Catholic coach: pro-abortion, pro-Hillary

According to yesteday's New York Times, Archbishop Raymond Burke has asked St. Louis University officials to take "appropriate action" against head basketball coach Rick Majerus, who told a reporter while attending a Hillary Clinton rally over the weekend he's pro-abortion and supports "stem cell research," which to me can only mean human embryo experimentation in light of the context of the reporter's question, unless he clarifies (click on graphic for link):

coach2.jpg

According to the NYT, Burke responded, from the March for Life, coincidentally:

"I'm concerned that a leader at a Catholic university made these comments.... It can lead Catholics astray. I just believe that it's of the essence for people to understand as a Catholic you just cannot hold these beliefs."

At this point, it appears SLU is snubbing Burke. The USA Today blog says spokesperson Jeff Fowler responded:

"Rick's comments were his own personal view. They were made at an event he did not attend as a university representative. It was his own personal visit to the rally. The comments were his, he was not speaking for the university in whatever comments he made to Channel 4."

I disagree. As columnist Bill Pollack queried, "Would the coach of Army or the Naval Academy ever speak out against the war in Iraq?"

majerus3.jpgAdded Burke to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

"When you hold a position in a Catholic university, you don't have to embrace everything the Catholic church teaches. But you can't make statements which call into question the identity and mission of the Catholic church.... You can't have a Catholic university with one of its prominent staff making declarations" in conflict with the church.

Pollack also wrote, "I've always found it ironic that he dresses like a priest, sans the collar."

Not surprisingly, idiots are calling this a free speech issue, which it is not. We have the right, as U.S. citizens, to free speech, but not as employees. It is grounds for termination of an employee, particularly in a leadership position, to countermand his or her employer.

Will Majerus be disciplined? I think not, although Burke is one tough pro-life cookie, so I hope I'm wrong. The guy should be fired. He's paid to influence young men to perform at their peak in all aspects, not just physically. He cannot possibly do that with a pro-abortion stance. That's one very important indicator of a messed up mentor.


Comments:

"He's paid to influence young men to perform at their peak in all aspects, not just physically. He cannot possibly do that if pro-abortion"

I don't see why not.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 10:13 AM


Hal,

It is a Catholic School after all, and our definition of performing at peak is not going to be the same as the secular worlds. Certainly, accepting abortion, would not be performing at peak in the Catholic world, the goal being to perform as a Catholic...See?

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 10:19 AM


I understand the Catholic issue, and I suppose I would be okay if they fired him. Jill's comment I quoted seemed to be broader than that, and I thought she meant that a pro-abortion coach was always a bad idea, even at a non-Catholic institution. I might have misunderstood.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 10:22 AM


Hal,

Jill probably does mean that, but that would not be reason to fire him. The firing comes from his lack of Catholic perspective...similar to a Jewish coach teaching at a Jewish school telling his students to eat bacon before the big game since it's a good source of protein...lol

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 10:29 AM


Understood. I guess that's the reason I'm not a coach at a Catholic school (or Jewish)

On an unrelated note, my daughter has applied to a Catholic High School (Jesuit) for next year. I'll have to practice my tolerance and patience.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 10:37 AM


"On an unrelated note, my daughter has applied to a Catholic High School (Jesuit) for next year."

Woo hoo!

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 10:39 AM


Hal,

You've to to admit that's kind of funny! Oh my goodness. It's like Divine Providence or something. I wish I could give you my sympathies, but of course I think that's wonderful...I do understand tho, that it must be somewhat of a disappointment...not that she got accepted into a good college, but that she chose a "religious" one. Have no fear tho. For the most part, Catholic colleges tend to be extremely liberal. Can I ask which one, or would that be giving away too much "private" info. I know you said that you are well known in your town and I wouldn't want you to compromise your anonymity.

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 10:47 AM


MK,it's high school (9th-12th grade) I do think it's funny. It's a really good school, and I can be tolerant of the Catholic aspect. She didn't pick it because of the religious part, obviously. I don't think it will hurt her to be exposed to some religion. (I can't believe I'm saying this...)

Anyway, we'll see what happens, we haven't heard yet if she was accepted.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 10:54 AM


Hal, I do believe that all people who are pro-abortion aren't thinking clearly and their counsel is suspect. That's me. That said, being pro-abortion isn't typically a deal breaker for guiding young people. But when paid by a church organization that heralds being pro-life as a component to remain in good standing, one should definitely not be pro-abortion.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 24, 2008 10:57 AM


Oh, a High School...Yes, here in Chicago, St. Ignatius and Loyola are at the top of the academic charts...kids that want good education, put out big bucks in spite of, not because of, their religious affiliation. Oddly enough, I have been willing to sacrifice the "academic" quality for the "religious" quality and send my kids to less prestigious but more "Catholic" schools. There really isn't anywhere to get "both"...at least not around here. So have no fear, she won't be getting much in the way of Catholic formation at a Jesuit High School. But she will be getting "smart"! lol

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 10:59 AM


Bobby,

Are you still there? I'd like to email you something...

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 11:07 AM


"...I don't think it will hurt her to be exposed to some religion. (I can't believe I'm saying this...)"
--------------------------------------------

Hal...I don' think it will hurt your daughter for attending Catholic school...I'm curious more on how it will affect you?

We , as Catholic school parents, have to stick to
certain moral values as part of the children's education at home...I can just imagine the "discussions" at the dinner table.

Good luck and I hope your daughter gets accepted.


Posted by: RSD at January 24, 2008 11:40 AM


*grins* It'll be fine, Hal. Most the atheists I know started off in Catholic school. It's what got them all heathen-ish in the first place!

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 11:57 AM


Should a woman who engaged in pre-marital sex, had an out-of-wedlock pregnancy and then divorced be allowed to address a Catholic school?

What kind of message would that send?

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 24, 2008 11:58 AM


Also...

*GLOMP*

MK! I MISSED YOU!!

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 11:58 AM


Laura,

That depends on the message being delivered...if she is defending those past deeds/ actions, then this should not be allowed in a Catholic institution..BUT if the topics are about forgiveness, healing, trust, hope..etc...I don't see any problem with the speaker.

Case in point: Google Fr. Corapi's previous life or even St. Augustine's for that matter.

Posted by: RSD at January 24, 2008 12:07 PM


Erin,

I missed you too! I thought of you guys so many, many times. At Mass I pulled out my "purple paper" and prayed for all of you. And every young face I saw, I'd wish it was yours.

Truly, the whole thing was so incredible! Even the cab drivers were nice about what we were doing. It made you feel so much a part of something bigger than yourself. I'm not explaining this very well, but it was HUGE!

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 12:21 PM


Fr Corapi is my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 12:22 PM


"*grins* It'll be fine, Hal. Most the atheists I know started off in Catholic school. It's what got them all heathen-ish in the first place!"

Sadly Erin, I think you make a very valid point. The catechesis at these so-called Catholic schools is usually abysmal. I know mine was miserable, and I often hear of so many fallen away Catholics who have left the faith for the very reason you mention.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 12:28 PM


Hal, good luck to your daughter (and you, and the rest of your family)!! High school was absolutely THE worst time of my life, and I'm pretty sure I made it a living hell for my parents, too. I wouldn't relive it for anything.

Posted by: SamanthaT at January 24, 2008 12:44 PM


"We , as Catholic school parents, have to stick to
certain moral values as part of the children's education at home"

Okay, now I am worried. I have no moral values....or at least not Catholic ones.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 12:57 PM


Hal - there were a few years during my childhood when my mom was going back to school for her masters and my dad was working on sundays that neither of them could take my sister and I to the Unitarian church we usually attended.

My mom felt strongly about us keeping in the habit of church on Sundays though - even though it was more about community and spirituality than god-fearing or any specific religion. So we ended up going with a family friend to Baptist church with her for a little over a year. It was certainly a HUGE change from the Unitarian congregation, and for the most part, I disagreed with a lot of what I heard even then, but the core values that were important to my parents were the same: charity, community involvement, and a general sense of spirituality.

This is basically a long-winded way of telling you that as non-Catholic as your daughter may be, and as non-Baptist as I was and still am, its not entirely a bad thing as long as she is firm enough in her beliefs that it wont make her feel insecure or upset.

Posted by: Amanda at January 24, 2008 2:03 PM


speaking of Catholic colleges, King's College in NY keeps sending me stuff and telling me to apply, which they now have generously waived the app fee and have said im eligible for 11 grand in scholarships.


I've seriously considered sending them an essay about how they really shouldn't want me because I'd be unable to live up to whatever the Catholic moral expectations. I think it'd be a lot of fun to write, but not worth it. lol

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:13 PM


F.Facist,

She should not be excluded. You are missing the point. If she promoted it to the students, or said to the media that she supported the practice of pre-marital sex and divorce, then her employer, the Catholic school, should say something. They can employ gay people, adulterers and even pro-aborts. But if those people start promoting their practices while on the payroll of the Church, therein lies the problem.

Posted by: Alex at January 24, 2008 2:16 PM


Thanks Amanda. No worries about her bening insecure or upset. I'm more worried she'll convert the rest of the school to our evil ways...

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 2:19 PM


ah, but Alex, at the time he was not under payroll. He was on his own time with his own private life and breaking no laws. Just because you arent on the same political side as your employer doesnt mean they should be allowed to fire you.

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:20 PM


Dan the man! Tell me about the calc exam. Any cool problems?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 2:21 PM


hahaha Hal. I could picture the headlines now. "Jesuit school goes Secular: One girl's mission at a private christian university"

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:21 PM


AGH it was TERRIBLE. The whole class stayed after until we were told we had 5 minutes to finish it or he was taking it. So essentially half the class decided they were beating a dead horse, so they turned it in. He told us beforehand he was going to have to scale it. Now we know why.

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:23 PM


So was it on integration?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 2:25 PM


Derivatives, Rieamann (sp?) sums, definite integrals, some related rates, some implicit differentiation, and a good amount of optimization.

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:27 PM


Beautiful, beautiful. Well, he can't fail you all, right?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 2:29 PM


Dan,

*winces* ouch.

Posted by: Stephanie at January 24, 2008 2:32 PM


well, I think hes using a bell curve scale, meaning a few of prolly will get F's...

but even if i get a 0 i think the lowest grade i can go down to is from an 89 to like a 73 or something like that, so it wont be too bad. I mean, i hope the scale brings me to like an A on the test so i could get an a- or an a for the term, but i doubt it

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:35 PM


Ugh. I still twitch thinking about my AP Calc class. The only good thing I got out of that was exempting my math core in college. Ick.

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 2:44 PM


Dan & Erin,

I must apologize on behalf of all these math teachers who turn people off from mathematics. Unacceptable.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 2:46 PM


well, im thinking bout passing on the AP Calc AB exam and just retaking the class next year to fulfill the core requirement. At this rate I don't think I could pull off the 3; the only reason im doing well in that class is because he, like, assumes we do homework, the problem sets (which I get help from friends of mine in Calc BC for), and take home quizzes.

oh, and that find the derivative quiz we had, easy peasy. But ugh, I hate calc. Math in general is kinda annoying, but once i start a problem i feel like i need to figure it out. Though, still doesnt explain why I'm on Math Team, heh heh

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:47 PM


Oh bobby, it isnt the teacher. He's AMAZING. calc is just terrible. I can do derivatives and second derivatives. I understand those, but its just so, like, pointless I guess. I'm never going to have to use it and all those other overused excuses.

If you could see my fb status now im sure you'd cringe, being the christian math fan you are. lol

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:48 PM


That's funny that you mention that Dan, because last term while I was teaching calculus, one of my student's (let's call her Sarah) facebook status said "Sarah is f*** calculus." And it's not like I was stalking her, we are friends on facebook! I had quite the laugh.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 2:53 PM


well mine right now is f*** calculus. Worst midterm ever. or something along those lines

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:56 PM


LOL. I understand. I frustrated the crap outta my students too.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 2:58 PM


lol, yeah...

hated that midterm. And of course thats the only class i have a final in too. Gr.

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 3:01 PM


Well, here's an update on my Dad for all of you who prayed for him (Thank you by the way!)

I got to the hospital and he had his neck brace on because they make him keep it on to get all his x-rays and tests. Then they said he could take it off..he did..and his neck started to hurt..so they're taking him for a CAT scan to make sure nothing is broken in his neck :|

I came home after that to put the baby to bed..but depending on how the cat scan goes..I should know something soon! Thanks for all of your prayers guys!

Oh, Dan and Bobby...eesh math talk..don't make me have an aneurism!

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 24, 2008 3:28 PM


Still praying Elizabeth. Thank you for the update.

Posted by: Carla at January 24, 2008 3:37 PM


I don't think he should be fired. Individuals are allowed to have their own opinions, regardless of who they work for. He wasn't speaking at a school event but a pro-choice rally. Individuals cannot be fired for their political views. That's discrimination and if he is terminated on those grounds I would urge him to sue.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 24, 2008 3:45 PM


Thanks Carla..I just found out that they are on their way home now..I think everything's okay now! yay!

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 24, 2008 3:50 PM


He'll probably die of a heart attack in the next year or so, so if he isn't fired then it probably won't matter that much.

;]

Of course, the Jesuits are typically fine with pro-aborts working at their schools and they even invite those who promote abortion to speak on their campuses (i.e. Madigan at Loyola).

Posted by: zeke13:19 at January 24, 2008 4:09 PM


Guys! Look what I found.

Me likey.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 4:09 PM


Loyola is a fantastic school. I applied there and got in, but didn't pursue it further because their strong points weren't really in my areas. Phenomenal school though.

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 4:11 PM


Wow, Erin, I like their positions on Birth Control and Abortion. And they're Catholic too. So, if I do get converted, I'll have a web home to visit.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 4:14 PM


I agree with Fowler.

And yes, people associated with the armed forces have spoken out against the war.

This seems kind of a "duh" question. Would you ask Wal Mart to fire employees if they see them at an Obama rally? Would you ask Phillips 66 to fire an employee to sometimes gets gas at Shell? He did not show up to her rally as part of the university, so why shouldn't he be allowed to openly support whatever candidate he wishes?

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 4:50 PM


"similar to a Jewish coach teaching at a Jewish school telling his students to eat bacon before the big game since it's a good source of protein...lol"
No, this guy was not on school premises.

"But if those people start promoting their practices while on the payroll of the Church, therein lies the problem."
So if a gay person goes to a gay rally off the clock, the school has a right to fire him? What kind of world are we living in?

"I don't think he should be fired. Individuals are allowed to have their own opinions, regardless of who they work for. He wasn't speaking at a school event but a pro-choice rally. Individuals cannot be fired for their political views. That's discrimination and if he is terminated on those grounds I would urge him to sue."
I agree

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 4:55 PM


Is it me or is FF beating a dead horse?

Should a woman who engaged in premarital sex...blah, blah, blah.
You can't seem to get over the fact that Jill has changed.

Posted by: Carla at January 24, 2008 4:56 PM


Also I'm not sure this guy ever claimed to be a Catholic. He's not a Jesuit, priest, theologian, or even mathematician. He teaches the kids basketball. And he could even improve on that I think.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 5:00 PM


PIP, on the video he says he's Catholic.

Erin and Hal, you can hardly say that website is part of true Catholicism. But good try. :)

Posted by: Kristen at January 24, 2008 5:15 PM


"He's not a ... mathematician."

Hehe, thanks for the shout out PIP.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at January 24, 2008 5:16 PM


Dan, I mostly lurk here, but I wanted to offer my condolences and crossed fingers about your calc exam. I considered majoring in math because I enjoyed it so thoroughly, but I went to the dark side and became an English major instead. Anyway, even though I really liked calculus and had a pretty decent grasp on it, there were times when I was like, "Screw this!"

On topic, this reminds me of that woman who was, I believe, a Catholic school teacher who got pregnant, and they fired her? I think I'm remembering it correctly. I really disliked that, because it seemed like an implicit message to hide (ie, abort) an unplanned pregnancy.

This is what I'm talking about:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1336240&page=1

Posted by: Alexandra at January 24, 2008 5:16 PM


Oh he did profess as a Catholic my bad. I did not hear about that before.

Regardless, he never proclaimed to be the face of the Catholic church. 70% of Church members use birth control.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 5:18 PM


"Hehe, thanks for the shout out PIP."

Thought you'd like that ;)

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 5:19 PM


*shrugs* Kristen, 'No True Scotsman' mean anything to you?

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 5:42 PM


Alexandra said:

"On topic, this reminds me of that woman who was, I believe, a Catholic school teacher who got pregnant, and they fired her? I think I'm remembering it correctly. I really disliked that, because it seemed like an implicit message to hide (ie, abort) an unplanned pregnancy."

They were right to fire her. She was a horrible example to her students and that is one thing that a teacher must be in order to teach at any Christian school - a great example.

Getting pregnant by shacking up with her boyfriend is NOT a great example to show students. Also, she had to be condemned and fired because not doing so would have given those students the impression that its OK to have sex outside of marriage.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at January 24, 2008 5:52 PM


Alexandra, that's terrible.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 5:58 PM


Alexandra that is absolutely horrifying, especially given the fact that her students were pre-school children. I hope they don't grow up thinking that they will be punished for confessing their sins.

Posted by: SamanthaT at January 24, 2008 6:14 PM


mk,

. So have no fear, she won't be getting much in the way of Catholic formation at a Jesuit High School. But she will be getting "smart"! lol

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 10:59 AM

The beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 24, 2008 6:15 PM


PIP,

70% of Church members use birth control.

While this might be true, 70% of Church members are not on their payroll. This is "private" school and as such has much more leeway in who they hire and who they fire. I'm not sure firing him is the right way to go either, but certainly he should be formally reprimanded.

As a Catholic parent, I pay enormous tuition fees, just so that my kids WILL be taught Catholic values. We have a protestant teacher in our primary school. No one objects, but she tows the line and obviously doesn't teach religion.

If this guy hadn't been on a video that got shown all over the web, I don't think anyone would be complaining tho. I mean if he was in his own backyard and said it to friends, it would be overlooked. But he is now in a visible format, dissenting from Catholic Teaching...to a reporter of all things. Not very bright, is he?

Posted by: mk at January 24, 2008 6:21 PM



Guys! Look what I found.

Me likey.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 4:09 PM

That is not really a group of catholics. It only exists on paper. It doesn't have events etc.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 24, 2008 6:22 PM



ah, but Alex, at the time he was not under payroll. He was on his own time with his own private life and breaking no laws. Just because you arent on the same political side as your employer doesnt mean they should be allowed to fire you.

Posted by: Dan at January 24, 2008 2:20 PM

I have to agree. I am sure the school is disappointed, but the man has a right to his opinion.

Posted by: hippie at January 24, 2008 6:25 PM


@Hippie,

I do not argue with you often, but in this case it's fine that I do so. This may be because of my experience that I do not know. It seems to me that when you are a youngish person, you place a great emphasis on 'the individual' but as I age community values become more prominent in my thinking. The Catholic Church is all about the dynamics of community.

I have been on committee after committee and spent several months to get policies just right. The Catholic Church often has spent considerable time and energies on this abortion issue. A person would be making a vast error in simply dismissing these thoughts as 'sue-able'.

The concepts of the 'coach' are ones that are at the very core of what it means to be Catholic, (and from a Catholic's perspective what it means to be human). The coach speaks for me because we are 'in Him'. Am I to pretend some sort of ambivalence towards human life? That would be appeasing but wrong.

The Catholic teaching here is so definite ... so solid, that an opposition is a real step into fantasy. Both the coach and the teacher in Alexandra's link must go.

A person is not different in being because he is on and off the job. Canada is filled with pro-abortion 'Catholic' politicians who claim that they can be Catholic and pro-abortion simultaneously - they cannot.... it is similar to a woman claiming to be partially pregnant ... either you are or you are not ... scuttle the 'partially' nonsense!

Posted by: John McDonell at January 24, 2008 7:24 PM


alexandra - that story is awful. think about the message its sending from people who are supposed to be pro life: keep your baby, lose your job and your living... have an abortion? no one will ever know...

the irony is painful...

Posted by: Amanda at January 24, 2008 7:41 PM


I know for a fact that this "CatholicsforChoice" website is composed of less than 10 people...if that even. It's all the workings of one or two people who paid to set up a website and have no verifiable members or supporters.

As far as Hal sending his daughter to a Catholic High School: It's run by Jesuits. They're notoriously liberal and often teach things that are contrary to traditional Catholic doctrine.

I also don't buy it for a minute that Hal is seriously considering allowing his daughter to attend a Catholic school.

Posted by: Mike at January 24, 2008 8:05 PM


"While this might be true, 70% of Church members are not on their payroll."
Plenty are on private payroll. I can guarantee that plenty of these people work at Catholic hospitals. If the administration found out would they have a right to fire them?

"This is "private" school and as such has much more leeway in who they hire and who they fire."
Doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. I have no problem voicing my opinions.

"I'm not sure firing him is the right way to go either, but certainly he should be formally reprimanded."
Sure, I think it's okay for SLU to go, "please don't do that again." But I don't think this is what people are asking them to do. For some reason I actually agree with the administration in that they shouldn't be able to do much more than that. He was on his own time; he wasn't getting paid to go there; he did not speak on behalf of the university; he was answering questions honestly. There's no reason to believe he did anything detrimental to the university because he did not claim to represent them and even stated that he is glad to live in a country that allows him to say such things. Seems like people here are too worried about saving face than doing the right thing though; like that story Alexandra posted.


"As a Catholic parent, I pay enormous tuition fees, just so that my kids WILL be taught Catholic values. We have a protestant teacher in our primary school. No one objects, but she tows the line and obviously doesn't teach religion."

That coach isn't teaching anything except how to play basketball. If he were to push values ONTO the players I"m sure we would hear about it. People aren't shy about complaining here.

"If this guy hadn't been on a video that got shown all over the web, I don't think anyone would be complaining tho. I mean if he was in his own backyard and said it to friends, it would be overlooked. But he is now in a visible format, dissenting from Catholic Teaching...to a reporter of all things. Not very bright, is he?"

No, can't say so. But wasn't he approached by the team? He might not have been thinking it was a big deal at the time, just answering questions for someone, which is typical of a lot of clueless people. Just watch reality TV.

amanda, hear hear!

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 8:07 PM


MIke,
Jesuits often turn out very successful students and religious alike. I'm sure nobody will argue that Georgetown is a great school. Don't be jealous! ;)

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 8:11 PM


by team above I meant camera crew, btw.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 8:11 PM


John,

I agree that the school has a right to ask him to be considerate of their position. Personally, I think the guy is wrong. It is just that legally, I think it would be a mess to fire him.

Posted by: hippie at January 24, 2008 8:25 PM


I am not catholic and all I know about Jesuits is that they are catholic. I do know about school culture however. If you want your school to have a strong presence in a particular area, you have to invest yourself in promoting student organizations that help students support each other. The high schools I taught at had religious clubs for everyone from mormons to muslims. They announced their activities every morning.

As for Jesuits being liberal, that can be a good thing you know. FYI, abortion isn't liberal, just wrong. Anyway, well here is a pic of some guys from a catholic high school who went on a school sponsored trip to the march for life.

http://www.strakejesuit.org/s/103/strake.aspx?sid=103&gid=1&pgid=1646&

Posted by: hippie at January 24, 2008 8:37 PM


hippie,

when people accuse jesuits of being "liberal" it's usually because they emphasize service and freethinking in order to supplement faith. Some people are threatened by that and see it as heretical.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 9:52 PM


@hippie and PiP,

before victimization sets in: before even attending class a teacher signs a contract that he/she will have a certain decorum. For a new teacher at a Catholic school, this can be quite extensive. ((I do not think this has hit Catholic schools, but in many jobs a woman pre-signs not to get pregnant for the first few years of employment and if she does will be dismissed rather than get maternity leave.))

This was signed and accepted as part of her employment. She is now crying 'foul'. Amanda says she is going to Africa. What would/should happen to Amanda if she said there were explosives in her luggage. She might not like the attention the airport police show her but these consequences she knew beforehand ... should these be different?

Posted by: John McDonell at January 24, 2008 9:56 PM


I don't LIKE the firing of a single, pregnant teacher..but I get why the Catholic school would do so. AND they are a private institution so they can do as they please with their staff.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 24, 2008 10:13 PM


@PiP,

most Jesuits are superb academics ... they study for a minimum 12 years post secondary school and often are PhD's ... specializing in teaching. There are a few though who are adept at heresy and I do mean heresy .... and not because their brilliance makes me shake. This only makes them clever heretics!

Posted by: John McDonell at January 24, 2008 10:20 PM


"I also don't buy it for a minute that Hal is seriously considering allowing his daughter to attend a Catholic school."

Oh, but I really am. It's a good school. About 24% of the students are non-Catholic, and my daughter was really impressed by the classes, and the sports. If she gets in, she's going.

Posted by: Hal at January 24, 2008 10:41 PM


Well that's good Hal..I'm glad you're open about your daughter having different experiences even though you feel differently about certain aspects of them. Plus, good education is VERY important!

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 24, 2008 10:45 PM


"((I do not think this has hit Catholic schools, but in many jobs a woman pre-signs not to get pregnant for the first few years of employment and if she does will be dismissed rather than get maternity leave.))"
This is the kind of stuff Feminists for Life does not approve of. All these policies do is encourage abortion.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 10:54 PM


All these policies do is encourage abortion.

Or steer the women to other places of employment?

I mean that's what I would do if that was a stipulation in my contract that I didn't agree with.

I dont think there is a gun to there heads making them sign..if you don't like the contract, don't sign it..but if you BREAK the contract..they can fire you.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 24, 2008 11:01 PM


What if the woman signs with no intention of getting pregnant and then gets pregnant? If she has an abortion, she won't get fired. Sounds like the solution to me..

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 24, 2008 11:34 PM


Do they have stipulations that prohibit men from becoming fathers? If not, it is discrimination with a capital D.

We should have laws prohibiting such discrimination. It is crazy to sign to say you won't get pregnant and no one should expect it. Talk about invasion of privacy.

Posted by: hippie at January 24, 2008 11:50 PM


Right on, hippie!

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 12:05 AM


Having been educated in the Catholic School System my entire life, I find it interesting that the vast majority of Catholic schools today, (both elementary and secondary) have waiting lists for people who want to send their kids there...whether they themselves are Catholic or not.

I firmly believe this coach should be fired. He is paid to uphold the teachings of the church, and for him to voice his opinions on these issues publicly is a conflict of interest. If he feels this way, he shouldn't be working at a Catholic school, period.

Some time ago, I read where a woman who was teaching at a Catholic elementary school was fired for being an escort at a Planned Parenthood on weekends. Then she cried foul when she got busted. What an IDIOT !

Posted by: Mike at January 25, 2008 12:48 AM


*shrugs* Kristen, 'No True Scotsman' mean anything to you?

Posted by: Erin at January 24, 2008 5:42 PM

No, I'm Irish. LOL ;)


Posted by: Kristen at January 25, 2008 7:50 AM


The fact of the matter is that (at least at the Catholic schools around me) the students, parents, and staff all have to sign a "code of ethics." You don't sign, you don't attend/work and that's it. Catholic schools are not the only places that require something like this, so I don't see why everyone is shocked that he could be reprimanded/fired.

Georgetown is a good school but I can't say it's a good "Catholic" school. My brother-in-law went to Notre Dame and, sad to say, he's Catholic only in name. Really I'd prefer he just left the Church at this point rather than tell everyone he's Catholic and espouse his "brand" of Catholicism.

Posted by: Kristen at January 25, 2008 7:57 AM


Believe what you guys want, if the women working at these places have an abortion because they aren't allowed to have children I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 8:12 AM


PIP.

Why is it that abortion is always the first choice that comes to your mind when someone gets pregnant?

It's like...oooh..new baby..let's kill it!

Posted by: RSD at January 25, 2008 9:07 AM


PIP, hippie,

Georgetown University may be a good school, but it is NOT the place to go if you are pro-life and/or want to LIVE the Catholic Faith, For example, if you Google "Georgetown University and Planned Parenthood" you will find that Georgetown med students are interning at Planned Parenthood. One girl called her Mom crying after she and her classmates were dropped off in the parking lot of a Planned Parenthood. Georgetown is teaching our country's future abortionists!

A relative of mine left the Catholic Church after graduating from Georgetown. She wanted to be married in an outdoor wedding in California (how romantic), and the Catholic Church doesn't officially allow outdoor weddings, you must be married in a Catholic Church. She also didn't think it was right that women can't be priests (although she had no desire to be one herself).

Obviously, there are Jesuits at Georgetown who aren't doing a very good job teaching the Catholic faith.

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 11:22 AM


"Why is it that abortion is always the first choice that comes to your mind when someone gets pregnant?

It's like...oooh..new baby..let's kill it!"
Don't ask me, I'm pro-life. If a woman gets fired because she gets pregnant, it's like wow! Let's kill it! Otherwise I won't have a job!
Just the kind of stuff FFL wants to counteract.

"A relative of mine left the Catholic Church after graduating from Georgetown. She wanted to be married in an outdoor wedding in California (how romantic), and the Catholic Church doesn't officially allow outdoor weddings, you must be married in a Catholic Church. She also didn't think it was right that women can't be priests (although she had no desire to be one herself)."
A catholic school can't force you to believe a certain way. It's not their fault if someone steps away from the faith after learning about it.

As for PP I don't really know about that. At SLU you don't have to do that.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 11:45 AM


And as hippie said, if you want to avoid discrimination, men better be fired if they have children as well.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 12:04 PM


Okay... let me try to wrap my head around this.. because honestly, the ridiculousness of it all makes my brain ache...

Lets say I'm a teacher at a Catholic school... I am not married but live with my significant other. We don't make too much money, but we get by...

I need to sign a contract saying I won't get pregnant, but at the same time, all forms of contraception are evil and pregnancy should never have to be planned because it should be happy and joyous no matter what!? okay... so....

I get pregnant, and hooray! I dont want to have an abortion, I want to have this baby! I'm happy to be pregnant! BUT then I get fired from my job for (ok wrap your head around this one) NOT using contraception, AND for wanting to keep my baby??? okay so now what do i do...

Now I'm unemployed and pregnant. Thats great! Because COBRA doesn't cover comprehensive prenatal care! And who is going to hire and insure a NEW employee who is going to require maternity in less than 6 months? Hmmm...pretty much no one! Adoption? Sure, maybe thats a great idea, but how are we going to pay the rent and feed ourselves now that I don't have a job? Shall we go get on food stamps! HELL NO!! Liberal government handouts are just as evil as contraception!!

WOW! What WONDERFUL and forgiving and charitable options these supposed followers of Christ give pregnant women, while preaching against abortion out of the other end of their mouths.

Honestly...this is the sort of absolute CRAP that makes my head spin. Its like backing someone in to a corner and getting mad when they fight back... unbelievable....

Posted by: Amanda at January 25, 2008 12:10 PM


Amanda, hear hear!

When women are no longer under professional pressure to abort, the more we do to make abortions unnecessary, and more we can challenge abortion legality laws.

"Does Feminists for Life want to criminalize women for having abortions?
The early feminists enacted laws against abortion as consumer protection for women.

FFL has never advocated prosecuting women seeking abortion, although we believe that women are capable of following the law. Why doesn’t the law hold accountable those who threaten or coerce a woman into an abortion by withholding financial resources and emotional support? Abandonment is a powerful form of coercion.

We should criminalize anyone who withholds child support, fires a woman from her job because she is pregnant, refuses to accommodate her pregnancy, expels her from school, or threatens violence—-any act that forces her to choose between sacrificing her child and sacrificing her education, career plans, or safety from violence.

We believe that we should hold responsible those who profit from women’s pain—-especially the abortion industry.

Most important, we need to jump into hyperdrive to provide resources and solutions that will support women."

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 12:24 PM


Amanda 2:10,

In your hypothetical.... if she KNOWS she'll be FIRED if she gets pregnant, she should be ABSTAINING from SEX!

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 1:10 PM


Ahhhhhh Anonymous2 - thats a GREAT Catholic notion. Poor people shouldn't have sex unless they are willing to SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES, even at the expense of their child.

Righto!


How depressing....

Posted by: Amanda at January 25, 2008 1:27 PM


Lol, Amanda..who said anything about poor people? Depending on how many years you have been teaching at a Catholic school..they get paid better than public school teachers.

And whether you LIKE IT OR NOT...if you sign the contract..you have to follow the contract stipulations or you are fired. If you don't want to be fired or adhere to that contract...DON'T SIGN IT! It's not like they're saying.."Well maybe we'll fire you or we won't.." They are saying they will! So if your job is THAT important to you..follow the rules!

And to all you preaching about equal rights/discrimination..then WHY does the guy have no legal say in whether a woman can have an abortion if it's EQUAL rights to the child? You want everything equal..you better be damn sure you cover all your bases.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 1:45 PM


Elizabeth, even paid better than public school teachers often doesn't amount to much.

ah, but elizabeth, here's the beauty of it. Firing a woman for getting pregnant is discriminatory based on gender under law. You cant fire a woman for getting pregnant, it falls under wrongful termination/discriminatory termination in most cases.

And once again, men shouldnt have kids out of wedlock either, better fire them too.

And this isnt about abortion first off, this is more about discrimination.

Second: there should be a discussion between the two over abortion in a perfect relationship. But the choice is ultimately the woman's at it is her body on the line, not the man's.

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 1:53 PM


Elizabeth -

try getting by in NYC on a teacher's salary. My boyfriend and I were both employed by colleges, and if either of us had ever lost our jobs, we would have been a few paychecks away from going hungry and/or being evicted from our apartment. As far as I'm concerned, living pretty much paycheck to paycheck = poor. And we were both college grads, I can only imagine if we made even less than we did.

If an abortion costs about 500 dollars, and the woman gets to keep her job that pays 35k a year or more vs being unemployed and pregnant, I think its pretty obvious why so many women end up choosing abortion.

not all of us have the luxury of just passing on a job because of something as ridiculous as not being allowed to get pregnant, especially when you're not PLANNING on doing so.

if you want more women to celebrate pregnancy instead of fear it and terminate it, you should be the first one speaking out against these sorts of RIDICULOUS "rules".

Posted by: Amanda at January 25, 2008 1:55 PM


*high fives Amanda*

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 2:29 PM


And this isnt about abortion first off, this is more about discrimination.

If you don't think abortion is about discrimination, well then I can't really help you there.

And once again, men shouldnt have kids out of wedlock either, better fire them too.

You're right they shouldn't..but it isn't as easy to tell cause they don't have the protruding abdomen of course.

Having kids doesn't make the men physically unable to do their job for some time like it does for women. Based on the morality alone..yes, fire him..he knew the rules, he broke them, he gets canned too.

ah, but elizabeth, here's the beauty of it. Firing a woman for getting pregnant is discriminatory based on gender under law. You cant fire a woman for getting pregnant, it falls under wrongful termination/discriminatory termination in most cases.

Ahh, but dan they can. It's a private school..and Catholic schools often have teachers adhere to a code of ethics. So if they don't, they can be fired.

It's like on the show "Blues Clues" that my daughter watches. They found out the guy was a cocaine addict..so they fired him and got a new one. Why? Because what kind of a message does it send if they don't? That you can still do drugs and keep your job. No..your choices affect EVERYTHING in your life whether you like to admit it or not.

The Catholic Church doesn't approve of sex before marriage so if YOU sign the contract and then get caught up in BREAKING that contract..they can fire you.

I'm not saying I AGREE..it's just their right to do so..you know like that RIGHT to have an abortion that you guys agree with that I don't.

Guess the shoe is on the other foot this time.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 2:36 PM


Elizabeth,

I just can't believe you are defending this. You of all people should know what it is like to run into a hard situation but to do the right thing regardless. The contract inherently promotes abortion, so someone in your situation would be fired or forced to abort. No choice. No room for life. What kind of example is a woman who aborts sending to children?

I guess as long as you are a "Catholic" institution you can devalue women all you want.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 2:41 PM


You of all people should know what it is like to run into a hard situation but to do the right thing regardless.

I do and I would have done the same thing if I were working at job where I KNEW that I could be fired for doing so. Although if I had KNOWN it before hand, I might have not had sex in the first place.

I guess as long as you are a "Catholic" institution you can devalue women all you want.

How does it devalue women exactly if she knew what she signed and did it anyway? It seems like cause and effect to me..which happens to everybody. My dad knows he can't show up wasted to work or he'll probably get fired..does that mean it's THEIR FAULT he showed up wasted to work?

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 2:51 PM


Elizabeth, so fire them because they cant work when pregnant? thats discrimination against women at its worst. Second, private institution or not they have to obey all laws to set up shop in the U.S. including discriminatory practices such as that. There are certain exceptions due to dogma (i.e. priests being men, etc) but firing a woman because shes pregnant is not one of those exceptions. Perhaps if she were a nun you could get away with it, but otherwise, if you were sued youd most likely lose.

second, drugs are illegal = valid reason for termination. The user has commited a crime and is possibly a safety hazard/liability, unlike a pregnant woman.

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 2:57 PM


Amanda,

You don't get it. The Catholic Church believes that pregnancy is beautiful and a gift from God, and not "a consequence to be suffered" for having sex. If you would study what the Catholic Church teaches instead of berating it based on hearsay, you might understand.

You are quick to point out all of the problems associated with pre-marital sex but won't admit that adhering to the teachings of the Catholic Church allows one to COMPLETELY avoid them.
(You don't have to be Catholic to follow the logic.) It's when people don't follow the rules that they tend to get into trouble.

I only speak for myself, but it would be fairly easy for me to say "who cares" about this whole issue of abortion because, hey, I'M not having them..But it wouldn't be right to just look the other way and let the next generations deal with the same problems as well.

It might be difficult (life is like that some times), but, Amanda, you COULD MOVE out of NYC to a place where a 35k a year salary could actually be enough to sustain a decent standard of living. There are parts of the country where you can get a few acres of land with a nice house for a TINY fraction of what you pay for an apartment in NYC each year.

Elizabeth,

I just read your last post and PIP's. Thanks for your comments.

PIP,

The contract promotes abortion in YOUR mind because you fail to see the situation from the Catholic viewpoint.

Catholicism does not "devalue women". Mary, the Mother of God, is highly revered BECAUSE of her role in Jesus' birth, a fact that many non-Catholics don't understand.

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 2:58 PM


Wasted=Alcohol..that's not illegal.

Really, Dan..did that woman sue the Catholic school and win? I really do not know because all I remember hearing about was the story itself. If you find out, please let me know.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 2:59 PM


Are you really THAT confused about how a contract works exactly? If you sign a contract and BREAK it..that means the contract no longer is being adhered to, therefore, they can terminate your employment. You didn't hold up your end of the bargain so why should they?

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 3:03 PM


I dont know if she sued or not elizabeth, I'm saying she probably could have and won had she thought to.

second wasted at work: negligent behavior, illegal reckless endangerment: illegal. The workers are endangered by his presence and he's become a safety hazard. Still grounds for termination

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:05 PM


Elizabeth, that contract is considered void if the court finds it to be discriminatory, you contest a contract after the fact. If the contract is voided for discrimination, which it very well could be in a case such as this, seeing as how the standard would typically only be enforced on the women who work there, there could still be legal routes open to the woman. But seeing as how I doubt she made much, even at a catholic school, she probably didn't have the money/resources to do a thing

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:07 PM


I don't really think she could have won had she signed the contract, Dan. Contracts hold up in court you know. If she knew it was discriminatory and still signed it..she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 3:07 PM


Anon2, you mean like how she CHOSE to give birth to Jesus after God ASKED her to?

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:09 PM


comparing a woman getting pregnant unexpectedly and deciding to keep her child to a guy on a kids TV show doing coke = wow.

it all comes down to this - if you dont' want prengancy to be viewed as a punishment, DONT PUNISH WOMEN FOR GETTING PREGNANT.

How you could compare that to a dude being addicted to coke just blows my mind.

Posted by: Amanda at January 25, 2008 3:14 PM


Also Anon2, I brought this up with MK as well, but her response in a nutshell was essentially "it involves lives so no" (sorry how ineloquent i just put that MK! I'm just dead tired and cant think of a better way to say it)and I'd be interested as to your reaction granted the I cant ignore it etc comment.

"Leave unto Caesar's what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's" (rough recall from memory)

Jesus says this when the Pharisees try to trap him into a bad answer regarding the laws requiring that tax be paid to the government. Essentially Jesus seems to be saying follow the laws, but be faithful and follow God's own laws personally.

Now wouldnt that mean you could just not deal with it, follow the government's laws, and just not get one because personally you dont believe in it?

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:15 PM


Dan, 3:09,

What's your point? I don't follow.

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 3:18 PM


It was an example of him not adhering to the message he was trying to convey to kids Amanda. The same thing the woman was doing when she went to work at a Catholic school and had pre-marital sex which the Catholic church is against. Is it really that confusing?

I understand that it is biased against women, but it is slightly harder to tell when men are having pre-marital sex. Duh. Unless the man tells or somebody finds out, it's a little bit harder for the school to be aware of the male teacher's activities as opposed to the female. I do believe that they would fire a man if a similar situation came up. If not, then I'll have something to say about it. Until that point, there's really nothing you can do.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 3:19 PM


Point being that according to scripture you should follow any law the government may pass, so long as it does not affect the practicing of His teachings. i.e. Just dont get an abortion if you find it wrong, but if the government allows it, go ahead, whoever participates or agrees etc etc will pay the punishment for not following the faith/laws/etc.


"I only speak for myself, but it would be fairly easy for me to say "who cares" about this whole issue of abortion because, hey, I'M not having them..But it wouldn't be right to just look the other way and let the next generations deal with the same problems as well."

So doesnt that mean you could ignore it and let future generations to decide? I mean, either way you are adhering to your faith, so why do you feel you need to speak up about the issue? Let the government cycles come and go, it doesnt matter to God so long as you follow His teachings

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:24 PM


well Elizabeth, considering one is illegal and one isnt, and one is discriminatory and one isnt, it is pretty confusing.

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:25 PM


Anon2 & Elizabeth -

And what in Gods name is wrong with a teacher conveying a message to her kids of "I got pregnant out of wedlock, but I love my baby and I want to keep it!!!" ???

Isnt that what ALL pro lifers are trying to say?? KEEP YOUR BABIES!!! But lets fire her and tell everyone she's conveying a bad message by following through with her pregnancy? How can anyone justify such a disgusting contradiction?

Posted by: Amanda at January 25, 2008 3:28 PM


God... this thread has me FUMING.

THIS line of thinking is why I can't associate myself with Pro Life or even Pro Choice anymore - such a ridiculous amount of hypocricy and contradictions.

One one hand, you have the militant pro choice types who make getting pregnant out to be the plague...

On the other hand, you have a disturbing number of pro lifers who think its perfectly acceptable to PUNISH a woman for getting pregnant and keeping her baby...

Take away the politics and religion, and guess what you have? Two groups of extremists sending the SAME message: "Pregnancy is BAD!!"

And guess what folks, whether we like it or not, that message HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER lead to less sex... only more abortions, infant abandonment, and misery for women who have done nothing wrong other than being a victim to their biology.

Posted by: Amanda at January 25, 2008 3:34 PM


I wasn't speaking of the legalities of the actions, Dan..I was speaking on the message they send to young people. You are taking the ideas out of context so you don't have to acknowledge what I'm actually trying to say.

Telling kids not to do drugs and then doing them yourself=mixed message

Telling kids not to have sex until marriage and then getting pregnant outside of marriage=mixed message (Catholic viewpoint of course since this is a Catholic institution we are talking about)

Kids will almost NEVER listen to what you say..but they will almost ALWAYS do what you do.

That's why as a parent you have to be MORE aware of your actions than of what you necessarily say to them. Okay, take my 2-year old daughter for example..She has learned the fine art of spitting recently. She learned this by watching me brush my teeth/gargle with mouthwash and then spit it out. Now I tell her not to do this all the time..but because she has SEEN me do it..she not only wants to do it, but in her mind makes it okay to do ALL THE TIME!

You have to lead by example is what I'm saying. Now if we are talking about the pro-life message, OF COURSE she is a good example. She chose not to abort when faced with a difficult situation. GOOD EXAMPLE! When we are talking about pre-marital sex and NOT having it which is what the Catholic Church TEACHES...BAD EXAMPLE!

Do you get it?

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 3:35 PM


Im referring to the reason for being fired though, not the good example bad example that you are using now. I understand where you are coming from in all of this, but either way the firing of that woman is wrong and quite possibly illegal. Firing a woman because she got pregnant is ridiculous no matter who she is working for.

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 3:41 PM


Well I googled it to see if she sued and won her case, and I didn't find anything..so I don't know if she did or not.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 3:43 PM


the firing of that woman is wrong

Well I think abortion is wrong, but you disagree...so I guess we won't agree on much..but good conversation is always a plus. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 3:44 PM


Dan, 3:09,

I said : "What's your point? I don't follow."

That question refers to the Mary, Mother of God remark you made at 3:09 PM.

##################
at 3:15 Dan said:

"Leave unto Caesar's what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's" (rough recall from memory)

Jesus says this when the Pharisees try to trap him into a bad answer regarding the laws requiring that tax be paid to the government. Essentially Jesus seems to be saying follow the laws, but be faithful and follow God's own laws personally.

Now wouldnt that mean you could just not deal with it, follow the government's laws, and just not get one because personally you dont believe in it?"

Dan, this is not quite up my alley, but this I can say: I believe that each individual has an important, unique purpose on this earth given by God, and we are all responsible to try to figure this out and be responsible for our choices and the effects our choices have on others, no matter how great or small. We will be judged in the end on how well we lived according to God's will.

We all make mistakes, but God is a merciful God. I think he gives us a lot of points for trying. (Figuratively speaking.)


Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 4:00 PM


"Catholicism does not "devalue women". Mary, the Mother of God, is highly revered BECAUSE of her role in Jesus' birth, a fact that many non-Catholics don't understand."
CAtholicism itself does not, that policy does. Saying "well it's private and Catholic" seems to be saying that it gives them a right to devalue them. You are taking away a woman's well-being because she has decided to give her baby life.

" if you dont' want prengancy to be viewed as a punishment, DONT PUNISH WOMEN FOR GETTING PREGNANT."
Seriously! No matter how many times you want to justify it with a "catholic values" mantra, it still sends the bad message: when you make a mistake, cover it up and kill the baby, rather than putting a scarlet letter on your tunic and do the right thing. At least you won't be pregnant and jobless!


If the school searched her bag and found a condom, should she be terminated too? What if it is found in a male teachers' wallet? I mean, why not hold every doctrine to everyone and fire every person that fails to perfectly hold on to the doctrine.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 4:04 PM


Elizabeth,

I found a story on the ABC new site from Feb.20, 2006. There are two different cases discussed. In the second case, the school was initially found guilty, but the ruling was later overturned. The pregnant teacher from Alabama, Tessana Lewis, was fired not for being pregnant but for having sex outside of marriage at the religious school. It was ruled that the school had a right to determine its own hiring practices.

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 4:13 PM


PIP, Amanda,

The last two paragraphs of my 4:00P.M. post to Dan kind of sum up my thinking.

All I am saying is responsibility and choice go hand-in-hand. The woman who is fired has a choice whether to abort or not, right? I agree, a woman who keeps her child would be a better example for the kids than the one that aborts.

Amanda, I agree... this thread... Yikes! It's moving faster than I can read or write. Looking back, I should have taken a break when things started getting heated (lots of CAPS is always a bad sign). Forgive me if I sounded harsh I didn't mean to make you angry.

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 5:00 PM


Anon2, I was reffering to how mary chose to have Jesus after God asked. (typically a response to how many 'lifers say that if Mary had been pro-choice there would be no Jesus, but I thought I'd throw it in at your reference to Mary since I hadn't been able to use it for awhile. Quite simply, I had gotten bored and was trying to get some sort of response from someone, its been an interesting discussion point in the past)


Anon2, as for the second half, I think that is a very good answer. Very well written/portrayed. Similar to mk's in a way when I posed it to her. It involves individual sould so even if the government legalizes it, christians still have the responsibility to do something about it.

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 5:40 PM


Dan 5:40,

Thanks Dan. That one about Mary just threw me for a loop. I thought you were being sarcastic. Like I said, I need to take a break once in a while!

Posted by: Anonymous2 at January 25, 2008 6:17 PM


lol, its ok. It happens.

Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 6:19 PM


@Pip,

the vast majority of teachers in a Catholic school are Catholics. So what you project in an effort to understand is the phrase "At least you won't be pregnant and jobless!" will much more likely be understood as "this murderer of her baby still has her job!" ....yeah, I guess. Her analysis of this situation will go deep, to the very core of what she believes ... her decision will come from some intense anguish.

Posted by: John McDonell at January 25, 2008 7:33 PM


maybe she'll joint the pro-choice Catholics.

Posted by: Hal at January 25, 2008 7:39 PM


They're not really Catholics, Hal.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 25, 2008 7:59 PM


John,

Yeah, she will have a tough decision. I'd say doing so encourages abortion because otherwise you will be both pregnant and jobless. It's a powerful coersion nontheless

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 25, 2008 8:01 PM


Majerus is a good coach, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the athletic boosters tell the bishop to sit down and keep quiet.

Posted by: Doug at January 27, 2008 2:43 PM