Lazy and vacuous.

Sup Cam?

Was that comment about me, about God's words or yourself?

Actually, I think it was referring to your blog, as all you did was pluck quotes out of a Bible that not all of us believe.

Less,

Why don't you believe the Bible is God's word?

And I'm really confused now.

Is Less Cameron or Cameron Less?

HisMan, I have explained several times to you why I don't believe the Bible to be holy, and you never responded. Would you like me to copy/paste exactly what I said, or are you willing to go back and find it?

Less,

Are you saying that you don't believe the Bible because you think it is not holy or is there another reason?

Beautiful verses Hisman.

My favorite "womb verse" is Luke 1:41

"5Mary didn't waste a minute. She got up and traveled to a town in Judah in the hill country, straight to Zachariah's house, and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby in her womb leaped. She was filled with the Holy Spirit, and sang out exuberantly,

You're so blessed among women,
and the babe in your womb, also blessed!
And why am I so blessed that
the mother of my Lord visits me?
The moment the sound of your
greeting entered my ears,
The babe in my womb
skipped like a lamb for sheer joy.
Blessed woman, who believed what God said,
believed every word would come true!"

The Message

I love that the fetal John the Baptist leaps and is filled with the Holy Ghost when in the presence of an embryonic Christ!

Lauren,

Amazing that John the Baptist lept in the womb.

Sounds to me like he was a person.

We need more Marys in the world don't you think?

Don't even get him started Less... he's a feed-back junky!

Cameron,

And you're a voyeur and pretty rude.

Just get off and go away please.

Agreed Hisman!

Less,

You've commented before about how God told people to kill, etc.

Is that why you think the Bible isn't holy?

Are you sure you're reading passages in context?

Perhaps Lauren can help us out here?

For those of you not interested in helping His Man get his cyber rocks off...

Val's got a great blog post today... right before this one. Good discussion fodder.

Less,

I know this. God is holy. He is Sovereign. He does what He wants. I know He doesn't lie. I know He loves us more than we can know and our only hope is in Him. Don't you think that's worth a deep study?

It's a mistake to make a judgement about God if we don't look at the historical context of each book.

Would you pick up a medical journal and do that? If someone made a conclusion that doctors were quacks based on a few articles they didn't read in a medical textbook without a thorough study of the backround, context, etc. would you think very highly of that person?

See ya Cam.

Dude...I was a way cuter embryo than the embryo used in your pictures. I was also a way awesome fetus...I could speak Korean, Arabic, and Russian at the age of 8 weeks.

Unfortunately, it was all down hill from there. Ah, how I miss my fetalhood.

Cameron,

Since you vaccillate between being a rather intelligent pro-deather and a juvenile, my guess would be that you still masturbate regularly?

Can't get girls? What is it?

Are you just ugly? Zits maybe?

Or, don't tell me, I know, it's your lame personality.

Rae,

I actually think He was real pleased at what He made.

Cameron,

I'm sorry. Guess you're the thorn in my flesh since you do know how to get under my skin. Once a day, twice a day, no, don't tell me fives times a day?

Nah, I think he regrets getting involved in my conception...especially as it was a rather debaucherous conception at that, considering I am an IVF baby.

HisMan, isn't it you that is always saying that a pro-choicer does nothing but make insults when they have no response?

Why do you think it's ok to make assumptions and insults towards those that don't believe the same thing you do?

Mkay hisman.
I am not here to be mean but to explain to you why people get so mad about these posts of yours.

This is a prolife site, we are not here to argue the exsitence of god, or about religion. If you believe that abortion should be illegal for religious reasons you know as well as anyone else that is not a VALID reason for it to be illegal, this country is not based on any one religion.
We would just like to debate over facts, not religion.

HisMan, on cams final note, Val set up a GREAT post today where she said NO NAME CALLING.
We are all adults and we don't need to stoop to silly name calling.
That said I would like to apologize to your daughter for the other night, she did nothing wrong.
Please be an adult HisMan.

EDIT

Religion is a valid reason for abortion to not be right for YOU, you just can't force that reasoning on anyone else

Wow, His Man, you sure know how to quote a book myths and fairy tales. I would throw out some Mother Goose quotes, but none of them are relevant.

Jodes,

Hey. You new? Welcome.

You know, I will admit I have this dark side that wants to just give back what I get.

If you look a few posts back, Cameron starte out with nothing but insults.

So, I didn;t zing him back for what he believes but this guy is always rude. He insulted my daughter the other night. I'd be more than happy to meet him face to face and have him say the things he says to me to my face. I think he's a wimp. I don't care what he believes.

Please HisMan, these comments to Cameron are beneath you. This hardly sounds like anyone sold out to Jesus Christ as I could never imagine Christ saying such things. Its in fact disgusting. I defended you on another thread so reading this kind of garbage from you is disappointing. If you can't give an intelligent argument then please say nothing at all. Everyone, can we keep this discussion civil?

i thought this was a pro-life website. why are you gay bashing and talking about the bible?

Mars,

I agree, let's not bring religion into it, but, let's bring God into it, OK?

If God is not a fact, then what is?

Can't you see Him in everything around you?

Hisman:
i can understand getting frustrated and all that, but if you really want to get someone to listen to you and take you seriously, shouldn't you focus on the issue and not on the person? That seems pretty basic to me...

how can you bring god into it and not religion at the same time?

Mars,

Amen to your post about all of us being adults and no name calling.

I am suprised that hisman finally caved and let us know who he truely is...which is an angry man. At least yesterday you maintained your snide decorum while diagnosing me with...what did you call it...Misplaced Compassion?

If you were actually stong in Christ you would walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Peace.
Erin

Mary,

Cameron 1, Hisman 0.

I let him get to me.

Sorry, to everyone.

Cameron, you man enough to truce it?

I am suprised that hisman finally caved and let us know who he truely is...which is an angry man. At least yesterday you maintained your snide decorum while diagnosing me with...what did you call it...Misplaced Compassion?

If you were actually stong in Christ you would walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Peace.
Erin

hello? hisman why are you ignoring me? huh?

While I disagree with personal attacks, I do not disagree with quoting scripture.

This website is a prolife website, and as such it is important to talk about the inspiration that drives people to be prolife.

I would be equally interested in learning of the sources that inspired any one of you to be pro-choice.

While I believe that there are many secular reasons that abortion should not be legal, I believe that ultimate right and wrong come from God. Many in the pro-choice camp do not.

I know that Hisman is sharing this scripture as an outreach of love. Hisman, I do ask that you try to keep from being offended to the point of snideness. I understand that it is increadibly difficult to put up with contant attack, but in order to lead anyone to Christ we must strive to be patient.

I ask those who are pro-choice to read the scriptures with an open heart. It is so easy to bring personal bias into reading, or to glaze over scripture all together. Remember how fortunate we are to have these scriptures availible. There are so many places in the world where you would not be given such an opportunity!

Wow HisMan - I didnt think you could go much lower than calling my parents "miserable failures"... but wow, you did!

Will you ask forgiveness in confession for being blatently hateful and disgusting and mean?

I've met a lot of religious people in my life, and you are far more like an angry, confused 7th grader than a proud Christian man.

...in fact, Im quite certain at this point that you are not who you say you are. No one could possibly be such a hypocrite, right??

HisMan
No I do not see god anywhere. Again God is reliegion. if you believe in god you are jewish, muslim, or some christian denom, even if you dont affiliate with anyone specifically.

I do not believe in God so any argument you have about god will just be...silly...to me (not that I think there is anything wrong with believing, i couldnt find the right word, silly was the best thing)

It would be like me telling you that I think abortion is bad because the toothfairy told me killing was bad.

The ultimate difference is that you think a fetus has rights and I do not. Lets debate that. with out god. If you can prove to me that a fetus has rights with out saying god, bible or jesus, then you might make a prolifer out of me. Probably not, but more likely

Whoops. Double post. Mea culpa.

Given an opportunity to read what? the bible. why do you believe in something you can not see, hear, or touch? he's like santa claus or the easter bunny...

midnite678-

From what I've seen no one is "gay bashing" simply explaining their biblical views on homosexuality and the their churches teaching.

In most cases scriptures are quoted when someone asks for a reference. This particular post was an attempt to revel God's word to those who might otherwise be ignorant to His teaching. While secular discussion is integral to the aboriton debate, God must stay central in the lives of Christians.

EDIT
Reliegon=religion
I can spell, i swear...

Science proves that a fetus is a cluster of cells. yes, eventually it could become a human. but not when most abortions are done.

Mid,

Religion is man's attempt at reaching up to God. Hence, all the ritualistic stuff and 1,000's of religions in the world. I don't adhere to that stuff because frankly, God can't be impressed by anything I could do. It's obvious on this blog. I'm far from perfect but always trying to get to know Him more. It's a walk as has been said. Sometimes I stumble.

Christianity is about God revealing Himself to us, on His terms, via Christ. He wants relationship with us.

See the difference?

no not really. i prayed to a ceiling my whole life. if there is a god, why do good things happen to good people then, huh?

Mars,

Do you beleive anything is wrong? I'm sure you do.

Why is murder wrong?

Mars, I've seen several discussions on this website that did not involve religion. This post, however, is indeed spiritual in nature. I'm sure that someone will post a secular debate at some point during the week.

Midnite 678- Do you really want to know about my faith? I'd be happy to tell you, but I won't if you're not intereted in hearing it.

HisMan, the problem with taking the Bible in its "historical context" is that there is very little independent information to verify most of the Bible. There's no proof that David existed, for example, or that Moses lead the people out of Egypt. I can find an appreciation of the Bible as a fiction book, as a work of literature, or even as poetry, in the case of the psalms. But with such a lack of independent proof, I'm afraid that's where it ends.

yes i'd be happy to hear why you believe the fiction. tell me, how do you know who really wrote the bible? you werent around then, how do you know it wasnt a bunch a drunk guys who thought it would be funny to make up a religion (like scientology)?

Midnite678- We are all simply clusters of cells. The biological beginning of life is amazing. Rest assured, upon the moment of conception a unique human life has been formed. There is no scientifc debate in this realm. The debate is determining if these humans are persons in the eyes of the law.

HisMan, You talked about having a jerk bashing post, where is that one? I was excited to have one we could all agree on (guys who leave pregnant gfs)

Religion is okay to explain why YOU believe abortion is wrong BUT when you are trying to explain why it should be ILLEGAL you should use science. If you dont then it is not a valid argument to all. and the government will never (hopefully!) say "OH god says we shouldnt" and make abortion illegal. it will have to come from scientific proof.

SO this boils down to, If you want to explain why YOU would never get an abortion you can talk about religion, if you want to talk about why NO ONE should get an abortion use science

Hisman:
You can't convince someone that something is true when they don't belief in the premise.

It's a futile cause trying to convince someone that anything in the bible is god's word, when they don't believe in god.

If you really want to convince someone that something is wrong/right, then may I suggest convincing them using what they believe in? It makes more of an impact, I find.

Hey Amanda,

Chill.

I've already asked for your forgiveness once. Do you want to keep bashing me?

And Lauren is absolutely right.

Well I don't know Lauren maybe they're looking for some arguements that aren't based on just religion? Many of the people you are arguing with couldn't care less what the bible says cause they don't believe it to be anything other than a piece of literature.

Asking someone who is an atheist to read the bible with an open heart isn't going to do anything. An open mind maybe, but not an open heart because it's not going to affect their heart, if iy was, it would have happened by now don't you think.

As a Christian myself, I'm getting tired of you guys hiding behind the bible, and occasionally taking things out of context. I think we'd all appreciate it if you argued with something other than religion, because it isn't effective.

I'm not saying you should stop playing the God card all together, just plays some other cards as well

yes lauren a life is being formed. hint it isnt formed yet. therefore, abortion is legal and should stay that way. a fetus at conception has no CNS and therefor, no brain, not a life. it can not feel, see, hear, or even care what is going on..

Midnite678- To begin with, I think it important to discuss what the Holy Bible is. It is a collection of writings spanning thousands of years. There is not a single human author of the bible, but many. Though there are many human authors, they were all lead by God. This is why Christians often say that the *real* author of the Bible is God Himself.

We know that a bunch of drunken sciencefiction writers did not create the religion because of this span of authors and traditions. In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls further legitimized the origin of the Bible.

"Do you want to keep bashing me?"

ME bashing YOU?

"bashing" as in.... pointing out the things you've said and how very obviously NOT Christian that behavior is?

If that is bashing, what the hell do you call what you've said to me and some of the other people who DARE to disagree with you here?

and tell me, Mr. UberChristian - what good is forgiveness when you ask for it, and then turn around and do the same thing again?

HisMan, I think murder is wrong because it violates someone elses rights.

A fetus is violating the rights of a woman. Even if a fetus has personhood no person is allowed to leech nutrients and use someone else to live.

Your rights to do what you want end when they affect me. I do not think a womans rights to her body stop at her uterus

Constintine, I argue with MANY other cards than religion. It just happens that the majority of discussion around here has dealt in that arena. I am more than happy to debate abortion in a secular stance.

That said, this particular post is dealing heavily with scripture, and I think that it opens the doors for discussion about said scripture. Perhaps we could move to a different post to deal with secular arguments.

Jodes,

You're right on point. I can't convince anyone of the existence of God. All I can do is try to read and understand God's word and form my values based on that.

That's why I stated in the beginning of the blog that my words don't mean much. Same is true for all of us.

That's why I posted scripture. These are not my words.

If one ignores Scripture I would say that would be close minded, wouldn't you?

Less makes the same point that she thinks the Bible is not holy. My question would be has she studied the whole word or just parts and made a prejudiced decision? Not willing to let go?

Ultimately, I believe we are responsible for ourselves and ourseles only. No one will answer for me except me.

um lauren, the catholic church said the dead sea scrolls were not real. or did you just forget that part?

midnite-A fetus is forming the same way an infant is forming or a teenager is forming. Life is a continuem. We are all froming until we die. This is a non-disputed scientific fact. A fetus is simply a human at a set point in development.

Defining life in any way other than intrinsic humanity is a recipie for disaster. If we begin setting benchmarks for humanity, anyone falling short becomes dehumanized. Infants are not even self aware until 18 months, yet they are afforded all rights of humanity. Their lack of societal function at even the most basic level does not prevent them from securing human rights.

[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

Hisman:
If you say no one can answer for you except for you, then why are you trying to tell a women what she can and can't do with her body?

HisMan, I've read the entire Bible. I've taken classes on the Bible. I've read other books on the Bible. Not once have I ever been convinced that anything more than the usual reverence I have for works of literature should be bestowed upon it.

Hisman-

Why am I not getting any judgement this evening, I am starting to feel like you may dislike me.

Peace.Erin

Lauren: here is the thing, no one said the bible was written by sciencefiction nerds LOL...it would sound more like starwars if it had been.

Have you ever played the game telephone? I feel like that is probably what has happened to the bible over time and you can no longer take it as it is...you need more than one grain of salt...Like, jesus was a real guy who did great stuff, but he probably never walked on water, that was just some very imaginative fan writing about that.

I think the bible was written at a time when no one understood the world around them and they needed answers. I think it helped keep law and order for many years. but it is not needed anymore, we have a better understanding of the world around us.

Lauren, I am aware that this post was based on scripture, that was Hisman's fault not yours, I was reposnding directly to what you said about how you don't disagree to quoting scripture. Ehich is fine, I was merely pointing out that scripture on it's own will not make a valid argument.

20.40] When your sister went and said: Shall I direct you to one who will take charge of him? So We brought you back to your mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve and you killed a man, then We delivered you from the grief, and We tried you with (a severe) trying. Then you stayed for years among the people of Madyan; then you came hither as ordained, O Musa.

midnite678- I'm not Catholic.

hello? lauren are you reading what i wrote? apparently not, let me "refresh your memory". a fetus has no CNS (central nervous system) w/o a CNS, there is no brain. And if you have no brain, you are dead. If your brain dies right now, yes a machine may keep your breathing, but ultimately you are dead. Therefor, abortions are legal, and will stay that way. God has nothing to do with abortions being legal or illegal.

Mars,

So for you a fetus has no rights?

Mars, I was refering to midnites question that referenced scientology. Scientology was in fact created by science fiction authors (well one in particular, but it was in context of a bet) I thought that was what Mindnites was talking about. Sorry for any confusion.

VI, 20.1. As if from this Agni (fire), that burns and flashes, (the takman) comes. Let him then, too, as a babbling drunkard, pass away! Let him, the impious one, search out some other person, not ourselves! Reverence be to the takman with the burning weapon!

HisMan, I was starting to think you hadnt seen that.

It is not that I think a fetus has no rights, even if i think a fetus has rights it is still infringing on someone elses rights and there for it has voided its own rights, if it infact had rights

nope a fetus does not have rights to me. it is using my body and my nutrients, kind like a parasite if you think about it hisman. would you let a leech live on you for nine months? i think not

Oh sorry Lauren...

Scientology...ha ha ha with out it Tom Cruise might still be normal...

a fetus has rights. it has the right to be wanted.

midnites- I am reading what you said but I am taking the essence of your arguement and responding with my own.

I didn't realize that it hinged on a central nervous system. You realize, I'm sure that the CNS has already differentiated and begun early function at 5weeks. This is a point far earlier than any surgical abortiton could be performed. In fact, this is a point earlier than most women even realize they are pregnant.

At 5 weeks of development the CNS is a hollow tube that runs the lenght of the body. A series of cartilages appears in teh mesenchyme of the head beneath and alongside of the expanding brain and around the devloping nose,eyes and ears.

As you can see, your theory that these structures are non-existant is simply scientifically inaccurate.

My point still stands that functional devleopment is irrelavent to humanity, but I hope this addresses your claim more clearly.

The greatest virtue is to follow Tao and Tao alone. The Tao is elusive and intangible. Oh, it is intangible and elusive, and yet within is image. Oh, it is elusive and intangible, and yet within is form. Oh, it is dim and dark, and yet within is essence. This essence is very real, and therein lies faith. From the very beginning till now its name has never been forgotten. Thus I perceive the creation. How do I know the ways of creation? Because of this. (verse 21. tr. Gia Fu Feng)

Erin,

I let my passionate conviction that abortion is murder cloud the fact that there are people in the world who simply don't yet understand or don;t agree.

I like you. You're very, very smart.

But Lauren is right. There's no room for insults any more if we are to try to understand each other.

If we could just get Amanda to forgive and Cameron to just be more serious, perhaps we could get somewhere on this issue of abortion.

I think we are all trying in our own way to do the right thing. We just disagree.

Believe me, and I will let all of you know, Cameron gets under my skin, however, I refuse to sink to his level any more.

Cammeron, can you give context to your scriptures and explain their significance in your life?

Cameron,

I want to....no I won't.

I just laugh.

Cameron has troubles being serious when people talk about religion...which is understandable, he doesnt believe, I understand why he gets mad, I do too

hisman, you didnt answer my question....

"nope a fetus does not have rights to me. it is using my body and my nutrients, kind like a parasite if you think about it hisman. would you let a leech live on you for nine months? i think not"

Hisman, can you answer me?

You said "No one will answer for me except me."

If this is true, then who are you to tell a women what she can do with her body?

I'm very serious about this question, so please answer me.

"The First Action of Beingness is to assume a viewpoint."
Scientology

Midnite678-The maternal/fetal relationship can hardly be described as parasitic/host. It is much closer to a benevolent symbiotic relationship. This means that both parties receive something of benefit from the other.

You say that you disagree with murder because it infringes upon someone else's rights. Does not abortion infringe upon the right of the fetus?

Lauren: What physical benefit does the mother get from being pregnant?

I think Cameron just wants to be the center of attention.

OK, everyone focus on Cameron now, even though we're trying to understand each other's positons on abortion.

Constentina, any words of wisdom for Cameron.

Guys, it really, really hard for me. It's like I have this zit I just want to pop but I can't because I'm in public. Know what I mean?

Lauren, but the fetus is infringing on the rights of the mother.
when you infringe on someone elses rights your own rights are null and void. There for the fetus has no rights

lauren no offense but i asked hisman.

and yes, if i dont want to be with child then it is a parasite in my mind. when i want children (which yes I do one day, just not now) i will look at it that way.

and not all murder is illegal lauren, do you know anything about the justice system?

Lauren, as she explained before. The Fetus, by infringing on the rights of the Woman, is giving up their rights to life. Just like when a Murder kills someone and is infringing someone's right to live, they are giving up their right to freedom.

First Kaang created a wondrous tree, with branches stretching over the entire country. At the base of the tree he dug a hole that reached all the way down into the world where the people and animals lived. After he had finished furnishing the world as he pleased he led the first man up the hole. He sat down on the edge of the hole and soon the first woman came up out of it. Soon all the people were gathered at the foot of the tree, awed by the world they had just entered. Next, Kaang began helping the animals climb out of the hole. In their eagerness some of the animals found a way to climb up through the tree's roots and come out of the branches. They continued racing out of the world beneath until all of the animals were out.

African Creation Myth

HisMan
Cameron isn't saying anything bad right now...

I think maybe you need to forgive him...

HisMan -

you didnt answer my question... how does forgiveness work if you turn around and do the same thing you asked forgiveness for again and again?

and you've said before if anyone ever even mentioned hurting your family, youd "beat them up". So pardon me for finding it a little odd youd be so protective of your own family, and then feel its perfectly ok to BASH mine in the same breath.

so "Cameron gets under your skin" is the sorry excuse you use for your behavior towards him... what hideous sin did I commit to illicit the same treatment from you?

I am normally, for the record, a very forgiving person. But a prerequisite for accepting an apology is knowing the person is actually sorry, and not just trying to shut me up.

Mid,

(Can I call you Mid?)

No I wouldn't want a leech living on me for nine months.

But you've got to remember that your DNA is in that fetus that's attached your body. You've had those eggs inside of you since how long?

And specifically, why do we have reproductive organs?

Are they an accident?

"Guys, it really, really hard for me. It's like I have this zit I just want to pop but I can't because I'm in public. Know what I mean?"

His Man: Did you just compare Cameron to a zit?

Constantine, I'm afraid I missed the "forfit of rights" argument.

Does a conjoined twin forfit his right to life simply because he is attached to his brother? Furthermore, could anyone forfit rights because they unwittingly attached themselves to another.

Could a Jr. High girl kill her boyfriend because he became attached to her via their braces?

my eggs that i have, i was born with. a woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have in her lifetime. we have reproductive organs to have children (i am not stupid), and not they are not by accident, they are there for having children and having sex.

some woman do not want a child or can not care for a child.

i'm glad to know you wouldnt want a parasite on you for nine months. but what if it was inside you and made you gain a bunch of weight while it "occupied" your body...

tell me this, which is worse, a person having an abortion, or hiding her pregnancy and then killing the child as soon as it is born. which would you rather happen? pain or no pain for the child?

The Doctrine of the Mean. Chapter 1.

3. There is nothing more visible than what is secret, and nothing more manifest than what is minute. Therefore the superior man is watchful over himself, when he is alone.

Lauren... will the boyfriend die when they detach?
uhh...Nope.

sorry but thats an AWFUL analogy.

Amanda,

You are right. I've stopped, OK?

Lauren and Mary set me right.

Jesus says to forgive 70 times 7 which means there's no limit. Good thing for me, right?

However, I don't think it's reasonable to let someone beat you over the head continually. I don't think that's what He meant though.

So, what's it gonna take for us to make up?

Lauren:
Conjoined twins that feed off eachother are usually separated and one dies, sad but necessary for quality of life.
and the jr high example. thats rediculous and you know it. she would get her braces removed...worst case scenario.

Hisman, have you forgotten my question, or do you refuse to answer me?

I'll repeat it, just in case...

You said "No one will answer for me except me."

If this is true, then who are you to tell a women what she can do with her body?

I'm very serious about this question, so please answer me.

THE ISLAND OF ONOGORO

Hereupon all the Heavenly deities commanded the two deities His Augustness the Male-Who-Invites and Her Augustness the Female-Who-Invites, ordering them to "make, consolidate, and give birth to this drifting land." Granting to them a heavenly jeweled spear, they thus deigned to charge them. So the two deities, standing upon the Floating Bridge of Heaven pushed down the jeweled spear and stirred with it, whereupon, when they had stirred the brine till it went curdle-curdle, and drew the spear up, the brine that dripped down from the end of the spear was piled up and became an island. This is the Island of Onogoro.

Kojiki (Shinto record of acient matters)

hey lauren, if a guy broke into your house and infringed on your rights (i.e. raped you) you would kill him in self-defense?

Rae- (sorry it took so long for me to answer you, I didn't see it the first time through!)

One of the most obvious benefits most pregnant women receive from pregnancy is the "Olympic phenomena" (that's not the actual term, that's just what I calle it ;))

Basically there is a chemcical called Erythropoietin. This chemical is naturally occuring and aids in Oxygen transfer. Professional athletes often dope their blood by sleeping in O2 tents and injecting it later in order to have more of this chemical circulating in their blood stream.

You can read about this here:

http://www.litmuszine.com/sportsology/3.05.07a.html

During pregnancy, the placenta sends signals that cause the liver to produce more of this chemical for the mother in order to counterbalance the increased blood consumption needs.

The net affect is that many women get a "super woman" type endurance that enables them to go further with physical exertion than they previously could.

Of course, this is counterbalanced as the pregnancy progresses and the fetus becomes more demanding. By the time this point has been reached, the child is well into viability.

I hope this explains one way pregnancy is beneficial to most women. (I say most because in certain women with heart conditions this increased chemical is not beneficial.)

The rapist would have obviously willing infringed upon my rights while the fetus was created by my action. Even in the case of a child conceived by rape the child is not culpable in the intrusion. The two can not be compared when justifying lethal measure.

Mid,

Didn't say you were stupid.

Aren't both things you described wrong?

That's why we need a whole new approach to this abortion issue.

It can't be legal, however, society must provide for the needs of the mother so that she wouldn't want to kill her baby.

If you don't want to get pregnant, don't get pregnant.

Why would a woman who doesn't want to get pregnant do anything that would possibly allow her to get pregnant?

"Enshrine the Lord’s Name within your heart. The Word of the Guru’s Bani prevails throughout the world; through this Bani, the Lord’s Name is obtained." (Guru Amar Das, Maru, pg. 1066)

yes it can. the rapist infringed on your rights as a human, so you killed him via self defense. the fetus infringe on womans rights so they have the fetus aborted. plain and simple, the exact same thing.

and your telling me if you concieved a child from rape you would carry it to term?

Mars, usually yes there is one that is removed and dies, but this is only done if they can not both survive.

Abortion is akin to one twin deciding independent of the other to have the weaker removed. If this action results in the death of the weaker, the stronger is obviously guilty.

As for braces, yes worst case scenerio the braces are removed. It is a finite situation. Pregancy too if finite. Worse case scenerio the pregancy ends and a child is born.

Jodes,

I'll answer to God as you will.

He says choose life. To not do so I think would be an offence to him.

HisMan:

Most abortions are because of failed BC.

Now, sex=/= Baby making...or else girls would go into heat and we would only want sex during that time.

"All the People met in a great Pow-wow, with the Animal and Bird People taking the lead, and the Human People hanging back. The Animal and Bird People decided that dark was not good, but cold and miserable. A solution must be found!!! Someone spoke from the dark, "I have heard that the people in the East have fire". This caused a stir of wonder, "What could fire be"!!! There was a general discussion, and it was decided that if, as-rumor-had-it, fire was warm and gave light, they should have it too. Another voice said, "But the people of the East are too greedy to share with us". So it was decided that the Bird and Animal People should steal what they needed, the fire!!!"

from Choctow Indian's creation myth

Midnite 678- I would carry a child conceived through rape to term without question. The child did nothing to me, and is equally mine as the rapists.

The cases between the rapist and the child are not equitable because the child has no intent and the rapist intent is quite clear. I have yet to state my opinion about killing the rapist, because it is irrelivent due to the massive difference in nature.

It is like asking me if I would kill my child because he accidentally flung his hand into my mouth (though less, because the fetus in the case of abortion has not even this level of culpability)

Obviously, an accidental infringement on my bodily domain is quite different than someone forcefully and willfully invading.

Thanks Lauren, that's interesting stuff. :)

Hisman:

I will not answer to god.

I am undecided on the abortion issue, even though i tend to see things easier from the pro-choice side. This is because the only answers I can get from the pro-life side is based on religion.

I truly do want to be informed on the issue before i choose a side, but I do not believe in god the same way that you do.

So, please, can you answer me without god being the only answer?

If you won't allow someone to speak for you, aka tell you what is right or wrong, then how is it that you are so comfortable telling a woman what is right or wrong for them?

Mars,

I know. Despite a lot of effort against it, life wants to happen.

So one of the purposes of sex is to procreate? Would you agree?

No problem Rae, I'm an A&P nerd.

(Samaysaar) verse 17-18 that - in the current knowing state of all souls, young or old, their own pure substance alone is being experienced, but the unaware does not have his attention on it. Aha! Our soul is such that in our knowledge the whole substance is known because the nature of the knowing state is to illuminate self and non-self. But his (unaware soul's) attention is not on him self but instead is on non-self, it is on the state and raag. That's why, although his own pure substance is being known, he ignores it and believes that "I am raag and part-only (i.e. state-only)".

"I'll answer to God as you will.

He says choose life. To not do so I think would be an offence to him."

Every thing offends that dude.

PS- It should be "offense." :P

um, ok lauren whatever...

and yes the fetus is willingfully infringing on my rights if i dont want it there

Lauren, no worst case scenario could include any or a mix of the following:
Bacterial Vaginosis
Bed Rest
Bleeding During Pregnancy
Blighted Ovum
Cervical Cerclage
Chicken Pox
Cholestasis of Pregnancy
Common Pregnancy Complications
Concerns regarding Early Fetal Development
Cytomegalovirus (CMV) Infection
D&C procedure after a Miscarriage
Ectopic Pregnancy
Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders (FASD); Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) & Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE)
Fetal Growth Restriction
Gestational Diabetes
Group B Strep Infection
High Amniotic Fluid Levels : Polyhydramnios
HIV/AIDS during Pregnancy
Hyperemesis Gravidarum
Incompetent Cervix
Intrauterine Growth Restriction (IUGR): Small for Gestational Age (SGA)
Listeria
Low Amniotic Fluid Levels : Oligohydramnios
Miscarriage
Molar Pregnancy
Placenta Accreta
Placenta Previa
Placental Abruption
Preeclampsia
Pregnancy Induced Hypertension (PIH)
RH Factor
STD'S & STI'S During Pregnancy
Tipped Uterus
Toxoplasmosis
Urinary Tract Infection
Yeast Infection

Lauren: What does "A&P" mean?

Hi ya'll. Jodes, you said you are still kinda in the middle of the abortion debate. I recommend the website abort73. Excellent resources, pictures, and articles about abortion. It is a pro-life website, but since you are concerned about religion I don't believe they go into that.

Jodes, I have provided alot of answers to common pro-choice questions in this thread. I know it's been moving REALLY quickly but I hope you'll take a look to see some biological/philosophical reasoning behind the pro-life cause. (Not that I'm the end-all be all of all things pro-life Lol!)

"To do this it was determined that soil from the bottom of the primal sea should be brought up and placed on the broad, firm carapace of the Turtle, where it would increase in size to such an extent that it would accommodate all the creatures that should be produced thereafter. After much discussion the toad was finally persuaded to dive to the bottom of the waters in search of soil. Bravely making the attempt, he succeeded in bringing up soil from the depths of the sea. This was carefully spread over the carapace of the Turtle, and at once both began to grow in size and depth."

from Seneca creation myth; the woman who fell from the sky

SH: abort73 is NOT a good website...please don't make me laugh.

Jodes,

No God, no point to life.

OH LOL sorry Rae. Anatomy and Physiology!

"I would carry a child conceived through rape to term without question. The child did nothing to me, and is equally mine as the rapists."

Good for you. And I wish you strength to get through the trauma of being raped along with being pregnant (seriously). But not many other women would be that strong. I know I wouldn't. I would have trouble coping with rape let alone having my rapist's child growing inside of me. *shiver*

So His Man, since I don't believe in God, should I just off myself as there is no point to me living?

Mars, you know I can produce the exact same list for possible risks of abortion.

HisMan...who is trying to stop life as a whole? I may be pro choice but I am not "prodeath" as you like to call us.
That would be as rediculous as me calling you "pro killing women through pregnancy"

ONE of the MANY reasons for sex is procreation.

PS sorry that list above is incorrect, just disregard. I will have the correct one in a second...I copied the wrong thing

"No God, no point to life."

That's sad. And pathetic... And sad. You really need a God to give you meaning to live your life? How sad...

Lauren, you definitely have some awesome points and argue the the pro-life side very well I think.

Danielle,

Feeling better? Were you offended?

Hisman:

With that one statement you just told me that my life is not worth living.

"I recommend the website abort73. Excellent resources, pictures, and articles about abortion. "

*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*

Lots of propaganda BS on that site.

Lauren...I never said "worst case scenario you get an abortion" Like abortion doesnt have any dangers.

YOU said "worst case scenario you have the baby"
like there are no dangers to carrying a baby

Nars,

Do you equate being pregnant with murder?

Well, seeing the reality of abortion is not for everyone.

"No God, No point to life"

well i guess i should just go kill myself then. i have no point in life, even though i am great person, have friends, family and a boyfriend that loves me, and i am in college trying to do something with my life.

ok, i'll go end my pointless existence now...

**cries**

"Feeling better? Were you offended?"

Huh?

Danielle, I know pretty much EVERY woman would have trouble dealing with rape and subsequent pregnancy.

That is why I believe there needs to be intense support for women facing such an unbearable situation. The difference between the pro-choice and pro-life crowd (though some pro-lifers include the rape clause) is that the pro-choice side believes that an abortion can lesson the trama of a rape/pregnancy and the pro-life side believes it will only increase trama.

Can anyone suggest a good website for me then? Something religion free?
Perhaps something that looks at both sides? (is that possible?)

Sorry, Mars.

Mars, I was speaking in terms of the pregnancy ending. There will always be an end to pregnancy, it does not last forever. The worst of these possible endings (at least for someone who does not want to be pregnant) is that they will have to remain pregnant for 9 months and then deliver the child.

The discussion had nothing to do with the dangers of pregnancy, only its finite nature.

Lauren,

If I was raped, I would most likely have an abortion. I could not deal with the trauma of rape along with a pregnancy no matter the support. For the women who do go through with it, I have the utmost respect for them. They are strong and courageous woman.

Wow, I have a great life, and its all without a god in it. Maybe its because I actually have self-confidence.

HisMan, its okay you can call me anything, just dont call me late for dinner...okay done being cheesey.

why would I equate pregnancy with murder. Pregnancy is wonderful and beautiful, to me. but i know to some it is not.
PERSONALLY I cannot wait to start my career and family, but I know every person is different

Having now become well versed in oodles of sacred scriptures from oodles of different religions with oodles of different Gods... and oodles being more than 1 (Bible/God).... I hereby declare that religion empowers the individual to make what is the best choice for their own inherent well-being.

Jones, everything has a bias. I would be happy to explain to you my personal reasons for being pro-life from a non-religious standpoint if you would like.

My email is pope7446@gmail.com

Mid,

What happens after you die, is what I mean?

I have a hope and a future that extends into eternity because of what Christ did for me.

Lauren, I understand that but you act like pregnancy is quick and easy. it is not and some do not want to go through that.

someone being stuck to someone elses braces may last 15 minutes, cause little physical pain and few other problems.

the two simply are not comparable. yes pregnancy ends but the ways it could end can be terrible. getting your bf off your face isnt that bad

what happens when i die hisman? hmm, i hope all of my friends throw a HUGE bash and get shit-tanked just for me. no church, no preacher, just burry my dead body in the ground, and everyonce in awhile bring me flowers...

thats what happens when i did, what about you? i have a feeling i'll outlive you anyway

OMG... you people have been having a discussion???

I thought we just cut and past scripture round here.

HisMan,

Why do you need a meaning to life? Why can't you just enjoy it? Why are you so obsessed with death and what happens after it?

I live for the now. I live to be loved. I live to accomplish my dreams.

Who cares if there's nothing beyond that? I'm living a good life and that's all that matters to me.

i concur with danielle

Well, I guess my above is kind of a meaning of life... *shrug*

Mars,

I guess it would be wrong of me to question anyones motives, however, since my life and values are based on God's word I have a duty and obligation to speak and act where I think there is injustice.

For me, abortion is one of the biggest injustices on the planet and for me to sit by and just let it happen would be cowardly.

As much as Jesus was for children, I think he would be pro-life as is demonstrated on the Scriptures I posted.

but you cant back up your reason with out using religion damn it! give me another reason, and leave god and religion out of it (they are the same thing)

His Man: Why is abortion the greatest injustice? What about starvation in third world countries, being unable to afford food or not having food available to due to drought?

Or how the US ignored the genocide in the Sudan, Rwanda, Bosnia, and what not? Where's the justice in that? Where's the justice in the US supporting brutal dictators or even helping said dictators into power solely because they promise to keep US interests in mind?

Where's the justice in knowing that no matter how hard you work no matter how you struggle, you will always be oppressed because you are a minority? Where's the justice in being persecuted because of the color of your skin, your religion, your gender, or your sexuality?

Honestly, if you think abortion's the single greatest injustice, you have your priorities seriously screwed up, and I feel sorry for you because of that.

Rae,

RAmen, sister!! ^_^

Danielle,

I don't think you will feel the same way when you finally realize that your death is approaching.

You can say what you say now because you are young and you perceive death to be in the far distant future. That's called the "pride of life".

Besides, He said He would come like a thief in the night. That is, when you least expect it. I choose to be ready.

I'm mot focused on death, no, I am focused on life.

I am smart enough to know that death will come as well as what's on the other side. I am not in denial of it. I look at it square in the face as say, "I am more than a conquerer through Christ Jesus my Lord".

I think many deny that death will come as acoping mechanism.

oh bullshit

and how do you know whats on the other side if you are alive. did you dream it or something? come on, i was actually dead for one minute and nothing, no light, my life didnt flash in front me, nothing. so how the hell do you know. (and this happend when i went to church and believed in a god)

Mid,

Please be patient.

Ask the question again and I will try to answer without God in it as you requested.

Mid,

Faith.

"I don't think you will feel the same way when you finally realize that your death is approaching.

You can say what you say now because you are young and you perceive death to be in the far distant future. That's called the "pride of life"."

I doubt it. I've already faced death and won. And after what happened at VT, I'd be dumb to think that college students are untouchable. And right now I'm hoping that it doesn't happen at my old high school (there were threats and so far one kid has been arrested).

"I think many deny that death will come as acoping mechanism."

And I believe that many believe in God as a coping mechanism those who choose religion. Because they have a fear of death and fear that their life means nothing in the grand scheme of things, they create an afterlife to give them hope where there would otherwise be panic.

Mars, Haha trust me I *know* pregnancy is not quick and easy.

I bled my entire pregnancy and was hospitalized for 2 months! Even so, I do not believe that the hardships of pregnancy justify homicide.

Danielle:
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.

just had to say it

"god is love"

and

"judge not lest ye be judged"

and

"god gave man free will, it is not your place to take that away"

what about those scriptures for ya?

and patientce is not a virtue i possess

and patientce is not a virtue i possess

Rae,

You are absolutely right.

Those are all injustices.

I do what I can. I pray, I give, I teach, I cry too. I try to teach my kids to do the same.

Most of these conditons are the result of people doing bad things.

God cries to when he says in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

As for those of you questioning your purpose seperate from God. I, and most Christians believe that where there is breath there is hope. Basically, if you are alive, God has kept you as such for a reason.

I know that you all might not agree with that interpertation, but that's ok. Just remember, as long as you live, hope exists.

and let me guess you brainwash your children to believe the same crap you do?

HisMan,
Sorry my roommie had to use the computer, but I am back

anyways

That is fine with me. You have proven to me why YOU dont think abortion is okay. You have proven why abortion is wrong for you. I respect that. I also respect that you understand you should not question other peoples motives. So do I. That is why I think the choice should be that womans to make and NO ONE elses.

Personally I am all for figuring out better birth control, or a way to remove a fetus with out killing it, but as it is that is not possible.

Mid,

Yes God is love.

Judge not lest ye be judged, true, does that mean I not supposed to "Go ye" and speak the word?

I don't think the third one is a passage in the Bible, however, I can glean that meanign as I can come to the conclusion that abortion is wrong.

and let me guess you brainwash your children to believe the same crap you do?

Midnite-

God is love, yet He hates sin. You are right that we are not called to judge. We are, however, called to rightousness, and to spread God's Word throughout the land. We are calle to be "salt and light". It is not our place to judge individual sinners, yet it is our place to profess God's teaching on specific subjects.

Basically it would be wrong in God's eyes for me to go up to a random stranger and say "Hey, you are going to Hell because you are a gluton".

It is not wrong to say "Gluttony is a Sin, God wants you to walk with Him. In order to walk with Him we must forsake our former life. Would you like to walk with him?"

It's a subtle difference, and I know sometimes Christians come across with the former. If there is love in our hearts, I pray that we reach out as messengers of Truth. That said, we do no good if we lie about the teachings of God.

Gotta Go.

May you find Him.

can you help me find santa, i miss him more : )

God cries?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/Dreamer7787/biblecount.jpg

So what about the fact that he killed +2 million people in the bible. Not to mention that he pretty much kills everyone in the end.

Hisman:
There is a difference in spreading the word of yor god and judging people.

I see no problem in you telling people what you believe.
But I see a problem in you tell people that without your beliefs their life has no meaning, that they are going to hell, and that their morals are wrong.

"Gotta Go.

May you find Him."

Someone's playing hide and seek?? Don't feel like playing.

Totally off subject but about santa.
My little sister was 13 when she stopped believing in santa. Some ass at school told her and she cried for like 3 hours. I hope i never find him...
She is so precious.

wait mars, santa is at my school, sweet!!

Danielle: I bought a shirt that has Jesus hiding in some bushes and the caption is, "If I have to find Jesus, does that mean he's hiding?"

I felt like such an idiot when I found out Santa wasn't real. I seriously believed until like 8th grade. It came up in a discussion in one of may classes (like you wouldn't believe this kind of like you don't believe in Santa or something like that). I was like, huh? Hope my face didn't show it! lol

Send him over to my sis LOL

I miss santa too.

My sis used to write letters for the tooth fairy too. my mom and I took them and we would write back. My little sister is so fun...even though she is 14 now...yuck

Haha, I've seen that shirt! I laughed so hard when I say it. I wish I had money to buy novelties tees more often. :( They have some really cool ones on line and Hot Topic. But I'm poor. Pretty much all of my clothes have holes in them somewhere from being worn so often.

LOL
whenever missionaries ask if i have found jesus I want to grab a net and say, yeah i have him cornered come and help me catch him, we can put him in this here jar...

YOMANK!!!

But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening." Judith Arcana, abortion activist, at a London seminar, October 1999

nice.

Rae,

His Man: Did you just compare Cameron to a zit?
Posted by: Rae at April 19,

I think that was right after midnight called a baby a leech...

2007 11:26 PM

I think that was right after Midnight called a baby a leech...

"nope a fetus does not have rights to me. it is using my body and my nutrients, kind like a parasite if you think about it hisman. would you let a leech live on you for nine months? i think not"
Posted by: midnite678 at April 19, 2007 11:13 PM

But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening." Judith Arcana, abortion activist, at a London seminar, October 1999

Do I sense a contradiction? Judith Arcana is hughe in the pro abortion movement...

um, ok lauren whatever...

and yes the fetus is willingfully infringing on my rights if i dont want it there
Posted by: midnite678 at April 19, 2007 11:45 PM

Um, ok midnite...but I thought that earlier you said the baby has no central nervous system, so how could it willingly do anything?

mk

Good for you. And I wish you strength to get through the trauma of being raped along with being pregnant (seriously). But not many other women would be that strong. I know I wouldn't. I would have trouble coping with rape let alone having my rapist's child growing inside of me. *shiver*
Posted by: Danielle at April 19, 2007 11:48 PM

Isn't feminism supposed to be all about women and their strength.

I find it odd that in this circumstances you feel that women are to weak to carry a child for 9 months...that she'd feel she has to murder it because she wasn't strong enough to carry it.

Doesn't speak well for women. What happened to "I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar !" Maybe it should be "I am woman, hear me whimper..."

mk

Cameron,

I taught kids for over 12 years, and I must say you remind me of the ones that I always had sit next to me. Always had to hold hands with, so they couldn't cause trouble. The one responsible for my Tylenol bill...

And yet, oddly enough, come years end these guys usually turned out to be my favorites. And while I have forgotten the names and faces of most of the kids, these are etched in my brain forever.

Now go brush your teeth and comb your hair. Your school bus is almost here...

MK

"I find it odd that in this circumstances you feel that women are to weak to carry a child for 9 months...that she'd feel she has to murder it because she wasn't strong enough to carry it."

I admire every woman who has the strength to go through that. Really. But I could never to that and I don't feel that any woman should be forced to muster that strength.
Besides, we had the "murder" discussion already. Let's stick with "abortion", okay?

boy is this a long thread ..............

unlike HisMan, I have a bit of a philopsophical bend. It has afforded me a perception on life that is somewhat unusual but it'd nearness to reality is .............

A HUMANE PHILOSOPHY ....

If you draw three interlocking circles (can be the same size, but do not have-to-be) + 1 large circle encompassing the 3 others ... to each circle attach a word. To the smallest-inner put 'physical'; to the mid-size-inner one put 'intellectual'; to the larger-inner one put 'emotional'; and, to the largest-outside one place the word 'faith'. For each of these there is a goal or end-point: 'physical > purpose' for 'intellectual > understanding' for 'emotional > meaning' and for 'faith > significance'.

Almost every single word you can think of fits somewhere into this frame. It is totally non-religious .... although there is a philosophical 'fact' that God's existence cannot be disproved .... it is a 'belief-faith' that God does not exist .... sorry, the atheist position is convenient-c**p ... I[Aquinas actually] can prove (6) ways that philosophically 'God DOES exist.' This is philosophy and not religion.

As an aside, can there be any form of significance without God? Danielle's (and others) assert that there does not have to be a God to have a life with meaning. Agreed on 'meaning', but can significance exist without God?

There is a strong time-line to this understanding ... 1 - physical growth ... from conception to puberty; 2 - intellectual growth ... (usually) 18yrs - 30 yrs; emotional growth birth of a baby - old age; faith .... shifts and grows with age.

[It is very humorous when someone says I stopped belief at year- ___. What they have done is start believing in a different reality and assume that there is no way such fits into a religious belief system.]

Abortion is wrong because it interrupts this whole growth cycle and assumes a dominance of one stage over another.

I am a bit late to this. I had a talk with the squirell that chewed threw the wires last night which made me lose internet and phone. He said he would be good now.

Anywho - I didn't have time to read everything. But at the end I did notice some wanted someone to explain why abortion was wrong without using religion.

Ask me.

I won't use religion.

(MK - Love ya babe! "I am woman, hear me Whimper" needs to be the pro-choice motto.)

I'm bad. I know. couldn't help it. ;-)

"I find it odd that in this circumstances you feel that women are to weak to carry a child for 9 months...that she'd feel she has to murder it because she wasn't strong enough to carry it."

You got it wrong MK. I don't think the issue is about women and their strength; it's about their power to take command of their lives, and not be forced into pregnancy. If she feels that she is able, all the more power to her.

Stephanie,
I do believe you got it wrong.

I was replying to something that Danielle said...

Good for you. And I wish you strength to get through the trauma of being raped along with being pregnant (seriously). But not many other women would be that strong. I know I wouldn't. I would have trouble coping with rape let alone having my rapist's child growing inside of me. *shiver*
Posted by: Danielle at April 19, 2007 11:48 PM

so you see Stephanie, I got it right. By her own admission, she wouldn't have the "strength" to go through with the pregnancy. And the feminist movement is all about the "strenth" of women.

Except I see the pro-choice side as amazingly cowardly and weak when it comes to actually being strong.

Strength means doing things that are hard, sacrificing, facing adversity head on...

Not removing it, running away from it with your tail between your legs, and certainly not picking on things (PERSONS!) smaller and weaker than you are.

Hey HisMan, here's a new one for ya: Fetii Bullies!

mk

Ingrid,

As my mother used to say, "Give the Devil His Due".

I admire every woman who has the strength to go through that. Really. But I could never to that and I don't feel that any woman should be forced to muster that strength.

I have to admire you for admitting your weakness.

I hate what it leads to, but at least you do admit it's a weakness.

Let's hope you are never raped and put into the position of having to kill your baby.

mk

Actually it should be "I am woman, hear me nag."

I think more people would agree with that statement. :D

Hey John,

Are you a "philosomathematician"?.

Wow, you actually had me drawing at my desk.

Great post.

Jodes:

God tells me to proclaim His words part of which says we will answer to Him.

So, if a woman or a man does something wrong, i.e., abortion, I have a duty to my God to proclaim to them that it is wrong.

I will answer to Him for the things he commands me to do.

Rae -

Hear me nag? My husband will love that one!

I just love the pics of the babies in the womb. How precious!