. Sorry. Haha. Maybe I was saying… you’re not alone? I feel your pain.
“I believe I understand you and that you have probably been ostracized by so many people that you can’t stand to have anybody tell you that you don’t have a right to be yourself. Well I am telling you that I don’t have to accept homosexuality as being normal or natural in order to in order to accept your right to your own feelings and I do not have to agree that your feelings are right.”
I’m not talking about actions, actions or willful thoughts (like allowing yourself to feel lustful) can be wrong. But it’s not wrong to just be bisexual or whatever, if it’s unwilled. How can it be unnatural to just exist? People have been telling me this for years and I still don’t understand what they expect me to do about? Self-hatred is about all that can come from condemning someone for their sexual orientation absent any behaviors.
“God makes people who feel rage too. That doesn’t mean you have to accept people being angry all the time as normal.”
If they allow themselves to be angry all the time or treat people badly because of their inclination to rage, then they are wrong. But their inclination doesn’t make them bad or abnormal, it’s just an inclination. You can control your behavior but you can’t control the way you are. I know you wouldn’t judge someone who naturally has a bad temper but manages to control it, you wouldn’t call that person unnatural or say they were abnormal or wrong for having those inclinations. I don’t know why LGBT people are held to different standards.
“And LGBT or Hetero you seem to be somewhat adolescent in your sexual maturity. Just cause someone is single doesn’t mean they have to have multiple partners etc. Is that the example you want to set for your kids? ”
Well first off if I were being promiscuous I would never bring any of my sex partners of any gender around my children, that’s really poor parenting and I attempt to be the best parent I can be. But I’m not being promiscuous, I told you before that I have little ability to tell people “no” so I am basically avoiding human contact until I can fix that about me. I’ve been with one person since my divorce and I consider that a huge mistake, and not one I’m going to make again. And I don’t think I’m adolescent about sexuality, though I never ha the chance to develop normally since people wouldn’t ever leave me alone when I was young so I could develop a good and healthy attitude towards sex, I think I’m doing okay at fixing that. I don’t have multiple partners and I’m attempting to refrain from any sexual relationships or dating until I can have a healthy relationship and actually find sex enjoyable instead of stressful. So there (now that was adolescent! Lol).
“Hey Jack. Yeah I know what you’re saying. The thing is, God says that He will renew our minds – but that goes for everybody. So I think what Christians struggle with is that we’re all the same boat – sinners in need of redemption – but we are all being transformed at a different pace and we all have different crosses to bear.”
Yeah, but I don’t see anything that says that God will make you straight, or have no inclination to anger, or never have a tendency to covet, etc. everyone will alway have the tendencies to do wrong on this earth, it’s part of the human condition yes? So I don’t see why people keep telling me it’s wrong to be me. I don’t think God ever promised to make all LGBT people straight, most of us will always have same sex attractions. And don’t think being wired that way is sinful in itself. I just don’t understand why people agree that having the tendency to be attracted to women you’re not married to is okay as long as you don’t act on it or allow yourself to be lustful, it’s just how people are wired and they have to manage their actions even if they can do anything about their inclinations. So I don’t understand why it’s wrong to be wired like I am even if I manage my actions so they are correct.
I think it’s good that you’re so empathetic even though I know it’s painful to feel so much for other people. I think it gives you a caring heart and you treat people better because you feel their hurts so deeply. And you know I’d never judge you for why you’re messed up, I am sure I am much worse lol. :) you can always get my email from Carla if you need someone to talk to.
Thanks, I appreciate it! I really do it means a lot.
But yes, I was agreeing with you about the whole nature thing actually. We’re all in the same boat. It annoys me that Christians are quick to dismiss hetero guys’ inclinations like “Oh you know men. they’re gonna look. But hey as long as he’s not luting it’s totes cool. Just be sure to have sex with him at least every 72 hours or he might start lusting and it’ll be on your head missy.” (Actual advice from a blog!)
And anyway truthseeker, even if you’re right and I’m unnatural and abnormal and everything don’t you think I’ve had enough punishment for it? Like maybe people should stop telling me that and treating me badly for it, people started punishing me for existing since I was literally a baby. I don’t understand why more condemnation would be necessary or productive, or why it would be bad to view myself as okay. I think I’ve paid for being me over and over and it needs to stop for a while so I can not feel terrible all the time. I don’t get it, I don’t think most people have to pay for their faults like this forever. And I think most LGBT people have already heard how unnatural and terrible their inclinations are and just don’t need to be condemned more, it just doesn’t help. And I don’t understand the point.
I am curious, according to your way of thinking can you give me a couple examples of things are ‘unnatural’?
I don’t really know what you mean? I think plastic is unnatural, as well as synthetic cloth.
Why are they unnatural? What is it about them that makes them unnatural? Is it because they are processed into being?
How can sexuality be considered natural then? Human’s aren’t born with knowledge of sexuality.
I don’t think its natural for “manly” men to take showers. The primate in me wants a shower :)
I meant its not natural for “manly ” men to take baths, LOL…
They don’t exist in nature, truthseeker.
Sexuality is natural because it exists in nature. Humans are born with genetic coding to become sexual at puberty.
I’ll tell you something that is natural. We are created male and female. And historically we are defined by our gender. One obvious and difference between human genders is our complimentary physiology. The primary evolutionary purpose of these differences in nature is the survival of the species and the generation of life itself. If you disagree with what is written above then tell me why? If you don’t, then you can see why homosexuality is unnatural and would lead to nature killing itself off. I seriously can’t believe anybody would even argue this point.
Truthseeker…. yes, humans *are* born with knowledge of sexuality.
Truthseeker I’m tired of defending myself. I really just wanted things to be okay. You win, I’m unnatural and abnormal and it’s wrong to view myself as a natural and normal person, I get it, I’m exhausted.
I don’t think its natural for “manly” men to take showers. The primate in me wants a shower - well that’s odd since, part from the odd waterfall, bathing in a stream or pool of water was the general method until more recent times. And a lot of primates don’t generally do either.
I don’t think there was sex-ed or anything 100,000 years ago truthseeker, people just did what came naturally, like every other species :-)
Roger that Deluded Lib.
I’m sorry.
I’ll tell you something that is natural. We are created male and female. – yes, and some are same-sex attracted and some are opposite-sex attracted. This happens in many species.
And historically we are defined by our gender. – so now it’s ‘history’ rather than ‘nature’.
One obvious and difference between human genders is our complimentary physiology. – as well as our individual variability.
The primary evolutionary purpose of these differences in nature is the survival of the species and the generation of life itself. – not in every case.
homosexuality is unnatural and would lead to nature killing itself off. – wrong. Same-sex attraction in any species is not a common denominator. The rate doesn’t significantly increase or decrease from one generation to the next. Same-sex attracted folk who do become parents don’t automatically have same-sex attracted children. It’s not hereditary.
I seriously can’t believe anybody would even argue this point. – and I can’t believe you keep ignoring the overwhelming weight of evidence.
Let’s face it truthseeker, you are anti-gay. That is your right, your choice. But to repeatedly deny the evidence and denigrate others, well…..
For crying out loud Jack!
“I’m so sorry my head hurt your fist as you were repeatedly punching me.”
:-(
I’m exhausted. I just wanted things to be okay.
Acceding to homophobia or bigotry isn’t going to make anything ‘okay’ Jack. For anyone.
I’m so tired. This is what it’s like everywhere. I think maybe they are just right and it’s wrong to be.
You know that isn’t true.
You know the facts, the science.
You know what lies behind their vitriol.
It’s not dissimilar to the racist bigots who try to claim that some races are inherently less intelligent than others. Or those who claim that some tasks just aren’t meant for women.
I’m very tired of having to plead and argue all the time. It’s draining. And my thoughts end up all confused. I just want things to be safe and okay.
Following the conversation about sexuality on this thread shows why safe and okay is a struggle to achieve.
I’m tired of struggling.
Your sexuality is perfectly natural and inherent. Yet you are prepared to accede that it is ‘unnatural’ and ‘wrong’ due to a relentless personal attack.
Given your position on abortion is not a natural and inherent thing I should only need to mount a half-hearted relentless personal attack and you will change your stance, yes?
No, much meaner pro-choicers than you have tried to shake me from from being pro-life and it’s never worked, lol. Babies need protection, I’ll never stop trying to protect them even if I’m the last person on earth who does. I think defending myself about sexual orientation is different.
Your sexuality is objective.
Your position on abortion is subjective.
Yet you relent on the objective rather than the subjective?
Idk what it is. I think I just have terrible self-image so it’s easy to believe terrible things about me. I’ve tried but I can’t seem to just be okay with me.
There’s nothing terrible about babies so I can’t ever relent on protecting them.
I think you’ve been so exposed to the ignorance, hatred and bigotry of others that your self-image has been damaged.
I am just thinking if so many people think something about me than maybe I’m the crazy one for fighting against it. I’m so tired of arguing. I just don’t understand what they expect me to do. Even if I’m completely wrong as a person I can’t fix it. It’s not something that can be fixed. So isn’t it kinder to just let me think I’m normal and okay? I don’t understand but I’m worn out.
Check the environment you’ve put yourself in. What do you expect.
There’s a reason black people don’t go to KKK meetings.
So isn’t it kinder to just let me think I’m normal and okay? – and someone will say “but really, it’s kinder to show you the error of your ways and help and guide you to the ‘right’ place (their version of what the world and the people in it should be). How can it be kind to allow you to persist in your evil behavior and miss out on what awaits you?”
You know how this works.
It’s the same wherever I go. That’s how my family was, that’s how normal people when I was a street kid were, that’s how people are. I just don’t wanna anymore.
If it was behavior I would get it. But I don’t understand how I can change something unchangeable. I’m not even doing anything and I’m still wrong. I think I’ll just have to ignore comments like the one that started this thread because I am just exhausted. But then I feel guilty because I imagine some 14 year old boy who isn’t straight reading the thread, and seeing that stuff, and seeing no one disagree with it, and so I have to say something. And the whole thing starts over again.
Not everyone is like that Jack.
Keep the thought of that 14 year old in mind.
The anti-gay position is untenable and will abate.
Oh, Jack.
:( I know how it’s hard to keep struggling! It probably doesn’t help, at all, because I’m an insignificant little twit (ack see? I’m invariably hard on myself too). But I don’t think you’re wrong to be. I don’t really know cause I’m not bi but I can see where you’re coming from and I just …. I don’t know. The Christ I see doesn’t call us to come to cross nice and pretty and changed. He calls us to come broken as we are. *that’s* my hope. That’s the gospel, Jack. We don’t have to change who are – He meets us wherever we are. He’s met me in my darkest of places and all I know is that He died for you like He died for me and He didn’t just die to give us a place in Heaven when we die but also *peace* here – now. Sometimes it just slips through my fingers but it’s there.
I’m telling you, the Father’s heart is *for* you. All of you! Every single part. He sees and he knows and He loves. He can love people who have committed abortions – a concsious act – how on earth don’t you think He can love you?
(I mean, other than people erroneously trying to change you).
But He does love you. He did make you. I don’t understand how it works, I really don’t. But I think that people who are inclined a certain way, if they’re not sinning, just are. It doesn’t change the fact that you’re a human made in the image of the Creator God who is mad about you, madly in love with His creation – YOU. You’re not inherently less – you’re equally made in God’s image.
Cling to that, if you cling to nothing else. I hope you still give Christianity a try. I wish I could take you to my church. I’ve been to many places and that place is probably the most accepting, beautiful place.
I don’t know. I need a break from this. I need like a “You don’t suck because you’re bi” support group or something, but I don’t really get welcomed in the LGBT community much because I don’t want to act on my sexuality. It’s like being between a rock and a hard place. No man’s land. I think I’m very depressed.
Jack, almost all pro-lifers and pro-choicers end up liking you, so I think you’re doing well.
And – it’s okay to be tired, even *really* tired, at times.
“But He does love you. He did make you. I don’t understand how it works, I really don’t. But I think that people who are inclined a certain way, if they’re not sinning, just are. It doesn’t change the fact that you’re a human made in the image of the Creator God who is mad about you, madly in love with His creation – YOU. You’re not inherently less – you’re equally made in God’s image. ”
See I don’t think God can love some of me at least. If he thinks homosexual actions are evil enough to deserve stoning at one point, and hell at another, I just don’t understand how he can love me if I’m inclined that way. I don’t get it.
I actually do get where the people who say it’s wrong and unnatural just to be are coming from in a religious way. It makes sense. If homosexual behavior is that bad, then the inclination to commit homosexual behavior can’t be that good either. But there’s simply nothing I can do about it. I’ve tried to pray it away. I tried drinking and drugging it away. My mother tried beating it away. It doesn’t work. That’s just what I am. I either have to accept it or continue to hate myself and I’m just exhausted and confused. I used to like myself at least a bit, I don’t know why I don’t at all anymore.
The issue of homosexuality is a bungled mess in the church today.
I’m not saying acting on homosexuality is not a sin. But for God’s sake can we all just stop with the ignorant, hateful, spiteful, wrong assumptions and accusations? Because I’ve seen it; I’ve heard it talked about in Christian circles – the gays are bad. Oh, how could that person be gay. He’s so nice – but he’s gay.
It’s not our place to change people. If God wants to, that’s totally up to Him. Yes, God can sometimes use us, but it is the power of the cross that saves. I’m a messy broken little human- absolute and total rubbish. Anything good about me isn’t me. Yeah, I’ve been saved by grace. So basically my job is to spread the message of the gospel. And yes, the gospel condemns sin. Yes, I’m supposed to stand against sin and oppression and other evil.
But even standing against sin is a story of hope. We ought not condemn people just because – going around obliterating people. If we want to change people, shouldn’t we tell them there’s a better way?
I am pretty darn sure that if Christ came today, He would be on the streets loving the homeless gay kids. I’m pretty sure He’d be in the projects and the abortion clinics seeking the lost and the broken hearted. He’d be everywhere we despise. Did He not say He came for the sick? To heal the hurting? He did say that.
He spoke one-on-one with a woman from a people that were despised by the Israelites – the Samaritans. A halfbreed. A nothing. And she had multiple men that she slept with – she was the definition of promiscuous. And He sat down at a well and gave her life and hope. Telling people who are gay and bi they’re unnatural and wrong the way they are is alienating and degrading and not giving life and hope. If you believe morally that that behavior is wrong, fine. But get those people to the cross with love and let God who made those people you’re tearing to bits deal with what He wants to deal with. Do you not think He can convict of sin? Because He can. And He will. In His own good time. Just like He convicts all of us of all our sin in time. It’s a process. And thank God! He is just but also merciful.
Are we not to give as we have been given?
“Jack, almost all pro-lifers and pro-choicers end up liking you, so I think you’re doing well.”
I don’t know where you are getting that, lol. It seems as though I mostly make people mad. The choicers do like me, that parts true at least. Probably because I try to catch flies with honey instead of vinegar. ;)
Despite your being anti-choice I like you Jack. Not because you use honey rather than vinegar. It’d be because we agree on more things than we disagree on. You are more cognisant of the realities of people and the world than some and realise that there is no reason to vilify people such as non-married couples and gays.
(actually that could be why you are capable of using honey rather than vinegar – food for thought)
If pre-marital sex is ‘bad’, and extra-marital sex is ‘bad’, what about post-marital sex?
We could get some T-shirts. I’d wear one.
Disrespecting elders was also cause for stoning, hon. So was adultery. People don’t act disgusted by disrespectful teens and lustful/cheating spouses as much as they do bis. God made men and women to want sex – and sex outside of marriage is a sin listed right next to homosexuality. And they’re both sins.
Doesn’t mean that because I’m attracted to men I’m sinning. If I act on it, yes. But if I’m attracted? No. I told you I don’t get it. I really don’t. It’s something I’ve struggled to understand. But I just don’t see how God would reject you because of how you are. You’re human, homefry. And that’s what matters.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, about you that He cannot make clean.
Reality post marital sex gets better and better. ;)
Ha sorry I couldn’t resist.
Well I just think vilifying anyone is wrong Reality. Even you pro-choicers. :P I just think that if you disagree with someone you should have a dialogue with them and talk to them as a person like you would want to be talked to. And I think some things that only affect consenting participants, wrong or right, aren’t really anyone’s business. I don’t understand getting so upset with people for bot being able to be straight or not getting married right away.
I think the thinking about post-marital sex is it’s only okay if you divorced for Biblical reasons, or were widowed. And even then you must be remarried before having sex again. I’ve already messed that one up. I always mess up when it comes to sex.
Eh. I’ve messed up sexually. There’s grace for everything.
Yeah I don’t get it LibertyBelle. I guess I don’t see the love from God that you do. I don’t remember ever hearing much about God’s love for sinners when I was a kid. And I’ve never felt it. I have tried to pray all the time and I just feel nothing, or I feel condemnation. Idk. I’m glad it makes you happy. I wish I could go either way, either be a content Christian or a content atheist. I just don’t want to be so miserable and doubtful all the time.
Oh honey. I’m not a content Christian all the time. I try so hard and I speak truth to you and hope it seeps into me too because sometimes it’s so hard to accept it.
Believe me when I say I could go into my issues. It’s loads of fun – lots of insecurities and mess. But you know what? That’s part of the beauty in it that it’s there.
I’m praying for you! I really am. And I’m asking God to just pursue you with all of his fierce incredible grace. I’ve tasted it a few times. And it’s amazing. I want that for you! I truly do. Do you mind if I pray for you?
(PS Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 1:8). No condemnation. None. I have to believe it cause it’s all I’ve got. All. I’ve. Got.
post marital sex gets better and better – well I can’t argue with you there!
I just think that if you disagree with someone you should have a dialogue with them – a bit difficult when they are coming from positions which are demonstrably false, ignorant of the facts and formed on false premises. Like anti-vaxxers, climate change denialists, geocentrists …republicans ;-)
I think the thinking about post-marital sex is it’s only okay if you divorced for Biblical reasons, or were widowed. And even then you must be remarried before having sex again. – so ‘bad’ in the eyes of some. Nothing meaningful.
I’ve already messed that one up. I always mess up when it comes to sex. – only if you accept what those you allude to above say.
Reality…… The earth *isn’t* the center of the universe?!
;)
It’s fine to pray for me LB, why would it bother me? :D I like the idea of people praying for others. Even if there’s no God and no one is listening, at the very least it means someone is thinking of and caring for someone.
“a bit difficult when they are coming from positions which are demonstrably false, ignorant of the facts and formed on false premises. Like anti-vaxxers, climate change denialists, geocentrists …republicans”
Well even when someone’s demonstrably wrong I like to have dialogues with them. How can someone change if you don’t talk to them respectfully and try and be friendly and give them the facts? That’s what I try to do at least. I don’t know if I’m doing something wrong but I think it’s better than just being snobby about it like people sometimes are. I like it when people talk and explain things to me rather than just yell at me, so that’s how I try and treat other people.
“only if you accept what those you allude to above say.”
Like the vast, vast majority of sex partners I’ve had, this person was a lot older than me. Like, twenty years older almost. I think it’s unhealthy for me to do things like that again. It’s never really on equal footing and mutual respect with that huge of an age difference. Which I thought I learned when I was a teenager but apparently forgot if I screwed up again. Besides the age difference there were other issues as well. Red flags and such. I just need to remain single until I am mentally healthier. Otherwise I’ll end up in an another abusive relationship.
But anyway Reality, that’s probably why my comments are so ridiculously long sometimes, I know it bugs people but I really try to be clear and and explain things thoroughly so people understand what I’m getting across. I know I hate it when I don’t understand something because it wasn’t explained thoroughly so if I’m trying to get an idea across I like to be as thorough as I can.
Some of the inhabitants think they are LibertyBelle.
How can someone change if you don’t talk to them respectfully and try and be friendly and give them the facts? – we can try but it doesn’t always work. Then it’s time to use different tactics ;-)
Nothing wrong with long comments when they aren’t diatribes of nonsense Jack. Yours aren’t, mostly.
Deluded Lib , I really never did try to condemn you or insult you as a person. I called homosexual unnantural. That doesn’t mean you are not a natural person or did I mean to deny that same sex is not a real part of who you are as a person at this time in your life. Hang in there. You’d be surprised how much we can learn and change as people as we go through life’s trials and tribulations. I really do like you and I consider we are friends as far as internet friendships can go. I join the prayers of LibertyBelle’s with mine and I offer this prayer for you and for your children. That is one of the beauties of Christianity. We are many different denominations but all one body in Christ. May God bless you and keep you.
Lord, I believe in you: increase my faith.
I trust in you: strengthen my trust.
I love you: let me love you more and more.
I am sorry for my sins: deepen my sorrow.
I worship you as my first beginning,
I long for you as my last end,
I praise you as my constant helper,
And call on you as my loving protector.
Guide me by your wisdom,
Correct me with your justice,
Comfort me with your mercy,
Protect me with your power.
I offer you, Lord, my thoughts: to be fixed on you;
My words: to have you for their theme;
My actions: to reflect my love for you;
My sufferings: to be endured for your greater glory.
I want to do what you ask of me:
In the way you ask,
For as long as you ask,
Because you ask it.
Lord, enlighten my understanding,
Strengthen my will,
Purify my heart,
and make me holy.
Help me to repent of my past sins
And to resist temptation in the future.
Help me to rise above my human weaknesses
And to grow stronger as a Christian.
Let me love you, my Lord and my God,
And see myself as I really am:
A pilgrim in this world,
A Christian called to respect and love
All whose lives I touch,
Those under my authority,
My friends and my enemies.
Help me to conquer anger with gentleness,
Greed by generosity,
Apathy by fervor.
Help me to forget myself
And reach out toward others.
Make me prudent in planning,
Courageous in taking risks.
Make me patient in suffering, unassuming in prosperity.
Keep me, Lord, attentive at prayer,
Temperate in food and drink,
Diligent in my work,
Firm in my good intentions.
Let my conscience be clear,
My conduct without fault,
My speech blameless,
My life well-ordered.
Put me on guard against my human weaknesses.
Let me cherish your love for me,
Keep your law,
And come at last to your salvation.
Teach me to realize that this world is passing,
That my true future is the happiness of heaven,
That life on earth is short,
And the life to come eternal.
Help me to prepare for death
With a proper fear of judgment,
But a greater trust in your goodness.
Lead me safely through death
To the endless joy of heaven.
Grant this through Christ our Lord. Amen
Thank you for the prayer truthseeker. I’m not mad at you, I’m just so exhausted and worn out defending myself. I don’t understand how I’m so unnatural and you’re confusing me. I just want this to end, either I want it to be okay to be me or I want it to end. I can’t make it go away, I’ve done everything I can think of since I was like 12 or so, and people have done all kinds of things to me to punish me for it and it hasn’t gone away. I just don’t understand what shaming and punishing me further is going to accomplish, I already feel bad so I don’t understand why it’s so wrong for me to hold onto one thing, like thinking it’s not unnatural to be like me. I’m not trying to say it’s okay to act on anything or engage in behaviors but I just want to think that it’s okay and normal and natural to be like me. Just one thing? I don’t think it’s too immoral to want to think that of me.
Deluded Lib, I really wasn’t trying to shame you or punish you. And I do admire your strength and courage in dialoguing about it. Let me pray on it.
You too. One way past this could be for you to judge yourself as a person on something other than your sexual attraction preference. If that were the topic of our conversation you might come away thinking you are a lot more moral and a lot more good than many.
On a side note; and I am not sure why I am recommending this but it just came to me to ask you to see if you can find a book about the incorruptibles. They are saints whose bodies never decomposed when they died. It is pretty miraculous stuff and can be interesting reading. The peace of Jesus Christ be with you.
And now I’m crying. I never cry. I am sorry. I shouldn’t drink. I definitely shouldn’t drink and post on this blog lol. Have a good night truthseeker I’m sorry.
They were wrong to place the blame on an adolescent. That is nuts.
Are you talking about people like Lenin and Dick Clair Jones truthseeker?