The Washington Times reported today four pro-family groups have filed a lawsuit against the FDA for approving the sale of Plan B emergency contraceptives without a prescription to any adult over 18.

Well, didn't that just make my Friday the 13th!

This issue is of particular interest to me since I testified before an FDA committee against making Plan B available without a prescription in 2003.

So I have lots to say on the subject but will rest for a time on this point, as quoted from a press release announcing the lawsuit by one of the complaintants, Concerned Women for America:

CWA President Wendy Wright said, "The FDA buckled to pressure to do something it has never done before - make a high dose of a drug available without a prescription when a low dose of the same drug requires a prescription. The agency skirted laws and regulations put in place to ensure drugs are safe and effective, relenting under undue pressure from political operatives."

Morning-after pill proponents, explain this: If the lower dose birth control pill is available only by prescription, why should a much higher dose (10-15 times the same female hormones) be available without a prescription?

So you understand the magnitude of difference, Planned Parenthood's website recommends taking 20 Ovrette contraceptives at one time, followed by a second dose of 20 pills 12 hours later in substitution for Plan B.

The reason why PlanB is available without perscription, Jill, is that it's only effective within the first 72 hours of having unprotected sex. For that reason, it's incredibly important that women can get to it without waiting for a doctor's permission.

The key point here, to me, is that PlanB is sold to adults over 18. We're adults, Jill, and can make our own decisions about what we put in our bodies--or take out of them. We really don't need your concent, your blessing, or your opinion on the matter. I argue here not for any of the aformentioned, but because I enjoy arguing. Ultimately, however, I can go have an abortion or get PlanB or use a condom, and frankly, that's my business: just like it should be the private concern of every female.

Less, you're missing the point of my post. This is a health and safety issue. Where's your common sense? It's not ok to take one pill without a prescrption but ok to take 20 of the same (or equivalent) now and 20 in 12 hours?

Gosh Jill! You’re so influential and important!

I had no idea that submitting a letter of protest to CWA constituted “testifying before a government committee.”

Just a wee bit of an exaggeration don’t you think??

Regarding your “prescription” dilemma... despite your claims of medical training you seem oblivious to the that there are two criteria, in addition to safety, which are consider in the regulation of drugs; efficacy, and quality. In the case of Plan B, it must be taken within 72 hours, so efficacy is ultimately of concern when considering whether it should be over the counter or prescribed. Do you have some sort of 24-hour prescription hot-line in mind?? Also, BC is prescribed because “long term” usage may result in high blood pressure, thus a practitioner needs to check on you periodically before continuing use. Plan B is not intended for such long term use and that safety issue is not concern as it is for birth control pill.

Jill, from experience, PlanB is not fun. It's not healthy to take more than one. But as PlanB is preferable to having an abortion, I'd say its worth it. Many women feel the same.

It's certainly less dangerous than pregnancy.

Plus, Guttmacher has estimated that PlanB is responsible for 48% of the abortion rate decrease in the last ten years. You really want to take that away?

I think you're missing the point, Less. Plan B is not a harmless little drug. It is very powerful, much more powerful than a single BC pill. Yet, traditional BC requires a Rx. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

In my uninformed pro-choice days I took EC (not knowing that it could possibly prevent implantation). I have never felt worse in my life. Making medicine OTC implies that it is safe. No one thinks much of taking 3 or 4 tylenol. I can see the same thing happening with Plan B. With no physician oversite it is very open to abuse.

Less, there have also been studies that show that OTC sell of Plan B does absolutely NOTHING to reduce the rate of unplanned pregnancy.

I'd rather it be "open to abuse" and available to women who need it, to be honest. As Cameron pointed out, EC is not used long term. BC is. It doesn't seem odd to me at all: considering the time constraint associated with EC, it would seem odd to me if it weren't available OTC.

Citation, please, for your studies, Lauren?

Here's Mine.

It's like you're contradicting yourself Lauren, in addition to missing the point yourself.

"In my uninformed pro-choice days I took EC. I have never felt worse in my life."

"No one thinks much of taking 3 or 4 tylenol. I can see the same thing happening with Plan B."

Is it just me, or do the motives for taking pain killers vs. those for taking Plan B seem just a little contradictory.

LMAO

Cameron, 3:24p,said: "I had no idea that submitting a letter of protest to CWA constituted ?testifying before a government committee." Just a wee bit of an exaggeration don?t you think?"

Cameron, if you were a man, I'd swear you have small penis complex. I was there, silly girl. The link was to a written transcipt I gave orally.

Less, Guttmacher = biased source.

So, when a women abuses Plan B does this mean you are going to keep with the 'choice' mantra and say she has no right to sue when she becomes sterile or worse? Remember it was her right to have it as available as possible.

My biggest fear - uninformed people. What happens if a boyfriend wants his girlfriend to have an abortion and she says no, so he gets these pills and starts 'slipping' them to her. Yes, it is for protection 72 hours after sex. But if it stops that, wouldn't it stop a pregnancy too?

We have discussed many times that people are uninformed in regualar BC and don't use it correctly, but now we think they will be 100% informed about this and all will be peace, love and frisbee.

I'm in shock at the inconsistency here. How many teens do you know that have fake ID's?

Prove Guttmacher biased?

But if it stops that, wouldn't it stop a pregnancy too?

I meant for this to have "and this is what an uninfomred boyfriend might think" at the end of that....

Oh, Less, for heaven's sakes. Guttmacher is the research arm of Planned Parenthood.

Yes, I believe that if a woman overdoses on PlanB, with the information as available as it is, she has no right to sue. If the boyfriend slips it to her against her will, sue the boyfriend. The boyfriend could also slip massive quantities of Vitamin C to her with the same effect (abortion), want to make Vitamin C illegal too?

The time constraint vs. dosage makes no sense at all.

It would be like requireing Tylenol w/ Codeine to be a perscription drug while allowing morphine to go over the counter.

Just because it's the research arm of PP doesn't make it biased, Jill. Until you can prove something wrong with their procedures or their method of accertaining causation, you can't say their biased. Back your claims up, please.

Hmm let's see Cameron...

You REALLY REALLY don't want to be pregnant so you think "well, if two is good...three is probably better"

Do you honestly not see this as a possibility?

"So, when a women abuses Plan B does this mean you are going to keep with the 'choice' mantra and say she has no right to sue when she becomes sterile or worse? "

Yup. You're supposed to follow the instructions for taking the medication. Why should these women be able to sue because she didn't follow the instructions? It says clearly what you're supposed to do.

Plan B doesn't do anything once a embryo has implanted. And you can't get the pills for someone else; I'm pretty sure a guy doesn't qualify for this.

Less, your debate skills haved lapsed to overtly unintelligent.

Here's a link to my source. It requires free registration.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/548235

At least I cite my sources, Jill.

Lauren, could you copy/paste the valid part of the study? I can't register on this computer, unfortunately! Otherwise, I'll have to wait to respond. :)

Cameron, 3:24p, said: "Also, BC is prescribed because 'long term' usage may result in high blood pressure, thus a practitioner needs to check on you periodically before continuing use."

No, dear, BC's are CONTRAINDICATED for high blood pressure, something one doesn't have taken when making an over-the-counter purchase of medications.

Furthermore, BCs are contraindicated for diabetes, and if you've never been diagnosed, how do you know?

Furthermore, BCs are contraindicated for "undiagnosed uterine bleeding," which is hard to diagnose without a doctor.

You people show utter disregard for women's health just to uphold your supposedly feminist ideology, which you prove more and more is anti-woman.

No problem Less:

Dr. Elizabeth G. Raymond, from Family Health International in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, and her associates theorized that making access to emergency contraception as easy as possible would result in fewer pregnancies.

In a proactive program where women can keep on hand at all times at least two free packages of emergency contraceptive pills, the pregnancy rates are no lower and the sexually transmitted infection (STD) rates are no higher than when women have normal access to these medications, new study results suggest.

At the end of the 12 months, those in the easy access group had used significantly more pills sooner after unprotected intercourse, compared with the control group (12 hours versus 36 hours, p

"Yes, I believe that if a woman overdoses on PlanB, with the information as available as it is, she has no right to sue. If the boyfriend slips it to her against her will, sue the boyfriend. The boyfriend could also slip massive quantities of Vitamin C to her with the same effect (abortion), want to make Vitamin C illegal too?"

1st - life doesn't work that way. Phynelpropanolamen (PPA - i probably misspelled that ) is off the market now. Why, because women abused it because if taken in large dosages it is an appatite supressant. (and yes, the warning was on the boxes) They had strokes. Family sued. Now you can't even get the darn medicine WITH a prescription.

Explain to me again exactly how much Vitamin C must be used to induce abortion? And then explain to me how much of Plan B could cause a multitude of problems? I think a woman would notice the vit C before the plan B.

Sue the boyfriend huh? Your emotionless response to this is quite disturbing. Your selfishness is also disturbing. Who cares who the medicine could hurt as long as you don't have to be pregnant. Amazing.

As far as diabitics go:

"The effects of Plan B ® on carbohydrate metabolism are unknown. Some users of progestin-only
oral contraceptives (POPs) may experience slight deterioration in glucose tolerance, with
increases in plasma insulin; however, women with diabetes mellitus who use POPs do not
generally experience changes in their insulin requirements. Nonetheless, diabetic women should
be monitored while taking Plan B ®

http://www.go2planb.com/PDF/PlanBPI.pdf

I wish my BC pills were OTC...calling in for prescrpitions is such a royal pain. I also wish my anti-depressants were OTC, that would be nice as well as it kind of sucks paying nearly a hundred bucks a month for 30 pills. :(

Jill,

"if you were a man, I'd swear you have small penis complex. I was there, silly girl. The link was to a written transcipt I gave orally."

You're link is a letter and nothing more. None the less, I was able to find the hearing agenda for myself from FDA, and your name and a link to your presentation are there.

My bad... but not all my bad. Try to provide more appropriate links in the future.

Stephanie, 3:51p, said: "And you can't get the pills for someone else; I'm pretty sure a guy doesn't qualify for this."

Absolutely false, Stephanie. Plan B is available without a prescription to ANYONE over 18, man or woman.

Frankly, Valerie, I have no desire to be pregnant under any circumstances. I have reserached herbal birth control methods quite extensivly, and while I won't like to the sources out of respect to the owner (they all give detailed instructions on how to induce abortion), I can give you some vague information. The quantity for vitamin C is quite high, as you suggest, but vitamin C does not have significant side affects when used at the amount suggested for abortion.

Also, I believe Cameron is correct when s/he states that plan B does nothing to already implanted fetii. For that reason, it wouldn't be noticed.

Why wouldn't you sue the boyfriend? Why's that a disturbing response?

http://health.msn.com/pregnancykids/pregnancy/ArticlePage.aspx?cp-documentid=100144936:

Use of the "morning-after" pill has grown in Britain in recent years. In 1984, just 1 percent of women requesting an abortion said they had used it to try and prevent pregnancy. By 1996, that number risen to 6 percent, and, by 2002, it was 12 percent of women.

Although emergency contraception has been touted as the solution to rising abortion rates, abortion rates in Britain have increased from 11 per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44 in 1984 (136,388 abortions) to 17.8 per 1,000 women in 2004 (185,400 abortions), even though use of the pill has increased.

From same aforementioned link:

Ten different studies found that giving women a supply of emergency contraception to keep at home increased its use twofold to threefold but had no measurable effect on rates of abortion or pregnancy, Glasier noted in her editorial.

I wish my BC pills were OTC...calling in for prescrpitions is such a royal pain.

And how many other women are going feel the same way and treat plan b as if it were birth control, exactly because it is easier to get?

mk

Less, I'm sorry I called you unintelligent.

Jill,

"No, dear, BC's are CONTRAINDICATED for high blood pressure, something one doesn't have taken when making an over-the-counter purchase of medications. Furthermore, BCs are contraindicated for diabetes, and if you've never been diagnosed, how do you know?"

I have no idea what you mean by "something on doesn't have taken when..."

Yes, contraindicated... you don't get BC if you have high blood pressure, and they take you off it when and if you develop high blood pressure. It's like you're agreeing with me but pretending I'm somehow wrong. Weird!

I happen to know because my companion developed high blood pressure while on the pill and they would not renew her prescription. Not exactly a cereal box RN certification, but I think it should do.

Cameron, I meant one doesn't have their blood pressure taken when making an OTC medication purchase.

My point was that a woman is not to BEGIN taking bcs if she has high blood pressure, a critical factor in discussion of OTC bcs.

Jill,

"My point was that a woman is not to BEGIN taking bcs if she has high blood pressure, a critical factor in discussion of OTC bcs."

I didn't know we were discussing OTC BC, and BC are not OTC. I thought we were discussing Plan B being OTC in light of BC not being OTC. In which case, I don't know, but I really doubt that chronic high blood pressure is a concern when taking a few large doses, as opposed to long term persistant use of low doses.

Care to point us to this so far unheard of research which would suggest Plan B is a problem for those with high blood pressure??

"The quantity for vitamin C is quite high, as you suggest, but vitamin C does not have significant side affects when used at the amount suggested for abortion.

Also, I believe Cameron is correct when s/he states that plan B does nothing to already implanted fetii. For that reason, it wouldn't be noticed. "

Less -

I'm talking about a boyfriend slipping meds to his girlfriend because she made the 'choice' to say "I will keep my baby" but he made the 'choice' to say "I don't want the fetii". A woman would notice the vit C being slipped to them. Ever have vit C burps? I have!

also - when pregnant it is advised that the mother doesn't even take sudafed, Advil, anti-depressents etc. because of harm to the baby. And now you think Plan B wouldn't do anything?

"Why wouldn't you sue the boyfriend? Why's that a disturbing response?"

I would press charges for attempted murder. I would press charges for abuse. Get it?

from http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/AM/ah03-01.htm

"She should also be asked about her history of contraceptive use and history of contraindications to oral contraceptives. Physical examination should include determination of blood pressure"

This is a site for minors, but I would assume that the same steps would be taken with adults.

Valerie, I would think that one could press charges for abuse, and maybe even press charges for attempted murder. Not sure, to be honest. I've not seen any studies that address the issue of PlanB's affect on a fetus. I know that birth control doesn't have an affect on an already implanted egg, and they are the same/similar hormones.

As for Vitamin C: the woman would then notice that she was being slipped vitamin c, and could stop it.

Lauren, that's facinating, I've never seen that study. In light of this, more research certainly needs to be done into the area of PlanB, I would certainly agree.

My point, however, stands: that we are adults, and we can put into our bodies whatever we so choose. I know that in the UK, women are quickly interviewed by the pharmesit (Gods, I can't spell), which would be able to, at least on a shallow level, determine if there would be any major conditions with which PlanB would interfere. I don't know about the united states, however.

I think both BC and EC prescriptions should be more readily available (so that not only can get the Rx before they start having sex but even the next day) but synthetic hormones can definately interact with other medications present in the body so a doctor should definately make sure there isn't a conflict before letting people take them. Even like, a one time Rx would be fine, I just don't want people taking the drug and thinking it is harmless.

Less:

You admit that you enjoy arguing.

Is that why you are pro-death? Because you know you'll alwasy win the abortion argument between yourself and your baby?

Are you that insecure?

And you said something about adults being able to put anything in their own bodies. Apparently you've never heard of the DEA?

Perhaps we should eliminate all stop signs, speed limit signs and while were at it, traffic light signals. You know, examples of things that protect idiots from themselves.

Does the pro-death mentality point to a closeted desire for self annihilation or am I just imagining things?

I agree that we can put into our body whatever we so choose (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else). I also believe that the FDA has an obligation to ensure the safety of the things they mark as "safe".

"Does the pro-death mentality point to a closeted desire for self annihilation or am I just imagining things?"

Does anti-women mentality point to closeted desire to punish women for sex, or am I just imagining things?

Cameron- I can tell you without hesitation that I would be equally disgusted with abortion if men were the ones doing the killing.

My view on abortion has absolutely nothing to do with hating women and everything to do with hating killing.

Cameron- I can tell you without hesitation that I would be equally disgusted with abortion if men were the ones doing the killing.

My view on abortion has absolutely nothing to do with hating women and everything to do with hating killing.

Right on!

HisMan, I'm pro-choice because I believe that women are more than babychambers, and that women should have every right to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to be mothers.

I believe also that all drugs should be legalized and taxed, as I see no reason for the government to be legislating such things.

Traffic signs and speed limits are there to protect idiots from others, not themselves. Anyone else they would kill would be a born person with the right to live, and would therefor be akin to murder.

I have no "closeted desire for self-annihilation," simply a desire to decide my own future: a future that will not include children or pregnancy.

PLEASE PRAY!

A tornado touched down where my husband was meeting with his boss and I can't get ahold of either of them!

Lauren,

"My view on abortion has absolutely nothing to do with hating women and everything to do with hating killing."

So you don't believe in self-defense, war, capital punishment, as well a person’s right to deny the use of their own body for the purposes of keeping another alive???

He's safe.

Oh, dear. God, please make sure Lauren's husband and boss are safe and that he will get ahold of her real soon so she doesn't have to worry. And please help Lauren be still and know.

Well, that answer came quickly... :)

Yeah, I'm in the middle of the storms too, Lauren. It's bad. If you need anything, give me a shout on the boards, I'll help however I can. I feel your pain. :(

I'm glad about your husband, though, I just saw that! Yay! :)

Were do you all live?

I don't know about Lauren; the same branch of storms stretches across a load of the south. I'm in Dallas. I'm terrified of tornados: I lived in Kansas until I was 13, and had one touch down right in my backyard when I was nine. Then another whipped the powerlines away from a resturant I was eating in. Plus I'm in a dorm right now, on the top level, with no basement. So yeah, I'm frantically cleaning my room: my coping mechanism.

Suburb of Chicago

I'm in Ft. Worth Less!

Less, I've been watching the storm cross Dallas. I'm praying for you. TV station says connections to Dallas have been lost. Maybe you'd better go to the basement, Less.

Shoot, just reread your post. No basement. Am praying, Less.

Hahaha, we're city buddys. :P My family's all down here, and apparently the storms are slowing down, but not much. There was a huge tornado spotted forming in downtown Dallas a few minutes ago, but it seems to have disappated. Phew.

I'm from Oklahoma---in the middle of Tornado Alley. But our town always seemed to just be missed by most of the storms. Moore always gets devastatingly hit every other year or so. I wonder why people still live there.

Do you get a lot of tornadoes in Texas? Or Illinois for that matter?

Yes, we're in the tornado belt, too. Don't get as many as OK or KS, though.

Showing photo on tv of baseball-sized hail in Dallas.

Thanks, Jill. I do appreciate it. :( I have a laptop and believe it or not, the wireless is still working. Thank Heaven: I've got the tab up to a weather website. There's a bottom level of the dorms, so I'm down there in the hall. Lucky me, I'm on the outlying area, so I should be safe. The moment it seems to be safe, I'm headed over to a friend's apartment: it's way safer over there, and it's within walking distance.

Oh man, it's getting even worse. The cable stations in Dallas are slowly going out, one by one. It's starting to lightening really bad

Texas gets loads of tornado watches, come summer.

Minnesota hasn't had a bad tornado in nearly 5 years...at least that's the last time we had a bad enough storm to actually go to the basement.

Big storms are sooooo much fun, in my opinion. My would always send us to the basement during really bad storms and he'd sit upstairs in the living room watching the storm listening for tornados (they sound like trains apparently...) while my brothers and I would be in the basement panicking wondering where the stupid cat was (under my parents bed).

Anyvay. :)

Thanks for the prayers everyone. Less I'm praying for you too!

PIP my grandparents live in Moore LOL!

Oh my goss. My husband's warehouse might have been hit!

Haha Lauren! I hope Moore doesn't get it this year!!

Storms have always been really exciting for me. The last time we had base-ball sized hail at least all of the cars were super-cheap.

Me too! My grandparents have never actually been hit before, but in the HUGE storm about 5 years ago, half their street was knocked out.

Yeah I don't know how many times we saw that on the news. Devastating.

The last big storm we had, our neighbor's trampoline was blown OVER a few houses and into the drainage "pond" behind those houses and a chunk of trampoline was embedded in one of the roofs.

Thankfully it looks like no one has been hurt in this storm. Praise God.

Jill Stanek is the only person I've ever met who said that Guttmacher is a BIASED source!

Hahahaha, even the pro-lifers I deal with normally have enough common sense to admit it is un-biased.

And they are the ones who are always screaming, "Don't have sex!"

Hmm Erik, I've heard Guttmacher described as biased quite a few times. Not necessaraly invaild, but it's about on par with the Eliot Institute as far bias goes.

Yeah, apparently all the tornados have died out, and the storms here fizzled out! I'm safe and sound in my friend's apartment, sigh. My TV is a bit wet (carried across the campus, haha), but other than that, no damage. We didn't even get any hail.

I remember when Moore got hit; my dad's cousins lost everything. I felt so bad for them. Lauren, I hope your husband's warehouse didn't get hit!

I'm watching the news right now...some church got hit. I feel so bad for the people who got hit. I feel so lucky.

PiP, you're right! I'd forgotten about the cars being cheaper. There's a silver lining to every hook cloud, eh? :P (I have gallows humor sometimes, just kidding guys.)

You mean scientific? It provides FACTS.

Yeah, I just saw the church. It's right down the street from Hub's warehouse so we'll see.

He works for UPS so if anyone's expecting a package it might be delayed...

Eric- It provides research. While composite research may eventually constitute fact, individual studies do not.

It looks like two people may be injured so keep them in your prayers.

You Catholics and Colbert fans must enjoy this video:

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=85176&ml_collection=&ml_gateway=&ml_gatewa
y_id=&ml_comedian=&ml_runtime=&ml_context=show&ml
_origin_url=%2Fshows%2Fthe_colbert_report%2Fvideos
%2Fmost_recent%
2Findex.jhtml&ml_playlist=&lnk=&is_large=true

You k now. While you're waiting for the storm to pass.

Pretty in Pink:

Lolz..."He has a-raisin!"

Well, I can certainly understand why some pro-life people would think that Guttmacher, despite its scientific cred, is biased simply because of its affiliation with PP. Many people do consider PP to be the AntiChrist organization.

I keep Plan B on hand -- hope I never have to use it, but figure I don`t want to be scrambling around for a prescription in a worst-case scenario.

My favorite Colbert was when he interviewed Bill O'Riley.

O'Riley said something along the lines of "I'm not really that much of a tough guy...it's kind of an act"

And Colbert was like "Wait, if *you're* an act, what does that make me?"

I feel so bad for Stephen, his son Stephen Junior keeps going up to Canada to smoke pot. :(

Oh no, someone died in the storm. Prayers for his family.

Lauren,is everything allright??

Momof3, there were some storms that ran through Texas. Fiveish tornados touched down, and there was a confirmed fatality. :(

And all he has to entice him back is chicken Rae!!!

Lauren--so great. I'm so glad Colbert stole his microwave!!

Thanks Less.I was out to dinner with friends and just got in.Needless to say I missed the News this evening.I saw Lauren's post and wondered what had happened.

I agree that it's paradoxical. The solution is to deregulate b/c, not to overregulate Plan B.

Thanks for the concern Mo3. We're fine, but an area in the poorer part of town was hit pretty hard, and at least one person died. Alot of people lost homes as well. I'm definitely praying for everyone tonight.

Here's a question for you, Jill.

If you could save the life of a pre-born baby by lying to a pregnant woman about the dangers associated with abortion, would you do so or would you let the pre-born baby be killed?

PIP, 7:50p, Colbert: haha - "Walking vanilla envelope, Harry Reid" - ain't that the truth!

SOMG, 9:19p, asked: "Here's a question for you, Jill. If you could save the life of a pre-born baby by lying to a pregnant woman about the dangers associated with abortion, would you do so or would you let the pre-born baby be killed?"

Assuming there were no other way around your scenario, I'd lie.

And if you thought you could save the life of a pre-born baby by exaggerating the dangers of Plan B in a letter to congress, would you do that too, or would you let the baby be killed?

"Absolutely false, Stephanie. Plan B is available without a prescription to ANYONE over 18, man or woman."

I thought over the counter meant you didn't have to go in to see someone in order to get a prescription, you could just phone in and get it. So you can purchase Plan B like you could Tylenol?

One side of me says that this is good, since the point of Plan B is to prevent conception and it works best the sooner you take it.

However, now that you mention the possibility of abuse, I can see where your concerns are. As for silly people thinking "if two is good, three must be better", that could be easily remedied by having a quick, mandatory consultation with a pharmacist telling the people how to use it properly and other such things.

I also meant to say that I wasn't too concerned about abuse.

SOMG, 9:28p, Good one, but no.

I consider the first case you presented an actual moment in time when I could save a life or not and would consider the greater good to be served by lying.

I base that answer on Scriptural precedent. Have studied that:

Exodus 1: When Pharoah told the midwives to kill the baby boys and they said they would and lied, and the Bible says they were blessed.

Exodus 2: When Moses' mother disobeyed Pharoah and hid him as long as she could, and when Pharoah's daughter discovered him in the Nile, Moses' sister deceived her to allow Moses' mother to raise him.

Joshua 2,6: When Rahab the Prostitute disobeyed her king and hid the Jewish spies to save their lives. She was rewarded by being in the lineage of Jesus.

i Samuel 19: When Jonathan and Michal, son and daughter of Saul the King as well as best friend and wife of David, disobeyed and lied to their father to help David escape Saul's plan to kill him.

Matthew 2: When Herod the King told the Wise Men to return and tell him where the Messiah was, and they said ok, and then God warned them in a dream to disobey Herod, because Herod planned to kill Jesus.

All these indicate God puts the highest priority on the lives of those created in His image - us. He will condone lying and disobedience of earthly leaders to save lives.

Stephanie, it's available behind-the-counter, like cigarettes, so pharmacists can check ID. But anyone over 18 can get it.

Jill, so you'd let a preborn baby get killed rather than exaggerate the dangers of Plan B in a letter to congress?

You'd have innocent blood on your hands rather than exaggerate the dangers of Plan B in a letter to congress?

SOMG or whoever you want to be:

Jill, so you'd let a preborn baby get killed rather than exaggerate the dangers of Plan B in a letter to congress?
You'd have innocent blood on your hands rather than exaggerate the dangers of Plan B in a letter to congress?

You know this is not a fair question. You know it is misleading because it implies that Jill's lie could actually save a baby, definitely.

If Jill did exaggerate or mislead about the dangers of Plan B, it would be easily disproved, and nothing would change, no babies would be saved, no mothers would be saved...and in fact, more babies would be in danger of dying because of the lie, and more mothers would be injured because they would be less likely to believe pro-life claims and more likely to accept the lies of the left.

No innocent blood will be on her hands, SOMG...she hasn't lied about Plan B.

Jill, picture this moment: You're in a room with a pregnant woman. She says: "Jill, if you don't write a letter to Congress exaggerating the dangers of OTC PlanB, I'm gonna go out and get an abortion right now!" What do you do, write the letter or watch her go kill her innocent preborn?

Also, Jill, I can't believe you made such a weak argument in your letter to Congress. We should require a script for Plan B because otherwise sexual predators might poison their victims with it!? Should we require a script for condoms because sexual predators might use them too?

Jill, picture this moment: You're in a room with a pregnant woman. She says: "Jill, if you don't write a letter to Congress exaggerating the dangers of OTC PlanB, I'm gonna go out and get an abortion right now!" What do you do, write the letter or watch her go kill her innocent preborn?

What? And potentially kill hundreds or thousands more babies (as I explained above)?

All that on the possibility that this woman might kill her own child and blame it on Jill?

BTW, I am not, nor have I ever called myself, LG.

If any of you have not seen CITIZEN RUTH, put it on your Netflix list.

I know, I know, this was a long time ago, but Jill, you said: "Less, Guttmacher = biased source"

If that's so, Jill ... why do you site facts from Guttmacher frequently? Just because it has stats that prove your hypotheses wrong, doesn't mean it's biased.

If that's so, Jill ... why do you site facts from Guttmacher frequently? Just because it has stats that prove your hypotheses wrong, doesn't mean it's biased.

She quotes them because it's a source that YOU guys respect. If she use our sources YOU say that they are biased.
mk

SOMG, Bethany gave the answers I would. (Actually, she stated them more succinctly and clearly than I would.)

Leah, sometimes Guttmacher can't help but come to the same conclusion on issues that pro-lifers would. In that case I'll site Guttmacher b/c you guys will trust Guttmacher.

But most times Guttmacher skews studies and statistics to favor the pro-death culture, as it did when saying free access to Plan B lowers abortion, when actualities in at least two countries I can think of - England and Scotland - proved otherwise.

SOMG, 4/13, 11:34, said: "We should require a script for Plan B because otherwise sexual predators might poison their victims with it!?:"

SOMG, men have already abused over-the-counter morning-after-pills. See this fascinating article, "Morning after blues," on the aftermath of MAP legality in Taiwan. http://www.morningafterpill.org/bangkok.htm

And more and more news articles have been popping up lately of men in the US attempting to kill babies of their pregnant girlfriends by slipping them meds. The articles never say which meds. But it would stand to reason they would give this one a try.

I'm not denying that sexual predators may abuse Plan B; I'm denying that that's a good reason to require a prescription for it.

Should we also require a prescription for condoms, lest sexual predators use them too?

I've only seen one article about that (a guy who induced a miscarriage in his girlfriend by spiking her drink) and from the description I concluded he used misoprostol (cytotec), which is a poor choice because it starts working right away.

Methotrexate or mifepristone are better choices. A slug of methotrexate would cause a miscarriage with delayed expulsion. She'd never know what caused it.

SOMG, the difference is Plan B is a medication. Many medications are available only by prescription or altogether illegal for fear of abuse.

Tell me why in the world the FDA made Plan B available without a prescription to men as well as women?

I daresay a man could not typically find an ob/gyn to prescribe him hormonal birth control.

Should we also require a prescription for condoms, lest sexual predators use them too?

Is the use of the condom really equatable to placing drugs or hormones in a person's body without their permission? As much as the rape itself is a violation of the woman's body, drugging her against her will is also a violation. The condom does not add or subtract from the violation of rape, but giving a woman Plan b without her knowledge or consent adds to it and makes certain that there be two violations to her body, instead of just one.

I find the whole idea of limiting people's contraceptive or contragestive options because of what a sexual predator might or might not do offensive. What are we, a nation of prisoners? Guilty unless proven innocent?

It's not the FDA's business to protect us from poisoners; that's the Attorney General's job.

Answer the questions, SOMG. You got answers to your questons, now answer ours.

Jill's question:
Tell me why in the world the FDA made Plan B available without a prescription to men as well as women?

My question:
Is the use of the condom really equatable to placing drugs or hormones in a person's body without their permission? As much as the rape itself is a violation of the woman's body, drugging her against her will is also a violation. The condom does not add or subtract from the violation of rape, but giving a woman Plan b without her knowledge or consent adds to it and makes certain that there be two violations to her body, instead of just one.

To Jill's question, I don't know why the FDA made Plan B available to men.

To Bethany, I agree, for what it's worth, of course a rapist using a condom is not as bad as a rapist forcing Plan B on his victim. (For one thing the Plan B does not protect the victim from STDs as the condom would.) But Jill's argument, that Plan B is subject to abuse by predators in order to conceal or prolong an illegal sexual relationship by preventing pregnancy, applies equally well to all male contraceptive methods. It's just not an acceptable reason for limiting prople's contraceptive options. It's not the FDA's business to protect us from sexual predators.

But Jill's argument, that Plan B is subject to abuse by predators in order to conceal or prolong an illegal sexual relationship by preventing pregnancy, applies equally well to all male contraceptive methods.

That's not the only argument, SOMG. I appreciate your agreeing with me on the point that PlanB would be another harsh violation to a woman's body as opposed to condoms. Since you acknowledge this is true, then why can't you also agree that this particular means of "preventing a pregnancy" as you put it (even though it can prevent implantation of an already conceived embryo, which ends the life of the conceived, therefore terminating a pregnancy in some situations as opposed to "preventing" pregnancy), is much more dangerous to have available over the counter and available to men, who could violate a woman's body by raping her then drugging her with this to prevent the crime from being known? This is not the same as other mens' methods of contraception, unless there's a form I am not aware of which has harmful risks to the woman as well and also happens to be over the counter.

Shouldn't you (supposedly for a woman's right to choose what she puts in her body) at least want a woman to be able to get a prescription first, for her own protection from potential rapists who would do her harm in this way?

Bethany, you wrote: "Shouldn't you ... at least want a woman to be able to get a prescription first, for her own protection from potential rapists who would do her harm in this way? "

You wrote that the potential for abuse by predators isn't the only argument--and then you made that very same argument again!

The question isn't whether or not she should be "able" to get a prescription. The question is whether she should be FORCED to get a prescription (if she wants the Plan B.) And the answer is, no!

SOMG, you claimed incorrectly, that:
" But Jill's argument, that Plan B is subject to abuse by predators in order to conceal or prolong an illegal sexual relationship by preventing pregnancy, applies equally well to all male contraceptive methods. "

I wrote my post to counter this argument. The condom is not EQUAL to Plan B, by any means. This argument is not ONLY that rapists could try to conceal the crime by using the Plan B pill, but that they would be violating the woman a second time, putting them in potential danger by giving her hormones which could be harmful to her body. Pay attention.

I cannot buy Robitussin cough medicine over the counter without signing a waiver anymore, because of the abuse of dextromethorphan.

Wouldn't it at least make sense that the person purchasing the MAP sign a waiver also.

Then it could be tracked if anything untoward happened.

I can't believe I just compromised on the MAP.

But this would seem like the very least that should be done.

I'm more "abortion" savvy than most and I still get confused on the differences between the MAP and the abortion pill...

I can't imagine that the general public will fare much better. Most of them don't know the difference between the two kinds of stem cells...

Bethany, I didn't say that condoms and plan B were equal GENERALLY, just that Jill's particular argument, that Plan B is subject to abuse by predators in order to conceal or prolong an illegal sexual relationship by preventing pregnancy, applies equally well to all male contraceptive methods because they can also be used--more easily, in fact--by sexual predators to conceal or prolong an illegal sexual relation by preventing pregnancy. How nice or nasty it all might be for the victim is not in dispute. I really don't understand why you have trouble with this.

I really don't understand why you have trouble with this.

Ahhhhh SOMG,

What you don't understand could fill volumes...
mk

SOMG, like I said, that is not the ONLY argument.

BTW that wasn't me asking about aborting right-to-lifers, that was a violent character called Doctor Defense.

I know you have psychopathic tendencies, but now you have an alter personality too? You just get creepier and creepier.

At least you admit you're violent!

mk

haha :D

Bethany, it is the only argument in Jill's "testimony" except for a passing mention of the high dose of hormones involved and the lack of long-term multiple-use studies.

MK, SOMG did absolutely NOTHING to attack you in the posts on here. Yet it's fair to attack him without provokation?

Less, SOMG is a liar and an internet troll, and he comes here to stir up trouble, using multiple aliases.

Bethany, does that make it okay to attack him? What happened to Christian love and tolerance?

Less, I'm sorry if I offended you by laughing at what MK said. I can't blame her for saying it. It was true(!), and SOMG has been getting on a lot of nerves lately. Just because he hasn't attacked her personally today, doesn't mean she have reason to retaliate against the very many mean statements he's sending out against Jill on this site, and has been for several weeks now. This is Jill's site- her domain...MK is Jill's friend. Friends defend friends. What would you do if it was your friend's blog, and someone was trying to sabotage everything she said and make her a liar, even if she wasn't? I'm sure it wouldn't be pretty.

But again, I'm sorry if my part in this post offended you. Hope you have a good evening.

Oh, Bethany, it didn't offend me. I just see all this nastiness directed SOMG and Cameran, particularly by MK. Now, I've read plenty of rather horrid posts on both sides, but this time it just didn't seem warrented. I mean, I can see what you're saying, and for all I know it doesn't bother either of them, but it just seems like we'd get way farther in the argument if everyone would stop being so catty.

Less,

I'm sorry that it offended you too. But Cameron has seriously contributed nothing to this site. If I thought he was sincere I'd be there for him. But he doesn't even address the issues. He comes out of left field and just attacks on irrelevant points.

Instead of the "I think the sky is blue, why do you say it's read" he begins every sentence by attacking. "You're so stupid you think the sky is blue, but no, you'll never admit it because you an idiot twit with not brain cells that work..."

Sometimes it just gets to be too much. You know that I rarely fly off the handle, but really, I too am only human.

As for SOMG, truly, he has 10 different names that he blogs on here with. And I think he knows that I'm just razzing him. If I thought for one minute that I was actually hurting or offending him, I'd back off. I get the feeling he enjoys the bantering as much as I do. If not, and he asks me to stop, I will totally be done.

Okay?

mk

Less,

I'm sorry that it offended you too. But Cameron has seriously contributed nothing to this site. If I thought he was sincere I'd be there for him. But he doesn't even address the issues. He comes out of left field and just attacks on irrelevant points.

Instead of the "I think the sky is blue, why do you say it's read" he begins every sentence by attacking. "You're so stupid you think the sky is blue, but no, you'll never admit it because you an idiot twit with not brain cells that work..."

Sometimes it just gets to be too much. You know that I rarely fly off the handle, but really, I too am only human.

As for SOMG, truly, he has 10 different names that he blogs on here with. And I think he knows that I'm just razzing him. If I thought for one minute that I was actually hurting or offending him, I'd back off. I get the feeling he enjoys the bantering as much as I do. If not, and he asks me to stop, I will totally be done.

Okay?

mk

this is the post I was responding to by Cameron
“Gays and pro-aborts both fight for the same goal: Sex without judgment or consequences”

I suspect I’m suppose to launch a defense of both gays and pro-choice, but mostly I’m wondering why, among all the name calling, y’all haven’t resorted to calling us anti-responsibility now. Whatever the case, thanks for facilitating and reinforcing what we always new; y’all don’t really care about the pre-babies so much as punishing people for having had sex.
“Many if not most pro-abortion commentators on this site approach their debate from the "safe, legal, and rare" standpoint. They vigorously fight being labeled "pro-abortion" than "pro-choice."
Many anti-choice on this site refuse to debate. It’s because when it comes down to it, they can not defend their world-view, and they will engage in any number of distractions rather than discuss and elaborate on the meaning and realities of their perfect world. Their world-view is one in which all fetuses are registered upon conception and women take monthly pee tests. Their world view is one in which we must take organs from others, whether or not they are willingly donated, in order to save/facilitate any and all life. Their world-view is divorced from reason and higher order morality, as a result, they hide behind dualistic notions that are inadequate for the purposes of addressing those troubling grey areas of reality. They hide behind “innocent” fetus-centric rhetoric, and stand defiantly with obliviousness to ultimate costs/benefits and nuances.

I have a name for that, it’s simple minded.

It's almost like he's pushing buttons to get a reaction...any reaction. I guess I'm just pushing back because eventually we'll have it out and then maybe he can enter the discussion as an equal voice. I did apologize and he accepted it and I am sincerely hoping that both of us will try harder.

MK, to tell the truth, I agree with Cameron. S/he's more blunt about it than I am and a bit more acidic, but I agree with the points in that post. I'd venture to say that there's a bit of bitterness behind his/her words, but I think there’s a smidge of truth behind them as well.

SOMG is more inflammatory, I would agree. But in this case, he kept his insults to him/herself. I think attacking him/her outright is a bit presumptuous. Unless, as you say s/he enjoys the banter, which might well be true, I've no idea. In that case, hey, have at it. I know the feeling.

Less,

absolutely. I agree with you 100%. But he is soooo vitriolic that you can't even get to what he's saying. And most of time it isn't about anything

I know we all get touch and sarcastic sometimes, but his is usually unprovoked. You know what I mean?

Anyway, like I said, I hope we both do better in the future.

mk