"Proponents of this initiative have publicly stated that the goal is to make all abortion illegal - but nothing in the language of the initiative or its title even mentions abortion," Kathryn Wittneben of NARAL Pro-Choice Colorado said in a statement. "If that's not misleading, I don't know what is."

Sound familiar???

--ummmmm let me think....oh, I know!!! Every single tactic PP used to get it's mills into cities across the US...

Now if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is!

It should be interesting to see how this plays out. It will, of course, go far beyond abortion (hormonal birth-control, cloning, stem-cell research, IVF). I have a feeling that it's ill-timed, if it even passes.

If it does pass, and is enforced, I might just have to move to Colorado...

MK, me too.

It would make oral contraceptives illegal?

Good luck with that...

My gripe is, why are deciding who is a person based on popular vote?

And... I wonder, if it passes, if I'll be able to use the carpool lanes while pregnant on I-25...

If this is passed, then it would mean the end of in vitro fertilization in Colorado. The procedure always creates more embryos than it uses. If all those embryos are people with rights, then what is to stop someone from suing on their behalf to force the egg donor to carry them all to term one by one? If they are people with rights, do they get social security numbers? Do they receive SS benefits if their parents die prematurely? For that matter, when they are old enough, even if they haven't been born yet, do they get to vote?

Pro-lifers, meet Pandora. I am not sure you will like the contents of her box.

When scientists describe the amoeba, or the first one-celled organism on this planet, they refer to it as "life". When we look for "life" on Mars, we are looking to find at least a one-celled organism. Please, PC'ers, tell me why an e/z/f is not considered life, when an amoeba and other one-celled organisms are.

Actually, IVF is the Pandora's box epidemic of the "me me me" culture. The evil of IVF should never have been practiced to begin with.

Pro-lifers, meet Pandora. I am not sure you will like the contents of her box.

Posted by: Ray at November 16, 2007 12:22 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, the whole point of the pro-choice movement is to get everybody to mind their own box, and leave everyone else's box alone...

Take care of your own box, and you won't need abortion.

Make fun if you like, but I maintain that there are all kinds of unpleasant surprises for everyone if this can of worms is opened.

And thank you, Anonymous, for at least being consistent when you condemn IVF. It drives me nuts when so called pro-lifers oppose abortion, but don't have any problem with IVF, or don't have any problem with IVF, but oppose embryonic stem cell research. These things are all related, and you can't choose from them like a buffet.

Ray, does anything about pro choicers drive you nuts?

Ray, does it drive you nuts when you hear about an abortionist who has raped a slew of his patients? Does it drive you nuts when abortionists botch the abortion, and women die? How about children born maimed from an incomplete abortion? Doesn't that drive you nuts? Ray, does it drive you nuts when women abort 5,7,13 times? Ray, these things just drive me nuts.

Arg! Anonymous was me, BTW, Ray. I'm in the hospital with a different computer so i keep forgetting to put my name down. But yeah, i appreciate the fact that you understand that the two issues are quite linked. I too, get frustrated when pro-lifers don't see the connection and oppose IVF.

Ray, does it drive you nuts when you hear that there are 1.3 million abortions annually?

Ray, does anything about pro choicers drive you nuts?

It is hypocrisy that drives me nuts. Pick your stance on an issue, and then be consistent about it.

Pat Robertson is a great example. He proclaims his christianity loudly on TV, then makes astonishingly unchristian statements, like calling for the assassination of the elected leader of a country. WWJD, indeed!

I am not thrilled about everything espoused by every pro choice organization, but I don't see any of them oozing with hypocrisy. Somehow I am sure that at least some of you will beg to differ.

Hey Bobby,

I hope all is going well with the birth!

Bobby, hope all is well!

Thanks Ray. Indeed it is! We get to go home in like one hour with little Gianna. It's gonna be crazy for you, man. Your wife will cease to be your wife for several hours :)

Oh, pro choice organizations do to!!

Thanks Heather. Wow, I love my baby!

Bobby, welcome to the "no sleep" for a while crowd.:}

Bobby, she'll just get cuter and cuter as time goes by. Again, congratulations!

Oh I'm there, Heather! I've gotten about 4 total the past two nights. Thank goodness that my mother-in-law is here.

Congrats Bobby! Just remember, no matter what the nurses say, NEVER WAKE A SLEEPING BABY! She'll wake up when she's hungry. Take it from me (6 kids) and I'm sure MK would agree.

I don't know about "egg rights" but I had three of them for breakfast, hard-boiled.

I don't know about "egg rights" but I had three of them for breakfast, hard-boiled.

I had one poached, with cheese grits. Yum. :-)

If this passes (not that I'm holding my breath) it will be the single greatest human rights triumph so far.

I don't want to live in a society where everyone minds their own box and no one stands up for the weak and helpless, whether they are babies, dogs, plants, the environment etc. I remember Tom Delay making the argument that companies and individuals should have the right to dump toxic chemicals on their own private property. I don't want my neighbor minding his own box like that.

We have to defend humans, critters, the water, the air etc. from guardians or owners who don't care about them. And no, I don't think dogs or water should get to vote.

Certainly within our own borders, we should as a civil society defend those who can't defend themselves.

Science has already demonstrated that life begins at conception. There is nothing to believe or not believe.
I guess that makes it an inconvenient truth.

Sally,
Quote of the Day! I'm impressed!

Ray, bein' a Yankee, I sure like the southern regional food, and two motels ago had a big warmer or "steam tray" of grits, and salt, pepper and butter, or cheese, or jelly or syrup for them.

I hit it pretty hard.

I've never had grits!
Everyone is raving about grits!

I'm going to the store to get me some...
(Grits, that is)
I wanna know ehat the hell you are all raving about, and that they've raved about on Top Chef and The Colbert Report!
GRITS...

They are raving about carbs. You know, a moment on the lips...

...sinks ships.

...forever on the hips.

Hi Bobby,
Congratulations to you and your wife! I look back so fondly of those sleepless nights. They are some of the greatest memories my husband and I cherish. Take full advantage of your mother-in-law's assistance. They can be the calm amidst the flurry.

Hey folks,

Can we try THIS? Is your spouse your best friend? Is sex and friendship related to each other? How about sex and love? Is love as intense outside of sex? Is it possible that sexual love is the only kind we know and therefore is the only one of importance?

Have you ever been loved (please note: I did NOT say 'had sex')?

These are just a bunch of questions .... just curious of the answers.

Take care of your own box, and you won't need abortion.

Posted by: heather at November 16, 2007 12:51 PM
LOL
High five Heather! That is an all-time doosey.
Good Humor.

Are we PL'ers not making a huge mistake ... are we trying to force others to love? Why do we go on endlessly about sex.ed when we desire love.ed?

You know, a moment on the lips...
...sinks ships.
...forever on the hips.

anybody want a peanut?

Anybody want a bottle of Caro syrup?

John, yes, have been loved. My wife really is my best friend. Some of my co-workers aren't too bad, but my wife's still on top there.

There are definitely other kinds of love than sexual.

I think that while love can be as intense without sex being part of it, for couples it usually makes it more intense. Or if not more intense then deeper, different, with greater scope to it. Six days from now will make eleven years since I "met" my wife-to-be online, and we're still changing.

And - though you didn't ask it - I'd say that sex can be as intense without love, even more intense, but it's almost surely going to be a shorter-term thing, and not at all related to any long-term relationship.

Sex and friendship may be related to each other, often are, but it doesn't have to be that way. My opinion is that for women it's more related, less for men.

Doug

P.S. Love ya, man.

AB Laura: Please, PC'ers, tell me why an e/z/f is not considered life, when an amoeba and other one-celled organisms are.

Laura, like that the unborn certainly are life, but there are other definitions and concepts for the word too.

And hey - what is a "C. G. guy"?

Doug

Anybody want a bottle of Caro syrup?

Inconcievable!

MK, I used to swig out of one, in the dim and distant past. Now, it'd be a nice bottle of extra-virgin olive oil. Hat-tip to Jacqueline heh heh heh.

Doug,

I'm thinkin' we're on two different planets here...

I'm playin' Vizzini and you're curing constipation?
And you're blamin' Jacquie? Or just lending her your hat?

FEZZIK, are there rocks ahead?

FEZZIK

If there are, we'll all be dead.

VIZZINI

No more rhymes now, I mean it.

FEZZIK

Anybody want a peanut?

Doug said, "Laura, like that the unborn certainly are life, but there are other definitions and concepts for the word too."

But I'm talking about one-celled organisms being considered "life"...if a fetus definately has more than one cell, and it is human, why is it that PC'ers do not consider human life when science and scientific studies are their basis for most arguments re: life?

BTW, it's just CG... and abbreviation for two words of what I thought maybe you were. I know a couple...very few in this world....but based on the intelligence of your comments & agnostic "beliefs", I thought that you, too fell into this category. It's "certified genius".

Said the Old Obadiah

To the Young Obadiah,

"I am dry, Obadiah,

"I am dry!"

Said the Young Obadiah To the Old Obadiah,

"So am I, Obadiah,

"So am I!"

MK, hope your food-poisoning is over and done with. I had it twice, both in 1995, Burger King then a chinese buffet place. Nasty.... Feel it coming on then it reaches a peak of 5 or 6 hours of real agony, way too bad to sleep, stomach feeling like a viscous ball being beaten unmercifully, then it eases off but you still feel truly crappy until about 24 hours overall has passed - my experience.

It's "certified genius".

Ha! Thank you Laura, but no. I have a really good memory and can type fast, that's about it.

There were a couple kids in college who I thought were geniuses, but even there I'm not sure. I remember one of them, trying to help me with something, saying, "Damn, man, you think so slow!"

Ouch, but compared to him, in that subject anyway, it was true.

For what it's worth, I think real genius is knowing how to be happy. Sounds quite simple, but there is a ton that can go into it.
......

But I'm talking about one-celled organisms being considered "life"...if a fetus definately has more than one cell, and it is human, why is it that PC'ers do not consider human life when science and scientific studies are their basis for most arguments re: life?

I think you're coming up against different definitions and expressions. If anybody says the unborn in this argument are not "human" and not "alive" then they are wrong. Yet, what constitutes "a life" is open to some interpretation.

Not that I agree with all pro-choicers about it, but many people see more there than merely having human DNA, being an organism, having metabolism, etc.

Doug

Thanks Doug!

Brian said here http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/11/nrlc_endorses_f.html

"Abortion laws belong in the hands of the states. Making a constitutional amendment banning all abortions would just take us to the other end of an already broken spectrum."

Your thinking is GODLESS and COMPLETELY VILE Brian!!!!!!!!!!

NO LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT HAS THE RIGHT TO LEGALIZE THE MURDER OF INNOCENT BABIES!!

That you think that legalizing the murder of the innocent is something that "belongs in the hands of the states" demonstrates without any ambiguity that your view of government is GODLESS and that you give the US Constitution (or more accurately a certain philosophy of applying the US Constitution) MORE AUTHORITY then you do the absolute command from God You shall not murder.

Okay guys, here's a Thanksgiving joke that my three year old told me today. You can make everyone giggle at the dinner table.

What does a turkey say?..................................................................................................................................................

Okay guys, here's a Thanksgiving joke that my three year old told me today. You can make everyone giggle at the dinner table.

What does a turkey say?..................................................................................................................................................

Posted by: Kristen at November 16, 2007 7:05 PM

Gobble, gobble, eat chicken!

Okay, you had to see her in her turkey hat running around the house to really appreciate that one, but still...

Hahaha, that's adorable!

@Doug,

a big part of our present morass is: far too many feel that the future does not encompass substantial improvement but actual demise. So here is something quite different: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/10/tech/main3246430.shtml

read the article and view the video ... very different applications of the same device.

John, my quick take is that the energy required to break the hydrogen lose so it can burn will be greater than what the burning gives. I could see something like nuclear power being used to supply the initial energy, though.

As far as "far too many" people feeling the future is "bad," at least relatively so, I'm not sure. There are always people wringing their hands about something.

Doug

What weighs 8 lbs. and won't get plucked this Thanksgiving?

-- John Denver's guitar.

Sally,
Quote of the Day! I'm impressed!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 16, 2007 3:35 PM

...........................................

Thank you, thank you everyone. Oh please stop! Blush. I'd like to thank my orthodondist, my manicurist, my yoga instructor, my personal trainer and my bartender. @@
Does this mean you are all coming over to help me move?

You know, a moment on the lips...
...sinks ships.
...forever on the hips.

anybody want a peanut?

Posted by: mk at November 16, 2007 4:57 PM
...........................................

No thanks. I have a bag of sunflower seeds. Want some?

Hey folks,

Can we try THIS? Is your spouse your best friend?
........................................................

Both of my exes were my best friends at the time. Now my SO is

Is sex and friendship related to each other?
.........................................................
Not necessarily.

How about sex and love?
........................................

Not necessarily.

Is love as intense outside of sex?
....................................

Intense? Like obsessiveness?

Is it possible that sexual love is the only kind we know and therefore is the only one of importance?
.................................................................

Like if I don't have sex with dear friends I can't love them?

Have you ever been loved (please note: I did NOT say 'had sex')?
........................................................

Shouldn't the question be: have you ever fetlted loved?

These are just a bunch of questions .... just curious of the answers.

Posted by: John McDonell at November 16, 2007 4:40 PM

"Anybody want a bottle of Caro syrup?"
Mmmm...pecan pie. YUM.

Zeke, according to you, we can still murder and it's okay. As long as we call it capital punishment.

What weighs 8 lbs. and won't get plucked this Thanksgiving?

-- John Denver's guitar.

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2007 8:31 PM

That was bad....truly hysterical, but BAD!!!

PIP,
I will agree with you in regards to capital punishment. Murder is murder...

Aww Laura! We agree! *hugs*

Doug wrote,

I think you're coming up against different definitions and expressions. If anybody says the unborn in this argument are not "human" and not "alive" then they are wrong. Yet, what constitutes "a life" is open to some interpretation.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Huh? definitions and expressions do not create reality.

The physical world exists independent of human thought.

Life isn't what you say it is. It is what it is.

If humans didn't have language to describe reality or life, we would still be alive. You can't redefine nature with verbal expression.

You can use a math formula to describe a natural phenomenon, but if you change the formula, it doesn't change the phenomenon. The formula no longer describes a natural phenomenon.

What constitutes "a life" is not open to interpretation. It can be, and has been scientifically quantified. It is not subjective.

Humans don't define reality. Reality defines us.

PIP,
Hugs right back at you!!!

Anon,
Thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself (really, I couldn't!)

I think those with an agenda (ie, abortion) need to qualify it within by using word play. I am a firm believer in "just black and white...no shades of gray." Good/evil, truth/lie, life/death, etc.

Does this mean you are all coming over to help me move?

Posted by: Sally at November 16, 2007 8:44 PM

Are you finally moving over to the PL side, Sally? But of course...I'll help you move....we all will!! :)

John said: Is your spouse your best friend? Is sex and friendship related to each other? How about sex and love? Is love as intense outside of sex? Is it possible that sexual love is the only kind we know and therefore is the only one of importance?

Ok. So, I'm not married, but I'll substitute in my significant other in for spouse (I can't think of him as my boyfriend for some reason--it sort of seems like a childish label to me--no offense intended).

Yes, he is absolutely my best friend and I am his.

Sex and friendship are not forcibly related to each other. If we never had sex, we would still be friends. In fact, he is a long way away from me so we haven't had sex in quite a while, and we are still best friends.

Same answer for love.

Love is as intense outside of sex to me. Sex is just a part of it--a part I rather enjoy and am not willing to forgo until marriage. However, I find that sex is not as intense outside of love.

No, sexual love is not the only kind we know. I'm not quite sure what "sexual love" is. Do you mean lust and infatuation? Because that ain't love!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=113960&title=this-week-in-god&tag=generic_tag_stephen_colbert&itemId=104330

It's my turn to be slightly offensive to the catholics :)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=120316&title=the-colbert-report-preview&tag=generic_tag_stephen_colbert&itemId=104330

memory lane.

PIP,
I'm not catholic, but it definately had blasphemy written all over it. Like I said in an earlier post, Judgement Day will be a hoot!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=127325&title=the-colbert-report&tag=generic_tag_stephen_colbert&itemId=104330

I'm having a ball here.

Does this mean you are all coming over to help me move?

Posted by: Sally at November 16, 2007 8:44 PM

Are you finally moving over to the PL side, Sally? But of course...I'll help you move....we all will!! :)

Posted by: AB Laura at November 16, 2007 10:54 PM
........................

Wishful thinking there Laura! Come on buy anytime! I've got a great new kitchen to work in and will whip you all up some New Mex cuisine!

Sally,
One can only dream....

LOL Laura you got that right

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=108395&title=prince-charles-scandal&tag=generic_tag_stephen_colbert&itemId=104330

Laura,

One of my VERY FAVORITE bits

Sally,
One can only dream....

Posted by: AB Laura at November 16, 2007 11:21 PM
...............................

I hope that you have more imortant dreams than persuading others to your way of thinking.
My dream is to have an acre of land to raise flowers to sell at market. Perhaps hire women from the abuse shelter to come and help me. Any one else have a dream?

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3710060&affil=wjla

This is colbert actually trying to do real news (very short career)

PIP,
That last one was TOO funny...I think I woke my neighbors up when I L'dMAO during the banana bit...Thanks for the laugh!

lol! It's definately a classic moment.

Laura there will be so much more to come. I am doing a research paper over him and because researching is so much fun I'm being very meticulous. I don't mind sharing the love.

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/41980/detail/

teeheehee

I'm not trying to persuade others to do anything...that would be a pure waste of my time. I'm new to this whole PL thing. I live a couple of blocks away from the Aurora PP...never really thought about this stuff much until this happened. I never realized how contraversial this issue really was, and I find it fascinating how both PC'ers and PL'ers can disagree among themselves. I'm also learning how Christian can not only vary in their religious practices, but also their beliefs.

I am learning so much here, and, like I said, am truly fascinated by it. I'm also learning more about me at the same time!

Your dream about flowers is lovely...if I'm ever abused & sheltered, I'll come help you prune the roses!!! I enjoy removing thorns!

PIP,
A paper on Colbert or Daly (Daly's hot!) But in a really wierd way...so is Colbert!

As far as dreams...I really don't have one...I just kindof have my mind set on my Eternal life (after death or rapture!)...now that is something to look forward to!

-Just lollygagging around here on Earth following the lead of my Lord!

Here's what I learned about myself lately:

I am Pro-Life &
I am also, Pro-Choice

Let me explain…

I am pro-life because I truly, without a doubt, believe in God, my Creator…the Giver of Life. I cannot be a believer in God without being pro-life.

I am pro-choice because I truly, without a doubt, believe that God, my Creator, the Giver of Life, gave man a free-will…to allow man to make choices throughout his/her life…

However, I am Anti-abortion, because I truly, without a doubt, believe in God, my Creator….the Giver of Life…that He…and only He can JUSTLY begin and end one…..

Life is a series of choices that we make, sometimes second by second. Each one is a choice, and each one a test. Each choice will lead us down an unexpected turn in our paths, and what choices we made, how and what we learned from them is what keeps us “trekking down the path of life”.

And I believe that God, my Creator, the Giver of Life, who gave man a free will, is the only One who can JUSTLY judge us for our choices.

I may not understand other’s choices, and I may not accept them…however, I do not judge them for them either…I do, however, pray that they will find God, the Creator, the Giver of Life, who gives them a free-will, to walk with them or carry them, down their path of life.

I'm not trying to persuade others to do anything...that would be a pure waste of my time. I'm new to this whole PL thing. I live a couple of blocks away from the Aurora PP...never really thought about this stuff much until this happened. I never realized how contraversial this issue really was, and I find it fascinating how both PC'ers and PL'ers can disagree among themselves. I'm also learning how Christian can not only vary in their religious practices, but also their beliefs.

I am learning so much here, and, like I said, am truly fascinated by it. I'm also learning more about me at the same time!

Your dream about flowers is lovely...if I'm ever abused & sheltered, I'll come help you prune the roses!!! I enjoy removing thorns!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 16, 2007 11:40 PM
................................................................

I like the thorns left on my roses. Beauty doesn't come without pain.

I spent some time in Aurora as a teen. Aunt M and late Uncle D were Salvation Army officers there. Nice suburb at the time. I remember an elderly lady that used to walk by the corps at the same time every day. She thought that the trees were hurling abuse at her and would stop at each and every tree and beat it with her umbrella. I've always wondered where she lived. I'm sure that the fine folks of Aurora wouldn't allow a mental health facility in the community. She had to be passing through.
People in need belonged to the inner city and the south side where it was ok for do gooders to take care of them. Out of sight, out of mind.

It's a sad city to live in...I can't wait to get out of here!

On Colbert! He has had such a cultural impact especially in these recent days that I thought it would be a fascinating paper.

And I'm kind of in love with him.

As far as dreams...I really don't have one...I just kindof have my mind set on my Eternal life (after death or rapture!)...now that is something to look forward to!

-Just lollygagging around here on Earth following the lead of my Lord!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 16, 2007 11:46 PM
........................................................

I don't think that lollygagging will get you to your heaven. Unless your heaven consists of more lollygagging I guess.
I find it sad that you find your death more rewarding than your life.

And I'm kind of in love with him.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 17, 2007 12:21 AM

you don't say.....I'd never be able to tell!
Good taste, though!

A confusing thing I learned today. Catholics are anti-abortion, okay that is a given. But what do private Catholic high schools do with girls that are pregnant?

Kick them out. If that doesn't encourage abortion I don't know what does.

Sally,
I agree..lollygagging won't get me to Heaven..me accepting Jesus' sacrifice, however, does.

"I find it sad that you find your death more rewarding than your life."
No, my Eternal Life more than my Earthly one...I won't die...

lol.

He's a handsome guy. There is something so adorable about him that I just oogle at him every time I watch him. He's even sexier in person!

When & where did you meet him?? DETAILS...I NEED DETAILS!!!

2 instances:

1. I was visiting a friend at Knox and got a chance to see his speech. This isn't a meeting but hey, we were pretty close, and he walked right by me.

2. I went to New York this last summer, and we planned it like our dream trip (this included tickets to the Daily Show, Colbert Report, and Conan O'Brien). We got early to Colbert and got front row seats, in front of his desk, between two cameras. At one point I waved to him and he took a double take in my direction and motioned at me to stop biting my nails. Another time we were mouthing a song during commercial break and he started singing along with us. We stayed outside after the show to wait for him and I asked if he could autograph my Knox program. He thanked us for coming and all that.

Yeah. More obsessed than ever.

PIP,
Very cool! You are definately star-struck! Souds like a good time!

It was. Very good times. I also got to see Curtains and Chicago on broadway--and Donald Trump was in the audience of Curtains, lol. We saw the most random people. Like Al Sharpton?

I like traveling though. I want to visit Seattle, Chicago, and St. Paul sometime within the next year.

Sally,
I agree..lollygagging won't get me to Heaven..me accepting Jesus' sacrifice, however, does.

"I find it sad that you find your death more rewarding than your life."
No, my Eternal Life more than my Earthly one...I won't die...

Posted by: AB Laura at November 17, 2007 12:29 AM
........................................................................

Yikes! My former faith would say that you are a lackard looking to get into heaven on the coat tails of Jesus. You aren't afraid of dying. You are afraid of living. IMO. Religiosity has run it's course. No longer usefull and no longer relevant. As the family genealogist.......kinda a sad passing.

Sally,
What on earth is a "lackard"? I looked it up, but can't find it!

BTW...What former faith were you? The only way to get to Heaven IS through Jesus. Yes, I'm not afraid of dying, but NO...I am not AFRAID of living...I am simply saying that my sights are not set here on this earth...they are set on my Eternal life. That is what I live for.

Hey folks,

the questions I posed above, were not about seeking any sort of 'right' answer. They were meant to assist you in thinking about some very important things. At least, I think this area is extremely important to me ... and from the answers - important, to you as well!

A fella I know (about Doug's age) complained that he was ill-prepared for life's most important job: raising kids. Have to agree with him on that one! We (males) likely have the feeble notion that sex.ed somehow substitutes for loving. It is not even close!

When a young teen, I was fascinated by my older brother's ability to absolutely enthrall younger children ... @4 y/o. For hours on-end he would sit the child on his lap and they would talk & talk ... lots of giggling too! There is little doubt that my brother is rather rare ... 'tis too bad! His 'trick' was to celebrate the preciousness of human life.

All these years later .... and the memory still moves me. Perhaps the sheer joy of birth (like Gianna's) will not only etch in our memory, but such events will act as pivot-points to develop into fuller human beings.

What on earth is a "lackard"? I looked it up, but can't find it!

maybe it is "laggard"

Judgement Day will be a hoot!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 16, 2007 11:13 PM

It won't be a hoot for me. I'll be praying to the end for their change of heart. I am grateful for those who prayed for me to turn around.

As the state the began the abortion holocaust,
it is fitting and proper that Colorado attempt
to lead the nation back to legal protection of
all innocent human life, from fertilization.

The amendment doesn't address bc or in vitro.

Any so called "spare" embryos could go to Snowflake Embryo
Adoption program, www.snowflakes.org

@PiP: If you make it up to St. Paul we must hang out! Seriously! :)

I reeeeeally hope Colbert and the Daily Show come to Minneapolis/St. Paul for the Republican National Convention next year, it would be soooo darned entertaining if they did!

Rae-

I TOTALLY agree! When is the RNC anyway?

btw if you haven't already you NEED to watch that clip when he is actually trying to be a legitimate newscaster. It is SO weird!

Anon...yes, thanks. I think that "laggard" is what Sally meant.

Anonymous: Huh? definitions and expressions do not create reality. The physical world exists independent of human thought.

True, as I've said many times, physical reality is one thing, and the subjective stuff in the abortion argument are another.
......

Life isn't what you say it is. It is what it is.

Sure, but there are still concepts like what many perceive, i.e. the "full human life" that includes sentience and/or independence and/or etc. "Life" or not isn't really the argument but there interpretations that involve greater complexities and more being imputed to terms that just that.

I don't necessarily agree with them, either, but they do play a part.
......

If humans didn't have language to describe reality or life, we would still be alive. You can't redefine nature with verbal expression. You can use a math formula to describe a natural phenomenon, but if you change the formula, it doesn't change the phenomenon. The formula no longer describes a natural phenomenon.

Yeah, and no argument, as above.
......

What constitutes "a life" is not open to interpretation. It can be, and has been scientifically quantified. It is not subjective. Humans don't define reality. Reality defines us.

Reality is that we do have concepts like personhood, and the same often is applied to "a life." I agree that the unborn in this argument are alive, human, organisms, etc., all along, but often there is more under consideration than merely "alive or not."

Doug

he was ill-prepared for life's most important job: raising kids. Have to agree with him on that one! We (males) likely have the feeble notion that sex.ed somehow substitutes for loving. It is not even close!

John, agreed - while some few guys may be "born parents" it takes most a lot of learning.

@PiP: I did watch that. Mmmmm, you are most correct, he is quite the looker (funny ears and all :-p). It was really strange though. Didn't he start as a weatherman in South Carolina?

Didn't the National Right to Life interfere with South Dakota's attempt to make abortion illegal? I was really upset at them for that. I don't trust them anymore and I wonder if they'll do the same thing in Colorado.

And, whoever it was that complained about hypocrisy, everyone is a hypocrite. People with high standards are bigger hypocrites than people with low standards but I don't think that everyone should reduce their standards to avoid being a hypocrite. The higher your standards are, the harder it is to reach them but, most likely, the better off you'll be than if you had low standards or none at all.

Hmm. I don't think he did, but it may be one of those little-known facts. I only have read that he did the abc stint and found out that "real news producers weren't as nice as fake news producers...but they are funnier."

but often there is more under consideration than merely "alive or not."

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 17, 2007 11:27 AM

"more under consideration"?

Yeah, like what someone has to gain from his death.

"more under consideration"?

Yeah, like what someone has to gain from his death.

Of course that is a consideration, but no, that's not what we were talking about.

prettyinpink blasphemed God and accused God and me of condoning "murder" by saying:

"Zeke, according to you, we can still murder and it's okay. As long as we call it capital punishment."

You mean according to God aka Jesus Christ, don't you? And according to the Apostle Paul and the author of Hebrews and the Apostle John. You include them in your blasphemy as well since they all promoted the death penalty for capital criminals.

MATTHEW 15:3-9
He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] a gift [to God" -- ] 6 'then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with [their] lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.' " [Cf. Mark 7:6-13] --Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is referencing Himself where He gave this command in Exodus 21:17 and here He is clearly upholding that command and criticizing those Jews who don't follow it.

Do you reject Christianity now because according to you Jesus Christ, who is God, promoted murder in commanding that men bring about justice by executing other men for specific crimes?

HEBREWS 10:28-29
Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

MOSES LAW = THE LAW THAT JESUS CHRIST GAVE TO MOSES

ACTS 25:11
"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar."

ROMANS 13:3-4
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to [execute] wrath on him who practices evil.

1 TIMOTHY 1:8-11
BUT WE KNOW THAT THE LAW [IS] GOOD IF ONE USES IT LAWFULLY, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

NUMBERS 35:31-33
'Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death... So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.'

REVELATION 13:10
...he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And of course, here is where God INSTITUTED capital punishment for the entire world to obey and be carried out by men. Not by Him. By men. That's exactly what it says.

GENESIS 9:6
"WHOEVER SHEDS MAN'S BLOOD, BY MAN HIS BLOOD SHALL BE SHED; FOR IN THE IMAGE OF GOD HE MADE MAN.

If you are Catholic prettyinpink then you have committed a MORTAL SIN by calling God a murderer since He commanded that capital criminals be executed and made it clear that there is no other acceptable just punishment for those crimes.

If you want to hold to your belief that God and I are promoting murder when we promote justice through advocating the execution of capital criminals then here is your chance to renounce Christianity and tell the world that the Christian God is evil and that you are a pagan or hold to some other belief that you believe is "superior" to the vengeful, justice-seeking doctrine promoted by the God of the bible in the Old and New Testaments.

Or you can apologize to me and admit that you were wrong to accuse God and myself of condoning murder through the promotion of the just punishment of execution for those who commit capital crimes.

Which is it gonna be?

"Which is it gonna be?"

How about neither. Maybe we just ignore you for awhile and hope you turn it up a notch or two.

@Zeke: Pretty sure PiP isn't Catholic, or Christian for that matter.

@Hal: I hope Zeke sticks around, he/she/it does a pretty good job of making a himself/herself/itself look astoundingly...bad.

Hey Rae, if you have an intelligent argument you'd like to bring to me to respond to then go ahead.

Your completely subjective opinions are worth jack squat. If you think quoting God in Genesis 9 or quoting God in Matthew 15 makes me look bad then what does that say about you?

If right-to-lifers in Colorado want to ban abortion, why don't they just run a ballot measure saying abortion is banned? Why the deception of saying it's about "fertilized eggs being persons"?

Could it be that they know an honestly-phrased measure wouldn't have a chance of passing?

I agree that Zeke is an asset for the pro-choice side.

Why, SoMG? Because he/she reiterates that not only are you pro-choice, but anti-God?

@Zeke: Nah, the ad hom attacks on people who disagree with you pretty much make my point, I don't need to make an "intelligent argument" against you or your "beliefs", your words pretty much make my argument for me.

Your opinions are just as subjective as mine as they are based on a completely subjective interpretation of the Bible as the Bible has been interpreted in dozens if not hundreds of way and your particular interpretation may or may NOT be entirely true. But you can go ahead and keep thinking yours is true and continue berating and insulting people, further driving them from "salvation". You do your cause real, real well. Bravo.

I will say this and only this. And like zeke I will use LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS.

"If you are Catholic prettyinpink then you have committed a MORTAL SIN by calling God a murderer since He commanded that capital criminals be executed and made it clear that there is no other acceptable just punishment for those crimes."

If I were Catholic (which I'm not), I would absolutely be justified in saying that capital punishment is wrong (and MURDER), because the Church SAYS THAT IT IS WRONG according to their doctrine.

At the biblical age the death penalty was justified because there were no other means to truly protect society. We have all the means at our disposal to practice justice without murder. Now CP is definitely MURDER because there is simply no need for it.

So remember that CONTEXT is a very good thing to have when you are proof-texting.

If you WANT to know more about it go RESEARCH it and what the CATHOLIC CHURCH says about IT.

LOL Rae, her and the other extremists on the pro-life camp will soon be even less important as america becomes more pro-life. Even pro-choicers can pick the real deal from the extremists on our side, and their side as well.

Also, I like to imagine those people still demanding the death penalty for drunks and those that talk back to their parents.

The capital punishment of Paul Hill was justified.

Zeke, as the old saying goes:

"Nobody is better at quoting Scripture than the Devil himself."

The 34 year incarceration of former abortionist Brian Finkel is not enough. Hopefully the old buzzard will not live long enough to get out.

I love to hear stories about inmates who despise child killers.

Could it be that they know an honestly-phrased measure wouldn't have a chance of passing?

Posted by: SoMG at November 18, 2007 12:03 AM

Honestly phrased attempts to legalize abortion in Ireland have failed, but they keep putting them on the ballot and the public keeps rejecting them.

Honestly phrased attempts to legalize abortion in Ireland have failed, but they keep putting them on the ballot and the public keeps rejecting them.

How about Vatican City?

Paul Hill killed a killer... FORMER abortionist Brian Finkel killed thousands of innocent children. One has been executed. The other has not been. That isn't fair. I think that Finkel should be executed.

I'm sure that the fine folks of Aurora wouldn't allow a mental health facility in the community. She had to be passing through.
People in need belonged to the inner city and the south side where it was ok for do gooders to take care of them. Out of sight, out of mind.

Posted by: Sally at November 17, 2007 12:13 AM

Actually there is a very good mental health hospital in Aurora (Mercyville) and another in Naperville affiliated with Edwards Hospital. Sweeping generalizations never work Sally. Although I don't know where you got that generalization, because as far as I know only very small communities don't have MHH.

Kristen,

Good point. I know any number of small towns in my home state of Michigan that had MHHs and other types of long term facilities for the mentally ill. The city of Detroit had a huge complex called Eloise that was a city in itself, literally, and that was only one of the facilities. I live in an average size midwestern city now and we've had a county MHH for years which also is a long term care facility, as well as numerous clinics and MHHs and drug treatment facilities. We're very grateful for all of them.
You're certainly correct about not making generalizations!

Rae claimed:

"Your opinions are just as subjective as mine as they are based on a completely subjective interpretation of the Bible as the Bible has been interpreted in dozens if not hundreds of way and your particular interpretation may or may NOT be entirely true."

How many interpretations has this one passage been given? I've only seen one interpretation over the years since it is so clear and impossible to twist.

Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

Look at that. Our executing convicted murderers and bringing about justice is tied up with our being made in God's image.

Zeke,

no need to post twice. I can see your other two posts earlier, and your two ad hominem comments in the above posts were enough.

As I said before, RESEARCH recent Vatican documents. Complaining gets you nowhere.

I don't support going back to life like it was lived in Jesus' time. Therefore, I don't support proof-texting. Please leave me alone, because all you do is attack people and then ask them to respond to content. I don't tolerate it, so I will be ignoring any post you have addressed to me from now on.

Sally,
What on earth is a "lackard"? I looked it up, but can't find it!

BTW...What former faith were you? The only way to get to Heaven IS through Jesus. Yes, I'm not afraid of dying, but NO...I am not AFRAID of living...I am simply saying that my sights are not set here on this earth...they are set on my Eternal life. That is what I live for.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 17, 2007 7:48 AM
...........................

That would be a cross between a slacker and a type of shellac.
Obviously! @@
I was raised in the Salvation Army. Mom's parents were former Mennonites. Grandma attended seminary and was an officer which would have made her a minister if she had been a he. Aunt M and Uncle D were officers too. Uncle D and Aunt E were Methodist missionaries. Uncle D has a masters in education and a bach in theology. You wouldn't like them. They have attempted to live life as Jesus did. No health insurance and no retirement they are dependent upon the kindness of others/social welfare for their most urgent needs.

'm sure that the fine folks of Aurora wouldn't allow a mental health facility in the community. She had to be passing through.
People in need belonged to the inner city and the south side where it was ok for do gooders to take care of them. Out of sight, out of mind.

Posted by: Sally at November 17, 2007 12:13 AM

Actually there is a very good mental health hospital in Aurora (Mercyville) and another in Naperville affiliated with Edwards Hospital. Sweeping generalizations never work Sally. Although I don't know where you got that generalization, because as far as I know only very small communities don't have MHH.

Posted by: Kristen at November 19, 2007 8:09 AM
.......................................................

Naperville is not Aurora and please give me the link to the Mercyville web site. If it's good, it's got a web site. From what I've found it was a sanitarium run by nuns.

Sally said, "I was raised in the Salvation Army. Mom's parents were former Mennonites. Grandma attended seminary and was an officer which would have made her a minister if she had been a he. Aunt M and Uncle D were officers too. Uncle D and Aunt E were Methodist missionaries. Uncle D has a masters in education and a bach in theology. You wouldn't like them. They have attempted to live life as Jesus did. No health insurance and no retirement they are dependent upon the kindness of others/social welfare for their most urgent needs."

Oh, on the contrary! I LOVE elderly people!!! They always have such wonderful stories to tell and memories to share!! Did they choose not to have health insurance? I don't know alot about Medicare/Medicaid, but they can't get that?
Anyway, I guess if you believe in Karma, they are getting their's now...I mean, being on the giving end of good will, and now on the receiving end. Maybe they're a bit like me...not too concerned about what goes on here compared to Eternity with Jesus! Of course, I don't know them, but they do sound OK to me!