Remembering Baby Rowan

rowan1b.jpg

I'm really sorry I just missed the second anniversary of Baby Rowan's death.

Baby Rowan was aborted alive into a toilet on April 2, 2005, at one of abortionist James Pendergraft's late-term abortion mills, EPOC Clinic, in Orlando, FL.

By dates, Rowan was 22-6/7 weeks old, just 1 day shy of conventional wisdom's current line of viability (although Amillia Taylor was recently born at 21 weeks at a Miami hospital and survived).

I received an anguished email from Rowan's mother Angele several days after the abortion and wrote about what happened. I later met Angele, a warm, loving, and tortured woman. Here is what she relayed to me....

rowan2.jpgAngele had belatedly decided to abort. She traveled out of state to undergo a late-term abortion, in this case the induced labor abortion procedure.

The abortionist gave her a medication to irritate and open her cervix the first day, then she spent the night at a hotel and returned to the mill to complete the procedure the next day.

Angele felt like having a bowel movement and went to the bathroom. Baby Rowan was delivered alive in the toilet. Angele wrote me, "The very moment I saw my son was alive, nothing else in the whole world mattered but Rowan's safety! I fell immediately in love with my baby boy and was afraid of nothing that I ever feared before. Only one thing mattered to me: getting Rowan help. I begged, repeatedly."

Angele begged abortion clinic worker Violene to get help, but Violene shut the bathroom door on Angele and little Rowan, along with "blood everywhere," as Angele later said.

Angele panicked and called her friend who was awaiting her return at the hotel. The friend called 911. You used to be able to hear that call here, but YouTube has apparently removed it. While waiting for help, Angele held her baby and sang to him. But no help came, and Rowan died after 11 minutes.

rowan3b.jpgMeanwhile clinic workers turned the ambulance drivers away at the front door, saying not to worry, the call was just placed by a hysterical patient.

After much prodding, the state finally autopsied the baby. The medical examiner said it did not look like air entered Rowan's lungs, although babies can live for quite some time without that appearance.

The ME did not test Rowan's blood to see if the abortionist had tried to kill him before starting the abortion. Sometimes they do this by visualizing the baby's heart on ultrasound and injecting medication through the mother's abdomen into the baby's heart that causes instant cardiac arrest.

Angele's attorney took these photos of Rowan at the morgue. To read more articles and columns about Rowan, go here, here, here, and here.

Hat tip: Marilyn, Patte]


Comments:

Oh Jill,what an absolutely heartbreaking story.I feel for this child's mother too.I truly feel that a lot of women are totally ignorant to the abortion procedure and outcome{ 14 year old Kelly, from George Tiller's kill mill, comes to mind]I've never been to an abortion clinic in my life,so I wouldn't know what women are told about the procedure itself.Apparently not enough!This child could have been born and given to loving adoptive parents.Who knows what he could have been? Totally tragic!

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 10:08 AM


I read that James Pendergraft's clinic had been closed.Would you happen to know,Jill?

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 10:28 AM


Wasn't there a bunch of people on here yesterday touting the fact that these abortions are ONLY done for the health of the mother.

I suppose they'll stick to their story even with the evidence right in front of them.

Well, it was this mother's choice to abort her son, and it was the nurse Violenes (How like angel and violence these names are) choice not to call 911. And it was 911's choice to send a police car instead of an ambulance...

So many choices, so little time.

Go-choice, Pro-choice, Rah, Rah, Rah !!!!

Sleep tight Rowan, and God Bless.
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 10:46 AM


Right MK.Besides how many times can we keep justifying,ignoring,making excuses,saying things like "It was never a human."Calling a murder a "choice." CHOICERS, The evidence is right in front of your face!

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 10:56 AM


I agree that it was wrong of the clinic to not call for an ambulance...that woman could have bled to death for all they knew.

*shakes head*

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 10:59 AM


Mom, 10:28a: Pendergraft did have a mill closed, and then I thought it was scheduled to reopen. But when I was researching this post today I saw my original link to his mills from my column two years ago said there were six. But the link now shows only five. Bottom line: I think so but am not sure.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:01 AM


I must agree with you again Rae.If this is a medical facility,then a patient should never be denied an ambulance.An abortion clinic in my area closed last October/November.The abortionist botched an abortion on a young woman.He had to call 911 because he was not able to stop her internal bleeding.The arrogant abortionist never even bothered to draw up emergency transfer agreements.His 911 tape was documented.He screams to the 911 operator "I want you to get her[the pt.]OUT of here!!"The health dept.closed him down.This clinic wasn't even recording vital signs prior to the ab procedure.

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 11:12 AM


PS.Just so you don't think I made that up,his name is Dr.Martin Ruddock.

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 11:14 AM


Well that's good. Clinics that are like that shouldn't even be open anyway. They weren't even recording vital signs? Cripes, when I had my wisdom teeth pulled they had me hooked up to a pulse/ox monitor and a blood pressure monitor to make sure I didn't croak in my sleep getting them suckers out.

That's just a disgrace that they feel it's ok to do that. In my opinion, I would prefer that only hospitals performed abortions (out of concern for the woman getting the abortion, to ensure she gets proper medical care), because at least hospitals are more tightly regulated (as far as I know, though I am probably wrong) than free-standing clinics.

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:16 AM


Ps.Dr.Ruddock also admitted that more that 1/2 of partial birth abortions were done as an elective procedure.In other words-NO maternal medical reason whatsoever!!Google his name and see for yourself.

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 11:22 AM


One more thing Rae[then I'm going out to grab a sandwich] I used to think that an abortion clinic was like a mini-hospital too.I have been finding out otherwise.My podiatrist takes more precautions.

Posted by: momof at April 11, 2007 11:26 AM


The reality that abortion is murder will not change. Therefore, things said in previous posts about abortion are still true and applicable to this article as well, so, I'll repeat myself, with some editing license taken of course.

You have to realize that pro-deathers are not driven by logic. They are driven by the lust for power, perhaps abortion followers without realizing it, but its leaders and initiaters, guilty as hell.

They are no different than the poor man who fantasizes about taking the rich man's watch without regard to how or why the rich man acquired the watch; while poor materially, they lack no prejudice. They feel totally justified in their position, not becasue of logic but in some sinister form of perverted self-righteousness not thoroughly arrived at, at having simply arrived. Perhaps this itself feeds the power demon inside them, at just being able to arrive, at joining up: "I'm in the club now and no one will every kick me out, not even me".

They reject anyone or anything in authority that would tell them how to live including God Himself and it's generally masked in the facade of women's rights. Which when you analyze it, it is a very parasitical way of thinking. I mean, they kill unborn baby woman too don't they? How dare they use the issue of abortion to bolster their sense of self-hood. Again, the perverted, twisted and demented logic shows its ugly head from every angle of the looking glass. Ah, but they see in a mirror darkly? No, the light's off.

So, when they acknowledge the horror of a baby cooking video, or talk about how bad kicking a dead baby in a bag is, or allowing a baby to die in a toilet in an abortion deathatorium despite the pleas of the mother for the baby's life, they really are acknowledging the horror of abortion since to not do so would be illogical. What they fail to realize is that in doing so, they for a moment remove their masks, and their K-9 fangs show through the sheepskin, scaring even themselves. Does a werewolf know who he is?

So, I ask myself, if we disparage ourselves of the silliness and really take a deep look, what is abortion? Here's what I, HisMan, think it is:

Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator.

Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, to show forth His glory, it negates God as redeemer.

Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy.

Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it's earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it's earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive.

Abortion's desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness, decay, death.

Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it's solution; annihilation, it's goal; death, it's dream; breaking God's heart, it's vision, satan's ultimate power. Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of satan are everywhere to be found in its performance.

Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom.

Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God.

Yes, Abortion is satan's feeble attempt at killing God himself, for Abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him......for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.

It did not work at Calvary. It will not work here.

And who is this person named Abortion? It is everyone who has committd it, chose it, performed it, and supported it.

Thank God, Abortion can be transformed by saying: "Lord forgive me, for I knew not what I had done". Amen.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:39 AM


I think that there should be more enforcement for late-term abortions, honestly. They should have decided by first or second trimester whether they wanted to abort. By the time the child is mostly developed, ONLY health of the mother should be the reason. I believe that the problem here lies in the lack of law enforcement.

I hope for a time where abortions can become illegal. My plan for compromise may take a while to implement, but it's what I think would be a long term solution to the problem.

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 11, 2007 12:56 PM


PIP,I agree with you.What's going on with law enforcement and these clinics? Are they in cahoots? Are there pay offs going on? Look at everything LeRoy Carhart gets away with.The average citizen would never get away with it.His Man,Jill,Bethany,MK,PIP....anyone have an idea?

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 1:06 PM


Rae, 11:16a, said: "I would prefer that only hospitals performed abortions (out of concern for the woman getting the abortion, to ensure she gets proper medical care), because at least hospitals are more tightly regulated (as far as I know, though I am probably wrong) than free-standing clinics."

That ain't gonna happen, Rae. Guttmacher reports the # of abortions in hospitals is falling. As of last year, only 5% of all abortions were committed in hospitals. (www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/providers.html).

There's a stigma attached to abortion no amount of time will lessen. Medical personnel want nothing to do with it. As I've said, only failures commit abortion. Hospitals don't want the bad PR and pickets. No kid aspires to grow up to be an abortionist.

And yes, hospitals are scads more regulated than abortion mills, but then again, abortion mills are less regulated than animal clinics, thanks to pressure from the abortion industry.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 1:14 PM


"What's going on with law enforcement and these clinics? Are they in cahoots? Are there pay offs going on?"
I have no idea. It's weird that these laws are enacted but in reality this stuff still occurs without justice. One would think that only heartless people would want to abort so late in the pregnancy (minus health reasons), much less the doctors who actually perform them.

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 11, 2007 1:19 PM


Jill -

You are right about animal hospitals and abortions mills. Especially if the Animal Hospital is a member of AAHA. (American animal hospital association.) If any animal hospital I ever worked at had the report that the MMA in New Jersey had, we wouldn't have reopened! What the health officials found at MMA won't even be found at equine hospitals were everything is done in a barn!

This story about Rowan breaks my heart. I never knew the details (I think I didn't know on purpose) and I can't even comprhend most of it.

Posted by: Valerie Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 2:27 PM


I would venture to say that the majority of pro-choicers, including myself, are very much opposed to elective late term abortions. In my forum of nearly 100,000 pro choicers, I've yet to encounter a single one who does not support the current legislation that 3rd trimester abortions should be allowed only in cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy or there is something very wrong with the fetus (encephaly, harliquenism, etc).

In order to eliminate the demand for late-term abortions, legal or illegal, I think hospitals should perform elective C-sections on women 22 weeks and over and allow them to anonomously put their baby up for adoption, similar to the laws that permit women to drop off newborns at certain locations. This would not only reduce the incidence of late term abortions, but also post-birth infanticide - the people who throw their newborns in trash cans or bury them and try to pretend like they were never pregant.

Of course giving them free birth control would also help, because regardless of a person's personal view of birth control, it doesnt benefit ANYONE to force a woman to give birth as punishment for what some may seem as a sinful or promiscuous lifestyle. I saw a 17 year old girl last week who has a 2 year old. She had 1 abortion prior to having her child and has had 2 since. When the hospital she had the first two abortions at refused to give her the third, she went to a local Haitian shaman/witch doctor/whatever the PC term is and had an abortion for 150 bucks. After she told me she couldn't afford the pill and condoms were smelly, I asked her what she would do if she got pregnant again. She told me she'd go back to the shaman, because it was "cheaper than the hospital and more natural anyway".

This is the type of situation that makes me want to bang my head against a wall. This goes to show that legislature against abortion is meaningless if we're not addressing the factors that get these girls in to these situations in the first place...and trust me, it wasn't liberal sex ed that got her here - because if that was the case, atleast she'd be using condoms.

Posted by: Amanda at April 11, 2007 3:36 PM


Amanda -

A few points:

"I think hospitals should perform elective C-sections on women 22 weeks and over and allow them to anonomously put their baby up for adoption,"

All I've heard from Pro-Choicers is that the reason late term abortions are done is because having a severely pramature baby wasn't fair to the infant. All the problems S/he would have. All the after care. Now your suggesting to do what all us pro-lifers have been saying all along? How can having a premature baby be okay today when it wasn't yesterday? What changed? After all the talk about how horrible it is that the little girl that was born around 22 weeks survived. All her problems. Of course we would agree with you on this, it is just what we have been screaming since 1973.

"Of course giving them free birth control would also help"

Doesn't planned parenthood already do this? If memory serves they have a sliding scale so people who cannot afford it get it for free and people who could afford a little pay $10 and so on....

"After she told me she couldn't afford the pill and condoms were smelly,"

Lets get this straight. She can't afford the pill but she can afford 3 abortions. Lets use some common sense here. She can get money somewhere. And if she won't wear condoms because they are 'smelly', then alot more than sex ed is what failed her. Where are her parents? Grandparents?

"it wasn't liberal sex ed that got her here - because if that was the case, atleast she'd be using condoms. "

But condoms are smelly. Why would liberal sex ed have changed that?

Giving this girl free birth control isn't what she needs.

Posted by: Valerie Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 4:03 PM


First of all - no one was saying the girl born at 21 weeks should have been aborted. The issue we had was that pro-lifers were using her as a poster child for the cause, which is misleading as the vast VAST majority of infants born at that stage die. My point is that if a woman really wants an abortion, she's going to find a way to have one whether its legal or not. Performing a C-section on a viable fetus is certainly a better alternative than a late-term abortion. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a doctor willing to perform an elective C section on a teenager with no money and no health insurance. The result? Cases like "baby Rowan" and the dozens and dozens of cases each year of women killing their children soon after birth. What Im trying to say is - if we changed the policy on childbirth and health insurance rather than criminalizing abortion, every one benefits.

I think we have to consider that there is no perfect option, but rather, a preferential option. Using condoms is preferential to no protection at all. Using Plan B is preferential to having a first trimester abortion. Having a first trimester abortion is preferential to having a C section pre term. Having a C section pre term is preferential to a late term abortion. A late term abortion is preferential to stuffing a newborn in a plastic bag and throwing it in a dumpster. Make sense? I mean, it does no good to look at girls like the one I saw last week and say "well she should have done this, or she should have done that". The fact is - she already IS where she is, and hindsight is 20/20. We have to address the situation she is in the best we can. My recommendation to the social worker was to see if we could get a doctor to insert an IUD for her at no charge. We'll see if that happens or not. Where are her parents and grandparents? Who knows? THATS the problem! Who are we to force this girl to have a baby when her life is so clearly messed up to begin with? How can we just self-righteously criminalize abortions without addressing the reasons these girls want abortions in the first place - especially knowing they know where to go for an abortion even if they are illegal?

In this girls case, the father of the baby paid for the first 2 - this is on record at the hospital she had them at. She claims her cousin paid for the 3rd, but she was recently arrested for shoplifting, so it wouldnt really surprise me if the money was obtained in a not-so-legal way.

Posted by: Amanda at April 11, 2007 4:25 PM


No, no, no, no, no, no, and again no.

All abortions everywhere, every time and under every circumstance are wrong. If you give in to the deception that there should be limits on late term abortions you are implying that all other abortions are acceptable. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, forever no. All abortion is wrong and should be stopped immediately.

Are you trying to tell me that size matters to God? Well what about the size of the planet earth compared to the size of the universe? It's a meaningless speck using a pro-abort's analogy and narrow view. In God's view, the earth is of utmost value. Size does not matter to God and the only thing that gives value to anything or anyone is what God thinks about it, not us.

He cares about sparrows too I'm told.

A baby at conception is no different than a baby at 39.999999 weeks.

There's no difference to God, therefore, there should be not difference to us.

God sees a soul and so should we. Souls are infinite and not subject to the confines of space and time and stages of development.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:04 PM


Amanda, 3:36p, said: "3rd trimester abortions should be allowed only in cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy or..."

Let's stop at the "or," Amanda. There is NO medical reason a mother 27 weeks pregnant or more should have an abortion to save her life. Just stop with that nonsense, Amanda. And tell your forum of 100,000 ignorant pro-abort friends that, too. (Yes, ignorant. They spout nonsense rhetoric like lemmings.)

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:16 PM


"Souls are infinite and not subject to the confines of space and time and stages of development."

Alrighty then, His Man. Let's answer this question of a soul. I don't believe in such a concept, particularly the religious viewpoint, but I am interested to hear your thoughts.

1. What is a soul? Is it some kind of spirit?

2. When did we get this soul? When our single-celled ancestors first started replicating themselves in the Precambrian muck? When our ancestors were rodent-marsupials trying not to get eaten in the Jurassic? When the first Australopithecines hopped out of trees 6 million years ago? When the first Homo Erectus bashed rocks together and made cool new tools 2 million years ago? Or was there a point when the light switch came on?

Now for my gratuitous nitpicks.

"All abortions everywhere, every time and under every circumstance are wrong."

Strong absolutism there. I don't seem to remember Jesus ever saying anything about it. God seems to like killing children, too. Open up the OT to one of the prophets, and you'll see God promising to throw babies off city walls and other fun after school activities.

"A baby at conception is no different than a baby at 39.999999 weeks."

No baby at conception. There is a cell. One single cell. It's got a long way to go to becoming a baby.

"In God's view, the earth is of utmost value."

Talked to her, did ye?


Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 6:24 PM


"Let's stop at the "or," Amanda."

I'll continue it... or there is something very wrong with the fetus (encephaly, harliquenism, etc). Sounds like a valid reason to me.

"They spout nonsense rhetoric like lemmings.)"

Look who's talking.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 6:27 PM


Yes, ignorant. They spout nonsense rhetoric like lemmings.)

Are lemmings considered persons?

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:31 PM


2. When did we get this soul? When our single-celled ancestors first started replicating themselves in the Precambrian muck? When our ancestors were rodent-marsupials trying not to get eaten in the Jurassic? When the first Australopithecines hopped out of trees 6 million years ago? When the first Homo Erectus bashed rocks together and made cool new tools 2 million years ago? Or was there a point when the light switch came on?


Oh Lando,

Such language !

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:33 PM


Just trying to put the question into perspective.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 6:34 PM


Talked to her, did ye?

The conversation was probably much more interesting than when you got your facts from Neanderthals. Of course, they probably spoke nice and slow, so's you'd understand the finer points.

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:35 PM


"Are lemmings considered persons?"

Nein...but they don't actually kill themselves on purpose by running off cliffs. No other animal than humans have the capacity for altruism (as far as I know...I could be wrong).

Disney lied.

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:40 PM


Lando,

It's back!

I've got to go out and serve people in need tonight, otherwise I would spend the time answering you since your need seems more immediate and condition much more serious, but perhaps hopeless.

Only a fool says in his heart there is no God. Do you know what a fool is?

I'll answer you later tonight since I am obligated to try to at least reach you. I'm also going to have my group pray for your lost soul tonight, you know the part of you that lives on when it separates from your body and either goes to heaven or hell. Now prayer moves the heart of God, so perhaps, just perhaps.........

Do you think God knows who Lando the Great is? I think He does. Too bad Lando doesn't know who Lando is or what a dangerous precipice he hangs from.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:47 PM


Neanderthals had some good ideas. There was an orator named Throk who was on par with Cicero and Pericles. He had some crazy idea that there was more of the world beyond what we now call the Swiss Alps.

Than homo sapiens came in and killed them all.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 6:47 PM


Were those homo sapiens humans or persons?

Or were they perchance, lemmings?

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:53 PM


Disney lied.

Unfortunately, so did planned parenthood...

dang! and we were getting along so well there for a minute.

All right kiddies, recess is over.
:)
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:55 PM


"Were those homo sapiens humans or persons?"

Dunno. I'm still trying to find out if they had souls or not at that point.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 6:55 PM


there was more of the world beyond what we now call the Swiss Alps.

I think these guys are called Yeti.

You know, rhymes with fetii?

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:56 PM


when did planned parenthood lie, and what does disney killing lemmings have to do with it?

im more interested in hearing more about this Throk guy...

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:56 PM


I'm pretty sure Yeti are in the Himalaya, and they are pronounced "Yet-ee" not "Yet-eye", so it wouldn't rhyme with "fetii".

*shrugs*

Disney also gave me false hopes about love, romance and men.

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:58 PM


and i have to say this HisMan guy kind of bothers my christian sensibilities. he seems vaguely blasphemous, like hes trying to say God love him more or something. thats not what i was taught to believe.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 6:58 PM


Nah, Yeti is the Tibetan version of the legend.

My homies from 40,000 years ago lived in the shadow of the Alps. They called it the Big Wall of the World. Then one Neaderthal had the courage to dream of something more.

Too bad he was struck down by a new marauding subspecies.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 6:59 PM


as a person of color im deeply offended by disney. the only three nonwhite main characters were all incredibly lightskinned, while in every movie the villain is a darker color. i could quote malcolm X right now, but to be honest im far too lazy.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:00 PM


Lando has got to be a fake!

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 7:00 PM


a fake what?

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:00 PM


MK,

Perhaps you can deal with this guy that regrets he was born and that to the human race and says really, really insulting things about God. He thinks he's gonna live 70, maybe 80 years then vanish. Now, that's a real healthy philosophy of life; I didn't count, it's all for naught, in 100 years it won't matter, the earth will fall into the sun and all this stuff, well who cares? Sounds deathy to me, how about you? At least he's consistent in being a pro-abort.

It's too bad. At least if he were born a chimpanzee, he wouldn't be held to account for his ignorance and nobody would take anything he said seriously and he wouldn't be able to lead others astray. Ah, but many fools preceded him. Apparently, it's an easy club to get into.

God does have a sense of humor, doesn't He?

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:01 PM


Michael: Most Disney movies suck anyway. Though I do have a special place in my heart for "Toy Story" and the "Little Mermaid".

Though you have to admit...in Pocahontas...the villian was white, christian and male.

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:02 PM


Amanda, 3:36p, said: "In order to eliminate the demand for late-term abortions, legal or illegal, I think hospitals should perform elective C-sections on women 22 weeks and over..."

Amanda, if you were encouraging girls to place their babies for adoption rather than abort, which you clearly aren't or you'd know this already, you'd know they'd rather abort than adopt.

The crazy fact is they'd rather kill their baby than place the baby. It's an ownership thing. And they're afraid the baby will go to a bad home.

Because they already have that mindset, they're certainly not going to go through the pain of a c-section to place the baby.

The stats I found are that 4% of non-marital births in the US are placed for adoption - about 50,000. Meanwhile, there are 1.3 million abortions.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:04 PM


"A true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies. On the one hand, we are called to play the Good Samaritan on life's roadside, but that will be only an initial act. One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho Road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life's highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring.

A true revolution of values will soon look uneasily on the glaring contrast of poverty and wealth. With righteous indignation, it will look across the seas and see individual capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa, and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries, and say, "This is not just." It will look at our alliance with the landed gentry of South America and say, "This is not just." The Western arrogance of feeling that it has everything to teach others and nothing to learn from them is not just.

A true revolution of values will lay hand on the world order and say of war, "This way of settling differences is not just." This business of burning human beings with napalm, of filling our nation's homes with orphans and widows, of injecting poisonous drugs of hate into the veins of peoples normally humane, of sending men home from dark and bloody battlefields physically handicapped and psychologically deranged, cannot be reconciled with wisdom, justice, and love. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.

America, the richest and most powerful nation in the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There is nothing except a tragic death wish to prevent us from reordering our priorities so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over the pursuit of war. There is nothing to keep us from molding a recalcitrant status quo with bruised hands until we have fashioned it into a brotherhood."

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:04 PM


His Man:

If there is a God, he totally has a sense of humor...case in point: George W. Bush. Chimpanzee or President?

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:05 PM


"in 100 years it won't matter, the earth will fall into the sun and all this stuff,"

More like 4 billion years of so, but that's good enough.

"that regrets he was born"

I'm glad I'm here.

" He thinks he's gonna live 70, maybe 80 years then vanish."

Who knows what happens after death. I don't claim to. I'll figure it out when the time comes. In the meantime, I'll try to do some good while I'm here.

" I didn't count, it's all for naught,"

Hardly. I find more meaning in life knowing that I can make whatever I want out of it than I ever did thinking I was just another way for God to get an ego boost. I intend to live by my code, leave a mark on the world, and maybe help some people out along the way.

Atheism =/=Nihilism.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:05 PM


HisMan, please explain your name to me?

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:05 PM


Micheal is Lando-Lakes is Liam. Now quit foolin round!

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 7:07 PM


I'm pretty sure Michael and I are seperate individuals.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:09 PM


im not lando... really im not.

and its AEL. I spell it the irish way, not the french.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:09 PM


"Most Disney movies suck anyway."

Only the ones following "The Lion King".

The ones Disney and Pixar teamed up on don't count. Those are pretty decent, no matter the year.

Posted by: Heather at April 11, 2007 7:10 PM


His Man, 6:47p: You crack me up! My husband is looking at me funny because I'm laughing so hard at my computer.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:10 PM


i got beef with land-o-lakes too. and aunt jemima. dont get me started on racist logos in corporate america. i will keep talking for at least four straight hours. and im warning you, i really dont have a lot to say, so ill be repeating myself after the first half hour.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:11 PM


wait, HisMan is a girl? im SO confused...

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:11 PM


Don't insult women like that, Michael. :P

Posted by: Alyssa at April 11, 2007 7:13 PM


I can confirm Michael is not Lando unless he has two computers sitting right next to each other.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:13 PM


Lando the Coomon, more proof that you're a fake. You can't read.

"in 100 years it won't matter, the earth will fall into the sun and all this stuff,"

A comma (,) separates the word "matter" and the word "the" in the above referenced sentence, therefore they are separate ideas.

Now I understand why you don't understand, you have a learning disability.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:14 PM


And Michael is much funnier. Lando is... well, with a name like Lando the Great...

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:14 PM


well, the way Jill replied to him made me think so... then again im practically illiterate.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:14 PM


Michael,shut up! Go educate yourself on abortion you wimp! You don't scare me. I think you are 13 maybe 14. Sorry Jill,I couldn't help myself. This guy is so phoney!!!

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 7:15 PM


"Most Disney movies suck anyway. "

Rae, oh no you didn't! Don't go picking on my Disney movies! lol Peter Pan is definitely my favorite. I got the special edition DVD from the boyfriend for Easter. Yay! ^_^

Posted by: Danielle at April 11, 2007 7:15 PM


HisMan, please do explain your name though? not to offend it just seems vaguely prideful...

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:15 PM


His Man, 7:14p: Ok, now my husband is mad because I'm laughing while he's trying to talk to me about his D-Link.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:16 PM


"Now I understand why you don't understand, you have a learning disability."

And just last night you called me wise.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:16 PM


"Michael,shut up! Go educate yourself on abortion you wimp! You don't scare me. I think you are 13 maybe 14. Sorry Jill,I couldn't help myself. This guy is so phoney!!!"

What? what set you off, i dont think ive said ANYTHING mean, and definetly not to you...

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:18 PM


"therefore they are separate ideas."

Not necessarily, commas can also be used to separate clauses in a sentence that continue to clarify the main idea.

My apologies for the misinterpretation.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:18 PM


At first I thought that HisMan was a proud gay person. "His" being the love interest and "man" being whoever the poster is, Phil, I think. Then I got the God reference. lol

Posted by: Danielle at April 11, 2007 7:19 PM


His Man I'm now laughing too! This guy probably got on his parents computer after they left for the evening.

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 7:19 PM


Mom, 7:15p: Why do I think Michael is funny? Is there something about him you see I don't? Maybe the lack of hormones in the Chipotle burrito I ate tonight is causing me to hallucinate.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:20 PM


its kind of funny to me that you think im thirteen. so far all ive done is say i find a lot of the subliminal racism in disney films offensive, and quoted MLK out of my favorite speech because i thought it was appropriate to the moral debate.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:22 PM


Lmfao....

Anyone here for a YOMANK????

And Lando is correct, His Man...your pride just wants you to nitpick every little thing about a person so that you can feel superior. His interpretation of your sentence attests to its ambiguous nature...more a fault of yours than his. Interpretations are different...much like interpretations of the Bible, interpretations of rights, etc.

Posted by: Alyssa at April 11, 2007 7:22 PM


I gave my constitutional and moral arguments last night. Today, I don't give a frak.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:23 PM


see, i havent really heard hisman say much, but the connotation of the name suggests arrogance to me, implying that he is somehow closer to God than his fellow christian, something i was taught is sinful, and i hope this isnt the case, but if it is i cant help feel a little dissapointed with my brother in Christ.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:24 PM


Rats. My college daughter is at dinner, so I can't ask her what YOMANK means. But my finger is on the delete trigger.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:24 PM


Jill, i googled it, it just means you owe me a new keyboard because it made someone laugh so hard they broke it.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:25 PM


YOMANK, I believe, translates into "You owe me a new keyboard."

Posted by: Heather at April 11, 2007 7:25 PM


"Hardly. I find more meaning in life knowing that I can make whatever I want out of it than I ever did thinking I was just another way for God to get an ego boost. I intend to live by my code, leave a mark on the world, and maybe help some people out along the way."

I think I love you.

Seriously.

Posted by: Heather at April 11, 2007 7:27 PM


That's because Lando is a REAL man.

Posted by: Alyssa at April 11, 2007 7:28 PM


"I think I love you."

Back at ya.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:28 PM


Well, isn't this something. Two pro-aborts falling in love on a pro-life site. Next we have to talk about abstinence.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:29 PM


The one post I was actually serious.

Me talk pretty when I want to.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:30 PM


Lando and Michael are examples of men who don't believe women to be walking wombs or gestational devices. Let's give them a hand, free-thinking ladies. :)

Posted by: Alyssa at April 11, 2007 7:30 PM


Michael, HisMan means I belong wholey to Jesus Christ my Lord, without reserve, wihout regret, fearlessley and unashamedley.

Also, I am a dark skinned Italian/Sicilian and I am no stranger to prejudice, however, I threw away that crutch a long time ago when I found out it was made of rubber. You would do well if you dicovered the difference between rubber and Solid Rock. By the way, some of my best friends are African-American, most retired, dex-NFL players. Saw a lot of 'em at my golf tournament this spring.

Michael, I can assure you that my four sons, all champions in their fields of endeavor, know that their dad is no girl. And, my wife knows that too and is very, very grateful.

Alyssa, for once I agree with you. If I were a woman I would be an insult, well, maybe not to Lando. Alyssa, is that a cap on that fang or a just a birth defect?

Gotta go boys and girls and pro-aborts.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:31 PM


hey, i got a moral dillema, anyone want to help?
its related to pregnancy actually.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:31 PM


America, the richest and most powerful nation in the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There is nothing except a tragic death wish to prevent us from reordering our priorities so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over the pursuit of war. There is nothing to keep us from molding a recalcitrant status quo with bruised hands until we have fashioned it into a brotherhood."

Nothing that is, except of course, light skinned lemmings.

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:32 PM


HisMan, wasnt trying to insult you, just asking for clarification. and i dont use race as a crutch, i simply am planning to make a career out of counteracting it.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:32 PM


We'll be sure to invite Jill to the wedding.

Posted by: Lando the Great at April 11, 2007 7:33 PM


"America, the richest and most powerful nation in the world"

*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*

Posted by: Danielle at April 11, 2007 7:34 PM


Jill,I just meant that I was sorry I told him to shut up.I didn't mean to show disrespect.It seemed to me that Michael is answering for Lando-Lakes.

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 7:35 PM


I'm listening, Michael. What is your dilemma?

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:36 PM


the personal attacks have gotten us so far off topic i doubt we can even remember what we were debating without looking at the topic...

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:36 PM


That would be a cap on the fang, His man. I suppose your mouth is full of them. One for each time you hold the rights of a fetus over the rights of the women sacrificing for it.

Posted by: Alyssa at April 11, 2007 7:38 PM


well, my ex girlfriend is pregnant. im reasonably confident that shes planning to keep it, but theres only about a one in six chance that its mine. soo..... we arent on the best of terms and i have no idea whether or not i should even be talking about options with her until its born and DNA tested, but i feel kind of guilty leaving her to go through pregnancy without me, because she has NO support network.

any ideas?

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:38 PM


i suppose i should mention that the girl has a history of drug and alcohol abuse and depression or i wouldnt be as worried about it.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:39 PM


Do you love her?

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:43 PM


far from it im afraid.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:44 PM


Well, the best solution, although unlikely to happen, would be for her to take care of herself while pregnant and place her baby for adoption. The baby doesn't stand the best chance in a single parent home with a mother with abuse and psychological probs. Plus, you're both black?

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:47 PM


no, im mixed, and shes white.

im mostly concerned that she is the type to use or drink during the pregnancy.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:48 PM


ill be back later, i have to go to class now.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:51 PM


Michael, I just checked you out. You have the same email address as someone who posted on the board a month ago named Samantha.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 7:51 PM


Okay Jill. I just went back and saw that you confirmed a separate computer for Lando and Michael.It just seemed like their posts were overlapping for a minute there.

Posted by: momof3 at April 11, 2007 8:02 PM


Alyssa,

50,000,000 fangs? What a dentist's bill. And that's only for the U S of A women I insulted, according to you. Yep, wanted to keep them from doing something that would kill their souls and keep innocent human beings from being killed in the womb.

But talking about fangs please read an earlier post: "So, when they acknowledge the horror of a baby cooking video, or talk about how bad kicking a dead baby in a bag is, or allowing a baby to die in a toilet in an abortion deathatorium despite the pleas of the mother for the baby's life, they really are acknowledging the horror of abortion since to not do so would be illogical. What they fail to realize is that in doing so, they for a moment remove their masks, and their K-9 fangs show through the sheepskin, scaring even themselves. Does a werewolf know who he is?"

Michael, you are a person with a conscience and that's a good thing. The first thing I would do with regards to this girl is to go ask her for forgiveness for having illict sex with her and using her. Please don't think that every girl is like Ayssa and really doesn't mind being courted by a wolf in sheep's cloting, i.e., Lando types.

Killing the baby is also wrong and would be something you would both regret. What do to with the baby after it is born is a decision to be made with godly counsel since not enough known is about your situation and whether or not you're the father. Stay away from the Natal-Nazi Planned Parenthood. They'd just tell you to kill the baby. You know kind of like the final soluition to eerything is death.

And please, if you're truly a person who has been a victim of race, what would this innocent child in the womb be? Don't be a hypocrite.

If you were my son and the girl didn't want the baby, I would raise the baby until you had the wherewithal to support it. Of course, you'd be going to school to get a degree and then working every waking hour when you weren't in school or studying. Then you would pay me back. Then I might consider you to be a real man. Then I would give everything back to you tenfold when I died. That's called a legacy of life, not death.

Good luck, you CAN do it. Be a man, that's what God has called you to do.

Really, really gotta go.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 8:06 PM


"Also, I am a dark skinned Italian/Sicilian and I am no stranger to prejudice, however, I threw away that crutch a long time ago when I found out it was made of rubber. "

You...against prejudice? Don't make me laugh, please. As you seem to definitely have an issue with homosexuals (as you seem to think being "pro-homosexual" is a bad thing).

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 8:09 PM


Right, mom, Michael does not have the same IP address as Lando. But Michael has the same email address as Samantha (not SamanthaT).

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 8:10 PM


You're right, His Man, I don't mind being courted by Lando-types. They're the only real men out there. They're the only ones who don't EXPECT me or any other woman to do something with their bodies, no matter how you think they'd "USE" me. Because every woman is supposed to want to get pregnant from every sexual encounter, right?

How is that not "using" a woman as a walking womb.

**braces herself for the barrage of Bible-thumping comments and allusions to damnation**

*rolls eyes*

Posted by: Alyssa at April 11, 2007 8:11 PM


Jill,

His Man, 7:14p: Ok, now my husband is mad because I'm laughing while he's trying to talk to me about his D-Link.

I thought we were supposed to refrain from using vulgar language !

D-link. I don't even want to know. I have a picture in my head now....

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 8:24 PM


Alyssa,

One for each time you hold the rights of a fetus over the rights of the women sacrificing for it.

Actually, I think HisMan is for both things. You are the one against women sacrificing for their offspring. Remember?

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 8:30 PM


I would just like to say that I think the abortion debate should be about the people who are actually involved in the abortion--the mother and the child, perhaps the doctor--not the people who are arguing on either side. Personal attacks from both sides only serve an inflammatory purpose and hinder progress. I understand and respect that the religion for pro-lifers is at the heart of their reasoning for their stance; however, I believe that it is our duty to plant the seed. God will help it grow. Dogging people to try to "convert" them doesnt help either case for which we fight (abortion or salvation). Neither side seems to be in favor of late-term abortions; why not jointly focus on getting tougher legislation to prevent the murder of these utero-babies? Perhaps if we put the religious agenda aside, we can come to some common ground on which to build.

Posted by: SamanthaT at April 11, 2007 8:57 PM


Good Stuff Samantha,

How do we do it?

We are fought every step of the way. Did you see when I posted the actual transcripts from the supreme court arguing against late terms?

Scary stuff. But that's what we're up against.

So what's the solution?
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 9:02 PM


I just got this email from my advisor:

Shane Bernier is a 7 year old boy that was diagnosed with Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia at the age of five years old. The only thing that this amazing little boy has requested for his birthday is cards. Not money, or video games, or a remote control car.... but Birthday Cards. His goal is to beat the world record of 350 million cards received.

His Birthday is May 30th

Send Cards to:

Shane Bernier
PO Box 484
Lancaster, Ontario
K0C 1N0
Canada

LOOK AT THIS VIDEO http://youtube.com/watch?v=cXz6UJL5oDA


http://www.shaneswish.com/index.php

Posted by: SamanthaT at April 11, 2007 9:02 PM


MK--Im the idea girl. Youre the go do it girl. =)

I missed those transcripts. To be honest, I skipped over a lot of the posts because it seemed like a semantics war. Ill go look them up right now.

PS Medjugorge = fascinating

Posted by: SamanthaT at April 11, 2007 9:04 PM


Go here:

http://generationsforlife.org/2006/1108/today-at-the-supreme-court/

Then scroll down and click on the PDF files at the bottom...

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 9:23 PM


yeah, jill. samanthas a friend of mine and she gave me her account because i couldnt figure out how to set one up.
and i think i have some good news... the baby isnt mine. she just found out shes two months pregnant and the last time i slept with her was a month and a half ago. last time before that was three and a half months ago... im pretty relieved but im not thrilled she got pregnant while we were dating when i wasnt sleeping with her.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 10:44 PM


Well, you're still not in the clear. There's just two weeks difference. Still, I think His Man gave you great advice. And I would just add you need to be a little choosier.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 10:54 PM


well, its definetly not mine, but im still pretty worried about how the kid will turn out. ive seen FAS and crack babies... and i know shes keeping it but i dont know if shes still using... kinda has me worried but now that i know its not mine i have NO authority to say a damn thing to her....

frustrating.

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:29 PM


youd figure a girl six years older than me would be a LITTLE more mature than this...

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:29 PM


SamanthaT:

We are ALL involved in the abortion debate because it affects ALL of us whether you like it or not. If a five year old were murdered, we wouldn't just leave IT between the child murdered, the murderer, and the parents of the murdered child. No, the police, the courts and the community would get involved as they should. However, it's really pro-aborts that don't have any say, they're just getting away with it because the very people that should be absolutely outraged at abortion, God's people, do almost nothing.

Didn't Churchill say that evil men succeed because good men do nothing?

When we ALL see abortion as it is, murder, all of us who haven't been converted to its insanity will have the same reaction....to STOP it.

So, while your post seems conciliatory, there's a vein of illogic to it that requires a response. My response is, make abortion illegal and then we'll talk, no compromise.

It's ironic that you use the term seed in the same thought process as abortion. Abortion kills the seed when the purpose of the seed is to grow. No, the only seeds that are continually being sown are ones that will result in grapes of wrath, as long as we choose, allow, support and commit abortion.

No, God's not going to do anything about abortion until Christians repent of even allowing it to occur in the first place. Why do you think pro-deathers have been successful at killing 50,000,000 innocents over a 34 year period? I'm convinced that it's the church's fault.

The following scripture is poignant:
2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Notice, "my people...called by my name". That's not referring to non-believers. Really, pro-death non-believers are the ones that don't have any say in the matter. If Christians united in repentance against abortion, it would be eliminated instantaneoulsy.

Wake up church.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:35 PM


i dunno HisMan. i dont believe in legislating my morality on other people. God gave us free will and that isnt mine to take away. everyone will answer on the day of judgement. im just praying God decides i was good (pun very much intended)

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 11, 2007 11:40 PM


Michael:

Is murder, theft, speeding or yada, yada, yada illegal? Perhaps using your logic those are not moral issues?

I guarantee that if a person kills someone and are caught, tried and convicted, somebody, namely the state (you and me), is going to take that person's free will away.

Plain and simple you aren't good enough (none of us are). That's why Jesus Christ had to die.

Again all of us won't answer on the day of judgement as you describe. Believers go before Jesus and will be rewarded for their works by the position they receive in heaven, not whether or not they get to go in, you know, casting crowns. Non-believers go to hell.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:06 AM


so aborted fetuses go to hell?

Posted by: Michael Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:32 AM


His Man,

Non-believers go to hell, period? This is why I have a problem with religion.

So a person will go to hell, even if they are good people? The person who cares for foster kids, donates to charity, is generous and kind, will go to hell simply because she is a non-believer?

On the other hand, a person who has murdered, raped, and done all sorts of crimes will be forgiven and sent off to heaven as long as he believes?

I can never agree with such an interpretation.

Posted by: Stephanie at April 12, 2007 1:54 AM


Michael,

If I said yes, aborted fetuses go to hell and you believed me, would you change to being pro-life?

Tell me what sin have they committed?

You said everyone will answer on the day of judgement. Does that inlcude fetuses as well? Guess not for you since, the one in everyone implies that they are human. Guess they simply don't exist yet.

Don't ask stupid questions.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:58 AM


Stephanie,

You said "So a person will go to hell, even if they are good people? The person who cares for foster kids, donates to charity, is generous and kind, will go to hell simply because she is a non-believer?"

You don't have a problem with religion, you have a problem with God. Some religions say there is no hell. God says there is a hell and tells you how to avoid it. It's no secret, it's His Son.

Yes a person will go to hell, even if they are good people, if they don't believe in Christ as their Savior. The standard is perfection, not good. You want to be in God's camp, you have to be like Him, perfect. None make it our own works. Accepting Christ's death on the cross as payment for our sins makes us perfect.

And by the way, those good people you talk about, they would be the frist ones who would tell you that they lied, murdered with their words, cheated, yep, and even blasphemend God a time or two. If not, then they are liars and that in itself would disqualify them from heaven.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 2:12 AM


His Man,

I have a problem with religion. More specifically, the mindset that you MUST believe this religion because it is the correct one, and if you don't, you will be punished.

I know that good people will make mistakes, but it makes sense that cursing would be much less of a crime than murder.

I guess that's the thing...to you (and by that I mean Christians) all sins are equal. So cursing automatically sends you to hell the same as murder does? (honestly curious).

Posted by: Stephanie at April 12, 2007 2:40 AM


Stephanie,

Actually the Catholic church has a very different position.

While we agree that Jesus died for our sins and that you can't "earn" your way to heaven, we disagree on who goes.

Section 847 states that:
bullet The above "...is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church."
bullet "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." 9

We also believe in no all sins are equal.
We have mortal sins (Sins which permanently separate you from God) and venial sins (sins which make it harder to remain in God's good graces).

Mortal sins must be confessed to a priest and venial sins can be confessed to a priest or directly to God.

Protestants believe in "Faith alone", not good works, Catholics believe the two cannot be separated.

James proclaims that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone (2:24)... faith without deeds is useless... dead (2:20,26)... the devils also believe, and tremble (2:19)... a letter instructing Christians "to be doers of the word and not merely hearers" (1:22).


1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,[129] became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 5:54 AM


MK, Stephanie: Based on MK's posting of Sec. 847, Catholics and evangelical Christians agree that those who have never heard about Jesus or the God of the Bible are judged by different criteria than those who have heard the Gospel and are from that point on responsible for that.

Romans 1:20 says everyone has God written on their hearts: "From the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse."

Catholics and evangelical Christians also agree we are saved by grace alone. Ephesians 2:8-9: "God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God. It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it."

It is at this point Catholics and evangelical Christians separate. This is what caused the schism in the 1500s, led in large part by Luther.

Catholics believe salvation after this point involves a mixture of grace and works. It is something to continue to work on.

Evangelical Christians believe salvation is always a matter of grace. The good works we do are not to help earn our way to heaven but in thanksgiving for what Jesus did on the cross.

Another important difference is Evangelical Christians believe God explains everything we need to know in the Bible - sola scriptura, as the Reformationists said.

Catholics believe God explains everything we need to know through a mixture of Bible and traditional writings/teachings.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 7:15 AM


His Man,
I have a problem with religion. More specifically, the mindset that you MUST believe this religion because it is the correct one, and if you don't, you will be punished.
I know that good people will make mistakes, but it makes sense that cursing would be much less of a crime than murder.
I guess that's the thing...to you (and by that I mean Christians) all sins are equal. So cursing automatically sends you to hell the same as murder does? (honestly curious).

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Also, Roman's 3 has a lot of insight about what you can do about it:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 7:28 AM


Mmm, thanks all for the info.

I regularly go to my friend's small groups, but I admit that sometimes the things they talk about fly over my head. Oftentimes I don't ask questions because it's embarassing to ask in person and I'm afraid I'll offend someone. I hope you don't mind that I ask here.

Posted by: Stephanie at April 12, 2007 9:14 AM


Stephanie, you are more than welcome to ask any of us for information about the Bible....i'll be happy to answer any questions you have about the Bible or anything like that...not that I know everything there is to know, but as much as I can. lol I really appreciate that your questions were asked with sincerity. I'll always respond sincerely to a sincere question. :)

P.S. I'm sorry if that big KJV Bible passage that I posted above was confusing (I know King James style is sometimes difficult to read)


Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 9:23 AM


Yeah, I know we don't always see eye-to-eye, but hey, behind all the insulting and anger and whatnot coming from both sides is an opportunity to learn.

=P

Posted by: Stephanie at April 12, 2007 10:02 AM


Stephanie,

Often times people rebel against Christianity simply because they do not understand Christianity.

They think they do, but Christianity is sooooo deep and soooo rich, that the platitudes that are thrown around can often do more harm than good.

The one thing that ALL Christians believe is that there is a trinity. Meaning, the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person, yet three different persons at the same time.

St. Patrick uses the shamrock to explain it this way: If I'm holding a shamrock and I point to one leaf, am I pointing to the entire shamrock? Is any one leaf more "shamrock" than the others? No, each leaf is a part of the whole. Lose a leaf and you no longer have a whole shamrock. But take the three together and you have an entire shamrock.

We also ALL believe that Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins so that we wouldn't have to. We will never be "worthy" of heaven, but we are, in the eyes of God, "worth" heaven.

And Jill is right. Faith is a gift. Catholics call this a theological virtue. A virtue given to us. Faith, Hope and Love are all theological virtues. Prudence, Temperance and such are cardinal virtues, meaning we can acquire them through practice. But Faith must be given, and in turn received.

There is a lot to be said about "reception".
Theology of the body speaks of the analogy of Christ and the Church, The Church and The Eucharist, and Men and Women, all in terms of giving and receiving.

Christ (the male) gives his love. The church (female) receives his love. The Eucharist (Christ, male) gives his body. The Church (the people, female) receive his body (in the form of the Eucharist) Men (by virtue of their sexual organs) give semen to create life. Females (by virtue of the way their bodies are made) receive. (the sperm)to create life.

This is the entire point of Theology of the Body.
Men and Women are created in the image of Christ and His church. Male and female, He created them.

This is why we see birth control as so grave an error. It is blocking the "reception" of the gift your husband is trying to give you.

Does that make sense? It would be like closing your mouth when the priest is giving you communion, refusing to accept the gift. Or not loving the church which is Christ's gift to us.

Hope this helps.
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 10:08 AM


"Yes a person will go to hell, even if they are good people, if they don't believe in Christ as their Savior."

That's ridiculous. And why I'm glad to go to "Hell" instead of stand beside such a God. It's like a leader who says if you don't follow me I'll kill you. Disgusting.

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 10:33 AM


Danielle,

Once again, not following Him, is a "CHOICE"...no one is forcing you to.

If you follow Him, He will lead on a journey so full, so profound, and so beautiful you will never look back. Doesn't sound like a tyrant to me.

If you don't follow Him, your road will lead elsewhere. But it is always your "choice"...

A concept you should be very familiar with.

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 10:47 AM


It's like a leader who says if you don't follow me I'll kill you.

Actually what He says is "If you follow me, I will give you everlasting life".

But there are many roads, and you are free to take anyone that you want.

If I tell you that I'm going to the ice cream truck and if you want some ice cream (I'm buying) you'll have to follow me there (cuz it's gonna melt by the time I bring it back to you), and you choose not to come, then you can't very well whine when the rest of us are eating ice cream.

I suppose it's possible to find your own way to the truck, but it's still the same truck, and eating ice cream with friends is always more fun than eating alone.

And why I'm glad to go to "Hell" instead of stand beside such a God.

And why you're glad not have to eat ice cream rather than follow me to the ice cream truck.

Okay. But I think I'll get me a vanilla cone dipped in chocolate...mmmmmmmmm....

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 10:52 AM


Danielle,

Have you ever lied, cheated or stolen something or broken just one of the Ten Commandments?

If you say no, then you are at best, just a liar.

Since all have sinned and fall short of God's glory, which is the standard by which we are all meansured and to which none of us can stand, we need a Savior.

So, you're inability to understand this is the problem, not the God you hate who is really trying to love you.

Are you jealous that He is perfect and you're not?

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 11:14 AM


I have lied to my parents, what kid hasn't. I've also lied to teachers of why I haven't done my homework.

I have cheated at board games, but not since I was 7. And yes, I have cheated on a test.

No, I've never stolen anything.

God is obviously not perfect. If he was then the world would also be perfect. I think that he enjoys the pains and suffering of this world. Why else would he allow them to continue?

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 11:17 AM


"If you follow Him, He will lead on a journey so full, so profound, and so beautiful you will never look back. Doesn't sound like a tyrant to me."

He says if you don't follow me, if you don't do everything that I say, you are going to Hell. That isn't a tyrant? The only way to get into Heaven is to worship him. If you worship any other God or choose not to worship at all, then you are going to Hell, no matter what you do in your life.

He's telling you you HAVE to do this or you're going to Hell. A leader tells you you HAVE to do this or you're going to die. There's not a big difference in my eyes. God is the tyrant holding Heaven to your head in place of a gun and death is Hell.

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 11:20 AM


Danielle, go read The Book of Urizen by William Blake. It's a hardcore crazy Gnostic book and incredibly difficult to understand the first time through, but it basically characterizes the Christian God as a horrible tyrant who really messes the universe up. I absolutely loved it, and think you might as well.

Posted by: HumanAbstract Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 12:09 PM


Danielle:

Hell is simply eternal separation from God. We are cast out from his glory if we do not believe. This is the way it must be, for God gave us free will.

You should feel no anger that the God you do not worship sends you away from Him. You choose to be separated! Would it make sense for a just God to force people into his kingdom who professed on Earth that they had no wish to reside with Him?

The caveat, of course, is that upon death the unbeliever sees what he has denied and that truth lives with him for eternity. The truth of separation from God causes eternal sorrow.

Thankfully, it is not too late! While there is breath there is hope. You can accept Christ today and choose to be with Him forever.

Christ died to make this possible. God knew that man would die by the law and that none of us could live a perfect life. Christ came as the sacrifice for our sins and through his blood we are sanctified.

When one chooses to walk with Christ all things of old are buried. We are buried with Christ so we can LIVE! We are no longer murderers or adulterers, but saints.

Danielle, this death to self is how former murderers enter the kingdom of Heaven. God does not see them as murderers, but rather as innocent and white as snow. They have forsaken their former lives!

Christ teaches that NO ONE can enter the kingdom except through Him, because we are ALL sinners. We are ALL as guilty as the murderer, but it is so easy to bury those sins! All we must do is take up the cross and walk with Christ.

Posted by: lauren at April 12, 2007 1:31 PM


Stephanie and Danielle -

The best part of the blog? When it comes to religion, you will get every angle of it!

Talk about a complete education.

;-)

Posted by: Valerie Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:38 PM


Danielle,

You sure do get hung up on the negatives...

He gave you ten commandments. Ten things that he asks you not to do...less if you count the positives like honor your mother and father, and love one another as I have loved you...

If he had written the 10 billion things that you are allowed even encouraged to do, the book would have been so long that nobody would read it.

But instead of the sunsets, and caterpillars and mashed potatoes with gravy, instead of the ability to love and be loved, music, color, raindrops, instead of all of this and infinite more...

all you can see is what you can't do?

crazy talk!
Phooey.
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:50 PM


Danielle,

God is obviously not perfect. If he was then the world would also be perfect. I think that he enjoys the pains and suffering of this world. Why else would he allow them to continue?

Maybe this stuff is over your head.

I don't know. You think God is imperfect and not us. You think God causes the suffering, not us.

Do you not read our posts, understand our posts or not retain them?

Because I'm pretty sure we've gone over this a hundred times now.

Shall we do it again?
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:52 PM


Danielle,

He's telling you you HAVE to do this or you're going to Hell. A leader tells you you HAVE to do this or you're going to die. There's not a big difference in my eyes. God is the tyrant holding Heaven to your head in place of a gun and death is Hell.

Sounds like you have a little problem with authority.

You really believe that the definition of a leader is someone who forces you to do everything that you say?

Maybe a bad leader. But I'd call your guy a bully.

A good leader offers you something so wonderful that not to follow him would be nuts!

A good leader has qualities so amazing that you can't wait to follow him.

A good leader cares about you as much as he cares about himself.

I'm sorry you don't know this.
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 1:56 PM


Danielle -

"God is obviously not perfect. If he was then the world would also be perfect. I think that he enjoys the pains and suffering of this world. Why else would he allow them to continue?"


I admit that I'm not perfect at interpreting the bible so I may be wrong on this. Adam and Eve had the perfect world that you speak of, but they disobeyed the simplest of rules so they were sent out of paradise. You have to earn paradise. You can't just get in because you don't think you haven't bitten out of the apple. Everyone working together has to repair that apple.

Posted by: Valerie Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 2:02 PM


Danielle,

Don't you know that He loves you?
Don't you know that your are his beloved daughter?
Don't you know that He is holding His breath right this moment, waiting to see if this time, you'll hear Him? Feel Him?

He longs to hold you. To caress you. To kiss away every owie and boo boo, and to heal all those wounds that you have suffered.

To kiss away every tear from your beautiful eyes.
To hear your secrets. To hear your anger. To hear you heart song.

He loves you. You, Danielle. He has loved you for as long as you have been alive.

He loves you now. He'll love you tomorrow. He'll love you ten minutes from now when you deny Him yet again.

He knows that you speak out of pain. and confusion. He knows that that anger is real, but that it's not who you really are. He knows that you need to let go of it, but He can't help you if you don't let Him.

Let Him rock you to sleep, and when you wake up, a new day will begin...

Mother Theresa says: Yesterday is gone.
Tomorrow is not yet here.
All we have is today.
Let us begin...
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 2:06 PM


"Adam and Eve had the perfect world that you speak of, but they disobeyed the simplest of rules so they were sent out of paradise."

So God now holds a grudge against us for the sins that "Adam and Eve" did thousands of years ago? Nice.

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 2:29 PM


"He loves you now. He'll love you tomorrow. He'll love you ten minutes from now when you deny Him yet again."

But He won't love me when he sees I don't worship him and only him. He'll sent me to Hell. I don't even believe in God. All I'm speaking is in the hypothetical on what you guys have told me.

God loves you and wants you to come to Heaven, but if you don't worship him no matter how good of a life you led you're doing to Hell. That will NEVER be right in my eyes. It makes me pity you that you would follow someone like that.

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 2:32 PM


Less,

Thanks! I'll definitely look into reading that book! ^_^

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 2:32 PM


"You really believe that the definition of a leader is someone who forces you to do everything that you say?

Maybe a bad leader. But I'd call your guy a bully."

That's exactly what I'm talking about. A bad leader. A tyrant.

God=the tyrant.
The gun the tyrant holds to your head=Heaven
The death that the tyrant threatens with if you don't shut up and follow his commands=Hell.

So God is the bad leader who wants to control everything you do. Of course he gives you the choice. The choice to live or die. You could shut up and go along with something that you don't believe in. Or you could stick to your beliefs and die.

I normally hate the Hitler comparisons, but lets try this.

I believe that what Hitler (God) is doing to the Jews and other minority groups is wrong (Non-belivers or people who worship other Gods). I speak out about it and don't act in a way that he would want me to (Or I sin or say things blasphemis). Hitler (God) finds out (I die)and I'm brought before him to be interrogated (Judged before the pearly gates). Hitler (God) tells me that I can either conform to what he wants 9which would have been to confess and accept Jesus Christ as my Savior) and live (be accepted into Heaven) or I can die (go to Hell).

If God really is this great and loving God then he would look at how I lived my life. How few people I hurt. How I treated people around me. How I helped the commnunity, ect. He would not condemn me for not worshipping him with every breath. That is a tyrant. And I will NEVER bow down to someone like that.

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 2:39 PM


Danielle,

I believe the fall is a universal one (the Genesis beginning being allegorical). Humanity in its entirety is guilty, not just 2 people. We get a good world and we screw it up. Because all desires to be like God and fall short in sin we are unworthy. Only God can get you back up.

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 12, 2007 2:42 PM


Danielle,

Did you read my post? God loves those who choose Hell. God gave us free choice. He does not make anyone reside with Him if they choose not to. Many people on Earth will choose eternal separation from God. God would not be just if he forced those people to live with Him forever.

The eternal sorrow of Hell comes from knowing that you *chose* to be separated from Him.

Posted by: lauren at April 12, 2007 2:50 PM


Danielle,

At this point I think He'd be grateful just to have a handshake. You can save all the worshipin' stuff for a later date.

And yes He will still love you " when he sees I don't worship him and only him."

He loves you no matter what. He doesn't care how many temper tantrums you throw, how many nasty ol' things you say...He's tougher than that.

He love you. He loves you. He loves you. He loves you. He loves you. He loves you. He loves...

His love is not contingent upon your response.

Don't you get that? You don't have to follow Him to get Him to love you.

He loves you. He loves you. He loves you.

There is nothing you can do that is so terrible that He will stop loving you.

He loves you. He loves you. He loves you...

But if you don't want to follow Him, you don't have to. That's not tyranny. He respects you so much that if you choose to walk away, He'll let you.

That's how much He loves you.

If you choose life and death without Him, what choice do you leave Him.

If he forces you to go to Heaven then He's a tyrant. If you refuse to go to Heaven then He's a tyrant...

Sheesh, you sure make it hard on the Guy!

What terms would satisfy you?

MK

PS Did I mention that He loves you?

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 2:56 PM


For not worshipping him, I get enternal damnation in Hell. wOOt. Bring it on.

Real loving to create a place where your tourchered (sp?) for not believing in him.

"You don't have to follow Him to get Him to love you."

Naw you just have to worship him to have happiness in the "afterlife."

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 3:02 PM


Danielle, don't you see that you get to chose where you spend eternity? God would be a liar if he forced those who choose to deny Him to spend the after life with Him. If we can not choose our own damnation, then we really have no choice.

Posted by: lauren at April 12, 2007 3:14 PM


You are tortured by the knowledge that you choose to forsake God. That is more painful than anything that anyone else could afflict upon you.

Posted by: lauren at April 12, 2007 3:17 PM


Ah hah, so even though I live a good life, I'm choosing Hell. I see. Meh, so be it. Everyone I know will be there anyways.

Party in Hell! Woop woop!

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 3:18 PM


You are such an angry person, Jill. That's sad. I feel bad for you.

Posted by: Ilana at April 12, 2007 3:26 PM


Danielle: I'll bring the music. Trance and happy hardcore the whole time! Whoooooooo! :D

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 3:29 PM


None of us live a life "good enough" to save ourselves.

Think about it like this,

Say you have a meeting with the Queen of England. In this reality she has very strict standards that must be kept in order to share dinner with her. She sees that no one will ever be able to live up to these standards so she declares that all one need do in order to see her is believe that her Prince Charles is her son and to confess this upon questioning.

Simple enough.

You think this is stupid. You feel like you do a pretty good job of keeping her standards. Given this, you decide not to accept that Charles as her son, and take your chances with The queen.

Of course once you enter her chambers it is obvious that you have fallen short on a number of issues. She tells you that she is sorry, but she can not meet with someone who refuses to follow the rules that she laid down.

Now the foolish man blames the Queen in this situation. Who is she to decide who can and can't see her?!

The wise man sees that it is the visitor who was foolish. How simple it would have been to accept her grace.

Posted by: lauren at April 12, 2007 3:32 PM


Haha, who cares what the Queen wants? I'd eat how I always eat. She's no different from the rest of us.

And Rae, wOOt! Can't wait! ^_^

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 3:43 PM


But say she *is* different. The dinner you miss is the most exciting, wonderful (insert good things here) dinner of all times. Everyone there can not sing its praises enough. You realize too that the queen is the most magnificant person of all time.

And you missed it.

Yes it's a stupid analogy and God and the Queen of England can hardly be compared, but can you at least recognize that you CHOSE to miss the party by banking on yourself?

Posted by: lauren at April 12, 2007 3:52 PM


Lauren,

I think this is all over their heads. Sad but some people just don't have what it takes to see it.

It is a gift. Too blind to accept the invitation.
Let's just keep praying.

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 3:57 PM


"I think this is all over their heads. Sad but some people just don't have what it takes to see it."

Aww, look it the mightier than thou Christians. *barf*

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 5:01 PM



Aww, look it the mightier than thou Christians. *barf*

Aww it looks like a sad little athiest. Need a hug?

Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 6:25 PM


I'm in a very sarcastic mood today. :D Sorry, Danielle, I just couldn't resist in reply to your condescending post.

Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 6:26 PM


I'm a happy little agnostic, but I like hugs...preferably from my puppeh. :)

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 9:19 PM


Rae,

My puppy doesn't like hugs. D:

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 11:04 PM


Danielle: Mine does. He also likes giving kisses and he loves getting back scratches in exchange for kissies.

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 12, 2007 11:08 PM


My puppy likes giving kisses, just not hugs. And he *LOVES* getting his belly scratched. I

Posted by: Danielle at April 12, 2007 11:48 PM


I know it's been covered, I've only recently read these particular comments. But, more animals than just humans are capable of altruism, it actually extends past the animal kingdom into the other ones.

But, that's if you believe in evolution, and it depends on what kind of altruism you're speaking of.

Carry on, then...

Posted by: Rosy at April 13, 2007 4:51 PM