TLC censors Duggar pro-life t-shirt
Stand True’s Bryan Kemper was really looking forward to watching this weeks’s episode of 19 Kids and Counting onTLC after one of his pro-life t-shirts made an appearance in last week’s show…
Kemper hoped to spot another of his t-shirts since the entire family owns one….
Kemper met Jessa Duggar at the 2013 Students for Life of America conference and gave her one of his t-shirts, which led to a very large order from the rest of the clan.
In fact, a photo of Jessa with fiancé Ben Seewald wearing his pro-life t-shirt has been popping up all over the Internet in the wake of Jessa daring to publicly reflect on the topic of abortion after going through the Holocaust Museum a couple weeks ago.
But Kemper was shocked when viewing the October 2 19 Kids and Counting episode to see one of his pro-life t-shirts all right, but with the message, “I survived Roe vs. Wade/Roe vs. Wade will not survive me,” blurred out. Click to enlarge…
Since the same message was allowed on the previous episode without being censored, one has to conclude there were complaints, or perhaps a pro-abortion editor went rogue.
As if it’s a secret that the Duggars are pro-life? Having 19 children certainly makes that a nonrevelation.
As if anyone watching the show isn’t to expect Duggar family values to shine through?
I can’t imagine the Duggars were told about this pro-life censorship by TLC, because I can’t imagine they would stand for it.
Here’s hoping Michelle and Jim Bob put a quick stop to this flagrant attempt to suppress the message that abortion is wrong and that this generation intends to stop it.
[tweet_box]Here’s hoping @DuggarFam puts a quick stop to @TLC’s flagrant attempt to censor the #prolife msg.[/tweet_box]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
A clean worded pro-life statement is considered as obscenity by much of our perverse society while real obscenity gets more acceptance and more defenders.
all the disgusting, sin based reality shows go uncensored – this is about respecting life! how is that offensive?
It’s His Light, His Truth, shining in the darkness.
It exposes their evil ways and pricks their calloused consciences.
They cover up the truth, so they can continue in their evil ways, shedding innocent blood, unhindered, until their time runs out and their eternal destiny is fixed.
satan will claim them as his own.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It’s so tragic…because the price has been paid for them to be forgiven and restored to Father God.
Lord have mercy.
Over at Duck Dynasty, A&E bleeped out some harmless expletives, just to make it seem like our rustic heroes were swearing profanities.
This is even more effective for TLC… censoring the pro-life message, and giving the impression that the Duggar teens are wearing offensive and rebellious images instead.
Sure beats the I HAD AN ABORTION t shirts.
“As if anyone watching the show isn’t to expect Duggar family values to shine through?”
For all the worrying about shirts, slogans, censorship, ducks, dynasties, etc., it makes me truly nauseous to see how the Duggar family operates, and what is being done to the kids there.
God forbid there be more families run like that. God grant the kids an escape.
The Duggar kids are very happy. They rest in the comfort of knowing that their parents love them and care deeply for them.
That is why the kids accept the discipline so well. They see that the epidemic rebellion of the world around them isn’t making anyone happier than they are.
But to the rest of the insane world, the Duggars look odd for being sane.
Earth to TLC,
We have something in this country called free speech.
Amen Marie.
Hi Del,
These are children whose lives are rigidly controlled from birth. The young women are married off to husbands of Daddy D’s choosing after spending their childhood and teen years doing “women’s work”. I seriously question his judgment in marrying off Jessa to some kid barely out of high school. I’m sure you agree a kid that age is not ready for the responsibility of a wife and family.
I wonder if Jana is thrilled with being a 24 year old household drudge and nanny who can’t leave the house without parental permission and can only hope daddy finds her a husband.
Mary–one of my friend’s parents got married right out of high school. They’re still together 40 years later. They bought a house in their 20’s and raised 4 kids. They weren’t even college educated but they each started businesses and did just fine.
Just because he is out of high school doesn’t mean much. There are some kids “right out of high school” who’ve run and WON an office in government! Then there are 30 year olds still living in their moms’ basements.
in this day and age when girls get abortions behind their parents’ backs and where kids openly rebel and talk down to their parents I think it is so refreshing that the Duggar children respect their parents and ask for their wise counsel concerning life altering decisions such as marriage. Nothing weird about it! Well…if you’re comparing to our dysfunctional society then yes, I guess it is weird. A family that makes their children do chores? A family that doesn’t cater to their child’s every whim and raise the child to think the universe revolves around THEM? Weird.
And “rigidly controlled”? The kids are running around barefoot laughing and playing and getting dirty like kids should! Looks like they are having a wonderful childhood!
Hi Sydney M,
Yes, people out of high school can accomplish much. My father never finished high school yet he ran a successful business. Does that mean we should encourage people not to finish high school…or get married as teenagers?
Sydney, do you see these children engage in any activities not controlled by their parents? They are physically and socially isolated. Do the girls have choices other than being married off to a man of daddy’s choosing? Wasn’t I right that Jill would never become a nurse? Did anyone really think Daddy D would sit still for Jill attending college and becoming financially independent? Can they take trips, mom and dad do, without daddy hovering over them? They are grown women. The chief nanny and household drudge can’t even leave without parental permission, even though she’s a 24 year old woman! Oh, they did let her out to attend some retreat in a cabin with a bunch of other women. Big of them.
I have stated time and again that chores are one thing, parental responsibilities another.
I am not a fan of this show but censoring the T shirts was stupid. But Roe is one of the sacred canons of lib so what do you expect?
Mary and Marie I agree with you about this family. People think they are perfect, but these “reality” shows are carefully scripted. No one knows what happens when the lights go out. The Duggars are millionaires but in reality many of these “Quiver full” families live in poverty.
I want my daughter to be all she can be, whether she wants to be a stay at home mom or pursue a career. I would never try to thwart her dreams in any way. I also think that every woman should have the ability to support herself financially. I never ever dreamed that after twenty years I would be divorced. I don’t make much but I can take care of myself.
My daughter Sam is a devout Christian (much more so than me) and she says she just “doesn’t get” the show. Either do I. What is heroic about being pregnant for twenty years and treating your daughters like servants? Sam and her husband want to delay starting a family until they are on better financial footing. I see nothing sinful or ungodly about this.
I have been on this site for awhile and most of you know that I do not play the race card. But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.
“But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.”
I agree, phillymiss.
Praxedes is right! :)
Phillymiss – indeed, if the Duggars were black or Latino it would be a whole different deal.
There have been big threads right here on Jill’s site about the Duggars – and some of the stuff is undeniably bad – their continuing support of, and use of the productions of, Bill Gothard and his “Advanced Training Institute,” for one thing.
Gothard finally resigned, after over 35 women said he’d sexually harassed them. There comes a time when Jim Bob needs to say, “Uh, maybe I was wrong about this guy….” But no, he can’t even do that.
The Duggars also support Michael and Debi Pearl, authors of ‘To Train Up a Child,’ etc. Any rational person will see that this is lunacy.
Aside from the demonstrably nutty and delusional stuff, there is the fact that within such a large group of kids, there will be several for whom the extreme regimentation and cult-like running of the household will be unsuitable, period.
We only see a very carefully scripted and exceedingly controlled version of events around the Duggars. And even then, things show through from time to time.
When Josh’s individuality was starting to come through, he was sent to Gothard’s “ALERT Academy,” to have that part of his spirit beaten out of him, at least mentally and emotionally. He came home and it was like he was drugged; forever to only follow what his dad decreed.
20-something people are not allowed to hold hands with their boyfriends or girlfriends? Not allowed to text them unless Jim Bob is copied on the text? Good grief….
Prax and phillymiss,
I really don’t like making a racial issue out of anything and nothing. This isn’t about race. I wouldn’t care if the Duggars were purple, its their treatment of their children, excellent post Doug, that I have a problem with.
Good post Doug. I believe parents should give their children guidance when it comes to dating but reading a twenty year olds texts? That’s ludicrous.
Doug, 1:28PM
I must say I am bitterly disappointed to see you sucker for this racial claptrap. Why this has even been turned into a racial issue is beyond me.
In case you haven’t noticed, plenty of criticism is heaped on them, and that includes by you and me. If the Duggars were black or Latino, they could scream “racism” every time someone criticizes them, an advantage they don’t have being white.
I’m curious phillymiss,
Since you raised this issue. Is your vehement criticism of the Duggars racially motivated?
Mary if you are trying to imply that I am racist you seem to forget that I was married to a white man for twenty years and have two mixed children.
If there was a show called “The Garcias” about a family of conservative hardworking Mexican farmers with 19 kids who treated their daughters like servants, do you the religious right would support it?
Mary: I must say I am bitterly disappointed to see you sucker for this racial claptrap. Why this has even been turned into a racial issue is beyond me.
Holy Crow, Mary, it’s not a racial issue, but I do agree with what Phillymiss said:
But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.
I don’t see that there is much arguing with that. It would make a heck of a difference.
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In case you haven’t noticed, plenty of criticism is heaped on them, and that includes by you and me. If the Duggars were black or Latino, they could scream “racism” every time someone criticizes them, an advantage they don’t have being white.
Indeed, the Duggars have their critics, and some people respond to that with what amounts to, basically, “They are being criticized because they are Christian…” If the Duggars can’t scream “racism,” then they can yell “We are being persecuted for our beliefs…” or some such. I think that we will simply have such, regardless of the exact orientation of the individual or group in question; i.e. it’s always gonna be somethin….
On the Duggars, I am not saying, “They are evil.” And some of the kids may be okay with the whole deal. But in no way can they all be, and if not consciously a nasty bugger, then I think Jim Bob is so willfully blind to a good number of things that he tends toward a Rusty Yates type of guy.
Hi phillymiss,
You raised this issue, not me, and honestly it enrages me.
Have I ever suggested your opinion of the Duggars is motivated by racism? Do I suggest the overall criticism of the Duggars is? The answer is NO!
Do I think the “Religious Right” would support the Garcias? I don’t know that they wouldn’t. I don’t know that the “Religious Right” are such big fans of the Duggars.
How would Latino and black families be treated any worse or more viciously than the Duggars and why would it be any more motivated by racism?
Since you raised this issue please give us some examples.
Yes Doug, bitterly disappointed. Because I expect so much better from you.
Tell us exactly the difference it would make if the Duggars were black or Latino.
I am no fan of the Duggars as you know. The criticism is not of their faith per se, its certain aspects of their lifestyle. My condemnation of Jim Bob’s controlling has nothing to do with his faith, or his race. People of no faith and every race are controllers. Do the Duggars yell they are persecuted because of their faith? If they do does that mean your and my criticism is based on their faith, or their actions? Does it cause you or anyone to withhold their criticism. Not from what I see on the Internet.
This whining about how a non white family would supposedly be treated so differently is just that…whining. I suspect they would be subject to a lot less criticism as people would be afraid to be accused of racism. Or would want to show their tolerance and cultural sensitivity.
No phillymiss,
I don’t accuse you of being racist. I accuse you of making a racial issue out of anything and nothing. Why would criticism of the Garcias be anymore racially motivated than criticism of the Duggars?
There is no Constitutional right to speech on TV. They can infringe, and frequently do on other messages and ads. They regular blur out none offensive words like Nike and Addidas on hats and shirts. If these shirts are making Kemper money in a for profit endeavor, he is just being treated like everyone else. The Duggars won’t do anything because unlike the Duck Dynasty people they are dependent on TLC. I would love to see a boycott as I loathe shows who exploit minor children for profit, and especially where people who don’t even parent their own children are glorified. There hasn’t been anything worth watching on TLC in years. All people learn is have a bunch of kids, or don’t know you are pregnant and you get on TV. Maybe if the Duggars walk away Mom and Dad will actually start caring for their own kids and some of the children can learn actual life skills besides how to kiss up to dad so he will find you a husband and let you “court” a boy. No man should be that involved in an adult daughter’s life. I think one son has a business but the only reason the oldest has a job is because Daddy bought him car lots to manage and then an organization wanted him for his last name. When they raise a kid who can support themselves I will be impressed. Of course the small kids are happy. They don’t have to raise another generation.
Tenn2,
I agree with much of what you say. That’s my point. Your remarks are not based on their religion or race, its their lifestyle and their treatment of their children. That’s the only issue. Whether they are white, black, brown, or purple isn’t the point.
I have seen some pretty obscene messages displayed on t-shirts on TV, freedom of speech, right? The Duggars are not displaying a brand name.
I thinks it great that Josh and Anna got away from the prison. Hopefully in Washington DC they’ll learn there’s a world out there not controlled by daddy.
Mary,
Sorry, new phone. That was supposed to be freedom of speech applies to the government, not network TV shows, which are about ratings and profit. If the “free speech” applied everywhere, this site would run ads for abortion clinic. The government can’t censor the Duggars but a TV network sure can.
Mary,
Freebie echo applies to the government, not network TV shows, which are about ratings and profit. If the “free speech” applied everywhere, this site would run ads for abortion clinic. The government can’t censor the Duggars but a TV network sure can.
Also, can anybody direct me to a site that says whether or not Kemper ‘ s company is for profit or not for profit. I have been to his site and it doesn’t say.
Tenn2,
You have the right to dictate what will not be discussed in your home. If I don’t like it, I can leave.
The Duggars are expressing an opinion TLC doesn’t like. Why TLC suddenly has an issue with this is anyone’s guess since the message was uncensored on a previous episode. The Duggars have an option: they can tell TLC to go do the anatomically impossible. That just might make TLC whistle a different tune. Money does talk.
Mary,
My guess is they had complaints from viewers or advertisers. That, or they found out Kemper ‘ s company was for profit. Frankly, the whole lot needs to be off TV so the parents can take care of these many kids they produced. They have dumped the raising on the older girls while giving them no choice. No decent schooling. The girls had to help the small kids with “their little phonics lessons” and music practice before they were even legal adults. Having a bunch of kids that you don’t raise is nothing to be proud of. Dumping kids on your teen and early 20s daughters simply because Mom Duggar can get pregnant isn’t prolife. It is selfish. Giving the kids up for adoption would have been best, rather than dumping them on the older daughters. Aside from that, I don’t think being fertile is accomplishment. It is biology. When all 19 are raised to be independent adults, I will be impressed. Until then, all they have accomplished is having a pack of children they aren’t raising and adult daughters who have no real world skills other than how to worship a man and do laundry for their siblings. Maybe some of them don’t want to be married? What if one is gay or infertile? What if one of those girls wants a job working in the real world ready than being married off like a prize horse by Daddy Duggar? The parents don’t even know their own kids because there are so many and the Perls philosophy says to beat a kid until they are happy. The Duggars aren’t prolife, they are “look at how many kids I have.” Why prolifers worship them is beyond me.
Mary,
The Duggars bare free to walk. I don’t watch anything on TLC because it glorifies silly stuff. What I wonder is why conservatives don’t boycott them for shows about having 4 or 5 wives. As I have said, I don’t watch shows that pimp out minor children and have a cult – like atmosphere for adult children. The Duggars are only millionaires because of TLC. They can fuss and moan, but TLC can make it without them by playing reruns and other similar shows. The Duggars will have to get jobs.
Mary, I do agree there is obscene stuff out in public. On TV, most shirts are blurred if they have any sort of for profit message. It may just be that with the elections in many states TLC doesn’t want to be accused of “taking sides.” The Duggars are free to leave, advertisers are free to leave, Kemper is free to get his panties in wad because his shirts didn’t get free ads. He can always pay for them, or a Christian network can pick up the Duggars. I have yet, after 2 hours of research to figure out if Kemper ‘ s company is for or non profit. That Makes A difference. I’m not sure if he paid to advertise but if not, and his company is for profit, he has no complaint. I would be thrilled if TLC just went off the air but then like everything, I can just turn the channel. Just like people offended by lewd shows and shirts can turn off the TV, have no TV, only used tightly controlled streaming like Netflix. However, I do wonder about all these people who know about all these lewd shows. I know about the Duggars from watching years ago and Internet links, which is not much.
Mary: Yes Doug, bitterly disappointed. Because I expect so much better from you.
Well, Phillymiss is right, and I agreed with her, Mary. It’s not saying, “This is a racial issue,” it’s saying that if the Duggars were non-white then it would be, to a much larger extent. Who, rationally, can argue with that?
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Tell us exactly the difference it would make if the Duggars were black or Latino.
In the US, the Christian Right – which is what Phillymiss mentioned – is heavily Caucasian, and for many of those individuals, race is a factor. If we are talking 19 or 20 kids in a family, it most definitely would be.
Hi Tenn2
We agree on just about everything including:
TLC does not have to censor them, that this decision was made for reasons unknown to us.
If the Duggars feel strongly about their convictions, they are free to leave.
Well Doug,
If the argument is so rational, then give some specific examples as to how a black or brown Duggar family would be more viciously attacked than the white Duggar family.
So your and phillymiss’ argument is based on personal bias. The assumption that a “heavily Caucasian” group or organization must be racially biased and that race is a factor. You know this for a fact..how? What if I was to make assumptions as to the racial attitudes of a black or Latino religious group? They must think this way or that, I mean they ARE black and Latino. What might you accuse me of?
Doug, maybe you need to listen a little more closely to yourself before suggesting others may have a racial bias.
Mary: If the argument is so rational, then give some specific examples as to how a black or brown Duggar family would be more viciously attacked than the white Duggar family.
Just what Phillymiss said – there would be a lot more hateful things said about them. Some of the basic “pro-life” group would have a different attitude, just as they do with gay people versus non-gay.
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So your and phillymiss’ argument is based on personal bias.
It’s based on common knowledge and what we have seen demonstrated plenty of times.
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The assumption that a “heavily Caucasian” group or organization must be racially biased and that race is a factor. You know this for a fact..how?
You said that, not me. My point is that with regard to the specific group under consideration here, Phillymiss is right, and Praxedes, I, and I would think most people here realize that. This is not saying anything about all Caucasian groups in general.
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What if I was to make assumptions as to the racial attitudes of a black or Latino religious group? They must think this way or that, I mean they ARE black and Latino. What might you accuse me of?
Well, what group do you mean? Some think certain ways, some think other ways.
Doug,
Exactly what would be said and how do you know for a fact it would be said? What hasn’t been said about the Duggars because they are white?
The “common knowledge” that all people of a certain race and/or religion will all think the same. Kind of sounds like bigotry Doug.
No my friend, you used the term “heavily Caucasian” and that for many of these individuals, race is an issue. Can you tell me how many and on what, other than “common knowledge”, aka bigotry, do you base this claim on.
I agree Doug, its “common knowledge” that black and Latino people are inclined to think a certain way. I just need to keep it straight as to how exactly each group is inclined to think.(sarcasm alert)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OfXVSSQQg
Prax,
Definitely sounds like SNL. My favorite is “Obama” with the “Chinese Premiere” and the “translator”. Definitely one of their best and most clever skits.
Also, be a little wary of self bashing. Its a ploy to convince people they are solely responsible for every evil and is a tactic often employed by tyrants and dictators to convince people of such. People will acknowledge they “deserve” the hatred of their fellow citizens for their “sins”.
“The uploader has not made this video available in your country”
:(
Hi Mary, I was raised and live in a predominately white community and can only comment based on what I’ve seen and heard around me. I only know the comments I would hear from some white people if the Duggar family was black or Latino.
I had been talking with a white friend today about this thread. He is the one who pointed out the SNL skit to me and I totally get what you are saying about self-bashing ploys, btw.
I told my friend that I wished that there wasn’t such a division between people of different races(at this point, no race is more responsible than any other race of causing divisions imo). I mentioned that we are all eventually going to be just one big race anyway.
His comment, “I know but why can’t all of us just be white?”
We humans are a funny lot.
Hi Prax,
I spent my childhood in more diversity than most people will ever see in a lifetime. Diversity is nothing new. Only back then if you mentioned diversity no one would know what you’re talking about. I’ve learned that the problem does not lie in our differences, but in forever making an issue of them. Someone should tell the “experts” in diversity about my childhood observation. “Expertise” in this area is something I find totally laughable. They’d be forced to get real jobs.
BTW I heard people of every racial, ethnic, and religious background express opinions about those “different” from them as well, and sometimes the “different” person was me!
I believe in race…the human race. As I said Prax the problem does not lie in our differences, but rather making an issue of them. That’s is why I was so angry at the original comment. It only promotes divisiveness, animosity and victimhood. If someone can show me how being white has spared the Duggars in any way or how their being non white would make things worse for them, then they will convince me.
Its my opinion that the fact they are white and Christian makes it all the more acceptable, even politically correct, to attack them.
Tenn2, when have the Duggars “fussed or moaned”? I’ve read their books and watched their TV shows, but I have not heard them fuss or moan about anything.
My life is far different from theirs, except that I am a Christian and my children have not been educated in public schools.
But I do not judge or make hateful comments about them. They do not judge others who don’t live like they do, so I see no reason (or excuse) to judge their lifestyle. I am frankly shocked at some of the horrible, uninformed condemnations here.
“If someone can show me how being white has spared the Duggars in any way or how their being non white would make things worse for them, then they will convince me.
Its my opinion that the fact they are white and Christian makes it all the more acceptable, even politically correct, to attack them.”
AMEN.
“But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.”
This is such a hate-full statement. I am appalled.
(False) assumptions have been made here. I’m going to assume that “Christian Right” means “Bible-believing Christian” here. If others have a different definition, feel free to elaborate.
1) False assumption #1: That Bible-believing Christians are racist — do not accept people of varying skin colors.
Truth #1: Bible-believing Christians believe that every person is made in God’s image, regardless of skin color. This includes ALL people, not just African-Americans and Latinos.
This false assumption is so ignorant! Do those who said and agree with this not know that more than one black family of Bible-believing Christians with more children than the average 2.5 have been featured on the Duggars’ show? They are their friends! One black guy who used to play in the NFL has worked with JimBob and Josh to help them lose weight and get in shape.
2) False assumption #2: That “blacks or Latinos with all those kids” would be viewed more negatively than the Duggars.
Truth #2: First of all, this statement is racist as written because Asians and other cultures are not mentioned.
Secondly, if such a family was free of debt before going on their own show (not depending on the show for their livelihood), if such a family was so joyful and happy in the Lord, if such a family was so closely bonded — Bible-believing Christians would love it!
I follow the Six Little McGhees on TV (a black couple with sextuplets) and I think their children are adorable. And although I was not in favor of the way Jon and Kate treated each other, I also think their children who look Asian are adorable too.
My own family does not live as the Duggars do, but I am not going to join the Hate Duggars Club. I have seen the horribly hateful over-the-top comments at nolongerquivering and other sites.
The Lord tells us in His Word to love one another. If people at those hate sites are Christians, they will have a lot to answer for.
“I’ve learned that the problem does not lie in our differences, but in forever making an issue of them.”
Mary, I’ve learned that people do hate on, abuse, and bully others who are different from themselves and never talking about our differences can cause many, if not more, issues. Broom to Dirt to under Rug is not the answer.
If you don’t believe in making an issue out of what you believe to be non-issues, why are you still commenting?
Hi Claire, did you use “blanket discipline” with your babies?
I did not use “blanket discipline” with my children. Have you read the Duggars’ book where Michelle tells how she did it?
No, I have not read the Duggars’ book. Could you fill me in on what she said?
I would not want to try. It would be far better if you read it for yourself. I’ve checked out their books at a local library, haven’t had to buy them.
Claire, do you agree with how Michelle says she did the blanket thing in the book?
First of all, she did not do that when they were babies. They were older. Secondly, she did not do it the way I’ve seen it described at online sites.
As I said, you would need to read what she said about it, for yourself. I don’t want to sway you one way or the other.
My question was whether or not you agree with how Michelle said she did the blanket thing in the book.
Don’t worry about swaying me on this topic. I oppose any physical violence unless you feel your own or someone else’s physical well-being is in danger.
Are you allowed to have an opinion on how Michelle did “it”? If so, I might be able to sway you one way and not the other.
Prax,
Yes I am aware people hate and abuse. My childhood was hardly idyllic and the schools I went to also had bullies and abusers, and they consisted of every race.
Yes we can talk about our differences. Unless one is completely stupid, it is apparent we are all different. I like the comment made by singer Stevie Wonder when asked about his blindness. To paraphrase: My blindness is a gift from God. This way I judge people for who they truly are, not how they happen to look to me.
If only we were all so blind.
I am not “making an issue of a non issue”. I feel this comment was a definite issue and said so.
Hi Claire,
You make excellent points concerning Christians and their assumed racism. Thank you. As is so typical, those who decry the “bigotry” and “racism” of others are usually the ones most oblivious to their own.
While I am NOT a fan of the Duggar parents, I have no issue with the children, this is NOT a racial issue and should not be turned into one.
Mary: Exactly what would be said and how do you know for a fact it would be said? What hasn’t been said about the Duggars because they are white?
As Phillymiss noted, from pro-lifers, there would be quite a bit different response if the Duggars were not white. What hasn’t been said? Well, the derogatory/pejorative/’hate speech’ type stuff we would see if they were not white.
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The “common knowledge” that all people of a certain race and/or religion will all think the same. Kind of sounds like bigotry Doug.
Well, Mary, that’s you, not me. I didn’t generalize that way. Meanwhile, what Phillymiss said is evidently true, and I and Praxedes – and I think, most people, realize it.
No different from asking, “Is it going to make a difference if pro-lifers are talking about gay people or non-gay people?” I submit that it would be silly (and self-evidently wrong) to maintain that it makes no difference. Same for the issue of race.
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No my friend, you used the term “heavily Caucasian” and that for many of these individuals, race is an issue. Can you tell me how many and on what, other than “common knowledge”, aka bigotry, do you base this claim on.
Mary, you can’t deny that ‘pro-life’ is heavily Caucasian.
Now, you asked, Tell us exactly the difference it would make if the Duggars were black or Latino.
The answer is that that pro-lifers as a whole group will be affected by those racial differences. Not (of course) that every single individual will, but as an entire group, there is no denying it, just as there is no denying that sexual orientation will make a difference.
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I agree Doug, its “common knowledge” that black and Latino people are inclined to think a certain way. I just need to keep it straight as to how exactly each group is inclined to think.(sarcasm alert)
Mary, if you want to generalize about the groups as a whole, then some truthful generalizations can be made. Beyond that, though – and pertaining to what Phillymiss said, then there are *most certainly* some generalizations that can be made, and the obvious truth of what Phillymiss said is right there.
If, for pro-lifers, you don’t think that gay or not makes a difference, then I just have to say you are wrong.
Same for the Duggars, and if they were Black or Latino.
Mary: While I am NOT a fan of the Duggar parents, I have no issue with the children, this is NOT a racial issue and should not be turned into one.
Mary, all along here I’ve been surprised about the vehemence of your replies.
I really do not see how any of this is “making it a racial issue.”
Phillymiss was not doing that; she was just noting that it *would be,* somewhat, if the Duggars were a different “race.” It would make a difference, and who, really, can deny that?
If one of pro-life’s “darlings” turned out to be gay, there too, it would make a difference. Same deal.
The way Michelle described the way she trained her children in her book(s), I did not have a problem with it. Please be sure to read what she actually said and not assume that what is said about it online applies to her. Many false assumptions have been made about the Duggars, usually stemming from ignorance. Sometimes from malice.
As Phillymiss noted, from pro-lifers, there would be quite a bit different response if the Duggars were not white. What hasn’t been said? Well, the derogatory/pejorative/’hate speech’ type stuff we would see if they were not white.
Doug, I totally disagree with you. I’ve known many Christians in many churches during my lifetime (have lived all over the country), and I don’t know even one whose view would be affected by a family’s race. I know a number of families IRL who are not white, have many children, and are strong Christians.
Friends in my neighborhood are black, have 12 children, are Christian and they teach their children at home. They’re not so different from the Duggars except in minor ways (mainly dress). They attend my integrated church and are fully accepted.
Frankly, your speech here sounds derogatory toward white people, assuming the worst of them. Have you thought of that? And are you really completely ignorant of the websites which exist to hate on the Duggars? Their skin color obviously affords them no immunity, as you erroneously suppose.
Doug, I can categorically deny that ‘pro-life’ is heavily Caucasian.
I have worked in crisis pregnancy centers for a couple of decades. People of all races have crossed my path, both as clients and as co-workers.
To break it down by race (something that’s never occurred to me before), most co-workers have been black. There have been at least as many Latino co-workers as white people. Some of our most passionate supporters have been native Americans. We rarely see Asians as clients or co-workers.
My question for you is: Why do you make “pro-life” a racial issue? It isn’t. It is an issue of life and death.
“Please be sure to read what she actually said and not assume that what is said about it online applies to her.”
Claire, Why don’t you just tell me what she actually said? Why are you so insistent that I get a book from the library? You seem very guarded and defensive imo. Really not sure what the big deal is if you support “it”.
To be sure, what I have found online so far on this topic, I don’t agree with at all.
Not guarded or defensive at all. I just think it’s important that you actually read what Michelle Duggar actually said. There is no way I can quote her exactly as she wrote it.
I also do not agree with what I’ve read online on this topic. It is very different from what she wrote. She has been falsely accused and judged and condemned on a number of websites.
I cannot believe that those who have posted such hostile statements have taken the time to read what she actually said. If they have, they’re very dishonest.
Doug,
Specific answers please, not vague generalities. Exactly how has being white spared the Duggars and how would a non white Duggar family be treated any worse?
So if I suggested all people of a certain race, religion, or ethnicity think and act exactly the same you wouldn’t consider this bigotry? As for gay people, I don’t quite understand the point you are making, I have repeatedly stated my views on gay people, which a very similar to phillymiss’, none of which are negative. So all PL people do not share similar views.
You were discussing the “Christian Right” as being “heavily Caucasian”, not the PL movement. We consist of people of all faiths and no faiths, and yes gay and non white people. We are not part of the “Christian Right” though some of our members may be. Our members may also be atheist, Buddhist, agnostic(me), Jewish, or any other belief there is. There is a good variety on Jill’s blog alone.
Again Doug, if phillymiss is right, then please, examples and sources. You should have no trouble providing them. You continue to resort only to generalities and personal bigotry.
“There is no way I can quote her exactly as she wrote it.”
Fair enough, Claire. I thought you had the book but I should know by now how assuming can lead to troubles. I will try to track the book down and read it for myself.
Being falsely accused of what you have not done nor said is not a cake walk for sure.
Okay, I found a book review online written by someone who read the book and commented on Michelle’s blanket training. The reader says “it” is based on a reward system, with no spankings but rather lots of praise and enthusiasm. If this is the case, my sincere apologies to you Claire. Thanks so much for sticking up for Michelle!
I also learned about the swimsuits the girls/young women wear. The swimsuits cover up more than some teen girls wear to school, in Wisconsin, in the winter!
wholesomewear.com
“I have no issue with the children”
Will you have issues with the children if they choose to live similar to the way they were raised?
If the boys become tyrannical controllers like their father and the girls become totally self absorbed pregnancy junkies like their mother. Yes. As of now they have no say in their lives.
I think there’s hope for Josh and Anna. At least they’re away from that prison and on their own in another city.
Doug, 12:06am
Injecting race into this discussion as phillymiss did is turning this into a racial issue. I couldn’t agree more, it never was and is not now a racial issue.
Claire brings up a good point. Why would just blacks and Latinos be targets? Why not Asians? How about Native Americans? What about Arab Americans, Muslim and Jewish Americans? Why would no one pick on them, or would they? More or less so than blacks and Latinos… or whites?
Can you name some “darlings” of the PL movement?
You might find the following website informative and will hopefully put one of your biases to rest.
http://www.plagal.org/
Praxedes, did you forget that I had said that I did not buy the book, but checked it out at a local library? :-)
I’m so glad that you found that honest book review online – that’s very refreshing.
As with anything, one’s view of the Duggar parents is in the eye of the beholder. I do not have a negative view of JimBob or Michelle.
I’ve watched their show and read their books. Even though they do not live as others do, I’ve never once detected a note of judgment or condemnation in their view of others. So I don’t see a reason to judge or condemn them.
If/when Doug comes back, I hope he will answer my sincere question: Why does he make “pro-life” a racial issue? It isn’t. It is an issue of life and death.
And I hope he will answer your question too, Mary: Can he name some “darlings” of the PL movement?
Mary: Specific answers please, not vague generalities. Exactly how has being white spared the Duggars and how would a non white Duggar family be treated any worse?
Here is what Phillymiss said: “But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.”
The logic here is unassailable. If racism was not an issue, then this would not be true, but of course racism is an issue – and this includes many people in the ‘Christian Right’ – and the difference that Phillymiss noted is operative.
The specific answer is that of course it would make a big difference. Things would be said, based on their race, that are not being said, now, in that kind of quantity. If Jim Bob came out as gay, then the same principle applies – (and I know that’s fairly far-fetched :P) – but witness the difference that gay or not makes right here on Jill’s board.
I am not saying that everybody in the Christian Right thinks any certain way. However, I don’t think the truth of what Phillymiss said is much debatable at all. It does not hinge on any “uniformity” in the Christian Right; rather, all that’s needed is a sufficient amount of differing perceptions with respect to big white families and big families that are black or latino.
To anyone who disagrees with Phillymiss’s statement, do you really think it would not make a difference if the Duggars were Black or Latino?
_____
So if I suggested all people of a certain race, religion, or ethnicity think and act exactly the same you wouldn’t consider this bigotry?
It would depend, Mary. If I held that same opinion, then no, of course I wouldn’t say it’s bigotry. I don’t think it’s really a question of “bigotry/not bigotry” there, either. If I disagreed with you, then I’d say you were generalizing from the particular, a logical fallacy.
But nobody is going to make that claim, in any rational manner, and nobody has made that claim in this thread. It’s not that “all people” of *any* group would have to think or act a certain way. All that’s needed is for the Duggars to be treated somewhat differently because they are White, and not Black or Latino.
Again, do you seriously think it does not make a difference, that the Duggars are White, and not Black or Latino?
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As for gay people, I don’t quite understand the point you are making, I have repeatedly stated my views on gay people, which a very similar to phillymiss’, none of which are negative. So all PL people do not share similar views.
So what? Neither the truth of what Phillymiss said, nor anything I have said, depends on that.
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You were discussing the “Christian Right” as being “heavily Caucasian”, not the PL movement. We consist of people of all faiths and no faiths, and yes gay and non white people. We are not part of the “Christian Right” though some of our members may be. Our members may also be atheist, Buddhist, agnostic(me), Jewish, or any other belief there is. There is a good variety on Jill’s blog alone.
Well, again – Phillymiss’s statement specifically mentioned the Christian Right.
*If* we are going to generalize about pro-lifers on Jill’s board, then that is of course a different thing, as the non-Christian Right members (as you said) change things somewhat.
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Injecting race into this discussion as phillymiss did is turning this into a racial issue. I couldn’t agree more, it never was and is not now a racial issue.
Mary, I agree with your second sentence. Yeah, not a racial issue now. But Phillymiss didn’t “turn it into a racial issue,” she just – absolutely correctly, IMO – points out that if the Duggars were Black or Latino, then *it would be much more of a racial issue.*
Do you really disagree with that?
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Claire brings up a good point. Why would just blacks and Latinos be targets? Why not Asians? How about Native Americans? What about Arab Americans, Muslim and Jewish Americans? Why would no one pick on them, or would they? More or less so than blacks and Latinos… or whites?
Nobody ever said that only Blacks or Latinos would be targets, in that way. Muslims – I definitely think that there, the same thing would apply, i.e. there would be much more criticism from certain quarters than is now applied to the non-Muslim Duggars.
Asians – not the target, nearly as much, IMO, in that way. Native Americans, same, and they are not nearly such a prominent group, as far as population – we’re pretty much talking about one percent here – although if the family was being supported by the gov’t then there would be plenty of criticism.
Arabs, if non-Muslim and if that fact was widely known and reflected on the show, I still think the negative perceptions that Islam currently has within some groups would affect things.
Jews – there would be some effect from it.
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Can you name some “darlings” of the PL movement?
Good and fair question. Ryan Bomberger, Lila Rose… There is likely much I don’t know here, but based on what I’ve read right here on Jill’s site, I’d say those two are. Or, God forbid – the Duggars themselves.. :P
Anyway, if Ryan or Lila was gay, then I submit that it would make quite a demonstrable difference to the pro-life community. Not that “everybody” who is pro-life would be affected. But many would be.
Doug, what is your definition of Christian Right? I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a clear-cut definition.
My posts in re phillymiss’s post were about the topic she raised: race. “Muslim” is not a race. There are white Muslims, black Muslims, Arab Muslims. There are also Arab Christians – lots of them.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you that any other race of family like the Duggars would not be accepted by Christians. I can say this firsthand because I actually know non-white Christian families (including Asians) who are Christians, have large families (more than 2.5 children), even homeschool. Not only are they totally accepted in the Christian community, they are valued.
Are you seeking to draw a comparison between race and homosexual behavior ?
Claire: Doug, I can categorically deny that ‘pro-life’ is heavily Caucasian.
Hi Claire. I disagree.
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I have worked in crisis pregnancy centers for a couple of decades. People of all races have crossed my path, both as clients and as co-workers.
Okay, but with all due respect, so what? That in no way represents enough of all of what “pro-life” is to be statistically significant.
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To break it down by race (something that’s never occurred to me before), most co-workers have been black. There have been at least as many Latino co-workers as white people. Some of our most passionate supporters have been native Americans. We rarely see Asians as clients or co-workers.
Okay, so do you think, per the above, that “most pro-lifers are black”? And that within “pro-life” there are as many Latinos as white people”? I bet you don’t.
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My question for you is: Why do you make “pro-life” a racial issue? It isn’t. It is an issue of life and death.
Nobody is making it “a racial issue.”
What Phillymiss said about the Christian Right is correct – it *would be more of a racial issue if the Duggars were Black or Latino.” It ‘would be,’ if things were different. They are not that way now.
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(False) assumptions have been made here. I’m going to assume that “Christian Right” means “Bible-believing Christian” here. If others have a different definition, feel free to elaborate.
1) False assumption #1: That Bible-believing Christians are racist — do not accept people of varying skin colors.
Claire, you are not recognizing the obvious fact that “Bible-believing Christians” are not monolithic or uniform on matters of race.
It would be false to say they all are racist, but nobody is doing that. The error is yours – you are the one that wants to treat it as a totally homogenous group, and it’s simply not.
There are plenty of people among “Bible-believing Christians” that have hateful attitudes about Blacks and Latinos. Do you seriously disagree with that?
I live in Atlanta, and for 30 years have worked all over the US and Canada, all the states, all the Provinces and Territories. We have permanent facilities in Alabama and Oregon, used to have one in Arkansas. I’ve gotten to know the locals pretty well there, and all I can say is that if you do actually disagree, above, then you should meet the same people I have.
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Truth #1: Bible-believing Christians believe that every person is made in God’s image, regardless of skin color. This includes ALL people, not just African-Americans and Latinos.
Regardless of the degree of truth to that, what Phillymiss said is correct, and the two are not mutually exclusive. What they believe is one thing, what they say about (in this case, Blacks and Latinos) is sometimes different.
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This false assumption is so ignorant! Do those who said and agree with this not know that more than one black family of Bible-believing Christians with more children than the average 2.5 have been featured on the Duggars’ show? They are their friends! One black guy who used to play in the NFL has worked with JimBob and Josh to help them lose weight and get in shape.
Claire, non of that really has anything to do with it. Doesn’t affect the truth of what Phillymiss said.
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2) False assumption #2: That “blacks or Latinos with all those kids” would be viewed more negatively than the Duggars.
Truth #2: First of all, this statement is racist as written because Asians and other cultures are not mentioned.
That is just plain silly. “Some people” (in this case, some members of the Christian Right) “are prejudiced against Blacks and Latinos.” The truth of that in no way depends on Asians or other groups being mentioned.
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Secondly, if such a family was free of debt before going on their own show (not depending on the show for their livelihood), if such a family was so joyful and happy in the Lord, if such a family was so closely bonded — Bible-believing Christians would love it!
Many would, sure. But again, that does not negate the truth of what Phillymiss said. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Doug, what is your definition of Christian Right? I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a clear-cut definition.
Claire, Protestants and Catholics that are Evangelical – I guess that’s how I’d put it. Also, I see it as a political entity, too – and that could be broader than with just the “Evangelical” aspect.
In the end, here, I say it’s what Phillymiss meant, as she’s the one who stated it.
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My posts in re phillymiss’s post were about the topic she raised: race. “Muslim” is not a race. There are white Muslims, black Muslims, Arab Muslims. There are also Arab Christians – lots of them.
Mary asked about them.
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I wholeheartedly disagree with you that any other race of family like the Duggars would not be accepted by Christians. I can say this firsthand because I actually know non-white Christian families (including Asians) who are Christians, have large families (more than 2.5 children), even homeschool. Not only are they totally accepted in the Christian community, they are valued.
Ahem – I did not say that they “would not be accepted by Christians.” That is of course not true. That does not negate the truth of what Phillymiss said, nor anything I have said in this thread, either.
Claire, if you think that nobody in the Christian Right is prejudiced against Blacks and Latinos, then you are I are just gonna have to disagree about that.
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Are you seeking to draw a comparison between race and homosexual behavior?
No, no, lawd no… :: laughing… :: I was talking to Mary:
Mary: The “common knowledge” that all people of a certain race and/or religion will all think the same. Kind of sounds like bigotry Doug.
Doug: “Well, Mary, that’s you, not me. I didn’t generalize that way. Meanwhile, what Phillymiss said is evidently true, and I and Praxedes – and I think, most people, realize it.
No different from asking, “Is it going to make a difference if pro-lifers are talking about gay people or non-gay people?” I submit that it would be silly (and self-evidently wrong) to maintain that it makes no difference. Same for the issue of race.”
Claire, I was just pointing out what is obvious to me, although perhaps not to everybody (since there was disagreement with what Phillymiss said).
This is not saying that no Christians would accept the Duggars if they were Black or Latino. It is saying that if they were, then it would make a difference to some members of the Christian right.
In the same way, I’m not saying that “no pro-lifer accepts gay people.” Of course that is not true. However, among all pro-lifers, there is a significant portion of people for whom gay or non-gay makes a difference.
Doug, I can categorically deny that ‘pro-life’ is heavily Caucasian. You disagree — but on what basis? Have you worked with girls and women in crisis pregnancy situations over the last few decades?
To answer your question about race: I have no idea what percentages are pro-life. My question to you is: Does it matter? Why are you making this about race??? Phillymiss correlated this to race, and you chimed in.
And, yes, the fact that black families who are friends on the Duggars have been featured on their show does mean something — because the original “racial” charge had to do with pro-life people not wanting to see families like the Duggars of other skin colors on television. Which is a baseless charge.
There are plenty of people among “Bible-believing Christians” that have hateful attitudes about Blacks and Latinos. Do you seriously disagree with that?
I absolutely disagree with that. A lot of black people and Latinos are Bible-believing Christians! My integrated church is filled with people and families of all races. You seem to equate “Bible-believing Christian” with “Caucasian”. Again, you make this topic about race. Unbelievable.
You defined “Christian Right” as Protestants and Catholics that are Evangelical
Are you a Christian, Doug? I ask you this because you don’t seem to know that Catholics do not define or describe themselves as Evangelicals. Just the opposite.
You continued on with: Also, I see it as a political entity, too – and that could be broader than with just the “Evangelical” aspect.
You lost me here. I don’t know what that means. Do you?
You don’t have a definition for “Christian Right”. It’s just a nebulous idea in your mind. I have found this to be true among the many people I’ve asked to define it — the ones, like you, who make vague accusations but then cannot even explain who they’re talking about! All they (and you) “know” is that they’re Caucasian. This is prejudice, pure and simple. If Phillymiss disagrees, I hope she will feel free to offer her own definition.
Again, “pro-life” is not a racial issue. It is an issue of life and death. –
“Praxedes, did you forget that I had said that I did not buy the book, but checked it out at a local library?”
You mean you’re suppose to take the books back? :)
Seriously, I did forget that you said that. Much of the time I skim and miss way more than I retain.
I will remember those awesome swimsuits though. Maybe Miley and Brittany would consider modeling them and they will catch on in our country. :) We can always hope.
I debated on getting my 20 year old daughter and her friends a Wholesome Wear swimsuit for Christmas but I think they would try to have me committed.
Seriously now, we women can find a happy medium between Stringed Band-aids and Camping Tents, can’t we? One screams, “Look at me because aren’t I all that and a bag of Skittles?!” and the other pleads, “Please make sure to look at me because I might get pulled under and drown when this get-up takes on water.”
It really comes down to a choice for the women swimming though – that’s the principal of the matter.
Oops. I meant “principle.” :)
Doug 1:41am
Time and again I ask you for specifics and time and again you speak in vague generalties based on little more than personal prejudice.
So if Ryan and Lila announced tomorrow they were gay, I have no clue if they are or not, then the PL movement would go into tailspin. Gee whiz Doug, don’t let it get out to the ladies of the PL Susan B. Anthony List that Ms.Anthony was gay. Also, Norma McCorvery is gay. There is an LGBT prolife group that joins the annual March for Life every year. Good heavens, the foundations of the PL movement are certain to crumble.
Hi Claire 10:36AM,
An outstanding post. Thank you.
Jessa is AWESOME& THE MOST GORGEOUS GIRL in ALL the smut that is the entertainment world, for ONE SIMPLE REASON—JESSA LOVES JESUS! That means Jessa is super smart to know she can ALWAYS speak the TRUTH and NEVER, EVER resort to the filth that all the other weak females in the smut entertainment industry cheapen themselves to(selling their dignity).
Mary: Time and again I ask you for specifics and time and again you speak in vague generalties based on little more than personal prejudice.
Mary, what Phillymiss said was: “But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.”
“Hateful things” is fairly broad, but surely you can imagine the specific things that are often said about minorities, including those two.
You said, “personal prejudice,” and I do not believe that you think it would not apply to *many* people, including many in the Christian Right, when it comes to Blacks and Latinos. Do you really need to hear the exact things that are commonly said, to then have you believe that they *are* said? You don’t think hateful things are said about Blacks and Latinos?
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So if Ryan and Lila announced tomorrow they were gay, I have no clue if they are or not, then the PL movement would go into tailspin. Gee whiz Doug, don’t let it get out to the ladies of the PL Susan B. Anthony List that Ms.Anthony was gay. Also, Norma McCorvery is gay. There is an LGBT prolife group that joins the annual March for Life every year. Good heavens, the foundations of the PL movement are certain to crumble.
I didn’t say it would be the end of ‘pro-life’ as we know it. ;)
I said “it would make quite a demonstrable difference to the pro-life community. Not that “everybody” who is pro-life would be affected. But many would be.”
Claire: Doug, I can categorically deny that ‘pro-life’ is heavily Caucasian. You disagree — but on what basis? Have you worked with girls and women in crisis pregnancy situations over the last few decades?
No, haven’t really worked with all that many girls and women in crisis pregnancy situations, Claire. But what statistical significance, on your part, do you think this has?
The US as a whole is heavily Caucasian – between 60 and 70%. For “pro-life” to diverge from that does not make sense to me.
I feel that if you really think about it, it would make sense to you too.
I would assert it like this: The US is heavily Caucasian. “Pro-life” is not going to have a make-up that is meaningfully statistically different. Therefore, “pro-life” is heavily Caucasian.
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To answer your question about race: I have no idea what percentages are pro-life. My question to you is: Does it matter? Why are you making this about race??? Phillymiss correlated this to race, and you chimed in.
Once again, nobody “is making it about race.” If anything, the point is that now, it is *not* about race. That if the Duggars were Black or Latino, that *then* is when it would become much more about race.
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And, yes, the fact that black families who are friends on the Duggars have been featured on their show does mean something — because the original “racial” charge had to do with pro-life people not wanting to see families like the Duggars of other skin colors on television. Which is a baseless charge.
Wrong, and you need to read what Phillymiss said, again. The Duggars could have a friendly family of little green men from Mars, and the fact remains that if the Duggars were Black or Latino, then hateful things would be said about them, and there is certainly rational doubt as to what extent they would then be the darlings of the Christian Right.
Doug: “There are plenty of people among “Bible-believing Christians” that have hateful attitudes about Blacks and Latinos. Do you seriously disagree with that?”
I absolutely disagree with that. A lot of black people and Latinos are Bible-believing Christians! My integrated church is filled with people and families of all races. You seem to equate “Bible-believing Christian” with “Caucasian”. Again, you make this topic about race. Unbelievable.
Nobody is making it about race. The point is that Phillymiss is correct – that it *would be* much more about race if the Duggars were Black or Latino. Surely that is not hard to understand.
I am not equating bible-believing Christians with “Caucasian.” That is not necessary for what I have said to be true, and the same for what Phillymiss said. All that’s needed are people that say hateful things about Blacks or Latinos or both. And – for both within and without the Christian Right, I don’t think you can say “They are not there,” with a straight face.
The makeup of your Church does not determine things for the US as a whole (or for the viewership of the Duggars, or those who comment upon them, as a whole). You are trying to generalize from the particular, and that is a logical fallacy.
Also – I agree with you (of course) that lots of Blacks and Latinos are bible-believing Christians. But so what? Why in the world would you think that refutes anything I’ve said?
Claire: You defined “Christian Right” as “Protestants and Catholics that are Evangelical.”
Are you a Christian, Doug? I ask you this because you don’t seem to know that Catholics do not define or describe themselves as Evangelicals.
I’m agnostic, Claire. Seriously, though, where in the heck are you getting what you said, above?
#1 definition from dictionary.com for “Evangelical”: ‘Also, ‘evangelic.’ “pertaining to or in keeping with the gospel and its teachings.”
Catholics may not go for being tagged as “fundamentalists,” I guess… As for “evangelical,” some certainly are okay with that, and more than okay with it.
http://www.evangelicalcatholic.org/
You can read about some stuff right there.
Pope John Paul II heavily lobbied for more evangelical Catholics.
Pope Paul VI: “The Church exists, in order to evangelize.”
Anyway, you asked me to define “Christian Right.” It really does not matter how people describe themselves, if they fit the definition. I submit that both Protestants and Catholics can be evangelical, by the very definition of the word itself. The evangel *is* the Gospel, after all.
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You continued on with: “Also, I see it as a political entity, too – and that could be broader than with just the “Evangelical” aspect.”
You lost me here. I don’t know what that means. Do you?
Yah…. :P
The Christian Right can be said to be a political entity. Often, it functions as a substantially monolithic voting bloc. I noted that it could be beyond the “evangelical” aspect, here – to reflect the inclusion of some who don’t fit the definition.
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You don’t have a definition for “Christian Right”. It’s just a nebulous idea in your mind.
Claire, you said, I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a clear-cut definition.
If you’ve never heard one that’s clear-cut, then I submit that I’m not doing all that bad… ;)
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I have found this to be true among the many people I’ve asked to define it — the ones, like you, who make vague accusations but then cannot even explain who they’re talking about!
I’m sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. You are the one who tries to generalize from the particular, and who ignores the fact that things may not be mutually exclusive.
I didn’t make any vague accusations. I noted a fact – that within the ‘Christian Right’ there is a substantial number of people for whom race really is a factor, and who, at times, say hateful things about Blacks and Latinos.
The people in your church, and the people you work with – do not alter that fact.
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All they (and you) “know” is that they’re Caucasian. This is prejudice, pure and simple.
That is you saying that, not me. I didn’t say that. Once again, you are acting like they all have to be “one thing.” It’s just not that way.
What I have said is that there are people who will say hateful things about Blacks and Latinos. This goes to what Phillymiss said – that hateful things would be said “if the Duggars were black or Latino.”
I think that to argue against that is just plain silly.
It is also true, that within the Christian Right, there are people who will say hateful things about Blacks and Latinos. This does not mean that you don’t know people who are not that way. This does not mean that everybody in the Christian Right is that way. But it does mean that Phillymiss has one heck of a good point about the Christian Right and the Duggars, were the Duggars Black or Latino.
I have been on this site for awhile and most of you know that I do not play the race card. But if the Duggars were black or Latino with all those kids lots of hateful things would be said about them, and I doubt very much if they would be the darlings of the Christian Right.
Ok, I laughed out loud at this.
You think the Duggars, being white, so far have NOT had “lots of hateful things” said about them?? And by people who purport to be Christians? I can’t read anything about the Duggars without hateful things being said about them. Seriously. Many of the hateful things have been said right here on this pro-life site. So to your comment… wow.
Isn’t it Margaret Sanger and her Birth Control League/Planned Parenthood who have been the ones to speak disparagingly about the birth rates of minorities? And it is pro-lifers who are decrying the huge number of minority abortions occurring in this country?
One problem we have begun to see (and not just among minorities), is the prevalence of single-parent households. In many of these instances, we can observe children who are the product of multiple fathers who have never been involved in their kids’ lives. This hurts the mothers and the children, who seem to also be caught in an endless cycle of poverty.
So let me just say… I actually think if a large Christian Hispanic or Black family (with two traditionally married parents raising them, like the Duggars) had their own reality show, they’d have a huge following. Huge.
I know they weren’t a real-life family, but the Cosby Show was my favorite show. My kids watch the reruns now and love it, and of course that show featured married Black parents with five children. The show was a huge success, and I’m pretty sure “white America” was watching it. Granted, they didn’t have 19 kids, but the show was not lacking in family or religious values.
I really don’t agree with your argument.
Doug 12:12am
Let me break this down to a few basic questions since obviously we are getting nowhere.
phillymiss’ post suggests that a black or Latino Duggar family would be subject to more criticism. Please address the following questions specifically:
1. Have the Duggars not been subjected to their fair share of criticism, including from you and me?
2. How exactly would a black or Latino family be subjected to more criticism and how? What would it consist of?
3. One has to conclude that being white has spared the Duggars criticism. Please give some examples of how this is the case.
Yes, “hateful things” is pretty broad, and I’ve heard “hateful things” said about people of all races, faiths, and ethnicities. I was subject to a great deal of jealousy and bullying by a black classmate because I was white. People destroy others lives out of pure jealousy.
Sorry Doug, but the world is full of many “hateful things” and bigotry and hatred is a definite two way street.
Also Doug, why do you assume anything “heavily Caucasian” must be bigoted and hateful to non white people? Do you remember “The Promise Keepers”. A group of “heavily Caucasian” men promoting the responsibilities of fatherhood, etc.? How well I remember the wailing over their “racism” and “bigotry”, they’re white men, right?. In fact they actively recruited minorities and the founder had two biracial grandchildren whose pictures he proudly displayed. Rather peculiar behavior for a racist, wouldn’t you say?
We also had a black men’s organization in our community. I don’t recall anyone screaming “racism”. Why would anyone assume a men’s organization of any race has to be racist?
So please Doug, point out how the homosexuality of Susan B. Anthony and Norma McCorvey, and the existence of a very active pro life LGBT organization has made “quite a demonstrable difference to the pro-life community” and in what way?
Hi Kel,
Thank you for making many excellent points.
Why this ever had to be turned into a racial issue is beyond me and it infuriates me.
While you and I disagree on the Duggars, we base our opinions on their actions, not their skin color. I never gave it a thought until phillymiss’ post, and I’m sure you didn’t either.
Kel, thank you. You are a clear voice of reason here. Thanks so much for wading through all that malarkey and getting to the point. Mary, ITA with your statement: Why this ever had to be turned into a racial issue is beyond me
The only prejudice I’ve seen evidence of here is against Caucasians and the “Christian Right”. I guess Caucasians are only acceptable to some if they’re part of the “Christian Left”. ;-)
Mary, this is totally OT, and I don’t want to start a bunny trail here. Just responding to your comment about Norma McCorvey. I’ve read her book Won By Love, and I knew I didn’t remember it as you said it, so I looked it up, and found this at Wiki:
“[She] says she is no longer a lesbian.” Citation given: Duin, Julia (January 21, 1996), Jane Roe’s ‘turn to God’ complete, The Washington Times
Kel: You think the Duggars, being white, so far have NOT had “lots of hateful things” said about them?? And by people who purport to be Christians? I can’t read anything about the Duggars without hateful things being said about them. Seriously. Many of the hateful things have been said right here on this pro-life site. So to your comment… wow.
Kel, indeed – some hateful things have been said about the Duggars. But I see much more of people commenting about the mentality of the father and mother, and the plight of the kids, rather than actual “hateful” stuff.
What you said really doesn’t refute Phillymiss’s comment.
The Cosby Show – yeah, it was good. But I have news for you – Jim Bob Duggar ain’t no Cliff Huxtable. :P If he was black or Latino, that would still be the case.
Mary: Let me break this down to a few basic questions since obviously we are getting nowhere.
All righty then – let’s break it on down now, girl! :)
Sorry for the long delay in replying, Mary. I’m working in Nevada, along US 50, “The Loneliest Road in America.” Long days, not much internet. Between the little towns of Austin and Eureka – talk about the uncluttered desert. Great this time of year.
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phillymiss’ post suggests that a black or Latino Duggar family would be subject to more criticism. Please address the following questions specifically:
1. Have the Duggars not been subjected to their fair share of criticism, including from you and me?
I think you are reading more into Phillymiss’s statement, than what is necessarily there. She didn’t say they are not being criticized, as things are. But certainly – granted they have been criticized. Are there as many “hateful things” said about them, with them being white, though, versus what would be case if they were Black or Latino? I don’t think so.
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2. How exactly would a black or Latino family be subjected to more criticism and how? What would it consist of?
Again, she did not say, “more criticism.” I think you have a case that it can be implied, however, along with the hateful stuff Phillymiss mentioned. Minorities are subject to stereotypical, pejorative stuff, in ways that whites are not, in the US.
To call it “criticism” is off the mark, in my opinion. A lot of it is just shooting-from-the-hip, straight-out racist stuff, being no necessary reflection of reality.
And of course there are those in the US who are outspokenly racist toward Whites, but the relative numbers are not comparable; it’s just not the same at all.
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3. One has to conclude that being white has spared the Duggars criticism. Please give some examples of how this is the case.
Yes, “hateful things” is pretty broad, and I’ve heard “hateful things” said about people of all races, faiths, and ethnicities. I was subject to a great deal of jealousy and bullying by a black classmate because I was white. People destroy others lives out of pure jealousy.
Yeah, there’s been less said about them than what would be the case if they were Black or Latino. The Duggars don’t get anything like the amount of stereotypical pejoratives they would, if Black or Latino.
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Sorry Doug, but the world is full of many “hateful things” and bigotry and hatred is a definite two way street.
It’s not a two-way street, here. We are talking about what people would say about the family, not anything coming from the family.
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Also Doug, why do you assume anything “heavily Caucasian” must be bigoted and hateful to non white people?
Nobody said “anything heavily Caucasian.” We are talking about the US population and/or the “Christian Right.” Within both those groups, there is racism, and the majority is White, not Black or Latino.
The obvious truth of Phillymiss’s statement is there. Only way it would not be is if there was no racism in the US, or if our population makeup was substantially different.
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Do you remember “The Promise Keepers”. A group of “heavily Caucasian” men promoting the responsibilities of fatherhood, etc.? How well I remember the wailing over their “racism” and “bigotry”, they’re white men, right?
Who was saying that? I don’t remember it. Not saying it wasn’t the case, just am not aware of it.
I did see a huge gathering of Promise Keepers, at a big hotel north of Washington, D.C. Tell you what – apparently the “promises” don’t include not getting annihilated in the hotel bar. :P
Not saying it was most of them; it was certainly a small minority. But would have to laugh if the wife and kids at home could have seen old dad in action, there. There were some direly hung-over old boys at the rally that next day….
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In fact they actively recruited minorities and the founder had two biracial grandchildren whose pictures he proudly displayed. Rather peculiar behavior for a racist, wouldn’t you say?
We also had a black men’s organization in our community. I don’t recall anyone screaming “racism”. Why would anyone assume a men’s organization of any race has to be racist?
As stated, I don’t think anybody necessarily would. But if it’s the US as a whole, where there is undeniable racism, and if it’s the ‘Christian Right’ where there is a substantial number of racist people, then it’s pretty clear that Phillymiss is right.
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So please Doug, point out how the homosexuality of Susan B. Anthony and Norma McCorvey, and the existence of a very active pro life LGBT organization has made “quite a demonstrable difference to the pro-life community” and in what way?
We would have to know how things would be if homosexuality was not involved. Meanwhile, to say that homosexuality is not an issue within the pro-life community would be silly.
Mary (to Kel): Why this ever had to be turned into a racial issue is beyond me and it infuriates me.
Mary, as I said before, I was surprised at the vehemence with which you approached this. Not saying you “should” feel any way, here, just that I was really surprised.
Why do think this was “turned into a racial issue”? Isn’t it clear that it’s really not a racial deal, now? What more, in that vein, can we take from Phillymiss’s statement than, “It *would be* a racial issue if the Duggars were Black or Latino”?
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While you and I disagree on the Duggars, we base our opinions on their actions, not their skin color. I never gave it a thought until phillymiss’ post, and I’m sure you didn’t either.
I heartily doubt that Phillymiss was talking about you or Kel. ;)
Claire: The only prejudice I’ve seen evidence of here is against Caucasians and the “Christian Right”.
Claire, if you are saying there is not a meaningful amount of racism among white Americans – the majority watchers of the Duggar’s show – then I think you are denying what you know to be true.
As for the Christian Right – it’s the same deal.
Doug said: [S]ome hateful things have been said about the Duggars. But I see much more of people commenting about the mentality of the father and mother, and the plight of the kids, rather than actual “hateful” stuff.
Apparently you’ve missed a lot of actual hateful stuff which has been said about them at a number of websites. Much more hateful than I’ve ever seen or heard directed at anyone else.
Claire: The only prejudice I’ve seen evidence of here is against Caucasians and the “Christian Right”.
Doug: [I]f you are saying there is not a meaningful amount of racism among white Americans – the majority watchers of the Duggar’s show – then I think you are denying what you know to be true. As for the Christian Right – it’s the same deal.
Doug, as I said above, your prejudice comes through loud and clear here. You assume that white Americans are prejudiced, you assume that “the Christian Right” is comprised of prejudiced people. Do you really believe that white Americans did not vote for Obama? I know better.
I’m not denying what I know to be true. I’m trying to tell you what I know, but you refuse to listen.
You also ignore the fact that white Americans comprise much of the “Christian Left”.
Oh, and don’t assume that everyone who posts here is Caucasian. Despite your assumptions, there really are a lot of pro-life people of varying skin colors.
Doug said: if it’s the ‘Christian Right’ where there is a substantial number of racist people
The key word in that phrase is “if”.
It just occurred to me — are you saying the KKK and similar groups are part of, or representative of, the “Christian Right”? I’ve heard this accusation before, and it would be laughable if it weren’t so sad.
The ideology of the KKK and similar groups is as far away from the teachings of Jesus Christ as you can get. If you don’t believe me, check out what He said. Anybody can claim to be a Christian, but, as He said, “By their fruit you will know them.”
One more attempt to open your eyes, Doug, to the fact that African-Americans are opposed to abortion.
There really are African-Americans who are aware of Margaret Sanger’s racial agenda. They see that as equivalent with slavery in its ideology. Scroll down to the bottom of the first link to see the link between them. And don’t miss the startling statement on the upper right corner of the webpage.
Do you know who Alveda King is? She is a niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, is passionately opposed to abortion, and says that Coretta Scott King knew that MLK was opposed to abortion.
http://www.nationalblackprolifeunion.com/
http://www.blackprolifecoalition.org
http://www.blackgenocide.org
Claire: Apparently you’ve missed a lot of actual hateful stuff which has been said about them at a number of websites. Much more hateful than I’ve ever seen or heard directed at anyone else.
Could be, Claire, although I really doubt the last part. I also don’t think it really matters, because nobody is saying that nothing bad or hateful gets said about the Duggars.
Phillymiss’s point would still hold true, i.e. however much hateful stuff is said about them due to the big family, to Jim Bob’s horribly overcontrolling nature, etc., that would still be there, and if they were Black or Latino then you’d have all the racial stuff on top of it.
Claire: Claire: The only prejudice I’ve seen evidence of here is against Caucasians and the “Christian Right”.
Doug: “If you are saying there is not a meaningful amount of racism among white Americans – the majority watchers of the Duggar’s show – then I think you are denying what you know to be true. As for the Christian Right – it’s the same deal.”
Doug, as I said above, your prejudice comes through loud and clear here. You assume that white Americans are prejudiced,
Claire, I appreciate you responding, and for once it’s not just that the posters’ positions are determined by pro-life/pro-choice.
We really are just talking about mathematics and varying sets of people here. You are making some errors in logic, so let’s go through them.
Yes, white Americans are prejudiced. That is not to say that all white Americans are, but some certainly are. Who would argue with that?
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you assume that “the Christian Right” is comprised of prejudiced people.
Yes, *some* prejudiced people, as I’ve said previously:
“within the ‘Christian Right’ there is a substantial number of people for whom race really is a factor, and who, at times, say hateful things about Blacks and Latinos.”
This is not saying that everybody there is prejudiced, but you seem incapable of understanding that.
Not everybody there has to be prejudiced for what Phillymiss said to be true, and the same for what I have said.
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Do you really believe that white Americans did not vote for Obama? I know better.
If you really “knew better,” then you would see that it does not matter. Sure, of course some white Americans voted for Obama. So what? Nobody is saying that none did…
All that is required for what Phillymiss said to be true is that there are people who comment upon the Duggars who are prejudiced against Blacks and Latinos, and who would say hateful things about them. Simply put – these people do exist! That not everybody in the US, the “Christian Right,” etc., is that way does not change things.
As for the “Christian Right,” specifically, and the Duggars not being the darlings of it were they Black, again – it is due to SOME people for whom race is a big issue. Not saying that everybody in the “Christian Right” is prejudiced or hateful toward Blacks or Latinos. But some are, enough that what Phillymiss said is certainly true.
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I’m not denying what I know to be true. I’m trying to tell you what I know, but you refuse to listen.
I hear you, but you want to generalize from the particular, and that’s not logical. If somebody asks you, “Are there any racists in the “Christian Right,” you can’t be truthful and answer that there are none.
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You also ignore the fact that white Americans comprise much of the “Christian Left”.
So what? Phillymiss didn’t say anything about that, and neither did I or anybody else.
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Oh, and don’t assume that everyone who posts here is Caucasian.
Well duh, no kidding.
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Despite your assumptions, there really are a lot of pro-life people of varying skin colors.
Of course, and never said anything to the contrary.
Doug said: “if it’s the ‘Christian Right’ where there is a substantial number of racist people, then it’s pretty clear that Phillymiss is right.”
Claire: The key word in that phrase is “if”.
It’s a given that we were talking about the “Christian Right.”
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It just occurred to me — are you saying the KKK and similar groups are part of, or representative of, the “Christian Right”? I’ve heard this accusation before, and it would be laughable if it weren’t so sad.
No, I didn’t say that. Just as a relatively very few Klan members don’t define the “Christian Right,” neither do the ones you know personally. The point is that within the “Christian Right” as a whole, there are enough people for whom race is an issue that what Phillymiss said is true.
Doug: “…much hateful stuff is said about [the Duggars] due to the big family, to Jim Bob’s horribly overcontrolling nature, etc., that would still be there, and if they were Black or Latino then you’d have all the racial stuff on top of it.”
You know, how irrational is it that unbelievably hateful stuff is said about the Duggars just because they have a big family! I thought the key word was “choice”. As it turns out, tolerance is not so tolerant, after all.
JimBob’s “horribly overcontrolling nature” is a matter of opinion — in the eye of the beholder. I’ve read their books, I’ve watched their TV show, and I do not see that in him. So it can’t be stated as a fact.
Yes, I noticed that neither you nor PhillyMiss mentioned the “Christian Left”. That was a rather obvious omission. ;)
I will not argue the fact that some Caucasian people are prejudiced, just as I will not argue that some African-American people are prejudiced, some Latinos are prejudiced, some Asians are prejudiced, etc.
The thing is, you have equated prejudice among Caucasians with the “Christian Right”. If you had simply said “Caucasians”, I would not have had any problem with that, especially if you had also acknowledged prejudice among people of other skin colors.
Not only did you and PhillyMiss make pro-life a racial issue, you also made it an opportunity to cast aspersions on Christians — and not only that, but unjustly, by singling out the “Christian Right”, but not mentioning the “Christian Left”.
The bottom line is, any professing Christian who holds prejudice in his heart — regardless of his skin color — is in direct disobedience to the Lord whom he professes to love.
The Word of God says that God made all men of one blood. There’s only one race — the human race.
Pro-life is not a racial issue. It’s an issue of life and death. Please stop trying to make it what it’s not — an excuse to cast aspersions on Bible-believing Christians who happen to be Caucasian.
Claire: You know, how irrational is it that unbelievably hateful stuff is said about the Duggars just because they have a big family! I thought the key word was “choice”. As it turns out, tolerance is not so tolerant, after all.
Well, I have not really seen “unbelievably hateful stuff” said about them. The negative comments I see are mostly feeling sorry for the kids and/or saying that the parents overdo some stuff. It really is not just because they have a big family – a lot of it is related to how the parents treat the kids, and this would apply if they had a lot less of them.
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JimBob’s “horribly overcontrolling nature” is a matter of opinion — in the eye of the beholder. I’ve read their books, I’ve watched their TV show, and I do not see that in him. So it can’t be stated as a fact.
Agreed, Claire – matter of opinion. I have to say that he does drastically impinge on the lives of his kids, even when they are adults.
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Yes, I noticed that neither you nor PhillyMiss mentioned the “Christian Left”. That was a rather obvious omission. ;)
What’s “obvious” about it? Phillymiss just wasn’t talking about it. If you mean that some criticism of the Duggars would come from there, well sure, of course. Phillymiss’s point about the “Christian Right” is that race makes a difference.
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The thing is, you have equated prejudice among Caucasians with the “Christian Right”. If you had simply said “Caucasians”, I would not have had any problem with that, especially if you had also acknowledged prejudice among people of other skin colors.
No, I really did not equate that. You make it sound like I said that any Caucasian who is prejudiced is in the “Christian Right,” but I really didn’t.
Just for clarity – some Whites are prejudiced. Some of the “Christian Right” are prejudiced. Enough that what Phillymiss said is true. Would not *have* to be Whites among the “Christian Right,” but I think that’s mostly the case, i.e. the Duggars not being White would not make nearly the difference to the non-Whites.
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Not only did you and PhillyMiss make pro-life a racial issue, you also made it an opportunity to cast aspersions on Christians — and not only that, but unjustly, by singling out the “Christian Right”, but not mentioning the “Christian Left”.
Oh good grief, Claire… :P The Duggars are not such “darlings” of the Christian Left in the first place. There is no point in Phillymiss mentioning them, there. Heck, the Duggars are hardly poster-children for the Loyal Order of Spline Reticulators, either – are you gonna be bumming out that they didn’t get mentioned, either?
How in the world do you see any of this as “making pro-life a racial issue”?
Phillymiss’s comment addresses people in general, and then the Christian Right.
Nobody “cast aspersions” on Christians. Some of them are prejudiced, that’s all.
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The bottom line is, any professing Christian who holds prejudice in his heart — regardless of his skin color — is in direct disobedience to the Lord whom he professes to love.
All fine and good if you believe that. Really tain’t the argument, though.
Claire: One more attempt to open your eyes, Doug, to the fact that African-Americans are opposed to abortion.
Some are, some aren’t.
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Do you know who Alveda King is? She is a niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, is passionately opposed to abortion, and says that Coretta Scott King knew that MLK was opposed to abortion.
I’m thinking you read that from some website that is less than honest.
Here is what MLK said about Sanger: “She, like we, saw the horrifying conditions of ghetto life. Like we, she knew that all of society is poisoned by cancerous slums. Like we, she was a direct actionist—a nonviolent resister… At the turn of the century she went into the slums and set up a birth control clinic, and for this deed she went to jail because she was violating an unjust law. Yet the years have justified her actions. She launched a movement which is obeying a higher law to preserve human life under humane conditions… Our sure beginning in the struggle for equality by nonviolent direct action may not have been so resolute without the tradition established by Margaret Sanger and people like her.”
In Sanger’s time, eugenics was a very popular idea, and this was true among many people that were against abortion and birth control as well as among those that were for them being legal. It was not like Sanger was “aiming at Black people.”