Per Zell: Military shortages, Social Security crisis, and illegal immigration all linked to abortion

I'm surprised by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's surprise....

It hasn't gotten widespread play yet, but former U.S. Sen. Zell Miller made a little news this week in Macon when he declared that abortion has contributed to the military's manpower shortage, the Social Security crisis, and the flow of illegal immigrants into the United States.

zell.jpg"How could this great land of plenty produce too few people in the last 30 years? Here is the brutal truth that no one dares to mention: We're too few because too many of our babies have been killed," Miller said.

"Over 45 million since Roe v. Wade in 1973. If those 45 million children had lived, today they would be defending our country, they would be filling our jobs, they would be paying into Social Security," the former Georgia governor said. "Still, we watch as 3,700 babies are killed every single day in America. It is unbelievable that a nation under God would allow this."

If you doubt us, check out the video at the Macon Telegraph's web site. The comments were made at a Tuesday night fund-raiser for a local anti-abortion counseling center.

[Hat tip: Phil Magnan of Biblical Family Advocates]


Comments:

I'm not sure I agree with the premise. Aborted babies do not necessarily mean less people overall. My wife and I had two abortions and two children. If we had not had the abortions, we would have not had children later on. Either way, two kids.

I'm sure a lot of the women having abortions later have children. Not all, for sure, but there can't be a one to one relationship.


Then there's this:

"If those 45 million children had lived, today they would be defending our country, they would be filling our jobs, they would be paying into Social Security," the former Georgia governor said."


He didn't mention "filling our prisons, collecting welfare, or applying for student loans."

Posted by: Hal at March 12, 2007 12:08 PM


He forgot "dying for their country" as well.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 12, 2007 12:13 PM


Wait- I thought the government had an INTEREST in making women abort- why else would they withold all this great information on breast cancer being caused by abortion, and why is post abortion depression not reason enough to make abortion illegal??

Someone really needs to go to government officials and tell them that they got their cost-benefit analysis all wrong. Zell Miller brings up some fascinating variables. Maybe, when the government realizes it makes more profit by outlawing abortion than by allowing it, women can be declared second class citizens again!

And technically, there would be even MORE people than 45 million extra nowadays; Miller doesn't take exponential population growth into account. What great thigs this does is demonstrated by China at the moment. You go, Miller.

Posted by: Joe at March 12, 2007 12:20 PM


Since when is 300 million "too few"? Re-institute the draft, and you've got plenty of men and women under arms.

Liechtenstein has 35,000 people. Luxembourg has 465,000. Those countries get along just fine.

Do I even have to break out the graphs showing how our population is still soaring through the roof?

Posted by: Lando the Great at March 12, 2007 12:30 PM


Yes, Lando, let's break out UNBIASED population graphs.

Here's one: The CIA's World Factbook, which shows that of 222 countries, 93 are now having children at below replacement level (2.1) from which some will never recover.

Eastern and Western European nations have an additional crisis on their hands: While their indigenous people are not replacing themselves, their imported Muslims are.

Yes, google "population crisis" and see what you get, Lando. Not only is there an underpopulation crisis, there is a gender disparity crisis, thanks to abortion and infanticide.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 12, 2007 12:54 PM


Oh no, Muslims coming our way! Or what?

Posted by: Ingrid at March 12, 2007 1:04 PM


please do Landou ...,

and while you are at it read 'Boom, Bust and Echo' + the latest on population forecasts from the UN ... you will be working likely until 70yrs and then be killed (euthanized) ... the state cannot afford useless retirees! .... it's a comin' .... your rights, ... oh, someone found that these were attached to one's job - so when you retired ... you lost your rights (became expendable).

one more consequence, eh? Be sure to tell EAK!

Posted by: John McDonell at March 12, 2007 1:08 PM


There are too many people in my area. Way too many.

Every day more wooded lots are cut down for houses and strip malls. (Maybe we're getting off topic a bit.)


Posted by: gary at March 12, 2007 1:21 PM


Ingrid, 1:04p: You scoff. Name one country dominated by Muslims where you'd like to live.

And tell me, would you prefer to live in a U.S. dominated by Christians as it now is, or dominated by Muslims?

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 12, 2007 1:50 PM


Check out the graph here. We don't need to have 10 kids per family anymore. Most population crises stem from overcrowding and the draining of resources, not from political/demographic shifts.

http://www.cosmosmith.com/human_population_crisis.htm

I think living in a country dominated by any religious view would be just as unbearable.

Posted by: Lando the Great at March 12, 2007 2:06 PM


So following the logic of this article - more Muslims should have abortions and white American Christians should start popping out babies they cant afford to feed, educate, or insure so they can support our military in enforcing democracy (note: thats an oxymoron)all over the planet AND completely destroying the separation of church and state?

All you're missing in your picture is a white pillow case with eye holes cut out...

Posted by: Amanda at March 12, 2007 2:20 PM


Lando, I said unbiased source.

Every country is dominated by some religious or secular view and values.

I asked you to name a country with a Muslim majority that is worth living in. You couldn't.

I asked you to pick which U.S. you'd prefer, one dominated by Christians or Muslims. For you to infer the U.S. isn't currently dominated by Christians and Judeo-Christian values is either willfully or blindly ignorant.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 12, 2007 2:25 PM


Yes, Jill, obviously all forty-five million aborted fetuses would grow up and join the military.

Are you completely beyond the realms of reality? There are way more than forty-five million people in America right now who have been born, and not all of them are serving in the military.

I'm pretty sure you're on drugs.

Posted by: Ilana at March 12, 2007 2:26 PM


"I asked you to pick which U.S. you'd prefer, one dominated by Christians or Muslims. For you to infer the U.S. isn't currently dominated by Christians is either willfully or blindly ignorant."

I'd rather live in an America that isn't dominated by ANY religion. No religion has it all correct.

Posted by: Ilana at March 12, 2007 2:28 PM


I also choose a SECULAR U.S., religion has been used to ecuse some of the various atrocities all over the world, if the U.S. stays secular, we have no choice but to own up mistakes, we cant point to a book or God and say "He/it made us do it".

as for your comment as to whether someone would rather live in an Islamic or Christian country, it seems to me that you were insinuating that just because the etremists are in power in most of the middle east, that all Muslim leaderships would fail. please correct me if Im wrong, I hope I am, but insinuating that all Muslim countries would be/have been bad is ridiculous. Way back when I wouldve rather lived in a muslim country, because at that time they were FAR more tolerant then the Christians of the time period. You could practice any religion under their rule, unlike under the rule of ancient Christians. the roles have simply reversed in todays world, and I bet one day theyll switch again.

Posted by: Dan at March 12, 2007 2:45 PM


You know, there has been a number of ISLAMIC countries with female presidents (See here: http://womenshistory.about.com/od/rulers20th/a/women_heads.htm ) and it makes me wonder if those countries aren't better choices to live in.

To be honest with you: Right now, I wouldn't want to live in the U.S. at all.

Ingrid (proud liberal pro-choicer, and before I forget: proud German as well!)

Posted by: Ingrid at March 12, 2007 3:03 PM


The UAE wouldn't be so bad. I've always wanted to see Turkey, and Jordan has some nice real estate.

The majority of Muslims are like the majority of Christians. They want to live their lives the way they see fit. Who am I to deny them that?

Posted by: Lando the Great at March 12, 2007 6:12 PM


Stop deleting Amanda's comments, please.

Unless, of course, you feel that she actually makes valid points. If that is the case, feel free to censor to your heart's content.

Posted by: Lando the Great at March 12, 2007 6:45 PM


Jill - you have now deleted my perfectly respectful question

TWICE.

Third time is the charm maybe?

Do you support Muslims having abortions?

Why is that so hard to answer that you feel the need to delete it? Its a yes or no question.

Posted by: Amanda at March 12, 2007 6:45 PM


Amanda, as I wrote you in a private email, calling people idiots is off-base, which is why I deleted your comments. They most certainly were not "perfectly respectful."

And asking ridiculous questions doesn't help your case either.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 12, 2007 6:51 PM


Hal may be right in that it's not a 1 to 1 deal, but 35 years later, some earlier aborted lives would be raising teenage kids by now.

and I'd rather support them on welfare than mourn them. Most would be positive contributing memmbers of society just as most of us are.

And Lando, how do you square re-instituting the draft with bodily autonomy? Seriously, if it's not OK tell someone that they can't kill their progeny, how is it OK to order them to put on a Chemical suit and decontaminate a Bio-warfare site?

Posted by: Papa Squash at March 12, 2007 7:18 PM


Hmmm...so we have a 6% unemployment rate but we have to few people to take jobs? You think the social security problem isn't because we have to many people from the baby boomer generation retiring it's because we have to few people? And what affect does the amount of people in the country have to do with poor people from other countries coming here for money?

And again, Do you support Muslims having abortions?

Posted by: Anthony at March 12, 2007 7:20 PM


"And Lando, how do you square re-instituting the draft with bodily autonomy? Seriously, if it's not OK tell someone that they can't kill their progeny, how is it OK to order them to put on a Chemical suit and decontaminate a Bio-warfare site?"

Sarcasm. I'm against the draft for a variety of reasons. I am also in the military. I joined of my own free will, thank you.

Oh yeah, and Jill:

Do you support Muslims having abortions?

Posted by: Lando the Great at March 12, 2007 7:20 PM


"Sarcasm. I'm against the draft for a variety of reasons. I am also in the military. I joined of my own free will, thank you."

No, Thank You.
You score one for consistency.

Phil

Posted by: Papa Squash at March 12, 2007 7:53 PM


I was surprised by the question, "Do you support Muslims having abortions?"

But it is indeed the logical response of an abortion proponent to what I pointed out, that while eastern and western Eurpean indigenous populations are declining to the extent they are not replacing themselves, immigrant Muslim populations in the same countries are rising.

A pro-lifer would never consider your ridiculous conclusion: abort Muslims. You only demonstrate the difference between the Culture of Life and Culture of Death.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 13, 2007 7:04 AM


There was no conclusion, Jill. People simply asked you a question which you repeatedly deleted and avoided. Your silence on the subject for several hours and your refusal to answer the question until you had constructed your response in such a way to skew the conversation and turn it around on those asking is very, very telling.

The logical response of the abortion proponents posting on your blog was NEVER to suggest that Muslims have more abortions and you know that - they were asking if that was what YOU suggested since you were the one who made the suggestion that Muslim populations were increasingly too rapidly for your tastes.

Culture of life vs. Culture of death? I think we're seeing a Culture of bigotry cloked in the shadows here.


Posted by: Joy at March 13, 2007 7:24 AM


Joy, only a pro-abort could possibly think to ask such a question, which tellingly shows where your minds go first - to death.

I deleted the posts because they included taunts and name-calling and developed into spam.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 13, 2007 7:33 AM


I can't say I read all the posts so I dont know how respectful they are, however it is a valid question. the tone of the writing suggested that you dont want the muslim population to grow, when you say that you are pro-life. this would include muslims, and I would think that you would be happy that the muslim population is growing because that would mean they are choosing life over abortion, which would be a premise of the pro life movement would it not? Just curious.

Ooh and to say "pro-aborts" (whoever those are) must immediately think of death is ridiculous.

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 13, 2007 9:48 PM


A CALL TO ACTION AS A HUSBAND,
AND FATHER, AND GOD-FEARING CHRISTIAN.

James 5:6:
"You have condemned and killed innocent people, who do not resist you."

Rev 2:18-29
"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come. To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations - 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery - just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
________________________

I have had enough of Christians who do nothing against abortion or even worse are pro-abortion.

I will be silent no more..............at the risk of losing friends and being ostracized and labeled, I am shouting on behalf of the Lord at those of you my Christian brothers and sisters who have refused to take up the power that you have been given to make a difference. Can you hear my passion, can you hear my plea? It’s time to wake up before it is too late and we are left in ruins.

Are these unborn children not innocent? What sin have they committed? Is the Lord an imbecile that he would agree with their murder? If you have the mind of Christ, why do you allow and condone such depravity by your inaction, complacency, acceptance, apathy, and cowardice? Are children aborted in heaven? Are souls aborted in heaven? Is the Lord's prayer just an easy memory verse that we soothe our seared consciences with? What of "on earth as it is in heaven" don't we understand? If any of us saw a child standing at the edge of a cliff which of us would not risk all to save that child from falling? Which of us, seeing a child running into traffic, would not drop everything to rescue that child even at risk of life? What am I missing here? How in the world is abortion any different? It's somebody else's problem and I've got too many problems of my own. Why, because it's hidden, it's easily swept under the rug? It's easily ignored? It's unseen? You can’t see the Lord but you base your whole life on evidence of things unseen.

Let's stop denying the holocaust of abortion. A good God can't be pleased with us. An unblemished bride doesn't kill her children, a Jezebel bride does. And the dogs will eat that demon bride as well. If this many children were being lost due to a disease or accidents or you name it for any reason could you imagine the absolute outrage of people? My goodness, we went to war over 3,000 (less than 1/10,000th of 50,000,000) people being killed on 9/11. We tragically lose a few children each year to pool drownings and we enact laws for pool barriers, we admonish, we warn, we teach people CPR. The Iraq war has been going on for five years and we've lost about 3,000 brave soldiers. Where's the comparison? If we had a war that lasted 33 years and lost 50,000,000 soldiers and civilians that would be considered cataclysmic. The politicians would have been long voted out of office. But we ignore the silent voices of children standing at the edge of annihilation in what should be the safest place in the universe next to heaven, inside a mother's body. Are you in tears yet? I hope so, because those tears need to fuel your outrage, they need to motivate you to do something.

The truth is we have been at war. Not only have 50,000,000 children been killed but a great theft has occurred. Mothers and fathers were denied children. Brothers were denied brothers and sisters, and sisters were denied sisters and brothers. Grandmothers and grandfathers, aunts and uncles, and cousins were all denied. If an attorney took this case the damages for loss of affection would be incalculable. Imagine the suffering that was borne by our Savior who knew these sins would be committed.. Do we want to trample on His Blood by our inaction?

Church, you might say you are praying for abortion te end. Well, are your prayers being answered? We still have abortion in this country after 33 years of prayer. Do you think the Lord hears these prayers? Remember, one condition to healing our land is that His people turn from their wicked ways and seek His face. Could it be that because our prayers don't match our actions and the Lord is not pleased with our do-nothing attitudes the condition is not met? Remember, faith without works is dead. So let's not waste our time praying about ending abortion if we don’t do anything to end abortion. We should be working for and supporting candidates who are actively and proven pro-life. We should vote out politicians who support abortion in any way, shape or form at every level of government, down to the school board members, for they have a way of infecting the young. Speak in outrage against it as if a strongman was trying to break into your home. Fight, fight, fight, and we can win this.

Demand that your Pastors speak out against it. If your Pastor supports abortion or the candidates that are pro-abortion, confront him to repent, and, if he does not, kick him out of the pulpit for he is a false prophet. Let him get a glimpse of how it feels to be wrenched out of the womb of the pulpit; a place of protection, comfort, and privilege. This goes for deacons too. I believe that if the church in this country stood up and shouted to the world to end abortion, it would happen overnight, because the Lord would hear and answer that prayer. Remember the Lord's words, "don't call me Lord, Lord, and not do the will of His Father in heaven".

Is abortion the Father's will? Why would the Lord begin a life process only to have it terminated by human choice? It makes no sense. Abortion on demand must be stopped or we will lose our country. Forget about the terrorists. We have the Lord Almighty to worry about. Why should the good Lord protect the United States when the church majora in this country won't lift a collective finger to protect the most vulnerable of our world in the sacred place of the womb where the Lord himself knits together a human life? Make no mistake, abortion is a direct affront to the Lord himself and the actions of His intent. What amazes me is His goodness and grace in not exercising judgement against the American Church. However, the Lord is not mocked and he will not restrain himself forever. 9/11 was the writing on the wall, the warning shot over our heads. Will we ignore it?

Wake up church, for this is part of the great deception and apostasy that is prophesied about in the last days! Don't buy into it, don't be a part of it, and don't support it by doing nothing. The world sees our inaction cloaked in silence and apathy and what does that do the message we preach? And don't tell me that this does not restrain the Gospel. We lose credibility in the world because of our cowardice on this issue. I confess to you right now that I will have no part of this and I disavow myself of any inaction. I would give my life to end abortion in this country. Judgment begins with the church. As Martin Luther nailed his 99 theses to the doors of the church in protest to the corruption in his midst, I nail this call to action to the doors of your hearts. Do you hear the knock, no, the pounding on the door?

It's time to reform our inaction against this perversion. If we have done nothing to try to stop the silent holocaust we are in part responsible for allowing 50,000,000 murders of unborn children to occur during our short stay on this planet and we must repent now. The Lord will require us to give an account. Will our answer be, "I was too busy"? Will it be, "it's a personal decision"? Will it be, "it's a choice"? Will it be, "we need to keep the government out of our bedrooms"?

Abortion is pure unadulterated murder and believers in the Lord Jesus Christ need to stand firmly against it. Groups like NOW, NARAL, Ms. Magazine, and Planned Parenthood are the true terrorists of our age. Their brazen promotion of one of the most heinous crimes being committed in our world today, will bring God's judgement to our country if we just sit and do nothing and it will be deserved. Thank God for the remnant now engaged in the battle but are largely ignored by the church who is drunk with the delights of the world. As the Lord was asked to restrain judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah if there were a few righteous left in the city, these courageous souls keep the Lord from reigning terror on America.

Pastors, you know all this. Why do most of you do nothing? You want purpose in your lives? Here it is....please wake up. These same pro-abortion groups would have you protest about cruelty to cockroaches being eaten a on a reality show or rant about halting the use of animals for medical research or how pigs are warehoused in pens or how gays will lose benefits if we support an amendment to the constitution to protect marriage. I mean why are we even having this conversation? Have we gone mad? A school in Pennsylvania just took their school on a field trip to an abortion clinic. The kids wore t-shirts promoting the clinic. This is utter madness. Had the Nazis been successful during WWII, could you imagine a Hitler regime school taking their kids on a field trip to a crematorium? Maybe the spirit of the Nazis did win, I mean look at what's going on here.

Tell your Pastors to stop being intimidated by the IRS and the threat of losing their 501c3 status if they endorse proven pro-life candidates and speak out against candidates who support abortion. If this is muzzling the Gospel either fight to change the law or change the tax exempt status of your church. This 501c3 prohibition bill was attached to an appropriation in the 1950's by then Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson and was never debated or had any oversight. Why has this muzzle on God's word never been seriously challenged? Look what satan's subtle deception has done to our country. Sorry Pastors, you are directly to be held responsible for your laziness, your inaction, and your Baalam-like double mindedness. If Paul did not use the government, i.e., in his appeal to Caesar (at risk of death) would the Gospel have been opened up to the world? If Esther did not risk her life in her appeal to king Xerxes would the Jews have survived as a race? Did Moses have a warrant out for his arrest and still appeal to Pharaoh to let his people go? Did Daniel resist the declaration not to worship the living God because of fear of death? And what did God do to Cain when he murdered his innocent brother for selfish reasons? Ad infinitum....can you imagine what the Lord thinks when he sees a Pastor who refuses to use the pulpit to speak out against abortion or endorse a candidate who is anti-abortion because they are afraid of losing their 501c3 status?

These same Pastors talk about how the Lord is their source? What a disgrace. I challenge you Pastors who have failed due to moral cowardice not to speak out against abortion. And for you Pastors who support political candidates that are pro-abortion, don't be fooled by your large buildings and million dollar budgets. These are not signs of approval from the Lord and your judgement will be even more severe. And for you Pastors who are enamored with the celebrity of these baby killing politicians. You have them in your churches and lead your flocks to condemnation in your implied approval by your acknowledgment of their presence at Sunday services. Does not the word say not to even associate with people such as these? Don't tell me you're trying to reach them. You have five lunches per week in which you can spend with them without sending the wrong message to your congregation. Talk to them once and then twice and then bring someone with you to talk to them. Admonish them to change. If they don't repent by changing their policies, dust off your boots and flee the destruction that will come to them.

Males stop being wimps. Stand up to the Jezebel spirit that compromises your manhood and cast it out. If you watch pornography, stop. If you are having an affair, stop. If you have impregnated a women, take responsibility and pay for it and support the mother and child. If you are not being the priest in your home, start. Change your future by what you do today. Become a man.

And, if appealing to your consciences and your hearts isn't getting through, let's talk to your wallet. There have been 50,000,000 abortions in this country since 1973. That's 1,515,515 every year. That's 4,151 every day, 173 every hour, almost 3 every minute over the last 33 years. That's 1,000,000 in each state over the last 33 years. That's an average of 30,303 in each state per year for the last 33 years. At an average cost of $300.00 per abortion, $15,000,000,000 (that's 15 billion dollars) have been spent killing our future, committing societal suicide. This does not count the costs of products not purchased, taxes that have not been paid, etc., etc., etc. Who's gonna pay for your social security check every month all you thumb-sucking, spoiled brat baby-boomer Christians? Maybe the 5,000 illegal immigrants that come across our border everyday? Which is our government's way of replacing the children that have been murdered.

We have lost 50,000,000 human beings. The Lord had a plan for each one of those children. Maybe a Billy Graham, or a Madame Curie, or Albert Einstein or just a plain old nice Joe. What right did we have in killing all these innocent children? Yes, our hope is in the Lord Jesus Christ. The miracle is that He will forgive even this, but ONLY if we repent. God is not a fool. Don't think we can keep on practicing sin after receiving knowledge of the truth and expect to meet a happy God at our last breath...for he is a consuming fire and we should be weeping for what we have allowed to occur in this country over the last 33 years. Repent now while you still have breath...please...please....please.....

Let's stop enabling those we are responsible for, our children, and tell them the truth about the lie of abortion, and lead them through trials to God's blessings. It starts by making abortion illegal again. And for those women who do get pregnant who otherwise would have had an abortion, let's help them by starting new ministries and supporting existing ones, not condemning them Amen?

Every abortion affects each one of us because there is a God in heaven and while He is loving and forgiving, He is also just. Since killing of the innocent is always condemned in the Bible, I don't see how God will ignore this forever.

Here's the truth of abortion:
I do not believe that any abortion is justifiable. God is not an imbecile. Rather, it is a test of faith, no matter what situation we find ourselves in. Married, not married, poor, rich, whatever; God has a beautiful outcome ready for all of us if we just trust and abide. For any Pastor to support any abortion, in any form negates his ministry and declares it null and void before the great cloud of witnesses and the Lord himself. Heaven cries at every abortion and we should too.

Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator.

Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, to show forth His glory, it negates God as redeemer.

Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy.

Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it's earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it's earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive, abortion's desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness, decay, death.

Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it's solution; annihilation, it's goal; death, it's dream; breaking God's heart, it's vision, satan's ultimate power. Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of satan are everywhere to be found in its performance; abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom.

Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God.

Yes, abortion is satan's feeble attempt at killing God himself, for abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him......for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.
It did not work at Calvary. It will not work here.

Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Holy Spirit have mercy...........and let any that need to repent and confess do it now, finding grace and forgiveness, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

I have written this essay speaking the truth in love. I have focused on truth and not political correctness. If some are offended, that is not my intent. My intent is to cause you to think about this to a level where you have never been to . Some will hate me, however, if one person's mind is changed and an innocent human being is saved from destruction, then the angels in heaven will rejoice. What more reward could a mortal soul ask for then to have been able to move heaven itself?

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 14, 2007 1:40 AM


I am curious to know how many of you on the pro-life side of this debate have actually been through an abortion. For many reasons, this is sometimes just the only option a mother can see.

Posted by: SamanthaT Author Profile Page at March 14, 2007 9:47 AM


Samantha, thanks for the short voice of sanity after such a long and misguided attack by a crazy man.

He's just upset that his god isn't the god he thinks he is. Obviously his god doesn't mind the abortions so much, so what is "his man" to believe now? His world must be a frightening place.

peace.

Posted by: Hal at March 14, 2007 2:11 PM


Hal and Samantha,

Murder is NEVER an option unless it's done in self-defense. How in the world can an innocent, defenseless unborn child be a threat to anyone?

I can assure you that I am very sane.

If I am frightened, it's for you, sir, who someday will face the Father of Lights in whom there is no shadow, a holy God.

In a previous post you admitted that you and your wife had two abortions and then had two children after that as if the two that were aborted were tissue paper or something.

I feel very sorry for you because you will never know what could have been with your children you did not allow to breath their first breath. Well, I've got a story for you about my courageous wife:

Eleven years ago, with four children, my beautiful wife became pregnant with our fifth child. I was 42, she was 40. About four months into this pregnancy, during a routine ultrasound, the doctors discovered that she had a mass on her ovary. Because of the nature of the mass, the prognosis was not good. To add to this, the same ultrasound indicated that our son did not have proper kidney formation. We were told by the doctors that they recommended a complete hysterectomy. This, of course, would have killed our son.

At the time, we were being viciously attacked by satan himself, and looking back I now know why. We had almost lost our 11 year old son the year before to a botched appendectomy that resulted in peritonitis. He went from 85 pounds to 50 pounds in two weeks. He looked like a holocaust victim. The strain of this event hurt us financially and emotionally, almost beyond recovery and any strength we possessed was not our own. The roller coaster of almost losing our 11 year old, finding out my wife was pregnant, dealing with the social repercussions/stigma of having a child rather late in life and then finding out about my wifes life threatening situation was a strain. I actually had a friend tell me that this was my way of keeping Ginny barefoot and pregnant and a Pastor actually encouraging the abortion. I have to confess that when confronted with the bleak reality of either losing my wife or the baby, the thought of an hysterectomy induced abortion did not seem so bad. I repented of that long ago.

The alternative was for my wife to have surgery to remove the mass which we were told could have induced the birth process and of course, at 4 months gestation, made survival almost impossible. She decided to have the surgery to remove the mass and not the baby. Her thoughts were that if the mass was malignant to halt the procedure, close her up, have the baby at nine months and deal with the cancer after the pregnancy. Now here was a situation where an abortion may have been justifiable. My wife took the position that no abortion is justifiable and put her life on the line. Here's the conclusion: She had the surgery, the mass was not malignant and she is now healthy. Despite the odds that birth should have been induced by the surgery the baby survived.

We now have a beautiful 10 year old son Daniel who flies like an eagle and runs like the wind (Isaiah 40:31). He has scored 30 running touchdowns and passed for 10 touchdowns in two seasons of playing tackle football as a quarterback. He can throw a baseball at almost 65 mph. He is a straight A student who wants to be a world evangelist. I believe he will be a prophetic voice against abortion. And our then 11 year old? Well he ended up being a superb high school football, basketball and track star who was recruited all over the country to play Div. 1 college football. He chose to attend ASU on an academic scholarship and is on the Dean's List in the School of Engineering waiting to graduate in June of 2007.

This is how God works my friends. Heres the lesson: The Lord tests us to our limits, then rewards our faithfulness. This is what this taught me about abortion.......the temptation to abortion as a way of solving a difficult problem is a test. And many of us fail it because of and a direct result of the failure of our government to protect innocent life and the failure of the church to teach and speak against it forcefully and without compromise.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 14, 2007 4:25 PM


I am happy for the recovery of your wife and the wonderful life of your 10 year old son. I'm glad you and your wife had the choice to make those difficult decisions. I'm glad my wife and I also had choices. All is well.


Posted by: Hal at March 14, 2007 4:30 PM


His Man,

What a beautiful testimony to the truth, to faith and to "real" marital love.

God bless you, and your amazing family. If everyone in the world had the courage and decency that you do, poor Jill would be out of a job. Sorry Jill, but I'd be glad to see you go...if the reason was that you were no longer needed because a cure for collective insanity had been found.

A toast: To His Man and His Family. In a world where the real threat to the globe is not air pollution, but spiritual pollution, you are a breath of fresh air. Cheers!
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 14, 2007 4:38 PM


Hal,

Please don't use the story of my wife's courage to twist, no, I mean pervert, it's meaning as to advocacy for "choice". In fact, my wife taught me alot about courage when the thought of losing her was almost too much too think of. My utter cowardice and unmanliness in the moment came to light and I have since vowed never to ever think abortion is ever justifiable for any reason in any circumstance again.

Sir, this was not about a choice. This was about doing the right thing even if it meant one's own death. If my wife had chosen the hystorectomy which would have resulted in the death of our son, it still would have been wrong and damnable. My wife and the doctor who recommended the hystorectomy, knowing that it would certainly kill the baby, would share equal blame.

You see, the only person who could sanely risk their own life to save another as my wife did is one who knew without a shadow of a doubt that even if she died, all would be well. That's my wife. For she knew that she knew that she knew that there is a Lord in heaven who we will all stand before someday and that she trusted Him more than life itself and with her very being.

His Word is saturated with warnings and admonishments for us to choose life and not death. Just because there's a choice for either doesn't not make them morally equivalent or morally nuetral.

It's a much different story, however, for our government to make legal the murder of an innocent child. Technically we all have choices. The legality of these choices can change at the whim of men, however, the morality of these choices does not change because God is not accountable to any man. If He says something is wrong, then it's wrong. Murder was wrong when Cain killed Abel about 6,000 years ago, it's wrong now, and will be wrong into eternity. God will not change His mind about this for this would make Him a lunatic and an imbecile and the universe would implode.

I could choose to work or be lazy, eat all day and get fat or work out, smoke and risk getting cancer, forgive or murder, be faithful or cheat, etc., etc., etc. Just because I have the ability to make a choice doesn't give me any right to make the wrong thing that I choose a right thing. Wrong is always wrong and right is always right. Just because you can legally choose to have an abortion at this time in our country's wretched judicial history, does not make abortion right. One is always wrong and the other is always right.

So, Hal, cut the total self-and-other-flim-flam and get with reality. All is not well with you, in fact, the very opposite is true and you know this. You've got to because I know that God does not just let us get by with this stuff, becaseu He love us. While you still have breath, simply admit that abortion is murder, ask Jesus Christ to forgive you, forgive yourself and go on and stop risking the loss of your eternal soul. Lead your wife to do the right thing also, if your man enough. She will follow a real man. The choice is yours, but there is only one sane choice, and that's life!!!!! Spending thousands of dollars on shrinks to help you deal with the guilt of this is absolutely stupid.

Hal, I was in the operating room when my wife's abdomen was opened up. I saw my son in the sac at 4 months gestation. There is no way anyone could tell me that this glob of blood, cells and tissue wasn't a human being. To try to convince myself that this was just an "it" I would have had to be capable of utter self-deception, yes, I would have to be literally insane to be willing to deceive myself of this to this degree. My heart would have had to turn to stone or as the Bible calls it, allow it to be hardened to believe that this wasn't God's handiwork. I believe that if I could do this I would be capable of any atrocity imaginable, especially if the "choice" involved some sort of self-preservation.

Let go..................

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 12:10 AM


"Over 45 million since Roe v. Wade in 1973. If those 45 million children had lived, today they would be defending our country, they would be filling our jobs, they would be paying into Social Security," the former Georgia governor said. "Still, we watch as 3,700 babies are killed every single day in America. It is unbelievable that a nation under God would allow this."...

Defending our country?[ So, every single one of those 45 million children would join the military, really? Hmmmm... pro-Life and Pro-War, interesting combination.

Filling our jobs, you say? My father has been working for the same company for 35 years now, over the past few years they have gotten rid of thousands of jobs, that's thousands of people
out of work. When the time came that he would be losing his job, he had been working there long enough to retire, but he was not old enough, so now he works some some cruddy job, with a huge cut in pay, terible hours, and no union. Keep in mind there are so many companies and Corporation in The US that have done this, are you telling me those aported children could have taken those jobs... gee, lucky them.

Paying into Social Security? I must have forgotten how amazing Social Security is in the country right now, thanks for reminding me Jill.

And hmmm, do you think some of those 45 million children could have been "real" men? You know, the "real" men who would have beat their wives, if she had got an abortion, those really men you mentioned in an earlier article, what an awful lose.

Posted by: Loreal at March 15, 2007 12:45 AM


Loreal,

Let me try and I mean try to grasp what you are saying, if that is even possible given your level of reasoning. I mean, I don't know if I should feel sorry for you because of your Dad's situation or your own concern for your future earning potential or lack thereof, or because of your utter lack of logic. (The sins of the father visits to the third generation...oh, never mind). Perhap all three concerns are related. I mean, you are typical of the core of people that think abortion is OK, right?

I don't think Zell was trying to say that all 45 million aborted babies would have ended up being in the military or doing any ONE thing. I know this...if we had just another 450,000 in the military, that's 1 per cent of 45,000,000 in case you failed basic aritmetic, I think that lunatic over in Iran wouldn't even think of threatening us.

You forget that each one of those murdered children would have had diapers bought for them (sorry tree huggers), food grown for them (go Hawkeyes, Cornerhuskers, John Deere, etc.), schools built for them (go teachers, masons, carpenters, bricklayers, steelworkere, electricians, architects, engineers), colleges built for them (ditto plus professors), books made for them to read (sorry again tree huggers), computers built for them (and Bill doesn't even need the money), cars to drive (go Pistons, never), ad infinitum, infinitum, infinitum. The US would have even had to print more money, which means the money supply would have increased, which means that our economy would have been even bigger than it is. Gee, your Dad might have had something to show for his hard work over 35 years. Heck, he probably could have gotten a new job at the Mint the governemnt never built in your town.

Do you think your Dad is where he is because maybe, just maybe there's just not enough customers? A lot of 'em are dead because of Roe v. Wade. So instead of each one of those 45M aborted babies earning and spending an average of 2M over their lifetimes (do the math), they we're killed so Planned Parenthood and their killer doctors could make a few hundred dollars on each murder and some of that paid for by, guess who...right...you and me and, oh, your poor Dad). Now there's stroke of genius for ya.

And what do you have to look forward to grasshoppa? Yeah, you got it, two, maybe one worker(s) supporting every gray beard because, you guessed it, we killed the work force.

By the way, statistics have it that a little more than half of those 45,000,000 aborted babies would have been females....so, that's only some of the 22,500,000 or 22,000,000 or so "real men" that would have beat their wives. Of course, there would have had to be a few crazy females mixed in too, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just men are wicked. Just think of all the social services jobs this would have created. (Got to look on the bright side). I mean, they might have all been Democrats and, oh sorry, we'd all really be in deep you know what if that had happened. I forgot, 45,000,000 men in prison don't vote. Sorry Hill, you'll have to keep pandering to anyone who'll believe you're garbage.

Simply brilliant..............

Abortion is murder and we are reaping and will reap even more of the destruction we have sown.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 1:50 AM


" I know this...if we had just another 450,000 in the military, that's 1 per cent of 45,000,000 in case you failed basic aritmetic, I think that lunatic over in Iran wouldn't even think of threatening us."

Sure, because everybody in the rest of the world is so impressed with the American military and their - I don't know, some thousand?! - dead soldiers. And the way they handled the whole "Iraqi freedom" thing - we'd all be on our knees and begging you to protect us if you had 450,000 more soldiers to send into a useless war [/sarcasm]

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 3:33 AM


Ingrid,

Those "some thousand" soldiers are dead because they believed in what they were doing. They volunteered, because, unlike so many people today, they believe that some things are dying for. They died for your right to kill your babies. They died for my right to call abortion murder. They died so that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis would be able to sleep at night. They died for a reason. And they died by their own choice.

You should be on your knees thanking them. But the "hollywood" mentality is so rampant in this society that you don't bat an eye at taking 50,000,000 innocent lives against their will, yet send up the "sighs, mourning and weeping" when a thousand men die to ensure your right to sigh, mourn and weep.

You better hope that the world is catching on to the impression our "American Military" is making.
Because as Jill said earlier, and as Father Corapi said often, in a few years, Europe will be a Muslim continent. And if you think living with "christian" oppression is bad, wait til you are forced to live in a nation that follow Islam. I'm not bashing Muslims here...just pointing out that they don't exactly define "free" living.

Father Corapi also points out that we have become a terribly "soft" nation, afraid to enter into any fight worth entering. We don't have the passion or staying power to endure til the end. He says that if World War II happened today and it was up to our generation to fight it, we all be speaking German.
By the same token, if we don't wake up, 20 years from now we might all be worshipping Allah.

Rush Limbaugh (not someone I often quote) says that since it is mostly liberals who have abortions, and conservatives who have numerous children, it's only a matter of time till liberals disappear by their own hand, and the country is left with all conservatives.

So wake up you guys. If you don't stop killing your children, and refuse to fight for freedom, one day the few of you who are left with all be under Muslim rule.

MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 5:46 AM


"Those "some thousand" soldiers are dead because they believed in what they were doing. They volunteered, because, unlike so many people today, they believe that some things are dying for. They died for your right to kill your babies. They died for my right to call abortion murder."

First, many of those men or women volunteered, because they had bills to pay. There are many people in the US who only want to join for a couple of years so they can pay for college later. That does NOT mean, they believe that "some things are worth dying for." If their parents were poor, young people often believe the army to be their only hope.

Second: None of them died for any of my rights, because as I've said, I'm a proud German.

Third: I'm not that sure if they really believed in what they were doing - you know, critics of their Commander in Chief are not treated like heroes, when a nation's army fights a (completely useless) war.

" He says that if World War II happened today and it was up to our generation to fight it, we all be speaking German."
Right... because Hitler's focus wasn't Europe. No, Germany wanted to conquer the states, that's why he started a war with Russia. Please, I'm so sick of this BS. If you have real arguments and an idea of modern history, we can discuss this.


"I'm not bashing Muslims here..." No, you're absolutely not: "And if you think living with "christian" oppression is bad, wait til you are forced to live in a nation that follow Islam."; "By the same token, if we don't wake up, 20 years from now we might all be worshipping Allah." So NOT bashing Muslims. Just insulting them, degrading their religion, but not bashing, you're right.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 8:49 AM


His Man,thank you for a wonderful post.45 million abortions? This country has gone to hell.The devil must be laughing with great delight.Remember that Satan comes to rob,kill,steal and destroy.He's managed to do it all, and he has left quite a few of these women so bad off,they were turned over to a reprobate mind.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 9:15 AM


MK-Well put!!!

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 9:27 AM


"Ingrid, 1:04p: You scoff. Name one country dominated by Muslims where you'd like to live."

I know many people who live in Muslim countries and "like" it. Because they are missionaries, and that is what God wants them to do. I would hope that as a person who calls herself a Christian, you would be familiar with such people. How many Muslims do you actually know? I know many who excel in their studies as doctors, chemists, engineers. I hope you dont need an emergency double bipass one day from a Muslim doctor who says, "Oops, sorry, I have to go save people who actually think that I have a right to be in this country."

And as for all this raging about how God will condemn pro-choice advocates and such, I just feel like you dont really have a single clue what you are talking about. Not only is abortion never once mentioned in the Bible, but I serve a God who forgives anything--even ignorant quoting of His word, even hypocrisy. So if you really want to help women who are considering, having, and recovering from abortions, educate yourselves about their situations and volunteer at your church or abortion clinic or SOMETHING besides getting on the internet and condemning them all to Hell!

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 9:42 AM


"Ingrid, 1:04p: You scoff. Name one country dominated by Muslims where you'd like to live."

I know many people who live in Muslim countries and "like" it. Because they are missionaries, and that is what God wants them to do. I would hope that as a person who calls herself a Christian, you would be familiar with such people. How many Muslims do you actually know? I know many who excel in their studies as doctors, chemists, engineers. I hope you dont need an emergency double bipass one day from a Muslim doctor who says, "Oops, sorry, I have to go save people who actually think that I have a right to be in this country."

And as for all this raging about how God will condemn pro-choice advocates and such, I just feel like you dont really have a single clue what you are talking about. Not only is abortion never once mentioned in the Bible, but I serve a God who forgives anything--even ignorant quoting of His word, even hypocrisy. So if you really want to help women who are considering, having, and recovering from abortions, educate yourselves about their situations and volunteer at your church or abortion clinic or SOMETHING besides getting on the internet and condemning them all to Hell!

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 9:44 AM


Ingrid,

My son is a United Sates Air Force Academy graduate and now Captain in the US Air Force flying 12 hour missions every other day in the Middle East to protect among other things, spoiled brat baby killer cynics.

No, he didn't go into the military to pay bills. He could have gone to any US college on full scholarship and have any job in the world he wanted. No instead he went into the military because of a higher calling to serve others....something baby killer abortionist murderers could never understand.

Be careful about quoting Scripture. Isreal was severly punished by God because of their sacrificing of children to the false God Molech. And don't blaspheme God by trying to make people think he approves of abortion by not specifically mentioning it in the Bible. No God won't forgive anything. He will forgive anything that's confessed and repented of. That means every abortionist would need to confess that they sinned and then turn away from that sin to be forgiven. Read the 10th chapter of Hebrews.

It is absolutely ludicrous and ignorant to not see from a Biblical persepective how God values life in the womb from the statement of David that he was knit in his mother's womb to the story of the struggle in the womb between Esau and Jacob and how Jesus' cousin John the Baptist lept in his mother Elizabeth's womb. Oh, and all that talk about how each of us was fearfully adn wonderfully made. It would be very wise of you to really study the Bible yourself and not spew and spread lies you've heard for we will be accountable to God for every word we utter and write.

And, oh, uh the Bible talks about how Jesus was CONCEIVED by the Power of the Holy Spirit. In other words He was God in the womb before he ever took a breath. Thank God Jesus wasn't conceived today because people like you would think that an unmarried, engaged Mary, who was now pregnant by someone other than her fiance Joseph would have justification to kill God Himself. Now even Herod, that evil maniac ruler, who tried to kill the Savior by killing all male children two years and younger didn't even think of killing pregnant mothers. No, the Bible doesn't talk about abortion specifically because some things are so evil that they are not even to be spoken of. I think even the most evil of evil people who did really bad things in the Bible had a sense that abortion was probably the lowest thing anyone could do. And Jesus' strictect and harshest of warnings was to those who would hurt childrn. Something about better to have a millstone around your neck and being thrown into the sea than to hurt one of these little ones. You should really, really be terrified of your present state.

Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator.

Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, to show forth His glory, it negates God as redeemer.

Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy.

Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it's earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it's earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive, abortion's desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness, decay, death.

Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it's solution; annihilation, it's goal; death, it's dream; breaking God's heart, it's vision, satan's ultimate power.

Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of satan are everywhere to be found in its performance; abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom.
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God.

Yes, abortion is satan's feeble attempt at killing God himself, for abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him......for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.

It did not work at Calvary. It will not work here.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 11:15 AM


His Man,Your posts are true and beautiful.The truth is that most abortions are not the result of rape but rather selfishness.I've put myself into this position before[unplanned pregnancy] Satan came knocking.I heard the lies too. Kill that baby, and you can have your life back.This will ruin your life.You cannot do this. What will people think? Children are expensive.Go on, make the appointment. Nobody will know.It's a clean, comfortable clinic with a wonderful staff. They will be there for you.I asked God for mercy and it was granted.I kept my son.I stopped acting out of fear and began to walk in faith.Nothing that the enemy told me was true.Quite the opposite.Where might I be today if I would have aborted? I know that I wouldn't feel good about myself.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 11:48 AM


His Man,

I find it very interesting that for someone who pretends to be so well-versed in Biblical knowledge, you have trouble identifying the author of a post when it is clearly stated at the bottom of the comment. If you had read nearly as carefully as you like to imply that you do, you would see that my name is, in fact, Samantha, and that I was replying to an earlier post by a fellow "baby killer" named Ingrid.

And once again, here you are quoting the Old Testament in support of your cause (a cause which, I might add, will never be legislated in your favor on all these religious premises you spout off, at least not in a land that upholds the sacred separation of church and state). Well, I suppose that, since you take the Bible so literally, I should be glad that you weren't my psychiatrist or counselor during that traumatic period following a very brutal rape. Otherwise, I suppose you would have quoted to me Deuteronomy 22:28 (which, for those of you not familiar with it, states that a rapist of a non-betrothed virgin must simply pay her father and marry the girl to be absolved of his crime). Well, congratulations. If ever you hoped to draw to your side any of us pro-choice "cynics" you just missed the boat.

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 12:49 PM


How long will it take you to understand that Pro-Choicers are not "baby killers"? We support the freedom of choice - which includes the choice to carry a fetus for 9 months, have a baby and become a parent. So could you please stop insulting us? Thank you.

"My son is a United Sates Air Force Academy graduate and now Captain in the US Air Force flying 12 hour missions every other day in the Middle East to protect among other things, spoiled brat baby killer cynics."
Wow. And he is okay with dropping bombs in emergency situations and thus killing people?

"Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator."
Ever heard of Deism? I believe in God as an idea of reason. However, I don't believe in him as someone who will judge me or influences my life in any way. And I know many atheists, who simply don't care.

If you have no arguments besides religion and can't refrain from insulting us, you really need to grow up.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 1:17 PM


Sorry Ingred pro-choice=pro murder.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 1:26 PM


And apparently INGRID (not IngrEd) pro-life = illiterate, as two in a row have just proven. So who had you rather have in charge: murderers, or stupid people? Looks like the whole damn country is pretty much headed to Hell in a handbasket, doesnt it?

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 1:33 PM


Why don't you get off your high horse Samantha !!! I noticed my spelling error-Thank you very much. It posted before I was able to correct it.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 1:53 PM


She's not on a high horse. You call us (unjustified) "murderers" and can't take her critism on your spelling of my name?!

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 2:07 PM


Well,get over it.If you have had an abortion then you have murdered a baby...sorry.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 2:15 PM


Ingrid,

If your god is reason then I would stop worshipping at that altar because you don't show any evidence that you follow such a god by the rather inane comments and assumptions that you make, i.e., that because my son flies a USAF aircraft that he automatically drops bombs.

My son flies a surveillance aircraft. It doesn't drop bombs. His courage protects me and my family and others against those who would try to kill us.

Ingrid, while I know who God is, everyone will eventually know as well and every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. By that time, it will be too late to repent and have a chance at salvation. That's as solid a promise as you'll ever recieve.

Abortion is murder, to advocate that abortion is a part of a choice is to be a willing participant not in just a single abortion but in every abortion ever committed.

Hell was not created for people but for satan and the angels that followed him in rebellion against God. Unfortunately, people who die without Christ in this life will suffer the same fate as the devil himself, so, in a sense, are just as guilty as he is.

There is a way out if you CHOOSE it.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 2:16 PM


Hey, you only said he's an USAF officer. How am I supposed to know what the hell his job is? And I specifically said emergencies.

"Ingrid, while I know who God is, everyone will eventually know as well and every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
For somebody quoting the bible so much, you get things wrong a lot. It's written that Jesus was the son of god, not god himself.
And you know? If I'm going to burn in hell (oops, I don't believe in hell - crap!) then I'll have a party with my fellow pro-choicers there. We're going to laugh a lot - we just need Internet access to do so.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 2:28 PM


His Man,

Amen.

MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 2:30 PM


Funny, isnt it, HisMan, that you can smugly lecture Ingrid on the assumptions that she has made when you yourself assumed that because Hal and his wife chose to have abortions (the circumstances of which you do not know, and your crusader Jill herself said that abortions during ectopic pregnancies were perfectly acceptable) his soul is endangered. For all you know, he may long ago have repented--if he felt led by the Holy Spirit to do so, and it is most definitely not for you to say what that dear Spirit leads others to do. How fine of you to use the Virgin Mary as an example of an instance in which the pro-choice people would have seen abortion justified; this may be true, but given that our stance is *pro-choice* we would also very much have supported her *choice* to keep the baby. Oh, and one more thing; since you say that God so values the lives of children, I must ask you, does that only include the lives of the children of Christians? Because Joshua was ordered to kill every man, woman, and child in Jericho. So does that mean that it is okay to have an abortion if you are a Muslim?

And momof3...did you know that 2/3 of all fertilization events do not result in implantation? That means that if you have had sex and that sperm met with an ova and it did not implant in your uterus, you are a babykiller too.

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 2:32 PM


I have said it before and I'll say it again; There are a lot of people on this blog that suffer from a reprobate mind. I can tell that they only want to walk in their OWN way. They want control.They feel that their plans for themselves are better than God's plans for them.How about that pathetic imnotsorry web site.Pure filth! Most pro-choicers can't even stomach that thing!! Mock God? I wouldn't dare.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 2:34 PM


Samantha.....Say what???

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 2:35 PM


"They feel that their plans for themselves are better than God's plans for them."

Well... yeah. If God knows everything and controls everything and all that stuff - why are his plans not our plans for ourselves?

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 2:37 PM


IngId and Samantha,

Why is it that you come to a website about pro-life, for pro-lifers and feel that you have the right to attack us?

If this was a pro-choice sight and we infiltrated it you would be apoplectic.

Where does all your anger come from?

You keep going on and on about how unreasonable we are. You let us know at every turn how much you hate our faith and the fact that we have it...

And yet, no one here has attacked you. We have shared our opinions, yes. And they are different from yours. But they were done with respect and the attitude of sharing ideas. Yours are so filled with hate that I feel like I need a bath when I am finished reading them. Why? Why all the anger?

A man tells you that his son is in the armed forces to refute your assertion that men and women join the army for the money. Instead of saying, oh, well, I guess there are lots of reasons for joining the army, you instead insult his son. Why?

momof3 can be passionate in her posts but she is hardly abusive and yet you jump on her case for spelling someones name wrong? Did you run out of things to insult? Were her arguments so good that the only thing you could find fault with was her spelling?

There are a handful of people on this sight, on both sides of the argument, who are able to express themselves in a coherent, mature fashion. I suggest you take a lesson from them. Otherwise, I'm afraid you make yourself look like raving lunatics. Honestly, I think I found spittle on my keyboard! No one here wants a fight. Just discussion. You know, you share your thoughts...we share ours...try it. It can be very pleasant. Usually.

MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 2:40 PM


Do I need to spell it out again? My name is INGRID. Not Ingred, not Ingid... you know Ingrid Bergman? It's the same Ingrid.

"You let us know at every turn how much you hate our faith and the fact that we have it..."
Don't put words in our mouths. We never said we hated your faith. I simply stated for MYself, that I don't believe in god the way you do.

I never insulted anyone's son. He's part of the military and I asked if he's okay with dropping bombs, because that's part of the military job description.

And our "anger" comes from the fact, that some people choose random facts (a woman donating for PP was arrested for possessing child porn) and turn them against us: "bad day for liberals and their child porn." and we're trying to defend the pro-choice side against such accusations and insults.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 2:48 PM


" All is not well with you, in fact, the very opposite is true and you know this. You've got to because I know that God does not just let us get by with this stuff, becaseu He love us. While you still have breath, simply admit that abortion is murder, ask Jesus Christ to forgive you, forgive yourself and go on and stop risking the loss of your eternal soul."

ok, i'll try that. Not. I prefer not to "bow and confess that jesus is lord." If he's any kind of self-respecting god, he wouldn't ask that of me.

cheers


Posted by: Hal at March 15, 2007 2:48 PM


*applaudes to Hal*

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 2:54 PM


It appears that Hal will continue to be self serving also. I must say HIS MAN sure gave you a run for your $ earlier!

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 2:58 PM


Ingrid, Hal, no one has attacked us! Oh, well, I suppose that we are stupid and that we lack the ability to properly define the words "baby killer abortionist murderers" and "spoiled brat baby killer cynics." Apparently the negative connotations associated with those labels are applied exclusively by the people to whom they are applied. They are not at all intended in a cruel or derogatory fashion by those pro-life debaters we have encountered here. My bad.

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 3:15 PM


Just to have this on the record:
"So, Hal, cut the total self-and-other-flim-flam and get with reality. All is not well with you, in fact, the very opposite is true and you know this."

"My son is a United Sates Air Force Academy graduate and now Captain in the US Air Force flying 12 hour missions every other day in the Middle East to protect among other things, spoiled brat baby killer cynics.[...] No instead he went into the military because of a higher calling to serve others....something baby killer abortionist murderers could never understand."

Some of the things His Man has called us. Who's insulting whom now?

"[...]that because my son flies a USAF aircraft that he automatically drops bombs.

My son flies a surveillance aircraft. It doesn't drop bombs. His courage protects me and my family and others against those who would try to kill us."
I assumed this, because you said he's an officer of the USAF. You just suppose there are people "who would try to kill" you. Who? Terrorists? Muslims? "Abortionists" (they're called doctors, for crying out loud!)? You have no reason to believe anybody wants to kill you and yet you say that. Why?

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 3:17 PM


"And yet, no one here has attacked you."
I would like to strongly disagree with that.
Being told that you are going to hell and are a murderer, among many other things of the same sort, is definitely attacking.
Attacking very strongly.
And yes, we get upset. Some of us get angry. But that is only because we get sick of you speaking to us like we're not equals to you.
I may disagree with you, very strongly disagree, but I do not look DOWN on you for it.
And yet you look down on us for our choices.
Think what you choose. Think I'm not a "Real" Christian, or that I'm going to hell, or that satan is taunting me, but keep that to yourself.

Posted by: Melissa Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 3:21 PM


And you're absolutely right - 4 pages of bible quotes, telling us a part of his biography and insulting pro-choicers sure gave Hal a run for his $. It really did.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 3:22 PM


You are all like a bunch of selfish little kids.Pro Choice=Pro murder.If not than tell me what it means.On a grown up level. You guys are the ones throwing the insults.Does the truth hurt?

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 3:34 PM


You like to skip the parts you don't like, is that possible? We just pointed out when His Man insulted us for no reason.

And if you listen this time, I'll say it again:
Pro-Choice means you have the freedom to decide what happens with your body. We support women deciding for abortions and we equally support women deciding to have their babys. Okay? It's not about killing, it's about being able and allowed to choose.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 3:38 PM


"baby killer abortionist murderers"

If you are not an abortionist, then this doesn't apply to you.

spoiled brat baby killer cynics.

If you've had an abortion and still believe it is morally right, then I'm sorry but this does apply to you. Taking an innocent life is the definition of murder. We believe abortion is taking an innocent life. Therefore we beleive that abortion is murder. As for the spoiled brat, well you brought that on yourselves.

And if you don't believe in hell, or that abortion is murder, then it shouldn't upset you so if we speak about it. I don't believe in the lost city of atlantis and if you told me I was going their for my beliefs, it wouldn't matter to me one way or another. If I had never stolen anything in my life, but you called me a theif, I wouldn't be upset.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

"Without God, there would be no atheists"
G K Chesterton

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 3:46 PM


"Okay? It's not about killing, it's about being able and allowed to choose.

No, it's not okay. It is not about being able and allowed to choose. Would that it were. It is in fact, about killing babies.

If it were about bein able and allowed to choose, we would have NO laws whatsoever.
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 3:49 PM


Yes it is about killing. The right to chose what? Why do you get to remain in society? You could be a real danger.Psychopath or something. If you would turn on your own child and God,I'm damn sure you would/could turn on me.I have never killed anyone! I sleep well at night.I have to follow the rules that society put forth.The word legal doesn't make murder acceptable.Why should you get to maintain your freedom?

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 3:51 PM


Thank you MK. We must have been posting at the same time. I agree with what you have said 100%

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 3:53 PM


"Why should you get to maintain your freedom?"

That's a scary statement.

Posted by: Lando the Great at March 15, 2007 3:55 PM


Why? Please elaborate.You are scary!

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 4:00 PM


Lando,

I'm pretty sure mom meant that if Ingred/IngId/Ingrid did indeed committ murder as mom believes, then she should not be allowed her freedom. Heated moment there is all.
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 4:01 PM


Lando,You scare me because you defend the act of murder. Why do you feel the need to do this?

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 4:02 PM


That's right MK. I know that they can't be locked up. The legality of abortion prevents that. I really would like one of these folks to explain to me what the difference is between killing someone on the street vs. abortion. That's right up there with the question of: Why are there any laws at all?

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 4:15 PM


A nation that kills it's children is a nation without hope.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 4:20 PM


Murder is defined as the killing of an innocent person. A person is defined as a human who has developed the ability to maintain a stream of conscious thought. Since a fetus can no more do this than it can kick a field goal, it is not protected by the law that prevents murder. Therefore, abortion is not murder. It is a woman's exercising her right to bodily autonomy. A woman is no more obligated to loan her uterus to a fetus for nine months than His Man is to donate his kidney to the homeless man on the corner of Madison and 5th Avenue. This, as per request, is a logical argument devoid of insult and name-calling.

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 15, 2007 4:23 PM


His Man-

"I mean, I don't know if I should feel sorry for you because of your Dad's situation"

First and foremost, I do not need the likes of you feeling sorry for me because of my Fathers situation. And, no maybe not, just maybe not was it due to a lack of customers (that we Pro-Choicer's have killed off, correct?) It's due to corporate greed and corruption. So again your saying these lost children of Roe vs. Wade, could have taken these jobs, they could have worked for these corporations almost all their lives, than suddenly have their jobs ripped away, their healthcare for their family and themselves reduced. Sure many have the option to move with the company but mind you, some are not able to, some have houses they live in now that are entirely paid off, some have children in college, not everyone can just up and move. Some are young enough to find another job. but what are those others left with? Especially those 45 or older, which is a good percentage of the workers being layed-off, what are they left to do? They needed little education when they started, so they have barely any now, so they take those bottom-feeder jobs, jobs that bare hardly anything and offer utter-crap benfits, and yes some can go back to school, but these "jobs" require working 60 hours a week, with terrible hours, what time do they have to take courses? When I was younger, almost every child in aall my classes 1st-6th, had at least one parent working at this particular corporation, now, it's a building that just sits there, and it can't be knocked down due to asbestos, and sure not all 45 million of those children would have ended up working there, but I'm sure with "basic aritmatic" (you know, that course I failed) some of them might be, or perhaps they would have been working for some of the following corporation who have done the same...

-Ford Motor Company: 35,000 jobs
-Crysler: 1,000 jobs
-IBM: 10,000 jobs
-AOL: 15,000 jobs
-US Air: 11,000 jobs
-Pfizer: 10,000 jobs
-Polaroid: 2,000 jobs
-Sara Lee: 1,700 jobs
-EMC: 1,000 jobs
-Solectron Corporation: 12,000 jobs

So that right there is 98,700 jobs...that these aborted children could have had.

And with military thing...

"Over 45 million since Roe v. Wade in 1973. If those 45 million children had lived, today they would be defending our country."

As I mentioned earlier, I found the whole Pro-Life and Pro-War combination, to be an interesting one, So you promote sending young men over to die in a war, you support that, you support that "murder"? But not the so-called "murder" of abortion.

What other issues do you support His Man?

Do you spend just as much time commenting on websites that promot Anti-War, and Anti-Death Penalty, since you consider abortion to be "murder", I expect that you would consider those to be "murder" as well?

Do you spend an equal amount of time protesting euthanasia as you do abortion?

And what do you say we teach in sex education, abstinance, or how to use contraceptives, not only safely, but also how to use them most effectivly, in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies, therefore; preventing abortion?

Do you donate any of your time or money to our terrible foster care system? Those who are truly pro-life would support these neglected and often abused children with substantial amounts of their personal incomes, or personal time. Do you support life only for the unborn stage, or other stages as well?


"Gee, your Dad might have had something to show for his hard work over 35 years."

My Father has MUCH to show for his hard work of over 35 years. He has 4 children, all of which were my his and my Mothers CHOICE (cause ya know, being Pro-Choice does not mean your gung-ho for abortions, there are millions of people who are Pro-Choice who have never had an abortion, and never will). He also has 4 Grandchildren (all who were both of my 2 sisters CHOICES). My 2 sisters, both happily married and recently receiving promotions in thier careers, My Brother who graduated the Police Academy top of his class, and is now a Sheriif, and Me, 4th semester in college, able to graduate early, and on the Dean's list. That is what my Father has to show for his hard work over the past 35 years of his life.

Posted by: Loreal at March 15, 2007 4:29 PM


Back on the issue everyone.

Abortion can be defined as the intentional disruption of a process. You can perform an abortion on a plant growing in a pot in your living room by yanking it from the soil or simply neglecting it.

The process of human life involves a number of steps; conception, gestation, birth, life, death. Abortion prematurely interupts that process. By definition, since the process was begun really without the permission of the mother or father, or should I say egg and sperm donors, therefore, the only One that has the right to terminate the process is the One that started it - God.

God happens to categorize the premature interruption, by anyone other than Himself, of the life process apart from His will, no matter which stage the interruption occurs in, murder.

So by definition, the abortion of a human being in the womb, which so happens to occur after conception and during gestation is murder.

People who promote, agree with, or perform abortions are abortionists and are therefore murderers.

Now, if you want to say that you have the right to choose that 1 + 1 = 0, or 1 x 1 = 2 you may have that right but it doesn't change the arithmetic, it just makes you an idiot....any engineer knows that if you try to apply that kind of logic to flying a jet or driving a car or doing anything else for that matter the eventual result is always going to be crash and burn.

So all you abortionist, pro-abortion, pro-choice murderers can choose to believe that abortion is not murder. It does not change the rock solid truth and eventually you will crash and burn.

You can then try to convince yourself that God doesn't exist or is not a God that hates murder in an attempt to silence your own conscience so you can sleep at night. That's like trying to say that gravity doesn't exist because you can't see it. Oh, but you can see its effects and therefore would be an imbecile to deny its existence. God is all around us in nature, in other people when they love and have joy, etc. In fact, the Bible says that the world is full of the glory of God and those who deny Him are without excuse.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 4:31 PM


Loreal,

Yes, God is a God of grace and mercy. You and your family as well as me and my family are proof of that.

You still seem to not be able to make the connection. The reason people are being laid off are because products are not being sold. You can't sell a product to a dead baby that's been in the ground for 34 years. However, I still think the Democrats are trying to figure out if they could tax these poor souls.

War is conducted against those who try to kill you without cause like, you know, Hitler and Saddam Hussein, just to name a few. No I do not want war, however, I would die defending my family and country in a war. To do anything less would be unmanly.

Death penalties are executed against those who have murdered and are deserving of such punishment like Dahmer, Capone, Gacy, etc., etc. God instituted government to bear the sword on evildoers such as these, and for the protection of those who choose to do good.

Abortions are committed against defenseless, innocent human beings.

For you to somehow imply that for me to be pro-life, pro-just war and pro-death penalty is inconsistent is simply ludicrous and indicative of a person who really doesn't think very well.

I suggest you stay in college after you get your degree because you really haven't learned to think properly.

I am pro-life but not pro-stupidity or pro-ignorance. Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord.

And by the way, in passing Roe v. Wade, our government is in direct conflict with the mandates of a Holy God and as such, will reap the consequences of that decision.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 4:53 PM


Thank you for posting with respect. For yourself and others.

A person is defined as a human who has developed the ability to maintain a stream of conscious thought. Since a fetus can no more do this than it can kick a field goal, it is not protected by the law that prevents murder.

person pronunciationn.

1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.
5. Physique and general appearance.
6. Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties.
7. Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them.
8. Grammar.
1. Any of three groups of pronoun forms with corresponding verb inflections that distinguish the speaker (first person), the individual addressed (second person), and the individual or thing spoken of (third person).
2. Any of the different forms or inflections expressing these distinctions.

# �Well, in her person, I say I will not have you� A character or role, as in a play; a guise:

9. (Shakespeare).

as you can see person is not defined as a human who has developed the ability to maintain a stream of conscious thought.


I think you would do better with using the word fetus:


1. The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.
2. In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

fētus

[Middle English, from Latin

, offspring.].

I think the problem is that no once can agree with on a definition of personhood.

In the pro-choice group you have people who say everything from it's not a life, to it is a life but so what, to I don't know if it's a life-I hate abortion but I support a womans right to choose.

If we could get everyone to agree on the definition of life and when it begins we would have a jumping off place. But we can't.
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 4:59 PM


"God happens to categorize the premature interruption, by anyone other than Himself, of the life process apart from His will, no matter which stage the interruption occurs in, murder."

And I suppose you have it from Him on the best authority? Tell me, how often does G-d talk to you? Has He chosen you as his spokesman? I'd think the world would like to know if He really had.

So people can interrupt the life process apart from His will? How does that work? If G-d is absolutely omniscient, would He not know you would make such a choice, and, thus, it was part of His will, considering all that occurs is of His will?

All calamities, disasters, wars, and what we deem "bad deeds" are actually expressions of His will, because He knows all and wills all to happen. Isn't that food for thought, now?

Posted by: Listerine at March 15, 2007 5:02 PM


Listerine,

Indeed it is food for thought, and the fathers of the church have chewed on it for centuries.

But God, in his infinite wisdom, gave us free will.
There is no time for Him and so while He knows what will happen it is happening at the time that He knows.

Capiche?

God does not will calamities, disasters, wars and what we deem bad deeds. He allows them. And often them happen precisely because of those "bad deeds".

He wills us to love Him and enter into union with Him.

Bishop Fulton Sheen says: Probably the worst punishment God can visit upon a soul is to leave it alone.

He also says: Respecting himan freedom, God calls, but he does not force. "I thirst" is the language of liberty."

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 5:12 PM


Yes true MK. I feel like I'm going in circles. It's pretty cut and dry to me.While pregnant I heard my child's heart beating at 1 month of pregnancy. Blobs,bloodclots,etc.don't have heart beats.Also,there may be quite a few people here in extreme denial. As a medical professional myself,I am well aware of this defense mechanism.If I convince myself it's not true...it's not true. This happens a lot in cases of hidden pregnancies.I recall you saying something about the medical field yourself so I'm sure you can relate.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 5:14 PM


"For you to somehow imply that for me to be pro-life, pro-just war and pro-death penalty is inconsistent is simply ludicrous and indicative of a person who really doesn't think very well."

It's not. Pro-Life means you have a clear opinion - protection of life. Pro-Choice means, you can choose.
If the purpose of Pro-Life is the protection of said life, you can't be Pro-Just war or Pro-Death penalty because it kills and destroys lives. Conclusion: If you're Pro-Life, you must be Anti-War and Anti-Death penalty as well. If you're not, you're not pro-life. It's that easy.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 15, 2007 5:20 PM


Ingrid, (whew, I typed it write...you do realize those were all typos and not intentional, right?)

Well, actually, you can be pro-just war, but the definition of "just" is very strict. Our church has stated that the Iraq was does not meet the criteria. She also teaches that the death penalty is wrong unless there is absoulutely no possible other way to keep society safe. She has said that this almost never happens in modern society. She also says that abortion is wrong in all circumsatances.

So you are mostly correct. If you are going to be pro-life, you should be pro-life all the way.
I am. Or try to be.
MK

By the way, this also means til natural death, no "embryonic" stem cell research, no euthanasia and taking responsiblity for the poor, sick and disabled that are here already.

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 5:34 PM


His Man-

"Yes, God is a God of grace and mercy. You and your family as well as me and my family are proof of that."

Wrong...My Fathers and Mothers CHOICE to have us children, My Fathers and Mothers hard work which aided in putting food on our table, clothes on our back, and a roof over our heads, My Fathers and Mothers wisdom they shared with us, and their understanging that we are individuals, who take not only the wisdom they have given us, but also what we ourselves have learned, and our own opinions and views is what has made my siblings and myself such successful individuals. Not God, My Father and Mother.

By the way, can you try not to bring God into every comment or arguement you make, If I wanted a preaching of what God wants, I'd follow a religion, I'd go to church, or I'd read the Bible.

"You still seem to not be able to make the connection. The reason people are being laid off are because products are not being sold. You can't sell a product to a dead baby that's been in the ground for 34 years. However, I still think the Democrats are trying to figure out if they could tax these poor souls."

Wrong again, these people are being laid off because it is cheaper to make the products elsewhere, factrioes are moveing and laying there current employees off, their products ARE still being sold, in the SAME quantitys, so you answer does not apply.

And you answered my question about your views on the death penalty and war, and as Ingrid put so well...

"Conclusion: If you're Pro-Life, you must be Anti-War and Anti-Death penalty as well. If you're not, you're not pro-life. It's that easy."

Thank-You Ingrid.

However, you somehow managed to dodge my other question, so I took the liberty of copying abd pasteing them just for you...

Do you spend an equal amount of time protesting euthanasia as you do abortion?

And what do you say we teach in sex education, abstinance, or how to use contraceptives, not only safely, but also how to use them most effectivly, in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies, therefore; preventing abortion?

Do you donate any of your time or money to our terrible foster care system? Those who are truly pro-life would support these neglected and often abused children with substantial amounts of their personal incomes, or personal time. Do you support life only for the unborn stage, or other stages as well?


Posted by: Loreal at March 15, 2007 6:02 PM


Loreal--

I'm sure they "support" life past the unborn stages, but not nearly with the same amount of vigor or passion. They do not use nearly the same amount of vicious vitriol against people who are pro-war, or other things which can be perceived as "anti-life." There's something much more emotionally alluring to argue and gripe about people who abort fetuses than those who support other stuff like war. Babies--and the way we have been biologically programmed to automatically find them "cute" and endearing (look it up, it's part of evolutionary psychology--always call forth a far more vehement response from certain types of people. That's why abortion seems to be so much of a greater issue with them.

Posted by: Listerine at March 15, 2007 6:11 PM


Gosh,Talk about a spoiled brat!!!! Lady give it up!!Loreal,you are so hostile and you are coming off like a looney!

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 6:12 PM


Listerine and Loreal,Do the 2 of you consider yourselves pro woman? If so what have you done to ever help anyone?

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 6:15 PM


Listermint,

"And I suppose you have it from Him on the best authority? Tell me, how often does G-d talk to you? Has He chosen you as his spokesman? I'd think the world would like to know if He really had."

Yahweh's will is found in the Old and New Testaments, His Word. You know this. You are probably a Jew as indicated by your use of the term G-d. So don't try to paint me into some idiot corner by implying that I am saying that I have conversations with God. Yes, I pray to Him and I guarantee you that he hears, because things do happen that are unexplainable. By the way, isn't one of the 10 Commandements, "Thou shalt not Murder"?

And yes, He does talk to me through His Word. The difference between me and you is that I choose to listen.

You read and study the words of Einstein. If you quote him or use some of his teachings in your reasonings am I to conclude that you have had direct conversations with Einstein? How do you know they are his words?. I know the Bible is God's Word because there's a history, an oral traditon and then a paper trail. The Bible is a paper trail of 66 books written by different people over 6,000 years all orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. That's how God talks to me.

"So people can interrupt the life process apart from His will? How does that work? If G-d is absolutely omniscient, would He not know you would make such a choice, and, thus, it was part of His will, considering all that occurs is of His will? All calamities, disasters, wars, and what we deem "bad deeds" are actually expressions of His will, because He knows all and wills all to happen. Isn't that food for thought, now?"

It happens every day, every second, every minute. That's why it's called sin and punishable by death. It's just that thre's not an immediate reaction from God to every sin and injustice, but, there will be.

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, God knew that Cain would kill Able, that Moses would lead His people out of slavery, that Haman would try to kill teh Jews but that Esther would rescue her people, that Potphar's wife would cry rape but that Joseph would become second only to Pharoah, that Elisha would take up the mantle of Elijah after he ascended into heaven in a chariot of fire, God knew that Jesus would have to die on a cross but be reaised, God knows everything that has, is and will happen, good and bad including each and every abortion. Why He doesn't act immediately to every calamity or prevent every disaster is not for me to know. The last time I checked He was God and I was His creation and what right do I have to question my Maker or His actions? It is not my wish to make myself a god in my own image. When's the last time your dog or cat or goldfish asked you why you bought the house you live in or drive the car you own, etc.? And if you attempted to answer that question how would they process the information? Well, multiply that discrepancy by infinty and maybe you will understand why maybe the God of the Universe doesn't feel he has to answer to you or me. Pehaps reading the last few chapters of the book of Job would help. Give it a try.

To the extent that He allows such things to happen in time, is of no consequesnce, for He is an eternal God who is not bound by the limits of space and time and, not answerable to me. My job is to just trust and obey a God who loves me and sent His Son to prove it. And, that's what I try to do, every day, as best as I can. That includes speaking out against the sin of abortion. By the way, His word says that Christians win, or should I say, those who accept Him, believe on Him, and trust that He is the promised Messiah.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 6:20 PM


@Mom of 3:

I'm a lifelong Girl Scout, and will officially receive my Gold Award (equivalent to the Eagle) in April. I spend a great deal of my free time with other young women, in activities that teach and encourage them to be strong, be themselves, and to feel right in standing up for who they are in the world.

I'm also a frequent volunteer at a local nature center, where I help teach children about the wildlife of various local habitats and why certain human activities have been hurting those animals and plants, and how they can help. That, and I used to work at a local community charity center, but then they moved locations and it was no longer viable for me to travel a much longer distance (not owning a car).

If you knew me, and knew anyone that I know, or asked any of my friends, you could tell that I am a fierce and loyal friend, who is free with advice and willing to help with almost any problem short of wiping someone else's bottom (and I might even do that for them too, given certain circumstances). I rally my friends to face others who have treated them unfairly (having overcome a number of unfair situations myself), and am always willing to talk to console, support, or give advice.

I've never really thought to label myself pro-woman. I'm not really pro-anything. I might say that one thing seems better or more fair than another, but I refuse to solidly say I am FOR one thing and not another. I am perpetually open to new information and most of the time can see a logical end of both sides of an argument. Usually that forces me to have no position. I'm not here to argue for pro-choice; I'm just here to comment on some observations I've made by reading and listening to other people, usually the pro-life end.

I try not to subscribe to any labels at all. If you must label me, call me Existing. Because that's about the only thing that I can PROVE to you. The rest is all extraneous.

Posted by: Listerine at March 15, 2007 6:31 PM


Loreal,
Those were unfair statements. I won't take them one by one because they were all unfair. You're not only attacking HisMan, but you're attacking his answers before he even gives them.

He is Catholic. First and formost, so his answers will always be in accordance with what the church teaches. His answer, when he finds the time to give it, will be the same as mine.

As for myself..

My father has been in a persistent vegetative state for 5 years now. And it would never occur to any of us to "put him to sleep". He lives at home with my mother and my brother and I help in endless little ways, from changing his soiled diapers to wiping the drool from his beautiful lips to singing him Irish songs and discussing Notre Dame and the Bears with him.

I have volunteered for years in homeless shelters, nursing homes, and taught immigrant children for 13 years. I have friends who have given children up for adoption, friends who have had abortions and friends who have gotten pregnant and kept their children. I love them all. My birth brother is in prison for pedophilia and I love him too. I write to him weekly. My son has bi-polar and struggled with drugs and my "God" talk has gotten him to a place where he is drug free, married, a father and about to graduate from Northeastern and become a social worker. I did not turn my back on him simply because he was a burden. I got pregnant with him while I was not married and did not turn my back on him them either.

Abortion is a greater issue for us because of the sheer numbers and the fact that it is ripping our moral fabric to shreds. The repurcussions have not even begun to be felt yet. But they will.

When all hell breaks loose, and it will, you might even find yourself seeking solace with "My God" and perhaps even looking for a pro-lifer to lend you a hand. And we would.
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 6:32 PM


sorry loreal, that was meant for Listerine...

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 6:37 PM


Likewise for me. I am not here to tell all that I have a perfect life in a perfect world. I too have some of the the same relationships that MK has. We all fall short! We are all human.I despise abortion. That does not mean I hate the women who have had them. I hate the act itself.I don't hate abortionists.They need prayer too. I give it to them, and I also pray for women to repent from abortion and turn against it.Some do and some don't.

Posted by: momof3 at March 15, 2007 6:52 PM


Listerine:

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.

Be hot or cold, but do not be lukewarm.

God despises that.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 8:13 PM


His Man, that lukewarm comment kind of struck me. wouldnt God like the fact that if you saw something potentially as a sin then you didnt do it rather than the one who thinks it couldnt be a sin at all, and performs the act?

not to mention, that isnt the main point, the point is that there listerine thinks there are viable arguments for either side, which some people on each side agree with. There are those who would settle for a compromise, though that happening is highly unlikely.

But being able to see either side having points isnt that difficult if one opens their eyes. I used to be pro life, but after doing research and keeping my religion seperate from politics, I became pro choice. It all depends on what one decides to base their opinions, thoughts, etc on and how they see things. to say that just because she has "no opinion" (which personally I see a bit hard to believe, I would think there would at least be a little lean in some direction) doesnt mean that her comment is essentially worthless, as your post seems to insinuate

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 15, 2007 11:53 PM


Dan,With all due respect can I ask why did you change from pro life to pro choice? I used to take no stand on the issue myself, until I began to educate myself on what abortion really was. I was just curious as to what caused you to change you views?

Posted by: momof3 at March 16, 2007 8:24 AM


Researching the claims made by both sides and being able to keep my belief system separate from political beliefs. The claims by the pro choice side made more sense and tended to have more information on the issue, and made sense in terms of many of the arguments, so I switched.

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 16, 2007 9:25 AM


His Man -
I respect your faith and I don't hate you for it. But could you at least try to post just once with mentioning god or the bible? Try cold, hard facts of science. Please.
Being religious is not a bad thing, as long as you're still capable of seeing the other side and not judging them right away.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 16, 2007 10:52 AM


Ingrid,

That was a great post. My respect for you just went up a few notches. (I realize what I think of you isn't important, but I just wanted to let you know.)
Thanks,
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 16, 2007 4:59 PM


Mom of 3-

I have trouble understanding how I come off as spoiled brat, or a looney, but ok.

As for coming off hostile, I don't think so eiether, I am merly seeking answers to my questions, to which; stll have not been answered.

I asked the following 2 questions...

And what do you say we teach in sex education, abstinance, or how to use contraceptives, not only safely, but also how to use them most effectivly, in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies, therefore; preventing abortion?

Do you donate any of your time or money to our terrible foster care system? Those who are truly pro-life would support these neglected and often abused children with substantial amounts of their personal incomes, or personal time. Do you support life only for the unborn stage, or other stages as well?

I ask about the teaching os sex ed. because let's face it, people are going to have sex, so lets teach safe sex, not absinance, teach how to use contraceptives both effectivly and saftly. Let's make contraceptives more available, and knowledge of proper use widely spread.

I asked abut the foster care system, let's fix it or at least improve it, these wold both cut-back on abortion.

Am I Pro-Women, yes I am , I volunteer at Planned Parenthood, teaching sex. ed classes. I run in the the Race For The Cure each year. And that's what I have done to help others.

Posted by: Loreal at March 16, 2007 6:00 PM


mom,

take your time before answering and take a deep breath. You can do it...

MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 16, 2007 10:32 PM


@momof3:

I would like to ask you a question about some comments I saw on the article about the "Abortionist of the Year" award. Why is it that in the case of the woman who died alone in her hotel room after her boyfriend had attempted an abortion, her death was her fault and not the fault of the lack of legal abortion; and yet when a young woman with Down Syndrome dies from a legal abortion, you do not blame her parents, who took her to have the procedure, but instead you blame the doctor who performed it? It seems like a double standard that the one woman was responsible for her actions while in the other case (and I understand that she was the victim of a horrible crime, but her parents are responsible for her having an abortion) you blame the abortion industry. If abortion is illegal and a woman dies, it is the woman's fault. If abortion is legal and a woman dies, it is the industry's fault.

Posted by: SamanthaT at March 17, 2007 4:48 PM


Truthfully Samantha,
(I know you asked mom, but I have a big mouth),
You make a good point. I see why you could think that that's what we're saying.

Myself, I blame the scum boyfriend for getting her pregnant and then shirking his responsibilities as a father. I blame her because she allowed it to happen. I blame society because they didn't provide a dignified alternative.

In the case of the down syndrome girl, I blame the slob that took advantage of her and got her pregnant, I blame the parents because they took the cowards way out, I blame the doctor because he took their money, I blame the courts because they allowed it and I blame society because we sit back and let this kind of thing happen.

Lots of blame to go around.

I do NOT blame the baby who died along with her mother, and I do NOT blame the girl with downs syndrome who was an innocent victim of a society gone mad, and I do not blame the baby that was taken from her.

I blame myself, because I could pray more, speak out more and I should have started sooner before it got to this place.
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 17, 2007 5:24 PM


Ingrid,

I am not going to be a lukewarm Christian by watering down what I believe.

Jesus didn't do it so why should I? The devil tempted Jesus and every time His answer was a quote from scripture.

Ingrid, never once have I said that you were going to Hell. All I have said is this is what the Bible says on this or that. I beleive that the Bible in its entirety teaches that killing an unborn baby is murder and is evil no matter what the circumstance. God can redeem any difficult situation including an unwanted pregnancy and turn it into a blessing and not a curse. If this is not the God I serve, then He is not a God worth serving. He will allow us to choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing, he forces us to do nothing. We can argue against Him and rebel all we want, but He won't change. He's God, not us and life is much easier when you aren't battling God.

What you are feeling is the conviction of the Holy Spirit and misinterpreting it as me condemning you. Sorry, I don't have that kind of power, but the Word of God does because it is truth and it will never fade or pass away but endure forever.

I am your friend Ingrid because I am not afraid to tell you the truth because I don't want anyone to perish. The Bible says I have the mind of Christ. I got it not of my own accord but from God Himself when I gave my life to Christ and said, "here am I Lord, use me". He takes what we say seriously so He put a hunger in me to devour the Bible. This is what I believe and this is what I am and they can never be seperated.

While science is a good thing, it is not God's Word. It would be wise for people to believe the Bible first in faith and then use science to confirm what the Bible is saying. Throughout the ages men have tried to destroy the bible, but without success because it is a divinely inspired book. It is the Logos.

I am an engineer. I am very rational. However, I see more proof of facts in the Bible everyday than in science. Now we see in a mirror darkly but then we shall know as we are fully known. Faith is required, if one is looking for proof, they'll never get it for it is impossible to please God without faith.

Ask Him. He's there in Germany with you. He's all around you and an infinte God wants to come into your finite heart and live inside you. Now that's an awesome concept. What do you have to lose? I have never regretted becoming a Christian, it's an awesome life and never without learning and the Bible says that things will just get better and better and better throughout eternity. I'll take that promise any day. Nothing else makes any sense and I refuse to give into the boogieman called death, the abyss of hopelessness. No, it's sting is gone.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 18, 2007 1:45 AM


Dan,

Jesus said you are either for Him or againt Him, cold or hot. There's no middle ground.

With a perfectly Holy God there are no other points of view, just misunderstandings on our part about what He is saying. If He says not to murder, we shouln't be trying to justify murdering unborn babies for the sake of a gaining some benefit for our temporal life. That's a ludicrous risk to take since we have no promise of tomorrow here on earth, but the promise of heaven or hell depending on the choices we make, here and now.

Our inability to understand Christ doesn't change the truth. In fact, He promises that if we ask for wisdom He will give without holding back.

Now I understnad that you think you can separate your religious beliefs from your political beliefs? Sorry, this makes no sense. A house divided against itself cannot stand. You are body, mind and spirit in one person, and you can't separate them. One affects the other and the others affect the one.

The Bible says that if you are double minded, i.e., you are wishy washy on your belief system that you shouldn't expect anything from God. Check it our for yourself. I think going from pro-life to pro-death indicates a lack of conviction on your part and disloyalty to Christ. Repent man before it's too late.

So, God is not a matter of opinion. He's as real as real can get. It's our duty to seek Him with all our hearts, to love Him with all our heart, mind, and soul, and our neighbor as ourself, which includes unborn, innocent, defenseless human beings in the womb.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 18, 2007 2:02 AM


God forgives, even if it is a sin, we arent supposed to interfere with governments based upon religion. we are to follow the law unless it is a sin. abortion is legal, but not forced upon you. if you dont want to sin you dont take the choice of abortion.

"Now I understnad that you think you can separate your religious beliefs from your political beliefs? Sorry, this makes no sense. A house divided against itself cannot stand. You are body, mind and spirit in one person, and you can't separate them. One affects the other and the others affect the one."

A house divided cannot stand, but spirit and rational thought are two entirely different things. They can be separated if one tries hard enough to do so.

pro death? since when is allowing to women to CHOOSE to carry a fetus to term or not for the end of the human race?

I know what the Bible says, I've read it. It is not even close to a lack of conviction of my part, I am just able to keep religion and politics seperate, at least mostly. Just because I personally may not like something, doesnt mean I should deny the civil/political rights of others.

I am not wishy washy in my belief system. I got confused, I searched for answers, found them. and was convinced, just as there are those convinced by Christ and others who are not. I have my belief system, political beliefs =/= religious beliefs.

I have the utmost faith in God and Jesus Christ. There will hopefully be no point in my life where that will waver, though the Bible says wavering faith may happen, but to just leave your trust in Him and continue onward.

I too believe God is real. And if He is all knowing, then He will know whether or not the fetus is going to live a life as well.

I have a strong faith in God and Jesus, supporting a pro life POLITICAL view is not required of me. I have faith in God's forgiveness and mercy, so even if it is seen as a sin, I have faith that He will forgive me for my shortcomings.

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 18, 2007 3:19 PM


Dan,

Then why is it that we have laws against speeding, drunk driving, illicit drug use, rape, incest, ...shall I go on?

The bottom line is you can and must interfere when the welfare of other human beings is at stake.

While I would do a happy dance if the "government" outlawed contraception, this would be a good example of "give the people what they want" (even if it is harmful to them), but when it hurts another human being or society as a whole, then not only can we, but we should, nay we MUST interfere.

Abortion takes a life. A defenseless life. The circumstances surrounding that life, while often trying, are inconsequential. The pre-born must be protected if we want to call ourselves a "civilized" society.

If we can't make laws that protect the most helpless members of society, then we do not deserve the title "society".

If we can't make a law to protect this most basic of human rights, then let us abolish ALL laws.
MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 18, 2007 4:41 PM


because those can lead to the harm of persons, there is a difference between a person and a human. someone in a comatose state is still human, but it is perfectly legal for the family to decide to pull the plug.

and out of curiosity, how is contraception "harmful"? they are very effective, and they prevent against most STDs and unwanted pregnancies, which in turn would lower abortion rates. Use of contraception doesnt harm anybody, unless they are uneducated on how to use it, which could certainly cause issues.

when life begins is debatable, that much has been established. Society is never "civilized" in everybody's view. there will always be someone who disagrees. Look at extremists in any issue or idea. people have different opinions on what makes society "civilized"

society tends to also be a subjective term, at least if you are referring to more then a group of people with a government and laws in place, which your post well shows. you say that banning abortion then we would truly be a society, whereas others would argue its a step backwards in various ways.

Human rights have always been subject to situation. Habeas Corpus, free speech, cruel/unusual punishments. The U.S. has pretty much broken them all at some point. Though, defining being born as a right is a little tricky, simply because there could be a miscarriage at anytime, at which point the baby didnt get its "right".

Personally, I like the idea, I think alyssa talked about in the most recent thread where technology is developed to transplant the fetus into an artificial womb or something of the sort. The baby gets to be born, and the mother gets her bodily integrity. its a win win for those who would undergo that procedure.

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 18, 2007 7:20 PM


Dan,

You are the Justification King. However, at best, the King is mad or very, very confused.

Rights are given by the Creator not men and absolutely NOT subject to the situation. Men only screw up the rights God gives by trying to justify tehnm based on circumstances, like what you're doing. If God chooses to allow a baby to be conceived and then a miscarriage occurs, that's His right as Creator. An abortion is man interfering in God's right to allow the baby to be born, that's called sin, or rebelling against the Creator's sovereign will. All sin demands a price and that's the death of the sinner. The penalty may not have to be paid immediatley because of His grace, but it will be paid for eventually. Just ask the billions that have gone on before us. The solution is that death does not have to be permanent or result in the second death if we accept Jesus as our Savior, confess, repent and are baptized. You know, basic Christianity.

Tell me, if God had chosen instead to bring Christ into the world nowadays, would you still believe in a mother's "right to choose"? I mean Mary was pregnant and not married yet. According to today's "enlightened" (I think idiotic and stupid) reasoning in the pro-death culture she would have the "right to choose" to kill the baby living inside of her. Really?

Then what you're really saying is that you'd be willing to risk committing spiritual suicide because you'd allow a mother's right to choose to kill her unborn baby to trump the birth of the Saviour of the World. Thus He would have never lived a sinless life, never died on a cross for you and me, never been resurrected. Thus you and I would have no hope of salvation. That's dumb, stupid, without reason, and foolish.

If it was wrong 2,000 years ago, it's still wrong and if you're a true Christian you would understand that.

Fetus transplant? Wow, now that's another braniac idea. Let's create a whole new medical money making industry at the expense of innocent and defenseless human beings with no say in the matter. I bet PP would buy into that one, the bastards.

What about the host's immune system turning on the transplanted baby? What about taking an unecessary risk?

Please, Lord Jesus, come soon.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 19, 2007 12:47 AM


Dan,

and out of curiosity, how is contraception "harmful"? they are very effective, and they prevent against most STDs

Only condodms protect against any std's and they often don't work. (Somebody quote me a statistic...)
The pill, the IUD, the patch, none of these protect you from disease. And we feel that they actually contribute to some!

and out of curiosity, how is contraception "harmful"?

We've already explained this a number of times, so you'll just have to reread the posts. In a nutshell, The IUD and pill can prevent a baby from implanting so to our way of thinking this is equal to having an abortion.

then we would truly be a society

Those are your words, not mine. I said you couldn't call yourself a civilized society and condone something as barbaric as killing innocent human beings.

because those can lead to the harm of persons, there is a difference between a person and a human. someone in a comatose state is still human, but it is perfectly legal for the family to decide to pull the plug.

There is no difference, in my opinion, and many others, between a person and a human. Look both words up in the dictionary. You'll be surprised by the definition of "person"...
As for pulling the plug on a person in a coma...I don't think so. Perhaps you mean a person who is brain dead and comatose and is only being kept alive artificially. But I'm pretty sure being in a coma in not criteria for "pulling the plug". That would be right up there with Euthanasia! and we haven't made that legal. Yet.

So exactly what criteria would you use to define a society? If mothers and doctors killing babies in unregulated abortion clinics, and starving perfectly healthy people to death because there brain isn't working as well as yours (debatable),and aborting anyone that doesn't live up to your standards (ie 80% of downs children), abolishing marriage as it has always been understood thereby destroying families as we know them, condoning man/boy sex (namba), legalizing drugs that will detstroy our youth...
is your definition of civilized, then give me the caveman mentality anyday.

If all of the above groups had there way, this country, possibly even world, would destoy itself.
One depraved soul at a time.

MK


Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at March 19, 2007 5:55 AM


"I am not going to be a lukewarm Christian by watering down what I believe."

How does supporting your opinion with science make you a lukewarm Christian? BTW, it wasn't me who said anything about lukewarm.

I simply asked to you leave god and the bible out of this for once and give me facts, not believes. You may see the bible as a fact - which is your good right - but I don't.

Posted by: Ingrid at March 19, 2007 7:09 AM


Entrance into heaven or hell is not based on works alone, that is acknowledge in the Bible. The one who acknowledges that they sin, and inherrantly sin, are the ones who make it into paradise. There are various verses to that effect. If it were based on works alone, all of humanity would be damned.

God is all knowing, or so it is believed. He knows what we are going to do before we do it. He also sent angels to Mary, I would presume He would do the same now. God would know whether or not the woman would keep Him. Not to mention. God gave Mary a CHOICE, if I remember correctly, whether or not to carry His son.

And I must ask, since it was brought up, would you believe someone who came forward today caliming to be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?

And that is untrue. God became merciful, that is why He sent His son. He wanted us to be saved, knowing what was going to happen to Him. He just have easily could have destroyed us all for killing His son. Abortion would have had the same effect though- His death, just much more quickly, and abortions were.

Not to mention, birth control and abortion were used before Christ was born, ancient cultures had different forms of contraceptives at the time.

It wasnt fetus transplant perse, it would be some sort of artificial womb. Pro Choice and prolife sides would win out. The child has the chance to be born, the mother gets her body.


now to contraception

"In one year with perfect use (meaning couples use condoms consistently and correctly at every act of sex), 98 percent of women relying on male condoms will remain pregnancy free. With typical use, 85 percent relying on male condoms will remain pregnancy free.[3]"

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/factsheet/fscondom.htm

there are various other statistics on disease and pregnancies as well that are prevented by condom use. They are incredibly effective if used correctly and consistently.

http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm

history of condoms/more facts

and something like over 1/3 of them dont implant naturally or something of the sort, but ill have to look that up again to be sure.

personhood- the state or fact of being an individual or having human characteristics and feelings: a harsh prison system that deprives prisoners of their personhood.

human - A member of the species Homo sapiens; a human being.

As for life support, my knowledge on laws on the subject are limited, so ill have to do a bit more research. But from what Ive found so far, terminally ill or comatose patients can be taken off life support at the request of the family/next of kin, etc. In some cases, the hospitals can make the final decision, though I believe that is only in some states.

abortions are regulated

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/etc/map.html

you can click on each state to see their individual laws/restrictions, etc on abortion

a society, as I'm aware of it, is a group of people who establish a system of law in some way shape or form.

now adding civilized makes it subjective, everyone has different views of what is "civilized".

And MK, almost ALL of the things you mentioned were legal somewhere at some point in time, and the world has survived. Humans most likely will never be able to destroy the world. We may be able to destroy most, if not all, of current life. But not the world, yet anyway.

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 19, 2007 6:03 PM


Sorry all,I was gone for a few[not that all of you missed me or anything]-lol.Anyway,have to play catch up on posts before answering.

Posted by: momof3 at March 19, 2007 9:22 PM


Well,After reading the posts it looks like everything was taken care of. MK,I thank you. That would have been my answer exactly! I will say to you Samantha,I AM sorry for Gerri Twerdy[botched abortion] just as I am sorry for Christen Gilbert[botched abortion] I didn't say that Christen Gilbert's parents were blameless.They WERE part to blame.Christen was retarded,and she was not able to fend for herself.I was having trouble trying to figure out why a 28 year old woman would allow a man to even ATTEMPT an abortion on her.-especially 6 months into a pregnancy]It would be like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.It was an awful ending for both women.

Posted by: momof3 at March 19, 2007 10:06 PM


I missed you, Mom!

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 20, 2007 6:26 AM


Thanks Jill.Likewise.

Posted by: momof3 at March 20, 2007 7:34 AM


His man, I was referring to the idea of a an artificial, non-human womb, much like the life-support systems that premature babies today have to be put on. We need to improve upon this technology...I have actually spoken to a vehemently pro-life man about this and he agrees with me...the purpose of abortion is to end a pregnancy, not a life. It's just a sad symptom that today's technology can't solve that problem. The thing is, with an artificial womb idea, the woman may abort a live fetus early in her pregnancy, and this fetus may then be put on a life support machine to allow it to continue developing. This way, she regains her bodily autonomy, doesn't form a nine-month bond with the fetus (which makes it so hard for a woman to give up a baby for adoption), the baby lives for the requisite 8 months, and abortion as we know it today can be changed to meaning "the end of a pregnancy", not the "end of a human life". The woman may even be given the option of taking the baby home after nine months of development...this is also a plus in dangerous pregnancies!! I'm all for allowing women to have the right to be or to not be pregnant. Of course, a woman who wants to have a natural pregnancy is more than within her right to do so. This is how I, as a pro-choicer, would seek to solve the problem of today's abortions. We're just not trying hard enough to please both sides.

Posted by: Alyssa at March 22, 2007 4:49 PM


I meant "requisite 9 months" in the above post...sorry for the typo

Posted by: Alyssa at March 22, 2007 4:50 PM


Alyssa,

"please both sides"? No, absolutely not, peace comes only through total victory.

My goal is to destroy legal abortion and we will win, just as slavery was abolished.

Legal abotion must be destroyed completely. You can't please the devil.

If you want to develop an artifical womb to save the life of a fetus because oterwise the fetus would die not due to a "choice" but to to a medical condition, I might buy that. The right to murder an unborn fetus is not a right; it is a phantom, it doesn't exist, it's imagined.

Abortion is murder and abortionists are murderers.

Posted by: His Man Author Profile Page at March 22, 2007 9:07 PM


His Man, abortion WOULDNT BE "MURDER" as you put it if the artificial womb is developed. the fetus would live and then could be put into the foster care system. making it illegal when nothing/no one is harmed is just ridiculous. It does nothing to help your cause if the technology is available for an artificial womb that would give each side what they want, the right to bodily integrity, and the fetus gets to be born.

Posted by: Dan Author Profile Page at March 23, 2007 9:38 PM