Rudy Giuliani has apparently decided if he can't placate pro-lifers, he will overthrow them.

The New York Times reported May 10 the Republican presidential candidate has decided to embrace his pro-abortion position after muddling it in recent days, trying to take a former-radical-liberal-now-thoughtful-liberal-yet-conservative-friendly stance.

Poll numbers falling, Giuliani has chucked all that and developed an abortion pride strategy based on "Tsunami Tuesday," the date many liberal states have bumped up their primary to, ahead of primaries of more conservative states. According to the Times:

Mr. Giuliani's campaign ... is eyeing a path to the nomination that would try to de-emphasize the early states in which abortion opponents wield a great deal of influence. Instead, they would focus on the so-called mega-primary of Feb. 5, in which voters in states like California, New York and New Jersey are likely to be more receptive to Mr. Giuliani's social views than voters in Iowa and South Carolina.

Giuliani is gambling he can win the nomination as the sole abortion enthusiast from a field of 10 with a minority of like-minded social liberals.

According to Time magazine, Giuliani has "decided that the reign of social conservatives is coming to an end. 'He understands that there are a lot of Republicans out there who are sick of everyone kowtowing to the single-issue extremists,' said one veteran Republican observer in Washington. 'He's breaking from the pack.'"

(Why does the mainstream media never question whether Democrat voters are getting sick of their party's extremists, like the entire lot of presidential candidates, all of whom support partial-birth abortion?)

The conservative response, via the Times...

Continue reading my column today, "Rudy's unholy jihad," on WorldNetDaily.com.

Rudy, you are one phony that isn't worthy of winning anything more than a booby prize.

Great article on Giuliani, who wants to ride to victory on opposing terrorism while he supports terrorizing millions of fetuses every year. Some consistency.

Great point Nick!!!

A good article. It is truly disgusting that the Republican party has sunk to the level of the Democrat party. The top tier candidates of both are like whitened sepulchres filled with dead mens bones. The drive toward Civil War II continues.

If it came to two pro-abortion politicians, I would NOT look at the other issues to cast a vote for Giuliani. The arrogant way of pushing the pro-death agenda is enough to make me throw up. I will let the GOP know my position, I hope many others do too.

Consider:
The missing element in every human 'solution' is
an accurate definition of the creature.

The way we define 'human' determines our view of self,
others, relationships, institutions, life, and future. Many
problems in human experience are the result of false
and inaccurate definitions of humankind premised
in man-made religions and humanistic philosophies.

Human knowledge is a fraction of the whole universe.
The balance is a vast void of human ignorance. Human
reason cannot fully function in such a void; thus, the
intellect can rise no higher than the criteria by which it
perceives and measures values.

Humanism makes man his own standard of measure.
However, as with all measuring systems, a standard
must be greater than the value measured. Based on
preponderant ignorance and an egocentric carnal
nature, humanism demotes reason to the simpleton
task of excuse-making in behalf of the rule of appe-
tites, desires, feelings, emotions, and glands.

Because man, hobbled in an ego-centric predicament,
cannot invent criteria greater than himself, the humanist
lacks a predictive capability. Without instinct or trans-
cendent criteria, humanism cannot evaluate options with
foresight and vision for progression and survival. Lack-
ing foresight, man is blind to potential consequence and
is unwittingly committed to mediocrity, collectivism,
averages, and regression - and worse. Humanism is an
unworthy worship.

The void of human ignorance can easily be filled with
a functional faith while not-so-patiently awaiting the
foot-dragging growth of human knowledge and behav-
ior. Faith, initiated by the Creator and revealed and
validated in His Word, the Bible, brings a transcend-
ent standard to man the choice-maker. Other philo-
sophies and religions are man-made, humanism, and
thereby lack what only the Bible has:

1.Transcendent Criteria and
2.Fulfilled Prophetic Validation.

The vision of faith in God and His Word is survival
equipment for today and the future. Only the Creator,
who made us in His own image, is qualified to define
us accurately.

Human is earth's Choicemaker. Psalm 25:12 He is by
nature and nature's God a creature of Choice - and of
Criteria. Psalm 119:30,173 His unique and definitive
characteristic is, and of Right ought to be, the natural
foundation of his environments, institutions, and re-
spectful relations to his fellow-man. Thus, he is orien-
ted to a Freedom whose roots are in the Order of the
universe. selah

- from The HUMAN PARADIGM Joel 3;14 KJV

"If it came to two pro-abortion politicians, I would NOT look at the other issues to cast a vote for Giuliani. The arrogant way of pushing the pro-death agenda is enough to make me throw up. I will let the GOP know my position, I hope m..."

Who needs any more proof of the myopic extremism running the GOP? You certainly don't see liberals bailing on candidates based on one relatively minor issue.

Giuliani sucks!

"abortion enthusiast"

Okay, that is just ridiculous and it made me laugh. Did any of you listen to what he actually said or are you just blindly following whatever Another Pro-Lifer tells you?

He is against abortions. He ... is ... against ... abortions.

He is for women being able to make their own choice. He believes it to be a constitutional right--one he disagrees with--but he would not go against the Constitution just because he doesn't like it. It *is* the Constitution ... the backbone of American policy.

But. Rudy Giuliani is against abortions. Do your research, people.

Leah, Every time I have heard the media ask him about abortion, he has a way of avoiding the question. He is a flip flopper.

"He believes it to be a constitutional right--one he disagrees with--but he would not go against the Constitution just because he doesn't like it. It *is* the Constitution ... the backbone of American policy."

Whatever Giuliani believes, the fact of the matter is abortion is NOT a Constitutional right. And so what that he doesn't like or believe in abortions? If he is not willing to take a stand against something he doesn't believe should be happening, he is the last person we need in office.

Okay, that sounded a little jumbled. Actions speak louder than words is basically what I am trying to say. If he doesn't take action against abortion even though he says he doesn't like it, how is he going to lead our country? I don't like terrorism, but since the terrorists are exercising their freedom of choice I won't do anything about it??

SH, well put! One minute Giuliani was telling RTL's to "get over it." When it came to the abortion issue. Not even a week later, he rejoiced over the PBA ban. Yet another 2 weeks later he was back to supporting abortion. What'll it be Rudy? You can't have it both ways.

I hope Rudy does not get the nomination. He has to realize that he's not running in NYC anymore.

"It *is* the Constitution ... the backbone of American policy"

where in the constitution does it say (or imply)that Abortion is a right. This is a manufactured right by some activist judges

"But. Rudy Giuliani is against abortions. Do your research, people"

yes, do your research people!

I'm personaly against murder but I don't think the government should be telling me that I can't murder!! com'on people!

Ok, let me go ahead and apologize for this (I am sure I am going to anger some people, so *I am sorry*)

But isnt there other issues (besides abortion) that we (as a country) should be looking at first? Whats his stance on the eocnomy, the was in Iraq, does he have a plan to lower the country's debt, healthcare, taxes etc.? I am sorry, but I feel someone should look at all of those issues when voting for a President, not if he is pro-life or pro-choice. But that is my opinion.

(sorry once again)

Thanks Heather! He is definitely a flip-flopper like you said.

Jasper, I know, right? Funny how when you replace abortion with murder, the argument just kinda falls flat.

that should read replace the word abortion with murder . . .

I need some coffee. . .

Not to mention there are other forms of terrorisim that are affecting our country that are worse than abortions (once again, my opnion)

midnite, you do ask some good questions. I shall try to answer to the best of my ability. I guess I feel that if he will flip flop on the abortion issue, what else would he flip flop on? Can he be trusted?

"Whats his stance on the eocnomy, the was in Iraq, does he have a plan to lower the country's debt, healthcare, taxes etc.? "

who cares? most the Republicans are on the page when it comes to those issues.

But Rudy will be facilitating in the destruction of unborn babies. What issue could be more important?

Well that does make sense Heather. But has he flip floped any other issues, or just the abortion issue? I can see why someone would flip flop that one and avoid questions, I mean its a touchy subject for everyone in America. But I wont base my vote soley on his abortion stance. (I mean I voted for Bush and I am pro-choice).

Okay, I am back with coffee so maybe I will be better this time : ).

Hi Midnite. Personally the most important factor for me when I vote is the candidate's stance on abortion. There are other factors I look at (their views on illegal immigration for one) but abortion is definitely #1 for me.

jasper, I answered you on another post. Every time you ask me a question, it seems I log off before I see it. The baby is great, and it's a girl.

Jasper:

You said *most* Republicans, so therefore not all are like that. What are you going to do if it comes down to Giuliani or a Democrat? I mean the Democrat will think deifferntly than a Republican, but Democrats are normally for the *choice* of an abortion. Sounds like, to me, your putting all your eggs into one basket before you've counted them.

I agree with SH and jasper [ BTW drinking coffee too] Abortion is major in my book too.

SH:

That makes sense, and I respect your opinion on it. But what are y'all going to do if it comes down to Giuliani or a Democrat? Not vote?

I look at the abortion issue last when picking a candidate. I mean I think the other issues (some oh which I've already named above) are more important than abortion (but thats my opinion). I would rather a pro-life person get into office that is going to help this country in other ways than elect a pro-choice candidate that could possibly screw it up even more. Does that make sense?

"What are you going to do if it comes down to Giuliani or a Democrat?"

Giuliani, becuase he will at least appoint Judges like Roberts and Alito.

Ok, I am trying to understand, please help me.

Y'all say that abortion is a mjor issue.

Is it more important than the education system in the US?

"Does that make sense?"

I think so - you are saying that whether or not the candidate is pro-choice or pro-life is not the main factor for you, as long as they are going to be a bonus for the U.S. as a whole.

As for what I would do if both candidates were pro-choice (scary thought) I honestly don't know. I will praying that is not the case though!

Hmm, I thought appointments had to be oked by Conngress. And isnt Congress mainly Democrats now? That might not be the case Jasper.

minite, you did say that you have never had an abortion, but you had a friend that did. I have several friends that have had them. Some of them have had multiple abortions. It makes me angry. 4000 abortions a day. Why are we so irresponsible? A woman I know had 7 abortions. I asked her if she'd ever heard of a rubber. She admitted to not using any protection. When I asked her why? She replied "What for?" "If I get pregnant, I'll just go to the abortion clinic again." What am I to make of that?

"When I asked her why she replied "What for?" "If I get pregnant, I'll just go to the abortion clinic again." What am I to make of that?"

That really scares me too Heather. That total refusal to take responsibility for your actions. Wow.

Mid, I would have to say that to me abortion is definitely more important then the education system.

A lot of women use abortion as a means of BC. Another woman I know said that she'd had so many abortions, she "lost count."

I being pro-choice, have a *HUGE* problem when women abuse abortions and use them as a form of BC. That is not right, it's actually horrid. No I've never had one, and probably never will. My friend had one b/c of failed BC, she was on the patch BC, and her boyfriend used a condom. One of those freaky things.

And how could you think abortions are more important than the education system? If we focused all our time and energry on it, the education system would be in worse shape than it is now. Then we'd have all of the childrens getting a half-assed education. That just doesnt make sense to me.

SH, as a woman myself I have to ask, why are women turning into such slobs when it comes to their bodies? Isn't your body supposed to be your temple? Abortion has twisted this. They claim that abortion empowers women. How so???

Barbara Boxer (midnite): "Y'all say that abortion is a mjor issue.Is it more important than the education system in the US?"

Yes, we have to save the people before we can edjucate them.

Also, just to point out, my friend that had one is on a better BC now, her and her boyfriend broke up (had nothing to do with the abortion) and she is not promiscuous and since they broke up (seven months ago) she hasnt had sex.

Jasper, why are you calling me Barbra Boxer?

My name is Ashley in case you were wondering (all you had to do was ask)

midnite, That's real good to know.

Whats realy good to know? (is this a serisous comment or not)

To see an actual abortion in progress, go to 'The Choice Blues' warning.....very graphic!

And Jasper:

Yes, we have to save the people before we can edjucate them.

What about the people who are already here? Why should they suffer from a crappy education system?

midnite, I meant that sincerely... about your friend.

Heather: What is good to know exactly? I am sorry, I got confused with your previous statement. And I've seen an actualy abortion. Watched it in my Developmental Psych class.

Oh, ok. Ignore my last post then. My patience level is low, I need to work on that. Sorry!

"And how could you think abortions are more important than the education system? If we focused all our time and energy on it, the education system would be in worse shape than it is now. Then we'd have all of the children's getting a half-assed education. That just doesn't make sense to me."

Because abortion is the killing of an innocent human life. No other political issue takes priority over that for me. Not education, illegal immigration. Nothing.

As far as the state of our education system, I substitute taught for a few months and I know there are problems. But quality education does not take precedent over those unborn children who will not ever have a chance to experience that education in the first place.

Heather, I totally agree with what you said about women abusing their bodies by getting abortions. It is such a violent procedure to me, makes me cringe to even think about it.

Jasper:

Thanks (serisouly) for thinking I am smart enough to be a California Senator (really it means the world to me). But I dont agree with everything she does. For example, she is for gun control, I am not. I opose it (2nd Amendment is MY favorite next to the first). And next time you try to call me something condescending, *please* be a little more creative than that!

SH:

I dont know where you substituted at, but there are more than a "few" problems with our education system (not all schools, but most). Why should the living have to suffer through a bad education when people are out fighting for the unborn (I know this is where we disagree)? But I feel like you're giving more rights to the unborn than to those who are already living. And the living should have more rights (i.e. to a good education) that to poeple who are unborn.

Hey Midnite, I love the 2nd amendment too! But I'm a Texan so maybe that comes with the territory : ).

Maybe it's a southern thing? (Alabama here)

Procrastinatiiiinngggg..... =(

Don't want to study for Organic Chemistry. =( I hate school. Well, not really, but I am ready for summer to begin...and..for..summer school to start...pooh.

Something weird I learned in small group that I am confused about. God is sort of the same person as Jesus Christ?

I don't think unborn children have any rights, so that is why I fight for them.

And I suffered through some pretty poor education myself and have been pretty successful in life.

Mid, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here again. Protecting unborn babies from being killed will always be more important to me then our education system.

midnite, I'm not lookin for any fights today. Too tired. I meant that your friend's abstinence [for the time being] is probably a good thing. I have friends that have aborted too. They are still my friends. Each one of them broke up with the guy after their abortions. All I'm saying is, I don't agree with it. I never will. Watching the abortion procedure is awful. Watch The Silent Scream. Watch as the lady's body violently shake on the table. The Choice Blues is even worse! Not to mention the uterine scraping and violent suctioning. Ouch!!

Midnite,

I call you Barbara Boxer because you and her do not answer tough questions. (from the thread a couple days ago)

Heather:

I said sorry to asking you again (I'm in no mood for a fight today either)

Oh, ok. Ignore my last post then. My patience level is low, I need to work on that. Sorry!

Posted by: midnite678 at May 16, 2007 10:55 AM

And Jasper:

What are you talking about? What tough question have a dodged (and it must be important if you remember it from a couple of days ago). Ask again and I shall answer.

Stephanie - yes, Jesus Christ is God. It can be a confusing concept and I don't think I would be the best choice to explain it, but I can try if you have any questions about it.

Jasper, maybe you should explain this one?

No prob. Sometimes when we post and come back, there is a new message as I'm sure you know. I couldn't keep up with you.

Not a problem. I do need to work on my patience level though. Any ideas on how to do that?

Start drinking....LOL I'm only joking with you. I couldn't resist!

LOL, Heather!

Urgh, yeah drinking definitely doesnt help my patience problem (speaking of personal experience here). Maybe it's b/c I am an only child....

Stephanie, my preacher explains the Trinity like this:

To your mom, you are a daughter.
To your brother, you are a sister.
To your boyfriend, you are a girlfriend.

You are one person, but you have different personas.

Have you ever seen "Planet of the Apes?" Where those three guys are standing together and are so close...that's how God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are; inseperably close, distinct purposes, one being.

midnite,I really don't have the answer cuz I have the same problem.

Ok, I am off to work. Please respond, I'll be back shortly....

Samantha, awesome answer! : )

Jesus is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. "He is the word of God who is God who became flesh (man) and dwelt among us" (John 1:1-18). Jesus is the Son of God which means he is equal to God, he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. They are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit which have one divine nature because there is only one true God.

thanks, Jasper, well said as well.

St Patrick did a bang up job explaining the trinity to the druids. The shamrock was sacred to them, so he used it to explain this mysterious conundrum.

When Patrick reached down, picked up the shamrock and asked his hearers if it was one leaf or three, they replied, "It is both one and three." Patrick then concluded, "So it is with God." St. Patrick's use of the shamrock soon caught on and paved the way for other analogies to explain the Trinity, including the three stages of water and the three parts of an egg. Still, there has never been a crystal-clear answer to Christianity's most important doctrine and many today continue to accept it as hidden.

Though not a complete list, here is some other Scripture that shows God is one, in Trinity:

* "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deut. 6:4)

* "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." (Isa. 45:5)

* There is no God but one. (1Cor. 8:4)

* And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." (Matt. 3:16-17)

* "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)

* Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

* "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)

* "He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." (John 12:45)

* If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom. 8:9)

* "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 1:20)

* And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)

* [Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:16-17, 23)

He is for women being able to make their own choice. He believes it to be a constitutional right--one he disagrees with--but he would not go against the Constitution just because he doesn't like it. It *is* the Constitution ... the backbone of American policy.

And when slavery was legal, it was also a Constitutional right. So Rudy would have gotten up and said that even though he'd never own slaves himself, he's find and dandy with other people making the choice to own slaves.

We need a law granting Constitutional citizenship to the unborn. That would take care of the problem.

It also helps to look to Mary. She is the Daughter of God the father. She is the mother of God the Son. She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is in a spousal relationship with the "church". Mary is the human symbol of the church.

Again remembering, that while God is not a human and therefore neither a man nor a woman, He is male, the giver, much the way you would refer to some words as masculine or feminine in the French language.

Priests (male) marry the church (female) and become celibate because they are choosing a relationship that transcends sex. They are, in essence entering into a "sexual" union with the church. Nuns (female) marry Jesus (God the Son/Male) and enter into a transcendent "sexual" union with Him.

Keep in mind this is a spiritual sexual relationship and not a physical one (I can hear the titters all the way in Chicago...not to mention a few gasps).

I know I have said this before, but it really is a fitting response to the question of the trinity, as it brings home the importance of a relational quality of God and His people.

The male or masculine is the "giving" sex as is expressed by his anatomy. God gives.

The female or feminine is the "receptive" sex as is expressed by her anatomy.

The church is feminine and therefore receptive.
God is masculine and therefore giving.

This is why we get so weird about homosexuality. This is a case of natural law gone awry. A male (giver) is giving to another male (giver) and not a female (receiver).

Or why we are so horrified by abortion. God the giver has set it up so that when a union between a man and a woman takes place, it transcends the physical, enters into the spiritual, and we are given the opportunity to imitate the giver/receiver aspect of God. If we receive His gift, a new life is created. If we don't, then we have broken the bond, so powerful, between Him and us and in essence have thrown this gift (both of the new life, and the opportunity to "be like Him") back in his face.

While it may seem that we are prudish and hung up on sex, we actually hold in very high esteem. While we acknowledge that it can "feel" good, we also recognize that it is much, much more complicated than that.

So before you start calling us homophobes and haters, try to understand that there is deep reasoning behind what we believe.

And this is why we are able to love the homosexual, yet recoginize the grave error in the act itself...

Probably more than you were looking for, but there it is, for what it's worth!

I enjoyed your article. You ended it by writing, "But don't all moral relativists operate from a core of selfishness?"

I believe in this case, using the word, all, is appropriate and I applaud you for being so bold as to use it in this context.

Great article.

I've always thought people who say things like, "I'm personally opposed to abortion, but I think others should be free to choose..." were idiots, I have more respect for outspoken pro-choice people.

I think it's condescending and self-righteous for people like Rudy to essentially claim moral superiority to the rest of society. They might as well say, "I've risen to a level of morality that I know the average person can't achieve so it would be unfair for me to challenge them to be at my level."

Humble people who truly consider all people as equal, want their beliefs, whether we agree with them or not, to be held by everyone in society. In short, people like Rudy either think themselves better than others or they don't really believe what they are saying they believe.

Bill, you said: "They might as well say, 'I've risen to a level of morality that I know the average person can't achieve so it would be unfair for me to challenge them to be at my level.'"

That was a great thought, worth repeating. Thanks.

I could not agree with your commentary today more. My pro-life credentials are inviolate and unmovable – life begins at conception and must be protected at all costs under all circumstances without exception. I could no more vote for Rudy Giuliani than I could vote for Nancy Pelosi.

I am a textbook conservative on every issue imaginable: abortion, family, homosexuality, small government, fiscal responsibility, national security – you name it. But above and beyond all else I am pro-life.

Let me provide by way of illustration an analogy on my pro-life position. Suppose that Sam Brownback was running for President (!). Suppose also that Mr. Brownback supported EVERY SINGLE ONE of my positions to the last jot and tittle, except that he was pro-abortion. Suppose also that Barney Frank was running for President, and he and I were diametrically opposed on EVERY single issue there is (which, in truth, we are), except that he was pro-life (as I define “pro-life”). My vote would be for Barney Frank, holding my nose while I did it, but going there nonetheless.

I am of the opinion that I will be staying home next November. There is no one out there who can legitimately represent me who is also legitimately electable. I will likely make sure I vote for my congressman, but that is about it. It’s a shame, because we conservatives are far and away the majority in this country, but nobody in the power structure cares one whit about us.

The Republican Party lost in November because they ran away from the platform and abused their power. They behaved like Democrats. They deserved to lose.

In November 2008 there will be a Republican blood bath the likes of which have not been seen since Lyndon Johnson’s sweep in 1964. The Republicans will have a tiny little klatch of people in the Congress, fighting an overwhelming veto-proof radical left-wing majority along with Hillary and Barack (VP) in the White House. And the Republican Party has no one to blame but themselves because they are feckless, spineless, unprincipled, power hungry, and corrupt (see Jack Abramoff).

Mark it down. It’s going to happen. I fear for my country.

Frank, I would just disagree with you on one point. You said, "I am of the opinion that I will be staying home next November. There is no one out there who can legitimately represent me who is also legitimately electable."

If someone does run who is qualified, your vote might help make him/her legitimately electable.

Humble people who truly consider all people as equal, want their beliefs, whether we agree with them or not, to be held by everyone in society.

So humble people are actually incredibly arrogant, and want their personal beliefs to be held by everyone in society? That is highly confusing.

Lol, in response to Nick's post right at the beginning:

How in hell do you terrorize a fetus?

Oh I don't know, Ilana, maybe something like putting a suction device into the fetus's home, and pulling his arms and legs right off of him... you know, stuff like that ...

Bethany, you beat me to it. That was going to be my answer as well! Or how about puncturing his skull with scissors and allowing him to suffer great pain before tossing his body into a bucket.

Exactly, Heather...or how about filling the baby's home with saline solution, to cause the baby to burn to death slowly over a couple of days?

Or how about injecting the unborn child's heart with a poison that causes him to painfully die?

Bethany, It is hard for me to even repeat this story, but I will do it. I was reading about a saline abortion that didn't kill the child. I read that the filthy abortionist strangled the baby to finish her off. Sick? Beyond sick, twisted and deranged. Abortionists are not kind and caring people. Abortionists are murderers!

I remember reading about that, Heather. It is disgusting... and the person who reported about it also reported it had happened more than once, I believe.

I ask myself this question. How would I like any of the above things done to me? If you even have an ounce of a conscience, you wouldn't want these things done to anyone!! Someone has got to speak out for the unborn. They don't have a voice.

Oh they just say that the baby would never know it was dead anyway so it's okay. But if someone killed them in their sleep, or under anesthesia, would they ever know they were dead? Does that make murder of born people okay? Of course not.

Bethany, I think you will agree that it's the way they think. I have been to pro choice sites, and the men and women on there speak pure evil! The way they speak about the unborn is ruthless. It scares me to think that we have individuals that think this way wandering around in our society. They wander our streets. I hope I never cross paths with them. These same people will be very quick to praise an abortionist though.

I'm reading, quite aghast, some downright heretical analogies for the Trinity, above. Shame on my Catholoc brethren and cistern. ;-)

Analogies do NOT need to focus on "threeness." The mind-bender for people isn't a specific number, it's plurality. How can there be more than one divine person if Christianity is ostensibly monotheistic?

A non-heretical and useful analogy is available, though to date I'm the only person I know who's used it.

Consider humanity. How many persons would I need to introduce an alien to, in order for them to understand what humanity is all about? The answer is not one. There's no way -- no way -- that human history, culture, its generations, its aspirations, its fears, its hopes, its institutions, its very nature -- could be explained unless two were presented. Male and female.

Key point: you cannot sufficiently explain humanity without introducing two persons -- two very different instantiations of human nature. Both are fully human, each is an individual people, and each are very different. And their relationship with each other rounds out what it means to have a human nature.

So with God, divine nature, and the three persons of the Trinity.

"an individual people" -- gor, I'm illiterate.

;-)

The holy trinity: Mother, fetus, and abortionist.

More comments on this column are at Free Republic: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1834824/posts

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