Renelique was the abortionist on call when in 2006 A Gyn Diagnostics abortion mill owner Belkis Gonzalez allegedly killed an abortion survivor and threw the little girl in a biohazard bag onto her Hialeah, FL, clinic roof to hide the baby from police.
Renelique had been called several times while the baby's mother, Sycloria Williams, was in active labor but failed to show.
It got worse. According to records...
When the Respondent arrived at the Hialeah clinic, no staff member told him that the fetus had been delivered. The Respondent told an unlicensed staff member to start an IV in SW [Sycloria Williams]. The staff member was unable to accomplish this procedure....
The Respondent performed a dilatation and extraction procedure and discovered there was no fetus in the fetal sac. Staff then told him that SW had delivered the fetus. Despite this the Respondent claimed in the patient record that he had performed a dilatation and extraction abortion.
On February 16, 2009, the State of FL revoked Renelique's medical license. He is also one of several Williams is now suing.
Meanwhile, since Renelique had been previously licensed to practice medicine in NY, he hightailed it north, where until very recently the state website was good enough to list him (click to enlarge)...
... until his past caught up with him. Check the state website now, and Renelique's name is gone.
But that's NOT because NY has revoked Renelique's license. On October 13 it merely placed him on a 2-year probation. Disgusting. So much for women's health and safety. I'm sure liberal feminists will soon decry that this menace to female society has not been taken off the ob/gyn streets. Not.
Renelique must apparently file proof he has obtained malpractice insurance for $2 million per occurrence and $6 million per year before being relisted.
So at least then if he maims or kills a woman in NY, he'll be covered.
[HT: Tom Brejcha of the Thomas More Society, the legal firm representing Sycloria Williams in her civil lawsuit; Ed Brophy; Tom Cielska]
Hey pro-aborts. What a fine and respectable medical practitioner you have representing a "woman's right to choose". Yes, "lots" of Ob/Gyns want to be just like Pierre when they grow up and represent the best and the brightest of the medical profession who spend all day using dialators, speculums, currettes, vacuum suction (ripping apart unborn babies) and then piecing them back together again. NOT! Great post Jill.Posted by: Prolifer L at October 26, 2009 1:25 PM
Abortionist's are mentally ill-anyone who can destroy a growing, developing child in the womb is sick.Posted by: Robyn at October 26, 2009 1:46 PM
Why is the mother suing? She got what she wanted didn't she? The clinic killed her baby as promised which is why she went to the clinic in the first place TO KILL HER BABY, so why a lawsuit now? Smelling some money to be made no doubt. Any money she gets she should give away to a charity. Thats blood money. Her baby died for that money.Posted by: Sydney M at October 26, 2009 1:51 PM
Please search Jill's archives for posts and articles about Sycloria Williams and her baby. This young lady bought the lies and needs our prayers. What other recourse is there for Sycloria?
Wasn't Renelique under supervision in FL????
Was he employed in NY and doing abortions????
Wow, it looks like New York is abortionist heaven.
How is it harsh Carla? Didn't she go there to kill her baby? Yes, she did. And they did that for her. So what is she suing for? She laid there and let them throw her baby into a biohazard bag. I'm a mom and if someone tried to harm my kid--do you think I would just sit there on the couch and let them do it? I'm sorry but what am I to feel here. She got what she wanted-a dead baby.Posted by: Sydney M. at October 26, 2009 3:36 PM
I agree, Sydney. We can't act as though this guy is some roving freelance abortionist performing abortions against a woman's will. She went there specifically for that purpose. Women aren't stupid. They know what abortion is and what it does, and if they say they don't know, it's because they're lying to themselves because it is what they want to believe. It's easier for them that way.Posted by: xalisae at October 26, 2009 3:48 PM
I understand why you feel the way you do, but anyone who goes for an abortion is hurting badly. Please take a look at the many posts Jill has written on this subject. I believe this is the first one. Read Angele's and Christina's comments especially.Posted by: Janet at October 26, 2009 3:50 PM
Have you read her story? Have you seen the movie 22 Weeks? Have you talked to Angele the mother of Rowan? She comments here. Maybe you could share your thoughts with her. After all, she got what she paid for as well.
How does your condemnation speak to a mom who wasn't expecting her daughter to be delivered alive in a recliner? She was in no way prepared as a 19 year old girl for that. She was in shock! Belkis grabbed her baby and threw her in the bag of bleach and that was that. I guess I thought you had more compassion for post abortive moms. I paid for my abortion too. I got what I paid for too, I guess.
Your anger is misplaced on a young woman who was preyed upon by those that kill for greed. How about saving some of that outrage for Belkis?
I think there are two emotions many of us feel when we hear the word "abortion". First, understandably is indignation at the act, the abortionist, and possibly towards the woman. Second, if a woman is to heal compassion must follow....
The abortion industry issues women a bill of goods to make its money and then leaves her out in the cold. They bear responsibilty as well.Posted by: Janet at October 26, 2009 3:57 PM
So.......how about we pray for women who are struggling and not wanting an abortion but don't know what else to do?? What's done is done. How do your words help? You better believe that Sycloria KNOW NOW, right?
It is your judgment that keeps women who regret their abortions silent. Who wants to share their pain with those who say they got what they paid for??!!
Sad. I just finished a weekend at Rachel's Vineyard. I listened to the most horrifying abortion stories. I heard the pain and the anguish and the shame. It's a good thing I said to all of them, "Well, you got what you paid for."
I thought of you this weekend. God Bless.
Sorry if it's hard for me to feel compassion after fighting tooth-and-nail against what felt like the world to keep my little girl. I'm not special, I know anyone else could've done the same. So I can't help but feel as though anything less is a cop-out. People yell at me for being self-righteous and patting myself on the back: I'm not. Quite the contrary. I know how ordinary and even sub-par I am and can be, and that makes many situations in which women abort that much more frustrating for me. Look at Hal's kids...I wasn't married, had no place to go, and had to quit what at the time was a decent job at best. And yet my daughter is alive and two children of a lawyer are dead. It doesn't make any sense.Posted by: xalisae at October 26, 2009 4:13 PM
I understand why you may think and feel the way you do, Sydney and Xalisae but to write it out in that way hurts. It hurts to think of women that regret their abortions and have harbored their secret for years because of the condemnation they have felt from others. They might be reading this right now. I will stand up for them until they find forgiveness and not suffer in silence anymore. We didn't know what we didn't know back then. Not excuses. Reality.
Even the most hardened post abortive woman is hurting.
Thank you Janet for your comment about compassion.Posted by: carla at October 26, 2009 4:42 PM
Carla, I never said I was angry with the mom. Stop reading into my comments. Don't get me wrong, I WANT her to sock it to the abortionist! I want him to have to sell a kidney (or two) to pay the settlement. I am glad to hear she is sorry for the abortion, but my original question was, WHAT IS SHE SUING FOR? What can she possibly claim? They did what SHE ASKED THEM TO DO. Not that they are morally right, not that she isn't hurting, but how exactly is she a victim here? If the abortion had been completed properly and she had never seen the baby and she never felt a moment's remorse or guilt over that dead baby would she still be a victim deserving of money? Or just because she had the misfortune of seeing her baby...I'm just not understanding what her case is here.
I know you had an abortion Carla. I don't hate women who have had abortions or feel "anger" as you claimed I felt. I have a lot of friends who have traveled the same path as you. I just don't feel they should be rewarded for what they did. I'm not saying "hey lets punish them and throw stones at them!" either. Thats my point. No one should hand them a big check for killing their babies. I hug them and just listen when they need to cry and vent (and they know I am pro-life while they claim to still be pro-choice) and I will always be here for them but I don't think monetary compensation is appropriate.
Thats my viewpoint. Sorry if its harsh but its how I feel.Posted by: Sydney M. at October 26, 2009 5:10 PM
"She got what she wanted didn't she? She got what she wanted-a dead baby."
That is what you wrote. That is what I responded to.
If you are wondering why she is suing then your question would be that and nothing else.
I believe a child born alive EVEN during in an abortion is entitled to care and an effort should be made to try and save that child. Belkis should have called 911. When Rowan was born alive into a toilet the workers at the clinic should have let the EMT's in. They were turned away at the door as Rowan died in his mother's arms.
Posted by: carla
at October 26, 2009 5:25 PM
Carla--in re-reading your posts I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say that she can't grieve for her baby or that she can't regret her abortion cause "she got what she paid for." I MEANT how can she file a lawsuit...on what grounds? She gave them 1200 bucks to kill her baby and they did that. Thats what I meant...
I'm just looking at the insanity of it all...if they killed her baby in the womb it would all be okay, but since the baby breathed a breath of air and THEN was killed now the mom is going to court? I just don't get it...that breath of air is the difference between lawsuit or no lawsuit?Posted by: Sydney M. at October 26, 2009 5:26 PM
I'm wondering why she was suing, Carla, and why she should be rewarded for her abortion. If someone hired a hit man to kill a spouse and the killing went a little wrong and the spouse suffered more than was intended and the surviving spouse was REALLY SORRY should the spouse that hired the hit man be rewarded somehow? Again, I don't HATE women that have had abortions, I don't think they should be PUNISHED but I don't think they should be REWARDED either. And yes, definitely everyone in that clinic should be punished!Posted by: Sydney M. at October 26, 2009 5:33 PM
I guess I would like to see the mom testify in a criminal trial. I guess that won't happen but I would like to see her seek justice for her daughter and not profit monetarily from it. Thats why I'm hoping she will donate that money. It is blood money.Posted by: Sydney M. at October 26, 2009 5:36 PM
I believe that Sycloria is cooperating with people of conscience & conviction in seeking a measure of redress of grievances over the murder of Baby Shanice. It may very well be that there is no other person who can legally challenge this murder. I do not think that Sycloria will be making any money, but she is willing to expose her own sin & shame to bring attention to the evil of abortion & the preciousness of her daughter.
None of us knows Sycloria. Perhaps she would abort another baby if she became pregnant. We cannot/should not assume that she has savingly repented. All we do know is that Sycloria is willing to do something that casts her in a very negative light & exposes the unfruitful deeds of darkness. And, I am thankful for that. Most post-abortive women would never tell their story at all. They don't want to be exposed to public humiliation & shame. Out of millions of cases of mothers having their babies slain, how many of those women are willing to incriminate themselves in order to tell the truth about what abortion is & what abortion does? Let's pray for Sycloria to genuinely repent & cry out to Jesus to save her soul. Yes, Sycloria is a great sinner, just like me. But, thanks be to God, Christ is a great Savior.Posted by: Lifesong at October 26, 2009 6:07 PM
I can understand Sydney's point - hear me out -- and it just goes to highlight the insanity of the abortion rights argument. The fact is, that one breath of air DID make the legal difference, and it shouldn't.
We all know that child was a precious, sacred human being in the womb as well as outside the womb. Killing a baby in the womb is every bit as murderous and criminal as it is to kill a baby after birth. It shouldn't make any difference, yet it does in our warped, selfish and immoral society.
I think that's the irony I hear Sydney commenting on. And she's right, of course. It is completely insane to be able to prosecute this "Dr." because the baby was born alive and then killed, yet not be able to prosecute him for killing the baby in utero. That's what makes US Pro-life. We understand how stupid and irrational it is.
Carla... God bless you. I cannot imagine the pain and regret you live with, but I am very grateful you have come to understand the evil of abortion and the value of life. Your baby is alive forever, and I suspect, quite proud of you now. Peace be with you.Posted by: J at October 26, 2009 6:27 PM
"Women aren't stupid. They know what abortion is and what it does, and if they say they don't know, it's because they're lying to themselves because it is what they want to believe. It's easier for them that way."
Thank you X. My sentiments EXACTLY!
Just my opinion here, but I think you over-read what Sydney was saying and are being WAY too harsh on her. Her posts are always compassionate. TRUTHFUL, but compassionate.
The post at 5:50pm wasn't me.Posted by: carla at October 26, 2009 6:44 PM
Anyone know why abortionists always look like sharks? Ever notice their dead eyes?Posted by: Louise at October 26, 2009 6:49 PM
Carla, I too cringed when I read the judgemental comments in this thread towards post-abortive women. Thank you for being a voice for these women and for the unborn!Posted by: Rachael C. at October 26, 2009 7:12 PM
For example?Posted by: Marie at October 26, 2009 7:17 PM
I am Prolife all the way,but I have to say that this women was in the process of killing her baby and delivered a live baby.She does not deserve money for her childs death,but if she wins anything that money should go to honor that baby who was born and killed.I believe it should go to protect those babies who survive abortions, bring awareness to abortion and crisis pregnancy centers and etc.This women needs counseling not money.Also the clinic owner should be tried for murder technically the baby took a breath which prochoice people signify life.Abortion is infanticide.I thought genocide was a crime against humanity?Posted by: crystal at October 26, 2009 7:28 PM
I think the focus of the post has been lost here. What about these abortionists who ride the circuit, moving from state to state and regarding themselves above the law? Did he provide this woman any option other than abortion? Would love to see how the proaborts would react if Roeder escaped and was moving state to state. Would be a very different story then. Personally I'm glad this story has been brought to light; it shows that the depravvity of abortion doesn't end with the child's death but continues with the unjust and soulless treatment after. The more the American public is made aware of these well-hidden truths, the closer we are to ending them.Posted by: JillGuidry at October 26, 2009 7:31 PM
Women aren't stupid.
Those that are in a crisis, alone, broke and terrified are preyed upon by those in the baby killing industry. Some are forced, some are in fact not women, but children and some change their minds on the table. When you are told that it is a bunch of cells or that you can get on with your life, and the abortion clinic workers are hardly talking adoption you want to believe that they know how to help.
This whole thread begs the question, how is judging post abortive women helping them now? After the fact? I am so thankful for Rachel's Vineyard. So grateful to be a part of the hope and healing. http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
Whether you meant to or not I read condemnation in your comments. I apologize if that is not what you intended.
I am starting to understand that your lack of faith in God also goes along with your lack of belief in Satan. The evil that is abortion is a covenant with death. It is Satan's work. Even the devil believes in God.
I think I understand the anger that a woman could profit from a botched abortion while others suffer from "successful" abortions... but this kind of lawsuit is the only tool we have to stop abortionists. When they mess up -- whatever the law is willing to recognize as a mistake -- that is the golden opportunity to penalize them. And make no mistake, a malpractice lawsuit hits a doctor in many, many ways besides money. With only a little luck, this guy's license will be imperiled because he won't be able to obtain malpractice insurance. As a cold, practical assessment, an insurer will see him as too much of a risk. Or the premium will be too much for him to pay. Because the killing is legal, there has to be more than the baby's death for a criminal prosecution to succeed. Plus there is a lower standard for a civil case -- no "beyond a reasonable doubt", just "preponderance of the evidence." If women don't sue, the abortionists just keep on killing.Posted by: scotch meg at October 26, 2009 8:51 PM
I'm not trying to be offensive to you. I have so many questions, and if you don't want to answer them, I totally understand. It's just I'm not in the "post-abortive woman club". I will never understand what you ladies went through and will never understand what you are going through now. I thank God for that, but I also pray for all of you, and have shed many a tear reading your stories.
But one of the things I cannot understand, is the "bunch of cells" or "clump of tissue" argument. Jill has a post now that deals with something similar. Whether the baby is called a bunch of cells, clump of tissue, fetus, zygote, baby, etc...unless women (not young girls) fell asleep during biology and all of the health classes, she knows darned well that that "clump of cells" is still her child. Whatever word one wants to describe the baby doesn't change the fact that it's the woman's child in her womb. I truly think way deep down inside these women know this, and I also feel that sometimes it's really, really hard for us to be honest with ourselves.
In addition, why would the woman be scared or terrified of a bunch of cells? If she found out she was pregnant and really thought it was a bunch of cells or a clump of tissue, then why the fear? Why the "what am I going to do?"
Secondly, when the women gets the abortion, why does she complain about the bad treatment from the doctors or nurses? These are usually women who regret their abortions that say this, so honestly, what did they expect? A bunch of kind people giving them hugs and crying with them? I don't expect anyone to be kind to me. If it happens, GREAT! But to EXPECT it? That just isn't realistic in any walk of life, especially an abortion clinic.
I apologize if I seem brash, but these are two nagging questions that I, who am not a club member, do not and may not ever understand.
And Carla, please remember...I have literally shed tears for YOU. :(Posted by: Marie at October 26, 2009 9:05 PM
Very true Scotch meg! And very true Lifesong! I WANT the abortionist to be taken to court! I want this mother to WIN! I want all those who kill these children without remorse for money to be punished, and if that means hitting em where it hurts (in the wallet) then we should utilize every tool. I guess i never thought about the shame a mother would feel coming forward with a story like this. I am glad she came forward.
Carla, I meant no judgment, truly. Hugs to you! I was exactly as far along in my pregnancy as Ms. Williams was. Her daughter Shanice would be exactly my son's age. I was 6 months pregnant too when Ms. Williams ended her 23 week pregnancy. So when I first read this story it broke my heart into a million pieces. I have never forgotten it. ever.Posted by: Sydney M. at October 26, 2009 9:08 PM
Forgive me. We're good. I have so many post abortive friends. I will stand up for them. Sorry if I jumped on ya.
My abortion was 19 years ago. I never had fetal development in any of my classes. As for women that KNOW it's a child, a baby...I doubt that I could answer adequately for you. Asking Why? never seems to get us anywhere. It is so hard to explain. Honest. I asked myself WHY? for 18 years and had to stop. I was deceived. I wanted help. I didn't want an abortion. I had one. The problem isn't the baby. It is the situation a woman finds herself in. Scared and terrified of parents, friends, boyfriends, future?? Abusive relationships offer no way out. He will kill you if you don't kill the child. I don't know...the answers are as varied as the women who went through with the abortion.
I have never heard a post abortive woman complain about their treatment. I have heard the facts of how she was treated. Is it our fault the abortionist was angry and rude and the "nurse" loud and rough? You are right. They just are. BUT they come off as caring and helpful and years later one remembers.
I am so grateful that you are not in the club, Marie. I doubt I even answered your questions! :)
There might not be an understanding on your part, but I have heard so many abortion stories and recognize recurring themes in the lives of women.
What I have found out about myself is this. My abortion was indicative of how I felt about myself. It is how an abused, vulnerable woman treated herself and her body and her baby. I didn't know what to do.
Please don't cry for me, Marie. I have taken it all to the cross and know The Healer. Jesus is the only reason I can do what I do.
I appreciate your honesty and love straight talk!!Posted by: carla at October 26, 2009 9:29 PM
Actually, you did shed ALOT of light on this for me, and I thank you. I always looked at it as a mother and her child. I NEVER saw it as how you described it: "The problem isn't the baby. It is the situation a woman finds herself in. Scared and terrified of parents, friends, boyfriends, future??"
I know that sounds strange that I didn't look at it like that. But every time I think of abortion, the ONLY thing that comes to mind is one of those posters. That's what I see. I don't see a situation, I see a baby. Maybe it's like saying if I was ever walking down the street and a mugger came up to me to rob me, I'd kick him (or her) where it counts, elbow him/her in the stomach, etc., etc. But, I really don't know how I would react to something when fear takes a hold of the situation.
You are so helpful. It's really making me think. (can you tell? or can you smell the smoke?) :) Fear is the enemy. Fear comes from Satan. Hope and comfort come from God. We need to always be on our guard!
Thank you Carla. I'm so glad I asked you. I'm sorry for being such a pain in your butt!Posted by: Marie at October 26, 2009 9:40 PM
(here I go again...)
Maybe that's the key to ending abortion. Teach kids at a very young age how to deal with fear. How to ask for help, how to find a resource that can if you don't have support, etc. Not about pregnancy, but all aspects of how to deal with fearful situations. Drill it into the kids at a young age...fear management classes in school.
I don't know. just a thought.Posted by: Marie at October 26, 2009 9:45 PM
Emile, I think the issue is probably coercion. I would think most women are coerced into an abortion, therefore they are limited in their culpability.Posted by: Louise at October 26, 2009 11:06 PM
Emile (a.k.a 'internet troll') Carla makes NO excuses. She has stated MANY times that she takes responsibility for her actions. Carla is not a 'victim'..she's a VICTOR. She's not 'pointing a finger' at ANYONE.Someone should point a finger at YOU..and I think you know which finger! :) BTW No, I don't do that, that's why I said SOMEONE.Posted by: Pamela at October 26, 2009 11:48 PM
Emile, we are all guilty. If Jesus Christ truly spoke the Sermon on the Mount, then we are all guilty murderers of our own brothers (Matt. 5:21-26) and deserve to go to hell.
That doesn't mean that the civil government shouldn't carry out justice against murderers. The civil government can only punish crimes in deed, not crimes in word and thought. Abortion is indeed in deed, but American society is not yet at a place to punish mothers who kill their unborn children. Society still tells them that they did nothing wrong; in fact, as Carla said, society in many ways urges them to abort. We work to build a society in which forced (induced) abortion is unthinkable and as abhorrent as slavery now is.
If the civil government must be pragmatic and our approach incremental, the Church strives to follow more comprehensive standards of morality. God requires punishment for every single sin. Sarah Palin once voiced doubts she had felt when she had been informed of her son's Down's syndrome. Reassured by her husband's encouragement and obeying the voice of her well-informed conscience, she had quickly quelled those doubts. They were certainly understandable, maybe unavoidable, but nevertheless sinful. Still, she deserved to go to hell for them. Questioning God's goodness has always been the devil's strategy.
In the Old Testament God tolerated polygamy. Polygamy was never right; the people were just too stubborn. See Jesus' words in Matthew 19. Because God caused the Flood for the earth's violence, I think abortion is a much worse evil than polygamy. Still, mothers can only be punished for abortion when they and all of society recognize it to be murder.
At any rate, punishment begins with the abortionist who actually commits the deed or the doctor or pharmacist who prescribes or recommends the abortifacient.Posted by: Jon at October 27, 2009 2:41 AM
Do you see why I do not like the question WHY? Why did you have an abortion? Why did you do it? Why did you have your baby killed? Why would any woman have an abortion?
Those questions should be laid to rest by all who want to learn to love women hurt by abortion. The question should be How Has Abortion Hurt You? Then you damn well better listen and offer acceptance, grace and compassion. I can only do what I do because I have friends that have NEVER asked me why. Never.
I have done what I have done. Jesus Christ knows my heart. He has heard the cries of His daughter, He saved me from suicide over my abortion. I paid for an abortion. My daughter died there by my choice. Now, I get to hope and heal and offer that to others!! Amazing Grace.
I have been commenting here for almost 2 years now. Although I love all of you, I am not here for you. I am here for all of the post abortive moms who are still in the darkness. They are reading these threads, searching this blog. They are ashamed and they are hiding. I am reaching out my hand to them. I long for them to know freedom. I love them. Their pain is mine and I will stand firm on the forgiveness I have found in Christ and call out to post abortive women, "Take my hand!! You are not alone anymore!!"
firstname.lastname@example.orgPosted by: carla at October 27, 2009 6:10 AM
So sorry I asked.Posted by: Marie at October 27, 2009 8:00 AM
Why are you sorry you asked?Posted by: carla at October 27, 2009 8:19 AM
But Carla, you seem to act as though women who didn't abort didn't have "friends" at work who raved about their abortions and about how it was so easy and great for them, and you can get on with your life, and a baby would've ruined their lives, and probably yours too...or a boyfriend who said he would kill himself if you don't get an abortion...or got the speech from parents/grandparents/etc. about how they had better not get pregnant or they'd be finding a new place to live...You act like only women who have abortions have it so bad, and I don't think that's fair at all.Posted by: xalisae at October 27, 2009 8:25 AM
I only know my story and thousands of other post abortive stories. If that is your story then it is yours to tell, Xalisae.Posted by: carla at October 27, 2009 8:27 AM
Women who abort have killed their own child. I can never change that. Never. Women who didn't abort have their child. I am sure they didn't have an easy time either, but their baby got to live.
Am I missing something here?Posted by: carla at October 27, 2009 8:30 AM
I have never had an abortion. So I can't understand what the experience is like for women who have had one. I hug my friends as they weep for their babies and my heart breaks for them because they are my girls and I love them. BUT I can't understand what its like for them. What is their pain like? I can only try and imagine what it would be like if I had aborted my son, and even just imagining it is a horror so I am sure the reality of it for post-abortive women is just awful. After showing their grief my friends always try to convince me that they are glad they had abortions and that they are still pro-choice.
I'm glad Carla is reaching out her hand to post-abortive women. I wish every woman who has had an abortion could find the love and forgiveness of Christ. I have done many evil things in my life too...not abortion but other sins just as bad. Christ forgave me and set me free too! All sin causes guilt and shame. Christ is the answer for all of life's hurts!
I guess I get caught up in wanting to be loving and compassionate and fearing that being so is condoning the sin. Its something i am still figuring out. But certainly I feel empathy for the moms hurt by abortion. Women deserve so much better than this!Posted by: Sydney M at October 27, 2009 9:13 AM
All of my post abortive friends feel the weight of the sin of their abortions and the regret that we will always carry. I cannot imagine how hard it is to hold your friends as they cry and yet they still try to convince you and themselves that they are glad they had abortions. Why the tears then?
The post abortive women I know who do not regret it stay far from me. :) Oh, they watch me, follow me on facebook and know the work I do, but they do not discuss it with me. Yet.Posted by: carla at October 27, 2009 10:28 AM
I've been following this case from the begainning. Only a person, who has no realization of the mercy of God would dair say something as cheep and load down as, "She got what she deserved." What if Jesus didn't die on the cross for us? What if we were shown kno mercy? What if we got what we deserved? As christians, we are to show mercy upon people such as Sycloria Williams, instead of condimming her, How about praying for her for a change? I am not tallerent of this talk... She got what she deserve... It is cheep talk, and I will not stand for it! I will as I've always done, I will continue standing up for people like Carla, Angele, and Sycloria, because that's what Jesus Christ would have done.Posted by: RJ Sandefur at October 28, 2009 9:46 AM
RJ Sandefur, I think that some of you have possibly misunderstood Sydney's point...I do not for a moment think that she was being vindictive or trying to say that this woman "got what she deserved".
In my opinion, she was doing was asking a very legitimate question about on what grounds could the woman sue, since the abortionist performed the service that she had requested.
It makes no sense that if the abortionist had completed the abortion inside the womb, she would have not sued... but that since he completed the job she requested outside of the womb, she is able to sue. I think that was Sydney's point.
Why does being out of the womb make all of the difference? The baby is still the same baby, in or out of the womb.
I truly think that Sydney would be one of the first people to show Sycloria compassion in her time of grief...I can't imagine her ever condemning Sycloria if she showed sorrow over what she had done. I don't know Sycloria myself, so I can't say for myself whether she feels sorry about her abortion. I can only hope that she has repented and sought forgiveness in Christ.
RJ Sandefur--please read my post, two posts up from yours before you get all upset. you misunderstood what I was asking. completely. I wasn't condemning the mother's current actions. I think Bethany explained it perfectly. I'm gonna shut up now, cause I seem to be coming across the wrong way.Posted by: Sydney M at October 28, 2009 2:27 PM
And I want to say I know the mercy of God! What I deserve is HELL. What I have been given by God's grace is eternal salvation and fellowship with Him, not by any merit of my own! Not by my good works, or being a really great human being, or never sinning...cause that would be impossible to pull off. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for His great love for us all and His forgiveness for all our sins if we but ask!Posted by: Sydney M at October 28, 2009 2:31 PM
Sorry if it's hard for me to feel compassion after fighting tooth-and-nail against what felt like the world to keep my little girl. I'm not special, I know anyone else could've done the same. So I can't help but feel as though anything less is a cop-out.
This might not make sense to you, but don't you think that the will to fight tooth and nail was in and of itself a gift of sorts? The knowledge that you SHOULD fight?
Someone once stole something dear to me - sentimental value, not financial. They broke into my car and took it. I was so angry. I was not wealthy; I was a broke college student. I had to drive around with plastic on my window in the winter because I couldn't afford to get that stupid thing fixed for the longest time. I thought to myself, "If I can lay here starving myself to sleep, freezing in an effort to save on heating costs, sad and scared and poor, and *I* don't steal, then that jerk has no excuse for stealing from me."
But eventually I started to view my own insistence on not stealing - my ability to see stealing as WRONG no matter how much it might have helped me in the short term - as a gift I had been given, something I had that not everyone had. I had been given so many wonderful things that helped me to understand and respect the humanity of others. How sad that some people don't even have that - that sense of compassion and right/wrong and empathy. I would rather be someone who is stolen from, than someone who steals - and that's not a self-righteous comment, that's a comment of legitimate pity for someone who views theft as an appropriate solution. I would rather give up everything I own than give up the sense of respect and appreciation for other people that was instilled in me from a young age.
It's not always about what people CAN do. It's about what people realize they should make themselves do. That knowledge is as crucial to doing the right thing as the ability to do it is. And some people don't have it. How desperately, truly heartbreaking.Posted by: Alexandra at October 28, 2009 3:21 PM
Am I missing something here?
Carla, sometimes people can have a hard time setting aside their very understandable frustration. I am dealing with this in my personal life right now - there has been an ongoing source of tension between Mr. Alexandra and me for about two years. I wanted him to help me fix this problem, but he always kind of brushed the whole thing off. It reached a boiling point last month, and now he's all gung-ho about making some really important changes.
I should have been happy, but I was seething when he first told me all the things he'd thought of to change. Because this was all stuff I'd been telling him foryears. And while he'd been ignoring my advice or my pleas or my arguments, I'd been building resentment. So much resentment that none of this is just one problem anymore.
A part of me is almost angry that NOW he's so proactive about changing things. Like, "OH OKAY, once it gets to the point where I'm absolutely miserable and I just give up and stop trying to fix this, THEN you get off your butt and do something." I'm irritated by even his effort, simply because it's coming so much later than I wanted it to. Because it reminds me of my own efforts, and how they were essentially, passively, rejected.
But my emotions of irritation and frustration will not help solve this problem. They're real, and they're important, but they have no place in a conversation about how ready he is to make important changes in his life. If I sat there rolling my eyes and saying, "Oh, NOW you care," all that would do is make the problem worse. He can't change the ways he hurt me in the past; all I can do is try not to hurt him in retribution for them in the present. Sometimes the idea of hurting him now, flinging his past mistakes at him, seems like it would feel good to me. Maybe it would. Probably not for long. But what would it help?
This probably isn't making any sense. But I feel like that's part of what's going on here. The faceless woman getting an abortion is easy to project all of the anger in the abortion debate onto. And there is a lot of anger in this. You - and me, and everyone else - can't change the things we've done in the past, even if they hurt others or hurt us or whatever. Even if they were things that really pissed some people off. But regardless of the fact that they're in the past, regardless of the fact that we can't change them, they still make some people angry. And not everyone can set aside that anger.Posted by: Alexandra at October 28, 2009 3:38 PM
Alexandra, I appreciate your heartfelt posts. I can tell you really care about people a lot.
I do have to disagree with you though on some things you said.
Many people have the knowledge that they can do the right thing- and simply choose not to do it. Knowledge doesn't make people do the right thing. Conscience and principle does.
And I don't think that anyone on this thread has expressed anger towards post abortive women, unless I somehow missed it. I really don't.Posted by: bethany at October 28, 2009 4:26 PM
I read Sydney's first couple of comments and couldn't help but read into it that way.
Posted by: carla at October 28, 2009 4:38 PM
Many people have the knowledge that they can do the right thing- and simply choose not to do it. Knowledge doesn't make people do the right thing. Conscience and principle does.
Then substitute conscience and principle for knowledge. I didn't mean intellectual knowledge, I meant knowledge on a deeper level. Obviously some people do not have that. There is a reason people do bad things. Are they bad people? Or are they lacking SOMETHING that would give them the strength/knowledge/ability to do good things? If they are lacking - which I think is usually the case - that to me is very sad. The idea of someone who would obviously know on a superficial level that stealing is wrong, but would be so unconcerned with that fact as to do it anyway, breaks my heart. I would rather lack just about anything than that PRINCIPLE (better?).Posted by: Alexandra at October 28, 2009 5:56 PM
I understand righteous anger. Anger at the treatment of the innocent, anger at child abuse, anger at teen violence. I long for justice. I long for the day when abortion and other sin is no more.
I am sorry if I upset anyone on this thread. Really. Truly. My righteous anger and passion sometimes turn into impulsive posting.
I try hard to not take things so personally.
I am sorry also Alexandra that you are having a hard time with Mr. Alexandra. I will pray for you both. I miss you. You must be one busy girl!Posted by: carla at October 28, 2009 5:59 PM
Why is Sycloria suing? For One, the doctor didn't show up, when he said he would, for seconds, their unlicensed people at the clinic, when their should have been a licensed nurse on duty, etc.Posted by: RJ Sandefur at October 28, 2009 7:23 PM
Carla, I love ya! I can understand how you saw it the way you did.
RJ Sandefur, I think that information makes the case make more sense, certainly. I hope that you can understand how without that information it could be much more confusing to someone?
Do you happen to know what Sycloria's position on abortion is today?Posted by: bethany at October 28, 2009 8:36 PM
Then substitute conscience and principle for knowledge. I didn't mean intellectual knowledge, I meant knowledge on a deeper level. Obviously some people do not have that. There is a reason people do bad things. Are they bad people?
But there is always a reason that people do bad things...there's a reason that a child molester molests...there's a reason that a man rapes a woman...there's a reason people rob banks...etc... You can find a reason to feel sorry for someone and condone pretty much anyone's actions if you try hard enough.
I know people who feel sorry for child molesters and think they really can't help what they do. I've seen this kind of rationale cause so many people to excuse actions that are just horrible.
I think that after a while, you have to stop offering excuses, and you have to let people be accountable for their actions, particularly those that endanger other people...this is NOT to say to be uncaring or unkind- but you can't just walk up to someone who did something to endanger another person (and hasn't had a change of heart about it) and say "Well, you couldn't help it. It wasn't something you could control."
Doing so is dangerous for them and causes them to continue justifying their wrongdoings to themselves. How does that help them come to ever realize that what they did was wrong so that they can turn away from it?
I don't like making people victims when they were the one who did the wrong to hurt another person. I am also afraid that by saying this I am going to be misunderstood. To clarify, I am NOT saying that you should not feel compassion for someone who does wrong things- because we ALL do things that are wrong- what I am saying is that we can't just act like it doesn't matter when it does. We can support and love someone while simultaneously not justifying or condoning their actions.
I don't know if what I've said makes sense to you but I'm trying to help you see it from my point of view.Posted by: bethany at October 28, 2009 8:50 PM
Alexandra, thank you for your heartfelt post. I understood it as applied to what is going on here in this thread, but also thoughtfully applied it to my own life (as I have had some difficulties with my husband as well), and what you've said has really made sense! ((hugs))Posted by: Rachael C. at October 28, 2009 9:03 PM
“No one should lose their life if you get pregnant,” she said. “If I got pregnant again I would have the baby.” Sycloria Williams, The Florida catholic, Botched abortion in mother's own word's
Thank you, RJ...I appreciate that. :)Posted by: bethany at October 28, 2009 9:33 PM
Bethany, I understand your point of view. I just don't necessarily see why it's an either-or thing. I absolutely feel bad for child molesters. I also think that someone who molests a child should be punished, because he is ultimately accountable for his actions. It's not about excuses, it's about understanding. I don't believe that [most] people are "just bad." I think that people are complex. I think most people have a very complicated history of 'reasons' that go into why they do a particular thing - and I see no harm in examining and acknowledging those reasons, to the best of our abilities. There are reasons women abort. There are reasons men rape. There are reasons that guy stole from me. Reasons do not negate responsibility.
Someone hurt me once. Very badly. I don't mean broke my heart, I mean like actually hurt me. I feel such sympathy for him. I try to imagine the vast canyon between me and him, that led to me being hurt and him hurting me. I try to imagine what it must be like to be someone who knowingly hurts someone else. I would rather be the one who's hurt.
Raechel, I'm glad to hear that! I try to be pragmatic when it comes to these things. My feelings are always valid - as are anyone's - but that doesn't mean that it's always in the best interest of anyone for me to share them at any given time. There's a time and a place for everything - my firm belief. ;)Posted by: Alexandra at October 28, 2009 9:48 PM
Alexandra,I understand what you're saying and I agree- I don't ever want to get to the point where I feel such sympathy for someone that I condone what they do, but I do try to see it from another perspective so that I can understand what might have brought them to do what they do.
You have empathy, which many people do not have. That's a good thing!Posted by: bethany at October 29, 2009 8:08 AM
I don't know. Personally, I think empathy overcomplicates simple situations. Delving into the "Why?" tends to obfuscate the facts of the matter-what actually happened? Who is ultimately responsible? etc.,-and justice oftentimes gets lost in the shuffle.Posted by: xalisae at October 29, 2009 5:22 PM