Please...

My entire life - and according to my mother HER entire life - people have matched current events to Biblical prophecy regarding the end of the planet.
It makes you look, well, a little unbalanced.

Eat something chocolate and buy the 5-year bulbs anyway. Relax. There's stffing and gravy in the fridge.

The horses had heads like lions. Fire, smoke, and sulfur came out of their mouths. These three plagues - the fire, smoke, and sulfur which came out of their mouths - killed one-third of humanity. ~ Revelation 9:13-18
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Apparently they've limited their wrath to Malibu.

Laura, you're absolutely right. There may be no dots here to connect. I don't claim to know the mind of God. I just quoted Scripture, numbers, and map facts.

I do admit all this is compelling to me. However, even the Apostle Paul thought Jesus' return was eminent in his lifetime.

But at some point, specific events of world history have always and will always line up with the future foretold in Scripture.

At any rate, Scripture says that even when the day comes and 1/3 of the world population is killed, some still won't believe. So I'm sorry to say I anticipated my simple words on a page would make no impression on you.

I just love Halley!!! Is this is the same Halley I'm thinking of, the one who writes "Halley's Bible Handbook"? It's really good reading because it ties in actual historical events, artifacts and the history of the people who lived during the times denoted in the Bible.

One very iteresting thing that I have learned regarding the sixth angel, is with the Euphrates River. The Tower of Babel took place on this river where all pagan religions began. It is also the "religious" dividing line between east & west...East=predominantly pagan & idolatry, and West+Judaism, Mohammedism & Christian. The Euphrates is like a religious boundary line between these religions.

China has a population of over 1 billion people, and already brags about having 2.8 million soldiers now. (Five years ago, right around 2 million) http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9905/28/china.military/
With other oriental nations "jumping in" as this vast army heads west towards the Euphrates, I can see why so many people will die...they are ruthless!
Jill, I find your link to where they are getting this vast amount of soldiers from very fascinating. I never really put too much thought into where they would get so many soldiers before.
"The people who survived these plagues still did not turn to me and change the way they were thinking and acting. If they had, they would have stopped worshiping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see, hear, or walk."
This type of idol worship is very unique to the Orient - ALL areas of the east are still practicing idolatry.

Laura said, "My entire life - and according to my mother HER entire life - people have matched current events to Biblical prophecy regarding the end of the planet."

Isn't that pretty cool how decisively accurate Bible prophecy is!

Winston Churchill, "this may not be the end, or the beginning of the end. But it is certainly the end of the beginning."

ABL, interesting information on the Euphrates. Yes, I'm speaking of Halley's Bible Handbook. Yes, I love it, too, particularly his points on archeology. And yes, no matter what our speculations, every day does bring us one day closer.

One in four Americans believe Christ will come back in their lifetime. (The Associated Press, 1997) Depending on the politics of the time, that number changes over the years, but people keep dying. No Jesus.

In 1997, 2000 years from Jesus' supposed birth had passed. No sign of Jesus.

I started reading Left Behind a few years ago and was first fascinated, then appalled, then sickened...

Turns out predicting the end of the world is a whole hell of a lot like being a psychic. You just keep making a stab in the dark until something clicks and then you run with it.

I think if Jesus did come back, he probably came back a long time ago and he's long gone now.

Luke 21:20 (NIV),
"when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the countury not enter the city. For this is the time of punishmennt in fulfillment of all that has been written.

jumping to verse 32-33: "I tell you the truth, THIS GENERATION (what generation? this one...the one that sees these things )will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"

Edyt,
Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies for years..it's desolation, without dispute from anyone at this place in time, IS near.

We are certainly (at least in my opinion) in the generation of this time. We have been since Israel became a state in 1948. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but how long, or how many relatives can be alive within a generation here on earth...grandfather, father, son, grandson? A span of what, approx. 75 yrs?...Israel became a state shortly after my father was born. Although people may come and go (born and die) within that generation, THAT GENERATION will not pass until these things are fulfilled. We are still currently living within that generation.

This is why many people today feel that Jesus will come again in their lifetime.

Trust me....Jesus has not come yet! I, personally, liked the movie "Left Behind"..it does a great job of portraying end of days events. However, even it's authors disagree on the Jesus' second coming...One believes in his lifetime, and one does not. We do not know, we can only speculate, however...He is coming soon!!!

A thing that strikes one who browses around in the vast literature that has grown up about the book of Revelation is the UTTER DOGMATISM with which so many put forth their opinions, not as opinions, but in categorical statements, as to the meaning of even the most mysterious passages, as if they know all about it, and their way settles the matter. We think a spirit of reverent humility, and openness of mind, would be more becoming in those seeking to interpret a book like this....

Very well said, Jill. Objections to it as a fable in the first place aside, it's amazing to what an extent people will read what they want into it.

Doug

Apocalyptic beliefs have long been held by Christians around the world. There was a sect of Christians in the colonial or early American days that then end of the world would come during the 1700s.

Would've hated to be them when that was proven wrong...lol

It's always been a way of gaining followers ("The end is near! Repent!"), it is simply one of the most effective, aside from the sword (though I would argue those days are long gone, though one could argue in continues in the third world)

Doug,
But if you put together absolute facts (history, current events, etc.) with the book of Daniel (written approx. 605-530 B.C.), Ezekiel (written approx. 592-570 B.C.) and Revelations (written approx. 90-95 A.D.) all by different authors, and then also piece them with the prophesies (some 365 prophesies from the Bible - ALL of which have already been fulfilled), they all fit together so beautifully!
Even your skepticism or absolute denial of these things is prophesized!!!

Here's a great link..it's called "Gloom and Doom, Prophsy and Hope:
http://hallindsey.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=213&Itemid=28

and one more thing (I think :)....

Even if you don't believe in God, or the end times, or Bible prophesy...with all of the worldwide events televised each day on news channel around the world, can't you just feel it in every bone of your body that "something" is definatley brewing on a worldwide scale?

One more link,

http://hallindsey.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=184&Itemid=28

Dan,

The point of the sword has also been used to turn people to atheism.

I dont remember learning any wars started in order to convert people to Atheism, whereas the opposite is true of most major religions.

There is no forcing of Atheism onto anyone so far as I've seen.

learning = learning about

You can't help but to notice the increase in natural disasters and diseases. I think it's a definite warning.

"During this period, many men will abuse of the freedom of conscience conceded to them. It is of such men that Jude the Apostle spoke when he said: 'These men blaspheme whatever they do not understand; and they corrupt whatever they know naturally as irrational animals do... They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguements."

Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser - Seventeenth Century

In 1946, just after the end of World War II, Therese Neumann, a German stigmatic and mystic, was asked by an American GI if the United States would ever be destroyed or invaded in a war. Her answer was pointed:
*
"No, but at the end of this century America will be destroyed economically by a series of natural disasters."
*
Therese Neumann, German mystic, Twentieth Century

St. Nilus must be counted as one of the leading ascetic writers of the fifth century. His feast is kept on November 12th in the Byzantine Calendar; he is commemorated also in the Roman Martyrology on the same date. St. Nilus probably died around the year 430, as there is no evidence of his life after that.
*
Now the prophecy:
*
After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, people's minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognizable. People's appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents and elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right-hand way from the left. At that time, the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society.
*
At that future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they received in Holy Baptism and equally of remorse.

Heather- a good number of natural disasters can be blamed on minor climate change, which can have massive effects- butterfly beats its wings and what not.

Diseases? It's because they evolve. Pestilence has always been a problem. Rather than us needing to fight things like consumption, the bubonic plague, typhus, diptheria, we're now dealing with newer diseases like AIDS.

Stop using that damn antibacterial soap. You're only making it worse, you know.

I would be anonymous...

The message was approved by the Catholic Church and was published in its entirety at Lecce. France, on November 15, 1979 with the imprimatur of Bishop Zola.

The following Secret was given by Our Lady to two children, Mélanie Calvat and Maximin Giraud, on September 19, 1846, while they were tending cattle on the mountain of La Salette, France.

The Message of Our lady of La Salette:

"Mélanie, what I am going to tell you now will not always be a secret; you can publish it in 1858.

"Priests, my Son's ministers, priests, by their evil life, by their irreverences and their impiety in celebrating the holy mysteries, love of money, love of honor and pleasures, priests have become sewers of impurity. Yes, priests call forth vengeance, and vengeance is suspended over their heads. Woe to priests, and to persons consecrated to God, who by their infidelities and their evil life are crucifying my son anew! The sins of persons consecrated to God cry to heaven and call for vengeance, and now here is vengeance at their very doors, for no longer is anyone found to beg mercy and pardon for the people; there are no more generous souls, there is now no one worthy of offering the spotless Victim to the Eternal on the worlds behalf.

"God will strike in an unparalleled manner. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth! God will exhaust His anger, and no one will be able to escape so many evils at once. The heads, the leaders of the people of God, have neglected prayer and penance, and the devil has darkened their minds; they have become those wandering stars which the ancient devil will drag with his tail to destruction. God will permit the ancient serpent to sow divisions among rulers, in all societies and in all families; both physical and moral punishments will be suffered. God will abandon men to themselves and will send chastisements one after the other for over 35 years.

"Society is on the very eve of most terrible scourges and greatest events; one must expect to be governed by a rod of iron and to drink the chalice of God's wrath.

"Let not my Son's Vicar, the Sovereign Pontiff Pius IX leave Rome after the year 1859; but let him be steadfast and generous, let him do battle with the weapons of faith and love; I shall be with him.

"Let him beware of Napoleon; his heart is double, and when he will want to be both Pope and emperor at the same time, God will soon withdraw from him; he is that eagle who, desiring always to rise, will fall on the sword he wanted to use to force the peoples to exalt him.

"Italy will be punished for its ambition in wanting to shake of the yoke of the Lord of lords; thus she will be handed over to war; blood will flow on all sides; Churches will be closed or desecrated; priests, religious will be driven out; they will be put to death, and to a cruel death. Many will abandon the faith, and the number of priests and religious who will separate themselves from the true religion will be great; even Bishops will be found among these persons.

"Let the Pope beware of miracle workers, for the time has come for the most astonishing wonders to take place on the earth and in the air.

"In the year 1864 Lucifer, together with a great number of devils, will be loosed from hell; little by little they will abolish the faith, and that even in persons consecrated to God; they will so blind them, that without a special grace, these persons will take on the spirit of these evil angels; a number of religious houses will lose the faith entirely and cause many souls to be damned.

"Bad books will abound over the earth, and the spirits of darkness will everywhere spread universal relaxation in everything concerning God's service: they will have very great power over nature; there will be churches to serve these spirits. People will be transported form one place to another by these evil spirits, and even priests, because they will not have lived by the good spirit of the gospel, which is a spirit of humility, charity and zeal for the glory of God. The dead and the just will be made to rise."

[Mélanie interpolated here: "That is to say, these dead will assume the prospect of righteous souls who once lived on earth, in order to seduce men more easily; these so-called resurrected dead, who will be nothing other than the devil under these faces, will preach another Gospel contrary to that of the true Christ Jesus, denying the existence of heaven, if these be not in fact the souls of the damned. All these souls will appear joined to their bodies."]

"There will be extraordinary wonders every place because the true faith has been extinguished and false light illumines the world. Woe to the princes of the church who will be occupied only with piling up riches upon riches, with guarding their authority and lording with pride!

"My Son's Vicar will have much to suffer, because for a time the Church will be handed over to great persecutions: it will be the time of darkness; the Church will undergo a frightful crisis.

"With God's holy faith forgotten, each individual will want to direct himself and rise above his peers. Civil and ecclesiastical authority will be abolished , all order and justice will be trampled underfoot. Only murders, hatred, jealousy, lying and discord will be seen, with no love of country or family.

"The Holy Father will suffer greatly. I shall be with him till the end to receive his sacrifice.

"The wicked will make a number of attempts on his life without being able to harm him; but neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of God's Church.

"Civil governments will all have the same objective, which will be to abolish and make every religious principle disappear, to make way for materialism, atheism, spiritism and vices of all kinds.

"In the year 1865, the abomination will be seen in the holy places; in the convents the flowers of the Church will putrefy, and the devil will establish himself as king of all hearts. Let those who are at the head of religious communities be on their guard concerning the persons they are to receive, because the devil will use all his malice to introduce into religious orders persons given to sin, for disorders and love of carnal pleasures will be widespread over the whole earth.

"France, Italy, Spain and England will be at war, blood will flow in the streets; Frenchmen will fight Frenchmen, Italian with Italian; then there will be a general war which will be appalling. For some time God will no longer remember France or Italy, because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is no longer known. The wicked will unleash all their malice; even in homes there will be killing and mutual massacres.

"With the first lightning blow of His sword, the mountains and all nature will tremble with dread, because the disorders and crimes of men are piercing the vault of the heavens. Paris will be burned and Marseilles swallowed up; a number of large cities will be shattered and swallowed by earthquakes; all will seem lost; only murders will be seen, the clash of arms and blasphemies heard. The righteous will suffer greatly; their prayers, their penances and their tears will rise to heaven and all God's people will ask pardon and mercy and will ask my help and intercession. Then Jesus Christ, by an act of His justice and His great mercy toward the righteous, will command His angels to put all His enemies to death. At one blow the persecutors of the Church of Jesus Christ and all men given to sin will perish, and the earth will become like a desert.

"Then there will be peace, the reconciliation of God with men; Jesus Christ will be served, adored and glorified; charity will flourish everywhere. The new kings will be the right arm of Holy Church, which will be strong, humble, pious, poor, zealous and imitative of the virtues of Jesus Christ. The Gospel will be preached everywhere, and men will make great strides in the faith, because there will be unity among Jesus Christ's workers and men will live in the fear of God.

"This peace among men will not last long: 25 years of abundant harvests will make them forget that the sins of men are the cause of all the woes which happen on earth.

"A precursor of the Antichrist, with his troops drawn from many nations, will wage war against the true Christ, sole Savior of the world; e will shed much blood and will seek to annihilate the cult of God so as to be regarded as a god.

"The earth will be struck with plagues of all kinds;" [Mélanie added here: "Besides pestilence and famine, which will be widespread"] "there will be wars up to the last war, which will then be waged by the ten kings of the Antichrist, kings who will all have a common design and will be the sole rulers of the world. Before this happens, there will be a sort of false peace in the world; people will think only of amusing themselves; the wicked will indulge in all kinds of sin; but the children of Holy Church, children of the true faith, my true imitators, will grow in the love of God and in the virtues dearest to me. Happy the humble souls lead by the Holy Ghost! I shall battle along with them until they reach the fullness of maturity.

"Nature begs vengeance on account of men, and she shudders with dread, awaiting what must happen to the crime-stained earth.

"Tremble, earth, and you who profess to serve Jesus Christ, while interiorly you adore yourselves, tremble; for God will hand you over to His enemy, because the holy places are in a state of corruption; many convents are no longer houses of God, but pastures for Asmodeus and his own.

"It will be at this time that the Antichrist will be born of a Hebrew nun, a false virgin who will be in communication with the ancient serpent, master of impurity; his father will be a bishop (Ev.). [We spell out the word "bishop" here. In the French text appear only the first two letters of évèque, the French word for bishop, but there is little doubt that this is the word they stand for, because in Mélanie's first draft of the message the whole word is spelled out.]

"At birth he will vomit blasphemies, he will have teeth; in a word, this will be the devil incarnate; he will utter terrifying cries, he will work wonders, he will live only on impurities. He will have brothers who, although not incarnate devils like himself, will be children of evil; at the age of twelve, they will be noted for the valiant victories they will win; soon they will each be at the head of armies, assisted by legions from hell.

"The seasons will be changed, the earth will produce only bad fruits, the heavenly bodies will lose the regularity of their movements, the moon will reflect only a feeble reddish light; water and fire will lend convulsive motions to the earth's sphere, causing mountains , cities, etc., to be swallowed up.

"Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist.

"The demons of the air, together with the Antichrist, will work great wonders on the earth and in the air, and men will become ever more perverted. God will take care of His faithful servants and mend of good will; the Gospel will be preached everywhere, all peoples and all nations will have knowledge of the Truth.

"I address a pressing appeal to the earth: I call upon the true disciples of the God living and reigning in the heavens; I call upon the true imitators of Christ made man, the one true Savior of men; I call upon my children, my true devotees, those who have given themselves o me so that I may lead them to my Divine Son, those whom I bear as it were in my arms, those who have lived in my spirit; finally, I call upon the Apostles of the Latter Times, the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ who have lived in contempt of the world and of themselves, in poverty and humility, in contempt and silence, in prayer and mortification, in chastity and in union with God, in suffering, and unknown to the world. It is time for them to emerge and come enlighten the earth. Go, show yourselves to be my dear children; I am with you and in you, provided your faith is the light enlightening you in these evil times. May your zeal make your famished for the glory and honor of Jesus Christ. Do battle, children of light, you, the few who see thereby; fir the time of times, the end of ends, is at hand.

"The Church will be eclipsed, the world will be in consternation. But there are Enoch and Elias, they will preach with the power of God, and men of good will will believe in God, and many souls will be comforted; they will make great progress by virtue of the Holy Ghost and will condemn the diabolical errors of the Antichrist.

"Woe to the inhabitants of the earth. There will be bloody wars, and famines; plagues and contagious diseases; there will be frightful showers of animals; thunders which will demolish cities; earthquakes which will engulf countries; voices will be heard in the air; men will beat their heads against the walls; they will call on death, yet death will constitute their torment; blood will flow on all sides. Who could overcome, if God doesn't shorten the time of trial? At the blood, tears and prayers of the righteous, God will relent; Enoch and Elias will be put to death; pagan Rome will disappear; the fire of Heaven will fall and consume three cities; the whole universe will be struck with terror, and many will allow themselves to be seduced because they didn't adore the true Christ living in their midst. It is time; the sun is darkening; Faith alone will survive.

"The time is at hand; the abyss is opening. Here is the king of the kings of darkness. Here is the beast with its subjects, calling itself the savior of the world. In pride he will rise skyward to go up to Heaven; he will be stifled by the breath of St. Michael the Archangel. He will fall and the earth -which for three days will be in constant change- will open its fiery bosom; he will be plunged forever with all his followers into hell's eternal chasms. Then water and fire will purify the earth and consume all the works of men's pride, and everything will be renewed; God will be served and glorified."

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html

St. Senanus (6th Century):

"Falsehood will characterize that class of men who will sit in judgment to pass sentence according to law: between the father and his son, litigations will subsist. The clergy of the holy church will be addicted to pride and injustice. Women will abandon feelings of delicacy, and cohabit with men out of wedlock."

Maria Laach Monastery (16th Century):
*
"The twentieth century will bring death and destruction, apostasy from the Church, discord in families, cities and governments; it will be the century of three great wars with intervals of a few decades. They will become ever more devastating and bloody and will lay in ruins not only Germany, but finally all countries of East and West."
*
"After a terrible defeat of Germany will follow the next great war. There will be no bread for people anymore and no fodder for animals. Poisonous clouds, manufactured by human hands, will sink down and exterminate everything. The human mind will be seized by insanity."

Our Lady began appearing to seven children in the year 1981 in Kibeho, Rwanda, they are Alphonse, Anathalie, Marie Claire, Agnes, Stephanie and Vestine.
*
Our Lady showed the children of Kibeho what would happen in their country if people refused to believe and live her messages. All of the children screamed in horror as they saw in a vision, trees in flames, a river of blood flowing with corpses which had been decapitated and floating limbs of people, as Mary warned the children and the world that we were on 'the edge of catastrophe'. As the children described this horrific scene in these words, "A river of blood, people were killing each other, abandoned corpses with no one to bury them. A tree all in flames, bodies without their heads. There was crying and screaming. At different times, all seven of the Kibeho visionaries experienced this horrifying vision. They saw a river of blood that formed because people were killing each other indiscriminately. "Corpses, some without heads, were strewn everywhere and were so numerous they could not be buried" This especially saddened Agnes who saw the death of her own parents. Our lady then warned the seers to leave Rwanda, unfortunately some didn't.
*
What is known is that two of these seer's lost their lives in the killing fields that became Rwanda, where approximately over 800,000 people were brutally murdered as the U.N and the world watched, some with indifference, others with horror!
*
Marie Claire who was killed in the town of Byumba in 1994.
*
Emmanuel died while trying to escape.
*
The whereabouts of Stephanie is unknown.
*
While Anathalie, Agnes, and Alphonsine all survived the genocide that struck Rwanda in 1994.

...

I am so not touching this with a 10-foot pole.

Ok ok I know the david w that emailed you, he is on facebook, and his name is Ric Yu, someone told me he tried to use my name for this crap. The guy is a total nut and now you are one as well for quoting him.

Try reading "The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth" by Scott Hahn. Helps to sift through some of the confusion.

"shortage of 163 million Asian women due mostly to sex-prejudiced abortions."

Zzzzz...same old propaganda. But not true.
----------------------------------------SORRY, BUT----------------------------------------
TRUTH IS...

Some sex-selective abortions do occur, like anywhere. However, they have ALREADY been ILLEGAL for years now. And post-birth infantcide is rare to begin with. So, most of the slightly elevated M/F baby ratio is due to underreporting of female births and a higher prevalence of Hepatitis B (which naturally increases male births) - NOT "female infantcides."----------------------------------------AND, AS FOR THE YELLOW PERIL----------------------------------------Study the history of China, ignorant Anglo woman. And you'll find out that China has never been imperialistic beyond internal conflicts and border disputes - unlike your great Pax Britannica hegemony. Who has military bases and colonies all over the world...and is duking it out in the Mid East right now.

And you worry about the YELLOW peril??? What about the ongoing global ANGLO one right NOW??? Idiots like you make me SICK...

If China ever does attack, it will only be because of centuries of goading and intentional baiting by Anglos and crafty Jews. Opium War & Communism, anyone?

I had a high school civics teacher who had lived in China. (His parents had been missionaries there.) He theorized that China had no need to attack the US. All they need to do is to get their collective population to all jump at the same time. The resulting tsunami would wipe us out.

Trust me....Jesus has not come yet! I, personally, liked the movie "Left Behind"..it does a great job of portraying end of days events. However, even it's authors disagree on the Jesus' second coming...One believes in his lifetime, and one does not. We do not know, we can only speculate, however...He is coming soon!!!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 24, 2007 11:41 AM
.........................................................

Christians have been saying that for 2000 years. I read the first book and found it full of inaccuracies. I wasn't fond of the LaHays when I considered myself Christian.

and one more thing (I think :)....

Even if you don't believe in God, or the end times, or Bible prophesy...with all of the worldwide events televised each day on news channel around the world, can't you just feel it in every bone of your body that "something" is definatley brewing on a worldwide scale?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 24, 2007 12:56 PM

...........................................................

No. Things have always been brewing and always will be brewing. Nothing new under the sun.

I dont remember learning any wars started in order to convert people to Atheism, whereas the opposite is true of most major religions.

There is no forcing of Atheism onto anyone so far as I've seen.

LOL!!! Dan, did they teach history in the schools you went to? The hundreds of millions of people murdered in the mid 20th century were killed by communists who were killing belivers if they didn't renounce their faith.

Sounds like a conversion to atheism at the point of a sword (kalishnikov rifle) to me.

No, we just havent really gone over Russian history.

Ive taken world cultures (i.e. essentially ancient civilizations) European History (russians come into play mainly as influencing events, no real focus on them) and U.S. History (not much goin on there either)

So it isnt lack of it in the school (there are other history courses) but the courses I chose that provided a lack of info on russian history/events.

Tony,

Being Jewish was considered less of a religious belief as much as it was genetic. Hence the term ethnic cleansing. I don't recall reading anywhere that Jews were released if they became atheists...

Interesting tidbit though: Hitler's perception of anglo-saxons as being blonde, blue-eyed, etc. is probably wrong. It's likely that the true "Anglo-saxons" actually came from areas around India, making them brown-skinned and dark-eyed.

Edyt,

A good point. I understand that Hitler sent researchers to the Himalayas to look for the "true" Aryans. A group of people, believed to be "true" Aryans lived there and their lives were so primitive that they "bathed" using steam from a kettle. I only vaguely remember these documentaries, but you may have more up to date knowledge.

I dont remember learning any wars started in order to convert people to Atheism, whereas the opposite is true of most major religions.

There is no forcing of Atheism onto anyone so far as I've seen.

LOL!!! Dan, did they teach history in the schools you went to? The hundreds of millions of people murdered in the mid 20th century were killed by communists who were killing belivers if they didn't renounce their faith.

Sounds like a conversion to atheism at the point of a sword (kalishnikov rifle) to me.
Posted by: Tony at November 24, 2007 9:39 PM
......................................

I don't recall a war on religionists by any group calling themselves atheists during the 1950's. What are you referring to Tony? I'm obviously old with a failing mind.

Oops, thanks for the correction, Mary. I forgot that it was just the "Aryan" part. Saxons came from the north.

Sally, you're back! I was getting worried about you! You were probably cooking up quite the Thanksgiving feast, I think? Anyway...hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving!!!
:)

Dan,

you wrote,

"I dont remember learning any wars started in order to convert people to Atheism, whereas the opposite is true of most major religions."

There is no forcing of Atheism onto anyone so far as I've seen.

Posted by: Dan at November 24, 2007 2:10 PM

Huh?

Russian revolution, Chinese cultural revolution etc. definitely pushed atheism and these regimes have killed and imprisoned millions.

What war has been fought to promote religion?

Let's see

Military takeover or Burma? not religion
Iraq? uh, no, not religion.
Afghan war? not religion.
Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan,Rwanda, Nigeria etc.? no, ethnic
Serbia, Kosovo? no
India vs. Pakistan? no
Six day war? no
Greek vs. Turkey? no
Russian invasion of Afghanistan? no.
Spanish Civil war?no
Italy vs. Ethiopia? no
Cuban Civil War? no
Viet Nam? no, not religion.
Nicaragua, Colombia? No
Falkland Islands? Spanish American? Mexican Revolution? no, no and no.
Korean conflict? not religion.
WWII? uh, no, not religion.
Spanish revolution? no
WW I ? definitely not religion.
Chinese conquest of Tibet? not religion.
Boxer rebellion? no
Bolshevik Revolution? not religion.
Russia vs. Japan? no, not religion.
Chile vs Bolivia and Peru was fought over fertilizer! so not religion.
Japan vs. China? no
African wars of independence? no
Boer wars? not religion.
American Civil War ? uh, no, not religion.
Crimean War? uh, no, not religion.
Napoleanic Wars? uh, no, not religion.
War of 1812? uh, no, not religion.
French Revolution? uh, no, not religion.
American Revolution? uh, no, not religion.
Spanish vs. Brits 1700's? no
Hundred years war? okay religious infighting and power grabs
Mongol invasion? uh, no, not religion.
Crusades? Kings sent annoying barons far away hopefully to die fighting. Religion as excuse not reason. Certainly weren't fighting to convert folks.
Barbarian invasions of Rome? uh, no, not religion.
Roman imperialism? uh, no, not religion.
Persian Empire? uh, no, not religion.
Punic wars? uh, no, not religion.
I could go on and on and on, but why?

Please tell a war started to convert someone to a religion.

The notion that wars are initiated to convert folks to some religion is a myth.

Tony,

Being Jewish was considered less of a religious belief as much as it was genetic. Hence the term ethnic cleansing. I don't recall reading anywhere that Jews were released if they became atheists...

Interesting tidbit though: Hitler's perception of anglo-saxons as being blonde, blue-eyed, etc. is probably wrong. It's likely that the true "Anglo-saxons" actually came from areas around India, making them brown-skinned and dark-eyed.

Posted by: Edyt at November 24, 2007 10:00 PM
..........................................

My understanding is that if you have blond/red hair and blue/green eyes you have a Viking in the wood pile. True Anglo/Saxons would have had none of such.

Sally,

The Chinese communists made every effort to destroy the religion and culture of Tibet, which were deeply intertwined, and this resulted in the decimation of hundreds of Buddhist temples, monestaries, and convents. Also, monks and nuns were imprisoned.

Anonymous.

How interesting! I am of Russian ancestry and I understand the Vikings visited Russia. So that's where my auburn hair and blue green eyes came from! OK, I have German ancestry too and I know the blue part of my eyes came from there.

Sally, you're back! I was getting worried about you! You were probably cooking up quite the Thanksgiving feast, I think? Anyway...hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving!!!
:)

Posted by: AB Laura at November 24, 2007 10:20 PM
...........................................

Happy to 'see' you too Laura! I so did cook up a storm. The new kitchen is the bomb and the kids said it was my best feast ever. Well, my kids did. The step kids are used to canned everything. Peasants. @@ I'm also finishing up moving. Holy moly I'm getting old!
I hope that your day was just exactly to your liking.
Smooch, hug...now put your fists up. : )

I'm glad things went well for you, as they did for me, also.

Sally, by now you know that I'll just turn the other cheek!

smooches & hugs right back atcha!

Sally,

The Chinese communists made every effort to destroy the religion and culture of Tibet, which were deeply intertwined, and this resulted in the decimation of hundreds of Buddhist temples, monestaries, and convents. Also, monks and nuns were imprisoned.

Posted by: Mary at November 24, 2007 10:24 PM
....................................................

The problem starts when you attempt to equate communism to atheism. These concepts have nothing to do with each other and everything to do with each other. It's quite obvious that Jesus was a communist. He lived a communistic life. Now what the H would that have to do with China? Nothing.
Moving from a feudalistic society to something else takes change. It's idiotic to believe they just needed the Christian/Pagan belief in a Jewish god evidenced by a bunch of blood thirsty Western Europeans prone to war to show them they way.
China is doing fine. They are the inventors of solutions to problems.

Any mods out there tonight?

Sally,

The fact remains that the Chinese communists made every effort to destroy Tibetan culture and religion. You asked for an example from the 1950s and I gave you one. Stalin made every effort to wipe out religion in the Soviet Union. Before his death, Stalin was planning another pogrom against Soviet Jews. Study communism and you will learn that one of it's tenets is atheism.

I think there will be massive volcanic eruptions and the earth's crust will crack with lava coming up out of the ground along fault lines, thereby sulfer and other gases will kill many people.

Anonymous.

How interesting! I am of Russian ancestry and I understand the Vikings visited Russia. So that's where my auburn hair and blue green eyes came from! OK, I have German ancestry too and I know the blue part of my eyes came from there.

Posted by: Mary at November 24, 2007 10:28 PM
..............................................................

My dad's parents were Finnish. 3/4 very Northern European and 1/4 Mongolian genetically. They left Finland when it was still part of Russia. Not 100 years yet.
Your blue eyes might come from a German ancestor, but they are not a genetic middle European marker.

Sally,

Really? Where did blue eyes come from? This is fascinating.

Sally said, "Christians have been saying that for 2000 years."

Sally, I agree, they have! But God said that certain things must take place before Jesus' second coming.

Sally said, "I read the first book and found it full of inaccuracies. I wasn't fond of the LaHays when I considered myself Christian."

Actually, they weren't the LaHays..the authors are Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins.

One question for you, and I would love an honest answer: Knowing what you did when you "were" a Christian, and what you believe now....if, one day, you were to hear on the news that millions of believers in Jesus had "simply vanished" from earth, would you consider becoming a believer again?

if, one day, you were to hear on the news that millions of believers in Jesus had "simply vanished" from earth, would you consider becoming a believer again?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nah. But I'd have a new car and some cool new bathroom fixtures and kitchen appliances.
(I have no qualms about post-rapture looting.)

Hey! They got their trip to Heaven and I got a new espresso machine. It's a win-win!

Laura practiced looting in NOLA. It was natural for Laura to loot since it affirms her what goes around comes around law of the Kosmos.
Katrina was just a espresso warm up for Laura to practice more looting after any war or disaster, within the USA.
Rumor has it, Laura flew into Tabasco state last week and found easy pickings amongst those inhabitants of Tabasco.
After being caught in NOLA looting the citizens of NOLA, she proudly expressed it was her right to loot from being a believer in post rapture looting.
When told it was not a rapture, but a hurricane, by the police, Laura said that hurricanes were mentioned in the rapture story and assumed that the rapture had come to NOLA.
That's her story and she's sticking to it. Upon which the judge asked her if she had ever done magic mushrooms and ate Mexican cactus known as peyote.
To which Laura replied, Aw shucks judge, are you flirting?

yllas, 1:36am

Whew! That Laura is a real whirlwind.

Laura,

If what yllas says is correct, you have been one busy lady!

Edyt, 11:02a, said: "One in four Americans believe Christ will come back in their lifetime. (The Associated Press, 1997) Depending on the politics of the time, that number changes over the years, but people keep dying. No Jesus."

To be clear, I'm not saying these events will happen in my lifetime.

One other point of interest, however. When the first redeemer Moses came, it was accompanied by a mass extermination of babies. When the second redeemer Jesus came, it was accompanied by a mass extermination of babies.

Satan knows Scripture better than you or I. As he anticipates Jesus' eminent 2nd return, could he not have provoked the greatest mass extermination of babies, indeed humans, ever?

This would tie in with my hypothesis on this post.

Jill,
Again, very interesting!

Jill,

Please excuse my ignorance. What was the mass extermination you refer to where Moses was concerned?

Laura,

If what yllas says is correct, you have been one busy lady!

Posted by: Mary at November 25, 2007 7:59 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You don't know the half of it!

I've spent all morning making Yllas a holiday goose stuffed with Clozapine!

Mary, Exodus 1:

8 Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power in Egypt. 9 "Look," he said to his people, "the Israelites have become much too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country."...

15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live....

22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."...

Exodus 2

1 Now a man of the house of Levi married a Levite woman, 2 and she became pregnant and gave birth to a son. When she saw that he was a fine child, she hid him for three months. 3 But when she could hide him no longer, she got a papyrus basket for him and coated it with tar and pitch. Then she placed the child in it and put it among the reeds along the bank of the Nile....

5 Then Pharaoh's daughter went down to the Nile to bathe, and her attendants were walking along the river bank. She saw the basket among the reeds and sent her slave girl to get it. 6 She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. "This is one of the Hebrew babies," she said....

10 She named him Moses, saying, "I drew him out of the water."

Thanks to Mary, I just thought of something I'd never considered before. When Moses and Jesus were born, the babies killed were boys. This time more of the focus is on girls. Have no idea what that means, but again, it's interesting to me.

Jill,
I have no idea what it could mean, either, but it definately coincides with your original thought regarding the need for "military males".

Jill,

Thank you. I should have remembered Moses in the Nile.

No, we just havent really gone over Russian history.

Ive taken world cultures (i.e. essentially ancient civilizations) European History (russians come into play mainly as influencing events, no real focus on them) and U.S. History (not much goin on there either)

So it isnt lack of it in the school (there are other history courses) but the courses I chose that provided a lack of info on russian history/events.

Posted by: Dan at November 24, 2007 9:47 PM

On the point of no wars being on account of Atheism...

Dan, are you kidding me? What about the Christian martyrs? Were the Romans trying to convert them back to Judaism? Come on...

Laura, 9:12am

Is that all? I thought at very least you'd be hang gliding off of Mt.Everest, but I'm sure you've done that several times this week already.

Kristen,

I may be wrong but its been my understanding that Christians were viewed as a troublesome cult and a threat to Rome. I think it had something to do with refusing to acknowledge the emperor as divine and giving him their loyalty. I'm sure someone on this blog has considerably more knowledge than me on this subject, but that is what I've understood to be the case.

Sally,

Really? Where did blue eyes come from? This is fascinating.

Posted by: Mary at November 24, 2007 11:13 PM
.......................................

According to some anthropology books I've read, blue eyes are a Northern European/Scandinavian trait. Someone else here might know more about this. Those Vikings sure did get around!

Sally said, "Christians have been saying that for 2000 years."

Sally, I agree, they have! But God said that certain things must take place before Jesus' second coming.

Sally said, "I read the first book and found it full of inaccuracies. I wasn't fond of the LaHays when I considered myself Christian."

Actually, they weren't the LaHays..the authors are Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins.

One question for you, and I would love an honest answer: Knowing what you did when you "were" a Christian, and what you believe now....if, one day, you were to hear on the news that millions of believers in Jesus had "simply vanished" from earth, would you consider becoming a believer again?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 12:01 AM
.....................................................

I'm well aware that Beverly was not an author of the series. Her writings are much worse. IMO of course.
As for your question: No. Never believed in end times prophecy. Grandma believed that making predictions was no different than soothsaying. A big no no for Christians. Grandma found Revelations out of sync with the New Testament and therefore dismissed it as not to be taken literally. I can think of nothing to be accomplished by dwelling on someone's fantasy of future events.

Jill,
I have no idea what it could mean, either, but it definately coincides with your original thought regarding the need for "military males".

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 9:52 AM
..................................................................

Well sure. No men, no army. Also no property owners. Women weren't allowed to hold property. An effective way of destroying a patriarchal society is to kill of the patriarchs. One of the problems of an inequitable society. Neither society finds value in females.

Sally,

Indeed the Vikings made the rounds. My Russian grandmother and aunt were both red haired and green eyed and given the blue eyes on the German side of my family, I'm certain some of my ancestors kept a few Vikings in the woodpile.
I read an account about the Vikings in Greenland. They lived there a while and then there was some climate change resulting in more severe and longer winters. The Vikings wouldn't lower themselves to ask the Greenland natives, who I believe were Eskimos, how to survive in such severe weather. They were, after all, "inferiors". Trouble was, those "inferiors" were very skilled and knowledgable in winter survival. The Vikings died out, the natives thrived.
Talk about letting your ego get in the way!

Sally,

By the way, thank you for the feedback. It is much appreciated.

Laura, 9:12am

Is that all? I thought at very least you'd be hang gliding off of Mt.Everest, but I'm sure you've done that several times this week already.

Posted by: Mary at November 25, 2007 11:40 AM
......................................

Oh Mary! That is so last week! Do keep up. This week it's bungie cord jumping at the Grand Canyon. Or is it sky diving from the moon Laura?

No, we just havent really gone over Russian history.

Ive taken world cultures (i.e. essentially ancient civilizations) European History (russians come into play mainly as influencing events, no real focus on them) and U.S. History (not much goin on there either)

So it isnt lack of it in the school (there are other history courses) but the courses I chose that provided a lack of info on russian history/events.

Posted by: Dan at November 24, 2007 9:47 PM

On the point of no wars being on account of Atheism...

Dan, are you kidding me? What about the Christian martyrs? Were the Romans trying to convert them back to Judaism? Come on...

Posted by: Kristen at November 25, 2007 11:37 AM
.......................................

Are you suggesting that the Romans of the period were Athiests? Communists?

Sally,
Thanks for your response.

Sally,

Indeed the Vikings made the rounds. My Russian grandmother and aunt were both red haired and green eyed and given the blue eyes on the German side of my family, I'm certain some of my ancestors kept a few Vikings in the woodpile.
I read an account about the Vikings in Greenland. They lived there a while and then there was some climate change resulting in more severe and longer winters. The Vikings wouldn't lower themselves to ask the Greenland natives, who I believe were Eskimos, how to survive in such severe weather. They were, after all, "inferiors". Trouble was, those "inferiors" were very skilled and knowledgable in winter survival. The Vikings died out, the natives thrived.
Talk about letting your ego get in the way!
Posted by: Mary at November 25, 2007 12:45 PM
...............................................................

Another interesting note, the Finnish language belongs to the same family as that of the Inuit (sp?)
Actually, from what I've read, the Vikings were quite adaptable to other cultures and were easily absorbed into them. There were no natives living on Greenland at the time of Viking settlement. Apparently it was about 1100 before the Inuit came to Greenland. It seems the Inuit were not interested in friendly relations with the Vikings let alone sharing hunting land or waters. Another thing that occurs to me is the Inuit diet. While apparently Inuits can eat blubber with no ill health effects, such a diet would eventually kill most Northern Europeans.
One theory on the disapearance of the Vikings from Greenland was the increasing tithes demanded by the church and dwindling resources to meet them. No one knows if they evacuated, were killed off by the Inuit, pirates, starved to death, killed off by the plague etc....
Interesting stuff!

With all respect to everyone's religious beliefs I would just like to make the following observation.
Was it Plato who first spoke of the civilization of Atlantis? I'm sure Atlantis existed, and I'm just as certain it was destroyed by some natural calamity.
I do not for a minute believe the theories I have heard expressed that its inhabitants were superhuman, space aliens, endowed with supernatural powers, or that they were scattered all over the world after the catastrophe and built great civilizations.
How much time and effort has been put into finding this lost civilization and still is? Prophets have "foreseen" it arising from the ocean, people claim to commune with and channel its long dead inhabitants(who speak impeccable English), and others claim to be reincarnations of long dead Atlanteans, I believe actress Shirley McLaine is one such person, correct me if I'm wrong.
My point is that this one account of Plato has taken on a life of its own and has driven some people to the point of what would seem religious fervor, involving the supernatural,the spiritual, and prophecy. Everyone reads their own interpretation into the existence and destruction of this civilization, which I'm certain was just one of many that rose and fell.
People continue to obsess over and speculate on where to find Atlantis and people search determined to find it. People thought the German man who uncovered the ancient city Troy was loonly when he began his search, but at least he uncovered Troy. No one sees anything bizarre in this obsession over an ancient civilization that may have been nothing more than a figment of Plato's imagination.

Is the Book of Revelation treated the same way? With everyone reading their own interpretation into it and getting what they want out of it?

Again, I have only respect for everyone's religious beliefs or lack thereof. I have to wonder if the way the Book of Revelation is treated is the same way Plato's account of Atlantis has been treated. People will take an account, be it biblical or otherwise, and run wild with it.

China is doing fine. They are the inventors of solutions to problems.

Posted by: Sally at November 24, 2007 10:46 PM

It is hard to say how China is doing because their media is so controlled and censored. Their solutions for their problems are not innovative. We have seen forced labor, descrimination and despotism throughout the ages. The initiatives of Mao created the worst famine in world history. The WSJ recently commented that their restrictions on investments could cause a market collapse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119482119290189432.html?mod=bolcrnews
I am not an expert, but China has big problems and their government is cruel and oppressive which is why so many leave and come here. Our folks on welfare are better off than their middle class. We have friends in China and from China who can tell you, it is no party over there.

Sally,

Thank you for the clarification. The account I wrote of was either on the Discovery or History
channel and as you pointed out, may well have just been one theory among many. Likely the Inuit and Vikings viewed each other with equal contempt.

Hey AB Laura,

all this forecasting of cateclismic events doesn't mean very much spiritually either. Obtaining heaven does not mean ascending to some place' where God is in charge. Heaven is but another word for God's presenc. We 'get there' not by dying but falling in love with God so much so that time, and space and events mean little. Picture the bliss of your children multiplied 1000 times.

heaven is walking with God again in His-garden/paradise (as Adam once didand being awed by such a privilege!

Sally,

The Chinese communists made every effort to destroy the religion and culture of Tibet, which were deeply intertwined, and this resulted in the decimation of hundreds of Buddhist temples, monestaries, and convents. Also, monks and nuns were imprisoned.

Posted by: Mary at November 24, 2007 10:24 PM
.................................................

Tony stated hundreds of millions dead due to religious conversion as if atheism was a religion rather than a lack of one. China wishes to control Tibet. Stripping away their culture is a method of doing just that. This doesn't fit in with Tony's assertions.

Sally,
Thanks for your response.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 1:19 PM
..................................

No problem!

Sally,

By the way, thank you for the feedback. It is much appreciated.

Posted by: Mary at November 25, 2007 12:46 PM
............................

Anything to avoid more unpacking today! ; )

John,
I most certainly do not know exactly what Heaven will be like, but I do know what God said about it being beyond our comprehension. So, I'm not going to even try to create my own "picture" of what Heaven will be like..I can't.
I must disagree with how you think we get there, though. There is only one way: Not by "falling in love with God so much so that time, and space and events mean little", but by believing that Jesus died for our sins, was buried & rose again! That's it...nothing else.

I agree with you, though, that in Heaven, we will be in God's presence, as I also believe that "hell" is the absence of God's presence.

I don't know what you mean, though, by "all this forecasting of cateclismic events doesn't mean very much spiritually either." (sorry...I did try, though!)

Sally,

Thank you for the clarification. The account I wrote of was either on the Discovery or History
channel and as you pointed out, may well have just been one theory among many. Likely the Inuit and Vikings viewed each other with equal contempt.

Posted by: Mary at November 25, 2007 2:01 PM
....................................

It is all speculation I know. I pulled this up the other day after watching a show about this subject on either History or Discovery. You might be interested. http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

Sally,

The Chinese communists attempted to destroy Tibetan religion and did so on a mass scale by destroying temples, convents, and monestaries.
I don't know how many Tibetans died in the process. Joe Stalin did the same in Soviet Russia, and as I said planned another Jewish pogrom just prior to his death. I think Tony meant that hundreds of millions died having atheism forced on them by the outlawing and destruction of religious belief and practice.

Sally,

Very interesting, thank you. It seems a combination of all the theories. An excellent and informative article.

Hey AB Laura,

all this forecasting of cateclismic events doesn't mean very much spiritually either. Obtaining heaven does not mean ascending to some 'place' where God is in charge. Heaven is but another word for God's presence. We 'get there' not by dying but falling in love with God so much so that time, and space and events mean little. Picture the bliss of just being around your children multiplied 1000 times.

heaven is walking with God again in His-garden/paradise (as Adam once did) and being awed by such a privilege! The gospel accounts (esp. Luke) has Jesus born about when He was the age of 6 yrs. Mary's mistake .... in a world with no tv nor newspaper, earthly rulers' lives and deaths didn't matter too much, especially when she was so near God.

Like Mary, we too are called to focus so much on Jesus that we are freed of fear of events and of people.

Wars fought over religion? I'm surprised not one jumped to your mind.

Espescially since you know, Christianity and Muslims fought during the Crusades (multiple wars, not just the ones often thought of). Not only was it over land, but the Christian army wanted to be rid of the Muslims, simply because they had control of Jerusalem. In fact, the Muslims treated those who practiced other religions in much higher regard than other civilizations.

Then theres the religious wars that occured in France between the Catholics and Protestants.

the Thirty Years War, once again between protestants and catholics.

The Saxon wars were also religious in nature, killing those who practiced pagan religions, esp if they had been said to have converted.

Also multiple conflicts the Ottoman Empire engaged in were considered ghaza, similar to a jihad.

The battle against the barbary pirates was viewed as a jihad by some, though that is debatable on the side of the US (who declared itself a state independent of religion in the peace treaty)

and there are more. Religion caused MAJOR conflicts in Europe, and right here in the U.S. Irish were discriminated against for being Catholic, often they were called papists, granted various immigrant groups were discriminated against, but that one did involve religion.

Religion doesnt just cause physical conflict that can lead to war, but social divides that may lead to the same, or may express itself in other ways, such as discrimination, or hate groups.

Sally,

The Chinese communists attempted to destroy Tibetan religion and did so on a mass scale by destroying temples, convents, and monestaries.
I don't know how many Tibetans died in the process. Joe Stalin did the same in Soviet Russia, and as I said planned another Jewish pogrom just prior to his death. I think Tony meant that hundreds of millions died having atheism forced on them by the outlawing and destruction of religious belief and practice.

Posted by: Mary at November 25, 2007 2:25 PM
...............................

One cannot be forced to abandon their religious beliefs. One cannot be forced to become atheist. Buildings can be destroyed but not beliefs.

John,
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Sounds like a great "focus point" to me!!!

Hey Laura,

you said: "by believing that Jesus died for our sins, was buried & rose again! That's it...nothing else"

this is based on what St Paul said but it can be interpreted poorly ... and lead to some silly practices. For example, what is the fate of those who lived before Jesus; or the people who were born into cultures that have never even heard of Jeus; or, in the world of fertility, he humans who have died even before any belief was possible?

Every action of Jesus was to demonstrate God's immense love for us, and His rising also meant His acceptance of us (our return home). Lazarus too was raised from the dead. Are Jesus' arising and Lazarus' rising the same?

John,

Those who lived before Jesus lived under the Law. Those who lived (or live) after Jesus' resurrection live under Grace. Can't mix Law & Grace.

Jesus ascended into heaven, and Lazarus was raised form the dead by Jesus back to earth. So, no, I do not feel that these two are related. I believe that Jesus raised Lazarus to show his friends His power over death.

As for babies, children, and people living in remote places that never have heard the Gospel, well, I have to believe that God is fair and just. God will take care of that in a fair, and just manner. I'll admit I cannot comprehend it.

China is doing fine. They are the inventors of solutions to problems.

Posted by: Sally at November 24, 2007 10:46 PM

It is hard to say how China is doing because their media is so controlled and censored. Their solutions for their problems are not innovative. We have seen forced labor, descrimination and despotism throughout the ages. The initiatives of Mao created the worst famine in world history. The WSJ recently commented that their restrictions on investments could cause a market collapse. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119482119290189432.html?mod=bolcrnews
I am not an expert, but China has big problems and their government is cruel and oppressive which is why so many leave and come here. Our folks on welfare are better off than their middle class. We have friends in China and from China who can tell you, it is no party over there.

Posted by: hippie at November 25, 2007 1:59 PM
................................................................

China's government was cruel and oppressive when it was still a feudal society which wasn't very long ago. Comparing an ancient society such as China to a country in relative infancy such as the US is impossible.
My ex Civics teacher who's parents were missionaries in China, knew Mao and admired what he wanted to accomplish for his people. Apparently, they found his philosophy a great deal more Christian than the previous rulers of China.
And yes, I suppose that encouraging the peasants to rise up would cause financial hardship. Much like the hardship experience of southern plantation owners losing their slave labor.

Hey Laura,

you're doing fine. Try to find your own words to help you understand what Sts John and Paul spent years and years contemplating. St John calls us 'God's adopted children' and in another place: 'God is love.' Both are very, very few words, but their meaning immense.

You will find out that living-according-to-the-law means only pre-Christian Jews ... and in that world they were a very tiny minority in these centuries. Many had never even knew that such a people ever existed ... and such goes for Jesus, then and now!

The story of Lazarus is one of Jesus' teachings. He did a weird thing here. Jesus told the people there 'to unbind him, and let him go free!' Huh? ... What puny effort could ever match raising someone from the dead? Jesus does not, never has asked for BIG STUFF... just small stuff, but important: 'unbind him' ... carry-your-baby-to-term ... let him/her live!

How do you arrive at you must gestate from 'unbind him' John?

And who are you to say that gestation is a small thing? It's obviously a big enough thing for you to demand that it be done.

John,
I guess regarding those who have not heard and those that were not under the Law, (I do know that the Law was only for the Nation of Israel) the one verse that comes to mind is this:
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, and Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

So, yes I believe people that have not heard or were not under the Law will still be held accountable.

And, wow! I never really read the words "unbind him and let him go free" I just read them & didn't put much thought into them. But now that you point it out, it was like it was "no big deal". If I were Martha, I would have stood there like, Huh???? Or I would have passed out..one of the two!

Sally,
It really fascinates me that you take such authoritative positions on so many issues worldwide...but curious as to why you are not interested at all in what the Creator of the world has to say about any of it?

Anybody seen Doug...I've got a new line of thought for him...

mk,
I looked under my chair, in the closet, upstairs, under the rug...nope! I haven't seen him!
:)

Sally,
It really fascinates me that you take such authoritative positions on so many issues worldwide...but curious as to why you are not interested at all in what the Creator of the world has to say about any of it?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 6:06 PM
.................................................

Laura, I find it odd that you find me authoritative. And flattered beyond belief that anyone finds anything about me fascinating. Being older and having better insurance/I mean perhaps more knowledge on a subject is not necessarily authoritative on my part. It is interesting that you perceive me that way.

Now, why would I be in need of belief in some sort of creator or what people believe this creator might have to say about anything? What and whom would it serve? The religion industry perhaps?
I appreciate your thoughts and respect your beliefs. I only ask the same of you and thank you for the opportunity of discussion and mutual consideration.

Hi MK, have a wee thought too, for Doug. It is strange that no matter, how much Doug may feel cornered by our assertions, he keeps right on with his own as if we had not said anything ... eg. we said that a government 'recognizes' rights, the government does not distribute rights. Over and over Doug asserts(falsely) that governments distribute rights. Doug also says that all rights are operant only at birth but a developing, living human has no human rights except if satient.

Perhaps, we need a lawyer or history teacher schooled in US-constitution to be a foil or reference point ... kinda the way Mary is concerning things medical. I hate going round and round.

Sally,
If I offended you with that question, I am truly sorry....I was just saying that I was curious. And, based on your last two sentences, I assume the questions preceding them were rhetorical!

And yes, I do find your posts fascinating. Most people tend to know about a few subjects very well. You, on the other hand, have vast knowledge in many, and sound authoritative (Encarta: convincing, reliable, backed by evidence, and showing deep knowledge) in your responses. And, for that, I find you fascinating!

JUST ACCEPT THE COMPLIMENT, PLEASE!!!

Dan,

You wrote that wars were started to convert folks.

I said no and gave a long list of examples of economically based conflicts.

Then you wrote:

Religion doesnt just cause physical conflict that can lead to war, but social divides that may lead to the same, or may express itself in other ways, such as discrimination, or hate groups.

Posted by: Dan at November 25, 2007 2:46 PM

Dan, you are discounting the social and economic forces and stating that since folks have religious differences, therefore religion is the problem. It is not religion that is causing the physical conflict. It is economics, or social divides, as you put it. The Nazis hated Jews and tried to exterminate them, but that is not why they invaded France, Poland, Belgium, Holland etc. They wanted to expand and gain an economic benefit. Money was the reason, not religion.

The Barbary pirates engaged in extortion against anyone not just ships from Europe or the US.

All the "religious" wars you cited were about the power to tax. Nobles got to keep the money if they were protestant, but had to share with the Rome if catholic.

I am not sure about the Saxons, but the Vikings loved to raid christian sites for loot, that's right economic tangibles not because they wanted folks to worship Thor.

The Ottomans were just expanding their empire for economic gain. Sure they brought their religion, they also brought art and language, but no one is blaming art or language for the wars.

Religion is a red herring in the discussion of wars. Just because people of different religions fight doesn't make religion the basis for the fight. Very very few conflicts have anything to do with religion and virttu

John,
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Sounds like a great "focus point" to me!!!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 3:04 PM
...................................................

Sounds like a Mafia Don to me.

How do you arrive at you must gestate from 'unbind him' John?

And who are you to say that gestation is a small thing? It's obviously a big enough thing for you to demand that it be done.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 5:13 PM

********************

Hi Sally,

it is at the very core of the human enterprise to be free. Jesus brings Lazarus to life, and so now we must do our human part to unbind him so that he can be free.

It seems that you and some others find pregnancy an incredible hardship so rather than setting the little living one free, by advocating abortion you work for his/her demise. Its very much like taking a shotgun blast to Lazarus' brain & saying "Now, fix THAT!"

It is my opinion that life is an awesome gift and it is extremely difficult to put all these elements together. God works on maintaining life. A PC supports the path of destruction as a option.

Sally,
If I offended you with that question, I am truly sorry....I was just saying that I was curious. And, based on your last two sentences, I assume the questions preceding them were rhetorical!

And yes, I do find your posts fascinating. Most people tend to know about a few subjects very well. You, on the other hand, have vast knowledge in many, and sound authoritative (Encarta: convincing, reliable, backed by evidence, and showing deep knowledge) in your responses. And, for that, I find you fascinating!

JUST ACCEPT THE COMPLIMENT, PLEASE!!!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 7:24 PM
..........................................................

Thank you very much Laura. I will unwrap the compliment like the beautifully wrapped present it is to me. Very slowly and with deep appreciation for your thoughtfulness.

How do you arrive at you must gestate from 'unbind him' John?

And who are you to say that gestation is a small thing? It's obviously a big enough thing for you to demand that it be done.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 5:13 PM

********************

Hi Sally,

it is at the very core of the human enterprise to be free. Jesus brings Lazarus to life, and so now we must do our human part to unbind him so that he can be free.

It seems that you and some others find pregnancy an incredible hardship so rather than setting the little living one free, by advocating abortion you work for his/her demise. Its very much like taking a shotgun blast to Lazarus' brain & saying "Now, fix THAT!"

It is my opinion that life is an awesome gift and it is extremely difficult to put all these elements together. God works on maintaining life. A PC supports the path of destruction as a option.

Posted by: John McDonell at November 25, 2007 7:51 PM
....................................

John, your opening argument does not support your closing on any level.

John, your opening argument does not support your closing on any level.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 8:17 PM

...............

Sorry Sally ....

did not realize that for you freedom in essence means a matter of choosing ... but such IMO is but a small part of the meaning of freedom. Can I ask you why flying/soaring-like an-eagle has always been associated with 'freedom' ... where is the choosing here? And soldiers die to-preserve-your-freedom ... is this freedom more than your ability to choose?

Got into this once before ... does 'freedom' lie in the ability to choose; or, in what is chosen? So being told 'no' is not an expression of repression. Just like being told to 'not run a red light' does not mean our freedom is blocked.

Laura, are you the folie imposee who influenced Doug and Sally into a folie trois?
I bet it began as a folie a dieu, between you and Doug, and brought Sally into your delusional Law of Laura, which made it folie a trois.
Being a autotheist Laura, is really nothing more then autolatry.
Do you still think your Cleopatra, Laura from a past life?
Strange, Sally thinks she was Cleopatra too.

Well Hippie,

While religion may be a red herring, without it, it is quite probable that the wars would not happen, because the foot soldiers wouldn't be willing to fight, or at least not so readily.

Crusades offered Christian heaven as a reward; the current Islamic jihadists sweeten the pot for suicide bombers with heaven + 40 virgins.

Without the red herring of religion, the real reasons (economics, political power, land) would be exposed, and subject to judgement on their own merits. So, religion is a dangerous-to-humanity subterfuge, at the least.

John, your opening argument does not support your closing on any level.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 8:17 PM

...............

Sorry Sally ....

did not realize that for you freedom in essence means a matter of choosing ... but such IMO is but a small part of the meaning of freedom. Can I ask you why flying/soaring-like an-eagle has always been associated with 'freedom' ... where is the choosing here? And soldiers die to-preserve-your-freedom ... is this freedom more than your ability to choose?

Got into this once before ... does 'freedom' lie in the ability to choose; or, in what is chosen? So being told 'no' is not an expression of repression. Just like being told to 'not run a red light' does not mean our freedom is blocked.

Posted by: John McDonell at November 25, 2007 9:10 PM
.................

John,
You make no sense. Freedom is a matter of choice. Your need to punish those that choose freedom is your problem.

Laura, are you the folie imposee who influenced Doug and Sally into a folie trois?
I bet it began as a folie a dieu, between you and Doug, and brought Sally into your delusional Law of Laura, which made it folie a trois.
Being a autotheist Laura, is really nothing more then autolatry.
Do you still think your Cleopatra, Laura from a past life?
Strange, Sally thinks she was Cleopatra too.

Posted by: yllas at November 25, 2007 11:18 PM
.........................
Sally is Freydis. Run wimpy boy run. I can give birth and take a man's head off moments after. You have a problem with that?

Did you really have a choice in the matter of having sex become a death experience Sally?
According to your family history which you have written about Sad Eyed Sally, your grandmother(?)had no choice in the matter of having a baby in the womb turn into dead tissue.
And yourself, Sally, have experienced a dead baby inside you too. Which needed to be removed by means other then your willpower.
So Sad Eyed Sally, you actually have had no freedom in choosing one baby in the womb which became dead tissue, and have become a victim of sexual acts becoming death acts.
One must conclude Sally, that what you crave is others joining you in the misery of your life where sex acts becomes acts which produce death.
Now, if you willed the death of a baby in the womb, which is induced abortion, I have not remembered you stating that act of yours Sad Eyed Sally.
If you have had a induced abortion from your will to murder the satisfaction of a man, Sally, one can also understand your being for the decision/choice of others murdering a tiny human being from the truism, that misery loves company.
Now, Sad Eyed Sally, if having a sex act become death is not a misery, sorrow, or a sadness where you hide within that wound a sneer towards life, one can understand your sympathy for the devil too.
But, if you have no sorrow, no sadness for sex becoming death, well Sally, your PTSD is the least of your problems in life.
Every post of yours, Sad Eyed Sally is a education to the others of what becomes of those who suffer misery, or no emotions, or a perverse happiness of sex is a death act.
And Sally, sex is a death act according to your own proud words written here.
You do not have to subject others Sally, "to the disadvantage or consequences resulting from a action or condition(penalty)" of yours Sally, which was deathsex, and resulted in your being "subject to a penalty for a offense, sin, or fault(punish)" which reduced your human ability to understand that "what came around for you" Sally, does not need "to go around" to others.
That you Sally, should not punish others for your punishment and penalty of experiencing death from sex, by offering the choice to join you in your personal punishment of deathsex.
That you Sally, more then anyone here, should deny death and renounce spreading deathsex to others as a choice.
Because Sally, not everyone needs your cure for deathsex is more deathsex. That you are a model,paradigm, of folie a deux, between you and a dead baby, and does not need to be shared with others, in a folie a plusieurs.

I agree with those above and those in your column that say that nobody really understands Revelation to the point of prediction. They have been predicting the end times since Jesus' death- and using verses about natural disasters or national tragedies as proof.

Also, prophecies are not always clear. I don't think it will happen exactly like scripture, which is why I don't like the left behind series. In that respect I'm not a literalist.

PIP,
Actually, it WILL happen exactly according to scripture. However, not all of what we are saying is happening now necessarily matches what the scriptures are describing. Earthquakes are getting more frequent and stronger, but it may be another 100 years before they get even more frequent and more strong.
Travel to & fro has increased since the invention of the airplanes, and communication has also increased due to the internet & satellite T.V. However, is this the increased communication & travel the scriptures were speaking of? No one knows for sure. It is pure speculation on our part, but Jesus said to "watch for these things"...that's what I believe people are doing!

After Jesus' resurrection, He did say He will be coming again soon. What is soon to Jesus and what is soon to us may be two different things. 1 day is like 1,000 years to God.
However, we do need to be prepared...it could be an hour from now, a week from now, or maybe 1,000 years from now...we don't know. But He IS coming soon!

Sally,

John,
You make no sense. Freedom is a matter of choice. Your need to punish those that choose freedom is your problem.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 11:57 PM

-------------

while my thought are unusual, they are likely more accurate re. the meaning of freedom than yours. Case-in-point: every law has an attached control (or restriction) attached to it, so breaking any law and getting caught means what? In CHOOSING to break the law does a person become more free? Are murderers freer humans than us regular folk? They chose to kill another.

Thought scenario: someone chooses to kill Sally. In doing so they choose to ignore all your rights and all your desires. It is as if 'you' did not matter; your activity impinged on your murderer's own activity (his/her justification). And furthermore, you were not very popular and your murderer was a billionaire like Bill Gates. What is Sally's protection?

Isn't this the very scenario PC and abortion-minded women/men place a developing human? De-humanize the being: by calling this a living human without human rights; calling this a fetus rather than a child; 3) its living and its human but non-sentient .... and there are some who ignore the developing human altogether and say that "we're only ending pregnancy, its too bad that a being dies in the process" - but she/he MUST die.

You'll probably call me some names, but I purposely used this scenario because it will soon apply to you, when someone requests your euthanasia. Every single abortion denies human rights.... will this denial become so common that having 'rights' gives no protection at all. ... after all Sally's kids want her dead to get the insurance money.

Sally,

I realize you cannot destroy a faith, but that did nothing to stop the Chinese communists and Stalin from making every effort to make it as difficult and dangerous as possible to practice a faith.

The blue eyes/blond hair of the north was mainly a product of evolution,as I learned in biology and anthropology. For example, it aided the northerners to get vitamin D so as not to get rickets. People who lived closer to the equator got plenty, and darker skin aided protection from the sun so as not to get skin cancer.

"Actually, it WILL happen exactly according to scripture."
Says who?

"But He IS coming soon!"
But he also said that it will be a time that nobody is expecting it, right?

"I realize you cannot destroy a faith, but that did nothing to stop the Chinese communists and Stalin from making every effort to make it as difficult and dangerous as possible to practice a faith."
Look at Falun Gong/ Falun Dafa in China right now. My roommate says that they actively campaign against it (and we outside of China know that followers are tortured, imprisoned and killed). Over there they call it the "bad religion."

AB Laura said, "Actually, it WILL happen exactly according to scripture."
Pip said, "Says who?"

-GOD did! "Blessed is he that reads," 1:3, "and they that hear, and keep the words of this book." Thus the book opens. And thus it closes (22:7). God Himself said it.

PIP "But he also said that it will be a time that nobody is expecting it, right?"

Exactly!!! I don't believe anyone said that it would be an exact time or date, they said "soon", or maybe in their lifetime...no exact time stated..I don't believe anyone is expecting it at a certain time.

"Bad Religion" is a terrible punk band, fyi. My old roomie from the dorms last year only listened to them...

"It's the end of the world as we know it...it's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fiiiiiiiine." -REM (wise words :-p)

"I don't believe anyone is expecting it at a certain time."

Last I checked, the Jehovah's Witnesses keep trying to predict the day of Armageddon...and so far they've been dead wrong each and every time. So yeah...some people DO expect it at a certain [wrong] time.

".I don't believe anyone is expecting it at a certain time."
Those trying desperately to predict it based on a dream/prophecy is certainly expecting it, I think.

""and they that hear, and keep the words of this book.""
Who put the Bible together? And who decided that this one dream, out of many, is the one? How come this prophecy and not the thousands of others?

There are many interpretations of Revelation. Some think it "predicted" the fall of Rome.

If the devil is wonderful at scripture, why would he try to fulfill it?

LOL Rae, I know! Several of my friends have the t-shirts; I never really got into them.

@PiP: *slaps head* No more Bad Religion (I have my roomate's ringtone stuck in my head now)!

I was up till 5AM watching "Heroes" this morning. I didn't bother going to bed...my eyes are quite puffy and I'm quite tired. Boo-hiss. I bet I'll fall asleep during "Heroes" tonight! Snap!

Rae- that's hilarious! I am not much of a Heroes fan, I think it's kind of cheesy. However I'm a sucker for the Law and Order marathons.

On friday there was this great SVU, and the actor who played the bad guy plays this silly guy, Sullivan, on Weeds. I can never look at him the same way again!

I MISSED THE SVU MARATHON!?!? NO! Darn "Ninja Warrior" and it's distracting awesomeness...

(though I have seen pretty much every episode of SVU ever...I can tell if I've seen an episode by watching the intros, sad 'eh?)

Isn't it weird to see actors who are normally funny do serious stuff? I remember watching an episode of Criminal Intent or something and they had Bob Saget playing a psychopath. It was gloriously bizarre.

Yup on USA all day they had SVU and CI marathon.

I saw the Bob Saget one!

Yes, it is extremely bizarre, especially when they are so good. Lol it sort of freaks me out sometimes!

However, Bob Saget isn't necessarily family humor material. Full House seems so out of character for him, I wonder what he was like on the set.

Oh, but I didn't see it on the marathon.

Have you seen the CI with Stephen Colbert?

@PiP: I heard some pretty interesting stories about Bob Saget on "Full House"...the chick who played DJ thought he was hysterical, inappropriate but funny.

I DID SEE THE CI WITH STEPHEN COLBERT! I felt so sorry for him. :( He did such an excellent job and he was such a sympathetic "baddie".

ISN'T IT AMAZING! I did feel pretty bad for his character, and he did really well. I randomly saw it on TV once and I went nuts.

Yeah, I actually saw the Colbert episode a year or two before I actually started watching the Daily Show regularly. And then once I saw the episode again after watching The Daily Show I was like:

"OH MY FRITZ!" (That previous phrase has been edited for content...lawlz).

I dare say, I'm really good at derailing threads aren't I? It's like a gift... :-p

lol me too. Speaking of Oh my "fritz" did you see that episode of TCR where he says that after he messes up the beginning?

I'm trying to find it but can't, anywhere.

I don't think so...I haven't watched the TDS or TCR in months due to the lack of cable-situation.

I sometimes wish my friend in Oregon would send me her TDS DVDs from the 2004 National Conventions, I'm dying to see the Zell Miller clip again...

*gigglefit*

LOL my favorite bit from the DVDs to date.

It's cool that clip was from long ago. it's one of my favorite character breaks, besides filliam H. Muffman!

Filliam H. Muffman? That sounds strangely familiar, I think I've seen that one.

http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=58886

"I hate going round and round."

You see, Doug, you see?

I knew I wasn't the only one getting dizzy on your valuation!

How do you arrive at you must gestate from 'unbind him' John?

And who are you to say that gestation is a small thing? It's obviously a big enough thing for you to demand that it be done.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 5:13 PM

********************

Hi Sally,

it is at the very core of the human enterprise to be free. Jesus brings Lazarus to life, and so now we must do our human part to unbind him so that he can be free.

It seems that you and some others find pregnancy an incredible hardship so rather than setting the little living one free, by advocating abortion you work for his/her demise. Its very much like taking a shotgun blast to Lazarus' brain & saying "Now, fix THAT!"

It is my opinion that life is an awesome gift and it is extremely difficult to put all these elements together. God works on maintaining life. A PC supports the path of destruction as a option.

Posted by: John McDonell at November 25, 2007 7:51 PM
..........................................................................

Abortion sets an embryo free. That it cannot live outside of the women is it's problem. Gestating sets nothing 'free'. Birth perhaps. And yes, gestation can be an incredible hardship. Life threatening even.
And I do not see life as a gift. Women create life through the process of gestation. It has nothing to do with your God.

Without the red herring of religion, the real reasons (economics, political power, land) would be exposed, and subject to judgement on their own merits. So, religion is a dangerous-to-humanity subterfuge, at the least.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 25, 2007 11:52 PM

Dude,

The real reasons are exposed and folks support them!

Christians fight Christians, Muslims fight Muslims etc, etc. all for political and economic gain. Revolutions such as ours are for political gain, not to get into heaven. If you look at the list I posted, you can't find one war that was solely religiously based. Not one, not even quasi religious ones were without a political motive. What motivated Soviets to invade Afghanistan, the promise of heaven?

Unfortunately, humans are willing to stab one another in the back for a reward right in the here and now. It is not about religion.

Sorry Sally,

but almost all abortions are done to end pregnancy, which begins a few days AFTER a human has grown from a single cell: an embryo into what is now called a fetus and this designation lasts for all 9 months of pregnancy. Over 80% of abortions are done between 7 and 11 weeks of pregnancy and although still tiny is much advanced from the single-celled embryo. To say what SoMG does is rid the body of an embryo is sloppy semantics and delusional thinking.

So, abortions are done to purposely kill fetuses. Emptying the womb/ending-a-pregnancy are NOT as primary a motive as is killing a child. If you wish to refute what I say: do so with documentation please. I am likely older than you, so your diatribes do not impress me - take that to the bank!

You go, John!!!
Well stated FACTS!

Sally,

I realize you cannot destroy a faith, but that did nothing to stop the Chinese communists and Stalin from making every effort to make it as difficult and dangerous as possible to practice a faith.

Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 10:23 AM
...........................................

Yes Mary. They learned well from religionists/Imperialists that religion can be used as a weapon. Do you not know that rulers were placed in their positions by God and given the right to rule as they see fit. Just like, oh say, the RCC back in the day?

Sally,

John,
You make no sense. Freedom is a matter of choice. Your need to punish those that choose freedom is your problem.
Posted by: Sally at November 25, 2007 11:57 PM

-------------

while my thought are unusual, they are likely more accurate re. the meaning of freedom than yours. Case-in-point: every law has an attached control (or restriction) attached to it, so breaking any law and getting caught means what? In CHOOSING to break the law does a person become more free? Are murderers freer humans than us regular folk? They chose to kill another.

Thought scenario: someone chooses to kill Sally. In doing so they choose to ignore all your rights and all your desires. It is as if 'you' did not matter; your activity impinged on your murderer's own activity (his/her justification). And furthermore, you were not very popular and your murderer was a billionaire like Bill Gates. What is Sally's protection?

Isn't this the very scenario PC and abortion-minded women/men place a developing human? De-humanize the being: by calling this a living human without human rights; calling this a fetus rather than a child; 3) its living and its human but non-sentient .... and there are some who ignore the developing human altogether and say that "we're only ending pregnancy, its too bad that a being dies in the process" - but she/he MUST die.

You'll probably call me some names, but I purposely used this scenario because it will soon apply to you, when someone requests your euthanasia. Every single abortion denies human rights.... will this denial become so common that having 'rights' gives no protection at all. ... after all Sally's kids want her dead to get the insurance money.

Posted by: John McDonell at November 26, 2007 10:22 AM
...................................................

You know John, you have interesting thoughts that you seem unable or unwilling to tie together with a common thought or line of reasoning. Work on it and someone might actually have a discussion with you.

Sorry Sally,

but almost all abortions are done to end pregnancy, which begins a few days AFTER a human has grown from a single cell: an embryo into what is now called a fetus and this designation lasts for all 9 months of pregnancy. Over 80% of abortions are done between 7 and 11 weeks of pregnancy and although still tiny is much advanced from the single-celled embryo. To say what SoMG does is rid the body of an embryo is sloppy semantics and delusional thinking.

So, abortions are done to purposely kill fetuses. Emptying the womb/ending-a-pregnancy are NOT as primary a motive as is killing a child. If you wish to refute what I say: do so with documentation please. I am likely older than you, so your diatribes do not impress me - take that to the bank!

Posted by: John McDonell at November 26, 2007 9:52 PM

...............

John, you are a mess. Manic phase?

Sally, 12:10am

The emperors of Rome and the Pharoahs of Egypt were also seen as divine and put in their positions by the gods. This was a pretty universal concept in various religions and cultures around the world.
Whatever their "reasons" the communists made every effort to wipe out religion.

So, abortions are done to purposely kill fetuses. Emptying the womb/ending-a-pregnancy are NOT as primary a motive as is killing a child. If you wish to refute what I say: do so with documentation please. I am likely older than you, so your diatribes do not impress me - take that to the bank!

Go, John!

"I hate going round and round."

Carder: You see, Doug, you see?

No - I gotta go back and see what post you are taking that from.
......

I knew I wasn't the only one getting dizzy on your valuation!

If the truth makes you dizzy....

AB Laura: Even if you don't believe in God, or the end times, or Bible prophesy...with all of the worldwide events televised each day on news channel around the world, can't you just feel it in every bone of your body that "something" is definatley brewing on a worldwide scale?

Yes, but things are always brewing. Modern communication is so much more instantaneous than in the past, but I don't see human nature as changing nor the fundamental truths of our existence.

Doug

John M: Hi MK, have a wee thought too, for Doug. It is strange that no matter, how much Doug may feel cornered by our assertions, he keeps right on with his own as if we had not said anything ... eg. we said that a government 'recognizes' rights, the government does not distribute rights. Over and over Doug asserts(falsely) that governments distribute rights. Doug also says that all rights are operant only at birth but a developing, living human has no human rights except if satient.

John, I don't feel "cornered" by your assertions. The idea of "inherent rights" appeals to you, sure, but that is not the way things really work. Rights are ideas, mental concepts,etc.

As for the rest, you're doing a bad job of pretending what I've said.
......

Perhaps, we need a lawyer or history teacher schooled in US-constitution to be a foil or reference point ... kinda the way Mary is concerning things medical. I hate going round and round.

The Constitution doesn't apply to the unborn. Nothing "round and round" about it.

Doug