I can dredge-up 1000 gay discrimination cases for each forceful-gay-agenda case you can provide.

Don't you have anything current either???

Poor christians... can't seem to get their story straight even on the same blog post one paragraph they're winning and in the next we're about to throw em to the lions.

I would assume that the purpose of the "lesbian" assignment was that she would gain an understanding of the pressures placed on lesbians by society that would aid her in empathizing with them as a social worker. I respect Emily's personal preference as well as the fact that the faculty were unduly hostile toward her, but I do believe that it is dangerous to have people in a public service who are opposed to a group of people based on their natural characteristics. Doing so would be akin to having racists on the police force; it results in unjust advancement of a personal agenda.

At my church I was told to write to my congressman to protest a bill that would allow benefits to domestic partners at my university.

Doors always swing both ways.

Why do people get so uptight when you have faith? This seems to be the case more and more. Before I accepted faith, I tried to run my own life all the time. It was always bad. I felt like I was bashing my head into a brick wall. I couldn't relax. Now,I ask God to help me. Life always goes so much easier. I still worry. I am only human, but God carries the load. All is possible through him.I could never say or understand this years ago. God bless this young lady for taking a stand.It paid off.You don't have to accept defeat. The enemy loves it when we do!

Momof3, we don't get uptight when you have faith: we get uptight when you force that faith onto others.

It’s interesting that this never went to judge, and understandable why they both agreed to settle out of court. No one was entirely in the right or wrong. Brooker’s suite was flawed, and the fact that the prof tried to use the student like that was wrong.
Brooker’s autorney and the Alliance Defense Fund made this into a religious freedom case, and it wouldn’t have withstood judicial scrutiny on that merit. However, this was a case in which every student in the class was affected by a bad prof, Christian or otherwise. The prof was demanding public advocacy... and that, regardless of what they were being forced to advocate, is not really a freedom of religion problem. Her unfair scores were not a result of her spirituality but her unwillingness to be used as a political advocacy tool. I suspect the professor was having other troubles with her as well, and probably just lost his cool... none the less... stupid professor.
Me thinks they settled out of court because the defense was having trouble crafting a legitimate argument, and because the University recognized they would be found to be at fault to some degree, and drawing out the legal battle would only end up costing more.
Victory for Christians v. gays... excepting sensationalistic evangelicals foolishly engaged in their never ending quest to make a pariah of all that is non-Christian... not really.... it’s a victory for students

A girl at my college wrote an editorial about her outrage that she had to visit a Hustler store as part of an assignment for a Women's Studies class. My feelings-get over it- you signed up for this class on your own, you knew if was a Women's Studies class that would fall on the liberal side of the spectrum, you undoubtedly received a syllabus at the beginning of the semester detailing that you would have to complete this assignment, you could have dropped the class then and there but you didn't, so you have no one to blame but yourself for your "woes"

Alright I have a few cents (not just two you might get three today!) To put in here.
1. She is a social work major, part of her major might deal with that kind of social work. If she can't do then she needs to find another major.
2. Her professor probably wanted her to act like a lesbian so she could write about how lesbians feel in public, if she was honestly unhappy with it she should have talked to her professor in private. She got a syllabus at the beginning of the year, she knew she would have to do it.
3. I do not think she should have been slapped with such a grievance but possibly a failing grade for the course and a reminder that if she wanted to be in social work she might have to deal with those things. If she could not then she needs to find a new major.

I dont think students should have to participate in assignments that really conflict with their religious values. It doesnt prepare someone for something that they are going to have to face professionally; most people dont choose professions that oppose their morals. At my university, the specialized upper level classes that are required for degree completion are most often taught by one professor. Education does not require the conformation of personal integrity.

JK,

Forcing your bad religion on someone are you?

Don't be hypocritial now.

I would absolutely disagree, Samantha. Religious views are going to be challenged in the real world, that's simply how it is. Students might not choose professions that disagree with their morals, but they don't choose the people they work with. People can challenge someone's religious views as much as situations, and people need to be prepared for that. Education does not require the conformation of personal intergrity, you are correct, but it does require that one is able to adequately defend it: to do that, one must first have thought about one's beliefs.

Cameron,

The point is: Stand.

Stand against the likes of you and all your pro-death bretheren.

We will win this battle against death.

If you choose, join us.

Well said SamanthaT.

SamanthaT
If she was taking classes that needed her to do these things (and remember the final problem was in one class but she speaks of a few classes) then odds are the field she was choosing to go into would have alot to do with those assignments.

On that note the professor was wrong to REQUIRE anyone to write a letter to congress based on his beliefs. Like I always say, no one should force their beliefs on anyone else.

Less,

And what do you do when you force legalized abortion on a society where the majority thinks it's murder?

That sounds like tyranny to me and that by faithful pro-deathers.

HisMan, if you dislike abortion, you're invited to not get one. I'm not going to go around forcing you to have abortion: if you were female and pregnant, I wouldn't go around forcing abortions upon you. I simply want the choice available, as I have told you a multiplicity of times.

HisMan
The thing is no one is forcing anyone to GET an abortion.
Let me put it this way...and I dont actually believe this...
I think that Religion should be illegal. But no one is FORCING it on me er go it doesnt hurt me and should remain legal. My personal views have nothing to do with whether or not religion actually is bad

I love how a blog about ABORTION turned in to an excuse for completely unrelated gay bashing.

*eyeroll*

To those that say she could have dropped the class, I just want to point out it's quite possible that the class was required for her major.

I really liked Cameron's analysis of the situation btw. I don't think it's okay for students to be required to advocate for a specific, assigned political cause, no matter how noble the cause may be. However students should learn to hear and respect other perspectives b/c it is something that will prepare them for life after college.

JAJ
I agree BUT Like I said if that class (and others like it obviously) was required for her major, and she cannot do the necessary assignments (pretending to be lesbian) then she probably needs to change her major

"I love how a blog about ABORTION turned in to an excuse for completely unrelated gay bashing.

*eyeroll*"

Well of course Amanda, only pro-deathers are pro-homosexual and therefore anti-God and all that is holy. Heaven forbid we accept people who are different from ourselves and that are demonized my "Christians" simply because of the people they love.

Amanda,

No, it seems to me this was about Christian bashing and how one young, courageous woman took a stand. Don't see many of you moral stalwarts standing up for a fellow female.

Why should I expect anything different than you to be anti-Christian but pro-death and pro-homosexual?

No, you see the article through the eyes of your own prejudice, your prejudice against Christianity because to you Chritianity is a threat to your license to sin.

No gay bashing was done here. Just demonstrating a principle that the majority of pro-lifers need to take a stand. When we do, abortion will be defeated.

Maybe my next post will be on my total disrepsect for heterosexual men who abandon women. God forbid I should say that homosexuals do anything wrong.

I'll call that wimp bashing. Would that be OK?

Mars, I agree that a social worker probably will have to deal with a homosexual. What I disagree with is the professor's forcing a student to assume the position of a gay person or gay-rights supporter. I think that having a lesbian express her personal experience to the class would have been more effective and less controversial than trying to force a heterosexual woman to pretend to be homosexual.

Less, I also agree with you when you say that religious views are going to be challenged. Of course they are going to be; however, discriminating against a potential employee because he is Jewish is essentially the same as failing someone who is heterosexual. If I had gotten the message from the article that the girl had openly opposed any homosexual activity at all, I would say that she needs to broaden her views if she wants to work with the public. Since I understood only that she was not willing to take on a homosexual persona herself, I dont see a problem with her position. It is much akin to the pro-choice, anti-abortion position that many people on this blog have taken.

If this situation were reversed and a professor was forcing a gay student to pretend to be straight, I do not doubt that there would be an outcry against him. I dont see why a heterosexual female shouldnt be given the same support.

I'm all for civil liberties and for this woman to get an education on her own terms within the university system, your entire post and attitude is tainted by your hatred of homosexuality.

HisMan, we may agree on something...
Go ahead and wimp bash all you want, i will be right there with you

But I dont think that this girl stood up for her beliefs. Yes the prof was dumb and should not have had his students doing that. BUT she had shown that she couldnt even complete an assignemt to just PRETEND to be lesbian. All she would have to do is hold hands with a friend while they went out to dinner. I hold hands with friends all the time. Just because her professor wanted her to act lesbian didn't mean he wanted her to BE lesbian or to condone lesbians. He wanted her to see life from that point of view.

Say my professor asked me to go to church and pretend to believe in God for a paper. Do you think I should have to do that assignment?

His Man: Why do you have such an issue with homosexuals? What have homosexuals ever done to you?

"I hold hands with friends all the time. Just because her professor wanted her to act lesbian didn't mean he wanted her to BE lesbian or to condone lesbians. He wanted her to see life from that point of view."

For my Early Christian History class a while back, I had to go to an Eastern Orthodox church for a service. I'm not Orthodox, I'm not Christian, and I don't believe in God. And yet I had no problems with going. Why? Because it was an opportunity to learn about how other people live and see the world

"No, you see the article through the eyes of your own prejudice, your prejudice against Christianity"

See, now I think thats funny, because a Christian does not judge, he leaves that to God. A christian says I disagree, and by my beliefs you could end up in hell, but its up to you what you want to do. A christian doesnt single out a group of people and call them sinful and tell them that they are all going to hell when that may or may not be true. It is left to God to decide. It is an act that is not illgeal and really doesnt concern you in anyway to begin with. It is a situation that should be live and let live.

"because to you Chritianity is a threat to your license to sin."

Now thats just funny because everyone sins, and there are sins that arent illegal. So really, Christianity does nothing to stop sin, as a major premise of the religion is that man kind is flawed and sinful.

*I dont think she stood up for her beliefs for the right reasons...if she is anti gay then she probably shouldnt be going into public service*

Samantha, from what I understand, she didn't complete her coursework. Now, the professor was wrong in assigning the work, but she was failed because she didn't complete the class. Furthermore, the article gives only minimal information: we simply don't know the whole story.

The assignment of pretending to be a lesbian seems very similar to the third grade teacher, back in the days of segregation, who told students that blue-eyed people were inherently inferior to those with brown eyes, and wouldn't be able to have recess. It's a way of gaining sympathy for the other side. That's not to say that I agree with it, but I can see the perspective.

Less:
In one of my teaching classes we watched a video of that teacher. she was AMAZING and they do the same thing at that school to this day.
Parents used to beg for their kids to be in that class...even though racism was still very prevalent. Seems the educated classes understood prejudice against people for something they cant control is stupid.

she did alot of stuff though too. Like the blue eyed kids didnt get snacks, they could only go to the bathroom at certain times, they got introuble for everything and they brown eyes didnt get in trouble for anything. then she switched it after two days so everyone could feel like that.

Mars, I read an article in the Smithsonian about the teacher. At first, parents were VERY angry about it, but as time went on, you're right: parents would beg to be in the class.

i hope i can instill acceptance for EVERYONE in my future classroom too

"Have that beautiful baby now growing inside your bosom."

Methinks HisMan needs a biology lesson about where babies grow. :-P Oh wait... They probably don't teach that in abstinence only programs because you know the word uterus might get the guys and girls all hot and bothered.

(Sorry for the heavy sarcasm. Astronomy is kicking m butt and I'm a bit cranky.)

Ladies, that teacher is super amazing. =)

Mars, assuming you were assigned to go to a church service and pretend to believe in God, if you are atheist or Buddhist you may not have a problem with that. However, if you are Muslim, you would probably have a strict personal rule against participating in the worship of a person that your religion says is not worthy of such reverence. A Muslim student can learn about Christianity and be empathetic without having to sin. Its the same thing with some Christians and homosexuality. If she were refusing to participate in a triple bypass example in med school, I would understand the problem. But pretending to be gay is not absolutely necessary to successful social work, and if she has a legitimate reason to not take the assignment, she should be provided with an equal alternative. My professors have to constantly rework their syllabi in order to accommodate such problems in a secular university system; its just part of teaching a multi-cultural student body.

"As a freshman, she was assigned to openly display "lesbian behavior" in public and then write about her experiences!"

Sounds fun. I did something similar for a drama class in high school. We had to dress a certain way for school and record the reactions that we got.

There was also an assignment (same drama class) where we had to people watch in the mall and create a character from the people we observed.

This girl could never go into acting.

Allah and the God of the Christian religion are one in the same.

They simply say Jesus was a pretty cool guy with good ideas but wasnt the messiah.

It wouldnt really be praying to God theyd have an issue with, they may just have issues with things involving jesus, but its pretending to pray to Jesus, so really no sinning would be involved as they wouldnt actually be doing it

So if I should stick to my guns, should I also protest the face that they force us to read the bible here at my college? You can't graduate without taking Hum I and II and it's part of the curriculum.

I mean come on. While I can see why this girl might not have felt comfortable with the assignment, it was still an assignment. So every time something is morally wrong to you, you should just walk? How are you ever going to learn anything?

For example, you have to take a non-western religion course which you believe is nonsense and completely against your beliefs, should you not do the work?

At my old college a guy walked out a class because they were reading a book that had gay situations in it and he said that as a born again Christian he could "not be exposed to such things." The professor gave him a falling grade (he didn't write the essay required).

I was in my high school's production of Les Miserables. I was a sophomore. Never been kissed, never had a boyfriend and I got cast as whore #1 for the Ladies of the Night scene. Now I could have walked out and lost a role loosing the respect of one of my favorite teachers (one who helped me grow so much) or I could *act* and become a different person for a little while. Granted I was damn uncomfortable, but I was the one of three sophomores to have a part that year (even if it was a small one).

This is site needs and edit button... It should be fact not face.

Dan, I know all about the whole Isaac and Ishmael deal. However, my Muslim friend has just assured me that he would in no way take part in Holy Communion or repeating the Apostle's Creed (Im Methodist, and we say the AC every Sunday) because he does not believe that Jesus is the Savior.

No need to do either. Lip say it if you're dedicated to the class, or stay silent, no one would know otherwise, and you can stay seated for communion. People do that already, so I doubt hed be the only one

Jesus’ bo: “The point is: Stand.”

No it’s not.

Nobody is telling you to go get an abortion, to have sex with the same gender, to not beleive in your zombie jesus, and to subscribe to some other belief system. Yet you are making all this noise...

You’re point is always, unequivocally, that nobody should stand-up for what they believe in, but submit to yours like some sort of militant Iman. You can wrap yourself in the defiant-against-all-oppression flag all you want, but the bottom line is that your ideological views are oppression and intolerance incarnate.

You are just like that professor.

Today in choir was really awkward. We're singing Agnus Dei for our next concert and my professor broke down where it would be placed in mass for us. Gorgeous song (as long as you don't translate it :-x), but really unnecessary to explain mass to us. *shrug*

Danielle, being exposed to material and being forced to pretend to be a lesbian or write a letter to a senator are not the same thing. To a conservative Christian, pretending to be gay is an indirect sin. People may or may not know that 1) Emily is a Christian and 2) homosexuality is prohibited by the Christian Bible. People who see her display of affection may assume that she is in reality homosexual and therefore a sinner, and then decide that they dont want to be part of a religion that condones hypocrisy. I have seen several recent posts on here by people who claim that hypocritical Christians turned them away from the religion. The absolute worst thing a Christian can do is prevent someone else from obtaining salvation.

PS If you attend a government-funded school, it is unconstitutional for them to force you to take a course in Christianity. You can sue the school.

I'm sorry, what does this have to do with abortion? oh right. NOTHING. When Jill let you write a blog for this site, I'm sure you wanted to you to write aobut abortion, not to let get on your soapbox aobut your values.

And Samantha, it's not the fact that she was christian that made her against homosexuality, it was her own prejudices. In fact the Catholic Catechism states that "Men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies . . . must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."

And besides, Gay people are Christian too, take me for example, I'm Bisexual and I love God and God loves me.

If this girl didn't want to do the assignment, she shouldn't have to, but she should do some alternative, like maybe observe other studnets doing the assignment, or shadow some real lesbians, like in high school biology class if you don't want to disect something. Most professors and teachers will make accomidations if there is a valid reason for it.

However this girl's story isn't a particularily fascinating one, so she stuck it to the man big fat hairy deal. people are standing up for what they believe all over the world. this instance just got more press than others did

Samantha, not if it is taught in context with other religions, is an ELECTIVE course, or is a private institution

SamanthaT,

I realize that their is a difference. Acting as a lesbian when you are straight is very intimidating. Especially if you aren't comfortable with your own sexuality or if your afraid of loved ones and friends judging you.

Also, the Hum I isn't strictly a Christianity course. It's a lit course covering major works of literature. Dante, Shakespeare, Plato, ect. But the Bible is one of them. You look at it as literature and analyze it.

Dan... Once again... I have to say... I love you... I wish more people (by that I mean fellow Christians) felt as you do... The world would be a much better place if they did! :-)

I love gay people... One of my best friends in high school was gay... He was the greatest person I knew... I miss him :-(

Constentina (pretty name btw)
THANK YOU
hisman claims that this shows that if you stick up for what you believe (in this girls case it was biggotry) that you will get what you want...which is rediculous this was just another way for him to gay bash

Mars,

But he claims to not be a homophobe. *scoffs*

I'm pretty sure everyone would love gay people if they just got to know them. I'll bet you that most of the homophobes out there have never met a gay person, or they know a gay person who won't come out to them because the person knows the other person's a homophobe

I feel sad for any person who would choose not to get to know my friend because he is gay... Anyone would be lucky to have a friend like him...

No, most people are homophobes because they are gay themselves and are far too chicken to admit it to themselves and they are in total denial. It's really sad really.

Aww Emily, I love you too, lol *hugs*

Yeah, I wish that "uber christians" would realize they arent rally acting christian.

Gay people are some of the most courageous folks that I know. It takes a lot of courage to come out to your peers and family. And it takes a lot of courage for some of them to walk through campus at night. I always get a twinge of nervousness in my stomach when ever my two (gay) friends hold hands and I think that's really sad. I hope that someday the world won't be like that anymore.

Haha, anytime Mars, anytime

It took one of my best friends over 3 years to admit that he liked men... and he still hasn't admitted it to himself completely. Right now he says he's bisexual, but favors men.

Dan-

Us "uber-Christians" are acting out of love.

Which is more loving?

"Yep, it's A-Ok to live in sin, God didn't really mean that part about abominations"

or

"God DID mean that part about abominations. We all struggle with imborn characteristics that are against God. It has been this way since the fall of man. Just because one has a predilition twoards sin does not mean one must live with this sin. When we become Christian we bury our old selves, sin and all, with Christ. We die to ourselves in order to live in Him. Yes, we must accept that we are all sinners and repent, but we gain so much more. Repent, bury the dead parts of yourself, and rise and walk with Christ!"

If you are truly Christian, you must see the second as more loving. As Christians we are called to lead our breathren to Christ. Indeed, this is our Great Commission. If we proclaim false teachings that cause our brothers and sisters to fall, we are doubly guilty. It is loving to sound the Word of God throughout the land. The *whole* Word, not just the parts that are inoffensive.

"JK,

Forcing your bad religion on someone are you?

Don't be hypocritial now."

I'm sorry HisMan, are you drunk? Where did I indicate I was forcing my religion on anyone? I wasn't even speaking of religion or in religious rantings. Your post makes absolutely no sense. I suggest aspirin and a strong pot of coffee.

Actually, if you really want to know, my religion is Christianity, the same (so you say) as yours. Isn't your entire life goal to shove Christianity down everyone's throats? Speak of hypocrisy.

coming out must be incredibly difficult.
my friend came out my freshman year here. I think he was put off because everyone was like...yeah we know, whatever, and we went about our business. I think he wanted us to be like oh wow we support you we love you...but we had all known for so long....

I don't know Lauren, didn't god make humans in his image? God made me... does that mean that god is Bi?

Also:

We are NOT called to attack anyone living in sin. We are called to lead them to repentance. It is true that Christ walked amongst those who had sinned, but He compelled them to cast off their former lives before joining Him. We must act as Christ in this regard. We must reach out to people where they are, and draw them close to God.

Spewing hate is not the way to do this. Truth, however, is not hate.

Yeah my friend in high school claimed he was bi when we first met... Till I noticed he NEVER talked about any girls he liked...

Laruen,

Can you help me with these:

"When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly rejects it...End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them:

1.) Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2.) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3.) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness, Leviticus 15: 19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4.) When I burn a bull on the alter as a sacrafice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord- Leviticus 1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5.) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6.) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination-Leviticus 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?

7.) Leviticus 21:10 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8.) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

9.) I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10.) My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?-Leviticus 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws-Leviticus 20:14,?

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging."

Thanks.

(Disclaimer: I didn't write the above.)

Cammeron, you've read Genesis havn't you?

Man was made in God's image.

Man fell from Grace and into Sin.

We are made in the image of the fallen Man.

See: Adam and Eve, Forbidden Fruit, Seth.

Lauren, we arent supposed to force our faith on others as i said.

Tell them you are against what they are doing and that you see it as a sin and that they could go to hell.

From there its up to them and between them and god.

Yes He called to them to repent... But if they didn't He didn't FORCE them to...

Constentina - Thank you for pointing out that Catholics do not believe in gay bashing.

_____________

I do not believe this post was about gay bashing though. It was about standing up for what you believe in.

HisMan is a religious person so this story would stick out for him. If I were to tell a story about standing up for oneself I would probably talk about my personal belief's and animal cruelty. I am a Veterinary Technician specializing in surgical procedures (On hiatus to be a mom so I'm a bit behind now) However I refused to assist in ear crops and tail docks because I believe that to be animal cruelty. Should I not have fulfilled my dreams because of this? Or should I have stood up for my belief's and worked with the Vet's so we could all be happy? Quess which one I chose? It is unfair for some here to say that she should choose another profession. Just because she doesn't want to act gay, or sign a petition in support of Gay adoption doesn't mean she is a "gay basher" and would be unable to do her job. I know many people who feel the same way and they don't gay bash. I have no problems with the homosexual lifestyle, but I would be extrememly uncomfortable pretending to be gay in public. It just isn't me. I am not sexually surpressed by any means.

And this post has alot to do with what is going on today. The Pro-Life side has stood strong and held their ground for over 30 years. We have always been against PBA and now it is illegal. All because we stayed strong in the face of adversity. I think this post is completely appropriate for today.

okay - lets start with the Valerie bashing...I'm ready!

And Samantha - Have I told you that I'm glad you were able to log on here again! ;-)

Danielle I've read that before and you are awesome for posting it!

But original Sin was Sex between a man and a woman...

Does that mean heterosexual relationships are sinful too?

(yes I'm aware I'm poking holes in my own religion)

"We have always been against PBA and now it is illegal."

Congrats, you made something illegal that was used to save women's lives to save non-viable fetii. Congrats. Victory. Wahoo!

FYI, original sin was not sex. Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation by Satan (the serpent) and ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. That was the first "original" sin.

Well Valerie, he could have made that connection in his blog, but he didn't and therefore it looks like he's gay bashing

For the record, the literal translation of the Leviticus verse proclaiming homosexuality as an abomination is the following:

"A man shall not with another man lying downs of woman."

Alright, all you guys out there, you'd better not "lying downs of a woman" with another man! You shall surely die!

wait, so does that mean KNOWLEDGE is sin?
should we all stay ignorant?
makes sense that religious leaders would think knowledge is bad, the more educated your followers are the more likely they are to start asking questions..

And he could have found another time where someone stood up for religion, he chose this one because he doesn't like gays. its not a secret he has said it before

Danielle -

What part of "although government lawyers and others who favor the ban said there are alternate, more widely used procedures that remain legal" do you just not understand?

What part of the AMA statement saying they could find no reason for PBA just to save the mother's life. That by all means necessary the Dr's should induce prematurely and try to save the babies life. All the while the Mother gets 1st priority treatment. Why do you not understand any of this?

Every pro-abort on here and been saying this is not biggie because of all this. Why all the hostility now?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo Galilei

Valerie,

As said before, I'm crabby, which is why I'm leaving now. I'm not even supposed to be on this board. Doctor Boyfriend's orders (might have an ulcer and stress is bad). So later!

Danielle,

The levitical laws were written for a people living in a certain time. They are essentially laws pertaining to survival and avoidance of idol worship. Some are applicable to modern Christianity, some are not. Thankfully, those that are applicable were shown to be such!

When Christ came he made it clear that we to follow only this:

"Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from FORNICATION, and from things strangled, and from blood. "

We are bound of course by the 10 commandments and the Golden Rule, but this covers the "two yarn" question.

So why do so many Christians quote Leviticus when pointing out that homosexuality is a sin??

Dan,

How exactly could I force someone into my faith? One can hardly kidnap a heart. I think we might be opperating under different connotations.

And also, why bother keeping it in the Bible if it no longer applies? And why did "God" change his mind and revoke those rules?

Mars,

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http://www.hottopic.com/hottopic/store/product.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302028484&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442139591&bmUID=1176954816468

Hi ya'll. Mars, I do not believe God wants us to live in ignorance. Job 34:4 "Let us discern for ourselves what is right; let us learn together what is good.?

Dang, that through off the layout of this page... My goodness...

And it was suppose to say: "I

Lauren, in the Bible Dictionary defines fornication as adultery and idol worship, not having sex:

Fornication

in every form of it was sternly condemned by the Mosaic law (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20, 21, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16). (See ADULTERY.) But this word is more frequently used in a symbolical than in its ordinary sense. It frequently means a forsaking of God or a following after idols (Isa. 1:2; Jer. 2:20; Ezek. 16; Hos. 1:2; 2:1-5; Jer. 3:8,9).

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Danielle,

Probably because it's well known. I honestly don't know why Roman's isn't quoted more often. I suppose it is because most non-Christians aren't aware it exists.

Huh... It won't post my sentence weird...

Constantina~
Im with Valerie, really pretty name!

Whether or not the girl was a Christian is not specifically addressed by any of the quotes HisMan has given; he himself is the only person who said she was, unless I missed something. I was pointing out to Daniell why I believe a Christian would have a problem with this assignment. I personally have a number of gay and bisexual friends and love them dearly; however, I would not participate in this assignment because it is in direct opposition to my personal faith. I think that making a judgment about a person such as saying they are prejudiced against homosexuality when you know so little of their situation is very rash. It is just as bad as someone mislabeling you because of your sexual preferences. She lives in a country where she has just as much right to be straight and proud as you do to be bisexual.

I have already said this repeatedly on this blog, but apparently it isnt making it thru. *Being exposed to material that is opposed to your morals is one thing; being forced to participate in something that you disagree with is unacceptable.*
Doctors are not forced to give abortions against their ethics; pharmacists can refuse to fill a prescription provided that they refer the patient to another pharmacy. It only stands to reason that a student would be afforded the same courtesy as her professional elders.

Lauren, the verses that you're refering to have also been poorly translated. The words for fornication and homosexuality/sexual immorality are three different words, and there is no English equivalent. No one knows what it means. There have been several different proposed translations: fornicators and homosexuals are two of them, yes. But recently Biblical scholars have proposed the idea that, as the New Testament is written in the Roman time, the writers were referring to pedastry, the idea of a young boy preforming sexual favors for an older mentor.

But it doesn't matter. So they're just trying to act like they know what they're talking about when they really don't. Condemning people when they don't even know their own religion.

haha Danielle, that amuses me greatly, especially since I know what you want your sentance to say

Prior to "adultery in one's heart" one could not committ adultery WITHOUT sex.

So considering all the wild crazy sex going on in what was it? Sodom? Gomora? Never remember which ones the place. Wouldn't there have been pregnant woman?? Didn't God say that their were no innocent people in that town so he wiped it out? Does that mean that God himself doesn't even consider a fetus a child?

Yeah Danielle, it seems to hate you

You force it on others by repeatedly a saying theyll be going to hell or something similar.

Or that they are turning from God, etc

Not to mention trying to make the government endorse it (I know none of this applies to everyone or even you, just how it could be done IMO)

its essentially trying to blackmail them into faith. I can understand maybe saying once "I think you're sinning and according to my beliefs, you could go to hell". As Ive said, what they do next is up to them, and is between them and God

Dan,

Yes everyone sins, however, a Christian is engaged in the battle agasint sin. It's not what he he or she wants to do.

Others that sin want to, encourgae others to, and see nothing wrong with it, like pro-deathers.

There's a huge difference.

Leviticus 25:36-43

"Do not exact interest from your countryman either in money or in kind, but out of fear of God let him live with you. You are to lend him neither money at interest nor food at a profit. I, the Lord, am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.
When, then, your countryman becomes so impoverished beside you that he sells you his services, do not make him work as a slave. Rather, let him be like a hired servant or like your tenant, working with you until the jubilee year, when he together with his children, shall be released from your service, and return to his kindred and to the property of his ancestors. Since those whom I brought out of the land of Egypt are servants of mine, they shall not be sold as slaves to any man. Do not lord it over them harshly, but stand in fear of your God."

If I am remembering correctly. God's people were Jews. Jews were constantly slaves. God didn't want them to be slaves so he saved them from Egypt. This passage is what is written exactly before the one mentioned in Danielles (which she didn't write, just under her name) post. So, it says you can own slaves (which was acceptable back then, just as eugenetics was exceptable when Margaret Sanger was in the birth control league) but you must treat them with respect.

hmm... once again, read the bible as a whole, and not just verse for verse and you might actually learn something.

Just food for thought.....

Danielle, It is true that the translation has no eqivallent, but if we look further into scripture it becomse clear that God disapproves of homosexuality.

Romans 1:26 has been mentioned already. There is no translation loop hole for the entire passage.

:-O! Valerie quoted Leviticus!!!!!! I thought it was null and voided by Jesus.

See His Man, I disagree with you saying "prodeathers"

(who wants people to die? I mean seriously, thats a ridiculous title to give ANYBODY unless they want all of humanity wiped out)

encourage other people to sin. IO certainly dont. I tell people when I think what they're doing is wrong, but ultimately it is up to that person what they do, and then it is between them and God

"Cammeron, you've read Genesis havn't you?
Man was made in God's image. Man fell from Grace and into Sin. We are made in the image of the fallen Man. See: Adam and Eve, Forbidden Fruit, Seth."

Not since I converted to Hindu. Chrishna, the true earthly manifestation of Rama, takes on mans form as the avatar, but did not create man in his most immense image.

danielle if you were putting a sorry my bf took the computer away for a bit

As for God "changing his mind"

Christ's coming represented a huge paradigm shift.

Prior to Christ it was "stay away from the unclean, guard yourself, isolate!" It had to be this way because while the Law protected the people, its scope was limited by humanity. Thus, any "human" influence needed to be kept at bay.

When Christ came He changed everything. He fulfilled the Law. Instead of shying away from the unclean, His people could go out and make it clean! Instead of being contaminated by sin, they could overcome. Because of this, the intense separatism was no longer necessary.

Mars,

*confused*

Well, I'm glad I could clear up that misconception about the Christian origin of man for you Cammeron.

you were trying to post a sentence earlier...were you perhaps trying to make a heart?

Lauren, I believe I'm the one who you are addressing. This passage seems to refer to bisexuals: "Women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men..." This also could refer to temple prostitution.

Samantha, I'm not disputing that she shouldn't have had to act like a lesbian if she didn't want to. but that doesn't give her the right not to complete the assignment and get away with it. Infact I offered alternatives that she could have taken if I were in her position.

As for the letter thing, that's just stupid. She didn't have to send the Letter, just write it and hand it in for a mark, the professor can't force her to mail something. I could see why the school would be upset if she refused to do an assignment, especially if it was an important one. Even if she didn't agree with the point, learning to argue the other side of an issue is important too, even if you don't believe it. I'm pro-choice, but I could give you an Anti-Choice arguement. That doesn't make me anyless pro-choice, just a little more intellegent and well equiped to argue the side that I believe in

Mars,

Yeah! I was trying to say "I (heart) this tshirt. I think you'll like it too!"

OK JK, AOK?

Here's what you said,"A girl at my college wrote an editorial about her outrage that she had to visit a Hustler store as part of an assignment for a Women's Studies class. My feelings-get over it- you signed up for this class on your own, you knew if was a Women's Studies class that would fall on the liberal side of the spectrum, you undoubtedly received a syllabus at the beginning of the semester detailing that you would have to complete this assignment, you could have dropped the class then and there but you didn't, so you have no one to blame but yourself for your "woes""

"My feelings", i.e., what you believe, i.e., your religion, is telling Ms. Brooker to just get over it and then what to do and a justifiation for why she should just get over it. That's the point. What was being done to her violated her conscience.

Your statement was pushing your bad religion on her.

Is that clear enough for you?

Danielle, it is not "Null and Void"

All the Mosaic writings have increadible value. Just because we are no longer called to follow all Mosaic Law does not make it invalid. There is much truth to be learned regarding God's character and His people. The exposition of God's character shows us His law that governs all believers.

as for Romans post earlier, you must also keep in mind Paul thought women should wear veils, not speak, and be submissive to man. We follow none of those beliefs today, why should homosexuality be any different?

Also, with 1:26, it is for those going against their natural selves, ie heterosexual males having sex with other males, but if one were naturally homosexual, it is not a sin

Professors put everything on a syllabus (at least all of mine here do). She most likely would have known about this project from day one and could have said something then. She could have dropped it, or tried to over load into a different course. Instead she did nothing.

yeah you can't make hearts it wont post anything after the what was the shirt

Less, I like your research on that verse better, lol

Danielle -

I quoted leviticus because Catholics do not allow ignorance to take over. We study everything. Including other religions.

The Old Testament is very confusing and some parts don't make sense. It was said that the savior would come and put it all together for us. If you read the Old and the New together it actually becomes very clear what is being said. That is why Catholics read chapters from both texts at every mass. We read the ones that compliment each other and explain everything as a whole.

This is why Lauren explained that Jesus made it all clear. Like I've said 9,412 times, you can't just read the bible verse for verse, it must be read together. Once you read something in the right way, viola, it makes sense.

Sorry Less, I lost track of the names

As for Romans, I meant to quote both 26 and 27

The full passage reads as follows:

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet

Dan, just because some Christians do not follow Paul's teaching does not mean that it is without merit.

oh and by the way anything in Romans isn't god's word it's Paul's word. and Paul wrote all sorts of crazy stuff

Romans 14:2 "Some people choose to eat anything, while the weak eat only vegetables"

Using Lauren's logic, God is also against vegetarians

If they hold so much value then why did you say that the Leviticus laws weren't relevant??

Lauren, I have also read passages where it is said that the part written about the women is actually about beastiality and that the punctuation of the text makes it that the same is to go for men, not men having sex with men,

though I have to research that, because I read it FOREVER ago

Hahaha, stoning misbehaving children makes sense?? Bwahahahaha!!

Constentina, ALL the epistles are the inspired word of God and thus God's Word.

Roman's 14 is not God being "against vegetarians" it is refering to not exploiting others stumbling points. It is saying that if you are a vegetarian, I should not consume meat in your presence if doing so would cause you to fall away from God.

Seriously. I'm out now.

lol I'm sorry... But I have to say Happy b-day to me!!! (I'm shameless!) lol

And Lauren, what Christians force women to wear veils in public? Or say that the women should have no positions of power?

Sure in catholicism they cannot be priests, but aside from that you dont hear them saying they shouldnt be teachers or community leaders because of their sex

well, im off, I have to wake up in like 6 and a half hours to visit a college, so I'll see you all tomorrow..maybe

The fulfilment of Law hardly makes It irrelelevant.

Night Dan :-)

Several Christian churches require standards from both sexes and do not allow women to lead men.

Internationally, it is almost unknown for a woman to enter into Church without a head covering. Indeed, such was the case in our country until the last 50 years. Where do you think Sunday Hats came from?

Lauren, sorry, unless you're wearing a veil and silent in church, you can't really lecture about keeping the entire Bible holy. Don't pick and choose.

And I read the entire verse, and my interpertation still stands. I've read entire scholarly papers upon this subject, and preciously few translate it as a condemnation of homosexuality.

Dan, covering the head applies only to prayer.

Danielle - Good night, Have a good one.

Emily - Happy Birthday! Please don't ask us to sing... that might be a bit too scary.

Dan - You know I have to say it....can't help it... Women aren't Priest.... and Men aren't Nun's. ;-)

Good night to all....

The Valerie bashing will have to resume at another time...

Lauren and Constentina - Remember, you are both Christians and the bible is taking differently to different faiths and different people. Good night to both of you...

* smooches all around *

And Goodnight HisMan!

Did I get everyone?

Ya I'm leaving too, Sleep and all that.

Moral of the story:

this is an abortion website, I come here to argue with you about abortion not whether or not I'm going to hell because I'm gay

Hopefull the next blog will be an Anti-Choice one, not an Anti-Gay one

I feel quite convicted about covering my head during prayer and I have never spoken aloud during a service.

I am Pentecostal. We're pretty serious about this stuff ;)

Goodnight everyone who's off to bed!

Less- I find it quite amusing that you site "scholarly articles" disbuting scripture. Not because I have any particular disdain for scholastics(quite the opposite), but because immedietly preceeding the verse is this:

Romans 1:22

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

From a Christian perspective, scriptual reading must be inspired from the Holy Ghost to derive Truth. Generally academia has little room for devine intervention.

Dan,

Right on...I think we're making some inroads here.

You see, abortion extrapolated to its desired end results in.......the destruction of the species (same results from homosexuality too, another counterfeit).

What's amazing to me is that you who would allow for a choice to be made regarding the fate of a human being in the womb that may result in its death, somehow cannot see that as being for death.

If I believed that theft was wrong, i.e., I was against theft, but at the same time thought it was the right of another to steal, I would be pro-theft simply because I was not against theft. You cannot be for something and against something at the same time.

Jesus said that a house divided against itself cannot stand in response to the Pharisees' claims that He healed and cast out demons by the power of the devil. Well, why would satan cast out satan? Why would Jesus, if He represented satan, do the very things against satan, that satan desired; death, theft, and destruction? You know what Jesus did, He healed, raised the dead, cast out evil spirits, etc.? Jesu was definitely pro-life, no question.

So seeing the logic of this, pro-deathers then go the next step and say well it's not murder: Why? Because it's not a baby. Why? Because life doesn't begin at conception. Why? Because there is no God...ad infinitum. It's a slippery slope especially for someone who calls himself a Christian.

Is this pro-abortion thing a syndrome or something or just the manifestation of an evil spirit? I can't beleive the branding. It's like eating a Big Mac.

Even though all you pro-deathers have different names it's like I'm talking to the same mindless person.

Dan if you are truly a Christian, you should carefully re-examine your position as I am really concerned about you. However, if you're not truly a Christian and are using that as a cover, please get together with the other pro-deathers that blog on this site and try a new tact in your attempts to discredit the truth. I can see through the scheme, it's obvious, and it's not working.

Lauren,

Finally, a breath of fresh air.

It's tiring, I know, however, God's truth does not return void and will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent.

Can you help me and the rest of us, Jill, MK, Valerie, John and Bethany, in the battle (and where's Jasper)? I hope so, the stakes are enormous.

Valerie, MK, Bethany, you all did a great job at posting today. The competence of the indiviudals in the pro-life movement is demonstrated by your unique talents and faithfulness. Today was a milestone, howewer, we must not forget that the most dangerous time is the day after a victory. We must not give up, we must press on. The enemy will not relent, we must multiply our efforts. The Bible says that one can put a thousand to flight but two, ten thousand. Together with Jill and all the other pro-lifers, we will make an impact.

I can hear satan's shrill screams as he runs from the sword of the spirit. Speak it, proclaim it, live it.

Remember, pro-deathers have no say in the matter, it's up to the church, the body of Christ, to turn this around.

God Bless you all.

Danielle,

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Notice the word, "All".

Actually, Lauren, most of these scholars are very religious men and women who have committed to study the Bible out of their intense devotion.

I always remembered the sin that Jesus stood against so strongly was self-righteousness.

Cameron,

Wouldn't make you do anything.

However, I will always try to tell you the truth.

So, if you can't handle the truth, walk away.

Hey PiP:

You're right.

He would have stood totally against those who thought it was their self right to determine the fate of an innocent human being in the womb.

In fact here's what He said in Mark 10:13-14: People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Hey PiP:

You're right.

He would have stood totally against those who thought it was their self right to determine the fate of an innocent human being in the womb.

In fact here's what He said in Mark 10:13-14: People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Very good, HisMan. But while I realize that you have a very valid point, we must not be blind to the self-righteousness in our own Christian community. Recently I became fed up with the self-righteousness present in my church leaders, but they can't destroy my faith (loved Lewis' interpretation of this via the Screwtape Letters). And I am still trying to reconcile both the principle of humility as a flawed human being in the presence of Christ while the command to condemn the sin of others despite being a sinner (something Christ seemed to stand against--in the form of the Pharisees)..modern-day Pharisees are no different. Your thoughts on the subject?

I'm not trying to point fingers here, just a general statement. His Man, I will reflect on your comment some more.

"If I believed that theft was wrong, i.e., I was against theft, but at the same time thought it was the right of another to steal, I would be pro-theft simply because I was not against theft. You cannot be for something and against something at the same time."

You can, however, see the act of stealing justified under certain circumstances. Stealing a Rolex? Bad. Stealing bread because your children a starving? Not good, but understandable. You can't generalize and say it's bad everytime without regard to the situation that lead to it.

Dan, I read your post where you asked about what denomination holds women to the standards of Paul... I dont know much about Catholicism, but I do know that in some Southern Baptist churches, women are not allowed to be deacons, pastors, church elders, or ever pray in a setting in which a man could alternately do it. The women hold the role in the church of being Sunday School teachers, treasurers, pianists, etc. And I believe that verse you are referring to from the Pauline letters actually says that women DONT have to wear a veil because long hair is a covering for the head.

PS Dan the verses I was thinking of are I Cor 11: 5-15 but specifically 15.

Danielle, I read your post from last night about how the OT is irrelevant post-Jesus and so on. My perspective on that thought is this: the OT is a history of God's people and will never be irrelevant. The laws that God gave Moses were for a people who had just escaped generations of slavery by a culture that God considered abhorrent. It was necessary to give them explicit rules by which to govern themselves if they were to be the chosen people, but it was also necessary to meet them halfway. If you go into a tribe of cannibals and tell them that your God told you that if they dont stop eating people they will burn in hell, they are going to take one look at you and think, "Mmm. Lunch." Without giving a second thought to hell. You have to work with what you have got and build on that to reach where you want to go.

The NT was much more progressive--women are to be treated with respect and love, not beaten and sold and raped. Again, Jesus had to meet the people halfway. If He had come in there and said that all male priviledges were revoked and the culture was now femicentric, they would have laughed Him out of town without giving Him a chance to make His main point. I have no doubt that if Jesus came back today, He would have to meet our culture where it is, as well.

"Feelings" are not the same as "religion", HisMan. Feelings are a particular viewpoint that you hold for example "I feel that Coke is better than Pepsi" This doesn't mean that my religion is Cokeology or anything like that. A religion is basically the rules that you have to follow when you are grouped with others that believe in the same deity that you do.

But I can understand how you would misconstrue the words "feelings" and "religion" because you also believe the words "womb" and "bosom" to be the same thing.

And my comments were not directly aimed at the Missouri girl, but at the girl at my college, who was being incredibly whiny about just having to visit a Hustler store.

JK -

Off topic, sort of. But this has been bothering me all night.

What does going to a hustler store have anything to do with Women's studies?

I know you didn't write the curriculum, but you said that she knew it was a women's studies class and should have known. Now, I would not known that somehow a hustler store is related.

I'm not being sarcastic and rude. I just can't figure this out.

Valerie,

I think the assignment had something to do with how women are sometimes seen merely as sex objects in society. One of my friends took the same class I believe and I think she told me that they had a couple different options about where to go for this assignment, one was a strip club, something else that I can't think of at the moment, and a porn store (the Hustler store being the least dodgy of porn stores in town, that's why I used it in my post).

The reason I said that she should have known is because you are always given a syllabus at the very beginning of the semester that will usually detail the assignments to be completed. The girl I was speaking of was not a Women's Studies major, so she was free to drop the class when she first found out about the assignment because she was uncomfortable with it or it went against her beliefs.

I don't know if it was said for which class that the girl from Missouri was required to write the letter and or act like a lesbian. If it was a common University Studies class that all students must take, then it was out of line for the professor to require students to complete an assignment that was against their personal beliefs.

Pip,

I always remembered the sin that Jesus stood against so strongly was self-righteousness.

Noun 1. righteousness - adhering to moral principles
rectitude, uprightness - uprightness as a consequence of being honorable and honest
piety, piousness - righteousness by virtue of being pious
morality - concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
justice, justness - the quality of being just or fair
honorableness, honourableness - the quality of deserving honor or respect; characterized by honor
honor, honour - the quality of being honorable and having a good name; "a man of honor"
honestness, honesty - the quality of being honest
unrighteousness - failure to adhere to moral principles; "forgave us our sins and cleansed us of all unrighteousness"

The adjective self-righteous has one meaning:

Meaning #1: excessively or hypocritically pious
Synonyms: holier-than-thou, pietistic, pietistical, pharisaic, pharisaical, sanctimonious

There is a difference between being righteous and self righteous...

HisMan falls under the first category as he NEVER claims these to be his ideas, but rather gives the honor and glory to the One who deserves it.

His words may be harsh, but the point is that they are not really his words at all. They are His words.

Standing by and watching sin without speaking up is a sin itself. In our faith it is called the sin of omission. This is the sin where we neglect to do something that we should...as in speak up when we see evil.

mk

Q. 300. What is lust?

A. Lust is an excessive desire for the sinful pleasures forbidden by the Sixth Commandment.

Q. 301. What effect has lust on our souls?

A. Lust begets in our souls a distaste for holy things, a perverted conscience, a hatred for God, and it very frequently leads to a complete loss of faith.

Q. 295. Which are the chief sources of sin?

A. The chief sources of sin are seven: 1.Pride, Covetousness, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth, and they are commonly called capital sins.

Q. 317. What virtues are opposed to the seven capital sins?

A. Humility is opposed to pride; generosity to covetousness; chastity to lust; meekness to anger; temperance to gluttony; brotherly love to envy, and diligence to sloth.

Just thought I'd throw these out there....

I thought Avarice was one, greed for both money and power

6. Evil acts are only the external manifestation of internal sins. "For from the heart
_____ come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness,
_____ blasphemy." (Mt. 15:19)

7. The Gospel of St. Mark names additional internal sins. "adultery, greed, malice, _____ deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly." (Mk. 7:22)

FAILURE TO ACT BRINGS PUNISHMENT
___ In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was condemned for his failure to act justly, that is, he was condemned for his failure to do what he had the ability to do and did not do.

The Corporal Works of Mercy, of Matthew 25, present clear cases of condemnation for those who are not merciful, "Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me. And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

On judgement day is not Jesus apt to say, "When you did not defend the least of my brothers --the innocent unborn-- you did not defend me when it was just to do so." (NOTE: Jesus is innocent life and is of course the one exception. He had a special mission to accomplish in life which would not have succeeded if He had allowed Himself to be defended. Jesus Himself acknowledged that He was special, an exception (Mk. 14:7). He refused defense "that the Scriptures may be fulfilled" (Mk. 14:49). Regardless of the reason God lets evil occur (He always has a reason), those who do evil (or permit it) are accursed. (Mk. 14:21) Everyone is guilty who permits the innocent to be killed and sets guilty murderers free. (Mk. 15:7-15))

COWARDICE NOT ACCEPTABLE
___ Cowards are first to be mentioned for condemnation. Bishops and priests are not excluded from suffering these consequences.

___________"But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved,
____________murderers, the unchaste sorcerers, idol-worshipers,
____________and deceivers of every sort, their lot is the
____________burning pool of fire and sulfur,
____________which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

I thought the first to be condemned were those guilty of treason. Or is that just Dante's opinion?

JK -

okay -

But couldn't you just watch network TV and music video's to see how women are shown as sex objects?

Just a retoricle (Sp?) question. Not one to really answer unless you want to.

"'HisMan falls under the first category as he NEVER claims these to be his ideas, but rather gives the honor and glory to the One who deserves it."
I was not pointing fingers, i"m sorry if I gave that impression. I just wanted to point out that Jesus didn't focus on homosexuals as much as corruption in general.

I would like your knowledge to help me figure out, MK, how one can be humble and yet fight against sin at the same time. Isn't taking the moral high ground trying to elevate yourself above others? If you addressed this in your post, please point it out for me, I'm sorry I missed it.

PIP, for an example on how to be humble AND fight against sin, one need look no further than Christ.

Before any deciple was invited to walk with Him, He called them to repentance. He fought against the Sin of the world, yet remained humble in spirit.

One thing Christ did NOT do is back down from the Truth. He called sin "sin" and warned against it.

PIP,

In my church we believe in the true presence of Jesus Christ, not symbolically, but physically, in the Eucharist. (This is the communion wafer and the wine after it is consecrated.)

The celebration of mass is the greatest prayer that we have. So going to mass and receiving communion and spiritually/mentally placing the person who is "sinning" on the altar during the consecration will go a long way in letting God do most of the work.

We can also "adore" Him in this form in what is called an adoration chapel. Just sitting with Him, talking to Him and telling Him about the person. Again, letting God to the "dirty" work.

We also have the rosary, another very powerful prayer that walks through the life of Jesus earmarking all the important parts of his ministry.

So we begin with prayer. Then we add sacrifice. Fasting for the person, giving something up (my mom's favorite is chocolate), some little or not so little thing, offered up for the conversion of the "sinner".

After you have prayed and are well armed, I would also recommend confession, so that your soul is clean and temptation will be easier to resist.

Next, fill your heart with love for the person. Remember, that there but for the "grace" of God go you.

Okay, You're spiritually fed, well armed, your heart is filled with love and your soul is clean...

Now comes the hard part.

Look at the sin. Try to figure out why the person is doing it. Draw the person out. (Read up on the dangers that this particular sin leads to) Explain, patiently, why this is a sin. You might even have to explain what sin is first. Make sure the person understands that hell is not so much a punishment as it is a choice. Look in their eyes. Hold their hand. Be prepared to be rejected...because you will be.

But that's okay. Ultimately, the decision is theirs. You are just there to plant the seeds.
Sometimes you will see the seed blossom, sometimes you'll never know if your seed even took root. This is all right too. Trust God.

Sometimes, and this happens to me all the time, you will not see the fruits until years later. I remember talking to my sister-n-laws friend 10 years ago.
She was an atheist, her husband Jewish. We talked for a few hours and that was that. Until this Easter, when my sister in law told me that "Laura" was entering the Catholic church and had asked my sister in law to be her sponsor. I saw "Laura" this Easter and she told me that her journey began with that little conversation 10 years ago...

I might have thought that I had failed because she hadn't immediately dropped what she was doing and saw things "My Way". But I had learned that God is not usually so dramatic. Faith takes time. Baby steps. And the journey never ends. As strong as I am in my faith, I am still traveling.

I could recount numerous stories like the one above, but instead I will let you in on a secret.
Just to prove my point.

A month and a half ago, I joined this website. I met you girls. You entered my heart and I knew, just knew, that I was being called to invite you all home.

So I have spent hours at the adoration chapel. I devoted my entire Divine Mercy Sunday to you guys.
On Easter I implored Him to have mercy on you, and to soften your hearts. I fast every Wednesday, nothing but bread(okay, I cheat, I use butter), I have prayed for you at every mass I have been to and I have been to confession twice. I say a rosary everyday (always do that) but now I devote them to you guys...

Is it working? Ask Samantha. And here you are asking how to approach a sinner...

Only time will tell, but now it is in Gods hands, and yours.

You see, when HisMan says that we do this out of love, he means it. Whether you accept this love, or reject it as self righteousness, I can't control, but I can promise you that it comes from a pure heart.

I am not perfect. But God is. I just mention things to Him once in awhile and as Mary said at Cana, I "Do whatever He tells me to do..."

Hope this helps.
Don't tell anyone my secret.
They'd laugh and maybe even get mad.
It's entre nous, oui?

MK

Sí ;)

Another question though. I drifted away from the Catholic church because I strongly disagreed with some of their teachings (like birth control and homosexuality). Isn't it hypocritical to come back to the Church still disagreeing on those certain things and still be considered a Catholic? What I mean is, are these things really that important to be a Catholic?

PIP,

Well if you want to be in full communion with Her, then yes. However, you can still attend mass, sans communion, and you can talk to a priest about your concerns.

It is only hypocritical if you are like John Kerry and publicly claim to be a Catholic and dissent from Catholic teaching.

If someone asks and you say, I am exploring the Catholic church, or I am trying to find my way in the Catholic church, that is perfectly acceptable.

But truly, I think that if you read and read and read the reasoning behind why the church teaches against contraception and homosexual behavior you would come to understand. It's not about condemning anyone. It's about having a higher understanding of what God wants for you.

In the beginning, you might very well find yourself just going through the motions. That's okay too. More prayer. And more conversation with God. Study the saints.

I think part of the problem is that we see the world through such a small lens. Catholicism asks you to see it through a much wider lens. You have to forsake yourself. Truly put yourself away, and instead make your faith and others be the most important thing.

When Jesus gives us this paradox, He knows what He's talking about. He says you must die to live. We must become slaves to become free.

Okay, Lord, nothing like makin' no sense, huh?

Except, think about it. If you shelve yourself, you are able to step out of yourself. You start to see the world through new eyes. It stops being about what you want. You start to see what is best in the "bigger" picture. I call it taking off the temporal glasses and putting on the eternal ones.

If you become a slave to become free, you turn everything, everything that you have, that you are, that you hope to be, over to Him. And you let Him do what He needs to do.

Before you were born, He called you beloved daughter and He has a perfect plan for you. He has a vision of exactly how He would like you to live your life. What paths to take, what career to choose, your husband, even your pet mouse. If you choose a different path He'll still work with you. But if you search for the path that He has chosen for you...Oh my God, life just starts to fit together in a way that takes your breath away.

Little things, that just come together, big things that seem impossible...

The problem is that we so desperately want to do what God wants us to do and what He really wants is for us to receive what He wants to give us. Just let Him take the lead. All we need to do is cooperate with the plan...

But the absolute, positively first most crucial step you need to take, is to go to confession. Because if your soul is dirty, He cannot work through or with you. Serious sin has separated you guys. So you need to shine up that crystal (were you here when I gave the crystal analogy?) Even if you can't express complete remorse for all of your sins you can explain that to the priest. Get what graces you can.

Know this though. Satan is pissed off. He is so pissed off right now that you are even in the tiniest way contemplating thinking about maybe perhaps talking about God, that he is going throw every obstacle, barrier and temptation in your path. People that you haven't talked to in years will pop back into your life to try and distract you. Your boyfriend will pull away. Your friends will stop calling as much. You'll be tempted to rebel...This is why you need Graces. To be able to get through this sort of trial period. But HE will be there with you every step of the way.

My suggestion, is everyday for a week, simply say a Hail Mary. (I always send people to her first cuz she will lead you straight to Him but hold your hand when you meet Him...She is an awesome mother.) Just one Hail Mary, every day for a week, with the intention of gaining protection from outside influences and for the Grace to hear His voice. That's all. No big steps. Just one Hail Mary a day. Can you do that?

If you want my e-mail, you can get it from Bethany and we can always carry on more private conversations...

Answer this question.
What are the two most important times in a persons life?

I'll tell you the answer in the next post.

mk

The two most important times?
I think it's a personal thing, I'm sure looking back we can name the two most important times and they will all be different.

I can definately understand why the Church feels the way it does on BC, I just can't imagine teenagers climbing into bed not having safer sex..

On homosexuality I remember recently the Pope saying something to the effect of "we know that you all can't help being gay, we just don't think you are good enough to be a real Christian." It's an exaggeration but I can tell you my gay and lesbian friends can not help it one bit, they tried being straight but realized they were just pretending. How can you label that a sin?

We are not labeling the fact they have preferences for the same sex as a sin.

We are saying that the best, for them and for God, path that they can take is to forgo sex in this life. That's a hard road to take no doubt. And it can seem unbelievably unfair.

But again. Take off the temporal (what about me and what I want) glasses and put on the eternal (now why would God ask this of me, and how can I find it within myself to follow His plan) glasses.

There is a reason, whether it's the actual sacrifice, or where this particular type of life will lead them, but there is a plan and a reason. This would be the big Trust issue. Do you trust Him. Do you want to follow Him. He asked all of the apostles to give up their former lives too. He gave up His own.

Do you need to stop being friends with your gay friends. Absolutely not. Can you hang with them.
Absolutely. I would recommend it. They might not see it that way. But if you love them, you want whats best for them don't you?

If a doctor has a patient and he realizes that she has cancer, would the more merciful thing be to tell her and help her through some tough decisions, or not tell her because you don't want to hurt her? Which would hurt her more, in the long run?

The church isn't asking your friends to do anything she doesn't ask her own leaders to do.

Priests must remain celibate even tho their physical bodies might not see it that way.

You friends are being asked to enter into a higher form of marriage. Marriage directly to Jesus. In a way, His plan for them is way higher than His plan for us because He is asking them to sacrifice a great deal. How awesome. In a way they are teachers pet.

Even if they don't change their way of thinking you still don't have to "dump" them. That would be wrong. You just be who you are, let them be who they are, and PRAY...

The two most important times?

Now.

And at the hour of our death.

mk

But the church will not allow the government to allow homosexuals a lifelong partner. What if this couple stays abstinent but wants someone to spend their life with?

Then this wouldn't be a marriage. The church would probably frown on it only because the temptation to break their celibacy vows would be so great, but if they took celibacy vows and seriously kept them, then this would be no different than two roommates who loved each other on a deeper level.

The problem is that while some men and women may truly be born with homosexual tendencies, the danger is falling into an addiction to sex.

So many of the "gay" population have multiple partners and even those with a "favorite" are not always faithful. With the consent of the "favorite" partner.

I'm not saying that homosexuals are incapable of being monogamous or celibate, I am just saying that the nature of the beast tends to lead to a rather seedy lifestyle.

If your friends don't fall into this category that's awesome, but most do.

They also die younger, suffer more from depression and drug addictions. Not to mention all the diseases, the worst of which is HIV/AIDS. It's just not a good or healthy lifestyle. Which is why when God looks down at his "children" and sees them doing things that He knows are going to harm them in the long run, He cries. Not yells, and rants and points fingers. But weeps.

He says, but I had such great plans for you. Why won't you listen to me? Why won't you let me give you all the things I have stored up for you? Instead you are killing yourselves. I think it breaks His heart. I know it breaks mine.

It is not out of vindictiveness that the Church, speaking for Jesus, says: Please, stop. Think about what you are doing to yourself. There is a better way. We love you. Let us help.

The problem is, once you are mired in this lifestyle it begins to erode your conscience and you become unable to tell what is right and what is wrong anymore.

This is why that video is so insidious. Those are angels all right. But Satan has an army of angels too. And they would like nothing better than to chalk up one more soul for the Gipper. And when their lives are ruined, when they are dying, or sick, the "gipper/satan" will have a laugh fest. Because he doesn't care about your friends at all.
He only cares about sticking it to God, and if he has to use your friends or abortion doctors or scared mothers or misguides young women, then he will. And when his work is done, he'll leave all alone to deal with the consequences.

This is the real, the true face of choice. We are all pro-choice. We, on the pro-life side, just wish we could make everyone understand that the choices you make with temporal eyes may give you seemingly good and pleasurable consequences in the short run, but these choices seen with eternal glasses, well, the consequences are forever.

So you have to ask yourself. How much do you love your gay friends. Enough to save them from themselves. Or just enough to hold their hands while they go down.

mk

Valerie,
Yeah you could actually watch TV and learn some stuff. I never personally took the class, so I don't know the exact nature of the assignment, but I suppose you can get more "hands-on" information by actually visiting these places. I've never had a class where an assignment was to watch tv....although it would be nice lol

Most of my gay friends haven't had any more partners than my straight ones. Does that mean that those who have had multiple partners must stay celibate forever?

Which ones are you asking about. The gay or straight ones?

*Most of my gay friends haven't had any more partners than my straight ones. Does that mean my straight friends who have had multiple partners must stay celibate forever?

No, no ,no...

But the ideal situation would be to remain celibate until they find a partner that they are ready to commit to permanently...as in marriage.

And then "do it like rabbits!" No, I didn't mean that...

But sex between married people is a whole other conversation.

I have to go read to the kids now, I'll try to come back...

I have LOVED talking with you. It was so peaceful, no?

Thanks.

Mk

Even if you are a big fat stupid ugly dumb ftw beast...it just didn't feel right without all the name callling...lol :)

wait, what does being gay have to do with abortions? i am a little confused?