Women: do the time for the abortion crime?

woman%20jail.jpgI didn't originally intend to post about Gianna Jessen, below. I just spotted her picture and was reminded of her story when looking up something Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life wrote January 28, "Will women go to jail for abortions?"

Bill Clinton has made this topic more timely than ever. Fr. Pavone has good thoughts:

Question: "When abortion becomes illegal again, are we going to start throwing all the women who have abortions into jail?"

Answer: No. The people who should go to jail in that case are the abortionists.

This particular question will be raised more and more as we to come closer to restoring protection to the unborn. The question is actually part of the well-planned public relations attack that abortion advocates always try to make on us in the pro-life movement. We are anti-woman, after all. Isn't that the only logical reason why we would oppose abortion in the first place? That's what they want the public to believe....

Yet the fact is that to be pro-life is to be pro-woman. We don't say love the baby and forget about the mother. Rather, we ask, Why can't we love them both? This is not just true when abortion is legal. It's also true when it's illegal.

The pro-life movement is not out to punish women. Our goal, instead, is to stop child-killing. What would throwing women in jail do to accomplish that goal? Their children have already died, yet the abortionist goes on killing hundreds and thousands of others. It makes far more sense to put the abortionist in jail, so that he or she can no longer kill children.

Moreover, the woman who gets an illegal abortion is the best source of information and evidence needed to convict the abortionist. If she feared prosecution, she would never admit to the abortion, which would make it harder to find the abortionist.

This doesn't excuse the woman's wrongdoing; rather, it is the same principle by which the state grants immunity to a small-time drug user in exchange for information leading to a big-time drug dealer.

This approach takes nothing away from the biological fact that abortion destroys a human life, nor from the moral fact that the life taken is of the same value as any born person. But consider how the law approaches the killing of born people. Murder is not the same as homicide, which is not the same as manslaughter. Factors of premeditation, heat of passion, ignorance, negligence, and cooperation in the action of someone else are all taken into account in order to assess as fairly as possible how much responsibility the individual actually had.

Consider these words from someone who had an abortion: "I really had no idea of what I was doing. I was completely ignorant about fetal development. I just wanted to get out of the crisis I was in." More than any other form of killing, abortion is accompanied by pressure and ignorance. If we were going to start prosecuting women, we would actually end up prosecuting more boyfriends and parents.

But in fact, we conduct a ministry of healing, not of punishment. We want to bring those who have been involved in abortions to the freedom, forgiveness, and peace of Christ. That's how we answer what will be a more and more common question.


Comments:

So say if I give myself a certain tea to drink to induce abortion will I go to jail? I know certain types of positions you can go into to kill a fetus. Will I go to jail for doing that?

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 5:13 PM


Did you read the post Jess? The entire post is about women NOT going to jail!

Posted by: mk at February 19, 2008 5:15 PM


No Jill said the abortionist should go to jail. What if a woman gives herself an abortions.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 5:23 PM


Those abortions are illegal now, Jess.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 19, 2008 5:28 PM


Ugh. Why is it so unreasonable for us to expect--even want--women who kill their babies to go to jail? Why are we discriminating against fetuses now?

Should women who kill their three year-olds go to jail? I'm guessing most pro-lifers would say yes.

Posted by: Nathan Will Sheets at February 19, 2008 5:31 PM


I love how he lifts "real words" from some faceless, nameless woman who "didn't know what she was doing." Please. Women are not that dumb, and women who go around acting like they were "victims" of "abortionists" are just playing poor poor me because they reget their choice and want to play the pity card to alliviate responsibility for their choices. I understand that some people regret bad descicions, and those feelings of regret are TOTALLY valid. Everyone makes descions they regret at times, and the mature thing to do is take responsibility for those bad choices, acknowledge them, and get the help you need to move on. But to play victim and poor dumb woman to alliviate taking responsibility is just gross, and for Father Pavone to perpetuate that stereotype and use women for his own agenda like that is really really gross.

Sending the abortionist only to jail implies that the woman is too stoopid to know what she is doing. IF abortion is really murder, and a woman pays someone to murder her unborn child, wouldn't she logically be in the same legal position as someone who hired a hit man?

Unless, of course, you think women are dumb, scared, and helpless victims of men and abortionists.

Pro-Lifers cant have it both ways. Either you think women are intelligent beings who are responsible for their own choices, or you don't. Either you think abortion is murder and should be treated the same, or you don't.

And Jess has a good point; what if you self abort? If abortion is illegal, there will be a lot of Cytotec on the black market; it will be as easy to come by as Pot and Cocaine and everything else. Who is responsible then, when the women take the drug herself? Who is responsible when the woman throws herself down the stairs or induces it in another way? The woman who was supposedly too stupid to know?

And then there is the even more sinister question if abortion became illegal; would every miscarraige be treated with suspicion? If a pregnant woman has an accident and miscarries, is it a suspicious death? Would courts and juries weigh whether or not that tumble down the stairs was intentional or not? Is every miscarraige a suspicious death? Will pregnant women be restricted in their activities by law? Because that is where this all goes logically.

Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 5:49 PM


Maybe you need to have a conversation with Bob Enyart, sponsor of efforts to re-criminalize abortion in Colorado, who just yesterday on his website advocated the death penalty for any woman seeking an abortion, as well as for the abortionist.

Since many of the anti-choice extremists are on the record supporting jailing or execution of women who seek abortions, the question is valid, and your answer is in conflict with theirs.


Posted by: amused observer at February 19, 2008 5:56 PM


Don't be silly.

Georgia, Texas and Alabama have all floated "trigger laws" - enacted if Roe v. Wade were overturned - that would call for the death penalty for the woman procuring the abortion:
Georgia abortion bill including possible death penalty for doctor and mother

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2...lltext/hb1.htm

Yes, you read that right, death penalty is on the table for any woman receiving an abortion, or doctor perfoming an abortion if this bill passes.


edit: I just realized that the code is just referred to in the bill, here it is, in case you were wondering where i got death penalty from.

O.C.G.A. § 16-5-1


GEORGIA CODE
Copyright 2006 by The State of Georgia
All rights reserved.

*** Current through the 2006 Regular Session ***

TITLE 16. CRIMES AND OFFENSES
CHAPTER 5. CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON
ARTICLE 1. HOMICIDE

O.C.G.A. § 16-5-1 (2006)

§ 16-5-1. Murder; felony murder


(a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.

(b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

(c) A person also commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

(d) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for life.

HISTORY: Laws 1833, Cobb's 1851 Digest, p. 783; Code 1863, § 4217; Code 1868, § 4254; Code 1873, § 4320; Code 1882, § 4320; Penal Code 1895, § 60; Penal Code 1910, § 60; Code 1933, § 26-1002; Code 1933, § 26-1101, enacted by Ga. L. 1968, p. 1249, § 1.


Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 6:14 PM


IF abortion is to be illegal, I say throw the book at the woman seeking one, right along with her doctor. It takes two people to commit this act, and if it is to be a crime, both parties ought to accept responsibility. Besides, I'd like to see how popular it is to be a "pro-lifer" when we have prisons full of women, many of them wives and mothers torn away from their children, whose only "crime" was not wanting to carry a fetus to term.

Posted by: Ray at February 19, 2008 6:25 PM


"Those abortions are illegal now, Jess."

Yeah and if safe, legal abortions become illegal then it won't matter.

And supposedly caffeine causes miscarriages. So if you're a coffee drinker and miscarry, you killed it, you're a murderer, you get the car.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 6:34 PM


Consider these words from someone who had an abortion: "I really had no idea of what I was doing. I was completely ignorant about fetal development. I just wanted to get out of the crisis I was in."

I don't get how a person can get through school without knowing how a fetus develops. How can someone really think it's just blood? Did this person ever complete elementary school? That's like someone saying, "I didn't know a stop sign meant stop." It's her fault she's stupid. There is no way an intelligent adult would really have no idea what an abortion is.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 6:41 PM


Their should be some penalty for the women getting the abortion. The abortionist should get life in prison though.

Posted by: jasper at February 19, 2008 6:43 PM


Their are laws on the books already for pregnant mothers on crack. (I believe)

Posted by: jasper at February 19, 2008 6:44 PM


I mean google image "fetus." Ignorance is not an excuse for any other crimes. I guess everyone here just assumes women are vastly less intelligent then everyone else. That's like someone taking up smoking and saying, "I didn't know it causes cancer."

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 6:45 PM


I love how he lifts "real words" from some faceless, nameless woman who "didn't know what she was doing." Please. Women are not that dumb,
Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 5:49 PM

OK FPL,
Let's explore this further.

Women know they can get pregnant by not using any birth control.

Women know they can get pregnant by not using a condom every single time.

Women know they have to take a pill at the same time everyday for it to be effective.

Women know what their monthly cycles are and are aware of their fertile times.

If women know all of these things "and are not that dumb",how did they wind up with an unwanted pregnancy in the first place?

.........Just asking


Posted by: Sandy at February 19, 2008 6:50 PM


They were either being irresponsible or they just weren't thinking. Now they are faced with two choices: give birth or abort. You want them to take responsibility for their actions by giving birth. You don't let them get an abortion just because they weren't being responsible. Women who get abortions know what is going to happen.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 6:56 PM


Paying someone to commit a crime is itself a crime, called "solicitation".

If doing an abortion becomes a crime, the woman who pays the doc to do the crime will be guilty of solicitation.

There's no way around it. If abortion becomes illegal, patients as well as doctors will be criminalized.

Posted by: SoMG at February 19, 2008 6:56 PM


Sandy,
I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I have to tell you that I LOVE your posts! You're right on the money with sincere, smart questions and state sincere opinions and cold, hard facts. I enjoy reading them! Thank you!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 6:58 PM


So... Carla would be in prison. And her other kids probably never would have been born.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 7:00 PM


If abortion becomes illegal, even ASKING for one will also be a crime.

Posted by: SoMG at February 19, 2008 7:01 PM


I love how he lifts "real words" from some faceless, nameless woman who "didn't know what she was doing." Please. Women are not that dumb,
Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 5:49 PM

OK FPL,
Let's explore this further.

Women know they can get pregnant by not using any birth control.

Women know they can get pregnant by not using a condom every single time.

Women know they have to take a pill at the same time everyday for it to be effective.

Women know what their monthly cycles are and are aware of their fertile times.

If women know all of these things "and are not that dumb",how did they wind up with an unwanted pregnancy in the first place?

.........Just asking


Posted by: Sandy at February 19, 2008 6:50 PM
........................

Women also know that BC can fail. My 30 year old oopsie is the product of my choice to gestate after a spermicidal failure used during what should have been an infertile time of the month.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Just being real

Posted by: Sally at February 19, 2008 7:11 PM


Women who get abortions shouldn't go to jail--even if I were pro-life I would think so. Why? Because the drug user shouldn't go to jail; the dealer should. The prostitute shouldn't go to jail; the pimp should. Not to say that women who get abortions are like prostitutes or drug abusers (they AREN'T). The comparison comes strictly via the supposition that abortions are illegal.

Posted by: Leah at February 19, 2008 7:16 PM


Drug users go to jail for a reason. Being on drugs is harmful for yourself and society. Plus there would be no dealers if no one was buying.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 7:20 PM


So is drinking, Jess.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 19, 2008 7:28 PM


So? Drinking excessively in public, while driving or under age is illegal. One beer in front of the tv at night won't kill you or cause you to abduct a mentally disabled child and hide him in your closet believing he's an elf. That's why some drugs are plain illegal.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 7:35 PM


Jess,
Where on earth do you come up with this stuff!

You're killin' me!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 7:36 PM


If women know all of these things "and are not that dumb",how did they wind up with an unwanted pregnancy in the first place?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why don't you ask the people on this board who have had unplanned pregnancies.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 7:38 PM


I , as someone who has worked with many post-abortive women, absolutely think their should be criminal penalties for women. A lot of people, my mom included, think abortion is fine because it's legal. After all, if it was wrong, it would be illegal. I think we should go the hilt with criminal penalties just to discourage it as much as we can. I feel like abortion has been so soft-pedaled. I mean, c-mon, if i were to go hire a hitman to kill someone, I would be just as guilty, if not more so, than the one who pulled the trigger. And I think that prochoicers see how illogical our position is. If it's murder, treat it like murder.

Posted by: sara at February 19, 2008 7:38 PM


so Sandy, are you then for total access to effective birth control at low prices and comprehensive, acurate sex education, including Fertility Awareness, for young women? Because many of them can't afford 40$ a month for the pill or another 99% method, and many of them recieve inaccurate information about fertility from the very people who are supposed to be teaching them.

I used to teach high school, and you would be shocked at the number of teenage girls who think they can't get pregnant on their periods or if a guy pulls out. Because someone has to GIVE you that information; you don't pull it out of thin air.

But I have to say I have never met even a middle schooler who didn't know what an abortion was or what it entailed. That is covered in elementary school biology. I learned all about where babies are from and how they develope in fifth grade. I am sure there are a few women out there who really "don't know", but I highly doubt there are many.

I think what they "didn't know" is that there was a possibility, like there is with ALL descions in life, that they would regret it someday. I am sorry, but that does not make you a victim; it makes you an adult who regrets a desicion. Everyone makes mistakes; it is a mark of maturity to admit them and take responsibility for them.

Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 7:40 PM


Why don't you ask the people on this board who have had unplanned pregnancies.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 7:38 PM

Why don't you answer my post on "Slaughter House Rules"

Posted by: Sandy at February 19, 2008 7:42 PM


Sandy,
I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I have to tell you that I LOVE your posts! You're right on the money with sincere, smart questions and state sincere opinions and cold, hard facts. I enjoy reading them! Thank you!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 6:58 PM
Thanks Anon!

Posted by: Sandy at February 19, 2008 7:44 PM


Why don't you answer my post on "Slaughter House Rules"
~~~
Why don't you get more fiber in your diet?

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 7:53 PM


"Sandy,
I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I have to tell you that I LOVE your posts! You're right on the money with sincere, smart questions and state sincere opinions and cold, hard facts. I enjoy reading them! Thank you!"

On behalf of Sandy I would like to thank you for your comments they are most appreciated.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 7:53 PM


Why don't you answer my post on "Slaughter House Rules"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because the assertions you made had nothing to do with the questions I asked or the facts I presented.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 7:57 PM


I think what they "didn't know" is that there was a possibility, like there is with ALL descions in life, that they would regret it someday. I am sorry, but that does not make you a victim; it makes you an adult who regrets a desicion. Everyone makes mistakes; it is a mark of maturity to admit them and take responsibility for them.

Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 7:40 PM

-----------

So how do you explain women who have had mulitple abortions?

I've heard that the definition of insanity is making the same mistake twice but expecting a different outcome. Would these women be considered "insane" to you?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 8:03 PM


Jess,

toking up isn't very destructive either, if anything it is much less destructive. I hope you want full legalization of that too.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 19, 2008 8:21 PM


PIP,
Yes I think marijuana should be legal. The only reason it isn't is because it's not white men who would be making a profit off of it like tobacco or alcohol.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 8:24 PM


HEY! You can get a TICKET for that where I live!
(I know people who have been cited and fined and the cops didn't even seize the rest of their weed. They don't want the hassle. They just want the $100.00 in revenue.)

"Under California law, possession of less than an ounce of marijuana has been decriminalized with a maximum $100 fine and no jail time. Because simple possession has been decriminalized, even if police see someone smoking a joint inside a house, they have not witnessed a jailable offense, hence the only way they may enter without a search warrant is if they seek and receive the permission of a resident."

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 8:37 PM


Jess: Drug users do NOT need jail, they need rehab. Once they get out of jail, they'll go right back to using. But rehab at least gives hope of recovery.

Posted by: Leah at February 19, 2008 8:41 PM


no, they would be irresponsible. Or unfortunate or really really unlucky. But certainly not ignorant. Just because some of the descions you make are poor doesn't mean that you don't know what they are.

Isn't that what this was about, whether or not women are "victims" of abortion too? There is a major difference between making choices you will later regret and NOT KNOWING what those choices entail.

Everyone makes mistakes. I drank too much liquor when I was out with friends in NYC a few months ago and spent the whole night puking with my Boyfriend holding my hair back (he's such a sweetie). I had done it before (22nd and 26th birthdays respectively) and I certainly "knew" what was going to happen once I followed three beers with a cabernet and a shot of Jameson. I was niether ignorant or insane; I just made a poor descison in the moment and embarassed the crap out of myself. Hopefully I'll never be that stupid again. But like everyone, I make poor choices sometimes. I know they are bad. I'm a big 28 year old girl and I didn't run around the next morning saying to everyone I puked in front of that I was a victim of the bartender and just "Didn't Know!" that a shot of whisky following three beers and a cabernet was going to make my 110 lbs sick as hell. Of course I knew.

Luckily, the most poor descions I've made I got over in 24 hours by eating a bacon egg and cheese the next morning and drinking lots of water. Luckily they didn't gestate into offspring that would seriously change my body and give me a responsibility I would have for the rest of my life.

Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 8:47 PM


Wow. You go to parent teacher conferences and you miss so much. I should go to prison?

Posted by: Carla at February 19, 2008 8:51 PM


FPL,
I understand that people make mistakes. I've made my fair share, too. Some much more severe than just getting drunk on occasion. I also believe that correlating abortions to getting drunk is not really a fair comparison.

However, my question was in response to you stating that people regret their decisions. If one is feeling regret for a decision, than one respectively would do something to avoid regret in the future. Unless, of course, they are happy constantly beating themselves up, or simply insane. One would not have regret if one did not feel that they were doing anything wrong. We simply don't regret things that went well for us in life.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 8:55 PM


Jess,

I agree with you on marijuana but agree with Leah on the jail time. There is no point locking a drug user in prison-to just come back out and do it some more. There are enough people in the system as is.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 19, 2008 9:07 PM


PIP & Leah,
At least while they're in jail they're not stealing to get the money to pay for it, or prostituting themselves to pay for it. Many drug users will commit crime after crime to continue using. Many times, the scare tactic of jail works for them. I've seen judges in action with users who have been caught. The judges do give them every chance possible to clean themselves up. When the judges see that it's not going to happen, and there is no effort on the user's part, they send them to jail to hopefully straighten them up quickly so they can be a useful citizen in society.

Isn't jail a place for people to go to who are a danger to others? IMO, drug users endanger many people, including themselves.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 9:14 PM


Pavone is playing to the audience, and neglecting rational thought. Anyway, good grief - this talk of prosecuting doctors and women is just silly.

Doug

Posted by: DumbOldUltimateGhoul at February 19, 2008 9:37 PM


I will fight in favor of rehab always.

Posted by: Leah at February 19, 2008 9:54 PM


sure some women regret their abortions because they think, or later come to think, that they are wrong. Again, it doesn't mean that they didn;t know.

Also, don't forget there are many women who DON'T regret their abortions. Some women feel relief. Some feel a mix of sadness, guilt, but still think they did the right thing. Women's personal experience of and response to abortion is as varied as the reasons that they get them.

Which again, is why I am pro-choice. A descion that complex cannot be made by anyone but the woman who makes it.

Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 19, 2008 9:54 PM


Sadly jail nowadays does little to "straighten people out" just train the people to become better criminals.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 19, 2008 9:55 PM


Politically-Correct question:

Can
Hillary
Hear
The
Non-Skinny
Lady
In
Song?

Posted by: Doug at February 19, 2008 9:58 PM


LOL Doug,

I think she can!!

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 19, 2008 10:07 PM


Why don't you answer my post on "Slaughter House Rules"
~~~
Why don't you get more fiber in your diet?
Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 7:53 PMI

Jess,
Whaaatt?
*******************
don't get how a person can get through school without knowing how a fetus develops. How can someone really think it's just blood? Did this person ever complete elementary school? That's like someone saying, "I didn't know a stop sign meant stop." It's her fault she's stupid. There is no way an intelligent adult would really have no idea what an abortion is.
Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 6:41 PM

Jess,
You would be surprised at how many women don't really comprehend what is inside of them.
At one of the pregnancy loss conferences we held, there were a bunch of first year nursing students who attended. We had actual clay models that were created by an artist that were designed after actual miscarried babies. They were the right size, weight and had all of the features representing a baby of each week of gestation. The nursing students were so amazed at what they were looking at and stated they had no idea that babies at such a early gestational stage looked so complete.

Also, ultrasounds I believe were not even available to most women until the mid eighties.
You have to remember that women were constantly told they were just removing a blob of tissue or a clot from them.

Also, many former abortion workers have testified that they lied all the time to get women to abort.

Posted by: Sandy at February 19, 2008 10:26 PM


Why don't you answer my post on "Slaughter House Rules"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because the assertions you made had nothing to do with the questions I asked or the facts I presented.


Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 7:57 PM

FF,
They have everything to do with the questions and "facts" you presented.
Try again.

Posted by: Sandy at February 19, 2008 10:28 PM


PIP, that's one reason why abortion shouldn't be illegal. Also marijuana shouldn't be illegal. They should have a rehab type program in jails, because there's no way to know if these people are going to get the help they need on the streets.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 10:33 PM


Sandy,
The right amount of fiber can help prevent a number of cancers including colon. I bet you don't get enough fiber. You probably think you do but I'm sure you don't.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 10:37 PM


Why, because they will learn how to get a better abortion in the future?

In my plan, there will not be many women serving jail time because there will be little logical reason to have an abortion in the first place.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 19, 2008 10:51 PM


Sounds like a plan PIP.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 11:11 PM


sara 7:38,

I , as someone who has worked with many post-abortive women, absolutely think their should be criminal penalties for women.

How did you work with post-abortive women?

A lot of people, my mom included, think abortion is fine because it's legal. After all, if it was wrong, it would be illegal. I think we should go the hilt with criminal penalties just to discourage it as much as we can.

Just like slavery was OK because it was legal?

I feel like abortion has been so soft-pedaled. I mean, c-mon, if i were to go hire a hitman to kill someone, I would be just as guilty, if not more so, than the one who pulled the trigger. And I think that prochoicers see how illogical our position is. If it's murder, treat it like murder.

So you agree that abortion is killing, but it's still OK because its "legal"? What is "our position exactly?

Posted by: Janet at February 19, 2008 11:29 PM


"Just like slavery was OK because it was legal?"

The slaves didn't live inside of and attached to their owners did they? I don't care if oppressed I don't want you in my uterus. GD it it's crowded enough with my bf and doctor.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 11:47 PM


Abortionists should be ripped apart a piece at a time by the baby's father, in a professional manner without hurting the mother of ocurse.

Posted by: Truthseeker at February 20, 2008 12:09 AM


Janet I think she is anti-abortion pro jail time. If I am not mistaken. But I might be.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 20, 2008 12:14 AM


Abortionists should be ripped apart a piece at a time by the baby's father
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The father?
Hey, the woman decided to have the abortion, not the abortionist.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 20, 2008 12:22 AM


I actually don't think my boyfriend would want me to abort. I don't know though cause I've never been pregnant. If he didn't want me to I wouldn't. Yeah he'd have to marry me though.

Posted by: Jess at February 20, 2008 1:07 AM


Lol now you guys go off and find me a nice pro-life man and you won't be worrying about me anymore : )

Posted by: Jess at February 20, 2008 1:09 AM


Jess,
Ask and God will bless your union together. Pray together (can be done at home)each day and nothing in this world will be able to come between you.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2008 1:25 AM


.. how about mandatory counseling instead of jail time?

Posted by: laurel at February 20, 2008 1:25 AM


Jess, that was my post I forgot to post my name

Posted by: Truthseeker at February 20, 2008 1:26 AM


What if they have already been to counseling? What if they work at a Crisis Pregnancy Center? What if they are involved in Rachel's Vineyard? Silent No More? Operation Outcry?
What if women who have had abortions and regret it be shown mercy? Grace? Compassion? Love?

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 6:17 AM


What if BEFORE a woman has an abortion she be shown mercy, grace, compassion and love?

If it's not a baby, but "products of conception" "a clump of cells" "a bunch of tissue"...
If it's not murder or abortion but "terminating a pregnancy"...
If it's so "safe, legal and rare"...
If it's as "easy as getting a tooth pulled"...

Why would anyone suggest jail time or mandatory counseling?

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 6:36 AM


"How much time should she do?" is one of the pro-choicers' new favorite questions. In my opinion, it's a sign that they're starting to realize that the tide has turned against them. Stripped of their usual language of Choice, they now have to resort to FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to smear pro-lifers.

There's two answers to the question of criminalizing women who abort. The first answer is practical, and Father Frank is dead-on right about that. No pre-Roe anti-abortion laws sent women to prison for seeking an abortion. It just didn't happen. The focus of enforcement was always the abortionist. The practical reasoning was much the same as Father Frank expressed. Jailing a woman who aborts will do little to stop other abortions, but using her testimony to send an abortionist to prison is much more effective. Laws and law-enforcement aren't perfect tools, and we always seek to do the most amount of good with the least amount of harm. If we can stop abortion by imprisoning a few thousand abortionists, then that's preferable to sending far larger numbers of women to prison. Finally, there would be very (very) little political support for a law that would send women to prison. For practical reasons, it makes little sense to prosecute women who abort.

The second answer is moral and logical. Putting aside practical considerations, I actually think that the pro-choicers have a valid point in their snark. Abortion is killing. As such, someone who hires a contract killer should face a legal penalty for doing so. It need not be the same penalty as for murder. After all, the law recognizes many different forms of killing and different penalties for all of them. I can make several arguments for why abortion is not exactly the same as murder, but it certainly is a form of killing, so some legal penalty should apply. Mandatory counseling is the "warm and fuzzy" option, but I don't agree with it. Sadly, there are some women who abort in complete awareness of what they're doing. Counseling won't help everyone, and it's also a bit patronizing. No ... good old-fashioned prison time is probably the best option.

As a final note to women who have aborted: The US Constitution prohibits ex post facto laws. In other words, you can't be found guilty of something that wasn't illegal when you did it. Therefore, even if somehow anti-abortion law turns to prosecuting women ... you can't be prosecuted for an abortion that was legal at the time you had it.

Posted by: Naaman at February 20, 2008 7:49 AM


FUD. I like that.

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 7:53 AM


Funny how quickly everyone wanted to get off-topic, and avoid the nasty question of how many women you want to put in prison.

The simple fact is that the anti-choice extremists are pushing consititutional amendments and legislation designed to legally define any abortion at any time for any reason as murder. Since abortions do not happen in the heat of the moment or by accident, it has to be first degree murder. In every state, the presumptive penalty for first degree murder is many years in prison or death.

Father Pavone assumes a fantasy world in which women having abortions, and thus committing first degree murder, would have no criminal consequences, would magically not be prosecuted or would be plea bargained down to a traffic ticket or would get counselling instead of jail.

To Father Pavone, Jill Stanek, Naaman and others who wish to live in this fantasy world, let me give you a reality check. Unless you are willing to have millions of women in jail for seeking or having an abortion, you need to reconsider your efforts to re-criminalize abortion.

The anti-choice extremists have considered the logical consequences of their actions and are on board with jailing and executing women for having abortions. Either you are on board or you are not.

Posted by: amused observer at February 20, 2008 10:44 AM


Amused Observer, you do not appear to be that observant. Naaman answered your question beautifully.

Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 11:00 AM


If you have an abortion, you are a murderer. You should in turn be put to death.

Posted by: PeachPit at February 20, 2008 11:37 AM


Someone amusedly observed:
Funny how quickly everyone wanted to get off-topic, and avoid the nasty question of how many women you want to put in prison.

Actually, I answered your question. My preferred answer is none because I don't want anyone to have an abortion for any reason. If women persist in having abortions, then I am willing to send them to prison for doing so. However, I also recognize that practical considerations will probably prevent any woman from ever going to prison for procuring an abortion.

Read my earlier comment. I really did address the issue.

The simple fact is that the anti-choice extremists are pushing consititutional amendments and legislation designed to legally define any abortion at any time for any reason as murder.

Now that's just ignorant. The law recognizes many different kinds of killing and assigns different levels of punishment to each one. I've never seen an anti-abortion law that actually attempted to declare abortion as murder. Even the much-feared (and ultimately overturned) South Dakota ban didn't go that far. In fact, the SD ban declared abortion to be a Class 5 felony for the abortionist, and the woman was specifically exempted from prosecution.

I'm not a lawyer, and even I know that killing doesn't always equal murder. A little education would make your observations much more accurate....

Father Pavone assumes a fantasy world....

Father Pavone's "fantasy world" is an accurate depiction of pre-Roe anti-abortion laws. There's no fantasy to it. Of course, no human being knows the future, so we can't know exactly what post-Roe anti-abortion laws will say. However, based on what the pre-Roe laws said, I think Father Pavone is likely to be correct.

To Father Pavone, Jill Stanek, Naaman and others who wish to live in this fantasy world, let me give you a reality check. Unless you are willing to have millions of women in jail for seeking or having an abortion, you need to reconsider your efforts to re-criminalize abortion.

As I wrote, I'm willing to put women in prison for seeking abortions. I don't think it'll happen, but I am actually willing to go there.

That said, I seriously dispute your estimate of "millions" of women who would continue to obtain abortions in violation of the law. The United States of America has some of the most-permissive abortion laws on the planet (any time, any reason), and we only have about a million abortions per year. (That's still too many, but anyway....) When Roe finally dies, and abortion is criminalized again, the number of abortions will decrease.

You're also ignoring that abortion will probably return to the states. Many states will ban it, but some states will keep it legal. Women who live in states where it is banned will simply travel to states where it is legal. A true nationwide abortion ban will require a lot more changing of hearts and minds, and it will (sadly) be a long while in the future.

The anti-choice extremists have considered the logical consequences of their actions...

Some of us have considered the logical consequences of our actions. Have you considered the logical consequences of your actions? Human rights are now a function of utility. Small, young, sick, defenseless, and elderly people can now be considered "unpersons" and legally killed. How long will it be before you or someone dear to you is likewise targeted? Today, unborn children are in the crosshairs. Tomorrow, it might be handicapped people, homosexuals, racial minorities, or any other marginalized group.

Humanity is only as strong as its weakest link. If you can find a way to excuse killing some of us, sooner or later you'll find a way to excuse killing any of us.

Posted by: Naaman at February 20, 2008 11:45 AM


So women 'should' go to jail for having an abortion ... back to the control freak misogyny foundation of the whole antichoice argument.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 20, 2008 12:51 PM


You send me to jail for getting an abortion. Fine, I'll go. And when I'm out i'll do it again. I'll keep doing it for aslong as I feel it is necessary to my wellbeing. Jail does not scare me. I've been to jail.

"The government that can tell you you must have this child is the government that can tell you, you can't have this child." - Gloria Feldt, The War On Choice

Posted by: Sugar at February 20, 2008 1:02 PM


um, the "small, sick, old and defenseless" are not being killed in our country. You cannot legally kill born children (and its pretty hard to kill a viable fetus under most laws at that), you cannot legally kill a sick person, you cannot legally kill old people just because they are old and sick. The ONLY state that even comes close is Oregon, which allows terminally ill individuals to choose suicide FOR THEMSELVES (which I don't think is right, but they aren't being offed by people who don't feel like taking care of them)

Yes, families and living wills can discontinue EXTRA-ORDINARY treatment from people who are unconcious, brain dead, vegitative state, etc. As it should be; no one should be required to stay alive artificially past their time.

This kind of hyperbole of Oh No They're Coming After Us! from Pro-Lifers is why I don't take many seriously. No one is coming after you.

Also, EXCELLENT quote from Gloria Felt, and one the highlights that Pro-Choice is against forced descions of ALL kinds. Pro-Choice is against being kept on life support against your will. Pro-Choice is against forced abortion. Pro-Choice is against UNPLUGGING a person from life support against their or their families will. Pro-Choice means being able to marry whom you wish.

That is why the Terri Schiavo thing was such a big turning point for me. I realized that people who wanted to legislate intimate moral choices about pregnancy also wanted to legislate intimate moral choices about the end of life, and that scared the crap out of me.

Gay marraige was another issue for me; even though I am totally straight, it is scary that in a free country, people are forced to follow the beliefs of OTHER PEOPLE'S sectarian religious doctrine when it comes to whom they may form a family with.

The difference between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, over all, is that Pro-Choice believes that every American has the right and capacity to make descions about private morality, health, religion, and family life for themselves. Pro-"Life" believes they have the right to impose their personal and religious descions and religion on others. Pro-Choice people resect the right of Conservative Christians to be Conservative Christians have 5 kids and stay on feeding tubes for fifteen years if they want. That respect doesn't seem to go the other way around.

Posted by: former pro-lifer at February 20, 2008 1:42 PM



I don't get how a person can get through school without knowing how a fetus develops. How can someone really think it's just blood? Did this person ever complete elementary school? That's like someone saying, "I didn't know a stop sign meant stop." It's her fault she's stupid. There is no way an intelligent adult would really have no idea what an abortion is.

Posted by: Jess at February 19, 2008 6:41 PM

Two words for that kind of ignorance:

Public School

Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2008 2:30 PM


fpl:

What would have to happen/change for you to become pro-life again? Obviously you were at one time...

Posted by: Janet at February 20, 2008 2:30 PM


Yes, it's my fault I am stupid, Jess.
My parents never mentioned sex, much less menstruation to me. In Parenting class we were given a budget of $4,000 to plan our dream weddings.
Where would I have seen fetal models? Please remember I am quite a bit older than you.

I have to sign a permission slip for my children to hear about AIDS in school. I doubt they will be teaching abortion in their school. But I can. :)

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 3:01 PM


Per FPL:
"Pro-Choice is against UNPLUGGING a person from life support against their or their families will."

FPL:
Where were all the pro-choice groups supporting Teri Schiavo's family? Where was NARAL and their ilk? Can you provide me with any sources to support this?

Per FPL:
"Pro-Choice people resect the right of Conservative Christians to be Conservative Christians have 5 kids and stay on feeding tubes for fifteen years if they want."

FPL,
Ever heard of Margaret Sanger?

Per FPL:
That is why the Terri Schiavo thing was such a big turning point for me. I realized that people who wanted to legislate intimate moral choices about pregnancy also wanted to legislate intimate moral choices about the end of life, and that scared the crap out of me.

FPL,
Then doesn't the Roe V Wade decision scare the crap out of you?

Posted by: Sandy at February 20, 2008 3:19 PM


I don't get how a person can get through school without knowing how a fetus develops. How can someone really think it's just blood? Did this person ever complete elementary school? That's like someone saying, "I didn't know a stop sign meant stop." It's her fault she's stupid. There is no way an intelligent adult would really have no idea what an abortion is.

Yes, there really is, Jess. You would be amazed at how many kids come out of public schools never having ANY knowledge of fetal development. Does your school teach classes on embryology? How else, other than the internet and your own other research, have you found pictures of fetuses and the information about when they start doing the different things they do, etc?
Is it not "common knowledge" to many people that a fetus is "not human" until a certain point? Even you agree that a fetus doesn't have to be protected till a certain stage, which leads me to believe that you yourself do not truly see them as human beings until a certain time.

If even you, who has seen the marvelous complexity of the human fetus in the womb with your own eyes, and have heard all the scientific evidence that shows that human life begins at conception, and yet you still think that it doesn't deserve to be protected, how in the world do you expect other girls to know and understand any better than you? How do you expect other girls to be stronger than you, to know better than you do and to be completely guilty of murder?

Or...is it that you do believe, based on the evidence you have seen, they are human beings, yet you believe that abortion is "justifiable homicide", as SOMG puts it?

Also, ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity. One can be completely unaware of fetal development, without being "stupid". I have come into contact with many girls at the CPC where I work that were completely stunned when they saw the fetal models. Apparently they aren't being taught about that in schools nowadays, even though the information is readily available on the internet and in medical books. They know lots and lots about contraception, but when it comes to fetal development- "what"?


Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 3:27 PM


Sandy, it's so good to have you here! Love ya!

Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 3:31 PM


Hi Sandy! Hi Bethany!
Feels a little "contempty" around here. :O

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 3:34 PM


Hi Carla! Yeah, it gets that way from time to time, doesn't it?

Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 3:39 PM


Bethany,
I'm lovin' it that you & Sandy are posting more now!

You guys rock!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2008 3:48 PM


Carla 3:01,

I have to sign a permission slip for my children to hear about AIDS in school. I doubt they will be teaching abortion in their school. But I can. :)

You are so right about not hearing about abortion in school. It should be a part of the biology curriculum. (It is reproductive healthcare after all.) They should include an abortion video with the comprehensive sex-ed programs. No one wants to talk about it until it's too late.

I'm also worried about the abortion/morning after pills that PP is peddling to kids without out explaining the potential long term risk of putting all these chemicals in their bodies. They talk about the morning after pill like it's an aspirin to be taken for a headache. Scary.

Pfl:

"Pro-choice is a word the abortion supporters made up because it sounds better than pro-baby killing/abortion. It really doesn't apply to family values, morals, gay marriage, or all those other causes you mentioned. Being pro-life (anti-abortion) is important enough that it should stand on its own, so if you don't like abortion, then you're pro-life.

Posted by: Janet at February 20, 2008 3:51 PM


Hey Bethany!
Thanks! Love ya back!
Another great post by they way:)

I also think that people know intellectually what abortion is, but won't really understand the emotional consequences of abortion until they have had one.

I could definitley say the same went for my first miscarriage. I knew what miscarriage was, but had absolutley no idea the effect it would have on my life. I had friends and relatives who miscarried, but was so oblivious to their emotions and was unfortunately completely unsympathetic. After my miscarriage, I called everyone I knew who had told me about theirs when they experienced their loss and greatly apologized for not understanding what they were going through.

Hey Carla! :)
I'm with you too. We never got any fetal development education when I was in school.
Just the old, pretend we were married for a week to another classmate assignment and carry around an egg shell pretending it was our baby.

Posted by: Sandy at February 20, 2008 3:55 PM


There have been teachers that have shown abortion in their classrooms. One showed The Silent Scream. I believe they taught on the East Coast. I apologize. I am not as snappy with the links. I bow to Bethany.

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 3:55 PM


Since abortion is murder, and all prolife groups work
to get the law changed to reflect this simple fact,
it stands to reason that all women who has abortions
will be prosecuted for 1st degree murder.
If a doctor was involved, he will of course also be
prosecuted. However in the future very few doctors
would risk this, so as a pratical matter in most cases
it will only be the women who is prosecuted.

There was a discussion on this very web site not long ago
regarding the actual punishment for these women.
The writer was reluctant to endorce capital punishment
but suggested 7-10 years.
This is of cource the discussion we should be having.
Obviously murder in the 1st degree can not somehow be
ignored by prosecutors.
7 to 10 years seems rather light, 25 to life would
be more in line would current guidelines.

Posted by: d monk at February 20, 2008 4:30 PM


Thought we covered this already. A woman who has an abortion when it is legal to do so cannot be put in jail.
You can almost feel the hatred.............

Posted by: Carla at February 20, 2008 4:45 PM


Anon 3:48
You rock too! I only wish I had a separate name for you.... I accidentally got you mixed up with another anonymous the other day...perhaps two different anonymouses, because one of them signs their posts with an S. haha But either way, you still rock.

Sandy. 3:55...I had a very similar experience with miscarriages...before I had one, one of my friends had one, and while I felt awful for her, because I knew she wanted a baby...I honestly didn't think it was that painful for her. I had NO idea. I did sympathize with her and I even sent her flowers.... but once I went through the miscarriage myself I felt SO awful for not having any clue what she had been going through! That is one reason that I am writing the book...it's in the hopes that it can help women, not only to know what to expect for themselves, but so that other women can know what other women are going through, physically, emotionally, spiritually, after suffering through a miscarriage.
I remember thinking that my friends' pain would be over in a month or two. I was SO wrong and SO ignorant!! I did apologize to her for not having been able to support her as much as I would have been able to after my own miscarriage.
That is one good thing that has come through my miscarriage. The ability to empathize, not just sympathize, with women who have gone through that type of thing. And that is a blessing.

Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 5:10 PM


Thought we covered this already. A woman who has an abortion when it is legal to do so cannot be put in jail.
You can almost feel the hatred.............

You really can.

Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 5:16 PM


Naaman: Humanity is only as strong as its weakest link. If you can find a way to excuse killing some of us, sooner or later you'll find a way to excuse killing any of us.

Well, the Birth Standard has been around for thousands and thousands of years, for starters. "any of us" are not inside the body of a person, and there is of course also the matter of the unborn not being part of the "us" in the same way as are born people.

Personhood has not been attributed before birth for time immemorial, in culture after culture, all around the world. This "sooner or late" stuff is pretty ludicrous, IMO.

If there is to be an agent for excusing killing "any of us," I suggest that it will be population pressure and the sheer numbers of people on the planet.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 20, 2008 8:58 PM


The old appeal to pessimism is alive and well in Doug. The only absolute truth for Doug is Malthus.
Then Doug appeals to the "everybody is doing it" logic, soo common to Doug, and his need to justify abortion.
Yea, Doug, murder has been around forever too.
Propaganda score; 2 out of possible 10.
Your losing it Doug, pick it up.

Posted by: yllas at February 21, 2008 10:51 AM


The credulity required to believe that a stroke of a judges pen can actually make an inherently dangerous act safe is truly mind-boggling. Induced abortion is inherently dangerous because it deliberately seeks to destroy one innocent human life, and it violates a natural process set in motion at fertilization. The only thing that has mitigated the physical dangers of induced abortion was the discovery of antibiotics, which reduced the risk of some infections; however, women still die of infections from "safe & legal" abortions, and infection is but one of dozens of medically recognized physical abortion complication risks.

"Safe & Legal abortions" are thus a fantasy, as any of these women

(Diane Adams, 28, died 1992
Eurice Agbagaa, 26, died 1989
Leigh Ann Alford, 34, died 2003
Demitrice Andews, 22, died 1988
Mickey Apodaca, 28, died 1984
Gloria Aponte, 20, died 1986
Charisse Ards, 20, died 1989
Barbara Auerbach, 38, died 1981
KB, age 19, died 1988
Jacqueline Bailey, 29, died 1977
Brenda Banks, 35, died 1989
Myrta Baptiste, 26, died 1989
Lisa Bardsley, 26, died 1995
Junette Barnes, 27, died 1988
Deanna Bell, 13, died 1992
Brenda Benton, 35, died 1987
Rosario Bermeo, 30, died 1983
Janet Blaum, 37, died 1974
Cassandra Bleavins, 20, died 1971
Linda Boom, 35, died 1995
Diane Boyd, 19, died 1981
Mary Bradley, 41, died 1985
Dorothy Brown, 37, died 1974
Chanelle Bryant, 22, died 2004
Dorothy Bryant, 22, died 1986
Belinda Byrd, 37, died 1987
Janeth Caldwell, 36, died 1987
Geneva Calton, 21, died 1979
Joan Camp, 22, died 1985
Marla Cardamone, 18, died 1989
Teresa Causey, 17, died 1988
Claudia Caventou, 33, died 1988
Patricia Chacon, 16, died 1984
Colleen Chambers, 34, died 1984
Sandra Chmiel, 35, died 1975
Gwendolyn Cliett, 29, died 1980
Margaret Clodfelter, 19, died 1980
Pamela Colson, 31, died 1994
Geneva Colton, 21, died 1979
Andrea Corey, 31, died 1993
Liliana Cortez, 22, died 1986
Edith Cote, 38, died 1991
Sheryl Cottone, 23, died 1981
Twila Coulter, 21, died 1972
Carol Cunningham, 21, died 1986
Betty Damato, 26, died 1980
Mary Ann Dancy, 32, died 1990
Angel Dardie, 22, died 1982
Barbaralee Davis, 18, died 1977
Glenda Davis, 31, died 1989
Kathy Davis, 26, died 1987
Margaret Davis, 33, died 1971
Sharon Davis, 17, died 1983
Marina DeChapel, 34, died 1978
Arlin dela Cruz, age 19, died 1992
Synthia Dennard, 24, died 1989
Alerte Desanges, 36, died 1994
Barbara Dillon, 22, died 1981
Jane Doe of Newark, 20, died 1993
Laniece Dorsey, 17, died 1986
Tamika Dowdy, 22, died 1998
Gwendolyn Drummer, 15, died 1972
Duarte, Anjelica, 21, died 1991
Evelyn Dudley, 38, died 1973
Sherry Emry, 26, died 1978
Georgianna English, 32, died 1980
Maureen Espinoza, 16, died 1997
Gladyss Estanlisao, 28, died 1989
Erna Fisher, 18, died 1988
Bonnie Fix, 38, died 1974
Sharon Floyd, 18, died 1975
Linda Fondren, 21, died 1974
Janet Forster, 18, died 1971
Cristella Forte, 16, died 1986
Glenna Jean Fox, 17, died 1989
Jammie Garcia, 14, died 1994
Josefina Garcia, died 1985
Marie Gibson, 34, died 1980
Christen Gilbert, 19, died 2005
Kathleen Gilbert, 29, died 1985
Christina Goesswein, 19, died 1990
Gaylene Golden, 21, died 1985
Maria Gomez, 39, died 1976
Edrica Goode, 21, died 2007
Shary Graham, 34, died 1982
Doris Grant, 32, died 1971
Debra Gray, 34, died 1989
Laura Grunas, 30, died 2006
Carolina Gutierrez, 21, died 1996
Angela Hall, 27, died 1991
Sharon Hamplton, 27, died 1996
Arneta Hardaway, 18, died 1985
Gracalynn "Tammy" Harris, 19, died 1997
Wilma Harris, 17, died 1974
L'Echelle Head, 21, died 2000
Sheila Hebert, 27, died 1984
Donna Heim, 20, died 1986
Lou Ann Herron, 33, died 1998
Moris Helen Herron, 26, died 1983
Rhonda Hess, 20, died 1982
Betty Hines, 21, died 1971
Shirley Hollis, 30, died 1991
Denise Holmes, 24, died 1970
Barbara Hoppert, 16, died 1983
Mary Ives, 28, died 1983
Karretu Jabbie, 24, died 1989
Louchrisser Jackson, 23, died 1977
Sandra Kaiser, 14, died 1984
Patricia King, 24, died 1987
Giselene Lafontant, 25, died 1993
Minnie Lathan, 41, died 1978
Barbara Lerner, 30, died 1981
Susan Levy, 30, died 1992
Cora Lewis, 23, died 1992
Sara Lint, 22, died 1970
Maria Lira, 19, ded 1974
Suzanne Logan, 34, died 1992
Diana Lopez, 25, died 2002
Linda Lovelace, 21, died 1980
Elva Lozada, died 1964
Deborah Lozinski, 17, died 1985
Dawn Mack, 21, died 1991
Michelle Madden, 18, died 1986
Sharon Margrove, 25, died 1970
Haley Mason, 22, died 2001
Gail Mazo, 27, died 1979
Sophie McCoy, 17, died 1990
Rita McDowell, 16, died 1975
Myria McFadden, 28, died 1987
Evangeline McKenna, 38, died 1974
Kathy McKnight, 36, died 1993
Kendra McLeod, 22, died 1998
Lynn McNair, 24, died 1979
Dawn Mendoza, 28, died 1988
Yvonne Mesteth, 18, died 1985
Natalie Meyers, 16, died 1972
Sandra Milton, 23, died 1990
Mitsue Mohar, 31, died 1975
Ruth Montero, 23, died 1979
Denise Montoya, 15, died 1988
Beverly Moore, 15, died 1975
Sylvia Moore, 18, died 1986
Christine Mora, 18, died 1994
Maura Morales, 25, died 1981
Shelby Moran, 60, died 1999
Katherine Morse, 20, died 1970
Kelly Morse, 32, died 1992
Loretta Morton, 16, died 1984
Kathy Murphy, 17, died 1973
Dorothy Muzorewa, 25, died 1974
Guadalupe Negron, 33, died 1993
Kimberly Neil, died 2000
Germaine Newman, 14, died 1984
Sara Niebel, 15, died 1994
Maria Ortega, 23, died 1970
Joyce Ortenzio, 32, died 1988
Venus Ortiz, 29, died 1998
Linda Padfield, 28, died 1973
Mary Ann Page, 36, died 1977
Mary Paredez, 26, died 1977
Holly Patterson, 18, died 2003
Shirley Payne, 33, died 1983
Mary Pena, 43, died 1984
DaNette Pergusson, 19, died 1992
Erika Peterson, 28, died 1961
Katherine Pierce, 27, died 1989
Katrina Poole, 16, died 1988
Yvette Poteat, 26, died 1985
Vanessa Preston, 22, died 1980
Dawn Ravenell, 13, died 1985
Jacqueline Reynolds, 22, died 1986
Erica Richardson, 16, died 1989
Luz Rodriguez, 40, died 1986
Magdalena Rodriguez, 23, died 1994
Rosael Rodriguez, 21, died 1986
Adelle Roe, age 26, died 2002
Amanda Roe, 19, died 1970
Alice Roe, 31, died 1970
Amy Roe, 35, died 1971
Annie Roe, 29, died 1971
Andrea Roe, 26, died 1971
Anita Roe, 23, died 1971
April Roe, 17, died 1971
Audrey Roe, 44, died 1971
Barbara Roe, 35, died 1971
Becky Roe, 18, died 1971
Beth Roe, 35, died 1971
Betty Roe, 29, died 1974
Beverly Roe, 21, died 1978
Brenda Roe, 31, died 1974
Cherish Roe, died 2005
Christi Roe, 29, died 1972
Cindy Roe, 25, died 1972
Colleen Roe, 31, died 1972
Connie Roe, 31, died 1972
Danielle Roe, 18, died 1972
Dawn Roe, 29, died 1972
Denise Roe, 27, died 1977
Donna Roe, 18, died 1973
Dorothy Roe, 44, died 1973
Eleanor Roe, 20, died 1973
Ellen Roe #1, 22, died 1974
Ellen Roe #2, 18, died 1983
Erica Roe, 20, died 1974
Faith Roe, 21, died 1974
Faye Roe, 18, died 1979
Gail Roe, 23, died 1975
Gloria Roe, 35, died 1976
Isabel Roe, died 1981
Judy Roe, 42, died 1970
Julie Roe, 14, died 1972
Kimberly Roe, 25, died 1970
Lori Roe, 17, died 1970
Malorie Roe, 35, died 1974
Mary Roe, 19, died 1971
Melissa Roe, 27, died 1992
Molly Roe, 21, died 1975
Monica Roe, 31, died 1971
Nadine Roe, 32, died 1978
Nancy Roe, 16, died 1972
Pamela Roe, 38, died 1974
Patricia Roe, 16, died 1975
Robin Roe, 21, died 1972
Roseanne Roe, 37, died 1971
Roxanne Roe, 17, died 1972
Sandra Roe, 18, died 1971
Sara Roe, 22, died 1972
Serena Roe, 22, died 1980
Sherri Roe, 20, died 1975
Sheryl Roe, 23, died 1970
Susan Roe, 21, died 1992
Tammy Roe, 33, died 1971
Tara Roe, died 2005
Teresa Roe, 19, died 1974
Terri Roe, 43, died 1991
Vanessa Roe, 35, died 1973
Vicki Roe, 23, died 1971
Wanda Roe, died 2006
Wendy Roe, 23, died 1972
Yvonne Roe, 19, died 1999
Julia Rogers, 20, died 1973
Rhonda Rollinson, 32, died 1992
Allegra Roseberry, 41, died 1988
Sharonda Rowe, 17, died 1981
Rhonda Ruggiero, 29, died 1982
Stacy Ruckman, 23, died 1988
LaSandra Russ, 20, died 1971
Tamia Russell, 15, doed 2004
F.S., 16, died 1970
Stella Saenz, 42, died 1968
Angela Sanchez, 27, died 1993
Angela Satterfield, 23, died 1990
Carole Schaner, 37, died 1971
Angela Scott, 19, died 1979
Oriene Shevin, 34, died 2005
Gloria Small, 43, died 1978
Deloris Smith, 15, died 1979
Diane Smith, 23, died 1976
Laura Hope Smith, 22, died 2007
Margaret Smith, 24, died 1971
Teresa Smith, 31, died 1988
Laura Sorrels, 30, died 1988
Kathryn Strong, 26, died 1972
Jennifer Suddeth, 17, died 1982
Tami Suematsu, 19, died 1988
Yvonne Tanner, 22, died 1984
Michelle Thames, 18, died 1987
Ingrid Thomas, 28, died 1994
Magnolia Thomas, 36, died 1986
Hoa Thuy "Vivian" Tran, 22, died 2003
Elizabeth Tsuji, 21, died 1978
Cheryl Tubbs, 29, died 1975
Iris Valazquez, 20, died 1987
Cycloria Vangates, 32, died 1976
Veal, Latachie, 17, died 1991
Brenda Vise, 38, died 2002
Cheryl Vosseler, 17, died 1969
Gail Vroman, 20, died 1979
Pamela Wainwright, 37, died 1987
Lynette Wallace, 22, died 1975
Debra Walton, 35, died 1989
Nicey Washington, 26, died 2000
Sheila Watley, 31, died 1987
Diane Watson, 27, died 1987
Ingar Weber, 28, died 1991
Robin Wells, 27, died 1981
Chivon Williams, died 1996
Ellen Williams, 38, died 1985
Nichole Williams, 22, died 1997
Sandra Williams, 30, died 1984
Shirley Williams, 30, died 1980
Tanya Williamson, 28, died 1996
Carole Wingo, 22, died 1974
Virginia Wolfe, 33, died 1998
Darlene Wood, 23, died 1982
Gail Wright, 29, died 1986
Stacy Zallie, 20, died 2002)
and doubtless, many others like them, would attest if they could speak. They can't speak because they are all DEAD, from "safe & legal" induced abortions.

Their abortionists should be punished for double homicide because they intended to kill at least one innocent human being, and knew good and well that they were endangering the life of the mother as well.

Abortion does not cure or treat any actual disease or injury (pregnancy is not a disease; it is a normal function of a healthy reproductive system). It does deliberately take the life of an innocent person. Thus, it is not healthcare, but murder.

Pavone's advocacy of offering help to women faced with unplanned pregnancies is a no-brainer, whether killing the unborn is legal or not; however, his reticence to exempt women from punishment for their part in the deliberate murder of their children, just because those children are preborn, is sexist and unjust. Murder is murder, and she should be punished at least as an accessory, as should anyone else - of either sex - who can be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have pushed her to it, or participated in it. Proven extenuating circumstances might be accorded some leniency, however, such as minors pregnant by statutory rape, or incest...but then, it will be more difficult to establish the guilt of the perps of the rape/incest without the baby's DNA handy.
No wonder the proaborts milked the "rape/incest" thing for all it was worth in garnering public sympathy for Roe. Rapists and molesters get freedom from accountability, and the abortionists get more money killing off their children. What a deal.

Re: this "any of us", "none of us", etc. "standard" per Doug;

None of us would be here if we had not spent some time inside the body of another person, as all of us did. So if you take away legal protection from any of us who are spending time in the place naturally constructed for all of us to begin life, you jeopardize all of us who began our in that manner. QUALITY OF LIFE MINUS SANCTITY OF LIFE EQUALS GENOCIDE; discrimination based on age or place of residence(in or ex utero)doesn't change that. The fact that you weren't killed in utero does not alter the fact that had you been killed in utero, it is not a "mere foetus" that wouldn't be here now, but the person you are now. Got it? So deal with it already!

Oh, and check out Demographicwinter.com.

Interesting, I've never met a pro-deather yet who didn't use that "overcrowded planet" b.s. to try to justify his/her part in the mass slaughter of innocents...or one with the guts to leave the planet him/herself, rather than kill others to make it more accomodating for him/her. Not that I recommend suicide; but then I don't buy into Malthus/Erdreich's long discredited population bombscare. Just pointing out that with the Population Police, it's always about imposing his/her view, fatally, on others, for one's own comfort; the epitome of selfishness, injustice, hypocrisy and cruelty.

Posted by: jt at February 21, 2008 4:43 PM


...and yet, in spite of all this, abortion remains one of the safest procedures in the medical repetoire, with less than one maternal death per hundred-thousand abortions.

Posted by: SoMG at February 21, 2008 5:07 PM


According to you, who won't dare ask the obvious question,

What is safe about a procedure that kills over half of those subjected to it?!, lest you have to own up to and deal with innocent blood on your own hands, like a real man/honest human being.

Even if the unborn weren't human, it still does not cure, treat, or prevent any actual disease; so the "only" one maternal death per 100,000 you claim died needlessly, as did the 50 million innocent boys and girls legally slaughtered since Roe.

That said, I expect this "only" one in 100,000 is a very conservative estimate, based on these statements by current and former abortion profiteers:

“AN ABORTION KILLS THE LIFE OF A BABY AFTER IT HAS BEGUN. IT IS DANGEROUS TO YOUR LIFE AND HEALTH. IT MAY MAKE YOU STERILE, SO THAT WHEN YOU WANT A CHILD YOU CANNOT HAVE IT…”. - Planned Parenthood admitted this in a 1963 pamphlet pitting abortion as the "bad" population control cop against artificial "contraception" as the "good" cop. (This was after the discovery of antibiotics had done all that has been done up to now to actually reduce the physical complications of induced abortion, but it was before Roe v. Wade made this admission so much riskier to PP's bottom line than to women's health.

“TODAY IT IS POSSIBLE FOR ALMOST ANY PATIENT TO BE BROUGHT THROUGH PREGNANCY ALIVE, UNLESS SHE SUFFERS FROM. A FATAL DISEASE SUCH AS CANCER OR LEUKEMIA, AND IF SO, ABORTION WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO PROLONG, MUCH LESS SAVE.. THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER.” -Alan Guttmacher, former Planned Parenthood president, 1987.

“We were maiming or killing one out of every 500 women who came to us for an abortion.” - Carol Everett, former abortion profiteer.

“People do not realize that there are thousands of serious physical complications from abortion every year in this country.”--Dr. Bernard Nathanson, OB Gyn. – former American abortionist and abortion-rights advocate.

“In medical practice, there are few surgical procedures given so little attention and so underrated in its potential hazards as. abortion. It is a commonly held view that complications are inevitable.” Warren Hern, world renowned abortionist. Hern got jeered off the podium at a National Abortion Federation meeting some years ago for advocating the practice of responsible medicine to reduce legal abortion injuries/fatalities. He has since altered his priorities accordingly, but LEGAL ways of avoiding responsibility for botched abortion complications remains an ever-popular hot topic at these conventions.

According to the World Health Organization, 500 women die every day from these so-called “safe, simple procedures...needlessly and senselessly. Any doctor who isn't aware of these dangers has no business practicing medicine, nor any who is indifferent to them.

I expect that if you happened to be "only one" out of 100,000...or out of 2...killed needlessly, you'd object strenously enough if you could...but then, women's lives don't matter to you as much as your own. How chauvinistic is that?!


Posted by: jt at February 21, 2008 5:50 PM


yllas: The old appeal to pessimism is alive and well in Doug. The only absolute truth for Doug is Malthus.

Nonsense. The point is as I stated it. To act like abortion and not granting personhood to the unborn is a "slippery slope," is ludicrous given history and human nature.

And, if there is to be something that decreases the positive valuation placed on the lives of born people, it is likely to be population pressure itself. That was my suggestion. It is my opinion.

Posted by: Doug at February 21, 2008 8:54 PM


JT: They can't speak because they are all DEAD, from "safe & legal" induced abortions.

Nobody said there were zero deaths from legal abortion.

If you really think it is "unsafe," then that applies much more to continuing pregnancies and giving birth, where the danger to the woman is much, much greater.
......

Re: this "any of us", "none of us", etc. "standard" per Doug;

None of us would be here if we had not spent some time inside the body of another person, as all of us did.

Agreed.
......

So if you take away legal protection from any of us who are spending time in the place naturally constructed for all of us to begin life, you jeopardize all of us who began our in that manner.

No, not at all. Abortion is legal in the US, and the great majority of pregnancies are willingly continued now.
......

QUALITY OF LIFE MINUS SANCTITY OF LIFE EQUALS GENOCIDE;

That's just an incorrect bumper-sticker. "Genocide" does not apply. If and when there is some actual threat to us as a species or genus, it'd be much different, but it's not legal abortion that'd being on such a thing.
......

discrimination based on age or place of residence(in or ex utero)doesn't change that.

Again, just a bumper-sticker.
......

The fact that you weren't killed in utero does not alter the fact that had you been killed in utero, it is not a "mere foetus" that wouldn't be here now, but the person you are now.

Well sure, I wouldn't be here now. Fact is, there are always miscarriages and abortions occurring. And there are still plenty of people on earth and babies being born. In my lifetime alone, the population has more than doubled. We don't know how "good" or "bad" a person might result from a given pregnancy, but we do know that not all pregnancies are wanted.

Does your desire trump that of a pregnant woman? I say no.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 21, 2008 9:02 PM


Does your desire trump that of a pregnant woman? I say no.

Does the baby's life trump that of the pregnant woman's mere convenience? I say yes.

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 9:47 AM


Bethany, do you play Euchre?

Posted by: Doug at February 26, 2008 1:14 AM