This story just literally made me break into tears. First, because I thought it was about a mom spending her last minutes with her baby..and then because of that precious moment, her baby lived. How wonderful that is. This just shows how much more powerful a mother's love is than some doctors who think they know everything.

Sorry Bethany. I know this is a blog devoted to the preborn but having just this summer lost Daddy to cancer and seeing him HAVE to convince the docs that at 89 he wanted the radiation and wanted to fight -- which he did so valiantly and never complaining --- I KNOW what Futile Care Theory has done to the brains and hearts of our American doctors. If one more young Doogie Howser came in for rounds and sniffed "Well, he IS eighty-nine AFTERALL" as if Daddy was a carton of milk past his expiration date, I would have been sitting in prison right now for man (er, pimply faced boy) slaughter.

As a beautiful Baby Boomer Italo American woman I have enough feistiness in me to make those docs lives miserable and prove their prognostications WRONG some day. Do not go gently....

This is just so sad...the story & Bev's...why can't these people (doc's) understand that ALL life is precious. If they can't grasp that concept, maybe they should picture one of THEIR loved-ones or themselves as the suffering patient. This world makes me sick sometimes!

Bev, I am so sorry for your temporary loss. It sounds like your father was quite a humble, strong man!

This story just literally made me break into tears.

Me too. Of course, ever since I had my daughter, it doesn't take much to get the waterworks going!

What a great story. As far as the doctors not trying to do anything to save the child. That makes me sad. I am glad this little bundle of joy pulled through. As far as giving CPR to a premature baby, especially 20 ounces would really make me nervous. But I would probably still do it.

Bethany, the Daily Mail is a rag on the level of the National Enquirer. Certainly not considered credible journalism by the British.
What's next? The Loch Ness Monster says that evolution is fiction?

Hey look, the same magazine says that "babies make you miserable"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=501488&in_page_id=1770

JM,

Aww that's sad..babies don't make me miserable..I love em..especially the one upstairs taking a nap, she's a keeper. I want a bunch more! Well, in a couple years anyway if I find the right guy!

Elizabeth,

Babies are so cute... But they usually cry when i hold them. :(

How old is your bundle of joy

Sally,
That would be one very smart, rational-thinking Loch Ness Monster!

I have a question. How many of you out there boycotting The Golden Compass?

JM, I am. Not so much the movie really. I've heard it doesn't really follow the books but I won't let my kids read the books.

JM,

She will be 2 on February 7...she used to cry when other people held her too. Don't take it personally..but babies can smell fear I think. They know if you're kind of unsure about them.

And as to your other question about The Golden Compass. I'm not going to see it..well for 2 reasons..because I've heard it's notoriously anti-Catholic AND because, well I don't really have time to see movies in the theater. I just wait for DVD or I have OnDemand. OnDemand rocks.

I should say that none of my kids have shown any interest in seeing it. The trailer is on all the time but they have never asked to see it and since the movie goes by a different name I don't think they realize.

We are looking forward to the release of the sequel of "National Treasure" with Nick Cage. I can't remember the name of the sequel but my kids are taking me on opening night for my birthday, which is that day!

Kristen, I really want to see that one too..I think it's called "National Treasure: Book of Secrets." When my Grandma comes down for Christmas, she will babysit so I can go see a movie at the theater which I haven't done in almost 3 years!

Sorry Bethany. I know this is a blog devoted to the preborn but having just this summer lost Daddy to cancer and seeing him HAVE to convince the docs that at 89 he wanted the radiation and wanted to fight -- which he did so valiantly and never complaining --- I KNOW what Futile Care Theory has done to the brains and hearts of our American doctors. If one more young Doogie Howser came in for rounds and sniffed "Well, he IS eighty-nine AFTERALL" as if Daddy was a carton of milk past his expiration date, I would have been sitting in prison right now for man (er, pimply faced boy) slaughter.
As a beautiful Baby Boomer Italo American woman I have enough feistiness in me to make those docs lives miserable and prove their prognostications WRONG some day. Do not go gently....
Posted by: Bev at December 12, 2007 1:37 PM

Bev, I am so tremendously sorry to hear what your father had to go through before he died. It's just not right. What is wrong with these people that treat human beings as disposable? Your father, at age 89, was just as worthwhile to save as any other human being at any age. I would have punched that pimply faced kid in the face too, for saying such a thing- at least, in my imagination I would have.
I'm very sorry for the loss of your father. He must have been so very special to you.

Jm, I am.

Bev, was your father at a "teaching hospital?" My grandma had cancer, lost her eye, her palatte,horrible cancer. They used to bring in residents and say "this woman shouldn't be alive."

It's like I always say, you can have all the smarts in the world but if you don't have an ounce of common sense you can't make it through the day.

My dad died of cancer 14 years ago today. He died the same day as his father, years apart, but both on December 12th. My grandpa prayed that whatever year he died he wanted to die on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Then when my dad died on December 12th it was nice to think my grandpa "came down" and said "Come on, there's this great place I want to show you..."

Okay, I'll go have a cry now...

Bethany, the Daily Mail is a rag on the level of the National Enquirer. Certainly not considered credible journalism by the British.
What's next? The Loch Ness Monster says that evolution is fiction?

Oh good grief...

http://www.worldwidefeatures.com/feature_info.php?feature_id=471

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/health/baby+saved+by+mothers+cuddle/1157547

http://www.lifestyle.bloggingbaby.com/2007/12/10/mother-saves-her-20oz-baby-with-a-cuddle/

Satisfied? Or do I need to find more?

Bev, was your father at a "teaching hospital?" My grandma had cancer, lost her eye, her palatte,horrible cancer. They used to bring in residents and say "this woman shouldn't be alive."

It's like I always say, you can have all the smarts in the world but if you don't have an ounce of common sense you can't make it through the day.

My dad died of cancer 14 years ago today. He died the same day as his father, years apart, but both on December 12th. My grandpa prayed that whatever year he died he wanted to die on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Then when my dad died on December 12th it was nice to think my grandpa "came down" and said "Come on, there's this great place I want to show you..."

Okay, I'll go have a cry now...

I am looking forward to possibly seeing National Treasure. I love Nicolas Cage. :)

"We would never withhold CPR from a child or adult pending demonstration of proof they were "fighters." How ridiculous. Premature infants are the most medically discriminated against of any age group."

Amen Jill. Wow, what a great story, good find Bethany. ....speaking of descrimination, now if this was a captured terrorist fighting for his life, then the Libs would be crying descrimination, etc. But since it's a baby, ahh, no big deal to them....

"Amen Jill. Wow, what a great story, good find Bethany. ....speaking of descrimination, now if this was a captured terrorist fighting for his life, then the Libs would be crying descrimination, etc. But since it's a baby, ahh, no big deal to them...."

Where does it say in this article that the doctors were liberal. Not to mention the article doesn't even take place in the US. Did you even read the article jasper? I'm liberal and performed CPR on a man who was 89 years old. My dad performed CPR on two individuals over the age of 50 as well. And if a premature baby needed CPR I would do that as well as several of my other friends who are liberal.

Weather you'd like to admit it or not jasper YOU discriminate against people yourself. YOU discriminate against those that are a different religion from you.

Kristen,
I am so sorry!!! Today must be very difficult for you & your family. Try not to cry, though...just close your eyes and picture your dad & grandpa doing exactly what they enjoy doing most, toghether, and joyfully laughing & telling jokes while Jesus has his arms around both of them.

JM, I think (although I could be wrong) Jasper was referring to those who think this story about the baby fighting for her life is no big deal (or they pretend it's a hoax), yet, they seem to think that a terrorist fighting for his life is a huge deal. To me, it looks like he was just pointing out that inconsistency...

Jasper, thanks...I have to give credit to Milehimama (hope I spelled that right) who is the one who originally found it...I just forwarded it to Jill. :)

Oops, JM, forgot to mention ....we did have a discussion about water boarding recently, and you may have missed it. So that may be why his comment made more sense to me than you..it is more of a continuation of our previous discussion...

Okay AB Laura, that made me cry even more! :)
I'm okay, he died of lung cancer. He didn't smoke but made artificial limbs and breathed in plaster for 20 years.

It was hard to see my 6'4" 200+ dad become emaciated. His nurses were great at the hospital and all of them came to the funeral. Actually his funeral was jammed, people flowing out of the church. My brother and sisters couldn't believe how many people. So many people came in wheel chairs, with an artificial leg, or arm or another kind of brace. All of them crying, said they would miss him so much. I remember we were laughing so hard at the stories they were telling us.

PS sorry about the duplicate posts...

Kristen, I'm so sorry.... (hugs)

Kristen,
Yeah, what was with the "posting problems" for about 1/2-hour?

Anyway, wow...you should be proud, as I sure your are, of your dad. To have that many people pay their respects to him, and being missed by that many, makes me wish that I knew him, too. I'll bet he was AWESOME! Thank God it's all temporary, though....we'll have an eternity with our loved ones soon...My mom once told me that if you tied a string around the entire earth, then made a line on the string with the sharpest pencil you could find...the width of line would represent our time here on earth, and the rest of the string would represent eternity with our loved ones!!!
This was a sympathy card that someone gave to my boss one day when his wife had a miscarriage...I read this 14 years ago, and I still remember the wonderful words and thoughts:

The Plan Of The Master Weaver

Our lives are but fine weavings,
That God and we prepare,
Each life becomes a fabric planned
And fashioned in His care.
We may not always see just how
The weavings intertwine,
But we must trust the Master’s hand
And follow His design,
For He can view the pattern
From the upper side,
While we must look from underneath
And trust in Him to guide.

Sometimes a strand of sorrow
Is added to His plan,
And though it’s difficult for us,
We still must understand
That it’s He who fills the shuttle,
It’s He who knows what’s best,
So we must weave in patience
And leave to Him the rest…

Not till the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Shall God unroll the canvas
And explain the reason why—
The dark threads are as needed
In the Weaver’s skillful hand
And the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned.

--Anonymous

AB Laura, thank you. I'm crying again!

I have a poem in my living room called "Touch of the Master's Hand"

'Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer
thought it scarcely worth his while
to waste much time on the old violin,
but he held it up with a smile.
"What am I bid, good folk?" he cried, "Who'll start the bidding for me?
A dollar - a dollar - then two, only two.
Two dollars, and who'll make it three?
Going for three" - but no.
From the room far back, a gray-haired man
came forward and picked up the bow.
Then, wiping the dust from the violin
and tightening the loosened strings, he played
a melody pure and sweet as a caroling angel sings.
The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
with a voice that was quiet and low,
said, "Now what am I bid for the old voilin?"
And he held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars and who'll make it two"
Two thousand dollars and who'll make it three?
Three thousand once, three thousand twice, and going and gone," cried he.
The people cheered but some of them cried,
"We do not understand, what changed its worth?"
Quick came the reply:
"The touch of the master's hand."
And many a man with life out of tune,
and battered and scarred with sin,
is auctioned cheap to a thoughtless crowd,
much like the old violin.

Not exactly like your card, I guess the name reminded me... And like the doctors that Bev mentioned. Her father may not have been worth much to them but he was to her and God.

Kristen,
I've jumped right on the bandwagon...eyes are tearing up!
Thank you! I love that one! How true it is.

I saw this on the internet and wanted to share. ENJOY!

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=300608

"JM, I think (although I could be wrong) Jasper was referring to those who think this story about the baby fighting for her life is no big deal (or they pretend it's a hoax), yet, they seem to think that a terrorist fighting for his life is a huge deal. To me, it looks like he was just pointing out that inconsistency..."

Yes, Thanks Bethany.

Kristen, sorry about your father. I lost my father about 11 years ago.

Jasper,
I'm sorry you lost your father, too!

:(

"JM, I think (although I could be wrong) Jasper was referring to those who think this story about the baby fighting for her life is no big deal (or they pretend it's a hoax), yet, they seem to think that a terrorist fighting for his life is a huge deal. To me, it looks like he was just pointing out that inconsistency..."

Inconsistency... okay lets talk about inconsistency, why is it that conservatives are for the death penalty but against abortion. I mean anti-choicers are suppose to be for protecting life. But who cares about those on death row? When some of those on death row are innocent?

JM,
If it's any consolation, I'm against the death penalty!

JM,

I'm against the death penalty as well. AND against abortion..but I'm sure you picked up on that one already haha. My gut instinct when I hear of a horrendous crime is to hope that guy gets the death penalty..but I have to dig down deep in my soul to not feel that way. It involves a lot of praying and soul-searching usually. I think it is only natural to want to see someone punished for their terrible crimes...but I still do not feel the government gets to decide who lives and who dies. So I am against the death penalty.

Sally, I am boycotting The Golden Compass, if by "boycott" you mean "Refuse to see it and tell every Catholic I know that it's an anti-Catholic movie so they should keep that in mind before they decide to go see it."

Some Catholics, in reply, have given me the "it's just a movie" or a similar line, but I'm satisfied as long as they know what they're getting themselves into.

I may watch the movie when it's broadcast on TV, but I refuse to help a movie succeed when its main purpose is to attack me.

JM, I changed my point of view on the death penalty a year or two ago, and I am now against it. But since I used to be for it and pro-life at the same time, I can explain how that is possible.

When reserved for the crime of murder, the death penalty can actually be viewed as life-affirming. How so? Well, it is society's way of saying, we consider the protection of innocent lives so important that if you intentionally take someone else's life, we are going to inflict the ultimate punishment upon you and take your life. In this way, the death penalty is meant to serve as both a deterrent and as an example to show how much we care about protecting people in our society. Most pro-lifers are really pro-innocent-life, and they find it morally and logically absurd to compare the murderer with the person being murdered.

However, as I said, I changed my mind on this issue after much personal reflection. I do not believe it is necessary to execute anyone to affirm the value of innocent lives. Executing murderers does not significantly deter violent crimes (if it all), and our legal system is set up in such a way that in the long run it actually costs the taxpayers more to give someone the death penalty than it does to give them life in prison. Also, as you said, it is a tiny percentage, but some of these people on death row are innocent. There's just no point to executing these prisoners, so it shouldn't be done.

John,

Very good post!

I wonder how long it will take before Jill talks about the McCaughey family. They either just turned 10 or are turning 10 very soon.

Dateline is doing a story on them. The newscaster just asked the parents if they regretted having them all. So I do believe we will be reading about this on the blog tomorrow.

John:

Have you ever thought about the families of the victims feel about the death penalty?

Have you ever thought about how you would feel if someone you loved was raped, tortured, murdered or dismembered? Are you seriously telling me that you would want their attacker to sit in a prison cell with a bed, covers, a pillow, three meals a day, TV, recreation and mail privileges?

The McCoy chitlins.

This is such a nice little news story. It's amazing how much all those kids look alike (even how much the older sister looks like all the septuplets)!

They're all so cute!

"Have you ever thought about how you would feel if someone you loved was raped, tortured, murdered or dismembered? Are you seriously telling me that you would want their attacker to sit in a prison cell with a bed, covers, a pillow, three meals a day, TV, recreation and mail privileges?"

While I see your point. I think that if someone did a crime "worthy" (i know that is now the right word to use but i can't think of a better one) of the death penalty they'd probably be in solitary confinement. Where yes they probably get three meals a day but only one hour of time outside of a tiny cell smaller than a dorm room.

Oh I butchered spelling the last name.

It seems like its pronounced "McCoy" but it's apparently not spelled that way. Whoops. :)

"The McCoy chitlins.

This is such a nice little news story. It's amazing how much all those kids look alike (even how much the older sister looks like all the septuplets)!

They're all so cute!"

I can't believe their 10 already!

@JM: I know! I feel so old watching this because I remember reading about them in the newspaper when I was 9-10 years old.

Wow. I wish those kids all the luck in the world, they're all so lucky to have each other like that. :)

JM, that's just it; most prisoners in jail convicted of murder are at either a maximum security prison or a medium security. It is rare that one is sent to a Super Max (like Rudolph is in). Even at Super Max's they are allowed access to mail (how Rudolph gets his smut published on the web).

They are only sent to solitary confinement if they do something wrong in jail, not what they did on the outside.

Inmates have Constitutional Rights and we must not give them a "bad life" in jail.

It makes me SICK how many luxuries they are allowed in jail

Rae,

It makes me feel so old too. I was 13 when they were born. I only watch part of the newscast and it seems like they are all doing really well.

@Midnite: I advocate for solitary confinement for all rapists and murderers. Those (@$E*@(*! have it waaaay too good in prison, I agree.

Also,

John is wrong on how he thinks we (the society) will save by keeping an inmate alive versus putting them to death. Do you know how much New York State or Alabama spends on one inmate in jail a year (minus any medical services)?

New York: $26,000
Alabama: $11,000
*This is for ONE inmate for ONE year.

So lets say that an inmate is incarcerated at the age of 30 in New York. Lets say he lives until the ripe old age of 80 (& he spends this entire time in jail). The tax payers ofr New York will have spent $1,300,000 on him. Now what if he gets sick (most older people do), or if he gets cancer in his later years...Guess who pays for his medical treatment? You guessed right: The tax payers of New York.

Please tell me how this is fair...

midnite,

I have heard the same thing about it costing more to keep an inmate alive. When an inmate is on death row they must go through several appeals before being put to death.

That is a great story!!

I think that medical training tends to look at it more of a science than a service. Although you must be competent, you have to have that knowledge, but it's all about the people. I think schools should definitely have plenty of time devoted to relating with people, etc etc.

About the CPR thing, it depends on what the patient wants. There is a time to live and a time to die. Sometimes it's just not right to fight fight fight...run up a $30,000 bill if it is the patient's "time," if it will not really accomplish anything. So in these cases, it's wrong to treat older or extremely young patient as "just another person," each case is different. Care has to be centered around the best interest of the patient and their family. But if a doctor recommends that a DNR be signed (or something of the sort), it shouldn't be taken as an affront, simply a recognition that the time may be soon. Death isn't a failure, so it shouldn't feel like a "giving up" but more of an allowance to nature (or God). But, a patient should never be treated as anything less than human along the way. Read "On Death and Dying" by Kubler-Ross...very interesting book.

midnite:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108

PIP,

How is studying going? Done with finals yet?

JM, this is also true. But some criminals families pay for their appeals, or they find a law firm to do it pro bono. If all else fails they are appointed a public defender.

But somehow I highly doubt that a couple of appeals can cost more than almost a million and a half.

Do the math.

PIP,

I understand how much the death penalty costs.

Imagine $1,300,000 multiplied by 300 men in prison.

JM,

I am DONE! Today I turned in my final paper for lit (yes it was about Colbert!) and took my genetics final. Genetics pretty much kicked my a**. I'm trying to forget about it.

I took my Med Term final monday, turned in my final paper on the death penalty last thursday, and my other class has no final!

I'm driving home tomorrow! This is exciting! I am going to see the nutcracker for the first time since I left! (well actually it will be my first time to really "see" the local nutcracker ever, being in it is totally different).

midnite,

if you put all of these prisoners to death, would you expect the total to be less, or more?

PIP, I have 2 more questions to answer for biology and then I am DONE too!!! Eeeek I'm so excited!!!!!!!! What nutcracker are you seeing?

And midnite what about the innocent men and women wrongfully accused and on death row?

I haven't had finals for.... a year and a half! :P

Oh man, the weight lifted is enormous!! Good luck Elizabeth :)

I"m going to see the nutcracker in my little town. I performed in it for about 7 years, and I never got to go back after my senior year. My finals have always gone so that it passed the days. This year I have that opportunity :)

Occasionally we go see my brother in his nutcracker (he's a ballet major), which is REALLY cool, since all of the dancers are future professionals. And occasionally we go to the Tulsa ballet, which is cool. But really excited to see it again!

Anyone ever seen the movie "The Life of David Gale"
Although completely false it is really a good movie and very possible.

JM,

YES I have seen that movie and it was AMAZING!

PIP-

My brother is in the jofferey's nutcracker this year..and has pretty good roles..but he just came home with stomach flu after doing a show. He's such a trooper that one!

JM:

It was more common before the days of DNA for a person to be innocent and convicted of murder.

The Justice System is trying to erase these numbers.

They are lowering the number of "eye witness" testimonies, are uping the number of alleles used in DNA etc.

And PIP, death penalty sentences are not handed down as often as you'd think.

"Dead Man Walking" is another death penalty movie that I think is awesome. As awesome as a movie about people dying can be I guess.

wow, nice! He must be really good!

I didn't really like "Dead Man Walking", it was really preachy. Boring too.

Though I did bawl like a baby at the end. I couldn't help it.

PIP-
I bet it feels good to be done with finals.

Elizabeth-
I bet it feels good to almost be done.

Yeah he is a really awesome dancer. My other brother goes to a performing arts high school for dance. They pretty much rock. BUT if they get injured, I will be able to help them because I'll be an RN!

Elizabeth,

I love that movie! I have it on VHS (god I am old).

"I have it on VHS"

What a VHS. ;) just kidding

Midnite, we have about 3 movies left on VHS in my house..it's funny to look at them and think why we have them. I remember when that's all anyone had! Time goes by so fast.

"And PIP, death penalty sentences are not handed down as often as you'd think."

I know this, but you did not really address my question. You are saying that you think it costs more to keep them in jail for life instead of the death penalty.

If all of these men are put to death penalty the costs will rise MUCH higher than they are now, simply because (with the exception of states like Oklahoma and Texas) there are less people put to death, and look at how much is spent on it!

I'm not sure what you want if you don't want them spending money on the death penalty OR prison costs.

I am simply pointing out how much it costs to keep someone in jail.

I support the death penalty and I support life sentences as well.

Elizabeth-

I love that movie too!

I want to be in the medical field too :) And yeah those injuries are crazy. A couple years ago my brother got into a bad car accident, he had to do physical therapy for his back for a long while until it got better.

I just dont think they should be allowed all these luxuries in life that some people on the street cant not afford. That's really all I am bi&%hing about honestly...

Why do you support the death penalty, midnite?

I do agree though midnite that the prison system needs some major reform.

I support corporal punishment for violent criminals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LClXK59VP0Q

Seriously the funniest video ever, please watch. It's a dancing otter.

Which would you choose: to spend six months in a bad prison, or to be flogged six lashes? And yet the prison time is allowed but flogging is "cruel and unusual".

lol I"m sure spending six months in a bad prison is not going to equal 6 lashes.

The dancing otter is funny... but check this one out... its hilarious! make sure you volume is up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoOihBb78w

oh man i laugh every time!

PIP:

I support the death penalty for many reasons. Probaby the first is b/c I was raised by two police officers. I know the horrors of crime (I do live in the 6th "Most Dangerous City" list).

Another reason is I believe that a person spending life in prison (like Rudolph for example) does not deserve the right to breath air (for starters), or the other rights and luxuries afforded to prisoners. They're not really being punished in my opinion. And research has shown the rehabilitation does not work, so honestly, we're waisting money on trying "to fix" them or make them better.

"I do live in the 6th "Most Dangerous City" list"

I do live in the 2nd! Used to be the 1st! A girl got sexually assaulted walking across the street off campus.

I don't go to school in a safe area!

"And research has shown the rehabilitation does not work, so honestly, we're waisting money on trying "to fix" them or make them better."
Hm...I will agree with you about people who have committed grave crimes.
Prisons who invest in rehabilitation of lesser offenders help keep the repeat offenders down. I think that will be part of the equation to keep costs down. If all we do is train people to come right back to prison, only better at crime, then why prison at all? Of course the answer is either no prison for anybody, throwing more money at the problem, or drafting intelligent plans to help spend our money wisely in the future.

Oh yeah, and the bank in our student center got robbed. Demetri Martin had a lot to say about that when he came :)

PIP, I agree with you to a degree.

Yes, most convicts leave prison with more knowledge on crime then they went in with.

No, there is really no helping repeat offenders.

8%-35% of people incarcerated were in prison before, &/or they were in a detention center as a child.

I dont think trying to "help" repeat offenders is the real issue.

I think we need to educate our children more and stop the crime before it happens.

Yes we should midnite, but that should be part of a comprehensive plan. Many educated people become criminals. We should attack crime at all fronts. Crimes like drugs, robberies, etc are not grave offenses and in my opinion can be rehabilitated. Many reasons why such people are repeat offenders is that when they are put back in society they are in a compromised position, and often prefer to have a bed and be fed than be on the streets trying to steal a living again.

So attacking on all fronts needs to be done.

I say stop imprisoning illicit drug users as long as they are doing said drugs in the comforts of their opium dens/crackhouses/homes and/or not doing something idiotic like driving while stoned.

I say treat "illegal" drugs like alcohol and cigarettes, that'll reduce a LOT of the strain on the justice system.

Those are my two cents anyway. And repeal mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent crime (ie drug use).

*meh*

My abridged morality paper on the death penalty/physician's involvement is posted on my blog. I did include a disclaimer, that I had to sort of slap it together in the last minute, so the grammar/literary value is substantially sup-par. But if you want to address an argument or something, feel free to comment.

Sally, I am boycotting The Golden Compass,

Goodie for you. I'm sure that the world will be changed @@

SoMG,

I support corporal punishment for violent criminals.

You support corporal punishment for innocent children too, so what's your point?

JM,

Inconsistency... okay lets talk about inconsistency, why is it that conservatives are for the death penalty but against abortion. I mean anti-choicers are suppose to be for protecting life. But who cares about those on death row? When some of those on death row are innocent?

I guess we'll never hear that argument again...lol.

John L., Elizabeth, MK, Rae...all pro life or conservative...all anti-death penalty.

Midnite, SoMG, JM...all pro choice, liberal and pro death penalty...

hmmmmm....

I must be completely honest. I really have mixed feelings about the death penalty. Did anyone read about Canada's largest serial killer being captured? He was picking up drug addicts and hookers. He was feeding their remains to his farm pigs after he killed them. One witness saw a nude, dead woman hanging from a chain in his barn. Sometimes I feel that we have to look at the crime itself, and we can take it from there. Just my say.

BTW, I am so glad that the poor little gal pulled through!

Count me as another one against the death penalty.

OY! MK!

I'm not conservative!!! :-p

heather,

Our feelings of outrage are just that-feelings. They are not barometers for what is just or moral. Us wanting someone dead for the horrible things they did-that's revenge. And revenge leading in death- I can't support that.

PIP, I know. Like I said, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes I think it would be worse to sit in prison. I think I might ask for the death penalty. We had a guy in our state do just that. They called him "The Volunteer." He didn't want to do life in prison, so he asked the state to execute him. His wish was granted.

U.S. Supreme Court asked to halt 'Volunteer's' execution
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Lawyers also want 6th Circuit involved

Tuesday, August 25, 1998

BY BEN L. KAUFMAN
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Public defenders trying to stop Ohio from executing killer Wilford Lee Berry Jr. have asked the U.S. Supreme Court to intervene.

Monday, they also asked the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit to withhold its refusal to intervene in his execution. Mr. Berry is known as "The Volunteer" because he has said he would rather die than spend his life in prison for killing his employer in Cleveland.

No one questions whether Mr. Berry is mentally ill.

Rather, the issue is whether Mr. Berry is mentally competent to choose to die.

The Ohio Supreme Court says he is.

Mr. Berry's mother and sister say he isn't.

They are pursuing appeals with the help of Ohio public defenders and against Mr. Berry's wishes.

It could be weeks before the U.S. Supreme Court says whether it will hear the public defender's arguments.

Meanwhile, the family's immediate goal is a technical but vital step: stop the 6th Circuit from issuing the mandate that makes last week's ruling official.

In it, a majority of the 15-judge court refused to intervene in a three-judge panel's rejection of the public defender's arguments.

That ruling isn't official until the mandate goes out Wednesday; when it does, it will end any stay of execution and free the Ohio Supreme Court to set a new date.

A lawyer familiar with the court said that while not automatic, the motion to stay the 6th Circuit's mandate is more likely than not to be granted because no one has suggested the public defender's arguments are frivolous.

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I know, heather. I just wanted to give my perspective.

Here, I dug it up for the heck of it.

PIP, I appreciate that. I'm really just making some conversation. I'm still just not sure. Maybe you can help me.

I'm not going to see the Golden Compass. I blogged my reasons here:
http://milehimama.blogspot.com/2007/11/golden-compass.html

and responded to a reader about it here:
http://milehimama.blogspot.com/2007/12/reader-comments-golden-compass.html

I think instead of the death penalty, we should use the death row inmates to solve the energy crisis and produce "green" electricity. Hook up some exercise bikes to a generator and let 'em rip.

Rae,

OY! MK!
I'm not conservative!!! :-p

That's why I was very careful to say conservative OR pro life...

John L., Elizabeth, MK, Rae...all pro life or conservative...all anti-death penalty.

MK,

I am not liberal, nor am I conservative, I am in the middle and pick and chose the things I agree with...

::raises hand::

Pro-life, liberal, anti-death-penalty. Just another data point. :)

midnite said: "Have you ever thought about the families of the victims feel about the death penalty?"

Well, midnite, considering that I used to be in favor of the death penalty, I have absolutely thought about that.

I also know that executing a murderer doesn't bring your murdered loved one back to life. I don't deny that many of these murderers deserve to die. They absolutely do deserve to die! But what does their death accomplish? Nothing.

Also, you are missing a variable in your calculation for how much it costs to give someone the death penalty vs. how much it costs to give them life in prison. The missing variable is the length of time of the appeals process, which goes on for many years. During this time, the person is in jail, obviously, and that costs money.

Essentially, with a life sentence, you pay for the person to be in jail for many years, but that's all you pay for. With a death sentence, you pay for the person to be in jail for many years, but you also pay for the appeals process. Even with free lawyers, you're still paying for the use of the courts and all that it entails. Short of executing someone immediately after he's declared guilty, which does not and will not happen in America, it is not less expensive to the taxpayers to sentence someone to death.

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them?" -Tolkien

Also, as far as boycotting The Golden Compass goes, I am not interested in changing the world. I am only interested in helping the movie fail at the box office so that movie studios, which are motivated mainly by the almighty dollar, refrain from making anti-Catholic movies in the future.

Fortunately, Golden Compass looks like it's going to be a profound failure at the box office. It's barely passed the $30 million mark now, while the third Lord of the Rings movie blasted past that mark on its first day.

If that's not good enough, just look at what's coming out tomorrow: "I Am Legend" with Will Smith, which will definitely be the number one movie this weekend, and thus Golden Compass will only have been in the number one spot for one week. "Alvin and the Chipmunks" will likely come in second, pushing Golden Compass all the way to third. Good riddance.

John L, well said.

It should be noted that the families of the victims hardly ever feel closure after watching the murderer die. Most feel more unrest seeing the barbaric nature of the death penalty. Realization sets in that they will never get their loved one back and now they are watching someone else being murdered.

That is what I get from most of the testimonies I have heard so far.