Jill,I just love this picture!It speaks volumes! I have never really watched HOUSE on a regular basis,but I'm glad they "went there."

Jill -

For people that saw this episode (unfortunately I missed it) is there any information on who to contact to let the network and sponsers know how much we appreciate a show like this?

I hope you all realize, that in real life, that mother and fetus would have died...with the extreme measures they used to diagnose the fetus at the expense of the mother, they both would have died.

Though I dare say, it was a good episode. It wasn't necessarily pro-life or pro-choice...it was much more ambiguous than that.

Rae, 10:31a: You're so much smarter than everyone else! Thanks for gracing my site with your supreme intelligence, surgical expertise, and optimism!

Valerie, 10:29a: I just posted a link to view the clip. Go to the site for contact info.

Oh Jill, thank you so much! I'm glad you value my input! :)

If you actually paid attention to the end of the episode House goes into the statistics of what would really happen in that situation and in any other case (99.9%) the mother and fetus would have died had they done what Cuddy had did.

And the whole "fetus grabbing House's finger" or any surgeon's finger thing was debunked...the photo this is based on was improperly captioned.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/thehand.asp

Still Rae,we can all see for ourselves what is going on in that picture.

All I see in that picture is a surgeon putting his finger under the fetus' hand which then reflexibly curls its fingers around it.

But go ahead and keep dreaming dreams. :)

Rae,you do the same.

Rae, 10:31a: You're so much smarter than everyone else! Thanks for gracing my site with your supreme intelligence, surgical expertise, and optimism!

This was too good not to repeat. :D

I'm so glad that you all appreciate my input here. I really appreciate how respectful you all are.

Well I'm off to class, I hope you all have a fantastic day. ^_^

Rae,you'll get some respect when you give some.

momof3, what makes you think I'm not being respectful? All I did was tell you my opinion based on what I know about fetal development and what not.

*shrugs*

And I'm sorry for being a realist.

Rae, 10:54a: Read the last line in Snopes for the key reason the dr. had to downplay Baby Samuel's movement. The baby was underanesthetized.

Another urban legend debunker debunks Snopes:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/babysamuel.htm

The photographer saw what he saw: " Most versions of the story say the baby reached out and grasped Dr. Bruner's finger, but in an article in USA Today on May 2, 2000, Dr. Bruner says both the mother and the baby were under anesthesia and could not move. Michael Clancy, the photographer who took the picture and who owns the copyright to it says, however, that out of the corner of his eye he saw the uterus shake and the baby's hand pop out of the surgical opening on its own. Clancy says that when the doctor put his finger into the baby's hand, the baby squeezed the finger and held on."

As to your hope we all have a "fantastic day," I wish you the same. I wonder, when was the last time you did?

hillarious.

Jill - your obsession with fictional media is really interesting.

House is a fictional television show. Of all of the medical shows on TV, House is the most far fetched - involving this miracle doctor who discovers dieases that aren't usually discovered until autopsy, and curing diseases that can't actually be cured. They use unconventional, and many times ILLEGAL treatment methods, and plenty of other things that make this show and reality VERY distant relatives. Thats not to say its not a great show - its actually one of my favorites, but fortunately the part of my brain that separates fact from fiction is still functional.

You take this one scene and interpret it as "OMG HOUSE IS PRO LIFE!!" when in reality, the only thing the shows producers give a damn about is RATINGS. And what gets ratings? Controversial topics. Any time you say the word FETUS, many pro lifers get all worked up. Any time you mention a pregnant woman in a health situation, many pro choicers get all worked up.

To make it in to something it obviously wasn't is not only silly, but a little pathetic. Why do you focus so much on fictional media? I mean, if you really want to make valid, persuasive pro-life arguements, wouldnt it be helpful to focus on things that are...umm...real?

I also think its hysterical whats been done with that image, when the surgeon who's hand is in that picture has clearly stated that he picked up the arm, his finger was NOT grasped. He's also pro choice and hates that a photo involving him has been taken so out of context and twisted in to something it never was. Again - FICTION. But if thats all you've got to work with, I guess by all means...

P.S. Face facts, Rae. You're no realist. You're a pessimist's pessimist.

"As to your hope we all have a "fantastic day," I wish you the same. I wonder, when was the last time you did?"

Oooh, you burned me good there. I have a fantastic day every day. For example, today is a fantastic day for me as I ended up getting an A on a test I thought I failed.

Besides, I tend to have fantastic days when I take my medications.

"P.S. Face facts, Rae. You're no realist. You're a pessimist's pessimist."

Ouch, that's a zinger there. I think I'll go in a corner and cry.

Point proven....

Wow Jill - coming from someone who said we should be above personal insults, you make a low blow at someones depression?

Classy.

What next, I know you are but what am I?

From an author who claims to be Christian and loves to ride her moral high horse, I see an awful lot of cheap shots, sarcasm, and downright rude behavior.

I'm sure we can all trust a photographer's story any day over a surgeons, the ohotographer clearly has more educatioon and knowledge and studied uteral behavior and fetal movement for much longer than any surgeon, therefore, we should trust the photographer, after all, opinions should always be taken over fact, otherwise, where would we be?

Oh wait...

As someone who has been extensively trained in the use of an AED (that's an Automated Electric Defibrillator, for those of you who don't know), I would like to point out that there is NO WAY the fetus would have survived after the woman was defibed. Absolutely, medically, impossible. The volts that were sent through the woman's heart and the rest of her body would have killed the fetus instantly.

That brings me to my next point - it's a TV show! Granted, it's a bit more medically sound than "Scrubs", but it's still a TV show. Anyone who takes it as the gospel truth needs a rubber room.

Imagine that!An immature,angry,defiant,bitter,argumentive pro-choicer? 2 of them at that!Looking to argue? Very hard to believe.A real shocker!See, they are so confidant in themselves. They know what's best for unborn children,women and men.They know that we're all insane for seeing what we see in a picture. They even wrote the Hollywood script for HOUSE.

I believe while I was gone they phoned their friends.

Yes momof3, we're all ganging up on you! RUN! Or we might brainwash you with our facts and logic...

"An immature,angry,defiant,bitter,argumentive pro-choicer? 2 of them at that!Looking to argue? Very hard to believe.A real shocker!See, they are so confidant in themselves. They know what's best for unborn children,women and men."

Oh good Lord the irony!!

hahaha. Amazing. Best laugh I've had today, thank you!

No,Rocky You're the one that's brainwashed.You don't scare me at all!

"An immature,angry,defiant,bitter,argumentive pro-choicer? 2 of them at that!Looking to argue? Very hard to believe.A real shocker!See, they are so confidant in themselves. They know what's best for unborn children,women and men."

Hello, pot. Have you met kettle? I think you'll be good friends.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pro-lifers are so naive.

That picture has been proven to be wrong about 30 times. Some people just love to hold onto it because they think that humanizing the fetus makes it somehow less wrong to force pregnancy on a woman.

My uterus, my choice not to keep a parasite inside.

"Momof3" how many of your 3 children were you forced to have? What if someone told you while you were pregnant that you HAD to have an abortion, and that it didn't matter what you thought, that you absolutely were not allowed to carry your pregnancy to term? I bet you'd be pretty pissed off that someone was forcing you to do something you didn't want to do.

Yes, alas, all those medical textbooks really are a shameful product of the pro-choice cult.

Amanda,Why is a woman that works in health care acting the way you do? You are frightening! Do you treat your patients this way? Most doctors and nurses would never act this way.Not you! You just jump on the band wagon.

Momof3, I want to know how you believe that we have been brainwashed when we want to reserve the rights that have been given in the first place?

Me > Fetus.

That's just how it is until I choose not to act upon my rights and allow the fetus to make a home in my tummy.

Jill, do you have a life or do you wait for us to come troll on your site for a bit of entertainment?

One thing all of you have in common is the fact that you are all so filled with hate and rage.It seeps out in your posts.

"Amanda,Why is a woman that works in health care acting the way you do? You are frightening! Do you treat your patients this way? Most doctors and nurses would never act this way.Not you! You just jump on the band wagon."

Giving a woman her own choice of what elective medical procedures she chooses to take? That sounds pretty damn awesome to me. It also sounds like a rational and dedicated healthcare provider, one that puts the welfare and desires of her patient above that of her own.

I mean, then again, you probably still are misguided and believe that the morning after pill and birth control are abortive as well.

"One thing all of you have in common is the fact that you are all so filled with hate and rage.It seeps out in your posts."

Actually, I am filled with love. Love for everyone.

The difference between me and, say, you, is that I do not feel I have the authority to speak for everyone's life and decisions, nor do I have the right to judge.

You may believe you are God's special little helper with the gift of preaching, but I'm not quite that naive.

Acting what way, Mom?

Im really curious to know what you're reading in to my posts here that you think is so awful. I dont curse, I dont yell and scream... and you've yet to explain to me how I "mocked" my patient by telling her story.

You keep saying things like..how could I act this way if I work in healthcare. How am I acting? Do you mean simply by stating my opinion, stating facts, and being very firm in my position? There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing what I believe, which happens to be what the majority of the medical community believes. Interestingly enough - the thesis I wrote which ended up getting my a scholarship, an acceptance to grad school, and a competitive internship - was very pro choice.

So please, haha, humor me! Explain all that is wrong with me. Id love to know. And I'll humor you in return and pass your completley unbiased and fair judgements of me on to my boss and my internship supervisor.

=)

" According to the mother who had the surgery, Vanderbilt University, where the procedure took place, and he photographer who took the picture, this story is true. "

From Jill's posted site about the picture.

Dear Jill, please explain to me how the mother who was passed out during surgery or the photographer who has absolutely no medical knowledge and more to gain by creating a false story would have the authority over the doctor?

I'm curious about something. Why are the pro choicers so worked up? Yes, the story is fictional. So what? We liked the theme of the story. What is so wrong with that? Why can't we enjoy a plot in a story without being bombarded with sarcasm? Many TV shows are full of inaccuracy's. So what?

And, why does that picture get you all so worked up? It is an appropriate picture. IF the doctor is pro-choice then who is to say that HE is not the one that might have a distorted memory.

Amanda,you DID mock that girl.Remember the 12 year old that became pregnant and kept her baby? You implied that she was stupid.I don't know of a single doctor or a nurse that has to go around saying HAHAHAHA to prove a point.Sounds a bit juvenile. I hope the medical profession takes a second look at you.You may not even be who you say you are,so it really doesn't matter.However,if you really are an intern at PP you are creepy!

Lemon head,save it would ya? Went through it all yesterday.

The doctor has nothing to gain or lose by saying the arm fell out and that he was tucking it back in.

The photographer has everything to gain by taking the picture and lying about the context in which it was taken.

So basically what you are saying is that you have absolutely no response to what I posted because you are lack the necessary intelligence and reasoning skills to form a coherent response?

CUTE! Are you 12?

I said she was stupid? Really? Where did I say that? Oh wait! I never did.

I said she was against contraception but not opposed to having sex. This is the truth. If YOU are implying something that wasn't said - that is your view, not mine.

You dont know a single doctor or nurse who laughs at things that are funny? Thats interesting.

What evidence do you have to say Im not "who I say I am", and who exactly do I claim to be?

Again with the perrsonal insults. Which makes it funny (as in HAHA) that you comment on us being angry and immature.

You still haven't explained to me "how I act", and why there is anything wrong with me having an opinion and backing it up with factual evidence.

Lemon, 11:52a: 30? Sources, please.

Lemon, 11:55a: I'm always hoping to educate, but failing that, yes.

Lemon, 12:15p: Read my 11:15a post. Perhaps I should explain that "underanesthetized" means "not enough anesthesia."

"Amanda,Why is a woman that works in health care acting the way you do? You are frightening! Do you treat your patients this way? Most doctors and nurses would never act this way.Not you! You just jump on the band wagon."

Momof3, I would expect more maturity out of someone who has birthed three humans into this world. Good lord, you're no better than my 6 year-old niece when she's not allowed to suck her thumb.

"I'm curious about something. Why are the pro choicers so worked up? Yes, the story is fictional. So what? We liked the theme of the story. What is so wrong with that? Why can't we enjoy a plot in a story without being bombarded with sarcasm? Many TV shows are full of inaccuracy's. So what?"

Valerie, we are not worked up about the show. We just don't appreciate a fiction TV show being touted as "proof" for the Pro-Life perspective by Jill and her minions. Like I said, anyone who takes this episode and the show as the gospel truth deserves a rubber room. Unfortunately it will be twisted and manipulated to serve as "support" for the Pro-Life camp, just like that unfortunate baby who was born way too early. She's going to live a life of suffering, and yet she and her mother being called heroes. There's nothingheroic about using an innocent infant for your political cause.

Steph, you get yourselves all worked up. It's how you've been trained as little liberals to combat - take one little bit of information, put it under a wavy microscrope and start frothing, ridiculing, disputing louder and louder.

Back to the post. There was a t.v. show on last night. It was obviously based in part on nonfiction (the baby Samuel photo). It had a pro-life thread, if not theme. I think that's great.

I cover pop culture as well as human events. I cover pro-abortion pop culture/human events as well as pro-life pop culture/human events. I cover them from a pro-life perspective. If Cider House Rules were coming out today, I would cover it.

If you have a problem with all this, start your own abortion support blog.

Steph -

Why do you care if we say the episode was pro-life? How does this affect you? Are you that intimidated by us that you have to come on here to 'prove' we are wrong? We enjoyed the premise of a fictional show, that doesn't make us anyone's minions!

Who said we are taking this story as the gospel truth? I don't see that anywhere.

Oh, Sorry a babied survived. We wouldn't want that to happen now would we? You can't even be happy about a baby surviving, I find that sick and twisted. It was the Mother's 'choice' that the baby lives. But I guess since life was chosen and not death then her choice was wrong.

Jill,I had to take a break.It's really not necessary for me to keep on defending myself.People jumped in on me that haven't even exchanged a word of dialogue with me before.This is a pro-life blog.They want to participate.My advice to them is to be civil.Perhaps I do deliver a dig from time to time.Differences of opinion happen in every day life.If I went out and got a short haircut,5 in 20 people may say "Hey that looks great."The rest may say "Grow it out.It looks horrible." Should I begin making sarcastic and rude remarks to them because they told me what they really thought? I should think not.Same thing applies here.

Jill, there is no reason to be rude and condescending to me. I have been nothing but polite and only use slight sarcasm when I feel like I'm being attacked. I could be a lot worse. I'm not a liberal, and you have no evidence to support that assumption. But such is your black and white world. There can never be any gray area, no?

Valerie, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the show having a Pro-Life theme. I challenge you to find that anywhere in my posts. Can't find it? Glorious, another assumption from the Pro-Lifers. As you so eloquently said, "You can't even be happy about a baby surviving, I find that sick and twisted." I find it sick and twisted that an innocent child will suffer and be made into something she's not. Let her be! Intimidation is not something that scares me, so please don't congratulate yourself in any way shape or form. I am not here to argue - I'm here to educate those who have no clue about a medical procedure that I'm very familiar with. But then again, facts never set very well on this blog.

And by the way, who is getting defensive about the show here? Not me. I stated it's fiction and should be seen as such. You are the ones who are heralding it as wonderful and asking to send praises to Fox and the writers. Idol worship, anyone?

Valerie,You just made my next comment for me.Thank you. I was thinking the same thing!Can't anyone be happy that the baby survived?Odd,I haven't heard any of them say anything positive about the hand of the child either.

"My advice to them is to be civil."

Momof3, I would advise you to take your own advice. Rae only acted out of self-defense when she felt patronized. I'm pretty sure you're guilty of the same action.

As well, Jill, I would like to hear your support for "frothing" and getting worked up. You cannot see me. The internet is very ambiguous when it comes to emotions. For all you know, I could be sitting very calmly, eating a sandwich and enjoying a glass of juice while I type. Which I am.

The difference between me and, say, you, is that I do not feel I have the authority to speak for everyone's life and decisions, nor do I have the right to judge.

I get a great laugh out of it when I see pro-abortion advocates say stuff like this.

"You may believe you are God's special little helper with the gift of preaching, but I'm not quite that naive."

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Pro-lifers are so naive."

"CUTE! Are you 12?"

"you are lack the necessary intelligence and reasoning skills to form a coherent response" (I found this one especially fun because of the grammatical error within an attack on how intelligent someone is...maybe ironic is a better word).

...these couldn't possibly be judgemental comments, right? Oh no, of course not. Not from those loving pro-aborts! All you'll hear from them is loving kindness and empathizing support of everyone's point of view. :-) Of course...

Well Stephanie,I am sitting here eating a sandwich and drinking a cup of coffee.See when it comes to abortion,nobody tells me how I should feel about it.I'm not in cahoots with anybody.I have never believed that abortion was okay. This board gives me a place to express myself.I think that this board is pretty much half in half.What were we all bickering about anyway? The show is fictional[We all know this but it does happen]The picture is beautiful.We all have different views on this.The TV show could also be based on every day life.There is a large hospital down the street from me.It's a teaching hospital.It's also an excellent hospital.This hospital performed open heart surgery on a child while in the womb.The story hit the paper 1 month ago that the baby and mother are doing fine.This mother could have chosen to abort,but she didn't. *TRUCE*

Hi Bethany.Jill,If I get a copy of this article maybe you could post it.

Lemon,

My uterus, my choice not to keep a parasite inside.

And you want us to take you seriously? So we've gone from human, to human but not person, to parasite. Yikes, you guys gotta get your stories straight!

"Momof3" how many of your 3 children were you forced to have? What if someone told you while you were pregnant that you HAD to have an abortion, and that it didn't matter what you thought, that you absolutely were not allowed to carry your pregnancy to term? I bet you'd be pretty pissed off that someone was forcing you to do something you didn't want to do.

I don't know about mom, but if knew that I would be forced to have an abortion if I got pregnant, I'd make darn sure I didn't get pregnant. By abstaining. Oh, sorry, I forgot. Your vocabulary doesn't inclued the "A" word.

mk

Lemon,

Actually, I am filled with love. Love for everyone.

except of course, parasites.
mk

Is it me or is everyone on this site on meds.

It seems like every person on the pro-choice side is being treated for depression.

I don't mean to make light of this. I'm just noticing. It can't be coincidence. So what in heavens name is depressing everyone?

Mom, Bethany, Jill, HisMan, John...have any of you guys ever been treated for depression?

I haven't. Probably should have been treated for something. I'm nuttier than a fruitcake. But not depression.

What gives?
mk

Joy,

Hello, pot. Have you met kettle? I think you'll be good friends.

Sorry, I already used that one a few days ago.
I wouldn't want to have to sue you for plagarism...

mk

Lemon,

Me > Fetus.

Don't you mean ME > everyone else?
mk

MK, biologically speaking one could call a fetus a parasite, not exactly an optimistic view or a way I'd look at it, but it does technically fit the definition of a parasite.

Lemon,

The difference between me and, say, you, is that I do not feel I have the authority to speak for everyone's life and decisions, nor do I have the right to judge.

Being a Christian woman, I'm just not gonna do it.
Biting tongue, drawing blood..

Actually, I don't need to say anything. Your post pretty much says it all...
mk

My mom has depression. She has no opinion on abortion. It's genetic in my case. I didn't choose to be depressed. Have a nice day MK. :)

Stephanie,

There's nothingheroic about using an innocent infant for your political cause.

Don't you mean: There's nothing heroic about using an innocent human non-person parasite for your political cause?

I have no real grievance with you Steph...

It's just everyone here seems to use whichever term, be it fetus, human, person or parasite, will fit their argument.

I mean really, aren't we the ones who say "innocent infant".

mk

Dan,

MK, biologically speaking one could call a fetus a parasite, not exactly an optimistic view or a way I'd look at it, but it does technically fit the definition of a parasite.

Yes Dan, by definition you could use the word parasite.

But what kind of human being would want to?

MK

MK,Always good for a tickling of a funny bone.Lots and lots of depressed people here.Danielle completly dropped out of the discussion.[kind of worried for her]Lemon Head,I will not reply to your posts until you manage to get a grip.

Hey Rae,

I wasn't here for all the broohaha. So don't go gettin on my case. I was just noticing. I made it clear that I wasn't judging. It just struck me as odd. And sad.

MK

MK - Im not, nor have I ever been, on a single med besides birth control. Nor have I ever suffered from depression, but considering how many people DO suffer from depression, and how many people are pro-choice, its only logical that many people would be both. Correlation does not equal causation.

Mom - I find it very interesting that I have never directed any post directly at you, yet you continue to direct personal, insulting, and baseless attacks at me, with no provocation whatsoever. Then you complain about that behavior being directed towards you? And you speak of us getting worked up, and yet you admit needing to "take a break". We all continue to post in the face of opposing arguements. I have certainly never lost my cool. If it stresses you out so much to read opinions that differ from your own, perhaps its a bad idea to read it.

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. I may disagree with almost everything Jill says, but I have never, nor will I ever, say that she should stop writing, just because I disagree with it. I expect the same regard to be given to my beliefs. If you can't deal with that, thats your own issue - dont make it mine.

MK

I don't think the courts would take your claim very seriously. I doubt it falls under original work. I'd hire a proofreader as well; generally if you are going to sue someone for something, you should be able to spell it correctly.

And that was intended to be much more light-hearted and tongue-in-cheek than it reads. Ah, the internet and it's limited ability to convey intent.

Joy,I would venture to say that MK was merely joking.

And I was joking back with her. Obviously.

Steph -

I love a challenge:

"I challenge you to find that anywhere in my posts. " ( referring to you not saying anything is wrong with a pro-life show.)

"We just don't appreciate a fiction TV show being touted as "proof" for the Pro-Life perspective by Jill and her minions."

"anyone who takes this episode and the show as the gospel truth deserves a rubber room. "

"Anyone who takes it as the gospel truth needs a rubber room."

so.. you may not have come right out and said it, but it sure does sound like it to me.

"I find it sick and twisted that an innocent child will suffer and be made into something she's not. Let her be! "

The mother 'chose' to let the baby live. That was her decision. Why will she be made into something she is not? (wait - are we talking about the same thing - the 22 week gestation girl that just went home recently - Just thought I would check that)

And I wanted to tell fox that I appreciated the show. doesn't everyone else scream, yell, throw things when they don't like a show? How come I can't tell them that I do? Idol worship, don't think so, just saying thanks is all. Not a biggie.

I've only seen House once--and HATED it.

This girl had tuberculosis/tumor..then they decided she had meningitis...then they discovered she had rabies? What?

All of these med students carry out their own tests. The dialogue is extremely cheesy.

Maybe it's just a pet peeve but the amount of it that is unrealistic is very annoying to me.

Valerie, I think theres certainly a difference between not liking a show and not liking people trying to use a fictional piece of work and trying to twist it into proof or something of the sort

okay Amanda,here it is.Posted 3-26 under Pro Lifers Target Blacks.You wrote:My conversation with a girl who had a 6 month old(conceived at 12)last week went as follows; ME;Is it safe to say that this pregnancy was unplanned? HER;Yeah.ME:So,what are you doing to make sure it doesn't happen again? HER;I dunno. ME:You don't know? Have you used any BC since you had your son? HER;No-the lady at the church says it causes CA.ME;So are you still having sex? HER;[In a very well,DUH kinda tone) Yup.

It seems like every person on the pro-choice side is being treated for depression.

I don't mean to make light of this. I'm just noticing. It can't be coincidence. So what in heavens name is depressing everyone?

Mom, Bethany, Jill, HisMan, John...have any of you guys ever been treated for depression?

I haven't. Probably should have been treated for something. I'm nuttier than a fruitcake. But not depression.

MK I was going to ask the same question! Almost every pro-choice person on here talks about taking meds for depression! Is it just a coincidence, or possibly is there a link?

Yes, Mom, I know what I wrote.

That is a transcript from a conversation. I cut and paste that conversation directly from my write-up about the patients I saw that day. Im required to keep a record of conversations I have with patients, recording the age of the patient and her situation, but not her name or specific location.

How is posting a transcript of a conversation I had with a patient "mocking"?

How is posting a transcript of a conversation "implying" that I think she is "stupid"? There are no opinions or editorial in that transcript. Just facts. Again, if facts and freedom of speech bother you, thats your issue - not mine.

I'm not on meds for depression...but an inherited condition. Get your stories straight :P

Well,the DUH is what really did it for me.I have had conversations with mentally ill patients.One man told me he owned Russia.I wouldn't tell you every detail of my conversations with mentally retarded patients.This girl was obviously in need of some educating.You did remark that her mother had thrown her out.She probably didn't have a support system at all.Also,she was very young.I guess what I'm trying to say is I hope you showed her a little compassion.I can understand your frustration too,however this girl could straighten up and raise her baby well.Some really young mothers have turned out to be some of the best.I try never to underestimate them.

I'm not on meds for depression...but an inherited condition. Get your stories straight :P

Um, Rae....you wrote yourself:

"My mom has depression. She has no opinion on abortion. It's genetic in my case. I didn't choose to be depressed. Have a nice day MK. :)"

Sounds like you said it yourself that you are being treated for depression. Why are you now saying you're not? The fact that it's "inherited" doesn't make it any less of a depression, does it?

Helllooo? I'm pro-choice and I don't have clinical depression (not that there's anything wrong with people who have it...it's a recognized and proven illness and people who have it deserve respect and all the love and treatment that we can give). Making a blanket statement and correlating depression to being pro-choice is faulty and, as anyone can see, it is grasping at straws. Pro-choicers aren't a depressed people unless you start trampling on women's rights.

Bethany, there's a difference between having depression and being treated for it.

haha that totally wasn't supposed you happen twice, sorry

"Um, Rae....you wrote yourself:"

Babe, this is me, Kate.

My inherited condition is epilepsy. Drugs make those demons go away..

I'm actually a very happy pro-choicer. :P

Joy,

Dang. I'm usually so good about checking my spelling, but between coloring easter eggs, going to the childrens stations of the cross, making easter baskets and getting ready to go away for the weekend, alas, I grew careless.

But I did use that one a couple of days ago.

I'm so happy to meet another pro-choicer that has a sense of humor.

Do you take meds?

Sorry, that was not nice. But it is interesting.
mk

"I'm not on meds for depression...but an inherited condition. Get your stories straight :P"

Um, Bethany...look a little closer at the signature, ti says, "prettyinpink"...not "Rae".

I didn't write that.

But I can argue that depression is an inherited condition anyway. It kind of sucks being 4 years old and depressed. Ask my mom, she could tell you all the wonderful stories about me and my depression. :)

And though we may not agree on the abortion issue, I think we can all agree that Hugh Laurie is awesome, can we not?

*trying to inject some light-heartedness*

Mom - you obviously didnt read what I wrote very carefully before you jumped to conclusions about it and started insulting me.

I said that she said "yup" in a "well DUH" type of TONE, not that she or I ever used that word. Meaning - she answered the question as though the answer would be obvious, as though she thought it was very silly for me to even ask if she was still having sex.

I accept your apology.

Okay, Okay,

I didn't mean anything. Really. My son has bi-polar. It's nothing to laugh at.

It's just that last week Danielle and a couple of other people started swapping "depression" stories.

Don't you remember that night? The one where everyone was discussing the best ways to kill themselves.

And then today someone said they too were on meds for depression.

I'm not judging anybody. Lord knows I've been through the horrors of hospitalizations and mis-diagnosis, and addiction and...with my son.

I would NEVER make fun of you guys. There but for the grace of God go I.

I thought you knew me better.

But it makes it hard sometimes to discern where the anger is coming from. Two nights ago Danielle admitted to cutting herself because of this site.

So you want to go back and forth, teasing, and being sarcastic and then somewhere it takes a deadly turn and it's kind of disconcerting.

I suggested to Danielle that we use a code phrase = soft music = to signal that things are getting too heated and too personal. Maybe we could all do that.

I certainly don't want anyone here going away with long term bad feelings.

It misses the point of conversation.

So let's all have that sandwich and cup of tea and try again.

Okay?

mk

The other thing that happens is JK gets on here and really starts swingin'. Hittin' below the belt and purposely antagonizing everyone.

She(he) sets a tone that puts everyone on edge and before you know it we don't even know who said what and we're all accusing each of stuff that we didn't say...

So, my suggestion is, pro-lifers, don't take JK on. It's not worth it. And remember to check the names of who wrote what. Pro-choicers, when JK is on, take it easy on the sarcasm cuz it all gets jumbled together.

Same goes for anybody that you can just tell is itchin' for a fight. Ignore them.

Will that work?

MK

Another pro-choice girly without depression. I have PMDD and am on birth control pills to treat it, but no depression for me. I don't really think depression and being pro-choice correlates: and even if it did, correlation does not equal causation.

Um, Bethany...look a little closer at the signature, ti says, "prettyinpink"...not "Rae".

I didn't write that.

Ok I'm sorry...I stand corrected. I get you girls confused sometimes. :)

Also, I want to add that this topic got very heated and I was being very defensive when I wrote that. I shouldn't have gone there. I just got so ticked off by some of the responses to Momof3. I felt she was totally being ganged up on without cause.
But anyway, that said, I am sorry to have gone there about depression.

Bethany, it's cool.

Side conversation: anybody here live in new york city?

MK

The only meds I'm taking are some Tylenol for the back pain. =) Pregnancy is hard on my back.

PrettyInPink

Im all over NYC. I live in Queens, work in Brooklyn. One internship in Jersey, and one in Manhattan and Harlem.

Weather's lovely today, isnt it? heh..

I don't live there Amanda but I'm visiting next month!!

I'm really excited--we have confirmed tickets to Daily Show, Colbert Report, Conan O'Brien, and Chicago with Bebe Neuwirth!!
We are also trying to get tickets to Curtains.

I was wondering, what are some stuff we should do while we are there?

The weather here was really hot for a while but now its really cold. Screw midwest weather.

PrettyInPink:

Where in the midwest are you? It decided to snow in Minnesota last night. I am quite disheartened...it was like 80 last week and now it's snowing and barely above 20 degrees.

And I am heinously jealous that you get to go see the Colbert Report AND The Daily Show.

AGH! You get to see Colbert! AND John Stewart. You make me so jealous. *scowl at YOU!*

(I'm kidding, I promise. Have fun!)

First of all, thanks Bethany.Second,MK who is JK?

"It seems like every person on the pro-choice side is being treated for depression.

I don't mean to make light of this. I'm just noticing. It can't be coincidence. So what in heavens name is depressing everyone?"

MK, as someone who is studying and preparing to enter the Psychological community, I take offense at how easily you sling a life-changing mental disorder around. It is not an insult. Your casualty in using the "You're all being treated for depression" line is equal to someone saying "That's retarded".

Just because a few people are on medication to help them live life a little easier does not mean the entire community is depressed. Use the brain that God gave you and think before you speak next time.

Thanks Less and Rae :) I'm VERY excited, you have no idea! I never miss TDS and TCR, I watch them every night.

I'm from Oklahoma but I go to school here in St. Louis. It was in the 80s only 2 days ago and today it was like 33 degrees.

I had this great dream last night that Jon Stewart and I got tattoos together. Ha!

*Brag*
I got to go to Knox college last summer, where a friend of mine goes... to see Colbert speak! (And live it up in Galesburg, I guess :P)

He walked by us before it started, I could have touched him! He was telling this guy how excited he was.

It was awesome, but now we have a chance to meet him. I might just die.

Pro-choice, not depressed.

I'm fine with House having a pro-life (or whatever) episode. It's fiction after all. I understand that the authors probably do it to boost ratings for the TV show, and may not necessarily be realistic.

Question, Jill. How do you know that the fetus (the real one, not the House one) was under anesthetized opposed to under anesthetic?

Hahaha, that's the best dream ever. All I ever get are dreams about my fiance (male) getting pregnant. How does that work!? What is MY subconcious trying to tell me!?

But yup, I'm with you. Never miss TDS or TCR: everyone knows not to call me from 10-11, because I simply won't answer.

PrettyInPink:

Take lots of pictures...if they let you.

I'd give my left ovary to meet Stephen Colbert. For one thing, it's awesome because then I'd get to meet him (and ask him how the bears are doing) and I'd possibly get fewer periods due to one less ovary (also a lower chance of getting ovarian cancer...which is a double-plus good).

"The mother 'chose' to let the baby live. That was her decision. Why will she be made into something she is not? (wait - are we talking about the same thing - the 22 week gestation girl that just went home recently - Just thought I would check that)"

Valerie, that's what I was referring to. I never said I wanted her to die, that was your wonderful assumption about my statement. I just find it disgusting that the Pro-Life movement is touting her as their poster child. I want her to be able to live her life in peace without anyone bugging her. She will have a hard enough life with the developmental problems she's going to have.

As well, I never said the House episode was Pro-life. I never said it was Pro-choice. It was both. It just seems like most of the people who are Pro-Life and commenting on this blog entry are saying that it's "proof" of their movement and that things like this really happen. They don't. I don't care what you say, that posted picture is not real. I would rather take a surgeon's word over a photographer's any day.


MK, when talking about the "innocent infant", I was referring to the child who was born at 20 weeks and is being touted as the Pro-life poster child. Like I said above, I think it's sick to use an innocent child (she's a child because she's been BORN) to further your political means.

PrettyInPink

My bf and I went to see Conan last year, it was SO much fun. We keep meaning to go see Colbert and/or the Daily Show, but we keep putting it off, which is easy to do when we live here.

You can almost always get Day-of-show tickets to any of the Broadway or off Broadway shows. Just stop by the box office in the morning.

I also suggest walking around a lot before you pick a place to eat. I always think its so silly to see visitors go in to an Applebees or Olive Garden when there are so many one-of-a-kind, unique places to eat in the city.

If the weather is good, its worth it to go to Battery Park and do the Statue of Liberty/Ellis Island tour.

For shopping, check out Union Square (downtown) and 5th Avenue (midtown). And of course, walk around Central Park. The zoo in Central Park is pretty fun too.

Rae, you wouldn't miss it. Trust me. I had one of mine removed due to cancer, and I don't miss it at all. :o) I actually know a woman who had four kids on only 1/2 of an ovary.

Oh, I see. The site you posted actually confirms Snopes. The "truth or fiction" one was says that the picture was not faked (true).

Momof3,
I am JK, and I am not a troll as MK paints me to be. I simply have differing views that I exercise my constitutional right to express. I do not do it in a nasty or condescending way. Oh, and I am also a pro choicer who does not suffer from depression.

Please, there just seems to be an excess of sarcasm, rudeness, and hurtful comments on this thread. We can conduct ourselves as mature adults, express different viewpoints, and agree to disagree in a civilized manner. In reference to the mental illness of depression, keep in mind mental illness is painful and difficult enough for an individual and their family. Its torn my heart out to see my daughter so devastated by her familial form of mental illness and to listen to people with their hurtful comments and opinions. Whether any person on this blog is suffering from any illness, mental or physical, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
About the picture of the doctor holding the hand of the unborn. To me this represents the bond we share as humans. Whether the unborn baby is squeezing the finger makes no difference. Is the bond any less when the hand of an unresponsive person is held by a loved one? Wouldn't we all agree this is a human hand? It doesn't look like a paw or fin to me.

Oh my goodness. People calling a baby in your womb a parasite! Um, did YOUR mom feel that way young ladies? Apparently not because you are here and able to voice your opinions! And because I'm sure I'll offend you with the number of my children(oh-I had a miscarriage of a very much wanted child between #1 and #2 which gave me five-count em 5 pregnancies), all 4 were very much wanted and loved. Maybe the 4th wasn't exactly planned but we love him very very much. Oh to be young and idealist again. At least I know I was more realistic at your age.

RE: House last night. I can't believe I missed that! I look forward to the rerun. Most of what they do on that show is unrealistic medically, but hey, can't we be allowed to see that House has a human side? And who are you to judge that strange things happen in medicine?

Our moms made a CHOICE to go through pregnancy, something we respect and cherish just as any other right that they have to their individual reproductive healths.

Congratulations that all of your children were wanted. The point is, not all pregnancies are wanted, and it is barbaric to force a woman to endure one if she doesn't want to. But we want a woman to know that she is also fully supported to carry a pregnancy to term. That's the beauty of choice.

My mom had 4 miscarriages before I was born and nearly died after giving birth to me, her 5th pregnancy. She also had two more children (and probably more miscarriages in between).

My mom beats you in the number of pregnancies. Snap.

And we are more realistic than you'll ever be. Oh wait...that's right, Jill said I'm a "pessimist's pessimist"...whatever that means.

Why would we be offended by the number of children you've had momof4?

Where does the idea that pro-choicers hate babies come from? I LOVE babies, I just their mother to want to love them.

If all your children are loved that's great, and not something any pro-choicer would be offended by. You have the wrong idea about us. Instead I would imagine some of us would be offended by the condescending tone of your post and the implications about our supposed naivety. We would be offended if we weren't already used to hearing about it on this blog.

My mom is pro-choice, and believe it or not, I value her personal freedoms as a woman more than my life as a fetus...If I had been aborted, I never would have known. I love and respect my mother's life and rights more than I would have valued myself as an unfeeling fetus. That's just how I feel.

Wow, I am sorry you value your life so little, Alyssa.

I think your life is probably worth much more than you realize.

I'm sure if your mother had killed you as an infant, you'd never have known it either. Does that make it excusable?

"I'm sure if your mother had killed you as an infant, you'd never have known it either. Does that make it excusable?"

What does this have to do with anything?

You misunderstood me...I said that my life doesn't usurp my mother's rights...If I, as an embryo, had taken forcible control of her uterus without her permission, she was well within her right to deny me that right. I do value myself, I just don't believe that I have a right to use another human being's body for my benefit.

I didn't mean to restir up a hornet's nest. After I posted my comments I did more thinking. Yes we are all entitled to our opinions. I did not mean for anyone to think that pro choice people hate babies. However, sometimes that is the way pro choice people SEEM to come across-that we as pro lifers are (for lack of a better word) stupid for bearing children. That is NOT meant to be derogatory to anyone. I get frustrated when both sides of the issue get all worked up like what I've read, as if there are totally black and white sides. Nothing in this life seems to me, anyway, to be totally always completely black and white. I guess I thought I'd offend someone with my 5 pregnancies based on the feelings I felt while reading some of the postings and I apologize for being so presumptive. Ew-big word. Anyway, I also just wanted to ask this as a really stupid question on my part. For those who really honestly never ever want children, what do you do for birth control? Do you choose permanent forms? I am truly just wondering, not being sarcastic.

Actually, OB/GYNs are very unlikely to perform permanent birth-control procedures on young women due to the fact that they might change their minds in the future.

As far as I know, people often use the Pill and then condoms with spermicide or IUDs with condoms and spermicide.

I'm on the pill, but not for preventing pregnancy. And I would love to get a hysterectomy someday...not because of not wanting to get pregnant, but to avoid uterine cancer and get rid of my hellacious periods.

momof4, I am truly impressed by you. If what you have said about yourself and your beliefs is true, I believe you to be one of, if not the only rational, open-minded pro-lifer on this blog. And it's very refreshing, because I believe that while we may disagree, the only way we can have constructive dialogue is if we respect each other's differences of opinions and be reseptive and open to discussion and ideas.

Many pro-lifers would like everyone to believe that pro-choicers hate babies. Jill said it herself when she said "I can't imagine they have easy times attending baby showers or feeling a baby kick through a friend's abdomen". Why would that be true? There is not a single person I know that hates babies and wants to kill them all, pro-choicers and pro-lifers alike, I know many people on both sides.

Thank you momof4 for reconsidering. We all get upset sometimes

I had a hysterectomy about 6 years ago--due to horrendous periods... had a period for over a year by the time I had that surgery. Wasn't planning on using my uterus anymore anyway! Four was definitely enough. Thanks for the info. I didn't think OB/GYN would do that for young women. I couldnt have my tubes tied after #3 because I wasn't 150% sure we were done having children. My indecision was partly due to secondary infertility after #1.... if that makes any sense. Rae-you work in a Planned Parenthood type facility? Or someone on this board does?

Stephanie,

If you read my post you know that I went out of my way to say that I was not in any way making fun of or making light of depression or any other disorder.

I was curious because so many girls had said that they were on meds for depression.

I wasn't making a correlation. I wasn't making any assumptions. I think I said no less than three times that I was simply making an observation.

I even asked if anyone on our side was suffering from depression because I couldn't remember who was.

I didn't mean anything. Really. My son has bi-polar. It's nothing to laugh at.

It's just that last week Danielle and a couple of other people started swapping "depression" stories.

Don't you remember that night? The one where everyone was discussing the best ways to kill themselves.

And then today someone said they too were on meds for depression.

I'm not judging anybody. Lord knows I've been through the horrors of hospitalizations and mis-diagnosis, and addiction and...with my son.

I would NEVER make fun of you guys. There but for the grace of God go I.

I thought you knew me better.

But it makes it hard sometimes to discern where the anger is coming from. Two nights ago Danielle admitted to cutting herself because of this site.

So you want to go back and forth, teasing, and being sarcastic and then somewhere it takes a deadly turn and it's kind of disconcerting.

I suggested to Danielle that we use a code phrase = soft music = to signal that things are getting too heated and too personal. Maybe we could all do that.

I certainly don't want anyone here going away with long term bad feelings.

Where exactly do I treat this disorder disrespectfully...

mk

Alyssa,

You did as an embryo take "forcible" control of your mother's uterus, though she would not have known this for several weeks.
About using another human's body for your benefit, don't you think that as an infant you placed great demands on your mother's body, both physically and mentally, and continued to do so into childhood? I can tell you as the mother of 3 children that you did! You totally depended on her for your survival. As an infant and toddler you were totally demanding, selfish, and completely oblivious to your mother's own needs. You didn't love or care about her, you only wanted your needs met, period. Don't assume you were a perpetual joy in her life, she may have wished many times to be free of you.
Yet, aren't you thankful your mother made the choice to give you life despite the work and demands it meant for her? You sound like an intelligent young woman from your posts and I personally think it would have been a great loss if your mother had made the choice not to have you.

JK,

The other thing that happens is JK gets on here and really starts swingin'. Hittin' below the belt and purposely antagonizing everyone.

She(he) sets a tone that puts everyone on edge and before you know it we don't even know who said what and we're all accusing each of stuff that we didn't say...

So, my suggestion is, pro-lifers, don't take JK on. It's not worth it. And remember to check the names of who wrote what. Pro-choicers, when JK is on, take it easy on the sarcasm cuz it all gets jumbled together.

Same goes for anybody that you can just tell is itchin' for a fight. Ignore them.

Will that work?

MK

Sorry, I meant Lemon. It's just that the two of you sound exactly alike. I get you confused.

MK

Oooh, your signature changed...

momof4: No, I do not work at a Planned Parenthood facility or anything like that, though I do know of some people who have interned at Planned Parenthood. I am a pre-med student and I do a lot of research on things like birth control and reproductive problems mostly due to the problems I am having as well as general interest.

But just to answer future questions that may be asked: No, I'm not going to be an OB/GYN. No, I will not be performing abortions. I plan to go either into general practice, pediatrics (specializing in adolescents, in particular adolescent females as they tend to have really CRAP doctors...I would know), or internal medicine (this is the one I'm leaning towards).

Oh ya,Lemon head.I started to ignore him/her much earlier in the morning.Total button pusher!

Rae,I am still mom of3.There is another poster going under mom of 4.I assure you we are NOT the same person.Now pay attention!

Again, my mother made the choice to keep me AFTER pregnancy as well, and didn't put me into an adoption system (not that she would've needed to, being in a marriage already for ten years before getting pregnant with me). She CHOSE to raise me. Again, we, and all pro-choicers, respect and love the right of women to become mothers and raise children when and if they want. She chose again to sacrifice to raise me. The big difference is that I no longer actually lived in and controlled her body. No one, not even a fetus with half of your genetic material, even if it IS a person, has a right to control and use your body for its benefit without your consent.

And it's not a loss if I never was born in the first place...my mother's bodily rights supercede my rights to use her, remember? The only thing that I could think of as a loss if I was aborted was the fact that I wouldn't be here fighting for women's reproductive rights today.

momof3

I'm sorry, I didn't catch that earlier. My apologies.

Mom of 4,I believe it's Amanda you want.Rae,no problem.

Rae: My signature changed? Is that good or bad? Good luck with med school. I was only asking about where you worked because I was nosy! As another thought on child #4 in our house. During routine prenatal testing, my AFP came back elevated ( I was an older mom-35 at the time). We were fully prepared for him/her having spina bifida but never once did we consider terminating the pregnancy. Wasn't even a question for us. That kid is one of a kind now. Has the driest sense of humor for an 11-yr-old.

I do also have to agree with Mary's comments to Alyssa. Funny, but I never pictured an embryo 'forcibly' taking over a woman's body. Alyssa, your Mom did do a good job in raising you-she allowed you to grow and develop both physically and emotionally, to make your own opinions. Raising children is extremely difficult and never stops, no matter how old they are! Not everyone is cut out to be a parent.

To MOM OF 3: I'm sorry. I used the name I have on another site and I truly apologize for goofing everybody up. I'm being bad and posting here while transcribing....

No mom of 4-Carry on!I am on my third pregnancy at the moment.It was just something that I thought up on the spur of the moment.

Momof4: Eh, no problem. I currently work as what I call a "lab biatch" or "lab minion" in a microbiology lab on the university campus I attend. I have a long way to go. ^_^

I have an 11 year old brother and he's a little nutter. I feel so bad for my mom though, trying to push him out (he was 10lbs4oz and nearly 2 feet long at birth). I have the dry humor in my family, I recommend your son watch Monty Python and Eddie Izzard (well...Monty Python now, Eddie Izzard when he gets older) as they may have the humor that's right up his alley. Anywho, my little bro's got the goofy humor (like he'll touch his head and make a sizzling noise and say, "I'm dead sexay" or something like that...it cracks my mom up).

Anywho. :D

momof4

Im only 24, but I plan on having 2 children of my own and adopting atleast 1 from an orphanage in Tanzania - where I was in December doing aid work. If I were to get pregnant at this point, I wouldnt even consider having an abortion, but I do not believe I (or anyone) has the right to make that decision for women other than myself - which is why I am pro choice.

During the fall semester, I did one of my internships for the patient education department of Planned Parenthood. My internship this semester is with the patient education wing of a major NYC hospital, which recieves funding to provide prenatal education and sex education at various locations throughout the city - including a couple of schools for pregnant teens.

Amanda: Thanks for the info. What are you going to school for? And I wish you the best. I guess my feathers got ruffled when you used the terms you did.

Regarding my 11 yr old son. He sometimes sounds like a 70 yr old man in a little body. He'll answer the phone very properly, etc etc. And he'll be funny without even knowing it, then wonder why we are laughing.

Thank you all for your feedback, information, etc. I'll be back to visit this site again in the future to be obnoxious in my opinions I'm sure. I need to stay focused and get my work done for tonight.

Nice to meet you all.

Believe me Alyssa, as an infant you controlled your mother's life, body, and emotions. Please keep in mind also that every planned and wanted pregnancy does not result in a child that will be loved and well cared for. I have seen many a new mother who had planned and wanted babies under the best of circumstances, exhausted and in tears. No matter how much she planned and wanted her baby, she was realizing the fact that motherhood was not what she fantasized, and yes Alyssa, that included me!
Whatever the circumstances, it does not change the facts concerning the care of infants. Also the older children become the more difficult and demanding they become as well. Ever hear of terrible twos? Believe me, they're well-named.
Whether or not you would consider yourself any loss, aren't you thankful to be alive? Would you have chosen not to live?

Again, my mother made a choice to raise me...and I know I wasn't an easy child to raise...I was always getting hurt, constantly in casts and who knows what else. But the thing is, my mom chose to go through it all. No one forced her to mother me. But she did of her own free will, which makes choice so beautiful. When I have a child, I will choose to give my body over and allow myself to be another being's life-giver, and I will raise my child to be an independent thinker and someone who wouldn't want to use the body of another against his/her will.

And to answer your question: yes, I have led a generally happy life. I'm glad I'm here. But I wouldn't have missed it if I never had it. I would have chosen not to live if it was my mother's decision to not surrender her body to my embryo self. I have no right to use her body for my own good, even for my own survival. I love my mother too much to be that selfish. I would NEVER say to my mother, "I am glad you didn't abort me because I deserved to take over your body systems, because it's my right to own your body for 9 months and use it for my own survival. It was my right to make you go through hell to birth me (which she did, her whole pregnancy with me was hell), and it was my right that I put you through such horrendous labor (my mom went through such a hard and debilitating labor with me...it took forever)."

I love my mother's rights. I respect and care for her too much to ever believe I had a "RIGHT" to take them away from her. She willingly made the choice, and I would have respected her either way.

Mary: I was not a terrible two...in fact I was relatively well behaved for a two-year old. :-p

I didn't turn into a raving brat till age 4-5.

"Danielle completly dropped out of the discussion.[kind of worried for her]"

Sorry I worried you. School work has kept me shackled in the study lounge and library.

When did CHOICE become more important than the inalienable right to life itself? How could a mere choice possibly be more sacred? Doesn't it matter what the choices are? Is it OK for a man to CHOOSE rape because his CHOICE is all that matters? Is it OK to choose to steal because choice is all that matters? Why would it be OK to kill the unique human being with half of your chromosomes in your womb just because you choose it? A human life is of value whether or not it is wanted at the moment. Pro-choicers are using subjective, not objective criteria for valuing life.

Danielle, Amanda: This is a pro-life blog. Unless you produce proof, your wild assertions about pro-lifers will be deleted.

Yay for censorship!

Here is the picture Jill - since only you will know what this is in regards to since you deleted my previous post even though it contained nothing vulgar or offensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Newborn_umbilical_suction.jpg

They simply cropped the hands out and the blanket behind it - so its pretty easy to see how it could be taken out of context with all of the blood and the head at a bad angle.

The pamphlet said "Partial Birth Abortion: Does this look a choice to you?"

You know very well that PP doesn't perform abortions after 24 weeks, and you know I cant magically send a pamplhet through the internet. So requiring "proof" is just a ridiculous excuse for you to delete my comments, but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Thanks for the link, Amanda. Now I can say your assertion is wrong. One doesn't put a cord clamp on an aborted baby or show a mother's hand with a pulse ox on her finger holding the baby's leg. There are plenty of photos of aborted babies without having to resort to one so obviously false.

Sorry, I didn't take pictures of the rally, but I have no need for that in my photo collection.

okay - I know that whole, I'm depressed and on meds discussion is over and I'm a bit late. But I just have to say something.

I am pro-life and I am on meds, baby!

Lets see...

Adderall - for AD/HD - I
Welbutrin - Clinical depression from said AD/HD - I
Effexor - see above for welbutrin
Trazadone - sleeping aid if needed.

I just want to know if any of your pro-choicers can beat that!!!! HA!!!

Why, you may ask am I actually telling you all this? Because, there is a stigma on people who takes meds which is why MK's comment upset everyone. (MK - your explaination on why you said it was beautiful and no hard feelings) If everyone just proudly annouces that they need meds to live, then no one would care! And if kids are making fun of your kid because of emotional problems, tell them to do what my Dad told me to do. Look them straight in the eye, smile, and tell them to have a nice day. Made me feel better, and hushed them up!

I'm on Lexapro 20mg for depression... But I've hit a slump more recently and have to go back to the doctor's so that might be changing. :(

Thanks Valerie.

I have a question for you, does the Effexor give you really nasty side-effects when you forget to take it for a few days? I'm on Effexor and it gives me really bad withdrawal when I forget it.

I'm also wondering if you've heard of whether Effexor causes psoriasis, because I didn't get psoriasis until I started my medication and my dad says he's heard that that coudl be the case.

Sorry if these questions were too weird or whatever. :)

What was the pic for?

Ok I'll try again. Hooray for censorship.

The pulse oximeter and clamp, along with the entire background, as I already said, were cropped out. It was simply the baby, covered in blood - with the head at a very bad angle.

Rae,
I was a horrific 3 year old myself and I heard about it for years. My mother's favorite story is about visiting my aunt and uncle in S.Dakota where I was naturally on my worst behavior. My uncle could always shut me up with a huge rubber clown thumb, which just terrified me. I still remember that blasted thing. Anyway, my mother begged him for that thumb when we left, and he let her take it. She said she would have given him gold for it.

Alyssa,

Thank you for answering my question. I'm not surprised you are grateful to be alive. I'm sure your mother would make the choice again to have and raise you as she must certainly be aware of her blessing in having you as her daughter. But I'm afraid you did in fact use your mother's body for your own good and your own survival. Like all infants and toddlers you were selfish, demanding, and concerned yourself only with your own needs. You never cared if your mother was exhausted, sick, frustrated, or just needed some time and space to herself. You and your needs came first. If not your mother, you would have depended on another human being for your survival.
My first pregnancy and labor were also very difficult. Many times after the birth of my first I would ponder on how much easier pregnancy was! This was the child I mentioned in a previous post who later developed mental illness. We simply have no way of knowing or controlling what life holds, no matter how well we plan or how much we want something.

That was a live birth right? I was trying to figure out why it was posted.

Amanda, the problem for you is this isn't a verbal conversation, It's written. So I can go back and find that you originally said, "They simply cropped the hands out and the blanket behind it."

So your story is changing, Amanda. If now you add they also cut the baby's leg off being held by a mom's hand with a pulse ox on her finger, and the cord clamp, which was on the baby's navel, there wouldn't be much left.

Mom, she asserted pro-lifers used a photo of a just delivered baby at a bad angle to lie and say it was a pba. I told her to prove it. She linked to a photo. And now we see her original assertion was in error.

Okay,thank you Jill.

No Jill, my story isnt changing, you're deleting my posts. Big difference.

I told you the first time that they cropped out the HANDS and the blanket. The HANDS meaning - the nurses hands, with the pulse ox on her finger, and the other hand, holding the umbilical cord clamp- and the blanket behind it (ie - the background)

if the only way you can make yourself feel right about this is by deleting my posts, it only goes to show your deep insecurity regarding this issue. If you were so sure you were right, why would feel the need to delete anything I say about it?

I was at the march for life this January.I saw pictures that were sick,sick,sick.Trust me,these were real as real could be.Mangled little babies.Legs gone,arms and heads gone.God's beautiful work tattered and discarded.

Amanda, I understand which hands. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

Valerie, Danielle, and Rae

Have those of you discussing depression and ADHD drugs considered alternative medicine? Try taking Omega 3 fish oil capsules. Make certain to get them at a health food store and consult a clerk as to the best quality. Fish oil has been shown to have anti depressant and mood altering effects without the health risks. Fish oil is in fact very healthful. A health store clerk could be very helpful in advising you on alternative treatments. Most important, NEVER suddenly stop your prescribed medications. Discontinue or cut down only under your doctor's supervision.

I was at the march for life this January.I saw pictures that were sick,sick,sick.Trust me,these were real as real could be.Mangled little babies.Legs gone,arms and heads gone.God's beautiful work tattered and discarded.

I remember seeing those pictures and showing them to a pro-abortion person a few years ago. I remember them telling me the pictures were fake..that a baby only looked like a blob at that stage. She told me I was an idiot to believe such "obviously faked" pictures. That they didn't have those little arms and legs or fingers and toes. That it was just staged photos....people like that say anything to deny the truth!

After having my miscarriage several weeks ago, and seeing that "blob" with my own eyes, I knew there was no one that could ever convince me that I was wrong again. Those little eyes, fingers, toes, tongue, ears, and little tummy were all too real. I have no doubt that all those aborted baby pictures are true, especially after seeing my own real baby.

Thanks Mary, but I have genetic depression, it's a genetic hormone imbalance in my brain, it's not because I'm just a li'l blue and I have talked to my shrink about alternative methods of medication, and I am currently trying light-therapy (I have a full spectrum lamp) to help with the season changes. :)

And I have heard the fish oil thing, but the big disadvantage to fish oil is that you reek when you take it.

Rae,

You're very welcome but the capsules won't make you smell fishy. I use cod liver oil which I take as an oral liquid with no odor problem, and it doesn't get any fishier than that! Anyway, it can't hurt to try and there are excellent health benefits even if it makes no difference with your depression. Good luck with the light therapy. I've heard that can be very effective.

Mary,

I tried the Omega 3 fish oil capsules before I went on my meds because of an article I found in a magazine. Didn't help any.

And I hear you about the not coming off them suddenly. The pharmacy near my college wasn't open when I need my pills refilled and I ended up being off them for two days. That was nasty. Today's the first day I've felt bad to normal.

Danielle:

Do your pills make you go through withdrawal when you aren't on them? Once I was off mine for two weeks because my dad has to get them via mail-order and I didn't realize it took so long to get them so I ended up not taking them for two weeks...it was awful. I was constantly dizzy and nauseous and I had no appetite and my head just felt stuffy. It was probably one of the worst feelings I've had.

Arrrrrrrrrgh.

Rae -

The only thing effexor does to me is give me hot flashes, which is better than not being able to get off the couch! When I forget to take it, it does make me a bit wiggy, but then if I forget that one I also forget the welbutrin and adderall so I'm not sure which one it really is. I've never heard of anything with it and psoriasis, have you called your pharmacists? They should know, or have access to all the side effect info. Don't worry about asking any questions, I am very open about this. Mine is genetic too so I will be on meds my whole life. They are planning on taking me off the effexor in the next couple months. They put me on it after my daughter was born to avoid post-partum depression which I had after my son was born. What is a full spectrum lamp?

Danielle - How long have you been on the lexapro? Sometimes you can have swings of depression in the 1st 6 months of taking some antidepressants. (I'm not sure if lexapro is one of them or not) Do you have a support system/group for yourself? This is very important to treating depression.

Mary - I saw a naturopathologist (sp?) several years ago and tried a lot of the herbal treatments, acupuncture and mesage therapy. Nothing really worked but I still go for the mesages! I can take valarian root with some chamomile tea instead of the trazadone if I'm not too anxious about insomnia which I prefer to do instead of the trazadone, but with 2 kids I have to get sleep. One of the biggest problems with AD/HD is that you cannot stop your brain even when trying to fall asleep, it is very annoying!

And yes, my husband is a saint for putting up with all of this. God bless him! Considering everytime I was pregnant I was off all of my meds! AAHHH!!!

Valerie: Effexor works so well for me, I mean it keeps me neutral and I hate to stop taking it, but I'm going to do a little more checking around to see if it does cause psoriasis (I have looked at side-effects and I haven't seen anything about it, but I'll keep looking) and I sooooo don't want to stop taking it. :(

My mom was off all her meds when she had my littlest brother...those were NOT a pleasant 9 months I'll tell you what. :-p

Full spectrum lamps are lamps that have lower UV wavelengths as well as visible lights to give you some UV light which helps Vitamin D production which apparently helps your mood. I dunno if it works, but I try to use the lamp a lot during the winter, just leaving it on and what not.

And it SUCKS to try to sleep when your brain refuses to shut up. Mine does that and I do have a prescription for trazadone but my parents wouldn't let me fill the prescription...they just say, "Get some exercise!"

Valerie: I saw you mentioned teas as a way to get to sleep. Chamomile is absolutely great for it; I used to do that all the time. I have to recommend a tea specifically for falling asleep: it's called Sleepytime, and you can get it specifically with valarian root. It's wonderful! I recommend it for anyone. It's so nice to know I'm not the only one who uses tea for everything possible!

If there's a Bath and Body or Body Shop around you, there are also various pillows/stuffed animals filled with lavender and flax seed. Generally you microwave them for a few seconds. The smell of lavander combined with that tea absolutely knocks me out within a few seconds.

Guys,
I use Omega-3 fish oil to supplement my medicaiton.
I'd recommend Coreomega--the orange chocolate kind. It's flavored so even if you burp a little all you taste is orange. You can just squeeze it into your mouth or dissolve in yogurt. It's really great.

Thanks for the advice for NYC, yall. Any restaurant recommendations? We'll probably be pretty much all over Manhattan.

Rae - I do not that effexor works differently on everyone. It is one of the ones that work really well, but some people just can't stay on it for long. There are so many different ones out there. I had to try about 5 different ones before I found the right combo. The genetic imbalances are hard to control. Are you getting your meds from a reg. Dr or a psychiatrist? The psychiatrist knows so much more than the Dr's and can usually find the right dosage faster. At least that has been my experience. Speaking of shrinks, I'll have to talk to her about one of those lamps.
Trazadone is a very powerful drug and can be very addictive. I don't recommend it be taken lightly. If memory serves it is really an antipsychotic but the side effect is a good nights sleep so it is perscribed for the side effect for me. Have you tried teas?

Speaking of teas, ;-)

Less - I completely forgot about Sleepytime! Thank you for reminding me! I have tried the pillows but I have alot of allergies. Yes, I'm a medical nightmare!

Valerie,

I've been on it for a little over a year now. The first month of being on the meds was horrible. I was a complete ogre. I'm very glad that I'm pass that stage now and I definitely don't want to start over again on a new medication, but I suppose I'll have no choice if this one stops working.

My support system is slowly growing, but my biggest supporter has been my boyfriend. He's the one who took me to get help in the first place and he's stuck by me ever since. Even in my darkest moments.

As I started dealing with depression and my social anxiety, I started opening up more and talking more about my depression, trying to help others get the help that they need. I know that I had a huge issue with getting help because there's still this stigma against mental illnesses and wellness. Through talking about it, I've found A LOT of other people in the same boat as me. Some have it rougher and some have it easier, but it's always helpful to talk to them and know that you aren't the only one going through a situation.

Valerie: Ah, gotcha. I feel your pain: I'm severely allergic to peanuts, pine trees, shellfish...I have an epi-pen with me at all times. I also have severe asthma and PMDD. I think you win, though. I can't imagine having all that and still dealing with kids. You're MUCH more patient than I am!

Hey guys,

Let's not get incredibly worked up over this epi of House. It was a good epi. Yes, it is not medically sound. Yes, there is no way the baby could have lived through that defibrillator. In real life. But the episode had a nice message, it was just a nice story. Personally I enjoyed it.

I guess this is a little old, lol. But I just wanted to say such. I mean, I'm sure that everyone in here would be happy if the baby were to survive, right? It doesn't matter if you're pro-choice or pro-life, generally people are happy when a baby survives.

And for the record, I'm pro-life, and I have had to be treated for depression before.

"my biggest supporter has been my boyfriend. He's the one who took me to get help in the first place and he's stuck by me ever since. Even in my darkest moments."

He's a keeper!

You see? I wasn't pointing fingers. Just curious.

Turns out people from both sides suffer from depression.

My heart goes out to all of you. While I don't have it, I have suffered greatly with my son. Almost lost him twice. It's a horrible thing.

My advice to you, as to him, is stay on those Meds.

What did people do 100 years ago when there weren't any medications?

mk

MK:

The people one hundred years ago who didn't have medications either ended up in those warehouses people called "mental hospitals" or they killed themselives.

love you MK,

but meds and doctors who prescribe them should be lined-up-and- ..... and I ain't a foolin'!

There is so much bs these days about 'alternate' medicine these days it's really pathetic. Alternate to synthetic orthodoxy is heaven-forbid - natural health.

Mary posted a very little bit about omega-3 fish oils for depression. Guess what! The highly recommended omega-3 oil for eye health is called DHA ... protected by bilberry extract. Also key to eye-health is zinc. [Zinc is held-in-place by the amino acid taurine. Taurine was also THE original anti-epileptic drug used. [Much too inexpensive to use these days, eh?] Maybe then, full-spectrum lights [usually 10,000 lux +] is used for S.A.D. (seasonal affective disorder)

Are you finally starting to understand that modern-medical practice is a money-making turn-style growth? [It ain't anyone's friend.] ... kill the da** thing!

John,

I agree that there are viable alternatives to mental disorders.

But I also know that my son was drawing demons on his wall, filling up notebooks with self hating, suicidal poetry and prose, getting into fights with everyone he knew and trying to kill himself on a weekly basis.

I also know that when he went on fish oil, nothing changed. But when he went on depakote I saw the boy I had long ago given up hope of ever seeing again.

While fish oil and st johns wort and ad infinitum may very well play an important role in mental health, I think it is dangerous to tout it over prescribed meds.

Your experience may have been different. But telling someone that is suicidal not to take their meds is irresponsible. Take the fish oil with the meds, by all means. But I don't feel comfortable play nutrionist or doctor when peoples lives are on the line.

Is the medical field corrupt? Sure, why not, I'll play.

But I'm not prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water.

And I love you too.
MK

The question for me then ,

just what is this bath-water? Is it really water or even more dirt? do we not just change one
dirty-water for another dirty-water?

I am not advocating an either-or scenario ... or how to get off meds. I'm saying that almost ALL meds are poisons and totally unnecessary.

If you son had been raised with the right nutrients and proper energy input, he would never have been in that symptom-fix in the first place. Meds never cure zip ....... delay - not end!

John, I dare say you are a lunatic. Diet has nothing to do with depression, bipolar disorder or other mental illnesses like schizophrenia. To even suggest such a thing is preposterous and offensive.

"If you son had been raised with the right nutrients and proper energy input, he would never have been in that symptom-fix in the first place. Meds never cure zip ....... delay - not end!"

And I find this just disgusting. If anybody ever said that to my parents about me, my dad would slug you so hard you'd go flying across the room. My grandparents would do the same. It's not my parents' fault I'm depressed, nor is it my grandparents' fault my mom is depressed, nor is it my great-grandparents's fault my grandparents are depressed (and so on).

Depression is often genetic, as is the case in my family, to even SUGGEST that our depression could have been "cured" or "prevented" by zinc or other bull like that is just idiotic and makes you look like a fool.

Hello everyone,

I've been a lurker for quite some time. I feel like I know you all and look forward to reading debates everyday. I haven't posted because I tend to where my feelings on my sleeve. I'm a big baby...lol.

I thought I would chime in on this conversation with a couple things:

1. Depression-I'm prolife, I have suffered from depression a few times in my life. Mine is mostly hormonal. Hormones can reallly do a number on your body. I found after I stopped taking the pill, my moods changed dramatically. Now the only time I have trouble is post partum. That is easily controlled with meds. FWIW, I stopped taking the pill for that reason, but yes, I'm now one of those "wackos" who believe the pill is an abortifacient. ;)

2. Danielle, I have been on Lexapro. The withdrawls are AWFUL! I seriously felt like a drug addict. I had the shakes, strange head zaps and other crazy stuff. It took about four weeks for the symptoms to subside. If they aren't working for you, look for another drug. Also, simply do a Google search on withdrawls from your particular drug and you will find out LOTS of info!

3. For those of you who went off your meds during pregnancy...Zoloft is safe to take (at least from what I've been told and everything I've read). So next time, look into that. I've had two healthy children where I took Zoloft from about 26 weeks on. Now, for more severe disorders, this might not be an option. But just thought I'd put that out there.

4. I'm on my ninth pregnancy...so take that! ;) I've had four miscarriages and this will be my fifth living child (Lord willing).

Meds never cure zip ....... delay - not end!

We're not saying that they do. All we're saying is that until a cure comes along they are a Godsend as a coping mechanism.

And when you say that all meds are poison and totally unnecessary, you are telling people to get off of them, which could be dangerous.

I'm sorry John. But on this we disagree. And by the way the baby was the benefit of the meds, the bath water was the corruption of the pharmaceutical companies.

mk

John McDonell:

Alright, I have PMDD. Basically, it is a disorder where, immediately before I menstruate, I have horrible mood swings. As my case is particularly bad, I can go from being euphoric to homicidal to suicidal depressed in about thirty minutes. I can remember times when I was about 15 that I would sit and cry for about half an hour, debate throwing myself out my window, and I would suddenly just be happy as could be and spend the rest of the day laughing with my family.

This, of course, is ignoring the physical symptoms: even with medication, I have cramps so severe that I usually cannot get out of bed. I can take some painkillers and it’ll take the edge off, but even then I have trouble functioning.

I have to be on birth control pills to control my mood swings and to mitigate the physical symptoms. From the time I turned 14 to my 19th birthday, I tried every natural remedy there was. I was very physically active, I took vitamins, and I ate healthily. But it never got better. I drank special tea, used special lotion, did everything possible to cure it. Again, it never got better. Even now, on a pill specifically for PMDD, I have trouble.

So, Mr. McDonell, tell me that these medications are “poisons” and “totally unnecessary.” I’m definitely agreeing with MK on this one. She’s got it right.

--Less

Oh Less,

I'm touched...:)

See I'm not so dumbb.

mk

MK, when it comes to depression/mental health issues and prescription medications, I'm totally with you on it. I think it's barbaric how the pharmaceutical companies charge so much money for medication that literally saves people's lives.

The fact that these companies can do this is one of the downfalls of capitalism.

When I lose my insurance in two years, I have no idea what I'm going to do...my anti-depressants cost over a hundred bucks a month without insurance, my birth control pills (for my meninghorria...sp?) cost 30 something a month, my anti-psoriasis lotions cost upwards to a 150 dollars a month (actually...150 dollars every 2-3 weeks when I use it regularly).

John,

You need to stop. People like you naysaying depression meds is a reason that it took me so long to get help.

I tried a few things before I went on meds and none of them made me feel any better. I was progressively getting worse. The stress of my first semester in college, being a full time student and working three jobs to pay for school, was really getting to me. I was breaking, suicidal, stressed, and unhappy.

I couldn't think straight. Everything was go, go, go, but my body just wasn't cooperating. I started getting later and later to work and class. Pretty soon I was taking off of work because I couldn't make myself get out of bed.

Going on meds was the best decision I ever made. No, it's not a happy pill. I still have to do other things to help myself, i.e. working out and eating healthy. But before I went on the meds there was no way I was doing any of that. I was too busy crying for no reason and finding millions of ways to kill myself with the objects in my room.

So you need to stop with this whole it's all about the vitamen's nonesense. Yes, take the meds with those, of course. But DO NOT go around telling people on depression meds to get off of them. Unless of course you enjoy people committing suicide.

wow, did I ever get you guys riled

I am however a little more knowledgeable about zinc than many here are. I've been studying this for more than 2 decades ... probably longer than many of you have been alive.

Our bodies are not like many drugs (impervious to other things). The nutrients in our body operate somewhat like a football TEAM. Many people understand that calcium is in bones and teeth, but calcium actually does over 500 things in the human body. [in case you think I made a typo, that's 5-0-0.] But as calcium relates to physical structure; zinc is tied into physical functioning to the tune of about 3-0-0 different functions, like wound healing, immune system health, skin and liver and pancreatic functioning .... on and on.

One small part of this is that zinc deficits can and do affect DNA-structure during gestation. [I (and thousands of other genetic ailment sufferers) are the result of insufficient zinc and vitamin B6 during pregnancy (say researchers).]

Other researchers found that zinc was used to build things on the insides of cells. So how does this zinc go from our food to the cells' insides? There's a wee ligand(molecule) called PgE2[prostaglandin E2), released by the pancreas that gleans the zinc from food. ... just wanted you to know this was not silly chatter I was making, but real stuff ......... I do not just spout off ...

I do not think that sufficient zinc intake will make DNA correct now ... but perhaps zinc-sufficiency can act like the way we use glasses for poor vision. Zinc does a myriad of things in our body besides affecting DNA during fetal development stages.

One thing it does seem to do is to affect moods ... likely connected to the amygdala and hypothalamus ... it also is strongly connected with the mossy fiber layers of the human cerebellum (the brain's activity/emotion coordinator). Everyone (and I do mean everyone) who has posted here seems a perfect candidate for a zinc deficit.

Bipolar may be little more problematic to solve. It (and schizophrenia) likely have a strong component of allergies and 'leaky gut' syndrome.

Just wanted you to realize that our penchant for meds is going nowhere.

Danielle,

just read you post .... there are two problems I see here ... nutrients like zinc are NOT any-old-vitamin , but are very specific. Most folks have no trouble rhyming off the tongue-twisting names of dozens of drugs, but have very little knowledge (even naming some) nutrients that are absolutely necessary for health. Your reactions could be the wrong blend or the wrong dose.

second - I do NOT wish anyone to stop their meds cold-turkey that could kill them -you were thinking suicide and I was thinking heart-attack or stroke. Talk to the doctor who prescribed you meds. When you feel strong enough ask him to guide you in weening off them

Meds never cure zip ....... delay - not end!

We're not saying that they do. All we're saying is that until a cure comes along they are a Godsend as a coping mechanism.

.................

right you are MK .... what I think you are implying is that our rainbow is with ... the Wizard ... of Oz.

Our answer is already in the Tin-Man and the Lion ...

Rae,

When I lose my insurance in two years, I have no idea what I'm going to do...my anti-depressants cost over a hundred bucks a month without insurance, my birth control pills (for my meninghorria...sp?) cost 30 something a month, my anti-psoriasis lotions cost upwards to a 150 dollars a month (actually...150 dollars every 2-3 weeks when I use it regularly).

Girl you're a veritable train wreck...

Can you go on medicaid or medicare? My son had to do a sliding scale thingy for awhile.

If your still in school full time and under 25 you might be able to use your folks insurance.

It's awful. I said somewhere else that the med my son is on for adhd is really used for narcolepsy and the insurance won't pay for it for adhd. And this is blue cross blue shield.

I don't know what to tell you. If you were a woman of faith, I tell you to get to mass, put it in His hands and expect a miracle. I'll pray for you. That's really scary. Psoriasis, while awful isn't life threatening, and even excessive bleeding most likely won't kill you, but depression is some serious stuff.

I'll be havin' a word with the Big Guy for ya.
mk

I'll be full-time in college until I'm 20-21 as I'm graduating a year early so I'm good until then. But I haven't decided on whether I'm going to go straight into medical school or if I'm going to take two years off to participate in the "Teach for America" program...and I know teachers get really crappy insurance coverage.

And the prices I listed above are for the medications without insurance, the copays are fortunately a lot lower.

But thank you, I do appreciate the support, even though we disagree on things. :)

As for the Blue Cross Blue Shield, my family uses that and we haven't really had problems with it, they have worked pretty well for us, I had to have reduction mammaplasty last year to prevent future back problems (it turned out great btw) and the insurance company pretty much covered the whole procedure since it was considered "reconstructive surgery" rather than cosmetic due to the amount of tissue removed.

Jill 11:15 am: "Read the last line in Snopes for the key reason the dr. had to downplay Baby Samuel's movement. The baby was underanesthetized."

"Samuel and his mother, Julie, were under anesthesia and could not move.

"The baby did not reach out," Bruner says. "The baby was anesthetized. The baby was not aware of what was going on." "

Jill, it says "under anesthesia," not "underanesthetized."

Cayte, my point for drawing people to that line was to show why the doc later tried to say he's the one who initiated touching the baby, even though the photographer saw the uterus move and the baby reach his hand out. The baby's movement indicated he was underanesthetized. That meant the doctor was operating on a baby who was not receiving enough anesthesia. He got caught.

Rae - When it comes to anti-depressants most pharmacutical companies have programs for people who cannot afford them because of no insurance. Get the name of the company that makes your med and find their website. My friend is on Welbutrin and when she lost her insurance she applied for their program and got 6 months free and then she was able to get insurance. So don't worry about that one. Most of these companies do have programs to help with medications like these.

John - I tried everything you are talking about. I went to a naturapathic doctor. I did the diet, zinc, b6, b12 and on and on and on. I do agree that putting chemicals in my body isn't the best way to be, but none of those remedies worked. Now, the ancupuncture did releive my migranes so I still do that. The message therapy (Riki, I think) is wonderful to relieve stress and help me sleep so I try to do that every month. I have also tried a special herbal ink that is applied to the skin (really cool! It looks like a weird tatoo and stays on for a couple days.) But I think that may have been more of a Native American treatment, maybe.

I did the whole thing, but the problem is with a chemical imbalance that is hereditary you need to correct that imbalance and the only way that is almost 95% affective is antidepressants. And nothing natural worked on my AD/HD! I take Adderall which is a true stimulant and I could use it as a sleeping pill, that is how bad my AD/HD is.

I say again, I do think that the natural way is good if you do not have a chemical/genetic problem. But the chemical way is the best for regular depression until you get your moods under control, then I am all for trying the other way.

"The baby's movement indicated he was underanesthetized. That meant the doctor was operating on a baby who was not receiving enough anesthesia. He got caught."

I find that hard to believe. If the baby _was_ underanesthetized, mom would have been too, the doctors and nurses present would have noticed it, and they would have adjusted the amount of anesthesia used. In any case, anesthesia is up to the anesthesiologist, not the surgeon, so the surgeon didn't "get caught" for anything.

Cayte, I realize we're speculating here. But I'm not the one who originated this theory. It has been presented pretty much as an explanation for differeing stories since the surgeon began to dispute the photographer.

So to complete the theory, based on your questions, yes, the anesthesiologist is responsible, but the surgeon would have been responsible to tell the anesthesiologist he detected movement... flinching perhaps, when suturing the baby. If he ignored that, he would have been accused of cruelty.

I don't know much at all about the field of anesthesia, but I expect a mother could feel nothing, or pulling and tugging perhaps, while the separate being inside her felt something more.

Cayte and Jill -

Anesthesia given to the Mother does affect the baby but not in the same way. In order to keep the baby asleep the Mother has to be put under very deeply and stay under longer which can be dangerous. If the Mother was in any type of distress, blood pressure rising or fallin; heartbeat not steady; oxygen level too low, then the anesthesiologist may have lowered the amount of medicine when the surgery on the baby was almost complete since the baby would no longer be needing it. The baby may have woke up quicker than the anesthesiologist thought he would. It is really just an educated quessing game sometimes. Every patient is different.

An example of this is a C-section. For health reasons sometimes the Mother has to be completely under (or in the 1950's some doctors would have the Mother asleep when delivering). The aneshesia is closely monitered so that the baby will not be put under the medicine so that the baby will breath correctly when born and the proper APGAR score can be charted. If the baby is too asleep than his/her life is in danger because they will not start to breath correctly.

Just an FYI as to how this could have happened.

Valerie-

I concede that that is entirely possible. I hadn't thought of that.

I am the photographer that took the original picture of Samuel reaching from his mother's womb.

www.michaelclancy.com

Samuel did reach from his mother's womb completely on his own, and he reacted to the touch of his surgeon by squeezing the doctor's finger. It is no mystery to me that Dr. Bruner can not admit the unborn child he was performing experimental surgery on simply came out from under the anesthesia too soon. The entire fetal surgery program was put in jeopardy when the good doctor decided to allow a newspaper photographer into his operating room. What was he thinking? It was apparent to me that I was the only one of some 15 people in that operating room that was surprised Samuel reached out. It had obviously happened before.

Dr. Bruner was the pioneer of this surgical procedure, he is no longer involved in fetal surgery. He has lost his job at Vanderbilt and several reporters have contacted me and stated that Dr. Bruner claims to be under a Gag Order and can make no further comment regarding Samuel's surgery or my picture.

Let me remind everyone how USA Today reporter Robert Davis started his original article, " In a crowded operating room where outsiders have gathered to watch a rare medical event, surgery on a fetus still in his mother's womb, a stool falls with a loud bang, "Hush," said, Joseph Bruner, the doctor leading the operation, "you'll wake the baby."

Blessings, Michael Clancy

Abortion is wrong. Anyone that would kill there own baby is disgusting.

If you don't want to become pregnant, don't have sex. Keep your legs closed, then you won't have to worry about murder.

Wow, way to miss the point, Amy. This episode, if real, would represent the one out of a hundred thousand annual cases annually aborted for the sake of saving the mother's life that DIDN'T result in the deaths of one or both patients. As House brilliantly points out, this was a statistical blip, less than .001% of all medically necessary abortion cases end this way. Many women choose to continue their pegnancies and die; isn't it nice that the government doesn't have carte blanche to require them to save their own lives at the cost of their fetus? Sure, they both die, but at least they have the CHOICE to do exactly what you think they should do. Some uninvolved moralist says "you should die with your baby," and the attending physician says "abort it so you can live" ... which of these sounds like the "pro-LIFE" solution? Moron.

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