Stanek weekend question: What would you say to an abortionist?
On April 22, Brendan O’Morchoe of Students for Life of America wrote at LifeSiteNews.com about his experience of finding himself on the same plane as late-term abortionist LeRoy Carhart:
Last Saturday, I was boarding a flight coming home to Virginia from Omaha, Nebraska…. It is the moments like what happened on my flight Saturday night, confronted by evil, that keep me going.
When I sat down and looked across the aisle, I saw none other than notorious late-term abortionist LeRoy Carhart, on his way to kill late-term babies at his facility in Germantown, Maryland. I was face-to-face with a man who has killed thousands upon thousands of babies with his own hands, who is responsible for the deaths of at least two women and who has so callously defended his business. And I had no idea what to do.
What do you really say to someone like that? How can you reach him?
I wasn’t sitting close enough to have a conversation with him (the aisle and a woman I assumed to be his wife were between us, but we were in the same row) and felt he would shut me down right away anyway. I knew I couldn’t sit that close to a man who represented so much evil. My entire body was shaking uncontrollably.
So, I asked to be moved up a couple rows where I couldn’t see him, but he could still hear me and I prayed out loud for his conversion and an end to abortion for the next two hours. When we landed, I waited for him to walk past and called his name. He looked me right in the eye and I said, “LeRoy, we’re all praying for you.” He mumbled something incomprehensible and stalked off, but I knew I had got to him.
I have had two similar experiences of being thisclose to Carhart, once at a press conference and once in an airport. Neither time did I speak to him.
At the press conference I was more conflicted about the possibility of his somehow reaching out to shake my hand and thinking I couldn’t do it. WWJD? I had no idea what to say to him.
At the airport Carhart passed by me so quickly I didn’t have time to think. Replaying the event in my mind, I’ve always, perhaps oddly, thought the thing to do would have been to point my finger at him and yell, “LeRoy Carhart, late-term abortionist!” which almost seems funny when I type it. My viewpoint was no justice, no peace – nowhere.
I wrote on the blog about sitting next to then-Planned Parenthood of Illinois CEO Steve Trombley on a flight from Chicago to Dallas, where my attempts to converse fell flat.
A close friend of mine in the movement told me of recently fetching a cab at Washington Reagan Airport only to look up once inside to see Planned Parenthood CEO Cecile Richards also waiting for a cab five feet away.
The moment passed quickly for my friend as well. She has replayed it in her mind and wondered if she should have rolled down her window and said something to Richards. Richards would have recognized her. And then, my friend wonders, what should she have said?
(My friend’s takeaway was noting Richards hard at work texting on her iPhone even while waiting for her cab. My friend gained new resolve to never waste a moment either.)
So, what would you say to an abortionist if happening upon one? Or perhaps you’ve spoken to an abortionist? I know sidewalk counselors do all the time.
[HT: Secular Pro-Life via Susie Allen]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Honestly I think there is nothing I would say to an abortionist or PP honcho if I had the misfortune to come across one in my path. Any exchange would be a waste of time. These people only understand exposes of the various abuses and illegal practices and legal challenges to them – that is how they learn and process consequences.
I’d rather picket in front of their office or home. More immediate and larger scale in its effect….
I don’t think I’d say anything ‘at’ him/her – would be interested in opening a dialogue. I’m sure these folks have no shortage of people yelling at them – but as Jesus did the mentioned times where he sat and ate with sinners – much more can be accomplished through relationship.
These folks aren’t any different than anybody who has ever posted on this board – just different kinds of sins. Nobody is beyond redemption.
Baby Killer!!
First of all, to answer the poll question, I would much rather not shake their hand. As for the rest, I’m just going to copy and paste my comment from when this came up at Secular Pro-life’s blog.
“Personally, the first thing I would do is ask them if this is what they imagined they would be doing when they grew up. If they answered no, I would then go on to ask about at what point they decided to do this for a living, and more importantly why.”
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/04/what-would-you-say-to-abortionist.html#comment-1338842811
Ex-RINO,
You consider yourself to be no different then Carhart? I am different because I don’t kill babies for money. That is a pretty big difference in my eyes and in the eyes of our Creator.
We are all sinners. In need of a Saviour. In need of grace and mercy. Like the woman caught in adultery. Like the woman at the well. Like Paul.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I would pray however the Spirit led me to pray. I would look them in the eye. I would shake their hand and introduce myself and tell them, “I am praying for you.”
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
If you aren’t praying for them right now why not??
Truthseeker,
SHAME ON YOU!!
truth –
Correct. Biblically at least. Carla sums it up very well.
Great question. I’m really not sure how to answer it, though I think Ex-GOP is definitely on the right track.
While the pro-lifer who wrote the first linked article clearly meant well, I can’t help but question whether his approach was the most effective one. If I wanted to make an impact on someone (for any reason at all), I would tell or show them something they had never heard or seen before that would hopefully make them think about things in a brand new way. Surely Leroy Carhart, of all people, already knows that pro-lifers are praying for him. And praying out loud on an airplane does strike me as weird and unpersuasive.
Last year, I had a brief debate online with an ob-gyn that performs abortions. She seemed open to dialogue (at least at first) and I think it went pretty well, though I may have come across a bit too strong at the beginning. It ended when she refused to publish my last comment, which was disappointing. At any rate, the experience reminded me why I usually avoid blogs with moderated comments. So I think it can be done. The big question is then how pro-lifers can interact with an abortionist without appearing judgmental or aggressive, but without undermining the case that abortion is an unacceptable act of violence.
In Judaism, a person who is utterly corrupt is considered a “mezorah”–a disease on society–and shunned. That’s what I consider people like Carhart and Richards. It would be immoral for me to interact with them.
I’m not interested in the abortionists, as a prolifer. I’m interested in the women who seek their services. To me, being prolife isn’t about legislation or regulation, it’s about changing the hearts of men and women. If there is no demand for abortion, the supply becomes irrelevant–as do the suppliers.
I’d like to get a dialogue started with them, if I met them and had time for that. I wouldn’t be screaming “Repent!!” or “Baby killer!!”, I am sure they hear plenty of that and it’s not helpful for them to hear more. If I only saw them for a second I probably wouldn’t saw anything. I don’t see how screaming a one liner at them would advance pro-life goals at all.
More than advancing prolife goals it is the salvation of both of their souls that is most important.
I would call him a baby killer and I would pray that the Lord send the Holy Spirit down upon him and awaken him from his depravity. Carla, the truth is every man’s only path to salvation.
Yeah Carla I would be concerned about that too, but I think that a dialogue with them would work better to that end as well, your first comment is very good.
I think JDC had a great idea about asking them what they wanted to grow up to become when they were children. I’ve never in my life met a child who wants to grow up and kill developing babies for a living. Kids who are interested in medicine are interested because they want to help people, not kill. My daughter currently wants to be a respiratory therapist (she calls them “bweathing doctows” lol) because she saw how the one who took care of my son at the ER last month helped him. My son is interested in being a veterinarian because he wants to help sick animals (that one might be him trying to impress Dad though lol). Kids don’t want to kill, they want to help people and animals and help heal them. So like you JDC I would be interested to see when that changed for people like Carhart. He was once a little boy and he probably wanted to help and heal people at some point, I wonder if a dialogue about that and how that changed might get him thinking.
Regardless, yelling at him about how he’s a baby killer, publicly naming and shaming him in an airport, and things of that nature… I just don’t see that advancing any of our goals. These people get yelled at and slurs thrown at them a lot, I believe it makes the pro-life movement look unloving and further hardens the hearts of these men and women who are involved in abortion.
And I know Jesus was not shy about pointing out wrongful behavior, and neither should we be, but we should be speaking the truth in a loving and kind way to the best of our ability like he did. Even though what they do is so sickening and wrong it’s difficult to keep cool about it. If I only had a couple seconds, I might say something like “God loves you and all the babies too!” if I felt moved to say something. Yelling condemnation probably wouldn’t help him and it’s not what we should be doing IMHO. I’d much prefer an actual conversation rather than even a polite or loving one-liner.
As a Christian, we can follow Jesus example who even shared a meal with, as one translation has it, “scum”. (See Matthew 9:11) It was the Pharisees that had a problem with Jesus.
Maybe we should do more than a handshake but invite them out to eat. We need to be kind to the unsaved in this life, because we will have eternity with God, they will not.
And also some people are really sensitive to criticism and condemnation (there’s someone who posts on this blog who’s name starts with a “J” who’s sensitive about condemnation!!). When it comes to those people, a friendship and positive dialogue can go a long way on helping them correct their behavior or improve themselves, and harsh criticism and condemnation can push them farther away and solidify their determination in their bad behavior. I know that “tough love” approaches never worked on me, they just upset me and made me feel hopeless to improve myself, some people’s personalities or prior traumas make an aggressive approach a really bad idea and I think we should be aware of that.
I do not feel comfortable treating evil like it is ordinary or evil people like they are friends. The world would be a better place w/o them and I am better off w/o them in my life. Carhart would not want to be around me and I like it that way.
Praying for you truthseeker.
Jack
Could we possibly be agreeing on something? freals??
Question, truthseeker: do you think that church and Jesus’s love are for perfect people or for the sinners and the wretched? Do you think Jesus would refuse to associate with an abortionist, an LGBT person, an atheist, a terrorist, an alcoholic, etc? Or would Jesus condemn the sin while reaching out to the sinner to bring him or her to him? I don’t know about you but I can’t picture the Jesus I see described in the Bible as rejecting people right off the bat. And I think that if Christianity is about emulating Jesus, we should do what he would do, treat people as he would treat them.
Lol Carla. I post my agreement on things all the time! I just don’t think people notice unless I’m arguing something. :)
JDC, you are searching for answers that you would be greatly disappointed in. Carhart didn’t have some “changing” moment in his life. He just made a conscious decision to kill innocent children cause it makes him money. He would also kill you or me for money if he got paid well and he thought he could get away with it. Don’t expect rational reasoning from a man who travels the country killing babies for a living.
Thank you Carla.
You do the devil’s work. And unless you stop and repent, you will pay dearly for it.
Deluded Lib, I am uncomfortable in the presence of people who kill children for a living.
Me too, truth. I’m more than uncomfortable, I end up full of disgust and rage when I’m around people who have hurt and/or continue to hurt any children in any way. But it’s not about you or my comfort level, it’s about doing what’s right. I’m forever grateful to the people who ignore their disgust and anger at me and my sins and try to show God’s love. I think it’s something we should all strive to.
Deluded Lib; like Becca said above…she would tell Carhart to repent and be saved. Carhart’s salvation will come with his awakening to sorrow for the women and children he has molested and killed. It is not your forgiveness or my forgiveness that can save Carhart.
I have talked to abortionist Martin Ruddock several times. Isnt there something in scripture that warns some will be turned over to a reprobate mind. Ruddock is in his 70s and I believe he is reprobate. I still pray for him. He hasnt lost his hit man for hire mentality.
Hmmmm but calling Carhart and Ruddock baby killers is accurate. I remember Laci Petersons mom Mark Klass and many other victims families yelling at their childrens killers ” I hope you rot in hell”!
I remember the morning news flashing across the screen that George Tiller had been murdered. As people were shocked and calling it a terrible set back for choice I just shrugged my shoulders slipped my coat on and went on about my day hoping that before he had drawn his final breath that he may have repented.
Jesus ate with sinners who were aware of their sin and sought his grace.
He also ate with Pharisees, who were self-righteous.
He conversations at those two types of dinner parties were rather different – one compassionate, one combative. But always truthful and loving.
* his conversations … (doh!)
And I think “we’re praying for you” is almost as good as you can do if all you have is a second.
Oh Jack… Your 6:51 and 7:38 comments are just excellent. Thank you for those.
How many are led to the love of Jesus Christ by being called “baby killers?”
Accurate or not. Are we called to be accurate?? Or are we called to lead others to Him?
Are we gonna love the sinner and hate the sin or are we going to be the hypocrites we are accused of being??
I agree Kel.
Jesus has gotten ahold of our friend Jack. :)
Love wins.
Haven’t read the comments yet. But I have spoken to an abortionist and speak to him every week I’m at the clinic. His name is Lee Tripp. I have shared the gospel. He laughs at me, but never can he say to God that no one shared the truth with him. I also ask him what he thinks when he sees those broken bodies. He shrugs. I ask him why on earth would he take such great intellect, and all that hard work through medical school to sit between women’s legs and scrape out their children week after week, year after year? Didn’t he envision better for himself when he decided to go into medicine? He always looks away and smokes his cigarette.
Sydney,
He is a narcissist in it for the money.
Carla,
You can love him. I’ll leave him alone…. unless he maims or murders someone close to me.
I think it’s fascinating that if you ask a pro-lifer why Jesus said not to pray on street corners, their answer is, “Because not everyone will be able to hear you.”
Thank you Kel and Carla. But that’s why I feel so strongly against the name calling and harsh condemnation. When I was trying to find a church I could fit into I ran into several that didn’t have any kind words for people like me (in sermons, I was too scared to actually talk to anyone because I really didn’t want any “tough love” that people alway talk about). But people talking so harshly about those sins just made it so I couldn’t stand being there and just made it so I couldn’t stand being me even more. I certainly didn’t feel any love from Jesus and it didn’t seem like there was any mercy and grace for me, I actually thought that you here on the blog must be lying to me when you say that churches will accept you and teach you about God’s love. It was just more of the same condemnation I always got at churches and it was discouraging.
But the church I go to now wasn’t like that. People smiled at me and said hello and tried to get to know me (it was WEIRD in my opinion, Christians had never liked me much lol, mostly my fault). People would invite me to dinner and Bible studies and just be kind to me. Nobody has called me any names there and no one keeps yelling at me about how bad I am. So of course it’s the only church I’ve ever kept going to, it’s the only one where I can see what people are talking about when they talk about church families and showing Jesus’s love and everything. I can’t remember ever not dreading church, but I don’t dread this one. I go every Sunday morning and Wednesday now!
That’s what I would want to show to Carhart or any of the other abortionists. I would want them to feel that acceptance and safety, where people just want to reach you and show you love, not condemn you and tell you that you’re a terrible sinner all the time. I really hope that someone treats Carhart like I am treated at my church and it gets through to him. No one is hopeless and like I said, he was a young boy or teenager who wanted to be a doctor to help people at one point, that little boy could still be reached if people show him Jesus’s love in my opinion.
Truthseeker…he may be. But only God can see the heart. Man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart. And God has commanded Christians to go into the world and share the gospel, didn’t He? Who needs to hear the gospel more than someone who slaughters children for a living? Maybe he is so sick of his sin, so weary in his soul he is READY to turn to the Savior. I don’t know. Maybe he will never repent. Maybe he will die in his sins and spend an eternity in hell. That isn’t for me to say. I know it doesn’t cost me anything so share that Jesus saves and so I do. What he does with that information is his business. But my conscience is clear before God that I did what my Lord asked of me.
I think of the Charles Spurgeon quote:
“If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”
Yes, child-killing is disgusting. I am disgusted. Think how much more God is disgusted who SEES these children, KNOWS the futures He has planned for them, calls them by NAME…but that the blood of Christ can cover even our most disgusting sins and that God will look on us and not see our disgusting behaviors and choices but HIS SON. That we can be washed white as snow…wow. I will never stop sharing that with anybody.
Deluded Lib,
I wouldn’t want to be part of a church that accepted unrepentant child molesters into their community.
Sydney,
I am all for sharing the gospel. It is a truly powerful weapon against evil. God bless you.
Truth, why would you say that to me, knowing that you basically described the church I grew up in? Are you trying to hurt me? Not very kind.
But anyway, of course I would never again belong to church where child rapists are allowed to be free and continue to hurt children. I would expect every true Christian to do everything they could to get the abuser put in jail so children could be protected, and them I would expect that they minister to him/her while they are in prison. But unfortunately abortion is not illegal, and Carhart can’t be put in prison. And the children in church are not in danger from him (as long as they are born). So I think a church would have the duty to minister to him and try to show him love, that would be the best they could do to try and protect children and turn him from his child killing.
Jack, hearing these things from you has touched me more than you could possibly know. I love you and I’m so proud of you!!
No joke: I thought I may have shopped Costco alongside Cecile Richards once. There was a women who, if not her, looked strikingly similar. She was professionally dressed and was loading her cart with what would appear to be individual meals for a meeting… lots and lots of prepared sandwiches and salads. The thing that gave me pause is that I wondered, if it were her, wouldn’t she have people seeing to that?
At any rate, the thing that struck me was how very human the moment was. My sense of compassion for her was stirred. I don’t mean that I had compassion for her thinking or actions, but rather for the fact that any person who is sowing seeds of sin is going to reap death… and certain thinking and actions speak rather powerfully of what seeds are being sown.
I honestly have no idea if it actually was her. I tried looking online to see if she was scheduled to speak in my area or anything, but didn’t find any information one way or another.
Regardless, I was changed by the experience and have prayed differently for her since.
To answer the direct question: I don’t know what I’d do (at Costco we weren’t close, we crossed paths maybe a half-dozen times, and I had my children with me occupying my attention).
Ultimately, I’m sure we all interact ignorantly with people engaged in just-as-evil practices but because they aren’t nationally recognized names/faces, we have no idea. Statistically we’ve had to had conversed with many people who, if we only knew, would make our skin crawl. Perhaps it was better that way.
I posted a response to your question, “What would you say to an abortionist?” on my Facebook page in the form of a letter from a woman named Emily to an abortionist going by the same first name who shared her story online:
https://www.facebook.com/london.henry.books/posts/312443178906275?stream_ref=10
(First link doesn’t work. Sorry for the double post.)
I posted a response to your question, “What would you say to an abortionist?” on my Facebook page in the form of a letter from a woman named Emily to an abortionist going by the same first name who shared her story online:
https://www.facebook.com/london.henry.books/posts/312445772239349?stream_ref=10
Like Ive said one huge misconception about Christians is that we believe we are so perfect. God can take some of the worst people and change them. Sydney thats great that Lee Tripp is listening to you. Ruddock would not hear us. Not people who tried to show him tough love pr compassion. He flips the bird..tries to run us over with his Lexus…sometimes exits his vehicle cussing. All we can do is try. However his clinic was closed and he is now baby killing it MI so I dont talk to him anymore. The good news is pro lifers always talked to his pretty nurse Caroline. Shed had an abortion and she could get nasty too. She had DUI license plates on her car. One day she came out for a smoke break and walked out to the sidewalk to pro lifers. A pastor gave her the usual stern warning about her eternal salvation. She looked at him and asked “Can I have a hug”? He hugged her. She then returned to her profanity and kept working for Ruddock for several more months. The great news is she finally left the industry and found a normal nursing job. She came back to tell the pastor. Go Caroline!!!
Sydney the fact that he smokes shows he is not at peace imo. As far as forgiving them idk. Would anyone suggest Mark Klass sit down with the pedophile who raped and killed his little daughter? Chances are hes a sociopath and could care less. I was listening to Christian radio the other day and the pastor said ” we choose to sin.” I started thinking about it. I believe hes right. So Carhart Ruddock Tripp Pinkerton ( Another Cleveland abortionist )..,please lay down your weapons of mass destruction.
Also….not to throw the thread but look at the remarks made about Sterling and JJ Reddick. We have to love and pray for them too.
If I ran into an abortionist, I would probably say, “God Bless You” and give him a bottle of Holy Water and/or a Bible.
I would not spend too much time with him/her. I have learned the hard way that some people are best loved and prayed for from a distance.
Well put Prax. It doesnt do much good anyway. Many who have left the abortion industry said they became abortionists to help women. That was until they became so sickened with sin. And back to Sterling and Redding…you have to watch that double standard of standing and judging them if you are going to be kind and loving to an abortionist. Sterling and Reddick havent killed anyone.
Deluded Lib,
Carhart is an unrepentant molester of women and children. He shows willingness to travel the country doing the sickest of evil for money. Your assurances that children are safe around him rings hollow.
It just makes me wonder when I look at the little faces on the late term babies…what did the poor souls go through before some evil person ripped off your arm and penis along with your umbilical cord. Their faces showed terror and it makes me totally ill. Or the mere thought of what happens behind those doors when they are born alive. *Shudder* abortion is so evil it sickens me to my core. How can a woman push and feel that baby leave her body yet not even wonder where their childs remains are. I would be a wreck!
And there is no profanity on this blog but my ex got a woman pregnant and she had an abortion. She had one living daughter and this was her 8th and final abortion. We got into a fight on the phone because Id asked my ex to come and pick up our son. He never showed up. Teresa had to have a hysterectomy because doctors told her at a PC hospital “Youve had too many abortions”. She called me a bad mother. I lol and screamed into the phone “Well shame on you *profanity* at least I dont kill my children like you do you blanking blank…*more profanity* She screamed back something about her body her choice. My reply was “Im so glad you no longer have the choice to keep killing.” Phone slam.
Carol Everett
Bernard Nathanson
Anthony Levatino
Beverly McMillan
ALL former abortionists. ALL saved by grace.
I thank God for those of you that continue to pray without ceasing. That continue to show grace and love and mercy to those that need it the most.
NOBODY is beyond the redemption of Jesus Christ. NOBODY.
Lord,
We ask that you reveal in a life changing way the evil of abortion to Leroy and Cecile. That you take the blinders off of their eyes. That they see and know and feel the evil that they have been involved and we pray Lord that you save them. We ask that you send your Holy Spirit to turn their hearts to repentance and be glorified in their stories. Let them use their lives for You and not for evil. For their good and for Your glory.
In the precious name of Jesus we pray. Amen.
Amen.
Truthseeker, he’s a murderer of children, I don’t know why you keep saying molested, it covers up what he does. He has murdered thousands of babies. Sill doesn’t mean he isn’t able to access Gods love and it doesn’t mean we all refuse to show it to him.
Thanks Kel I love you too.
“The big question is then how pro-lifers can interact with an abortionist without appearing judgmental or aggressive”
I personally think converted abortionists are the ones in the best position to do this. The rest of us need to be careful, imo.
“he was a young boy or teenager who wanted to be a doctor to help people at one point”
Do we know this for sure? Maybe he was pressured by family/friends/teachers to become a doctor? Maybe he was abused by a woman and really hates women and wants to hurt them. Maybe he is a pervert who got into abortion for that reason knowing he would get to be around women, many of them underage. Maybe he wanted to be a doctor for the money. Or the prestige. Maybe he believes in the agenda that the “undesirables” should not procreate. Maybe he is filled with bloodlust and really enjoys killing.
Not everyone who becomes a doctor does so because they care about people. Not every abortionist cares about women to say nothing of caring about our rights.
I meant he could have, obviously I don’t know for sure. I was thinking about that one dude who quit being an abortionist, I think it was Nathanson.
Deluded Lib,
Not all molestation is sexual. There is no doubt that he molests women and children.
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:1-8
I think using that word obfuscates the issue. He’s a killer. What he is doing is killing children. Pro-choicers like to dance around that fact, so I think we should proclaim it loudly.
And many of the women choose to come to him to get an abortion. Some are coerced by husbands/boyfriends/parents or (in the case of a sick baby) the medical establishment. But some choose to do so of their own free will. They need love and support too, and accountability.
For a start I wopuld have gladly taken the seat vacated by someone whose new seat found him praying out loud for two hours on a plane. Give me a crying baby! What if someone of a certain other faith started praying out loud on a plane – panic? Alarm at the very least.
I’d leave Carhart in peace so he can relax and enjoy his flight, a smile and a ‘hello’ would suffice. He gets enough invasion of his privacy from self-appointed arbiters of society.
“Not all molestation is sexual” – you can say that again! ;-)
Hi Reality, if I met you on a plane I would start a dialogue with you, and I wouldn’t yell at you to repent!
A psalm of David.
I sing of mercy and justice; to you, LORD, I sing praise.
I study the way of integrity when will you come to me?
I act with integrity of heart within my household.
I do not allow into my presence anything base.
I hate wrongdoing; I will have no part of it.
May the devious heart keep far from me;
the wicked I will not acknowledge.
Whoever slanders a neighbor in secret I will reduce to silence. Haughty eyes and arrogant hearts
I cannot endure. I look to the faithful of the land
to sit at my side.
Whoever follows the way of integrity is the one to enter my service. No one who practices deceit can remain within my house. No one who speaks falsely can last in my presence.
Morning after morning I clear all the wicked from the land,
to rid the city of the LORD of all doers of evil.
Psalm 101:1-8
“The grass withers, the flower wilts,
but the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8
Deluded Lib,
Carhart molests every child he tears to pieces. Why do you have such a hard time seeing that he molests them when he is killing them?
truth –
Your fascination of speaking of molestation and anal sex are both starting to creep me out more than a little bit.
Nor I you, and I’m sure we would find much to discuss about which we agreed LDPL :-)
Truthseeker I can’t separate the word “molest” from sexual abuse. I would say “mutilation” for the what he does to the children before they die. He mutilates and kills them.
Anyway the definition of “molest” without the sexual component is “to disturb or annoy”. Seems like a mild term for tearing apart someone’s body. I actually have always thought that “molest” was a mild word to use for child sexual abuse too, I don’t like words that make horrifying things sound less horrifying, though I sometimes use it out of habit I do think sexual abuse is a better term than molest. And mutilation is much more accurate than molest for what Carhart does to the babies.
And use whatever language you want, I’ll use kill and mutilate to describe late term abortions because it describes the full horror.
Truth I think the better question is why do you want to use a term like molest that obfuscates the truth (IMO) of what happens to those babes.
Everyone associates the word molest with sexual abuse, so if you don’t think Carhart is sexually abusing the babies he aborts than I don’t know why you wouldn’t say he mutilates them, or something like that. It seems like a weird word choice in my opinion.
Ex-RINO, lol.. I haven’t mentioned anal sex in this thread at all….the better question is why did you just bring it up?
Yes Reality I bet we could have some great conversations, but you know I’ll never give up trying to gently convert you to pro-life! I still think you’d make an excellent pro-lifer. I think you and I would get along fabulously! Except you will probably now look down on me because I’ve converted lol. ;)
I would say he mutilates them. That word works for me too. Carhart goes into these babies home; their place where they should be safe and he attacks them. They try to hide from his scissors but they can’t escape. He molests them as he mutilates them and kills them. And this is the person that you would welcome into your church and feel it is safe having yours or other peoples children interact with him?
Why would you feel the need to try to convert me, I’m happy to let you be.
Whatever it is that makes you think I might be a good ‘pro-lifer’ is what keeps me a pro-choicer.
What do you mean you’ve converted?
How do you expect him to see the light if no one ever offers it to him truthseeker?
Sometimes what people need is acceptance and love to see that why they are doing is wrong, and I think it’s pretty clear in the Bible that we are supposed to offer that to sinners. Not stupidly, of course, like I wouldn’t let him babysit for me, but I would definitely sit down with him, talk to him, read the Bible with him, pray for him, invite him to my church, etc… The church was never meant for perfect people, that way of thinking keeps people from ever getting close to Jesus because they feel rejected by Christians and therefore God.
Now I don’t think we are all called to be the same, and if you can’t handle personally reaching out to those who are involved in abortions that’s between you and God. But you ARE called to treat him with love. “love your enemies” doesn’t come with any caveats as far as I can tell.
“Why would you feel the need to try to convert me, I’m happy to let you be.”
I don’t know if convert is the right word. I’ve always had more pro-choice friends than pro-life friends (side effect of being mostly liberal in other ways lol). I don’t harass or be mean to my pro-choice friends about their views, but it’s not a subject I can agree to disagree on, so when it comes up I’m very clear about how I feel about their views. It’s lost me a couple friends, but since I’m not mean about it it’s usually fine. I’ve even had friends who became pro-life after years of debating with me! I can always dream that you’ll become pro-life! :)
I mean since I’ve converted to Christianity… You don’t always give off the impression that you think much of Christians and our collective intelligence levels lol
Yeah. Love your enemies is one of the most radical concepts Jesus preached to us and also one of the hardest to follow. And I have the most trouble following it when people are actively hurting others. We both agree that we want to stop them but sometimes it is really hard to just let them keep abusing others and place your hope in their conversion. A 9mm hollow point might be the best way to get my love across cause my love for the innocent surpasses my love for the abuser. And thats why I would never welcome him in my house….it would not be a good thing.
I guess that being pro-choice means I’m generally more of a mind to let people hold their own views without feeling the need to bother them about it :-)
I just find that claiming any sort of theist or deist ‘faith’ while possessing intellectual prowess to be a bit contradictory LDPL. One eye blind? I am aware that there are various reasons why people claim to have faith though.
Truthseeker, if your version of loving someone is killing them I guess I’m really glad you aren’t God!!
I get feeling helpless and just wanting the killing and abuses to stop. But like I said, abortion isn’t illegal yet. Like it or not, those involved in abortion in whatever capacity are going to be in the community and there is nothing we can do about it unless they break a law. So I believe the best way we can try to protect the unborn babies is by trying to reach them. People screaming at me about my sins and telling me how terrible I was never reached me, it just made me feel worse about myself and made me feel like God hated me. I was reached by people accepting me and treating me like a person deserving of love, I’d never been treated like that even when I was a baby. And I think that’s the best way to reach those in the abortion industry. I don’t agree with Abby Johnson on many things but I do like that she reaches out in a loving way to those who work in the industry. We need people who work to those ends, to get people out of the industry. If that’s not your calling it’s fine, but violent rhetoric and cruelty isn’t going to protect babies and I know it’s not something Jesus wants.
truth –
Yes – I see you had to qualify “this thread”.
Let me ask you a question Deluded Lib. If you knew a child molester was attending your church would you encourage him to hang around? The Catholic Church tried forgiving some child molester priests and praying for their conversion but they kept abusing. At what point would you write them off and no longer welcome them?
lol Ex-RINO, or the last thread. Or the huge majority of threads I post on. And when I do post about it is only to strongly condemn it. Are you going through a sexual catharsis?
Well Reality, from a pro-life perspective just “live and let live” when it comes to pro-choice viewpoints allow more babies to die. It’s not something I can ignore. It’s not like I approve of harassing or being mean to pro-choicers, you know that, but I will always be clear to them I disagree with their views on the subject and try to get them to see my point of view.
“I just find that claiming any sort of theist or deist ‘faith’ while possessing intellectual prowess to be a bit contradictory LDPL. One eye blind? I am aware that there are various reasons why people claim to have faith though.”
Well, you always get mad when I call myself stupid so you obviously don’t think I’m completely unintelligent. I am well aware there are logical inconsistencies with faith, but you know it doesn’t really matter to me anymore, it used to drive me crazy. But a few months ago I was seriously planning suicide, I had a note typed up and I jut had to figure out a way to die where I wouldn’t end up traumatizing whoever found my body. It was really the end for me. But then I found this church and I was actually accepted, it’s almost like having a family. I never had a family. And through them I could see that maybe there is something to this whole Jesus thing. And there is, in my opinion. It’s like having a friend to talk to all the time who will never leave or hurt you. It was what I needed, I can’t really call myself happy but at least I am not planning on dying anymore. So I don’t think it’s so much as a disconnect as just finding something to cling to when you have nothing left and no reason to live anymore.
Truthseeker, cut it out, you know that if I were aware of a child rapist in my church I would do everything in my power to get him or her put in prison. Raping kids, unlike abortion, is illegal, so there is the possibility of getting the abuser put in jail to protect the kids. And like I said, you know I grew up in a church that protected my abusers, so I really wish you’d stop implying that I would protect abusers myself. I really, really don’t appreciate it.
Yes, love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
But we are not required to surround ourselves with them.
How many times in Proverbs are we told that bad company corrupts good character? We are told also to flee temptation, and to have nothing to do with people of the darkness.
When Jesus began to send his disciples to nearby towns to proclaim the gospel, He told them if they are not welcomed, to leave the city immediately and dust off their clothes.
If someone like Carhart came to Jesus, Jesus would welcome him, and tell him to go and sin no more.
” Like it or not, those involved in abortion in whatever capacity are going to be in the community and there is nothing we can do about it unless they break a law.”
Deluded Lib, I disagree. There have been time in our civilization when atrocities were carried out legally and good people still did something about it. There are societies today where child molestation is ‘legal’
But I still think the child rapist should be shown the love of Christ, when he or she is in prison and children are safe. If abortion were illegal I would want the same for abortionists.
And like I said we are all called for different things, I sincerely doubt I would be capable of ministering to a child rapists, it’s not something we are all capable of. But I’m still called to love them, as difficult as that is for me. Something I need to work on, just as you apparently need to work on loving those who work in the abortion industry.
“Truthseeker, if your version of loving someone is killing them I guess I’m really glad you aren’t God!!”
Ahh!! Something we can agree on. Me too!
“It’s not like I approve of harassing or being mean to pro-choicers, you know that, but I will always be clear to them I disagree with their views on the subject and try to get them to see my point of view” – making your viewpoint clear is fine, explaining why is fine. Some people though, do harass and get mean.
“you obviously don’t think I’m completely unintelligent” – I find you very intellligent, along with a few other anti-choicers here.
“I am well aware there are logical inconsistencies with faith” – yep.
“but you know it doesn’t really matter to me anymore, it used to drive me crazy” – do you really realise what you are saying here, especially given what you say above?
Maybe I make too broad a generalisation but I tend to equate intellectual capacity with a demand for facts and evidence. Thus I find faith and high intellect a bit dichotomous. Or maybe in some instances, a little less than honest. This very site recently told us that children with downs syndrome were ‘the more godly amongst us’ or something similar to that. I found it an odd thing to say.
I’m really glad you’ve found a group who accept you and support you. There are atheist groups which will do the same. Sounds like you’ve found a congregation more focussed on practising what they believe rather than using it as a weapon.
“It’s like having a friend to talk to all the time who will never leave or hurt you” – well what can I say about that ;-)
“But we are not required to surround ourselves with them.
How many times in Proverbs are we told that bad company corrupts good character? We are told also to flee temptation, and to have nothing to do with people of the darkness.”
But see, people use these verses as an excuse to shun and ignore those who aren’t living right. I know people hate it when I do this but I’ll use the way Christians treat gays as an example. One of the first churches I went to here in Oregon, the third week I was there they did a sermon on how LGBT people are infiltrating churches. The pastor went on about how most gay or bisexual people who attend church are not there for God, they are there to try and force acceptance and change the church into part of the “homosexual agenda”. I can’t describe how awful I felt sitting on a back pew listening to how I apparently was just trying to infiltrate churches and bring good Christians down, it certainly didn’t make me feel any of God’s love. I left and never came back. And it was really, really difficult to make myself continue searching for a church that didn’t treat LGBT people like they were automatically bad people. I even had to email Carla and get reassurance that all Christians wouldn’t think of me like that or treat me with suspicion forever. And I know I’m not the only LGBT person who had similar experiences, I’ve read a lot of books and articles from celibate (or not) LGBT people who faced similar rejection.
I just don’t think church is a place that you’re only allowed to attend if you’re already In a place where you’ve started working on your sin. At my church there’s this lesbian couple who visits on occasion, I carefully observed how they are treated and they aren’t treated as if they are somehow dirtying up the congregation by being there. And the only person there who knows what I am says my orientation doesn’t make a difference to him, that I’m just as welcome as anyone else. So really, I know we can’t approve of sin, but how do people ever change or see us reflect Gods love if we don’t allow them around church, if we don’t accept them into the fold so to speak?
To be clear I’m not saying anyone has to approve of sinful behavior, but I do think people use those Proverbs as a sinful excuse to ostracize certain sinners. I don’t think alcoholics or liars generally get kicked out of church, but LGBT people certainly do, and abortionists, and other sinners people have decided are worse.
Reality –
I find that BOTH side take a large degree of faith – the acknowledgment that you just don’t know every aspect of how. Sure, it’s crazy to think that there is a God out there that created us and set everything in order. It takes just as much faith, and is equally crazy to think of what all would have had to happen for us to a giant cosmic accident.
The intellectal angle just doesn’t get real far with me. I know historical people of faith, and atheists, and both parties posses people much smarter than I am – so to claim one side has the upper hand on the intellectual argument – I jsut don’t buy it.
What good would it do to talk to a sociopath? Should Mark Klass or John Walsh ever shake hands with the evil sickos that murdered their children?
“I find that BOTH sides take a large degree of faith” – ah, if only I had a dollar for every time a theist says that Ex-GOP :-)
Atheists don’t feel the need to fill the unknown with stuff which has historically been purloined by those seeking power and fortune.
I think of the sheer volume of what was considered ‘god’s work’ because it wasn’t understood but now is. This has spawned groups such as Uncommon Descent who work so hard to fit faith into a continuously blooming body of knowledge about the universe.
‘Historical’ people had somewhat less knowledge than is now possessed. We have less than what will be possessed tomorrow. The gap available for god shrinks unassailably.
Reality – and that is the easy way out – just don’t feel the need to fill the unknown and live in pleasant apathy.
There’s no way either one of us will convince the other – so let’s just get past that.
With three kids and the life I’ve had, I see evidence of faith everywhere – and I can’t imagine living a life seeing all of it a chance encounter. If you can, and you find comfort in that – that’s great for you. Just doesn’t match up with what is logical for me.
Hi Jack. Just want to say that I am so glad that you found a church family that is showing you God’s love. You and your family continue to be in my prayers. I agree that there is no way for LGBT people to find God’s grace and love if the church does not extend it to them. I am so glad that God continually extends his grace (his unmerited favor) and forgiveness to me every day. May God bless you. “His mercy endures forever” and Christ is able to transform all of us “if any man be in Christ he is a new creation”. so that “old things are passed away and behold all things become new”. So glad that the depression you experienced is lifting. Wishing you God’s very best, he has a special plan for you and your children, you are a very special young man. Jeremiah 29:11
I would hope and pray that if I had the opportunity to be in contact with an abortionist that God would give me the wisdom and compassion to say something to help them and draw them toward God’s love. I would not be able to do anything in my own strength.
That is not what I said Ex-GOP. Atheists seek to answer the unknown with facts and evidence, learning. We aren’t the ones who just plug in a magical ‘X’ as the answer for the unknown.
Tis ok, I am happy for folks to have their beliefs. Until it is used in the wrong way.
“I see evidence of faith everywhere” – so do I. Unfortunately it isn’t always to positive effect.
True, Jack, that no one should shun someone looking for a relationship with their Savior. But if an abortionist attended my church and over an extended period of time continued to do abortions, we would need to lovingly speak to this person and take measures to ensure that his or her sin does not lead others astray. All sin is equally damning, but not equal in its earthly consequences.
“I do think people use those Proverbs as a sinful excuse to ostracize certain sinners.”
Deluded Lib, can you clarify what you mean by people using Proverbs as a sinful excuse? I am not sure I follow what you are saying and I don’t want to misinterpret it.
“I don’t think alcoholics or liars generally get kicked out of church, but LGBT people certainly do, and abortionists, and other sinners people have decided are worse.”
The thing you seem to be missing is the idea of repentance. If a person is party to abortion but repents; then the church will open her arms to that person. If a person is a part of the abortion industry and non-repentant then no church should accept them as a part of the community of faithful. They can still minister to them and study scripture with them but not be expected to treat them as if they were already followers of Christ. If a person has told lies in the past but they are sorry for their lies and are repentant then the church would welcome them; but seriously; why would any church member want liars as part of their congregation?
I tried to explain truth, people use that and the “unequally yolked” verses as excuses to avoid forming relationships with and ministering to those who commit sins they decide are worse. LGBT people in particular get the brunt of this in my opinion (though that personally affects me so it might be confirmation bias on my part), but other people like those who partake in abortion are also affected by this. I don’t think the admonition in scripture to protect yourself from getting “sucked in” to people’s sin was ever meant to be used to ostracize or shun people or keep them from a church congregation. Even those who participate in or commit abortions.
Thanks Prolifer L I appreciate the kind words and prayer.
Truthseeker, again I ask you how people are supposed to find their way if they aren’t accepted around Christians until they are already repentant? Or am I misunderstanding what you’re saying?
It depends on the person. We are each individual. Can we assume that they are trying to find their way to God through Jesus Christ. If they are an practicing abortionist then they have no chance of ever following Christ until they repent.
Deluded Lib, I am actually not familiar with the unequally yolked verse. I will have to look it up….
OK.. that is not Proverbs; that is 2 Cor 6:14 and I see how it warns the children of the light not to join in communion with those who live in darkness
‘Historical’ people had somewhat less knowledge than is now possessed. We have less than what will be possessed tomorrow. The gap available for god shrinks unassailably. –
Quite an impressive statement of faith!
It is entirely and self-evidently factual TLD, no ‘faith’ required.
What would I say to an abortionist? First, I would say a quick prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance. Then, I would remember that love and forgiveness drive the devil (the prince of deception and division) crazy. With that, I would say what ever comes to mind.
On another note:
Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason) by John Paul II is worth reading. Faith and Reason are not mutually exclusive. There are too many to list here but I suggest googling “Roman Catholic cleric scientists” for an appreciation of what high intellect persons of faith have contributed to our body of knowledge. Much of what the world accepts as scientific and mathematical fact they owe the clergy with its discovery.
We would all pray and hold hands before our spiritual battle with Ruddock. We generally spent 2 hours there even in freezing temps. It is commanded to save those being led to slaughter. We had men women ladies from Silent No more pastors and priests. Ruddock just seemed unreachable. Unlike the abortionists at Preterm Ruddock would come outside. Even his ex wife told us he was a sexual deviant during the course of their marriage. His clinic was closed for numerous health code violations. Sorry to hear he hasnt quit…just killing in MI now. We tried.
TS im not understanding why people have a problem with you saying Carhart molests women. Im sure he does. I really threw myself into the study of the abortion industry in 2006. Many abortionists have stalked raped and molested patients because the are predators. Face it…a woman has to let the abortionist into her private parts so hes got her in a good position. Besides these rapes or molestations generally go unreported because of shame.
Former abortionist Brian L. Finkle will spend the rest of his life behind bars for 80 counts of rape GSI and molesting patients. He even bosted that back in the day “Honey it was back in the days of working the abortion floor that I realized women will do ANYTHING to have an abortion.” He jerked one woman down hard in the stirrups and when she began to cry he yelled “Shut up”! Yet others were raped and he prided himself on inventing the super sucker…the suction machine with super high power. He was able to move the women along quicker. Also another abortionist pestered a patient at home and at work until she finally had sex with him.
Just looked up Finkle…he was giving patients oral sex and playing with their breasts and genitals pe op eeeewwwew gross! I have to remember these guys are sick in their heads like that abortionist in Canada who thinks hes a real stud with the ladies.
Truthseeker: your May 4, 2014 at 8:41 pm comment negates everything you proclaim about you being a Christian.
I do agree that molestation is the wrong word. I’d argue that coersion is more appropriate and does not place Pro-life in the predicament of back-paddling. True that molestation can be used to describe psychological coersion but the more accepted use denotes a sexual meaning.
Unless there is definite proof that abortionists engage in molestation or sexual activity with their patients, throwing it to the wind is unwise.
Dear Jack,
Preach it my brother!! :) You are making me well up with tears.
Please ignore truthseeker. He is incorrect that a church family welcomes folks WHEN they repent. THAT is not at all what loving the sinner means. At All. He/she is a hypocrite.
Jesus came for us. The weak and wounded, the sick and the sore.
I have been called a baby killer more times than a can count as a post abortive mom. In a church no less. And it broke my heart. I vowed NEVER to tell anyone about my abortion. It took me a long time to trust anyone that said they were “christian” and even longer to trust anyone with my story. But I met people that loved me enough to shut their yaps and listen. Really listen. To show me His love.
You know exactly what I am talking about Jack. You know the sting of rejection and the pain of broken promises and the scorn of others who think they are better than you. (Just like Jesus!!!)
You are on the right path my Jack friend and I am so grateful to God that we get to walk together. I love you.
And excuse me ExGop but you will never be up in those sturrips so you have no idea! I am a nurse and I have to provide services to people and sometimes you know they feel terribly shy or embarrassed about it. I know many fabulous OBgyns who understand how women feel but they have a job to do. BUT an abortionist is not a professional doctor. And indeed I have read story after story about ther inappropriate sexual misconduct.
Sorry …should have specified male OBgyns. Shoot in my pregnancy with my daughter I had an awesome male doctor. His wife was also expecting and she was a doctor too. Being on that table can make you very uncomfortable..but this was his first child so we would talk about our babies and bonded. When I was pregnant with my son I requested him and was sad to hear he had moved to Washington. He and I also saw eye to eye on abortion.
Hate for any other=murder.
Hatred is murder in God’s eyes.
So Carhart killing a baby and a longing to put a bullet in Carhart to kill him? Same thing truthseeker. Same thing.
Your hatred is murder.
Corrie Ten Boom faced one of the guards.
http://www.familylifeeducation.org/gilliland/procgroup/CorrieTenBoom.htm
In my experience, most of the time abortion supporters and doers are not interested in an honest sincere dialogue. They want to get off a trite sound bite and leave, but I still try to engage them in a real conversation in the hope they remove the blinders.
Plant seeds because through the stirring of the Holy Spirit they might bear fruit.
I have no idea if this thread is still relevant or not, but Jack, I was crying reading your comments. I have been praying for you a LOT over the past year or so and I am SO HAPPY for you and that you’ve accepted His love and peace and found church that treats you how Christ would treat you. You seem to be more at peace and that is amazing.
Also I 100% agree with yours and Carla’s comments about how to treat abortionists.
I think if I met an abortionist, I’d honestly have to overcome a lot of revulsion and would probably get the shakes and have a racing heart because I am highly sensitive to evil of that nature. It makes me physically react when I hear about people harming children/innocents. (Hence, I usually cannot stomach violent movies). Anyway, but, I would pray and would hope that I could talk to the abortionist. I’d strike up a conversation. I’d endeavor to show love in the way that Christ showed love to me.
Because y’all, I fail Him every single day. And my sin, to God, is no worse or better than Carhart’s sin. The only thing separating me from Carharts or Gosnell’s eternal fate is God’s redeeming grace. That’s it.
And personally I believe that God is big enough to save anyone, any sin. And I believe that He *desires* to save men and women who are involved in this. Because that would show how great is His grace and mercy. There is a time for Justice, yes, but I believe that time comes when a person dies. Until then, God will seek and God will pursue. And I pray that it overtakes those in the abortion industry.
It worked for so many others who were abortionists, and those who had abortions, and those who coerced abortions. Why not Carhart? Why not Gosnell?
Carla, if you want to give him my email you can.
I understand that Christ commands us to forgive because if we dont we carry that hate and it can destroy us. But God also says have no fellowship with the workers on iniquity. That said I hate Casey Anthony ( for example).. she is pure evil and imo a sociopath and compulsive liar. She killed Caley and she got off. I wouldnt want any contact with Casey. Likewise an abortionist unless he or she had repented. I look at the remains of the aborted child and the look of utter terror on their squished in little faces. Many burned by saline. The tears fall for them. Why didnt anyone want you? How could someone do this to you? Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.
I have forgiven all who have quit the industry. Ik some people who refuse to forgive Nathanson. I understand them as well. Sometimes when you see those broken and crushed little bodies and add in the evil women and men who promote this forgiving can be difficult. Ive been in many fights onn facebook because I tell them what they are. They try to squirm and mince words. Doesnt work on me.
LB,
Amen and amen!!!
You want Jack to have your email?
Jack? What say ye?
Yeah that’s fine. And no crying allowed LibertyBelle!! ;)
LOL Jack, well, I spose I’ll amend that to say I teared up. Haven’t been able to cry in months. So no worries.
Wait, Jack converted? Jack loves Jesus?? My entire house could blow up today, and I would still say today was GREAT. I’m so happy… not sure how I missed this!!!
(((jack))))
I understand that Christ commands us to forgive because if we don’t we carry that hate and it can destroy us.
No, Christ commands you to forgive because in so doing, you imitate God the Father. It should be manifest to any Christian that forgiveness is done for the good of the person being forgiven, not for the good of the person doing the forgiving, because God forgives although in His perfection he will neither benefit from granting forgiveness nor be made worse by withholding it.
Likewise, there is a very clear Christian answer to the question of what a pro-lifer should do when seated on a plane next to a physician who performs abortions. (We shall assume, for the sake of argument, that a pro-lifer is incapable of spending two hours without harassing anybody.) Young Mr. O’Morchoe could have prayed internally for strength to overcome his attack of the vapors and then tried to change Carhart’s mind about abortion. Instead, he chose to make a public show of praying at great length and then blogged about it to make sure that everyone who had not personally witnessed his display still knew that he had done it. And so he has his reward–but he has almost certainly done nothing but confirm the stereotype that pro-lifers are motivated by sanctimony rather than saintliness.
Lol harassing pro lifers? Whatever. I give up hours of my time for free to prevent the slaughter of children. Few people even know what I do but I make my position on being PL very clear.
The only approval I need is that of God. Nobody elses opinion counts.
I always have to laugh when atheists very selectively forget the great evils that have been born out of philosophies that are anti-God.
Seriously, I laugh so hard. And shake my head at the willful blindness. If I didn’t laugh, I’d cry at such ridiculous ignorance and haughtiness.
As for you, Jack… I just can’t stop smiling about you, and I mean in a good way. :)
Well I would jump in to root for Jack but he is mad at me right now for reserving the death penalty for the worst of the worst :(
Well what the heck. :)
How am I mad???? You can approve of the death penalty if you want, I don’t have to!!
Thank you Courtnay and Kel. :)
I wasn’t mad but now I’m mad I was accused of being mad. ;)
“I always have to laugh when atheists very selectively forget the great evils that have been born out of philosophies that are anti-God” – which anti-god philosophies have delivered great evils? And will you keep laughing at the great evils, wars and slaughters committed in the name of god? Do you know how many children have needlessly died, in the US, in recent years, because their parents thought prayer was better than medicine?
Reality –
I’m doing something that I hate when people do – but I’m going to jump in quick before jumping off this thread – looks like the conversation has mostly gone elsewhere during my day at work. Anyway:
– To our previous discussion – I agree with your point. In both people of faith, and those without faith – there are items (many) that can’t be explained – and in both cases, people make assumptions and place their trust in the general world view that they have. While both have many items that they feel are easily explained, there are numerous other things that can’t – and it takes faith to believe that the answer fits in with the rest of their world view.
– People have been twisting religion for years – but they’ve done the same thing to science. Maybe the church pressured psychologists, but being gay was a mental disorder according to the science community. And you’re quick to point out rightfully that kids have needlessly died because of bad religion – but where is your extra line pointing out that kids nave needlessly died because of bad interpretations of science – people believing vaccinations lead to other issues. You are smart – and you know quite well that the misinterpretation of science has killed quite a few people through time.
Hi Ex-GOP, always good to hear from you.
– the difference being that atheists don’t attribute all unknowns to a single cause. And we continue to seek the real answers rather than simply allot it to god and give up.
– some twist science, sometimes science has been wrong – discovered to be so by….science. This would include the DSM. Anti-vaxxers, climate deniers, accommodationists etc. are usually operating on ignorance or dishonesty. That doesn’t change the science. It doesn’t invalidate science. Nor does it cause science to retreat.
Thomas R. My comment at *:41 may negate some things but not everything. And Carla, I love you but let me ask you a question. If somebody broke into my house and threatened my children and you I home and had a chance to stop him by killing him; or letting him continue his molestation; do you think it would be hypocritical of me to kill them? Or what if I called the police and they killed him; would that be less hypocritical cause I didn’t pull the trigger myself.
And I never said people need to repent before they are ministered to. I said that people need to repent before they can find salvation AND before they should be told they are true followers Christ.
For example you should NOT tell Carhart he is a Christian in good standing while he is active in molesting and mutilating and murdering women and children…that is unless you are so PC or liberally minded that you think abortion is just another lifestyle choice Christians can make..lol. If you do then just say so.
If my biggest fault as a Christian is being willing to stop molesters and murderers of children then I am willing to take my chances on getting into heaven. Unlike all you Thomas and Carla and Deluded Lib; should the Lord ever put me in a place where I am witness to such evil’ I will ALWAYS confront molesters and murderers of women and children with whatever means necessary to stop them. I am not the hypocrite here. Perhaps you should look into the mirror.
The man is a hero and I would thank him for his work!
A hero? X sound the buzzer and try again! Maybe a hero to get you out of 18 years of child support
When someone says I love you BUT……..they don’t love you.
There is a HUGE difference between defending myself and my family using whatever force I deem necessary. It is called self defense.
You know this. But you can pretend to justify your hatred and murderous rage for Leroy and your longing to kill him all you would like. The person that killed George Tiller? He ACTED out what you are describing. He took ACTION on his thoughts and feelings. And THAT is called premeditated murder.
This isn’t about me looking in the mirror. It is about you and saying that you would call Carhart a baby killer and wanting to kill him.
Taking your chances on getting into heaven? I got chills when I read that.
Your heart is hard truthseeker.
“Longing to kill him..”
Carla,
You should reread my post from May 3rd at 10:03. You either got caught up in your emotions or chose to ignore it.
“There is a HUGE difference between defending myself and my family using whatever force I deem necessary. It is called self defense.”
But you said killing is hypocritical cause Jesus said you should love your enemies.
I never said killing is hypocritical.
Nice try to turn the focus on me though.
Let’s both keep seeking TRUTH, TRUTHSEEKER.
I loved what my buddy and retired doctor Jim said….”Anyone who would kill a baby doesnt deserve the title of doctor EVER”!
The parable Jesus told about the Prodigal Son is well known. But reading Luke 15:11-32, it is more than just a son who ran off, but the older son and his reaction to the acceptance of the younger son.
How do you think a scene from this story would have happened? What if, while the younger brother was feeding pigs, his older brother was on a business trip for his father. While on the trip, meeting with important people, he recognizes his younger brother even through the mud. Would he:
1) Ignore his brother (especially in front of important people)
2) Yell at his brother for how poorly he treated his father
3) Embrace his brother, tell him that his father misses him, and encourage him to come back
How would your react?
Also, read Matthew 25:31-46.
Yes Carla, and you don’t have to look to far to find the truth about a monster like Carhart.
I’m jumping in because I saw a discussion of faith between Reality and a few others above and I just had to contribute because Reality has been saying a few things that really bother me, but I understand where he/she is coming from because I have MANY atheist friends who do not understand how I could be a grad student in science and believe in God.
First off, it’s true. There are MANY Christians out there who aren’t interested in understanding the world around them and fill their gaps in knowledge with “God did it!”. However, there are also many atheists/agnostics/etc out there who have no interest in learning about the world around them, for other reasons. I think these people have one thing in common … they lack curiosity and they are lazy. Just because you have a certain worldview, doesn’t mean you are going to want to learn about the world around you.
On the other hand, there are many atheists who are curious and interested in finding ways to explain the physical world using mathematics, logic, and data. There are many Christians who are interested in doing the exact same thing. None of those Christian scientists shrug their shoulders and say “God did it, therefore I’m not interested in studying it.” They say, “God did it, and I want to learn as much about His world as I can.”
That, btw, is the exact reason I went into science. Because God made the world around me, He gave us reason, and so it MUST be possible to understand the world around me using reason. That was one of the main motivators behind many of the early Christian scientists (and no, I wasn’t told this by a priest or a pastor, but by a professor who studies the development of the Creationist movement). Certainly after many people realized that Genesis was not literally true, a lot of Christians went off the deep end … but not all of us did!
Anyway, I just want people to realize that not all Christians use a God of the Gaps fallacy when learning about the world. Many Christians want to understand the world around them – deeply understand it – because they love God and love His creation. They don’t become scientists and intellectuals in spite of their faith … they become scientists and intellectuals BECAUSE of their faith. It IS possible to be a Christian and to also be a scientist, without having those two aspects of yourself contradict. Certainly there are some branches of Christianity that do not mix well with science, but Christianity is VERY diverse, and so lumping all Christians with the creation movement is dishonest at best.