Uhh... I don't know if my computer is just being stupid or what, but it's saying that that link doesn't exist.

sweet book. I'm still pro-choice.

Mine won't link either. I will try later. I want to order it!

Well, I'm not going to order it... but my curiosity has been piqued.

worked fine for me.

Of course it did. My computer's an idiot. Excuse me while I find an axe to put through it. Who around here is the one that married a computer geek? Send him over!

Then send him to my house.

try this directly:

http://www.angelinthewaters.com/onlinebook/coverpage.htm

says this page cannot be displayed.

I don't know about new - I've had my copy for two years almost - but it is a beautiful, sweet story. The artwork is very nice, too.

*wince* This really hits a border between indoctrination and brainwashing...

Still nothing, Hal.

Erin, it's a story based on a conversation with a toddler. Hardly "brainwashing". It's a very sweet story that helps children understand where they were before they were "here" and where they are going after they leave. I think it's a great book for parents to read to their children when they are expecting or when there is a loss in the family.

Leah, hae you tried using another browser? Somethings don't work well with firefox or mac.

Leah, try your search engine. I finally got it.

I bought this book for a couple of my neices, they seemed to like it and they didn't show any symptoms of brainwashing.

I am no longer (thankfully) using a Mac, but I have tried a couple different browsers. I'll try again later.

Our Pro Life group at church bought copies of this book and gave them to the pre-K thru 3rd grade teachers. We bought the Princess and the Kiss for 4th thru 8th. (Have no fear Erin, it's a Catholic School and our kids are already brainwashed)...

It's sad when a sweet, simple, pure story is thought to be a tool for propaganda. Can't it just be a story about life?

I have a completely unrelated topic. Does anyone have an opinion on what the (for lack of a better term) "best" version of the Bible is. I have a King James, but I'm not so fond of it because this King James that it's named after went through and changed a few things. Any opinions?

I have "The New Jerusalem" Bible. I like it just fine.

I thought it was sweet. Aaawwww. It made me think of my daughter.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tTYr3JuueF4

Hahaha--this is wonderful!

Leah, that was funny! Whenever I hear that song on the radio [ the original] I always crank it up for some laughs!

Leah, try the 1599 Geneva Bible, the version the Pilgrims carried with them.http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/geneva/Geneva.html

@Leah,

one of the best translations into English is the RSV - Revised Standard Version. The Jerusalem Bible (I think) was originally a French version translated into English. It is 'stiff' in places, but I really like the flow of the RSV. If you are particularly wealthy, 'The Interpreter's Bible' is excellent especially for the Old Testament.

Leah, I'm married to a computer geek, though I don't know if I'm the one you mean. Actually, I'm a computer geek, too. What exactly happens when you try to click the link? Have you tried typing the url in?

BTW, for Bibles I like the NASB.

What a cute widdle baby! It makes me want to strangle the mommy.

Smog, is that you?

Kirk/Somg, your post clearly demonstrates a hatred for women. You're so sad in a psychotic sort of a way.

To learn more about Kirk Smith, see DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE with the late great Nicholas Worth.

Oh yes. It is you. Wassu matter? Are you havin a bad day because of George Tiller? HAHAHAHAHA!!

I like the King James, though I'm not all "KJ ONLY". The NIV is alright, but I find it a bit lacking at times.

For a "readable" bible, the Message is good. It's not something I would suggest to be your primary bible, but it's great to have if a passage is confusing.

Leah, go to www.bible.com They have a feature that allows you to compare different versions. See where you feel led.

Well, I will say at least thank goodness that this is better than that one poem that circulates regularly through the net...what was it, "Mommy, I am three days old and already 8 inches long!"

OMG GIANT MUTANT FETUS!!!

Erin, I know what you're talking about, but I don't think it's biologically inaccurate. Now, the whole talking thing obviously is, but I don't think it exagerates physical development.

*heart attack*

An 8 inch long week old fetus isn't inaccurate? You know how big that thing would be at 9 months if it grew exponentially the way a fetus is supposed to? It would be able to eat you in 9 months!

No, I'm saying that they didn't say "8 inch long fetus".

Here: A biological comparison based on the poem/whatever it is

Month One

Mommy, I am only 8 inches long, but I have all my organs. I love the sound of your voice. Every time I hear it, I wave my arms and legs. The sound of your heart beat is my favorite lullaby.

The Truth
The fetus is about the size of a raspberry and is indistinguishable from any other animal fetus.

PS If a fetus grew 8 inches in the first month, that would mean that every single tubal pregnancy would end in death, sometimes before the mother knew she was pregnant. Even if it wasnt tubal, the womb cant stretch that fast, because the pregnancy hormones that allow it to cant keep up. It would rupture.

Month Two

Mommy, today I learned how to suck my thumb. If you could see me, you could definitely tell that I am a baby. I'm not big enough to survive outside my home though. It is so nice and warm in here.

The Truth
About the size of a kidney bean, has some webbed fingers. Does not move of its own volition, moves with pulsations of the uterus.

Of course you can tell it is a fetus. Fetuses dont look like anything else but fetuses. In any case, it still looks very similar at this point to an amphibian, a cow, a reptile, or an ape fetus.

Month Three

You know what Mommy, I'm a girl !! I hope that makes you happy. I always want you to be happy. I don't like it when you cry. You sound so sad. It makes me sad too, and I cry with you even though you can't hear me.

The Truth
About two inches long, with transparent skin, with no spine and minimal nervous development. Looks more human.
Every fetus starts out female and is changed later on by the Y Chromosome or lack of it. When the mothers hormones reach a tipping point, it is activated and homologous organs change to either male or female and the penis may start to protrude. This does not happen until about the fifth month.

Month Four

Mommy, my hair is starting to grow. It is very short and fine, but I will have a lot of it. I spend a lot of my time exercising. I can turn my head and curl my fingers and toes, and stretch my arms and legs. I am becoming quite good at it too.

The Truth
About the size of an avocado, covered in a wax like substance called lanugo. Sex is only now becoming apparent, because the y chromosome or lack of it is only now activated by the hormones surrounding the fetus.

Erin, I loved reading that while I was pregnant. AAAWWW, you didn't like it? I love the part about the heartbeat and the lullaby.

I think it can be cute for expecting parents- but shouldn't be used as a reliable source of information or as pro-life propaganda. The kids book, honestly, it doesn't bother me too much. It doesn't really have anything to do with abortion. Kids are supposed to fantasize. It's healthy.

I stand corrected. I was going on memory and hadn't seen the email in quite some time.

I thought it was a sweet story, but at the same time it was still a bit creepy.

With that said, here's a little clip I found on YouTube when I looked up "chocolate"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UI5Mqn4Fr5w

What do you think?

That book is full of so many medical inaccuracies and Christian mythology that it's not even funny.

Everyone,
I think what the letter refers to as months, are intended to say "trimesters", which taken in that context would better match the descriptions given.

Erin,
Just wanted to point out that your description of the developing embryo is vague and misleading (by comparing the human offspring to animal offspring). I'm wondering, who is your source? I don't have the time to type out a detailed month by month, but a more accurate and detailed description of embryology and fetal development can be found at the following embryology websites and a simpliar explination of the Carnegie Developmental Stages in relation to LMP can be found at the following pregnancy website. Just for reference, gestation is often determined by days post ovulation by embryologist, but dated by Last Menstrual Period by doctors (since each woman's menstrual cycle is unique).

The Visible Embryo: Carnegie Stages
http://www.visembryo.com

UNSW Embryology
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryo.htm

THE ENDOWMENT FOR HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
http://www.ehd.org/science_main.php

Pregnancy.org: Fetal Development
http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php

A Choice to Live With: Prenatal Development
http://www.choicetolivewith.com/fetaldevelopment.html

"Loser artists" ? (this one really gets to me)
"If I wasn't a nicer person you'd lose more than your head" ?
"New Jersey is where we dump all of our trash" ?
"We should put a statue of your mother with her genitalia and ask people to eat her for mother's day" ?

I'm at a loss to see why Catholics still allow this man to speak for them. He's probably one of the least Christian acting people I have ever seen.

I loved how he was parodied on South Park, though ;-)

Leah:

The Jerusalem Bible is basically a Catholic Bible, a very good translation, however, it contains additonal books called the Apocrypha. Books like Tobit, etc. Most scholars do not believe that these books are inspired and we should be careful to read them.

In my opinion, the best translation is the New Living Translation. Check it out for yourself.

Hal,

Your vulgarity hasn't changed one bit. Very sad for a guy who's been blessed and doesn't have a clue from whence the blessings came.

Erin:

The truth: Jesus Christ is Lord and He's not an abortionist.

It doesn't matter what Christ says. In this case, man says, rather ignorantly, that a fetus is 8 inches at one month. Wrong. 'Christ' made it so a fetus isn't remotely that big until around month 5 or 6. Nothing to do with religion or abortion- just the basic facts of gestation.

Hahah! I have finally conquered the evil computer and read the book!

I don't see how this would dissuade anyone from being pro-choice. It doesn't give any reason as to why a person shouldn't be. It's just an author's perspective on an unborn child's "life" inside the womb. Cute. But not relevant.

A friend recommended the New International Bible. Thanks everyone for their opinions. I've been going through a hard time lately and I've been finding a lot of comfort in increasing my spirituality. Cheers!

Hisman,

I love you babe, but the "Original" scholars, as in the doctors of the church, are the ones that determined the "extra" books in bible were inspired.
It wasn't until 1500 years later that "new scholars" determined these books weren't from God. I'm puttin' my money on the first guys. It was those "new scholars" ala Luther that took the book of James out of the bible for awhile too.

What if tomorrow a third group of Scholars decided to just drop a few books that are in there now? How would you feel if next week the book of Matthew was thrown out because "most scholars" agreed that it wasn't inspired?

Just something to think about...

Leah,

I suggest you pick up a book on Padre Pio and a copy of Theology of the body...also Jeff Cavins has a program called the "bible time line" which helps you to understand the Old Testament...

You know where to come if you have any questions.
Hisman and Bethany know the bible inside and out and Val, John, Carder and I are well versed in Catholicism...

You have a bottomless source of information right here...

John,

Bethany just sent me a link to your website...
Not only are you a genius, kind, compassionate, funny, patient, warm, clever and creative...but you are reallllly good looking! I think you have elf blood in you! And you're eyes...I get the feeling I could tell you anything!

Women must be crazy not to want a piece of you!
(Don't tell my husband I said that!)

http://www.personainternet.com/jlmcdonell/

I figured you wouldn't mind me putting this up because your "name" on Jill's comes up green and I assume it should link to your site...but it doesn't work...

If you want me to remove this link, just email me.
But I think everyone should see how amazing you are. Not just how amazing you look, but the stuff that you've written as well...yowzer!

All right Jill, how can we fix this "anonymous" thingy...I am many things, but anonymous ain't one of them...Me? Hiding in the background? I don't think so...my family would be rolling on the floor laughing at that one!

MK

John, you are a very handsome man! You look just as I had pictured you.

MK, is that you? Can't you get your screen name to pop up?

Yeah Heather,

It's me! I have no idea why or how this happened but it's making me crazy!

Any ideas?

MK

MK, I'm having probs. myself. No computer genius here. I haven't a clue. My flag [top right of screen] has been stopping. My computer has been running slow. Not sure what's up.

Erin, 7:48p: Re: that "pro-life propaganda" poem, someone obviously transposed dates during the email Chinese telephone. My educated guess is pro-aborts did it for a laugh. I've googled the poem, and it seems to always be reposted by adolescents/teens who don't know any better.

Month One should be Month Four.

Month Two should be Month Five.

Month Three: Can't be dated. Sex is determined at fertilization. Sometimes it can be visualized early on ultrasound, and sometimes, due to the baby's position, it can never be determined by ultrasound.

Month Four should be Month Six.

The original poem was called "Diary of an Unborn Child"...I read it when I was 12...The author is anonymous (No, not me!)

Jill is right. The idea was taken and run with, changed, turned into a song and ended up as what Erin saw...

Here is the original.

October 5
Today my life began. My parents do not know it yet, I am as small as a seed of an apple, but it is I already. And I am to be a girl. I shall have blond hair and blue eyes. Just about everything is settled though, even the fact that I shall love flowers.

October 19
Some say that I am not a real person yet, that only my mother exists. But I am a real person, just as a small crumb of bread is yet truly bread. My mother is. And I am.

October 23
My mouth is just beginning to open now. Just think, in a year or so I shall be laughing and later talking. I know what my first word will be: MAMA.

October 25
My heart began to beat today all by itself. From now on it shall gently beat for the rest of my life without ever stopping to rest! And after many years it will tire. It will stop, and then I shall die.

November 2
I am growing a bit every day. My arms and legs are beginning to take shape. But I have to wait a long time yet before those little legs will raise me to my mother’s arms, before these little arms will be able to gather flowers and embrace my father.

November 12
Tiny fingers are beginning to form on my hands. Funny how small they are! I’ll be able to stroke my mother’s hair with them.

November 20
It wasn’t until today that the doctor told mom that I am living here under her heart. Oh, how happy she must be! Are you happy, mom?

November 25
My mom and dad are probably thinking about a name for me. But they don’t even know that I am a little girl. I want to be called Kathy. I am getting so big already.

December 10
My hair is growing. It is smooth and bright and shiny. I wonder what kind of hair mom has.

December 13
I am just about able to see. It is dark around me. When mom brings me into the world it will be full of sunshine and flowers. But what I want more than anything is to see my mom. How do you look, mom?

December 24
I wonder if mom hears the whispering of my heart? Some children come into the world a little sick. But my heart is strong and healthy. It beats so evenly: tup-tup,tup-tup. You’ll have a healthy little daughter, mom!

December 28
Today my mother killed me.

— Anonymous

On the Bible: The most accurate version would be the Latin vulgate, translated by St. Jerome. Unfortunately, it, well, in Latin.
The KJV and Douay Rheims were based on that translation. The RSV is based a new translation that included all of the new findings. I use RSV for "regular" reading, Douay Rheims and RSV for researching passages.

I would stay away from Living Translation, Learning Bible, etc. because they are paraphrased according to the theology of the particular author/translator.

www.biblegateway.net has lots of different versions searchable by keyword for free online.

To Erin:
I haven't read the poem you are referencing, but:

The Truth
The fetus is about the size of a raspberry and is indistinguishable from any other animal fetus.

Actually, while visually similar, it can be distinguished. Careful study of the cells would reveal that it is human with DNA distinct and different from that of his mother.'

Oh milehi,

Don't be ridiculous...DNA can prove it's human, but according to Less and many others every cell in the human body is a "human"...their words not mine!

Can DNA prove that it has acquired "personhood"? That's the question!

Nuts, huh?

JILL!!! I DON'T WANT TO BE ANONYMOUS!!!!
I'll be Claudette Colbert, Madame Curie, Mickey Mouse, Jack Sparrow or Mullet head...But I DON'T WANT TO BE ANONYMOUS!!!!

Jil, I posted last night and a message after I posted said it was in the moderation que (probably due to the number of relevent links I provided) could you please approve it?

Leah, that video was funny! I forwarded it to staff at my church.

Re: Bibles, my personal Bible is the God's Word version. Someone here also mentioned The Message, which is fun to read - gives a completely quirky, sometimes profound perspective - although I agree it shouldn't be the primary source.

For someone just starting out, however, I think the NIV Study Bible might be best. It includes accurate footnotes for just about every verse. They elaborate, explain, link to similar verses, and often contain interesting archeological acts that connect Scripture to historical finds.

Leah, the Bible promises in Jeremiah 31 that you will be able to understand, no matter where you are spiritually: "This is the brand-new covenant that I will make... They will no longer go around setting up schools to teach each other about God. They'll know me firsthand, the dull and the bright, the smart and the slow."

(That was The Message translation. Fun, huh?)

Start with the Book of John.

God speed.

December 24
I wonder if mom hears the whispering of my heart? Some children come into the world a little sick. But my heart is strong and healthy. It beats so evenly: tup-tup,tup-tup. You’ll have a healthy little daughter, mom!
December 28
Today my mother killed me.
— Anonymous

MaryKay, that was the VERY first pro-life pamphlet I ever read, when I was a little girl, probably 7 or 8 years old. That was also the only one I ever read until after I got married. I remember reading it and feeling so desperately sad. I couldn't imagine anyone doing that to their baby. I didn't believe that anyone did either. I lived in a rose colored world where every mother loved her child dearly. I still wish I could live in that world, I wish it existed.
I haven't seen that poem in such a long time, and I appreciate you posting it again, and refreshing my memory. I was trying to remember it recently.

MaryKay, try signing into typepad?

Thank you for posting the "real" poem "anonymous" *sniker sniker*.

Poor MK

Bethany, My upbringing was similar. What was an abortion? Who killed their children? I learned about it in high school.

Woops, I just realized that might not read the way I mean it. I meant thanks for posting the real version as opposed to the "new" versions that seem to be going around.

Then I was just joking about you not being able to sign in.

The way it's written looks like I think your version is fake. Alas...

Mary Kay wrote to John:
Bethany just sent me a link to your website...
Not only are you a genius, kind, compassionate, funny, patient, warm, clever and creative...but you are reallllly good looking! I think you have elf blood in you! And you're eyes...I get the feeling I could tell you anything!

I second that!

Bethany, My upbringing was similar. What was an abortion? Who killed their children? I learned about it in high school.

Heather, it took me a long time, even after I was married, to believe, really believe, that a woman really would do that to her own child. It just was too hard for me to comprehend. I didn't want to believe it. It was too horrible.

Something as beautiful and innocent as a child, being destroyed by the one person who is supposed to be their nurturer, their protector, their mother.,...the one and only person who can keep them safe and healthy during their short months in the womb. I considered the womb such a safe place...a cocoon for babies. It hurt me so deeply to think it was true, women really do do this, and when I realized it really was happening, I was so depressed about it. I remember crying about it many times, seeing those pictures of aborted children, and then talking about it with people who would call babies "ZEFS", something I had never heard of until I talked to some heartless people in an abortion forum.
And they kept calling me a woman hater, which really puzzled me. I hate women because I hurt to see babies being killed? That never made sense to me. From my point of view, I considered a woman an angel, someone who loved and cherished her child. To then see that person taking the child out and destroying it, it made my stomach churn. Just as it makes my stomach churn to think of what Andrea Yates did to her children.

Jill, the book is beautiful! I think I will be ordering it.

Bethany, I was on My Space this morning, and I just can't believe the advertisements that these PC sites put up. One of them has a picture of an old car with a small sign that reads "Abortion Clinic" another picture is an old dilapidated basement. It reads "Do YOU Want To Go Back to This?" Another is a picture of an old, filthy bathroom with a caption "Recovery Room" talk about scare tactics. Hello....we are still living like this. They have such a brainwashed following.

"And they kept calling me a woman hater, which really puzzled me."

or they use the word "misogynist" which refers to somebody who hates women. I could never understand it, and they throw that word around so easily. I'm a hater of women because I'm against babies being killed in the womb ??. I think they're the misogynists.

I learned about abortion from graffiti in the girl's bathroom. Someone took black magic marker and wrote .... Blank -[the girl's full name] Is a baby killer!

Jasper, yes, that's the word I got called repeatedly. And I didn't actually know what it meant till then, and I looked it up, and realized that was what it meant, and I was confused as to why I was a woman hater. Hating any women hadn't even occurred to me at all! All I hated was seeing those poor babies dying!

Wow, Heather, what a strange way to find out about it. What did you do next to find out more? Search about it in books or the internet? Or talk to friends about the person who's name was on the stall?

They seem to think that they are speaking for all women, but once you disagree with them, look out. It's gonna get ugly! They are all hollering about women's rights being threatened. Send donations now. Pictures of PC celebs. One featured Whoopi Goldberg waving a coat hanger [her favorite thing to do] I wonder how she and Elisabeth Hasselbeck are going to get along on 'The View' I wonder how many times they will clash on the abortion issue.

Bethany, I was on My Space this morning, and I just can't believe the advertisements that these PC sites put up. One of them has a picture of an old car with a small sign that reads "Abortion Clinic" another picture is an old dilapidated basement. It reads "Do YOU Want To Go Back to This?" Another is a picture of an old, filthy bathroom with a caption "Recovery Room" talk about scare tactics. Hello....we are still living like this. They have such a brainwashed following.

They really do...and where are these same people when places like the abortion clinic in New Jersey, and that abandoned building with the Chinese guy doing abortions for 150 bucks (with no hot water or sterilized equipment) get busted? They totally ignore this stuff! It's outrageous.

Whoopi's going to be on that show? I guess I'll be seeing more youtube videos soon! They will definitely not be getting along when it comes to abortion!

Bethany, I did sort of know what abortion was about, but I had never heard of anyone talking about it. Yes I did self educate. I always felt it was a dirty word. I think it still is. Believe me, I did NOT pull Baby Killer out of the sky. It's been around.

Unfortunately she got the gig. I know that Whoopi has had a few abortions. I know that she is PC. I have also read that she claims to have performed an abortion on herself, @ age 14, in the middle of Central Park. That's why she is so staunchly PC and always waves a hanger.

Bethany, Whoopi claims she aborted herself with a hanger. [I left that out of my above post]

I have also read that she claims to have performed an abortion on herself, @ age 14, in the middle of Central Park.

Wow, does anyone actually believe that? And if they do, and she did this abortion so well and survived, why is she waving a coat hanger around like it's so awful? Obviously, according to her, it can be done with no real problems afterwards...

Bethany, Amanda and I have discussed this before. Whoopi has made this claim, yet I can't find an ounce of evidence to support her claim. I smell a rat. I wonder if she just made it up. That would be disturbing. I was reading that she has admitted to 3 legal abortions. Sounds like someone has been using the abortion clinic as B/C.

I wonder if she just made it up. That would be disturbing.

I wouldn't doubt it.

Lauren,

Woops, I just realized that might not read the way I mean it. I meant thanks for posting the real version as opposed to the "new" versions that seem to be going around.
Then I was just joking about you not being able to sign in.
The way it's written looks like I think your version is fake. Alas..

Now don't you wish you could be anonymous too?
I knew what you meant! It was you after all! LOL

I stand corrected. I just went to my search engine. Whoopi has had 8 legal abortions. I am pulling up something about her making some crude jokes about her self abortion as a teen. A black male author has described her as "crude" and "despicable." I'm afraid I must agree.

Hey A:

Nice to meet you.

Take a look at some of those extra books. Anyone with any spiritual discernment know that these books were not to be included in the Canon of the church.

What about the agnosticism that crept in, etc.? The Word does not contradict itself.

Hisman,
At the time the Christian Bible was being formed, a Greek translation of Jewish Scripture, the Septuagint, was in common use and Christians adopted it as the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. However, around 100 A.D., Jewish rabbis revised their Scripture and established an official canon of Judaism which excluded some portions of the Greek Septuagint. The material excluded was a group of 15 late Jewish books, written during the period 170 B.C. to 70 A.D., that were not found in Hebrew versions of the Jewish Scripture. Christians did not follow the revisions of Judaism and continued to use the text of the Septuagint.

Protestant reformers in the 1500s decided to follow the official canon of Judaism for the Old Testament rather than the Septuagint, and the excluded material was placed in a separate section of the Bible called the Apocrypha. Protestant Bibles included the Apocrypha until the mid 1800s, but it was eventually dropped from most Protestant editions.

The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches continue to base their Old Testament on the Septuagint. The result is that these versions of the the Bible have more Old Testament books than Protestant versions. Catholic Old Testaments include 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), additions to Esther, and Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel. Orthodox Old Testaments include these plus 1st and 2nd Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151 and 3rd Maccabees.

The Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox New Testaments are identical.

You'll have to be more specific. If all the new testament books are identical, then where is the "agnosticism" coming from? The Old Testament? The Jewish Leaders are the ones that changed that.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you are trying to say.

Hey Anonymous MK, if you look back at your 7:33a post, you're you. You did something right that time.

Jill,
I went into the edit page, but got frustrated that I would have to go one by one and it wouldn't change anything in the future! HELP!

Rachael, ok, I saw your post and approved it. Sorry for the delay. It had links in it, which red flags it.

All, Rachael posted good info at 9:52p last night.

Have you got the "remember me" button selected when you type in your info?

I remember reading Whoopi's story in the pro-choice book, "The Choices We Made: Twenty-Five Women and Men Speak Out About Abortion" several years ago, but I can't recall how many abortions she's actually had, although one was self-inflicted that I know of. I once read an excellent blog entry by another pro-lifer by the name of Julie on abortion as a form of self-abuse.
In brief, 'An unwanted pregnancy certainly causes psychological distress. Abortion will provide temporary relief from that stress using a kind of amputation – the removal of the natural, biological consequences of procreative sex. Abortion can also repeat the trauma of sexual and physical abuse by invading the most intimate part of a woman’s anatomy at a time when she feels most helpless. The goal of abortion is destruction. The result of sexual abuse is also destruction. Often a woman who “succumbs” to coercion to abort is repeating a pattern learned earlier in life, that her body is not her own to control, and she must give to others the right to inflict pain on her. Cutting, burning, and other expressions of self-injury can often be a way for her to feel in control again. “It is MY body, and I will be the one to hurt it,” certainly seems odd, and is an echo of the pro-choice battle cry, but for the woman who learned to equate love with pain and helplessness in childhood, it makes sense.'
And I wonder if there's a correlation between self-inflected abortions with sharp objects and poisons and self-abuse or a history of low-esteem/pyschiatric issues.
Rachael
(posting anonymously because I'm at work)

Rachael, those are good links...the week 6 fetus looks so much like my baby who miscarried in February.
Erin's baby was a little bit more developed than mine when she had her abortion. :( (Incidentally, Erin could have chosen to find out the sex, had she taken the remains to a doctor, even at 8 weeks, since sex is determined at fertilization.)

I don't think my baby looked anything like an animal fetus. It's insulting that anyone would say so, hurting thousands of women, just to justify their actions to themselves and others.

MK, great post! I have something to add after I put on a pot of coffee.

Bethany, That is terribly hurtful. However, no matter what it looks like to THEM, if a woman's pregnancy is carried to term, it will NOT result in the birth of an animal!!

MK, I agree with that! Pro choice men are the FIRST to use a PC woman for her body. It's okay with the PC man to use the PC woman for his own sexual gratification, knowing that she will then turn her "used up body" over to the abortionist. Then the cycle seems to repeat. The woman may return to the abortion clinic for repeat abortions in her future. I am telling you that I have observed post abortive women's behaviors. They abuse alcohol and drugs. They are generally promiscuous. They get involved in dysfunctional relationships. Their self esteem is low. It's self destructive behavior, and I believe it is linked to abortion!

... away for a few hours and see what happens!!!

I forgot to tell Heather about multi-tasking ... my brother and I were exchanging thoughts on the MSM - messenger service. He hit me with about five different topics at once ... and he continued to flit from one to the other.

I said where the h***? He said his son (20) had taught him this technique. Thanks but no-thanks - I have hard enough time with one line of reasoning, let alone 5! So, if I'm left in-the-dirt (and I often am), I just might make some dirt-cookies like a wee kid!

......... thanks again for your input here and your willingness to be friends .... where's Mary anywho ... I do miss her solid, straight-shooting ... kinda grounds me! ... (gulp) like MK, kinda-sorta miss Cam too .... [don't tell him though!]

The Truth
About the size of a kidney bean, has some webbed fingers. Does not move of its own volition, moves with pulsations of the uterus.

That is not truth.

At the age that you are speaking of (2 months), the fetus is able to jump like crazy, and move his little arms and legs in the watery environment of the womb. I am speaking from experience of seeing my oldest boy jumping around on the ultrasound monitor...I was amazed how high he could jump, and he looked so adorable! I couldn't believe he was moving like that and I couldn't even feel it!

John, Mary is here! :) She has been posting to you, but her name is coming up as "anonymous"...check out all the posts by anonymous and you'll find her! :)

Heather--no one was saying that a woman would give birth to an animal. It was simply stated that at that stage of pregnancy, a human fetus looks very similar to many animal fetuses (fetii?) as well. It wasn't a personal attack on any... fetus.

Your statement on PC men is a gross generalization. When my ex (who didn't believe abortion was right, but affirmed that a woman has the right to choose) and I had a pregnancy scare, we discussed ALL our options. The only thing I said I would not do was give it up for adoption. And do you know what? We were leaning heavily towards keeping the baby and spending the rest of our lives together, which would have been (as he put it) "not so bad" considering the circumstances. Of course, I found out I'm not pregnant, breathed a sigh of relief... and now he's moved 2000 miles away. But if I had been pregnant, I would be joining him in January... not having an abortion. And he, by definition, is pro-choice.

Oops, I just realized you meant the other Mary! My bad!

Is Mary anonymous or is MK anon.?

Bethany- I aborted at 5 weeks, dear.

I'm sorry to have caused a big stir with that little PL ditty by the way. It's just that that thing is ALL OVER the internet...everywhere...and it drives me nuts. Largely, it's just that 8 inch statement- and the fact that a lot of uninformed people that I've talked to on other sites will DEFEND that. When it's very obviously not true. I'm fine with that other one, the 'original' apparently, because it's roughly biologically accurate. I have a lot more respect for opposing sides in a debate when they aren't saying things that aren't true.

Hi Erin. I consider myself pro-life, but as far as I know, it would be almost impossible for the baby to be 8" long in the first month. My little one is around 14" and she's 27 weeks. I think she was 8" around 19 weeks or so. I haven't read the book (I too, cannot get it to open) but if it does make that claim, I'm quite surprised. God love you, Erin.

Erin, even at 5 weeks you could have known the sex. And at 5 weeks, your baby would have looked very similar to my miscarried baby, who died at 6 weeks.

Bethany, I am sorry that you lost a potential baby. It probably makes the fact that I aborted feel very personal to you. Are you still trying to concieve?

Bobby- I think you've missed a bit. I'm talking about the poem, not the book.

For something completely off the topic:

Taking two Christian Morality classes next semester, and I'm actually pretty excited about my schedule.

Check out my blog for more info..

PIP,

It's too bad you don't have any pro-life democrats (for pres.) to vote for...there seems to be no room for pro-lifers in the democrat party...

"Bobby- I think you've missed a bit. I'm talking about the poem, not the book."

Ah, yeah, I sure did. Either way, I wouldn't defend the statement that a fetus is 8" in 4 weeks.

Bethany, I am sorry that you lost a potential baby. It probably makes the fact that I aborted feel very personal to you. Are you still trying to concieve?

I appreciate your condolences, Erin, I really do. But you are wrong about the way you worded it.
I have been losing potential babies since I was 12 and I started my period. Even more potential babies since I got married and started having sex.
I have never mourned a potential baby, and I probably never will.
This is the problem with what you and other pro-choice advocates do. You dehumanize babies in the womb, and therefore increase the sorrow of millions of women who have suffered from miscarriages, and who want their babies acknowledged by the world. You, along with the rest of the pro-choice side of the world, have made it difficult for a woman to receive true understanding from others. Because a baby is so easily aborted, it makes it seem as though a baby in the womb has less worth, and that losing a baby at such a young age couldn't possibly be as much of a tragedy as losing a baby that is already born.
Your problem is that you are confusing a developmental stage with "personhood".
Would you ever tell a mother who just lost their toddler, "I'm so sorry that you lost your potential teenager.", or a mother who just lost her infant, "I'm so sorry that you lost what could have been a toddler one day."
You realize that toddler, infant, adult, teenager, all of those are developmental stages, yet you refuse to realize that this is precisely the same thing that is going on inside the womb.
Zygote, embryo, fetus, neonate/infant, toddler, adolescent/teenager, adult...these are all developmental stages, and each and every one of those names describes a stage that occurs in a human being. None of these stages is less important, or less worthy of life. A young baby is not less worthy of life than a toddler, just because his brain does not function at the same levels, and he/she does not have the same awareness levels. We respect that baby's right to grow and develop into a toddler, and we understand that baby or toddler, both are human beings. And it should be that way with any human development stage of a human being.

So, I said all of that to say, thank you for the condolences, but I lost a baby, not a potential to become a baby.

If you are convinced that I lost a potential baby, please tell me what must have been added to my baby before it would have become a baby?
Nothing is added to the baby from the moment of conception except oxygen, and nutrition. There is no other cell that merges into the embryo at a certain stage to turn it into a baby...it already is a baby. If you can prove to me that something from the outside must be added to the embryo in order to turn it into a human being, I'll believe you, but until that day comes (and it won't, because it's scientifically proven that nothing is added but oxygen and nutrition), I will continue to consider my baby, a baby.

And yes, I am ready for another baby. :)

Good luck with concieving then, Bethany! I hope you succeed.

Thank you, Erin.

This book is really silly fairy tail stuff. Think that I'll stick to sock puppets and Dr Suess for the toddlers. I cannot imagine how any intelligent adult would think such a little fantasy would magically erase rational thought and cause anyone to become anti choice.

Bethany, I miscarried at 14 weeks. The fetus had stop developing at 12 weeks. It looked like a blob of tissue. I can't imagine a 6 week embryo looking like anything more than a small blood clot. But then I have heard of people swearing that they have seen the face of Jesus on tortillas.

Sally, which of these does not resemble a baby?
http://sketchesbybethany.net/babyblessing3.jpg
http://www.preciousinfants.com/babyblessing111.jpg
http://www.preciousinfants.com/babyblessingtwo.jpg
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyf.jpg
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/babyblessing2%20%282%29.jpg
Those are my pictures of my baby.

I am sorry for your loss, by the way. What you probably saw was the placenta, and the blood clots. You may have missed your baby...many mothers do. Also, sadly, sometimes the baby will absorb into the mother's body. I know I wasn't able to find my last baby who miscarried last month. It doesn't always happen...i was fortunate with my first miscarriage, to be able to get pictures.

It doesn't matter what it looked like. It was still a human. I am 5 feet 10" tall. Is a woman who stands at 5'4" less of a human being than I? This is getting ridiculous.

"If you are convinced that I lost a potential baby, please tell me what must have been added to my baby before it would have become a baby? "

Erin, what has to be added? what do you think has to happen for it to be a baby?

Heather, weren't Cameron and Diana trying to convince us that the "blob of tissue" idea wasn't promoted by anyone anymore? lol They told me I made that up.... as if!

And as for your point, exactly!

I can't imagine a 6 week embryo looking like anything more than a small blood clot.

Sally, for your education:

A blood clot:
http://nhcs.k12.in.us/nhe/Grade4/2005.2006/Rupp/HEART/11BloodCLOT.jpg

An embryo:
http://sketchesbybethany.net/babyblessing3.jpg

I have a question. Since when does a blood clot have a heartbeat? Can anyone link me to someone who can find this info.?

Viability and consciousness. That's what makes a human a person. Only my opinion, and they are arbitrary, I realize that. But they don't exist until at least 5 months, scientifically.

Bethany- How old was your baby in those pictures? I'm so sorry for your loss. It breaks my heart. God love you, Bethany.

Diana and Cameron would use anything as a diversion tactic. "Right to body autonomy" sounds better than "murder."

Bobby, Blessing was 6 weeks old when s/he stopped developing. Thank you so much for the kind words.

Hi Erin. A problem with your definition is that we are not conscious we are asleep. Does being asleep take away our personhood? Also, I agree that most of the time, a baby isn't viable until around 5 months, but how does science say that consciousness doesn't exist until 5 months? How is consciousness defined scientifically? As far as I know, I think we have to resort to philosophy to talk about consciousness, so it seems to me that it is also a question of philosophy as well. God love you, Erin.

Abortionists, and the people employed in their murder mills, are trained to do one thing. THEY SELL ABORTIONS! My 2 girlfriends told me about their abortion experiences. They both claim to have no regrets. They don't know each other either. They both told me the same storey. One said that "it was like an assembly line." Another told me "We were like a heard of cattle.".....NICE!

Erin,

how about a person who is unconscience and never has a possibily of regaining conscienceness. Is he a person?

jasper, good ?.

I am sorry for your loss, by the way. What you probably saw was the placenta, and the blood clots. You may have missed your baby...many mothers do. Also, sadly, sometimes the baby will absorb into the mother's body. I know I wasn't able to find my last baby who miscarried last month. It doesn't always happen...i was fortunate with my first miscarriage, to be able to get pictures.

Thanks for your condolences, I guess. I miscarried at the age of 45. My children were 25 and 21 at the time. I was no impressionable young un. I passed blood clots the size of adult human livers for 22 hours and almost died before they went in and dislodged the fetus from my uterous. I was amazed at how that little blob looked nothing like the babies I gave birth to and how tiny it was compared to the blood clots I had been passing.

You take pictures of your miscarriages? I'm sorry but I find that a bit macbre.

Anon, how far along were you?

Erin, 11:54a: I gotta say I winced when you wrote, "Bethany, I am sorry that you lost a potential baby."

I can't decide whether you were attempting pseudo-compassion or sincere compassion with your foot in your mouth.

Either way, your ideology got in the way and you unintentionally, I'm sure, stabbed a grieving mother in the heart.

Word to the wise, before you attempt to console another mother who has miscarried... well, don't if you can't bring yourself to call what she a lost a baby.

Anon, She took pictures because she obviously TREASURED her baby!

Anonymous, why did it take medical professionals 22 hours to help you?

I have a question. Since when does a blood clot have a heartbeat?

What signifigance does a fetal heart have to you?

I'm in the medical field, so I am TELLING you that blood clots don't have heart beats. What the heck are you even talking about?

Anon, how far along were you?

Is my name not showing up? Hmmmm. I was 14 weeks pregnant. We knew that the fetus had stopped developing at the 12 weeks ultrasound. If it hadn't I would have been undergoing tests on the fetus. Being people in our 40's all manner of things were liable to go wrong with the pregnancy and the fetus.

You mean the baby. Only post abortive women call it a fetus.

I'm in the medical field, so I am TELLING you that blood clots don't have heart beats. What the heck are you even talking about?

Neither do miscarried embryos. What the heck is your point?

Sally, I'm saying that you cannot compare a blood clot to a baby. It's absurd.

You take pictures of your miscarriages? I'm sorry but I find that a bit macabre.

That's a little ironic, cause I consider abortion to be a bit- no, very much- macabre. But that's just me.

Taking pictures of a baby I had no intentions of killing is a way of finding closure. Also, a way to help others who have had miscarriages to find their own closure. And I think the majority of women who have miscarried would disagree with your analysis, based on the nearly hundred emails I've gotten over time about my pictures. Not a single one was negative.
Most wish they had had a chance to do the same.
And I wish they could have too...it probably would have helped a lot.

Sally,

do work at an abortion mill?

At one point that miscarried baby did have a heart beat. This is what made it a human being.

Anonymous, why did it take medical professionals 22 hours to help you?

Beats me. It was a Friday night and I gather the OB/Gyn on call was unreachable. It was 6 the next morning before the procedure was performed.

jasper, she's probably had an abortion.

You take pictures of your miscarriages? I'm sorry but I find that a bit macabre.

That's a little ironic, cause I consider abortion to be a bit- no, very much- macabre. But that's just me.

Taking pictures of a baby I had no intentions of killing is a way of finding closure. Also, a way to help others who have had miscarriages to find their own closure. And I think the majority of women who have miscarried would disagree with your analysis, based on the nearly hundred emails I've gotten over time about my pictures. Not a single one was negative.
Most wish they had had a chance to do the same.
And I wish they could have too...it probably would have helped a lot.

Hmmmm. To each their own. The ER doctor almost puked when she slipped on the blood pouring out of me and onto the floor during my miscarriage. I can't imagine taking pictures of the event let alone the bloody mess.

Heather, I was thinking the same thing.

The ER doctor almost puked when she slipped on the blood pouring out of me and onto the floor during my miscarriage. I can't imagine taking pictures of the event let alone the bloody mess.

Wow, what kind of an ER doctor hasn't seen blood before? Your story sounds very fishy. I only had a little more blood than my period when I had my miscarriage, and a placenta came with the baby.
Would you think that a mother who's toddler died in a car crash was morbid or wrong to take pictures as a reminder of her child before she buried him or her?

And did you even look at my pictures? Where is the bloody mess you're speaking of?

Anyone who can't attach the word BABY to a pregnant woman has an issue with it some way, some how! Either they want to continue to try to deceive pro lifers d/t working in the abortion industry, or they have actually aborted, and they want to continue to deny it to themselves.

You mean the baby. Only post abortive women call it a fetus.

Honey, I'm 50 years old and quite sure about what I consider to be a baby and what my doctors professional terminology was during the time of my last pregnancy. I don't view pregnancy as simplistically as you apparently do. Are you always verbally abusive in discussions?

Sally, how is it that you didn't bleed to death? Did you receive a blood transfusion?? They just allowed you to lay there?? It just doesn't sound right to me.

Sally, LOL! Where is my verbal abuse?

Yes, please do share where you have been verbally abused, Sally.

My doctor's professional terminology was "Let's look at your ultrasound so we can see the baby" He works at one of the top hospitals in the country.

Sally and Erin,
I think you're missing the point. Don't think that the gestational "age" of the pregnancy determines its value and impact. If the woman is grieving, the baby ment more to her emotionally than that, and it's insulting to those women who grieve a loss child, whether through miscarriages/stillbirths or abortion when others try to minimize or otherwise invalidate the value of and their feelings towards their pregnancies.

While I personally believe every unborn child is of value, I do think every woman's pregnancy holds different value and importance to her and I think the terminology (medical or common) which works for one person, may not feel comfortable to another and reverse. I think what were discussing here is not the correct termonology to use, but respecting others experiences, feelings, and emotions.

*sigh* I have nothing but empathy for Bethany. She wants a child and the opportunity keeps being stolen from her. 'fetus' is not a term used only by post-abortive women. It's a term used by medical professionals and in scientific journals. I understand that Bethany lost something very important to her. The emotional connection to the fetus is what is important, not the fetus itself. For example, funerals aren't for the people who died. Funerals are for the people who are still alive that were close to that person. I support whatever helps Bethany grieve and move on. My personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant- I see that it pained Bethany greatly and I will respect that to no end. One of the twins miscarried, I didn't pass much blood either. You weren't ectopic, were you, Sally? Because that would explain a lot.

Erin, even if she had been ectopic, she should have been rushed into emergency surgery.

The ER doctor almost puked when she slipped on the blood pouring out of me and onto the floor during my miscarriage. I can't imagine taking pictures of the event let alone the bloody mess.

Wow, what kind of an ER doctor hasn't seen blood before? Your story sounds very fishy. I only had a little more blood than my period when I had my miscarriage, and a placenta came with the baby.
Would you think that a mother who's toddler died in a car crash was morbid or wrong to take pictures as a reminder of her child before she buried him or her?

The doctor was a piece of work. A couple of months after the miscarriage I was treated by the same ER doctor after a serious assault. She was quite dismissive and unprofessional over my treatment and evidence that I could have used to prosecute my assailant. I did report her to the proper authorities at the hospital.
I think it would be morbid to photograph the accident that may have killed a toddler. Digging through menstrual blood looking for a possibly miscarried embryo sounds a little strange to me.

You couldn't have been very pregnant if you had little more than a period when you miscarried. I have only had one miscarriage but my sister has had 6. My mother has had 3 as well as a brain dead hydrocephalic, a brain dead umbilical cord accident and the last was born in rotting pieces. Get the camera out!
Pregnancy is a serious medical condition and I find it dehumanizing to trivialize it into a fairy tail adventure including embryos capable of writing poetry. My great grandmother died attempting to give birth to her 14th child. The child was a child for slightly longer than she was a corpse. Too bad great grandpa didn't take pictures of the event. But grandpa never forgot his mother's death screams. I got the picture.
My experience sounds 'fishy'? You sound like an inexperienced child.

Well then give me the name of this hospital, so I never step foot in it.[kidding]

Sally, you don't have to make pregnancy seem so unappealing either. I loved being pregnant! Things can go wrong, but it's not a disease!

Sally, how is it that you didn't bleed to death? Did you receive a blood transfusion?? They just allowed you to lay there?? It just doesn't sound right to me.

I almost did bleed to death. That freaky alarm thing that you see on tv went off and people came running. I passed out and was suddenly standing in front of an Italian church with the cast of Tea With Mussilini. The Nazis let loose a cannon ball and it landing in my middle section. I came to throwing up. It was really weird. But they put an IV in me and something to slow down the bleeding. I honestly cannot remember if they gave me blood or not. I was pretty drugged up until just before the procedure. The doc said that she needed me alert. Having the fetus pulled away from the uterine wall was a bit painful. I take it she was attempting to avoid ruptering my uterous.

Wow, Sally, for one who claims others verbally abuse her, you sure can throw around the insults.

First of all:

I think it would be morbid to photograph the accident that may have killed a toddler. Digging through menstrual blood looking for a possibly miscarried embryo sounds a little strange to me.

It wasn't a "possibly" miscarried embryo. It was definitely a miscarriage of my fourth child. And the first thing that came out (with absolutely NO blood), was my baby. I have no idea how, but it had worked it's way out of the sac, I suppose, and the first thing that I saw, when I looked in the bucket, was the tiniest baby I have ever seen. The placenta came out about 1 hour later.

I didn't have to fish through anything...but even if I had, there is nothing wrong with that.

Secondly, I think it would be morbid to photograph the accident that may have killed a toddler. Digging through menstrual blood looking for a possibly miscarried embryo sounds a little strange to me.

Did I ask you about a woman photographing an accident scene? I don't think so. I asked you about a woman photographing her child. It almost seems as though you cannot separate the two?

You couldn't have been very pregnant if you had little more than a period when you miscarried.

I've already stated several times that I had been 6 weeks when the baby stopped developing, and I was 9 weeks when I miscarried.

I have only had one miscarriage but my sister has had 6. My mother has had 3 as well as a brain dead hydrocephalic, a brain dead umbilical cord accident and the last was born in rotting pieces. Get the camera out!

You are a kind, kind woman, and you speak with such grace.

Pregnancy is a serious medical condition and I find it dehumanizing to trivialize it into a fairy tail adventure including embryos capable of writing poetry.

What is dehumanizing is insulting a mother who is grieving her child, whether you recognize it as a loss or not. Writing poetry that is full of life and wonder is not in any way dehumanizing.

My great grandmother died attempting to give birth to her 14th child. The child was a child for slightly longer than she was a corpse. Too bad great grandpa didn't take pictures of the event. But grandpa never forgot his mother's death screams. I got the picture.

I am sorry about your grandmother dying during childbirth. Thankfully, we live in a time now where that is very rare. However, I wouldn't have been surprised if your grandfather had wanted to take pictures of her before burying her. That is a very common thing to do, to remember your loved one by. I suppose you have never grieved before, or you just grieve differently, hence the reason you feel no empathy in this situation.

My experience sounds 'fishy'? You sound like an inexperienced child.

I'm sure to you, I am. But your words don't reflect maturity... age isn't always an indication of such.

Sally, I'm saying that you cannot compare a blood clot to a baby. It's absurd.

I find it absurd to compare a 6 week embryo to a baby.

Sally,
Thats what we may have been questioning, the ER doctor's competence, and Bethany, some incomplete miscarriages may begin to hemorrhage (severe blood loss), which require immediate treatment,

Sally,
As I've already spoken of, her lost pregnancies were not life threatening to her and oviously ment more to her emotionally than it's physical appearance and capabilities and every individual has their own way to finding closure from grief. When there's little to remember someone or something by as in a pregnancy, keepsake photos of the miscarriage are Bethany's own way of remembering and finding closure (not that I see her telling others to do the same, but rather explaining why she did it). You don't have to agree, but at least show some respect for her feelings.

Sally,

do work at an abortion mill?

I work in a real estate office Jasper. What is an abortion mill and what is processed there? Grandpa was a lumber jack and I'm familar with lumber mills.

It sounds more like placenta previa.

Sally, LOL! Where is my verbal abuse?

If that was not you intention by calling me post abortive than I appologise. I do have PTSD from my assault and tend to be a bit hypersensitive to potential abuse. I flinch easily and sometimes see abusive intentions when none exist. Do accept my appology if that was not your intention.

What is an abortion mill and what is processed there? Grandpa was a lumber jack and I'm familar with lumber mills.

She's referring to how many abortion clinics, which only provide abortions on particular days, see many patients at once and often process andd hurry them through like cattle. This is often the case with publicly-funded abortion clinics, such as PP.

A 6 week embryo is a baby.

Erin said:
"Viability and consciousness. That's what makes a human a person. Only my opinion, and they are arbitrary, I realize that. But they don't exist until at least 5 months, scientifically."

I respect your right to have an opinion, but since you acknowledge that it is arbitrary and based on nothing more than what you believe, what makes your opinion important enough to risk killing children if you are wrong?

Scientifically we can determine with absolute certainty whether something is a human being. Personhood cannot be scientifically determined or measured, and is currently defined differently in a hundred arbitrary opinions -- any or all of which could be wrong. When so much is at risk -- the lives of children and the health and well-being of women -- isn't it incredibly foolish to decide the issue on something as undefinable as personhood? Isn't it irresponsible not to rely on the only scientific and certain measure we have?

Why do pro-choicers eschew science and rely only on faith when the lives of women and children hang in the balance?

Sally, have you ever had an abortion? Your ID is anonymous. If not, then why are you PC?

Bethany,
"Most wish they had had a chance to do the same.
And I wish they could have too...it probably would have helped a lot"

You are absolutely correct, I did and am glad everyday for it.

Sally, sorry. There are times I am posting and I cannot get to your messages in time. Speaking of sensitive topics, you don't owe me an apology. You owe Bethany one.

"I work in a real estate office Jasper. What is an abortion mill and what is processed there?"

They slaughter babies by ripping their limbs apart and crushing their skulls. Sometimes they inject them with poison and they burn to death. So, they're process is turning live babies into dead babies, they're in the death and killing business..and it's legal too and they make good money. Satan is the CEO.

Bethany,
Have you got the "remember me" button selected when you type in your info?

I used to have to sign in every time I posted...now it just lets me post and I've yet to see the typekey prompt...Except it keeps posting me as anon!

Try deleting your cookies and cache and see what happens. If you have firefox, here's how you do it:
Up at the top, you'll see tools, click that, then click "Clear private data"...then select which things you would like deleted.
Let me know if this does anything!

You are absolutely correct, I did and am glad everyday for it.

Rosie, I am so glad to hear that. I know it must have really helped you, as it did for me. I found so much closure in those pictures.

Bethany,

I guess Sally thinks you gave "birth" to an old shoe?

I guess she also thinks that she deserves respect for her traumatic experience, but doesn't feel it necessary to extend the same courtesy to others. Typical.

Love and Death and murder and suicide are all pretty serious topics, but I don't hear anyone complaining to Shakespeare for writing Romeo and Juliet, a pretty little fairy tale about pain and suffering...

I'm pretty sure they process lumber in a lumber mill, much the same as they "process" human beings in an abortion mill...

Have I mentioned that my son has a slight stretching and some damage to the fibrils of his ligament? Well, that's what the doctor called it.
We just say he sprained his ankle, and we're doing all we can to help him get through it...cuz a rose is a rose is a rose. And a fetus, by definition, is a baby. The terms are interchangeable. Reality, unfortunately is not. It is what it is and claiming that a fetus is not a baby, does not make it so. It might make you feel better and ease your conscience, but it doesn't change the facts.

MK

Bethany,
It gives me a choice of Saved Passwords, Authenticated sessions and Cache...what do I hit. If I choose Passwords, will all my passwords everywhere delete? Oh Heavens to Betsy, how will I remember them all?

I have pictures of all six of my children. I wonder how they would feel if had decided never to take pictures of one of them.

"Where are my pictures?"
"Oh Susie, you were smaller than everyone else so we didn't take any of you...this way if you die no one will have to remember you and feel bad..."

testing

Anonymous is still with us...I wish he'd leave the building!

I was going to bring up the funeral topic. Some people video tape funerals or take pictures. Why would/should I care? It's the last time they will ever see their loved one. HUH! Why do we have wakes at all? Because it's a way of helping people mourn! It's a way to say goodbye. Do you think I would be a helpful gal if I strolled over to the casket and told the deceased person's family, "Ah, he was 88." "Why did you even bother with a wake?"

Sally, have you ever had an abortion? Your ID is anonymous. If not, then why are you PC?

Yes Heather I have. Not because I didn't want to be pregnant but too avoid an inevitable miscariage. I was being treated for cancer at the time. I would have liked to have had more children. It just didn't work out that way for me.

Sally, you don't have to make pregnancy seem so unappealing either. I loved being pregnant! Things can go wrong, but it's not a disease!

Did I say that it was? I certainly didn't enjoy being pregnant but I wanted children. According to my children I have been exceptionally good at parenting. Pregnancy can be dangerous to a woman's health and I don't feel that it should be taken lightly.

Sally, sorry. There are times I am posting and I cannot get to your messages in time. Speaking of sensitive topics, you don't owe me an apology. You owe Bethany one.

My sincere apology Bethany if you find my opinions as offensive as I find those of the PL.

*sigh* I have nothing but empathy for Bethany. She wants a child and the opportunity keeps being stolen from her. 'fetus' is not a term used only by post-abortive women. It's a term used by medical professionals and in scientific journals. I understand that Bethany lost something very important to her. The emotional connection to the fetus is what is important, not the fetus itself. For example, funerals aren't for the people who died. Funerals are for the people who are still alive that were close to that person. I support whatever helps Bethany grieve and move on. My personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant- I see that it pained Bethany greatly and I will respect that to no end. One of the twins miscarried, I didn't pass much blood either. You weren't ectopic, were you, Sally? Because that would explain a lot.

No I wasn't. I didn't feel any pain. Just a little cramping.

Wow, Sally, for one who claims others verbally abuse her, you sure can throw around the insults.

First of all:

I think it would be morbid to photograph the accident that may have killed a toddler. Digging through menstrual blood looking for a possibly miscarried embryo sounds a little strange to me.

It wasn't a "possibly" miscarried embryo. It was definitely a miscarriage of my fourth child. And the first thing that came out (with absolutely NO blood), was my baby. I have no idea how, but it had worked it's way out of the sac, I suppose, and the first thing that I saw, when I looked in the bucket, was the tiniest baby I have ever seen. The placenta came out about 1 hour later.
.................................................
Wow! My eyesight isn't all that great. I'm not sure that I would have spotted a half inch long embryo or thought that it looked like a baby even under a microscope:
http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498210.html

I didn't have to fish through anything...but even if I had, there is nothing wrong with that.
.................................................Nothing right or wrong about it. Just seems like an odd thing to do to me.

Secondly, I think it would be morbid to photograph the accident that may have killed a toddler. Digging through menstrual blood looking for a possibly miscarried embryo sounds a little strange to me.

Did I ask you about a woman photographing an accident scene? I don't think so. I asked you about a woman photographing her child. It almost seems as though you cannot separate the two?
.................................................You compared a miscarriage to an accident and an embryo to a toddler. Keeping the scenarios analogous one would either have to photograph the toddler at the scene of the accident or one would have to send the embryo to a mortuary,have it dressed in it's Sunday best, have it's hair and make up done and then photograph it.

You couldn't have been very pregnant if you had little more than a period when you miscarried.

I've already stated several times that I had been 6 weeks when the baby stopped developing, and I was 9 weeks when I miscarried.
.................................................
It had been deteriorating for 3 weeks and looked like a baby to you? I'm sorry for your loss. I just cannot understand how you actually saw what you say that you did. Forgive my scepticism. It certainly isn't meant to diminish your undoubted dissapointment.

I have only had one miscarriage but my sister has had 6. My mother has had 3 as well as a brain dead hydrocephalic, a brain dead umbilical cord accident and the last was born in rotting pieces. Get the camera out!

You are a kind, kind woman, and you speak with such grace.
.................................................
Why thank you. I also have a sarcastic sense of humor.

Pregnancy is a serious medical condition and I find it dehumanizing to trivialize it into a fairy tail adventure including embryos capable of writing poetry.

What is dehumanizing is insulting a mother who is grieving her child, whether you recognize it as a loss or not. Writing poetry that is full of life and wonder is not in any way dehumanizing.
.................................................My goodness! You find insult faster than I do. Pretending that a fetus can write poetry is insulting to those actually capable IMO.

My great grandmother died attempting to give birth to her 14th child. The child was a child for slightly longer than she was a corpse. Too bad great grandpa didn't take pictures of the event. But grandpa never forgot his mother's death screams. I got the picture.

I am sorry about your grandmother dying during childbirth. Thankfully, we live in a time now where that is very rare. However, I wouldn't have been surprised if your grandfather had wanted to take pictures of her before burying her. That is a very common thing to do, to remember your loved one by. I suppose you have never grieved before, or you just grieve differently, hence the reason you feel no empathy in this situation.
.................................................
I witnessed two strangers burn to death. My father die one Christmas morning. My best friend was murdered 12 years ago. I have grieved for people loved and missed. Knowing that not every pregnancy produces a child, I have not grieved over lost embryos or fetii. I've been dissapointed but not grieviously so.

My experience sounds 'fishy'? You sound like an inexperienced child.

I'm sure to you, I am. But your words don't reflect maturity... age isn't always an indication of such.

Sally,
You didn't grieve for your lost child, but you grieved for two strangers? Now that I find odd.

You have a hard time believing that what Bethany claims she saw is actually what she saw? So where did the photographs come from? You think she ordered a rubber 6 week old fetus model, took pictures of it and posted them here claiming that they were real. You'll have to forgive my skeptism...

You find babies writing poetry insulting, but don't find killing them insulting? You have a very strange sense of what insulting is...

Haven't you ever watched a Disney movie? Did you find Dumbo insulting? He was, after all, an elephant that could fly. Or how about Mary Poppins? That woman had an umbrella that could talk! The nerve! The audacity! What an insult to my intelligence...sheesh, weren't you ever a kid?

*sigh* that was me again...MK...this is getting silly! Where the heck are the moderators!

Oh, I am a moderator...

Never mind...

testing

HAH! I knew I could moderate! Take that!

It had been deteriorating for 3 weeks and looked like a baby to you? I'm sorry for your loss. I just cannot understand how you actually saw what you say that you did. Forgive my scepticism. It certainly isn't meant to diminish your undoubted dissapointment.

Sally, are you just completely ignoring the pictures I posted? You keep saying you don't believe that I saw anything, but I have shown you exactly what I saw. What more can I do to convince you? I have shown you a picture of the baby in my hand. If this doesn't convince you, obviously, you're just not even really here to debate, just insult.
Acknowledge that you have seen the pictures. Have you even looked?

Wow! My eyesight isn't all that great. I'm not sure that I would have spotted a half inch long embryo or thought that it looked like a baby even under a microscope:
http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498210.html

That looks nothing like the baby pictures I showed you, and that's obvious. My baby was further along than that.
Try again. There is no way that if you had seen your baby, that you would have mistaken your baby for a blood clot. Unless you were just blind.
There is truly no comparison...I know, I was THERE!

Nothing right or wrong about it. Just seems like an odd thing to do to me.

If you don't see anything wrong with it, what were you so offended about when you first posted about it, implying that I was morbid, strange, and disgusting to do so?

You compared a miscarriage to an accident and an embryo to a toddler. Keeping the scenarios analogous one would either have to photograph the toddler at the scene of the accident or one would have to send the embryo to a mortuary,have it dressed in it's Sunday best, have it's hair and make up done and then photograph it.

If you would actually LOOK at the pictures, you would see that my baby was clean, beautiful, and very ready for a photograph, as best as possible. I can't really do up it's hair, can I? Or dress it in Sunday clothing?

My goodness! You find insult faster than I do. Pretending that a fetus can write poetry is insulting to those actually capable IMO.

Wow...if that's insulting, I guess I should never let my children read ANY fictional books about princesses and princes, little men who spin straw into gold, or elves who make shoes for the shoemaker. Because those are just INSULTING to people who can't do those things!

I witnessed two strangers burn to death. My father die one Christmas morning. My best friend was murdered 12 years ago. I have grieved for people loved and missed. Knowing that not every pregnancy produces a child, I have not grieved over lost embryos or fetii. I've been disappointed but not grieviously so.

Well, knowing that people don't always live through a fire, I suppose you should have not been grievously disappointed when those men burned in the fire either. After all, not every person lives to be 100.

REAL pictures from the web, not drawings:

Week 6:
Picture
http://www.pregnancy.org/images/pregnancy/pregnancycalendar/06week125.gif
reference
http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php#week6

Week 6:
picture
http://www.hss.state.ak.us/dph/wcfh/informedconsent/images/6-weeks.jpg
reference
http://www.hss.state.ak.us/dph/wcfh/informedconsent/1sttri_images.htm

Week 6:
http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch03/plate2.jpg
http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch03/fetus.mhtml

Marykay, I am so glad you got it to work finally!

Bethany,
I love the pic of the sperm entering the egg...I always hear trumpets in the backgroud!!!!

It's pretty cool, isn't it?

Have you ever seen Lennart Nilsson's book, "LIFE"? It has some of the most incredible photographs I have ever seen in it.
I always look at it when I go to the bookstore.

Bethany, wow sorry you had to deal with all that last night. You kept yourself far more graceful than I would have in your situation. *hugs*

Sally, you have now told us that you have had an abortion in order to save your life. What are you so defensive about?

Lauren, I agree. Bethany, you were outstanding! Sally, You could have been more tactful, and explained that you had to abort d/t health problems.

Thank you, Lauren, and Heather.

By the way, I ordered the book today!

Sally, I have been thinking about you for the last couple of days, and even though at first I was angry and offended by your words, I am now thinking a little differently.

Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but why are you afraid to look at the pictures?

Is your seemingly bitter demeanor, and your denial of my miscarriage, my baby, and my grief, a way of protecting yourself from the pain of your own miscarriage/abortion?

Please, if this is the case...and I have a feeling it could be....please allow yourself the right to grieve. Please do not bottle it up in such a way... it will continue to come out in anger, with you lashing out inappropriately at people who did nothing to hurt you. Also, you will inevitably feel the pain later on...I think it would be better to get the grieving out now, rather than later. The pain only gets more intense the longer it is held back.

We're here for you if you ever need a shoulder to cry on.

I understand the pain that you might be experiencing, and the fear of allowing yourself to acknowledge it. Perhaps it is guilt that keeps you from acknowledging it. Read this book, "I'll Hold you in Heaven", by Jack Hayford. His book is extremely comforting, whether you have had a miscarriage, abortion, or any other kind of loss. His words are not judgmental, they are kind and caring, and you will feel comforted by his words.

Here are other links that may be helpful in your situation:

http://www.ivf.com/misc.html

http://www.compassionatefriends.org/Brochures/stillbirth.htm

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyloss/mcsurvivingemotionally.html

http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18897/2224/3

Bethany, I was thinking the same thing. I wouldn't want to run someone off who was hurting. After all, didn't Dr. Reardon say that it can take women up to 10 to 15 years before the pain of abortion is recognized? Sally, please come on back.

Bethany, those were some terrific articles. This is why it's also so important to recognize abortion as a loss.

Sally,
Thats what we may have been questioning, the ER doctor's competence, and Bethany, some incomplete miscarriages may begin to hemorrhage (severe blood loss), which require immediate treatment,

Sally,
As I've already spoken of, her lost pregnancies were not life threatening to her and oviously ment more to her emotionally than it's physical appearance and capabilities and every individual has their own way to finding closure from grief. When there's little to remember someone or something by as in a pregnancy, keepsake photos of the miscarriage are Bethany's own way of remembering and finding closure (not that I see her telling others to do the same, but rather explaining why she did it). You don't have to agree, but at least show some respect for her feelings.

I'm not a scrapbooker. I don't need little memories of my life to understand my life. I have lived. I've never talked down to my children. Don't talk down to me.
Where is the respect for those with more more knowledge and experience being exhibited here? Where is the respect for your elders? Are your elders only men connected to a non profit/Chritian sect?

I work in a real estate office Jasper. What is an abortion mill and what is processed there?"

They slaughter babies by ripping their limbs apart and crushing their skulls. Sometimes they inject them with poison and they burn to death. So, they're process is turning live babies into dead babies, they're in the death and killing business..and it's legal too and they make good money. Satan is the CEO

Uh huh Jasper. Only fetii ready to be born healthy are aborted. I bet you have a vast library off snuff films. It makes you an expert on the subject of everything.

t had been deteriorating for 3 weeks and looked like a baby to you? I'm sorry for your loss. I just cannot understand how you actually saw what you say that you did. Forgive my scepticism. It certainly isn't meant to diminish your undoubted dissapointment.

Sally, are you just completely ignoring the pictures I posted? You keep saying you don't believe that I saw anything, but I have shown you exactly what I saw. What more can I do to convince you? I have shown you a picture of the baby in my hand. If this doesn't convince you, obviously, you're just not even really here to debate, just insult.
Acknowledge that you have seen the pictures. Have you even looked?

Well of course not. Have you given links to your actual miscarriages or just how you would like to give importance to what you might have given birth to? And perhaps some spam with your links? Please do not insult me with yout fairy tail stuff. Links lead to 'puter melt downs. If you were actually convinced of what you say that you saw, a link would not be necesarry.

Bethany,

I guess Sally thinks you gave "birth" to an old shoe?

I guess she also thinks that she deserves respect for her traumatic experience, but doesn't feel it necessary to extend the same courtesy to others. Typical.

Okey dokey, The traumatized must always protect those lacking in trauma. IE their abusers. Typical of the need of abusers to project themselves upon thier prey. Their victims deserve to be victims. In the abuser's head of course.

Love and Death and murder and suicide are all pretty serious topics, but I don't hear anyone complaining to Shakespeare for writing Romeo and Juliet, a pretty little fairy tale about pain and suffering...

Honey, comparing Shakespear to fairy tails before Disney is pretty redundant.

I'm pretty sure they process lumber in a lumber mill, much the same as they "process" human beings in an abortion mill...

Into what sillyhead?

Have I mentioned that my son has a slight stretching and some damage to the fibrils of his ligament? Well, that's what the doctor called it.
We just say he sprained his ankle, and we're doing all we can to help him get through it...cuz a rose is a rose is a rose. And a fetus, by definition, is a baby. The terms are interchangeable. Reality, unfortunately is not. It is what it is and claiming that a fetus is not a baby, does not make it so. It might make you feel better and ease your conscience, but it doesn't change the facts.

MK

Honey. claiming that a fetus is a baby doesn't make it so. No matter how much you think that god cares about those he abiorts over those that women chose to.

Sally,
You didn't grieve for your lost child, but you grieved for two strangers? Now that I find odd.

You have a hard time believing that what Bethany claims she saw is actually what she saw? So where did the photographs come from? You think she ordered a rubber 6 week old fetus model, took pictures of it and posted them here claiming that they were real. You'll have to forgive my skeptism...

You find babies writing poetry insulting, but don't find killing them insulting? You have a very strange sense of what insulting is...

Haven't you ever watched a Disney movie? Did you find Dumbo insulting? He was, after all, an elephant that could fly. Or how about Mary Poppins? That woman had an umbrella that could talk! The nerve! The audacity! What an insult to my intelligence...sheesh, weren't you ever a kid?

No never! My father had an argasm and I came to be. @@ I actually had one of the original Mary Poppins books. She broke off her fingers and turned them into lady finger biscuits to feed to her charges. Won't see that on Disney.

Sally, you have now told us that you have had an abortion in order to save your life. What are you so defensive about?

Honey, I'm glad that you understand that an abortion is safer than a miscarriage. IE. save my life. Actually I aborted to avoid the further complications that pregnancy brings. Especaily what failed gestation brings. I aborted the same thing that every woman does at 8 weeks. The reasons why are redundant. I aborted for convenience. Noting less and nothing more.
Why would you think that an intelligent woman of experience need be defensive? Is the meaning of your posts an attack upon myself? If so, you need to sharpen your aim.

Lauren, I agree. Bethany, you were outstanding! Sally, You could have been more tactful, and explained that you had to abort d/t health problems.

Why Heather? Why should I be expected to explain my choices? Why should your elders have to tip toe around you young un's feelings when you are so obviously disrespectful of ours?

Sally, I made one of Bethany's pictures into a thumbnail so you don't have to click on it to see the photo. (I hope you don't mind, Bethany)

If that doesn't work here's a link to the image hosted Image shack. You will be assured that it will not harm your computer, as it is a trusted source.

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bethanyfxe5.jpg

Well of course not.

That's what I thought.

Have you given links to your actual miscarriages or just how you would like to give importance to what you might have given birth to?

You already know what I put up links to. I have made it perfectly clear. The links contain pictures, hosted on my own website, pictures of my little baby (who is not covered with blood or anything), and it is perfectly safe to open with your computer. Click on one, and you will find a new window with a small jpeg (picture) of my own little baby. No gore, guaranteed.

And perhaps some spam with your links?

Nope, I can guarantee not.

Please do not insult me with yout fairy tail stuff.

Please explain to me what is fairy tail about a photograph?

Links lead to 'puter melt downs.

LOL A link is what got you here. Is your computer still working?

If you were actually convinced of what you say that you saw, a link would not be necesarry.

No, I do not need the link, you do. Try to keep up.

Why Heather? Why should I be expected to explain my choices? Why should your elders have to tip toe around you young un's feelings when you are so obviously disrespectful of ours?

Perhaps a better question could be directed to you: Why come here simply insulting others and expecting others to completely understand from your point of view without expressing it clearly first?

Honey, I'm glad that you understand that an abortion is safer than a miscarriage. IE. save my life. Actually I aborted to avoid the further complications that pregnancy brings. Especaily what failed gestation brings. I aborted the same thing that every woman does at 8 weeks. The reasons why are redundant. I aborted for convenience. Noting less and nothing more.

If it was so safe for you, then why were you nearly bleeding to death?

Honey. claiming that a fetus is a baby doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry, Sally, but Science and Biology are on our side on this one.

I aborted for convenience. Noting less and nothing more.

Of course...so why do you believe Heather being judgmental by calling you post abortive, since you actually are, and you claim to have no problems with it?

Sally, check out Lauren's 2:40 post. (Lauren, I just found it and published it for you, since it didn't publish automatically due to the link).
I don't know why but with this blog you can't actually embed hosted pictures into the comments. If you could I would have done it, but have tried before and failed. I wonder if there's any way we could remedy that?

Thanks Bethany. I don't know why thumbnails don't show up. That would make things so much easier!

Sure would!

It must be nice for Sally to live in a world where she can simply not look at something and pretend it doesn't exist...

I fixed the comment problem! Now your thumbnail is showing up, Lauren...and here are pictures Sally can't ignore. Sally, meet my baby who stopped developing at 6 weeks gestation:

Yay bethany! You're a computer guru! I'm so thankful you were able to see Blessings.

*big smiley face*

Aww,look at those little fingers!!cute!

Rosie, thank you ((hugs))

back at ya!

Sally,
How dare you accuse me of talking down to you when you treat others here, especially Bethany with blatant disrespect! And your last statement, BTW, is a straw man and ad-hominem. I respect and hold into high esteem those who show a level of respect for others.

It's clear that you strongly disagree with Bethany's idea to take photos of her losses and perhaps her stance on the status of the fetus. She's just sharing her own experience of what has helped her to find closure to their own personal losses and her own personal feelings on her losses. However, I certainly don't see Bethany or anyone else here dictating that you also have to photograph your losses, so that's a mute point. To each there own, as you one said, right?

*clapping for Rachael!!*

Sally, I made one of Bethany's pictures into a thumbnail so you don't have to click on it to see the photo. (I hope you don't mind, Bethany)

If that doesn't work here's a link to the image hosted Image shack. You will be assured that it will not harm your computer, as it is a trusted source.

Very much reminds me of my father's toe nails when I first found out that he would die. They later completely decomposed and fell away. Are you trying to say that dissapointment over a failed gestation is any way an emotional experience to the death of a well known and well loved person?

Why Heather? Why should I be expected to explain my choices? Why should your elders have to tip toe around you young un's feelings when you are so obviously disrespectful of ours?

Perhaps a better question could be directed to you: Why come here simply insulting others and expecting others to completely understand from your point of view without expressing it clearly first?

Explian how you feel that you have been insulted by me. You really can't. You insult my intelligence, life experience and whine about it.

Honey, I'm glad that you understand that an abortion is safer than a miscarriage. IE. save my life. Actually I aborted to avoid the further complications that pregnancy brings. Especaily what failed gestation brings. I aborted the same thing that every woman does at 8 weeks. The reasons why are redundant. I aborted for convenience. Noting less and nothing more.

If it was so safe for you, then why were you nearly bleeding to death?

You get easily lost don't you child. I nearly died from a spontaneous abortion while the intentional abortion did no trouble to me. What do you not understand? High school drop out are you?

Honey. claiming that a fetus is a baby doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry, Sally, but Science and Biology are on our side on this one.

Sorry chica, but only a woman can produce a baby.

Very much reminds me of my father's toe nails when I first found out that he would die.

Wow, your father's toenails must have been an amazing anomaly. You should have taken pictures.

Are you trying to say that disappointment over a failed gestation is any way an emotional experience to the death of a well known and well loved person?

Yes, I am, because not only is it similar to that kind of grief, it is actually that type of grief.
I welcomed the idea of a fourth child for 6 long months until I finally saw a pregnancy test with a positive. I was rejoicing, and I wanted the whole world to know that I was pregnant with my fourth child. I told everyone I knew...every night, I talked with my husband about the baby, and how my belly was going to change, and how come September (next month will be the due date that would have been) how excited the children would be to meet their new sister or brother. We pondered on names, we spent time preparing things for the baby to move in. For nearly 10 weeks, I was in love with my baby. And so yes, to answer your question, the loss that I felt was a real loss of a real baby.

Explian how you feel that you have been insulted by me. You really can't. You insult my intelligence, life experience and whine about it.

I don't think you are for real. lol
Point out one thing that has been said to you that was insulting. One post. I think that people have been really unbelievably nice to you, despite the circumstances (your rude and cold comments) I think what the problem is, is that you have been on the defensive for so long, you don't know how to react when people are nice to you anymore.

Or perhaps you've always been rude, it could just be your nature. But I prefer to think something in your life turned you this way, and that there is a Suanne deep down who really wants to come out and genuinely express herself, but she is afraid of being hurt. If I can view you this way, I am not offended by your words. I only empathize with you.

You get easily lost don't you child. I nearly died from a spontaneous abortion while the intentional abortion did no trouble to me. What do you not understand? High school drop out are you?

Sally, you contradict yourself a lot. You said:

****"Not because I didn't want to be pregnant but too avoid an inevitable miscarriage. I was being treated for cancer at the time. I would have liked to have had more children. It just didn't work out that way for me."****

and then you said:

****" I aborted for convenience. Nothing less and nothing more. "*****

Either you aborted for convenience, nothing less and nothing more, or you aborted to save your life. You don't really make it that clear what the true reason was.

Sorry chica, but only a woman can produce a baby.

I think I would know, I have three living children.

Rachael, thank you.

Bethany, excellent post! I know a lot of women who have lied and told me that they had suffered a miscarriage, when it was actually an abortion. Why do they feel the need to fib? You guys all seem so proud of the procedure itself. Sally, if you hang around with a lot of pro deathers, this could be the reason for your constant negativity. Maybe you should find some new friends.

Heather,
Those wpomen piss me off to no end, because they put themselves into the same category that I and Bethany are in. They say they lost a child when they know full well that they didn't lose a child, they threw theirs away like a bag of garbage.*screams*

Rosie, I get mad too.

Ladies, I understand. I knew this lady, and she told me that she was going to have a tubal ligation. I asked her if she had ever wanted children. She said "Nope. I can't stand kids." She then went on to tell me about her past pregnancy history. She claimed that she'd had 2 miscarriages and 2 elective abortions in order to save her life. She never did mention what life threatening condition she suffered from. She's in her mid 40's, so the doctors didn't have any qualms about performing the surgery. I saw her after the surgery, and she must have forgotten what she'd told me a year prior to it. She began discussing past pregnancies once again, but this time she confessed to 4 elective abortions. THIS time she told me that they were all from rapes! If you are going to lie, at least keep your lying straight.

"If you are going to lie, at least keep your lying straight."

Or make them believable.

Lauren,
Hi, sorry, I guess that is just one of my "buttons" that get pushed and sets me off. Though i'm glad i'm not the only one that gets mad about that. It's feels kind of like a violation of some sort that you just can't explain.

Lauren, Rosie, and Bethany, I am very sorry for your losses!

Rosie, I completely understand, and I feel the same way. People like Sally seem to have lost their heart and soul. No matter what happened in her life, it really doesn't give her an excuse to treat others like crap. If she wants people to respect her as an "elder", she should start acting like one.

Heather, thank you :)

Thanks Heather.

Bethany,

I guess Sally thinks you gave "birth" to an old shoe?

I guess she also thinks that she deserves respect for her traumatic experience, but doesn't feel it necessary to extend the same courtesy to others. Typical.

Love and Death and murder and suicide are all pretty serious topics, but I don't hear anyone complaining to Shakespeare for writing Romeo and Juliet, a pretty little fairy tale about pain and suffering...

I'm pretty sure they process lumber in a lumber mill, much the same as they "process" human beings in an abortion mill...

Into what?

Have I mentioned that my son has a slight stretching and some damage to the fibrils of his ligament? Well, that's what the doctor called it.
We just say he sprained his ankle, and we're doing all we can to help him get through it...cuz a rose is a rose is a rose. And a fetus, by definition, is a baby. The terms are interchangeable. Reality, unfortunately is not. It is what it is and claiming that a fetus is not a baby, does not make it so. It might make you feel better and ease your conscience, but it doesn't change the facts.

MK

Have I mentioned that I have spinal stenosis, one of my cousins and my nephew's wife have advanced MS?

Very much reminds me of my father's toe nails when I first found out that he would die.

Wow, your father's toenails must have been an amazing anomaly. You should have taken pictures.

Are you trying to say that disappointment over a failed gestation is any way an emotional experience to the death of a well known and well loved person?

Yes, I am, because not only is it similar to that kind of grief, it is actually that type of grief.
I welcomed the idea of a fourth child for 6 long months until I finally saw a pregnancy test with a positive. I was rejoicing, and I wanted the whole world to know that I was pregnant with my fourth child. I told everyone I knew...every night, I talked with my husband about the baby, and how my belly was going to change, and how come September (next month will be the due date that would have been) how excited the children would be to meet their new sister or brother. We pondered on names, we spent time preparing things for the baby to move in. For nearly 10 weeks, I was in love with my baby. And so yes, to answer your question, the loss that I felt was a real loss of a real baby.

Explian how you feel that you have been insulted by me. You really can't. You insult my intelligence, life experience and whine about it.

I don't think you are for real. lol
Point out one thing that has been said to you that was insulting. One post. I think that people have been really unbelievably nice to you, despite the circumstances (your rude and cold comments) I think what the problem is, is that you have been on the defensive for so long, you don't know how to react when people are nice to you anymore.

Or perhaps you've always been rude, it could just be your nature. But I prefer to think something in your life turned you this way, and that there is a Suanne deep down who really wants to come out and genuinely express herself, but she is afraid of being hurt. If I can view you this way, I am not offended by your words. I only empathize with you.

You get easily lost don't you child. I nearly died from a spontaneous abortion while the intentional abortion did no trouble to me. What do you not understand? High school drop out are you?

Sally, you contradict yourself a lot. You said:

****"Not because I didn't want to be pregnant but too avoid an inevitable miscarriage. I was being treated for cancer at the time. I would have liked to have had more children. It just didn't work out that way for me."****

and then you said:

****" I aborted for convenience. Nothing less and nothing more. "*****

Either you aborted for convenience, nothing less and nothing more, or you aborted to save your life. You don't really make it that clear what the true reason was.

Sorry chica, but only a woman can produce a baby.

I think I would know, I have three living children.

Silly girl. I aborted for the conveniece of not miscarrying. Having 3 children doesn't exactly make you a OB/GYN or an expert on how they got there let alone an expert on child rearing. Lord knows that you know nothing about nutrition.

Heather, I don't understand what MS has to do with devaluing life.

As for a "failed gestation", yes having had several miscarriages, I can assure you that the pain hurt as much as any other death and was just as serious.

Sally, I have been thinking about you for the last couple of days, and even though at first I was angry and offended by your words, I am now thinking a little differently.

Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but why are you afraid to look at the pictures?

Is your seemingly bitter demeanor, and your denial of my miscarriage, my baby, and my grief, a way of protecting yourself from the pain of your own miscarriage/abortion?

Please, if this is the case...and I have a feeling it could be....please allow yourself the right to grieve. Please do not bottle it up in such a way... it will continue to come out in anger, with you lashing out inappropriately at people who did nothing to hurt you. Also, you will inevitably feel the pain later on...I think it would be better to get the grieving out now, rather than later. The pain only gets more intense the longer it is held back.

We're here for you if you ever need a shoulder to cry on.

I understand the pain that you might be experiencing, and the fear of allowing yourself to acknowledge it. Perhaps it is guilt that keeps you from acknowledging it. Read this book, "I'll Hold you in Heaven", by Jack Hayford. His book is extremely comforting, whether you have had a miscarriage, abortion, or any other kind of loss. His words are not judgmental, they are kind and caring, and you will feel comforted by his words.

Here are other links that may be helpful in your situation:

Honey, your intentions are so sweet and kind. They really are. And so misplaced. I have no issues with my abortion. I do have issues with my assualt and how religionists have dealt with my assault and PTSD.I find PLs to have an abusive agenda and that is why I am here.
I'm certainly not lacking in christian religious indocrination. There have been ministers in my family since way before the reformation.
I'm certainly not afraid to look at simulations of anything. I've just never liked comic books.
But, thank you so much for the shoulder offer. Like I said, you are kind. Some day you might actually have to handle the kind of grief that others have dealt with and you might feel a bit embarassed to having assumed the understanding nof such.

Silly girl. I aborted for the conveniece of not miscarrying. Having 3 children doesn't exactly make you a OB/GYN or an expert on how they got there let alone an expert on child rearing. Lord knows that you know nothing about nutrition.

Sorry, not buying it.

Honey, your intentions are so sweet and kind. They really are. And so misplaced. I have no issues with my abortion.

Again, not buying it. If you have no issues with your abortion, there's no way that 10 years after you abortion, you would be vehemently posting at pro-life forums, trying to attack those who don't support what you did.
Suppose I had my breasts enhanced one day(I wouldn't, but just to make the point), I wouldn't be going to forums where people think plastic surgery is wrong, and debating them on it for years and years and years. If I truly believed there was nothing wrong with my decision, I wouldn't even talk to those people, or acknowledge they existed at all. I would go on with my life, and let them have their own opinion. After all, they would be entitled to it. This is America.

Some day you might actually have to handle the kind of grief that others have dealt with and you might feel a bit embarassed to having assumed the understanding nof such.

You lack true experience and understanding.

I'm certainly not afraid to look at simulations of anything. I've just never liked comic books.

Sally, I know you're not stupid enough to really think those are comic book pictures. So I'll just leave it at that.

Sally, what do you mean that you aborted for the sake of not miscarrying?