Democrat Party’s new cause: adult consensual incest
You will note a missing word in the description of the rape/incest exceptions in the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, i.e., 20-week abortion ban, passed in the U.S. House May 13:
EXCEPTIONS….
the pregnancy is the result of rape against an adult woman….
the pregnancy is a result of rape against a minor or incest against a minor….
Do you see it? The missing word is “incest against an adult woman.”
This is because adult consensual incest is, well, consensual. If it is not consensual, then it is rape and covered in the bill. Under the rape exception it is irrelevant whether or not the assailant is related to the victim.
This same logic could have been used to exclude “incest” from the minor rape exception, but as was explained to me by a person close to the bill, “The word ‘incest’ is not ‘needed’ in the minor rape exception, but it does no harm – it does not increase the number of people in the class who qualify for abortions. It is simpler to have it there than to have to explain why it is not there. With respect to adults, the contrary is true.”
Actually there was never any version of this bill under which a consenting adult would qualify for a post-20 week abortion on grounds that her chosen sex partner was related to her.
Nor was any such change ever contemplated during the review process. Granting special status to adults who choose to engage in sex with their relatives was never an option.
But at least one Democrat decided during debate on the 20-week ban Wednesday to champion the cause of adult consensual incest, Congressman Steve Cohen (pictured above left) from Tennessee.
Note in this comedic clip how Cohen steps into it, but then falters a bit…
Transcript:
If a person is pregnant – a woman is pregnant because of incest, under this law, if the lady is under 18 years of age, there’s one rule.
But if she’s 18 years of age or older, there’s another rule. And what it says is if you’re 18 or over and you’re pregnant as a result of incest, then you cannot get an abortion. You cannot! But if you’re under 18, you can if you report it to the law enforcement authorities.
In a discussion last night at Rules Committee, the Vice Chair of the Rules Committee errantly compared rape and incest.
Incest does not necessarily involve rape. It involves intercourse between parties that are not legally supposed to have intercourse, and issues which could result in problems for the child. Incest should always be an exception….
So here we had Cohen advocating for special abortion rights for adults he admitted were involved in consensual but illegal incest.
And “problems for the child“? Major terminology gaffe.
And placing this adult consensual sex on the same plane as rape?
Is this really the next sexual taboo Democrats want to champion?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
This is a republican bill. Not a democrat bill.
It failed previously because it insisted that rapes be reported to meet the exception requirements, adding additional trauma for some victims of rape.
But the republicans have left in the passage which effectively says that people 18 or older cannot be victims of incest.
The republicans are responsible for the missing words.
@”Reality”
It’s funny how Democrats have such a problem with rapists being reported.
“Who cares if rapists go free to rape other women; women MUST have abortions at ANY cost! More rapists wandering the streets means more abortions!”
Yeah, that’s REALLY ‘pro-woman’ of you guys…
I don’t think that Democrats are ready to champion incestuous relationships just yet.
This ban on late-term abortions enjoys popular support. Those politicians owned by the abortion industry were just trying to cast some doubt on the bill. Most likely, they wanted to make it seem like the law supports incest… and the confusion tactic didn’t work.
On the other hand…. those who seek to further confuse and erase natural marriage from our culture will be seeking soon enough to further define “marriage” to include familial and inter-generational relationships that we current forbid as incestuous.
Oh yes, the young Carrie Fisher….. Yessssss.
It is the republican attitude that women cannot decide for themselves how best to deal with situations which is the problem.
Some women suffer additional trauma if they are required to go through the processes.
The republicans don’t care about that.
Democrat support for womens needs does not equate to allowing rapists to go free.
Nor do they espouse that women must have abortions at any cost.
Democrats are pro-woman, republicans aren’t.
As evidenced by their claim that once people turn 18 they can no longer be victims of incest.
On the other hand…. those who seek to further confuse and erase natural marriage from our culture – which ‘natural’ marriage? Whose interpretation?
will be seeking soon enough to further define “marriage” to include familial and inter-generational relationships that we current forbid as incestuous. – why do you constantly make statements that bear zero resemblance to the real world.
@Reality
It is the Democrat attitude that selfish desires come before the right to live. Having a vagina shouldn’t give a woman a license to kill any more than having a penis should give a man a license to rape.
If rapists aren’t reported, more women can suffer through the trauma of being raped. Democrats don’t care about that – you guys just want to win a pointless war against children. It’s so important to you guys that women feel good about their abortions that you’re willing to literally let men get away with rape.
1.2 million children are killed every year in the name of ‘vagina-power’. We’re putting a stop to it.
Get over yourselves; history will remember you as the villain.
No, it is the democrat attitude that people live in freedom, with the ability to control their own lives.
Republicans seek to control people, to make them live according to a narrow view.
You don’t appear to trust women to know what is best for them. You want them to accord with what you consider best for them.
There is no war against children. It’s a non-existent concept. What there is is a war against women, engaged by republicans.
You will not put a stop to womens freedom to choose.
You are already on the wrong side of history.
“Democrat Party’s new cause: adult consensual incest” is an appalling distortion of the truth.
But the republicans have left in the passage which effectively says that people 18 or older cannot be victims of incest.
If it’s between consenting adults, incest is a victimless crime. Otherwise it would be considered incestuous rape (and fall under the rape exception in the bill). There is no need for another exception.
Oh, wow! Now I’ve reduced you to nothing but platitudes and diatribe! Look at how desperate you come across! :)
Republicans aren’t seeking to control anyone. The FACT of the matter is that abortion kills children.
Laws against abortion won’t force women into pregnancy any more than laws against rape force men into abstinence. There’s no “war on women”. That’s just feminazi rhetoric.
Take a breath, and THINK about what you’re supporting – you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children.
More & more restrictions are being placed upon your holocaust as more & more abortion mills are closing down as more & more people are identifying as pro-life.
Your cause, and everything you’re fighting for will be nothing but another shameful sh*tstain on the underwear of human history.
Deal with it.
@Reality
By the way; how can someone over 18 be a victim of incest?
Calm down, and THINK about this one… Do you see the mistake that you’ve just made?
I’ll give you a minute…
“Oh, wow! Now I’ve reduced you to nothing but platitudes and diatribe! Look at how desperate you come across!”
Not trying to rain on your parade, Chris, but Reality’s comments are almost always just platitudes and diatribe.
@Kel
It certainly seems that way, but at least he/she was trying to make them more fanciful in the beginning…
Navi, a lot of “consensual” adult incest is actually due to childhood grooming/abuse or dysfunctional family dynamics (especially when you’re talking about a parent and child, or an aunt/uncle with a niece/nephew). The “victimless” incest like people think of is usually cousins and such.
Though it really really makes me sick to my stomach to think of incest, at all, so I’m probably biased, but I really don’t think most people enter incestuous relationships (except, I guess, in some cases of cousins) with both parties 100% consenting and I don’t think they are mentally healthy for the participants, especially the younger and more vulnerable partner.
But anyway, I think it’s a huge stretch to say the Democratic party is advocating incest. Like, so much of a reach that Stretch Armstrong couldn’t make it, lol.
What can I say, he represents Memphis! He was caught not long ago tweeting I love you during the state of the union address to a very young girl. Then he said that he just found out she was his daughter. Really? Her father took exception to that and had the DNA to prove it.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/07/rep-steve-cohen-not-the-father-of-sotu-twitter-mate/
Its weird how Fantasies friends are trolling this site..
Ah… well anyways… so, WAIT, THIS PASSED?!?
I can’t imagine it, its seams to be true.
The silence is deafening.
Now I’ve reduced you to nothing but platitudes and diatribe! – what, like “It’s funny how Democrats have such a problem with rapists being reported.” LOL, don’t flatter yourself. If you look you’ll see that I used the same structure and language in my responses as you did in your comments. The difference being that what I said reflected the true situation.
Republicans aren’t seeking to control anyone. – no? Is that why they are constantly seeking to reduce women’s reproductive rights? Prevent two people who love each other from marrying? You insist that government stay out of your life while demanding that it interfere in the lives of those doing stuff you don’t like.
Laws against abortion won’t force women into pregnancy any more than laws against rape force men into abstinence. – that’s just a little disingenuous of you now isn’t it.
There’s no “war on women”. – well yes there is. And the GOP will ultimately lose it.
That’s just feminazi rhetoric. – surely whatever basis on which the ‘feminazi’ tag is confected indicates that something like ‘faithnazi’ should also be included in the rhetoric?
Take a breath, and THINK about what you’re supporting – you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children. – and you accuse me of platitudes and diatribe? What distorted logic. None of us want men to get away with rape. You just value the victim’s personal trauma and how she needs to deal with it less than I do.
Not all victims of rape who fall pregnant seek abortions, remember. Yet some of those may also choose not to report. What do you have to say about them? You also seem to forget that women who don’t get pregnant through rape also feel disinclined to report their rape. What do you have to say to them and those who may support their decision? Come on, tell us.
More & more restrictions are being placed upon your holocaust – well you’ve blown it right there. There is no holocaust.
as more & more abortion mills are closing down – for now.
as more & more people are identifying as pro-life. – including me :-)
Your cause, and everything you’re fighting for will be nothing but another shameful sh*tstain on the underwear of human history. – you identified the wrong topic.
Deal with it. – Look at how desperate you come across!
By the way; how can someone over 18 be a victim of incest? – are you kidding?
Calm down, and THINK about this one… Do you see the mistake that you’ve just made? – I’m always calm. And I actually think before I write. If you did the same you wouldn’t have made the mistake you have.
I’ll give you a minute… – I’ll give you even longer. I’ll even give you a clue. Do you think that women who don’t report being physically abused by their husbands are agreeing to be abused?
You’re always god for a giggle Kel.
Ah… well anyways… so, WAIT, THIS PASSED?!?
I can’t imagine it, its seams to be true.
The silence is deafening. – that’d be because people know the truth.
“By the way; how can someone over 18 be a victim of incest? – are you kidding?”
Yeah, that… gave me pause too. I honestly don’t see a charitable interpretation of that comment.
@”Reality”
“The difference being that what I said reflected the true situation.”
How? Because you said it’s true? Because the hags from The View told you so? Because the bumper sticker on your neighbor’s Prius has a slogan that is catchy to you?
“Is that why they are constantly seeking to reduce women’s reproductive rights?”
Nobody’s trying to control any reproductice rights. If you don’t want to reproduce, don’t reproduce. Once a child is conceivedm, reproduction has already taken place.
“Prevent two people who love each other from marrying?”
What are you doing to support incest marriage?
“You insist that government stay out of your life while demanding that it interfere in the lives of those doing stuff you don’t like.”
You mean like banning large sodas? Banning cigarettes? Rewriting the Pledge of Allegience? Abolishing abortion will not be an imposition to your life – it will merely prevent you from ending someone else’s.
“well yes there is. And the GOP will ultimately lose it.”
Well, no there isn’t. The fight against abortion is no more a war on women than laws against rape are a war on men. Your platitudes fail.
“surely whatever basis on which the ‘feminazi’ tag is confected indicates that something like ‘faithnazi’ should also be included in the rhetoric?”
Go ahead; I’m agnostic. ;)
“and you accuse me of platitudes and diatribe?
I think you need to look those words up. You’ve just embarrassed yourself again.
“What distorted logic.”
Because you say so? Because Rachel Maddow told you so?
“None of us want men to get away with rape. You just value the victim’s personal trauma and how she needs to deal with it less than I do.”
OK, Sweetie, apparently, I need to walk you through this… Why do men get in trouble for rape? Yes, that’s right – it’s so they won’t do it again. Why does rape need to be reported? Yes, very good! It’s so they can get in trouble! Without the reporting, the rapist won’t get in trouble, therefore he’ll be free to do it again! Short of using sock-puppets, I don’t know how to make it any easier for you…
“Not all victims of rape who fall pregnant seek abortions, remember.”
This is true.
“Yet some of those may also choose not to report. What do you have to say about them? You also seem to forget that women who don’t get pregnant through rape also feel disinclined to report their rape. What do you have to say to them and those who may support their decision? Come on, tell us.”
No, Dear – I didn’t forget anything. Women who don’t report rapists enable the rapist to go free and victimize other women. Not reporting a rape for ANY reason is selfish.
“well you’ve blown it right there. There is no holocaust.”
BOOM:
holocaust
[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-]
noun
1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.
2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.
3.(usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually preceded by the).
4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
“for now.”
Really? We’re not showing any signs of slowing down. :)
“including me”
I would love to see you try to justify that claim.
“you identified the wrong topic.”
Hmm… The “I know you arem but what am I?” defense… Nicely played.
“are you kidding?”
No. Instead of whining, tell me what’s wrong with what I said.
“I’m always calm.”
You’re seething with feminazi rage.
“And I actually think before I write.”
You mean you’re actually thinking? Oh, that’s just sad… :(
“If you did the same you wouldn’t have made the mistake you have.”
No mistake was made.
“I’ll give you even longer. I’ll even give you a clue. Do you think that women who don’t report being physically abused by their husbands are agreeing to be abused?”
Where did this come from? Who said they’d be agreeing to getting abused? I’m saying she has the opportunity to stop it. If he has any other wives that he could abuse, not reporting him would be irresponsible and selfish. If she’s content taking abuse for HERSELF, then she seriously needs help… And she’ll never get it unless she reports it.
“Yeah, that… gave me pause too. I honestly don’t see a charitable interpretation of that comment.”
I don’t need your charity. How is it that someone over 18 can be a vicim of incest?
If it’s non-consensual, then it is rape.
Yeah, it’s still incest, that people are being victimized by. But I think we’re splitting hairs at that point.
I think you vastly, vastly underestimate how difficult abuse reporting is, btw.
Calling people selfish for being unable/unwilling to report a rape or abuse is just sick, and makes us pro-lifers honestly look like heartless wretches. And you’re just going to piss off fellow pro-lifers, not to mention women/men we want to reach, or make them feel ashamed or looked down on for not reporting.
How? Because you said it’s true? Because the hags from The View told you so? Because the bumper sticker on your neighbor’s Prius has a slogan that is catchy to you? – no, because it’s self-evident. (I wouldn’t bother reading any bumper stickers on a Prius)
Nobody’s trying to control any reproductice rights. – you’re being disingenuous again.
If you don’t want to reproduce, don’t reproduce. – and that’s where abortion comes in.
Once a child is conceivedm, reproduction has already taken place. – no, it’s under way. And it can be ended. Which is what you are seeking to control.
What are you doing to support incest marriage? – nothing, science says it isn’t a clever idea. What are you doing to support same-sex marriage?
You mean like banning large sodas? Banning cigarettes? – I’m not a supporter of those bans. You seem to be a fan of bans though.
Rewriting the Pledge of Allegience? – like happened in 1954?
Abolishing abortion will not be an imposition to your life – probably not to me personally to any great extent but it most assuredly would for many women.
it will merely prevent you from ending someone else’s. – not quite.
Well, no there isn’t. – those who can make a difference see that there is.
The fight against abortion is no more a war on women than laws against rape are a war on men. – rape is a crime and has a victim.
Your platitudes fail. – fail what? To reach the dizzying heights that yours do?
Go ahead; I’m agnostic. – one day you may be able to make a decision ;)
I think you need to look those words up. – I did. And your statement “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” was there. In bold type. You’ve just embarrassed yourself again.
Because you say so? Because Rachel Maddow told you so? – no, because it’s self-evident.
OK, Sweetie, apparently, I need to walk you through this… Not reporting a rape for ANY reason is selfish. – your qualifications in psychiatry or psychology and your experience in victim trauma counselling includes? If you are unaware of the entire span of rape victim trauma it’d probably better if you didn’t try to judge those concerned.
holocaust [hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-]
noun
1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.
2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.
3.(usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually preceded by the).
4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
tish…
abortion doesn’t meet the criteria.
Really? We’re not showing any signs of slowing down. – I said for now :)
I would love to see you try to justify that claim. – easy. I have identified as pro-life, I’ve even done so on this site. There are folk who ‘identify’ as “pro-life” who will, if they deem it necessary, seek an abortion.
Hmm… The “I know you arem but what am I?” defense… Nicely played. – not at all. From the moment women figured out what caused pregnancy they have sought to prevent and end unwanted pregnancies. It is not a ‘stain’, unlike some other events.
No. Instead of whining, tell me what’s wrong with what I said. nah, this is one of those instances where I’d prefer to let your question “how can someone over 18 be a victim of incest?” stand for all to see.
You’re seething with feminazi rage. – LOL. And you’re oozing strawmen and ad hominem phrases.
You mean you’re actually thinking? Oh, that’s just sad… – for you, yes :-)
No mistake was made – well I suppose if you are going to state something as inane as “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” you might not recognize your own mistake.
Where did this come from? – you’re the one dissing women who might not report their rape. Many victims of domestic violence cop more if they report it and get little or no help – unless they leave.
@”Reality”
“no, because it’s self-evident.”
Oh, good! That means you can explain it.
“you’re being disingenuous again.”
You’re evading your error again.
“and that’s where abortion comes in.”
You can’t abort a child that hasn’t been reproduced.
“no, it’s under way. And it can be ended. Which is what you are seeking to control.”
No, I have no desire to force women to reproduce, or deny them the right to reproduce.
reproduction in Medicine
reproduction re·pro·duc·tion (r?’pr?-d?k’sh?n)
n.
The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced.
Recall of a memory.
The sexual or asexual process by which organisms generate others of the same kind.
The American Heritage® Stedman’s Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
“nothing, science says it isn’t a clever idea. What are you doing to support same-sex marriage?”
Oh? I would LOVE to say what science has to say about marriage. Cite your sources, please. Also, I’m a libertarian. I don’t believe the government should sanction ANY marriage.
“I’m not a supporter of those bans. You seem to be a fan of bans though.”
You mean banning the homicide of innocent children? Yes. I’m a fan of banning that.
“probably not to me personally to any great extent but it most assuredly would for many women.”
No more than laws against rape are an imposition to men’s lives.
“not quite.”
For the most part, yes.
“those who can make a difference see that there is.”
Yes, that explains why abortion is slowly but surely being legislated out of legality.
“rape is a crime and has a victim.”
So, if abortion is illegalized, it will be a crime, won’t it? And abortion DOES have a victim. It’s funny to watch you bang your head against the wall trying to support something you obviously know nothing about.
“fail what? To reach the dizzying heights that yours do?”
Hmm… More “I’m rubber and you’re glue.” Nicely played.
“one day you may be able to make a decision”
Would you say that to a bisexual?
“I did. And your statement “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” was there. In bold type. You’ve just embarrassed yourself again.”
Explain how that is a platitude or diatribe.
“no, because it’s self-evident.”
Good. Then you can explain how.
“tish… ”
Gee, ya got me there…
“abortion doesn’t meet the criteria.”
Are you denying that abortion is homicide?
“I said for now”
Tick-tock, Dear. ;)
“easy. I have identified as pro-life, I’ve even done so on this site. There are folk who ‘identify’ as “pro-life” who will, if they deem it necessary, seek an abortion.”
That’s not pro-life.
“not at all. From the moment women figured out what caused pregnancy they have sought to prevent and end unwanted pregnancies. It is not a ‘stain’, unlike some other events.”
In other words, you can’t support your claim.
“LOL. And you’re oozing strawmen and ad hominem phrases.”
I’ve supported everything I’ve said.
“for you, yes”
Hmm… More ‘rubber vs. glue.’ It’s getting old, Dear.
“well I suppose if you are going to state something as inane as “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” you might not recognize your own mistake.”
Oh? How will a woman not reporting a rape help to stop a rapist?
you’re the one dissing women who might not report their rape. Many victims of domestic violence cop more if they report it and get little or no help – unless they leave.
People are arrested for domestic violence. What good does not reporting it do?
@Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer
What are you going on about?
If there’s consent,there’s no victim. If there’s no consent,then there’s a victim. What makes incest special?
So, if you or someone you love very dearly is savagely and brutally raped, you’ll take solace in knowing that his previous victims at least had guilt-free abortions?
I don’t see you supporting the pro-life cause at all. I see you blindly supporting your constituency.
By all means; take the floor and set “Reality” straight on the issue. Show me how it’s done.
I just love how the liberals here are insisting that someone can be a ‘victim’ of consensual sex, but fail to see how someone can be a victim of a rapist that could be, and SHOULD be, behind bars.
You guys sure are “pro-woman”.
Far be it from me to think it’s more important to get rapists off the streets than it is to make sure someone is comfortable about killing their child…
Like I said, we’re just splitting hairs. Incestuous rape is still incest, it’s not “special” but considering it is often long term and involves betrayal by a family member, it certainly does affect reporting and may have compounded damage. Rape by a family member is still being victimized by incest, so I don’t get what we’re arguing about.
“So, if you or someone you love very dearly is savagely and brutally raped, you’ll take solace in knowing that his previous victims at least had guilt-free abortions?”
I’ve been brutally raped, repeatedly at that. Since the previous victims were male, they couldn’t have abortions, but they never reported. I don’t bear them any ill will though. I certainly don’t call them selfish for not reporting, because that’s freaking cruel. I wouldn’t call them selfish if they were female victims who aborted, guilt free or not. I don’t think it’s my place as a pro-lifer to make someone feel “guilty”, that comes from within anyway. It’s my place to attempt to make abortion illegal.
I haven’t voted Democrat in a grip, so I don’t know what you’re implying there. I just think it’s ridiculous to claim that the Democratic party supports “consesnsual” adult incest.
I don’t feel like arguing with Reality about abortion, him and I have both been here for years and go back and forth periodically. I’m just saying, if you want to make an argument against abortion, especially in the case of rape, going on tangents about how selfish people who are victimized by sex crimes are if they don’t report doesn’t further our cause at all. And it’s like kicking someone while they are down. With steel-toed boots.
Oh, good! That means you can explain it. – sure. It is the democrat attitude that people live in freedom, with the ability to control their own lives. Republicans seek to control people, to make them live according to a narrow view.
You’re evading your error again. – there’s no error for me to evade. You and others are in fact and in deed attempting to control womens reproductive rights and freedoms.
You can’t abort a child that hasn’t been reproduced. – no but you can abort one which is gestating. Do you think that the reproductive process is complete when a zygote is formed? If reproduction is finished, why not deliver it then?
No, I have no desire to force women to reproduce, or deny them the right to reproduce. – oh, so you’re not anti-choice?
The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced. – I refer you to my question re zygotes.
Oh? I would LOVE to say what science has to say about marriage. Cite your sources, please. – oh look, a little more disingenuousness. You referred to incestuous marriage and that is what I responded to.
Also, I’m a libertarian. I don’t believe the government should sanction ANY marriage. – so you don’t oppose same-sex marriage on the basis that it’s same-sex then. Good.
You mean banning the homicide of innocent children? Yes. I’m a fan of banning that. – and here I was thinking we were discussing abortion.
No more than laws against rape are an imposition to men’s lives. – I already informed you that rape is a crime and has a victim.
For the most part, yes. – you seem confused.
Yes, that explains why abortion is slowly but surely being legislated out of legality. – certain things have been gotten away with by the anti-choices and their cavalcade of political clowns. It’s just about reached the point of overreach. Effect enough women and it will rebound on you.
So, if abortion is illegalized, it will be a crime, won’t it? – anything labelled illegal is a crime, right or wrong. You know, like women voting and mixed race marriages were.
And abortion DOES have a victim. It’s funny to watch you bang your head against the wall trying to support something you obviously know nothing about. – LOL. I’m not the one making the same mistake and expecting a different outcome.
Your ball is deflated. You might want to use some of that glue to stick a patch on it.
Would you say that to a bisexual? – not generally speaking. They’ve decided they like it both ways. You on the other hand, appear to be hedging your bets.
Explain how that is a platitude or diatribe. – for a start, your claim “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” is simply untrue. Women can report their rape and get an abortion. I’d rather they did report but when they don’t there are good, genuine reason for not doing so. You fail to take that into account. You won’t recognize it. But please, put your little quote on a placard and go wave it about in the streets. Enjoy the response.
Good. Then you can explain how. – see above.
Gee, ya got me there… – apparently. If what I said was worth a ‘BOOM”, yours equated to a little ’tish’.
Are you denying that abortion is homicide? – your question isn’t relevant to the statement I made.
Tick-tock, Dear. ;) – yes I know. Tick tock, tick tock. And then the ticking stops and everyone will find out what you’ve metaphorically dropped into the lap of the republican party. They won’t like that.
That’s not pro-life. – the problem you have there is that what you take it to mean doesn’t dictate what other people identify as. Are you anti death penalty?
In other words, you can’t support your claim. – more a case of you failing to understand. How about you try to support your claim that “Your cause, and everything you’re fighting for will be nothing but another shameful sh*tstain on the underwear of human history.” Do try.
I’ve supported everything I’ve said. – pfft. Adding ad hominems and strawmen to your little diatribes of platitudes does not support them to anyone but yourself.
Hmm… More ‘rubber vs. glue.’ It’s getting old, Dear. – hence your penchant for rubber and glue presumably. Makes sense.
How will a woman not reporting a rape help to stop a rapist? – show me where I said it would. What I said was “well I suppose if you are going to state something as inane as “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” you might not recognize your own mistake.” And now you’ve just dug yourself a little deeper.
People are arrested for domestic violence. What good does not reporting it do? – who said it did? Oh well, if you can’t or won’t answer the original question that’s fine.
By all means; take the floor and set “Reality” straight on the issue. Show me how it’s done – bwah! it’s quite obvious who needs to be set straight on this issue.
I just love how the liberals here are insisting that someone can be a ‘victim’ of consensual sex, but fail to see how someone can be a victim of a rapist that could be, and SHOULD be, behind bars. – are you being genuinely disingenuous or do you have basic comprehension issues? Are you freely choosing to display such utter ignorance of the impacts of rape and incest on the victims? Or is it all just about you wanting people to line up in your “paint by numbers book of life.”
http://www.upworthy.com/people-freak-out-when-he-hits-her-in-public-watch-what-happens-when-she-hits-him
Man appearing to be beating on a woman gets consistent intervention.
When it’s a woman appearing to be beating on a man, the reaction from passers-by and bystanders is much different. At least one third-party person even joined in by taking a shot or two at the guy….
@Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer
If a brother & sister have consensual sex, it’s disgusting, but involves no victim. If one rapes the other, then there is a victim of rape – not incest. You’re the one who took exception to my question “How can an adult be a victim of incest?”. You failed to see a “charitable interpretation of what I said”, now I’ve shown you that no interpretation was necessary. It was never a big deal to me.
I myself was a victim of sexual assault, and when I was young, I witnessed unspeakable acts done to young children. I was old enough to KNOW what was happening, but not old enough to fully UNDERSTAND. I confided in an adult that I trusted, and this adult told a few others. They assured me that it wasn’t my fault, and I was a ‘good boy’ for telling someone… But nothing was done, and the crimes continued. More children were victimized.
If I had gone directly to the authorities, would it have been stopped? Maybe, maybe not… But I would have taken action. Some people were more concerned with my feelings than putting a stop to the abuse.
All of their reassuring pats on the shoulder turned to knives in my back, and their kisses turned to spit in my face. I’m wracked with guilt.
Excuse me if I seem a bit ‘jaded’ about touchy-feelies taking precedent over solution.
@Reality
Your entire argument can be debunked by the following:
====
“We talk of human development not because a jumble of cells, which is perhaps initially atypical, gradually turns more and more into a human, but rather because the human being develops from a uniquely human cell. There is no state in human development prior to which one could claim that a being exists with not-yet-human individuality. On the basis of anatomical studies, we know today that no developmental phase exists that constitutes a transition from the not-yet-human to the human.”
“In short, a fertilized egg (conceptus) is already a human being.”
Erich Blechschmidt, Brian Freeman, The Ontogenetic Basis of Human Anatomy: The Biodynamic Approach to Development from Conception to Adulthood, North Atlantic Books, June 2004. pp 7,8
====
“Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
“A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).”
Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 8th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. pp. 15, 2
====
“Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a ‘moment’) is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.”
Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Müller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8
====
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”
Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3
====
“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3
====
“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.”
Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43
====
Dr. Jerome Lejeune of Paris, France was a medical doctor, a Doctor of Science and a professor of Fundamental Genetics for over twenty years. Dr. Lejeune discovered the genetic cause of Down Syndrome, receiving the Kennedy Prize for the discovery and, in addition, received the Memorial Allen Award Medal, the world’s highest award for work in the field of Genetics. He is often called the “Father of Modern Genetics”. The following are some notable statements by him:
“After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”
– 1989 court testimony in Tennessee, cf. also Louisiana Legislature’s House Committee on the Administration of Criminal Justice on June 7, 1990
“The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.”
– The Subcommittee on Separation of Powers, Report to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th
Congress, First Session, 1981
====
“Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being – a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.”
– The official Senate report from Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981
Background on the Committee testifiers:
A group of internationally-known biologists and geneticists appeared to speak on behalf of the scientific community on the subject of when a human being begins. They all presented the same view and there was no opposing testimony. Among those testifying:
Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School
Dr. Jerome Lejeune (“Father of Modern Genetics”)
Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee
Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine
Dr. Richard V. Jaynes
Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the “Father of In Vitro Fertilization”
Professor Eugene Diamond
Gordon, Hymie, M.D., F.R.C.P., Chairman of Medical Genetics, Mayo Clinic, Rochester
C. Christopher Hook, M.D. Oncologist, Mayo Clinic, Director of Ethics Education, Mayo Graduate School of Medicine
.
====
You display a distinct lack of knowledge and understanding of how some cases of incest progress and are conducted Chris.
What gives you the right to demand that victims of rape report when you have no knowledge or understanding of how the victim is already impacted and may be further impacted.
What you proffer as a ‘solution’ ain’t necessarily so.
@Doug
That’s typical. :/
Would you like to attempt to explain how any of what you have cited disagrees with anything I’ve said?
Hey Chris,
I’m sorry that you weren’t helped and other children weren’t protected from the abusers. It’s not fair to judge yourself because adults failed to protect children. The adults in my life either actively aided or covered up the abuse, so I get where your anger is coming from. You shouldn’t be directing it at yourself for being a kid stuck in a bad situation, though.
And it doesn’t change the fact that there are multiple reasons why victims don’t report, and telling them they are selfish and that they caused the assaults that a rapist committed is just cruel. You seem to be underestimating (or perhaps being too hard on yourself, and projecting that to other victims?) the way trauma damages the victim and makes reporting difficult, especially in ongoing situations where they feel trapped and may be threatened. I never reported my main abuser because by the time I had healed enough from the trauma to handle it, he died before I was able to. I was seventeen when the abuse stopped, and 24 when he died. If he had abused someone in that time, I don’t think it was my fault. I think it would be his, because not only was he the one assaulting someone, he damaged his previous victims to the extent that they couldn’t come forward for a long time.
That’s what you’re not looking at. You’re turning your righteous anger and determination to protect people from abuse on the victims, instead of at the rapist. You’re making the world just a little less supportive of the victims coming forward if you do that. People need help coming forward, they don’t need to be browbeaten. Ashamed people tend to keep MORE secrets, not less. And abortions are a part of that, shaming rape victims is pretty likely, imo,to cause more to abort.
I have contempt for the adults you mentioned that didn’t stop the abuse you spoke of, though. They weren’t the targets of the abuser and should have protected children.
And about the incest argument, incestuous rape is still incest. I don’t know why you insist on arguing this point, when it’s literally still incest even if it’s rape. I don’t know why we are arguing semantics here.
The word ‘incest’ is not ‘needed’ in the minor rape exception, but it does no harm
It’s needed because different states use different terms to categorize sexual crimes. In some states, the word “rape” is used exclusively to mean non-consensual sexual penetration, while sexual abuse by a relative is criminalized under a different degree of sexual battery or a statute on incest. This protects victims of incest by forestalling a defense effort to claim that the relationship was consensual. However, if “incest” were not explicitly included as a reason for obtaining an abortion post-20 weeks, pro-lifers in states that categorize “rape” and “incest” differently would claim that a victim of incest who was over the age of consent in her state had not been the victim of rape, and therefore could not legally have an abortion past 20 weeks.
He was caught not long ago tweeting I love you during the state of the union address to a very young girl. Then he said that he just found out she was his daughter.
She was 24, according to the article you linked, and he had believed her to be his daughter for three years. Even granted that pro-lifers have long championed the cause of requiring the law to treat women as children, in what world is a 24-year-old a “very young girl?”
But anyway, I think it’s a huge stretch to say the Democratic party is advocating incest. Like, so much of a reach that Stretch Armstrong couldn’t make it, lol.
General rule of thumb: when an headline spells “Democratic Party” as “Democrat Party,” whatever follows is going to be pretty shoddy reporting.
It proves that abortion has nothing to do with what a woman does with her own body. It proves that abortion is homicide.
…And as I had stated above, I DO know what it’s like to be assaulted and frightened.
You have nothing but catch-phrases. Let me know when you have any science to support your holocaust.
@LisaC
I would love to see you try to justify your claim that pro-lifers want women to be treated as children.
@Deluded
Don’t presume to speak on my behalf – my anger is aimed DIRECTLY at the victimizers.
You and your liberal friends just took one sentence out of context. My point this entire time was that justice is EVERYONE’S responsibility.
RE: Incest
Yes, but no one is a VICTIM of incest – if it’s incestuous rape, then they are a victim of rape.
YOU are the one who keeps dragging it out.
You made a mistake. Let it go.
I’m not speaking on your behalf, I was trying to understand your point. You say you’re wracked with guilt, I don’t personally believe you should feel guilty for adults failing to take you seriously as a child, but it’s your life. I share your anger at victimizers.
And I didn’t make a mistake, being victimized by incestuous rape is still being victimized by incest. But this isn’t a productive conversation so I’ll let it go.
If you say things like those who don’t report themselves being abused are selfish, with no regard for the circumstances surrounding the abuse, you’re going to get backlash. Picking on abuse victims is a good way to turn everyone you wanna reach against you, and the message won’t be heard.
Good day to you, I wish you the best.
It proves that abortion has nothing to do with what a woman does with her own body. – no it doesn’t. Not in the least. How did you come to that conclusion?
It proves that abortion is homicide. – it doesn’t do that either. Block quoting bits that tell us that when a human sperm bumps into a human egg the product of conception is human and then goes on to grow and develop bears no resemblance to your claims. Or your denials.
…And as I had stated above, I DO know what it’s like to be assaulted and frightened. – for you. Not for anyone else.
You have nothing but catch-phrases. – not as many as you :-)
Let me know when you have any science to support your holocaust. – that’s an impossible task. There is no science to support claims of a holocaust in regards to abortion.
Yes, but no one is a VICTIM of incest – if it’s incestuous rape, then they are a victim of rape. – if that wasn’t one of the saddest claims I’ve seen for a while it’d be extremely funny.
You made a mistake. Let it go.
@Reality
“no it doesn’t. Not in the least. How did you come to that conclusion?”
Yes it does. Women don’t abort their uterus; they abort their children.
It doesn’t do that either. Block quoting bits that tell us that when a human sperm bumps into a human egg the product of conception is human and then goes on to grow and develop bears no resemblance to your claims. Or your denials.
It states very clearly that human life begins from conception. Not liking facts doesn’t disprove them.
“for you. Not for anyone else.”
OK.
“not as many as you”
Hmm. More ‘rubber vs glue.’
“that’s an impossible task. There is no science to support claims of a holocaust in regards to abortion.”
Denying facts doesn’t disprove them.
“if that wasn’t one of the saddest claims I’ve seen for a while it’d be extremely funny.”
*yawn*
You’re just whining.
You’re entitled to your own opinion. Not your own facts.
Reality’s not politically correct, Dear. Grow up, and come to terms with it.
Yes it does. Women don’t abort their uterus; they abort their children. – are you suffering an intentional or unintentional ignorance of the facts?
It states very clearly that human life begins from conception. Not liking facts doesn’t disprove them. – I haven’t disputed that a human conception is human. But in no way does the tracts of tracts you supplied demonstrate what you have claimed of it.
And you most definitely haven’t demonstrated how any of the guff you cited disagrees with what I had been saying before you posted it. Because you can’t.
OK. – oh look, reason.
Hmm. More ‘rubber vs glue.’ – do you have some sort of fetish?
Denying facts doesn’t disprove them. – you haven’t presented any facts in regard to this, remember.
You’re just whining. – I think it’s obvious where the whining is coming from. If you told a psychiatrist, psychologist or qualified counsellor that “no one is a victim of incest” they’d suggest you hang around for a few helpful sessions.
You’re entitled to your own opinion. Not your own facts. – oh wow, look. Isn’t that just so clever. A trite bon mot!
Reality’s not politically correct, Dear. – at least I’m correct.
Grow up, and come to terms with it. – wow, and a vacuous ad hominem to wind it all up. Come to terms with the fact that you have failed, entirely, to demonstrate anything valid whatsoever.
“are you suffering an intentional or unintentional ignorance of the facts?” = DENIAL OF FACTS
I haven’t disputed that a human conception is human. But in no way does the tracts of tracts you supplied demonstrate what you have claimed of it.” = DENIAL OF FACTS
“And you most definitely haven’t demonstrated how any of the guff you cited disagrees with what I had been saying before you posted it. Because you can’t.” = DENIAL OF FACTS
“oh look, reason.” = DEFLECTION
“do you have some sort of fetish?” = DEFLECTION
“I think it’s obvious where the whining is coming from. If you told a psychiatrist, psychologist or qualified counsellor that “no one is a victim of incest” they’d suggest you hang around for a few helpful sessions.” = RUBBER VS GLUE, DEFLECTION
“oh wow, look. Isn’t that just so clever. A trite bon mot!” = DEFLECTION
“at least I’m correct.” = UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM
“wow, and a vacuous ad hominem to wind it all up. Come to terms with the fact that you have failed, entirely, to demonstrate anything valid whatsoever.” = DISTRACTION, DENIAL
Come back with some facts. Your desperate platitudes & catch-phrases are demonstrably impertinent.
DENIAL OF FACTS (1) – well obviously that’s what you’re doing. That’s why I asked the question I did.
Let’s go back a step – you stated It proves that abortion has nothing to do with what a woman does with her own body. to which I responded “no it doesn’t. Not in the least. How did you come to that conclusion?”
Given that both abortion does have something to do with what a woman does to her own body and that the stuff you quoted says nothing at all about that particular concept; how did you come to such a conclusion?
DENIAL OF FACTS (2) – unless you can show me where those tracts stated “abortion is homicide” or demonstrated such in any way…..
DENIAL OF FACTS (3) – You claimed that the waffle you posted from several sources debunked my entire argument.
Let’s see.
Does it debunk that “It is the democrat attitude that people live in freedom, with the ability to control their own lives. Republicans seek to control people, to make them live according to a narrow view” ? Hm, no it doesn’t.
Does it debunk “You and others are in fact and in deed attempting to control womens reproductive rights and freedoms.”? That’d be a no.
What about “no but you can abort one which is gestating. Do you think that the reproductive process is complete when a zygote is formed? If reproduction is finished, why not deliver it then?” Evidently not.
Skipping ahead a bit, how about “your claim “you want men to get away with rape just so women can feel good about killing their children” is simply untrue.”? No, it doesn’t debunk that either.
Shall we tackle some more or can you see where this is going?
DEFLECTION (1) – from what?
DEFLECTION (2) – and your ‘rubber vs glue’ line is meant to be what exactly?
RUBBER VS GLUE, DEFLECTION – coe blimey, a twofer! So you’d be happy to run around with a sign declaring “No one is a victim of incest”? Go on, I dare you.
DEFLECTION (hm, shall we call this one 3 or 4) – the phrase you used is in fact a bon mot. And it qualifies as trite. It was also untrue.
UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM – oh look a new term. Goody! Since you have been unable to refute or disprove anything I have said during the course of this discussion I’d say it speaks for itself.
DISTRACTION, DENIAL – do you get discount when you use two terms together? Distraction from what? Denial of what?
Come back with some facts. – why provide more? You haven’t dealt with any of the facts I’ve already provided you with. You certainly haven’t demonstrated any of them to be false.
Your desperate platitudes & catch-phrases are demonstrably impertinent. – oo er, look at you! Your May 18, 2015 at 2:19 am post is what is impertinent.
I learned how to deal with tantrum throwers over thirty years ago…..Dear.
You’ve provided no facts.
Prove that laws against abortion control women any more than laws against rape control men.
I already proved that human life begins at conception, therefore abortion is homicide. Prove otherwise.
All you’re doing is denying, deflecting, belching out platitudes and unsubstantiated claims, and whining.
My source is science. Your source is bumper stickers.
Come back with facts, please.
OMG, so I’ve been viewing the mobile version of JillStanek.com & have completely missed the accompanying picture of infamous Star Wars siblings Luke & Leia kissing (in the Empire Strikes Back)! :P Boy I can remember some hot discussions & even a fan site which had fun w/ satire over the scandalous kiss (until they received a C&D letter from LucasFilm :P), following the Special Edition release in 1997.
*Ahem* That’s not to say I condone incest by any means, consensual or not, it was just ironically humorous (& scandalous to fans) what occured between Luke & Leia in the SW movies only because they didn’t know they were siblings & didn’t know better.
You’ve provided no facts. – that’s cute coming from someone who displays such an alarming level of ignorance of human physiology that they claim that abortion has nothing to do with what a woman does with her own body. Since the democrats in general support such policies as womens reproductive rights and equality and freedom from discrimination for same-sex folk whilst republicans generally don’t. it is obviously a fact that it is the democrat attitude that people live in freedom, with the ability to control their own lives. Republicans seek to control people, to make them live according to a narrow view.
Prove that laws against abortion control women any more than laws against rape control men. – if you had been paying attention, or if your level of comprehension was up to scratch, you would be aware that I didn’t say otherwise. What I said was that rape is illegal and has a victim. Laws against rape protect others and cause no damage to the would be perpetrator. Such is not the case for abortion.
I already proved that human life begins at conception, therefore abortion is homicide. – no, you haven’t. You provided a ream of medical quotes that prove that life begins at conception. It contained nothing which proved that abortion is homicide.
Prove otherwise. – you haven’t proven anything for me to disprove.
All you’re doing is denying, deflecting, belching out platitudes and unsubstantiated claims, and whining. – rubber vs glue.
My source is science. Your source is bumper stickers. – the only thread of science you have provided is that when a human sperm bumps into a human egg the product of conception is human and then goes on to grow. That’s it, nothing else. None of what I have said appears on bumper stickers. Much of what you have said however, appears on numerous placards waved on sidewalks.
Come back with facts, please. – why provide more? You haven’t dealt with any of the facts I’ve already provided you with. You certainly haven’t demonstrated any of them to be false.
Ladybug, the funny thing is that Luke and Leia were never meant to be siblings originally. Lucas was planning a Luke/Leia thing instead of Leia/Han. It got changed in the next movie, and the infamous kiss made things a bit awkward, ha.
Sorry, I’m a huge Star Wars nerd. :P