I was surprsied by a couple comments to the Tiller post yesterday that for all the complaints against pro-lifers for showing graphic images of aborted babies, some of you have actually never seen abortion.

Justice for All has made two profound videos, first The Hard Truth and then The Harder Truth. The Harder Truth is below. Among other things, It shows a video clip of the face of a baby as s/he is being aborted.

As a personal aside, my #2 son interned for JFA a few summers ago while in college as The Harder Truth was being finalized. It was his responsibiliity to go through, and frame by frame, 10 hours a day for a couple weeks, blur pornographic displays of a mother's perinneal area so the focus would be on the baby being aborted and film viewable in church and by young people. The experience was traumatic for him.

Don't continue to support abortion without knowing what you support.

The Harder Truth

Jill -

How empty does my stomach have to be before I watch this? Is it worse that what they have on abort73.com? Because when I went on that website I lost my lunch.

I know that I am already pro-life and some may think I don't have to watch the video. But it is these video's and the pictures that gives me the strenght to keep passion in my heart to end this.

I have seen this video before.I can't believe that a child is all snuggled up in his mother's womb, and then all of a sudden the instruments of death invade.God's beautiful art work reduced to torn,rotted flesh.Ugly,pathetic and cruel to say the least.

Valerie, yes, it is more graphic than abort73.com.

Jill, it said in the introduction to the video that the images of late-term abortions were mostly obtained from bodies thrown in dumpsters. Isnt it illegal to use those images in a publicly released video? The pro-choicers are going to jump right on that, despite the horror of the photos.

Samantha, it would be no more illegal to film aborted babies in dumpsters than filming any garbage in America.

I don't know the exact story behind how those babies were retrieved, but it was at least a decade ago.

FYI, abortionists no longer dump babies in the trash. They either incinerate them, as Tiller now does, illegally grind them up in sink garbage disposals, illegally flush them down the toilet, or have them hauled away by waste disposal companies.

Personal autonomy.
Not a person.
A parasite.
Fetii.
No rights.
Two reasons to respect Tiller: 1. he's very good at his job.

"As much as I am repulsed by abortion I can't switch over with a good conscience--for the women involved.

I am pro choice meaning I think women should have the choice to do what they want...

You make life seem as if it is so black and white. When it rarely is.

Show me a fetus who can hold a pen and draw. Show me a fetus who know ho to drive a car. Show me a fetus eating a hotdog. Show me a fetus using a toilet.

It's not. But being a human being is more than being a bunch of cells.

While I do agree that to be a person is innate, I do not think that this innate property can be justified for a fetus which can not live outside of the mother.

This live birth stuff must really erk the pro-bloody-fetus-porn industry (Jill's trade), because it's such a waste to leave them laying on shelves to die when you could be throwing the bloody lil' bodies at cars and patients leaving clinics.

I understand that abortion is not moral....for you.

There is a difference in a fetus using a body to grow in and use the resources and conjoined twins sharing the same body.

Whether or not the uterus is designed to hold a fetus, the fact remains that the uterus is the mothers organ and not the fetus. The fetus has no claim to it because if the fetus wasn't conceived, the uterus would still exist.

A human is a human when it is a fully developed bipedal being with homosapien DNA. Something is human when it has human DNA.

death is nothing but the next great adventure.

Lando and Michael are examples of men who don't believe women to be walking wombs or gestational devices. Let's give them a hand, free-thinking ladies. :)

Frankly, the reason why I'm not disgusted by any of the senarios you mention is because, in all the cases but one, the baby is dead. I really don't care what happens to a corpse. As for baby

I believe that human life is important, but basic rights are more important. The right to own one�s own body is the most important.

Duh. Maybe the women who have an abortion did not have a good relationship. they tend to have myrads of reasons

It's the worst holocaust of the most diabolical kind that has ever occurred in human history."

Really? This is the same as torturing living, breathing people? Starving them to death? Working them to death? Do scientific experiments on them until they die? Testing twins to see if they would die at the same time when put under the same circumstances? I fail to see how this is at all comparable to the Holocaust.

The bottom line is that legally, a fetus is not a person. Therefore, legally, a fetus cannot be murdered. Therefore, legally, abortion is not murder. Therefore, abortion is legal.

The cheaper you operate, the less you need to charge the patients. Poor patients, many of them uninsured, are grateful for low fees.

You're right, MK, I would be appalled if a clinic was filthy. But if it's operating under sanitary conditions, then I'm alright with it being open.

And if you listen this time, I'll say it again:
Pro-Choice means you have the freedom to decide what happens with your body. We support women deciding for abortions and we equally support women deciding to have their babys. Okay? It's not about killing, it's about being able and allowed to choose.

A woman is no more obligated to loan her uterus to a fetus for nine months than His Man is to donate his kidney to the homeless man on the corner of Madison and 5th Avenue.

esearching the claims made by both sides and being able to keep my belief system separate from political beliefs. The claims by the pro choice side made more sense and tended to have more information on the issue, and made sense in terms of many of the arguments, so I switched.

That said, I am not "pro-abortion". I just think that the right to bodily autonomy and the choice of what one allows to be done to his or her body is paramount over the rights of a being trying to usurp control over said body, whether it be aware of said takeover or not. Innocence has no bearing on it, and you do not have any right to control or use my body for your benefit if I do not grant you the right to do it. The same goes for a fetus.

Phooey!
mk

Phooey!

Even many "pro-aborts" like me think late-term abortions are always awful, bloody business --- but "awful, bloody business" does not always correlate with "always morally wrong," and no matter how many graphic photos and films we see, some of us continue to believe that circumstances warrant them.

One problem with using graphic pictures of late-term abortions to evoke emotional responses: it can work the other way for first-trimester abortions.

I heard about a girl in my high school years ago who originally planned to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term, until she went to the library and looked at medical texts with graphic pictures of fetal development (this was before the Internet). She said she hadn`t realized how tiny and and undeveloped an embryo is, and decided she had no qualms about aborting one.

Playing to people`s emotional responses doesn`t always result in the same outcome.

In fact, it was a graphic pro-life film that turned me from the pro-life side to the pro-choice side when I was a teenager. It forced me to realize that horible though abortion is, I would have one if I were raped, and therefore I could never call myself "pro-life" again.

Have you ever heard some of the excuses these women have used to get their abortions? Well,I have! The ones I have spoken to did it for selfish reasons! This angers me! You wanted to have your fun,but you didn't want any consequences.

I don't know Cameron...
You tell us.
mk

MK

Your capacity for responding is bordering on breathlessly inane... as oposed to your ussual inane.

Cameron,

*Yawn*

"Have you ever heard some of the excuses these women have used to get their abortions? Well,I have! The ones I have spoken to did it for selfish reasons! This angers me! You wanted to have your fun,but you didn't want any consequences."

One woman`s "excuse" is another`s good reason. I personally think avoiding all the risks and horrors of pregnancy and childbirth is a perfectly acceptable reason to abort.

(By the way, I`m also a "momof3" -- although some of the people here might consider me a "momof4.")

More truth.
Audio, not video.
You guys complain about rape.
Well, here you go...

http://www.childpredators.com/

One woman`s "excuse" is another`s good reason. I personally think avoiding all the risks and horrors of pregnancy and childbirth is a perfectly acceptable reason to abort.

Some people can apparently "excuse" anything.

Risks and horrors of pregnancy?

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fear of childbirth
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fear of childbirth

Tokophobia, or fear of childbirth, is a form of specific phobia. Debate currently rages within the obstetic and psychiatric communities regarding the woman's right to choose mode of delivery - be it the right of a women to request a caesarean section, or emphasis on the methods available to help them attempt to overcome their fear of vaginal childbirth. Preliminary Swedish and Finnish reports demonstrated the results of treatment during pregnancy, when more than half of the women withdrew their request after being able to discuss their anxiety and fear and vaginal deliveries after treatment were successful.[citation needed]

Psychological disorder

In 2000, an article published in the British Journal of Psychiatry (2000, 176: 83-85) described the fear of childbirth as a psychological disorder, when it had previously received little to no attention as such, in addition to introducing the term tokophobia (from the Greek tokos, meaning childbirth and phobos, meaning fear).

Other terms for the condition include tocophobia and parturiphobia.

Phobia of childbirth, as with any phobia, can manifest through a number of symptoms including nightmares, difficulty in concentrating on work or on family activities, panic attacks and psychosomatic complaints. Often the fear of childbirth motivates a request for an elective caesarean section. Fear of labor pain is strongly associated with the fear of pain in general; a previous complicated childbirth, or inadequate pain relief, may cause the phobia to develop.

Tokophobia is a distressing psychological disorder which may be overlooked by medical professionals; as well as specific phobia and anxiety disorders, tokophobia may be associated with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. Recognition of tokophobia and close liaison with obstetricians or other medical specialists can help to reduce the severity of tokophobia and ensure efficient treatment.

Primary and secondary tokophobia

* Primary tokophobia is the fear of childbirth which pre-dates pregnancy and can start in adolescence.
* Secondary tokophobia is due to a previous negative experience regarding traumatic birth, poor obstetric practice or medical attention, postpartum depression or other such upsetting events.

Both forms of tokophobia can be treated with the assistance of a trained medical professional or psychologist.

Seriously, an awful lot of you seem to view pregnancy as a disease...where do you get this?

mk

Lost since 1973 in the United States of Abortion:

500,000,000 toes and fingers.
100,000,000 eyes to see.
100,000,000 ears to hear.
100,000,000 hands to hold.
100,000,000 legs - never to walk or run.
50,000,000 brains to think.

Countless legacies never to be realized.

Hairs on their heads? God knows.

Yes, Abortion is satan's feeble attempt at killing God himself, for Abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand; it belongs to him......for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.

His Man - Well said.

I think this was the first film I ever watched showing the abortion procedure and aborted fetus.

Ugh. I hate abortion.

L.! I'm interested in hearing more about how the graphic videos made you pro-choice. I mean, I don't really understand how seeing the reality of abortion made the reality pregnancy seem horrific enough to justify having one.

I know that you feel very strongly that no one should have to carry a pregnancy to term, but this just seems an odd catalyst.

MK, pregnancy isn't a disease, and I can certainly say that I've never compared it to one. But I have no desire to go through with one, as I dislike the idea immensly, for a myriad of reasons. My reaction to being pregnant would be the same whether or not I was married, so it isn't "illicit sex" that's causing the problem.

Less,

According to many pro-deathers on this site pregnancy IS a disease.

And I've given you pro-deathers a catch acronym FIAT which mean Fetally Induced Autonomy Theft. Should I add Syndrome to that?

What do you call aging?

HisMan, your posts are innane at best, and you ignore every post addressed to yours that might possibly prove you wrong.

What do I call aging? Unfortunate, but it can't be helped.

I dislike the idea of being pregnant for my own reasons; they have nothing to do with the possible child. I like children, in fact.

His Man,if your posts are insane then I must be too,because I follow all of them.I also love to read them!

Amen to your post Lauren! Ever watched a baby story,L? Yes,there is pain in childbirth,but there are also plenty of medications to control pain.You say that you've had an abortion?I think for you it was just easier to flip to the choice side, so getting what YOU wanted seemed easier!! Sorry,I'm not buying this fear of pregnancy balogna.Aren't you more afraid of having an abortion? You are entering a death mill.Some women that allow these quacks to perform the operation on them,don't come out alive.

PS-Speaking of pain,I've read over and over again about women who've experienced terrible pain having abortions.Some claim they were held down by the staff.Many were told to "SHUT UP"by abortionists and clinic nurses.Very young girls said that they were molested by abortionists.Sounds about right.I've been through child birth twice before and everyone was nice and kind to me.

Momof3, when my wife had her abortions, it was the same Ob/gyn who delivered our daughters. It was a very kind and supportive situation. No one told her to Shut UP or held her down. No one molested her. I wish every abortion provider was so upright and decent. I'm sure some are not, but I'm hopeful that most are.

Less:

You call my posts innane and then answer my questions. That must mean your a polite pro-deather?

Let me draw a picture: Becoming pregnant and aging are similar because neither happens apart from involuntary bodily function by degree but both require God's participation or execution of His will.

So if pro-deathers call pregnancy a disease or treat it as such, what is aging?

Hal,did you brow beat your wife into that abortion? I'll bet you did!!

Hal,Who loves abortion? WOMEN?-NO BABIES?-NO IRRESPONSIBLE MEN? BINGO!!!

Hal,Nobody told her to shut up.Nobody held her down. You said abortionsssss? Did anyone help talk her into having those abortions or is she just naturally self absorbed?

Momof3, I said innane, not insane. I am not afraid of being pregnant, I simply have no wish to be. For that reason, I take every possible precaution.

HisMan: If you specifically address me, I do answer, as I know how annoying it is for posts to go unanswered. Do unto others, and all that. Aging, as far as I'm aware, is involuntary and unstoppable. Pregnancy, not so much. As I don't believe in God's will, that argument is void. As I said, pregnancy is not a disease: for me, pregnancy would be an unfortunate condition, but it would not be a disease.

Sorry Less.

I heard about a girl in my high school years ago who originally planned to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term, until she went to the library and looked at medical texts with graphic pictures of fetal development (this was before the Internet). She said she hadn`t realized how tiny and and undeveloped an embryo is, and decided she had no qualms about aborting one.

Lauren, the majority of abortions are performed on an embryo that is around 6-8 weeks along, as far as I've been informed.

I miscarried my fourth baby a couple of months ago. He or she died at 6 weeks gestation,....and I took pictures of the baby, so that I would never forget. I think "undeveloped" is hardly the way to describe my baby, who already had fingers, toes, eyes, ears, mouth, tongue, and a heart. The reason I miscarried was because my baby's brain was developing abnormally, so you may notice that the head looks different than a normal unborn baby's head at that stage.

Click here to see one picture of Blessing

I wanted to show you this picture so that you can know and understand that it's a lie that they are extremely undeveloped and non human looking by the time abortions happen in the first trimester. Even if they were, it wouldn't matter because they still are a unique human being who only has to have time and nurture to grow. A baby isn't any less human than a toddler just beacuse it doesn't look the same, and doesn't have the same abilities and hasn't developed to the same degree. Neither is a fetus or an embryo less human because they are in a different stage of development.

Also, click here to see the hands closeup

Bethany, I'm so sorry for your loss.

I actually wasn't the person who told the story about the abortive highschooler. That was "L." sorry for any confusion about that.

God bless,

Lauren

Yes, Momof3, abortionssss. Two to be exact. one before we had children, and one after our two girls were born. I didn't talk her in to either one, and don't recall either one was even my idea. Although I'm sure we discussed it. Nor do I consider myself "irresponsible."

I don't want to share my whole life on this page, but the first one was like many young couples, we were just not ready to be parents (but, yes, we were ready to have sex. I know, "irresponsible") We delayed starting our family. We had no regrets.

The second abortion was more complicated. Maybe in the eyes of some we had a better reason, but I'm sure not for the folks here. Anyway, again no regrets.

Oh I'm sorry Lauren :) I don't know why I confused your name...I know you are pro-life. My mind's not all there today lol

That's ok Bethany. L. & I came onto the scene here about the same time so I can see how it would be easy to get us confused :).

Your pictures are amazing. I don't know if I would have been strong enough to take pictures if I were in your situation. I hope seeing your child brought you peace.

Your pictures are amazing. I don't know if I would have been strong enough to take pictures if I were in your situation. I hope seeing your child brought you peace.

Lauren, you would be amazed at how hard I took it when I found out the baby had died in my womb. I cried uncontrollably for a long time. I had a week to think and ponder about this, and wonder if the doctors were wrong, before the baby naturally miscarried.

It's the most incredible thing....after having wept every day that week, when the miscarriage happened, actually SEEING my baby, somehow made all the difference in my grieving. I had a sense of closure and peace after seeing the baby, and knowing 100 percent that it WAS actually God's will for this to happen, and seeing His miraculous design in my baby, I knew that there was a reason for it all, even though I couldn't see it at that time. I know within my heart that God created my little baby, even at that tender of an age, for a purpose. Maybe that purpose is to educate people about how beautiful life is in the womb, even by the time most women JUST HAVE REALIZED they are pregnant! (I figured it out by 2 weeks because I always test too early - did it with all my pregnancies-, so I had already known for a month that I was pregnant when it happened).
I hope that by others seeing my baby, there will at least be maybe 1 woman who realizes how amazing life is in the womb, and will reconsider their views on abortion, or if they are wanting one, they will reconsider.
That is my hope.

You can read more about the miscarriage at my blog, under the category of Pregnancy Loss.
(click on my name to get to the blog)

By the way, nice to meet you, Lauren!

Bethany, sorry for your loss. Not everyone has the same reaction to a similar loss -- many years ago,　I lost my first pregnancy at home at 7 weeks gestation, and it did not occur to me to photograph the embryo before I disposed of it. I was very relieved and happy that I was no longer pregnant, because I hadn`t wanted to be n the first place (though I did nothing to cause the miscarriage). However, I know my experience was not everyone`s and therefore I would never tell you or anyone that you shouldn`t have grieved, in whatever way yo chose to do so. I`m glad you found some peace and closure.

Momof3, I`ve never had an abortion, and I hope I never do. MK, it`s not so much the pregnancy I fear as it is another c-section, and I think it`s perfectly rational for someone to dread major surgery, with all the pain and risks inherent therein. I do love all those pregnancy phobia names, though -- thanks.

Nice to meet you as well Bethany.

Bethany, read your post about the miscarriage. I'm so sorry. It...made my eyes water. I'm glad you found closure.

*hugs to Bethany*

I am also happy that you were able to come to grips with your miscarriage and find closure.

I really wish you the best of luck in trying to conceive again. You seem so happy as a mother. :)

(Gonna ask us for help for baby names in the future?)

:D

Thank you all so much for your kind words!
I appreciate that all of you have been so sweet in your replies. (((hugs)))

Alyssa, I'll be glad to ask for any names in the future lol ...It's almost impossible to get my hubby to agree with any names, and I'd love to get some new ones to suggest to him. :D
haha

PrettyinPink, I visited your blog today...you're really pretty! And so much younger than I thought!

L, thank you...I'm so sorry for your loss!

Thanks Bethany :)

I also look pretty young in general. Last year I was carded at a movie theatre!
How young did you think I was?

Bethany:

I'd be willing to help out pick babynames as well. It was one of the things I enjoyed most about when my baby brother was born. :)

I am also sorry for your loss. I don't understand what it's like to have a miscarriage, but I am very sorry you had to go through that. :(

PiP: I took a peek at your blog as well, and I am diggin' the nose ring. I had my nose pierced in January, but I have more or less quit wearing it because it annoyed me...I'd scratch my nose and pick at the stud because it felt like a zit!

Thanks Rae! I just got it pierced today. Everytime I read I feel crosseyed b/c I"m not used to it being there. And it's still a little sore.
But I'm really excited! I think it looks cool. I wonder what my mom would say XD

Haha, Bethany, why doesn't he agree with names? Is he like my boyfriend who says he wants to name a kid something ridiculous? :P

Men are goofy sometimes.

And honestly, if you're the one who's pregnant for nine months, the least you can have is the privilege of naming your baby. (I don't mean that in a negative, anti-man matter. Just being sincere in the thought that women, who are given the ability to bond during their pregnancies, would be the most qualified to name any babies. :D)

But all of us women are more than ready to help out with baby names. I already have names picked out for any (FUTURE!) kids of mine. Gotta get outta college and get a good career going first before any babies arrive on the scene.

:P

My mom thought it was cute (she liked it better than my tattoos), my grandparents all had hissy-fits about it. "You have two tattoos, now this!? Why!? we thought you were going to be such a good little girl!"

Fortunately I wear it every few days for a bit just to keep the hole there so I can wear the nose ring if I feel like it.

Jah, I remember it hurt pretty bad getting my nose pierced, but I just kept telling myself "the tattoos hurt more!"

Haha, I don't think it hurt much more than my bellybutton peircing, it just made my eyes water, and at least there is a MUCH shorter healing time.

I plan on getting two tattoos--I have them all picked out. I am spreading out these things over my college career--one per year I guess.

I thought mom would kill me when she saw my bellybutton ring--she found out 6 months after the piercing--but she didn't. However, this one isn't so easily hidden ;)

I designed a tattoo for myself and I want a belly button piercing, and maybe another ear piercing. Otherwise I just have three ear piercings. :P

Alyssa, I have three in one ear, two in the other. I sorta want to get the cartilage pierced...but I sorta don't. I have to think about it..

what kind of tattoo?

Alyssa, I have three in one ear, two in the other. I sorta want to get the cartilage pierced...but I sorta don't. I have to think about it..

what kind of tattoo?

I have a henna-style flower tattoo on my back that's really, really bright colored (bright pink, orange and green with really thick black lines). I also have a blue-green-purple DNA strand around my ankle.

I also have two piercing per ear. I was going to get my tragus pierced on my ears, but I decided not to because of the psoriasis in my ears.

whoops, excuse the double post.

Doesn't that really hurt?

Does what really hurt? The piercings or the tattoos?

Prettyinpink, I know you have to be older, but I would say you look about 15!

Alyssa, yes, he thinks of some of the goofiest names I have ever heard. I wish I could remember some of them right now. Oh wait, I remember one...and he was totally serious-

"Jimmy Remy"

No kidding!

The tragus!

the tattoos didn't hurt that bad did they? One of mine is going to be kinda ornate..

Ohmygoodness I'm watching this show on animal planet--rescued baby animals from the wild!! Sooo adorable!

A black unicorn...I'm a huge unicorn fan...have figurines and stuff all over. I figure the unicorn part is feminine and the fact that it's black makes the idea a little less... wimpy? Would that be the right word?

Bethany--I'm almost 20. I would look younger if I weighed a little less and didn't have those bags under my eyes! ;)

That's exciting.

One of mine I want to get is a traditional chinese tiger..and in the body, as the stripes, is the chinese symbol for strength.

PiP: Yes, I heard tragus piercings hurt pretty bad.

My ankle tattoo wasn't too bad (though it swelled up pretty bad that night and itched like crazy as it peeled/healed). The back one hurt really bad because it took 3 and a half hours because it was pretty large. Though it's totally worth it. :)

What are you planning on getting?

Hahaha, Bethany, you'd be right to hold onto your child-naming privileges. Especially if you don't want kids growing up to resent their names
*solemnly swears to name her kids something unique, but not so unique and odd that they get made fun of*

did you hear about those people who named their son "ESPN", as in the TV channel? *sigh*

The tiger one on my back, and I thought I'd get one of those ribbons (you know, like pink for breast cancer), purple, either on my ankle or...somewhere else. I have to think on that one more.

I want the tattoo to be really intricate and tiny...I'm a huge HUGE fan of beautiful, intricate tattoo art, where it's as realistic as possible. Maybe I'll ask Bethany to improve upon my design (even though I inherited some of my father's artistic flair, it's a bit different and less realistic than his style. He can look at anything and draw it exactly as he sees it, perfectly. I draw almost purely from imagination, but my detail lacks because of it. So he wouldn't be able to imagine what I want and I wouldn't be able to fill in the detail myself.)

But if I were to get it, it would go on my right hip. :)

If I have kids, I want at least one boy, and his name will be "Darren".

*raises hand* I have my nose pierced and both of my ears pierced, will be getting a tattoo in the next month, and fully plan to get a piercing/tattoo for each and every happy/major event in my life.

Man, my ears hurt so much more than did my nose. My nose bled a lot, but it didn't hurt. It hurt when I snagged it on my watch (my dad decided it was a sign from God and I needed to get it taken out, haha), but that's the only time that it really hurt.

Hehe, we all know where you get that from...

As in, you want a reason to name him "Darren Hayes, Jr"?

Lol

tell Less, what kind of tattoo?

Alyssa: Why of course! I like to think it would be a great honor to be named after the glorious wonder that is Darren Hayes. :)

His new song that's gonna be on his new CD is sooooo beautiful...

I want at least two little girls because I've fallen in love with two names. :P

Rae: I was thinking you could just work around the obvious obstacles (him being hitched, is he not?) and get yourself married, then have a boy baby to name after him. *giggle*

PiP: On my left shoulder I want the poem "The Garden of Love" by William Blake tattooed in dark brown. Between my shoulder blades I want several Tarot archetypes: The World, Strength, Temperance, the High Priestess, and Justice. I have a way I want the placed and a deck I'm working from, and I'm really, really, excited.

I also want other piercings. I'm really excited!

Alyssa: He is indeed hitched and he's not exactly *ahem* attracted to women. But a las, that is not a problem for me as he still makes glorious music. :)

Interesting tattoo choices, Less! Can I ask why so?

PiP: I love love love William Blake, and that's my favorite poem of his and it has a lot of personal meaning. As for the Tarot cards, those particular archetypes have traits that I would like to embody. The way those cards are combined, they imply a certain amount of balance, something I find quite beautiful.

Less, very nice! I'm glad the tattoos mean a lot to you.

PiP, yeah, I wouldn't want to get something permanently etched onto my skin if it didn't mean something. :P I know so many people who have done that and have regreted it SO much. It makes me sad for them, but I've learned from that mistake.

*raises hand, too, enjoying the glimpse into your minds but having a few questions*

What is a tragus?

Alyssa, which girls' names do you have picked out?

Less, what is the poem, "The Garden of Love"?

Hal,

If I remember from previous posts, you and your wife aborted two children and you now have two children.

Seems to me you are tortured by that, no, I know you are tortured by that. You do have a conscience. I can see it between the lines of your posts.

What did the shrink say? Confront the fear? You're wasting your money. Fire the false prophet.

Go to Jesus Christ, confess, repent and admit what you and your wife did was murder. Admit that what you allowed your wife to do was cowardly. Then and only then will you be released from your prison of guilt and your conscience be made clear. Then you will begin your journey to becoming a real man, i.e, becoming Christlike.

I've been there, done that, so the advice I give is rock solid truth.

Less,

You said: "On my left shoulder I want the poem "The Garden of Love" by William Blake tattooed in dark brown. Between my shoulder blades I want several Tarot archetypes: The World, Strength, Temperance, the High Priestess, and Justice. I have a way I want the placed and a deck I'm working from, and I'm really, really, excited."

Jill, to answer your question, here's William Blake's Garden of Love Poem:
"I went to the Garden of Love,
And saw what I never had seen:
A Chapel was built in the midst,
Where I used to play on the green.

And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
And "Thou shalt not" writ over the door;
So I turned to the Garden of Love,
That so many sweet flowers bore;

And I saw it was filled with graves,
And tombstones where flowers should be;
And Priests in black gowns were walking their rounds,
And binding with briers my joys and desires."

Whoa! If that's not a total rejection of God, I don't know what is. This guy probably had his first sexual experience "in the green" where now a chapel was built with a cemetary on the same site. All he could see was a God who wanted death and destruction replaced by "Where I used to play on the green."

Less, your desires are the practice of witchcraft and evidence of a Jezebel spirit within you. It is not surprising you are pro-death and extremely deceived. Repentance is the only answer. Or will you allow satan to kill, steal, and destroy your destiny?

Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [Or who makes his son or daughter pass through] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

2 Kings 9:22
When Joram saw Jehu he asked, "Have you come in peace, Jehu?" "How can there be peace," Jehu replied, "as long as all the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother Jezebel abound?"

2 Chronicles 33:6
He sacrificed his sons in [Or He made his sons pass through] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

Micah 5:12
I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.

Nahum 3:4
all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.

Galatians 5:19-21
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Also Less, you post is evidence of what I have said about pro-deathers all along: "They reject anyone or anything in authority that would tell them how to live including God Himself and it's generally masked in the facade of women's rights. Which when you analyze it, is a very parasitical way of thinking. I mean, they kill unborn baby woman too don't they? How dare they use the issue of abortion to bolster their sense of self-hood. Again, the perverted, twisted and demented logic shows its ugly head from every angle of the looking glass. Ah, but they see in a mirror darkly? No, the light's off."

Hal,I'd like to second what His Man said.Great advice! Getting honest helps cleasne the soul.I know of many women who have repented from their abortions,and no longer support abortion.They allowed the Lord to set them free.The problem with you is that you continue to condone and support abortion.Please Hal,don't continue to do this.

HisMan, thanks for the words to "Garden of Love."

It makes perfect sense that Less would want that poem tattooed on her (although it seems a tad long for a shoulder).

I've told Less before she abandoned the God of the Bible solely for the god of sex.

My girls' names? Emerson Leigh and Riley Jo. But I have other names in mind...that I really really really like. Might have to have more babies to fill in those names!! :D

How can any of you call yourself Christian with such hate in your hearts? I posted what tattoos I wanted and you jump from that to my religion? I want the poem tattooed on me because, as I said, it has personal meaning. HisMan, I�m an English major: I can read that poem and discover a myriad of reasons, none of them rejecting God. The most likely of those meanings, based upon Blake�s personal experiences, would be a lament that sexuality was taken and perverted into something dirty at the hands of the church. He lived in the 1700s; things were far different then than now. I see them going back to that, and worry. For that reason, I want the poem.

You know what, HisMan, I don�t care if you don�t like the fact that I practice divination. I never asked you to �save my soul� or anything along those lines, and have no desire to be �saved� if it is anything close to what you�re espousing. And you�re partially right: I loathe being told how to live, as it is none of anyone else�s concern. I live a good life, filled with happiness and no regrets, and go out of my way to help others. If your God wants to condemn me for that, that�s fine: I would never worship a God that would concern himself with everything from who I sleep with to what I eat to where I get myself pierced. If he wants to cast me down into hell, at least I�ll have plenty of company.

I abandoned the God of the Bible for reasons I have posted MYRIADS of times. I dislike the racist, sexist, homophobic, and violent tendencies of the Bible, and refuse to see something as holy. I�ve already made a VERY detailed post on this that you, HisMan, never responded to. I am very comfortable with my beliefs, and have no desire to �repent.�

Jill: The tragus is a part of your ear.

Here is a picture of a tragus piercing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragus_piercing

Why is it that some of you cannot seem to have a civilized discussion?
It's nice to see when you all talk about something that has nothing to do with abortion. And then His Man comes in here and drags it back.
Why are you so obsessed? You just HAD to look up the words of the poem and then tear Less a part.
I myself am a Christian, and am disgusted with how you treat other people.

Rae, ah, ok, thanks for the link.

Jill: The tragus is a part of your ear.
Here is a picture of a tragus piercing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragus_piercing

OUCH.

Bethany, apparently it feels like a punch to the head. Now, I'm a black belt, thus I well know what a punch to the head feels like. I should be going sometime in the next few weeks to get the piercing done; I'll let you know how badly it hurts. :P

lol better you than me! ;)

Haha, Bethany, fair enough. My plan o' piercing includes far more sensitive areas than my ears, so I'll consider it a test! :P

When my son was about 19 he came home from college for Christmas with his lip pierced. I knew if I lit into him, he'd probably get his eyebrow pierced too.

Most of you have heard that my 80 year old father is in a Terri Schiavo state, and pretty much just sits whereever you put him.

My daughter was one or two at the time.

So I went to Walmart and purchased a bunch of those fake pierced earrings?

I put one in my fathers lip. Put one on my one year old daughter. Gave one to my 75 year old mother and wore one myself.

Well, when he got to Grandmas house on Christmas Eve, and saw that we all had "pierced" lips too...
you get the pic.

He never wore the lip ring again. Of course to this day he claims it's because it got infected.
Okay, Tom, whatever you say...
LOL
MK

Hehehe, my parents freaked out when I had my nose pierced, and are very sad about the idea that I might get more piercings. Fortunately, I'm moving in with my fiance halfway through this summer, and he's all for the piercings! So I'm not too worried.

Lol, can't even imagine what my mom will do when she sees my new nose piercing.

She'll probably make her "disappointed" face. I can imitate it quite nicely.

Hehehe. My mom did the disappointed voice until I pointed out that I could have pierced more dubious places. : P My dad did the disappointed face, though. I wouldn't have told him, as he's colorblind so he wouldn't have noticed, but he might have seen the odd shadow and tried to poke it, hehe.

lol! At least now it's not like I need permission anymore, either. I can use my money to do what I want with it!

Peace people

We love you

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